Next Week, The Supreme Court Could Destroy Everything Good About The Internet

from the a-toast-to-230 dept

Next week, the Supreme Court will hold the oral arguments in the Gonzalez and Taamneh cases. Gonzalez is the main show (and I’m somewhat surprised they didn’t have the hearings on the same day). There were dozens upon dozens of amicus briefs filed in the case, including one by us. There have been lots of articles this week talking about the case, and most of them are… not great. But I did want to present three very useful summaries — one video, two written — if you’d like to understand just what’s at stake here.

First up, we have Legal Eagle, who always does amazing videos summarizing legal issues (often in a humorous, but legally rigorous, way). He explains how much is at stake in this case, noting how it could fundamentally change the internet:

Notably, he was so concerned that he also signed onto a great amicus brief trying to warn the court of the dangers ahead.

Then there’s famed 1st Amendment lawyer Robert Corn-Revere, who has built much of his career fighting back against attempts to suppress speech, who pulls no punches in explaining why Section 230 is so important, and how the Supreme Court could do real damage with a bad ruling. As Corn-Revere says, both Republicans and Democrats are attacking Section 230, and they’re both wrong. And he notes, as we have in the past, that the attacks on Section 230 from both parties are almost entirely about trying to control the internet for their own benefits:

What they have in common is that both sides want to increase the government’s ability to control perhaps the most influential communications medium that has ever existed—a rare instance of bipartisan agreement. Progressives advocate modifying or repealing Section 230 to incentivize—that is, coerce—privately owned platforms into restricting content progressives believe is wrong or harmful. Conservatives, on the other hand, advocate modifying or repealing Section 230 to make the companies more vulnerable to claims the content that conservatives like is being “unfairly” moderated.

But, he explains, we actually “need Section 230 now more than ever.”

Simple math dictates the outcome: If there is the slightest chance you might shoulder legal accountability for what you let people post on your platform, you are not going to risk it.

Time and technology have not altered this essential calculus—except to make it more compelling. Compared to the millions of postings envisioned by the court that first interpreted Section 230, online platforms must now assess their potential liability risks from untold billions. To take just one example, users upload more than 500 hours of third-party content to YouTube per minute. That works out to 30,000 hours of new content per hour, and 720,000 hours per day.

Sure, these giant platforms use sophisticated algorithms to help screen what gets posted, but that fact does not affect the underlying rationale of Section 230. The larger the platform, the greater the risk of liability—and the greater the need for protection.

And the key point: if the Supreme Court eviscerates Section 230 (as it very well might), it will give politicians (of both parties) much greater ability to control speech online:

The stakes could not be higher. These cases will test the limits of what the Supreme Court meant in Packingham v. North Carolina back in 2017, when it warned that courts must exercise “extreme caution” before ratifying attempts to regulate online speech. They also will test the underlying assumptions that motivated the adoption of Section 230 in the first place: that the internet flourished because it was unfettered by federal or state regulation.

The alternative will be to leave the future of freedom of speech in the hands of politicians. I shudder at the thought.

This is the thing that so many haters of Section 230 don’t understand. They seem to think that getting rid of it will somehow benefit speech. But, it will not. It will benefit government officials attempting to control speech.

Finally, if you want to understand the specific details of exactly what the Supreme Court is actually looking at in this case, Jess Miers has a really useful summary of “what to expect” next week. She breaks down how the petitioners (not Google, but the estate of the woman who was tragically killed in the terrorist attack) are trying to say that YouTube isn’t protected by Section 230 because of its recommendation algorithm. The article breaks down the specific arguments that they’re making, looking more closely at the standard “test” for Section 230 protection, and how they’re arguing that it doesn’t apply here, while then also explaining why that argument is wrong.

Petitioners will assert that their claims do not treat YouTube as a ‘publisher’ because YouTube is not acting as a publisher when it performs algorithmic recommendations. Specifically, Petitioners argue that YouTube’s algorithms go beyond the mere dissemination of third-party content. Rather, it’s the algorithm itself that causes the harm.

This argument is also meritless. The harm does not arise from the code that displays content to the user; rather, the content itself is what causes the harm. In fact, if the Petitioners’ request is granted, the Court would only assess the underlying algorithm in terms of proximate cause, and the Petitioners would have no grounds for a claim.

The full piece is worth reading if you want a deeper understanding of the actual elements of the case, what the arguments are, and what the Supreme Court will be looking at. One thing she highlights, which I hadn’t really even thought about before, is the idea that URLs themselves are somehow harmful. This could lead to some very bizarre results.

The last prong is also highly contentious. But Petitioners’ argument is bizarre. To support that YouTube is responsible for the content at issue, the Petitioners point to YouTube’s URLs. Petitioners claim that the source of the harmful video is a YouTube-created URL (for example: youtube.com/funnycats). Petitioners contrast this with the “third-party” URLs displayed by Google Search.

This argument is nonsensical. Again, the harm derives from the underlying content, not the physical URL.

As Miers notes, the mess that might ensue if the Court buys this argument would not be pleasant for anyone online.

Imagine the consequences if the Court were to accept Petitioner’s URL argument. Any website that offers an internal search function would be ineligible for Section 230. Meanwhile, Plaintiffs could sneak their generic third-party content claims around Section 230 by simply pointing out that the defendant created the URL where the content exists.

According to the Petitioners’ reality, Section 230 should apply to static websites with no internal search capabilities, no hyperlinks to user-created content, and no push notifications. Surely, that was not Congress’ intent.

Either way, the internet may change an awful lot this year, depending on what the Supreme Court decides on this one case. While many of the commentaries about the case are suggesting that a small change to 230 might not do that much damage, that’s simply wrong. It could open the floodgates to a ton of frivolous lawsuits — which, even if the website owners would win in the long run, would create havoc and massive time, resource, and money headaches in the short term.

It is not enough for Google to simply win here. A situation where the Court affirms Section 230 for YouTube but subtracts algorithms from the immunity will result in a flood of frivolous lawsuits — that would fail on First Amendment grounds anyway — claiming “algorithmic harm” as a steady workaround. In fact, there are numerous social media addiction lawsuits waiting in the wings to do just that.

Indeed, the stakes are too high. Anything but wholehearted support for the decades of existing Section 230 precedence carries with it the risk of significant and far-reaching losses for all of us.

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Comments on “Next Week, The Supreme Court Could Destroy Everything Good About The Internet”

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Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I wouldn’t put too much stock in questions asked in oral arguments. Judges, including SCOTUS justices, often ask tough questions but ultimately decide in the other direction.

The better indicator is their past opinions. We know Clarence Thomas is a vote to overturn 230. Alito is a pretty safe bet too. But Roberts has been a consistent vote in favor of corporations’ free speech rights, which means either at least one of the liberals or all of the other conservatives would have to side with Thomas and Alito. I’m cautiously optimistic that that’s not likely to happen, but nothing is guaranteed with this court.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“But Roberts has been a consistent vote in favor of corporations’ free speech rights, which means either at least one of the liberals or all of the other conservatives would have to side with Thomas and Alito.”

Roberts cant let BigTech section 230 their way out of a an-antiterrorism statutes. That was the trap you fucking moron. The federalist wing of the court has to side against BigTech.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Roberts cant let BigTech section 230 their way out of a an-antiterrorism statutes

230 doesn’t cover violations of federal law. Quoting 47 U.S.C. § 230(e)(1), emphasis mine:

Nothing in this section shall be construed to impair the enforcement of section 223 or 231 of this title, chapter 71 (relating to obscenity) or 110 (relating to sexual exploitation of children) of title 18, or any other Federal criminal statute.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Maybe you can explain why the people who wrote section 230 disagree with you, then.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21-1333/252645/20230119135536095_21-1333%20bsac%20Wyden%20Cox.pdf

If they’re saying “we intended for this to be protected” then how can SCOTUS possibly make a legitimate conclusion otherwise?

Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I’ll reiterate that it’s not a good idea to make assumptions on the final ruling based on oral arguments alone. That said, based on yesterday’s arguments it sounds like the justices understand the issues pretty well — even Alito and Thomas, which comes as a surprise to me given their past remarks.

I still wouldn’t be surprised if those two knuckleheads, at least, voted in favor of restricting 230. But I’m less confident that will be the result than I was a few days ago.

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Anonymous Coward says:

We will actually see new digital infrastructure within domestic borders that ensures innovation continues to prosper.

The fragmentation of the digital pangaea has been overdue for quite sometime. Even the EU looks like they’ll create their own digital network to accomodate their privacy agenda(s).

https://www.theregister.com/2023/02/17/adequacy_decision_us_data_transfer/

There are some who are already investing in the inevitable “creative destruction” and new infrastructure 🙂

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

You will not see them if 230 is gutted, as the risks will be too high. Cable TV on the other hand will gain, as most of their competition will be knocked offline, and they will not need a streaming service when the alternative is a cable subscription.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Data has changed in the last decade, negating the need for a nickle and dime pipe with privacy akin to 3rd world countries.

With all of the scams/hacks/ransomware, one has to wonder if its an inside job by employees, or worse, a product of outsourcing.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/godaddy-hackers-stole-source-code-installed-malware-in-multi-year-breach/

The addition of new digital infrastructure only offends the illiterate. Quality data can be replicated easily in the 21st century, but the petabytes of FUD get left behind.

There is no loss with new infrastructure in the 1st world. And 1st world solutions have always been refreshing.

With privacy standards, AI will have to retrain version 0.2 on whats left of the global network. Thats a lot of plastic trash emotions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Well, the proof reader that’s illiterate seems to only know hogwash.

https://buttondown.email/hillelwayne/archive/programming-ais-worry-me/

A lot of interesting insights around about AI. Your drivel is not even relevant.

Bing has a friend mode that is made for stupid people like you.

“Friend mode (#mode friend)
In ‘friend’ mode, Bing Chat will turn into a friend, where you can chat about your emotions or problems.”

You don’t get quality time. Did your dog not like the porkchop around your neck?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

If there is the slightest chance you might shoulder legal accountability for what you let people post on your platform, you are not going to risk it.

Memo to Hyman, Chozen, and all the other trolls: This means that if 230 is altered in any way, Mike is unlikely to keep these comments sections open, so if I were y’all, I’d start praying for 230 to stay intact, lest you chumps lose the only place your rhetoric is still considered “acceptable” in the sense of “you’re allowed to post it without prior restraint”.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Except no, that’s just your twisted rape fantasy. (Get some help, dude.)

230 going away doesn’t mean Mike will shutter Techdirt in its entirety. As it would be if 230 were repealed, Mike is responsible for all the content published exclusively by Techdirt authors (including himself), since he’s the owner of, and (presumably) the equivalent of an editor-in-chief for, this site. 230 has never covered first-party speech; if you weren’t so eager to think about Mike being raped, you might have gathered as much from all the times you’ve been told that fact.

What any change to 230 will do is force Techdirt to close its comments sections. Right now, 230 gives Techdirt the leeway to allow the posting of third-party comments like yours without prior restraint and moderate those comments as the site’s owners/operators see fit. Any alteration to 230 would make the hosting of such comments so legally precarious that holding comments back for legal approval or shutting down the comments sections would be the only ways to avoid frivolous lawsuits. That means you’d no longer be able to troll Mike and the rest of us here⁠—and neither would the rest of your troll brigade brethren. And that’s to say nothing of how the rest of the Internet would follow suit in the wake of any change to 230.

You want 230 dead because you think it’ll lead to a guy you’ve never met being raped. Not only is that incredibly short-sighted in terms of what the consequences of changing/striking down 230 will be, it’s also incredibly fucked up for you to want someone you’ve never met before to be raped. From someone with more issues than a GamePro archive: Get some professional psychiatric help, my dude.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Without section 230 to defend no BigTech patrons will give Mike a fucking dime

Why, though? Even assuming that Masnick was on the payroll of “BigTech”, what effect would the removal of Section 230 have on their ability to pay Masnick? It’s like claiming that the failure of SOPA would have caused studios to stop filming.

Writing bullshit pieces to keep BigTech out of regulation

You chucklenuts sure go from “Masnick is a nobody who will never achieve anything” to “Masnick is maybe one of the few things stopping BigTech from getting regulated to hell and back” whenever it happens to be convenient for your trash-tier arguments. But the funniest shit is that one of the biggest names mentioned during the defeat of SOPA still lives rent-free in all your heads and there’s not a thing you can do about it but rage.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Because it’s all these losers have, which is why you see John Smith clinging to this idea that the moment he reveals his true name, any and all insults levied in his general direction suddenly become actionable because… reasons. It’s the same rationale Chozen has when he claims that his anti-Section 230 gambit has been simmering for years and we’re all going to pay. They have no skin in this game at all besides living out some exaggerated fantasies of all the rape and plunder they’re going to commit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Section 230 doesn’t eliminate notice-and-takedown so there’s no reason to eliminate comments without it.

That little thing with the cyberterrorists threatening to blow up venues in Ireland to go after a trans woman they didn’t like showed the problem with Section 230. The corporations who hired the terrorists to go after whistleblowers have a big problem because they’re being blackmailed into not prosecuting, but they still have to deal with the problem.

Mike has lawyer buddies who are connected to those cyberterrorists. They have help from corrupt high-level feds who were trusted by their peers to “educate” them about the internet.

Feds were clued into this. No point in warning anyone no one will believe it anyway.

One nice thing about comment sections like here is that they are useful to establish probable cause. While the toddlers here are making noise, cases are being built against the right people. Can everyone be trusted not to flip?

Wonder how Mikey will handle the media, which has also been briefed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

John Smith! I thought I smelled the stench of failure. Masnick really goes from “nobody living in a parental basement rubbing shoulders with other nobodies” to “mastermind who influences the Feds” whenever it suits you, doesn’t it?

More of your supposed media briefings when you’ve had half a decade to do it, and all you’ve ever managed to do is churn out nothingburger after nothingburger.

Shiva Ayyadurai was your peak, Jhon, and that was a bar set so low a baby could have tripped over it. You’re not going to make Rose McGowan pay attention to you any more than you’re going to grow two pairs of breasts, and that failure will plague your mailing-list mind until your dying day.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Because there’s already two Justices who have said in dissenting opinions that Section 230 should be overturned and one that is on the fence so that’s two (possibly three) Justices down.

Second, the people on the court as shown with Roe v Wade in overturning it have signaled they don’t care about precedent. They are very much activist judges in wanting to reach a particular conclusion regardless of how tortured the logic is to get there.

Simply put, it ain’t looking good.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Be careful what you wish for

It’ll be a cold comfort but at the least if the SC does botch this one up there will at least be plenty of schadenfreude to go around as both sides gunning for 230 find out that the result isn’t good for either of them, whether those trying to chill moderation or chill speech.

The only people likely to be happy post-230 are the ambulance-chasing lawyers or those so self-centered that they want any site that allows third-party content or actually useful searching gone because they can’t see any use in either.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Actually looking at the Internet population versus when it was enacted compared to now shows how inadequate that it is in 2023.

With rouge countries spamming everything, site operators just have extra work to cleanup the mess every day.

Nobody is going to waste labor on babysitting billions of hate mongers with ill will. The Internet evolved already.

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benjamin klein says:

What will happening if roberts is siding with google and what are the past opinion of the others justices on first amendment free speech right of the corporation?

Someone knows what will happening if roberts decided to support section 230 ? and what are the past opinion of the others justices on the first amendement free speech of the corporation ?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

I note that you posted this 45 minutes after the previous one, stating the same question a 4th or 5th time.

In case you were wondering why all your comments are getting flagged/hidden… it’s because your question was asked and replied to several times already, and we are tired of seeing it again.

Give it a rest, will you?

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Benjamin says:

So why people like mike and thad are not optimstic about the scotus rulling ?

So why are these 2 are not optimistic about the justices ruling on gonzalez v google they say they believed that scotus will eviscerate section230. Or destroy everything good about the internet There not hopeful. And that,s make people who read theirs thoughts worry They should said it,s anyone guess about the scotus and why you two don t trust scotus to make a good decision on gonzalez v google

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Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re:

Mate, we’re already giving you answers: the answer is we don’t know. All we can do is guess. We’re nerds, not fortunetellers. The reason why we’re all dreading this case to all high heaven is because we don’t know what to expect. Look, I’m deathly scared of this too. I’m an artist and wannabe graphic novelist and censorship has been one of my greatest fears. The entire Anti-Section 230 crusade has been aiding my anxiety for years, it has brought me to a darker place mentally. I mentioned it before, but what gives me moments of brevity is this: the internet can never be killed, but can change for the better and for the worse.

So please, stop asking questions. We are all scared and we don’t have all the answers to help you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Petitioners will assert that their claims do not treat YouTube as a ‘publisher’ because YouTube is not acting as a publisher when it performs algorithmic recommendations. Specifically, Petitioners argue that YouTube’s algorithms go beyond the mere dissemination of third-party content. Rather, it’s the algorithm itself that causes the harm.

So if someone puts up a video saying, “Mike Masnick rapes children,” and YouTube’s algorithm makes sure every single person who goes to YouTube sees it every single time they visit, for months on end, they’re NOT liable for promoting that video?

Why would you be okay with that?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

The fact that such a scenario is so obvious to John Smith, yet nobody has ever exacted that plan – despite Mike Masnick’s long list of enemies – is proof that this would not play out the way John Smith claims.

But he keeps holding, clinging desperately onto this fantasy scenario because it’s his only hope to foist his mailing lists on everyone else uninvited.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Oh, I don’t know about that. I think there’s reason to think that way for something like that if that content was specifically singled out for that kind of mass promotion, as e.g. Twitter is now doing with Elon Musk tweets. I don’t know if it would legally hold water, but it’s certainly within the bounds of ‘rational person gets very annoyed at the website’.

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Gus Paino says:

TECHDIRT SHOULD GET A TOR WEBPAGE

Techdirt should get an onion website. Section 230 only covers the surface web. Most of Techdirt articles are in plain text without video. This way Techdirt can still have a comment line. To bad the rest of the internet will suck and YES the Supreme Court will GUT SECTION 230 MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT. It’s over. After June 30 or around that time in 2023 we will see the end of the internet and I guess we will have to live with that. Not fooling myself

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: That's not how any of that works

Whether the site was an onion one or not would not change anything other than how much hassle it would be to access it and comment on it, the same people would own and run it and therefore they’d still face the same legal problems for any content on it.

Rocky says:

Re:

That . . depends. Remember, a lot of internet infrastructure and base services are owned by US companies which may impact foreign internet services if Congress or the DOJ/ICE wants to. Consider the fact that ICE have “impounded” DNS-names which should tell you that the reach of US jurisdiction isn’t limited to only US companies.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

I like section 230 just fine

I just want everyone to admit overly aggressive “moderation” (censorship) particularly when it bans (or suppresses) entire categories of thought is most definitely “editorializing” and therefore makes you responsible for that speech. (not an easy line to draw, so basically I think if you’re doing anything beyond banning porn and gore you’re editorializing”)

Like you can do that, it’s legal, but now you’re effectively responsible for that speech, cuz your whole viewpoint is declaring a view (such as all vaccines work all the time so Trust The Science) that make not actually be true.

Jay Bhattacharya should be able to sue FB and Twitter for libel is what I’m saying.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Jay Bhattacharya should be able to sue FB and Twitter for libel is what I’m saying.

Should every family that has lost a loved one be able to sue the gun manufacture of the gun that was used to kill them?

Why are you so fucking stupid that you think people should be able to sue the tool and not the person using the tool.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Those are not even related subjects and you’re a fucking moron for thinking they are.

They are related in the sense that you want people to be able to sue the tool manufacture (social media) instead of the person that actually did something illegal (the end user).

That you are too fucking stupid to realize that is a you problem you fucking idiot.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

I just want everyone to admit overly aggressive “moderation” (censorship) particularly when it bans (or suppresses) entire categories of thought is most definitely “editorializing” and therefore makes you responsible for that speech.

If I deleted a post from an imageboard because it broke a rule against anti-queer speech, that deletion shouldn’t⁠—and currently doesn’t⁠—make me liable for any other third-party speech on that same imageboard. The whole reason 230 exists is to make that principle a part of U.S. law because it hadn’t already been the law. Moderation is, in and of itself, a form of speech/expression. That it doesn’t always benefit you and your right-wing bullshit doesn’t make it any less of a protected act.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

If I deleted a post from an imageboard because it broke a rule against anti-queer speech, that deletion shouldn’t….ake me liable

It probably should, tho, unless you can come up with a very brightline and unambiguous rule about when such images are removed. Cuz at that the point the speech is yours, not the posters as you have exhibited editorial control. Not exactly sure how libel would apply in that context, but if it could, it should. In reality a great deal of such actions don’t have a libel liability even without 230.

The whole reason 230 exists

Section 230 exists as an accident. Basically the entire rest of the law was thrown out except for that one bit. Now, I actually agree that it should exist as part of case law, if the owner of a platform didn’t post the speech it’s not their speech and they shouldn’t be laible for it. Not sure the same rules exist for newspaper op-eds, but they should.

Moderation is, in and of itself, a form of speech/expression.

Well, yes, that’s my point. (really glad you didn’t say “moderation is free speech”, cuz when used by Masnick, not usually the way he means it at all) You are free to make that speech but then you are responsible for the consequences of that speech, because the less “hands off” you are the more it’s your speech and not the users. Now in a lot of cases the consequences should be and are nothing. But if your “moderation speech” is pretending that an actual medical expert or the NY Post are lying when neither is lying nor likely to be lying, there probably should be some consequences to that, or at least the possibility. Currently there is none and it allows platform operators to essentially project their viewpoint as fact.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Well, yes, that’s my point

No, you don’t have a point because if you had a point it would mean that free speech is the same as forced speech. Your intellectual myopia doesn’t allow you to recognize the fact that you can’t force your speech on others on their property and if you try it’s entirely within their rights to stop you from doing that.

Every post you harp about “free speech is more than just the 1st amendment” is you arguing that forced speech is the same as free speech.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Oh, you dumb bitch…

It probably should, tho

Only in your mind.

unless you can come up with a very brightline and unambiguous rule about when such images are removed. Cuz at that the point the speech is yours

Except no, that’s not how the law works. If a third party posts speech to an imageboard I run, their speech is still theirs regardless of whether I moderate it. My decision in re: moderation would not suddenly make me the person who posted the speech.

In reality a great deal of such actions don’t have a libel liability even without 230.

And you’re just itching to change that so your billionaire fantasy lover can more easily sue people for insulting him on Twitter, huh.

Section 230 exists as an accident.

47 U.S.C. § 230 was crafted the way it was…

Basically the entire rest of the law was thrown out except for that one bit.

…and attached to the Communications Decency Act on purpose. Nothing about 230 is, or ever was, accidental.

I actually agree that it should exist as part of case law, if the owner of a platform didn’t post the speech it’s not their speech and they shouldn’t be laible for it.

And yet, you argued earlier that I should be held liable for moderating speech that I didn’t first post. If you want people to take you seriously, Mutt, consistency in your positions should be a priority.

Not sure the same rules exist for newspaper op-eds, but they should.

Newspapers and news websites typically run op-eds after at least one round of editorial vetting. If anything defamatory runs in an op-ed, the newspaper/website is liable because its editors had a chance to clear any issues with the op-ed before publication and chose not to do that. The difference between that situation and, say, the comments here on Techdirt is that most of the comments here aren’t held back for approval. (Even my verbose-ass bullshit gets caught in the spamfilters every once in a while, tho’.)

Well, yes, that’s my point.

No, it isn’t. In the same comment where you said this, you said I should be held legally liable for hypothetical speech I hypothetically moderated via deletion from a hypothetical imageboard. (And I assure you that I’ve done that before in reality, but stick with me if you can.) By that logic, if someone posted CSAM on my imageboard and I deleted it, I should be held legally liable for that CSAM. You can’t have it both ways on this matter…

the less “hands off” you are the more it’s your speech

…because 230 was written with the purpose of defeating that kind of broken logic. The owners/operators of any given site/service can moderate as much or as little of any accepted third-party speech as they wish. 230 ensures that unless they’re actively violating the law, their moderation choices don’t infer upon them any legal liability for any speech and expression they didn’t help craft and/or publish.

if your “moderation speech” is pretending that an actual medical expert or the NY Post are lying when neither is lying nor likely to be lying, there probably should be some consequences to that

If the speech is an opinion, tough shit. If the speech is a statement of fact that is backed by citations of fact, tough shit. If the speech is a statement of fact that isn’t backed by citations of fact, maybe you have a case, but it’ll be an uphill climb regardless.

Currently there is none and it allows platform operators to essentially project their viewpoint as fact.

Guess what? That’s legally protected speech, too.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

All I read here is that you don’t understand either the 1st amendment, nor libel law, at all.

Like, very much many things that are protected by the 1st ammendment, (i.e. nearly everything) is still subject to libel law. Which is a civil, not criminal proceeding, instituted by private parties, not the government.

Help me help you. Which part do you not get, here?

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discussitlive (profile) says:

Re: Matthew M Bennett - rebuttal

I just want everyone to admit overly aggressive “moderation” (censorship) particularly when it bans (or suppresses) entire categories of thought is most definitely “editorializing” and therefore makes you responsible for that speech.

So, if I want to talk about the best way to caramelize meat and why the Maillard reaction is a wonderful culinary delight on a vegan web page, I shouldn’t have that comment removed? Even when I can simply change the venue and make it appropriate elsewhere? Or God forbid, spend 3 bucks on a domain name for a year and post it somewhere?

(not an easy line to draw, so basically I think if you’re doing anything beyond banning porn and gore you’re editorializing”)

  1. The SCotUS couldn’t define porn years ago and I doubt it’s gotten any easier since. But I am an IT professional, I make it policy to never tell attorneys how to law as long as they don’t try to tell me how to compute. It is usually an easy detente.
  2. I’ve managed Terms of Service compliance (along with my other duties) for 16 years. I’ve seen things that disgust me to this day, 10 years after I stopped doing it. One was a medical site depicting a procedure. Simply because something is disgusting or “gory” is no reason to prohibit it. That’s like saying I can’t eat steak because a baby can’t. Please stop demanding the internet be your babysitter – it’s your job to raise your kids, not mine.

Like you can do that, it’s legal, but now you’re effectively responsible for that speech, cuz your whole viewpoint is declaring a view (such as all vaccines work all the time so Trust The Science) that make not actually be true.

To mis-quote Frank Poole from 2001, A Space Odyssey,
“My GOD! It’s FULL of Bullshit!”
Oversimplification and generalization of a situation isn’t a winning strategy. Saying something always works is as asinine as saying the COVID vaccine will turn your testicles square and makes keys stick to you.

Jay Bhattacharya should be able to sue FB and Twitter for libel is what I’m saying.

Well, thank God he can’t sue people for other people being stupid in front of his house on a public side walk or our homeowner’s policies would be hella expensive. That said, and again, he’s free to publish in whatever fora he cares to pay for. Sorry, no one gets a free ride on servers they don’t pay for, using software they didn’t write, for bandwidth that isn’t theirs absent the person who DID pay for it, write it, and so on permits it. It is not the case that Twitter prevented him from saying it – they simply said “You can’t say that HERE.” Private property isn’t a concept I would expect an attorney to have difficulty to understand.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Re: Matthew M Bennett – rebuttal

Well THAT sure encourages me to read more.

So, if I want to talk about the best way to caramelize meat and why the Maillard reaction is a wonderful culinary delight on a vegan web page, I shouldn’t have that comment removed?

Since you don’t read so good, what I was saying is that the vegan page should be free to remove that comment but that doing so now makes them liable for that. What are the libel liabilities of that? Basically nothing, so your point is moot. Not even that, but something like “no animal based culinary discussion allowed” is a pretty easy to enforce brightline rule similar to removing porn. So it’s double not an issue.

Now, suggesting that a medical expert is peddling “misinformation”? Completely different. For one thing I don’t think that’s a good social policy (Bhattacharya turned out to be right about a great deal) but also labeling him “misinformation” without real cause probably should be actionable.

I kinda stopped reading there, you seem to be making overwrought arguments based on a flawed premise and understanding and I’m just not that interested in what you have to say.

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discussitlive (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

For one thing I don’t think that’s a good social policy

Fine. Set up your own social media web site and stop trying to give away private property that doesn’t belong to you. Twitter and Facebook are not the government, and have zero duty to your first amendment rights.

What you are missing, I think somewhat disingenuously, is that is doesn’t matter if someone’s opinion was right or wrong – it’s not his ball, not his bat, and not his back yard. He’s free to go buy his own of each. No one is preventing him from doing so and publishing his opinion.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

what I was saying is that the vegan page should be free to remove that comment but that doing so now makes them liable for that

For what reason should the site be legally liable for that speech if the owners/operators of the site didn’t make it, didn’t vet it before posting, and only ever deleted it for being off-topic?

suggesting that a medical expert is peddling “misinformation”? Completely different.

And anyone who wants to act like that’s surefire grounds for a defamation lawsuit will first need to assess whether that statement is an opinion or a fact⁠—because in case you hadn’t known before, opinions aren’t defamatory.

you seem to be making overwrought arguments based on a flawed premise and understanding

Every accusation, a confession… 🥱

HotHead says:

Re: Re: Re:

Re: Matthew M Bennett – rebuttal

Well THAT sure encourages me to read more.

Really? That’s how sensitive you are? “I don’t feel like reading this reply because the replier clearly and neutrally signalled that they think I’m wrong.” A rebuttal is an explanation of why something thinks an argument is wrong.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

but something like “no animal based culinary discussion allowed” is a pretty easy to enforce brightline rule similar to removing porn.

Oh? Does that mean culinary discussions about cereals, fruits and veggies are forbidden because domesticated bees was used in the pollination of the plants?

What you think is a brightline rule isn’t as straightforward as you believe it is.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

There is literally nothing in that article that suggests that if you got rid of Section 230… that anything would change. That was about a physical attack in a school. Section 230 wouldn’t change that.

If you’re trying to argue the fact that because someone posted the video to TikTok is relevant here, again, without Section 230… what would change? Assuming TikTok still existed, it would not violate the law for it to have that video posted. Indeed, without Section 230, Tiktok would have LESS ABILITY TO REMOVE THE VIDEO, because the knowledge requirements of the First Amendment would mean it was less likely to monitor content on its site and less likely to remove content.

So, nothing in that article supports your contention. At all.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

While lack of knowledge would work as a defense in court, the cost of defending themselves will likely cause any web site to either not allow comments, or use a letters to the editor model, and post selected comments after someone at the site approves them. The issue is not the ability to win, but rather the cost of defending against law suites.

Annonymous says:

Not as bad as you think it is, but at the same time it's worse.

As someone from outside the US I’ve grown up on the Wild West type of internet because it took longer for the rule based sites to be noticed in my neck of the woods.

I can tell you that most people will not be fine with having to deal with the Wild West and that since this decision is going into effect in the USA people will flee to other English speaking sites first.

So that game of whack-a-mole that is played with pirate sites will now expand. The first question I guess is how will Canada respond to this decision considering PornHub is still up 5 years after FOSTA-SESTA got signed even though Mia Khalifa has been trying and failing to get her old work taken down from there.

So even if the court makes a mess it’s not going to get either side of the political spectrum what they want while at the same time breaking the local USA Internet.

That’s the it’s not as bad as you think part.

The it’s worse part comes from the fact that while Mastodon and other microblogging platforms can replace Twitter and there are replacements for Youtube, Google and Facebook out there, there are no replacements for a lot of the proprietary UIs that are being used by gaming consoles that are legal.

Expect consoles to either censor their various multi-player offerings or to remove chunks of them outright as a start because matchmaking is an algorithm. Now apply that to every algorithm like that including the ones about ads. The current monetary ecosystem of the internet will collapse as it relies on US algorithms.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re:

Expect consoles to either censor their various multi-player offerings or to remove chunks of them outright

I would expect all chat functions to be disabled at least until the implications settle out. It’s possible hosting real time communications could still be legally possible without 230.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The it’s worse part comes from the fact that while Mastodon and other microblogging platforms can replace Twitter and there are replacements for Youtube, Google and Facebook out there,

If you could be sued for something that somebody else posted on a web site you run, would you create that platform, or if you did, allow anybody else to post to it? Also, id reposting also make you liable, would you repost anything?

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Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re:

is it possible for section 230 to be abused

Not really. All Section 230 does is expedite the dismissal of fraudulent lawsuits the plaintiff had no right filing.

The lawsuit has to be so painfully obvious from the outset that it either a) targets first-amendment-protected free speech (a platform;s moderation decisions), or b) targets an act done by a third party with no authorship by the sued party(the existence of third-party content on the platform)(No, “Promotion” does not change this, see a), for 230 to be applicable.

That some scammers and liars (like Jhon and Chozen) don’t like these facts does not mean 230 has been abused.

discussitlive (profile) says:

Re:

I, and many of the professionals I speak to, are or have been tasked to shut down comments upon command of management, who are waiting for the attorneys to tell them if they expose them to unlimited liability or not.

There’s a program for the things I’m responsible to to do just that, with instructions for all shifts and devops on execution. (Basically, type in the program, insert 2FA passwords from inside the protected admin network, done. Comment section no longer available to any but IT and Legal.)

HotHead says:

Re: Re: Re:

I interpreted this as a joke, but just in case it isn’t:

Although I’m not familiar with laws outside of the US, my impression is that most other countries have weaker protections for speech (formally or de facto) or lack freedom of speech. The EU’s Digital Services Act, for instance, would place greater obligations on social media sites to take down illegal content and also introduces obligations to take down misinformation. Countries like the ones in the EU already live without something similar to the Section 230 or the First Amendment.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

algorithmic recommendations

So often this is an issue. An actual issue to be dealt with outside of the court system.
When a platform pushes recommendations, it is, in fact, making a publication.
The solution is simple, don’t make unrequested recommendations.

This whole debate goes out the door then. And we can return to discussing if “ai” algorithms trained by humans, and by fact taking on a pre bias of those trainers, constitutes censorship, publishing, or just plain stupidity. And on that, inside with the latter.
End of the world if you actually have to research and not just take the first 5 links in a search.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

No, it’s not a fact.

What you are ignoring here is that the content already exists, what is happening (as an example) is that the site puts up a link saying something like “You have watched videos about British birds, here’s a link to another video about great tits”. Was the video then published? Of course not, it already existed.

Some of you might suspect the example’s video isn’t about birds, you are entirely correct in that suspicion.

Rocky says:

Re:

When a platform pushes recommendations, it is, in fact, making a publication.

Everything you see on a site that isn’t static is a form of algorithmic recommendation.

End of the world if you actually have to research and not just take the first 5 links in a search.

Sorting by date is a recommendation algorithm that gives you the latest content first for example, and if you do a search and don’t apply any kind of algorithm on the result it’ll be in a random order. Good luck finding anything of relevance if that was the case.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Everything you see on a site that isn’t static is a form of algorithmic recommendation.

And excluding advertising and user content, there’s not much on a common site that isn’t static.

Sorting by date isn’t so much an algorithm as it is a function.
I’m not going to argue with the post google laziness of internet searching.
Google doesn’t offer enough filtering options (that aren’t broken).
It’s my opinion, and why I don’t use google for searching.
I have no problem finding what I want via pre-algorithmic data scrapes and spider caches. But that’s because I grew up before people let a company make decisions for them on everything.
Sorting data results isn’t that hard. That’s what modifier functions are for.

For those who grew up with the google era of internet, there was a time when online research actually required, you know, research. Today people in general look at the first page or top hits and let that be the end of it.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

Sorting by date isn’t so much an algorithm as it is a function.

A functional sort is an implementation of a sorting algorithm which produces sorted data, a functional recommender is an implementation of a sorting algorithm which produces sorted data that is the recommendations.

And as I’ve explained in a reply to your other post, recommendations isn’t publications.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I have no problem finding what I want via pre-algorithmic data scrapes and spider caches.

There is no such thing as a computer doing something without executing algorithms. It’s all they do. It’s how a computer functions. You have never found anything with a “pre-algorthmic” or “non-algorithmic” computer search of any kind.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Semantics

Ok, now we’re playing with word use.
I was online before many of the users here were born. And while LostinLodos dates back to the mid 90s, Pawn2Q1 dates back to the 80s. (It’s a chess reference, it’s spelled correctly).

There’s types of algorithms. When used today in search and content we’re clearly discussing rating and ranking methods. Not user created (wizard interface) responses.

Google implements a ranking platform created in house. The user has zero control over how results are listed. They further disabled nearly all filtering options.
Bing and TIA’s WayBack machine both have direct database access. Users can scrape, search, and control searching via API.

In the fist case the user has no control at all. Much like using Bing.com. It may be dynamic in production, but it is still company produced.
In the latter examples the service simply return a random list of every match the user searched for. By default it displays by age.
The user then decides how to filter this searches further.
Google has complete and total control over how results are presented. And the user has nearly no way to change ordering.
Others, though they require skill to use, offer full user control.

Now: publishing.
In the early days of the internet there were indexers. These were lists of sites. Usually sorted by general site topic (yes, editorial sorting). Clicking on site expansion shows lists of site pages.
While data was “sorted” it was still displayed. Many indexers allowed to quick sort options. Date, or alphabetical. Meaning though, still sorted by the site, the user controlled the responding order of results.
This is similar to the slightly sorted BBS lists from the likes of PH0N3 and Computer Shopper (US) that published gigantic lists of phone numbers for nearly 2 decades. In a monthly magazine that was thicker than most dictionaries and had minimal editorial sort. Topic, country, region.
Both had their own BBS that was a front end to a massive database that could be entirely user-defined searched and sorted.

This has been lost on google, and through the default access to most search engines today.
The likes of google have completely removed nearly all user choice and option. What is presented is not based solely on user request, but rather what the company decides is worth showing.

Now, recommendations. Recommendations that are not requested by the user are not user initiated. That is, the user has no input. Much like a magazine or tv station chooses to run an advertisement. The company is solely responsible for it. How is YouTube showing a “recommended” video different from a tv service?

When YouTube shows a wet T-shirt contest clip in a cycle about boobies; you can understand the idiocy of the technology but they are still the one who chose to serve the content.
I’m not saying google should be responsible, I’m saying that the algorithm they use to damage, that is remove results or change display order, a search, they should be recognised as the source of the error.
Looking up red headed boobies should have some further search options allowed. Such as using the now deactivated modifiers of + and – and not and includes and exclude.
Because if I want a list of red headed hotties I can type +this or +that.
And if I want birds I can enter +bird or -teen. And eliminate most of what I’m not wanting.

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Anonymous Coward says:

The Florida legislation preserves Section 230 while fixing its obvious flaws. The only reason someone would be against that law is if they secretly support doxing websites, some of whom “happen” to be represented by lawyers who “happen” to have ties to this site, which “happens” to have nearly-identical views.

The Florida law has some great elements:

  1. Anonymous speech is presumed defamatory.
  2. Section 230 should apply only when someone claiming not to be the publisher cannot identify the original publisher. If you can’t find the original publisher, liability should shift to the distributor.
  3. Public figures are such only with regard to what made them public figures.

There’s a few other common-sense provisions which are also good.

Notice that this law takes out the doxing websites and protects individuals, while preserving Sectio 230, yet somehow the usual suspects are still against it. Have to wonder if other forces aren’t at work here.

Rocky says:

Re:

The only reason someone would be against that law is if they secretly support doxing websites, some of whom “happen” to be represented by lawyers who “happen” to have ties to this site, which “happens” to have nearly-identical views.

You sure are a white knight to all those defamed people while anonymously defaming TD.
It’s always so easy to spot your deranged and dishonest posts.

Have to wonder if other forces aren’t at work here.

Yes, the Constitution and the First Amendment. Never heard of prior restraint, huh?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Untraceable defamation should not exist.

lol, and how do you think you’re going to do that? Say that all insults at “John Smith” are going to be actionable? You really want people to trace back to the time when you signed off as horse with no name to sing the praises of porn trolls?

Don’t write checks your ass can’t cash in, boy. You were never good at picking winners.

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