No One Has Any Clue How Texas’ Social Media Law Can Actually Work (Because It Can’t Work)

from the this-is-all-so-so-dumb dept

Lots of people are still trying to mentally process the bizarrely confused 5th Circuit ruling that has reinstated Texas’ social media content moderation law. I wrote an initial analysis of the ruling here, and then a further analysis of just some of the most egregious problems with it over at The Daily Beast. This week I’ve been at the TrustCon conference, where multiple people who actually have to implement the law have been repeatedly telling me that they have no idea how anyone even thinks it’s possible to follow the law. Because it is, quite clearly, impossible.

The Atlantic’s Charlie Warzel released an article asking if this ruling “is the beginning of the end of the internet?” which may feel hyperbolic, but at the very least, if the ruling stands, it’s certainly the end of the internet as we know it. What comes after that is going to be something quite different. Warzel interviewed me for the piece, among some others, but the key part of the article comes from Stanford’s Daphne Keller, noting that it seems unlikely that even Texas legislators who wrote and passed the law have any idea what the law will do:

Keller, of Stanford’s Cyber Policy Center, has tried to game out future scenarios, such as social networks having a default non-moderated version that might quickly become unusable, and a separate opt-in version with all the normal checks and balances (terms-of-service agreements and spam filters) that sites have now. But how would a company go about building and running two simultaneous versions of the same platform at once? Would the Chaos Version run only in Texas? Or would companies try to exclude Texas residents from their platforms?

“You have potential situations where companies would have to say, ‘Okay, we’re kicking off this neo-Nazi, but he’s allowed to stay on in Texas,” Masnick said. “But what if the neo-Nazi doesn’t live in Texas?” The same goes for more famous banned users, such as Trump. Do you ban Trump’s tweets in every state except Texas? It seems almost impossible for companies to comply with this law in a way that makes sense. The more likely reality, Masnick suggests, is that companies will be unable to comply and will end up ignoring it, and the Texas attorney general will keep filing suit against them, causing more simmering resentment among conservatives against Big Tech.

What is the endgame of a law that is both onerous to enforce and seemingly impossible to comply with? Keller offered two theories: “I think passing this law was so much fun for these legislators, and I think they might have expected it would get struck down, so the theater was the point.” But she also believes that there is likely some lack of understanding among those responsible for the law about just how extreme the First Amendment is in practice. “Most people don’t realize how much horrible speech is legal,” she said, arguing that historically, the constitutional right has confounded logic on both the political left and right. “These legislators think that they’re opening the door to some stuff that might offend liberals. But I don’t know if they realize they are also opening the door to barely legal child porn or pro-anorexia content and beheading videos. I don’t think they’ve understood how bad the bad is.”

This is almost certainly true. Remember, the bill’s own author once got so angry at me on Twitter that he seemed to imply that he knows that Section 230 pre-empts his entire bill.

So… as it stands we have a bill where the social media companies have no clue how to comply with the bill, and the lawmakers who wrote the bill have no idea how to comply with the bill (and don’t seem to much care). The whole thing is just pure nonsense — legislating out of pure spite.

Texas lawmakers don’t actually understand any of this. What they wanted was to make “big tech” feel bad. But they didn’t actually do that either. They just made everyone confused, because no one in their right mind would pass a law that effectively requires all horrible content to remain online in perpetuity.

But that’s what Texas lawmakers did.

So, now they’re the dog that caught the car, and while they almost certainly don’t realize it yet (assuming the Supreme Court doesn’t step in and fix things), they’re going to find out that they don’t actually like their jaws clamped to a car zipping down the highway…

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Comments on “No One Has Any Clue How Texas’ Social Media Law Can Actually Work (Because It Can’t Work)”

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Koby (profile) says:

Dont Like It Dont Subscribe To It

It’s only “unworkable” to people who want to shut down speech. The idea that you might just need to allow everyone to keep their account and then let the chips fall where they may is a foreign concept to some. But it WAS the legal landscape under the Cubby v. Compuserve court decision for several years, and it can work today.

-Koby: Techdirt’s resident cancel culture victim

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

It’s unworkable to people who want a usable internet. Using the government to force every website with user-generated content to be an even worse version of 4chan is so far beyond idiotic that we’d probably have to dive into German to find the right word for it.

MathFox says:

Re: Legal obligations

In many countries there are legal obligations for a site owner to regulate speech. Slander laws in Europe demand action from moderators against some posts that would be protected under Texas law. There are several (historical) political posters that show more nudity than Facebook would deem acceptable. And there’s the Thai Lèse-majesté law and dictators that freely interpret anti-terrorism law for punishing crotics…

But Texas chose to open that can of worms!

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

In many countries there are legal obligations for a site owner to regulate speech.

It’s true the laws from several countries will simply not be compatible across the internet. Corporations will need to plant their flag somewhere and take a stand. If they want to take their business to a high-tax nation where the government forces them to remove posts, that’s fine, and I’m confident that the tech oligopoly will break if that happens.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re: "Nuh-uh" is not a viable strategy.

Corporations will need to plant their flag somewhere and take a stand.

To your point: in this particular case, the companies have already planted their flag in the courts (and will almost certainly continue on to the Supreme Court). What more do you want from them?

The options are:
* shutting down entirely
* exclude the jurisdiction from coverage (as best as possible, say, by IP and/or route) (Optionally, Balkanizing with a version of the app for that jurisdiction.)
* acceding to the demands globally
* initiating or defending lawsuits based on rights (and laws) that preclude the law in question

While many companies would be willing to take the last option (especially if ganged with like-minded corporations and sponsors), none of those options entails the argument “Nuh-uh”. The side with the guns over-rules the “Nuh-uh” argument every time.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

exclude the jurisdiction from coverage

That might also break the law.

“A social media platform may not censor a user, a user’s expression, or a user’s ability to receive the expression of another person based on:

(3) a user’s geographic location in this state or any part of this state”

https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/872/billtext/pdf/HB00020F.pdf

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 The 'You MUST do business in our state so we can sue' clause

Strange, I thought conservatives/republicans were big fans of the free market and letting businesses choose who they will and will not offer service to…

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GDSmith says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Re:3 The 'You MUST do business in our state so we can sue' clause

“I thought conservatives/republicans were big fans of the free market and letting businesses choose who they will and will not offer service to”

Conservatives are the world’s biggest fans of saying one thing, doing precisely the opposite, then lying when called on it.

G aslighting <—
O bstruction
P rojection <—

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Google restarts Project Dragonfly and sells that to China.

Microsoft reinstates Linkedin in full.

Big Tech moves to Singapore and becomes state censors on demand for Singapore’s leaders, removing anything and everything Singapore’s leaders deem offensive. And there’s A LOT of things Singapore’s leaders deem offensive, like proper criticism of the country.

Thanks Koby! And thank you, Texas, for legitimizing totalitarianism.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Someday you will learn the difference between shutting speech, and being told to take you speech elsewhere because you are preventing other people from having a reasonable discussion on topics you disagree with. You and your friends are anti free speech, because you want to force people to agree with you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When people like you make a site so toxic that they leave, and if you have your way you would follow the, until they give up open social media. If they form private clubs on the Internet, you would be arguing that the law should force such clubs to allow give you membership.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Flagging isn’t censorship. It’s us telling you we don’t want you here.

You are more than free to take ypur bile and shit up your own corner of the Internet, the large common carrier not allowed to censor your NeoNazi-worshipping ass.

Unless your goal is to try to pollute this space with actionable threats to our physical well-being.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Speaking as someone who has most of his posts flagged, there is little more satisfying than watching your opponents flail in futility trying to silence opposition that refuses to go away.

It’s more annoying when our host redacts conversations by censoring my posts, but it’s at least pleasing that he demonstrates thereby that his commitment to free speech is thin indeed.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

A commitment to free speech doesn’t require anyone to host your speech. You have the right to speak your mind, but you can’t make anyone else listen⁠—or turn their private property into your personal soapbox.

Spout your exterminationist TERF rhetoric all you want, dipshit. (And let’s be clear: Your hatred of trans people is precisely about wanting them to not exist any more.) But Mike is under no obligation⁠—legally, morally, or ethically⁠—to let your posts through the spamfilter or keep them from being flagged. If you can cite any law or legal precedent that says otherwise, now’s the fucking time.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You are correct that he has no such requirement, so there is nothing for me to cite. As, of course, I have said an endless number of times, but you ignore in your willful woke ideological blindness.

Nevertheless, someone who claims to be committed to freedom of speech ought not to be censoring opinions based on viewpoint. If he wants TechDirt comments to be an echo chamber of only opinions he likes, that’s his choice. If he wants to censor posts pointing out his hypocrisy, that’s his choice too.

For your own good, however, I would urge that once you have purged your echo chambers of all wrongthink, do not imagine that you have purged the people who think that way from society or from the voting booth or from the opinion venues that you don’t control.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

do not imagine that you have purged the people who think that way from society or from the voting booth or from the opinion venues that you don’t control

So long as one queer person exists in this world, you should heed your own advice. We’re not going to fall over and die because you have a problem with what’s between someone else’s legs/what consenting adults who aren’t you do with what’s between their legs.

Queer people like me will fight to the bitter fucking for the fundamental motherfucking right to exist in this world. How hard can you⁠—will you⁠—fight to stop that for the sake of making life easier for yourself?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

If I were moderating TechDirt, the first thing to go would be the content-free sniping, name-calling, and cursing, as well as the posts by people who think this forum is Wikipedia and say stupid things in square brackets. And yes, that would be both moderation and consistency with the principles of free speech. Fancy that!

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“people who think this forum is Wikipedia and say stupid things in square brackets”

While the famous xkcd meme was inspired by Wikipedia, asking for citations for claims is not something that originated there.

This should be a natural part of any debate – if you claim something, then you should be prepared to back it up if challenged. If you can’t, then the obvious follow up question is – why not? The medium you’re using to communicate allows you direct access to the vast majority of what you could possibly need to assert your claim.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Wondermark, not xkcd, if you’re talking about sealioning: http://wondermark.com/1k62/

The people (or maybe it’s just one person) who do this here do it stupidly. Also, discussion forums are not scholarly papers; not every post needs to come with a bibliography, and if you think a post is wrong, you are always free to cite your own sources to the contrary. Doing so means both that you are not lazy and that you are not trying to make work for someone else whose claims you will refuse to accept anyway.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Wondermark, not xkcd, if you’re talking about sealioning: [link]

We aren’t talking about sealioning. We’re talking about, as you put it, “people who think this forum is Wikipedia and say stupid things in square brackets”. The only thing this could be reasonably interpreted to be referring to is when people say “citation needed” in square brackets, which is, in fact, a reference to the aforementioned xkcd meme, which itself was inspired by the markup used on Wikipedia. Nothing else people are saying more than once here is both in square brackets and related to something on Wikipedia.

Why you would think that PaulT is talking about sealioning, I have no idea.

The people (or maybe it’s just one person) who do this here do it stupidly.

How so?

Also, discussion forums are not scholarly papers; not every post needs to come with a bibliography, […]

Irrelevant. Here, the “citation needed” thing is just saying “I don’t believe you, so provide a source for the claim you made if you want to convince me that your factual claims are accurate.”

[…] and if you think a post is wrong, you are always free to cite your own sources to the contrary.

You could, but that’s not what is expected, nor is it necessary to do so.

Here, we follow the general rule in rational debates that whoever makes the positive claim has the burden of proof, and proof online generally comes in the form of citations. It doesn’t have to be in the form of a full citation like in a bibliography; a link will do, or, in the case of another post on this site, a quote and whoever said it (if necessary) would also work just as well.

We are not required to do your research for you. You made the claim, so prove it.

Doing so means both that you are not lazy and that you are not trying to make work for someone else whose claims you will refuse to accept anyway.

Perhaps, but the inverse is not true. Not doing so doesn’t mean that you are lazy or that you are trying to make work for someone else whose claims you will refuse to accept anyway.

Furthermore, that’s not how we do things here. We as a community follow the rules of rational (if not exactly formal) debate where the claimant has the burden of proof. You may not like it; you may feel that it puts too much burden on you. That doesn’t matter. That is just how things are done here, and it’s not an uncommon or unreasonable expectation to require the person making the claim to provide evidence supporting it even in online, informal discussions.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

“Citation needed” is exactly sealioning; it is an attempt to burden people with whom you disagree with unceasing demands for proof, which proof will be dismissed as soon as it is provided.

Not to mention that most of the idiotic square bracket stuff directed at me is about claims that I’ve said things that I never have. (Which could be searched for, if those same idiots weren’t the ones flagging the posts that would demonstrate the case.)

Plus, I said that this is what I would do if I were moderating. As you helpful folks like to point out, people who run sites get to moderate as they wish.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“Citation needed” is exactly sealioning; it is an attempt to burden people with whom you disagree with unceasing demands for proof, which proof will be dismissed as soon as it is provided.

If your proof comes from a reliably credible source, it’ll be accepted. If it doesn’t, it won’t. Do you resent being asked to do the work of finding credible sources that agree with your transphobia, or do you resent being asked to back up your claims of fact in the first place?

As you helpful folks like to point out, people who run sites get to moderate as they wish.

And yet, part of your schtick is about wanting sites to not have the ability to moderate as they wish. Curious. 🤨

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“Citation needed” is exactly sealioning; it is an attempt to burden people with whom you disagree with unceasing demands for proof, which proof will be dismissed as soon as it is provided.

That’s not what “sealioning” is. Sealioning is pretending to be polite when you’re actually trolling, like in “JAQing off”. Most of the people just posting “citation needed” aren’t even trying to appear polite.

Additionally, people who sealion are disrupting a conversation between people who are in agreement in order to cause disagreement where there was none. In this case, you’re not presenting something that was agreed on by most people here.

Putting the burden of proof on the claimant (where it belongs, btw), particularly on something over which there is already disagreement present in the discussion and which has not been agreed upon by a majority of those previously involved in the discussion, and in a way that, even if not necessarily rude, isn’t feigning politeness either, is not even remotely sealioning. Not all trolling is sealioning.

Plus, I don’t think this is even trolling. You assume without even trying that any evidence presented will be summarily dismissed without viewing it, but that hasn’t been the case previously. In the past, such evidence has been viewed and, if dismissed, it’s only after saying that the evidence comes from an incredibly unreliable source (like Project Veritas) or after pointing out why the evidence doesn’t support the claim being made even if the information in the source is accurate. Other times, if they don’t change their mind, they don’t dismiss the evidence per se but rather concede that it supports the claim but come to a different conclusion, essentially conceding that point but making a different argument. And still other times, they do change their minds. None of that is ignoring the evidence presented. If you present good evidence from a reliable source that supports your point, it won’t be dismissed.

Not to mention that most of the idiotic square bracket stuff directed at me is about claims that I’ve said things that I never have.

Not as far as I can tell. It’s all either “citation needed”, “projects facts not in evidence”, and other things like that, either with nothing else in the comment or with a quote from the part of the post being referenced, which is almost always the previous comment. To the extent it’s “about claims that [you]’ve said things that [you] never have,” it wouldn’t be directed at you or else it would, by necessity, be directed at something you actually said since, again, the only things included would be the bracketed material (which doesn’t explicitly state what is being referenced) and possibly a quote from or clear reference to something in the previous comment, meaning it’s either referring to something you did say or not directed at you to begin with.

(Which could be searched for, if those same idiots weren’t the ones flagging the posts that would demonstrate the case.)

You can still search hidden posts. It’s a little trickier as it requires unhiding those posts manually, but it’s not at all impossible.

I also fail to see how that would be a problem for you. If it’s not something you said, then the burden of proof would be on the one claiming you did say it, so just ask them to prove that you said it. Though, again, usually the bracketed stuff is in reference to the post being replied to in the first place, so I fail to see how it would be difficult to show one way or the other if the referenced claim was actually made.

Plus, I said that this is what I would do if I were moderating. As you helpful folks like to point out, people who run sites get to moderate as they wish.

Yes, but you have previously been against such moderation (though you called it “censorship”), so it does seem odd that this is the sort of moderation you would go for.

For the record, you absolutely do get to moderate that way on a site that you control. No one has said otherwise. It seems kinda dumb, we probably would not moderate the same way, and we might say that we don’t like you moderating that way, but none of us are saying that you can’t or shouldn’t be able to do so. Additionally, our disagreement with such moderation would not be based on free-speech principles (though they would remain consistent with them); rather, they would be based upon other opinions and principles, like how a debate works.

In other words, I don’t know why you would moderate that way based on your previous comments, and I will criticize and/or question your decision, but I won’t assert that you must moderate differently if that’s really what you want to do. It just seems dumb and a turnaround from your previous stance.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Honestly, if anything, one could argue that you were sealioning with regards to trans rights (until Mike started blocking those particular posts), but the ones you’re complaining about definitely weren’t. But that’s not terribly important. The point is that you clearly don’t know what sealioning is.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

It’s like Joe Wilson shouting “You lie!” at President Obama. Comments like that are intended to annoy, not to add to the discussion.

If I were really running an issues site, I would probably have a site database with reference links to various sides of the issues so that the evidence would be there permanently for everyone to read, and people could provide more sources to be added.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Comments like that are intended to annoy, not to add to the discussion.

…much like your comments on this site.

If I were really running an issues site, I would probably have a site database with reference links to various sides of the issues so that the evidence would be there permanently for everyone to read, and people could provide more sources to be added.

And who would you be linking to⁠—Breitbart and InfoWars and Project Veritas, perhaps? Referencing sources with little-to-no credibility is only a small step above referencing nothing at all.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

“Sure, and equally tendentious woke claims too, like the 1619 Project”

“I’d probably crib the rules from Wikipedia, or just make the references all be to Wikipedia and sponge off them”

Honestly, if you’re anywhere near as honest and upfront about any biases then most people would support you. It’s when people shove outright lies and pretend they’re being “fair and balanced ” when people tend to get annoyed. If you’re trolling or trying to rewrite stories to push an agenda, that’s you’re right under free speech, just don’t try telling those of us who recognise the spin that you’re neutral.

You’d use the “Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License” that they freely advertise on their site and allow people to reuse content under? I’m sure they’d be OK with that, so long as you obey the rules provided.

Oh, and the thing with Wikipedia is that intelligent people understand that it’s not a primary source, as with all encyclopaedias it’s a first step. That’s why “citation needed” is a popular meme. It’s a good step, but if you want to make real arguments you need to refer to the primary sources references, and copying those references to a site where you try to spin the citations another way won’t cut it. As the saying goes, reality has a certain bias, and there’s a reason people ask for citations a lot when claims are made – and it’s jot because they thing that a Wikipedia article alone is gospel.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

It’s like Joe Wilson shouting “You lie!” at President Obama. Comments like that are intended to annoy, not to add to the discussion.

  1. That still doesn’t make it sealioning.
  2. While I don’t think Joe Wilson should have said it, I don’t believe his intent was solely to annoy.
  3. Asking a claimant to back up their claims is not intended to annoy. Again, that’s how things work here. When I do it, it’s certainly not my intent to annoy. If you’re annoyed with the idea of having to cite sources for the claims you make, either get over it or just don’t make claims that are too bothersome to cite.

If I were really running an issues site, I would probably have a site database with reference links to various sides of the issues so that the evidence would be there permanently for everyone to read, and people could provide more sources to be added.

Okay, but that’s not what this is to begin with, so that’s neither here nor there.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

Never does someone’s speech on social media prevent others from speaking.

Which wasn’t at all what AC said, you even quoted it: preventing other people from having a reasonable discussion.

And as others have highlighted, allowing all types of “legal” speech on a platform affects marginalized groups the worst. Lets just take Hyman Rosen for example who thinks it’s just fine and dandy to harass trans-people by deadnaming them among other things.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Anonymous Clown Proclaims the Standard Libel

I am proud of my Jewish heritage. I am a scion of the families of 5 major פוסקים‎ — the earliest of whom was ר׳ עוֹבַדְיָה בֵּן אַבְרָהָם מִבַּרְטֵנוּרָא and the least of whom was the קיצור שולחן ערוך.

Here is a summary of my digital personal literary property that a social medium platform, which is an obvious message common carrier, denies common carriage in violation of Massachusetts statutory and judge-made law.

Practically all of my father’s family was murdered during the Holocaust in the Ukraine. A depraved and evil white racial supremacist and antisemite like Anonymous Clown defecates

  1. on the memory of my murdered relatives and
  2. on the memory of all Jews, who were murdered during the Holocaust,

when he tries to use the Holocaust to deflect criticism from the genocide

  1. that vicious bloodthirsty white racial supremacist Zio colonial settlers have perpetrated on the native population of Palestine since Dec 1947 and
  2. that has never ceased.

Because some of my relatives have been prominent leaders among the Zio colonial settlers, I tried to be a liberal religious Zio until I was outside the Mosque of Abraham when Baruch Goldstein celebrated Purim by murdering 29 worshipers. Goldstein showed to me the logical conclusion of the Zio program.

A Zio murders Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide. Every Zio is a vile and atrocious enemy of Palestinians, of Jews, and of the human race.

My wife is a Judean Palestinian,

  1. whose family was subjected to genocide in Ein Karem and
  2. whose family continues to suffer from ongoing genocide, apartheid, and persecution in stolen Palestine.

My mom loves my wife at least an order of magnitude more than my mom hated my two previous ווּזְווּז wives.

My wife is a true Judean אֵשֶׁת חַיִל. No female Zio can be such. A female Zio is a true אשת חרא. A Zio colonial settler in stolen Palestine is a murderous genocidal invader, interloper, thief, and impostor.

According to Constitutional law, a social medium platform, which is without doubt a message common carrier, has no First Amendment right to abridge the freedom of speech of anyone. Only a white racist/elitist ignoramus or dummy like a Tech Dirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform claims otherwise.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

By definition, a common carrier has to serve all comers. If he wrongfully refuses to accept a consignment, he is suable in tort. Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

Gentiles need to read and to hear what a genuine Jew thinks of a Zio colonial settler. The entire human race has an ethical and legal obligation to hate, to scorn, and to loathe every Zio on the planet.

Genocide is a capital crime without statute of limitations both in international law and also in the US federal criminal code. Every Zio must be hunted down:

  1. to be arrested,
  2. to be tried,
  3. almost certainly to be convicted, and
  4. to be sentenced either to a long prison term or to a quick jab in the arm.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Depraved Zio Scum Finds Genocide Committed by Zios to be Funny!

It’s hard to be more vile and disgusting than a depraved and evil Zio.

From Anonymous Genocide-Supporting Clown:

lmao what

Was it funny when my wife’s relatives were raped and murdered by white racial supremacist Zio colonial settlers from Dec 1947 through 1949?

From Dec 1946 through Dec 1947, some of my relatives did the most important logistics planning for the starting phase of the genocide that has never ended.

Unlike either a depraved Zio genocide-supporter or a Tech Dirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform, I am not ethically challenged. I know evil when I see it!

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I Don't Care When a Zio Screeches Nonsense About Antisemitism!

A depraved and evil Zio screeches the usual nonsense.

FYI: If you actually got your way and forced interactive web services to carry all legally protected speech, you’d give anti-Semites the ability to spew all their hatred on social media without consequence.

Yet it’s perfectly okay for a depraved and evil Zio to spew that basest and most outrageous hate-speech about the native people of Palestine!

I used to work in Gaza. Even though I never hid my Jewishness, I had no problem whatsoever. Hamas seemed to appreciate my work in improving telecommunications infrastructure.

I held classes to explain Zio ideology and Judaism mostly for Hamas officials, but everyone was welcome. More than one family wanted me to marry an unmarried daughter. I was everybody’s cousin from America.

Antisemitism is something completely insignificant. Hating a Zio is a duty upon the entire human race.

Until the Zio state is abolished and every Zio is

  • on trial for genocide,
  • sentenced to a long prison term, or
  • scheduled for a jab in the arm,

it is perverted and disgusting to worry about a phenomenon as minor as antisemitism.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Yet it’s perfectly okay for a depraved and evil Zio to spew that basest and most outrageous hate-speech about the native people of Palestine!

And yet, if someone talked shit about Jews, I bet you’d be trying to have them kicked off social media. But if you got your way in re: social media services and common carrier law, no social media service could give someone the boot for talking shit about Jews.

Your crusade would help the very people you decry. Now that’s comedy.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Mr Provoni, I grow tired of being civil to people like you.

Your own fucking words. Saying that the Jews deserved the Holocaust is straight up Holocaust denial. And ignores all the actual fucking history of the Jews from CE 70 onwards. (Spoiler: No one fucking liked the Jews. Even in the Middle Ages.)

And if all of what you say is true, there’s fucking Haaretz, who would be MOST INTERESTED in your fucking story. They have covered topics like that before and are not afraid to do so.

And again, there’s good ol’ Norman fucking Finklestein. Who repeatedly does the same thing you do, with a lot less bile and CORRECTLY calls it apartheid. He’s been cancelled more than once, turned away by at least one publisher, and still manages to not cite from the fucking Protocolls of the Elders of Zion. Perhaps you might want to learn from him.

Very few people would disagree that Israel is doing rather fucked up things to the Palestinians. But guess what? Using slurs and calling them the enemy, Mr Provoni, are what the pro-Israel lobby DOES to its critics.

Do well to learn, Mr Provoni, and don’t sully Phillip K Dick’s legacy with your nonsense.

I’m still waiting on those tweets that finally got you banned on Twitter, though I doubt it’d be different from your conduct here. Yes, it’s technically legal under 1A. No, the only people who would applaud you on your fucking position are the same white supremacists you “decry”.

Get lost.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 It's Obvious Why a Depraved Genocide-Supporting Racist like Anonymous Clown Tried to Protect Discrimination by a Social Medium Platform

I never asserted that Jews deserved the Holocaust. My family did not deserve to be murdered during the Holocaust in the Ukraine.

I asserted correctly that the Zi°nist movement is the proximate cause of the Holocaust, which would not have happened but for the effort of the Zi°nist movement to transform the initial Phoney War phase of World War II into a hot shooting war.

Because Zi°nists are desperate to make sure that the truth of WWII does not enter public discourse, they strive to guarantee continued discrimination by a social medium platform against a knowledgeable and scholarly Jew like me.

World War II should have concluded with a peace treaty in 1940 before the Holocaust started in 1941. Approximately 80 million people would have lived that died during WWII.

Not only a Palestinian like my wife but a Jew like me and the entire human race have a score to settle with every Zi°nist everywhere.

[My Palestinian wife weeps uncontrollably whenever I describe to her what happened to my Ashkenazi Jewish family in Ukraine. I suffer PTSD from the Goldstein Purim massacre. Whenever a Zi°nist colonial settler goes on a murder spree against Palestinians, the 29 murdered worshipers pay me a visit and demand from me that I stop Zi°nist crimes.]

Supporters of the Zi°nist program of replacement genocide believe and disseminate a completely false version of Jewish history in order

  1. to legitimize,
  2. to normalize, and
  3. to justify

replacement genocide of the native population of Palestine with white racial supremacist European colonial settler invaders, interlopers, thieves, and impostors. While a modern Jew like me has no Greco-Roman Judean ancestry whatsoever, a Palestinian like my wife is a descendant of the Greco-Roman Judeans, whom depraved and evil Zi°nist colonial settlers falsely claim to be the ancestors of depraved and evil Zi°nist colonial settlers.

Greco-Roman Judeans and other peoples of Greco-Roman Palestine never left Palestine. When the religious leadership supported the maniac Bar Kochba, who persecuted the Judean peasantry with the approval of Tannaim like Rabbi Akiba, Judaism was almost completely discredited in Judea, and the peasantry (90% of the population) left Judaism for Christianity and then later for Islam.

There was no Roman Exile. The Roman Exile is a metaphor for the transformation of Judaism from the religion of Judea into a religion, which only descendants of non-Judean converts practice.

Rabbinic Judaism is a Mesopotamian religion,

  1. which is completely different from Biblical Judaism,
  2. which has practically no connection to Palestine, and
  3. which is a Domain Specific Religion, which is customized for a community that provided a major if not the predominant transnational commercial financial stratum within Christian and Muslim regions during the pre-modern period.

I know Finkelstein. I funded his speaking engagement at Macalester College because a Palestinian woman, who used to work for me, was a student there.

I was disappointed. I told Finkelstein

  1. that he should learn Fake Invader Hebrew and
  2. that he was much too trusting of historical claims of a Zi°nist colonial settler.
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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

social medium platform, which is an obvious message common carrier

No it’s not. The messages aren’t carried anywhere. They stay on the platform’s servers. ISPs carry the messages between user devices and the platform’s servers. ISPs are common carriers.

very Zio is a vile and atrocious enemy of Palestinians, of Jews, and of the human race.

Really? every single one? That sounds pretty prejudicial.

A Zio colonial settler in stolen Palestine is a murderous genocidal invader, interloper, thief, and impostor.

Even the 2 year olds?

According to Constitutional law, a social medium platform, which is without doubt a message common carrier, has no First Amendment right to abridge the freedom of speech of anyone.

Where does the Constitution talk about common carriers?

Also, I think you’re confusing your arguments. This right here sounds like your state actor argument, not your common carrier argument. Not that it really matters, because social media is neither.

Only a white racist/elitist ignoramus or dummy like a Tech Dirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform claims otherwise.

If someone disagrees with you, they’re automatically a white racist? Real strong position you’ve got there if it can’t stand up to scrutiny.

Gentiles need to read and to hear

No they don’t.

The entire human race has an ethical and legal obligation to hate, to scorn, and to loathe every Zio on the planet.

No it doesn’t.

Every Zio must be hunted down:

to be arrested,
to be tried,
almost certainly to be convicted, and
to be sentenced either to a long prison term or to a quick jab in the arm.

You sound just as bad, if not worse, than your descriptions of the people you oppose. You should really work on that anger. Therapy can help.

This needs to be pulled out from one of your previous comments as well:

It is amusing to a legal professional when a legal nitwit uses a legal phrase with no comprehension of the meaning.

Yes, I have no problem believing the actual legal professionals who read this site are laughing at you.

I’m still waiting for you to stop ducking these questions:

If the Internet is a public forum and private companies are not allowed to abridge speech, why does Section 230, a law that protects private companies that abridge speech, even exist? And why do the authors of Section 230 state (within the last two years, in fact) that it is being used exactly as they intended it to be used?

In what way does a social media site differ from any other site that allows user content, like a message board, such that Twitter is a state actor and the message board site isn’t?

Not that I expect you to answer at this point. You’ll just call me names and keep avoiding. As you might put it, ThorsProvoni has murdered his mind with prejudice and hate.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Their argument is the equivalent of claiming that if you let rabidly anti-anything-other-than-completely-heterosexual people say whatever they want to on a platform, letting them post unchecked about how anyone not straight as an arrow is subhuman, don’t deserve rights and deserve to be purged from society then that’s not in any way going to impact the speech of anyone who might fall into those categories and who might not want to deal with a bunch of harassment and/or threats should they out themselves.

It’s taking the heckler’s veto and enshrining it as law to ensure that only the most toxic and hostile people feel safe to speak freely.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

In a society that has free speech as a foundational value, people are going to be exposed to opinions that they find repugnant, and they are going to state opinions that other people find repugnant.

Fortunately, because the 1st Amendment provides robust protection for sites to arrange their affairs as they like, the large generic platforms are able, should they be willing, to both allow all opinions to appear regardless of viewpoint and to allow groups of users to create walled gardens for themselves where only opinions they like can be seen. It still falls to the large generic speech platforms to agree to do this, rather than censor certain viewpoints for all users. If they do not, they should be harshly criticized until they change their minds.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

it WAS the legal landscape under the Cubby v. Compuserve court decision for several years, and it can work today.

Cubby said that Compuserve was immune from liability for the content of user posts because it did no moderation of any kind: They didn’t know what was being posted, so they weren’t responsible for it.

The implication of this, as Stratton-Oakmont stated more explicitly, is that if you do choose to moderate, you are then liable for every post removed as well as every post left online.

Other countries don’t suffer from this issue because they don’t have the combination of these two decisions that incentivize companies to avoid moderation. That’s why the US has Section 230, which says “you aren’t liable for user content, whether you moderate or not” compared to other countries where the law says “if someone claims it’s illegal (no evidence required) and you don’t remove it, you’re liable.”

The second style leads to a greater restriction on speech than whatever “conservative bias” exists in your hallucinations. Or, do you not care if other speech is chilled as long as “conservative” speech is unrestricted?

But please, do go on. You say the Cubby landscape could work today. How, exactly, do you propose a website allowing user content could function without turning into a cesspool of porn, spam, and hate speech?

Also, if you’ve been “cancelled” as your latest joke of a tagline suggests, how is it that you’re still able to post here?

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Lack of moderation will basically ensure the death of a platform as the toxic users will both drive off and prevent the signing up of anyone who’s not an asshole, leaving just them left, and eventually they’ll wander off themselves since the only people left will be people like them and even they don’t want to hang around with themselves.

Those attempting to prevent moderation aren’t just trying to prevent someone from showing them and their ‘speech’ the door they’re trying to, whether they admit it or not kill the platforms hosting that speech, eliminating the ability for everyone to talk, which makes it beyond rich how often they complain that moderation is somehow anti-free speech.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The notion that not censoring opinions based on viewpoint is the same thing as not moderating at all is a lie that woke ideologues like to promote, because they enjoy the viewpoint-based censorship the large generic speech platforms are currently providing for them.

This is related to the lie that people who want the platforms to stop censoring based on viewpoint want to force them to do that, and want to eliminate their 1st Amendment right to censor as they wish.

What we, or at least I, want is for the platforms to come to their senses and realize that they are violating the principles of free speech, and then voluntarily change their ways, to stop censoring but continue moderating.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

they enjoy the viewpoint-based censorship the large generic speech platforms are currently providing for them

And which viewpoints are those?

people who want the platforms to stop censoring based on viewpoint want to force them to do that

You call that a lie, but look at how hard certain state governments are trying to do exactly that. Do their efforts not count?

What we, or at least I, want is for the platforms to come to their senses and realize that they are violating the principles of free speech, and then voluntarily change their ways, to stop censoring but continue moderating.

How can those services possibly moderate speech if they’re not allowed to “censor”⁠—i.e., how can they punish disruptive little shits if those same shits are legally allowed to post any kind of legally protected speech on those services without facing any consequences?

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

But please, do go on. You say the Cubby landscape could work today. How, exactly, do you propose a website allowing user content could function without turning into a cesspool of porn, spam, and hate speech?

There needs to be a return to the original purpose of section 230: allow moderation based on the elimination of obscenity, but not on politics. Websites would need to post rules against particular actions, such as nudity, repeat messaging, and death threats. Then when a violation occurs, reference the specific reasoning behind the removal, publicly. Currently, most of the social media corporations are adverse to publishing their reasoning, as it would reveal the political bias and expose the corporation to potential liability.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

There needs to be a return to the original purpose of section 230: allow moderation based on the elimination of obscenity, but not on politics.

Koby, you read (or at least “read at”) Techdirt all the time. In what possible world do you imagine that “eliminating obscenity” was the sole original purpose of section 230?

And do provide links to back up your claim.

I’ll wait.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

There needs to be a return to the original purpose of section 230: allow moderation based on the elimination of obscenity, but not on politics.

Did you invent that lie out of thin air or are you so fucking delusional that you really think that was its original purpose even though the authors themselves of the law has explained on numerous occasions that the original intent was to allow services to moderate their sites as they wish?

A person has to be particularly stupid not to understand the simplicity in “Behave! We don’t do that here and we don’t say that here!”, it’s like dealing with truculent 5-year old’s but they have at least a valid excuse.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

There needs to be a return to the original purpose of section 230: allow moderation based on the elimination of obscenity, but not on politics.

Do you really want to know the original purpose of Section 230? Then let’s go to the actual, factual, on-the-Congressional-record words of Republican lawmaker Chris Cox, who helped craft 47 U.S.C. § 230:

We want to encourage people like Prodigy, like CompuServe, like America Online, like the new Microsoft network, to do everything possible for us, the customer, to help us control, at the portals of our computer, at the front door of our house, what comes in and what our children see. …

[O]ur amendment will do two basic things: First, it will protect computer Good Samaritans, online service providers, anyone who provides a front end to the Internet, let us say, who takes steps to screen indecency and offensive material for their customers. It will protect them from taking on liability such as occurred in the Prodigy case in New York that they should not face for helping us and for helping us solve this problem. Second, it will establish as the policy of the United States that we do not wish to have content regulation by the Federal Government of what is on the Internet, that we do not wish to have a Federal Computer Commission with an army of bureaucrats regulating the Internet because frankly the Internet has grown up to be what it is without that kind of help from the Government. In this fashion we can encourage what is right now the most energetic technological revolution that any of us has ever witnessed. We can make it better. We can make sure that it operates more quickly to solve our problem of keeping pornography away from our kids, keeping offensive material away from our kids, and I am very excited about it.

You’ll focus on the “we need to keep offensive content away from our kids part”. I want you to focus on this part:

it will establish as the policy of the United States that we do not wish to have content regulation by the Federal Government of what is on the Internet, that we do not wish to have a Federal Computer Commission with an army of bureaucrats regulating the Internet

230 was written, in part, to make sure the government couldn’t go around telling websites what speech they could and couldn’t post/host. If you want 230 to be revoked in cases of “politics”, you’ll run head-first into that pesky First Amendment. As an example, here’s a fun yes-or-no question for you: Should a queer-friendly U.S.-based Mastodon instance have its 230 protections revoked if that instance refuses to allow speech that promotes an anti-gay political ideology?

most of the social media corporations are adverse to publishing their reasoning, as it would reveal the political bias and expose the corporation to potential liability

Except there is no such liability. The government can’t force Twitter, Facebook, etc. to host speech based on the political leanings of the speaker or their speech. To wit: Donald Trump.

And speaking of Donald Trump, both Twitter and Facebook bent over backwards to please conservative pundits and politicians⁠—up to and including the refusal to ban Trump for multiple TOS violations until after the failed insurrection of 6 January 2021. And if trying to make their services welcoming to queer people and people of color means Twitter and Facebook have an “anti-conservative bias”, maybe you need to think about what that means.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 How So?

“Except there is no such liability. The government can’t force Twitter, Facebook, etc. to host speech based on the political leanings of the speaker or their speech. ”

How so? Political affiliation and “lawful conduct” (which includes political speech) is part of many state and local civil rights and labor laws. It’s never been ruled “Unconstitutional” to my knowledge. Quite the opposite.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

How so?

In much the same way the government can’t force Twitter, Facebook, etc. to host speech based on whether it’s flattering to the government: Those services aren’t public fora and can’t be compelled by law to carry any third party speech they don’t want to host.

Besides, Gab and Parler have the absolute right to boot people from the service for anything deemed “leftist” speech. No one has shown me the law or legal precedent that says they don’t.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Force carriage of speech is antithetical to the protection of political affiliation”

No reasonble person would consider it your affiliation so you can invoke no such right you fucking moron.

No resaonble person ever thought Trumps tweets amounted to Twitters speech or association. Fuck sticks you are a fucking idiot.

With every post Mike’s Misfits prove that they are not reasonable persons by making arguments that the SCOTUS has already ruled no reasonable person would believe.

Are you trying to prove you are fucking stupid and/or insane?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Last I checked, Democrat, Republican and asshole aren’t protected classes.

And white supremacists only gets protected if they’re aiding the FBI in an investigation to flush out and arrest these fine folk, who are otherwise considered criminals and a threat to American security.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

No one is forcing you to “associate” because no reasonable person would consider it your group speech or group assembly.

I understand that in the 21st century technology has let all you village idiots coalesce into a mob that being part of that mob of idiots doesn’t make you any more reasonable. Quite the opposite actually.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

No one is forcing you to “associate”

You and your Nazi pal Thors have either heavily implied or outright said that y’all want to make Twitter associate with you by having the law let y’all force your speech onto that platform. If Twitter doesn’t want to host your speech⁠—to have an association with you, even if nobody else considers your use of Twitter to be an association⁠—for what reason should you be able to force that association onto Twitter?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No reasonable person considers hosting speech association.

And that’s still an irrelevant argument because it doesn’t matter if anyone else consideres it an association. If Twitter doesn’t want to associate with you by hosting your speech, it has the absolute legal right to kick you off Twitter. You haven’t cited a single law or legal precedent that says…

  1. you have a right to use Twitter,
  2. Twitter booting you for your conduct and speech is illegal, and
  3. any public-facing business that boots you for your conduct is breaking the law

…so either start citing some laws or go fuck yourself, Chewtoy.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

“If Twitter doesn’t want to associate with you by hosting your speech, it has the absolute legal right to kick you off Twitter.”

“Show me the part of the Civil Rights Act, or any associated jurisprudence, that says a privately owned open-to-the-public business can’t kick someone out for being a disruptive little shit.”

Moving the goal posts again I see you little stupid piece of shit.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

“If you can’t cite, you must cry foul!”

Go fuck yourself. I dont have to prove a new claim with the added caveat of “for being a disruptive little shit.”

BTW even if there doesn’t exist a law that doesn’t make it a legal right. If a state wanted to protect “disruptive little shits” it could.

You have no right to refuse service at all. The state can force you to serve anyone for any reason.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

The court said the state could force them to serve the couple a cake. They ruled that the baker didn’t have to bake a specific cake because that is artistic expression. Try and keep up you fucking idiot!

I cant be forced to perform at a scientologists wedding however I cannot refuse service to a scientologist at my dance studio.

I dont know why this is such a hard concept for your fucking morons.

Oh year I do. You are fucking morons.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

however I cannot refuse service to a scientologist at my dance studio.

Except if they insist on pushing Scientology to you and other patrons, or attacking young sexual orientation, and then you can deny them service. That is you cannoy deny them service for being a Scientologist, but you can if they use you studios to promote their views or harass you or other patrons.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

The court said the state could force them to serve the couple a cake.

No, it didn’t. In every court save the federal Supreme Court, the ruling said that Masterpiece Cakeshop violated Colorado’s non-discrimination ordinance by refusing to serve a gay customer in the sense that they refused to sell that customer the same kind of cake it would sell a straight customer. The ruling never forced the bakery to make a basic cake for the customer, much less decorate the cake the way that customer wanted.

Azucar Bakery was similarly sued for its refusal to put anti-queer speech on a cake ordered by a Christian customer. That bakery won in court because it did indeed offer to bake the cake for the customer, but refused to decorate the cake with hateful messaging because of a blanket policy on such speech regardless of who it targeted.

The point of anti-discrimination laws is to accomodate everyone being in the public sphere while allowing some space for compromise (e.g., making sure the state can’t compel speech or expression from a business owner). The bakery had to serve that gay customer from the same basic menu with which it serves straight ones. Decorations are a whole other matter.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Just to reword that – they had to serve a gay couple a cake. They didn’t have to serve a cake with explicit BDSM decorations, or whatever the right-wing echo chamber has been taught to fantasise. It’s just that if they would serve a cake to a straight couple, they had to legally serve the same cake to a gay couple. The issue was that they changed their minds after finding out the couple was gay.

I think I get some facts confused between the two cases so forgive me if I’m wrong, but I think we can all work out who’s really on the wrong side of the issue if “don’t refuse business to a protected class” is problematic. Especially since “protected class” also protects the other person (e.g the “class” is sexuality, so it protects a straight guy being refused service as much as it protects a gay guy. The fact that the straight guy is not as likely to be refused service is incidental)

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

they had to serve a gay couple a cake

Technically, they didn’t have to serve a cake to that gay customer. They were perfectly free to refuse service in that regard⁠—so long as they were prepared to pay the fine for that refusal. But at no point whatsoever did any court or any government official make the bakery serve the customer who sued.

Now, if it had come down to decorations, that case might’ve gone differently (and I might’ve sided with the bakery in that regard). But this was about a gay customer trying to buy the same basic-ass wedding cake as a straight customer before decorations came into the picture; in that regard, the bakery was clearly in the wrong for refusing service.

When a business like a bakery offers a menu to the general public, it doesn’t (and shouldn’t) get to decide who makes up the general public. Gay and straight customers should be able to buy the same items from the same menu. But by the same token, the bakery shouldn’t be compelled to produce speech with which it disagrees⁠—which is, again, one of the reasons Azucar Bakery won its case. The line in this regard is clear; anyone who ignores it does so at their own peril.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

“Gay and straight customers should be able to buy the same items from the same menu. But by the same token, the bakery shouldn’t be compelled to produce speech with which it disagrees”

I can’t imagine how small-minded you have to be to even argue here, but I do understand the difference between refusing to sell a basic cake based on sexuality, and refusing to add decorations you disagree with.

I just can’t imagine being opposed enough to the existence of a gay couples for it to matter, and I hope everyone who comes across such bigotry has the ability to take their business elsewhere.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

I can’t imagine how small-minded you have to be to even argue here

I replied the way I did because I bristle at the suggestion that the government compelled the bakery to make a cake for the customer who filed the complaint. That never happened, and suggesting that it happened opens the door for anti-queer rhetoric along the lines of “well what else are they gonna make us do”. I can understand that you didn’t intend to make that argument, and I apologize if I came off a bit heavy-handed and preachy. But I like to clear up that specific misconception when and where I can because of the way people can twist it.

And if I’m misreading the reply to which I’m replying: Well, I can be a dumbass on a level that only the troll brigade can comprehend, so feel free to ignore me. 😁

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Like you the biggest moron on this forum read all 60ish pages of the decision.

“One of the difficulties in this case is that the parties disagree as to the extent of the bakers refusal to provide service. If the baker refused to design a special cake with words or images celebrating marriage-for instance, a cake showing the words with religious meaning-that might be different from a refusal to sell any cake at all.”

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

If the baker refused to design a special cake with words or images celebrating marriage-for instance, a cake showing the words with religious meaning-that might be different from a refusal to sell any cake at all.

“If” does a lot of carrying in that sentence, given that Masterpiece Cakeshop didn’t even get as far as that when it refused service. The whole point of the suit against Masterpiece was that it refused to even sell a wedding cake, regardless of decorations, to a gay customer. SCOTUS never sided with the bakery on the merits of their arguments; the highest court in the land metaphorically kicked the can down the road by ruling that the case was marred by anti-religious sentiments in the original hearings.

Also: Changing the details of the situation would obviously change the context and outcome of the situation. If Masterpiece had sold the cake to the gay customer but refused to decorate it with messaging celebrating a same-sex marriage, I likely would’ve sided with Masterpiece. But it refused to sell the cake outright based on the customer being gay, so the bakery doesn’t get any sympathy from me.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

“The shopping center by choice of its owner is not limited to the personal use of appellants, and the views expressed by members of the public in passing out pamphlets or seeking signatures for a petition thus will not likely be identified with those of the owner.” ~Pruneyard 1980

Posted it plenty of times. You can go fuck yourself you ling piece of shit.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

You contradicted yourself right there. You just said that there is not freedom of association before saying that there is in the next sentence.

Also, the Supreme Court has said that there is a freedom of association that is derived from—but not the same as—freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, so your claim that there is no freedom of association is without merit.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21 Freedom of Association versus Freedom to Exclude

The Supreme Court has long held that the First Amendment’s protection of free speech, assembly, and petition logically extends to include a “freedom of association.” Generally, this means we have the freedom to associate with others who have similar political, religious, or cultural beliefs. This separate freedom grew out of challenges to state laws that burdened the NAACP and was challenged by security investigations of the Communist Party.

The Supreme Court has never held there is a right to exclude — the goal of a discriminatory social medium platform and a depraved white racist that supports unconstitutional discrimination by a social medium platform, which is a message common carrier of digital personal literary property according to ~ 180 years of caselaw that governs carriage of a message, a writing, or voice by electromagnetic transmission.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

The Supreme Court has never held there is a right to exclude

Much like freedom of religion, the freedom of association must inherently include the freedom to refuse association. This principle has exceptions that mostly focus on the idea of public accomodation businesses being made to serve everyone equally. But by and large, that principle allows services like Twitter to refuse an association⁠—even if only Twitter perceives one⁠—with someone who violates the ToS.

You don’t have a legal or moral right to use Twitter. You haven’t offered a single compelling argument that says you do. If you have such an argument that isn’t rooted in bigotry/hatred/fascism, you might want to present it now. Otherwise: Enjoy your masochistic embarassment as you continually have your ass handed back to you!

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

I concur with Stephen on this, but I just want to mention this bit:

a depraved white racist that supports unconstitutional discrimination by a social medium platform

Even if everything else you said about governments being able to regulate social media platforms as common carriers was accurate, or if social media platforms really do engage in racial discrimination, neither of those would be unconstitutional discrimination.

There is no constitutional right to force a common carrier to serve you; that is a statutory right. Similarly, there is no constitutional right to not face racial discrimination from private entities; that is simply a violation of the Civil Rights Act (and possibly other statutes).

You seem to keep mixing up “common carrier”, “provider of public accommodation”, and “state actor”, but these are all completely different. Racial discrimination (along with discrimination based on other protected classes) is prohibited by civil rights statutes for employers (towards employees only) or businesses that provide public accommodation (towards anyone), and all common carriers, necessarily, provide public accommodation and, thus, fall under that exception to freedom of association and freedom of speech. Separately, there is a different exception to those rights for common carriers that essentially allows governments to force them to serve anyone (with some exceptions) by statute or regulation. Finally, the “due process” clause of the Fourteenth Amendment prohibits state actors from engaging in discrimination based on race, religion, or sex, among other things. Generally, of these, social media platforms only—at most—fall under “public accommodation”.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23 I Was an Internal AT&T Expert on Common Carriage and Technology Since the Late 70s.

All my assertions have been vetted by some of the top experts in this area. When my petition for cert has been further refined, I will make it available on the Internet.

Place of Public Accommodation, Public Forum, and State Action (Proxying)

The concepts of public accommodation and public forum are related while the issue of state action often relates to a public forum even if a public forum does not play a role in Burton v. Wilmington Pkg. Auth, 365 U.S. 715, 81 S. Ct. 856 (1961). A lot of time would probably not have been wasted on litigation if State Action Doctrine had been named State Proxy Doctrine or State Proxying Doctrine.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27 Please Don't Shut up!

I often have difficulty with understanding the POV of a depraved white racist microbrain.

And yet, here you are, worrying about what (you think) I want so much that you have to insult me as if you think that will ever shut me up.

A depraved white racial supremacist TechDirt dummy, who supports racial discrimination by a social medium platform, helps me sharpen my legal arguments by showing me in detail his twisted and perverted logic.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24 How the Internet is a Place of Public Accommodation

The social medium platform-related caselaw, which denies a social medium platform is a place of public accommodation, is confused and consists of a plethora of cartoon litigation.

The Memorandum Opinion of the Noah[1] Court was correct in denying that the virtual forum[2] (chat room) was a place in the sense of the CRA. Plaintiff Noah’s error in presenting his case was metaphorically equivalent to confusing a movie (not a place) with the movie theater (a place), where the movie is exhibited. If Plaintiff Noah had focused on AOL’s temporarily assembled place of public accommodation[3] for exhibition and for entertainment, he might have had a good argument that AOL was violating § 2000a by allowing other users to create an environment hostile to Muslims, who constitute a protected class under § 2000a.

Lewis v. Google LLC, No. 20-16073 (9th Cir. Apr. 15, 2021) is vicariously embarrassing to read and only has the virtue of non-precedential status. In this decision, the audience is confused with the movie theater.[4]

The Internet is a state-supported establishment that has a definite identifiable structure that can be mapped to locations all over the planet. The Internet has premises that have buildings with grounds or appurtenances throughout the United States of America. The premises of the Internet may temporarily include premises of a user, whose device connects to the Internet. Since the 1950s the Internet, which has evolved from the ARPANET, was intended to become a place of accommodation for resource sharing. Now it is public. The US government has established and supports[5] the Internet as a place of public accommodation within the definition that 42 U.S. Code § 2000a provides. The operative phrase in the statute is “Establishments affecting interstate commerce or supported in their activities by State action as places of public accommodation.” Such a phrase is a simile.[6] A state-supported establishment need only be (functionally) like a place. For example, § 2000a desegregated a state-established state-supported public drinking fountain even though it does not fit into the example list that § 2000a contains.

Because every social medium platform is and functions within the Internet, every social medium platform comes under 42 U.S. Code § 2000a(b)(4):

any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.

A social medium platform may not discriminate against the groups, which § 2000a specifies, and Facebook (Meta) has already made a legal admission of such discrimination.[7]

Notes

[1] Noah v. AOL Time Warner Inc., 261 F. Supp. 2d 532 (E.D. Va. 2003).
[2] The virtual forum (virtual conference room or virtual meeting room) interaction abstraction is an elementary instance of a virtual reality.
[3] Plaintiff Noah entered the temporarily assembled “movie theater” by means of his program-executing device.
[4] A Court, which considers Clegg v. Cult Awareness Network, 18 F.3d 752 (9th Cir. 1994), to be relevant to a § 230 litigation can only believe (in the most generous possible inference) that the Internet operates by magic.
[5] Here is an example of US government support: “Internet for All” at https://www.internetforall.gov/.
[6] See Richards v. United States, 369 US 1, 9 (1962), quoted in Welsh v. Boy Scouts of America, 993 F.2d 1267 (7th Cir. 1993) at 1269 (“[W]e must always be cognizant of the fact that ‘the legislative purpose is expressed by the ordinary meaning of the words used.'”).
[7] Human Rights Due Diligence of Meta’s Impacts in Israel and Palestine, https://www.bsr.org/en/our-insights/report-view/meta-human-rights-israel-palestine.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

That only applies to discrimination based on very specific, immutable characteristics: religion, religious beliefs (with some exceptions), religious practices (with numerous exceptions), sex, gender, gender identity, assigned sex, sexual orientation, skin color, race, ethnicity, nationality, age (with numerous exceptions), height/weight (again with numerous exceptions), or disability (or other medical conditions, with some exceptions). It doesn’t apply to discrimination due to one’s political affiliation, speech, or viewpoint.

Moreover, that is an exception to the general principle, not the rule, just like how the government can’t penalize someone for their speech is still the general rule even though there is an exception to this rule for, say, defamation.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

And yet, the ones listed that aren’t immutable characteristics have been used to justify discrimination of the worst kind. The law prevents discrimination based on religion, for example, because a Jew being discrminated against for not being a Christian can force that Jew to practice a religion they don’t want to practice only so they can, say, shop in a grocery store or rent a hotel room. Your inability to grasp that idea is your problem; you have to fix it yourself.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

It has that authority, but the question is whether it should⁠—and to what degree. That once again raises the idea of what kinds of speech are considered “political” and, to that end, what kinds of speech are associated with what kinds of politics. Which is why I always have this copypasta on hand:

Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views
Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes?
Con: LOL no…no not those views
Me: So…deregulation?
Con: Haha no not those views either
Me: Which views, exactly?
Con: Oh, you know the ones

(All credit to Twitter user @ndrew_lawrence.)

Therein lies the rub: If Twitter bans homophobic speech and more conservatives/right-wingers than liberals/left-wingers get dinged by that rule, would homophobic speech be considered “conservative speech” for the purposes of regulating what political speech can and can’t be posted on Twitter?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Religion, religious beliefs, and religious practices are arguably the only ones that aren’t immutable in the sense I mean, in that they are personal choices to a decent extent; they are also full of exceptions. Height/weight can be immutable because, to some extent, they are heavily influenced by uncontrollable factors. Sure, diet and exercise can control weight for most, though to what degree varies from person to person. Some people can’t not be overweight regardless of diet and exercise. And, again, there are many exceptions in this regard.

Note how, the more mutable the characteristic is, the less corresponding protection for the given class is given.

Gender identity and nationality, though, are completely immutable.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Same jerk here.

Yes, I helped moderate a smal IRC community. We had 3 simple rules, and would clarify if asked.

We also banned people and explained to them WHY they were banned. If softer attempts to get the user to amend their behavior didn’t work. Zero threats. Clear explanation. And a basic appeal system for bans that the user felt unfair.

You’d fall under the disruptive sort that would challenge the ban, despite being caught red-handed by EVERYONE breaking the rules.

This is not a threat. This is a sober explanation based in REALITY. And yes, we allowed political topics for discussion, but kept very close watch because of how disruptive those topics can become.q

What you want would be to force us to create a separate channel and not moderate that and we all knew how that will go.

/pol/ exists, and all of 4chan hates the fucking board.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When when a violation occurs, reference the specific reasoning behind the removal, publicly. Currently, most of the social media corporations are adverse to publishing their reasoning, as it would reveal the political bias and expose the corporation to potential liability.

Or they are adverse to publishing their reasoning because the trolls, who will never participate from a genuine, sincere interest in building community or maintaining civility, will try to game the rules and skirt moderation by claiming, “I’m not touching you, I’m not touching you,” like a little brother sticking their finger an inch from your face.

You’re pretending like the scorpion in the scorpion and the frog is a myth and there’s no such thing as a scorpion.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“There needs to be a return to the original purpose of section 230: allow moderation based on the elimination of obscenity, but not on politics”

Tell me you don’t know the purpose of section 230 while telling me you don’t know the purpose of section 230.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Ambiguity is only “illegal” when the law implicates regulation by the government of speech or allowing lawsuits based on speech. Well, that and criminal laws. §230 does none of that; it is instead a law that prohibits liability for others’ speech or for moderation of others’ speech. Even if you think that infringes on some natural right to free speech, that doesn’t infringe on the legal right to free speech, nor is it imposing any penalties on anyone, so ambiguity is still fine. Furthermore, ambiguity doesn’t necessarily render such a law unconstitutional, anyways; the courts can decide which of the possible interpretations is the “correct” one.

Also, §230 is not ambiguous. It’s very broad, but that is not at all the same thing as being ambiguous (or vague for that matter). It is very clear that it is intended to allow sites to moderate (or not moderate) content they subjectively believe to be objectionable, including but not limited to things they subjectively believe to be obscene, without risking liability for the decision to (or not to) moderate, for content they moderated, or for content they missed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

But please, do go on. You say the Cubby landscape could work today. How, exactly, do you propose a website allowing user content could function without turning into a cesspool of porn, spam, and hate speech?

4chan is not a workable option, and I speak from experience as a user.

Community moderation doesn’t work when a section of the community refuses to play along.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Not completely wrong, but there was some minor attempts at moderation, ie, the removal of material that would get the FBI’s attention.

Even though 4chan as a whole despites the sexual exploitation of children, it doesn’t stop people from abusing /b/. And nok, I don’t need to take the challenge of viewing /b/ for an hour, I HAVE been there on my own volition. Repeatedly. Back during the Habbo Raid Days. No, I did not participate in those raids.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Officially, there were janitors, and people were supposed to report dodgy posts.

Problem is, while this sort of worked for most of the boards, there was one execption: /b/.

/b/ isn’t moderated in the traditional sense. It is literally dependent on the community to police itself without even the janitors stepping in, because NOTHING is ever deleted on /b/. (The board moves too fast to be properly moderated on a good day.) At least, anything that isn’t explictly illegal unter Title 18/State Criminal Codes. And by community policing, I mean the community literally shouts at itself.

It wasn’t great, and yes, some degenerate assholes did post actual child pornography there. And that’s how the then owner moot got visited by the FBI.

Hell, even outside of /b/, moderation was spotty at best when it did happen, and was even MORE biased than Twitter’s or Youtube’s moderation. It’s a miracle that the topic boards stayed as functional as it was.

Then /pol/ got invaded by Stormfront.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

How well moderation “works” is subjective. Some users ditched 4chan to set up 8chan/kun because they moderated for basic legality and decency, other people avoid it because they don’t moderate enough (of course that also depends on which boards you use).

4chan’s moderation might be enough for some people, but it’s definitely not enough for a mainstream platform.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Brave Sir Koby ran away.
Bravely ran away away.
When danger reared its ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
Yes, brave Sir Koby turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
Swiftly taking to his feet,
He beat a very brave retreat.
Bravest of the brave, Sir Koby!

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discussitlive (profile) says:

Re: Unworkable?

When you come and tag my garage door and I scrub it off it doesn’t prevent you from tagging your own garage door provided you have one.

To extend that metaphor to the Internet, a virtual server costs about USD $3 a month, and you can get a domain name for around USD $20 a year.

Pony up, tag your own server. Or grab a cardboard box, rip it up, and burn a stick to write with.

Once again, will feeling! We aren’t saying you can’t say that, we’re saying you can’t say that here.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Just because you want to have your opinions appear unopposed does not mean that the generic speech platforms are the places for that to happen. If you want that, then *you* go rent your own private soapbox and rant away. The generic speech platforms should be places where all opinions and discussions can be aired, not your own little woke echo chamber. And if they insist on not doing that, then they should be criticized to get them to change their rates. And if they don’t, politicians will try to force them, likely in stupid and destructive ways.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The generic speech platforms should be places where all opinions and discussions can be aired

Yes or no to each of the following: Should Twitter be forced to host speech that is…

  • racist?
  • sexist?
  • homophobic?
  • transphobic?
  • ableist?
  • pro-anorexia?
  • pro-fascism?
  • pro-terrorism?

(Please keep in mind that in each instance, I refer only to speech that is legally protected under the First Amendment.)

If “yes” to any (or all) of those examples: For what reason should Twitter be forced to do that while Gab is allowed to retain its freedom to moderate?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Ideally, Twitter should not be forced to do anything. They should voluntarily stop censoring opinions based on their viewpoints.

But then, yes, they should allow all of those categories you listed, most especially because whether an opinion falls into those categories should not be decided by people who disagree with the opinion.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Your arguments on that matter rest on the idea that platforms should host all legal content. The only way you’ll ever see Twitter, Facebook, etc. host racial slurs, anti-queer propaganda, pro-anorexia content, and other offensive-yet-legal speech is by forcing them to host that speech. After all, you can’t voluntarily convince Twitter’s owners and investors that their best financial interests lie in letting Twitter become another 4chan. You seem to forget in all your bluster about free speech and such that Twitter is still a business⁠—and that the “Worst People” Problem has never been good for business.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Twitter, Facebook, etc. "host" all sorts of racial slurs!

Twitter and Facebook discarded my wife’s content and permanently suspended her when she sought common carriage for her digital personal literary property, which stated she hated Zi0nist colonial settlers

  1. because vicious bloodthirsty racial supremacist Zi0nist colonial settlers raped and murdered her relatives from Dec 1947 through 1949 in an atrocious act of genocide;
  2. because the genocide does not end until her family and all other Palestinians can return to their homes, property, and villages; and
  3. because vicious bloodthirsty racial supremacist Zi0nist colonial settlers continue to perpetrate murderous genocidal acts, apartheid, and persecution against her family and all other Palestinians in stolen Palestinians.

These two racist social medium platforms called my wife’s digital personal literary property anti-semitic hate speech.

My wife understated the depravity and evil of a racial supremacist Zi0nist and of his criminality.

How do I know?

  1. My family has provided leaders of the Zi0nist movement since the 2nd Aliyah.
  2. From Dec 1946 through Dec 1947 relatives plotted the logistics of the genocide of Palestinians.
  3. In stolen Palestine my relatives remain leaders of the Zi0nist movement and continue to plot or to perpetrate the genocide of Palestinians.
  4. My hyper-wealthy Zi0nist relatives, who live in Florida, work to subvert the US government so that the US government continues in violation of US criminal law to support the ongoing genocide that Zi0nists direct at Palestinians.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 A Zionist May Make Any Sort of Racial Slur Against a Palestinian, Arab, or Muslim on a Social Medium Platform

My wife is non-white, Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim.

I can personally attest that the is not antisemitic. Not only does she like Jewish rituals more than I do, but she demands that I provide her with bagels, cream cheese, and lox on Sunday mornings and when she has PMS. Omega-3 fatty acids seem to ease the symptoms.

Facebook has even made a legal admission that it discriminates against Palestinians.

Facebook Report Concludes Company Censorship Violated Palestinian Human Rights

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Depraved White Racist User-Loser Genocide-Supporter Stephen T. White Has Never Read the US Constitution!

Yet the depraved shit-for-brains racist Stephen T. White babbles incoherently about the Constitution to justify and to legitimize a social medium platform’s violations of common carriage law.

The depraved white racist user-loser genocide-supporter Stephen T. White mangles US Constitutional law.

Hosting has no legal meaning. While a social medium platform transports my wife’s digital personal literary property by common carriage, it temporarily keeps my wife’s property in storage on a backend database server.

Bailment or hosting of digital personal literary property is not the speech of the social medium platform, and the social medium platform has neither editorial discretion nor distributor discretion with respect to bailment (hosting) except to a user-loser, who like Stephen T. Stone does not understand full-stack software engineering at the level of a PHOSITA (Person Having Ordinary Skill In The Art).

If a social medium platform wishes to escape the obligations that common carriage law imposes on the social medium platform, the social medium platform need only

  1. cease to monetize eyes on a page and
  2. cease trading in the information that it collects from a user in exchange for message common carriage service.[1]

In other words, as long as a social medium platform makes money from common carriage, it is legally and Constitutionally obligated to obey the law of common carriage.

The Ninth Amendment gives the public the Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage. A common carrier has no right to refuse common carriage to a customer except in special circumstances.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

By definition, a common carrier has to serve all comers. If he wrongfully refuses to accept a consignment, he is suable in tort. See Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

Denial of common carriage is a self-evidencing violation and deserves draconian penalties because common carriage law is the root and beginning of anti-discrimination law, without which modern civil society does not function.

Note

  1. The digital personal literary property or intellectual property, of which a social medium platform is bailee and which the social medium platform distributes by message common carriage to other users, serves in barter for service. Bailment of digital personal literary property is valuable to the social medium platform because the social medium platform uses this intellectual property to attract more eyes to the website of the social medium platform.
bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

As I’ve already explained, that ruling was specifically limited to wireless broadcasts over spectrum due solely to the limitations of that technology that meant a finite, non-expanding resource had to be distributed by a central authority to those who wished to use it in order to avoid crosstalk. A later Supreme Court decision—the one that voided all of the CDA except §230–explicitly says that this exception doesn’t apply to the internet as a whole or to online websites.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Depraved White Racist Genocide-Supporter Stephen T. Stone Prevaricates

The depraved white racist user-loser genocide-supporter Stephen T. White mangles US Constitutional law.

Hosting has no legal meaning. While a social medium platform transports my wife’s digital personal literary property by common carriage, it temporarily keeps my wife’s property in storage on a backend database server.

Bailment or hosting of digital personal literary property is not the speech of the social medium platform, and the social medium platform has neither editorial discretion nor distributor discretion with respect to bailment (hosting) except to a user-loser, who like Stephen T. Stone does not understand full-stack software engineering at the level of a PHOSITA (Person Having Ordinary Skill In The Art).

If a social medium platform wishes to escape the obligations that common carriage law imposes on the social medium platform, the social medium platform need only

  1. cease to monetize eyes on a page and
  2. cease trading in the information that it collects from a user in exchange for message common carriage service.[1]

In other words, as long as a social medium platform makes money from common carriage, it is legally and Constitutionally obligated to obey the law of common carriage.

The Ninth Amendment gives the public the Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage. A common carrier has no right to refuse common carriage to a customer except in special circumstances.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

By definition, a common carrier has to serve all comers. If he wrongfully refuses to accept a consignment, he is suable in tort. See Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

Denial of common carriage is a self-evidencing violation and deserves draconian penalties because common carriage law is the root and beginning of anti-discrimination law, without which modern civil society does not function.

Note

  1. The digital personal literary property or intellectual property, of which a social medium platform is bailee and which the social medium platform distributes by message common carriage to other users, serves in barter for service. Bailment of digital personal literary property is valuable to the social medium platform because the social medium platform uses this intellectual property to attract more eyes to the website of the social medium platform.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Not at all, not even a little. I believe that the large generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint, and if they do, they should be criticized in order to get them to voluntarily change their minds. This is not the same as insisting that they host all legal content; that is a lie that woke ideologues tell because they enjoy the censorship the platforms are currently providing, and don’t want to see opinions that contradict their beliefs, no matter how they are stated.

Financial interest is not the only criterion for running a company. As members of society, they should also be expected to uphold the foundational beliefs of their society, being good citizens in various ways, such as not polluting, treating their workers well, and not censoring opinions based on viewpoint.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

This is not the same as insisting that they host all legal content

But what happens when they don’t listen to your insistent request that they voluntarily turn themselves into 4chan?

They won’t listen. They won’t respect your request. If you want what you want badly enough, you will eventually compromise your principles and your ethics to get it. (You already share an ideological bed, for example, with exterminationist TERFs whose desire to eradicate trans people from society has led them to threat hospitals for children with bombings.) At some point, you’ll have to ask yourself whether your desire to turn Twitter into a cesspool of spam, bigotry, and general chaos is less about “protecting free speech” and more about helping your ideological allies silence marginalized people through harassment and bullying. I won’t have an answer for you when you do⁠—that’s your problem to figure out.

they enjoy the censorship the platforms are currently providing, and don’t want to see opinions that contradict their beliefs

For what reason (other than “they’re bigger”) do you always make this complaint about Twitter and Facebook but never about Gab, Parler, and Truth Social?

As members of society, they should also be expected to uphold the foundational beliefs of their society

By banning speech they don’t want to host for the sake of allowing more people the right to speak without being chased off the platform by bullies and bigots, Twitter and Facebook are absolutely holding up the foundational ideals of freedom of speech, equality, and (as our Revolutionary War–fighting forefathers might put it these days) “fuck around and find out”. Is a white person’s absolute legal right to say the N-word more important than a Black person’s ability to use Twitter without having to have that word shoved into their mentions by racist shitheads?

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

“For what reason (other than “they’re bigger”) do you always make this complaint about Twitter and Facebook but never about Gab, Parler, and Truth Social?”

It’s always about audience size. The problem has never been that they can’t speak, it’s that they can’t force others to listen.

I suspect that the reason this has become more of a problem now than it was in the physical world (where it’s always been the case) is that they got a taste of a real audience. But, rules apply to make the platforms comfortable to everyone, and somehow they keep getting banned and relegated to smaller platforms with less grifting opportunities. They had a taste of music arena numbers, now they’re playing the local bar scene. That must be annoying, but no band has an automatic right to arenas.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yes, you can go get a fucking website to spew your anti-transgender bile.

You are still not allowed to use a private company’s public space to spew your bile. You can’t say those things in the San Diego Zoo (a private space made public), in a publicly-available video game (you’d get banned from the chat room, at least), right next to a privately-leased subway station shop, in a fucking bar, in a shopping center as long as you don’t have express, preferably written and documented PERMISSION from the ahopping center’s owners, on someone else’s website, in an IRC server that’s not owned by a government entity, and most importantly, ON A SOCIAL MEDIA WEBSITE OF YOUR CHOOSING.

You already hate 1A, and property rights, I’m not surprised you want Zoos to host your fucking bile.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

If the state says BigTech cant engage in viewpoint discrimination then that is the fucking law, not a right.

But if the law says Twitter “can’t engage in viewpoint discrimination”, you gain the right to use Twitter by way of being free from punishment for posting speech that Twitter doesn’t want to host. After all, if it punishes you for saying a racial slur, that would be “viewpoint discrimination”, which (in this hypothetical) would be against the law.

You need better arguments, Chilly Willy.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“You need better arguments”

His argument appears to be that the government should be able to seize private property and control how they use it and how they speak.

If he thinks he’s not a communist, he really needs to think about what he’s saying. Although, so many of these people get their ideas from RT/Pravda/whatever they’re laundered through that he might not even know himself.

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christenson says:

Re: Viewpoint discrimination at techdirt

Kobe:
First, notice that Techdirt only knows you and me by our e-mail address, and only when we comment, so subscription isn’t exactly how the site works.

Second, Techdirt most definitely does engage in viewpoint discrimination, but it’s invisible to you and actually helps you. I’m not talking about where a certain number of “flag” votes hide your comments — I’m talking about the complete removal of “spam”, where the viewpoint discriminated against is one where I have a financial proposition of some kind for readers of Techdirt. That stuff isn’t illegal, by the way.

Without that spam removal, and that loose requirement that the commentary relate to the post, there would be basically no one bothering to read any of the comments on Techdirt, including yours.

That flagging mechanism also helps you, too, as partially hiding unpopular comments (even if they are yours) helps grow Techdirt’s audience, and therefore also your own audience.

Me, I’m still hoping for some enlightenment from Techdirt on roughly how much incoming spam people try to post in the comments here but we never see it, along with how many errors of each type the automated filters make. So as not to assist those gaming the system, I’ll stipulate to “the rules” being “don’t be an ass”.

P.S. Greg Abbott is a little piss baby and never considered “lies, damned lies, and audience metrics”, so “site users” is ill defined, especially when I have multiple computers and phones

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Koby (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Second, Techdirt most definitely does engage in viewpoint discrimination… I’m talking about the complete removal of “spam”, where the viewpoint discriminated against is one where I have a financial proposition of some kind for readers of Techdirt.

Commercial solicitation is generally not considered to be a viewpoint. I suppose you could try to make it one, perhaps by permitting solicitations for donations from one political party but not the other. But generally, simply make it an objective policy and not a viewpoint. Problem solved, and removing commercial solicitations is okay under the Texas law.

christenson says:

Re: Viewpoint discrimination at techdirt

Kobe:
First, notice that Techdirt only knows you and me by our e-mail address, and only when we comment, so subscription isn’t exactly how the site works.

Second, Techdirt most definitely does engage in viewpoint discrimination, but it’s invisible to you and actually helps you. I’m not talking about where a certain number of “flag” votes hide your comments — I’m talking about the complete removal of “spam”, where the viewpoint discriminated against is one where I have a financial proposition of some kind for readers of Techdirt. That stuff isn’t illegal, by the way.

Without that spam removal, and that loose requirement that the commentary relate to the post, there would be basically no one bothering to read any of the comments on Techdirt, including yours.

That flagging mechanism also helps you, too, as partially hiding unpopular comments (even if they are yours) helps grow Techdirt’s audience, and therefore also your own audience.

Me, I’m still hoping for some enlightenment from Techdirt on roughly how much incoming spam people try to post in the comments here but we never see it, along with how many errors of each type the automated filters make. So as not to assist those gaming the system, I’ll stipulate to “the rules” being “don’t be an ass”.

P.S. Greg Abbott is a little piss baby and never considered “lies, damned lies, and audience metrics”, so “site users” is ill defined, especially when I have multiple computers and phones, the site can be cached, and if I don’t post a comment, access is indistinguishable from a robot!

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“It’s only “unworkable” to people who want to shut down speech”

All of the Nazis you support are still able to speak. They just can’t speak using the private property of people who don’t want Nazis using it.

“Techdirt’s resident cancel culture victim”

Which is weird, since if you’d really been cancelled we wouldn’t be reading your impotent victim complex whining on every article.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

You thought that the large generic speech platforms could engage in viewpoint-based censorship just because the 1st Amendment allows it. But, as you delight in saying when people you hate are silenced, actions have consequences. This law may be stupid, but the motivations behind it are that people have had enough of being told what they’re allowed to say and having their statements deleted when they disagree.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Anonymous Clown Continues to Exhibit Ramblings of a Depraved White Racist/Elitist Dummy

I don’t like Donald. My uncle Nat used to work with Fred Trump. He considered Fred a psychopath. I guess it takes one to know one.

Fred told Nat that Donald had two skills: whoring and losing lots of money.

Donald has lots of Daddy issues. These issues drive Donald. It is sad in a way that Fred did not live to see Donald become president. Of course, it is also said that Donald became president. I don’t care about Donald’s politics, but Donald is temperamentally unfit for the presidency.

Twitter is not a platform for speech, and only a clueless nitwit calls Twitter such.

Twitter holds out to the public message common carriage under uniform terms at a reasonable fee.

Donald has a right to message common carriage of personal digital literary property under the Ninth Amendment. Twitter has no right whatsoever to refuse message common carriage to Donald.

It is un-American and unconstitutional to assert that Twitter has such a right.

The ignorance and stupidity of Anonymous Clown could fill Rose Bowl.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Twitter holds out to the public message common carriage

The message functions offered by Twitter’s website are also provided by any website running Simple Machines Forum.

Are they all common carriers? If you think so, you’d be wrong but at least you’d be consistent. If you don’t think so, what’s the difference?

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“when the premier generic speech platform bans a former president of the United States from speaking”

They didn’t do that. They told him that he had to stick with the official accounts for government business, and if he wanted to shout abuse from his personal account, then that account would be subject to the same T&Cs as any other private account. Which, after giving him way more chances than they extended to any other citizen, they decided to enforce.

“maybe a third of the nation still adores him, there are going to be adverse consequences”

If the consequences are that anyone dumb enough to vote for Trump takes their business elsewhere, then that’s fine. Free market at work, etc. The problem comes when the morons try to pretend that the platform should have to host the guy against their will because being popular magically makes it public property with a reduction in private property rights.

“I wouldn’t force the platforms to do anything”

Yet, you just implied they should have been forced to host Trump against their will even if they were losing business because of him.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It is a violation of the principles of free speech to censor opinions based on their viewpoints. If a company chooses to do that because it believes that censorship will make it more profitable, it is acting immorally and should be severely criticized for it, in the same way that a company who decides to pollute, or keep worker washes low.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So, when social media becomes state censors or accept government aid to allow certain types of speech through, like how Facebook accepted Koch money to allow the posting and spread of COVID DISINFORMATION, WHITE SUPREMACY and TERRORISM PROMOTION.

Meanwhile Big Oil HAS quashed info regarding global warming for decades and continues to fund global warming disinfo. Wage suppression I can’t exactly pinpoint to an actual source, but no one’s being pebalized for trying to suppress them. Instead, it’s harder to actually RAISE minimum wage in the US and people actually get HARASSED for suggesting it.

Stop lying.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

If you say that I am lying, do you mean that companies should not be criticized for polluting or depressing wages? Certainly such criticism exists and is widespread, especially on liberal sites.

You seem to be criticizing companies for attempting to silence speech, yet you are in favor of the generic speech platforms censoring based on viewpoint when the silenced opinions are those you hate? Not surprising. Woke ideologues hate free speech, unless it is their own.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

He’s correct, but he missed out the “on the platform that they own” part.

Which is weird, because now that Trump has his own platform you’d have thought they’d be eager to get others to abandon Twitter and move to “Truth”, where the orange one is able to speak very clearly. Well, as clearly as that guy is able to speak, which is not evident much of the time.

Here we see the real problem. They don’t want the ability to speak, they want an audience, and they’re still pissed that mainstream platforms attract way more people than platforms that cater to them.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

They don’t want the ability to speak, they want an audience

And beyond that, what they want is confrontation. They want to “own the libs” with “facts and logic”, and they can’t do that if they’re relegated to platforms that “the libs” don’t give a shit about joining.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I mean, that’s what a lot of online communities do once they’ve established their own micro-culture: They poke fun at one another and joke around with like-minded memes.

To quote a tweet: “internet friendship is just politely interacting until one of you breaks and begins the cycle of wordlessly sending each other absolutely unhinged content until you die”

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The real problem is that generic speech platforms should not be censoring opinions based on viewpoint. The fact that Truth Social and similar platforms are biased and also censor to maintain an echo chamber is the reason why the large generic platforms should not be doing that. They should be the places where people can hold free and wide-ranging discussions, not be echo chambers themselves.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The fucking Internet already does not censor your vile opinions. Twitter el al are the PRIVATE SHOPS in the big public square tjat is the Internet.

And if we continue to keep you on the larger platforms, you’d only continue to foul up the water.

You are not posting in good faith, and your entire behavior on this topic has been one of disinformation, bad faith arguments and pushing of an odious agenda.

You’re also clearly against 1A and property rights.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Anonymous Clown Makes My Argument

Anonymous Clown is so dumb that he can’t keep his argument straight.

The fucking Internet already does not censor your vile opinions. Twitter el al are the PRIVATE SHOPS in the big public square tjat is the Internet.

While a private entity can host an open forum for discussion in its private space and abridge the speech of visitors to its forum, a private entity cannot host an open forum for discussion within the public square (the state-supported and state-designated public forum) of the Internet and abridge the freedom of speech of visitors without committing an action

  1. that is inextricably intertwined with the state and
  2. that thus violates the First Amendment Rights of the visitors.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Government Policy Usually Appears in a Policy Statement and Not in a Statute!

DARPA frequently stated that the Internet was created for academic research and communications. Sometimes a Court explicitly or implicitly refers to such statements, e.,g. Loving v. Boren, 956 F. Supp. 953 (W.D. Okla. 1997).

For decades the US government has been declaring “Internet for All” and funding endhosts, broadband, ISPs, IAPs, NSPs, and public networks (state university, public schools, and community networks). The largest part of the Internet is state-owned or state-supported.

Yet we don’t have to depend merely on such government statements and such government actions. We can refer to to the declaratory prologue of a US statute like 47 U.S. Code § 230, to which TechDirt’s white racist/elitist dummies refer but have never read and can’t understand.

47 U.S. Code § 230

(a) Findings The Congress finds the following:
(1) The rapidly developing array of Internet and other interactive computer services available to individual Americans [members of the public] represent an extraordinary advance in the availability of educational and informational resources [creates a public forum] to our citizens [the public].
(2) These services offer users a great degree of control over the information that they receive, as well as the potential for even greater control in the future as technology develops.
(3) The Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps] offer a forum for a true diversity of political discourse, unique opportunities for cultural development, and myriad avenues for intellectual activity. [Statement of Public Forum]
(4) The Internet and other interactive computer services have flourished, to the benefit of all Americans [the Public], with a minimum of government regulation.
(5) Increasingly Americans are relying on interactive media for a variety of political, educational, cultural, and entertainment services.

(b) Policy
It is the policy of the United States—
(1) to promote the continued development of the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps] and other interactive media;
(2) to preserve the vibrant and competitive free market that presently exists for the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps], unfettered by Federal or State regulation;
(3) to encourage the development of technologies which maximize user control [not control by private hi-tech mega corporations] over what information is received by individuals, families, and schools who use the Internet and other interactive computer services [Internet On-Ramps];
(4) to remove disincentives for the development and utilization of blocking and filtering technologies that empower parents to restrict their children’s access to objectionable or inappropriate online material; and
(5) to ensure vigorous enforcement of Federal criminal laws to deter and punish trafficking in obscenity, stalking, and harassment by means of computer.

Partial privatization of a public forum does not change its public forum status. A US park can contain a private restaurant, a private hotel, or a private shop and remain a public forum.

The Internet has only been partially privatized, and even if it had been fully privatized, there would still be a question of purchase for value.

A plurality (maybe a majority) of Internet technology within the US consists of government (or government-supported) networks, end hosts, links, servers, and other miscellaneous devices. A lot of the ISPs in the US are run by the government while the government runs or foots the bill for many if not most of the IAPs and NSPs.

If the government withdrew all of its technology and support for the Internet from the Internet, the US Internet would consist of a bunch of relatively useless disconnected networks.

In addition, it’s a serious issue that a social medium platform does not own the entire network infrastructure down to the Customer Premises Equipment (CPE).

What right does a social medium platform have to discriminate against groups of the public in a network infrastructure that the social medium does not own?

In the pre-breakup days, AT&T was always careful to own its whole network down to every piece of CPE precisely so that it did not run afoul of such an issue.

It is harder to be dumber, stupider, and more brain-dead than a white racist/elitist TechDirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 USPS E-COM

It’s probably beyond the ability of a Tech Dirt white racist/elitist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform to comprehend, but one can take a look at the USPS E-Com section of Email History.

When the federal government declines to regulate, a state government steps into the role of the regulator:

  1. U.S. Constitution Article VI ¶ 2
  2. U.S. Constitution Amendment X.

It is hard to be dumber, stupider, more brain-dead, viler, and more disgusting than a white racist/elitist TechDirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 White racist/elitist genocide-supporter Toom1275 would not know a citation if it ran up to him and bit him on the ankle!

From Federal Register / Vol. 44, No. 181 / Monday, September 17, 1979 / Notices p. 53790.

  1. Not only is the proposed service [USPS E-Com (email)] “communications by wire or radio;” it is also a common carrier activity.

An e-mail service single-page application front-end can be swapped out and replaced with a single-page application front-end for a social medium platform.

From the protocol standpoint there is no difference between an e-mail service and a social medium platform

Toom1275 is not like the other TechDirt white racist/elitist supporters of discrimination by a social medium platform. He does not have vacuum between his ears. He has pure shit between his ears.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

An e-mail service single-page application front-end can be swapped out and replaced with a single-page application front-end for a social medium platform.

Not really.

From the protocol standpoint there is no difference between an e-mail service and a social medium platform

Email and social media have very little in common from any standpoint. They’re both online, both involve speech, but that’s where the similarities end.

But let’s pretend you’re right: so what? From every other standpoint, there is no similarity, and the protocol has never been what decided how the law is applied.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 bhull242 is Internet-Tech-Clueless

bhull242 is good for comic relief.

Email and social media have very little in common from any standpoint. They’re both online, both involve speech, but that’s where the similarities end.

If a backend developer changes the access of data table rows corresponding to a user’s email sent box and if a frontend developer changes the UI presentation of the email sent box in the frontend Single Page Application, the email sent box becomes a Facebook user’s wall or a Twitter user’s home Tweet page.

But let’s pretend you’re right: so what? From every other standpoint, there is no similarity, and the protocol has never been what decided how the law is applied.

Yes, we get back to the law.

If an entity holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee, the entity provides common carriage.

bhull242 can drool nonsense endlessly, but every social medium platform is a message common carrier of digital personal literal property and of other intellectual property.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

If a backend developer changes the access of data table rows corresponding to a user’s email sent box and if a frontend developer changes the UI presentation of the email sent box in the frontend Single Page Application, the email sent box becomes a Facebook user’s wall or a Twitter user’s home Tweet page.

Do you have a point? That doesn’t make them at all similar.

More to the point, that’s not how most e-mail services—or all blogs or social media sites, for that matter—work. Again, e-mails necessarily get sent to one or more addresses; social media posts don’t.

Could you configure an email service in such a way that it could be changed on the front-end to behave like a social media platform? To some extent, yes, but not really since e-mail services talk to one another, meaning a non-transient copy gets sent. Moreover, that isn’t the case for all email services (as some don’t retain a copy on the central server but rather on a user-owned machine), nor is that much of a similarity. “Both often use databases on the backend that could—in theory—be configured to be either public or private” is far from a material similarity. They both use the internet, too. That’s not enough. A car could be used for common carriage, but that doesn’t mean that anything that uses a car is necessarily common carriage. The same goes for the internet and databases.

The front-end—that is, what the service does from a user perspective without worrying about how it accomplishes the necessary tasks—is a critical part of what makes something a common carrier. The fact that emails cannot be seen by anyone other than the sender and designated recipients once the transaction is completed is what makes email a common carrier. That’s not what social media does at all. That the backend can use similar means to achieve these entirely different ends doesn’t mean the two are materially similar.

Yes, we get back to the law.

If an entity holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee, the entity provides common carriage.

Social media platforms don’t hold out carriage at all (outside of direct messaging services like Facebook Messenger, which are generally not moderated), so they don’t provide common carriage by this definition. They also don’t provide either carriage or the services you’re talking about for a fee, so it also fails on that prong. (And no, “eyeballs” and ads are not a fee in this sense.)

[E]very social medium platform is a message common carrier of digital personal literal property and of other intellectual property.

Again, no they aren’t. Not by the definition you cite. Again, they aren’t providing carriage. By your logic, a book publisher would be a common carrier. (And no, the fact that editorial decisions are usually carried out after initial publication is not a material difference in this respect. Book publishers make post-publication editorial decisions as well, and some social media platforms also make some prepublication editorial decisions (like blocking suspected child porn), so there is no substantial difference between the two in this respect.) They also don’t charge the users a fee for the service. Therefore, social media platforms are not common carriers according to the very law you cite.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 What is Academic Research and Communications?

Anyone can be an independent academic researcher, engage in academic research, and participate in academic research.

When DARPA declared the Arpanet/Internet to create a facility for academic research and communications, it declare the Arpanet/Internet to be a state-supported state-designated public forum.

It is hard to be dumber, stupider, and more brain-dead than a white racist/elitist TechDirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

the motivations behind it are that people have had enough of being told what they’re allowed to say and having their statements deleted when they disagree.

And yet, how quickly their tune changes when someone starts saying something they don’t want to allow.

The motivations behind this law are performative grievance politics, nothing more.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Performative grievance politics can still be effective. In fact, grievance motivates people like few other things can. Democrats are hoping that grievance over the Dobbs decision will help them in the midterms. Republicans are hoping that grievance over increases in crime and teaching woke gender ideology will help them. Grievance happens when people think things are very wrong.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Performative grievance politics can still be effective.

Of course it’s effective, that’s why it’s being used. That doesn’t mean it should be used though. Personally, I’d rather debate issues and convince people of the rightness of my cause instead of getting them to back me because I’m good at making them angry at others.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Personally, I’d rather debate issues and convince people of the rightness of my cause”

Which is fine, but there are some people who refuse to be convinced, or engage on an honest level, and everyone else is better off without them. If you have a room of 20 people having a good time, and there’s one drunken asshole trying to grope woman and start fights with men, the correct course of action is to kick that guy out, not to force 19 people to try and talk him into not being a prick.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Multiple Tiers of Common Carriage Are Allowed

One could set up a tier for ME politics as long as the tier allows every POV on ME politics.

One could set up a tier for cooking.

Multiple tiers (market segmentation) represent a good thing from a marketing standpoint, and controversy brings more eyes to a page.

(I used to coffee and pastries several times a week with Edward Bernays. He taught me a lot about marketing and public relations.)

The comments of depraved and evil racial supremacist supporters of ZiΘnist genocide-supporters demonstrate that defense of the 1st Amendment is pretextual mendacity.

Genocide-supporting monsters like Stephen T. Stone and Anonymous Clown strive to guarantee that there be no honest open discussion of ZiΘnist crimes in a major public forum in which Americans participate because they understand that the wrath of Americans will be unimaginable when Americans realize the magnitude of ZiΘnist fraud against the USA.

I don’t care about politics at all. I only care about technology and law (and my family). Yet I believe that Americans of every political stripe can be united against ZiΘnism, the ZiΘnist movement, and the ZiΘnist state.

The world cannot help but become a better place through the process of eradicating ZiΘism

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

There’s thinking. They lost the fight against civil rights for non-whites. They lost their battle against equal rights for homosexuals. So, now that they’ve gone from being legally allowed to attack those other groups to having to treat them as equals in the workplace and on the street, they’ve turned their sights on the trans community.

It’s not great thinking, and a lot of them are being led rather than thinking for themselves, but there is thought behind it.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The primary reason people like Hyman use “woke” is that it’s become a snarl word that can stand for anything. It lets them criticize a broad-ass swath of both people and language without saying exactly what they’re pissed off about. (“Cancel culture” has much the same appeal.) If Hyman were forced to say exactly what he dislikes about the existence of trans people without saying “woke” (or any phrase containing the word), even he knows he’d sound like more of a bigoted prick than he already does. But by hiding behind “woke gender ideologues” as a catch-all perjorative for trans people and their allies, he can deflect any criticisms of his hatred by saying “oh that isn’t what I meant” without actually meaning it.

“Woke”, in this context, has no meaning other than what it means in a given argument. No wonder Hyman loves the word: It lets him argue, depending on the argument, everything or nothing at all.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Nah, you’ve made your anti-trans point very clear.

We don’t want that here.

And the owner has explicitly told you to stop or get lost. If this were meatspace, Mike has the right to call the police to “politely” escort you out of the premises.

You don’t seem to want to leave, however, and it’d be in extremely poor form to go full 4chan to evict a few people so…

I hope you step on a lego.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

When I try to elaborate, our host censors the post and it never appears.

We’ve seen your “elaborations” multiple times, and they have been fact-free and/or filled with bigotry. That Masnick is taking the step to no longer post them suggests a) nothing new was being said, meaning it wouldn’t help anything and is basically just spamming the same thing over and over again but with hateful content, and/or b) what was removed is somehow even worse than what you’ve already posted on that front.

It should be noted that this is the only time I’ve seen him do this. Normally, he only does this with purely commercial spam, with everything else left to automated tools and/or the community moderation. Plenty of others who have been routinely disagreed with here have not had that step taken.

His belief in free speech does not extend to opinions that he despises but are widely popular.

No, it does; it’s just that his belief in free speech includes the right to private moderation of third-party content on privately-owned fora, and it does not include the right to force someone else to host your speech that they don’t want to. There is zero hypocrisy or double-standards here.

Also, the viewpoint you espouse that is being “censored” is widely unpopular among regular viewers of this website, and while not exactly unpopular in general, it is not “widely popular”, either.

This has nothing to do with any flaws in Mike’s stance on free speech and everything to do with you being an asshole to people on this site.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

In most “liberal” places I’ve visited, people will be tolerant beyond reason at times, only banning people if they’re outright hateful or trying to cause a fight. Even then, they might be given a timeout, or have comments hidden rather than banned outright.

In some “conservative” places I’ve seen, people get permabanned just for quoting verifiable facts. Not political views or attacks on other posters – actual factual data.

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Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re:

This law may be stupid, but…

No. No buts. this law is simply stupid and that’s that. Anyone who defends it is equally stupid. As you said, actions do indeed have consequences. Only this is a profoundly stupid action with dangerous consequences if left unchecked. This isn’t an attempt to clamper down social media’s “viewpoint censorship.” This is all irresponsible and incoherent political play to pander to right-wing apologists for the midterms, there is no substance, no logic, not even a justifiable reason for HB 20’s existence that is rooted in reality. It’s all child’s play, crafted by a xenophobic tyrant and his delusional sidekick. Shame on them and shame on you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Nobody is being silenced, its just you do not like not being able to directly attack those you hate. Most people know when to live and let live over different opinions, while you seem to think that you have to convince everybody to agree with you..

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Nobody is being silenced”

They’re “silenced” on the particular platform that tells him to go elsewhere. They still have many other places to go to speak, they’re just unhappy that the places that welcome their sort of person are less popular (which usually translates to “less profitable”) than other venues.

If these people were silenced, we wouldn’t keep hearing their voices, yet there they are…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Very few people have been “silenced”, so to speak. At least in 1A terms.

This site’s funding has been targeted by Google due to the site’s owner and contributors criticizing. Masnick has not been silenced yet, though the lack of Google money has made it harder to continue operations.

Norman Finkelstein, known critic of the Israeli lobby and the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel, has been targeted by certain people who believe in the primacy of Israel due to his speech. He has NOT been silenced despite having some of his books delayed as he had to find different publishers and his conduct toawrds his peers denying him tenure in at least one University. in fact, he’s been the target of a long, drawn-out harassment campaign due to his actual speech. Most of his stuff is still online and I don’t think he’s complained once about being “cancelled”.

And I live in a country where people HAVE been silenced for their opinions and the perpatrators HAVE gotten away with it. Got plenty of other examples across the world if you don’t like me harping on Singapore.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“You think you can silence people you hate and not suffer consequences for it. That’s not how it works.”

Are the people they hate entitled by law to speak using their property? If not, then the property owner disagreeing with a guest and asking them to leave is exactly how it works.

If neither party is the property owner, it gets more complicated, but since the right have spent decades on moral campaigns trying to shut down everything from comic to videogames to music to being allowed to exist as a person who doesn’t conform to something, for us to worry too much about hate being deplatformed.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

People acting on their legal entitlements can still suffer consequences if their behavior is sufficiently upsetting to other people. Bakers and photographers are entitled not to work for events with whose contents they religiously disagree, but that did not stop them from being hauled into court, and needing to litigate all the way to the Supreme Court to be vindicated.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“Bakers and photographers are entitled not to work for events with whose contents they religiously disagree, but that did not stop them from being hauled into court, and needing to litigate all the way to the Supreme Court to be vindicated.”

If you paid attention to facts and not the fictional version of events spread by hatemongers, you’d know that the people in that bakery case stated they were happy to bake cakes for the couple until they realised they were gay. Which falls directly foul of laws stating that you can’t discriminate against protected classes, which is a condition of offering services to the public. Basically, if you offer a service to the public, you can’t pick and choose who counts, which is something that’s been in place because people got tired of racists of refusing services to black people.

If you own a bakery, but hate gay people, you have 2 choices – offer your services to the public but suck it up if you are asked to deliver a product to gay people, or set up a private club where the same rules don’t necessarily apply but you only get to serve homophobes willing to join. If you want the benefits of public access, you have to accept the conditions, which include baking cakes for gay people as much as it does not giving the wedding party salmonella.

I’m not sure why people like you obsess so much about what other consenting adults do behind closed doors, but I do support their right to be treated as people.

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Darkness Of Course (profile) says:

Re: flapping of something

Yet, you nor they cannot figure out that you can state your bile in your own platform, your home, where I choose not to hear it.

Now, Texas wants to ensure that others provide the infrastructure for hate to be spilled across the entire web. Why do they have to fund your hate? It would be like forcing you to put Planned Parenthood posters on your house. And you would have to keep them secure from both you and your neighbors.

1st Amend grants the right of association, I know this is hard for you, but many of us choose not to associate with those that keep getting deleted from social media. They can go to Truth Whatever to be with their own kind?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Large speech platforms can protect their business by banning those whose behavior on the platform is likely to drive users away. If people want a largely moderated platform they can use 8kun or the likes, they don’t so the moderation is part of the reason they stay with the platform.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Large generic speech platforms should not be censoring people based on their viewpoints”

It’s their right, and large platforms depend on a lot of people going there. If homophobes, racists and other people are not silenced, their more numerous and more valuable customers will choose to go elsewhere.

“When people speak in the public square”

The public square is publicly owned. The mall can still kick your abusive ass out even if the government can’t stop you setting up your soap box on a street corner. The fact that it’s a large mall doesn’t magically change the rights of its owners to protect its shoppers.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“The public square is publicly owned.”

Packingham v. North Carolina you fucking moron.

“North Carolina with one broad stroke bars access to
what for many are the principal sources for knowing current events, checking ads for employment, speaking and
listening in THE MODERN PUBIC SQUARE, and otherwise
exploring the vast realms of human thought and
knowledge.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

North Carolina with one broad stroke bars access to
what for many are the principal sources for knowing current events, checking ads for employment, speaking and
listening in THE MODERN PUB[L]IC SQUARE,

SCOTUS is talking about “cyberspace” there, which is an abstract that nobody owns, and it’s in reference to saying that the Government can’t totally restrict Internet access from a criminal. Doesn’t say anything about a private party restricting access to their site for breaking that site’s rules.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Nope. The law in question sepcifcally barred people from “social media” sites not cyber space as a whole.

Also typical Mike’s Misfits bouncing back and further between super general ‘shouting racist epithets in a bar’ to super specific ‘yeah but that doesn’t say twitter specifically’.

You have zero first principles and like all of Mike’s misfits you are an evil person. Only sociopaths and psychopaths have no first principles.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The NC law specifically said “to access a commercial social networking Web site where the sex offender knows that the site permits minor children to become members or to create or maintain personal Web pages”.

That the SCOTUS opinion when striking the law down used generalized concepts to make a point doesn’t transform a commercial social networking Web site into the legal equivalent of a public square, because that would have stripped the commercial entity of its rights.

Why don’t you understand context?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“That the SCOTUS opinion when striking the law down used generalized concepts to make a point doesn’t transform a commercial social networking Web site into the legal equivalent of a public square, because that would have stripped the commercial entity of its rights.”

Prove it?

Furthermore prove how this Texas law which incorporates some 98.5% the market isn’t the MODERN PUBLIC SQUARE?

Does the 1.5% that falls outside of this law keep the 98.5% from being the modern public square as decided by Packingham.

You realize that your stupid argument is definitional fallacy and fallacy of specificity?

Of course you don’t. You are too fucking stupid to realize that.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Prove it?

Why would I need to prove it when SCOTUS specifically addressed that point in Halleck v MNN.

Furthermore prove how this Texas law which incorporates some 98.5% the market isn’t the MODERN PUBLIC SQUARE?

It’s not my problem you don’t understand context. A market as a whole can have all the hallmarks of a “public square”, but the private entities making up that market can’t individually be considered to be public squares because they individually don’t have the majority of the users.

Also, a law regulating speech.. What a novel idea, I’m sure the founding fathers had something to say about that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It didn’t bar them from A social media site, it barred them from ALL social media sites. And again, the decision said The Government couldn’t make that restriction. It didn’t say anything about a specific site kicking someone off of that site.

Also, different parts of the decision talk about different things. The part you quoted about “the modern public square” wasn’t specifically in reference to social media.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Once again you are confusing state actor and public interest. As part of the modern public square all major BigTech companies are part of the public interest and subject to regulation. If they wish to remove their private property from the regulation they need only remove their private property from the public interest.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Once again you are confusing state actor and public interest.

No, I’m not. A privately owned business that opens its doors to the public does not automatically become either a state actor or a public forum. A restaurant can open its doors to the public and still refuse to both put up some rando’s flyers and serve disruptive assholes. For what reason⁠—other than “Twitter big” and “Twitter is open for public use”⁠—should Twitter be unable to determine what speech and users it will and won’t host based on the speech itself and the conduct of a given user?

And yes, I know that a public-facing business can be regulated. But the government can’t make my local Food Lion host something I want to put in their window. I just want to know what makes Twitter so different, beyond its size and ubiquity as an online service, that the government should step in and force Twitter to host everything from racial slurs to pro-anorexia propaganda to unlicensed Overwatch 2 dickriding.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

This law applies ot 98.5% of the market

98.5% of the Internet is Social Media?

Also, Packingham (emphasis mine):

A basic rule, for example, is that a street or a park is a quintessential forum for the exercise of First Amendment rights. See Ward v. Rock Against Racism, 491 U. S. 781, 796 (1989). Even in the modern era, these places are still essential venues for public gatherings to celebrate some views, to protest others, or simply to learn and inquire.
While in the past there may have been difficulty in identifying the most important places (in a spatial sense) for the exchange of views, today the answer is clear. It is cyberspace—the “vast democratic forums of the Internet” in general, Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844, 868 (1997), and social media in particular.

Cyberspace “in general” is an important place for speech. The Court says that social media is one of the most important places that play a major role in that speech, but this decision does not go so far as to explicitly declare privately-owned commercial communication sites as identical to government-owned public spaces. Halleck reinforces that differentiation when it says that providing an open forum for speech does not automatically make that space a “public forum.”

Social media allows users to gain access to information and communicate with one another about it on any subject that might come to mind. Supra, at 5. By prohibiting sex offenders from using those websites, North Carolina with one broad stroke bars access to what for many are the principal sources for knowing current events, checking ads for employment, speaking and listening in the modern public square, and otherwise exploring the vast realms of human thought and knowledge.

This says that social media is a “principal source” of communication in the modern public square, but it does not say that social media is the modern public square.

to foreclose access to social media altogether is to prevent the user from engaging in the legitimate exercise of First Amendment rights

Getting banned from Twitter by Twitter itself does not “foreclose access to social media altogether.”

It is well established that, as a general rule, the Government “may not suppress lawful speech as the means to suppress unlawful speech.” Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition, 535 U. S., at 255. That is what North Carolina has done here. Its law must be held invalid.

The Government may not suppress speech. A private party can suppress speech on its property.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It is a general law applying to the general MODERN PUBLIC SQUARE.

Yes or no: Is a U.S.-based Mastodon instance a public forum, such that the government should require a queer-friendly instance to host propaganda for the barbaric anti-queer practice known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ”? Remember: You must apply the same principles to the Masto instance as you do to Twitter.

Also yes or no: Is Gab a public forum, such that the government should require it to host pro–Joe Biden propaganda? Remember: You must apply the same principles to Gab as you do to Twitter.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If any of these were to become large enough to comply with greater regulatory law then yes. Relative size is a part of basic regulatory law you ignorant child. There are more regulations to follow if you are renting a 4-Plex as apposed to an attached apartment. The larger you are the more regs you follow you fucking dipshit.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

If any of these were to become large enough to comply with greater regulatory law then yes.

Just so we’re clear: You believe the law should force a queer-friendly Mastodon instance to host anti-queer speech if that Mastodon instance hits a certain size.

Okay.

Let’s run with that.

  1. How would you measure that magic size: overall user count, active user count, traffic numbers, a combination thereof, or some other metric not listed here?
  2. What should happen if the instance hitting that magic size where you believe the law should compel the instance to host all legal speech?
  3. How long of a “grace period” should the instance have before it must comply with the compelled hosting of all legal speech, such that the instance can update its userbase on the forced change in policy?
  4. What happens if the instance falls back below that magic size, regardless of how much time passes between hitting the metric and falling back below it?
  5. What sort of penalty should the law place upon the instance’s owner(s) if they voluntarily shut down the instance to avoid a compelled association with speech they didn’t want to host?
  6. What defense, if any, should the instance’s owner(s) be able to raise in court if they choose to challenge that penalty?

I mean, if you really want to force speech onto platforms, let’s get all the fucking details down so we know exactly how much of a fascist you are.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Even if that is a correct interpretation of Mike’s argument (and I’m not sure that it is), that doesn’t mean that everyone in the comment section is trying to make the same argument, and you should not assume that they are. Discuss the points that are raised and the argument that is being made, not the argument that you think they’re making.

For clarity, with respect to this Texas law, my fundamental argument is: “HB20 seeks to limit the editorial discretion of social media companies by making it illegal for a social media company to remove certain posts that it does not wish to host. Editorial discretion is recognized as a form of protected speech under the First Amendment. Therefore, HB20 is unconstitutional.”

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

It is the specific fallacy that fist got me here. As an engineer I’m under the jurisdiction of my states Engineers, Architects, and Land Surveyors board.

Mike’s stupid BigTech isn’t like telecom arguments hit a nerve because BigTech is closer to telecom than I am to a Land Surveyor.

It became clear that Mike is a manchild who has never worked a single hour at a real job in his entire fucking life.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

A mob of dipshits agreeing with each other is not losing. If you agreed with me then I’d be worried. You are some of the dumbest people on the internet.

“TechDirt” does anyone who writes articles here or post here other than me and a few others actually have degrees in tech? Mikes an MBA, Karl is a fucking theater major.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I have a degree in tech, and I can confidently say you either don’t know what you’re talking about on this subject or do not understand how words work.

Not that a degree in tech is even necessary to prove you wrong, especially since we’re discussing law here, but you are engaging in the fallacy of saying that someone is wrong because they lack a degree.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

What’s bhull242’s tech specialty? Refrigerators?

Nope. I know the basics of how they work from a layman perspective, but I could never design, build, or fix one without the help of someone who actually knew what they were doing.

For the record, I’m a software engineer. I design software for a variety of applications, from database applications to controlling a testing apparatus to UIs to bug-testing software.

Not that this is terribly important here, which you seem to agree with here:

I don’t care about degrees.

Yes, but I was talking to Chozen, who was the one who brought up degrees in the first place, not you.

I did work for IBM when I was 10 back in the 60s.

I’m doubtful about this if only because of child-labor laws. (There may be other reasons, but this is the first stumbling block.) I highly doubt that IBM would risk employing a 10-year-old to do anything no matter how good you were.

The management was so impressed that IBM gave my prep school free access to an IBM 7094 II.

Again, I’m doubtful of this story, but more importantly, it’s entirely irrelevant.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The San Diego Zoo has the right to turn you away because ypu hurled rape threats at its patrons, visitors and zookeepers. So does Disneyland.

What you want Texas to do is to either see these public places die financially from hosting your vile filth (since we all know the NeoNazi crowd has the marketshare to replace the non-NeoNazi marketshare), or worse, be investigated for harboring terrorism.

Though we all know what you really want: to see the San Diego Zoo be considered a criminal for actually expressing its 1A right to not associate with white terrorist filth.

Forget 1A, what do you have against endangered species and conservation work? What you are advocating for will harm zoos and other entities that have public spaces as part of their business models. Not to mention the knockdown effects it will also have on city planning…

But then again, the Nazis were well knwon for forward planning…

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

“The San Diego Zoo has the right to turn you away because ypu hurled rape threats at its patrons, visitors and zookeepers. So does Disneyland.”

No such right exists. They have a legal privilege to do so in accordance with state and local law.

As one of Mike’s misfits you have confused rights and statutes.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

This law may be stupid, but the motivations behind it are that people have had enough of being told what they’re allowed to say and having their statements deleted when they disagree.

Then they can go open their own website and say whatever they want on that site. No one⁠—I repeat, no one⁠—has a legal right to use Twitter, Facebook, or any other interactive web service. Prove me wrong, fucker.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Whether they have a legal right in fact depends on what the law is, so you need to hope that this law doesn’t stand.

Large generic speech platforms should not be censoring opinions based on viewpoint. Doing so is a violation of the principles of free speech, whether or not it is legally permitted. If they do, they should be criticized and if possible, punished, until they change their behavior.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Have you never actually read the First Amendment?”

Free speech and the first Amendment are not the same thing. The first Amendment recognizes and protects the existing right of free speech from State interference. It does not create the right itself.

When it comes to this law, this is the whole point of government. The fundamental purpose of government is to protect the rights of the people from private aggression, be that someone else in the tribe stealing your stuff or a neighboring tribe aggressing on your stuff. That is why government was first formed and is still the fundamental role of government.

When private actors want to infringe on the rights of the people be that through force or market power its the job of government to pull the god damn choke-chain and bring those private actors too their knees.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

“So people aren’t free to choose who they want associate with then?”

You aren’t associating with them you fucking idiot! No reasonable person would consider it an association. That you do is just proof that you are unreasonable, stupid, and/or insane.

The courts have ruled multiple times that no reasonable person would consider it your speech or your association. That you do consider it as such is prima fascia that you are unreasonable.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You aren’t associating with them you fucking idiot!

Yes, you are. By allowing you to use their services, a social media service has made the choice to let you associate with them, in the sense that you’re one of their users. Whether anyone else considers you or your speech to be “associated” with the service in any meaningful way doesn’t matter. It’s much the same way in meatspace: By allowing someone to shop in a store, that store is associating with that customer, even if the association is temporary and limited. If that customer starts acting like a disruptive little shit in the store, the store can terminate that association by kicking the customer out⁠—and the aforementioned social media service can do the same to you if you start acting like a disruptive little shit.

Cite the law or legal precedent that says any privately owned entity that opens its doors to the public must associate, in any way, with anyone who disrupts the peace. Please note that this applies to both cyber- and meatspace. Please also note that citing non-discrimination laws will do you no good; in this context, I’m referring explicitly and specifically to conduct and speech intended to disrupt, not to being part of a protected class of people.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

And no reasonable person believes that.

Why wouldn’t they? If Twitter lets you use the service, it’s letting you associate with Twitterm even if no one else perceives that association. By kicking you off the service for being a disruptive shit, Twitter would be ending that association, even if no one else perceives that association.

That means you are stupid and/or mentally insane.

…says Mr. Public House-ing, who thinks people being raped in prison is funny.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

If its is a freedom of association to refuse service than the civil rights act is unconstitutional you fucking dipshit.

Refusing service based on who someone is falls afoul of non-discrimination laws. Refusing service based on what someone says or does, on the other hand, is perfectly legal. A store can’t legally kick someone out because of their race, but it can legally kick that someone out for being a disruptive little shit; I fail to see how that logic shouldn’t apply to Twitter.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

What about my argument is “circular”? The law says a public-facing business can’t discriminate based on particular protected classes. It says nothing about being unable to discriminate based on conduct and speech. Being Black isn’t the same thing as harassing other customers by yelling at them.

Social media services moderate based on conduct and speech. They’re legally allowed to do that. Show me the law or legal precedent that explicitly says otherwise.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

“What about my argument is “circular”?”

You cant pass a law that requires BigTech to give service to viewpoints they don’t like because freedom of association.

Then how is the Civil Rights Act legal when it forces business to give service to people they don’t like.

That’s different because its illegal because the Civil Right Act says so.

So congress passed a law you are saying that they have no authority to pass.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

You cant pass a law that requires BigTech to give service to viewpoints they don’t like because freedom of association.

Then how is the Civil Rights Act legal when it forces business to give service to people they don’t like.

The Fourteenth Amendment, the Civil Rights Act, and various other laws and legal precedents all protect someone’s right to be part of the general public and participate in the public sphere. Not a one of us gets to decide who is part of the general public. We must all compromise our conduct to make room for others with whom we disagree, even if that “disagreement” is rooted in their very existence.

But using Twitter is not the only way to be part of the public sphere on the Internet. Being denied the privilege of using Twitter⁠—and yes, it is a privilege⁠—doesn’t stop anyone from speaking their mind on the Internet. No one is entitled to a platform or an audience at someone else’s expense.

Right now would be a great time for you to cite a law or legal precedent that explicitly says someone has a guaranteed legal right to use Twitter. If you can’t, you’re gonna need a better argument for forcing your speech onto Twitter than “but muh Civil Rights Act”.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

“The Fourteenth Amendment, the Civil Rights Act, and various other laws and legal precedents all protect someone’s right to be part of the general public and participate in the public sphere.”

The 14th Amendment only applies to government and an act of congress cannot void the constitution.

“No state shall make or enforce any law”

And the civil rights act as an act of congress cannot void a constitutional right. If BigTech had a 1st Amendment Right then civil rights acts would be unconstitutional you fucking idiot!

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Then how is the Civil Rights Act legal when it forces business to give service to people they don’t like.

Because there is a specific exception to the freedom of association for this specific kind of regulation. That exception does not apply to discrimination based on conduct, speech, or political affiliation. (It also doesn’t apply to non-public-facing businesses (outside of employees) or to purely private individuals (aside from landlords) who engage in any sort of discrimination, but that’s not relevant here.)

Much like how there’s a carve-out to the freedom of speech for defamation law (among other things), there is also a carve-out to the freedom of association for civil rights laws. That doesn’t change the fact that laws that implicate freedom of association that don’t fall into such an exception are (usually) unconstitutional.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 Please Study Constitutional Law

Title II of the 1964 CRA is carefully crafted

  1. within the bounds of Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3 of the U.S. Constitution, and
  2. within those of Amendment XIV.

There is no exception to an implied freedom of association.

Because there is a specific exception to the freedom of association for this specific kind of regulation. That exception does not apply to discrimination based on conduct, speech, or political affiliation.

42 U.S. Code § 2000a is often described as a regulation of (business) conduct.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

There is no exception to an implied freedom of association.

Defamation law doesn’t say in the statute that it is an exception to freedom of speech, but it still is. No statute says, “This is an exception to [insert constitutional right here].” The fact is that it is an exception.

42 U.S. Code § 2000a is often described as a regulation of (business) conduct.

And that conduct is discrimination based on membership in a protected class. That code is not a regulation of conduct that is discrimination based on conduct. You’re dealing with the wrong part of it.

Additionally, conduct can also be speech, and association is necessarily conduct.

Really, I have no idea what your point here is.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

It is difficult to get a person to understand something when their entire argument depends upon their real or feigned ignorance of it.

Admitting that there’s a difference between what someone is and what someone does sinks the whole ‘anti-discrimination laws prohibit showing someone the door for what they do’ argument so of course they’ll never do so unless they want to admit that it’s a garbage argument.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

That is not the argument you are making.

That is not a constitutional argument. That’s a salutatory argument. You don’t have a constitutional right to throw anyone out of your business. You have right to ask people to leave and maybe depending on the laws in your state throw them out or more likely have licensed security throw them out as the law allows.

This Texas act is the law that sets the boundaries of what Twitter is allowed to do just like the law sets the boundaries of what any Texas bar is allowed to do you fucking moron.

Like I said in the beginning this was always a statutory argument not a constitutional one. There is no constitutional right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. You only have a legal privilege based on the law.

Mike and his BigTech financiers attempted to create a constitutional right that did not exist in the constitution that would apply only to big tech and no one else.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

You don’t have a constitutional right to throw anyone out of your business.

Yes, you do, unless you no longer believe in property rights.

This Texas act is the law that sets the boundaries of what Twitter is allowed to do

And by trying to force Twitter into hosting speech, the law violates the First Amendment in at least two different ways.

There is no constitutional right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.

Even if that right isn’t explicitly guaranteed within the Constitution, it must exist in some form within the law, or else no public-facing business could ever refuse to serve someone who is being a disruptive shit. Or do you actually believe a local mom-and-pop diner can be forced by federal law to serve someone who walks into the diner only to yell at other customers while they eat?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

That is not the argument you are making.

It literally is.

That is not a constitutional argument.

Once again, it literally is. There is an exception to the constitutional freedom of association that allows the government to prohibit discrimination based on something by race, but that exception does not apply to something like conduct or speech (except for some religious conduct so long as it isn’t disruptive and not specific to a particular religion in terms of enforcement). This is why laws like the Civil Rights Act are constitutional but laws that prohibit private businesses from kicking people out (metaphorically) for their speech and/or conduct are not.

That’s a salutatory argument.

I assume you meant statutory, but no, it isn’t. Again, there is an exception to a constitutional right for the Civil Rights Act, but that does mean this isn’t a constitutional argument.

You don’t have a constitutional right to throw anyone out of your business.

Yes, you do. There is a 4th Amendment right against uncompensated takings by the government (which includes infringement of property rights) and a 1st Amendment right of free association (which includes the right to not associate with someone) which allows them to do so.

You have right to ask people to leave and maybe depending on the laws in your state throw them out or more likely have licensed security throw them out as the law allows.

The government can regulate the means taken to enforce the right, but not who to enforce the right against or (except for the aforementioned exception for the Civil Rights Act) why.

This Texas act is the law that sets the boundaries of what Twitter is allowed to do just like the law sets the boundaries of what any Texas bar is allowed to do […].

The only reason the government can regulate the means for enforcing a decision to kick someone out is because there is the issue of assault or injury. It cannot decide who a Texas bar or Twitter can kick out somehow nor why (again, excluding things like the Civil Rights Act). A Texas bar can kick out anyone they want based on their speech and/or conduct, and Texas can’t pass a law keeping them from doing so; they can only regulate the means taken to remove the trespasser from the property. This exception doesn’t apply to Twitter as there is no human to physically remove from the property, but either way, Texas still cannot keep Twitter from deciding to kick someone off based on their speech and/or conduct nor from taking some means to enforce that decision.

Like I said in the beginning this was always a statutory argument not a constitutional one. There is no constitutional right to refuse service to anyone for any reason. You only have a legal privilege based on the law.

Like I said in the beginning, this is entirely false.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Can you cite a law or legal precedent that outlaws a “no shirt, no shoes, no service” policy?

I think you’re asking the wrong question in this case. Chozen is claiming a constitutional argument here, so perhaps the question should be “Can you cite where in the constitution a “no shirt, no shoes, no service” policy is prohibited?”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I must under the law allow members of the same religious institutions attend dance classes at my studio. To turn them away would be a crime.

And if they disrupt your classes by shouting anti-queer slurs, you have the right to kick them out for being disruptive little shits. You continually fail to understand⁠—willingly or not⁠—that what someone says and does is different from who someone is. One’s conduct on private property, even if that property is open to the public, can determine whether the person is asked to leave or allowed to stay.

And that’s what you seem to have a problem with, seeing as how you’re on the side of people who want to make Twitter host all legally protected speech.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

“And if they disrupt your classes by shouting anti-queer slurs, you have the right to kick them out for being disruptive little shits.”

I have no such right. I can tell them to leave and if they refuse to leave according to the laws in my state and locality I can call the police to have them escorted out. That is a legal privilege.

I have no constitutional right what so ever.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

With few exceptions if they did not B&E that would be assault and battery on your part. As has been pointed out here Texas is one of the few states that actually allows your to forcibly remove someone who has been told to leave and will not. In almost all states and jurisdictions you have to call the cops or have licensed security do it.

The fact that this varies state to state based on state law is prima fascia evidence that there is no “Constitutional right” like you disphits keep claiming. If it were a “Constitutional Right” it would be the same in all states.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

You are conflating the right of refusal with the act of removal.

Even if the law does not permit me to enact forced removal myself, the law recognizes that if a party is on my property without my permission, they have committed a crime. This is true if they have never had permission, or if permission has been withdrawn.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

“the law recognizes”

The law AKA a statute passed by the legislature not he Constitution. You only have the authority the law gives you nothing more. You have absolutely no constitutional right what so ever. So there is no constitutional argument to be made against the Texas law.

This was always a statutory issue and a statutory question. Mike and his silicone valley patrons wanted it to be a right for them and only them so they attempted to invent a Constitutional right enjoyed only by BigTech.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I can tell them to leave and if they refuse to leave according to the laws in my state and locality I can call the police to have them escorted out. That is a legal privilege.

If the ability to control access to property exists only in permissions granted by the government then it’s the government that owns the property, not private parties.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

“then it’s the government that owns the property, not private parties.”

I knowingly opened my business to the public as such I subject myself to the regulations of the public in the public interest. If I wish to have full control of my property back I need only remove my property from the public interest. .

You manchildren seem to have a big problem with taking responsibility for your choices.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

I knowingly opened my business to the public as such I subject myself to the regulations of the public in the public interest.

This is not in dispute. Nobody is saying that businesses cannot be regulated.

I am saying “I can do whatever I want unless the law tells me I can’t.”

However, your argument seems to be “If the law does not explicitly allow it, I cannot do it.”

Do you not see the difference?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

However, your argument seems to be “If the law does not explicitly allow it, I cannot do it.”

When have I made that argument? This is a thread about the Texas law that tells Big tech it cant.

Those on Mike’s side keep attempting to argue that there is a right to refuse service. There is no such right.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:24

When have I made that argument?

You just said it.

You only have the authority the law gives you nothing more.

Also:

no constitutional argument to be made against the Texas law.

The constitutional argument being made, as I understand it, is that the law violates the First Amendment by improperly limiting editorial discretion, which is a form of protected speech.

The “right to refuse service” isn’t a constitutional argument, as far as I’m aware. It is an argument based in the concept of private ownership; that is, “You do not have the “right” to be on and/or use my property without my permission.”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:26

If that were true the civil rights act would be unconstitutional.

Did I not just say “The “right to refuse service” isn’t a constitutional argument, as far as I’m aware.”

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but it’s becoming very clear that you do not argue in good faith. That, or you’re just really bad at it.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

It just like when people say “freedom of association” there is no such right in the first amendment. There is an implied right to groups speech and group assembly which has been called “freedom of association” in a common hyperbole but no such right actually exists.

That’s why there is no constitutional right for tech platforms to deny service. No reasonable person would consider it their group speech or assembly and association isn’t really a right.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

when people say “freedom of association” there is no such right in the first amendment

That it isn’t explicitly called such in the Constitution doesn’t make it non-existent. Otherwise, you could cite the exact law or legal precedent that says people who own private property can’t kick people off (or have people kicked off) that property under any circumstances.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

“That it isn’t explicitly called such in the Constitution doesn’t make it non-existent. Otherwise, you could cite the exact law or legal precedent that says people who own private property can’t kick people off (or have people kicked off) that property under any circumstances.”

Can a racist restaurant owner kick a black customer out for being black?

Did it ever occur to you that all your arguments were made by segregationists? Did it ever occur to you that making those same arguments is pirma fascia evidence that fundamentally you are an evil person?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31

“Can the same restaurant owner kick out a black person for screaming obscenities at other customer?”

As long as the law allows.

Why do you morons always go back to extreme examples that are not at all applicable.

What you are talking about is disorderly conduct. Why the fuck do you always go to extreme examples that are irrelevant.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32

What you are talking about is disorderly conduct.

And that’s our whole point when talking about Twitter, dipshit: Under your assertion that “Big Tech” should and must host all legal speech, Twitter wouldn’t be able to kick people off the service for what is essentially disorderly conduct. Anyone could slip into a Black user’s mentions with a lot of racial slurs and Twitter would be unable to do anything about it because, as you damn well know, hate speech is protected speech.

You’re the one who wants to protect the right of bigots to harass the targets of that bigotry off social media. The rest of us are telling you how fucked in the head you are for wanting that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30

Can a racist restaurant owner kick a black customer out for being black?

Not explicitly, no. But if you think a racist can’t come up with an excuse, you’re deluding yourself.

Did it ever occur to you that all your arguments were made by segregationists?

No, it didn’t⁠—because I’m not making those arguments.

I’ve said that non-discrimination laws are about protecting people who enter the public sphere based on who they are, not their conduct or speech. Twitter shouldn’t have the right to ban someone from using the service because they’re Black or white, straight or gay, Christian or atheist. But Twitter should (and does) have the right to ban someone for being a disruptive little shit regardless of their race, sexual identity, religious creed, and so on. Conduct and speech are not inherent traits; they shouldn’t be grounds to prevent private property owners from kicking out disruptive little shits.

Under your logic and your beliefs and your ideals, Twitter would be unable to kick off anyone who spends all day hurling racial slurs at Black users specifically because those slurs are protected speech. If anyone is on the side of bigots in this argument, it’s you.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31

“I’ve said that non-discrimination laws are about protecting people who enter the public sphere based on who they are, not their conduct or speech”

Constitutionally that doesn’t matter at all. Does the law violate the 1st, 4th or 5h amendments is all that matters.

The answer in both is no. No reasonable person would consider it your speech and you have opened your private property up to the public as such you accept pubic regulation.

I get that you think its important because its “racism” but legally that is no issue at all.

As you always like to fucking remind us the 1st Amendment only applies to government not ‘muh private platform’, its the same with the 14th Amendment you fucking moron.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32

No reasonable person would consider it your speech and you have opened your private property up to the public as such you accept pub[l]ic regulation.

Yes or no: Can the government make a privately owned supermarket host any and all speech from customers who want to hang up flyers in said supermarket?

the 1st Amendment only applies to government not ‘muh private platform’, its the same with the 14th Amendment

And where in the Fourteenth Amendment does it say that a privately owned entity that opens its doors to the public can’t refuse service based on the conduct and speech of a given customer? Because it sounds like you think a bakery must serve someone yelling anti-gay slurs at gay customers “or else”.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:33

“And where in the Fourteenth Amendment does it say that a privately owned entity that opens its doors to the public can’t refuse service based on the conduct and speech of a given customer? ”

Where does it say in the 14th Amendment that the state can’t force them to serve all customers regardless of viewpoint?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:34

There is a difference between banning someone for their viewpoint, but who behave politely in the shop, and banning someone for aggressively putting forward their viewpoint in the shop. But here you are claiming the viewpoint excuses abusive behavior, and it does not natter how much that behavior damages their business, they should still serve you.

Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:35

“There is a difference between banning someone for their viewpoint, but who behave politely in the shop, and banning someone for aggressively putting forward their viewpoint in the shop. But here you are claiming the viewpoint excuses abusive behavior, and it does not natter how much that behavior damages their business, they should still serve you.”

No one is saying that. You are saying that because you do not have a reasonble argument so you engage in fallacy of extrapolation ot absurdity.

Viewpoint deiscrimination is legally protected in both California and Washington D.C. Are people going into shops and s” putting forward their viewpoint.”

Mike and his misfits frineds made this argument before the court in the 5th circuit. They got laughed out brecuase the court doens’t take those kind of absurd arguments lightly.

“(1) offers a facial constitutional remedy that protects speech. It (2) does not apply here because if Section 7 chills anything, it chills censorship. And the Platforms’ parade of whataboutisms proves their real complaint is a purely speculative one about how HB 20 will be enforced. The Platforms are therefore not entitled to pre-enforcement facial relief against Section 7.”

“Third, the Platforms principally argue against HB 20 by speculating about the most extreme hypothetical applications of the law. Such WHATABOUTISMS further exemplify why it’s inappropriate to hold the law facially unconstitutional in a pre-enforcement posture.”

“Explaining the perceived need for the law, Texas and its amici cite numerous instances in which the Platforms have censored what Texas contends is pure political speech. For example, one amicus brief documents the Platforms’ censorship of fifteen prominent celebrities and political figures—including five holding federal elected office. See Brief for Amici Curiae The Babylon Bee, LLC, et al. at 26–38. Texas also points to the Platforms’ “discriminat[ion] against Americans and in favor of foreign adversaries” and censorship of even a congressional hearing that featured disfavored viewpoints.

The Platforms do not directly engage with any of these concerns. Instead, their primary contention—beginning on page 1 of their brief and repeated throughout and at oral argument—is that we should declare HB 20 facially invalid because it prohibits the Platforms from censoring “pro-Nazi speech, terrorist propaganda, [and] Holocaust denial[s].” Red Br. at 1.

Far from justifying pre-enforcement facial invalidation, the Platforms’ obsession with terrorists and Nazis proves the opposite. The Supreme Court has instructed that “[i]n determining whether a law is facially invalid,” we should avoid “speculat[ing] about ‘hypothetical’ or ‘imaginary’ cases.” Wash. State Grange, 552 U.S. at 449–50.”

Mike the the idiot lawayers hired by BigTech argued this case beofre the court like they were arguing on TechDirt and the court was having none of it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36

No one is saying that.

You have been continually arguing that “viewpoint discrimination” shouldn’t be a thing. You’ve also ignored or sidestepped that other commenters are talking not about discrimination against protected classes of people, but consequences for conduct and speech on private property. If you’re not saying what you’ve been accused of saying, you’re close to saying it that your protests ring hollow.

Viewpoint deiscrimination is legally protected in both California and Washington D.C.

In California, that’s in regards to employment⁠—which means your boss can’t fire you for attending a Trump rally in your off time. Those protections don’t extend to having your speech hosted on Twitter, no matter how much you try to say otherwise.

I’m unaware of the law in D.C. and don’t have time at the moment to do a deep dive on that. But I would think it’s little-to-no different than California law in this regard.

the [Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals] doe[sn]’t take those kind of absurd arguments lightly.

The Fifth Circuit’s decision was (and still is) widely regarded by lawyers and legal experts as a shit decision. Only people who agree with the decision (mostly because it means “one step closer to compelled speech on Twitter”) think that decision was a good one⁠—especially when comparing it to the Eleventh Circuit decision in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida, which was far more reasoned (and reasonable).

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:37

“consequences for conduct and speech on private property”

You opened your private property to the public interest. Therefore you have subjected your private property to the public control in so far as to that public interest. If you wish to remove your property from that public control you need only remove your property from the public interest.

I’ve said it dozens of times to you morons. Dont know why it hasn’t stuck yet.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:38

You opened your private property to the public interest. Therefore you have subjected your private property to the public control in so far as to that public interest.

If I stand in the middle of a Dollar General and yell anything I want, the store’s manager can have me removed from the building for my conduct. Nothing in the law says they can’t eject people over conduct that disrupts business.

A public accomodation business is not in “public control”, such that the public gets to decide what is and isn’t disruptive conduct/speech. Such businesses must serve the general public equally. That doesn’t mean they must let the general public shit wherever they please inside that business⁠—literally or metaphorically. You have yet to cite a law or legal precedent that disproves this position. You will not cite one in the future. Find a new argument; this one is dead.

Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:39

“If I stand in the middle of a Dollar General and yell anything I want, the store’s manager can have me removed from the building for my conduct. Nothing in the law says they can’t eject people over conduct that disrupts business.”

“Far from justifying pre-enforcement facial invalidation, the Platforms’ obsession with terrorists and Nazis proves the opposite. The Supreme Court has instructed that “[i]n determining whether a law is facially invalid,” we should avoid “speculat[ing] about ‘hypothetical’ or ‘imaginary’ cases.” Wash. State Grange, 552 U.S. at 449–50.””

Pretty much exactly the kind of speculatory hypotheticals the court called legally bullshit!

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:38

Dont know why it hasn’t stuck yet.

The reason your lies aren’t sticking is because you’ve proven only that almost everyone here understands Pruneyard far better than you do.

There has never been anyone who claims Pruneyard applies to online platforms in any way who wasn’t a complete moron.

Not Prager, and definitely not you.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:39

“The reason your lies aren’t sticking is because you’ve proven only that almost everyone here understands Pruneyard far better than you do.”

lol

“But see PruneYard Shopping Ctr. v.
Robins, 447 U.S. 74, 88 (1980) (upholding a California law protecting the
right to pamphleteer in privately owned shopping centers). So First Amendment doctrine permits regulating the conduct of an entity that hosts speech, but it generally forbids forcing the host itself to speak or interfering with the host’s own message.”

So these justices are just complete morons. Yeah you wonder why Mike and his legal misfits at NetChoice lost this case.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:40

First Amendment doctrine permits regulating the conduct of an entity that hosts speech, but it generally forbids forcing the host itself to speak or interfering with the host’s own message

The First Amendment permits such regulations, but they don’t permit regulations that would otherwise deprive those entities of their own First Amendment rights⁠—which include the right to free speech, under which moderation certainly falls.

Your whole argument rests on the idea that the First Amendment gives you the right to force someone else into disseminating your speech at their expense. Can you cite any law or legal precedent that says any given private entity must host/disseminate your speech (e.g., a newspaper must print your letter to the editor)?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:41

“The First Amendment permits such regulations, but they don’t permit regulations that would otherwise deprive those entities of their own First Amendment rights⁠—which include the right to free speech, under which moderation certainly falls.”

Pruneyard denying the petitioners is moderation. The court denied that was free speech because no reasonable person would consider the petitioners speech Pruneyard’s speech.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25 Anonymous Clown like all Techdirt's White Racist/Elitist Supporters of Discrimination by a Social Medium Platform Continues to Show Complete Blithering Legal Ignorance

I own the property on which the sidewalk outside my house is found. Yet, I cannot tell any member of the public he cannot use it.

The “right to refuse service” isn’t a constitutional argument, as far as I’m aware. It is an argument based in the concept of private ownership; that is, “You do not have the “right” to be on and/or use my property without my permission.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:26

I own the property on which the sidewalk outside my house is found. Yet, I cannot tell any member of the public he cannot use it.

Of course legal restrictions can exist, you catastrophic moron. I never said they couldn’t.

I didn’t think my generic statement of the idea of private ownership needed to explicitly list all the specific legal restraints that might exist. Clearly I was wrong to assume that my statement would be taken as a generalization. But then, you don’t seem to exhibit any actual sense of thought in your posts, instead just vomiting impotent rage.

The sidewalk thing? It’s called an easement, by the way. So I guess I’ll clarify for the infantile hateful bigot in the room (that would be you):

In a fundamentally free society, laws act as restrictions. A person is free to do whatever they like, unless a law exists that restricts certain behaviors. Thus, unless the law restricts my freedom to do so, I get to decide what can or can’t happen on my property.

In a fundamentally tyrannical society, laws act as permissions. A person is NOT free to do whatever they like, unless a law exists that permits certain behaviors. Thus, unless the law grants me the power to do so, I have no authority to decide what can or can’t happen on my property.

Guess which version of society your arguments support? Hint: It isn’t the free one.

I try really hard to go after arguments, not people. But seriously dude, Dunning and Kruger would have a field day with you. It’s rare to see someone so completely convinced that they’re right when they’re so, so, so completely clueless.

Now, go ahead and insult me, call me a racist, and then run off and hide like you always do whenever I point out how ridiculous your arguments are, because we both know that you don’t actually have anything substantial to contribute.

I mean, I’d rather talk to Chozen than you – at least he has, at times, shown some degree of civility.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The Civil Rights Act is an exception to the freedom of association the same way defamation laws are an exception to the freedom of speech. There is a limited exception with regards to employers and to places of public accommodation with regards to discrimination based solely or primarily on certain immutable characteristics, of which political affiliation, viewpoint, and speech are not included. Outside of that, public utilities, and common carriers, businesses are free not to sell to someone for any or no reason at all thanks to the 1A-protected freedom of association.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

” By allowing you to use their services, a social media service has made the choice to let you associate with them”

And no reasonable person believes that. You are proving that you are unreasonable. That means you are stupid and/or mentally insane.

The very existence of the terms “Facebook post” and “Tweet” disproves your impotent projection.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

But Twitter’s? Is twitter part of that group?

No reasonable person will believe that the host of the speech is the speaker or associated with the speech. That’s Pruneyard’s first Amendment issue in a nutshell.

Morons like Mike and Stephen will argue that because village idiots form online mobs that somehow that mob is made of “reasonable” people.

I don’t deny that there are village idiots like Stephen who think that a platform hosting speech is association. Village idiots exist in every village. However, just because modern tech allows those village idiots to coalesce into a virtual mob doesn’t make them suddenly reasonable, they are still just the village idiots.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

But Twitter’s? Is twitter part of that group?

Twitters interest is in maximization the groups that use its services, and that is served by removing aggressive and trolling people who disrupt conversation held on Twitter, even when those people claim they are only expressing a political opinion. You above post is the sort of posting that will lead to eventual removal, as people report it to Twitter, because of the ad hominens you included.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

“Twitters interest is in maximization the groups that use its services, and that is served by removing aggressive and trolling people who disrupt conversation held on Twitter”

Back to what I have told Mike since day 1. That’s a statutory question not a constitutional one. No business that opens its door to the public has a constitutional right to remove patrons. They have a limited legal privilaged that may be used in accordance with the law.

This was never a constitutional argument. It was an attempt by a bunch of rich absolutists who wanted to carve out a constitutional right for them an no one else. I’m glad they lost.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Any club like business, and social media is club like, can remove membership from anybody who breaks their rules, i.e TOS. Also, any business can refuse to serve someone who has abused or assaulted other customers or staff, and if they have someone capable, eject such a person using the minimum force necessary..

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

First its not a “club” a “club” has a distinct legal definition. Furthermore there is what’s called the “threshold test” which exists because calling things “clubs” isn’t exactly a new idea. “Clubs” is what white racist mother fuckers tried after the civil rights acts were passed and it didn’t fly then Daniels 1967.

How does it feel to be such an ignorant dipshit that you make the same arguments racist mother fuckers made in the 60s, you fucking piece of shit?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17 Come at me bro

A ToS is a contract you fucking moron.”

i’ll just leave this here for you Celeriac.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_service

Please note if you click on the hyperlink for legal agreement it takes you to the page called “Contracts”

I eagerly await your apology for being so wrong it took me literally seconds to disprove you.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Most companies’ interest is the maximization of their profits, but as members of society, they also have social obligations to align with the foundational values of those societies. So even if Twitter were to lose some users because of hosting all opinions instead of censoring some, it should nevertheless do that because one of the foundational values of its host society is freedom of speech.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

as members of society, they also have social obligations to align with the foundational values of those societies

And one of the foundational values of the United States, as outlined in its founding documents, is “all men are created equal”. To host speech that demeans and denigrates that ideal is an insult towards those who believe it.

No one should be forced to host speech like your transphobic bullshit⁠—not by law, threat, or emotional blackmail. If you want to spread that speech, find a site that will carry it willingly or make your own site. Stop trying to do this “you have a moral obligation to let me spit in the face of trans people” shit because nobody here (except you and the troll brigade) believes in it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No reasonable person will believe that the host of the speech is the speaker or associated with the speech.

Then why do Republicans suddenly distance themselves and act all “Oh I didn’t know who that was” when someone asks them why Nick Fuentes spoke at their rally, if there isn’t a question of association/endorsement?

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You aren’t associating with them you fucking idiot! No reasonable person would consider it an association. That you do is just proof that you are unreasonable, stupid, and/or insane.

So all the criticism social media gets for not taking down some types of content, does that not affect the public image of that social media company? You know, they get associated with that content in peoples mind?

It’s unreasonable to believe that a company and its image are totally unaffected by the content they carry. Anyone who says otherwise have no fucking clue how the world actually works.

The courts have ruled multiple times that no reasonable person would consider it your speech or your association. That you do consider it as such is prima fascia that you are unreasonable.

I would love it for you to provide citations for these court cases. My money is on you not understanding the context of the rulings.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“It’s unreasonable to believe that a company and its image are totally unaffected by the content they carry. Anyone who says otherwise have no fucking clue how the world actually works.”

That there are unreasonable people like you who go “reeee deplatform” doesn’t make you reasonable. All the internet has done is allow the village assholes to congregate. You are still a small minority you just think you are large because you congregate to scream at people. No reasonable person ever considered Trumps tweets to be twitters speech or association.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Those companies nevertheless should defend the freedom of speech of their users

Yes or no: If a social media service bans transphobic speech because the higher-ups know leaving it be would drive off a significant amount of users (trans or not), isn’t that service defending the freedom of speech of those users by letting them speak without being harassed into digital oblivion, albeit at the (low) cost of pissing off a smaller segment of the userbase?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Whether they have a legal right in fact depends on what the law is

And the law says the government can’t force Twitter to host or not host certain kinds of legally protected speech. Even if no one associates Twitter with the speech of a given user, Twitter still has the right to terminate its association with that user because of that user’s speech. The same goes for Facebook, Gab, Truth Social, 4chan, and every other interactive web service.

No one has yet cited a law or legal precedent that says “the government can make Twitter host [x]”, where [x] is a given type of speech (e.g., racial slurs). If you have that citation, give it up. If not, shut the fuck up TERF.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“the government can make Twitter host [x]”

The government has said private actors can be forced to host X time and time again. There does not need to be and there should not be some separate ruling for Twitter. The insistence that Twitter needs a specific legal ruling is a fundamental violation of the rule of law. You are saying that there needs to be a separate set of rules for BigTech.

Your argument is fundamentally evil.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Hosting has no legal meaning

In the context of an obvious common carrier like AT&T, Blogger, WordPress, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, Amazon Whole Foods, A Medium Corp, The Harvard Crimson, The Stanford Daily, etc., the operative legal term is bailment.

Because a meathead white racist/elitist genocide-supporting dummy is probably incapable of doing a simple online search, I provide a link: bailment.

A ‘bailment’ is defined as a non-ownership transfer of possession. Under English common law, the right to possess a thing is separate and distinct from owning the thing. Interestingly, as a result of this distinction, in some jurisdictions, an owner of an object can steal their own property. In context, an owner who lends someone else an article, then secretly takes it back, can be stealing.

When a bailment is created, the article is said to have been ‘bailed’. One who delivers the article is the bailor. One who receives a ‘bailed’ article is the bailee.

See e.g., Mack v. Davidson 391 N.Y.S.2d 497 (1977).

I know it is completely unfair both to an imbecile like Stephen T. Stone and also to a brainless anomaly like Anonymous Clown that after 40+ years of dealing with common carriage issues, I know and understand the basic concepts and terminology of common carriage law.

A common carrier has no First Amendment right or any other right

  1. to deny a customer common carriage or
  2. to discriminate against him.

Common carriage law is the oldest anti-discrimination law on the books. Common carriage law is the root of all anti-discrimination law that comes afterward.

When an ignorant clown denies that a social medium platform is a message common carrier of digital personal literary property and claims that the social medium platform has the right to discriminate, he proves himself to be among the lowest and most disgusting vermin on the planet.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The government has said private actors can be forced to host X time and time again.

It has not. It has said so in some circumstances that were explicitly stated to be narrow exceptions to the general rule that private actors cannot be forced to host anything, but it is not the rule that private actors can generally be forced to host X with some exceptions.

First, common carriers and public utilities generally cannot refuse a paying customer outside of limited circumstances. These are narrow categories which social media does not fit into. (Also, common carriers are only required to deliver X, not host it.)

Second, employers and places of public accommodation cannot discriminate against (potential or current) employees or customers, respectively, solely or primarily on the basis of certain immutable characteristics, but not all characteristics are not allowed to be discriminated against. Political affiliation, viewpoint, and speech are not among the protected classes for this exception and are not like those classes.

Third, in the specific situation of broadcast TV over spectrum, the government can include must-carry provisions (or prohibit content) due to the limitations of that particular medium where two signals cannot be sent on the same or overlapping frequencies within a certain area at the same time without causing major problems, and the amount of frequencies available is strictly limited, so what gets to go on what spectrum can be regulated by the government. This has been explicitly stated to not apply to the internet or to websites by the SC, so it is not applicable to social media.

Finally, in the specific case of shopping malls, specifically in areas like the food court where people can gather without blocking the way of any store, entrance/exit, or other facility, people can’t be kicked out for the content of their speech (like passing out pamphlets) so long as it is not disruptive. Despite many opportunities to do so, the Supreme Court has declined to extend that exception to any other situation at all, and exceptions to rights to free speech, free press, and free association are presumptively narrow as a general rule. Social media has nothing in common with mall food courts, so there is no reason at all to extend that exception to social media given that it has always been stated to only apply to that limited situation and nowhere else.

In every other case, the courts have explicitly ruled time and time again that private companies cannot be forced to host content they don’t want to.

There does not need to be and there should not be some separate ruling for Twitter.

Not for Twitter, specifically, per se, but for services or businesses like Twitter, yes, there absolutely does need to be a separate ruling on that. That is how 1A jurisprudence works: the exceptions are narrow and (relatively) well-defined, and absent an explicit ruling to the contrary, the presumptions is that private entities cannot be restricted from exercising their 1A rights as they wish by or consistent with the 1A. This includes free speech and free association, which collectively include the right for private entities to choose not to do business or otherwise associate with anyone they don’t want to for any or no reason and the right to not host or publish (as opposed to merely transmit to a single location) speech they don’t want to for any reason. There are exceptions, but the Supreme Court has consistently said that these are limited exceptions that should not be expanded beyond their terms absent specific rulings to the contrary.

The insistence that Twitter needs a specific legal ruling is a fundamental violation of the rule of law.

No, that’s just how arguments work. You made the claim, so prove it.

Also, again, not Twitter, specifically. Any social media site will do.

You are saying that there needs to be a separate set of rules for BigTech.

This is a strawman argument and an example of otherwording. That is not what they said.

Your argument is fundamentally evil.

The argument that, in order to convince someone that the law is what you say it is, you must present evidence in the form of binding case law that is relevant, on-point, and says what you claim it says, is not fundamentally evil; that is just how arguments work. It’s also how 1A jurisprudence works.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 With New Tech We Look for Applicable Old Tech Precedent

bhull242, the white racist refrigerator repairman, pontificates.

First, common carriers and public utilities generally cannot refuse a paying customer outside of limited circumstances. These are narrow categories which social media does not fit into. (Also, common carriers are only required to deliver X, not host it.)

Amendment IX gives the public the Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage. A common carrier has no right to refuse common carriage to a customer except for special circumstances of unfitness or lack of space.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

47 U.S. Code § 230(c)(2)(A) identifies certain types of digital personal literary property that are unfit in the context of the Internet– ejusdem generis applies. U.S. v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 130 S. Ct. 1577, 176 L. Ed. 2D 435 (2010) provides guidance with respect to restrictions that a message common carrier (not just a social medium platform) may apply to user speech or digital personal literary property, for which a user seeks common carriage.

Hosting is a meaningless term in law. A common carrier must hold property in bailment if necessary while the property is on its way to delivery by common carriage.

The FCC has determined the email service is a form of common carriage but has declined to carry. Despite the pontificating of the white racist refrigerator repairman, a social medium platform is sufficiently similar to an email service that the social medium platform must provide common carriage.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

a social medium platform is sufficiently similar to an email service that the social medium platform must provide common carriage

Quick question, dipshit: If we assume this is true (which it isn’t), what could the government do if Twitter⁠—a privately owned business⁠—decided to shut down right now instead of being a “common carrier”? Because unless you’re a fucking communist, I doubt “the government could force Twitter to stay open” is an answer you’re prepared to give⁠—but it’s also the only answer you can give if you truly, sincerely, genuinely believe Twitter should be forced to host all legal speech.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

bhull242, the white racist refrigerator repairman, […]

You still have offered zero attempts to support the accusation that I am a racist, and I dispute that assertion. Also, while I understand the general principle of how refrigerators work, I couldn’t repair one even if my life depended on it. I work in software with some electronics. I am white, not that that’s relevant.

This is also known as “poisoning the well”, which is an informal fallacy. Even if true, there is no rational reason to mention my (allegedly) being a refrigerator repairman or racist because they have nothing to do with my arguments and claims.

Amendment IX gives the public the Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage.

No, it does not. Show me the case law that says that, because neither “non-discriminatory” nor “common carriage” nor any synonyms to either term appear anywhere in the text.

bhull242 […] pontificates.

First, common carriers and public utilities generally cannot refuse a paying customer outside of limited circumstances. These are narrow categories which social media does not fit into. (Also, common carriers are only required to deliver X, not host it.)

A common carrier has no right to refuse common carriage to a customer except for special circumstances of unfitness or lack of space.

This is true and entirely consistent with what I said.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

Also true and consistent with what I said. Note that a social media platform doesn’t do any of that.

47 U.S. Code § 230(c)(2)(A) identifies certain types of digital personal literary property that are unfit in the context of the Internet– ejusdem generis applies. U.S. v. Stevens, 559 U.S. 460, 130 S. Ct. 1577, 176 L. Ed. 2D 435 (2010) provides guidance with respect to restrictions that a message common carrier (not just a social medium platform) may apply to user speech or digital personal literary property, for which a user seeks common carriage.

A social media platform doesn’t offer common carriage of used speech or digital personal literary property or anything else. It offers publication services to the public at no cost. These are not the same thing.

Hosting is a meaningless term in law.

Completely and utterly false.

A common carrier must hold property in bailment if necessary while the property is on its way to delivery by common carriage.

And a social media platform holds that property not in bailment permanently by design unless either the person who posted it or the platform decides to delete it; they do not hold it in bailment while the property is on its way to delivery.

The FCC has determined the email service is a form of common carriage but has declined to carry.

So what? And what do you mean by “declined to carry”?

[A] social medium platform is sufficiently similar to an email service that the social medium platform must provide common carriage.

A social media platform is entirely dissimilar from an email service; the only similarities are that both are interactive computer services. (After all, even email is not necessarily a form of public accommodation, and it also isn’t solely used via internet.) You have not demonstrated any material similarities between the two.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“You thought that the large generic speech platforms could engage in viewpoint-based censorship just because the 1st Amendment allows it”

So, you’re opposed to the 1st Amendment?

“actions have consequences”

Such as… not being allowed to use someone else’s property after you violate their T&Cs for using it?

“people have had enough of being told what they’re allowed to say”

Children will be children, but nothing says you have the right to use the property of people who don’t want you to use it.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Maybe this law will fail on constitutional grounds, but maybe the next one won’t.

If the next law also attempts to control what content a private entity can or cannot host, it too will fail. The government shouldn’t be in the business of making Walmart sell or refuse to carry certain books, and it sure as shit shouldn’t be in the business of making Twitter host or not host certain kinds of speech.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

They'll never have the guts to take it but it is there

Oh there’s a simple enough solution it would just require social media to have the spine and foresight to take the hit to their profits and stand up to the backlash by honestly answering why they did what they did rather than the usual cowardice about how the people attacking moderation are doing so in good faith.

‘If you’re from Texas we’re sorry to inform you but the recently passed state law makes it too much of a hassle to operate and provide service to you. As such for the foreseeable future we will no longer offer our platform to anyone living in Texas, and any users from that state will have their accounts suspended as soon as they are discovered. If you don’t like this take it up with your lawmakers, a list of which along with their contact details will be shown below.’

Christenson says:

Re: Re: Re: Shroedinger's social media

As it is, my experience of social media feeds is lossy — I can’t necessarily find all the tweets in my feed, and when I come back later, they have changed anyway.

But I could see a Texas version and a non-texas version, that works as follows:
If you are in Texas, you get all the unmoderated garbage.
But, there’s a checkbox on the page that says you agree that you are not in Texas or you agree to the site making a good faith effort to remove objectionable content and references thereto and waive all SB20 requirements.
If you agree, then you get the moderated version.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Yep very well worded act.

Very well worded government authoritarianism, I guess.

I’ll ask you again:

Theoretical situation:

Texas proposes a law that, for some reason, McDonalds doesn’t like. McDonalds says that if that law passes, it will close all of its Texas stores. Texas adds a provision to the law that makes it illegal for all fast food chains to close their Texas stores, and passes the law.

Does Texas have the power to do this? If they do, that’s both silly and scary at the same time. If they don’t, then why would they have the power to do something similar to Twitter?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Funny

Funny Mike’s misfits run around arguing how BigTech isn’t like brick and mortar so those rules don’t apply to them and then you turn around and make brick and mortar example. BigTech isn’t being denied freedom of movement like your brick and mortar example. You cant give an actual physical reason why they cant serve Texans. The law is simply denying BigTech the privilaged to refuse service based on state of origin. This already exists for national origin so you cant make the argument that you have some constitutional right to discriminate against Texans anymore than a business has a constitutional right to discriminate against Israelis.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You didn’t actually answer the question.

You cant give an actual physical reason why they cant serve Texans.

I never said anything about not serving Texans. There’s a difference between “I don’t do business in Texas” and “I won’t serve Texans.”

The law is simply denying BigTech the privilaged to refuse service based on state of origin.

No, the law is forcing “BigTech” to do business in that state, and be subject to that state’s laws.

If I choose not to make my business available in Texas, because the laws of Texas are inhospitable to my business, why is that a problem?

Does a government have the power to force a private party to do business in and be subject to the laws of its jurisdiction, if the business chooses not to have a presence within that jurisdiction?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 The Issue of Corporate Boycott of a State -- an Interesting Legal Question

Intent might determine lawfulness.

If the decision not to conduct business is purely a business decision and not some form of retaliation, there might be no problem. If there is collaboration in retaliation, there is probably unlawful restraint of trade or unfair trade practises in general.

If the decision is not purely a business decision, there is probably a violation according to 42 U.S. Code § 1981 – Equal rights under the law. A customer in Texas must have the same contract rights that a white in any other state has.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Read the Statute, Dummy!

Stephen T. Stone and Anonymous Clown are beyond ignorant and stupid.

42 U.S. Code § 1981 – Equal rights under the law

(a) Statement of equal rights

All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.

(b) “Make and enforce contracts” defined

For purposes of this section, the term “make and enforce contracts” includes the making, performance, modification, and termination of contracts, and the enjoyment of all benefits, privileges, terms, and conditions of the contractual relationship.

(c) Protection against impairment

The rights protected by this section are protected against impairment by nongovernmental discrimination and impairment under color of State law.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 The Attention of Stephen T. Stone Wanes Before He Can Complete a Futile Effort to Grasp a Complex Idea

The attention of Stephen T. Stone wanes before he can complete the reading of a sentence that consists of more than a simple noun subject that is followed by a simple verbal predicate, which contains a simple noun object.

I described how a Court overcomes the explicit race consciousness of 42 U.S. Code § 1981, but a clueless nitwit like Stephen T. Stone or like Anonymous Clown is too stupid to understand.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

A customer in Texas must have the same contract rights that a white in any other state has.

I don’t see how a business choosing to exit (or refusing to enter) a market for any reason creates an equal rights violation. Again, there’s a difference between “I don’t do business in Texas” and “I won’t serve Texans.”

There are no In-N-Out Burger stores in Chicago. If I’m in Chicago and I want a Double Double, has In-N-Out violated equal rights law by not having any stores there so that I can buy a Double Double just like someone in Arizona can? Does the government of Chicago have the power to legally force In-N-Out to open a store in that city?

If you believe a government cannot force In-N-Out to do business in their jurisdiction, then why would it be able to force a website to do so? If you believe it can, do you also think it should be able to, and if so, why?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Intent is Everything

Anonymous Clown is too stupid to understand commercial law.

I don’t see how a business choosing to exit (or refusing to enter) a market for any reason creates an equal rights violation. Again, there’s a difference between “I don’t do business in Texas” and “I won’t serve Texans.”

It’s easy for an exit to constitute a civil violation.

The exit might be tantamount to restraint of trade.

The exit might be part of collusion to divide a market into separate regional monopolies.

The list of possible civil or criminal violations in an exit from a state is effectively endless.

I know Latin is beyond the brain-absent, but I must quote Edward Coke.

actus non facit reum nisi men sit rea

One hires a top litigator to argue the unlawfulness of an act in combination with intent.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

The exit might be tantamount to restraint of trade.

The exit might be part of collusion to divide a market into separate regional monopolies.

You argued that an exit could be an equal rights violation. These examples aren’t equal rights violations; they are completely different unlawful acts, and you’re avoiding the question.

This principle explains how murder, manslaughter, and self-defense can be distinguished.

Your premise begins with an improper act (killing someone), and then intent is used to determine if there was an improper purpose. If there was no improper purpose (self-defense) then the act itself is no longer deemed improper.

My premise does not begin with an improper act, nor an improper purpose. Do you have a response to my actual question, or will you continue to answer questions I didn’t ask?

If I choose not to make my business available in Texas, because the laws of Texas are inhospitable to my business, why is that a problem?

Does a government have the power to force a private party to do business in and be subject to the laws of its jurisdiction, if the private party chooses not to have a presence within that jurisdiction?

Anonymous Coward says:

If you can’t follow the law because it’s that impossible to follow, then it pains me to say it, but the law was made to be broken.

Texas legislators clearly want to make social media companies criminals for simply existing and exercising their 1A rights.

It’s also likely they also want to seize these companies’ assets too amd worse. Toss the board amd employees into jail, harass minorities, the bloody works.

And they’ll go further than the US in WW2.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Ah Mike

Ah pay attention to whats going on with Russia Gate. The small fish get thrown to the wolves to be made examples of. I doubt anything will happen to Zuckerberg etc. it will be small fish like paid consultants who run a blog and are famous for some phrase they came up with in the 2000s.

Those are the kind of people who will be thrown to the wolves.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Texas is Recruiting Tech Companies

They have this silly law, and it may impede the effort.

However, at least until recently, Texas was trying to recruit tech companies to move into the state. They offer relatively low taxes and other corporation-friendly incentives. They even have a web site! You canm probably google up Texas Economic Development Corporation if you get curious.

Perhaps this new law will offer just enough additional reason to stay out of Texas.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

… I’m not seeing it, I mean what possible reason could a law prohibiting moderation such that any online platform under their legal jurisdiction can and will be sued for trying to keep their property from being overrun by the sort of people that no-one wants to be around keep tech companies from moving to their state and therefore into said legal jurisdiction?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

I Wield the Truth Like a Sword

[So does my wife, but she is much more kind-hearted than I am. She cringes when I assert that I would volunteer to give the jab to a Zio relative, who was sentenced to death for his genocidal crime.]

Nazi, Zio, or Confederate are all the same to me.

Because a depraved and evil Zio like Stephen T. Stone fears the truth and the law, he supports abridgment of speech by a social medium platform, which as a message common carrier has no first amendment right to refuse common carriage of digital personal literary property.

The Zio leadership has realized since Dec 1946 that open discussion of Zio crime would inevitably lead to the arrest and trial of every Zio for the international capital crime of genocide.

In the US federal criminal code, genocide is explicitly defined to be a form of terrorism. Material support of either Zio ideology or of the State of Israel constitutes material support to terrorists.

Every Zio under US jurisdiction must be arrested

  1. to be tried for genocide or material support to terrorists,
  2. almost certainly to be convicted,
  3. to be sentenced either to a long prison term or to a quick jab in the arm.

All assets of every Zio individual or organization must be seized. Every Zio under US jurisdiction must die penniless and impoverished.

Every Zio works for hegemonic control of American public discourse in order to prevent the operation of US law.

There is no discretion in the enforcement of US criminal law.

Selective prosecution or selective enforcement of law tears the heart out of the US legal and political system.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re:

Heh. Nothing makes anti-Israel activists more angry than the realization that Israel does not care in the slightest what those activists think. Since the Yom Kippur War and then the second Intifada, Israel responds to Palestinian provocation with overwhelming force and retaliation, and no amount of squealing by people like you makes the slightest difference.

No one is coming to rescue the Palestinians, the Palestinians will not be allowed to move into Israel, and they’re not even going to be able to hold on to what they have without surrendering to the idea that Israel is there to stay.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

A Depraved White Racist/Elitist Dummy Rejects Constitutional Authority

The public’s right to non-discriminatory (message) common carriage was well-established at the time of the enactment of the Constitution. A message common carrier has no right (First Amendment or otherwise) to refuse common carriage.

The vile white racist/elitist dummy has probably never read the Constitution about which he babbles and drools incoherently.

Here’s the Ninth Amendment.

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Hosting is not speech. It is the temporary storage of digital personal literary property in a backend server. Hosting is the intermediate storage of merchandise, goods, or property on the way to its final destination by message common carriage.

A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

By definition, a common carrier has to serve all comers. If he wrongfully refuses to accept a consignment, he is suable in tort. Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: The Prion of Section 230 Caselaw and Judicial Spongiform Encephalitis (I)

Because the poison of perverted genocidal belief murders the mind, Stephen T. Stone can no longer be considered a sapient being.

Netchoice, L.L.C. v. Paxton, No. 21-51178 (5th Cir. 2022), September 16, 2022, is a binding legal precedent on the Fifth Circuit.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: The Prion of Section 230 Caselaw and Judicial Spongiform Encephalitis (II)

There is a circuit split between the competent appellate judges of the Fifth Circuit and the Eleventh Circuit pseudo-judges,

  1. who seem unable to read a statute from the US federal code and
  2. who ignore almost 180 years of caselaw of message common carriage of digital personal literary property.

Netchoice v. Paxton will almost certainly go to the Supreme Court and Martillo v. Twitter has a substantial probability of joining Netchoice v. Paxton before SCOTUS.

According to 28 U.S. Code § 2101(e), I can file a 2nd petition for certiorari before Judgment.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Common carrier is just a time tested regulatory framework

Neither you nor your comrade-in-arms, ThorsProvoni, have presented anything remotely close to a cogent argument for why Twitter and Facebook⁠—but somehow now Gab, Parler, Truth Social, or any other “conservative-friendly” social media service⁠—should be considered a common carrier. When y’all can do that, y’all might have a point here. Until then: Twitter isn’t a common carrier and y’all can’t force it to host y’all’s speech.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 I am not political

Any social medium platform is a common law message common carrier if it holds out carriage to the public, under uniform terms, for a fee, which can include a monetary charge, barter (e.g., collecting user info), or work for carriage (e.g., “eyes on a page”).

Implicit or explicit license to distribute digital literary property, which is held in temporary storage on a backend server by bailment, is also a fair exchange because the distribution of digital literary property brings “eyes to a page”.

Calling bailment hosting does not enable the social medium platform to violate common carriage law with impunity.

Bailment is not the speech of a social medium platform. From the standpoint of common carriage law, storing digital personal literary property in a backend server of the social medium platform hardly differs from the temporary storage of a paper letter in a satchel at a USPS sorting location or at a FedEx office until the paper letter can be delivered to its destination by common carriage.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 I am committed only to operation of law

Every Zi°nist on the planet must be arrested by operation of law for probable perpetration of the international or US federal crime of genocide so that he can be:

  1. tried,
  2. almost certainly convicted, and
  3. sentenced to a long prison term or to a short jab in the arm.

All assets of every Zi°nist individual or organization must be seized. Every Zi°nist must die penniless and impoverished.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 The Depraved and Evil Racial Supremacism of Stephen T. Stone

Genocide is a capital crime just like 1st-degree murder.

The depraved racial supremacism of the monster Stephen T. Stone demands that a Zi°nist have a license to commit a capital crime with impunity because the Zi°nist alleges Jewish ancestry.

It is not genocide to impose the maximum penalty on a Zi°nist for the capital crime of genocide because such execution of a legally correct sentence does not implicate dolus specialis of genocide.

In this communication, only Stephen T. Stone is a Nazi equivalent. I wield the sword of justice according to the scales of justice.

Under Jewish law, it is far easier to impose the death penalty for blasphemy on a depraved and evil Zi°nist than it is in international law or according to the US federal criminal code to impose the death penalty upon a Zi°nist for the crime of genocide. For this reason, I tell my Haredi relatives that it is incorrect to consider a Zi°nist to be a Jew. A Zi°nist is a depraved and evil antisemite and anti-Jew as well as a probable perpetrator of the capital crime of genocide because the Zi°nist movement has murdered Judaism by transforming Judaism into a program of genocide.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 The Congruence of a Zi°nist with a Nazi

A Nazi also laughed when it was suggested that there was something wrong with Nazi belief or with Nazi action.

Now we see clearly why a depraved and evil monster like Stephen T. Stone wants to protect and to encourage discrimination by a major social medium platform in order to guarantee that there can be no honest open discussion of Zi°nism in a major public forum.

Hatred of Zi°nism has entered the exponential growth phase throughout most of the world. When Zi°nist control of public discourse is shattered in the USA, we will see similar completely justified hatred of Zi°nism and of the Zi°nist movement increase throughout US society.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Not Nazi's

I dont consider people like Stephan and Mike nazis. But colonialists fascists? absolutely. BigTech is as close to a colonial state sponsored colonial corporation or fascist corporate that the North American Continent has seen since the days of the Trading Companies.

Gone are the ships. Today evil son’s of bitches like Mike trying and force their culture on the rest of the world through control of technology no different than the English and other European powers did 3 centuries ago.

Its a modern technological colonialism. This pinprick on the globe that is silicone valley is trying to force the rest of the world to adopt their culture.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 History Lesson

Common Carrier an Evolution

ferries -> barges -> stagecoaches -> gristmills -> innkeepers -> wharves -> railroads -> grain elevators -> -> telegraph -> telephone -> radio -> television -> cable tv -> satellite

Now tell he how social media doesn’t fit into this rather eclectic group you fucking moron.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

radio -> television -> cable tv -> satellite

Are not common carriers, and are not regulated as such, but are regulated because of limited bandwidth. If they were common carriers you would be able to ask them to air your program, and so long as you met any fair conditions, they could not refuse.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 A Service May Fit into A Plurality of Legal Categories

The following

radio -> television -> cable tv -> satellite (tv and radio?)

can be regulated by common carriage law, by public utility law, or by public franchise (natural monolopy) law.

[Telephone service is regulated by all three types of law.]

All the listed services hold out common carriage of content offerings to the public according to standard terms for a fee.

None of the listed common carriers may discriminate against a segment of the public.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

radio -> television -> cable tv -> satellite (tv and radio?)

can be regulated by common carriage law, by public utility law, or by public franchise (natural monolopy) law.

No, they cannot. They can only be regulated under the principle of limited bandwidth. They are neither common carriers nor public utilities.

[Telephone service is regulated by all three types of law.]

This is true.

All the listed services hold out common carriage of content offerings to the public according to standard terms for a fee.

False. Only telephone services (and arguably satellite internet but not other satellite services) are common carriage. No form of television or radio involves common carriage. That’s literally not how they work, and they are not regulated as such. You could compare them to newspapers that operate under the limited-resource exception to the right to editorial discretion, but newspapers aren’t common carriers, and neither are TV (any kind) or radio (any kind).

None of the listed common carriers may discriminate against a segment of the public.

[citation needed] And, again, they aren’t common carriers.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Forgot a Few Technologies

Standard US Mail, bicycle common carriage, taxi or limo service (including Lyft, Uber, etc.), DoorDash (or similar common carriers), Grocery common carriage service, pneumatic mail, trucker common carriers, some escalators, some elevators, a Ferris wheel, a roller coaster (or similar amusement park rides), air common carriers, telex, pager service, email service, SMS, MMS, container ships, pony express, etc. The list is endless.

An email service differs from a social medium platform only in minor details

  1. of message switching during digital message common carriage and
  2. of front-end design.

The two types of services (email and social medium platform) can and often do use the same digital message common carriage protocols.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Anonymous Clown Should Be Studied!

How can a human being function without a cognizable brain?

ThorsProvoni Uses the Phone, mail etc, does that make ThorsProvoni a common carrier?

Neither a telephone user nor a mail user nor a user of any of the other listed services holds out carriage according to uniform terms for a standard fee.

If Anonymous Clown had a brain and had been a pre-WWII Japanese, he would have been unable to live either with the self-shame or with the self-humaniliation

  1. of his words or
  2. of being Anonymous Clown.

He would have long ago disemboweled himself — probably his only interesting self-expression that would be neither vacuous nor ridiculous.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Social media use the Internet, but that does not make them common carriers. Also, all they offer is to display and filter that which their users submit to them, when other user request a look at the contents. so their is no carriage involved in what they do. To claim that they common carriers is to claim that newspaper who published letters to the editor were common carriers, because they used common carrier services for distribution.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 A Social Medium Platform Does Not Display Anything

A social medium platform transfers a message from its backend database server, which holds the message in bailment, by means of message common carriage of digital personal literary property to a user computing device, which displays the message on the display of the user’s computing device.

A social medium platform, which is without doubt a message common carrier of digital person literary property, may not deny common carriage to any user.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

A social medium platform transfers a message from its backend database server, which holds the message in bailment, by means of message common carriage of digital personal literary property to a user computing device

It transfers packets to its outgoing ISP, and has nothing to do with it from there on. The ISP is the carrier, not the social media platform.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

True – If social media was a common carrier, using someone else’s carrier infrastructure wouldn’t stop it from being one.

But it’s not a common carrier. Social media performs no transportation; the message is saved on the server and remains there indefinitely. People use common carriage (ISPs) to visit those servers and see the messages. The message isn’t transported to them; they are transported to the message.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

“But it’s not a common carrier. Social media performs no transportation; ”

That is not a requirement look at the list of things considered common carriers.

Does a gristmill provide “transportation” shut the fuck up. You’ve been listening to that MBA dipshit Mike for too long. Moron knows fuck all about what he is talking about.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I didn’t go with your list, because I can’t trust your accuracy.

I went with this definition:

A common carrier is a person or a commercial enterprise that transports passengers or goods for a fee and establishes that their service is open to the general public. Typical examples of common carriers include, a shipowner, railroad, airline, taxi service, etc.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

“A common carrier is a person or a commercial enterprise that transports passengers or goods for a fee and establishes that their service is open to the general public. Typical examples of common carriers include, a shipowner, railroad, airline, taxi service, etc.”

Nope plenty of things regulated as common carriers over the century that do not meet that definition.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14 Nash has joined the really stupid club!

Nasch is a clueless user-loser that does not understand Internet technology. The social medium platform is at both ends of the transfer because the social medium platform supplies the single-page application or mobile app that runs on the user computer device.

It is not necessary for the responsible common carrier to be at both the origination point and also the destination point.

Common carriage law is so simple that I must believe either a Tech Dirt user-loser white racist-elitist, who supports discrimination by a social medium platform, either is too stupid for words or is feigning not to understand.

In the old pre-AT&T breakup days, I received local (but end-to-end) common carriage service (regulated by my state Massachusetts with state common-law common carriage law) to call a telephone subscriber in California from a local RBOC (a Regional Bell Operating Company). The RBOC handed the call off to the AT&T network

  1. which was regulated by federal statutory interstate telecommunications common carriage law and
  2. which used the remote California RBOC, which was regulated by California state common-law common carriage law and public utility law.

My common carrier was the Massachusetts RBOC,

  1. which I paid for the end-to-end common carriage and
  2. which was completely responsible for the call from my perspective.

AT&T was common carrier to my local RBOC, and the remote California RBOC was common carrier to AT&T. The Massachusetts common carrier paid AT&T, which paid the California RBOC.

Massachusetts General Law c. 159 s. 1 captures these relationships. AT&T and the California RBOC were paid under B-B settlements according to FCC and state regulated tariffing.

MGL c. 159 (COMMON CARRIERS) s. 1

Every common carrier of merchandise or other property shall receive, transport and forward all property offered for such purposes by other such carriers as promptly, faithfully and impartially, at as low rates of charge, and in a manner and on terms and conditions as favorable to the carrier offering such property, as he on the same day and at the same place receives, forwards and transports, in the ordinary course of business, property of a like description offered by persons other than such carriers. Such carrier shall not discriminate against any particular person or subject him to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage. The supreme judicial or superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce this section.

I wrote the doubled quoted passage below — I understand common carriage.

Nash, who does not have the brains to understand common carriage, wrote the last quoted passage.

A social medium platform transfers a message from its backend database server, which holds the message in bailment, by means of message common carriage of digital personal literary property to a user computing device

Stupid idiot Nasch wrote.

It transfers packets to its outgoing ISP, and has nothing to do with it from there on. The ISP is the carrier, not the social media platform.

The ISP is a secondary common carrier, which performs common carriage for the primary common carrier (the social medium platform), which by law performs end-to-end common carriage for the end user, who is the social medium user.

Nasch is beyond ignorance and cluelessness.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16 SCOTUS Did Not Tell Me to Fuck Off the First Time!

User-loser white racist-elitist Stephen T. Stone has masturbatory fantasies!

The first time the case was not ready for review. It’s closer now, and there are three-to-five related cases headed to SCOTUS.

The odds are way against a depraved white racist elitist (like brainless dickless Stephen T. Stone, who uses electro-stimulation instead of his hand) and his favorite racist discriminatory social medium platform. A competent attorney would recommend to a social medium platform immediately

  1. to cease removing a user and his content,
  2. to stop shadow-banning, and
  3. to end algorithmic recommendations

in order to reduce legal exposure.

I am already talking with the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ with respect to a District Court complaint that accuses the class of social medium platforms of civil rights discrimination against me since July 2, 2021.

It’s truly wonderful when the rules allow parallel litigation for the good guys (anti-racists) to pile an endless stream of litigation on a depraved racist individual or corporation.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Stephen T. Stone has masturbatory fantasies!

I’m not letting you fuck me no matter how much you think about my dick.

The first time the case was not ready for review.

If you had as strong a case as you claim to have, such that SCOTUS has absolutely no choice but to rule in your favor, you would’ve been granted cert the first time around instead of being told “fuck off” in legalese.

A competent attorney would recommend to a social medium platform immediately to cease removing a user and his content,[ ]stop shadow-banning, and[ ]end algorithmic recommendations in order to reduce legal exposure.

If anything, making that happen would likely do more harm to the service⁠ by making the service unpalatable for all but the worst people⁠—which, in turn, would cause a massive drop off in activity as word gets around that the service is harboring way too many assholes. Which, hey, that’s a great strategy for metaphorically taking an axe to a service like Twitter. But if your goal is to ensure the most speech possible is both welcomed and encouraged, letting that service become another 4chan (or worse) is a godawful strategy.

I am already talking with the Civil Rights Division of the DOJ

And you say I have masturbatory fantasies… 🙄

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 Can a Shit-for-Brains Humaniform Slug like Stephen T. Stone Find Another Humaniform Slug That Would Want to Mate With Him?

I’d call depraved white racist Stephen T. Stone pond scum, but it would be an insult to pond scum.

Stephen T. Stone has masturbatory fantasies!

I’m not letting you fuck me no matter how much you think about my dick.

I doubt even another humaniform would have an interest in mating with a depraved white racist genocide-supporting shit-for-brains humaniform slug like Stephen T. Stone. Thus he may not have undergone apophallation and still has a penis.

The first time the case was not ready for review.

If you had as strong a case as you claim to have, such that SCOTUS has absolutely no choice but to rule in your favor, you would’ve been granted cert the first time around instead of being told “fuck off” in legalese.

Denial of cert for a petition for writ of certiorari before judgment is hardly legalese for “fuck off”.

SCOTUS only grants cert in such cases under exceptional circumstances. Cert before judgment is granted typically:

  1. in national election cases, which must be adjudicated under a deadline,
  2. when a case can be paired with a case already granted cert, and
  3. in a case, which has national importance and requires immediate attention.

SCOTUS prefers cases, in which a sufficient legal record has been created so that SCOTUS can review and provide guidance to lower courts. I am a procedural specialist. I can make another petition for cert and then apply for a direct appeal. I am developing the legal record for the direct appeal.

A competent attorney would recommend to a social medium platform immediately to cease removing a user and his content,[ ]stop shadow-banning, and[ ]end algorithmic recommendations in order to reduce legal exposure.

If anything, making that happen would likely do more harm to the service⁠ by making the service unpalatable for all but the worst people⁠—which, in turn, would cause a massive drop off in activity as word gets around that the service is harboring way too many assholes. Which, hey, that’s a great strategy for metaphorically taking an axe to a service like Twitter. But if your goal is to ensure the most speech possible is both welcomed and encouraged, letting that service become another 4chan (or worse) is a godawful strategy.

The white racist babbles irrelevancies above.

A social medium platform must obey the law. A social medium platform is an obvious message common carrier of digital personal literary property. There is no speech hosting with a social medium platform just as there is no speech hosting with an email service. The backends and protocols used are practically identical. A social medium front-end and an email front-end can easily be interchanged. In both cases (a social medium platform and an email service), each service only provides bailment of digital personal literary property on a backend server.

An email service provides message common carriage. A social medium platform provides message common carriage. The public has a Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage (9th Amendment). Common carriage law is the origin of anti-discrimination law. Penalty for violation of common carriage law should be and often is draconian.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 A Higher Court Tries to Extract General Principles to Create Legal Doctrine

A higher Court does not worry about technological details although it wants them to have been properly explained before the trial Court.

Yet, if we split technology hairs, a social medium platform provides a service, which is closer to telex than telegraphy.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

The Pellucid Common Law Definition of Common Carriage

Every social medium platform is a message common carrier of digital personal literary property as long as it holds out message carriage to the public under uniform terms for a fee.

The service provided by a social medium platform hardly differs from the common carriage service provided by telegraph or by telex. The only major difference is a whizzier interface, which the social medium platform downloads to the end user computing device.

A social medium platform provides

  1. store-and-forward message switching and
  2. temporary storage (bailment or hosting) of a message (digital personal literary property) within a backend server on its way to delivery to its destination by digital message common carriage. The operations of store-and-forward message switching and temporary storage of a message are both traditional operations of message common carriage.

Bailment or hosting of digital personal literary property is not the speech of the social medium platform, and the social medium platform has neither editorial discretion nor distributor discretion with respect to bailment or to hosting except in the mind of a complete legal ignoramus like a Tech Dirt supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform.

If a social medium platform wishes to escape the obligations that common carriage law imposes on the social medium platform, the social medium platform need only

  1. cease to monetize eyes on a page and
  2. cease trading in the information that it collects from a user in exchange for message common carriage service.

In other words, as long as a social medium platform makes money from common carriage, it is legally and constitutionally obligated to obey the law of common carriage.

The Ninth Amendment gives the public the Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage. A common carrier has no right to refuse common carriage to a customer except for some very special circumstances.

  • A common carrier is a person who holds himself out as willing to serve any shipper who offers him a reasonable fee to transport the kinds of goods he professes to carry to a place he professes to serve, provided they were not unfit and his conveyance was not already full. See Lovett v. Hobbs, 2 Show. K.B. 127, 89 Eng. Rep. 836 (K.B. 1680); Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).
  • By definition, a common carrier has to serve all comers. If he wrongfully refuses to accept a consignment, he is suable in tort. Jackson v. Rogers, 2 Show. K.B. 327, 89 Eng. Rep. 968 (K.B. 1683).

Denial of common carriage is a self-evidencing violation and must be punished with draconian penalties because common carriage law is the root and beginning of anti-discrimination law, without which modern civil society does not function.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

A social medium platform provides
store-and-forward message switching and
temporary storage (bailment or hosting) of a message (digital personal literary property) within a backend server on its way to delivery to its destination by digital message common carriage. The operations of store-and-forward message switching and temporary storage of a message are both traditional operations of message common carriage.

Wrong in that Social media perform no switching or routing of messages, it is a passive message board. To perform the forward part you would have to tell it who or where to deliver your message.

Social media provides persistent hosting, nor transient hosting because they do not delete all copies of a message on handover.

That is post this message on your board, and give me a copy of your board is nothing like take this message and deliver to the addressee. Also, they are not open to anyone, but rather provide a service to those people who sign up for service, and are closer to a club that a common carrier.

Also, through the various threads on this site you have more than adequately demonstrated why you are banned from some social media sites in that you fall back to childish name calling whenever it looks like you might be doing less that convincing other of the correctness of your view point.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Anonymous Clown Confuses Virtual Reality with Material Reality

Hosting is bailment. It is not speech in any way that a Court understands speech.

I am not convinced of the permanence of hosting (bailment) of literary property by a social medium platform. Yahoo!Groups launched on January 30, 2001. Yahoo!Groups dissolved on December 15, 2020. Yahoo!Groups only provided transient bailment. Neither permanence nor transience of bailment is relevant to the issues of the legal controversy. I only mentioned transience for completeness and because transience is an important aspect of certain tech caselaw.

When Anonymous Clown asserts the following, he shows both technological cluelessness and also legal ignorance.

Wrong in that Social media perform no switching or routing of messages, it is a passive message board. To perform the forward part you would have to tell it who or where to deliver your message.

I said nothing about routing. Every social medium platform performs store-and-forward switching of a message among users.

Anonymous Clown seems to believe that the message arrives at the computing device of a destination user by magic.

There is nothing passive about the backend of a social medium platform. It betrays more tech cluelessness when Anonymous Clown imputes passivity.

Neither mass mailing common carriage nor mass announcement common carriage requires a specific destination address.

The common law legal definition of common carriage makes no reference to a specific destination address.

Question: Does a notice board accessible to passing members of the public — by being at the entrance of a supermarket for example — offer a common carriage service? If not, how does Twitter differ from that in function, other than by being a service attached to a network that offers public access?

Answer: The described public notice board is a material board to which a member affixes a material message. The material board provides neither message switching nor message common carriage. Twitter provides store-and-forward message switching as well as message common carriage among users. Twitter temporarily stores a message in a backend database system (hosting) while the message is on the way to an end-user by message common carriage.

The question confuses the frontend model (a pure concept or abstract idea†) with a material notice board. The frontend model makes it easier for an end user to interact with Twitter’s system.

In other words, Twitter’s system has no similarity whatsoever to the material notice board and the question shows no comprehension of Internet technology whatsoever.

[The terminology of full-stack software engineering is somewhat confusing. A software engineer generally uses the Model-View-Controller design pattern to design a web or cloud service. The end user invokes a browser on his end host (a laptop or mobile computing device) to access the service. A single-page application is frontend social medium platform software that runs in a web browser to access the service of the social medium platform. A mobile device typically runs a mobile app (provided by the social medium platform) to access the service, which the social medium platform’s backend provides.]

Note

† Abstract idea in this context has some similarities to the abstract idea exception to patent eligibility.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

You keep on failing to distinguish between the network, and services attached to that network. Twitter in nor more a common carrier than a mail order catalogue that relies on a common carrier, like the postal system, to receive and fulfill orders.

As for the idea you can have a switch without routing, well it only applies to power and mode switches etc, those that initiate a function in a system. Switching messages always involves routing.

You are twisting the law, and technology definitions for a personal goal, that of forcing your way back onto a platform, is that because you want to force people to listen to you, or is it because that is where the people you want to attack congregate?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Was Anonymous Clown born as stupid and as ignorant as he seems or does he work at it?

Like a brain-damaged chimpanzee, Anonymous Clown babbles and drools the following.

As for the idea you can have a switch without routing, well it only applies to power and mode switches etc, those that initiate a function in a system. Switching messages always involves routing.

The first generation of Ethernet bridges/LAN switches only switched between ports and did address learning and packet-filtering. Until Radia Perlman introduced the Spanning Tree Protocol Ethernet bridges/LAN Switches implemented no path selection that could be equated to a form of routing. Bridged ethernet networks had to be designed statically without loops (redundant paths) in order to function.

See Bridge circuit for interconnecting networks.

To a message switch of a social medium platform, the Internet is one giant single flat network bus with neither routing nor path selection.

I used to teach this material to freshmen at Harvard, MIT, and Yale. Anonymous Clown would not even have managed to achieve a failing grade.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Yahoo!Groups launched on January 30, 2001. Yahoo!Groups dissolved on December 15, 2020. Yahoo!Groups only provided transient bailment.

That’s over 19 years. That’s not long enough to be considered non-transient? How long is long enough? Everything eventually breaks down – is nothing permanent to you then?

Every social medium platform performs store-and-forward switching of a message among users.

No, it doesn’t. The message is fixed on the server. The message doesn’t come to me, I go to the message.

the message arrives at the computing device of a destination user by magic.

No, it doesn’t. But your description isn’t accurate either.

Neither mass mailing common carriage nor mass announcement common carriage requires a specific destination address.

True, but this does not dispute other AC’s point. Even in a mass mailing, one is still specifying where to deliver the messages (everyone in a ZIP code, everyone at somedomain.com, for example).

The described public notice board is a material board to which a member affixes a material message.

Twitter is a virtual board to which a member affixes a virtual message. The function is identical. Why does the manner of implementation make a difference?

Twitter temporarily stores a message in a backend database system (hosting) while the message is on the way to an end-user by message common carriage.

The public notice board temporarily stores a message in a backend database system (admittedly, not a very robust or organized one). The message doesn’t travel. It doesn’t travel on Twitter either.

The frontend model makes it easier for an end user to interact with Twitter’s system.

My eyes make it easier for me to interact with the public notice board.

In other words, Twitter’s system has no similarity whatsoever to the material notice board

Clearly that is inaccurate. And again, everything you describe as a function of Twitter can also be accomplished with Simple Machines Forum software, but I haven’t seen you claim that every website using that software is also a common carrier or state actor. The function is identical. Why does the manner of implementation make a difference?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 What is Transient?

I have had the argument over transience at the USPTO with respect to a number of deep science patents.

That’s over 19 years. That’s not long enough to be considered non-transient? How long is long enough? Everything eventually breaks down – is nothing permanent to you then?

One would think a decade would be long enough, but it seems not enough.

It’s possible that a victim of law school training only accepts the possibility of non-transience in the case of the rule against a perpetuity.

RULE AGAINST PERPETUITIES-ITS PART OF YOUR TRUST AND WILL. WHAT IS IT?

Introduction:

In law school, one of the most complex and seemingly arcane legal constructs is the Rule Against Perpetuities which, despite its long-standing existence, still is enforced in most states in the United States. In the past, failure to draft a document so it did not violate the Rule meant that the document was instantly void and that would hold even if all the parties to the document wanted it to remain in effect and simply did not take into account that Rule due to ignorance.

The results were at times catastrophic, with the parties basing their own planning and actions on a document that was void from the moment it was executed.

Put simply, the Rule as it pertained to trust documents provided that no trust document would be valid unless the interest must vest within twenty-one years after the death of the last beneficiary alive at the time the trust was written.

Seem simple? It is not. And note that the key is that if there is anyway the document would not vest within that time, then the trust was immediately void.

Modern interpretations and statutory work has altered this long rule and that is the subject of this article.

The Basic Law:

The common law Rule against Perpetuities is English in origin and was first promulgated centuries ago. The modern version of the Rule has been altered in California by statute. California has enacted the Uniform Statutory Rule Against Perpetuities, which supersedes the old common law rule.

Under the Uniform Rule in the California Probate Code, an interest in a trust will be invalid if either of two alternative conditions are not met. Prob C §§21200-21231.

Under the first alternative, the interest must be certain to either vest – (move from being merely an expected interest to a currently enforceable legal right) — or terminate no later than 21 years after the death of a potential beneficiary who was alive when the trust was created. Under the second alternative, the interest must actually vest or terminate within 90 years after the trust was created.

If either alternative is not achieved, the trust is void immediately.

The purpose of the rule against perpetuities was and is to prevent property interests from being tied up for generations after a trustor’s death. Thus, a provision in a trust that grants a property interest to a person who will be born several generations in the future will usually be invalid under the rule. One cannot use the trust to assure the inheritance of a relative two hundred years in the future. That is the thrust of the Rule and it is still the law.

Whether an interest granted by a trust violates the Rule against Perpetuities can be difficult to determine. But note it is still quite possible to create a trust that will last a remarkably long period of time. A trust established in 1951 by the will of newspaper publisher William Randolph Hearst is expected to last until at least 2040. See Hearst v Ganz (2006) 145 CA4th 1195, 52 CR3d 473. How?

Solutions:

The way most attorneys avoid the danger of void documents is to include the following provision, or one like it, in most California Wills or Trusts.

Section XXX Maximum Term for Trusts

Notwithstanding any contrary provisions or unless terminated earlier under other provisions of this trust, each trust created under this trust document will terminate 21 years after the death of the last to die of the descendants of my paternal and maternal grandparents who are living at the time of my death.

At that time, the remaining trust property will vest in and be distributed to the persons entitled to receive mandatory distributions of the trust’s net income, in the same proportions. If no beneficiary is entitled to mandatory distributions of net income, the remaining trust property will vest in and be distributed to the beneficiaries entitled to receive discretionary distributions of the trust’s net income, in equal shares.

The above clause or ones like it create a methodology such that under all circumstances the trust must vest within the time limit of the Rule.

Conclusion:

The original purpose of the ancient Rule was to stop the dead from controlling disposition of property to the living for unlimited amounts of time. While decades and, indeed, almost a century can pass while the decedent’s wishes are controlling, the law provides that such efforts must eventually lapse.

That the Rule has lasted over half a millennium in one form or another would seem to indicate its value to the living.

You can make directions on your property long after you are dead…but not forever. That’s the Rule.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 The Stupidity of a White Racist TechDirt User-Loser Anonymous Clown Knows Neither Metes Nor Bounds!

I doubt whether this Anonymous Clown even qualifies to be a completely ignorant shit-for-brains user-loser.

Every social medium platform performs store-and-forward switching of a message among users.

No, it doesn’t. The message is fixed on the server. The message doesn’t come to me, I go to the message.

If the message is fixed on the server, how does User-Loser ever read it? Is he magically transported to the server? When he is magically transported to the server, how does User-Loser read the message out of the database store?

Does User-Loser believe that when he watches broadcast or cablecast TV that the video was never transmitted from the broadcast or cablecast origin.

Why does he believe reading messages from a social medium platform on his computing device differs substantially from watching broadcast or cablecast video?

the message arrives at the computing device of a destination user by magic.

No, it doesn’t. But your description isn’t accurate either.

User-Loser must go back to pre-K. User-Loser has much material on which he must catch up.

I know exactly how web and cloud services work. I designed or wrote some of the first such services.

Neither mass mailing common carriage nor mass announcement common carriage requires a specific destination address.

True, but this does not dispute other AC’s point. Even in a mass mailing, one is still specifying where to deliver the messages (everyone in a ZIP code, everyone at somedomain.com, for example).

The legal definition of common carriage says nothing about destination address.

A common carrier holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee.

Nothing else.

User-Loser and his depraved white racist ilk tries to rewrite the definition of common carriage so that a racist discriminatory social medium platform can escape the consequences of its violation.

The described public notice board is a material board to which a member affixes a material message.

Twitter is a virtual board to which a member affixes a virtual message. The function is identical. Why does the manner of implementation make a difference?

Why don’t we arrest a gamer for killing another gamer in a virtual reality game? Only reality counts.

I can argue the point less fancifully. An illegal monopoly could be rewritten in virtual reality not to be the monopoly, which it is in the real world. Virtue reality does not represent a legitimate defense either in a criminal trial or in a civil trial.

Twitter temporarily stores a message in a backend database system (hosting) while the message is on the way to an end-user by message common carriage.

The public notice board temporarily stores a message in a backend database system (admittedly, not a very robust or organized one). The message doesn’t travel. It doesn’t travel on Twitter either.

Does User-Loser mean the poster board onto which the message is tacked?

A backend database server of a social medium system has a definite meaning both to a PHOSITA (Person Having Ordinary Skill In The Art) and in ordinary dictionary usage. Poster board does not qualify.

The frontend model makes it easier for an end user to interact with Twitter’s system.

My eyes make it easier for me to interact with the public notice board.

User-Loser’s eyes interact with the display on his computing device and not with a backend server. Must I explain how biological vision works? I have been a biomedical physicist and can explain biological vision to any level of detail.

In other words, Twitter’s system has no similarity whatsoever to the material notice board

Clearly that is inaccurate. And again, everything you describe as a function of Twitter can also be accomplished with Simple Machines Forum software, but I haven’t seen you claim that every website using that software is also a common carrier or state actor. The function is identical. Why does the manner of implementation make a difference?

Virtual reality is neither actionable nor a defense in trial court.

If an entity holds out carriage via its website to the public according to standard terms for a fee, it
1. provides common carriage,
2. commits a self-evidencing violation if it denies common carriage, and
3. must pay potentially astronomical penalties for its violations.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You are funny when you are checkmated.

Even if you were 100% correct that just means Twitter functions more like a grain elevator which is also a common carrier.

You cant win this because you don’t know what you are talking about. You get your TechDirt from an MBA who knows fuck all about that which he is talking.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If the message is fixed on the server, how does User-Loser ever read it?

At my request, a copy of the message is transported by TCP/IP over ISP infrastructure from the server to my computer.

This is no different from me telling someone to go to the grocery store, get a copy of what’s on the message board, and bring it back to my house.

Whether I’m using a car to get there or TCP/IP packets, I (or someone/something acting on my behalf) am going to the message. That the “travel” is physical or electronic is irrelevant.

Why does he believe reading messages from a social medium platform on his computing device differs substantially from watching broadcast or cablecast video?

My Local TV station is still transmitting a signal even if nobody is tuned in. Websites don’t work that way. I would think someone with your supposed credentials would not need to be told that.

Why don’t we arrest a gamer for killing another gamer in a virtual reality game? Only reality counts.

I can argue the point less fancifully. An illegal monopoly could be rewritten in virtual reality not to be the monopoly, which it is in the real world. Virtue reality does not represent a legitimate defense either in a criminal trial or in a civil trial.

Oh is that so? Do you realize you just nullified your entire case with that argument? Twitter’s service is entirely virtual. If only reality counts, only physical messages count, not virtual ones. Therefore, your argument is invalid.

I designed or wrote some of the first such services.
I have been a biomedical physicist

[Citation Needed]

Poster board does not qualify.

Twitter’s message storage system, a library’s card catalog, files in a box in my closet, messages tacked on a poster board at the grocery store. They’re all the same thing.

And again, everything you describe as a function of Twitter can also be accomplished with Simple Machines Forum software, but I haven’t seen you claim that every website using that software is also a common carrier or state actor. The function is identical. Why does the manner of implementation make a difference?

Virtual reality is neither actionable nor a defense in trial court.

If an entity holds out carriage via its website to the public according to standard terms for a fee, it
1. provides common carriage,
2. commits a self-evidencing violation if it denies common carriage, and
3. must pay potentially astronomical penalties for its violations.

Oh look, avoiding the question again.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Anonymous Clown the Magic Believer

A subsentient nitwit like Anonymous Clown believes that an electromagnetic field or wave is non-physical. I wonder whether he believes a heavier bowling ball falls faster (in a vacuum) than a light bowling ball.

In the context of addresses of structures in a computer memory, “virtual” can means “moving” rather as a traveling circus, which can be set up and taken down, provides a moving place of public accommodation for exhibition and for entertainment. A virtual address is physical but travels between locations in storage, which can be primary, secondary, or remote.[1]

Sometimes virtual refers to structures that be easily reconfigured. Before I invented the logical or virtual packet switch in 1991,[2] bridges and routers were instantiated in hardware. Sometimes a single hardware device bridged or routed packets. If a company needed more than one bridge or router, it had to purchase a separate physical device for each required bridge or router.

If a hardware device executed my control software, it could instantiate multiple logical or virtual bridges or routers. The logical or virtual bridges or routers were definitely physical and genuinely bridged or routed packets, but a set of independent logical or virtual bridges or routers all running on a single hardware device could easily be deconfigured and reconfigured into a new set of logical or virtual bridges or routers all running on the selfsame hardware device.

Noah v. AOL Time Warner Inc., 261 F. Supp. 2d 532 (E.D. Va. 2003) also refers to a virtual entity, but as the Appellant’s Brief points out,[3] this decision provides a questionable basis for holding that the Internet is not a public accommodation according to 42 U.S. Code § 2000a. A WWW frontend adds an extra abstraction level according to the MVC design pattern.[4] The frontend abstraction (or model) facilitates user interaction with a frontend structure created by software that the service downloads to a user’s program-executing device (usually either a desktop computer or a mobile device like a smartphone or a tablet). The abstraction may or may not have a simple relationship with a frontend data structure. In this case, the qualification “virtual” refers to the interaction abstraction that pertains to the exchange of information between the user and a program that is executing on the frontend device or on a backend server device. The Memorandum Opinion of the Noah Court was correct in denying that the virtual forum[5] (chat room) was a place in the sense of the CRA. Plaintiff Noah’s error in presenting his case was metaphorically equivalent to confusing a movie (not a place) with the movie theater (a place), where the movie is exhibited. If Plaintiff Noah had focused on the AOL’s temporarily assembled place of public accommodation[6] for exhibition and for entertainment, he might have had a good argument that AOL was violating § 2000a by allowing other users to create an environment hostile to Muslims, who constitute a protected class under § 2000a.

Notes
[1] A logical address is restricted to traveling among locations in primary storage.
[2] {omitted}
[3] {omitted}
[4] The virtual forum (virtual conference room or virtual meeting room) interaction abstraction is an elementary instance of a virtual reality.
[5] Plaintiff Noah entered the temporarily assembled “movie theater” by means of his program-executing device.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Does Anonymous Clown Actually Have a Brain?

I hypothesize that aliens visited earth, abducted Anonymous Clown, scooped out his brain, and replaced it with an 8-bit microprocessor like the Bell Mac-8 (the one that used to run a payphone).

A social medium platform provides
store-and-forward message switching and
temporary storage (bailment or hosting) of a message (digital personal literary property) within a backend server on its way to delivery to its destination by digital message common carriage. The operations of store-and-forward message switching and temporary storage of a message are both traditional operations of message common carriage.

Wrong in that Social media perform no switching or routing of messages, it is a passive message board. To perform the forward part you would have to tell it who or where to deliver your message.

What a joke!!!! Passive message board?????

Social media provides persistent hosting, nor transient hosting because they do not delete all copies of a message on handover.

That is post this message on your board, and give me a copy of your board is nothing like take this message and deliver to the addressee. Also, they are not open to anyone, but rather provide a service to those people who sign up for service, and are closer to a club that a common carrier.

Also, through the various threads on this site you have more than adequately demonstrated why you are banned from some social media sites in that you fall back to childish name calling whenever it looks like you might be doing less that convincing other of the correctness of your view point.

Why would I have to make an effort to humiliate Anonymous Clown? He does such a great job of humiliating himself. I did not know von Neumann, but I had a good relationship with Howard Aiken. I have been designing, building, and programming computers since the 1960s. I am one of the original full-stack engineers.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 What Absurdity?

Someone has to be responsible for carriage of goods so that the customer can identify who he should sue if goods are lost or damaged.

If the mail order company tells the customer that he must arrange shipping with a common carrier, the customer has a business relationship with the common carrier and can sue him for loss or damage.

If the mail order company chargers the customer a shipping fee, the mail order company becomes the primary common carrier that delivers the goods to the customer.

The 1869 Massachusetts stature states precisely the above. All these issues were worked out hundreds of years ago.

When Amazon Fresh or Amazon Whole Foods ships merchandise to me, Massachusetts regulates Amazon under Massachusetts common carriage law, duh! Massachusetts penalty for a common carriage violation is brutal as the penalty should be. Amazon is always quick to replace a lost or damaged shipment.

A brutal penalty must be imposed on every depraved racist social medium platform for its common carriage violations.

A TechDirt user-loser white racist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform has either vacuum for brains or shit for brains and is incapable of understanding really really simple legal basics!

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 What Makes Amazon Whole Foods a Provider of Common Carriage

Amazon Whole Foods holds out carriage (of groceries = merchandise or food property) under standard terms for a fee.

The issue is probably clear to the average 7-year-old.

So, essentially, he believes a mail order company is a common carrier if it charges a shipping fee.

Amazon Whole Foods provides common carriage as well as groceries if I pay for shipping.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

That’s not how that works. They are a place of public accommodation, but they are not a common carrier. These are two very different things.

Again, to be a common carrier, they must—as part of their service—enable the delivery of something from something other than themselves to one or more other specifically designated places other than themselves. Since the grocery store is always the source in this transaction by design, they are not a common carrier. By contrast, Uber Eats would be a common carrier because they are neither the source nor destination.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: A PR stunt that became a law

… possibly?

I suspect however that it was mostly intended as another one of their ‘woe is me, look at how persecuted we are’ PR stunts they like to pull to keep their voters riled up and it just so happened to find itself in front of a group of judges that are wildly corrupt, insane, or both, and now they and everyone else get to see what happens next.

Which is not to say they aren’t almost certainly thrilled at the result currently(they are not going to like what happens should the impacted companies have anyone even remotely intelligent running things) but this outcome probably wasn’t the intention and motivation behind writing up and passing the law.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

A less charitable reading assumes that Texas wants to arrest a lot of tech executives and seize their properties for simply exercising their 1A rights.

The law was made to be broken. And while I do know I’m wrongly assuming that American politicians have a modicum of competence (they don’t), I can’t shake off the feeling that Texas intends to do way worse than civil asset forfeiture and unConstitutional arrests.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Yes and No

Yes and no. The act only allows for reimbursment of legal fees. However there are lots of attorneys who will love to bankrupt BigTech. 29M people average cost of $60K. Thats a littler under $2 Trillion there are plenty of high profile conservative attorneys who have already said they are going to be suing BigTech into oblivion.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I seem to remember that itt was McCarthy who started cancel culture in earnest… against communists.

And he was a charlatan and a hack.

And it was the conservatives, again, who tried to cancel rock amd roll, comics, D&D, video games, and all sorts of geek stuff. And women’s rights. And the abolition of slavery.

Good thing you’re back to actionable threats.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“This bullshit law lets Texas authorities do BOTH.”

Not yet! This current law only allows for monetary damages in the form of litigation costs. The big one will be when “political affiliation” is incorporated into red states civil rights codes. That’s when we start arresting all the silicon valley mother fuckers.

The supermax in West Livingston, Texas is really nice I hear.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re:

That’s certainly what they should do if they value the long-term viability of their platforms and don’t want to see them overrun by the most toxic people online since they can no longer boot those people off, though I don’t expect them to have the spine to actually follow through with that.

Still, if they did it would certainly be funny watching texas scream about how the social media companies and platforms have to operate in the state because the law says so and if they don’t then texas will sue with their nonexistent legal standing and make them.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Bounty hunters seldom kill their collars today. Why do you always have to extrapolate things to absurdity? Oh that’s right you are stupid.

You are probably more likely to be killed by a LEO executing a warrant as you are a bounty hunter.

But back to the point bounty hunting is perfectly legal in the US. If California will refuse full faith and credit we will just sick bounty hunters on BigTech.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It’s because Casinoroyale over he has no power in real life and the only way he can get it up without drugs it’s to attempt to abuse people he thinks are his lessers. Unfortunately he’s far far to stupid to realise just how outclassed in that department he is here. Also he probably got kicked off all the right wing nut job sites once he let it slip he is both brown and gay. So his choices for “companionship” such as he desires are here and the dumpster behind the Outback Steakhouse.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’ve never been proven wrong. You morons just latch onto things “usually irrelevant” and pretend you won. Remember when I psoted 15th century regulations on “pubic houses” which required so many rooms for and stables for rent. Remember when I posted HUD’s own data that over 30% of all “public housing” is privately owned? You dipshits still refused to admit I was correct.

You guys are just fucking stupid? You come to a site called TechDirt with most articles written by an MBA and a theater major. You are fucking idiots.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Remember when I psoted 15th century regulations on “pubic houses” which required so many rooms for and stables for rent. Remember when I posted HUD’s own data that over 30% of all “public housing” is privately owned?

Remember when you said you thought rape was funny, Mr. Public House-ing? Your credibility has taken so many hits that it makes Chris Benoit’s brain look normal.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You can’t really say “rape isn’t funny except in this one instance” without meaning “rape is funny in this one instance”, which means you think the act of sexual violence is humorous even if only in one context. You can justify your feelings by saying “it’s not about the act, it’s about who it happens to”, but nobody here is buying that bullshit⁠—you’re still laughing about someone being raped, which is something only rapists and sociopaths do. Which one are you?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Back again. A 15th century public house is not the same as a modern pub. Public Houses were required to have rooms and stables for rent. It was one of the first examples of the state using licensing authority to compel the private to provide for the public. There was a lack of affordable housing so if you wanted a liquor license you had to provide cheep rooms for rent.

Not my fault Mike’s Misfits are all ignorant morons.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

That still does not make them public housing, that is housing where people reside, as opposed to temporary accommodation for travelers. A public house is open to the public for drink, and optionally food and temporary accommodation. Public housing is rent controlled housing where people live.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Public housing is rent controlled housing where people live.”

That’s what public houses were. They were not temporary and many families shared rooms. And they were rent controlled. If you wanted the liquor license you had to provide cheep rooms for rent.

That was the deal. It was the first instance of what later became rent control.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

From Wikipedia

The term public house first appeared in the United Kingdom in late 17th century, and was used to differentiate private houses from those which were, quite literally, open to the public as “alehouses”, “taverns” and “inns”.

From Britannica

public house, byname pub, an establishment providing alcoholic beverages to be consumed on the premises. The traditional pub was an establishment found originally in Britain and regions of British influence. English common law early imposed social responsibilities for the well-being of travelers upon the inns and taverns, declaring them to be public houses which must receive all travelers in reasonable condition who were willing to pay the price for food, drink, and lodging.

Note; provide lodgings for travelers, and not rented accommodation as a residence.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

” English common law early imposed social responsibilities for the well-being of travelers upon the inns and taverns, declaring them to be public houses which must receive all travelers in reasonable condition who were willing to pay the price for food, drink, and lodging.

Note; provide lodgings for travelers, and not rented accommodation as a residence.”

You or someone else argued this before in the 16th century there were some 20,000 Pubs in Britain. At 5 rooms average to rent do you think there was some 100,000 travelers? That’s a higher per-capita room for rent rate than modern tourist traps like Florida.

You are an absolute fucking dipshit! Keep googling you pathetic fucking moron.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Back the travel was slow, and carried out at 20 miles a day or less. Where these days, you can use a car to do in an hour, that was back then two or three days away from home, so yes there was a higher demand for overnight accommodation, and for people traveling less distance than many do today for the commute to work.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You or someone else argued this before in the 16th century there were some 20,000 Pubs in Britain. At 5 rooms average to rent do you think there was some 100,000 travelers?

No. But sometimes a group of travelers may have come to a pub and needed the space. Better for a pub to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it. And while you say “average”, that doesn’t mean every pub had multiple rooms for rent. Some could’ve had one or two; some could’ve had more than five. What’s your point beyond wanting to argue semantics about an argument you lost months ago? Hell, what’s your point in coming to a site you hate and trolling people who have no respect for you other than some deep-seated desire to keep humiliating and denigrating yourself?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Fixing a Minor Omission to Clarify How Vile White Racist Stephen T. Stone Really Is

Some clarification.

I doubt even another humaniform SLUG would have an interest in mating with a depraved white racist genocide-supporting shit-for-brains humaniform slug like Stephen T. Stone. Thus he may not have undergone apophallation and still has a penis.

No evidence indicates shit-for-brains depraved white racist Stephen T. Stone even knows what bailment is.

I have produced the citations — the long-established right kind,

  1. to which the 9th Amendment applies and
  2. which this SCOTUS seems to love.

Shit-for-brains white racist Stephen T. Stone remains silent.

A social medium platform must obey the law. A social medium platform is an obvious message common carrier of digital personal literary property. There is no speech hosting with a social medium platform just as there is no speech hosting with an email service. The backends and protocols used are practically identical. A social medium front-end and an email front-end can easily be interchanged. In both cases (a social medium platform and an email service), each service only provides bailment of digital personal literary property on a backend server.

An email service provides message common carriage. A social medium platform provides message common carriage. The public has a Constitutional right to non-discriminatory common carriage (9th Amendment). Common carriage law is the origin of anti-discrimination law. Penalty for violation of common carriage law should be and often is draconian.

From Federal Register / Vol. 44, No. 181 / Monday, September 17, 1979 / Notices p. 53790.

The FCC concluded the following, which holds true whether or not the FCC decides to regulate an email service or a social medium platform.

[17] Not only is the proposed service [USPS E-Com (email)] “communications by wire or radio;” it is also a common carrier activity.

Stephen T. Stone is just another white racist user-loser that spouts nonsense about technology and law in his hate-filled effort to guarantee that a social medium platform can continue to discriminate against either a non-white or a non-European.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

I don’t want to search for whatever you think you’re replying to, but I am intrigued as to which comment you think was racist. Could you like to it, that seems to be a serious accusation?

“A social medium front-end and an email front-end can easily be interchanged”

I’m not sure how ignorant of tech you have to be to claim this, but I’m sure you’ll tell us. How similar do you think a mailed letter is to a nightclub?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Says the moron who gets his tech from a blog run primarily an MBA and a theater major neither of whom have had an actual tech job in their entire fucking lives.

TechDirt, technology being derived from the root techne logos has little no techne logos. Then someone tries to have an actual techne logos Mike MBA and Karl, theater major, run and hide because they know they are disphits. Mike is a classic narcists. Talks a big game but knows he is full of shit.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Says the moron who gets his tech from a blog”

I understand why you erect strawmen, I just don’t understand why they’re always so badly constructed.

“run primarily an MBA and a theater major neither of whom have had an actual tech job in their entire fucking lives”

I’d ask what job you’ve had, but then the most important question would be why you think there’s a required qualification to run an opinion blog. Even if what you say is true, there’s no reason why a theatre major can’t state is opinion on tech, especially when he opens the floor to people to tell him where he’s factually wrong (which weirdly, you’ve opted not to do)

“TechDirt, technology being derived from the root techne logos has little no techne logos. Then someone tries to have an actual techne logos”

I’m sure you meant to say something here. Whether angry typing or illiteracy prevented you from making sense I’m not sure, but thank you for not making false accusations of racism.

“Mike is a classic narcists”

Yet, despite not being able to spell your accusation about him, you choose to visit his site.

I’d love to argue against whatever point you think you’re making, but I’ll just ask you to phrase it in English first.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 More Racism

Actually got to think about this a little. Just another example of the WASP racism that exists on the left. Dancing is part of Latin culture. All true Latin men can dance. If you cant dance and speak Spanish you are a pocho.

That WASPs racist mother fuckers like yourself interpret a Latino talking about dancing as being “lap dancing” is just more of the subtle racism you are known for. You are protecting your culture onto another.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: I'm a full stack engineer -- one of the first. What are the credentials of white racist dummy PaulT?

An email service backend, a social medium backend, a blog backend, and a mailing list backend all keep mail/posts and replies/comments in a backend database. There are a few slight differences in distribution and public access. The front end of each service makes each service look different, but the protocols neither differ much (if at all) nor do the data exchanges between a frontend and its backend differ much (if at all).

In a modern architecture like Jamstack, it’s extremely easy to swap one frontend for another.

What is Jamstack?

Jamstack, previously stylized as JAMStack, stands for JavaScript, API and Markup and was first coined by Mathias Biilmann, CEO of Netlify in 2015. In Jamstack websites, the application logic typically resides on the client side, without being tightly coupled to the back end server.

So I have to ask the ignorant white racist dummy why he believes there is much difference among the four services I listed.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: A Reprise of the Bridge Router Wars

Back in the late 80s and early 90s tech nitwit user-losers used to get into religious wars over the virtues of bridging in comparison with routing. I asserted

  1. that bridging or routing was whatever a given designer said it was and
  2. that there was no a priori way to distinguish one system of path selection in a network from the other.

I received tremendous grief for the assertion, but I was completely correct as I am with respect to email service, social medium platform service, a blog service, and a mailing list service.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“I asserted

that bridging or routing was whatever a given designer said it was”

Yeah, weird isn’t it? If you pretend that other people are making things up and have no technical basis for their arguments, you can ignore all sorts of technical data!

I’ll just note that you didn’t prove there was no difference, only claimed that because you said there was no difference that it was good enough. You can surely make all sorts of arguments if you just reject the proof other people provide.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Email and social media differ in one significant respect, with email you address your email to a recipient, and if you want to send it to multiple recipient, you send a copy addressed to each recipient. When you open you mailbox, you are only shown emails that were addressed to you.

With social media you send you content to the social media service, with no recipient, and granting them the right to show it to whoever asks for it. When you open a social media app, you are given an interface that show items from people you have befriended, or tags you have chosen to follow.

The two service are different, and do not substitute for each other. For example, no company would send you persona;l notifications about say bills and payments using social media, but rather to your email. A company will announce new products and sales and other company news on social media.

With Email the sender decides who will receive their content, while with social media the user decides whose content they will look at. They may have common technologies, but they are no more similar in actual use than a diesel powered truck and a diesel powered train.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Once again Anonymous Clown Shows Utter Technological Clueless of a White Racist User Loser

Such a despicable ignorant racist dumb-dumb always looking for a way to legitimize, to normalize, and to justify racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

Email and social media differ in one significant respect, with email you address your email to a recipient, and if you want to send it to multiple recipient, you send a copy addressed to each recipient. When you open you mailbox, you are only shown emails that were addressed to you.

Addressing is a non-issue from the standpoint of common carriage law.

Mail explorers have existed forever, and I receive lots of emails from mailing lists. Such email is not addressed to me by the originator.

With social media you send you content to the social media service, with no recipient, and granting them the right to show it to whoever asks for it. When you open a social media app, you are given an interface that show items from people you have befriended, or tags you have chosen to follow.

You are just pointing out the barter for common carriage. A social medium platform really does not work much differently from a mail Listserv or from an email service.

The two service are different, and do not substitute for each other. For example, no company would send you persona;l notifications about say bills and payments using social media, but rather to your email. A company will announce new products and sales and other company news on social media.

I have received bills on LinkedIn, which is a social medium platform.

I receive sales literature and company news both by means of email service and by means of a social medium platform.

With Email the sender decides who will receive their content, while with social media the user decides whose content they will look at. They may have common technologies, but they are no more similar in actual use than a diesel powered truck and a diesel powered train.

For many tasks, a diesel-powered truck and a diesel-powered are completely interchangeable just as an email service, a blog service, a mail Listserv, and a social medium platform are completely interchangeable for many uses.

If I use a mail exploder, I have no idea where my email goes.

Both a diesel-powered truck and also a diesel-powered train can be used for common carriage, and the technologies of both differ little to a technology expert like me. I could build either from scratch.

Anonymous Clown is nothing more than a shit-for-brains white racist dummy, who tries to use any ridiculous argument to legitimize, to normalize, and to justify racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

Such discrimination is completely unlawful from the standpoint of common carriage law and violates my Ninth Amendment Right to non-discriminatory common carriage.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

We get it, you are so twitter and bisted that you want to force your way onto platforms where you can attack those that disagree with you. In your desperation to do so you will twist technology def9initions and the law to achieve your end regardless of how much damage doing so will do to society.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I’d also like to add.

An email list is not common carrier, though the email part is.

Twitter isn’t a common carrier unless the account is from a government entity. But the underlying infrastructure is. Same goes for Facebook and even Mondoweiss. Those sites are also NOT common carriers.

A BBS is not common carrier, and will never be.

The IRC Protocol is a protocol, but the server networks are NOT common carrier. There’s nothing stopping Holocaust Deniers and assholes from running their own IRC servers and moderating as they wish.

And all these places are allowed to engage in moderation because 1A, property rights and Section 230. If sites had to ask for permission to moderate, then we’re all fucked.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Twitter isn’t a common carrier unless the account is from a government entity. But the underlying infrastructure is. Same goes for Facebook and even Mondoweiss. Those sites are also NOT common carriers.”

Then how are taverns, gristmills, grain elevators etc. common carriers? Telecom is actually the newest industry folded into common carrier law that is centuries old.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 White racist elitist dummy Stephen T. Stone once again shows completely erroneous beliefs about the US legal system!

The states regulated telegraphs, telephone systems, and other common carriers for decades before the US federal government became involved.

Keep whining about common carriers. Neither Twitter nor Facebook are a common carrier until the federal government says so⁠—and since it hasn’t, you can feel free to die mad about that fact.

The federal government has never involved itself with an intrastate common carrier like a local taxi company. In the glory days of national telephone common carriage, the FCC regulated common carriage among voice common carriers. Regulation of common carriage at the local loop was left to a state, which usually applie state common carriage law.

The ignorance of white racist-elitist dummy Stephen T. Stone could fill a plethora of Rose Bowls.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Okay, here’s the thing I don’t get about your crusade to turn usage of Twitter into a goddamned civil right: Why?

I don’t like asking that specific question because it puts people on the defensive. But here, I must finally ask it, because I don’t understand why you want to make Twitter⁠—or Facebook, or Techdirt, or any other interactive web service⁠—host your speech. Like, what would you get out of going “you gotta let me use your site as a platform, fuck you” other than spiteful satisfaction? What would admitting that you’ve forced other people to host your speech get you other than a reputation for being an asshole who delights in forcing his speech onto other people’s property? Why do you want to make other people host your speech other than spite for people you hate?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

“Okay, here’s the thing I don’t get about your crusade to turn usage of Twitter into a goddamned civil right: Why?”

People form governments to protect their rights form private aggression. If the government wont protect the peoples rights from the aggression of a small group of silicon valley psychopaths what is the point of having a government.

At some point in time because of morons like you we lost the plot on why government exists in the first place.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

“Okay, but…you don’t have a right to use Twitter, and you clearly hate Twitter, so why do you want to force your speech onto Twitter?”

I have a right to free speech and free press. Twitter is todays press. It is incumbent on the government to protect these rights from private aggression. That is why government exists in the first place.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15 Common Carrier and Mass Mailing

Twitter is a message common carrier that does the Internet equivalent of mass-mailing (a common carriage service).

A common carrier has no Amendment I rights with respect to the merchandise or property that it transports or holds in bailment during transport.

A member of the public has an Amendment IX right to non-discriminatory common carriage from every social medium platform.

The Internet is established by the state as a place of public accommodation as well as a state-supporter state-designated public forum.

Every social medium platform comes under Title II of the CRA.

Because every social medium platform provides an open forum within a public forum, every social medium platform is a state proxy (less clearly a state actor). Every social medium platform violates the Constitution whenever it abridges the freedom of speech of the public.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Twitter is a message common carrier that does the Internet equivalent of mass-mailing (a common carriage service).

False, as I’ve explained over and over and you’ve yet to rebut.

A common carrier has no Amendment I rights with respect to the merchandise or property that it transports or holds in bailment during transport.

Except that’s not what social media does. It keeps the content even when it’s not being transported.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

“Except that’s not what social media does. It keeps the content even when it’s not being transported.”

E-mail does the same thing.

Common carrier is just a legal framework. I’m sure Western Union made the same bitch bitch bitch arguments when their telegraph was made a common carrier. Hell it was a far bigger jump to extend common carrier to telegraph then than it is today with social media.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

E-mail does the same thing.

It can, but it’s not required to in order to operate. Look at Usenet. In order to operate, it is not necessary for every Usenet server to store everything posted there; only for one of them to, at which point the others point to it. Similarly, for email, the email has to be stored somewhere, but that isn’t necessary to operate.

Moreover, any given email service provider only stores emails as the user sends or receives them, and even then it’s common for older posts to be deleted unless marked otherwise.

At any rate, the point is that this isn’t a case of transient storage.

Hell it was a far bigger jump to extend common carrier to telegraph then than it is today with social media.

Hardly. At least telegraphs actually transmit something that they don’t keep.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19 Look at the Depraved White Racist Spin Nonsense!

Has the depraved white racist used Outlook Mail, Gmail, Protonmail, etc.?

Moreover, any given email service provider only stores emails as the user sends or receives them, and even then it’s common for older posts to be deleted unless marked otherwise.

At any rate, the point is that this isn’t a case of transient storage.

The email service holds my personal digital literary property in bailment until I request delivery by HTTP request sequence. (It’s my personal digital literary property because common carriage of personal literary property to me is a legally recognized means of conveying ownership to me.)

The depraved white racist is attempting to enable racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

Racism is as a depraved white racist does.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Has the depraved white racist used Outlook Mail, Gmail, Protonmail, etc.?

Gmail, yes. Others, no.

The email service holds my personal digital literary property in bailment until I request delivery by HTTP request sequence. (It’s my personal digital literary property because common carriage of personal literary property to me is a legally recognized means of conveying ownership to me.)

Sure. You are the end destination. That’s not how social media services work. Viewing a post doesn’t give you any ownership interest over it whatsoever. Being sent an email does. That’s the difference here.

The depraved white racist is attempting to enable racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

[citation needed]

As far as I can tell, no one here says that social media platforms can or should be able to discriminate based on race. However, it is also the case that there is zero evidence that any social media platform has ever engaged in racial discrimination ever. You have not alleged facts that would lead us to conclude otherwise.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I have a right to free speech and free press. Twitter is todays press.

Yes or no: Do you have an absolute legal right to make others print and disseminate your speech⁠—e.g., to have a newspaper print your letter?

“Freedom of the press” is about someone having the right to disseminate their own speech at their own expense (e.g., owning their own printing press). It has never been about the imagined right to force other people into spreading your speech at their expense. If you can cite anything that says otherwise, I’d be genuinely surprised.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The states regulated telegraphs, telephone systems, and other common carriers for decades before the US federal government became involved.

The states also coined money, established intellectual property rights like copyright, and regulated interstate commerce for decades before the U.S. federal government became involved, but those powers are now exclusively reserved for the federal government.

The federal government has never involved itself with an intrastate common carrier like a local taxi company.

The key word there is “intrastate”. Websites, including social media, are not intrastate anything; they engage in interstate and international commerce. Only the federal government can regulate interstate and international commerce, period. Heck, even by your own comparison with mass mailers, only the federal government regulates postal services like your example (in that it forces them to deliver regardless of the usual 1A right not to), so by your own logic, it’s the federal government that makes the call in this instance.

In the glory days of national telephone common carriage, the FCC regulated common carriage among voice common carriers.

Something which it still does today, and social media is nothing like telephone other than its national reach and use of electronic technology. This doesn’t show that social media is a common carrier or that a state could regulate social media as common carriers absent a federal determination that it’s a common carrier service.

Regulation of common carriage at the local loop was left to a state, which usually applie state common carriage law.

Again, we’re not dealing with “common carriage at the local loop”. In case you forgot, Twitter, Facebook, and Google are not physically located in Texas or Florida, so any commerce involving them is necessarily not local even regarding content posted by a local and intended to be viewed by a local. That content still has to leave the state and/or enter the state at some point, which necessarily means it’s not local.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

By the same token, the Ninth and Eleventh Circuits said it isn’t. And given the Fifth Circuit’s baffling-ass decision, I’m more inclined to side with the other two courts.

Also: Until SCOTUS says otherwise (because all those decisions will be appealed), Twitter isn’t a common carrier under federal law, which is the fact that matters most here. (Not that facts have ever mattered to you, Mr. Public House-ing, but still.)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“Twitter isn’t a common carrier unless the account is from a government entity.

Wrong, The Government account is considered a public forum, which is different from a common carrier, but only for purposes of its management government employees. That ruling does not Stop Twitter from banning the person tweeting abuse at the government, jut that the government employee cannot block that person.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Addressing is a non-issue from the standpoint of common carriage law.

Actually, it’s a critical part of it. You need a sender and a designated recipient, otherwise you’re dealing with the endpoint of the carriage, which is necessarily not a common carrier.

Mail explorers have existed forever, and I receive lots of emails from mailing lists. Such email is not addressed to me by the originator.

What exactly do you think a mailing list is? It’s a list of addresses. Anyone not on the list does not and cannot receive the email being sent. Either way, an address is needed. On social media, no address (by default) is specified as the recipient(s) by anyone at all, and anyone can receive it.

The point is that the common carrier has to have at least one address to be the recipient, whether that be supplied by the originator or by a mailing list. Twitter doesn’t do that. Heck, even when a recipient is specified, people other than the designated recipient can usually still receive it.

For many tasks, a diesel-powered truck and a diesel-powered [train] are completely interchangeable just as an email service, a blog service, a mail Listserv, and a social medium platform are completely interchangeable for many uses.

So are restaurants, bars, grocery stores, etc., and they aren’t really interchangeable with each other, which is the point. Interchangeability is not a sufficient condition to be a common carrier.

If I use a mail exploder, I have no idea where my email goes.

But the mailer service itself does and has to specify where it goes, and it cannot be received by anyone else. That the originator doesn’t know is ultimately irrelevant; the point is that an address(es) is/are used to designate the recipient(s) at the moment the transaction is initiated, such address(es) is/are known by the common carrier, and anywhere not so designated will not receive the thing being transmitted.

With Twitter, not even Twitter knows where the content will be received as it is available even to those who don’t have a Twitter account (and thus address) at all with no additional steps.

Both a diesel-powered truck and also a diesel-powered train can be used for common carriage, […]

That something can be used for common carriage doesn’t make it a common carrier if it’s not used in such a manner.

[…] and the technologies of both differ little to a technology expert like me. I could build either from scratch.

I highly doubt that.

Anonymous Clown is nothing more than a shit-for-brains white racist dummy, […]

[citation needed] for the assertions that they are white and racist.

[…] who tries to use any ridiculous argument to legitimize, to normalize, and to justify racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

You have not asserted facts that demonstrate racial discrimination by a social media platform, and the AC isn’t talking about racial discrimination by a social media platform. This is about alleged viewpoint discrimination by the platform, which is another issue entirely. Whether or not social media platforms are common carriers would be irrelevant to whether racial discrimination by those platforms is allowed as that is an issue around places that offer public accommodation (or with regards to employment), which is an entirely different issue altogether. The issue of common carriage is only material to whether or not viewpoint discrimination is permitted.

Such discrimination is completely unlawful from the standpoint of common carriage law […]

Again, that’s public accommodation law, not common carriage law.

[…] and violates my Ninth Amendment Right to non-discriminatory common carriage.

That isn’t a Ninth Amendment right. Can you provide a citation to any case law that uses the Ninth Amendment to establish a right to non-discriminatory common carriage?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Please Continue to Show White Racist Ignorance

Where is address anywhere in the definition of common carrier?

A common carrier holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee.

Addressing is a non-issue from the standpoint of common carriage law.

Actually, it’s a critical part of it. You need a sender and a designated recipient, otherwise you’re dealing with the endpoint of the carriage, which is necessarily not a common carrier.

Before the 60s some towns used private trash haulers (truckers of trash). The trash hauler was only required to carry the trash to a legal disposal site. If a trash hauler only offered carriage to a white, often the only way to nail such a racist trash hauler was by means of common carriage law.

Racist is as racist does or as racist argues.

A supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform makes an inherently racist argument.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Where is address anywhere in the definition of common carrier?

It is in the definition carrier service, in that a carrier transport something from a to b, even if that is electronic signals, and needs to know b so they can deliver what they are carrying. When you post letters, or use a parcel service, you put the destination address on the outside of the Item. When you use a phone, the number you dial is the destination address. When you use the Internet, the IP address is the destination address. When you use public transport, you ticket price is often determines by where you tell them you want to go, even if it from a limited number of destinations.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Where is address anywhere in the definition of common carrier?

This part:

A common carrier holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee.

“Carriage” necessarily involves moving something (physical or digital) from one specific place to at least one other specific place. For it to be “to the public”, both the original source and final destination(s) cannot be the carrier itself in most transactions (though, of course, that a carrier can be the source or destination in some cases doesn’t prevent the service from being common carriage; it simply means that there must be some transactions as part of the exact same service (as opposed to a separate service offered as part of the same package or something like that) where the carrier is neither the originator nor the final destination(s)). To facilitate this, an address designating the destination(s) is necessary. Otherwise, the carrier cannot carry to a specific place and is left “holding the bag”, so to speak, with no endpoint.

Social media platforms don’t deliver to any particular place; they simply hold it and allow others to request a copy, which the platforms generate and deliver when receiving an http request, but there is no end destination where the transaction ceases unless the sender (not the recipient) or the platform itself deletes the copy stored by the platform on servers it controls.

That’s the other key issue: carriage is necessarily a transaction with a defined endpoint where the sender has no further control over whether the item or content is retained or what recipients can do with it and the sending carrier is not required to retain the contents. Most social media services allow users to remove posts they submitted, meaning they retain some control over it even after it is submitted. The platforms also generally retain possession in perpetuity and allow access even to unregistered users. There is no real endpoint to the transaction where it becomes “complete”.

Before the 60s some towns used private trash haulers (truckers of trash). The trash hauler was only required to carry the trash to a legal disposal site.

Which involves a designated endpoint. Again, whether the original source or the carrier determines the address is irrelevant.

If a trash hauler only offered carriage to a white, often the only way to nail such a racist trash hauler was by means of common carriage law.

Really? I would think you could use laws regarding public accommodation for that. You don’t need to be a common carrier to be held liable under the Civil Rights Act; you just need to offer goods or services to the public at all.

A supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform makes an inherently racist argument.

No, because a supporter of discrimination against a viewpoint is not supporting discrimination against a race. You’re conflating two completely different kinds of discrimination. I can support one kind of discrimination without supporting racist discrimination. (Again, I dispute your assertion that the discrimination you allegedly experienced was based on your race rather than other factors like the content of what you said. This is also not supporting discrimination based on race or a racist argument; I fail to see how your allegations would lead to the inference of racial discrimination, specifically.)

Additionally, I can support the legal right for private individuals to be racist without making a racist argument. I support the right of people to say racist things even though I disapprove of them choosing to exercise that right.

This claim is flawed on at least two fronts: Not all discrimination is racist, so not all support of discrimination implicates race or racism at all, and supporting the legal right to discriminate based on race can, in some contexts, not rely on racist ideas.

Note that, in every single instance, I’ve only argued in support of the right for social media platforms to discriminate where it doesn’t involve discrimination based on one’s membership in a protected class (including race), and I’ve particularly argued in favor of the legal right for social media platforms to discriminate based on speech, conduct, or viewpoint. I’ve even gone out of my way to distinguish these two kinds of discrimination, and I’ve explicitly stated that I don’t believe you have plausibly alleged racial discrimination by social media platforms to begin with several times as well, and that is the closest I’ve ever gotten to referring to any person’s race at all. I’ve also been careful to say that I support their right to do such discrimination even if I don’t agree with them actually doing so.

How you could possibly twist that into support for racism is completely beyond me.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 A Creative Imagination

Is there anything but delusion in the last comment from the white racist supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform?

Where is address anywhere in the definition of common carrier?

This part:

A common carrier holds out carriage to the public under standard terms for a fee.

“Carriage” necessarily involves moving something (physical or digital) from one specific place to at least one other specific place.

The racist seems to be on stern drugs. When I typed in the definition of common carriage, I never typed the word address.

For it to be “to the public”, both the original source and final destination(s) cannot be the carrier itself in most transactions (though, of course, that a carrier can be the source or destination in some cases doesn’t prevent the service from being common carriage;

An amusement part has been held to provide common carriage with a Ferris wheel or with a roller coaster.

it simply means that there must be some transactions as part of the exact same service (as opposed to a separate service offered as part of the same package or something like that) where the carrier is neither the originator nor the final destination(s)).

The primary common carrier may directly or indirectly employ another common carrier in order to complete delivery. The primary common carrier remains the primary common carrier and is completely liable to the customer for any failure in delivery.

To facilitate this, an address designating the destination(s) is necessary. Otherwise, the carrier cannot carry to a specific place and is left “holding the bag”, so to speak, with no endpoint.

A mass mailing has no specific delivery address, might cover a whole town, and is an example of common carriage.

Social media platforms don’t deliver to any particular place; they simply hold it and allow others to request a copy, which the platforms generate and deliver when receiving an http request, but there is no end destination where the transaction ceases unless the sender (not the recipient) or the platform itself deletes the copy stored by the platform on servers it controls.

Every HTTP request for content held in bailment at the server of a social medium platform is a request for common carriage of a user’s digital personal literary property to the requester’s computing device.

That’s the other key issue: carriage is necessarily a transaction with a defined endpoint where the sender has no further control over whether the item or content is retained or what recipients can do with it and the sending carrier is not required to retain the contents. Most social media services allow users to remove posts they submitted, meaning they retain some control over it even after it is submitted. The platforms also generally retain possession in perpetuity and allow access even to unregistered users. There is no real endpoint to the transaction where it becomes “complete”.

Each HTTP request sequence that results in delivery of digital personal literary property to another destination computing device constitutes a new request for common carriage.

Before the 60s some towns used private trash haulers (truckers of trash). The trash hauler was only required to carry the trash to a legal disposal site.

Which involves a designated endpoint. Again, whether the original source or the carrier determines the address is irrelevant.

What is the designated endpoint? If the common carrier chooses the destination, the destination obviously was not chosen by the customer.

If a trash hauler only offered carriage to a white, often the only way to nail such a racist trash hauler was by means of common carriage law.

Really? I would think you could use laws regarding public accommodation for that. You don’t need to be a common carrier to be held liable under the Civil Rights Act; you just need to offer goods or services to the public at all.

Have you read Title II of the 1964 Civil Rights Act?

The depraved white racist is trying to enable racial discrimination by a social medium platform.

Racism is as the white racist does.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

An email service backend, a social medium backend, a blog backend, and a mailing list backend all keep mail/posts and replies/comments in a backend database. There are a few slight differences in distribution and public access. The front end of each service makes each service look different, but the protocols neither differ much (if at all) nor do the data exchanges between a frontend and its backend differ much (if at all).

If there is little to no difference between these services, that means that one of them is a common carrier/public forum/state actor, then they ALL are. Do you agree? If not, why not?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Transivity and Indentity in Law

An email service backend, a social medium backend, a blog backend, and a mailing list backend all provide some form of common carriage.

If there is little to no difference between these services, that means that one of them is a common carrier/public forum/state actor, then they ALL are. Do you agree? If not, why not?

An email system is only rarely configured to be either a place of public accommodation or a public forum. My corporate email network is not so configured.

The Internet is a state-supported place of public accommodation and is also a state-designated public forum,

Entities within the Internet must conform to Title II of the 1964 CRA.

A private entity, which creates an open forum within a public forum, becomes a state proxy and cannot do anything which the government cannot do — otherwise it’s a trivial strategy of exclusion for a state to put the private entity in charge of the public forum or of a piece of it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If there is little to no difference between these services, that means that one of them is a common carrier/public forum/state actor, then they ALL are. Do you agree? If not, why not?

A private entity, which creates an open forum within a public forum, becomes a state proxy and cannot do anything which the government cannot do — otherwise it’s a trivial strategy of exclusion for a state to put the private entity in charge of the public forum or of a piece of it.

Then your answer is yes. Every website on the Internet that allows user-generated content is a state actor and common carrier, from the smallest niche hobby bulletin board to the likes of Twitter, Ebay, and Steam.

Other than you, I have never heard anyone even attempt to make an argument this ridiculous. This would turn every user-generated content site into 4chan. I highly doubt that your interpretation of the law is correct, but if it is, then the law needs to be changed.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Social Medium Platform = Mass-Requesting-From + Common Carriage

Amendment I Rights Are a Weak Argument Against Discrimination by a Racist Social Medium Platform.

A social medium platform platform appears to be a common carrier that performs the equivalent of mass mailing. In reality, users mass request common carriage of digital personal literary property or other intellectual property to their computing devices.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re:

It is pure ignorance to refer to speaking or to publishing of a social medium platform.

Because of the way HTTP works, no one ever receives personal literary property or other intellectual property from a social medium user without first requesting it via a sequence of HTTP requests.

A supporter of discrimination by a social medium platform discrimination hides two basic truths of the World Wide Web.

No one ever forces his intellectual property on anyone. A social medium platform is not a broadcaster. The intellectual property, which the social medium platform holds in bailment until it is ready to be delivered via common carriage, is always recipient-requested by a message sent directly to the social medium platform — starting with an HTTP GET Request.

A social medium platform is massively subsidized by the US government and by the public both of whom put tremendous amounts of money into expanding the Internet. Pre-Breakup AT&T always tried to make sure it owned every piece of equipment that attached to its network or that was in it in order to avoid an accusation that AT&T was government-subsidized or a government proxy (actor). (A social medium platform does not do much R&D because the R&D, which drives the Internet is mostly government-subsidized in government-subsidized networks by government-subsidized researchers at colleges and at universities.)

A common carrier has no Amendment I rights with respect to the merchandise or property that it transports or holds in bailment during transport.

A member of the public has an Amendment IX right to non-discriminatory common carriage from every social medium platform.

The Internet is established by the state as a place of public accommodation for resource sharing, for academic research, for academic communications, for exhibition, and for entertainment. See 42 U.S. Code § 2000a (b) “Establishments … supported by State action as [not to be] places…” The phrasing is a simile.

In addition, the Internet is a state-supported state-designated public forum. See 47 U.S. Code § 230 (a) & (b). The clauses are declaratory and declare the Internet to a government-designated public forum.

Every social medium platform comes under Title II of the CRA.

Because every social medium platform provides an open forum within a public forum, every social medium platform is a state proxy (a state actor in confusing terminology). Every social medium platform violates the Constitution whenever it abridges the freedom of speech of the public.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: A Social Medium Platform Does Neither Speaking Nor Publishing of Intellectual Property in Bailment

It is pure ignorance to refer to speaking or to publishing of a social medium platform.

Because of the way HTTP works, no one ever receives personal literary property or other intellectual property from a social medium user without first requesting it via a sequence of HTTP requests.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I know this is probably something of an issue for you, but don’t go around shoving things down my throat. That goes as much for words as it does for…other things you apparently want to shove down my throat without my permission.

If the law eventually says social media services are common carriers, I won’t like it, but I’ll accept it because duh. (I’ll probably also stop using social media services because the law will ensure they’ll become 4chan clones, and I don’t feel like dealing with the “Worst People” Problem.) But until the law says that, I’m free to both point out that the law doesn’t say that and tell anyone who thinks the law should say that “you’re fucking stupid”. Try and stop me.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

A social medium platform platform appears to be a common carrier that performs the equivalent of mass mailing.

False. A social media platform does the equivalent of acting like a bulletin board for anyone to use. Mass mailing requires at least one addressee, even if it’s just a list of addressees, and is not sent to anyone not specified. Social media platforms do not. Additionally, once the mass mails are all sent, the intermediary does not retain the content at all. Social media, by default, always retains any content posted on the platform.

In reality, users mass request common carriage of digital personal literary property or other intellectual property to their computing devices.

Which is the exact opposite of mass mailing because it’s allowing the masses to receive the content, not allowing the senders to push the content to the masses.

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