Elon Musk Throws A Shit Fit And Fires Engineer Because Not Enough People Are Viewing His Personal Tweets

from the little-sensitive-elon dept

There’s a school of thought among some who believe that the sole reason why Elon Musk bought Twitter was because of a gaping void in his soul and a deep-seeded need to be loved and adored by everyone, with the belief that he could do that better if he ran Twitter, and without the fear of having any of his tweets — or my goodness — his entire account suspended. A friend of mine has sometimes referred to this phenomenon as “cancelled man syndrome,” which is a condition in which extremely powerful people are so afraid that they might, at some point, face some consequences for their actions, that they build this entire fantasy world around “cancel culture” and “woke ideologues” coming to get them.

Under this theory, a big part of the reason why Musk bought Twitter was (1) to protect his account from any sort of reprisal and (2) to continue to fill that void, by showing up as the grand liberator, to be loved and adored.

I’m still not convinced I believe this theory. But, as more and more news comes out, it at least adds some additional evidence in support of it. The latest is from the always excellent Platformer News, where Zoe Schiffer and Casey Newton have quite a scoop concerning Musk throwing an absolute shit fit because his tweets are getting less engagement than in the past, and even firing one of the only two remaining principal engineers at the company, after they suggested maybe people were just kinda tired of all the Elon stuff:

On Tuesday, Musk gathered a group of engineers and advisors into a room at Twitter’s headquarters looking for answers. Why are his engagement numbers tanking?

“This is ridiculous,” he said, according to multiple sources with direct knowledge of the meeting. “I have more than 100 million followers, and I’m only getting tens of thousands of impressions.”

One of the company’s two remaining principal engineers offered a possible explanation for Musk’s declining reach: just under a year after the Tesla CEO made his surprise offer to buy Twitter for $44 billion, public interest in his antics is waning.  

Employees showed Musk internal data regarding engagement with his account, along with a Google Trends chart. Last April, they told him, Musk was at “peak” popularity in search rankings, indicated by a score of “100.” Today, he’s at a score of nine. Engineers had previously investigated whether Musk’s reach had somehow been artificially restricted, but found no evidence that the algorithm was biased against him.

Musk did not take the news well. 

“You’re fired, you’re fired,” Musk told the engineer. 

I mean, Musk has a well known reputation of “rage firing” people for telling him stuff he doesn’t want to hear. A few years back there was a story of him randomly rage firing an engineer at Tesla’s Gigafactory after Musk saw something that didn’t work right. And even though the engineer had nothing to do with the broken system, he was the nearest person to Musk, and he asked Musk to clarify what he was angry about, so he got fired. The story in that article sounds quite similar to the one in the Platformer piece. Musk hears something he doesn’t like, and fires someone on the spot.

But the piece doesn’t end there. It talks about the morale (uh, low) at Twitter:

“We haven’t seen much in the way of longer term, cogent strategy,” one employee said. “Most of our time is dedicated to three main areas: putting out fires (mostly caused by firing the wrong people and trying to recover from that), performing impossible tasks, and ‘improving efficiency’ without clear guidelines of what the expected end results are. We mostly move from dumpster fire to dumpster fire, from my perspective.”

Musk’s product feedback, which comes largely from replies to his tweets, often baffles his workers. 

“There’s times he’s just awake late at night and says all sorts of things that don’t make sense,” one employee said. “And then he’ll come to us and be like, ‘this one person says they can’t do this one thing on the platform,’ and then we have to run around chasing some outlier use case for one person. It doesn’t make any sense.”

The San Francisco headquarters, whose landlord has sued Twitter for nonpayment of rent, has a melancholy air. When people pass each other in the halls, we’re told that the standard greeting is “where are you interviewing?” and “where do you have offers?”

And, for people who are relying on a Twitter job for important reasons, it puts them in a quandry:

“When you’re asked a question, you run it through your head and say ‘what is the least fireable response I can have to this right now?’” one employee explained.

Also, Musk’s obsession with his own stats is just all kinds of pathetic.

Dissatisfied with engineers’ work so far, Musk has instructed employees to track how many times each of his tweets are recommended, according to one current worker.

Then there’s this, which maybe explains the extended tech outages and problems we’ve seen on Twitter this week:

“As the adage goes, ‘you ship your org chart,’” said one current employee. “It’s chaos here right now, so we’re shipping chaos.”

There are so, so, so many other stories in this article, you should go read the whole thing. However, I will leave you with one more. We were among the first to point out that the FTC’s consent decrees with Twitter are kinda important, and it seems like Musk was (1) unaware of them, and (2) didn’t care once he found out. As the article notes… the time may be running out on that attitude:

Since Musk took over, those steps have become an afterthought, employees said. “His stance is basically ‘fuck you regulators,’” we’re told. 

The FTC plans to audit the company this quarter, we’re told, and employees have doubts that Twitter has the necessary documentation in place to pass inspection. “FTC compliance is concerning,” one says. 

That’ll be fun.

Anyway, go read the whole thing, as it’s a stunning piece of reporting on what Twitter is like these days.

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Comments on “Elon Musk Throws A Shit Fit And Fires Engineer Because Not Enough People Are Viewing His Personal Tweets”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Musk hears something he doesn’t like, and fires someone on the spot.

Hmmm… that phrase yelled in anger… “You’re Fired!!”…

I’ve heard that before, but just can’t quite put my finger on where it was that I heard it.

Wonder where it came from…

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Because the one datapoint showing that they DID exist turned out to be fraudulent. (i.e. the pranksters admitted the joke)

There’s no timeline of events that states they admitted the hoax before it was confirmed that they didn’t exist, so I’m gonna call bullshit on that.

It was confirmed that they didn’t exist by checking LinkedIn and Twitter’s internal Slack and email systems. In other words, they found “positive evidence for a negative result”. Not so impossible after all, apparently.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Yeah, so that’s not how any of that works, actually, but I’m honestly not that interested in explaining it to you.

The short story is that positive information of a positive fact that is contradictory is not the same as positive information on a negative fact.

Like, we haven’t actually proved that “Rahul Ligma and Daniel Johnson” don’t exist, we only proved that those two guys were not named that.

Fuck damn you’re a waste of breath.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

If journalist could find evidence that Rahul Ligma and Daniel Johnson were made up, why wouldn’t there be evidence that this story is made up?

I’ll give you a hint: it’s because you’re spewing personal opinion as fact with nothing to back it up.

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David says:

Re: Re:

Whatever the wording, there were few jobs more short-lived than being part of Trump’s cabinet. According to which side of his mouth you are listening to, it’s because he’s the greatest genius in hiring people or because he only hired anyone because they were begging him on their knees.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As a person, you strike me as a satire account in general yet you seem to really believe most of the deranged shit you say.

Holy moly, that’s the biggest projection you’ve ever projected! And that’s saying something!

You didn’t answer my question, by the way.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

the authors of this article have provided 0% evidence it’s actually true

And yet, we can infer that the contents of the article in re: Musk’s actions and the morale at Twitter are at least plausibly true. We have plenty of other evidence of Musk’s actions as head of Twitter from which to make that inference. That evidence doesn’t favor your claims, my dude.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If you’re going to get technical evidence is the duty of someone making an assertion and the authors of this article have provided 0% evidence it’s actually true.

The report comes from an experienced tech journalist, the comments about the workforce and the working conditions are in line with what’s previously been reported, and the comments on Musk’s behaviour are in line with reports from his other companies. Not to mention that the very public deployments of features(and their bugs) on Twitter are indicative of the “whimsical” nature of Mr Musk mentioned in the report.

Now, you’ve made the assertion that the story isn’t true. Fulfil your duty and provide some evidence.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

It’s an “experienced” reporter with obvious bias

His criticizing your supreme leader doesn’t make him biased.

writing an article based upon pure hearsay with no evidence.

Hearsay means reciting something that someone else told you. The comments in the report are first-hand witness accounts. Boy, facts sure are hard, huh?

Most of the rest of what you said is noise.

I guess you’d be the expert on that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

It’s an “experienced” reporter with obvious bias

You can’t separate bias from journalism. Someone must decide what to distill out of the mass of available data, what facts to check, how much context to include (and explain), and how much needs to be left out for time and space. If you want to read a few paragraphs that sum up a 65-page legal ruling, someone must choose what to include and what to leave out.

Bad journalism pretends both sides are equally valid. Good journalism reports the facts, even if those facts say one side is irredeemably awful or full of shit. False neutrality is propaganda.

If multiple reporters from multiple outlets across a broad span of both time and sociopolitical ideology say “our sources, as well as other external evidence and data, say Elon Musk is a jackass”, maybe take that as a sign that the man you’ve been defending from the slings and arrows of online criticism isn’t exactly the golden god you imagine him to be in your wet dreams.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You can’t separate bias from journalism.

I mean, yeah you can, at least to an extent. Specifically doing that is a lot of what they used to teach in Journalism schools. This guy doesn’t have a great history on that. (Of course not, he comes from the Verge)

It’s effectively an unsourced story. Could be true, no particular reason to think it is. Hell even if we had the guy’s name it would just be an allegation, and we don’t even have that, either, also no other witnesses on the record.

Story is objectively shitte.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

you can, at least to an extent

That’s my point: Humans are hardwired to have biases about everything from the taste of food to “is this person dangerous”; we can’t ever be fully “objective” about anything. We can curb our biases as best we can when doing so becomes necessary, but that’s about all we can do.

Could be true, no particular reason to think it is.

Other than a history of reporting from multiple sources in re: Musk’s behavior both prior to and after his purchase of Twitter (not to mention public antics like the “pedo guy” debacle), sure, no reason whatsoever to think the story is at least plausible~.

even if we had the guy’s name it would just be an allegation

You sure do seem eager to get that guy’s name. Curious. 🤔

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

That there will always be some bias does not refute that this person is particularly biased

And I’m not trying to refute that. Because I don’t know if they are biased that way. If you want to claim they’re biased against Musk, you’ll have to prove that bias⁠—and whether said bias is overwhelming enough that they’d willingly lie about the story they reported.

I have a bias against Musk. But if he does something at least nominally good (that isn’t him doing an about-face on one of his own fuck-ups), I’m willing to give him credit for it. For what reason can’t you curb your obvious pro-Musk bias to meaningfully and unconditionally criticize him for literally anything?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Dude, the whole story is based on the account of ONE anonymous witness who has every reason to lie. (and not a terribly good reason to be anonymous) It’s a junk story. Like really bad.

But if he does something at least nominally good (that isn’t him doing an about-face on one of his own fuck-ups), I’m willing to give him credit for it.

I completely do not believe you.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Dude, the whole story is based on the account of ONE anonymous witness who has every reason to lie.

Except that he would be getting fired for the quotes, which were all a lie, since, according to you, Musk would definitely know who said it.

Make up your mind. He can’t both have every reason to lie, and a pretty good reason for not lying.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:17

How the FUCK are you this dumb? The guy obviously got fired, he’s just lying about why and how.

If you fucked up in some colossal way, or just didn’t follow orders, would you say that or just lie and pretend Musk was being a temperamental bitch?

Which is why you shouldn’t write a story based on such a witness.

Your inability to think through a scenario is not my wanting to have it “both ways”. Jesus wept.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Which is why you shouldn’t write a story based on such a witness.

You remain unable to read. From the article: “according to multiple sources with direct knowledge of the meeting.”

The fired engineer is not the only source.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

I completely do not believe you.

That’s because you refuse to acknowledge that Musk fires people that dare to even hint at that he perhaps may be wrong. People have been fired by him for even daring to talk about who got fired and when the media got wind of it Musk tweeted this:
I would like to apologize for firing these geniuses. Their immense talent will no doubt be of great use elsewhere.

Not believing something that is just the culmination of a pattern that has been going on for months, if not years, is denying reality. It’s the hallmark of a fanatic.

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Violet Aubergine says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Musk’s past shitty behavior is reason enough to remain anonymous. The asshole has fucked with Tesla owners systems just because they had the temerity to not be Musk stans.

Musk’s rabid fans are more than enough reason to want to be anonymous. They don’t want to be SWATTED to death by some jag who thinks the possibility of somebody dying is the height of humor.

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Rico R. (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Because no one actually says “You’re fired” in real life, dumbass.

What is this, a screenwriting dialogue class? Is there not enough subtext for you in the way Elon Musk is portraying himself here? This is a real news story, not a screenplay.

By the way, even if most bosses don’t simply say “You’re fired,” when firing someone, it doesn’t mean that none do. I’d believe that Elon actually did say those exact words in this instance before I’d believe any of the nonsense you seem to be spouting!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Go ahead. Find a real recording or reliable transcript of someone telling some “you’re fired” in real life.

You are asking for something that no sane boss would ever record. Considering your reasoning here you won’t accept someone telling you that their boss told them “You’re fired” because it doesn’t fit the answer you are actually looking for. The nature of things is that it’s much more likely that someone was told “You’re fired” to their face than not, denying that is denying that there exist horrible bosses.

Musk’s way running Twitter can only be described as dysfunctional so him firing someone on the spot is entirely believable. If you don’t think so, then you have conveniently forgotten his email to the employees that said “work extremely hardcore or be gone” (paraphrased), which was followed up with creating dorm-rooms at the HQ.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You are asking for something that no sane boss would ever record.

I’m asking you for something that effectively does not exist and doesn’t happen. Grow the fuck up. If you find it “believable” just because you hate Musk that just means you’re an idiot, not that it is at all likely to have happened.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I find it believable because I myself know a person who was told “You’re fired”. You have given no reason why that would be unbelievable other than your personal experience and a lack of recordings that would not be expected to exist either way. That is simply not convincing.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I find it believable because I myself know a person who was told “You’re fired”.

For the record, I don’t actually believe you, or possibly your friend. (like, was it a pizzeria, or something? I’d find that slightly more believable than the corporate world, with HR Depts)

If true, it would be the only instance I know of, even third hand. (but it probably isn’t true)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

lol, so now not only does the exact quote have to be used, but it has to be one of a range of specific industries you’re looking for in order for the anecdote to count.

Keep carrying that truckload of water for a rich white dude you supposedly don’t care about, Matt. I’m sure one day he’ll recognize the blip that is your existence.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

For the record, I don’t actually believe you, or possibly your friend. (like, was it a pizzeria, or something? I’d find that slightly more believable than the corporate world, with HR Depts)

My mother was a teacher, actually. She was actually going to retire at the end of the year, but the principal had an irrational hatred for her and wasn’t well liked, and she fired her and ordered her to leave in the middle of the school day just before the standardized testing period purely out of spite.

Regardless, your incredulity is not an argument. You have given zero reasons as to why my story is unbelievable to the point where you’d disbelieve it out of hand like that. That it’s unusual doesn’t mean it’s nonexistent.

Also, the industry is entirely irrelevant. You made the assertion that nobody ever says it IRL. Any counterexample would disprove it.

If true, it would be the only instance I know of, even third hand.

I acknowledge that it’s uncommon. I only dispute your assertion that it never happens at all.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Well, we don’t like Matthew Bennett and would like him to leave.

Some of us, myself included, have had enough of him polluting the place to the point where we’re actually willing to take the L and get flagged to express how much we hate him.

Whlie I do understand why Mike does it, it’s definitely not enough if the jerk in question doesn’t want to leave.

Violet Aubergine says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I had a boss in the late 80’s fire me with “You’re fired,” because he was being a coward and refusing to tell me directly I was fired and was hoping I would come to that conclusion and fire myself for him. I finally told him I wasn’t psychic and wasn’t going to predict what he might say. After a few iterations of that he lost his cool and shouted it. I wish I had replied with, “You’re welcome coward,” but I didn’t think of that until a few minutes after I left his office.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Because no one actually says “You’re fired” in real life, dumbass.

This is the weirdest thing for you to get so bent out of shape about. There is no possible way for you to prove your claim, and it seems extremely unlikely that nobody ever says that. It may not be common, but your claim is just preposterous.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I’m not getting out of shape about it, it’s just a sign (among several) the story is bogus. I don’t feel the need to “prove” anything to you yahoos, and in fact you would find the statement “no one says that” entirely uncontroversial were it not that it casts doubt on a story you want to be true.

Basically I think you all know what I’m saying is true, you just refuse to admit it cuz it instantly became one more partisan bone to pick.

I’m partisan af but that’s still super dumb.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I’m not getting out of shape about it

And yet, here you are, getting out of shape about yet another story concerning Elon Musk’s behavior as the CEO of Twitter. If you’re going to lie, Mutt, at least tell one that isn’t disproven by your comment history.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I totally get out of shape about Masnick’s bullshit. I find it enraging

Maybe you should stop reading this site if it makes you so emotionally compromised that you spend hours commenting about how much you hate this site and the guy who runs it. Hate is a terrible waste of time, y’know.

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Bloof (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Nobody actually walks into a company they’ve just bought carrying a sink either… Oh wait.

The man is a cartoon character designed to appeal to 4chan, the standards for normal human behaviour do not apply.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Says a lot about you that you believe Musk is worth defending in any and all contexts.

I thought it was a bit of a stretch actually but also as a bit of chutzpah was pretty funny. I guess you’d have to like watching liberals getting pissed off to really enjoy it (which I do, of course) but I coulda come up with something better I think.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Please after Elon bought Twitter Mike was on his knees undoing Elon’s pants […] for some “donations” to the COPIA institute.

[citation desperately needed]

Seriously, Musk was rich long before he publicly said anything about buying Twitter, and the first thing Mike did after the purchase was to criticize him. This is pure speculation at best and deliberately dishonest at worst on your part.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, no, I fucking love DeSantis.

…you realize as long as education is provided by government (it really shouldn’t be, seriously, privatize the whole thing) then curriculum will be subject to politics. It literally has to be.

Tax dollars pay for the education (with little to no free market forces intervening to give parents a choice) therefore the curriculum will be determined through the democratic process.

Yeah, I get it, you’re real upset the majority of voters (in FL, at the least, but also probably most places) disagree with you but seriously, get fucked. No, that democratic process over a shared resource (which really shouldn’t be) is not “censorship”. Just heading you off at the pass, here. I know your argument, it’s fucking dumb.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I AM from a country where dystopian censopship is a fucking NORM.

And even I agree with Mike here.

The behavior is not from progressives, but “conservatives, aka, white supremacists/Nazis, aka people like you and their fucking simps.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Except Musk still engages in that sort of “censorship”, as you call it, which is exactly what Mike claimed, and in some ways, Musk does it even more egregiously.

I also don’t see how it’s even remotely dystopian, regardless of who the target is.

And you still haven’t actually answered my question or addressed what I said. If anything, you just contradicted your earlier claim by providing an explanation that would make it less likely that Mike was trying to soliciting donations for the COPIA Institute from Musk. But yeah, still no citation for any of your claims.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Y’know that makes no sense, right?

People get told “You’re fired” by the person directly, verbally, and in-person; that’s the whole claim that we’re arguing about. You wouldn’t have that if you work from home because you don’t typically have verbal, in-person communications with your boss (assuming you’re not self-employed). You’ve just explained why no one would expect you to ever hear the words “You’re fired” from your boss like this.

I’m reminded again that you must be very young.

I remind you yet again that you are very wrong about that. You really need to stop jumping to conclusions about age like that.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

The short answer is this story is imaginary.

The story was reported by two veteran journalists who cover this as their main beat, and have for years, who are famous for their deep connections within companies. They have tremendously strong reputations. You really think they’d blow up their credibility on a story this easy to disprove?

And I’ll note that Musk has yet to deny it.

Separately, for all your talk of “no one actually says that” note the other links in the article that link to other examples of him doing the same thing at Tesla. It may be true that almost no one says “you’re fired.” But there’s pretty compelling evidence that Musk does exactly that.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

And I’ll note that Musk has yet to deny it.

Why would he? Seriously some things should not be dignified. It’s a junk story based on the account of one anonymous source who has every reason to lie. It’s a good thing they’re self-employed because by rights they should be unemployable for having published this.

note the other links in the article that link to other examples of him doing the same thing at Tesla.

You should probably check out those links, because they don’t actually do that. Newsflash: Masnick lies about the “evidence” he presents all the fucking time.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:5

bhull242 asked you to cite instances of Mike Masnick lying and you reply with a Techdirt search?

A search for “twitter files”. He has lied EVERY time he has mentioned them. Just a few days ago he wanted to pretend the Twitter Files never mentioned requests by Trump or the DNC. Absolutely amazing.

You’re not winning any of these arguments

Well yeah, I am, regardless of whether you realize it….but you would if you were smarter.

Ben Jones says:

Re:

Wasn’t it that OTHER guy with notoriously thin skin, and no competence at anything, with a[n alleged] drug habit, no morals, problems having lasting relationship, never actually worked a day in his life, destroys all he touches, has a desperate need for people to like him, and lies about his qualifications to over up the fact all he has is a degree in money-astrology [or ‘economics’ as they like to call it] they bought from UPenn with daddy’s money.

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NotATwit says:

I find use of the word “engagement” in this context to be a bit strange. Typically, I have heard this term used to describe activity by two consenting individuals where they come to some mutual agreement, usually one of marriage.

I guess use of the term originated at twitter, idk.

What Elon wants apparently, is an unremovable megaphone attached to everyone’s ears and charge you for the annoyance.

James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re:

What? I could see funny, but how did this get an insightful?

Social media ‘engagement’ as a metric has been repeatedly discussed online and specifically here at techdirt for years. The word engage and its variations like engagement have half a dozen definitions, some with multiple parts. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/engagement

This has got to a weird article to hop on after having missed the pop culture train on everything from ST:TNG to Facebook to be that confused by the word.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

I don't think it's Musk that's having a shit fit.

Never heard of Platformer, appears to be just a substack newsletter. In any case I wouldn’t regard Casey Newton nor Zoe Schiffer (or for that matter anyone from The Verge) as a neutral source. This has all the “anonymous sources say” hallmarks of a Trump era WaPo/CNN article, but it’s even worse because they’re citing an obviously disgruntled employee.

(Platformer is withholding the engineer’s name in light of the harassment Musk has directed at former Twitter employees.)

And why keep the employee’s name anonymous, exactly? Musk knows who this theoretical employee is, if the story is real. Obvious answer is there’s at least some distortion of the truth, possibly a lot, and whoever it is doesn’t want future employers to know they’re a liar.

Real answer is that Musk probably fired someone for not doing what he directed (i.e. tweaking or not tweaking the algo in a certain way) which he has quite publicly promised to do. He’s not particularly know to be temperamental, but MDS sufferers like you sure do like to claim that.

This article is trash and you’re trash for sharing it. Go back to covering IP law.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Never heard of Platformer

Just because you’ve never heard of it, doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid source of news and information as I highly doubt you know everything, even though you love to act like that almost daily.

And who made you the arbiter of what is a valid source or not anyway?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I mean, we all know why you do. It’s because Musk supposedly “owns the libs” – and frankly he’s not even good at that.

He’s pretty good at that (not the best) and to the degree I’m a fan it’s mostly over that.

But no, I mostly just hate your liberal opinions for being dumb, not especially because of Musk. (i.e. you need “owning”)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

you need “owning”

You keep saying that but the one thing you’ve never provided is a reason why. Is it because you feel threatened? Is it because the existence of people having a different opinion makes you insecure? Is it because you’re being hurt? Like… anything at all. Anything besides the equivalent of “because I can”. Because you are spending a lot of time just to shit on nobodies you believe are beneath contempt.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

And why keep the employee’s name anonymous, exactly? Musk knows who this theoretical employee is, if the story is real.

Because of the rabid Musk Fanbois.

But… Musk may not know who this “theoretical” employee is, other than “he was a principle engineer”. He’s not the sort to remember the names of the janitorial staff or other “unimportant” people, after all.

Oh, wait. He got rid of the janitorial staff. Well, you know what I mean.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not particularly a Musk fan

And yet, here you are, defending him as if you were on every article about him (and even a few that aren’t). Don’t lie to me if you’re going to make your lying that obvious; you’re not that clever and I’m not that stupid.

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Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

“I’m not particularly a Musk fan”

Let’s see.

Does he only jump up and down when Twitter is mentioned?

Does he also jump up and down when Tesla is mentioned?

Does he also jump up and down when Musk is mentioned outside those two companies?

Does he spend all his waking hours jumping up and down about matters involving or even tangential to Musk?

He’s right. He’s not a Musk fan.

He’s a Musk SUPERfan.

About a baby step from being a psychotic stalker, in fact. If Musk actually gave a monkey’s about the safety of his offspring, he’d be hiring a large number of private dicks to track our persistent little chum to make sure he goes nowhere near the Musk family.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

It doesn’t take an argument to point out that despite you claiming to not care about Musk, you show up each and every time his actions are examined and criticized.

I mean, it’s not exactly a secret, and it’s not a secret why you do it. You’re heavily personally invested in Musk because you think that he’s the one who’s going to bring the right-wing incels back into power so they can laugh at the trannies and the fembois and the wimmin again. And you get outraged when this gets brought up. Absolutely apoplectic. The best response you have to that is just calling everyone dumb.

So no, I don’t think we’re going to do as you say. You can just keep getting mad until something bursts.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

‘I’m not a fan of that team!’ screamed the person wearing an official team jersey, an official team hat festooned with official team pins, waving an ‘[Insert Sports Team here] are #1’ flag in one hand and clutching a laminated lifetime pass for every one of their games in the other.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Bratty Matty isn’t a stalker, he doesn’t have the resources for that. Stalkers actually pose some kind of a threat when the topic of their fascination continues to not know they exist. Not so much for Matty. Matty’s the kind of fan who will masturbate to Musk but never do anything more than that. For him the highlight of his life is mocking critics as the most hardcore edgy thing he will ever accomplish.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not particularly a Musk fan

Says the guy who comes in here daily. sobbing and crying that big bad meanie Mike has hurt his feelz because he wrote an article critical of your idol Musk.

And don’t forget about all the times you cry and whine to Mike asking him to quite writing mean articles about Musk because that hurts your feelz too.

And lastly, you are also the one who whines to Mike asking him to quit talking about Mastodon because it hurts your feelz and makes you afraid when people leave Twitter for Mastodon.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You have only ever commented here to mention Musk and/or (after Musk bought it) Twitter. You have only commented here to either defend Musk or attack his detractors, even in articles that have nothing to do with Musk or Twitter. The arguments are the same ones made here in other cases as well, including about free speech, moderation, and thin-skinned employers. If they are bad arguments, they are not exactly unusually bad for this site by any metric.

Even if you’re not a Musk fanboy, your behavior is indistinguishable from one.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I love this. You were given one data point (presumably I’m older than 30, more like 35, I’m 45 btw) and you say the same dumbass shit every zoomer says when they realize people older than they are are just amazed at how retarded they are.

Most of your generation isn’t going to even reproduce and it’s fucking sad, honestly, on like 12 different levels. Your parents (mostly my age cohort, actually) failed you. It’s not your fault but you’re sad stunted things just the same.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Very little of your “data points” are to be trusted, but it is funny as fuck that all it took was two words to yank out several paragraphs of self-serving, masturbatory vitriol from you. Which, all things considered, is not surprising that you hold that generation in such esteem, because you genuinely think that Musk is the savior who’s going to let you be a misogynistic, ciswhite hack that can shit on everyone like a kindergartener who’s discovered swear words for the first time.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I love this. You were given one data point (presumably I’m older than 30, more like 35, I’m 45 btw) and you say the same dumbass shit every zoomer says when they realize people older than they are are just amazed at how retarded they are.

You were given precisely zero data points about me, yet you had no problem leaping to conclusions about my age. And more recently, you leapt to the same conclusion again even though I had already told you that you were completely wrong. Again, I am not a zoomer, nor was I born in this millennium. And yet here you are, ridiculing someone for incorrectly guessing your approximate age.

I suggest you think before throwing stones in the future.

Most of your generation isn’t going to even reproduce and it’s fucking sad, honestly, on like 12 different levels. Your parents (mostly my age cohort, actually) failed you. It’s not your fault but you’re sad stunted things just the same.

And now you’re doing the same thing again. You’re doing exactly what you accuse others of and making assumptions about age and about an entire age group based on little-to-no data.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You were given precisely zero data points about me, yet you had no problem leaping to conclusions about my age

Because you talk like a very young person who thinks they’re smart but has very little real knowledge of the world (i.e. sophomoric).

If you’re older than that, that’s quite sad, actually. You really should learn a lot more before trying to discuss things with the seriousness you attempt.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You really should learn a lot more before trying to discuss things with the seriousness you attempt.

You really are the projection-cannon here. You constantly lie, conflate and otherwise display a tenuous connection to factual reality. When asked to back some of your claims up, you dissemble – almost every fucking time.

You whole argument about age only shows everyone what a sad little fucker you are, because it’s part of your dissembling.

You have the air of an accomplished asshole that aren’t welcome anywhere. Your are just a sad little fucker that are to stupid to understand why no one likes you.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

There’s a lot of arguments that aren’t based on actual evidence. Often, when you get into the “evidence”, it’s lacking or the cite itself disproves their arguments, so it can be easier to dismiss the opponent rather than try to form a response.

So, here we are – when confronted, it’s easier to pretend that you’re talking to kids who can’t possibly understand life experience, than accept that you’re talking to peers with more or different knowledge that can be discussed. The irony is, this is way more childish than the “kids” he imagines he’s talking to would be.

Disproving the argument requires citations that can be examined, logic that can be discussed, evidence that can be falsified. “Get out of here kid” requires only imagination and a lack of self esteem.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

It’s called “ethics in tech journalism”.

It’s actually closer to the opposite of that. “Anonymous sources” are by and large not credible, at all. We saw this dozens, maybe hundreds of times during the Trump years, and very little if any of it turned out to be true.

You don’t get to make shit up just cuz you don’t like someone and pretend “Imma a journalism!”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Anonymous sources” are by and large not credible, at all.

You can consider the credibility of a story with anonymous sources by considering the credibility of those reporting those stories and the outlets in which those stories are published. You can also consider whether the information provided aligns with known facts and patterns about the subject at hand.

Lots of people will only go on the record anonymously because they fear reprisals of various kinds from lots of various sources⁠—e.g., violent randos, employers, and career politicians. That they refuse to publicly give their name should not, in and of itself, discredit the information they’re willing to give.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

This publication is not credible and no organization that has heavily relied upon anonymous sources has proved terribly credible in the past decade or so (mostly thinking WaPo, CNN, both of which were credible, once).

Fact of the matter is if you can’t cite a real source an article like this shouldn’t be published. I highly doubt there’s a real good reason for withholding this name which is part of why it’s just a trash story.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

This publication is not credible

[citation needed]

no organization that has heavily relied upon anonymous sources has proved terribly credible in the past decade or so

[citation needed]

I highly doubt there’s a real good reason for withholding this name

I’d be worried about what Musk fanbois might do to me if I were in that ex-employee’s position. That’d be a good enough reason for me to only speak to the press on the condition of anonymity. And FYI, credible reporters will ask for off-the-record proof of identity to make sure they’re not talking to some rando making wild-ass claims.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“Epistemology” is about how we know things. Since we’re talking about an opinion rather than fact and belief rather than knowledge, it’s not exactly a perfect fit to this discussion.

Nevertheless, asking for your reasoning for the opinion you gave, such as your evidentiary basis, could be considered comparable to asking you for your epistemology with regards to the claim in question. Given that there are many kinds of epistemologies, asking you such a question is perfectly reasonable.

And again, when you’re trying to convince others that your opinion is reasonable, it is perfectly reasonable to ask you to provide reasons for your opinion. That’s how discussions generally work.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I highly doubt there’s a real good reason for withholding this name which is part of why it’s just a trash story.

You have aptly proved by your behavior here that revealing the name of the engineer or any other source at Twitter would be a very bad idea since I have no doubt at all that there’s even more unhinged and rabid Musk fanboys that’ll do a lot more than just making stupid angry posts demanding Mike stop writing about how Musk is burning Twitter down.

Your crazy defense of Musk is the needle and thread needed to make you the rear-end of the human-Musk-centipede.

.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Not an argument at all, your assertions don’t even have a basis (have I demonstrated any desire to hunt down said engineer?).

I rate your reading comprehension as a FAIL.

I pointed out that there exists even more unhinged and rabid Musk fanatics than you, it has even been in the news how Musk fanatics have no problems harassing and sending death threats to people.

You are just at the harassing stage at this point, who knows where your fanatical defense of Musk will lead to.

.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re:

And why keep the employee’s name anonymous, exactly? Musk knows who this theoretical employee is, if the story is real.

I doubt Musk knows the names of any of his employees at Twitter. How would he know who said what in that article just based on the comments themselves, pray tell?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Why are you still here?”

It’s fun watching Mike have a total fucking meltdown as BigTech is pulling back and “dentations” to the COPAI institute are drying up faster than Mike’s mom’s pussy. Musk brought a total sea change to BigTech’s out of control spending which mike has lived off of for years.

Grifter Mike is a year from sucking dick in a train station if BigTech keeps pulling back and that evil fuck knows it too.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Every time you come here and is proven wrong you have a mental meltdown that ends with you hurling insults in the belief its some kind of compelling counter argument.

And it doesn’t stop there, you intentionally make up lies about TD and Mike, a sure sign of someone who have trouble containing their irrational hate of being proven wrong over and over again because it threatens your macho self image.

You also think bragging about your alleged physical stature and sexual exploits should impress or intimidate people but all it tells us is that you are one insecure fucker that desperately seek affirmation. It’s like hearing the bleating from some incel living like a slob with their mom trying to score on the internet.

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David says:

What's wrong with our society?

How does it require a sociopathic moron to create a large-scale successful future-technology company like Tesla? Why is it something that a large established individual transportation company with quite deeper pockets cannot do at least as well when change is needed at the stake of humankind’s survival?

I realize that part of the answer is bluffing investors into betting on your empty hands while everybody else folds. But that can’t be all.

And of course, Musk may just be using a mathematician’s tool set here by working towards a known starting point: he has had success starting companies from the ground up, so he starts off by razing Twitter to the ground.

But, well, he could have gotten that cheaper.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Put me in charge of a company like Ford and I could sit on my ass reading all day and the company would still be pumping out trucks thanks to the skilled people below me, the fact that he was CEO doesn’t necessarily tell you how much if any of it’s success is due to him and given the ‘masterful management skills’ he’s shown with Twitter you’ll excuse me if I doubt that Tesla’s success is thanks to him being at the helm.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Yeah I know you guys think you can just luck into being one of the richest people in the world but that just isn’t true. You think that because you hate Musk, not because there’s any evidence for it.

He did, effectively “make” Tesla, even if he didn’t found it, and he has done that with several other companies too. He has done the same thing, several times now. As an experiment, it’s pretty repeatable.

Tell yourself that Musk is dumb and lucky is very reassuring to you, and you want to believe it, but all evidence is the exact opposite.

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James Burkhardt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Some of the most successful CEOs rode market trends into big numbers and left the company before the bills came due. Lot of them came out of the dot com boom, where they escaped the consequences of the crash by selling early. Kevin O’Leary comes to mind. Once you have enough power coupons, you can make bets until one pays off. Casually chuck a billion dollars at a break even company.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I know you guys think you can just luck into being one of the richest people in the world but that just isn’t true.

Donald Trump was born into the right family and failed upward so hard as an adult that he became the president of the United States. I hate to break this to you, Mutt, but life is all about luck, and some people are born on third base thinking they hit a triple.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Yeah I know you guys think you can just luck into being one of the richest people in the world but that just isn’t true.

Oh yes you can if you dad gives you a massive starting stake, and you don’t but all dud shares. Beyond a certain point of wealth, it is very difficult not to grow your wealth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Tell yourself that Musk is dumb and lucky is very reassuring to you, and you want to believe it, but all evidence is the exact opposite.

“I don’t care about Musk! I’m not a Musk fan, I swear! But I will scream and bitch and whine and moan if you don’t get down on your knees and worship the ground he walks on! I’m not a fan! I’m not a Musk fan I tell you! I’m not!” screeched Matthew M Bennett, froth flying from his lip as he flailed his arms like a panicking parrot.

David says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I am not making Musk into a genius. Get off your broken record. My complaint was exactly that our society apparently wants a total narcissistic dysfunctional sociopath moron like him to be for navigating a company like Tesla to the head of the game. In a solitary position in an obvious growth market.

What’s wrong with the setup of our economy that it runs best on squeaky wheels like that?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Elon is merely the most recent rich psychopathic ass to run several companies.

All the big Republican superfunders? Just as psychopathic. Wall Street? Same deal.

Have I mentioned the captains of industry at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution? Most kings in the Middle Ages? General Sulla? Qin Shihuang?

It’s mostly psychopaths and jerks in power all the way down. And apparently, we like that sort of thing.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So your claim is directly refuted by all available evidence.

What available evidence? There’s a whole host CEO’s that was highly paid that failed spectacularly.

You should read Sydney Finkelstein’s book Why smart executives fail, it has ample examples of highly paid CEO’s running companies into the ground. In the book he also have a list of “Seven habits of spectacularly unsuccessful executives”, Musk exhibit many of them:

  1. They see themselves and their companies as dominating their environment
  2. They identify so completely with the company that there is no clear boundary between their personal interests and their corporation’s interests
  3. They think they have all the answers
  4. They ruthlessly eliminate anyone who isn’t completely behind them
  5. They are consummate spokespersons, obsessed with the company image
  6. They underestimate obstacles
  7. They stubbornly rely on what worked for them in the past

There’s something else you should read, an article at Inc discussing a couple of studies and how CEO’s affect a company’s performance:
Walter Frick, a senior associate editor at HBR, writes that luck does indeed play a large role, according to recent research. A Harvard Business School study finds CEOs’ impact on company success ranges from just 2 to 22 percent, depending on the industry. Another study from Texas A&M puts the figure at between 4 and 5 percent.

CEO’s aren’t highly paid because they succeed, they are highly paid because that’s the norm which is not really tied to performance in any way. If your assertion where true, all companies with highly paid CEO’s should perform better than companies with CEO’s that aren’t paid as much – instead your statement is kind of ridiculous in the face of factual reality.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I could spend effort refuting dumbshit, or just assign you some reading. Choosing the latter, the google search took 5 sec, but this is also common knowledge amongst finance types.

https://time.com/5566816/ceo-pay-income-inequality/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/24/success/ceo-pay-packages/index.html

https://www.chicagobooth.edu/review/are-ceos-overpaid

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I could spend effort refuting dumbshit, or just assign you some reading. Choosing the latter, the google search took 5 sec, but this is also common knowledge amongst finance types.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha…

Seriously, how can you fail so hard at reading comprehension. That people complain about exorbitant CEO-salaries is nothing new which is what all the links you provided mainly talked about. But your initial assertion was that having high paying CEO’s make companies perform better, so I’ll just leave this here:
A report by MSCI sampled 429 large-cap U.S. companies between 2006 and 2015. It found that during that time, shareholder returns of those companies whose total pay was below their sector median outperformed those companies where pay exceeded the sector median by as much as 39%.

During this period, incentives were the largest element of CEO pay, accounting for more than 70% of total compensation. Study authors found during this time, CEO pay did not positively impact long-term stock performance. In fact, average shareholder returns were higher when a company’s CEO was in the bottom 20% than it was for companies whose executives were in the top 20% of earners.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The reason boards and shareholders spend so much on CEO pay is because it has the most effect on corporate performance.

Plenty of CEOs drove their companies into the ground and still walked away with shitloads of money. CEO pay is so large because executives are greedy assholes.

If Elon Musk and his fellow executives disappeared tomorrow, Twitter would still chug along. If the remainder of Twitter’s non-executive staff disappeared, Twitter would crumble minutes later. Corporate executives may play a role in a company’s success, but the day-to-day labor of a company’s non-executives is what keep the company from falling to pieces. Remember that before the next time you want to kiss the ass of a billionaire who got where he is today by a combination of luck and exploiting the working class.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

That sounds nice and all but from that I’ve read so far in your responses here you haven’t been able to back up your argument that CEO’s with high salaries make companies perform better. What you just asserted above also hinges on your first unproven assertion which makes it just your opinion and not fact.

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Anonymous Coward says:

A recurring theme on TechDirt is about how companies fail and mistreat their users trying to placate Wall Street by maintaining steady growth quarter over quarter, and how this is a bad way to run a company.

But Elon Musk has owned Twitter for only one quarter, yet the other steady recurring drumbeat on TechDirt is how he has failed in running the company.

It’s not difficult to believe that TechDirt is attacking Musk because Musk has deprived woke ideologues (who are only too real, despite MM’s use of scare quotes) of the viewpoint-based censorship that Twitter formerly provided for them. Perhaps new Twitter really will fail, perhaps it won’t, but the hatred from the woke ideologues would still be there regardless of how Twitter was managed.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

A recurring theme on TechDirt is about how companies fail and mistreat their users trying to placate Wall Street by maintaining steady growth quarter over quarter, and how this is a bad way to run a company.

But Elon Musk has owned Twitter for only one quarter, yet the other steady recurring drumbeat on TechDirt is how he has failed in running the company.

These are not mutually exclusive. A public company run to placate investors with impossible “forever growth” and a private company run to placate the emotional whims of a maladjusted overprivileged man-child going through a mid-life crisis can both be destroyed independently of one another.

TechDirt is attacking Musk because Musk has deprived woke ideologues … of the viewpoint-based censorship that Twitter formerly provided for them

You can say “Black people and queers” instead of “woke ideologues”, Hyman. Trust me when I say that we won’t despise you any more than we already do if you actually tell the truth about who you really hate.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

White, coastal hyper-liberals form the bulk of woke ideologues. It was Black voters in Minnesota who defeated the woke ideologue efforts to defund the police there. It’s Hispanic people who deride “Latinx”. Queer Andrew Sullivan despises the woke gender ideologues and the attachment of T to LGB. It’s lesbians who are most vocal about repelling demands that they date men pretending to be women.

It’s hilarious that you think I adjust my speech because I care what you and your fellow woke ideologues think of me.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It’s hilarious that you think I adjust my speech because I care what you and your fellow woke ideologues think of me.

It’s hilarious that you have to keep using a euphemism like “woke ideologues” instead of outright naming the specific groups of people you don’t like (e.g., trans people). But the rest of your rhetoric constantly gives you away. We get it, you want trans people driven out of public life (and possibly into their graves), so go move to Florida and help Ron DeSantis make it happen in his state, you hateful son of a rabid bitch.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

And again, Hyman, you have been told to stop being transphobic.

If you want to be taken seriously, stop acting like an offended white supremacist and, y’know, pretend to be a decent person.

You can go cry about how your actions having consequences in Stormfront or something. Oh wait, per YOUR admission, you’ve been banned from those wateringholes as well.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Anti-vaxx stuff, huh? My wife, my son, and I are thoroughly vaccinated against COVID, bivalent boosters and all.

It is not white-supremacist to point out accurate statistics about Black crime, educational performance, and social behavior. None of these problems are due to any inferiority because of race. Segregated groups can develop varied behaviors, and unfortunately, the history of racism in the US led to original Black poverty and low quality social services including education and places to live. Now it is the soft bigotry of low expectations that is perpetuating those problems, as woke ideologues excuse antisocial behavior rather than trying to fix it. And there are plenty of white people who have fallen into the same traps.

Men can never be women nor women men. If that is transphobia, you need to blame the universe that has arranged reality in this way, not the people who see reality clearly.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Segregated groups can develop varied behaviors, and unfortunately, the history of racism in the US led to original Black poverty and low quality social services including education and places to live.

You actually had a point…

Now it is the soft bigotry of low expectations that is perpetuating those problems, as woke ideologues excuse antisocial behavior rather than trying to fix it.

…and then you ruined it with some racist bullshit.

Nobody is trying to “excuse antisocial behavior”. If anything, the people you’d decry as “woke ideologues” would probably love to do what they can to help fix the problem. But generational poverty and systemic oppression compound on one another⁠—and racist-ass conservatives doing shit like deciding that the Blackest city in America needs a separate court system isn’t helping matters much. Let’s also not forget that Black people are seen as inherently more “troublesome” than white people for doing the same things as white people do. Fair or unfair, it’s what happens in a lot of institutions (e.g., schools) where the demographics are overwhelmingly white.

I’m not here to excuse or condone criminal behavior. But I’m not going to act like Black people are all inherently more criminal these days like you seem to think they are. No ethnic group is a monolith; acting like the opposite is true, but only when the ethnic group is “Black”, is what makes you a fucking racist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Cities still have areas that are largely Black or largely white, and the largely Black areas are invariably the ones with much higher crime rates. Crimes against people and property are committed by Black people at rates disproportionately high to their share of the population. Refusing to see this and say this does not make it any less true.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Refusing to see this and say this does not make it any less true.

And that’s because racist people like you think being black is the problem. Now go look at statistics for income inequality and unemployment rates and how that drives crime rates.

Not a racist you say? Then why didn’t you look deeper instead of confirming you biases?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

If that is transphobia, you need to blame the universe that has arranged reality in this way, not the people who see reality clearly.

Oh, that’s not an issue with us. We rearrange, we reforge reality to what we see fit. We are whatever fluid gender we want to be and you can’t tell us otherwise. We will shame, humiliate, and remove anyone who stands in the way of being fabulous.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

There is no such thing as gender that is different from sex. No person can “know” that they are anything but themselves, because no person has ever had access to any mind but their own. To the extent that all men or all women have something in common, it is because they have the common experience of growing up in a body that has that sex, with the physical aspects implied by that. No one of the other sex will have those experiences.

There are men and women who do not wish to conform to the social stereotypes expected for people of their sex. In a free society, they may behave as they wish and alter their appearance as they wish. But they will never be anything but the sex of their bodies even if they choose to have themselves mutilated into a caricature of the other sex, and they should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them against the wishes of the people already there.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

There was that Babylon Bee post that was censored on Twitter for a while, awarding Dr. Rachel Levine their Man of the Year award. Masnick has repeatedly said that silencing opinions that he defines as harassment will encourage those he believes would be the victims of the harassment to speak instead, and that this increase of speech he likes means that he supports free speech. But more speech that he likes is not more free speech.

The Bee had another good one yesterday, saying that the all-woman flyover team at the Super Bowl was running twenty minutes late. To which my wife said, the all-male flyover team never arrived because they refused to ask for directions.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

There was that Babylon Bee post that was censored on Twitter for a while

Do you mean to say that the post in question was unavailable on the Babylon Bee website for as long as Twitter had that “censorship” in place? Because if so, good lord, Twitter had some goddamn power before Musk bought that shit.

Masnick has repeatedly said that silencing opinions that he defines as harassment will encourage those he believes would be the victims of the harassment to speak instead

Silencing? No. Refusing to host? Yes. Marginalized people will feel more encouraged to speak out in both cyber- and meatspace when they’re given some level of sanctuary from the bile that people like you spew at them on a daily basis.

this increase of speech he likes means that he supports free speech

Yes, thinking more marginalized people feeling free to speak their minds is a good thing sounds like support of free speech to me.

But more speech that he likes is not more free speech.

Except it is.

The primary principle of the concept of free speech says you have the right to speak your mind. By the same token, so does everyone else⁠—and when you speak bullshit, people have every right to call that bullshit what it is and criticize you for speaking it. You have no right to silence them no matter how “woke” you think they are. (Again: By the same token, no one has the right to silence you.)

Your problem is that you believe in the “I have been silenced” fallacy⁠—that is, if someone loses a spot on a platform that they’re not entitled to use, that someone is immediately and irrevocably “silenced”…even when they can use other platforms to talk about how much they’ve been “silenced” (or even repeat the speech that got them “silenced”), often to the acclaim of people ignorant enough to believe that someone on TV yelling about how they were “silenced” on Twitter is somehow unable to get their message out to anyone.

When you say bigoted bullshit, I have every right to call you out on it and dismantle your bullshit line-by-line without you being able to do any-fuckin’-thing about it. That’s not “silencing” you⁠—that’s using my speech to counter your speech. That is absolutely free speech, bitch.

The Bee had another good one yesterday, saying that the all-woman flyover team at the Super Bowl was running twenty minutes late.

Yes, yes, the Babylon Bee thinks jokes about women drivers are still funny, we get it. Maybe update your sense of humor past its early 1990s expiration date, you witless fuck.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

He believes that men can become women and women men.

[citation needed] Again, that is a strawman.

He believes that censoring opinions based on viewpoint in order to attract more people to speak opinions that he likes means that he is a supporter of free speech.

No. He believes that moderating content on a platform based on viewpoints that tend to alienate certain people and reduce open conversations will attract more people to speak opinions in general and that moderating what content appears on your platform is itself an exercise of free speech, so by supporting platform holders to moderate as they wish—even if he disagree with them—he is a supporter of free speech. It has never been about whether or not he likes the opinions being moderated against.

So, again, another strawman.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

He believes that men can become women and women men.

Please quote him as saying that.

He believes that censoring opinions based on viewpoint in order to attract more people to speak opinions that he likes means that he is a supporter of free speech.

His very own website is a pretty good example that he doesn’t believe that nonsense.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Even if we view your …. comment in the most charitable light, This Techdirt article is, in fact, commenting on another article. If anyone is attacking Musk it would be the Platformer article.

However Seeing at there is a bleeding lawsuit due to failure to pay rent on Twitter’s headquarters it… seems unlikely its just all made up BS (if nothing else in the article is compelling to you). Feel free to watch that lawsuit (and any other that pop up).

Anyhow time will show you how it turns out (well I guess you could gouge your eyes out first… so you don’t have to see the vile lies reality perpetrates)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

The article seems plausible to me. I was commenting on the steady drumbeat – new articles weekly – from TechDirt, attacking Musk and defending prior management. I believe it’s because TechDirt is run by a woke ideologue who pretends to support free speech but was pleased when the private sector gave him the legal censorship he wanted for viewpoints he hated. Now that Twitter no longer censors those viewpoints as completely as he might like, he tries to petulantly tear down the new management.

Perhaps the new management will fail miserably (it seems to be heading that way) or perhaps it will succeed, but if it continues not censoring viewpoints woke ideologues hate, woke ideologues will attack it regardless. It isn’t a question of whether the Platformer article is accurate, it’s the fact that TechDirt seeks to amplify everything it can find critical of Musk, just as Tim Cushing seeks to amplify everything critical of law enforcement that he can find.

It’s a matter of emphasis. You don’t see TechDirt writing stories about the mutilation of mentally ill children, for example, even given this latest story from a whistleblower:
https://ago.mo.gov/home/news/2023/02/09/missouri-attorney-general-andrew-bailey-confirms-launch-of-multi-agency-investigation-into-st.-louis-transgender-center-for-harming-hundreds-of-children

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Dude, if you were half as concerned about the actual government-backed censorship going on in Florida as you are with the genitals of trans people (and children), you might not be as big a joke as you are right now.

Also, fuck your bigotry. Have the balls to say who you really hate instead of using that “woke ideologue” euphemism.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The government is allowed to speak for itself as it wishes. Florida gets to organize its own institutions as it sees fit, consistent with the Constitution. If it chooses to not permit its employees to promote woke ideology as part of their jobs, that is its right, just as the FDA and CDC have the right to prevent their employees from promoting anti-vaccine policies as part of their jobs.

You woke ideologues were happy when the large generic speech platforms legally censored viewpoints you hated, but you screech like stuck pigs when Florida legally censors viewpoints you like. That’s why the site owner’s claims to support freedom of speech ring so hollow. It is not supportive of free speech to support speech you like and to support censorship of speech you hate. It is not supportive of free speech to declare that more speech is freer speech, when that more speech is only of viewpoints you support.

I hate woke ideologues who are convincing mentally ill children to have themselves mutilated to try to become something they can never be. I hate woke ideologues who take the side of criminal scum that prey on society instead of their victims (like the gangs of Pakistanis in England who repeatedly raped young girls and forced them into prostitution). I hate woke ideologues who try to force people to affirm lies and to ignore the evidence of their own eyes. Woke ideology is profoundly evil poison and will destroy any society that fails to fight it off.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You have yet to provide any actual reasons at all that the article was awful; just your personal incredulity that anyone would tell someone else “You’re fired” (which is a minor detail and also not that absurd even if rare), your personal unfamiliarity with the outlet and journalist in question (which you could fix by looking into them and how others view them), and your (frankly unjustified) distrust of anything Mike says. (Yes, you say he lies all the time, but you have yet to demonstrate even a single thing he said was actually a lie, so that cannot be used as a justification when making the point to others.) You have also failed to give any examples of warning signs outside of the whole “you’re fired” thing, which isn’t much of a warning sign.

So yeah, you basically are making assertions with no grounding at all in demonstrable reality.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Even if woke ideologues exist, there is no evidence that actual woke idealogues have had any real power over Twitter, and most people who use that term tend to use it to refer to people and ideas that don’t fall into the idea of “woke” that would actually be radical or alarming.

Basically, it’s become a story of, “The Conservatives Who Cried ‘Woke’”: Way too many instances of the claim have turned out to be either made-up, greatly exaggerated, or not at all alarming, so there is an inference that anyone making the claim is likely full of it or really thin-skinned. It doesn’t help that no one seems to be able to come up with a consistent definition of “woke” that actually applies and is alarming. It’s a self-inflicted wound.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Basically, it’s become a story of, “The Conservatives Who Cried ‘Woke’””

It doesn’t help that there’s no real definition of that word. When it was originally coined, it basically meant “person who understands systemic inequality despite not being personally affected by it”, but now it’s been applied to so many things it just means “person who disagrees with conservatives”.

Nowadays, it’s like arguing with the far right over things like “socialism” – the word has actual definitions, but when you’re arguing with someone who changes its meaning on the fly, you can’t really get any common ground.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Woke ideologues believe that a person can be a sex other than that if their body.

Woke ideologues believe that arrested people with appropriate criminal records should not be kept in jail.

Woke ideologues believe that police should be refunded.

Woke ideologues believe that illegal aliens should be allowed to remain in the country.

Woke ideologues believe that it should be forbidden to mention that Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of them population.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to criticize Muslim religious views.

Woke ideologues believe in using the heckler’s veto to shout down speakers with whom they disagree.

Woke ideologues believe that religious people should not be allowed to practice their beliefs if those contradict other woke ideology.

Woke ideologues believe that crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be allowed to live and defecate on public streets.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to evaluate people for their individual capabilities, especially if those people are members of their favored victim groups.

Woke ideologues believe that members of their favored victim groups can never be held accountable for their failures to any extent; only their disfavored oppressor groups may be blamed.

Woke ideologues hate America and its foundational values and principles.

Woke ideologues believe that their false ideology should be taught as truth in public schools.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Okay. Let’s go through them, and see which ones are actually positions held by actual woke ideologues (or anyone at all, really), then which ones are held by any of us.

Woke ideologues believe that a person can be a sex other than that if their body.

Literally no one believes this as far as I can tell.

Woke ideologues believe that arrested people with appropriate criminal records should not be kept in jail.

Also false. Liberals often believe that the bail system needs reformed so that people unlikely to flee or commit serious crimes while awaiting trial should not be jailed prior to conviction, but if the criminal record suggests that jailing is appropriate, most liberals I’m aware of fully support the arrestee being in jail even before conviction and sentencing. It is heavily nuanced, and as far as I can tell, none would agree with your statement.

Woke ideologues believe that police should be refunded.

I believe you meant “defunded”, but again, the position actually held by people is a lot more nuanced than that.

First, police are being required to do a number of things that should not be left to law enforcement (like counseling drug addicts or the mentally ill), and police departments are funded accordingly. The idea is that some of those funds should be redirected towards specific offices that would handle a lot of that other stuff police deal with that we shouldn’t have them do.

Second, while certainly not true of every police department, some have become so corrupt and so entrenched that, in order to solve the problems with that department, it may be necessary to disband it and replace it with a completely new one built from the ground up.

Third, police departments often spend money on things that they absolutely do not need. A police department does not need a tank. If a situation calls for a tank, that should be left to the National Guard or something, not for general law enforcement. Again, this is a case where the funds really should be directed somewhere where they would be used better.

Again, this is highly nuanced, and your claim includes no nuance whatsoever.

Woke ideologues believe that illegal aliens should be allowed to remain in the country.

Also no. It’s about how best to deal with undocumented immigrants, due process, paths to citizenship, those who came here as children by no fault of their own, etc. You are still ignoring a lot of nuance. I’m beginning to see a pattern here.

Woke ideologues believe that it should be forbidden to mention that Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of them population.

I mean, first, [citation needed], and second, context is important.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to criticize Muslim religious views.

To my knowledge, no one (except some Muslim extremists) is proposing this, at least not in a way that Islam would be favored over literally any other religion. (There are some liberals who say that religious views in general shouldn’t be criticized, but that’s not the claim here.)

Woke ideologues believe in using the heckler’s veto to shout down speakers with whom they disagree.

Finally, a position where people who would be liberal actually hold the position and where it’s actually a problem! Yes, this is something a lot of liberals (though certainly not all) will do. That said, this isn’t even close to being primarily a leftist thing, but I’ll just give you the point on this.

Now, I don’t hold this position, and no one at Techdirt does either, but frankly, this is at least something we can agree does happen and shouldn’t happen and which has been done by liberals, so good enough!

Woke ideologues believe that religious people should not be allowed to practice their beliefs if those contradict other woke ideology.

No; they just can’t force others to follow those practices. Basically, it’s when those religious practices affect people who don’t follow the religion that there’s a problem. Practice your religion as you wish (within reason). Contradiction is not the issue here. You are free to have and practice your beliefs even if they make you a bigot.

Woke ideologues believe that crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be allowed to live and defecate on public streets.

You’re kidding, right? That’s the opposite of what anyone wants! They shouldn’t go to jail, but they shouldn’t be left on the streets, either. This is the most ridiculously wrong claim you’ve made thus far!

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to evaluate people for their individual capabilities, especially if those people are members of their favored victim groups.

Okay, now, this does actually exist (sort of), but it is quite rare. Again, none of us believe this, but sure. I can say that this would be actual “woke ideology”, and it does actually exist. I’ll grant this one as a part of woke ideology as well, so that’s two now.

Woke ideologues hate America and its foundational values and principles.

Again, completely false. Noting flaws with America as it is now and/or as it was founded are flawed and could be improved is not hating America or its foundational values and principles. This also fails to account for the difference in opinions on what those foundational values and principles are.

So yeah, this is entirely wrong, and not an actual position held by woke ideologues or us.

Woke ideologues believe that their false ideology should be taught as truth in public schools.

I mean, with two exceptions, you have failed utterly to actually identify any part of the woke ideology. One of them (using the heckler’s veto is encouraged) isn’t something that could be true or false, nor would it make sense to teach it at all. The other (it’s “wrong to evaluate people for their individual capabilities, especially if those people are members of their favored victim groups”) could actually be taught in schools, and, under the interpretation which is both problematic and that exists, could be said that woke ideologues would encourage to be taught in public schools; however, I have never actually heard that claimed. Really, it’s more about not teaching the stuff that would criticize the “favored victim group” rather than encouraging the teaching that that is wrong.

I’ll only give this one partial credit; I can kind of see this, but I don’t think it’s particularly common among even woke ideologues, and I kinda have to read a lot into this to even get that much.

So, those are all the criteria you mentioned, and of them, only two or three would be positions held by actual people and so could form the criteria for woke ideologues that wouldn’t leave the set completely empty. Now, how does this hold up applied to us?

Well, terribly, actually. None of us hold even a single one of the positions you mentioned. Nor has Twitter or other social media companies ever moderated according to any of those criteria at all. Nor do any liberals in office hold any of these positions, really.

So, which of these do I not believe? All of them. I don’t believe a single one of the things on your list.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Okay Hyman.

Woke ideologues believe that a person can be a sex other than that if their body.

We’ve been through this. DSMV says noting about biology. And I’ll trust the experts here.

Woke ideologues believe that arrested people with appropriate criminal records should not be kept in jail.

What’s that word we have… oh right. Everyone deserves A FAIR TRIAL and DUE PROCESS.

Woke ideologues believe that police should be refunded.

The term is REFORMED, if possible. And tehre’s plenty of evidence that AMERICAN POLICE are acting like a criminal gang way worse than what the CIA enabled during the Cold War.

Woke ideologues believe that illegal aliens should be allowed to remain in the country.

UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS. And well, they already made the trek, usually at risk of their fucking lives, might as well at least let them know there’s a way to get that documentation.

Woke ideologues believe that it should be forbidden to mention that Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of them population.

Nah, we like to use that FACT to draw attention to how shit black people’s lives ARE. And that EVERYONE deserves a shot at a decent life, not just white people.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to criticize Muslim religious views.

Again, that’s wrong and doesn’t consider context.

Woke ideologues believe in using the heckler’s veto to shout down speakers with whom they disagree.

No, 1A does not guantaree you any sort of reach.

Woke ideologues believe that religious people should not be allowed to practice their beliefs if those contradict other woke ideology.

Considering that you were banned for precisely the same reason from those fine wateringholes Hyman, are your conservative pals also woke as well? Besides, I SEE YOUR COMMENT.

Woke ideologues believe that crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be allowed to live and defecate on public streets.

And you apparently believe that veterans should be treated like shit and the VA being embezzled by Trump to be a good thing. Because guess what? There’s a good chunk of veterans that become homeless.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to evaluate people for their individual capabilities, especially if those people are members of their favored victim groups.

No, and I don’t want to even touch on how wrong you are.

Woke ideologues believe that members of their favored victim groups can never be held accountable for their failures to any extent; only their disfavored oppressor groups may be blamed.

Being aware of how privileged white people are in America is NOT that.

Woke ideologues hate America and its foundational values and principles.

Funny, from all that’s happened, I thought it was Republicans, their superfunders and people like you that were against America and her principles.

Woke ideologues believe that their false ideology should be taught as truth in public schools.

So who’s passing laws against education again? Certainly not the Democrats.

At this point, you are actually harassing Mike.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Woke ideologues believe that a person can be a sex other than that if their body.

Sex? No. Gender? Yes. Sex and gender are not the same thing.

Woke ideologues believe that arrested people with appropriate criminal records should not be kept in jail.

You say this like anyone convicted of any felony (or maybe a few misdemeanors) should be kept in jail forever.

Woke ideologues believe that police should be refunded.

That’s “defunded”, and considering how more funding hasn’t let to those long-promised (yet wholly mythical) reforms for which pro-cop advocates keep claiming all that funding is needed, maybe cutting back on the budget for some police departments couldn’t hurt.

Woke ideologues believe that illegal aliens should be allowed to remain in the country.

Eh, depends on the circumstances. Not everyone was brought to this country as a young child, after all.

Woke ideologues believe that it should be forbidden to mention that Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of them population.

Only if you forget that most crime is intraracial. White people are guilty of the same charge if you compare white-on-white crime numbers and their proportionality of the U.S. population.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to criticize Muslim religious views.

Criticizing specific views is fine. Criticizing the entire religion based on a less-than-majority subset of Muslims holding certain views we would consider “backwards” is bullshit. Criticizing Islam and its most extreme adherents while ignoring the flaws of Christianity and its most extreme adherents is also bullshit.

Woke ideologues believe in using the heckler’s veto to shout down speakers with whom they disagree.

Then I guess that makes conservatives woke, considering how often they try to silence queer people, people of color, and anyone else who says things that conservatives don’t like to hear. (And by “silence”, I mean everything from “yelling down people” to “killing people”. Remind me: Who was it that shouted “kill Mike Pence” on the 6th of January 2021?)

Woke ideologues believe that religious people should not be allowed to practice their beliefs if those contradict other woke ideology.

You’re free to practice your religion as long as it doesn’t hurt other people. What “woke ideologues” don’t like are people who want to make everyone else live according to the rules of their religion. Speaking of which: Is it Christians or atheists who are trying to turn their religious beliefs into the law that governs all people?

Woke ideologues believe that crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be allowed to live and defecate on public streets.

No, they believe unhoused people deserve shelther (and treatment for any issues they may have) instead of being demonized as “crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums”. Not everyone who does drugs is homeless; not everyone who is homeless does drugs; not every case of homelessness happens only and specifically because of drugs.

Woke ideologues believe that it is wrong to evaluate people for their individual capabilities, especially if those people are members of their favored victim groups.

…what the fuck are you talking about

Woke ideologues believe that members of their favored victim groups can never be held accountable for their failures to any extent; only their disfavored oppressor groups may be blamed.

You say that like all gay people think there are no “bad” gay people when I promise you that such thinking is rare (if it even exists). If anything, your descriptor applies more often to Republicans than anyone else⁠—I mean, Al Franken got run out of Congress for far, far, far less than the many, many, many lies of George Santos.

Woke ideologues hate America and its foundational values and principles.

lolwut

Woke ideologues believe that their false ideology should be taught as truth in public schools.

If anything, the Republicans are far more guilty of this than any queer person or person of color would ever be. Republicans are the ones who keep trying to erase queer history and whitewash Black history nationwide, and that includes their penchant for watering down Martin Luther King’s complex belief system⁠—which would still be considered radical even today⁠—to a single quote taken near-entirely out of its context because it makes MLK seem like anything but an avowed anti-racist who was so hated by America in his lifetime that he eventually got shot in the fucking face for his work in the Civil Rights Movement.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

And until the proposal was shelved following national backlash, Florida’s education system also considered making mandatory the reporting of the menstrual data of female high school athletes. That would’ve been a double-whammy: It would’ve been an attack on trans female athletes and would’ve opened up the potential for investigating teenage girls who missed their periods under the guise of stopping abortions. It’s almost like the GOP would be fine with forcing cisgender girls under the age of 18 into a specific gender role by forcing them to carry a pregnancy to term⁠—even (and possibly especially) if a girl was made pregnant via rape. Curious. 🤔

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

TD needs a way to turn the comment tree into a directed acyclic graph; I want this to be a response to both you and the AC who did the same as you, going through the list point by point.

My post was in response to PaulT, who claimed there was no “real definition” of woke, illustrating that in fact, there is a large constellation of false and pernicious beliefs that can be clearly specified and which comprise wokeness. (My list is fairly thorough but not comprehensive. I’m sure I could find more things to add.) Naturally, woke ideologues do not recognize that these beliefs are false and pernicious, or they claim that they don’t believe these things, so your going through the list items isn’t helpful; I already know that you don’t think there’s anything wrong with them. That’s why we’re having culture wars rather than culture debate clubs.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The way you reason and how you define “woke” means that people who doesn’t agree with you will always be woke according to you. Any pushback to your “expansive” definition is met with “woke ideologues”. It’s a way for you to dismiss any criticism, it’s your safe space.

I sincerely hope you’ll end up on the street – you could do with a dose of reality.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

there is a large constellation of false and pernicious beliefs that can be clearly specified and which comprise wokeness

No, there isn’t. “Wokeness” as a pejorative has no meaning beyond “things that I, a conservative, don’t like”. It isn’t a coherent ideology; if it were, several conservative beliefs and actions would fall under the banner of “wokeness”⁠—as I specifically pointed out.

woke ideologues do not recognize that these beliefs are false and pernicious

All belief is fiction in the deepest sense. But what beliefs one forms aren’t nearly as consequential as how one enacts their beliefs.

Let’s say everything you believe about “wokeness” is absolutely true. Judging by Florida, it looks like those beliefs are justifying censorship, sociopolitical attacks on trans people, and creeping fascism in general. That’s because fascists never tell you what’s true⁠—they tell you what would have to be true to justify what they plan to do next.

(Side note: This is why I like to quote Dogma’s “it’s better to have ideas than beliefs” bit. I don’t always live up to it, but at least I’m tryin’.)

they claim that they don’t believe these things, so your going through the list items isn’t helpful

You thinking all “woke ideologues” are a monolith is your malfunction. Fix it yourself.

I already know that you don’t think there’s anything wrong with them

On the contrary⁠—this one…

Woke ideologues believe that members of their favored victim groups can never be held accountable for their failures to any extent; only their disfavored oppressor groups may be blamed.

…is complete bullshit from both sides of my thinking. Not only is your thinking this is a widespread belief wrong as hell, but the idea of not holding someone accountable for their actions because they’re part of a demographic I‘m in (e.g., queer) is so immoral and unethical that it’s a flat-out ridiculous idea.

People can use oppression from a majority demographic as a justification for their actions. But that can’t completely excuse someone for doing some seriously fucked-up shit. Like, I’m all for reducing anti-queer oppression, and I still think said oppression being a thing shouldn’t inherently excuse a queer person for killing a cishet person.

That’s why we’re having culture wars

We’re having culture wars because U.S. conservatives are, by and large, conservative Christians who are taught to fear and loathe any changes to society that don’t favor said Christians. We’re having culture wars because a bunch of modern-day Puritans believe queer people openly existing in society is akin to a pandemic not unlike COVID-19 (and that admitting queer people exist is akin to infecting people with a disease). We’re having culture wars because conservative politicians, conservative pundits, and conservative people with power would rather talk about drag queens than address the failures of near-unchecked capitalism.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Woke ideologues use “fascist” to mean “things they don’t like”. They use “science” to mean “things they assert are true with no evidence”, such as their abandonment of phonics for whole-language reading education, which has left people unable to read as well, of course, woke gender ideology. They use “caring for people who are different” to mean privileging the dregs of society over the people they prey upon.

Woke ideologues have taken 1984 as an instruction manual rather than as a warning.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“Woke ideologues .. ”

Yourself and others have used and abused the language for some time, calling people all sorts of names not unlike that of a junior high playground at recess.

When it is pointed out that law enforcement does not need to end someone’s life over the theft of a candy bar it is called woke. When someone points out that personal budgets require income that matches or exceeds what it takes to live in the area, they are called woke.

Neither of the above meet your definition(s) of woke and yet the term is used for most everything these days.

Wow, traffic sucks this morning, must be woke.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Any criminal act against person or property should carry the risk of being met with deadly force during the commission of the crime.

Woke ideologues want to privilege criminal scum over the citizens they prey upon, during the crime (DEFUND THE POLICE!), after they are arrested for the crime (END CASH BAIL!), and after they are convicted for the crime (ABOLISH PRISONS!).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Any criminal act against person or property should carry the risk of being met with deadly force during the commission of the crime.

Okay, so, let me get this straight: If some lone whackjob is breaking a window during what is otherwise a peaceful protest, do you believe that person should be executed by the police on the spot for that transgression? After all, you said (emphasis mine) “any criminal act against person or property should carry the risk of being met with deadly force”. I just want to know if we’re on the same wavelength on that.

Woke ideologues want to privilege criminal scum over the citizens they prey upon

I hate to break this to you, Hyman, but people who commit crimes are still people. (And yes, that includes Black people⁠.) The legal system rarely seems to remember this, which is why people are trying to reform the system on several levels. That does include defunding the police (by diverting more funding to the social programs and government institutions that could help people and free up cops to do their jobs better) and reworking the cash bail system (which is inherently stacked against poor people). No progress is perfect, but if we sat around waiting for perfection from our systems and institutions, we’d all end up dying in our seats.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Any criminal act against person or property should carry the risk of being met with deadly force during the commission of the crime.

Why?

Woke ideologues want to privilege criminal scum over the citizens they prey upon, […]

Nope.

[…] during the crime (DEFUND THE POLICE!), […]

Yeah, it’s a terrible-sounding shorthand, but it’s a lot more nuanced than that and basically is about reforming the police.

[…] after they are arrested for the crime (END CASH BAIL!), […]

Again, you’re oversimplifying the matter.

[…] and after they are convicted for the crime (ABOLISH PRISONS!).

[citation needed]

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Woke ideologues use “fascist” to mean “things they don’t like”.

Other way around, shitheel. Woke ideologues aren’t the ones removing a book about Roberto Clemente from public schools because it mentions the discrimination he faced. That shit is entirely on the wannabe fascists in the Republican party.

They use “science” to mean “things they assert are true with no evidence”

You mean like how Young Earth Creationists assert that their ideas about the creation of the universe are a valid scientific theory instead of religious horseshit?

They use “caring for people who are different” to mean privileging the dregs of society over the people they prey upon.

I didn’t know you thought of marginalized people⁠—including physically disabled people, intellectually disabled people, queer people, and people of color⁠—as “the dregs of society”. Thanks for clearing that up!

Woke ideologues have taken 1984 as an instruction manual rather than as a warning.

Florida literally passed laws that have turned an intentionally broad swath of ideas and information into “wrongspeak”, such that someone who supplies that information in any way in a public school can be punished by the legal system for doing exactly that. But sure, tell me how people bitching at you for using racial slurs is the same exact thing as that level of censorship.

Every accusation, a confession…

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The government may speak for itself as it wishes, and may forbid employees from speaking contrary to that as part of their jobs. Just as the FDA and CDC can prevent their employees from speaking against vaccines as part of their jobs, Florida can instruct its public school teachers and public librarians not to promote woke ideology as part of their jobs.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Florida can instruct its public school teachers and public librarians not to promote woke ideology as part of their jobs.

Here’s the problem with this: When you say “woke ideology”, you’re covering a hell of a lot of speech⁠—some of which might actually be educational even if it’s upsetting to some children (or their parents). If the law says a teacher can’t tell students that a group of people have ever been or are currently oppressed in this country based on their race/ethnicity, how can that teacher even so much as mention any historically documented facts about slavery without risking fines and possibly even jail time?

For someone who constantly whines about “woke propaganda”, you’re the one who seems to support the teaching of a whitewashed version of history.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Just as large generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint, but can legally do so if they wish, the Florida state government can legally choose not to have certain books in their public school libraries, but should not do that.

In both cases, public encouragement, public shaming, and replacement of the people in charge can be the solutions to overturning the censorship regime.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

the Florida state government can legally choose not to have certain books in their public school libraries, but should not do that

You’re the one who keeps whining about “woke ideologists”, and all Florida wants to do is get “woke ideology” out of school libraries (with an eye on public libraries after that). For what reason do you think Florida “should not do that” when all they’re doing is exactly what you’ve openly said they should be doing?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Libraries should stock books that express all sorts of viewpoints, even false ones, because in a society that holds freedom of speech as a foundational value, those viewpoints should be made available for people to decide for themselves what to believe. That’s somewhat different from the formal subject matter of a curriculum, where the state has to pick what is taught as true in its classrooms, and should reject teaching lies.

Note that school choice, which woke ideologues oppose, would allow people to pick schools that better align with their beliefs while still having the state pay for education, mitigating the effects of the one-size-fits-all state curriculum.

Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

error 404 citations nonexistent

Naw, the “woke ideologues” poster wasn’t arguing in good faith to begin with.

This is an example of the Space Roach in action. (Take a word with a generally understood meaning, devour that original meaning, and use the word’s syntax and pronunciation with a completely different meaning and intention.)

I’ll Space Roach the Space Roach to show what they were doing:

Woke ideologues use fascist to reveal something about me that I don’t want pointed out … but two can play that game. They use science to mean dogmas to justify their inquisitions.

There’s a tapestry of bad faith tactics in these two sentences alone.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Woke ideologues use “fascist” to mean “things they don’t like”.

Both sides have done this. Barack Obama was often called both a communist/socialist and a fascist, often by the same people, and both were incorrect. That said, it isn’t as widespread as you seem to think.

They use “science” to mean “things they assert are true with no evidence”, such as their abandonment of phonics for whole-language reading education,

  1. No, they don’t. You are just rejecting science you don’t like as having no evidence even when evidence is provided.
  2. I’m not aware that that example is particularly common, and both my parents were (until recently) elementary-school teachers. I think this assertion is likely overblown.
  3. I’m unaware of the arguments of phonics vs whole-language reading, though I don’t believe either method is entirely wrong. That said, there’s nothing about it that seems “woke” or even leftist to me, nor is it particularly radical, so even if your assertion is true, it seems outside of work idealogy, or at least not necessarily problematic.

[…] which has left people unable to read as well, of course, woke gender ideology.

This article doesn’t really support your claim. First, it cuts against the assertion that the lack of phonics-based teaching was purely ideological: the initial implementation was flawed and achieved minimal results, so it was scrapped on that basis. Second, it also singles out North Carolina, which isn’t exactly a bastion for liberalism, so this also suggests a lack of ideology leading to the results. At best, it suggests that liberals were initially skeptical when it was proposed by Bush for ideological reasons, but it being dropped and any continuing skepticism appears to be largely unrelated to that.

Also, how the hell is any of that supposed to lead to “woke gender ideology”? It wasn’t a reaction to a conservative proposal, and literacy has nothing to do with it either (even as alleged), so this seems completely unrelated to your example. If you mean it is an example of claiming science based on no evidence, again, that you reject the evidence for no apparent justified reason doesn’t mean no evidence was presented or exists, nor does it mean the conclusion isn’t based on science.

They use “caring for people who are different” to mean privileging the dregs of society over the people they prey upon.

This I know is false, and you don’t even offer a single reason or example to demonstrate it, so I will reject this claim until you can prove it.

Woke ideologues have taken 1984 as an instruction manual rather than as a warning.

You’ve already shown that you are grossly misusing the term “woke”, so I shall take this with a grain of salt.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

>
We’re having culture wars because U.S. conservatives are, by and large, conservative Christians who are taught to fear and loathe any changes to society that don’t favor said Christians. We’re having culture wars because a bunch of modern-day Puritans believe queer people openly existing in society is akin to a pandemic not unlike COVID-19 (and that admitting queer people exist is akin to infecting people with a disease). We’re having culture wars because conservative politicians, conservative pundits, and conservative people with power would rather talk about drag queens than address the failures of near-unchecked capitalism.

Also, these white supremacists have exported these “culture wars” into places that don’t involve them and the governments of SOME of these countries have not only imbibed some of the bullshit wholesale, but also ENSHRINED THEM INTO LAW.

Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

When you see, say or hear “culture war” remember that for you it’s about the culture, for them it’s about the war.

As Umberto Eco wrote:

… In such a perspective everybody is educated to become a hero. In every mythology the hero is an exceptional being, but in Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death. … In non-fascist societies, the lay public is told that death is unpleasant but must be faced with dignity; believers are told that it is the painful way to reach a supernatural happiness. By contrast, the Ur-Fascist hero craves heroic death, advertised as the best reward for a heroic life. The Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, and one more thing:

That’s why we’re having culture wars rather than culture debate clubs.

If you wanted a debate, you should try addressing my arguments on their merits instead of avoiding that discussion in favor of whining about “woke ideologues” and making shit up.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Woke ideologues believe that men who claim to be women should be allowed to force their way into women’s bathrooms, locker rooms, prisons, and sports teams against the wishes of the two women already there.

Woke ideologues believe that artists must obtain permission to create art, and such permission should be gated by race and sex. Dana Schutz should not be permitted to use Emmett Till as a subject. Characters who are white, especially white men, on the basis of source material or being historical figures may meritoriously be played by actors who are not white or male (eg., Hamilton or the new 1776). Portraying a character who is not white or male must be done only by someone of a similar race (eg., Rachel Zegler, of Columbian descent, playing a Puerto Rican woman in West Side Story). Showing the film in which Olivier plays Othello in a university course is grounds for forcing the professor into a struggle session.

Woke ideologues believe that it is meritorious for men to mock women by adopting exaggerations of stereotypical women’s clothing and makeup, but evil for white people to darken their skin or simulate epicanthic folds in order to costume as a non-white character.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You know what’s funny?

Portraying a character who is not white or male must be done only by someone of a similar race (eg., Rachel Zegler, of Columbian descent, playing a Puerto Rican woman in West Side Story).

If you actually believed this specific idea shouldn’t be a thing⁠—and given how upset you seem by the existence of Hamilton, it sure looks like you do⁠—you’d probably support, with full-throated sincerity, the idea that Scarlett Johanssen has every right to portray Harriet Tubman.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I am not at all upset by Hamilton (except that I tend to hate musical theater) and I have no objections to non-traditional casting as long as it applies equally to everyone. So yes, Scarlett Johanssen portraying Harriet Tubman would be fine; she could even play it in blackface, although it would be more likely to be a totally race-swapped production, perhaps to give white audiences a taste of what it is like to have people like themselves be subjugated.

It is extremely weird, and emblematic of woke ideology that woke ideologues think that drag is great and blackface or yellowface is evil.

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Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Yo, this is a mainstream position, as in most Americans will feel this way.

Audiences would be repulsed by yellowface and blackface as a modern-day presentation because we know the ugliness of the yellowface and blackface eras of showbusiness. Plus, American audiences know there are talented and capable nonwhite performers to take on those roles but still have a hard time because the more risk-averse business side of showbusiness is too afraid of banking on said performers because they might alienate segments of the public coded as “Middle America” or “Real America.”

Also, we had a famous presentation of blackface in recent memory with no blowback. Remember “Tropic Thunder”? Robert Downey Jr. literally played blackface and went on to be a huge movie star. It did so because the audience knew TT was a farce, they understood how meta humor works, and TT even set up the joke to explain the blackface.

This is me being the guy heckling the illusionist (you) by yelling out the trick he’s trying to perform. Illusionist, this is not for your benefit.

The illusionist is performing a trick called frame-flipping. He produces a device called a woke ideologue that the audience is supposed to train their attention on. The illusionist has two other devices, a drag queen that has gained some mainstream audience acceptance, and “face” comedy, a once accepted artform that has now fallen into disrepute.

While the audience has their eyes on “woke ideologue” prop, the illusionist flips the positions of respectability back on face comedy and makes drag the reviled form of entertainment.

That’s how the trick works.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It is extremely weird, and emblematic of woke ideology that woke ideologues think that drag is great and blackface or yellowface is evil.

Drag would be “evil” if it were entirely and specifically about demeaning women. And yes, some people do see it that way. But plenty of people see drag as a way of embracing the feminine rather than rejecting it or displaying it as “lesser” than the masculine.

Blackface was and still is largely about demeaning Black people and/or denying Black people the right to portray themselves on stage and screen. In some cases, blackface is about using the gimmick to mock the ignorance of white people (e.g., Soul Man), though such attempts don’t always comes off well enough to justify its use. And even when it does come off well (e.g., Tropic Thunder), blackface is still widely seen as something Not Cool™ because white people can wipe off makeup but Black people can’t wipe off their skin color.

Althought I respect drag performers of all genders, drag isn’t really my thing. But I’ve never watched a drag queen performance and thought “man, this is really fucked up and wrong” like I have whenever I’ve seen damn near anyone performing in blackface.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It is extremely weird, and emblematic of woke ideology that woke ideologues think that drag is great and blackface or yellowface is evil.

Simple minds lack the means to understand nuance and context which is why they find the above “weird”. When you grow up perhaps you’ll understand.

Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Space Roach theory of language

It doesn’t help that there’s no real definition of that word.

Right now there’s a pretty active comments section on George Lakoff’s FrameLab Substack on what do people believe “woke” means.

There’s not a consensus definition on what “woke” means right now in 2022. The only broad agreement is:
1. The term is of Black origin.
2. It’s an awareness of racism.
3. Today it’s perceived as pejorative.

I offered a tongue-in-cheek explanation on how a shared sense of meaning of “woke” had collapsed. I called it the Space Roach theory of language.

It’s named after the archvillain in the first Men in Black film — a cockroach-like alien who after crash-landing on Earth kills a farmer by eating everything from the flesh inside and wearing the farmer’s skin as a disguise.

The rightwing approach to “woke” is to take the original meaning and intention of the word — a Black warning to be aware of racism — and devour them because it points to a dark truth that reveals the shame and guilt of being beneficiaries of racism. Instead, the rightwing substitutes its own idea of racism but uses the spelling and pronunciation of “woke” as semantic skin.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The moderation staff at Twitter were all woke ideologues, from Yoel Roth on down.

That a comment like this is suppressed at Techdirt and hidden/”flagged” by the “community” says a lot about TD’s hardcore commentators (and none of it positive).

I can understand flagging comments that are obscene or profanity-laced, but this comments simply expresses a reasonable viewpoint that contradicts the perspectives of many liberal/woke tech aficionados.

Truly ironic that Masnick styles himself as a free speech warrior when contrarian commentators on his own blog have their speech suppressed for not echoing his pro-censorship line.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

What it says is that people here recognize the bigot Hyman Rosen from his constant bigotry postings, and are presenting to him some consequences for his actions.

It’s sad that you don’t believe in the marketplace of ideas and are such a snowflake that you have to complain when the marketplace rejects your bigotry.

There is no “pro-censorship” going on here. There is strong support for private property rights and free speech including speech that tells Hyman he’s a bigoted asshole that people dislike. But his speech is still allowed. He is free to say what he wants, and we are free to indicate our rejection of his bigotry.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

That wasn’t me you’re quoting. But as always, censorship is the act of the censor, silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls. The ability of the silenced to speak elsewhere is irrelevant. Someone who claims to support freedom of speech but censors opinions based on viewpoint is a liar.

Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Someone who claims to support freedom of speech but censors opinions based on viewpoint is a liar.

Litigating “freedom of speech” in this manner is moral hostage-taking.

Usually, the offender says something that a platform doesn’t want to present or an audience doesn’t want to hear. Invoking “free speech” gives the offender leverage over the platform and the audience to compromise their values and obligate them to listen to someone they wouldn’t otherwise without duress.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Free speech means you can try to attract your own audience, it does not mean that you can demand that other people provide you with a platform and audience. Demanding that you can speak on whatever platform you want to use shows you are really anti free speech, as you want to force conversation to take the direction you want them to go.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

A private platform is under no obligation to accede to anyone’s demands to host speech. But in a society in which freedom of speech is a foundational value, large private generic speech platforms ought not to silence opinions based on viewpoint. If they do, they should be criticized, shamed, or bought to get them to change. At the very least, they should be mocked if they claim to support free speech when they do not, with the understanding that it is not supportive of free speech to use their own free speech rights to deny speech to others.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It is not “planephobic” to point out that the Earth is not flat, and it is not “transphobic” to point out that men can never become women nor women men.

It is not white-supremacist to report accurate statistics about Black crime.

Woke ideologues believe that it is essential to deny reality if reality refuses to support their false and dangerous ideas. They should not be permitted to force people who know better to affirm those lies.

The same applies to conservative ideologues. Gods do not exist. People should be able to have any romantic or sexual partners who they want and who will have them. It is the job of government to care for its citizens.

I get banned because I like arguing against false but prevalent beliefs in the discussions in which I participate.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It is not white-supremacist to report accurate statistics about Black crime.

It is racist, however, to use that argument while also ignoring how white-on-white crime statistics are equally proportionate and that most crime is intraracial rather than interracial. You’re painting Black people as a criminal monolith⁠—as an underclass of people whose very existence is, was, and always will be plagued by an inherent and nigh-inescapable pull to criminality⁠—and refusing to examine the dominant racial group with the same critical eye because doing so won’t help your racist-ass argument.

Woke ideologues believe that it is essential to deny reality if reality refuses to support their false and dangerous ideas.

Republicans deny the reality of unchecked and unregulated capitalism doing serious damage to society because reality refuses to support the false and dangerous ideas of “trickle-down economics” and “not taxing the rich is a good thing”. Does that make them “woke”?

It is the job of government to care for its citizens.

The GOP wants to decide your gender, sexuality, and pronouns for you⁠—and enforce that decision by law if possible/necessary. The GOP also wants to decide what you do with your own body, and how, and why, and when, and with whom you do it. What does that sound like to you: a government that cares for its citizens or an overly paternalistic form of fascism that cares only for the desires of the people in power?

Your problem is that for all your bluster about conservative ideologues, you’re on their side more often than not. The GOP is the party that keeps passing laws trying to outlaw the teaching of evolution (or have religious mythology taught as scientific theory), the public existence of queer people, the right of bodily autonomy for women (e.g., abortion bans), and factual historical information that conservatives don’t want children to learn. The GOP does all the censorship you refuse to condemn because, for all your proclamations about liberals feeling this way, you have shown yourself to take absolutely no issue with conservative-led censorship because you agree with it on every level. This is why people keep saying “every accusation, a confession”: Every time a conservative accuses a liberal/progressive of doing something morally heinous, chances are that the conservatives are confessing at least a desire to do the same thing (if not worse) should they have the power to make those wishes come true. I mean, when was the last time you heard about a liberal/progressive lawmaker trying to do⁠—and succeeding at doing!⁠—anything on the level of what Ron DeSantis is doing in Florida in re: his “anti-woke” laws and the consequences thereof? I don’t see Democrats pushing to have female student athletes report their menstrual data as a mandatory part of signing up to play sports or trying to deny women the right to have an abortion or trying to eliminate diversity initiatives or bring back mandatory Christian prayers in schools or ban a book about a baseball player because it mentions the discrimination he faced. That’s all from the GOP⁠—and I guarantee it’s only going to get worse from here on out.

You whine about “woke ideologists”, but you fail to condemn⁠—and sometimes you even celebrate⁠—conservative ideologists. We get it, Hyman: You’re so consumed by your hatred and fear for queer people and people of color that you’ve become a self-loathing dickface who isn’t even accepted by the shitpits that would ordinarily welcome your kind of asshole into the fold. Do the world a favor and go live in the forest for the rest of your life so you’ll never have to worry about Black people performing at the Super Bowl and trans people existing in public ever again.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

That a comment like this is suppressed at Techdirt and hidden/”flagged” by the “community” says a lot about TD’s hardcore commentators (and none of it positive).

It’s a point that has been refuted a thousand times here alone, and there is still no evidence for its accuracy. As such, such claims are hidden on the grounds that they offer nothing to the conversation, which is standard practice here.

When the same undemonstrated and apparently false thing gets repeated over and over and over again without anything new, it’s going to get hidden.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

How very conservative of him

It’s so very in character for someone like that to believe that they are owed not just free speech but free reach, where being able to speak matters less than how many people have to or care to listen to them.

David says:

Re: Re: Re:

Well, the funny thing is that he already could say what he wanted on Twitter before buying it. But his popularity was less than fabulous. It was a reasonable expectation that buying it and commanding all the engineers should lead to larger retweet numbers: it’s not like there’d be a paper trail, or anybody would order a recount. Good training for election workers.

Bloof (profile) says:

He’s alienated everyone but his weirdest fans, the left hates him for reinstating the worst people, the political hitpieces and the mass layoffs, the right hate him for applying any rules at all and not boosting their content to the top of every feed and centrists hate him for the right wing content that is boosted and the site becoming unreliable.

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Anonymous Coward says:

As another user wrote, “A recurring theme on TechDirt is about how companies fail and mistreat their users trying to placate Wall Street by maintaining steady growth quarter over quarter, and how this is a bad way to run a company.

But Elon Musk has owned Twitter for only one quarter, yet the other steady recurring drumbeat on TechDirt is how he has failed in running the company.

It’s not difficult to believe that TechDirt is attacking Musk because Musk has deprived woke ideologues (who are only too real, despite MM’s use of scare quotes) of the viewpoint-based censorship that Twitter formerly provided for them. Perhaps new Twitter really will fail, perhaps it won’t, but the hatred from the woke ideologues would still be there regardless of how Twitter was managed.”

I agree. Mike Masnick has a seemingly pathological dislike of Musk that’s compromised TechDirt’s ability to report objectively on Twitter. Very sad to see this decline here.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Mike Masnick has a seemingly pathological dislike of Musk

I don’t see how that’s true, unless you believe that every other outlet reporting on Musk’s erratic behavior in re: running Twitter also has a pathological dislike of Musk instead of a desire to, y’know, report newsworthy stories about one of the biggest social media services in the world.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Don’t like that TD is writing about Musk’s failings?

Then you’ll really hate the news coverage of it:
https://news.google.com/stories/CAAqNggKIjBDQklTSGpvSmMzUnZjbmt0TXpZd1NoRUtEd2p6bnJqTkJoRlBiemZiR2tfa0RpZ0FQAQ?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Tech Dirt’s objectivity

Techdirt has never been an “objective” platform for news. (Hell, no news platform is 100% objective.) It’s always been an opinion blog. If you don’t like this site’s opinions and the best comment you can post in disagreement is the one you posted, stop reading the blog. You don’t have to punish yourself by reading sites you hate. I don’t go around reading Fox News’s website, and I hope that network dies a brief-yet-satisfying death when its time finally comes.

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Cowardly and Anonymous says:

As much as Elon Musk and his ilk love to whine about snowflakes ruining everything, Musk himself is a picture-perfect example of an oversensitive snowflake. Someone has political views you don’t like? They can’t be allowed to be on the Internet! Enough people aren’t looking at his tweets (many people, but not enough people!)? MAKE them read his tweets! Someone disagrees with him, or even points out that Musk did something bad? Punishment! Punishment! Every punishment we can manage!

But of course, I doubt he actually cares that he’s a hypocrite – as long as it brought him continuing money and power, all was well for him. But now, both his wealth and his social standing are in jeopardy, and clearly the little people must be shown the consequences for their “lack of vision”.

Expect more occasional tantrums when public opinion doesn’t rally behind Musk and his every idea.

Anonymous Coward says:

Hey Matty,

Assuming you’re given the benefit of the doubt and you have a wife and kids, do they know that instead of being the solid rock of the nuclear family unit, you’re instead kissing the footprints of a multibillionaire who cares naught for your existence, by railing on a website at random nobodies?

That’s going to be your legacy, for someone dumb enough to use their actual name (again, another benefit of the doubt). Someone who sacked his own interpersonal family relationships just to win some fucknugget fantasy football league in his head. Your wife should seriously start evaluating her position in your life because you seriously spend more time thinking about Musk and Chozen than her, and if there’s one thing women don’t like it’s being NTRed.

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