Elon Musk’s Commitment To Only Pretending To Be Committed To Free Speech Still Stands
from the that's-not-free-speech dept
Elon Musk insisted that a key reason he took over Twitter was in support of “free speech.” As we noted, it was pretty clear that he never really understood what free speech actually means. Musk likes to say that his focus as the owner of Twitter has been to allow all legal speech, but as we’ve shown, Musk himself has been shown to have a transparently thin skin, and an unwillingness to take any kind of criticism. So, it was hardly a surprise that, even as he brought back serial fabulists and literal Nazis to the platform, he ramped up efforts to remove his critics — especially those in the media.
While there were reports that he had let those media accounts back on the site, that’s not actually the case. Most of the accounts were told that they needed to delete the “violating” tweet. CNN’s Donie O’Sullivan, who does not believe his account actually violates any rules, pulled a page from Musk’s playbook and took a poll on Mastodon to see if he should actually delete the tweet. The results were… pretty conclusive:

Then we have Steve Herman, from Voice of America, who was banned that same night as the purge of other journalists. He “appealed” his suspension, but notes on Mastodon that Twitter has rejected his appeal, saying his tweet that merely highlighted that the ElonJet account still existed on Facebook was against the company’s policy on posting “people’s private information without their express authorization or permission.” Herman’s tweet did exactly none of that. It told people where to go to find a different account that… also did not violate that policy. But, no matter, he’s still banned.

If you want to see the specific images he posted, they’re below:


Now, again, to be explicitly clear: Elon has every right to do this as the site owner. He can make whatever policies he wants, no matter how nonsensical they are. But at the very least, one would hope that people would begin to recognize that Musk making these arbitrary decisions based (apparently) solely on what makes him feel unsafe, is kind of a weak approximation of the previous regime seeking to moderate based on what would make the largest percentage of users feel safe.
And, it seems like a point you could argue that Twitter’s efforts to be as widely welcoming to users as possible did a lot more to support free speech than Elon’s efforts to kick journalists off because he had a shit fit and claimed they put his life in danger (which the facts simply do not support).
Filed Under: content moderation, donie o'sullivan, elon musk, free speech, steve herman, twitter
Companies: twitter


Comments on “Elon Musk’s Commitment To Only Pretending To Be Committed To Free Speech Still Stands”
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Ban Doxxers, Not Humorists
He understood that when a satire site got censored, that free speech was in jeopardy.
Re:
And he thought that banning people for upsetting him would alleviate that or something?
Re: Re:
Depends on your perspective and how you’re defining ‘censorship’.
To the likes of Koby and apparently Musk the problem has never been the ‘censorship’ of speech, rather it has always been about the fact that they’re not the ones with the power to do it. As soon as that changes all of a sudden ‘baseless censorship to silence the strongest opinions’ turns into ‘the right of a platform owner to moderate as they see fit and/or deal with disruptive users’.
Re: Re: Re:
And secondarily, it’s not about “censorship”, but about the TOS banning things like bigoted speech. As soon as they have the reins, they’re more than happy to let the bigots speak freely—and considering how they keep saying “conservatives have been silenced”, the implication is…well, you know the implication by now.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“Bigoted” is just a political decision. It can, has, and principally IS used as a label to declare one’s political enemies bad people.
The liberal position is basically that it should be illegal (yes, they’d pass a law on this if they could) to call a man a man and that’s frankly dumb as hell.
Yes, that is censorship. It’s censorship YOU LIKE (I find it abhorrent) but that doesn’t make it not censorship. Words have meanings, you can’t just invent them away.
Re: Re: Re:3
If it were illegal, it would then be censorship. But not for long, because we have this thing called the Constitution.
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Re: Re: Re:4
No, that’s actually incorrect. 1A bans censorship by government. It does not have to be done by the government to be censorship. The censorship done by twitter before was legal (when not directed by government) and the censorship done by Twitter/Musk now is too but it’s still censorship.
Re: Re: Re:5
But it does have to violate (or threaten to violate) someone’s civil rights—and Twitter choosing to ban people who spout bigoted speech does nothing of the sort. The bigots who get kicked off Twitter can go be bigots somewhere else. I again point you to Donald Trump as evidence.
Moderation is someone telling you that you broke the rules set by the people who run the property and showing you the door. Censorship would be if those people tried to keep you from saying what got you kicked out on anyone else’s property—including your own. Twitter can’t stop you from saying bigoted bullshit on any platform but Twitter, and that isn’t enough on its own to be censorship.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Firstly also incorrect: Moderation is a form of Censorship.
I would agree that Twitter censoring you from saying a man who wears a dress is still a man is not a 1A violation (unless directed by the government, which it was occasionally) Whether that is “bigoted” is in the eye of the beholder which is why making an argument off that term is dumb — ditto “hate speech”, these terms can mean whatever you want them to. But it’s all still censorship.
These words, they do not mean what you think they mean.
Censorship certainly does not mean “refusing to explain why you were censored” but it’s funny you bring that up cuz that sure happened a lot, too. Nor is them keeping you from saying it on some other platform (fucking how? Except several tech giants sure collaborated to kill off Parler in a weekend)
Re: Re: Re:7
And the watering down of “censorship” by conservative “thinkers” to mean anything they want it to mean continues…
You’re not owed an explanation of why you were kicked off a platform. Besides, if you broke the rules and got booted, you likely know what rule you broke to get booted.
Except that would be censorship, because they would be denying you the right to speak your mind on a platform other than theirs. Twitter can tell you “you can’t say that on our platform”, but Twitter can’t tell you “you won’t be saying that on any platform” and still be on the right side of the First Amendment.
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Re: Re: Re:8
It’s what the word means. You’re trying to make up a new definition for it.
Ask the ACLU: https://www.aclu.org/other/what-censorship
“Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are “offensive,” happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional”
I have NO IDEA HOW you think twitter could keep you from talking on some other platform (except again, Parler, but that wasn’t Twitter’s doing) but no that has nothing to do with the definition of “cesnorship”.
Read a fucken book. Start with the dictionary.
Re: Re: Re:9
Twitter has never done any of that to anyone. If a racist gets booted from Twitter, they’re free to post their racist bullshit anywhere else on the Internet without having Twitter impose any kind of political or moral values on them. Losing a spot on Twitter is no more censorship than being unable to post a flyer advertising an orgy inside your local supermarket.
That’s my whole point: Twitter can’t keep you from talking on some other platform, which means getting the boot from Twitter isn’t censorship because you’re still able to repeat on any other platform the speech that got you booted from Twitter.
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Re: Re: Re:10
What the FUCK are you talking about, you actual moron?
No, censorship is not “KEEPING YOU FROM SAYING IT ANYWHERE”. How would a private group censor then? Heck even the government can’t keep you from saying whatever from your jail cell. So what, it’s only censorship if the government kills you for it? Rips out your tongue?
That’s not what the word means, you stupid fuck. Yes, Twitter deleting your tweet is censorship. It’s what the word actually means.
I’m sorry you want it to mean something else. It does not.
Re: Re: Re:11
Censorship, moderation, and how they’re not the same thing. Try to keep up, Spanky.
Except that’s exactly what censorship is: an intentional attempt to suppress someone’s speech or expression by preventing it from being published/shared anywhere.
They can threaten you with legal consequences or even violence of some kind. Any threat is good enough if you think they can actually follow through with it and you stay quiet out of fear of those consequences.
But they can prevent a letter you write from making it outside prison walls. That would be censorship.
If I say something on Twitter that gets me booted and I can repeat that exact same speech on an entirely different platform, how have I been censored by Twitter?
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Re: Re: Re:12
[quote] If I say something on Twitter that gets me booted and I can repeat that exact same speech on an entirely different platform, how have I been censored by Twitter? [/quote]
Yes, clearly and unambiguously by the plain definition of the word.
Definition: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/censorship
One Cited example: Library board president Larry Walton says removing the books is censorship.
—Elaine Quijano, CBS News, 5 Oct. 2022
Did the library burn all copies of book? No. They removed the books from THEIR shelves.
Re: Re: Re:13
Yes, and removing a book from library shelves in that way can be seen as censorship because a government entity decided that people shouldn’t have access to certain information—especially people who lack the resources to access that information in other ways. Ergo, book bans are considered to be censorship.
How is that, in any way, the exact same thing as me being able to repost elsewhere the same speech that got me booted from Twitter, especially since Twitter can’t stop people from accessing my speech on a different platform?
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Re: Re: Re:14
Libraries don’t have to be the government, y’know. And they weren’t talking about a book ban.
But you just moved the goal posts, you are now proposing the definition is “Kept from saying anywhere” OR “By government.” Cute.
Neither is part of definition. Merely suppressing speech is censorship. Yes if twitter removes your tweet twitter has censored you.
The word does not mean what you want to pretend it does. Get fucked.
Re: Re: Re:15
Public libraries and libraries in public schools are government institutions, though.
That’s not really what I did, though. I know that it’s possible for a private entity to censor someone. But that isn’t what happens when Twitter kicks someone off the platform for violating TOS.
Censorship, at least in my view, is about any attempt—successful or not—to violate someone’s right to speak freely. In regards to book bans and the like, it’s also about a denial of access to information. That’s why I don’t see content moderation as censorship: Getting a post deleted from Twitter isn’t threatening anyone’s 1A rights and isn’t denying anyone access to the same content if it gets reposted (or was already posted) elsewhere.
And suppression, in this context, is defined by Merriam-Webster as “to keep from public knowledge, such as: to keep secret; to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of”. I can post something on Twitter and on another platform at the same time; if Twitter deletes my post from Twitter, the same content is still available on the other platform, which means Twitter couldn’t have suppressed it—which also means it couldn’t have possibly censored me.
I could say the same of your assertion. And as you cheapen the word by applying it to situations where the 1A rights of yourself and others are not in any actual peril, you make the word less meaningful when we hear about actual examples of censorship—like, say, Nintendo using copyright law to yank down a journalistic video about a decades-old game pitch that went nowhere.
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Re: Re: Re:16
I don’t care about “in your view”, I know what that is and it’s dumb. You don’t control the definition of the word. The word has a definition and it is not what you say it is.
If twitter deletes your tweet it certainly is “suppressing” it. It may not be “completely suppressing” it, but that’s also not what that word means.
Go ahead, find me a definition of censorship that says “obliterates these words from existence such that they cannot be found anywhere in any form”
I’ll wait.
Re: Re: Re:17
Neither do you.
No, it isn’t. I can repost the same content elsewhere and Twitter can’t do jack shit to stop me. How can Twitter possibly suppress my speech, such that Twitter is actively preventing me from exercising my 1A rights, only by deleting a single post that I can repost elsewhere?
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Re: Re: Re:18
Thank god I’m not trying. I have presented you several definitions that directly contradict what you are claiming.
I’m still waiting. Go ahead. Your turn to link hunt.
It’s not my fault you have a poor vocabulary.
Re: Re: Re:19
You are, however, trying to make me believe in an interpretation of “censorship” that I have consistently and continually refused to buy into. Same diff, from where I’m sitting.
You can wait all fucking night if you like, son, but I’m not doing your homework for you.
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Re: Re: Re:20
Except I DID do the homework. It says the opposite of what you’re saying.
Your “belief” on what the word means does not change what the word means. I mean it would if you were several million people. But you’re not, just the one.
The word does mean what you are claiming it means.
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Re: Re: Re:20
Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the speaker to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. The legality of the censorship is irrelevant.
When a large generic speech platform refuses to allow the Babylon Bee to satirize Dr. Levine or to allow plane tracker information, it is committing censorship even though the 1st Amendment allows it. When the government orders its public libraries not to stock books that describe gay sex in a positive light, it is committing censorship even though the government is allowed to speak for itself in the way it wishes. When Amazon refuses to sell When Harry Became Sally, it is committing censorship even though the book is available at Barnes & Noble.
Re: Re: Re:21
Except it isn’t.
If you can still get a hold of the book by other publicly available means, it’s not censorship, dingus.
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Re: Re: Re:22
That’s literally incorrect, “dingus”. Has nothing to do with the definition of “censorship” at all
Re: Re: Re:21
… said nobody literate, ever.
But mental competence is one thing Hyman Rosen is decidedly not known for.
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Re: Re: Re:22
well since he knows what the definition is and you don’t, I’d say he’s the literate one.
Re: Re: Re:3
What makes you a bigot is that you decide what somebody should be called, while non bigots let a person decide what they want to be called. Similarly non bigots judge a person for what they are, and not what color their skin is, the language they speak, or the religion they follow.
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Re: Re: Re:4
No, that’s not true. People call me “asshole”, no one ever asks if I self-identified as an asshole.
It turns out you do not, in fact, get to decide what people call you nor did anyone really expect that before it became one more political football.
Re: Re: Re:5
Well, when one constantly comes to the comments section and acts like a childish asshole, what better name to call that person than an asshole?
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Re: Re: Re:6
methinks you missed the point
Re: Re: Re:7
No, we got the point. Your problem? We know the one anti-trans joke people like you have and it stopped being funny the second time y’all told it.
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Re: Re: Re:8
the point is “No, you do not get to control what other people call you”
Sorry, be offended. I really don’t care nor should I have to.
Re: Re: Re:5
You come here on a daily basis to attack Mike, other Techdirt writers, and regular Techdirt commentators. You lob insults like grenades and continue to keep posting long after you’ve been made aware that you’re not welcome around here. You’ve openly admitted that you enjoy trying to hurt people/make people feel like shit only because of your political beliefs.
You shouldn’t have acted like an asshole if you didn’t want to be labelled as one.
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Re: Re: Re:6
“that you’re not welcome around here.”
I like him.
Re: Re: Re:7
You also like making rape jokes, so it’s not as if you’ve got good taste in anything.
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Re: Re: Re:8
All I hear is whining. Considering your soy boy outlook I literally don’t even believe you “a rape joke” was made.
Were you microagressed?
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Re: Re: Re:9
Oh no I’m bisexuals and its obvious to anyone like me that Stephan is a little cock sucker but closeted.
Re: Re: Re:10
Stephen has been open about his sexuality, so how is he in the closet?
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Re: Re: Re:11
why should ANYONE hear about his sexuality one way or the other on a blog discussing tech issues?
Re: Re: Re:12
Another good point that I forgot to mention. When I say he’s open about it, I mean that others bring it up, and he confirms it in response. Presumably, those others heard about it elsewhere or Stephen brought it up in a discussion about discrimination, which is a common topic on this blog as well. It’s not like he brings it up out of nowhere.
Maybe you should ask Chozen why he keeps talking about his and Stephen’s sexuality. As you say, it’s irrelevant.
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Re: Re: Re:13
You seem to trying to make me responsible for the statements of someone just because they’re taking the same “side” as I am and no, that’s not how that works.
Re: Re: Re:14
Considering you keep using the same kind of language “conservatives” use, hate Mike for criticizing Elon Musk, and claim that Twitter is better as a toxic, white supremacist shithole…
I’m at a loss as to why people think you are a “conservative” at all.
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Re: Re: Re:15
No, I’m a conservative (conservative side of libertarian, really). What are you trying to make a point about, exactly? Nothing you said has anything to do with what I wrote
Re: Re: Re:14
No, that is entirely how it works. You make everyone else responsible for Biden.
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Re: Re: Re:15
I mean if you voted for him you are.
Re: Re: Re:14
I wasn’t. You replied to something I said in response to something Chozen said. Your reply fails as a rebuttal to anything I said; it actually strengthens my point. Pointing that out isn’t making you responsible for Chozen’s claims; indeed, I asked you to ask Chozen the exact same question you asked me because, on that specific issue, we appear to be on the same side.
That said, this was a case where you seemed to be trying to defend Chozen, not just be on the same side as him. When you defend someone’s statement against an accusation, the general rule is that you are taking on the burden of that statement unless you specifically state that you are only defending it on narrow grounds. That’s how discussions work.
Again, though, that’s not what I was trying to do.
Re: Re: Re:11 tell me why
Not to be unreasonably picky, but pray tell why we would care about Stephen and his sexuality? Is it preventing him from doing his job, or delaying me in accomplishing mine?
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Re: Re: Re:6
I do! And?
Did you think I was bothered by SJWs calling me an asshole? Awww, adorable.
Again, you missed the point.
Re: Re: Re:7
Well, you did complain about it, so… 🤔
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Re: Re: Re:8
Reading comp is not your strong suit, eh? I was making a joke about it.
Re: Re: Re:9
And you continue to be bothered by it…
Re: Re: Re:7
“Soy boy” and “SJW”… 2014 GamerGate called — it wants its lazy cliches back.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Sarkeesian was in the wrong, Sargon in the right. Glad we got that covered.
Re: Re: Re:9 How many restraining orders against you are there?
Of course you would think the harassers were in the right.
Re: Re: Re:5
To the contrary –
Every comment you have ever made identifies yourself as an asshole.
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Re: Re: Re:6
You’re only the 5th person to make that joke and it was dumb and missed the point the first time. Fuck liberals are dumb.
Re: Re: Re:7
And unlike your one trans joke, it keeps gettin’ funnier every time.
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Re: Re: Re:8
I didn’t make any trans joke. Are you confused?
Re: Re: Re:5
Ah, the classic One Joke.
Maybe if you had a second brain cell, you could come up with another…
Re: Re: Re:5
Noone needs to cause all the bs you spew speaks volumes, ya dumb fuck!
Re: Re: Re:2
Honestly, and not to fellow-travel with the idiot over there, but it is a valid construction to say prohibiting speech by entities other than the government is censorship, within the ambit of what they can reach.
The insistence that only a government can censor is not well-based.
The thing is, not all censorship is bad.
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Re: Re: Re:3
That’s fine. You can argue for certain censorship if you want. Just don’t pretend it isn’t.
Re: Re: Re:4
Moderation is not Censorship, but SLAPP suites by the likes of Devin Nunes is. Moderation is you can’t say that here; while censorship is you can’t say that anywhere, and I will use force (the courts) to stop you..
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Re: Re: Re:5
No, that’s not definition. Where do guys come up with this shit? Is there a secret alt-dictionary that lefties agree to use?
It’s all censorship, which is just suppressing speech. You can argue some censorship is good, if you like (I usually don’t think so) but it’s still censorship. Censorship comes in different degrees, you can have a little or a lot.
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Re: Re: Re:6 Cult
You have to understand that his place is a cult. If Mike says it his followers believe it without question. You can show them definitions from online law dictionaries. They will not care.
Mike their lord and savior said it so it has to be true. I’ve seen Mike here complaining when judges and attorney’s use the word censorship because he says ‘its moderation’ although in a legal sense “moderation” means something entirely different.
Outside of Mike’s cult the issue is simple. It’s censorship it has always been censorship but back in the day who wanted to be called the forum censor? So the term moderator and moderation was invented. But in reality it has always been the censor and censorship.
Re: Re: Re:7
“Invented”?! You just can’t stop coming up with stupid lies, can you? Did you even manage to finish school?
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Re: Re: Re:8
all words are invented
Re: Re: Re:9
There are very few words that are invented. Words change over time, they are borrowed, mangled and otherwise change meaning – but they are very very seldom invented.
Moderation has had the same meaning for centuries, saying it was invented in the context of regulating speech online is a bald faced lie made by someone with a weak intellect.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Absolutely not you fucking child. In the context Mike likes to use it did not exist prior to forum moderators and forum moderation its an invention of the internet.
Re: Re: Re:11
From Wikipedia Discussion moderator
There you go an example of moderator and forum moderation from several centuries ago.
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Re: Re: Re:12
Moderator as used in a debate is is not at all equiliviant to social media. How fucking stupid are you?
Re: Re: Re:13
It actually is, since the role of a moderator on an Internet forum is generally equivalent to the role of a discussion moderator in meatspace. I mean, do you think someone created a whole-ass new definition of “moderator” when the term was first used on a networked discussion board, as if that person had never heard the word “moderator” before?
Re: Re: Re:13
So there are no debate or speech on social media then? Interesting.. Do you have any more ridiculous statements to make? Like describing the difference in moderating speech outside social media and how it differs from moderation on social media?
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Re: Re: Re:14
Where is Mike Wallace asking you and I questions you fucking stupid mother fucker?
Re: Re: Re:15
Bro just take your L. Or did you run out of space since you’re a fucking loser?
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Re: Re: Re:10
Even if it was a very long time ago someone invented it. Besides which, “moderation” as in applied to speech is indeed a very new term.
Doesn’t matter, moderation is a type of censorship. Suck it. Words have meanings.
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Re: Re: Re:11
It does show Mike’s pathology and the pathology of silicon valley. Mike believes that because the pin prick on a map uses the word in that way that all law dictionaries legal briefs, judges rulings have to be changed to adopt silicon valley’s new definition. It’s pure unadulterated narcissism made manifest.
Re: Re: Re:11
See Discussion moderator, public discussions and bebate have been moderated for a long time.
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Re: Re: Re:12
That’s actually relatively recent, and “invented”.
I don’t really care tho, moderation is definitely a form of censorship. (at least if it involves removing content or makes it harder to see/hear)
Re: Re: Re:13
You know what, call it whatever-the-fuck you want, Twitter still has every right in the country to give people like you the boot and to remove Tweets that are found to violate their T&C.
People of your ilk have historically changed the definition of words just to fit the narrative you want. See “woke” as an example.
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Re: Re: Re:14
Never said they didn’t (except for all that FBI nonsense).
You guys came up with the Woke thing and we have not changed the definition. We’re just laughing at you about how dumb it is.
Re: Re: Re:15
define woke
Re: Re: Re:13
No, it wasn’t invented or recent – it still has the same meaning as its Latin etymology – to regulate, mediate, restrain, temper etc.
Ask anyone who teaches English and they’ll laugh at you.
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Re: Re: Re:8
I said term not word. Again use a dictionary you fucking dumbass
Term – a word or expression that has a precise meaning in some uses or is peculiar to a science, art, profession, or subject.
Re: Re: Re:7
“You have to understand that his place is a cult>’
IKR Elmo fans are fucking weird.
Re: Re: Re:3
It’s valid to say private entities can censor. It isn’t valid, at least from where I’m sitting, to say “Twitter censors you if it deletes your posts/kicks you from the service”. That would be like saying a restaurant “censored” you when it kicked you out for yelling obscenities at other customers.
Privately owned open-to-the-public businesses have the right to make rules by which the public must abide if the public wants to make use of a business’s services. Those rules can’t run afoul of anti-discrimination laws, but other than that, they’re free to, say, kick people out for yelling racial slurs. I’ve seen no one cite any law or binding legal precedent that says the same logic doesn’t or shouldn’t apply to Twitter.
If anything, the government telling Twitter what speech it can or can’t host would be a 1A violation, since the First Amendment (and subsequent legal precedent) gives Twitter the right to choose what speech it will or won’t host. To argue otherwise is to argue against, at a bare minimum, the First Amendment’s protections for all kinds of entities to make those decisions for themselves.
Quote to me the exact statement where I specifically and explicitly said that the only entity capable of censoring anyone is the government.
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Re: Re: Re:4
You’re right. Private companies have the right to censor. No one has said any different. But it’s still censorship.
Ding ding ding! Tell Masnick, he doesn’t seem to realize. But why are you conflating 1A and whether something censorship? The government isn’t allowed to censor. But something can be censorship without violating the 1A, principally by not being directed by government.
Hilariously both the previous quote from this one comment indicate you are at best very confused on the subject. But multiple other comments you have made on this same post make clear you define censorship as “made to be unavailable anywhere at all”, like Twitter would have to not just kick you off twitter but FB and TikTok and smash your phone too. Which in addition to just not being the definition at all also makes it virtually impossible for a private entity to achieve your (completely made up) standard. Making censorship=government suppression of speech by a feat of default circular logic.
Thing is none of that is true: Twitter banning your account absolutely is censorship but it’s also legal and has nothing to do with the 1A unless government told them to do it…..which, oh, look! The did in many cases. But that’s a whole ‘nother topic.
Re: Re: Re:5
But it’s still censorship.
The problem isn’t that you’re being censored, snowflake. The problem is that like Chozen, you’re a fucking obtuse asshole that people don’t like to associate with. On top of that, once you know you’re not welcome, you continue to insist on your right to speak to people who don’t fucking like you. Assholes do that.
Listen, dipshit, and tell that fucktard Chozen while you’re at it – you’re assholes. That’s the problem. Here, Twitter, and probably everywhere you open your fucking mouths, all you do is whine about how you’re being censored. And you’re too goddamn fucking dense to realize that none of us give a shit about you, or your fucking complaints about Twitter.
None of this Twitter shit affected you in any way, yet you’re here bitching like you lost your trailer because of it.
Take some fucking Midol why don’t you? Pull your big boy pants up and quit crying like a baby. See a fucking therapist if you think the whole world’s out to get you.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls.
The 1st Amendment prevents the government from restricting freedom of speech. The 1st Amendment is not the full extent of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is the ability to present ideas without having them be silenced because of their point of view.
Re: Re: Re:5
I don’t give two pins about the 1st Amendment. One of the most pernicious parts about free speech discussions online is its incredibly American-centric viewpoint.
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Re: Re: Re:6
That’s nice. My country is better than yours (don’t need to know which one). In the case of other Western countries, that “better” is mostly because of the 1A. Germany, the UK, seem pretty OK….but you can be put in jail for saying the wrong thing. NZ too. They’re better than Iran, China, and Russia only in that happens pretty rarely.
Again, not knowing what country you’re from I am 100% sure it would be a better country if it had an equivalent to the 1st amendment.
Cool, glad we had this talk.
Re: Re: Re:7
Counterpoint: Your country has you.
Re: Re: Re:8
Which makes it demonstrably worse than any other shithole country.
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Re: Re: Re:6
That’s because America is the best country. Censorship is the worst when it’s done by governments, because they have the power to silence speakers on all platforms and to arrest them or worse if they refuse to remain silent. Having robust free speech protections against the government is a great thing.
Re: Re: Re:7
Best in what? School shootings? Incarcerations? Deaths from COVID?
Re: Re: Re:5
But “Freedom of speech” does not give you the right to use somebody else’s platform, soap box or central location without consequences.
If Twitter does not want your toxic speech on their platform, what right to you have to force them to host your toxic speech.
If Twitter doesn’t want you, you can always go somewhere else.
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Re: Re: Re:6
You’re getting “Free Speech” (censorship is the inverse) and the 1A confused again.
Yes, Twitter can censor shit. (as long as FBI didn’t tell them to, which is more the FBI’s problem) But that isn’t free speech. But it also doesn’t violate the 1A.
Re: Re: Re:7
When has free speech ever meant that you could force somebody else to give up their private property for your speech?
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Re: Re: Re:8
Real question: can you fucken read?!?
You are absolutely not required to give up your private property for someone’s speech. Refusing to do so to a particular person, when it would otherwise be publicly available, is not “free speech”, however.
What part of “Censorship and censorship by the government are different things legally” confused you?
Please grow up, learn to read.
Re: Re: Re:9
So, why do you hate the right to associate and private property laws?
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Re: Re: Re:10
I don’t. Can you read? Like at all?
Re: Re: Re:11
I can, and I am reading that you want to force your vile views where I am standing and I don’t get to tell you to fuck off.
I get plenty of that in my country and all it tells me is to prepare to die.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Why do you hate law the regulate public accommodations?
Re: Re: Re:11
Which law would that be? Title 2 of the CRA of 1964? Section 12187 of the ADA? Title 3 of the AwDA of 1990?
Perhaps you should read them but I don’t have high hopes of you actually understanding them.
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Re: Re: Re:12
“Which law would that be? Title 2 of the CRA of 1964? Section 12187 of the ADA? Title 3 of the AwDA of 1990?”
Yes, Yes, Yes, the way Mike’s Misfits interpret constitutional law most civil rights acts would be unconstitutional. Mike is paid by BigTech to argue a that BigTech enjoys specific constitutional rights enjoyed by no other public accommodation.
Re: Re: Re:13
What accommodation does “big tech” provide you fucking ignorant childish moron?
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Re: Re: Re:14
All of it? They accommodate the public. Certainly all the social media companies. Maybe not Apple?
Seriously, do you not understand what that means?
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Re: Re: Re:15
Its just classic sealioning. I ignore it because its too fucking stupid to bother with.
Re: Re: Re:16
KISS HIM YOU FOOL!
Re: Re: Re:16
Oh look, yet another word Chozen doesn’t understand
Re: Re: Re:15
ac·com·mo·da·tion
noun
1.
NORTH AMERICAN
temporary lodgings, sometimes also including board.
“the company offers a number of guesthouse accommodations in Cape Cod”
So, with that as the definition of accommodation, what accommodations does “big tech” provide?
You fuckers always like to change the meaning of words just to fit your narrative.
Re: Re: Re:15
WAIT WAIT WAIT! After all the shit we gave crybabby, and you don’t know what a public accommodation is either?
You really are a match made at at the back of the short bus.
Re: Re: Re:11
Since when is Twitter a public accommodation you fucking moron?
Twitter is a message board, nothing more, nothing less. It provides ZERO accommodations.
BTW, how soon should be expect to see DirecTV forced to carry OAN?
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Re: Re: Re:12
So since Twitter isn’t a “public accommodation” at least according to you that means that Twitter can refuse service “on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.”
Re: Re: Re:13
How many times did you get dropped on your head while eating paint chips next to high voltage power lines, as you have got to be the dumbest mother fucker I’ve seen in ages.
NO BUSINESS, no matter what their business is, can discriminate / refuse service “on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin.”
Although that may be enumerated in public accommodations laws, it’s also in employment laws, housing laws, and plenty others.
You keep coming up with these things you think are “gotchas” but all they do is just show how incredibly fucking stupid you are.
And hell, it’s been obvious since you told us all you had no fucking clue what a public house is and thought it meant public housing.
Re: Re: Re:11 Why are you so goddamn stupid?
Is that the one where you have to be over 21 to order a drink at the bar?
Re: Re: Re:9
Free speech, and freedom of the press, means that you can try to spread your words using any means that you control. When written, freedom of the press meant the printing press, with the meaning that anyone could own a printing press, and as the owner decide what they were going to print. By implication, therefore moderation is part of freedom of the press, and is not censorship as it does not prevent publication, but is a refusal to assist publication.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Nope. You guys are making up definitions again. Free speech is essentially the inverse of censorship, it means being able to say what you like. You are not guaranteed free speech under all circumstances (I’m not allowed to break into Masnick’s house and yell at him, tho I might like to) just that it cannot be stopped by the government.
Re: Re: Re:11
If others help you to publish your speech, on a voluntary basis, that is free speech. However as soon as you demand that others publish your speech you are demanding compelled speech, and denying others their freedom of speech.
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Re: Re: Re:10
That’s not what freedom of the press means. Few people owned printing press and the crown controlled access to the press through various schemes. These schemes continued in the British Empire into the mid 20th century when the last legal prohibitions against the Scottish Independence movement publishing their material was remover from the law in the 1960s.
Re: Re: Re:7
Moderation (“saying “I won’t support you”) is nothing but free speech.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Not really because no one ever believed that Trump’s tweets represented Twitter’s speech. That is the crux of Pruneyard, a no reasonable person would consider speech at a public accommodation that serves as a host for speech as being that public accommodations speech.
That fact that you, Mike, and the rest of Mike’s misfits do regard it as the accommodations speech proves as a matter of settled law that you are not reasonable people. FYI “not reasonable” is a polite way of saying far below average intelligence and/or suffer from mental illness.
Re: Re: Re:9
How many times to I have to shoot this down you fucking idiot.
Nobody ever believed that Trump’s speech was Twitter’s speech…. but Trump’s speech was so toxic that Twitter no longer wanted to “associate” with it, so using its 1A right to association, it removed Trump so that he is no longer associated with Twitter and no longer ruining their brand.
Only fucking children like you would use the fucking stupid argument that people would think Trump’s tweets are Twitter’s speech… fucking moron
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Re: Re: Re:10
You have not at any point “shot down” anyone. Assuming I’m associating you with the right “cowards” much of what you have said hasn’t even made sense.
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Re: Re: Re:10
“1A right to association” there is no such right enumerated in the First Amendment. There is case law on group speech that has been commonly called “freedom of association” but again no reasonable person would consider it Twitter speech. There is no group speech here to call “association”.
Re: Re: Re:11
No one had to. But by allowing Trump’s speech to flourish on its platform, Twitter allowed itself to become associated with Trump and his speech. It would be as if I ran a Mongolian basketweaving forum and allowed someone who posted a Neo-Nazi screed to stay on the forum: Sure, I didn’t post the speech, but my forum still lets a Neo-Nazi speak freely about their views, and that will reflect badly on me and my site to anyone who isn’t a Neo-Nazi.
That you limit your idea of “association” to “well they didn’t say it so no one would think it’s their speech so therefore it isn’t association” is your problem. I understand that association can mean “they let a bigot speak freely, so they must be welcoming to bigots” and argue accordingly. Your view doesn’t cancel out mine, but mine widens the view—if you’d accept that, yes, “association” isn’t only limited to direct 1-on-1 interactions between two distinct entities.
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Re: Re: Re:12
“No one had to. But by allowing Trump’s speech to flourish on its platform, Twitter allowed itself to become associated with Trump and his speech.”
The law doesn’t say all people you fucking moron. It says reasonable people. The people that associate Trumps speech as Twitter’s speech are not reasonable people.
People like you are not reasonable people. You are fucking morons and/or have mental illness.
Re: Re: Re:13
And neither did I.
Therein lies your issue: You keep thinking that my saying “association” means “they think Trump’s speech is Twitter’s speech” when I have never said anything of the sort. In this specific context, when I say “association”, I refer to the notion that people will see Twitter allowing Trump’s speech to flourish, think “Twitter doesn’t seem to mind letting assholes post whatever”, and act accordingly. The association isn’t “Trump’s speech and Twitter’s speech are one and the same”, but “Twitter lets an asshole like Trump do whatever, and that emboldens other assholes, so fuck that place”.
You can continue to labor under the incorrect idea that my bringing up “association” in this context means “Trump’s speech is seen as Twitter’s speech” or you can actually acknowledge your mistake and integrate new information accordingly. I assume you’ll take the first option rather than the second, but I want you to know that the second option is there whenever you feel like being something other than a jackass.
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Re: Re: Re:14
Back to law you fucking idiot. Twitter has zero constitutional right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. They only have a legal privilage to what degree the law allows.
Re: Re: Re:15
By that notion, all physical businesses lack a similar right to refuse service for any reason—but I don’t see you saying a Walmart can’t have a shoplifter banned from that given Walmart.
Either businesses have a right to refuse service on non-discriminatory grounds or they don’t. Which is it?
Re: Re: Re:15
The constitution defines the relationship between the government and citizens. It has nothing to do with the relationship between a business and its customers, except where it places limits on the government to regulate a business by the means of passing laws..
Re: Re: Re:15
Yes they do! They are a private business and can do whatever-the-fuck they want.
Otherwise, why has every court case involving Twitter (and other social media sites) has concluded that Twitter can ban people and there is zero recourse for the user.
Again, please tell me where in the constitution that it gives you a legal right to user Twitter.
Just like driving, it’s not a right, it’s a privilege, and if you fuck up, you lose that privilege to drive.
Also, how many girls / boys have you raped? All you people have the same idea that you have a right to do what you want: “No? It’s my right to fuck you because you wore revealing clothing!!”
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Re: Re: Re:16
“Yes they do! They are a private business and can do whatever-the-fuck they want.”
Oh no they dont. They have put their private property to the public interest as such they subject their private property to the public control to the extent of that interest. That is the legal basis behind all regulation.
Re: Re: Re:17
That doesn’t mean a business has to serve everyone—just that it can’t refuse to serve anyone in a way that discriminates against them based on who they are. A bakery owned by a Black man can’t refuse to serve a white customer because they’re white, but it can refuse service if that white customer is yelling racial slurs at other customers or destroying property within the bakery. The same principle applies to Twitter: Break the rules they set and you get booted, tough shit, buh-bye.
Re: Re: Re:18
Even venues that, unlike social media platforms, are public accomodations still retain their right to throw out disruptive patrons.
Re: Re: Re:17
Obviously it isn’t otherwise Twitter and other social media companies would be losing these court cases where people try to sue them because they were banned.
You love to talk about these concepts and laws, but you have ZERO to show for them. Just like DirecTV and OAN, you were certain that there were laws that the a consortium of AGs and other elected GQPs could use to force DirecTV to carry OAN… but it didn’t happen that way, so maybe, just maybe, you’re a fucking idiot and have no fucking clue what you are talking about.
Re: Re: Re:13
The people that associate Trumps speech as Twitter’s speech are not reasonable people.
No, they’re the advertisers running for the hills. Then again, I’m sure Musk has a plan to keep the lights on with just you dicktards on there freeze peaching.
You are fucking morons and/or have mental illness.
And you’re hundreds of comments deep trying to make some kind of point with fucking morons who have a mental illness…what does that say about you Chunt?
Re: Re: Re:9
Except the part for where how it works in the minds of reasonable people (not Chozen) is that if you know a piece of content is a tweet, it’s inextricably associated with twitter; a facebook post is inextricably associated with Facebook, etc.
In that way platform association operate scompletely differently from dumb-pipe telecommunications services, where you don’t know who the underlying providees are.
Re: Re: Re:4
I can’t quote you a specific statement saying exactly that, but you wouldn’t have demanded such precision if you weren’t at least aware of why people might come away with that impression from what you’ve been saying.
For example, consider: “Censorship would be if those people tried to keep you from saying what got you kicked out on anyone else’s property—including your own.”
The primary people who can do that are governments.
But, either way, that’s still a very idiosyncratic idea of what censorship is. If I had a site and I went through and ran a simple profanity word-replace, it is [i]entirely[/i] valid to say that I have censored certain particular words [i]on my site[/i]. That I have not barged into someone’s actual house and threatened to wash their mouth out with soap is irrelevant.
Content moderation is, necessarily, censoring. That’s inherent as soon as you start deciding certain things are unacceptable to express on a website.
That doesn’t make it bad! It’s important and necessary. But it’s important to bear in mind when you make those decisions that they are censorious.
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Re: Re: Re:5
Idiosyncratic is understatement, he just wants to use a wholly alternative definition of “censorship”. (several others here do too, I suspect this is a lie they tell each other) That the new, incorrect definition can only practically be fulfilled by governments is not a bug it’s a feature.
Re: Re: Re:6
You, sir, are not helpful.
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Re: Re: Re:7
You literally didn’t say anything. Why did you bother?
Re: Re: Re:8
I am informing you that your agreement with anything I say is worse than useless.
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Re: Re: Re:9
get fucked
Re: Re: Re:10
you first
Re: Re: Re:10
And comments like this one are precisely why you agreeing with me is something I’d prefer you didn’t advertise.
Re: Re: Re:5
I choose my words carefully in an attempt to clarify my positions and make sure my arguments are understood. I’ve had people mention to me in the past that yes, governments are not the only entities that can silence people. (But government power is often involved in such silencing. Copyright takedowns are one example.)
I mean, if you want to hold that position, sure. But I wouldn’t—and that’s because I don’t view moderation, including swear-changing moderation, to be censorship. And if all you did was change your own words on your own site, that would be discretion (personal or editorial, take your pick).
Expanding the concept of censorship to include content moderation or editorial discretion does nothing but water down the meaning of censorship until it can mean “Twitter deleted a post for breaking the TOS”, at which point the term becomes so ineffective as to be laughable. Examples of egregious censorship like book bans would become “just another thing that happens” when censorship can be found everywhere.
This is my typical copypasta on the matter…
…and I wrote it that way for a specific reason: The idea of what counts as censorship must remain narrow or else anything even remotely “censorious” would be considered as similarly evil and vile as actual censorship. Under such a strained belief, one could argue that Twitter must host bigoted speech or else it’s “censoring” the bigots who would post such speech. I’m not about to be on that side of that argument. I would hope you’re with me on that one…but I don’t trust to hope on This God Damn Internet™.
Re: Re: Re:6
I can understand why you would want to differentiate things like that, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea censorship must specifically be about enforcing a speech restraint universally. For example, as stated it means wide varieties of censorship, up to and including people throwing you in jail over what you say, wouldn’t qualify absent special pleading or further elaboration. Nothing short of an actual execution or something similarly drastic can truly entirely stop speech.
But even engaging without that nitpick, I disagree. You’re working backwards from your conclusion to pick your premises; you’ve chosen your definition of censorship with, as you acknowledge, the specific intention of making it refer solely to the most drastic varieties thereof in order to clarify that censorship is bad.
But any restraint on speech, imposed by a third party or done pre-emptively in anticipation of their reaction, is to some degree censorship. This has been the standard English use for ages; consider for example the classic censor bleep for swearing on television; it’s been referred to as a censor bleep essentially universally since inception. This despite the fact that under your provided schema, because profanity isn’t universally bleeped out, it can’t qualify as censorship — this despite the fact that it’s generally specifically done in response to government regulations on speech!
I think it is more useful to consider whether or not something is censored within specific scopes, and then to gauge from there whether or not it is good or bad to do so, rather than to proceed from the first principle that all censorship is bad, and then try to warp definitions to make that statement true.
So, given that, I would say is that Twitter is entirely capable of censoring people on Twitter (Consider it a parametrized version your definition of censorship, to be “someone saying you can’t say that anywhere that person controls“); that Twitter does censor people on Twitter, and that, of that censorship, the censoring of hate speech, is good but the censoring of people making fun of Elon Musk was pretty stupid.
Re: Re: Re:7
Except it would. Censorship isn’t only about the absolute silencing or hiding of speech—it’s also about curbing a person’s desire to speak by inflicting (or threatening to inflict) consequences for speaking in a way that those with power don’t like. A credible threat of a lawsuit, for example, is one way to make someone think twice about saying whatever they’re being sued over, even if the lawsuit never happens. (Same goes for threats of violence.) Chilling effects sure as shit qualify as censorship; anyone who tells you otherwise is bullshitting you.
Again: Referring to anything like “getting booted off social media” as “censorship” is an attempt to weaking the term so the weakest possible “restraints” on speech are seen as equally vile as book bans/burnings, copyright takedowns for legal speech, and other nefarious means of silencing speech and its speaker(s).
When I was a Twitter user, I once used the F-word—the bad one, that is—to take a potshot at someone’s anti-queer attitudes during an argument. I got popped by Twitter’s automated moderation for doing that. Under your views, that would count as “censorship”. But speaking as the person who actually got popped: No, it isn’t, because Twitter (a) never violated my civil rights, (b) never told me not to say what I had said elsewhere, and (c) never took any action to prevent me from saying what I had said elsewhere if I had chosen to do so. (In the end, I deleted the tweet and ate the temp suspension because duh.)
My view of censorship is informed by my experiences as an imageboard moderator, a social media user, and a close-to-lethally online Internet user in general. I don’t take that view lightly and I didn’t form it without extensive thought into why I hold that view. You and I can disagree on whether my view is too narrow, but I’ll always be in favor of interpreting the idea of “censorship” in a narrow way because…well, to paraphrase a certain Pixar movie: When everything is censorship, nothing will be.
You may have a point here. But the idea that censorship can refer to both “someone gets booted off a forum by a moderator” and “a conservative action group gets a state government to yank books off public and school library shelves because the books have queer characters” in equal measure, as if both situations are the same, is ludicrous to me. You’re gonna need one hell of an argument to make me think otherwise. To wit:
Worse people than you have put forth that same argument, and every time, I’ve disregarded it because it once again presupposes that any kind of content moderation is censorship, and I can’t buy into that based on personal experience from both sides of the moderation hammer. Give me something better to consider if you really want to change my mind. I’m open to hearing whatever you can bring.
…oh, and one more (off-topic) thing. Hey, Chozen and Matty B and all the other trolls: I disagreed with this poster but I didn’t flag them, and that’s because they didn’t act like an asshole about their disagreement with me. They appear to want a good faith discussion and I’m happy to have that with them, even if—all things considered—I’m being a bit of a stubborn asshole myself.
Re: Re: Re:8
When everythung is “censorship,” nothing is.
Reich-whingers lie that moderation is censorship in attempt todeaw a false equivalence defending the Republican/Fascist party’s actual censorship efforts, like those we see from Florida, Texas, Georgia, etc.
Re: Re: Re:8
“Censorship isn’t only about the absolute silencing or hiding of speech—it’s also about curbing a person’s desire to speak by inflicting (or threatening to inflict) consequences for speaking in a way that those with power don’t like. A credible threat of a lawsuit, for example, is one way to make someone think twice about saying whatever they’re being sued over, even if the lawsuit never happens. (Same goes for threats of violence.) Chilling effects sure as shit qualify as censorship; anyone who tells you otherwise is bullshitting you.”
I don’t at all disagree that chilling effects, threatening lawsuits, and so on are all censorship — I am saying that your ‘copypasta’ paragraph doesn’t capture such things very well. Or at all, really.
The biggest issue is with the term “anywhere”.
I think you have an unconscious scope-limit on it; for example, I don’t have to give two shits about, say, anti-abortion censorship laws being passed in the United States because there’s absolutely nothing they can do to me because I am not in their power. Yet they are, nevertheless, obvious censorship.
That’s why I think it’s more relevant to think about censorship in the context of what the censor has control over.
“When I was a Twitter user, I once used the F-word—the bad one, that is—to take a potshot at someone’s anti-queer attitudes during an argument. I got popped by Twitter’s automated moderation for doing that. Under your views, that would count as “censorship”. But speaking as the person who actually got popped: No, it isn’t, because Twitter (a) never violated my civil rights, (b) never told me not to say what I had said elsewhere, and (c) never took any action to prevent me from saying what I had said elsewhere if I had chosen to do so. (In the end, I deleted the tweet and ate the temp suspension because duh.)”
But that is precisely censorship: It is Twitter deciding that a slur is unacceptable on their platform and punishing people who do so. This is a question of scope, not of kind, and that form of censorship is not inherently bad.
Or, to look at this a slightly different way, if you don’t bear in mind that moderation decisions to restrict speech are, at minimum, censorious in nature and intent, then you don’t give the proper weight to the question of whether or not you do enact those restrictions.
A gripe I have about the arguments here is that people keep dropping the specific actors and contexts.
Twitter censoring things on Twitter is distinct from, say, the Quebec government decreeing you cannot put up signs in English. The specifics matter, because the scope, actors, and intent all inform whether or not the decision is a good one.
See, the effect you’re talking about is when people go “everything is censorship and therefore bad.” The ‘censorship is bad’ piece is taken as axiomatic and then used to try to argue that ‘Because Twitter stopped me from doing X, that is censorship (true) and therefore bad (not necessarily)’.
But, for me, if someone complaints to me that Twitter censored, oh say, to pull up Matty’s favourite example, the Babylon Bee for calling a woman a man, my response is: “Yes, and good for them.”
(For what it’s worth, I also have moderation and site policy-making experience in this arena.)
Re: Re: Re:9
The relevant portion of my spiel says this:
I believe that addresses the idea that threats meant to suppress speech—be they threats of lawsuits, violence, or some other negative consequence—as a form of censorship. I’ll see if I can’t come up with a version of that line to address your criticisms, but the point of my copypasta is that it’s meant to be short and sweet so it doesn’t become a whole-ass article in and of itself. I’m always willing to expand my thoughts on the matter—I’ve got two articles on this site that do exactly that, and I’m more than willing to have a discussion in the comments for the same purpose (as we’re doing right now).
I think I can address this position as my comment goes on.
I still have a problem with the idea that moderation is censorship precisely because it means to conflate situations like that with the intentional suppression of speech. You’re essentially telling me that if a queer-friendly Mastodon instance decides to defederate with another instance because the second instance allows anti-queer speech to go by unpunished, the queer-friendly instance is being censorious. I can’t buy into that logic any more than I could if the political leanings of the instances were switched.
…okay, this is a fair point. But I can’t buy into the argument just yet because I don’t see moderation as censorious in nature. I look to an article titled “We Don’t Do That Here” for the logic behind my thinking on this:
That’s what moderation is to me, at least in an idealized way of thinking about it. I don’t see it as censorious precisely because it isn’t telling you to shut the fuck up everywhere—it’s telling you “this is unacceptable behavior in this space, so don’t do it again or there will be consequences”. You can choose to disregard the warning or exercise discretion; in either case, you haven’t been censored.
Therein lies my issue with your arguments: Censorship, to me, is evil. To refer to any kind of censorship as “good” grinds my gears because censorship isn’t supposed to be “good”. We aren’t supposed to look for ways to carry out “good” censorship.
I’m opposed to government-backed book bans. And while it’s easy to say that when I stand opposed to the removal of books with content I find acceptable, it’s much harder to say that about books with content I don’t like. But that’s why we have personal principles: I should be as upset about a public library being forced to remove a book by that dipshit Tucker Carlson as I would be about that same library being forced to remove a book with queer-friendly content. That’s because neither book should be pulled off the shelves because someone disagrees with their contents. (The best libraries offend everyone.)
My response would be “it isn’t censorship to be told that your speech isn’t acceptable somewhere”. I mean, if I kick someone out of my home for saying “Everything Everywhere All at Once sucked”, I haven’t stopped them from saying that—i.e., I haven’t suppressed their speech. All I’ve done is shown them the door, which is another way of saying “we don’t do that here, so please go somewhere else and do it”.
Three primary ideas form the backbone of my views on censorship and moderation:
You’re free to challenge those ideas, but as I’ve said, getting me to change them is going to require one hell of an argument.
With all that said: I genuinely appreciate the fact that someone is disagreeing with my views, challenging my ideas, and doing so without being an asshole about it. (Hint hint, troll brigade!)
Re: Re: Re:10
“I still have a problem with the idea that moderation is censorship precisely because it means to conflate situations like that with the intentional suppression of speech.”
But the thing is, it is an intentional suppression of speech, within the area that the person doing so can do so.
That the area in question is not absolutely everywhere (or even, more reasonably, some relatively large space, such as e.g. a state or country) or that the entity in question can’t physically throw you in lockup are questions of scale and ability. They are not questions of category.
“You’re essentially telling me that if a queer-friendly Mastodon instance decides to defederate with another instance because the second instance allows anti-queer speech to go by unpunished, the queer-friendly instance is being censorious.”
I cannot speak authoritatively or in detail re: Mastodon as I haven’t used it for more than reading, but if I understand how it works, defederating is an org-to-org association decision that essentially hides the content of one thing from another. I would say that that is a censorious action in that it is — again, within the context of what someone is able to do — trying to curtail speech.
Whether that is a problem is separate from whether it is a rights violation.
It may well be a good thing, as in your example. Or it may be bad without being a rights violation; consider an alternative hypothesis of, for example, Google suppressing search results, which isn’t any kind of free speech violation but could clearly potentially be used to disappear things like people criticizing Google’s search monopoly. Or some of Amazon’s anti-competitive practices, which could even cross over into outright illegal without being a specifically free speech issue.
“That’s what moderation is to me, at least in an idealized way of thinking about it. I don’t see it as censorious precisely because it isn’t telling you to shut the fuck up everywhere—it’s telling you “this is unacceptable behavior in this space, so don’t do it again or there will be consequences”. You can choose to disregard the warning or exercise discretion; in either case, you haven’t been censored.”
The thing is, what you describe here, “don’t do this or else”, is precisely an act of censorship. You have a prohibition on speech, backed up by coercion. As you say, you don’t like hearing it described as such, for reasons you’ve elaborated on, but I think your reasoning is running backwards; more below on why.
“Three primary ideas form the backbone of my views on censorship and moderation:
Bluntly, I think points 2 and 3 are irreconcilable. Moderation absolutely is about keeping some speech from being heard or information being accessed. That it may be doable somewhere else the moderating group can’t control is beside the point.
Consider: If Texas slams through a ban on communicating ‘how to get a safe abortion’, you could just move to, I dunno, upstate New York or wherever, and say it freely. The logic of those principles, taken together, would then say that it can’t be censorship; you’ve simply been shown the door.
But, of course, that’s an absurd conclusion. This isn’t formal mathematics or anything, where a contradictory conclusion forcibly negates the premise, but it’s certainly an invitation to examine whether those principles are really as solid as you think they are.
“Censorship is bad” shouldn’t be axiomatic, though I realize it runs a bit contrary to Techdirt’s usual vibe to express it like that. “Censorship is bad” should be a conclusion arrived at from the impacts it has.
And there are, of course, many and varied examples when it is anywhere from bad to horrifically abusive, so I can understand how you’d get to the point where it’s just easier to treat it as axiomatic.
But once you’re there, the only way to square the circle with examples of censorship not being bad is to play the redefinition game and No True Scotsman such acts of censorship into not being really censorship.
In exercising moderation, you are exactly choosing what speech you will allow and what you will not, which is exactly what a censor does.
And so, moderation isn’t bad because it is censorship, or fine because it isn’t; moderation is good or bad because of what results from its exercise, not what you choose to call it.
I think it is both more practical and more coherent to acknowledge that censorship is censorship, and to then look at the actual impacts of particular instances and how they intersect with the general principles behind free speech instead of having what is basically an argument over terms.
Re: Re: Re:11
A good chunk of your comment is reiterating points I disagree with, and I don’t feel like endlessly repeating all my own disagreements, so I’mma pick out a handful of things and go after those points.
And that’s where one of my problems with your argument lies: By saying that censorship can be about one specific area, you’re cheapening the term. It’s like saying…
…that a forum dedicated to, I’unno, Jem and the Holograms is censoring someone who comes in to post about Batman: The Animated Series: You’re equating efforts to curate a community with efforts to suppress speech and the free flow of information. That will never sit right with me regardless of how you phrase the argument.
Google should be indexing the Internet without favor, affection, malice, or ill-will, then presenting the most relevant results to end users. Google suppressing a link only because a Google employee doesn’t like the content on that website would absolutely be censorship. (Google suppressing a link because of, say, a copyright takedown would be censorship as well, even if it’s allowed by law because of our stupid fucked-up godawful shitbag of a copyright system.)
Not everyone has the resources to move out of state—or to access the information through “unofficial” channels. The whole point in referring to Texas doing that as “censorship” is that the Texas state government shouldn’t be blocking anyone from accessing information about a legitimate (and statistically safe) medical procedure even if (and only because) the state legislators disagree with that information/the procedure itself.
This is also why I refer to government-backed book bans in public libraries as censorship, by the by. The government shouldn’t be telling anyone what they can’t read, and not everyone has the resources to be able to buy the banned books for themselves (which is one reason why public libraries exist in the first place).
A fair point. That said: You’re the one who’s trying to find “good” examples of censorship. I’m the one who’s trying to say “moderation isn’t censorship” because it helps me avoid that squaring-the-circle issue…
…as well as ideas like that one.
You’re correct that moderation is about choosing what speech you will and won’t allow. But it’s only applicable to a site/service that you own and operate. It doesn’t stop anyone, and it doesn’t let you stop anyone, from going anywhere else and repeating the speech you decide to ban from your site/service. That’s the beauty of cyberspace, at least compared to meatspace: As long as someone has an Internet connection and a device capable of connecting to the Internet, the entire goddamn Internet is at their disposal in re: expressing their speech.
I will acknowledge censorship when I see it, and in acts of moderation, I don’t see it. That may come down to nitpicking about “areas” instead of “categories” or the definition of “suppress” or whatever, but that’s my view on the matter. You’ve presented some decent counterarguments to my bullshit, that much I won’t deny—but it hasn’t been enough to change my mind on my ideas.
And with that said, I have to take my leave of this discussion—not because I can’t continue it (I definitely could), but because I feel we’re at an impasse in re: our ideas on censorship and further discussion won’t do much to change either of our minds. I do want to thank you for the discussion, though. You’ve actually helped me clarify a few of my ideas and, despite my disagreements with your positions, given me a couple of ideas to chew on in the future. For that, I’m sincerely grateful. 👍
Re: Re: Re:12
No worries. Honestly, when someone says they’ve held a view for years I don’t really expect to change that in an evening with a discussion buried deep in the comment threads of a blog.
That said, I would like to ask you something:
“Google should be indexing the Internet without favor, affection, malice, or ill-will, then presenting the most relevant results to end users. Google suppressing a link only because a Google employee doesn’t like the content on that website would absolutely be censorship. ”
Why does this count as censorship? Why is the basis on which Google makes that decision relevant enough to be a consideration? It can’t be because there’s no alternative to Google, because there is and are, just as there’s alternatives to Twitter or to living in Texas.
Moreover, I would suggest that demanding Google not ever influence their search results is both kinda weird — Google’s search rankings are an entirely arbitrary construct to begin with — and probably an infringement on Google’s speech as a corporate entity, by requiring they give prominence to things they may not wish to.
“You’re correct that moderation is about choosing what speech you will and won’t allow. But it’s only applicable to a site/service that you own and operate. It doesn’t stop anyone, and it doesn’t let you stop anyone, from going anywhere else and repeating the speech you decide to ban from your site/service.”
I think our primary source of disagreement is that I don’t think the option to go elsewhere means jack squat about whether or not the original action was censorious. That lets me avoid a whole pile of special pleading about ‘well it’s difficult to go elsewhere so in this case it’s censorship’ and whatnot.
It’s all censorship, end of, which then allows you to move the discussion to whether any given particular act of censorship (or moderation, if you prefer) is worthwhile, which is what the entire “it’s censorship/no it’s moderation” shebang is almost always about when people are discussing stuff like “twitter banned me personally”.
Re: Re: Re:13
I should be asleep, but insomnia loves to fuck with me, so I’ll grab back onto this for one more reply.
Google is, for better or for worse, the search engine of the Internet. Some global exceptions aside (e.g., China), Google is both the default search engine and the de facto term for searching stuff on the Internet (e.g., “let’s Google that and see if it’s true”) for millions upon millions of people. Any attempt by Google to hide information from searchers because Google doesn’t like that information feels a hell of a lot like censorship to me precisely because of the ubiquity and reach of Google Search.
…and yes, I do realize now that what I said in that regard earlier does run contrary to other things I said earlier. But the difference between Twitter and Google, from where I sit, is that Google is so big and so widely used that it feels like the only search engine that matters. Maybe that isn’t enough to make the act of hiding a link because of disagreement with the content behind it an act of “actual” censorship (based on the ideas I hold), but it would sure as shit feel like censorship to me.
(That said, I stand by the notion that Google taking down links because of copyright is censorship because of the involvement of the legal system, even if such censorship is allowed because of copyright violations.)
Which is why I didn’t do that. Of course Google should influence their results—but only to bring relevant, credible links to the forefront of any search results. Hiding a link completely for any reason other than a legitimate court order is bullshit and, as I said, feels a hell of a lot like censorship to me.
I do believe this is where we part ways on our positions, yes. Or at least partially part ways. To go back to the Texas hypothetical: Even if a majority of people affected by the decision to hide info about abortion could hypothetically leave Texas/find that information elsewhere, the act would still be censorship because it would be denying citizens the right to legally access information through proper channels—and denying those who have that information the right to legally disseminate that information.
The difference with social media is no service can completely deny access to information. People bitched about the New York Post/“Hunter Biden’s laptop” thing as being censorship of the Post, but that was never censorship. The original story was still on the Post’s website and plenty of people on Twitter were talking about the story (and the temporary suspension of the Post) all throughout that day.
I don’t see moderation as censorship because moderation can’t deny you access to information. It can remove that information from view on a specific platform, but it can’t remove or prevent you from finding the information altogether. Moderation is community curation, not censorship.
Again: I don’t think we should be looking to ask ourselves whether there is “good” censorship and how we can carry it out. It comes off as the first step down a short road into hell. I try to keep my interpretation of what counts as censorship limited because I don’t want to walk down that road.
Censorship bothers me because I think anyone should have the right to speak freely and access as much information as they want. When something comes along that denies those rights to even one person, I see it as an affront to everyone’s rights. But I don’t see moderation in that light because it doesn’t put those rights in peril—it asks only for a disruptive force in a community to either stop being disruptive or face the consequences of their actions.
Sure, as a moderator, I had the power to say “this speech isn’t welcome here, take it elsewhere or be prepared for the banhammer”. But I would never have said “this speech isn’t welcome here, but don’t say it anywhere else because [vague threat of consequences]”. I would never want to control what people say outside of the community I moderate—and even within that community, I would want to moderate speech as lightly as possible. I don’t want to be a censor, in theory or in act, so when someone refers to moderation as censorship, my experience tends to make me a little defensive of my ideas on both of those. Taking that personally isn’t the most healthy thing to do from a psychological standpoint, but it does remind me that moderation should have limits so it doesn’t have a chance to become censorship—“good” or otherwise.
Re: Re: Re:14
“Sure, as a moderator, I had the power to say “this speech isn’t welcome here, take it elsewhere or be prepared for the banhammer”. But I would never have said “this speech isn’t welcome here, but don’t say it anywhere else because [vague threat of consequences]”.”
Okay, but that doesn’t make it not censorious. What it does mean is that it is censorship you find desirable, but since your position is that censorship must be bad you then have to resort to trying to say it isn’t censorship to square the circle.
Like, I want to be clear here in case there’s some kind of miscommunication: I am not looking to ‘find ways to make censorship (as you define it) good’. I am saying that we’re talking about the exact same action and making the exact same value judgement about its merits, i.e. that booting a jackass from your platform is both legal and beneficial.
From there, what happens is that I say this is an example of censorship (because it is a suppression of speech), but also an example of a time when that is not bad.
You say it isn’t censorship, because it isn’t bad. But that’s fallacious, contrary to general word use, and moreover it leads to getting stuck in a bog of “is/isn’t censorship” when what you’re trying to discuss are things like whether something is a violation of your rights, whether it is proportionate or reasonable to the goals it is being done in service of, whether those goals are agreeable, etc. Those are the important questions, whatever you choose to call the act of squelching someone.
I just think my approach requires a lot less mental gymnastics and moves practical discussion forward better.
(As a bonus it unbalances the standard shithead when you just cheerfully go, “yeah I censored you” right back at ’em. You can get some wonderfully unhinged reactions when you depart from their script!)
Re: Re: Re:15
The whole point of censorship is that it’s trying to deprive people of their rights to speak freely and access information. From where I sit, anyone who wants to find ways to justify censorship or make it sound “less bad” in any way is looking for a foot in the door to achieve a greater censorship.
No, I say “moderation isn’t censorship” because it doesn’t actually infringe on someone’s rights to speak freely or access information. Moderation can be wielded for shitty purposes, and that’s bad, but that still doesn’t make me think of moderation as censorship.
My position may be more complex than yours, yes. But the nuance in my ideas is borne from another idea: Saying “moderation is censorship” weakens the concept of censorship and attacks the idea of moderation in a way that makes it sound like censorious actions from a government (or a powerful private entity). If I accepted the idea of “moderation is censorship”, I’d be giving up on a set of principles I’ve held onto for a long damn time…
…one of which is that I never want to be the kind of person who takes pride in calling themselves a censor.
Re: Re: Re:16
Apologies if this shows up twice; I think my first attempt was eaten.
I can get that reluctance, but I don’t think it’s enough to justify things, and I think it’s a bit of cart-before-the-horse thinking.
Let’s go back to one of the underlying principles you laid out:
“Censorship is about suppressing speech from being heard/information from being accessed, which includes actions (or threats thereof) intended to make someone afraid to speak/share information.”
This is something I fully agree with. It is accurate, reasonably comprehensive, and provides a useful basis for identifying what is or is not censorious. It is even a good point for moving on to a discussion of why that is, tabula rasa, bad.
But where you go from there gets sticky, because if you use that in its plain meaning it is immediately obvious that a great many things are censorious, including simple exercises of freedom of association or speech.
So you try to patch that by saying this or that isn’t really suppressing speech, on the grounds of there being alternatives.
But then you hit the problem that from that patch, now lots of things you think of as censorship aren’t caught by your schema, like the book bannings you refer to, because well, there’s alternatives. So now you need another patch for that, because it clearly is censorship (and of a particularly odious sort) but your axioms as set up, or at least as explained, wouldn’t let you call it that.
It’s like adding epicycles to a geocentric solar system. If you do it enough you can get a usable model, but you’re missing a better organizing principle that would remove the entire need for it.
Re: Re: Re:17
That all depends on how you define/interpret “suppress”. I use it in the sense that suppression is complete (or close enough to count): If I were to suppress someone’s speech, I would be denying them the right to speak their mind anywhere instead of merely denying them the privilege to speak on my property (in cyber- or meatspace). That seems to be the main divergence in our views: You appear to view “suppression” as any kind of deletion or silencing, even if only on a single platform. (If I’m wrong, I’ll own that, but that’s what I gather from your posts.)
Book bans count as censorship because even if some people have the resources to buy a banned book themselves, others don’t. In some cases, people can’t buy a banned book because doing so might expose a part of their identity (e.g., their sexual orientation) that they’re not comfortable with expressing that openly. Banning a book from a public or school library isn’t about whether alternative routes to the book are available, but about the government considering the book so offensive that it believes no one should be allowed to access it (or the information within it) from a public institution. Book bans are about suppressing the flow of information, especially to people who can’t access it any other way, which is why I consider them to be censorship.
That sort of thing can’t generally happen on the Internet. If someone gets booted from Twitter for saying racial slurs, they can go to a different service and say those same slurs without either Twitter or the government being able to stop them from doing that. The flow of that information, bigoted and shitheaded though it may be, isn’t and can’t be suppressed by Twitter upholding its ToS.
I’ll grant that my thinking on the matter could be simplified. But as I said before, doing so would require me to give up some deeply held personal principles regarding censorship. You’re essentially asking me to hold my personal experience as a moderator under the light of censorship. I cannot and will not do that even if doing that would simplify all my ideas about censorship. I actively want to avoid being a censor even by accident; I never want to take pride in being a censor on purpose.
Re: Re: Re:18
“That all depends on how you define/interpret “suppress”. I use it in the sense that suppression is complete (or close enough to count): If I were to suppress someone’s speech, I would be denying them the right to speak their mind anywhere instead of merely denying them the privilege to speak on my property (in cyber- or meatspace). That seems to be the main divergence in our views: You appear to view “suppression” as any kind of deletion or silencing, even if only on a single platform.”
I suppose. It seems a misuse of the term, though; suppression doesn’t need to be thorough, or even successful, to still be suppression. I believe there’s even court decisions on this precise point.
This also means that what I view as suppressing speech directly covers things like a threatened lawsuit and so on. On the other hand, your definition of suppression being ‘complete, or close enough’ means things like curfews or a school library book ban (because other libraries exist, for example) might not count, unless you then go in and start adding in more rules and more rules and more rules.
It really feels to me like you’re working backwards; that you identify whether, and to what degree, something is heinous, and have that be the determinant for whether or not it is censorship. And then you work from the principles you’ve set out to get to that conclusion.
Re: Re: Re:19
In my view, it does need to be thorough. You can’t really say Donald Trump’s speech was suppressed by his (now-undone) Twitter ban when he can call a press conference or give a media interview or post on some other social media site. And attempted-but-failed suppression is still an attempt at censorship: A book ban that gets reversed, for example, is a failed attempt at censorship.
I don’t need to “add rules” because such situations already tend to fall into my existing ideas. A public school library, like a standalone public library, is a government institution; if the school pulls a book off the shelves because it has queer-friendly content or talks about racism or whatever, that’d be censorship in much the same way such a move being done in a public library would be censorship. The question of age-appropriate content presents a trickier situation: Schools obviously shouldn’t be letting grade-schoolers read something akin to Lady Chatterly’s Lover, but a teenager being mature enough to handle a novel like The Hate U Give should be a decision made by parents instead of government employees.
Nuance is a bitch, but it’s important to look for and think about such nuances. Within them are the interesting ideas, the ideas that can help form new ideas, discard outdated ones, and strengthen already-solid ones. Otherwise you end up with simplified thinking about everything; e.g., “all religion is bad” as opposed to “certain organized religious sects suck harder than a Shop-Vac, but religion and spirituality are not necessarily evil”.
Truth Social banning liberals for espousing liberal speech is ridiculous bullshit and hypocritical to the extreme, but it isn’t censorship. A forum moderator banning someone for criticizing said mod is an obvious dick move, but that ban isn’t censorship.
I start with my definition/interpretation of “censorship”, then gather details on a given situation or event to figure out if it fits that interpretation. Whether it does or it doesn’t, I’ll call it like I see it. Sometimes that does require me to do some thinking on my interpretation—as this comment thread has shown—and every once in a while, I’ll catch myself saying something is censorship when my ideas would otherwise make me say it isn’t. (To wit: Your Google example, which would feel like censorship but not technically qualify under my ideas. Kudos to you for calling me in on that one.)
I may have some motivated reasoning to not consider moderation as censorship. That much I’ll grant. But I’m still trying to work on keeping that blind spot from affecting my views as much as possible. That means keeping an open mind about new ideas and new ways of thinking on this subject—something that I’ll gladly admit you’ve presented to me here, even if I disagree with what you’ve presented. That’s why my thinking on the matter is nuanced and complex: I want to be sure that I’m upholding my own personal principles while also presenting logical arguments that can explain those principles and the ideas that formed them without simplifying them into a short, pithy slogan that runs counter to all my principles.
Re: Re: Re:20
“I don’t need to “add rules” because such situations already tend to fall into my existing ideas. A public school library, like a standalone public library, is a government institution; if the school pulls a book off the shelves because it has queer-friendly content or talks about racism or whatever, that’d be censorship in much the same way such a move being done in a public library would be censorship.”
But why would it be censorship, from the principles you’ve given, if you can just walk down the road to a general public library and get the same thing?
This is a sort of show-your-work question, because it seems to me you have added a rule: specifically, that it is a government action. But that’s not anywhere in your original premises, which don’t care about who does it — just how effective it is. But in this hypothetical, its only censorship in a limited physical space with many potential alternatives; other libraries, bookstores, online access, etc.
I don’t think it could be reasonably argued to be the complete or near complete suppression you say is required. Yet you (correctly) ID it as censorship. Where’s the connective tissue?
Re: Re: Re:21
As I explained earlier: It’s about a government institution deciding what information will be (and should be) available to the citizens of a given area through a public institution. Whether some citizens can access that information independently of the institution is irrelevant—other citizens may not have those resources, which makes having that information made available through a public institution important for them.
People have a right to access information of any kind. The government has no business telling anyone that a book it doesn’t like, for any reason whatsoever, shouldn’t be in a library—school or public.
In this specific context, yes, it is ultimately a government action. (Although I should note that book bans these days are largely driven by conservative activists, which is why they’re targeting books written by, about, and for queer people and people of color.) But yes, censorship can be carried out by private entities. That does, however, require them to put someone else’s right to speak freely in peril—at least in my view—and that is something bog-standard website moderation can’t do in any way. Again: Donald Trump got banned from Twitter and he was still able to speak his mind on other platforms and through the media. Twitter didn’t censor him and it couldn’t have censored him even if Twitter’s higher-ups gave enough of a shit to make the attempt.
Re: Re: Re:22
Hypothetical, then: Suppose Twitter took exactly the same actions, but at the behest of the U.S. government. Would that change your view as to whether it was censorious?
Re: Re: Re:23
Twitter is a private entity; the people who run it can decide what speech they deem “unacceptable” to post on Twitter and punish those who cross that line. The government has no say in what Twitter can or can’t deem “unacceptable speech” on its property. (Well, other than speech deemed illegal or unlawful under U.S. law, for what I hope are obvious reasons.)
If Twitter were to ban someone for posting racial slurs only because the higher-ups decided they don’t want to host that speech on Twitter, that would be moderation. That’s because Twitter can’t do anything to prevent that user from going to another website and repeating that speech.
If Twitter were to hand out that same ban only because the government decided it didn’t want Twitter to host that speech, that would be censorship. That’s because the government would be attempting to curtail the rights of both the user (by preventing the user from speaking their mind) and Twitter itself (by deciding for Twitter what speech and users it will and will not host) regardless of whether Twitter would choose to host that speech in the first place.
Re: Re: Re:24
“That’s because the government would be attempting to curtail the rights of both the user (by preventing the user from speaking their mind) and Twitter itself (by deciding for Twitter what speech and users it will and will not host) regardless of whether Twitter would choose to host that speech in the first place.”
But that isn’t one of the things you listed as determining whether you classify something as censorship.
The impact on the user — leaving aside for the nonce the impact on Twitter’s own speech, which you rightly say could be impacted — would be precisely the same, no? It doesn’t matter if Twitter does it on its own hook or because someone in the government asked them to do so. So the analysis of whether or not their speech has been suppressed, by what you have laid out, then should not change either. But your conclusions have changed.
This is what I’m trying to get at: you have more and more unspoken assumptions being brought in here. On the other hand, if you remove the claimed requirement to consider speech only suppressed if it’s strongly suppressed (which, as with the library issue and so on, is abandoned in practice anyway), you can instead consider it in relation to the actual impacts and implementations: to what extent is speech being suppressed; by whom is it being done; how coercive are the measures; what speech is being suppressed, why is it being suppressed, and so on.
If you think moderation doesn’t involve suppressing speech, you’re fooling yourself. I think it’s important to bear that in mind, particularly when designing moderation policies.
(And I think, at this point, that this discussion’s probably run it’s course, because I think we’re starting to just repeat ourselves. Been fun! 🙂 )
Re: Re: Re:25
Except it is. Through this entire conversation, I’ve noted multiple times that my view on censorship is partially rooted in the idea that censorship is about the curtailing of someone’s right to speak freely.
In the broadest sense, yes. But a government willing to flex its power just so it can stop that user from posting on Twitter could also try to flex that same power against that same user if they go to a different platform. Barring a situation where a user has posted something illegal under U.S. law (and I hope you can understand why that’s an exception), the government shouldn’t be using its power to shut up any user of any social media service.
But it does matter.
The point I make about people being able to post on other sites is predicated on how the Internet works: Once you have a device that can access the Internet, you can go to any website from that device—and no other website can stop you from doing that. Get banned from Twitter, for example, and it can’t stop you from going immediately to Mastodon or Truth Social and bitching about that ban.
Then you have a case like Packingham v. North Carolina, where the North Carolina state government attempted to bar sex offenders from using any social media service. The Supreme Court ruled against the government in that case, deeming that social media sites were “the modern public square” and a government entity denying access to such sites runs afoul of the First Amendment’s protections for free speech.
That’s why, in my view, Twitter bans would only ever be censorship if they were demanded—ordered, even!—by the government. Twitter can’t flex any kind of power that would keep you from posting on Truth Social…but the government certainly could.
In the way I view both moderation and suppression of speech, it doesn’t do that. To me, the suppression of speech requires a violation of someone’s right to speak freely/access information. Moderation can never do that because I can’t violate someone’s rights by telling them to fuck off from my property or deleting their speech from my service. The worst I can do in that regard is make that person (and their shitty speech) someone else’s problem.
I tried to tap out a day ago, but kept coming back because you were presenting new angles for my thinking that I needed to consider. If only the trolls would—or could—take a lesson from you about how to disagree gracefully and present solid arguments. Once more, I appreciate the discussion, regardless of whether we changed one another’s minds about any of it. 👍
Re: Re: Re:25
Almost certainly not, because the government would also stop other sites from hosting the same speech. Governments rare if ever target just one occurrence of what they want to ban, but rather all of them.
Re: Re: Re:26
Governments very frequently try to censor only in specific areas or even just specific people in specific places at specific times, in point of fact.
Re: Re: Re:17
Also:
The spamfilter catches me on occasion, too. Give the staff a little time to sort things out and they’ll usually sort it out. 😃
Re: Re: Re:15
Replies to Stephen’s post appear to be vanishing? Not sure if we’ve hit maximum thread depth or something.
Apologies if this shows up twice or more.
I can get that reluctance, but I don’t think it’s enough to justify things, and I think it’s a bit of cart-before-the-horse thinking.
Let’s go back to one of the underlying principles you laid out:
“Censorship is about suppressing speech from being heard/information from being accessed, which includes actions (or threats thereof) intended to make someone afraid to speak/share information.”
This is something I fully agree with. It is accurate, reasonably comprehensive, and provides a useful basis for identifying what is or is not censorious. It is even a good point for moving on to a discussion of why that is, tabula rasa, bad.
But where you go from there gets sticky, because if you use that in its plain meaning it is immediately obvious that a great many things are censorious, including simple exercises of freedom of association or speech.
So you try to patch that by saying this or that isn’t really suppressing speech, on the grounds of there being alternatives.
But then you hit the problem that from that patch, now lots of things you think of as censorship aren’t caught by your schema, like the book bannings you refer to, because well, there’s alternatives. So now you need another patch for that, because it clearly is censorship (and of a particularly odious sort) but your axioms as set up, or at least as explained, wouldn’t let you call it that.
It’s like adding epicycles to a geocentric solar system. If you do it enough you can get a usable model, but you’re missing a better organizing principle that would remove the entire need for it.
Re: Re: Re:16
Ah, okay, just a processing delay. Redundant posts can be removed, sorry 🙁
Re: Re: Re:6
Addendum to the above: It should be obvious, but to make it explicit: under this construction, not all censorship is a breach of someone’s free speech rights (e.g., S.2 or other equivalent guarantees). The two are not synonyms.
Re: Re: Re:7
Its better yo use censorship when a violation of free speech rights occur, and moderation when it is community management. That way there is a distinction between what is a rights violation and what isn’t. To do otherwise is to increase the power of those demanding that their speech is never moderated.
Re: Re: Re:8
I use rights violations for rights violations and censorship for censorship. Doing otherwise is sloppy thinking.
Re:
Koby, please tell me how free speech was in jeopardy if the satire site that was moderated was still available on every other social media network, as well as…
and this will really blow your fucking mind…
you could go directly to their site and still view it? Crazy, amirite?
And I will always use Alex Jones as an example, he has been banned from all major social media platforms, but somehow, people are still able to follow him and listen to his drivel. How has his free speech rights been infringed?
Re: Re:
See also: Donald Trump.
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Re: Re:
It’s censorship because they weren’t allowed to voice an opinion the owners did not agree with. That’s it. It wasn’t a threat of violence, it wasn’t something like doxxing that could aide violence, just an opinion.
Re: Re: Re:
And where is jeopardy to free speech, and where is the 1st amendment violation?
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Re: Re: Re:2
Yeah, that’s not how that works. 1A declares a RIGHT to free speech, it’s not like free speech only exist in relationship to government or the 1A. Ditto “censorship”
Why are so many of you confused on this?!?
Re: Re: Re:3
But it doesn’t declare a right to free reach. You are not entitled to an audience or a platform at someone else’s expense. Twitter banning you for posting speech that violates its TOS doesn’t violate your 1A rights—it only means you have to find somewhere else to post your speech.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Yes, and? (unless directed by government, which oh looks, it was sometimes!) We covered this.
Why are you still talking? You’re trying to imply I said it DID violate 1A (again, when not directed by government, which it was sometimes) which is just lying on your point. Or maybe your reading comprehension is poor.
Re: Re: Re:5
You didn’t, I did. You’re the one who seems to think Twitter deleting any post is a 1A violation.
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Re: Re: Re:6
How are you this fucking confused? I said nothing of the sort. (unless, again, the FBI told them to) You seem to get conflate the two different issues constantly.
Re: Re: Re:5
So where did the FBI threaten Twitter, implied or otherwise?
No, you CANNOT use your paranoia of the FBI as evidence the FBI can threaten Twitter. That is on you, and I suggest you drop your support for white supremacy to lessen the chances of the FBI investigating you.
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Re: Re: Re:6 Congress Was
Congress was threatening Twitter. Mike’s friends at NetChoice were serving as the go-between for congress, and BigTech, relaying congressional threats to Twitter and presumably the other major players BigTech that finance NetChoice.
What the Twitter files have revealed about Mike’s friends at NetChoice begs the question how NetChoice can be a plaintiff before the SCOTUS when they were the key player in the conspiracy between the FBI, Congress, and BigTech, basically serving as the messenger between two of the three players.
Re: Re: Re:5
“Why are you still talking?”
Because his kink is to argue with idiots who are wrong until they learn their lesson or go away.
Re: Re: Re:3
Please point to the text of the 1st amendment that states you have a right to use social media even if the owners of the social media sites do not want to associate with you?
I mean seriously, where does the constitution state you have an inalienable right to use Twitter?
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Re: Re: Re:4
Did not say that. Seriously people, reading comp, it matters.
Re: Re: Re:5
From your earlier comment:
Since anybody who gets kick off Twitter can go anywhere else and say the same thing that got them banned from Twitter, where is the censorship?
And if it’s censorship, where is the “jeopardy to free speech” that Twitter is doing?
Just like my living room, if I invite you in and you act like the asshole you have shown yourself to be, I would give you the boot and kick you out as well… deservedly so.
Re: Re: Re:6
It’s honestly funny as fuck Matt keeps insisting that banning someone over something they said which the site owner doesn’t like is censorship, but absolutely refuses to call Musk kicking off people making fun of him censorship.
Matthew Bennett is a waste of space desperate for someone to give him some modicum of significance for being an asshole. He genuinely thinks scrabbling around on his knees with his lips surgically grafted to Elon’s prosthetic he uses in place of a sperm dispenser is going to reward him with 72 Muskvirgins. The best he’s got is maybe cosplaying as Natalie Mars and hope Chozen uses him to live out a power fantasy.
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Re: Re: Re:6
That’s not even vaguely what “censorship” means and it’s hilarious you guys want to keep on redefining words to fit your world view.
Here, I’ll give you the ACLU version: https://www.aclu.org/other/what-censorship
“Censorship, the suppression of words, images, or ideas that are “offensive,” happens whenever some people succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others. Censorship can be carried out by the government as well as private pressure groups. Censorship by the government is unconstitutional.”
Re: Re: Re:7
If I kick you out of my living room because you were acting like an asshole, have you been censored?
If Twitter kicks out of their property because you were acting like an asshole, have you been censored?
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Re: Re: Re:8
I mean if we were having some sort of public discussion, and you kicked me out based on something I said, yes, of course.
The word has a definition. The definition is not what you want to pretend it is. I don’t care. Suck it.
This is all very interesting because there’s clearly some commonly held fictions you guys tell yourselves in small groups. “It’s not censorship unless it’s the government or someone holds a gun to your head and threatens to kill you if you say it ANYWHERE”. But of course that’s nonsense.
Re: Re: Re:9
No. He said it took place in his living room. That’s private property. How is it censorship when you could literally continue saying what you wanted if you were standing in the street outside his house?
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Re: Re: Re:10
Because it’s censorship? It’s just censorship on private property. Just like twitter. Why is this so hard to understand?
You seem to be suggesting it’s not censorship unless he puts a gun to my head and says I can’t say it, ever, but fuck no, that’s not the definition at all.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Has his living room been declared a public forum by the SCOTUS? You fucking idiots are amazing. You get super specific when it suits your needs ‘Social Media cannot be regulated like a common carrier because its not exactly like telecom’ and then turn around and equate twitter to your fucking living room when that serves your argument. You have no consistency what so ever in your arguments.
Twitter is a public accommodation and as already declared by the SCOTUS part of the modern Public Square.
Re: Re: Re:11
Twitter has never been declared a public forum you fucking idiot.
And don’t forget, you’re the fucking idiot that doesn’t know the difference between a public house and public housing.
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Re: Re: Re:12
“SOCIAL MEDIA allows users to gain access to information and communicate with one another on any subject that might come to mind. With one broad stroke, North Carolina bars access to what for many are the principal sources for knowing current events, checking ads for employment, speaking and listening in the MODERN PUBLIC SQUARE, and otherwise exploring the vast realms of human thought and knowledge. Foreclosing access to SOCIAL MEDIA altogether thus prevents users from engaging in the legitimate exercise of First Amendment rights”
Is Twitter not social media?
Re: Re: Re:13
So then why has nobody been able to successfully use that as a means to get their account reinstated after having been given the ban hammer?
Re: Re: Re:13
Again, I note that Packingham was never about whether social media services were a true public forum (in the sense that they must host all legally protected speech), but about whether the North Carolina state government’s decision to bar sex offenders from accessing any social media service was unconstitutional (and SCOTUS said it was). Packingham has never been construed as turning any social media service into a true public forum or giving anyone the absolute legal right to have an unimpeachable spot on any social media service. Every time you cite Packingham as saying something it doesn’t actually say and doing something it doesn’t actually do, a Biblically accurate angel gets turned into an ant.
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Re: Re: Re:14
“true public forum”
No such thing. Just a term you made up to move the goal posts. Go fuck yourself.
Re: Re: Re:15
Legally, no. But I say “true public forum” (and provide parenthetical context for that descriptor) to separate it from the colloquial idea of a public forum, which—whether you like it or not—is the way several court rulings have used it to describe social media. Even Packingham, your supposed silver-bullet citation, brings up the idea of the “modern public square” without actually declaring social media services to be public squares in the official, legal, “they must host all legal speech or run afoul of the First Amendment” sense.
Re: Re: Re:13
Once again, you prove only that the point of Packingham is far above your nonexistent comprehension skills, Chozen
Nobody literate would believe Packingham said a social media platform is a public square, or that denying access to a social media platform is censorship.
What they arequite clearly saying was that the government denying this person from accessing any and all social media platforms (that all together, not separately, form the public square) is censorship (“You can’t say that anywhere.”
Every time Chozen cites Pruneuard, he proves only that he is as illiterate as ever and everyone else but him is right.
Re: Re: Re:11
“Twitter is a public accommodation and as already declared by the SCOTUS part of the modern Public Square.”
Cool I’ll just wait until the heat death of the universe for you to provide any evidence whatsoever.
Re: Re: Re:7
Points for accurately relaying the ACLU definition.
So censorship, according to the ACLU, requires two conditions to be true. First, that there is a “suppression of words, images, or ideas that are ‘offensive.’” Second, that the purported censor “succeed in imposing their personal political or moral values on others.” I totally agree that moderation satisfies the first condition to the extent of that website, as the website in question (say, Twitter) has told you you can’t say certain things on that website that it deems offensive.
But if you then go to a different website (say, Facebook, or Gab, or Techdirt) completely unapologetic about the views that got you kicked off the first site, how is the second condition fulfilled? They haven’t imposed their values on you. They certainly haven’t imposed their views on the people who hold those views already (generally, “we want to be on a website where we don’t have to put up with assholes”). And have they really even succeeded at the first condition? After all, you’re here, and ain’t nothing Twitter can do about it.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Please point to the 1st Amendment Right of “association.” If a public accommodation had a 1st Amendment Right to refuse service then then most of the civil rights acts would be unconstitutional because no public accommodation could be forced by statute to serve minorities.
It is not coincidence that BigTech defenders make the same constitutional arguments segregationists made during segregation.
Re: Re: Re:5
A pub is not run by the government.
Public housing is run by the government and cannot turn away people of color due to public accomodation case law.
A pub CAN refuse service, but only if the customer refuses to follow the rules of the establishment. “No shoes, no shirt, no service” is a thing.
But then again, I’m not surprised you would want the law to force a pub to host YOUR vile speech.
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Re: Re: Re:6
“Public housing is run by the government and cannot turn away people of color due to public accomodation case law.
A pub CAN refuse service, but only if the customer refuses to follow the rules of the establishment. “No shoes, no shirt, no service” is a thing.”
If a pub turned away persons because their race that pub owner is going to jail.
Re: Re: Re:7
And nobody has said otherwise you fucking imbecile!
Speaking of pubs, have you found out which public housing project serves the best cocktails?
Re: Re: Re:7
Discrimination based on religion or immutable characteristics (race, ethnicity, gender, sex, marital status, sexual orientation, etc.) is a narrow exception that still proves the general rule. Discrimination based on one’s speech or conduct is fair game, especially (though not necessarily) if the rules make that clear (which these platforms’ ToSs do).
Re: Re: Re:3
The First Amendment literally says “Congress shall make no law” abridging freedom of speech. It doesn’t assert a generic “right” against all parties. Are you really this stupid?
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Re: Re: Re:4
Second person same thread who failed at reading comp. Amazing. There’s something really special about a guy who didn’t understand calling you stupid over it.
Re: Re: Re:
It takes some really strong drugs for Bratty Matty to hallucinate that twitter could stop the Babbling Bee from publishing its shatire.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Except they did. ON Twitter. Which is censorship. No, they don’t have to stop them from publishing “everywhere” for it to be censorship, that’s not how that works.
Re:
Calling the Babylon Bee “satire” is like calling Fox News “a news network”: They can declare themselves whatever they want to be, but that doesn’t make it true.
Re: Re: You can tell a good amount about someone by what they find funny
To that I’d add: … And if that’s the label you’d describe them with you just said a lot more about yourself than you might have thought you did.
Re: Re:
Hey, they’re the proud guardians of the one conservative ‘joke’ so need to be protected by Elon at all costs. Without that, they’ve got nothing… Or rather, they’d have to admit they’ve got nothing.
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Re: Re:
BB is funny as hell. Yes, they’re making fun of YOU. I wouldn’t expect you to like it. Doesn’t make it not satire.
Foxnews is less biased than WaPo or CNN by a wide margin. More honest about their bias than NYT.
Re: Re: Re:
It’s not unfunny because it’s offensive per se; it’s just boring.
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Re: Re: Re:2
It’s making fun of your worldview, you don’t like that, so you aren’t going to find the (very on point) commentary funny. Duh. So what?
Re: Re: Re:3
Usually, comedy punches up.
When it pnches down, it’s called harassment, abuse, and a million other names, and is never funny.
If you consider abuse of the other funny, that informs US about how you view the world.
Then again, you implied you wanted to SHOOT us.
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Re: Re: Re:4
It’s only called that by SJWs typically.
Re: Re: Re:4
The punchline to every conservative ‘joke’ is far right groups attacking the targetted minority and lawmakers im red states trying to use the machinery of government to strip away their human rights. Hilarious
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Re: Re: Re:5
Yeah, yeah, everyone who disagrees with you is racist, bigot yadda yadda. Get a new schtick.
Re: Re: Re:6
Well, if the jackboot fits…
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Re: Re: Re:7
It doesn’t, and it’s all just meaningless at this point. Been crying wolf for decades.
Re: Re: Re:8 That Jackboot seems to fit you pretty well.
Well yes, a lot of conservative punching down masquerading as humour is the same recycled false claims and talking points they’ve been spouting for a hundred years to fight social progress. The anti trans groomer sh*t you pretend is humour now is the same material you used against gay people, against non white immigrants, against irish people, italians, jewish people, against black people… Lots and lots of cries of ‘wolf’ from loud, obnoxious racists who are trying to keep their ignorant bullpoop in the mainstream under the guise of ‘It’s just a joke, guys’ followed by the same insincere cries of persecution from those same lupine alarms. ‘Why oh why are people calling us bigots because we’re always targetting minorities?’
Re: Re: Re:6
Not surprised your lack of comprehension has the cart before the horse here.
Re: Re: Re:3
I’ve found some conservative humor funny. I’ve found humor about liberals, Americans, Christians, people with autism, etc. funny, and all of those are at least somewhat related to me. I don’t find the Babylon Bee funny. It has nothing to do with it making fun of my worldview; like I said, I find plenty of other things that do that funny. The Babylon Bee just isn’t one of them. Sorry, but that’s just how I feel about it.
Your assumption that I find it unfunny solely because it makes fun of my worldview (or at least tries to) is only based on your confirmation bias; it is not based on anything I said (indeed, it is directly contradicted by what I said) or how I actually feel. I find the Babylon Bee boring. I also don’t really understand why conservatives do find it funny, and there are plenty of things I don’t think are funny but which I can understand why others do find it funny. That’s just how I feel. There is no “point” I’m making other than that you’re wrong about why liberals don’t find it funny. It is, in fact, not the case that one finds something unfunny naturally because it makes fun of one’s own worldview.
Does that mean you’re wrong to find it funny? No. You’re only wrong in how you dismiss others’ reasons for disagreeing.
Re: Re: Re:4
The Babylon Bee’s entire sense of humor can be summed up with one phrase: “own the libs”. Seriously, its raison d’être is to piss off liberals by punching down at the marginalized and trying to be as “politically incorrect” as possible. Whether that approach results in anything that could be considered genuine satire instead of being bigotry and hatred expressed as a “joke”…well, it’s a matter of perspective, really.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Wow you don’t find something that makes fun of your world view funny. I’m shocked!!!
Here is the difference between me and you. I get that The Boys is a satire of Trump. Homelander is Trump. But its well done and I can appreciate the humor and quality storytelling.
Re: Re: Re:3
No, it’s superhero satire written long before Trump was relevant in any way.
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Re: Re: Re:4
In the Seth Rogan produced Amazon series it absolutely is Trump. But its well done and hilarious.
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Re: Re: Re:4
….and then then the show came out, which took pains to make Homelander Trumpian, dumbass
Re: Re: Re:
… said nobody demonstrating the slightest capacity for rational independent thought, ever.
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Re: Re: Re:2
You can’t just say that every time and pretend you’re making a useful comment. You are….not smart, man.
Re: Re:
The Babylon Bee is for people who think Mallard Filmore is too edgy
Re:
Doxxers are already violating TOS.
As is revenge porn, harassment (even if old Twitter doesn’t think most of the reports sent to them constitute harassment), and… just about everything you fuckers complained about.
Phone numbers
I recently saw a post on Mastodon where someones Twiiter account was suspended and would not be reactivated until they gave up a phone number.
Elmo is just being a jerk but on a selective basis.
There is no consistent policy.
Re:
To be fair, this has been Twitter’s policy on any account they fear may be spammy. It happened directly to our own “That Anonymous Coward” who was banned under the old regime for making a joke that Twitter misread. But they wouldn’t let him back unless he added a phone number, which he refused to do.
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Re: Re:
Doesn’t twitter also have a policy on Doxing?
Heavy forbid Musk is now evenly enforcing Twitter’s Doxing policy.
Re: Re: Re:
Chozen, aren’t you the idiot who thinks a public house is public housing?
Didn’t you also insist we were all wrong and that DirecTV would be forced to carry OAN?
Re: Re: Re:
They do, but where in the original comment I was responding to did anyone dox anyone? Indeed, where in this entire thread did anyone dox anyone?
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Re: Re: Re:2
ElonJet is very clearly a form of doxxing. (Again, most doxxing is actually publicly available info, you’re just making it much easier to find for more people)
How hard are you trying to gaslight, man?
Re: Re: Re:3
It very clearly was not, unless you are a total and complete fool.
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Re: Re: Re:4
ElonJet very clearly fits this definition: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
“Doxing or doxxing (originally spelled d0xing) is the act of publicly providing personally identifiable information about an individual or organization, usually via the Internet.[1][2][3] Historically, the term has been used interchangeably to refer to both the aggregation of this information from public databases and social media websites (like Facebook), as well as the publication of previously private information obtained through criminal or otherwise fraudulent means (such as hacking and social engineering). The aggregation and provision of previously published material is generally a legal practice, though it may be subject to laws concerning stalking and intimidation.[4] Doxing may be carried out for reasons such as online shaming, extortion, and vigilante aid to law enforcement.[5][6] It also may be associated with hacktivism.”
So. You’re lying. Bold facedly.
Re: Re: Re:5
…ADSB information is public.
And the PIA program, while a good move in the “right” direction, is largely worthless as the data can be verified with other datasets.
This isn’t the same as someone packaging up publicly available information into one neat bundle, posting it online and claiming it isn’t doxxing. Which has pegit happened before.
What ElonJet does is prove that Elon’s Jet is flying. And that the PIA program is pretty damn useless at protecting anyone’s privacy.
Now, if Elon is paranoid enough that, I dunno, Chinese kill teams and Russian-backed Israeli assassins want to assassinate him, which certainly seems like what he’s afraid of (note to Elon: don’t suck up to dictators), maybe, just maybe, he should buy better fucking security? Rest of us though…
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Re: Re: Re:6
Obviously you didn’t read that definition at all. Posting public info is still doxxing, you’re just making it much easier to get to.
When a doxxer posts someone’s address, they usually get it from a public source like a deed or DMV or whatever. The fact that the source is public doesn’t make it not doxxing.
You’re also lying about what ElonJet does. It shows sky track, where they’re likely landing.
It’s doxxing, no way around that.
Re: Re: Re:7
So, it’s only doxxing when it involves Elon then?
That is what you’re implying here.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Not even vaguely what I said. Can you people read, like at all?
Re: Re: Re:9
ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION, TERRORIST.
I DID NOT GET AN ANSWER.
IS IT FUCKING DOXXING IF IT INVOLVES ELON OR NOT?
NO FUCKING WORD GAMES.
Re: Re: Re:5
ElonJet provided information about an airplane. There would be no way to tell from that information who is on that airplane. It could be Elon since he owns the plane, but it might not be. For example, Taylor Swift got some attention for her plane being in use something like 200 days in a year, but it was usually not her on the plane.
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Re: Re: Re:6
It provides information about planes it suspects is elon’s, where they are, where they’re going. That’s doxxing. If you provide my home address, but I’m not home, is it not doxxing? No, of course it is. You have vastly increased the chances that someone who wants to hurt me or just harass me can find me. ElonJet does the same thing.
I know it would be more convenient for you to pretend it isn’t doxxing, but it is.
Re: Re: Re:7
Wow, I am old enough to remember when everybody was delivered a book that had the names, addresses and phone numbers of everybody who lived in your city.
Was the phone book constantly doxing people?
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Re: Re: Re:8
Are the deeds at the townhall doxxing you? Sorta….except neither is available to every looney in the entire country (or indeed world) And the white pages (I’m old too) don’t exist anymore for basically that exact reason.
Again, doxxing absolutely includes repackaging publicly available info in a way that’s much easier for more people to access online. If you tell X100 Million people to hate you and also how to find you some of them will take up that offer, even to just “SWAT” you, which kills people all the time, actually (cuz cops are idiots). That’s WHY doxxing is so scary.
Again, I’m old too, but are you litterally too dumb to understand why that’s a problem?
Re: Re: Re:9
White pages don’t exist anymore because dead tree papers have been replaced by infinitely reproducible computer bits.
So white pages, online or otherwise, are still doxing.
How fucking stupid are you… fucking idiot.
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Re: Re: Re:10
They don’t exist now because no one wants their personal location info out on the internet. The scales are massively different.
Yes, what was once distributed to a 10 mi radius from your home for free back in the 80’s is the actual definition of doxxing today. Don’t publish someone’s home address, that’s super bad, quintessential Doxxing. Mostly cuz several hundred million people can do something with that.
What part of this do you not get?!? R U DUMB?
Re: Re: Re:9
” And the white pages (I’m old too) don’t exist anymore for basically that exact reason.”
The white pages don’t exist anymore because of technology, not whatver stupid reason you just pulled out of your ass.
Re: Re: Re:3
“Again, most doxxing is actually publicly available info”
That may be the new dumbest thing you have ever said bro.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Well the fundamental question is this thread is what does the P in PIA number stand for?
Much like your first stupid comments in the first Twitter Files dump you stepped in it when you didn’t realize Musk had a PIA number and the information being posted was private, not public as claimed by the media.
Re: Re: Re:3
Well the fundamental question is this thread is what does the P in PIA number stand for?
Not really, dickleak.
The real question is why didn’t he just turn off his transponder if he didn’t want to be tracked?
Should have been pretty simple for a smart guy like him.
Re: Re: Re:4
Probably because without a transponder you have to stay below 10,000 feet and away from large airports.
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Re: Re:
What Chozen said. Twitter has a policy against this. This is the same process that occurred before, with deleting the tweet (which you know, you’re just being misleading on purpose). The only relevant thing is you liked the censorship (and the people doing it) before and you don’t like the censorship (and Musk) now.
You REALLY should stop writing about twitter, man. You’re biased af about the whole thing and it’s super obvious.
Re: Re: Re:
Nowhere in the original comment was any violation named. What is the “this” that you believe Twitter has a policy against?
You keep saying that and you continue to be wrong (laughably so). For years I’ve challenged many of Twitter’s moderation decisions and highlighted when I thought they went too far and when their policies are silly.
But this is not commentary on policy. This is commentary on Musk going back on what he CLAIMED his policy would be.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“Nowhere in the original comment was any violation named. What is the “this” that you believe Twitter has a policy against?”
That would be Doxing. You were too fucking stupid of the events in question to know that the information wasn’t “public” and Sweeney at Elon jet had cracked Musk’s, and others, PIA number. Now as usual your dumb ass is spinning trying pretend that the P in PIA doesn’t mean private you lying sack of shit.
Another question about Sweeney and this whole public/private thing is Sweeney’s father works for the FAA and Sweeney’s algorithm is opaque. It is possible if not probable that Sweeney is using proprietary FAA knowledge to crack the PIAs of high profile individuals.
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Re: Re: Re:3
Correction, his father works for American Airlines but the point still stands. His father has access to non-public information about PIA numbers that Sweeney may have used to crack the PIA numbers of his targets like Elon.
Re: Re: Re:3
Really, ADSB data is public data, and recently was used to track the journey of Volodymyr Zelenskyy to the US, along with the fighters that escorted that flight. Volodymyr has a much more dangerous stalker that Elon, like one who commands a countries military forces. That right military aircraft transmit ADSB unlesss engaged in a war.
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Re: Re: Re:4
It’s still doxxing. Most doxxers get a victims home address from DMV records, or homeowner deeds. Publicly available. Still shouldn’t be posted on the open internet.
Re: Re: Re:5
Most doxxers get a victims home address from DMV records, or homeowner deeds.
Well holy shit!
Wait until you hear that the DMV requires a license plate to be clearly visible on cars, and house numbers clearly visible (if you care about mail or if it catches on fucking fire).
You’re fucked!
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Re: Re: Re:4
What does the P in PIA stand for you sack of shit?
Re: Re: Re:5
Want to see every aicraft in fligh using ADSB, visit flightaware.
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Re: Re: Re:6
And how do I know which one belongs to Elon Musk?
He has a PIA number.
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Re: Re: Re:2
It’s Doxxing. Twitter very clearly has a policy against doxxing.
Musk very clearly is doing what he said he would — he’s letting them back on (as in not banned). They’re still suspended until they delete the offending content, which has been the policy FOREVER, and you KNOW this, meaning you are attempting to mislead. As you often do with Twitter and Musk, which is why you should stop writing about it.
You liked the censorship before and don’t like it now. (and man, you loved Gadde and hate Musk, damn). Maybe you did make a token objection here or there (I dunno, I stopped reading last time this site was update ~2005) but you most DEFINITELY defending their policies strenuously, as you do now, after the fact, by pretending what the FBI did (through MANY different channels) was OK.
2021: IT”S A PRIAVTE COMPANY AND IT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS (Gadde sure is great, ain’t she?)
2022: OMG MUSK IS SO EVIL AND DUMB AND THE RICHEST MAN IN THE WORLD OBVIOUSLY DOESN’T KNOW WHAT HE”S DOING
Re: Re: Re:3
I’m not seeing any discrepancy there. People can agree with you that Musk can do whatever he wants with Twitter and still think what he’s doing is a bunch of “look at how divorced I am” emotionally driven bullshit.
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Re: Re: Re:4
The contradiction is where he’s trying to pretend this is different from how Twitter has always worked. Also he’s trying to pretend Musk isn’t doing exactly what he said he would: these people are “allowed back on twitter” — they aren’t banned, they’re suspended until they delete the offending info. Again, same as always.
Re: Re: Re:5
The removal isn’t the problem; it’s the hypocrisy. We’re not comparing Musk Twitter to old Twitter in this case; we’re comparing Musk’s claims to Musk’s actions and noting a discrepancy.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Well no, Masnick is pretending to (you too, I guess?) Musk did what he claimed. These people are allowed back on twitter (they’re not banned). They still have to delete their offending content to not be suspended, literally the same as forever. (as I pointed out below, that’s Inquistorial confessional af, but it’s what the policy has been for a long time)
Re: Re: Re:7
This is something Musk said several times he would not do.
Also, you can argue that the argument Mike is really making isn’t the one he is expressing with the words he uses all you like, but you only say that that can’t be what he is arguing not because of what Masnick actually said but because that doesn’t jibe with your view of reality. That doesn’t change the fact that Mike isn’t saying what you claim he is. You are attacking a strawman. Stick with arguing about whether or not Musk is a hypocrite rather than whether or not his policies are consistent with Twitter’s old policies (at least on this front), because Mike isn’t going to argue against that; you would just be wasting your time.
Re: Re: Re:5
No, I very clearly have said that he’s rediscovering all the reasons why Twitter had policies in the first place. It’s just that he’s only reacting when he feels HIS safety is at risk, and doesn’t give a shit for the rest of his users.
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Re: Re: Re:6
You can argue Musk is less objective when he’s scarred for his kids, if you want. But twitter still has a policy against doxxing, this fits that definition.
And since you seem inclined to lie about it, here is one common definition:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
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Re: Re: Re:6
“No, I very clearly have said that he’s rediscovering all the reasons why Twitter had policies in the first place. It’s just that he’s only reacting when he feels HIS safety is at risk, and doesn’t give a shit for the rest of his users.”
The first reply to his post is flagged as “abusive/trolling/spam” but it is not. This post will be flagged as “abusive/trolling/spam” but it is not.
You have multiple article you have written about “bad faith actors”
https://www.techdirt.com/2021/09/03/challenge-content-moderation-politics-how-do-you-deal-with-bad-faith-actors/
Your own users gleefully admit to using the “flag this comment as abusive/trolling/spam” feature in bad faith to get people they don’t agree with to leave, and you do nothing about their bad faith actions. Yet you accuse Musk of being a hypocrite. Take the log out of your own eye first Mike.
Re: Re: Re:7
There are some people I flag on sight essentially regardless of what they’ve put in their comment because even if one particular comment isn’t immediately obvious as trolling, I have pattern recognition.
If you don’t like eating the consequences of your earned reputations, that’s why the AC handle is available.
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Re: Re: Re:8
“There are some people I flag on sight essentially regardless of what they’ve put in their comment because even if one particular comment isn’t immediately obvious as trolling, I have pattern recognition.”
As I said you admit you use the feature in bad faith. Mike has done absolutely zero to put a stop to his because Mike is a hypocrite.
Re: Re: Re:7
Whether we agree with you is irrelevant to the fact that you and your fellow trolls spam articles like this one with insults, baseless accusations, and other such meandering bullshit that you’ve come to be known as trolls. Your actions have consequences; in this context, the consequences for making the posts you’ve made are “you’ve become known as a disruptive presence in the comments and you get autoflagged as a result of your reputation”. Don’t like those consequences? Change your actions.
You don’t have to agree with everything posted here—in articles or in comments. I’ve disagreed with both Techdirt writers and other regular commenters in the past. But I didn’t flag their posts because of mere disagreement because that would be ridiculous. What you have to do, whether you like it or not, is at least make an attempt to argue in good faith—which means listening to people who don’t think like you do, accepting the idea that you might not get it right in a given discussion, and making claims that are backed up by credible information from credible sources that says exactly what you claim it says.
I’ve had Mike correct me before when I fucked up an interpretation of a legal citation; I thanked him for the correction and integrated the “fix” to my knowledge accordingly. I do the same to you and you yell obscenities at me because you can’t stand the idea that maybe you’re wrong about anything. If you don’t want to get flagged, consider the possibility that you may be wrong and continue a discussion from that viewpoint.
The commentariat here is more than happy to hear out opposing ideas in these comments sections. But what most of us don’t like is someone who comes here to hurl abuse, JAQ off without respecting the answers either given or already available to their questions, and otherwise act like an asshole. Start from “I’m willing to listen and consider new information” rather than “I’m right, you’re wrong, fuck you” and maybe you won’t get flagged as much. Your choice.
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Re: Re: Re:8
“you’ve become known as a disruptive presence in the comments and you get autoflagged as a result of your reputation”.
Not true becuase my posts were flagged immedialty. I changed my posting sytle in response to all my posts getting flagged. I’ve seen plenty of new people come here and have thier posts imediattly flagged.
SO YOU ARE FUKCIING LIAR!
That said the feature doesn’t say
“flag this poster as ….”
It says “flag this comment as”
So even if we take your fucking lies at face value you still admit that you use the flag feature in bad faith.
Re: Re: Re:9
Yes, that’s my whole point: Your posts get flagged because people see your name and know they’re about to read a bunch of bullshit. Pattern recognition is a thing other people have.
Stop acting so shitty if you don’t want to deal with the consqeuences of your shitty actions.
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Re: Re: Re:10
“Yes, that’s my whole point: Your posts get flagged because people see your name and know they’re about to read a bunch of bullshit. Pattern recognition is a thing other people have.”
#1 I didn’t beocme combative when I got here until after my posts kept getting flagged for no reason.
#2 Mike has said that he will not ban users except for illegal acts. Only posts will be flagged for content.
That you admit to use the flag post feature as a defacto tool for banning is a clear and cut faith of bad faith action.
Mike having writing extensively about “bad faith actors” while allowing people like you to abuse the report comment feature on is own blog in clear bad faith proves that Mike is a complete and total hypocrite and has zero leg to stand on complaining about Musk being a hypocrite.
Re: Re: Re:11
Your posts got flagged for having bad takes with no basis in reality as well as mis- and disinformation. Once you got combative, the flagging simply got easier. Argue in good faith with credible sources/citations of fact and maybe you won’t get flagged, fam.
Yes. So what? Your post went through before it got flagged; does that now mean you’ve been banned? 🙃
You are a troll. If Mike refuses to ban you and the rest of us can’t do anything else to stop you from carrying out your deliberate acts of mental self-harm (i.e., posting here), flagging your comments is the best option we have to tell you “you’re not welcome here and you’re not adding anything to any discussion whatsoever”. Take the hint.
Re: Re: Re:9
Reputation is a currency to be earned.
You started at 0, and since then has lost more than Musk has lost money this year.
Re: Re: Re:10
No reasonable person has ever claimed Chozen is not a troll; that a single one of his posts did not fuly deserve the “trolling” flag.
Re: Re: Re:9
Perfect example of why you get flagged… you act like a childish fucking asshole.
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Re: Re: Re:10 You Flag Everyone
Your clique flags everyone who disagrees with you in any way.
Don’t pretend its just me you lying sack of shit.
Re: Re: Re:11
Not true. Someone disagreed with me in this comments section about my views on censorship in a way that didn’t involve insults, shitty interpretations of laws/legal precedents, or linking to less-than-credible sources. I didn’t flag them, and I won’t flag them unless they turn to doing that sort of shit—which, incidentally, is all the same shit you do.
Re: Re: Re:11
Perfect example of why you get flagged… you act like a childish fucking asshole.
Re: Re: Re:11
Don’t pretend its just me you lying sack of shit.
This is the problem – you’re unwilling to accept that you’re an asshole.
Re: Re: Re:11
That you aren’t the only person flagged for being an asshole doesn’t change the fact that you weren’t flagged for merely disagreeing with others here. It just means that you aren’t the only asshole.
Re: Re: Re:7
So you seriously lack basic object permanence to such a degree that you think nobody reading your gaslighting is capable of scrolling up to debunk your claims by reading the posts for themselves?
Re: Re: Re:3
It’s not.
And, no, Twitter changed its policy against doxxing, and seems to only enforce it against people Musk dislikes.
No, he is not doing what he said he would. He explicitly said he’d leave ElonJet up. And then didn’t. And then banned people who simply MENTIONED that ElonJet existed, not people who posted Elon’s realtime info (which, again, is not doxxing under any reasonable definition of doxxing).
Your motivated reasoning is showing.
Furthermore, Musk also promised that he would no longer ban people or suspend accounts, he’d only decrease the visibility of what he declared “bad” tweets.
He’s totally gone against what he said.
You can repeat this all you want and it never makes it any more correct. I complained about Twitter’s policies before, but at least I understood where they came from. I don’t hate Musk. I’m just pointing out his hypocrisy in declaring one thing and doing the opposite.
And, again, Musk is free to do whatever he wants. I’ve never said otherwise. But people like me can call out his hypocrisy and when he promises one thing but does the opposite. Even more hilarious is how he whines about how the old Twitter did things… but now does the same thing, but without the principles and detailed policies that Twitter used to have.
I’m sorry that you seem unable to cognitively process the fact that Musk is a total fucking hypocrite, and that I can and will continue to call out his hypocrisy.
But, it’s funny to watch you lose your shit in your rush to defend your god king.
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Re: Re: Re:4
I’m going to simplify this since your seem intent on obfuscation through verbosity:
It’s doxxing. Stop lying. (yeah, a link to the doxx is just as much doxxing as providing the info directly, grow up)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxing
“Doxing or doxxing (originally spelled d0xing) is the act of publicly providing personally identifiable information about an individual or organization, usually via the Internet.[1][2][3] Historically, the term has been used interchangeably to refer to both the aggregation of this information from public databases and social media websites (like Facebook), as well as the publication of previously private information obtained through criminal or otherwise fraudulent means (such as hacking and social engineering). The aggregation and provision of previously published material is generally a legal practice, though it may be subject to laws concerning stalking and intimidation.[4] Doxing may be carried out for reasons such as online shaming, extortion, and vigilante aid to law enforcement.[5][6] It also may be associated with hacktivism.”
Oh and:
Yeah man, I’m totally the one with motivated reasoning. /sarcasm
Musk did what he said he would. Not what you creatively want to reinterpret he said he would do. Let’s just say you’re very “motivated”
Re: Re: Re:5
And what personally identifiable information did the accounts that were suspended publish? The plane information is not personally identifiable and it was publicly available in the first place. What else is there?
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Re: Re: Re:6
Well, no, the plane information is personally identifiable and fact that’s part of what ELonjet tries to provide.
And a home address is the clearest example of doxxing, is publicly available info. THAT’S WHAT DOXXING IS.
You are wrong on all counts. Why are you wasting my time?
Re: Re: Re:7
“Why are you wasting my time?”
Why are you here? Other than being addicted to being publicly humiliated, I mean.
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Re: Re: Re:4
“It’s not.”
If Doxxing was exclusive to private information then there really wouldn’t need to be a policy against Doxxing. If the information were private there would be larger legal issues at play specifically ‘how did the individual get their hands on private information.’
That would be more of a question for Law Enforcement.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“Twitter’s moderation decisions”
Most likely after crawling on your hands and knees to your mistress Vijaya Gadde for permission.
Propagandists frequently criticize their masters with their masters consent for it not to look to obvious.
Re: Re: Re:3
Nope
Musk is using Twitter to supplant his "Boring Company"
He figured that tunnel boring machines were not the fastest way of driving a company into the ground.
Re:
It probably is one of the few profit-turning companies he has.
Anyone?
Who would like to see Elon:
Do 1 year of
Customer service
Cashier
?
Free speech is never Vulnerable until no ONE IS LISTENING.
Re:
No CEO would ever last a full shift of the average retail job.
Re: Re:
It would be fun to watch, though.
Re: Re: Re:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_to_the_Floor_(British_TV_series)
The Sainbury’s one was enlightening for the CEO when he found out what draconian rules (staff not allowed to talk to each other when re-stocking shelves) were being implemented by middle managers and that he knew nothing about.
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Re: Re:
Oh that’s some classic commie shit right there. The workers should get all the profits, amiright? How DARE people build a business and get rich?
Re: Re: Re:
The idea that Musk possibly getting slightly less obscenely wealthy really gets under your skin for some reason.
Here’s a hint: he’s not going to reward you for your battered-wife levels of devotion.
Re: Re:
Why does this sound like the concept of the TV show, Undercover Boss?
Re: Re:
Some might be able to; CEOs ain’t just a big company thing.
Re:
1 Year of being a miner in his father’s blood emerald mine.
No management position. If he’s not digging the fucking emeralds out, it doesn’t count.
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Free speech is not a global phenomenon, just as life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is not a global attribute.
In mixed company, the lowest common denomenator is not even relevant. Educated people know that. Uneducated people do not.
Notice how the conversation devolves so fast online. It was not always that way.
Re:
Irrelevant.
What?
Lmao, bullshit.
Re:
It has been in my experience.
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Your hypocrisy is showing
Firstly, I think a policy banning people over doxxing (doxxing is OFTEN “publicly” available info, mind) is far more legitimate than doing so over politics (which clearly happened, even if you refuse to admit the government directed bit was 1A violation) or for using the wrong pronouns. You can agree or not that this Elonjet account is an actual threat but it’s definitely a form of doxxing and this is all consistent under that policy.
Secondly, this is the EXACT same protocol that happened before: Delete this tweet (and admit your wrongdoing, it all has an Inquisitorial air) and let back on. What Musk was offering was not to ban them forever regardless. You LOVED this process when Gadde was doing it for political reasons, Masnick, why do you hate it now?
I have no idea if YOU understand “free speech”, Masnick, but I know you don’t want it equally applied.
Re:
Where did either of the individuals dox anyone?
Yes. Except Musk insisted he wouldn’t do that. Which is the whole fucking point.
I didn’t say I loved it. I criticized it in the past when it happened before, and I’m not criticizing it now. I’m criticizing Musk saying he would do one thing and then doing something entirely different.
How do you not see that?
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Re: Re:
[quote] Where did either of the individuals dox anyone? [/quote]
You seem to be trying, repeatedly, to pretend ElonJet isn’t doxxing when it very clearly is. That means you’re either very dumb or lying, on purpose.
[quote] Yes. Except Musk insisted he wouldn’t do that. Which is the whole fucking point. [/quote]
No he didn’t, that’s your second lie. Nor are they “banned”. (another lie) They’re suspended. Musk is letting them back on. Just gotta delete that little sin….
Did Musk say “I will let them back on and they won’t be forced to delete the information I consider a clear threat to my family as per usual twitter procedure”? Could you go ahead and find that tweet for me? No? YOU”RE LYING.
[quote] I criticized it in the past when it happened before, and I’m not criticizing it now. [/quote]
Well THAT’s not true, not in kind nor degree, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and pretend your bias keeps you from seeing it.
[quote] How do you not see that? [/quote]
Because your accounting of events is NOT TRUE, Masnick. Seriously, I’m not even being mean on this — you should not write about this subject, you’re unable to be objective, or even not “hilariously biased” about it. You have NO CASE, and you are making stuff up to pretend there is one. Yes, these tweets violated a policy. Yes they were allowed back on. Yes they have to do the same delete and shame procedure (which I happen to think is awful) as always. Yes, Musk did what he said he would. But you simply hate him too much to see any of that.
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Re: Re:
Here’s you sucking Gadde’s girlcock just a couple months ago: https://www.techdirt.com/2022/10/28/elon-musks-first-move-is-to-fire-the-person-most-responsible-for-twitters-strong-free-speech-stance/
Oh bonus points for unironically trying to claim “Censorship is free speech!” Now I realize that’s the kinda orwellian re-definition you rely on a lot to mislead (lie).
Of course that was all before twitter files came out and showed that basically none of what you said in that post was true, but you SURE did love her moderation policies as you thought you knew them and were intent on defending them at the time.
You keep on trying to piss on me and tell me it’s raining, and it’s just not working. How about you stop?
Re: Re: Re:
You’re not very good at holding multiple thoughts in your head, are you?
Re: Re: Re:2
By “multiple” do you mean “one?”
Re: Re: Re:3
He seems to have mastered the one. Sadly, it’s just “I hate Techdirt for no reason”.
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Re:
ahahahahah someone is really dedicated to stamping out dissent, damn.
Liberals are so hateful.
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Re:
It wasn’t “public” Musk and the other high provile individuals Sweeney was tracking had Privacy ICAO Address, PIA. Sweeny cracked the PIA numbers with an algorithm.
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Re: Re:
Interesting. Regardless I’m pointing out that even if it were public it would still be doxxing.
Re: Re: Re:
The two of you really need to get over your lingering tension and just check into a hotel room.
Re: Re: Re:
If it’s already public, it’s not doxxing, according to the very definition you posted earlier. You dense motherfucker.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Literally the opposite of true
You don’t read so good, huh? “Dense motherfucker”
Re: Re: Re:3
Hey matty unlike your meager sexual conquests we aren’t going to give in just to get you to stop acting like an asshole for five minutes.
Re: Re: Re:3
Alright, so you’re claiming that ElonJet (and the journalists) doxxed Elmo. This implies I can somehow use the fact that his jet landed in a city to find and stalk/harass/whatever him, yeah? How does the location of the jet allow me to do this? In other words, how is the jet location personally identifiable information? We don’t even know if he’s on it.
Like, there’s an “underpants gnomes” problem here: step 1 locate Elmo’s jet, step 2 ????, step 3 find Elmo. You claim step 2 is possible so explain. Without a step 2 there can be no doxxing here. Support your claim!
Elon is committed to freedom of conservative speech such as CSAM
Re:
He can arrange a “Child Pornography Action Caucus”!
Re:
Given how much other heinous content(harassment, bigotry, dehumanization and general jackassery) is lumped into the category in an attempt to defend it from criticism it’s not like it would be that much of a stretch to include CSAM as well honestly.