The Two Leading Presidential Candidates -- Clinton And Trump -- Are Both Mocking Free Speech On The Internet

from the this-seems-like-a-problem dept

Yesterday, we wrote about Hillary Clinton's absolutely terrible plan for undermining both encryption and free speech on the internet as a way to "deal" with ISIS. I left out the worst quote of all that she stated in the process, mockingly:
"You’re going to hear all of the usual complaints, you know, freedom of speech, et cetera..."
Free speech et cetera? That's handwaving it away. You can see the whole clip here, of the leading Democratic Presidential candidate who will almost certainly win the nomination:
Her full statement:
You’re going to hear all of the usual complaints, you know, freedom of speech, et cetera. But if we truly are in a war against terrorism and we are truly looking for ways to shut off their funding, shut off the flow of foreign fighters, then we’ve got to shut off their means of communicating. It’s more complicated with some of what they do on encrypted apps, and I’m well aware of that, and that requires even more thinking about how to do it.
Shut off their means of communicating? These tools are tools that everyone uses -- and, in fact, which Hillary Clinton herself did a tremendous amount of (good) work helping to spread around the globe as Secretary of State. And now she's trying to cut it all off?

And over on the other side of things, the leading Republican candidate, Donald Trump, basically said the exact same thing on Monday, just in a more Trump fashion.
We're losing a lot of people because of the internet. We have to do something. We have to go see Bill Gates and a lot of different people that really understand what's happening. We have to talk to them, maybe in certain areas, closing that internet up in some ways. Somebody will say, 'Oh freedom of speech, freedom of speech.' These are foolish people. We have a lot of foolish people. We have a lot foolish people.
You can see that one here:
Think about this for a second. You have the two leading Presidential candidates -- one from each party -- each advocating that we shut down entire parts of the internet and censor speech, because bad people can use the internet just like good people. And both of them flat out say that, sure, some people will complain about free speech, but they both dismiss such complaints mockingly with nothing more than a suggestion that you can't take anyone who cries "free speech" seriously.

I usually laugh off people who get deeply scared about one person or another winning the Presidency, as they usually overestimate how much power the President really has. But, either I'm suddenly turning into an old cranky guy, or we're facing one hell of a scary Presidential election next year where the major candidates are not just bad, but downright scary. It's become pretty cliche to argue "that's what the terrorists want" in response to various kneejerk reactions by politicians, but really, does anyone not think that certain people are getting a kick out of US politicians shoving each other aside to belittle one of the most cherished rights that is a key principle of our country -- the First Amendment -- at the first opportunity?

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread


  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:39am

    The only thing worse than politics is politics on Techdirt.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:34am

      Re:

      Well, given that the politicians are putting themselves dead-center in TDs wheelhouse by talking about "closing that internet up in some ways", I don't see how anyone could resist swinging.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      That One Other Not So Random Guy, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:34pm

      Re:

      The only thing worse than politics is politics itself. FTFY.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Mason Wheeler (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:41am

    the leading Democratic Presidential candidate who will almost certainly win the nomination

    You know, that's what they were saying about her 4 years ago. It was inevitable, 2008 was to be Hillary's coronation, etc. But then actual people started actually voting in the primaries, and she turned out to be such a horrible candidate that she literally lost to a rookie with no qualifications.

    The only significant thing that's changed since then is that she's actually up against a worthwhile opponent in the Democratic primary this time.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:44am

      Re:

      which one is that? I looked at both parties and everyone sucks balls.

      Anyone who is not holding their nose as they vote for anyone in these two crowds deserves the pain and misery that their government will visit upon them.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:10am

        Re: Re:

        And holding your nose does what, exactly, to address your stated pov that all candidates "suck balls" ?

        Why do you blame the victim?
        None of the candidates:
        1) espouse your particular pov on all issues?
        2) have a personality to your liking?
        3) ???

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:06am

          Re: Re: Re:

          The citizenry should always be held responsible for its government.

          If the government becomes trash it needs to do something about. It never ceases to amaze how may people say when life gives you lemons make lemonade, but the same crowds throws up their hands and then say screw it on politics.

          We reap what we sow, and let me tell you what, we have been sowing some terrible garbage.

          I do not need a candidate with a personality to my liking, but they MUST support the constitution, some say they do, but they actually don't.

          They are either against the 1st & 2nd, pro police state, pro big business at the expense of the people and society, or a federalist.

          The fact that many people think that this 2 party system contains characters that are radically different from each other is the greatest con going on right now. Bernie, Trump, Hillary, Rubio, insert your candidate here... these guys are not all that different from each other.

          Both sides make it clear they seek to enslave The People, they merely disagree on how to accomplish that goal! At the end of the day that is what we vote for. Who gets to enslave us.

          What was the last time you heard someone actually say, lets remove ridiculous laws, or before we make new ones lets resolve all of the contradictory ones instead?

          How about we take rule making AWAY from the alphabet soup agencies and put it right where the Constitution says it is supposed to be huh?

          If that is too much to ask, then yes, WE DO DESERVE THE MISERY!

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:19am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            I gather you are not a well versed in history.

            Were the citizens of Nazi Germany held responsible for their government? AFAIK, the Nuremberg trials only covered the ranking officials of government/military, not lowly serfs who may or may not have even voted.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 4:47am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              so you think Germany is not under allied occupation hu?

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Wendy Cockcroft, 11 Dec 2015 @ 5:39am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Whether or not they were held to account is not the point here. That no government can exist without the consent of its people is.

              Remember how people power killed SOPA? Imagine that power being brought to bear on asset forfeiture, etc. I've been told by some people that they hate having to constantly push back against bad actors and the end result is campaign fatigue. Basically, they'd work harder to get their government to do their job properly if they could be bothered but they can't. It's too much effort.

              This explains the angry calls for armed rebellion I see sometimes in the comments here on TD. It's easier to point and shoot than to hold a politician to account and keep a tight hold on the proverbial choke chain. This is why an armed rebellion has no chance at all of succeeding: all it would achieve is a monumental bloodbath followed by repression on a massive scale when the resultant power vacuum ushers in the despot you believe will make the trains run on time.

              This is a problem you have to organise your way to resolving. That means being willing to work together with people you disagree with. Then you will see change.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            tqk (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:30pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            The citizenry should always be held responsible for its government.

            It is delusional to believe 21st century elections can be fair elections. The politicians have had their fingers in the pudding for so long, it's long since ceased to be in the voters' hands. The head of the FEC agrees, and admits she/they can do nothing about it. It's a rigged game from start to finish, gerrymandered to death, and only serves incumbents except in extraordinary circumstances.

            The gov't and politicians the Constitution was supposed to keep in check are running the place. The inmates have taken over the asylum; the fire in the fireplace is out of control and burning down the house. Revolution is the only option, sadly. Nothing else can stop it now.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Wendy Cockcroft, 11 Dec 2015 @ 5:40am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Copy-pasta from last comment: It's easier to point and shoot than to hold a politician to account and keep a tight hold on the proverbial choke chain. This is why an armed rebellion has no chance at all of succeeding: all it would achieve is a monumental bloodbath followed by repression on a massive scale when the resultant power vacuum ushers in the despot you believe will make the trains run on time.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:23pm

            "How about we take rule making AWAY from the alphabet soup agencies and put it right where the Constitution says it is supposed to be huh?"

            That will not make it any better. Why? Because the average voter is stupid too and will just vote whatever fox news or their favorite channel manipulates them to vote.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:36am

          Re: Re: Re:

          "suck balls" may be an extreme expression but the concept has been around awhile: none of the candidates running are appealing to the masses. People refuse to cast a ballot because they don't like any of the candidates. Unfortunately "none of the above" is not a valid choice, and writing in such won't matter: many jurisdictions require a write-in candidate to meet all the other qualifications, including petition signatures and financial disclosures or they won't count the write-in votes. There is a legal question regarding such practices but AFAIK they haven't been challenged in court.

          And when people do vote, lately there have been races where the winning candidate did NOT have a 50% or higher majority. This includes both elections that Bill Clinton was elected President. Thus you have citizens that think their vote doesn't matter because over 50% voted for losing candidates. How does that happen? Because more than 2 people appear on the ballot.

          The US is long overdue to acknowledge that sometimes other countries have a better idea. One such idea is in elections: wide open primaries with the top 2 candidates no matter what political party they belong to going to the general election. Unfortunately (at least for President and Vice President) a constitutional amendment would be required.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 12:09pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Voter turnout is typically less than 50% in the US,
            so what do some winning candidates claim?
            They claim to have received a mandate.
            Of course you have - lol.

            Does the term "suck balls" refer to tea bagging?

            Rather than vote for candidates who often change their minds after having received campaign contributions, why not vote on issues? Why do politicians lie? Because they can.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 4:11pm

        Re: Re:

        Rand and Bernie are both pretty good candidates. One for either party you prefer.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:47am

      Re:

      Worthwhile? You realize that Bernie is a Democratic Socialists and so was the Nazi party? The fact that he one person of the year recently is a sad statement on the US. If the Dems win the next election, we will no longer be circling the drain, we will be flushed for good.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Dark Helmet (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:52am

        Re: Re:

        "Worthwhile? You realize that Bernie is a Democratic Socialists and so was the Nazi party?"

        You're fucking kidding me, right? The Nazis were NOT Democratic Socialists, they were National Socialist, from which they derive the Nazi name and also I hate you for being this stupid. The Nazis were a far right organization, on the other end of the political spectrum from Sanders and Democratic Socialists. Notable Democratic Socialists, other than Sanders, include:

        1. Christopher Hitchens
        2. Albert Fucking Einstein
        3. Bertrand Russell
        4. John Dewey
        5. David Ben-Gurion

        If you're any indication of the level of intellect of the American voter, however, we're all fucked and let's all welcome our winners from the Trump/Carson ticket and enjoy the disaster to come.

        Jesus fucking Christ....

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Lord_Unseen (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:54am

        Re: Re:

        "Worthwhile? You realize that Bernie is a Democratic Socialists but the Nazi party wasn't?"

        FTFY. The Nazis were National Socialists, not the same thing. I know we're on the internet and all, but would it kill you to at least try to get your facts straight before running your mouth?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          orbitalinsertion (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:23am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Never mind that something with the same description in a different culture, time, and place isn't the same as one with the same descriptive words elsewhere. Hell, it's like trying to play that continuity canard with Republican and Democrat parties of the Civil War era. "Republicans are the party of Lincoln!". *Snort*

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Wendy Cockcroft, 11 Dec 2015 @ 5:43am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Lincoln and Eisenhower would be dismissed as Liberal Socialists by the froth-mouthed members of today's GOP.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Klaus, 14 Dec 2015 @ 12:50am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              I'd even include Nixon - some of his policies were quite left of center compared to as you say "froth-mouthed members of today's GOP"...

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Baron von Robber, 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:56am

        Re: Re:

        Trump?! Is that you?!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:03am

        Re: Re:

        Another low information voter.

        No wonder some politicians are anti education, anti free speech and want to shutdown the internet.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:41am

        Re: Re:

        Perhaps you need to do a little research before making such stupid comments

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:07pm

        Re: Re:

        You realize that Bernie is a Democratic Socialists and so was the Nazi party?

        Yet the leading Republican candidate is arguing for making all Muslims register...kinda like the Jews had to when Hitler came into power.

        You are the epitome of what is wrong with the average voter - you use terms and have no idea what they mean.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 2:36pm

        Re: Re:

        Okay i'll bite. Actually 100% wrong. Hilter was a NATIONAL socialist (fascism, totally the opposite of any socialist ideals.). He despised democratic socialism (what bernie sanders represents) as expressed in mein kompf. But yeah single payer health care and free education = NAZISM. Someone should let Angela Merkel in Germany know that her political party is actually the Nazi party.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:38pm

        Re: Re:

        Nazis were National Socialists. Read a fucking book.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:41pm

        Re: Re:

        The amount of grammatical errors in your comment seems to be higher than your IQ.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        tiddyb (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:49pm

        Re: Re:

        Damn and I thought FDR was one of our best presidents. Didn't realize he was a Nazi when he was defeating the Nazi's. So weird. Much wow. You're illiterate. Bernie is like Sweden or FDR or Harry Truman. Trump is obviously, obviously, OBVIOUSLY, much more like the Nazi party than anyone in America has ever been.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          David, 9 Dec 2015 @ 3:56am

          Re: Re: Re:

          FDR was racist (just read up on Jesse Owen's treatment in Berlin and in Washington D.C.: pretty embarrassing when the U.S. president makes a stronger show of racism than Hitler). And antisemitism was a global phenomenon at the turn of the century and afterwards: just read up on Henry Ford.

          The U.S. was pretty fine with Hitler's persecution of the Jews. They could not really help getting involved when Hitler declared war on everyone, however.

          Afterwards, everybody in the world had been in the resistance and fond of Jews and democracy and oppressed by the Nazis. Including in Germany itself.

          Now of course it is nice that nobody identifies with that kind of ideology any more under its original name.

          But that does not particularly help against it returning under other names.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 12:24pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Actually the USA stayed out of it until they were actively attacked ... until then they were happily profiteering of the war, in fine Republican fashion.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2015 @ 2:44pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            And antisemitism was a global phenomenon at the turn of the century and afterwards ...

            There were plenty of racists, yes, but there were plenty of exceptions too. When the Allies stumbled into the death camps, Eisenhower and his staff were horrified, to the point of forcing the German people to go to the camps to see what their leaders had done in their name.

            Meanwhile, here we are in the 21st Century and the racists still run rampant. One of them's the GOP front runner. "Plus ca change, ..."

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        tiddyb (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:50pm

        Re: Re:

        Oh, also, the Democratic Socialist Party of Germany didn't come into power until 1969, so maybe you should learn how to read or something. By the way, James Bond is not actually about financial investments. I know that's hard to handle because Bond is in the name. But yeah, it's the truth.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Kek, 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:51pm

        Re: Re:

        You are a braindead moron.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Dodgec24, 8 Dec 2015 @ 4:48pm

        Re: Re:

        No the Nazis were not democratic socialists the Nazis sent democratic socialists to dachau immediately after taking power.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Benjamin James, 8 Dec 2015 @ 5:25pm

        Re: Re:

        Woah, saying socialists are Nazi's is like saying humans are chimps. Nazi's weren't socialists, they were totalitarians. Sender's is considered a radical while he's in the lime light but our government has elements of socialism and even communism that have worked out to the benefit of our citizens. Does that mean we should switch to a purely socialist or communist system? Of course not, it just means that a little bit of several ideologies seems to work best and is a sign of a healthier, more free country.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:49pm

        Re: Re:

        Democratic Socialism is not the same the Party of National Socialism.

        Carrot and Carrot Cake have more in common.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:00pm

        Re: Re:

        He was a national socialist.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        David Carrero, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:11pm

        Re: Re:

        The Nazis weren't Democratic Socialists. They were Nationalist Socialists (hence the shortened phrase "Nazi"). Believe it or not, there's actually a big difference there. Nationalism (and of course Imperialism) is why we had both World Wars; people willing to blindly follow their country because it's " clearly the best country in the world". It's actually pretty narcissistic if you think about it. Whether you agree with Bernie Sander's policies or not, his whole platform is essentially to better the lives of as many people as possible. The Nazis only cared about perfecting the Master "Arian" race and killing anyone who stood in their way.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 4:56am

          Re: Re: Re:

          you are aware of the fscked up situation Germans were under after WWI ?

          "The Nazis only cared about perfecting the Master "Arian" race and killing anyone who stood in their way."

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 3:29am

        Re: Re:

        You sir/ma'am, are a moron.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Db, 9 Dec 2015 @ 12:08pm

        Re: Re:

        You are the stupidest fucking human lmao

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        welp, 9 Dec 2015 @ 6:39pm

        Re: Re:

        Yes, please call the JEWISH, CIVIL RIGHTS LEADER WHO MARCHED WITH MLK a Nazi so as to show you truly do like huffing your own farts.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 5:52am

      Re:

      >TFW you don't really believe Bernie will win but WANT TO BELEIVE

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:57am

    We need MORE THINKING!!

    Think harder Silicon Valley - we reached the moon after all! How hard can this "math" stuff be?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:00am

    I'd crack a joke about if I see a Trump vs. Hillary for the next election that moving out of the country would be a good idea...

    ... but seriously, is there ANY place that isn't heading into similar dire straits?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:04am

      Re:

      I hear Antarctica is good this time of year...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:47am

        Re: Re:

        Antarctica? Well, down there they've got an unstoppable, monstrous, homicidal chameleon that can perfectly mimic a human being and is bent on taking over the world. So they've got politicians, too.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:33am

      Re:

      Dire straits? That's a little hyperbolic.

      I'm opposed to anything except strong encryption on principle. If those of us who feel this way lose this battle (and I'm pretty sure we are going to lose), then what's going to change?

      My predictions:

      1) Telecom companies and ISPs will keep doing what they are doing now and maintain databases of everything we do electronically and they will share this data when they have to.

      2) Mobile device companies like Apple and Google will hold on to a key that can be used to unlock your device when they are forced to do so.

      3) People that want to communicate privately will do so via downloadable apps.

      What will change? Nothing.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        indolent (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:37am

        Re: Re:

        "2) Mobile device companies like Apple and Google will hold on to a key that can be used to unlock your device when they are forced to do so.

        What will change? Nothing."

        Nothing will change? Adding back doors to encryption is nothing?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:26am

          Re: Re: Re:

          No, it isn't new.

          Up until fairly recently, Apple would unlock phones for law enforcement. Now they can't.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:15pm

        Re: Re:

        Mobile device companies like Apple and Google will hold on to a key that can be used to unlock your device when they are forced to do so.

        Apple won't even bother to do that. An order was issued to unlock a device over here https://ia601402.us.archive.org/34/items/gov.uscourts.wieb.358648/ and Apple has not complied.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 4:58am

        Re: Re:

        you need to jailbreak/root your smartphone to get the really private apps...
        or you think the apps you get AUTHORIZED by google and apple are safe?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:17pm

      Re:

      Russia's closed and Elon's not going to welcome the regular Joe aboard his Elysium flight no matter how much people fan-fap over him.

      Short of playing Russian roulette with a loaded chamber, no, there's really nowhere else you can go. Je Suis Zack Mayo.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 12:27pm

      Re:

      Nowhere that would take Americans as immigrants.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:05am

    Trump should just come out and say that he wants to build a wall around the Internet to keep out the Mexicans...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Ryunosuke, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:07am

    ACLU across the nation is gonna be busy

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:07am

    "...then we’ve got to shut off their means of communicating. It’s more complicated with some of what they do on encrypted apps, and I’m well aware of that, and that requires even more thinking about how to do it."

    This from the person who made the crack: 'Wipe the server? You mean with a cloth or something?' (http://news.sky.com/video/1538286/hillary-brushes-off-email-claims )

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    radix (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:17am

    Not to minimize deaths...

    This could come across wrong, but I do recognize that preventing one death is more important than saving a few dollars.

    With that said, when you combine just 8-10 of the biggest data breaches over the last 5 years, you get over 500 million records compromised, at the cost of 10's of billions of dollars to clean up.

    World's Biggest Data Breaches

    You are literally millions of times more likely to be a victim of poor data security than good data security. And if security is millions of times more important than freedom (to balance that equation), then you might as well put a government minder on every street corner and government cameras in every house. "Big Brother is Doubleplusgood."

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Ryunosuke, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:22am

      Re: Not to minimize deaths...

      But ... but encryption is bad and only terrorists use them, right?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:46am

        Re: Re: Not to minimize deaths...

        If the encryption you use isn't the same as the encryption terrorists and pedophiles use, your encryption isn't good enough.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        DR Darke, 19 Jan 2016 @ 1:06am

        Re: Re: Not to minimize deaths...

        But ... but encryption is bad and only terrorists use them, right?



        Well, my bank and the NSA use encryption, @Ryunosuke....

        By Jupiter! You're Right! Only Terrorists use encryption!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:20am

    It's worse than it seems

    These two are currently campaigning for votes at the opposite ends of the political spectrum so this is a bad idea that is apparently popular enough the candidates think it will get votes from both the right and left.
    I hope the center is smarter than this.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:20am

    Both of them are technological retards that have very limited understand of how the internet works. No credibility what so ever.

    They are the type of people that call their kids to say there is something wrong with the internet when they accidentally deleted the shortcut from their desktop.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Eric, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:46am

    Logic...

    Bad people used guns to commit crime..."We CANNOT regulate guns to stop this..."
    Bad people used the internet to commit crime..."We MUST regulate free speech/the internet to stop this..."

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:26am

      Re: Logic...

      It's really a stupidly simple explanation.

      There is no Internet lobby.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Tsukee, 9 Dec 2015 @ 8:16am

      Re: Logic...

      Bad people used guns to commit crime..."We CANNOT regulate guns to stop this..."
      Bad people used the internet to commit crime..."We MUST regulate free speech/the internet to stop this..."


      Makes perfect sense. In this age you do not fight a fucked up government with guns, but free speech, so no shit they are scared of it. But they want to keep guns, so people have a fake sense of "if shit hits the fan, I can still use my peashooter"....

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:17am

    Apparently, no one wants the First Amendment.

    The Europeans don't want anyone to talk about Nazi history, or to criticize one another; they order Google to take down links to true (=non-libelous) facts.

    The universities don't want to allow free speech, because someone might be offended; "trigger warnings" are required for "microaggressions".

    [I wish I could make this stuff up.]

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Kaiser, 9 Dec 2015 @ 4:11am

      Re: Apparently, no one wants the First Amendment.

      You don't need to wish for that, you just did!
      Europe does more talking about their Nazi history than is actually warrented, especially Germany btw.

      I don't know of any highly regarded european University that gave in to the overly PC environment from the USA

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Tsukee, 9 Dec 2015 @ 8:38am

      Re: Apparently, no one wants the First Amendment.

      Agree on everything else but this

      "The Europeans don't want anyone to talk about Nazi history, or to criticize one another; "

      The Nazi history is still often talked about, even too much I would argue. Its history most of it is agreed upon, but is still used as a political argument way too many times.

      In countries that were "occupied" by Nazi they still argue about collaborators and "liberation force".

      In Germany they are still shamed about it on every step of their education.

      UK and US still beat their chests at every occasion for the "glorious win against forces of evil" and compare it to every new upcoming invasion of another country: "this is the hitler of "

      And not to even fucking begin with Israel, its like their de-facto tool to use in every fucking negotiation "We have the right to do genocide on Palestine, because we were victim of one"

      (ya I know I was not limited to Europe)

      I do agree we should never forget WW2 but I think we should slowly start to acknowledge that things are not (especially in war) black and white, good or evil. And stop at "Shit happened, we should never let it happen again".

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    orbitalinsertion (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:30am

    But if we truly are in a war against terrorism


    Ah hah! Busted. No you aren't. Can we drop all the other bullshit now?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Rekrul, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:15am

    Politicians have been spitting on the Constitution for years, this is just the first time that they're being open about it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:19pm

      Re:

      If ol' Alex Hamilton could see how far we've strayed from the Constitution, he'd forget all about Burr and shoot himself.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Brent Ashley (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:30am

    Just Deserts

    The American public, for better or worse, through their election process will get exactly the President they deserve. Let's hope they deserve better than these particular candidates.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 12:13pm

      Re: Just Deserts

      This is such bullshit.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Brent Ashley (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 2:11pm

        Re: Re: Just Deserts

        How is it bullshit? The sentiment works no matter which side you're on.

        By whatever measure you want, if America elects someone who proves undesirable, it's because a) they wanted that person and their values or b) their system has become broken and it allowed the undesirable candidate to win despite their collective will, in which case they are the authors of (i.e. are deserving of) their failure.

        If America elects someone who turns out to be good for them, it will be because they succeeded despite extreme obstacles and they will deserve their success. If this new leader manages to lead a corrective path (for any of a number of definitions of corrective), all the more deserving.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Vel the Enigmatic, 8 Dec 2015 @ 2:15pm

          Re: Re: Re: Just Deserts

          More like they voted for the person because they said one thing and did another entirely the majority of the time.

          Don't you know how much politicians get their votes?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 5:51pm

          Re: Re: Re: Just Deserts

          Has anyone ever tracked political campaign promises over the decades and whether those promises were met while that person was in office?

          Even if the number of kept campaign promises were at 75%, the fact that voters used the promises as a guide in their decisions means they expected something other than what was delivered . - But according to you they got what they deserved. I'm not sure if this is because they were not clairvoyant and therefore unable to see the promises were lies or whether it is because they simply deserve to be kicked around - you know cause it makes you feel better about yourself.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Brent Ashley (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:42pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Just Deserts

            I see, you read my use of "deserved" as me righteously telling them off for their potential failure, whereas I meant it more as a straight analysis of cause and effect without judgement attached. I should have anticipated your reading of it; it's a loaded word.

            My point was meant to be that the American political and power distribution system seems to have strayed off course. American society can collectively do something to correct the trajectory or they can allow it to career further on its current path, and the outcome and their fortunes will depend on the electorate's own efforts and ability (or not) to turn it around.

            In Canada, we have recently seen a shift in the political winds, brought on largely by the population deciding against one style of politics and opting for another. We too in the scheme of things will get the government we deserve, and I hope it's worthy of the faith that has been put in it.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Kal Zekdor (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 8:47pm

          Re: Re: Re: Just Deserts

          It's bullshit because no one "deserves" anything. There's no shadowy overlord dictating that this year Americans have been good little boys and girls and thus deserve a better government as a reward.

          We have the government we have because we have the government we have. It is a tautology, and there is no meaning to be drawn from any of it.

          Come back when you actually have some ideas on how to make the government better, even slightly. Until then, all you're spouting is defeatism and victim blaming, and I would respectfully ask that you shut the fuck up, as you're part of the problem.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Brent Ashley (profile), 11 Dec 2015 @ 11:39am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Just Deserts

            I'm a bit confused by your response in that it draws meaning from my statement that wasn't expressed or intended and then takes affront and chides me for that very thing.

            Again, I grant that "deserves" is loaded so as a consequence of creating a brief and glib quote I failed in expressing blunt tautology rather than pointed blame. Sorry bout that.

            I am not spouting defeatism - my point is that the outcome can and hopefully will be more positive than current prevailing opinion projects

            If the outcome is negative, attributing the cause to those who steered the outcome in that direction is not victim blaming. Perhaps the system as become broken enough that no steering will be enough. I hope not.

            The reason I haven't made direct suggestions on making the government better is that as I'm not American it is not my place to lecture. I'm not telling you what to do, I'm indirectly suggesting that analyzing cause and effect is part of the solution, since I have observed that "more of the same" does not usually turn things around when current practices have been proven not to work.

            I'm still optimistic that America can find a positive path through the political minefield.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 11:35am

    Facebook should get together with Trump and Clinton, and present the plan they already put together to close up the internet. It's called "internet.org".

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Steve (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 12:22pm

    How do you tell what the people in charge actually want? Simply by looking at what both "parties" agree on. This simply highlights that there is nobreal choice, with the only differences being things that don't matter to those actually running things, but we all seem convinced are the real issues.

    The objective js to shut down the means of dissent, prior to the shitstorm that is about to hit.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 12:59pm

    i think hillary is trying to be the democrat's trump card.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:29pm

    Is there any concrete evidence that back doors to encryption for use by US law enforcement stifles free speech?

    Real, concrete evidence only, please.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:46pm

      Re:

      People tend to be careful what they say when they realize the government may be reading or listening to what they say.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 2:55pm

      Re:

      Is there any concrete evidence that back doors to encryption for use by US law enforcement stifles free speech?


      These are two separate issues.

      Issue 1 is backdooring encryption (which is not a free speech issue, but a security/privacy issue). Issue 2 is demanding internet censorship, which is a free speech issue.

      Sorry if it wasn't clear in the article.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 4:30pm

      Re:

      What evidence would you accept? Outside of people explicitly declaring it stifles/chills their freedom of speech, the only other evidence would be defined by a *lack* of speech that used to take place.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      alternatives(), 8 Dec 2015 @ 4:51pm

      Re:

      Real, concrete evidence only, please.

      If I tie this around a cinder block and toss it through your window, would that qualify?

      "Back doors to encryption cause me to not use some of my free speech rights."

      Do give the address where I can deliver this concrete example concern-troll.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 5:54pm

      Re:

      well, since free speech means just about anything these days ...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      DirtBag, 9 Dec 2015 @ 9:01am

      Re:

      You miss the point. A backdoor allowing government entry can just as easily be used by hackers to also gain entry.

      Unless you believe the key vault at Apple is secure... which they claimed their cloud storage was at one point.

      Just a bad idea all the way around. We invent the worlds best technology but won't allow it to be used because an extremist minority may gain an advantage.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    I'm Awake, 8 Dec 2015 @ 1:58pm

    There is no "safe" way to enable a backdoor in encryption that only the government can use. It will be found and exploited. The effect will be to make all of us more prone to cyber attacks.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      David, 9 Dec 2015 @ 4:45am

      Re:

      They are not really asking about a backdoor. They are asking about a frontdoor with a key reserved to government use. It's not a matter of finding the backdoor. It's a matter of getting the key. If the stuff is really well-designed, the key cannot be "found". However, this sort of concept does not work for practical purposes if said key and/or an unlocking service is not available to thousands of users. A red telephone approach where the key will only get used in cases of actual national emergency instead of on a pretend contingency basis is not what the involved agencies could reasonably work with.

      And with a key/unlock mechanism distributed as widely as that, it's not feasible to prevent it getting out of hand.

      And of course, that's when assuming that the authorized persons use it for legal purposes, and the track record of them is really, really, really bad. And they derive a lot of unconstitutional powers and activities from it already.

      So even when working as fantasized, it is a really, really bad idea.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Yep, 8 Dec 2015 @ 2:02pm

    The current internet is doomed.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    tiddyb (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 3:52pm

    Has anyone else mentioned how shitty and biased this article is? I didn't realize that we weren't having a primary election. It's just Hilary and Trump, there is not one other single option and definitely not any person who sponsors Net Neutrality. Oh Wait, Bernie Sanders does.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    John85851 (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 4:47pm

    The Amendments

    I know this may be a little off-topic, but it's very interesting (or scary, depending on how you look at it) that people seem quick to break the constitution amendments in the Bill of Rights to get back at terrorists... except one. Can you guess which?

    1: We can't let terrorists have the right to free speech.
    3: (Quartering soldiers doesn't apply.)
    4: We have to search everyone in case they might be a terrorist.
    5: Terrorists don't deserve due process and they should give up information on themselves (preferably under torture) for everyone's good.
    6: Terrorists don't deserve lawyers or a fair trial. We know they're terrorists and that's good enough.
    7: (Right to a trial by jury in civil cases doesn't apply.)
    8: Languishing in a prison cell without a trial isn't considered cruel and unusual punishment at all.
    9 and 10: (Don't apply.)

    That leaves us with the 2nd Amendment:
    Why, yes, anyone can have a gun. We'd never dream of stepping on anyone's rights.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:08pm

      Re: The Amendments

      Where have you been? the 2nd amendment comes up without fail after every attack be it staged or real lunatics.

      sometimes the argument comes up without any reason too.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Mitch Altman, 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:07pm

    How on this earth can they say " bad people use the internet to do bad things so we need to control it" but not see the logical connection to "bad people use guns to do bad things so we need to control that too"?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 7:45pm

      Re:

      The same way encryption would still be used by the Government after making it 'illegal' for citizens - just like gun violence is OK if its the Government doing it via drones or off in a distant land.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 8 Dec 2015 @ 9:59pm

    the leading candidates openly mocking their voting supporters and people are still supporting them.

    I wonder if this will be what pushes people over the edge to take back control of this almost completely corrupt government. To have a president that openly mocks the public

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      tqk (profile), 9 Dec 2015 @ 2:20pm

      Re:

      I wonder if this will be what pushes people over the edge to take back control of this almost completely corrupt government.

      I have this vision of the winner at the swearing in ceremony, where thousands stand up chanting, "Liar, liar, pants on fire!" Should make for great reality tv, watching the SS drag them all away to waiting paddy-wagons.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Frost (profile), 8 Dec 2015 @ 10:43pm

    Maybe Americans have wised up?

    Yes, the President is a figurehead but he or she does still have the veto and is the leader of their respective party. I'm hoping Democrats will see Clinton for the war-mongering pro-corporate hawk she truly is and vote for the sane alternative, Bernie Sanders. Sure, Bernie would be fighting an uphill battle against everybody including the Democrats, but at least he'd have the visibility and authority behing the Presidency to do it with.

    Trump, well, the man is a clown and a buffoon and not very competent. It's not that hard to get rich when daddy hands you millions and say go play. What's amazing is that he managed to fuck it up several times by bankruptcies...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 7:26am

    Relax

    Homey don't code. Homey will get what we give him.

    The ability to code is to the modern era, is what reading and writing was in the 18th century. What the aristocracy doesn't get, is that they are no longer the literate ones in this society.

    Innovation is antithetical to tyranny. Anyone who has written anything that was useful and compiled, has run up against these guys at some point. And most of us have an axe to grind. It isn't so much a vendetta, as a grievous sorrow over the harm caused by their narcissism.

    So relax and support civil revolt through superior software engineering. Eventually, we will fulfill the promise the T-shirt fortold: "Go away, or I will replace you with a very small bash script"

    Overturn Citizens United. Repeal Glass Steagall. Bust the Trusts.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    AnonCow, 9 Dec 2015 @ 9:04am

    After watching that clip yesterday, I emailed the Clinton campaign that they had lost my vote because of that speech. Then I went to the Bernie Sanders website and donated money.

    I'll take my chances with Bernie losing to a Republican rather than vote for someone who is a Democrat in name only.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Free Speech 2nd amendment 2 guy, 9 Dec 2015 @ 9:25am

    New World Order

    The new world order is also at war with America.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 10:42am

    The Solution

    vote bernie sanders, simple as that

    hillary and the other repubs won't give you free speech; bernie will and he's been fighting for it since the goddamn 1960s

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    crade (profile), 9 Dec 2015 @ 2:56pm

    If we are in a war on terror, whose side are the fud mongerers on?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 5:25pm

    It is almost like the same people are telling them both what to say...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    welp, 9 Dec 2015 @ 6:41pm

    When brown guys in the Middle East call for restricting internet access, we call them dictators. When white guys in the West call for it, it's called "fighting terrorism".

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 9 Dec 2015 @ 7:04pm

    The War on Encryption? Don't sweat it guys, it is only a police action, they haven't instated Marshall Law, which might actually be a good thing. Our congress doesn't have the integrity to declare war, they will let the president get blood on his hands. And if it all goes wrong our congress will have someone to point the finger at. Heaven forbid they would take responsibility for anything. The day is nigh when the future will be left to those of us willing to get our hands dirty.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 4:40am

    Point of order: Trump is not the Republican front-runner, Rubio is. Poll numbers are for the birds. Trump has never been shorter than 3/1 to win the Republican race, and is 10/1 to be the POTUS.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 5:05am

    the problem with ACTUALLY READING the book mein kampf
    is that you will quickly notice that every candidate not only agrees but is citing the book line by line.

    Hillary, Trump, Sanders et all

    and that could wake up a sheep,
    scary

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 5:10am

      Re:

      and let`s not talk about
      Henry Ford
      IBM
      homeland security heimatschutz
      enhanced interrogation Verschärfte Vernehmung
      project paperclip
      Horten 9
      the 150 tons of patents
      NASA

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Dec 2015 @ 2:21am

      Re:

      Bernie Sanders does not agree and is not citing the book with it

      Bernie Sanders is are only hope vote for him!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Dec 2015 @ 2:24am

      Re:

      and can you tell me were Bernie Sanders has agrees or is citing the book line by line? you find he has not stop with the lies

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 5:14am

    no nation won the WWII

    they all merged into the industrial military complex we have today

    we have been fooled

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 10 Dec 2015 @ 9:03am

    evil usually takes form in human skin and is suppose to be hidden from all including themselves however seeing two being of that shows proof they should not be aloud in any government position. If they shut down the internet they will only create more domestic terrorism to fight against, because our world is now too reliant on the internet than ever shutting it down will set us back centuries of progress putting us back to the 20th or so centuries.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
  • identicon
    Just passin' thru, 12 Dec 2015 @ 1:16am

    Trump and Clinton

    Face it. If it comes down to these two, Clinton will be the next president. Why? Just two words:

    Electoral College

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Monday (profile), 14 Dec 2015 @ 8:05am

    The Power of POTUS...

    I usually laugh off people who get deeply scared about one person or another winning the Presidency, as they usually overestimate how much power the President really has.


    I get that. I really do, but as POTUS, that's the tangible remainder of any Presidency. It says a / that specific something about a people, in regards to whom gets elected, and what they will be able to achieve in four years.

    I wonder just what kind of meeting the Republicans will have on election night, 2016, when they see the inevitable conclusion of politics in America 'til 2024, AT LEAST, and the panic attacks actually start taking over.

    Every reporter on Earth, is now aware of those Republicans, and their secret meeting addressing the fall, or how they could stump, or stomp, POTUS at every turn. It was during that fateful election night of 2008, and then again when G.O.P. Romney crashed and burned in 2012 and the really horrible horror ;)with a side of more panic attacks set in with the re-election of that "Black President".

    One thing that we, all of us, can be certain of, is the GOP has not even begun to put the, always useful, always hilarious, and verging on obligatory, foot in the mouth.

    Nevertheless, POTUS does have tons of power. Be respectful of the Office. When's the last time you heard Darrell Issa's name in the news??? ;>D

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Cooper's Loincloth (Anonymous Coward), 14 Dec 2015 @ 8:54am

    Socialist differentiation

    National Socialist = Right wing socialism
    Democratic Socialist = Left wing socialism

    Both groups believe in the supremacy of the state over personal freedom, but each approach it from a different direction.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    tqk (profile), 14 Dec 2015 @ 10:49am

    "National" vs. "Democratic" socialism.

    National Socialist = Right wing socialism
    Democratic Socialist = Left wing socialism

    No.

    National Socialist = Our country and its people are better than other countries and their (so-called) people who are demonstrably inferior lifeforms who can't be trusted and need to be subjugated else they'll steal all our stuff and probably hurt us. You can trust our gov't to protect you from them because we're your gov't and we care about you and we know what's right. Honest! Trust us, or we'll kill you.

    Democratic Socialism = "We The People ..." rule by popular vote electing representatives to form a gov't limited to specific defined functions and limits.

    NS is stupid and in most cases leads to corruption enriching the rulers, tyrannical overreach and even genocide by its gov't over those ruled.

    DS may eventually be found to be workable, if only we can figure out how to make that "limited to specific defined functions and limits" work, which we're at present nowhere near solving despite the thousands of years we've worked on it.

    HTH.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Cooper's Loincloth (Anonymous Coward), 14 Dec 2015 @ 3:50pm

    NS vs. DS

    Yes.

    National Socialism is domination of the individual by a select group who enforce their will on the entire populace in the name of the state, which is an extreme right wing socialist philosophy.

    Democratic Socialism is the domination of the individual by an elected group who enforce their will on the entire population in the name of the state, which is an extreme left wing socialist philosophy.


    Your choices in socialism are tyranny by the bosses (NS) vs. tyranny by the masses (DS). You can argue their motivations all you want, but the end result is the same. Either one sucks if you aren't one of the chosen few who make the rules.

    Interestingly enough, you can compare the two extremes in their enforcement methods - both focus on demonizing those who don't follow the party line and marginalizing their identity and worth as human beings. One just focuses on homogenized outward characteristics like appearance or religion, while the other enforces thought and behavior compliance.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


Add Your Comment

Have a Techdirt Account? Sign in now. Want one? Register here
Get Techdirt’s Daily Email
Use markdown for basic formatting. HTML is no longer supported.
  Save me a cookie
Follow Techdirt
Techdirt Gear
Shop Now: Techdirt Logo Gear
Advertisement
Report this ad  |  Hide Techdirt ads
Essential Reading
Techdirt Deals
Report this ad  |  Hide Techdirt ads
Techdirt Insider Chat
Advertisement
Report this ad  |  Hide Techdirt ads
Recent Stories
Advertisement
Report this ad  |  Hide Techdirt ads

Close

Email This

This feature is only available to registered users. Register or sign in to use it.