The Faux Free Speech Warriors Attacking Free Speech

from the don't-let-them-get-away-with-it dept

There’s a particularly insidious and cynical form of censorship gaining prominence in America: the weaponization of “free speech” rhetoric, combined with abuses of the judicial system and executive power, to actually suppress speech. It’s a strategy that turns the First Amendment’s principles inside out, using the language of liberty to justify silencing critics and opponents.

Consider Brendan Carr pretending to be a free speech warrior while demanding censorship and seeking to punish those who speak against Trump. Or Jim Jordan, who was supposedly tasked with investigating the “weaponization” of the government against speech, but used that position to weaponize his government committee to suppress speech.

Perhaps the most brazen practitioners of this strategy are those with the resources to weaponize the legal system itself. Take Elon Musk, who wraps himself in the mantle of “free speech absolutism” while filing censorial lawsuits against his critics. Or Donald Trump, who portrays himself as a free speech champion while maintaining a relentless campaign of legal intimidation—suing media properties for critical coverage, attacking CBS over 60 Minutes for a Harris interview he didn’t like, and even targeting pollster Ann Selzer for publishing unfavorable poll predictions.

This censorship strategy has evolved to exploit every available pressure point in our system. Government officials like Carr and Jordan weaponize regulatory and investigative powers, while wealthy private actors like Musk and Trump deploy their vast resources to overwhelm critics with legal costs. The tactics are different, but the playbook is the same.

The success of this strategy relies on a peculiar form of doublespeak: while actively working to silence critics through legal and political pressure, these figures present themselves as defenders of free expression. More troubling still is how effectively this framing has been accepted by mainstream media and, by extension, the public.

Andy Craig, from the Institute for Humane Studies, has a great op-ed exploring how the MAGA world is famous for abusing vexatious lawsuits to silence speech. It’s the classic story of the SLAPP suit:

Defamation law, ostensibly meant to protect reputations against malicious falsehoods, is being twisted into a bludgeon to silence criticism and accountability — where even the threat of a defamation suit can serve to chill free speech. And in some cases, SLAPPs abuse other areas of law to target speech in order to evade the high First Amendment bar for defamation under Supreme Court precedents. 

Elon Musk’s lawsuit against Media Matters, for example, epitomizes this trend. Media Matters reported on ads for major brands running next to neo-Nazi content on Musk’s X platform, formerly Twitter. Instead of addressing the substance of the report, Musk retaliated with a lawsuit, in this case based not on defamation as such but an even more outlandish “consumer fraud” theory. By allegedly presenting misleading examples, even though they were undeniably real and similar ones are easy to come by, the theory is this somehow falls under defrauding people into not using or buying ads on X. And as Musk frequently does, the case was filed in the Northern District of Texas to engage in blatant “judge shopping.” It paid off, with Judge Reed O’Connor, long known for his solicitousness toward conservative political efforts, allowing the case to proceed to trial despite its flawed premise.

The message was unmistakable: Critics calling out extremist content on his platform could come at a steep personal cost. It is not unrelated that Media Matters, faced with massive legal fees in fighting the wealthiest man in the world, was recently forced to resort to mass layoffs.

Craig’s analysis cuts to the heart of the matter: these aren’t just isolated incidents of powerful figures attempting to silence critics. Rather, it’s a calculated strategy that corrupts both legal processes and public discourse. By wrapping censorship in the language of free speech protection, these actors have found a way to make their suppression efforts appear legitimate—and much of the media has struggled to effectively challenge this framing.

What makes these actions particularly perverse is how they are often cloaked in the language of defending free speech. Musk’s rhetoric about combating the “woke mind virus” and DeSantis’ attacks on so-called woke corporations both claim to champion free expression while doing the opposite. This weaponization of free speech rhetoric is both cynical and dangerous, undermining the very principle it purports to defend, while seeking to rob their opponents of the language needed to accurately describe it.

The real-world impact of this legal intimidation strategy became starkly apparent in the media’s timid coverage of Elon Musk’s gesture at Trump’s inauguration. While the movement clearly resembled a Nazi salute (and literal Nazis took it that way), American media outlets tied themselves in knots to avoid saying so directly:

Consider, too, how U.S. media hesitated to report on Elon Musk’s apparent Nazi salute at a post-inauguration rally for Trump. German and Israeli outlets did not shy away from describing the incident as it appeared, yet many of their American counterparts tread more carefully. No matter how baseless, a lawsuit from Musk can cost millions of dollars to defend. The culture of risk aversion, compounded by legal threats and official intimidation, has narrowed the bounds of permissible discourse here, in the nation that is supposed to have the strongest free speech protections in the world.

The contrast is telling: media outlets in countries with stricter speech laws but stronger protections against frivolous lawsuits felt free to describe what they saw. Meanwhile, American journalists—operating in a country with supposedly the strongest free speech protections in the world—engaged in elaborate verbal gymnastics to avoid potential legal liability.

Musk’s subsequent threat to sue Minnesota Governor Tim Walz for describing the gesture as a Nazi salute only underscores the pattern: using litigation threats to chill speech while claiming to champion free expression. The strategy works precisely because defending against even a baseless lawsuit can be ruinously expensive.

Addressing this coordinated assault on free speech requires a multi-pronged approach. At the legal level, we need two parallel reforms: comprehensive anti-SLAPP protections to counter wealthy actors’ abuse of the courts, and stronger legislative guardrails against government officials using their investigative and regulatory powers to harass critics. The first priority is clear:

What’s urgently needed are robust anti-SLAPP laws, both at the federal level and in states where protections are still weak or nonexistent. Anti-SLAPP laws allow defendants to quickly dismiss lawsuits that are filed with the primary intent of suppressing speech, with legal fees automatically awarded (often with some multiplier) to the defendants. Crucially, they shift the burden of costs onto the plaintiff, deterring frivolous lawsuits and protecting critics from devastating expenses.

Equally crucial is defending existing First Amendment protections against efforts to weaken them. Some powerful figures, including those on the Supreme Court, are actively working to lower the barriers that currently help protect robust public discourse:

The broader legal context also underscores the stakes. Some figures, including Justice Clarence Thomas, have expressed interest in revisiting New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, the landmark Supreme Court case that established strong protections for speech about public figures. Undermining Sullivan would open the floodgates to even more defamation claims, further chilling speech. Anti-SLAPP laws are a critical counterweight to these trends, ensuring that free expression remains protected even as legal challenges multiply.

Perhaps most fundamentally, we need to develop stronger cultural antibodies against this form of censorship. That starts with consistently calling out these tactics for what they are: coordinated attempts to silence criticism through intimidation, even — or especially — when wrapped in the rhetoric of free speech protection:

But legal reforms alone are not enough. We must also recognize and call out these attacks for what they are: a coordinated censorship campaign. Whether through SLAPPs, state retaliation or regulatory threats, these actions aim to undermine the First Amendment by making the cost of speaking out intolerably high. They are not isolated incidents but part of a broader war on free speech, waged in the name of consolidating unchallenged political power.

The free speech crisis hiding in plain sight isn’t about whether individuals can ever criticize powerful figures — it’s about whether institutions can withstand the pressure to self-censor in the face of legal and political intimidation. Without robust protections like anti-SLAPP laws and a renewed cultural commitment to defending open discourse, the chilling effect will only grow stronger, leaving what’s left of American democracy poorer for it.

There’s a lot more good stuff in the piece, so go check it out.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

A reminder for those who need it: Freedom of speech means having the freedom not to say a thing, freedom of religion means having the freedom to refuse following any religion, and freedom of association means having the freedom to refuse an association. Any supposed “freedom” where you don’t have the option to say “no” isn’t freedom.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

We won’t be able to get anywhere as a society if religious parents are able to nope their kids out of lessons and books that teach them basic things like “LGBTQ+ people are regular folks like you & me”. Raising their kids to be sheltered bigots that we then have to deal with as they become intolerant adult participants in society is something that creates harm.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

We won’t be able to get anywhere as a society if religious parents are able to nope their kids out of lessons and books that teach them basic things like “LGBTQ+ people are regular folks like you & me”.

On one hand: Agreed.

On the other hand: Taking that decision away from parents is bullshit; I can’t and won’t endorse it.

The freedom to believe as one wishes must also come with the freedom to refuse accepting other beliefs. Parents who want to raise their child into holding negative beliefs about queer people can and should have that right. To argue otherwise would be to argue that, were the shoe on the other foot, parents shouldn’t have the right to raise their child into holding positive beliefs about queer people.

This isn’t a question of me being anti-queer, either. I am queer, so I can understand the desire to teach all children that they should accept and respect queer people. But if a parent wants to teach their child something else, no one⁠—not you, not me, not the state⁠—should have any right to stop that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Letting bigots indoctrinate their kids into believing their fellow person is a sin for immutable qualities of their existence exacts a cost. One could think of it in the “Privatize the Profits, Socialize the Losses” framework.

The parents get to raise their kids to become hateful adults, and then they get unleashed on the world to become everyone else’s problem. They then support and vote for other hateful adults and agitate for hateful policies and causes. Marginalized groups having to litigate and then relitigate their right to dignity and existence over and over to these successive generations of bigots is not sustainable. We are living, right now, in the product of that unsustainability.

I am queer myself, and I have queer friends who have made it clear that they are tired of having to “be brave”, tired of being told they’re “so brave” and just want a society and government policies where we don’t have to fight every step of the way, or re-fight the same shit over and over again.

The current rights framework where bigoted parents are near-infallible, and seek to grab even greater rights for themselves so they can keep inflicting their spawn on us, isn’t working and hasn’t been working.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Letting bigots indoctrinate their kids into believing their fellow person is a sin for immutable qualities of their existence exacts a cost.

So does the state forcing parents to raise their children according to a strict doctrine of state-sponsored beliefs. We have freedom of religion because the Founding Fathers saw what happened when the church and the state were one and the same. The state shouldn’t be telling anyone what to believe or punishing anyone who doesn’t believe as the state demands.

We are living, right now, in the product of that unsustainability.

And that is the risk we take when we allow people the freedom to choose what they believe. We can’t have freedom without people having the freedom to make what you or I believe are the wrong choices.

they are tired of having to “be brave”, tired of being told they’re “so brave” and just want a society and government policies where we don’t have to fight every step of the way, or re-fight the same shit over and over again

I’m sick of that kind of shit, too. But the solution can’t be⁠—shouldn’t be⁠—leveraging the power of the state to enforce the principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion at the cost of everyone’s freedom to believe anything even remotely out of alignment with those principles. That means giving up the freedoms of speech and religion (and possibly even association), and I refuse to make that sacrifice or demand that sacrifice of others.

And since I get the feeling you’re going to keep needling me about this for as long as you and I have the energy to keep this shit going, let me lay out a few arguments that won’t change my mind on this matter:

  1. “You’re a bad queer for not wanting to keep queer people safe.”
  2. “You’re a bad queer for not wanting to force bigots to stop being bigoted in public.”
  3. “Your stance is going to get people killed.”
  4. “Your stance is a cheap cop-out against stopping bigots at any cost.”

Going after me with any of those, or anything close to those, will not convince me of anything other than your desire to control and dominate people you dislike…which is exactly the kind of mindset that leads people to believe in fascism.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

But the solution can’t be⁠—shouldn’t be⁠

Then what should the solution, in your opinion, be? How do we get to the place you envision, where we’re allowed to live our best lives while somehow simultaneously letting bigots indoctrinate their kids into believing that we should not be allowed to be our best lives, and that they need to tear down the things that allow us to live our best lives?

And please don’t default to “Idunno I’m just a schmuck with a keyboard“. Surely you have thought about how we could get from here to there?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Then what should the solution, in your opinion, be?

We don’t have an easy solution to this problem. We’ll never have one. Human nature is what it is; trying to force people into a specific belief system will make some of them rebel against that system unless the system holds them at gunpoint (metaphorical or literal). The idea that the state can or should force people into holding a specific belief strikes me as morally repugnant. Even if the belief is a secular ideal, trying to force it upon people with threats of punishment reeks of religious bullshit to me. I can’t and won’t endorse that kind of bullshit.

Surely you have thought about how we could get from here to there?

We’re never going to live in the world you want. Needling me for a magic fix-all solution that I don’t have won’t get you there. Neither will not needling me, for that matter, but that’s the point: Nobody has the solution you want because such a solution doesn’t, won’t, and can’t ever exist.

We can hope for a better world and work towards a better world by supporting the causes and people we feel will help usher in that better world. But supporting a form of fascism that favors those causes sounds like a horrible idea. You’ll have a hard time trying to convince me otherwise.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

We’re never going to live in the world you want.

Alrighty. How do we get to the world you seem to want, where we can live freely and the bigots can somehow magically live freely right alongside us without said bigots pushing (and succeedingat times) for the government to delegitimize our existence? Are there any specific policy ideas you have in mind on how to get there?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

How do we get to the world you seem to want, where we can live freely and the bigots can somehow magically live freely right alongside us without said bigots pushing (and succeedingat times) for the government to delegitimize our existence?

As I said: I don’t have the solution. And for that matter, I’ll never have one. As I said, human nature is what it is⁠—which means no matter what solution I could possibly propose, someone will eventually rebel against it and inspire others to do the same.

I won’t endorse the idea of controlling people’s beliefs through the power of the state, no matter what form that takes. I won’t endorse using vigilante violence to scare people into believing something. Nobody should have a belief thrust upon them at gunpoint (literal or metaphorical) and told to believe it “or else”. That includes beliefs that align with the principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion. That applies as much to bigots as it does to you and I.

I know you think I’m a shitty, horrible, no-good, fucking unredeemable piece of garbage for not buying into the idea of controlling and dominating bigots at the cost of their freedom. I don’t care. The idea that a “progressive” form of fascism could ever stop anti-queer bigotry⁠—or that anyone should ever make the attempt⁠—is, to me, a morally bankrupt and ethically disturbing idea. You haven’t made an argument yet that justifies that idea in any way other than trying to guilt trip me into accepting it. Try a different approach or stop wasting my fucking time; I don’t care which.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

What limits do you think should be placed on religious groups and parents that relentlessly seek exemptions to anything under the sun?

No religious group should be allowed to seek exemptions for medical treatments, including vaccines. To wit: the conviction of 12 adults who let an 8-year-old girl die by refusing to treat her diabetes with insulin.

No religious group should be allowed to escape the responsibility of being mandatory reporters for child abuse. No religious ritual⁠—including the ritual of “confession”⁠—should ever be treated as more important than the safety of a child.

No one with a religious objection to any kind of medical treatment or procedure should be allowed to refuse that treatment or procedure to anyone who requests/requires it. If a woman wants a birth control prescription, for example, a pharmacist who objects to birth control shouldn’t be allowed to refuse filling that prescription.

Any existing limits that we have on religious groups should be enforced to the letter. No exceptions. (Hint hint, IRS.)

Off the top of my head, the only exemptions for which I can approve are forced military service (e.g., consciencous objectors) and speaking against one’s conscience (e.g., the freedom to refuse to host, repeat, or express certain kinds of speech).

Arijirija says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I think freedom to access contrary information is a must. I was raised in a conservative environment, and was insanely curious about everything. One day I stopped in at my favorite bookshop, picked up a copy of The Penguin Book of Contemporary American Poetry, turned by chance to Allen Ginsberg’s poems and was hooked. That completed my emancipation from the anti-homosexual milieu I’d been raised in – if a gay author could write some of the best poetry in the world, then the attitudes that consigned them to hell for merely loving their own sex was tragic, and deficient in humanity.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 More speech

The solution is more speech. It’s the hard work of convincing others that their ideas are wrong. Bad ideas will always exist. The best we can do is increase the social cost for holding onto the ideas. That’s become increasingly harder as the internet has allowed folks with such abhorrent ideas to connect with one another. They no longer have to live in isolation. It’s incredibly hard, but asking the government to do it for us is the slipperiest of slopes and can be weaponized against the the very people you mean to protect as soon as the other party is in power. The lack of a clear solution doesn’t mean we should give the government this power.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The current rights framework where bigoted parents are near-infallible, and seek to grab even greater rights for themselves so they can keep inflicting their spawn on us, isn’t working and hasn’t been working.

Hey, dude. Boomer here. Maybe we should sit down some time, so I can tell you about the bad old days.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

We shouldn’t regress back to that state because “religious freedom”.

And how do we avoid that without stripping away from parents the freedom to raise their children with whatever beliefs the parents want to express, from churches the freedom to espouse whatever beliefs the clergy want to express, and from private religious schools the freedom to teach whatever dogma the schools want to teach?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I want people to be able to freely worship. However, that ability to freely worship is something that cannot be allowed to be used/abused to break down our societal fabric, break down our shared reality, and break down the ability for people to see others as fellow equal humans. I don’t think that religious families should be allowed to opt their kids out of lessons or classes that teach people that LGBTQ+ folks like me are just regular people who want to live our lives. We have allowed the use of “religious exemptions” and “religious freedom” to go too far.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I want people to be able to freely worship.

And yet…

I don’t think that religious families should be allowed to opt their kids out of lessons or classes that teach people that LGBTQ+ folks like me are just regular people who want to live our lives.

…you say otherwise.

Look, in theory, I’m all for what you’re saying. But in practice, your belief would run headfirst into a quagmire of church/state issues, not the least of which would be whether the state can force a child to learn an ostensibly secular lesson that the child’s religious parents don’t want the child to learn. Imagine if the roles of the secular and the religious were reversed and the state wanted to force religious teachings upon a child whose parents are atheist and want to raise their child as an atheist. If you would be angry about that situation, but not about its inverse, you can’t really say you believe in the right of people to worship freely.

This is exactly what I’m talking about with the idea of a “progressive” form of fascism: Whether it’s atheism or Christianity or whatever, the core premise of your idea is that people should be forced into believing a specific state-sponsored doctrine “or else”. If that idea isn’t what you intended to express, you’re doing a really shitty job of avoiding that outcome.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Look, in theory, I’m all for what you’re saying. But in practice, your belief would run headfirst into a quagmire of church/state issues, not the least of which would be whether the state can force a child to learn an ostensibly secular lesson that the child’s religious parents don’t want the child to learn.

Do you think it’s a good thing that religious parents have the freedom to opt their kids out of anything and everything, so that their uneducated, bigoted kids can grow up and become everybody else’s problem? Yes or No?

And do you think that that freedom has led us to a good place societally? Yes or No?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Consider the alternative, where the state would control what people can and can’t believe under threat of punishment.

Fun fact: We’re on the verge of this happening in the U.S. because parents have such “freedom”, they abused it for decades to claw even more “freedom” for themselves and their churches and their religious schools, until they got the legal and electoral decisions that got us where we are now.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I’d be a good thing to enforce pro-queer beliefs because queer people are a persecuted minority and people need to fucking learn that we are normal folks just like them rather than being able to continue the cycle of hatred by keeping their kids away from that education. Is it a bad thing when schools have curriculums that require students to learn about how black people are the same as everyone else and have been persecuted in the past, and still are persecuted, as a minority in America?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

I’d be a good thing to enforce pro-queer beliefs

On a conceptual level, yes, it would. But the problem is one of power.

Once you give a certain kind of power to the government, you’ll never get it back without a huge-ass fight. Moreover, once the government has that power, you can’t rest assured that only “the right people” will use that power. Imagine the power you want to give the government in the hands of the Trump administration, which would very much use that power to create public education standards in line with conservative Christian ideals and enforce the learning of those standards with threats of arrests/family separations. I don’t think you want that. But that’s what would happen if you give Trump and his cronies the power you want reserved for “the good guys”.

I would love for the rest of the world to go “okay, queer people are good, actually”. But using the leverage of government-backed punishments to force people into believing that notion is abhorrent on a moral and ethical level. Thinking it’s a good idea because “the good guys” might have that power some day doesn’t make the idea any less abhorrent.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

which would very much use that power to create public education standards in line with conservative Christian ideals and enforce the learning of those standards with threats of arrests/family separations.

“would”?

He’s pretty much doing this right now.

He’s doing this because the free speech framework that you agree with and that you want things to operate under enabled him and his allies to use free speech and freedom of religion to get to this point.

Live with that. Own up to it. Come up with actual specific solutions to it if you finally want to.

Hope you have a good rest of the day.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

He’s pretty much doing this right now.

No, he isn’t. While there are efforts to change school curriculums across the nation in ways that reflect conservative beliefs, those efforts aren’t (yet) a concerted and sustained effort on the federal level. Moreover, the Trump administration isn’t trying to penalize anyone who pulls their children out of public schools, which a state-enforced ideological indoctrination would most likely require.

He’s doing this because the free speech framework that you agree with and that you want things to operate under enabled him and his allies to use free speech and freedom of religion to get to this point.

I want to make this perfectly clear for you, so as much as this might annoy people, I’m going to H1-tag emphasize this point for you so you don’t miss a single word of it:

I will not sacrifice anyone’s freedoms of speech, religion, and association to give the government any kind of power to control what people can and can’t believe.

You can insult me. You can threaten me. You can do whatever the hell you think will force me into changing my mind. None of it will work. The freedoms all Americans enjoy under the Constitution are worth protecting even when they protect shitty people and their shitty beliefs. Nothing you say or do⁠—especially the transparent attempts to guilt trip me into accepting responsibility for Donald Trump⁠—will convince me otherwise. Now, do you have an argument with any substance behind it, or is this “I’m gonna keep insulting him because that will surely change his mind” sideshow all you really have left?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Own it. Deal with it. Your particular brand of free speech where we have to let small-minded bigots lie and spread hate has gotten us here. Your particular brand of free speech says we have to let them agitate and foment for this fascist coup, or else we’re the fascists, has gotten us here. You don’t get to duck responsibility for the results when you’ve said over and over that you’re fine with these people being able to say what they say.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I made my point clear. Your attempts to guilt trip me haven’t worked yet, they aren’t working now, and they won’t work in the future. If you have anything of substance to say beyond “you’re an asshole” or “we should sacrifice other people’s freedoms for my personal comfort”, offer it. If you don’t, fuck off.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Just a statement of fact, not trying to get you to change your mind anymore. This shit is the fault of you and people like you who adhere so strictly to the first amendment that it blinds you to reality and how things can be different.

We have been couped thanks to peoples naive assumptions about free speech and the marketplace of ideas, and whatever people of good virtue pick up the pieces after all of this, after Trump and more are pushed out and away from us, those people of good virtue will, quite reasonably, have little care or respect for the misguided idea that we have to let the Nazis speak or else we’re the Nazis.

Goodnight, and good luck. We’re going to need it to survive this hell that you & others helped create.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

This shit is the fault of you and people like you who adhere so strictly to the first amendment that it blinds you to reality and how things can be different.

Tell me how you can stop bigots from speaking bigoted bullshit without infringing on their civil rights. Yes, you can set rules on sites and kick the bigots off and all that. But you can’t stop them from saying it on their own sites, in their own homes, on platforms that allow their speech to run rampant, or even in public without infringing upon their civil rights. Morally and ethically, I can’t support infringing their rights without opening myself up to the same infringement.

the misguided idea that we have to let the Nazis speak or else we’re the Nazis

I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again: I support someone’s right to express themselves without government intrustion, even when their speech is offensive as hell⁠—but that doesn’t mean other people have an obligation to listen to, host, or associate with that speech (or the person who expresses it). You can blame the situation we’re in on me and people who think the same as I do, but it won’t convince me to feel the least bit guilty about holding to that principle.

Unless you want to shred the First Amendment and violate the civil rights of people you disagree with politically, you have no more of a cure-all solution to this issue than I do. Now, do you have anything else to offer in terms of an argument, or is “I want to violate the civil rights of bigots at all costs” all you have left?

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:17

While there are efforts to change school curriculums across the nation in ways that reflect conservative beliefs, those efforts aren’t (yet) a concerted and sustained effort on the federal level.

That’s a bit out of date, they’ve started now: https://www.edweek.org/policy-politics/trump-threatens-school-funding-cuts-in-effort-to-end-radical-indoctrination/2025/01

That said, they probably won’t penalize removing kids from school any time soon, but that’s mostly because they believe that benefits them more tactically. School choice is something the right (correctly) views as a way to undermine public education. So that’s a bit of a two edged sword.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

We don’t live in a world of absolutes and that includes the slippery slope.

If you’re constantly paralyzed by ‘what if this power is abused’ or ‘would you like it if the other side did it to you’ then, well, we already see that a cult working in bad faith to co-opt, twist and pervert language for a desired anti-reality outcome will work to kill millions of people.

At that point the question of whether it’s bad if the state enforced a norm is irrelevant if the bad faith opposition has another tool in the quiver to pervert meanings and language towards fascism, the end result is invariably the same, no slippery slope of authoritarianism necessary or needed.

Respectfully, the only thing holding the left wing back in many cases is pro-democracy rhetoric while the norms that power it have been empty and steamrolled for years prior. The man advocating state enforcement of DEI and anti-conservative, anti-populist views has a point. It’s not a given such power can’t be organically and gradually relinquished again if forces such as the GOP and AfD or the UK conservative/Tory party were summilarily purged from political thought entirely for at least 50 years and then their positive ideas and language co-opted in reverse.

And no, respectfully, we don’t live in a world where you can argue we will organically get back to nearly unrestricted/minimalist freedom of speech. Once fascism trashes an economy the populace WILL tolerate ideological suppressive swings, regardless of a system for peaceful transfers of power (democracy) or not.

In short, the time for the left to be polite or debating/educating on these issues has long passed, curtailed only by a period of gloablly licking their wounds and waiting patiently for the right wing to stay greedy for too long and anti-left propaganda to have any effect on the remaining fascist inefficiencies.

Therefore as much as everyone would prefer to avoid that outcome, the only real and lasting solution to regain the free speech/associative ideals you want is ironically the guillotine. If we’re all lucky that’s merely economic and rhetorical suppression of religion. The democratic ideal has failed reality for nearly a century even if it’s ebb and flow is the only way to maintain a civil society.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

If you’re constantly paralyzed by ‘what if this power is abused’ or ‘would you like it if the other side did it to you’ then, well, we already see that a cult working in bad faith to co-opt, twist and pervert language for a desired anti-reality outcome will work to kill millions of people.

The extent of any abuse of power and the damage it does (if any) may vary, but any power can be abused. That some power comes with the option to enforce it via legal violence makes that power more prone to being abused. Any argument about “what if the other side had this power” rests on the premise that if you give some kind of power to the government, someone will eventually abuse it⁠—and that includes people with whom you agree on a political level. The point of the “other side” argument is to make you look not at whom that abuse targets or who carries out the abuse, but at how the abuse could even happen in the first place.

Respectfully, the only thing holding the left wing back in many cases is pro-democracy rhetoric while the norms that power it have been empty and steamrolled for years prior.

First off, that’s cute, that you think there’s a significant left-wing presence in American politics. (The overwhelming majority of Dems are “we believe in bipartisanism” centrists at best.) Secondly, pro-democracy rhetoric is a good thing unless you seriously think fascism in the name of left-wing ideals is (A) a thing that can exist and (B) a good idea besides.

It’s not a given such power can’t be organically and gradually relinquished again

Give the government any form of power⁠—or allow the government to give itself some form of power⁠—and you will never get it back without a huge fight. After 9/11, the government demanded it have the power to legally spy on average Americans to an absurd degree; it has never given up that power. I mean, can you tell me when Congress repealed the entirety of the Patriot Act?

we don’t live in a world where you can argue we will organically get back to nearly unrestricted/minimalist freedom of speech

I’ve never argued that point. My point is that everyone has the right to speak their mind without the government stopping them⁠—but private entities (people, businesses, etc.) have every right to refuse listening to, hosting, or associating with, say, pro-Nazi speech (or the Nazi who expresses that speech). If you want to tear a hole in the rights of bigots to express themselves, you should beware of how your rights can be torn apart under similar reasoning by people who want to police speech in a way that favors “the left”.

That’s why the worst people make the best caselaw, by the by: Defending their rights means defending everyone’s rights no matter what kind of regime runs the government. Today, the government could want to ban porn because they’re right-wing prudes who think the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue is “too sexual”. In four years, it could be a bunch of left-wingers who want to ban porn for the cause of “progressive feminism” or something similar. And porn is always the canary in the coal mine of free speech. After all, when porn is declared “obscene” or “beneath community standards” or whatnot, those who want more content banned will find a way to expand the definition of “obscene” to fit, say, pro-queer content. (Or anti-queer content, for that matter.) We can avoid such an outcome by refusing to let the government censor speech to which we personally object.

the only real and lasting solution to regain the free speech/associative ideals you want is ironically the guillotine

Killing people in the name of any ideology⁠—religious, social, political⁠—never achieves anything that lasts in the long run. Consider how the United States fought the Confederacy in a war over slavery. The U.S. won the military war and freed the slaves, but it lost the social and political war when those freed slaves effectively remained second-class citizens (especially in the states that made up the Confederacy). The U.S. fought a war in Afghanistan against Al Qaeda; while American military might drove the terrorist group out of power, as soon as the U.S. left the country, that same group put itself back into power. Violent revolutions change the world, but that change never lasts.

Martin Luther King, Jr. preached for a non-violent approach to the Civil Rights Movement. He supported sit-ins and marches and other non-violent protests. When he was shot in the face for his efforts, the U.S. passed the Civil Rights Act soon after; that law has stood the test of time since its passage. Non-violent change has a much better chance of changing hearts and minds over the years. The movement for LGBTQ equality has worked mostly the same way: After the Stonewall riot gave voice to a generation of queer people who refused to be silent, the LGBTQ movement was bolstered not by violent actions, but by the bravery of queer people willing to come out of the closet and non-queer allies willing to support them. Ellen DeGeneres basically sacrificed her sitcom to come out on national television, and say what you will about her these days, but her coming out back then probably did more for queer rights than a hundred violent protests would’ve ever accomplished.

All of which is to say: You’re trying, once again, to make me endorse preëmptive physical violence as the first, best, and/or only answer to sociopolitical problems. I haven’t bought into that ideology in the past, I’m not buying into it in the present, and I won’t be buying into it in the future. I am aware that violence is a fact of life and, in certain extreme cases, violence is a necessary act to protect one’s self or others. But it isn’t, and can’t be, the go-to option for times when the world sucks and you feel like killing people will make it better.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:3

To argue otherwise would be to argue that, were the shoe on the other foot, parents shouldn’t have the right to raise their child into holding positive beliefs about queer people.

Eh, kind of. There is no obligation to be symmetric when it comes to “shoulds”, morally. Legally/practically speaking, it’s hard to implement.

You absolutely can say “parents should have the right to raise their child into holding positive beliefs about queer people, but not negative ones”.

You can’t claim to be a free speech absolutist or anything while doing so, but it’s self consistent. You can support without having to also support

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You absolutely can say “parents should have the right to raise their child into holding positive beliefs about queer people, but not negative ones”.

Sure, you can say that particular phrase. But that doesn’t stop me from criticizing the idea that forcing parents to indoctrinate their children into a state-sanctioned belief system is anything less than bullshit.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

On the flip side: Would you want the state to force you into believing a specific religious dogma? Would you want the state to separate you from your child if you refused to let the state indoctrinate your child?

You think this is about the belief system being enforced, but it’s about the power used to enforce it, and it’s always going to be. Don’t be obtuse about this; sidestepping the real issue at hand won’t make you look any better.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If you want the state to enforce the teaching of a specific belief system and punish parents who refuse to let their child be indoctrinated, the state would likely use the threat of family separation to force the matter in their favor⁠—and follow through on that threat if the parents still refused.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

requiring kids to be taught that us queer people are equal and just folks like everyone else, is “indoctrination” and “progressive fascism”

It is when you want to punish religious parents who don’t want the state teaching their child such things. After all, you were the one who was saying that religious parents shouldn’t be allowed to let their kid skip such lessons. How else do you plan to stop those parents without giving the state enough power to enforce that indoctrination and punish the parents who refuse it?

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:5

But that doesn’t stop me from criticizing the idea that forcing parents to indoctrinate their children into a state-sanctioned belief system is anything less than bullshit.

Absolutely. I don’t think it’s really worth debating, because ultimately it’s going to be subjective, so I won’t bother trying to change minds on whether it’s not bullshit. There’s no objective reasoning either way, it’s going to come down to gut feelings on ethics, which are inherently subjective. But I do think it’s worth pointing out it is an option. Whether it’s moral or not YMMV, but there’s nothing that’s inherently hypocritical or a logical necessity that you have to argue it that way (unless you’re claiming to be a free speech absolutist or some other ideological commitment).

Although, I’d point out that we already use the power of the state, to varying degrees. If your issue is using state power at all, when we teach kids basic lessons on things like honesty, or to be inclusive/diverse, or the American-flavored patriotism, that is using using the power of the state to tip the scales towards a particular world view. It’s obviously not nearly as coercive as literally taking the child away, of course, but it is a use of power (tbh, in the long term it’s probably roughly as effective). No one really cares because it’s not controversial. That doesn’t inherently justify being more coercive, but it’s worth noting that the use of state power is more of a sliding scale than a bright red line.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 updated history

On the other hand: Taking that decision away from parents is bullshit; I can’t and won’t endorse it.

I am pretty sure that parents ought to be able to teach their kids to {tolerate,not tolerate} people who are different from them.

At the same time, I should like to think there is some sort of standardized curriculum. Should parents be able to opt out of using history books because they disagree with the standard teaching that slavery benefitted the slaves? If so, and if the parents are kluxers, they would be able to opt out of a history text that said slavery was a pernicious evil.

If freedom is the ability to say that 2+2=4, there may be dissenting parents who have better views as to math.

There may be some controversies over science as well. There are some questions as to whether whales are fish, or when it was first thought that they were mammals who swam. Depending on your views of how math is to be done, there could be questions as to whether temperatures are, on average, getting higher.

Can we agree that parents should opt out of “speling” with which they disagree? Alternatively, we can agree that language is “borken” just like “preview” and “flag” on Techdirt.

At some point I would hope we could have educational standards which are widely accepted. Slavery was bad. Averages of larger numbers are larger than averages of smaller numbers. We might as well teach that there are people who are different, and even that we ought not fight in school with the ones who do us no harm.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I am pretty sure that parents ought to be able to teach their kids to {tolerate,not tolerate} people who are different from them. At the same time, I should like to think there is some sort of standardized curriculum.

The long and short of the argument is this: Yes, there will be lessons/facts taught in schools that parents disagree with. (Hi there, theory of evolution!) The state shouldn’t force children to sit through such lessons if the parents don’t want their kid to sit through those lessons. If the only viable alternatives for the parents are homeschooling or private schools, so be it.

I bristle at the idea that children should be propagandized into tolerating/accepting queer people by a school curriculum. Consider whether you’d want that power in the hands of people who would use it to propagandize children into hating queer people. The issue isn’t the lesson, but the power used to enforce it.

And by the by:

Can we agree that parents should opt out of “speling” with which they disagree? Alternatively, we can agree that language is “borken” just like “preview” and “flag” on Techdirt.

Two things.

  1. This…this is not a real argument, or at least one worth taking seriously.
  2. The preview and flag functions work fine for me; if they don’t work for you, that’s your problem.
Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

bristle at the idea that children should be propagandized into tolerating/accepting queer people by a school curriculum.

I think it is essential. And I go farther. I think we ought to propagandize students to tolerate persons of color, and possibly even yankees (obviously not damnyankees however). Probably Catholics, and maybe Mohammedans, too.

The alternatiove is to not propagandize students in this way, instead allowing them to fight in the hallways with those who are of the wrong color, or origin, or religion. Society fails if we cannot walk through the hallways without beating up on or being beaten by groups of people who are different.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 'And for today's lesson boys and girls, 'Gay and Trans-bashing: They had it coming'.'

While I’d agree with you that bigot parents teaching their crotchspawn to be similarly hateful shits is an issue one of the big problems with enshrining the idea that parental rights with regard to education can be overriden by the government like that is that you’d better hope that the bigots aren’t in charge(like say now) otherwise it’s not the LGBTQ+ people or their allies that are going to be setting those rules and ‘educational standards’.

Anonymous Coward says:

I’m just hoping these plans to stop the undermining of free speech are gonna work. Trump’s goons, both in the US and in other far right parties, are downright infuriating in how they sabotage and muddle real arguments for free speech so they can go be nazis in public, all while gleefully suppressing people critical of them.

It’s ridiculous, and even more ridiculous that these idiots are the ones in power now.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

They want the freedom to say what they want without having to take responsibility for their speech. Hell, their use of “DEI” is basically a smokescreen for whatever slur(s) they want to say but can’t because (A) they’d get pilloried for their bigotry and (B) they know better than to give away the game like that.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

It’s even more pathetic and repugnant than that, it’s ‘I want to be a nazi/racist/sexist/other form of vile person without anyone being allowed to say anything against me.’

They love it when people find them ‘distasteful’ because they find a trollish glee in offending others, what they want banned is anyone else returning the favor and/or calling them out as the repulsive and pathetic individuals that they are.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bloof (profile) says:

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the right do not care about censorship, their only problem is they want to be the ones doing it. Look at how the free speech warriors that pop up in the comments section of this site always dive in to defend book bans or attampts to make adult content illegal, screaming ‘think of the children!’ in one post while condemning anything that may help poor children receive a half decent education in the next.

David says:

I am not sure the “committee against the weaponization of government against free speech” will stick around now that Donald Trump considers the Department of Justice his personal legal team and that he has started enacting his retribution fantasies in a manner that clearly defies his contention that he’ll confine his dictatorial leanings to “being a dictator on day one”.

Now that he does no longer even need to pay for his SLAPP suits and gets to direct the prosecutors rather than his attorneys, all hell will break loose.

Funnily this does not preclude finally getting federal SLAPP protections because it would tilt the tables even more in Trump’s favor: he’d be the only one not affected by it since the government now pays his bills and he engages prosecutors rather than acting as plaintiff.

So strong anti-SLAPP laws would tilt the table against his equals and in his favor. And for him it was always “tomorrow be damned”.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Citizen (profile) says:

Model T Freedom

A popular myth about the Model T is that Henry Ford said people can have it in any color as long as it’s black.

We’re seeing a similar phenomenon when it comes to oligarchs’ views on free speech. We can say whatever we want as long as it doesn’t make the boss look bad. The key difference is that the myth about the Model T likely stems from speculation about how it was able to be so cheap; oligarchs like Musk, however, have their self-centered views on free speech because they’re egotistical and have the money necessary to make examples out of their critics.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
That One Guy (profile) says:

'Stop giving powerful people the benefit of the doubt' take... I lost count

By wrapping censorship in the language of free speech protection, these actors have found a way to make their suppression efforts appear legitimate—and much of the media has struggled to effectively challenge this framing.

They haven’t ‘struggled’ to challenge the dystopian framing of ‘silencing free speech = supporting free speech’, they’ve refused to.

The press and major media outlets have had countless opportunities to push back against such lies and instead they’ve either sat silent and supported them through a mix of greed(fighting lawsuits is more expensive than being complicit), cowardice(‘If we call out the liars they might say mean things about us!’), or worse nodded along as though the lies were the truth for the same reasons.

Laura Mcgillis says:

Rep Zoe Logren pushing a SOPA internet censorship bill

Look at these 2 links

https://publicknowledge.org/public-knowledge-opposes-censorious-site-blocking/

https://torrentfreak.com/new-bill-aims-to-block-foreign-pirate-sites-in-the-u-s-250129/

Rep Zoe Logren is pushing a Soft SOPA type internet censorship bill to force ISP to block websites. Hopefully techdirt gets the word out before it’s too LATE

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Bloof (profile) says:

Re:

What political affiliation was Joe McCarthy? What political party do the people who organised censoring popular culture throughout the 20th century to remove anything deemed communist, subversive or ‘pornographic’? Who are burning books to this very day and taking over library and schoolboards to remove books for political reasons? What party do Larry ‘Ban Tiktok or force them to sell to me’ Ellison or Elon ‘Bought a social media company to flood it with right wing content to drown out actual journalists and ban left wing accounts’ Musk belong to? What party does Donald ‘Endless SLAPP suits’ Trump belong to?

Arianity says:

and stronger legislative guardrails against government officials using their investigative and regulatory powers to harass critics.

Only works if there’s someone to enforce it, as we’re seeing. On paper, the legislative guardrails are already pretty strong, but we have 3 branches of government that are completely uninterested, right now.

Anonymous Coward says:

The Phule

Nobody, and I mean nobody, actually supports fully free speech.

Want me to prove it? Tell me this: Should it be illegal for a guy holding a gun on broadway to shout ‘I’ll fucking kill you’

Good news! It already is.

Next question: Should it be illegal to lie about your business competitors to drive away their business? That’s also illegal, it’s slander.

Alright, how about this: Should it be illegal to lie about the product you’re selling? It already is, that’s fraud.

So, where do we disagree? Well, some people believe it should be illegal to blaspheme.

Some people believe it should be illegal to use slurs and say bigoted things.

Some people believe it should be illegal to bully people and to tell depressed teenagers to kill themselves.

Some people believe it should be illegal to criticize the government.

Some people believe it should be illegal to share classified government secrets.

Some people believe it should be illegal to share trade secrets of the business that hires you.

Some people believe that sharing missinformation of various sorts should be illegal.

there’s lots of positions on freedom of speech that people take. But almost no one takes the position that all speech should be free (other than a handful of insane philosophers)

Anonymous Coward says:

“Defamation law, ostensibly meant to protect reputations against malicious falsehoods, is being twisted into a bludgeon to silence criticism and accountability …”

No. Defamation law always was this. Nothing novel here.

It originated with medieval knights looking to silence some bloody peasant for calling them on things they did do.

If anything, the bizarre concept that truth should be allowed as a defence to a libel claim is the legal novelty. In the original, truth was no defence, peasants!

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: truth as a defense

truth being a defense to libel is, and always should be, the norm

I am going to disagree here on technical grounds. If truth is a defense, then the speaker bears the burden of proof. That has been the classical interpretation of truth-as-defense, particularly prior to Times v. Sullivan.

Far better is to have untruth be an element of defamation. The burden would be on the offended person, not the speaker. When I say that person-X is has done a bad thing, to prevail he should need to show that he has not. He can testify to that, but I could offer certified copies of the conviction or pre-trial diversion to refute the testimony. Still, the initial burden is on him.

This starts with pleading. If you want to claim for defamation, you should have to identify the untruthful statement and allege that it is untruthful. If the statement is not falsifiable then you lose on the motion to dismiss. Compare “Trump is a goof” to “Trump has a small penis”. Or “coders at techdirt are nincompoops” to “coders at techdirt broke preview and flag”.

You can get sued for any of those statements. But the burden should be on the plaintiff to show that the offending statement is falsifiable and untrue.

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