Christian Nationalists And Bigots Stump For Ken Paxton In SCOTUS Age Verification Case
from the the-real-agenda dept
Scores of organizations from across the anti-pornography movement have filed amicus briefs supporting the state of Texas and Attorney General Ken Paxton in a U.S. Supreme Court case dealing with his state’s draconian age verification law. In 2023, members of the Texas legislature adopted House Bill (HB) 1181, which explicitly singles out online adult platforms by requiring age-gating measures and health “warning labels.”
The Fifth Circuit erred in its ruling on HB 1181. Instead of applying strict scrutiny to review the law’s implications on protected speech, the court applied rational basis review, a lower standard of review. Since HB 1181 is a content restriction that censors speech the First Amendment otherwise protects, Supreme Court precedent says it should apply strict scrutiny. This error by the appeals court was so concerning that outgoing U.S. Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar filed an amicus brief supporting vacatur, asking the court to send this case back to the Fifth for the application of strict scrutiny.
However, this common sense approach is missing among those supporting Paxton’s defense of the law at the Supreme Court. A review of the amicus briefs on the docket supporting Paxton reveals a who’s who of censorial social conservatives and populists. Not surprisingly, the Age Verification Providers Association (AVPA) filed an amicus brief supporting Paxton. AVPA is a trade group representing companies, such as Yoti, that develop and market age verification software to clients, including online pornography companies.
Another amicus filing is led by 24 predominantly Republican state attorneys general who believe that legal pornography isn’t necessarily entitled to First Amendment protection. They argue that this type of expression pushes the so-called “ambit” of what falls under the First Amendment’s compass.
The attorneys general additionally argue:
“Texas’s law just requires the online equivalent and likewise has no constitutional defect…”
“Moving the strip club and adult bookstore online does not mean that commercial pornographers may escape regulation…The internet poses no barrier to States exercising their historic power to require age verification as a predicate to accessing adult content and activities.”
The attorneys general insinuate that pornography companies are attempting to skirt regulatory and legal commitments. Unfortunately, they urge the high court to simply overlook decades of its own precedent on First Amendment case law. Doing so would be irresponsible and plays into the hands of critics of the legal pornography industry who wish to see this entertainment sector censored entirely.
Meanwhile a set of Republicans in Congress, led by Sens. Mike Lee and Josh Hawley, call internet porn a “plague” in their filing. Most of the lawmakers attached to this brief include less-than-serious politicos like Lauren Boebert and Dan Crenshaw, who are often tied to Christian nationalist causes. Similar to the attorneys general, the MAGA members of Congress offer an outlandish explanation on current First Amendment case law.
They argue:
“Petitioners contend that a law banning child access to pornography must be evaluated under the same tier of scrutiny as a law banning the access of adults. This argument has no merit. Wherever the law draws a distinction between adults and children, adults will shoulder the modest burden of showing some proof of their age.”
This irony shouldn’t be lost upon you. Here, these lawmakers, elected by people who entrust them to protect their interests, outwardly believe that an adult lacks the right to privacy and anonymity for simply looking at age-restricted content. And, in no way, does such a sentiment supersede the rights of adults or minors. For example, Josh Hawley falls squarely in the camp that thinks LGBTQ young adult literature is “pornographic” and should be subject to similar content restrictions. Applying such a broad assumption undermines the level of safety and concern these lawmakers claim to have. It is also some of the lawmakers attached to this amicus who believe stupid concepts like how big tech makes minors gay or trans on purpose.
Other amicus filings by parties supporting Paxton are just as ill-informed. One group that filed in support of Paxton is the so-called “child’s rights” group known as Them Before Us. Founded by the conservative journalist Katy Faust, this group is on the cutting edge of transphobic campaigning and pseudoscientific fearmongering about IVF and surrogacy. Faust’s group says they “[protect] every child’s right to their mother and father,” and they do so by repeating bigoted tropes about trans people.
Also on the docket is an amicus filing led by the Council on Pornography Reform, which washed-up former child actor Ricky Schroder founded and leads. Schroder’s group, the Public Advocate of the United States and other ultraconservative legal funds further spew the weak legal argument that “freedom of expression” is anathema and that the First Amendment should only apply to “political speech.” I covered these nonsense peddlers for Techdirt before.
Fun fact: the Public Advocate of the United States is classified by the Southern Poverty Law Center as an anti-LGBTQ+ hate group. This is also true for several other groups that filed amicus briefs supporting Paxton’s defense of rational review.
Organizations tied to Project 2025, the Heritage Foundation’s policy platform for Donald Trump’s second term, also filed amicus briefs for Paxton.
As a reminder, the Heritage Foundation president, Kevin Roberts, called for pornographers to be imprisoned and for the First Amendment rights of porn companies, LGBTQ+ activists, and teachers to be revoked via his foreword in Project 2025’s policy treatise, Mandate for Leadership.
Christian nationalist groups are in full force here.
Paxton’s defense of HB 1181 is being defended by people you’d expect to support anti-pornography laws, in general. These amicus briefs highlight the true intention behind the anti-porn movement: to remove anything remotely sexual, even if it’s legally not pornography, from the culture by any means necessary. Age verification might be argued as a child protection measure by the vast majority of these folks. But, as discussed here and by their own admission, that’s just lies.
Michael McGrady covers the tech and legal sides of the online porn business.
Filed Under: age verification, amicus briefs, free speech, ken paxton, pornography, supreme court
Companies: age verification providers association, avpa, free speech coalition, public advocate of the united states, them before us


Comments on “Christian Nationalists And Bigots Stump For Ken Paxton In SCOTUS Age Verification Case”
See, these are the kinds of Christians who deserve to be insulted.
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you lost lol
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Two things.
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You did too. You’re not a member of the club just because you voted for their interests.
A blind man who doesn’t see he’s being robbed probably shouldn’t be bragging about voting for the robbers.
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FYI, a person doesn’t have to be blind to not see they’re being robbed. Look at the American electorate in 2016 for a case in point.
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That’s fucking pathetic, especially coming from a self described goat fucker.
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Lost faith in idiots like you, yes!
It would be fun
To take this Law/regulation To the people to Vote on.
That totally makes sense, from start to end, if and only if you’ve lived under a rock at the bottom of a lake in Pluto for the last 30 years and just discover internet yesterday.
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Lets hope SCOTUS isn’t gonna act like they’ve been living under said rock. Otherwise I’m not sure how one could challenge these laws in the future ever again.
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SCOTUS has done well when it comes to first amendment rights.
But still.
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Yeah. I’d love to be able to say they’d strike down Paxton’s with guarantee, the last few years have all but murdered my ability to believe in anything with certainty.
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Well, you’ll never know what will happen. 🤷🍷
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The Internet may not pose a barrier.
Neverminding the Fist Amendment, The fact that the porn server may be well outside of their jurisdiction, does.
This case scares me still. If SCOTUS rules in Paxton’s favor, I imagine it’ll be difficult to stop bills like Texas’, let alone strike down those already in effect..
But SCOTUS has usually been pretty okay-ish on first amendment issues so far, but I don’t feel like believing in good outcomes is a good idea anymore, seems to only guarantee bad results.
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I agree. 👍
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It’s ironic, because I know my thoughts don’t affect reality, and yet I’m still afraid of affecting it by believing in good outcomes to things like these.
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Well tbf, SCOTUS may be corrupt but they’re still the supreme court, I imagine making a good legal argument still matters.
https://www.techdirt.com/2024/12/02/christian-nationalists-and-bigots-stump-for-ken-paxton-in-scotus-age-verification-case/#comment-4192818
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Well, it does — but only when they don’t find it too inconvenient to stick to basic legal principles.
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Prayer doesn’t change shit; think good thoughts all you want.
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You know, that’d probably be better for me in the long run, come to think of it.
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It will be better.
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I agree with this.
If they rule in Paxton’s favor, wouldn’t it also remove all chances of KOSA getting blocked in court?
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No, because it depends on how its ruled.
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True, KOSA does contain a whole lot more than just age verification stuff (which isn’t the absolute worst outcome to be stuck with, all things considered.)
There’s 27 amicuses that support Paxton vs 12 that support Free Speech Coalition.
Has there ever been a victory that had this much amicuses stacked?
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It’s not like there isn’t time for more amicus briefs, you know.
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Good point.
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Another factor is that it seems a decent portion of the MAGA-type amicus briefs are pure nonsense.
SCOTUS may be corrupt but they’re still the supreme court, I imagine making a good legal argument still matters.
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👍
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Alito and Clarence are dog water, but the rest will at least try to rationalize there positions from a foundational method, as opposed to a post hoc.
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Agreed.
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Amicus briefs have historically been influential based on their argument rather than the amount of them, but the Supreme Court is still human and susceptible to pressure. If enough voices rush in screaming the same thing at you, no matter what it is, it’s likely going to influence you in some way, which in this case is clearly the intent.
Regardless, though, I suggest learning from the election: consider that your absolute worst case scenario is likely going to happen in this case, and work from there. Even if the Supreme Court has a sane ruling on this case, as unlikely as it is, it isn’t going to stop the people involved in this, as evidenced by them pushing stuff that goes against previous Supreme Court precedent anyway.
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Well that’s not very uplifting.
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I know it’s not, but as many a Techdirt article has gone over, we’re not talking about people who would go ‘I’m sorry, my bad’ if you told them ‘hey, you can’t do that’. Them rushing the Supreme Court with amicus briefs over a subject that’s admittedly kind of politically niche does indicate (to me, a layman, not an expert) that this has more to do with shouting down resistance than it does thinking it’ll foil their plans. Well, maybe Yoti, they want that sweet government contract money, but everybody else?
Case in point, bill SB199, which just does away with verification and tries to ban it outright. Politicians and AGs can always introduce and push for these kinds of laws some other way or without the Supreme Court’s approval (or disapproval). I’m not saying this to be dismissive, I dearly want to believe the Supreme Court gets it together – but it doesn’t hurt to be wary of a worst case scenario.
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My mind has been nothing but worst case scenarios.
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Then I might as well stop caring, since they’re gonna have it their way no matter what anyway.
Only a matter of time before there’s nothing left.
Re: Re: Re:3
There are two kinds of hope. The sentimental kind is a naïve projection of positivity (“everything will be okay, all you have to do is think happy thoughts”). The real kind comes from feeling the full weight of despair (“shit sucks…”), then doing good anyway (“…but still I charge forward”). Sentimental hope prays in the darkness; real hope lights a candle.
Re: Re: Re:4
👍
I agree!
Re: Re: Re:5
You know, this feels like a form of trolling—and if it isn’t, it’s still about as tiresome as the shit actual trolls post.
Re: Re: Re:6
Ok, tbf, i honestly wasn’t trolling, but i’m a person that prefers to say a few words.
That said, i will occasionally say much more. Like in this case. And/or occasionally use emojis.
I apologize if you thought i was trolling.
Re: Re: Re:4
Optimistic Nihilism
Re: Re: Re:5
I sincerely doubt that’s optimistic nihilism, but ymmv.
Re: Re: Re:6
That doesn’t make sense. It’s optimistic nihilism because that’s the term someone made up as a label for that perspective. It’s a subjective label for a subjective perspective. Doubting it is like accusing someone else of lying when they say they like chocolate ice cream.
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So it’s hopeless? I’ve not been feeling good because of this, feels like there’s no point anymore
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Depends on what your definition of “hope” is. If you’re thinking of the “everything will be okay with a snap of the fingers/a prayer to God/some other bit of magic” kind of hope? Your hope is dead. If you’re thinking of the “yes, shit sucks, but we carry on despite that” kind of hope? Your hope is alive and well.
Let’s examine a situation that has a lot of people scared: Trump’s threat to deport millions of people. He has recently expanded those threats to deporting children born in the U.S. to undocumented immigrants (i.e., children who are legal citizens) and finding a way to ban birthright citizenship. So what happens if he issues an executive order that bans those children from having birth certificates and Social Security numbers? Do you think he signs that order and everything promptly goes to hell?
The real answer: No, it doesn’t. States issue birth certificates and not all states collect citizenship information. Trump would have to persuade every state to both collect citizenship information and stop issuing birth certificates. That shit isn’t going to happen. He might get some states to coöperate via passing laws to collect that info and such, but he won’t get all of them to help him.
On top of that, the Social Security Administration only issues new SSNs after receiving the relevant information from the state agencies that handle vital records. The process currently doesn’t require an SSN from the parents. The SSA would need to develop a new process requiring states to collect that information. And if the SSA stopped issuing SSNs, it could face (among other obstacles) lawsuits from state Attorneys General and Democrat-run states deciding to only transmit SSN applications when the citizenship of the parents is known while still issuing birth certificates as normal.
Trump can make all the grand pronouncements he wants. But specific steps need to happen for any of those orders to actually happen in full. Therein lies the hope: Every step offers a chance for patchwork implementations and a lot of legal vulnerability, both of which can throw a wrench in the gears of his fascist machine. Not everyone is going to (or should) coöperate with Trump, and so long as they keep fighting however they can, Trump wil; never accomplish everything he promised to do. Hell, there’s a good chance that if his policies do hurt people in places where Trump is popular, good politics can sway those people to think less of Trump, the GOP, and their policies.
All of which is to say: Even if an age verification law passes, that doesn’t mean it’s Game Over, No Continues, Everyone’s Out of Chances. The people who have the ability to (try to) overturn that law will keep doing that work, whether that’s mounting legal challenges or trying to change people’s minds about such laws. If you can’t do that work, you can support those who can—and you can direct other people into giving their support to the cause. Yes, shit sucks, but you can either curse the darkness or light a candle. Try picking the one that will actually accomplish something.
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Yeah, perhaps I’m just overthinking things from being too terminally online lately (was laid off recently so I have too much free time than usual) and maybe things WONT get as bad as many here (including me) think it will. I guess it’s just hard to feel optimistic nowadays but there is light in the darkness
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I’m terminally online and even I’m not as much of a doomer as you seem to be. Catastrophizing about everything and thinking the worst will always happen isn’t doing you any favors.
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Same here!
I think most of the pro texas amicus briefs are pretty weak, as they all fail to actually discuss any of the legal issues at hand.
Take for example the one third clause, it easy to see how we can apply to a reno v aclu, than ginsburg.
As were asking to pg the entire internet
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They ramble on a lot about how they think things should work, but without taking precedent, let alone what the first amendment covers, into the equation.
Even moral panic bullshittery has its limits.
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Agreed.
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Your bias is ahowing
Christian nationalism is bad but atheist nationalism is apparently good.
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Well, yeah.
Because that’s basically true, looking at how christian nationalists have been acting.
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Mocking Christian nationalists for their fascism isn’t advocacy for nationalism of any other religion (including atheism). It’s trying to keep conservative Christian bullshit from becoming the law under which everyone else has to live by. If conservative Christian adults want to avoid porn, they have plenty of ways to do that—so why should they get to force everyone else to live under the rules/beliefs in which conservative Christians abide?
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Except for the ruling in 303 Creative v. Elenis, which was a fake case involving a fake gay couple and fake websites, all brought forth by Christian Nationalists and Bigots.
That bit of Christian Nationalism is somehow good in the eyes of liberals because “on paper”, the victims of the bigots and Christian Nationalists have the same rights to refuse service. Even though the reality is that if an LGBTQ+ person tried to refuse expressive services to a Christian person under the ruling, they’d have their business or their house (maybe both) burnt to the ground by a lynch mob and the lynch mob would face no consequences.
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I get that you’re angry, and believe it or not, I share the same worry. But legally speaking, I rather like the idea that the government doesn’t (and shouldn’t) have the power to compel speech—commercial or otherwise—from anyone, including the privileged.
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Here’s the deal: You and others gave your explicit support to a lawsuit brought forth by a Christian Nationalist organization, and explicitly support a ruling that you damn well know is going to benefit ONLY the privileged for years and years to come. We saw the start of it with that 11th Circuit decision. Own up to that every time the 303 Creative decision puts a roadblock in the ability for people of color, LGBTQ+ people, and more to live their best, truest lives.
Re: Re: Re:3
I know the possibility of that ruling being weaponized against the marginalized exists. That doesn’t shake my belief that the government shouldn’t be able to force you, me, or anyone else into expressing speech that goes against their conscience. Your constant attempts to emotionally manipulate me into believing otherwise hasn’t worked before; what makes you think they’re going to work now?
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I’m done trying to get you to change your mind. It’d just just be nice if you copped to the fact that your centrist liberal principles and what they lead you to support, those things you support can and do create externalities that undo existing social progress or make the legal fights for new social progress longer and more arduous than they have to be.
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Stephen is, after all, the Speaker of the House and the Senate, the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and the President, and thus completely responsible for the laws and rulings that you dislike.
Re: Re: Re:5
Could that happen under the 303 ruling? Possibly. And again, I’m cognizant of that fact. But I’d still very much prefer that the government, no matter who is in the Oval Office, have no right to force anyone to speak against their conscience—even in matters of commerce. I can’t think of any reason the government should have that power. Can you?
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If 303 had went the other way, you’d still have bigots abusing the result, just in a different way. They’d be going to LGBTQ-friendly cake shops or web designers and demanding they create products that said things like “Homosexuality is evil” instead. And under an anti-303 decision, they’d be forced to make them.
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Because equality laws can’t prevent that. Okay.
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They kind of can’t. Any law meant to compel speech in commerce must apply equally to everyone—including the bigots you’d want to attack with such a law—if those who wrote the law want it to have any chance at surviving a First Amendment challenge.
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And a good atheist ahowing to you too sir.
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Define “atheist nationalism” for me.
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Christian nationalism is bad but atheist nationalism is apparently good.
That’s because Christians, who have the inevitable ‘god told me it was OK’ excuse for reprehensible behavior, should by default have their motives questioned.
That’s the result of believing in unprovable nonsense, not some plot by atheists to deprive you of some perceived right to not be offended. Meanwhile, the rest of us jump through hoops because apparently ‘fear of god’s wrath or punishment’ is a useless deterrent to your goddamn kids.
Wouldn’t surprise me if NCOSE (formerly known as Morality in Media) is one of the backers of Texas’ age verification crap.
Those bastards really want abolish porn by means plus they are hellbent on getting KOSA passed by any means necessary even though from I’ve checked so far it doesn’t seem likely to pass this year.
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Probably. Good thing is that if this case doesn’t rule in Texas’ favor, KOSA’s fate as-is is basically double-sealed.
Not so sure if Paxton wins the case, though.
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This is off topic, but the subject of Christian Nationalists and Bigots at SCOTUS reminded me of how there was an author here that stumped really hard for Christian Nationalists and Bigots to win their case in the 303 Creative decision and kept trying to defend their own defense of it, even after the 303 Creative decision was used to disempower marginalized people in the 11th Circuit, which is the kind of decision that people told the author would happen. But they didn’t want to listen.
I wonder what that author thinks of 303 Creative now that Trump & Co. are going to use the ruling to run roughshod over marginalized groups while denying said groups the rights “on paper” that the author said that marginalized groups have to do the same thing.
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Yes or no: Do you believe the government, at any level, should have the right to force someone into expressing speech that goes against their conscience even in matters of commerce?
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Commerce isn’t a right.
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Free speech and association is. For what reason should any person be forced to give up that right if the government demands—at gunpoint, whether metaphorical or literal—that said person express speech that goes against their conscience?
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Free speech and association that, through power dynamics and unequal application of a law that is supposed to bind people equally, specificially intended by the people who brought the ruling to the end that it reached, also leads to the denial of free speech and freedom of association. How do you square that in your set of principles you like to live by? Is it that you think that the oppression you accept as an inseparable part of the ruling now is worth it because maybe decades down the line, which you may not live to see, the law will actually being applied equally?
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Give the government any power to punish people you hate in the name of people you like, and a government made up of people you hate will use that power against people you like. No governmental power will stay only in the hands of those you trust with that power. That is a truth.
I don’t want to see any government have the power to make anyone express speech that goes against their conscience. That group of “anyone” includes people I hate, for they are still people—and citizens of this country. The law should, in theory, bind and protect them in the same way it binds and protects me. Whether a given administration thinks differently is irrelevant to how I feel about the matter.
Again: I share your concerns about that ruling being weaponized against queer people. I get where you’re coming from here. But trying to emotionally manipulate me with shame or guilt won’t make me change my mind here. The government shouldn’t have the right to make a Christian who is against same-sex marriage express speech, even in commerce, that would make said Christian seem in favor of same-sex marriage—just like it shouldn’t have the right to make an atheist like me profess a belief in any god or religious creed. If you have a counterargument that isn’t “well you’re a bad queer and you’re stupid to boot”, a reference to something I said or did outside of Techdirt, or some other manipulative horseshit, you feel free to offer it. Until then: Your arguments aren’t doing what you hope they would do, and that’s your problem.
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You sound like one of those kooks arguing that people were “forced” to wear masks and get covid vaccines because they couldn’t hold their privileges above the rights of others.
303 was not even remotely being made to do anything against their conscience, no matter how much /violating/ civil rights is mischaracterized as “free speech and association.”
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How is any of this even remotely connected to a court case on state-mandated age verification?
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Let’s take 303 out of the equation for a moment.
Yes or no: Do you believe the government should force a gay man who runs, say, a T-shirt shop to print anti-gay speech on some shirts because a customer asked for it?
Also yes or no: Do you believe the government should force a cishet conservative Christian who runs a website design business to make a wedding website for a same-sex couple even though the designer is against same-sex marriage?
If the two answers are different: For what reason should only one of those people have the privilege of avoiding compelled speech (and the punishment for refusing to express that speech)?
Re: Re: Re:4
First Question: No.
Second Question: Yes.
For what reason? Because anti-LGBTQ+ bullshit is morally bad and a net-negative for society. Even if it’s someone’s “sincerely held” religious belief. End Of Fucking Story.
Re: Re: Re:5
You:
1) No
2) Yes
Why?) Because anti-LGBTQ+ is bad, and my belief is the correct one.
Them:
1) Yes
2) No
Why?) Because LGBTQ+ is bad, and my belief is the correct one.
I gotta tell ya, I’m not seeing a huge difference between you two right now.
Me:
1) No
2) No
Why?) Because you cannot legislate morality. Everyone gets equal protection under the law, even the horrible people, or it’s not rule of law, it’s the tyranny of those who believe they are “right.” The best you can do is try to convince them to change their views, but you need to accept that it’s going to take a LONG time. I mean, civilization has been around for about 10,000 years and it’s only within the last couple hundred or so that most people have finally realized that slavery is bad. Not everyone is convinced of even THAT, though.
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Obviously, I don’t believe in compelled speech, but nor do I believe in the compelled silence of LGBTQ people living in “Christian” states as a result of being unable to engage printing services, for example, on the basis of the 303 Creative decision. I guess you do, though.
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Neither situation is good. But please, feel free to explain why the government should let queer people have the right to use the force of government (i.e., threats of lawsuits) as a means to compel speech from anti-queer bigots—and why anti-queer bigots shouldn’t have the same right in re: queer people. I’ll wait.
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The reason why anti-queer bigots shouldn’t have the equal right is because they’re anti-queer bigots who seek to hurt others and the 303 Creative ruling that you agree with blew a massive hole into public accommodations and anti-discrimination laws that will take a long time, if ever, to repair as court cases about what is or is not “expressive work their way through the courts”.
There is a difference between good things and bad things. There is a difference between enabling marginalized groups to have increased access to expressive services via compelled speech, and denying bigots the right to compel the speech of marginalized groups. We can create laws and systems that do that.
Under the path that the Christian Nationalist ADF has begun to pave with 303 Creative, “There are other website designers and photographers marginalized people can go to; it’s the free market!” becomes “there are other barbers” becomes “there are other restaurants” becomes “there are other schools” becomes “there are other doctors” becomes “there are other countries marginalized people can flee to if the Free Market in one country denies them participation.”
Re: Re: Re:3
Okay. So what? You could argue the same point about racists, but the law doesn’t (and can’t) take away someone’s civil rights because they say the N-word out loud. Whatever a person’s beliefs about queer people, no matter how odious, they shouldn’t be forced by the government to express speech that goes against their conscience. And the same goes for queer people who would otherwise be forced to express anti-queer speech. One group shouldn’t (in theory) hold a privilege over the other, and both groups shouldn’t be compelled to express anything—and I do mean anything—the government might demand they express.
The question isn’t whether we can. It’s whether we should. I know it would bring you some level of emotional satisfaction to see anti-queer bigots forced into expressing support for same-sex marriage—but what would happen if the Trump administration were to turn the tables on such laws and force queer people to express anti-queer speech? You think it wouldn’t or couldn’t happen, but I promise you that any law you would wield as a sword against your enemies will one day be wielded against you by your enemies. You can’t keep the law from falling into “the wrong hands”. That’s the root question you’ve been avoiding: How much would you want the government to have the power of compelling people into expressing speech against their conscience if the government could inflict that power upon you?
I am well aware of that issue. And outside of forcing people to effectively endorse beliefs they don’t hold, the issue doesn’t have an easy solution. But I cannot and will not endorse the idea that the government should have the power to force—at gunpoint, whether metaphorical or literal—any U.S. citizen to express speech that violates their conscience, no matter the citizen or the speech. I’d like to avoid giving the Trump administration that kind of power. Would you?
Re: Re: Re:4
When someone’s beliefs are that someone’s existence and very immutable nature is an abomination, why does that deserve equal protection? Do you think that a bigot being required to offer their services to everyone will then cause that bigot to melt like the nazis at the end of Raiders Of The Lost Ark?
It just all seems to come down to the fact that you think that marginalized people having their ability to more readily participate in public society kneecapped, it’s okay and all acceptable losses to you if your principles are upheld. You say you’re worried about it, that you understand where I’m coming from, but it really feels like you don’t. Public accommodations law having a hole blown right through it isn’t something that you can just say to someone “I understand your concerns but it’s for the best it ended up this way” and come out the other end of that looking like the more reasonable person.
Re: Re: Re:5
Obviously, I’m not Stephen, but from my perspective, the problem is that there’s no final, omniscient, just arbiter available. You say people with dehumanizing perspectives shouldn’t be given equal protection to voice those perspectives as people who aren’t absolutely terrible assholes. But who gets to decide which perspectives are the terrible ones? The people in positions of power and judgment like judges can also be terrible people (Hello, SCOTUS!) and so an established inequitable protection will be applied gleefully to all the out-group members, including women, people of color, neurodivergent folk, LGBTQ folk, etc. Your perspective is only safe if there’s always fair, just, and compassionate people in power.
I’d also caution against getting offended that Stephen disagrees. Likely neither of you will ever have an opportunity to have a great influence on such policy and practices and laws. Being “wrong” on this topic, if there’s an objectively provably wrong position, is virtually meaningless.
Re: Re: Re:6
The same could be said of Stephen’s position. But he still insists that despite the bad stuff that will happen, and has happened, it’s all acceptable losses for his principles.
Chris Geidner put together a good piece about the ruling we’re discussiing and why it was bad. The comments of the piece have good back and forths explaining how bad the ruling was.
Re: Re: Re:7
What do you think the outcome would have been if the 303 decision had gone the other way? That is, if SCOTUS had said she couldn’t refuse to make a website that expressed something she didn’t believe in? You might have lauded that decision as a victory for civil rights, but you’re underestimating the ability of horrible people to abuse law. Under that alternative outcome:
Could a Christian extremist visit a cake shop owned by LGBTQ people and demand they decorate a cake to read “Homosexuality is a sin?”
Could a man visit a female web designer and demand she create a website extolling the virtues of beating one’s wife?
Could a KKK member visit a Black artist and demand they paint a mural of Martin Luther King Jr. being hanged?
Could a Nazi visit a Jewish writer and demand that they write a novel depicting Germany winning WWII and graphically killing off all Jews?
As I understand the case, such an alternative ruling would demand that yes, each of these situations must be accommodated or that business owner risks a lawsuit, and you better believe that those horrible people would sue.
If “I refuse to create that because the idea expressed violates my religious beliefs” is insufficient reason for denial, then “I refuse to create that because the idea expressed offends me” cannot possibly be sufficient either.
Re: Re: Re:8
This is effectively my point, yes. You can’t swing the law as a sword against those who offend you without expecting those who offend you to use that same sword against you. I think 303 is a good decision only and specifically because it protects everyone from being compelled by the government into expressing speech that goes against their conscience (and from being punished for refusing to express such speech), even in matters of commerce. If someone thinks a queer atheist like me should be compelled by law to express support for a queer-hating God, I’d love to know why they want the government to make me do that.
Re: Re: Re:9
“The government is denying my conscience and rights by compelling me to not have “Whites Only” policies!”
Re: Re: Re:10
In the public sphere, a given person must make room for others who are different in belief, identity, appearance, and numerous other ways. No one can or should deny someone else a spot in the public sphere based on who they are. Society recognizes how businesses that deny service to a person based on traits either inherent (e.g., skin color, sexual orientation) or not (e.g., religious creed, physical disability) infringe upon that person’s right to participate in the public sphere. To that end, the law allows for a narrow abridgement of the freedom of association so other people can exercise their rights.
When a business opens itself up to the general public, people with physical disabilities are as much a part of the general public as are able-bodied people. Abridging a business owner’s right of association is legally, morally, and ethically acceptable in this context because the business owner shouldn’t have the right to decide whether a person who needs to use a wheelchair, even if only temporarily, deserves to be part of the general public served by that business.
…all of which is to say that your “argument“, such as it is, shouldn’t be taken the least bit seriously.
Re: Re: Re:7
I’ll keep that in mind the next time this case is before the court I haven’t been appointed to.
Re: Re: Re:5
When someone’s beliefs are that someone’s existence and very immutable nature is a blessing, why does that deserve equal protection?
You seem to keep missing my point, which is this: Give the government such power that it can force the people in your question to express beliefs with which they disagree and it will one day do the same for the people in my question. In case you hadn’t noticed, the people about to hold the reins of government power next month would be asking my question instead of yours. I’d very much prefer they don’t have the power of which I speak.
In the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, the baker in question was dinged at every legal venue (save SCOTUS) for refusing to make a basic, on-the-menu wedding cake for a gay couple. In a somewhat related case, Azucar Bakery beat the rap when it refused to decorate a cake for a Christian customer because the decorations were considered hate speech and the bakery had a policy against it. A T-shirt shop called Hands On Originals also beat the rap when it was sued for refusing to print shirts that promoted a Pride festival.
I believe the right decision was made in all three cases. In the Azucar and Hands On cases, a finding against those businesses would have meant punishing the owners of those businesses for refusing to express speech that went against their consciences. Yes, those businesses cater to people in ways that involve creative speech. Yes, their refusals could—but not necessarily would—shut certain people out of the marketplace based on the speech those people want expressed. That said: I believe in the notion that no one should be compelled to express speech that violates their conscience.
Forcing a bigot to print a Pride festival T-shirt would have a certain measure of schadenfreude to it. Forcing a queer person to bake a cake with anti-queer references would not. And if you believe one of those people deserve that fate but the other doesn’t, you’re going to need a better argument than “they’re bigots” to convince me that the government should have that power—especially when the government could easily switch who suffers that fate with no better an argument than “they’re queer” to justify its decision.
Two things.
A bigot forcing a gay person to either express anti-gay speech or accept a government-backed punishment isn’t a good thing. But if the government is able to compel speech in creative fields, such an act would be legal. I believe the government shouldn’t have that power, even if that means marginalized people could get shut out of parts of commerce/public society. The alternative—marginalized people being forced by bigots to choose between their conscience and their business—is a position that I cannot and will not support.
Do you really want me to change my mind? Then propose a law that would (A) compel speech only from bigots while leaving marginalized people alone, (B) guarantee a government sympathetic to bigots can’t wield that power against marginalized people, and (C) survive a First Amendment challenge. Until you can do that, you won’t change my mind.
Re: Re: Re:6
The fact of the matter is that under the current rulings and general state of things, this is what’s up: They can be shut out of public society and they can be forced into expressing bigoted speech.
LGBTQ+ people are placed in a space of undue burden where they can routinely be denied expressive services. They are also placed in a space where if some bigoted business owner decides to use the 303 Creative ruling in a way that it wasn’t intended, such as the salon in Traverse City that Geidner’s article discusses, they may have to just deal with it, because they may not have the time or the resources or the public support to be able to get the bigoted business owner to face consequences and obey the letter of the law. There might be other salons in Traverse City. But for other people, there may be only one salon in their town.
And lastly, LGBTQ+ people are placed in a space where if they decide to use the 303 Creative ruling in the implied equal way, in that they decide to deny expressive services to Christians or homophobic people, the law and ruling won’t be applied equally. They will face bomb threats and people showing up at their house or place of business or worse, in spite of the ruling protecting their denial of expressive services the same way. Not everybody will be as privileged or lucky as Azucar. Their ability to be protected under the law equally will be chilled. Their speech will be compelled out of fear.
What is the solution to this? What do you think NGOs and rights organizations should do in order to make it so that 303 Creative’s protections actually bind people equally, if you believe so heavily in it? I know you’ve said you’re not God or the President and stuff. I want to know what you think others should do.
Example: An LGBTQ+ person in a small conservative town is routinely denied services, both expressive and non-expressive. They have no money or access to resources to fight for their equal rights to those non-expressive services. Nor do they have the money & resources to move to a more accepting place. What do they do? What do you think NGOs and rights orgs should do to help that person?
Re: Re: Re:7
I don’t know what NGOs can or should do. I don’t have the answers, and I probably never will. That’s because I am exactly what I’ve said I am in the past: one worthless schmuck with a laptop. Expecting me to have a solid, worthwhile, all-encompassing answer to any sociopolitical issue is a fool’s errand. All I have is the belief that the government shouldn’t force people to express speech against their conscience—no matter the person or the speech.
Do I think it’s bad that a marginalized person can be shut out of the public sphere? Yes. Do I think that’s worth abridging our right—yours, mine, and everyone else’s right—to avoid being compelled into speaking against our conscience? No. Like I said, I don’t have a solution to this problem; other than trying to legislate morality in a way that you naïvely hope can and will never be used against you, neither do you. Such solutions are perhaps beyond what can be done in the here-and-now and the immediate future, especially with the roadblock of the First Amendment standing in the way of any attempt to police speech in the way you want it policed.
Under your solution of compelled speech, everyone would have their right to avoid compelled speech abridged—including the marginalized people you insist would never be affected by your mythical proposal to ding only bigots. So please, I insist: Tell me why you would want the government to force me into expressing “God hates fags” in a way that makes me look like I endorse that idea.
Re: Re: Re:8
You’ve never put any thought into it? Really? Not even a general vague idea of how NGOs can help people who get shut out of public participation due to bigotry? Even when you know that under your principles, people can and will suffer harm? Just offer up some scattershot ideas of how the ACLU or others could reach out and help people who are being denied participation in the public sphere.
Re: Re: Re:9
I suspect that even if I did offer some ideas, you’d shoot them down as “not good enough” or not going “far enough” to protect marginalized people. You seem determined to neg me into believing in compelled speech at the cost of my own rights. Since that hasn’t worked for you yet, you might want to consider a different approach.
Re: Re: Re:7
Even Geidner states in that article that the salon owner would likely lose that lawsuit. We at least have progressed to the point where (generally speaking, as a society, I think) we can say that “I refuse to provide service because you’re asking me to create something that would violate my beliefs” can be justifiable even if disagreeable, but “I refuse to provide service because your existence violates my beliefs” is NOT acceptable.
Such is the burden of any marginalized group trying to fight for change. I refer you to the civil rights movements of the 1960s. I’m not saying this to be dismissive, I’m just being realistic. I don’t think it’s fair; I don’t think it’s right. I do think it’s the nature of humanity, and you’re not going to change that anytime soon.
Idealistically, they find the resources to mount the legal battle, win, and the town changes their behavior accordingly.
Realistically, were they to “try that in a small town,” there’s a non-trivial chance that they wouldn’t survive the attempt. Again, I refer you to the 1960s. It’d be up to them to decide if the reward of even a small step toward the equality they deserve, but might never see in their lifetime, would be worth the risk.
Change is happening, though you may be unhappy with the speed at which it’s happening.
Re: Re: Re:8
It doesn’t feel like change is moving forward at any speed; it feels like it’s reversing. Marginal victories feel all too slow to counteract systemic issues and rulings that make those victories null and void. One step forward, three steps back. What steps forward are going to be taken afterward if (more likely when) in the Skrmetti case, SCOTUS rules against the ability for parents to work with medical professionals to set up a plan for their trans kids to get gender-affirming care? Sure, I guess the ACLU will make mad bank off of donations to help fight for trans rights (which they’ll turn around and use instead on another Charlottesville situation), but that’s it.
Nothing about the current systems and laws where everyone is bound equally but only on paper, is working. At some point telling people who keep getting oppressed that they have equal rights on paper and that they just need to keep protesting and gathering up legal resources and allies (that more often than not pale in comparison to what Christian Nationalists can bring to a fight) for decades and decades of minor wins and setbacks to where they finally get to enjoy their rights a couple years before they die of old age, isn’t going to cut it.
I personally know a lot of queer leftists online who are done with the idea that America can be fixed or is something worth fighting for. They came to this conclusion after years of being lied to about a hopeful, bountiful future. I’m just about ready to join them.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Nigger nigger nigger!!
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Re: Re: Re:4
N1gger n1gger n1gger!!
Re: Re: Re:2
Nice strawman, but a company printing a T-shirt or making a cake with a message on it is not compelling speech from them, it’s them facilitating my speech as I have every right to expect, just as I have every right to expect a newspaper to print an advert on my behalf if I pay the requested fee without that being considered to be compelling speech from the newspaper.
Re: Re: Re:3
If the T-shirt company is just printing a picture that you supply, you might have an argument, but if you are asking them to design the graphic, or the cake baker to decorate the cake, you are asking them for their creative expression i.e. speech. And because you are asking them for their speech, you cannot use the force of government to compel them to say something they don’t want to say.
No, you don’t. A newspaper can refuse to print your ad if it does not meet their standards. From Miami Herald Publishing Co. v. Tornillo (1974):
Re: Re: Re:4
Just to clarify, you might have an argument from a compelled speech perspective, but I’m pretty sure that the company could still say “No we are not going to print that picture” even if they weren’t doing anything creative as part of the process.
Re: Re: Re:5
To wit: In the Azucar Bakery case, the Christian customer who sued that particular bakery wanted two cakes decorated with written messages—specifically, references to Bible verses often used to bash queer people—that the bakery did not want to put on the cake. Both Azucar’s blanket policy against hate speech and the fact that it offered to sell the customer everything he would need to decorate the cake himself is what gave Azucar the edge in that case. Compare that to Masterpiece Cakeshop (which only won at SCOTUS on procedural grounds), where the bakery never even discussed decorations because it refused to sell a basic-ass undecorated wedding cake to a gay couple in the first place.
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Since your comment is both off-topic and about a completely different author, why bother posting it here and now where it’s just trolling?
As a reminder, he called for porn consumption to be criminalized as well.
Age Verification would give the cops a map to your door.
Re:
You got any clue the kind of outrage that kind of thing would generate, though? Not just in the US but worldwide?
Re: Re:
I can imagine.
But fear of a public backlash doesn’t stop these people anymore.
Their Echo Chambers are too well soundproofed against outside noise.
Re: Re: Re:
Oh please, over half of them consume porn themselves.
Echo chamber won’t last when they’re the ones that start getting dragged out of their houses over innocouous shit.
Re: Re: Re:2
Exactly.
Re: Re: Re:2
That doesn’t happen until -after- they pass the law.
Right now they’re so well insulated that they didn’t think twice about including porn consumption criminalization in their Project 2025 FAQ Facebook Ads
I’m not saying it won’t blow up in their faces.
I’m just saying they’re quite likely to light the fuse.
Re: Re: Re:3
So?
That won’t matter. At all.
Re: Re: Re:4
Let’s be real here, downright criminalizing porn in its entirety is one big, gross violation of the first amendment no matter how you cut it.
Re: Re: Re:5
Exactly.
Re: Re: Re:5
And yet, that is exactly what their playbook calls for.
https://www.project2025.org/truth/
And that’s on the page they put up to dispel the idea that Project 2025 is a threat to people’s freedoms.
Re: Re: Re:6
It’s still expression and thus still speech.
Re: Re: Re:7
Exactly! 👍
Re: Re: Re:7
It is from a logical perspective, but the US courts don’t think it qualifies as speech or is deserving of protection in matters of free speech. The horrifying truth is that Project 2025’s clause on porn is just pushing for what the courts already say, but have (largely) recognized is insane to try and enforce.
Re: Re: Re:7
I think that was Kinetic Gothic’s entire point.
Re: Re: Re:7
I know that…
You know that..
They don’t think so, and they are in a good position to write the laws now.
Re: Re: Re:8
They don’t WRITE laws.
Re: Re: Re:2 'The leopards would never eat MY face, I'm one of their supporters!'
Which is why they wouldn’t use it against their own unless that person stepped out of line by questioning the Dear Leader and/or they needed to throw someone under the bus, and will instead use it against anyone they want to drag through the coals with a public charge for viewing and possessing porn.
'Think of The Children!' is almost always a dishonest power grab
Any time a story involving the anti-porn deviants pops up its important to remember that to these sorts of people the existence of trans people is considered ‘pornographic’, and you can be damn sure that if they ever manage to normalize their bigotry other groups will be added to the list.
Porn is just the excuse, enshrining their bigotry and gaining power are the actual goals.
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Let’s not forget, they consume porn too, so they’re hypocrites.
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FYI, such individuals aren’t really anti-porn, they’re just anti-anyone-except-them-having-access-to-porn.
There is a heck of a lot of signalling happening on the deck of that ship.
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Good or bad?
Re: Re:
The ship was bad to begin with, like some others. While they might like it to sail and not go down, the furious semaphore on deck is nearly as important, or possibly more important, than it’s particular success in battle.
So, what if Paxton wins the case? Is all hope lost?
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We’ll keep fighting, regardless of what happens.
Re: Re:
Can SCOTUS rulings be appealed?
Re: Re: Re:
The Court’s caseload is almost entirely appellate in nature, and the Court’s decisions cannot be appealed to any authority, as it is the final judicial arbiter in the United States on matters of federal law. However, the Court may consider appeals from the highest state courts or from federal appellate courts.
Re: Re: Re:
I wouldn’t worry about it, though, as SCOTUS has done well when it comes to first amendment rights.
Re: Re: Re:2
Unfortunately I am going to worry about it, as these things never seem to go the way that’s desired these days.
Re: Re: Re:3
Worrying won’t change the outcome. Focus on things you can affect.
Re: Re: Re:4
👍
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If you have to use devalued words like “bigot” then you’re probably at best uninformed and at worst mentally deficient.
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If you have to attack someone for calling out bigots then you’re probably at best uninformed and at worst completely uneducated.
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It’s been said that you can judge a man by his enemies. If a notorious hate group like the SPLC, known for their long history of vicious lies, defamation, and stochastic terrorism, doesn’t like these people, you can hardly imagine a better endorsement of them!
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Except if we judge SPLC by its enemies (Proud Boys, homophobic Christians, xenophobes, racists, white supremacists, et al.), then we should think rather highly of it.
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Re:
Well said.
This is just anti-Christian hate speech.
Re: Re:
So you’re saying it’s anti-hate hate? Awesome.
Re: Re:
Please explain how criticizing a specific group of powerful conservative Christians and their plans to turn the country into a fascistic theocracy is “hate speech” against all Christians of all denominations within the United States. I’ll wait.
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FTFY. YW.
Sounds like there’s some homophobia in that group as well, since families with two moms or two dads are a thing.
There seem to be a lot of trolls looking to inflame this issue further.
Trolls taking the extreme position on either side to help devolve this comments section into nonsense.
Mark the extreme replies as spam and move on.
These people are looking to further divide us and are not interested in good faith discussion.
It’s likely there are only a few people working together to bring division and chaos to this sites comments section.
Do not let them bait you. You know who these people are. You know what they are about. They are garbage people. Do not engage. Mark them as spam and move on.
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You’re falling for a framing trap, my dude. The polar opposite of “porn should be illegal” would be “porn should be mandatory viewing”, whereas “porn should be legal” is the actual moderate view. To think otherwise is to accept the framing of fascists that the moderate view is “extreme” only because it stands in opposition to their goal of banning porn. The two extremes try to enforce a black-and-white view of the world in which either nobody can watch porn or everybody has to watch porn; the moderate view lets porn exist without saying either of those things.
Re:
It’s sad that you think someone having a different perspective than you is “troll[ing]” or evidence of lack of “[interest]…in good faith discussion.”
“…plays into the hands of critics of the legal pornography industry who wish to see this entertainment sector censored entirely.”
Imagine how lucrative the fascist’s illegal underground pornography industry is gonna be after the fascists get these new laws enacted and enshrined. Paxton and Friends secret side-business will really bring in some serious loot then for sure.
Look at pot. Illegalized, the only affect was to raise the cost of the stuff to more than 20 times its original black market cost. The fascists hope this will also increase their side businesses in the same fashion and it will.
Made illegal, the competition from legal online porn shops will end, and these phony moralist politician businessmen’s products will be the whole of the market.
Just another legalized fascist money-maker in the works.
OK, I’m late to the party, but I just wanted to say that while quickly scrolling past, I thought I read the title as “Christian Naturists And Bigots Stump For Ken Paxton In SCOTUS Age Verification Case”
That would have been a somewhat different article 🙂
Children are being murdered in schools by guns.
Children are going to bed hungry.
Mothers are dying in childbirth.
Inequality is baked into the law.
But the biggest problem is the chance a kid might see a tit online & how we can make it so donors are able to reap huge profits while solving nothing.