Self-Proclaimed 9/11 Hero Rudy Giuliani Now Owes Election Workers He Defamed $148 Million

from the the-fo-follows-the-fa dept

The man who decided he was the real glue holding New York City together following the 9/11 attacks is now nothing more than a man whose stupid, obsequious mouth has written checks he can’t cash. And all to stroke the ego of a lame duck president who thought what the nation really needed was a self-absorbed autocrat.

An empire built on baseless claims cannot stand. I believe that’s how the old adage goes. Rudolph Giuliani — who is now former-pretty-much-everything (NYC mayor, Trump lawyer, existent on this plane of reality) — has undone his own reputation and his own dwindling finances in the hopes that Daddy Trump will once again let him eat at the grown-up table.

Donald Trump will not restore him to his former level of (disposable) glory as White House counsel, even if he’s elected president in 2024. It’s clear Trump believes any of his die-hard supporters now facing millions in judgments are victims of their own ineptitude, rather than victims of Trump’s self-interest and avarice.

Giuliani defamed a couple of Georgia election workers for the sole purpose of furthering Trump’s “stolen election” hallucinations. He continued to do so even after it became clear Trump wasn’t going to save those who sacrificed themselves, their fortunes, and their reputations on the altar of Trump’s insurrectionist wet dreams.

At this point, Giuliani is nothing more than an embarrassment. Trump doesn’t care for people who fail, even if they fail on his behalf. Presumably, Trump views Giuliani — the man now on the hook for $148 million in damages — as a failure and a coward: labels Trump applies to anyone he considers to have “lost,” whether it’s die-hard supporters now suffering the legal repercussions of their actions or a prisoner-of-war who served their country dutifully until they were captured, tortured, and (ultimately) mocked(!!!) by the sitting president.

Getting drubbed to the point of bankruptcy is entirely Rudy Giuliani’s fault. He openly admitted in court filings that he had defamed the election workers. But he wanted the court to consider his alternative arguments, in hopes that these specious requests might make him just a little less liable in other defamation suits in which he was the defendant.

He already owes the election workers and their legal reps more than $120,000 in legal fees, largely because he openly admitted he had lost this lawsuit.

The only question left was for the jury: how much does Rudy owe for the defamation he already admitted to? That question was answered recently. A fuckload, according to this CNN report compiled by Devan Cole, Holmes Lybrand, and Katelyn Polantz.

A Washington, DC, jury has ordered Rudy Giuliani to pay nearly $150 million to two Georgia election workers for the harm caused by defamatory statements he made about them following the 2020 election.

Ruby Freeman was awarded $16,171,000 for defamation and $20 million for emotional distress. Shaye Moss, Freeman’s daughter, was awarded $16,998,000 for defamation and $20 million for emotional distress. The jury also awarded $75 million in punitive damages to both plaintiffs.

That’s nearly $150 million out of Giuliani’s own pocket. Unfortunately for the defamed parties, there’s no way Giuliani actually has the assets to cover this judgment. As Business Insider reports, legal experts who have been following Giuliani’s multiple courtroom debacles are pretty sure this is a judgment that will take years to collect… if it can even be collected at all.

“He can’t pay this,” said Neama Rahmani, a former federal prosecutor and president of West Coast Trial Lawyers. “And it won’t go away.”

The former New York City mayor has racked up a litany of financial and legal troubles since dedicating himself fully to Trump’s ill-fated effort to maintain the presidency following President Joe Biden’s win in November 2020.

Giuliani — who was once considered one of the top prosecutors in the country — could be on the hook for still millions more as he faces two suits brought by voting machine companies, as well as a sexual harassment suit for $10 million and a $1.4 million suit from his former lawyers.

This is just the most prominent tip of Giuliani’s litigation iceberg. And there’s no doubt this judgment will be appealed by the former NYC mayor. He’s unlikely to win a reversal of his non-fortune, though. His legal antics in this case (along with his unprovoked admission of guilt) will likely make any appeal futile.

The problem is Giuliani. He’s proven to be too stupid to shut up. And he’s apparently so oblivious to reality he actually still seemed to believe Trump would save him from himself. But here’s the thing: when your operative assumption is that a rising sewer lifts all turds, at the end of the day you’re still a piece of shit.

There will always be new acolytes willing to swear obeisance. And most of those won’t be wearing the stains of courtroom losses and bankruptcy filings. Giuliani debased himself to serve an orange-haired megalomaniac. He could have stopped at any time. But he didn’t. And now whatever he earns for the rest of life will belong to the people whose lives he tried to ruin in hopes of pleasing the most self-interested man to ever hold the office of President.

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Comments on “Self-Proclaimed 9/11 Hero Rudy Giuliani Now Owes Election Workers He Defamed $148 Million”

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This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
James Burkhardt (profile) says:

He was never going to get out easy, as he kept repeating the defamation right up through the trial.

Its not going to go better after he immediately repeated the defamatory claims. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/rudy-giuliani-second-lawsuit-election-workers-defamation_n_6580d37fe4b036ecab463719

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Lawsuit-proof

At this point you almost have to wonder if it’s on purpose, that he’s figured out that since he’s already on the hook for more money than he’ll ever be able to pay so long as he avoids any crime that carries a prison sentence he’s got nothing to lose by double/triple/quadrupling down.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

A lot of these people seem to be simply playing to the crowd, hoping that Trump will get re-elected and they’ll get pardoned. They don’t have to apologise and face up to punishment if they have an even more corrupt friend who can save them.

In a way with someone like Rudy, it almost makes sense. He’s already facing massive debt that’s causing him to try and sell of his property. He’s still facing a lawsuit from Dominion (IIRC) that he’s almost certain to lose. His reputation as a lawyer is completely shot and he’s facing disbarment. His entire public persona has gone from a mayor with a reasonable reputation outside of NYC to crazy nutball.

In his eyes, he might as well just test the limits of the legal system and see how far it will go to try and defend the poor women whose lives he has destroyed with his lies, he’s already as far close to rock bottom as people like him ever reach.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

people will hot potato the inheritance so they don’t end up owing people money.

No, debts don’t work that way. This judgement will follow him for the rest of his days (I’m sure the lawyers will renew it in 10 years, if he doesn’t croak before then.). And debts outstanding upon a death are first paid to taxes (IRS, then local, etc), court judgments and liens, then whatever’s left over will go to the inheritors. This judgment says they’ll get nothing.

And my money is on more than one investigative reporter rooting out shenanigans such as secret transfers of assets to other parties. Should make for some interesting sound bites, from a certain striped-jumpsuit wearing baldie…

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davec (profile) says:

Two and a half years of Russia, Russia, Russia and nobody got sued. . .

Despite having Hunter’s laptop in their possession, the FBI called it Russian disinformation and removed it’s mention from social media during the 2020 election.

In 2020 with our first ever election during a pandemic with mail in ballots for all and the claim was that nothing like this could ever happen..
Connecticut city’s ‘mishandled ballots’ fuel election skeptics. Experts call problem local, limited | AP News
https://apnews.com/article/mishandled-ballots-bridgeport-connecticut-election-security-70f95f347dfa1e581a6955027d64ae2d

Nov 5 2022 Trump hints he will run again in 2024

Nov 7 2022 Biden announces that Trump will never take power again.

March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

I know Tim is very skeptical of the police so maybe he understands why people like Guliani were skeptical of the 2020 election and what appears to be a weaponization of the judicial system.

Despite or maybe because of these indictments, orange man is leading in the polls and seems unstoppable.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

the FBI called it Russian disinformation and removed it’s mention from social media during the 2020 election.

That you believe easily provable false statements such as this, just goes to show how far you have your head up the orange man’s backside.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

That you believe easily provable false statements such as this, just goes to show how far you have your head up the orange man’s backside.

Former Twitter execs say removal of Hunter Biden laptop story was a ‘mistake’ Former Twitter executives told a House committee Wednesday that the social media company made a mistake in its handling of a controversial New York Post story on Hunter Biden’s laptop.

Zuckerberg tells Rogan Facebook suppressed Hunter Biden laptop story after FBI warning | The Hill

https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3616579-zuckerberg-tells-rogan-that-facebook-suppressed-hunter-biden-laptop-story-after-fbi-warning-defends-agency-as-legitimate-institution/

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

This question right here should be the lightbulb moment for you that the story wasn’t true, but you want to believe it so badly that you have to twist yourself up to try to find a plausible explanation.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

Perhaps you should ask Trump and all the best people he had working on it. It’s important to note that the orange big mouth was president at the time, and it was his hand-picked FBI involved.

He hires the best people – he said so, many times.

So if you have a problem with what they did, ask yourself why you’d consider voting for that same incompetence again.

Dumbass.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Former Twitter execs say removal of Hunter Biden laptop story was a ‘mistake’ Former Twitter executives told a House committee Wednesday that the social media company made a mistake in its handling of a controversial New York Post story on Hunter Biden’s laptop.

Zuckerberg tells Rogan Facebook suppressed Hunter Biden laptop story after FBI warning | The Hill

Notably, none of this proves that the story was accurate, nor that the FBI’s warning was specifically about that story rather than just a general warning, nor that the warning was interpreted as an order or demand or intended as such.

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

They knew that the laptop existed, and they knew of its contents. They did not know the laptop was Hunter’s (because it likely wasn’t), that the contents weren’t tampered with (because they were), or that it implicated Joe Biden (because it didn’t). They also didn’t know whether or not a given story published about the laptop would be accurate until after the story was published because that’s how time works.

Furthermore, the warning was more general and may not have been about the laptop, specifically, but more about election disinformation more broadly. It said nothing about a laptop at all.

But yeah, the thing is that the story wasn’t known to be entirely true in the first place.

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Pixelation says:

Re:

You need to conspiracy harder.

“An Associated Press review of every potential case of voter fraud in the six battleground states disputed by Trump has found fewer than 475 — a number that would have made no difference in the 2020 presidential election. And legal challenges to the 2020 election were heard and roundly rejected by dozens of courts at both state and federal levels, including by judges whom Trump appointed.”

And, from Wikipedia…
“After the 2020 United States presidential election, the campaign for incumbent President Donald Trump and others filed and lost 62 lawsuits contesting election processes, vote counting, and the vote certification process in 9 states (including Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin) and the District of Columbia.[1][2] Among the judges who dismissed the lawsuits were some appointed by Trump himself.[3]”

Are you saying judges appointed by Trump himself are part of this grand conspiracy?

You are proof that some people will believe any conspiracy they find on the internet.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Two and a half years of Russia, Russia, Russia and nobody got sued. . .

Lotsa people ended up in jail though, did that slip your mind?

Despite having Hunter’s laptop in their possession, the FBI called it Russian disinformation and removed it’s mention from social media during the 2020 election.

This tells me you haven’t got a clue what actually happened. Perhaps start consuming some other media that doesn’t straight up lie to you. FBI didn’t remove anything from social media, all they did was inform social media companies that there might be a Russian disinfo campaign coming, that’s it. Then the New York Post posted their article about the hard-disk that was allegedly from Hunter’s laptop. Fun fact: The blind repair-shop guy that originally had the hard-disk has gone on record saying the drive the New York Post got their hands on had been tampered with, multiple times.

In 2020 with our first ever election during a pandemic with mail in ballots for all and the claim was that nothing like this could ever happen..

Nothing like this what? Ballot frauds? Election tampering? I hate to burst your bubble, it happens at every election but it is mostly minor and doesn’t change the results. The difference is that in 2020 a president tried to influence the election by demanding someone to find 11000 votes, plus the whole thing with the fake electors, plus the incitement of Jan 6 (which you know, led to cops being assaulted). The fact is, the 2020 election was the most monitored in US history.

Nov 7 2022 Biden announces that Trump will never take power again.

Is Hillary in jail yet? Funny how some things are taken as the gospel truth (after a bit of rewording) but others aren’t. Somebody better make up their mind if politicians always speak the unvarnished truth.

March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

Here’s the thing, do stupid shit and some of that shit will stick like a bad odor. Trump being in court was a common occurrence long before he got to be president. All the cases above have facts and evidence behind them, how they will be interpreted are entirely up the the courts.

I know Tim is very skeptical of the police so maybe he understands why people like Guliani were skeptical of the 2020 election and what appears to be a weaponization of the judicial system.

Giuliani is a deluded has-been, he had the chance to provide evidence of election tampering he said they had multiple times in court. And every time a judge wanted to see the evidence there were a lot of hemming and hawing before finally admitting they had no evidence. When Tim specifically give examples of cops doing stupid shit, you are there defending them, even though there are facts and evidence available. That’s the difference, Giuliani had no facts, no evidence while every story Tim has published have facts attached. That you choose to interpret those facts the way you do doesn’t in any way mean the facts stop existing.

So take that stupid “skeptical” comparison and put it out of its misery.

Despite or maybe because of these indictments, orange man is leading in the polls and seems unstoppable.

Because a lot of people are stupid and believe anything they are told. Let me quote Jared Kushner in regards to all the stupid shit Trump says to his followers, this in regards to the birther lies: “He doesn’t really believe it, Elizabeth. He just knows Republicans are stupid and they’ll buy it

So if Trump wins, the US will once again have a known liar as president that has promised to take revenge on almost everyone he feel have slighted him, someone who will happily demolish the US to get what he wants. If you think the current cases against Trump is a weaponization of the judicial system, you’ll be in for one rude shock when Trump starts his cleansings. You’ll remember your oath then, won’t you?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

All the cases above have facts and evidence behind them

Which is more than could ever be said about the five dozen or so court cases filed by Trump and his supporters over voter fraud in the 2020 election. Even the current Supreme Court⁠—three members of which were appointed by Trump!⁠—told the orange shitstain to fuck off.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Lotsa people ended up in jail though, did that slip your mind?

And yet none of them were charged with interfering in the 2016 election or colluding with Russia.

This tells me you haven’t got a clue what actually happened. Perhaps start consuming some other media that doesn’t straight up lie to you. FBI didn’t remove anything from social media, all they did was inform social media companies that there might be a Russian disinfo campaign coming, that’s it. Then the New York Post posted their article about the hard-disk that was allegedly from Hunter’s laptop. Fun fact: The blind repair-shop guy that originally had the hard-disk has gone on record saying the drive the New York Post got their hands on had been tampered with, multiple times.

Former Twitter execs say removal of Hunter Biden laptop story was a ‘mistake’ Former Twitter executives told a House committee Wednesday that the social media company made a mistake in its handling of a controversial New York Post story on Hunter Biden’s laptop.

Zuckerberg tells Rogan Facebook suppressed Hunter Biden laptop story after FBI warning | The Hill
https://thehill.com/policy/technology/3616579-zuckerberg-tells-rogan-that-facebook-suppressed-hunter-biden-laptop-story-after-fbi-warning-defends-agency-as-legitimate-institution/

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

Is Hillary in jail yet? Funny how some things are taken as the gospel truth (after a bit of rewording) but others aren’t. Somebody better make up their mind if politicians always speak the unvarnished truth.

Nobody prosecuted Hilary and I would have been opposed if they did. We weren’t a Banana Republic till after Biden announced
“We just have to demonstrate that he will not take power if he does run, making sure he — under legitimate efforts of our Constitution — does not become the next president again,”

Then this happened
Nov 7 2022 Biden announces that Trump will never take power again.
March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

Giuliani is a deluded has-been, he had the chance to provide evidence of election tampering he said they had multiple times in court. And every time a judge wanted to see the evidence there were a lot of hemming and hawing before finally admitting they had no evidence. When Tim specifically give examples of cops doing stupid shit, you are there defending them, even though there are facts and evidence available. That’s the difference, Giuliani had no facts, no evidence while every story Tim has published have facts attached. That you choose to interpret those facts the way you do doesn’t in any way mean the facts stop existing.

So take that stupid “skeptical” comparison and put it out of its misery.

Tim takes the position that all mistakes by the police or judgements against the police are intentional attempts by the police to circumvent the law or that the police are too stupid to know better. The fact is, courts often differ in their opinions over ruling one another. When the courts rule against the cops, he publishes the story, when the courts agree with the cops, crickets from Tim.

Because a lot of people are stupid and believe anything they are told. Let me quote Jared Kushner in regards to all the stupid shit Trump says to his followers, this in regards to the birther lies: “He doesn’t really believe it, Elizabeth. He just knows Republicans are stupid and they’ll buy it”

So if Trump wins, the US will once again have a known liar as president that has promised to take revenge on almost everyone he feel have slighted him, someone who will happily demolish the US to get what he wants. If you think the current cases against Trump is a weaponization of the judicial system, you’ll be in for one rude shock when Trump starts his cleansings. You’ll remember your oath then, won’t you?

We have a known liar and plagiarist in the White House now.

I remember the oath and like the 70% of this country I see the weaponization of the Judicial System and I have to restraint myself and push for the best. I have no doubt if these political prosecutions are successful, they will be used again and again by the regime against it’s enemies. I have little doubt that even people that are not politicians such as Elon Musk will be subject to charges of sedition and defamation and like Guliani they will be sued for millions.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Yes, I’m sure you’d like to restrain yourself blowing Stephen’s brains out with a Glock you threatened to pull on him.

That’s total bullshit for three reasons.

  1. I’ve never threatened violence against anyone.
  2. I don’t own Glock.
  3. Stephen doesn’t have enough brains to shoot at.

Forgive me if I feel the need to actually arm myself in self-defense.

I think you probably should. If the GOP candidate for the Presidency is prevented from running or is so hamstrung by lawfare that the 2024 election is seen as invalid, weapons will be the next choice of people fighting for “freedom and democracy” on both sides.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If the GOP candidate for the Presidency is prevented from running or is so hamstrung by lawfare that the 2024 election is seen as invalid, weapons will be the next choice of people fighting for “freedom and democracy” on both sides.

No, they’ll be the choice of people fighting for Donald Trump. They’ve already tried to violently subvert democracy once and they’ll sure as shit do it again. Besides, the only people who are geniunely calling for violence and civil wars are conservatives/right-wingers, especially Trumpists. Tell me when I’m telling lies.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

No, they’ll be the choice of people fighting for Donald Trump. They’ve already tried to violently subvert democracy once and they’ll sure as shit do it again. Besides, the only people who are geniunely calling for violence and civil wars are conservatives/right-wingers, especially Trumpists. Tell me when I’m telling lies.

The danger is you think you are fighting against Trump.
Do you feel the GOP has the right to a candidate of their choice. Do you feel they have a right to a free and fair election. Do you think Republicans would fight for that right?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The danger is you think you are fighting against Trump.

I rest my case, Your Honor.

Do you feel the GOP has the right to a candidate of their choice.

The GOP has a right to the candidate of their choice if the candidate meets the requirements laid out in the Constitution. “Not having participated in an insurrection against the government” is one of those requirements.

Do you feel they have a right to a free and fair election.

Show me any presidential election in your lifetime where the outcome was provably altered by mass amounts of election interference or voter fraud.

Do you think Republicans would fight for that right?

I believe a significant number of GOP lawmakers and voters would absolutely kill anyone who isn’t a straight White cisgender conservative Christian if doing so were legal.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Do you feel the GOP has the right to a candidate of their choice

They do, and they profiled one of the most unsympathetic choices they could have chosen. Twice! That still doesn’t give them a right to have him win at all costs.

Do you feel they have a right to a free and fair election. Do you think Republicans would fight for that right

Which they did. Back in 2016. Funny how the system was free and fair when their candidate won, but the system that didn’t see their candidate win is somehow corrupt, isn’t it?

And it’s not just any system, it’s the system that Trump personally stacked with conservative goons. The system that, despite Trump all but begging them to find more voters out of thin air, to find evidence that voter fraud was rife, to “unleash the kraken” in Sidney Powell’s own words – couldn’t find anything worth a damn to convince the system that Trump’s election victory was stolen.

At this point it is staunchly clear that your team is only interested in fighting for a system when it exclusively benefits you. You can beat your chest and stamp your feet all you want if it makes you feel better. What it makes you look like is a child angry at being told to stand in the corner for five minutes.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I had to check where that comment came from, and, unfortunately, that threat was from your third-rate copycat.

HOWEVER…

The fact is that you have posted before while not logged in. It’s not hard to find examples of this. You have used the term “Stephen Stoned” as an insult. You have made it clear you have very little decorum for anyone that doesn’t kiss the footprint of cops the way you do. You have mentioned in several comments that you think millennials and people who don’t confirm to heteronormativity are the cause of everything that’s wrong with the world.

It’d be trivial for you to log out and post what’s truly on your mind, incite responses, then log back in to whine about the inevitable backlash.

Add that to your continued gaslighting, bad faith arguments and water carrying for people and politicians who continue to call for violence against everyone who don’t agree with them…

The sheer weight of evidence means I can safely assume that you’d join the next insurrection attempt.

So, forgive me if I arm myself in self-defense. After all, there’s gonna be 74 million insurrectionists by the time 2024 rolls aeound…

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Tim takes the position that all mistakes by the police or judgements against the police are intentional attempts by the police to circumvent the law or that the police are too stupid to know better.

You forgot the other, likelier option: the mistake happened because the police genuinely cannot give a single solitary fuck to get shit done right, whether it’s a warrant they should have applied for or not shooting the unarmed.

Of course, you are free to argue “intent” until you’re blue in the face and blue in the uniform. Welcome to the real world, where “intent” doesn’t save you from consequences. You want to sound like a freedom fighter. What you sound like is a child stamping their feet, tears streaming down their face, yelling “But I didn’t mean to!”

When the courts rule against the cops, he publishes the story, when the courts agree with the cops, crickets from Tim.

You realize that Techdirt has posted articles where cops get their QI upheld by the courts or get off scot-free for their brutality, right? Of course you don’t remember those, because all you can remember is Cushing not being happy with those results, so you don’t even remember that those results exist. Because you need to craft a narrative that the cops are getting shafted in the courts left, right and center to make it sound like they’re under attack, thereby justifying your anger that they can’t just shoot randos on the street anymore.

I have no doubt if these political prosecutions are successful, they will be used again and again by the regime against it’s enemies

The guy you’re desperately simping for made a political prosecution the entire focus of his election campaign back in 2016.

You want to frame that as some sort of twisted magnanimity on Trump’s part and proof that he’s somehow harmless compared to the one you disagree with. The truth is that your team screamed “BUT HER EMAILS” for four years and managed to turn up an amount of evidence between the range of jack shit and fuck all.

I have little doubt that even people that are not politicians such as Elon Musk will be subject to charges of sedition and defamation and like Guliani they will be sued for millions

Guy, you are shilling and simping for some of the most enriched, empowered people on the planet. This idea that they’re going to crumble in the face of constant litigation is nothing short of desperate fearmongering.

Neither of them are going to remember your dedication for them. If anything, what Trump did to save his brave foot soldiers on Jan 6th would be a more accurate outcome.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Guy, you are shilling and simping for some of the most enriched, empowered people on the planet. This idea that they’re going to crumble in the face of constant litigation is nothing short of desperate fearmongering.
Neither of them are going to remember your dedication for them. If anything, what Trump did to save his brave foot soldiers on Jan 6th would be a more accurate outcome.

If they can take millions from Trump along with his business in New York then even Musk would be an easy target. Blumenthal is already targeting Tesla and the government is going after Musk and Space X for not hiring immigrants that the government had previously denied were eligible.

I’m not concerned as much for them as I am for every American. If they can target and bring down billionaires with lawsuits and legal interpretations because they don’t like their political view then no American is safe, nor do they have any rights or freedom.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Blumenthal is already targeting Tesla

Good! Let’s hope he continues focusing on that instead of the UAW. It’s always wonderful to see ‘business acumen’ like that in real-time.

If they can target and bring down billionaires with lawsuits and legal interpretations because they don’t like their political view then no American is safe, nor do they have any rights or freedom.

Trying to identify with ‘billionaires’ like Musk & Trump is what makes you people so fucking pathetic. Neither would piss on you if you were on fire, and yet you think they’re for little insignificant peasants like you.

It’s why all you do is still complain, sucker.

‘Trickle down econmomics’ didn’t work this time either.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If they can take millions from Trump along with his business in New York then even Musk would be an easy target

You guys seem to be incapable of finding any other billionaire who comes under this threat of ongoing litigation. Now why is that? Why so specific? Why not mention literally any other billionaire who isn’t Musk or Trump? Bezos? Gates? Zuckerberg?

It’s almost like it’s not the billionaires you’re terrified for, but very specific billionaires.

because they don’t like their political view

Like what you’re doing here, right now?

Your fervent hope is that your boy Trump takes us all back to the 1950s where gender, racial and sexual minorities can be shot on sight.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Why was the FBI warning about the story being false when it already had the laptop in it’s possession and knew it was true?

That never happened. Are you selectively rewriting history in your mind or have you been lied to?

Nobody prosecuted Hilary and I would have been opposed if they did.

But didn’t Trump promise to lock her up? So I have to ask, when one president explicitly promise something will happen and another president suggest using the constitution to do something the latter is somehow dystopian?

Then this happened (list of Trump legal woes)

No, those didn’t just happen. Do you really believe these cases just popped up from nowhere? The investigations for each and every one of the cases started years ago and they have been talked about in media for the whole time.

Tim takes the position that all mistakes by the police or judgements against the police are intentional attempts by the police to circumvent the law or that the police are too stupid to know better. The fact is, courts often differ in their opinions over ruling one another. When the courts rule against the cops, he publishes the story, when the courts agree with the cops, crickets from Tim.

So you are incapable of reading and understanding what Tim wrote those times cops got off scot free for behavior that any reasonable person would expect someone to go to jail for.

We have a known liar and plagiarist in the White House now.

Oh? It’s easy to say shit without providing one shred of fact. Perhaps you can give us a list of these lies and plagiarisms? In response I’ll try to provide a list of lies from Trump but I’m afraid I have to keep it short since I don’t want to spend hours upon hours compiling it.

I have no doubt if these political prosecutions are successful, they will be used again and again by the regime against it’s enemies.

You are still ignoring the facts. Your problem is that you are using two different metering sticks, one for things you like and another for things you don’t like. The first stick puts everything in the best light and the second one put everything in the worst light. That way you can delude yourself that your judgement is fair and balanced when in reality you are so biased it’s ridiculous. You are entirely driven by emotion lacking all reason and critical thinking.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I have to restraint myself and push for the best.

Yeah, sure Jan.

You’ll restrain yourself because the same people you bend over backwards defending would give you the ‘Babbit treatment’ in a heartbeat if you refuse to comply. But if you think ‘it can’t happen to me’ then go ahead and lose that restraint. I fucking dare you.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

We have a known liar and plagiarist in the White House now.

After all the BS you muppets accuse Biden of, now you need to add… plagiarism?! Where the hell did that come from? You wanna throw in some jaywalking while you’re at it?

I remember the oath and like the 70% of this country I see the weaponization of the Judicial System and I have to restraint myself and push for the best.

70% of statistics are made up on the spot. You’ve been sucked in by Trumpublicans’ wild over-use of the word ‘weaponization’ (repeat a lie often enough…) and ignore the fact that if you commit crimes you can expect legal repercussions.

I have no doubt if these political prosecutions are successful, they will be used again and again by the regime against it’s enemies.

Trump said we was going to do that before getting elected and he’s said he’ll do it if he gets re-elected. Is that the regime you’re referring to?

I have little doubt that even people that are not politicians such as Elon Musk will be subject to charges of sedition and defamation and like Guliani they will be sued for millions.

Not sure what the hell Musk has to do with anything but I too have little doubt that if you lie about someone to the egregious lengths and depths that Giuliani did (by his own admission!) you can absolutely expect to get sued. Why would you expect different?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

After all the BS you muppets accuse Biden of, now you need to add… plagiarism?! Where the hell did that come from? You wanna throw in some jaywalking while you’re at it?

I know you’ve got a computer, and you probably wouldn’t take my word anyway, so why don’t you use it? Google “is Biden a plagiarist”. This is some of what you’ll get back.
Biden Admits Plagiarism in School But Says It Was Not ‘Malevolent’ – The New York Times (nytimes.com)
Harvard law grad accuses Biden of plagiarism (nypost.com)
Echoes of Biden’s 1987 plagiarism scandal continue to reverberate – The Washington Post

70% of statistics are made up on the spot. You’ve been sucked in by Trumpublicans’ wild over-use of the word ‘weaponization’ (repeat a lie often enough…) and ignore the fact that if you commit crimes you can expect legal repercussions.

No indictments until Trump announced he was running for President in 2024 then…

Nov 7 2022 Biden announces that Trump will never take power again.
March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

Trump said we was going to do that before getting elected and he’s said he’ll do it if he gets re-elected. Is that the regime you’re referring to?

Maybe now you understand what a threat to democracy this lawfare is. You are probably terrified that Trump might get elected while millions of others are terrified that he won’t. A free and fair election was the only peaceful way to handle the problem, now that is very much in danger.

Not sure what the hell Musk has to do with anything but I too have little doubt that if you lie about someone to the egregious lengths and depths that Giuliani did (by his own admission!) you can absolutely expect to get sued. Why would you expect different?

Guliani was a small fish who was destroyed because he wouldn’t refute Trump and even supported Trump’s claims on the election. Does anyone else think 75 million dollars in punitive damages is a little excessive?

As I responded previously

If they can take millions from Trump along with his business in New York then even Musk would be an easy target. Blumenthal is already targeting Tesla and the government is going after Musk and Space X for not hiring immigrants that the government had previously denied were eligible.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Does anyone else think 75 million dollars in punitive damages is a little excessive?

Do you think having your life turned upside down by a powerful public figure telling lies about you is worth a “forgive and forget, nbd” kind of reaction, or are you the kind of person who thinks what happened to the families of the Sandy Hook shooting victims because of Alex Jones’s lies was a good thing?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Google “is Biden a plagiarist”.

That’s all you got, champ? Google “trump spent more time in detention than anyone”, or “trump stiffed small business”, or “trump defrauded students”

Do you want to compare some more dirty deeds? I have a loooong list of shit Trump has pulled. It seems you don’t have a single honest bone in you, you ignore all the shit Trump has done while being hung up on something that in comparison is like a wet fart in a hurricane.

No indictments until Trump announced he was running for President in 2024 then…

Talk about being stupid as a rock. It seems you can’t even understand that before a case is brought in front of a court there has to be an investigation, right? You have to be fucking blind and deaf to have missed all the media-noise about these investigations.

Maybe now you understand what a threat to democracy this lawfare is.

Not investigating interference in an election? Not investigating hush-money? Not investigating the removal and handling of secret and sensitive documents? No investigating financial fraud?

Perhaps you forgot the old adage: “Where there’s smoke there’s fire”, and boy has it billowed around Trump for 50 fucking years.

You are probably terrified that Trump might get elected while millions of others are terrified that he won’t.

Because Trump has shown zero restraint in walking all over the constitution, laws, rules and separation of power. Do you think any of his sycophants will restrain him this time around? If he is voted in I’ll guarantee what within 6 months you won’t recognize the US, and it won’t be a good thing.

You judge a man by what he does, take a hard look at Trump’s history and then look at Needledick Biden’s history. I rather prefer the impotent needledick than a narcissist with a vengeance streak that shows no restraints.

And I have ask, what the fuck are people terrified of if Biden is re-elected? More impotent politics? Playing catchup with GOP’s grievance politics? Do you even have any idea what people are supposedly afraid of that isn’t some scary fairytale told by the GOP?

A free and fair election was the only peaceful way to handle the problem, now that is very much in danger.

What free and fair election? Haven’t you noticed how the republicans and the MAGA’s have been stacking the deck since the 2020 election? If you don’t understand what I mean by that you have zero business talking about “a free and fair election”.

Guliani was a small fish who was destroyed because he wouldn’t refute Trump and even supported Trump’s claims on the election. Does anyone else think 75 million dollars in punitive damages is a little excessive?

Giuliani only had to keep his mouth shut and he’d be okay, but he willfully repeated lies, again and again. He also happens to be one of the richest lawyers in the US and such things are taken into account by the court but I guess that is something you didn’t know.

If they can take millions from Trump along with his business in New York then even Musk would be an easy target.

Well, that shows us how much you know about the case, basically nothing.

Blumenthal is already targeting Tesla and the government is going after Musk and Space X for not hiring immigrants that the government had previously denied were eligible

I see you didn’t bother to inform yourself about Tesla’s autopilot-problems which have caused a lot of accidents because what’s another death due to it, or the Immigration and Nationality Act which Space-X has been violating since 2018. And in regards to the whole “previously denied were eligible”, here’s the relevant part from the legal filing:
In job postings and public statements over several years, SpaceX wrongly claimed that under federal regulations known as “export control laws,” SpaceX could hire only U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents, sometimes referred to as “green card holders.” Export control laws impose no such hiring restrictions. Moreover, asylees’ and refugees’ permission to live and work in the United States does not expire, and they stand on equal footing with U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents under export control laws. Under these laws, companies like SpaceX can hire asylees and refugees for the same positions they would hire U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents. And once hired, asylees and refugees can access export-controlled information and materials without additional government approval, just like U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents.

And some further information:
Because SpaceX works with certain goods, software, technology and technical data (referred to here as export-controlled items), SpaceX must comply with export control laws and regulations, including the International Traffic in Arms Regulations and the Export Administration Regulations. Under these regulations, asylees, refugees, lawful permanent residents, U.S. citizens and U.S. nationals working at U.S. companies can access export-controlled items without authorization from the U.S. government. Therefore, these laws do not require SpaceX to treat asylees and refugees differently than U.S. citizens or green card holders.

Seriously, are you this uninformed while putting forth the argument that some people are exempt from the law and shouldn’t be investigated?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

And I have ask, what the fuck are people terrified of if Biden is re-elected? More impotent politics? Playing catchup with GOP’s grievance politics? Do you even have any idea what people are supposedly afraid of that isn’t some scary fairytale told by the GOP?

Just off the top of my head.

  1. No control of our Southern Border.
  2. Bidenomics.
  3. Putting America last.
  4. Having a mumbling sock puppet negotiating and representing the US.
  5. Bribery and corruption.
  6. Two-tiered Justice System.
  7. Further dividing the American people.
  8. No free and fair elections.
  9. Selling jobs and manufacturing to China.
  10. Not knowing who is running the country.
  11. Making the US energy dependent.
  12. USING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO ATTACK YOUR POLITICAL ENEMIES.

I see you didn’t bother to inform yourself about Tesla’s autopilot-problems which have caused a lot of accidents because what’s another death due to it

That’s bullshit and proves my point. I own a 2020 Model S with Full Self Driving and it is safer than any car I have ever owned and the cost of insurance is proof of that. I used to drive a 2013 Genisis coupe that I paid 35k for and the insurance on my 70k Tesla was less. I’ve driven it from one end of the country to the other and I have never seen a Tesla with a dent in it at any of the superchargers I’ve been to. Due to updates, my Tesla is better today than the day I bought it and there aren’t many cars you can say that about.

I worked aerospace for 50 years before I retired and because of ITAR restrictions we had to bring in proof of US citizenship. According to TS2 Space, SpaceX only hires US citizens to avoid legal complications and ensure compliance with ITAR regulations. ITAR, or the International Traffic in Arms Regulations, places restrictions on the transfer of sensitive technology and information to non-US citizens or entities. For example, ITAR prohibits foreigners from using or testing night vision equipment, even on US soil.

Again, the government going after their perceived enemies.

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bonk says:

Re: Re: Re:5

That’s bullshit and proves my point. I own a 2020 Model S with Full Self Driving

  • A Washington Post analysis of federal data found that vehicles guided by Autopilot have been involved in more than 700 crashes, at least 19 of them fatal, since its introduction in 2014, including the Banner crash.

And if you actually read the fine print about your Tesla you’ll discover it’s not actually “fully self driving”, even though Musk 7 years ago said that autonomous vehicles were a solved problem and the software is still in beta. So I have ask myself why the NHTSA told Tesla to recall 363000 vehicles and fix the damn FSD. Have you asked yourself the same?

I worked aerospace for 50 years before I retired and because of ITAR restrictions we had to bring in proof of US citizenship.

So the justice department is lying then? Then you could easily prove them wrong by quoting the relevant law or regulation, couldn’t you? Or perhaps, just perhaps, laws are amended and changed over a period of 50 years.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And if you actually read the fine print about your Tesla you’ll discover it’s not actually “fully self driving”, even though Musk 7 years ago said that autonomous vehicles were a solved problem and the software is still in beta. So I have ask myself why the NHTSA told Tesla to recall 363000 vehicles and fix the damn FSD. Have you asked yourself the same?

Autopilot is essentially adaptive cruise control with lane departure avoidance. Autopilot reads the speed limit signs, stop signs and signal lights. Full Self Driving does all of that plus it ties into the cars navigation system and will take you from one destination to another, on and off freeways and along the quickest route (if that is what you have it set to). I have Full Self Driving. About every six weeks or so I get a new update. I got one yesterday and as I’m typing this response, the car is being updated. Since Tesla didn’t agree that FSD needed a particular update I’m not sure if this update addresses that recall. All it says is “minor fixes”. In the event my car is part of the 363,000, I’m sure they will just send out another update as they had in previous recalls.

The car requires you to periodically jiggle the steering wheel to remain in FSD and it will warn you if you don’t. You can override that with a weight, but you are taking away a safeguard just like people not using Bluetooth when talking on their phones.

So the justice department is lying then? Then you could easily prove them wrong by quoting the relevant law or regulation, couldn’t you? Or perhaps, just perhaps, laws are amended and changed over a period of 50 years.

When I started out in aerospace we were in the middle of a “Cold War” and restrictions were a lot tighter. When I worked on the B2, you had to report if you had any foreign nationals living next to you. We lived in an apartment building and there were so many different accents that I started asking people where they were from. Turns out, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Romania, and Bulgaria—so we moved.

It is not just Tesla, and Space X, they are going after all his businesses. I wonder how long before someone in a deep Blue jurisdiction will sue Elon for a trillion dollars and our two-tiered-system-of-justice courts will go along with it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I wonder how long before someone in a deep Blue jurisdiction will sue Elon for a trillion dollars and our two-tiered-system-of-justice courts will go along with it.

About as long as it’ll be before someone in a deep red state manages to legally kick Joe Biden off the ballot in that state despite no real evidence of wrongdoing that would necessitate his disqualification.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

About as long as it’ll be before someone in a deep red state manages to legally kick Joe Biden off the ballot in that state despite no real evidence of wrongdoing that would necessitate his disqualification.

Texas is already talking about that. “Evidence of wrongdoing that would necessitate disqualification” is now in the eye of the beholder.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Evidence of wrongdoing that would necessitate disqualification” is now in the eye of the beholder.

Plenty of proof exists that Donald Trump and his cronies attempted to subvert American democracy and undo the results of a free and fair election⁠—and incited an insurrectionist riot at the Capitol on the day of the certification of that election.

No proof exists that Joe Biden has committed any crime, let alone a crime on the level of insurrection that⁠—per the Constitution⁠—would necessitate his disqualification from holding public office.

But sure, tell me again how Biden deserves to be yanked off the ballot and Trump doesn’t. See how well that argument lands in actual reality instead of your right-wing blue-lives-matter fantasy land.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

But sure, tell me again how Biden deserves to be yanked off the ballot and Trump doesn’t. See how well that argument lands in actual reality instead of your right-wing blue-lives-matter fantasy land.

First let me say neither one of them should be yanked off the ballot and neither one should be the target of a political prosecution, but in the end, I think they both will be.

I will answer your question on Biden.

Hunter was paid millions for his access to Joe. It is very common in communist countries that officials are outwardly poor, but their relatives are rich, so the Ukrainians and the Chinese are very familiar with the scheme. “If you want the father to do something, pay the son”. Joe claims he was never involved in his son’s business, yet there are pictures of him with Hunter’s customers and there wouldn’t have been a business without Joe. When Joe was no longer Vice President Burisma cut Hunter’s salary in half and Hunter left Burisma in 2019.

Analysis of Hunter Biden’s hard drive shows he and his firm took in about $11 million from 2013 to 2018 (nbcnews.com)
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/analysis-hunter-bidens-hard-drive-shows-firm-took-11-million-2013-2018-rcna29462

The Bidens’ Influence Peddling Timeline – United States House Committee on Oversight and Accountability
https://oversight.house.gov/the-bidens-influence-peddling-timeline/

There are lots of people in the Swamp that excuse this corruption and Trump was impeached for even asking about it so one could only wonder how common this is. The vast sums of the Clinton Foundation dried up when Hilary wasn’t crowned President.

Now with the impeachment inquiry in effect, the House will be able subpoena records, bank statements and LLC’s. Finding any link between Joe and Hunter’s business will open Joe up to impeachment, bribery, Influence peddling and corruption charges.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

neither one should be the target of a political prosecution, but in the end, I think they both will be

The government has a mountain of evidence against Donald Trump in regards to his role in the insurrection; it’s all laid out in the four different indictments. Republicans admit that they have no hard evidence of Biden committing even an impeachment-worthy offense, never mind something the GOP could actually put him in jail for after he’s no longer president. But sure, tell me again how Trump’s criminal cases are “political” and “evidence-free” or that there’s evidence of Biden committing crimes.

Hunter was paid millions for his access to Joe.

So what? Unless you have proof that Joe Biden himself committed a criminal act (which even the GOP admits), what Hunter did may reflect poorly on his father, but it doesn’t make Joe Biden a criminal. Here’s a hint for the future: The GOP talking about accusations against “the Biden crime family” means they don’t have any evidence on “Joe Biden”⁠—if they did, they’d mention him by name.

There are lots of people in the Swamp that excuse this corruption and Trump was impeached for even asking about it

Trump was impeached for seeking a quid pro quo with Ukraine over national aid funding in exchange for possible dirt on Joe Biden.

Finding any link between Joe and Hunter’s business will open Joe up to impeachment, bribery, Influence peddling and corruption charges.

The GOP hasn’t found a solid link yet and they’ve been going at this investigation for quite a while. And while I’m not going to rule out the idea that they won’t find any evidence, that the GOP is admitting they don’t have any evidence this far out into their investigations doesn’t bode well for their chances.

Meanwhile, the evidence against Donald Trump in his civil and criminal cases is abundant because he and his dipshit cronies couldn’t stop finding new and exciting ways to break the law while under the cloak of government power. Add that in to his talk of wanting to be a dictator from the get-go of a theoretical second term, his anti-immigrant rhetoric that sounds awfully similar to what Hitler had to say on that subject, and his promise to prosecute all of his political enemies upon taking office, and…well, if you’re supporting Trump now, you’re not really making yourself look like you want anything other than the GOP to begin an American dictatorship.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Hunter was paid millions for his access to Joe.

He was? Funny that, if that was the case why isn’t Joe Biden already impeached then? Here’s a hint for you: Don’t present allegations as facts.

Analysis of Hunter Biden’s hard drive shows he and his firm took in about $11 million from 2013 to 2018 (nbcnews.com)

The drive came from Rudy, it had been tampered with. If you don’t believe me, check with the guy who made the original copy.

Joe claims he was never involved in his son’s business, yet there are pictures of him with Hunter’s customers and there wouldn’t have been a business without Joe.

Lets go with your reasoning that pictures prove guilt. Want me to show you pictures of Trump and Epstein? Since those pictures exist it must mean that Trump was neck deep in sex trafficking, doesn’t it? Kinda fits with him also buying the Miss Universe Pageant – easy access to new victims. All proved by his “grab’em by the pussy” statement.

Want to reconsider your reasoning in light of that?

There are lots of people in the Swamp that excuse this corruption and Trump was impeached for even asking about it so one could only wonder how common this is.

What have you been smoking? He has been impeached 2 times, the first time after he withheld military aid to Ukraine and days later in a phone call to Zelensky, Trump told him if they did come up with “dirt” on Joe Biden it would ease the release of the aid. What’s worse, the supposed “dirt” was a conspiracy theory that originated from 4chan that Trump believed in, even though all his aides told him it was false.

I guess if you squint real hard and leave all reason behind, one can use the term “asking questions” instead of blackmail in this instance.

Seriously, where the fuck do you get your information because it has sure been “massaged” quite a bit to fool the gullible.

Now with the impeachment inquiry in effect, the House will be able subpoena records, bank statements and LLC’s. Finding any link between Joe and Hunter’s business will open Joe up to impeachment, bribery, Influence peddling and corruption charges.

Let me give you a hint of how this will play out. The inquiry won’t find anything of relevance, but they will find something that can be construed as bad if they just spin it the right way. The GOP will then use this to whip the media into a frenzy for public consumption which will influence some voters not to vote for Biden. The inquiry will drag on and on with this happening every time the media frenzy dies down. This pattern of behavior is something the GOP have used at least the 4 last elections now. Just go back and look at the attacks on Democratic candidates that had no substance at all, but it helped Republicans get votes.

People have short memories it seems, especially people who vote Republican. Well, except we still get the occasional “But Clinton..” or “But Obama..”.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

What have you been smoking? He has been impeached 2 times, the first time after he withheld military aid to Ukraine and days later in a phone call to Zelensky, Trump told him if they did come up with “dirt” on Joe Biden it would ease the release of the aid. What’s worse, the supposed “dirt” was a conspiracy theory that originated from 4chan that Trump believed in, even though all his aides told him it was false.

Show me where in the conversation that Trump threatens to withhold anything.
Read the transcript of Trump’s conversation with Volodymyr Zelensky | CNN Politics
https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/25/politics/donald-trump-ukraine-transcript-call/index.html

This is the only place in the conversation where Trump even mentions the Bidens.

“The other thing, There’s a lot of talk about Biden’s son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it… It sounds horrible to me.”

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Immediately after Zelenskyy says this:

We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.

…Trump says this:

I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it.

And then he goes on to ask Zelenskyy to investigate Hunter and Joe Biden.

Even if the quid pro quo isn’t blatant, it’s still implied by the timing of those statements: “Give me dirt on my political rival and I’ll be willing to sell you missiles.” And even if you want to argue that there is no quid pro quo, Trump still tried to have a foreign leader interfere with American politics by asking said leader to give up potentially damaging information on Joe Biden (or his family). If’n you want to talk about election interference, Donald Trump is the president who…

  1. asked a foreign leader to directly interfere in American politics on his behalf;
  2. directly called two canvassers in Michigan and straight-up offered them a bribe (legal representation) in exchange for not doing their job (certifying the election);
  3. filed several lawsuits to overturn the results of the 2020 election without any evidence of any significant voter fraud that would bolster his case; and…
  4. rallied a crowd into marching on (and into) the Capitol with the intent of delaying or even preventing the certification of the 2020 election results.

And we have plenty of evidence of all of that, so don’t try and blow smoke up my ass about how I’m living in a fantasy world. You’re the one who refuses to accept this reality and the painful truth it presents: Donald Trump is a fascist and the GOP is a fascist political party.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

And then he goes on to ask Zelenskyy to investigate Hunter and Joe Biden.

That is just bullshit and you know it.

Crowdstrike had nothing to do with Joe Biden.

The conversation continues way past the mention of “almost ready to buy more Javelins” before bringing up “Biden’s son” (who as you point out is not Joe Biden) is mentioned.

And we have plenty of evidence of all of that, so don’t try and blow smoke up my ass about how I’m living in a fantasy world. You’re the one who refuses to accept this reality and the painful truth it presents: Donald Trump is a fascist and the GOP is a fascist political party.

So if Trump wins the 2024 election (which seems very likely) and the democrats refuse to accept Trump as President, does that make them insurrectionist?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

So

I don’t typically respond to otherwording, but in this case, I’ll make an exception.

So if Trump wins the 2024 election (which seems very likely) and the democrats refuse to accept Trump as President, does that make them insurrectionist?

The GOP, by and large, refused to accept Biden as the winner. They just went a step further in their refusal by backing Trump’s play to undermine the election results by any means necessary⁠—up to and including the insurrection. If and when Democrats do anything similar, we can have a talk about whether what the Democrats did was an insurrection. But right now, we only have the one insurrection to go by, and that was the fault of Donald Trump.

Incidentally, I notice that you didn’t have any counter for the four points I made to back up my claim that Trump is a fascist, including the point about asking Zelenskyy to interfere in American politics. Are you conceding my point, or are you trying to figure out how to DARVO it?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Incidentally, I notice that you didn’t have any counter for the four points I made to back up my claim that Trump is a fascist, including the point about asking Zelenskyy to interfere in American politics.
1. directly called two canvassers in Michigan and straight-up offered them a bribe (legal representation) in exchange for not doing their job (certifying the election);
2. filed several lawsuits to overturn the results of the 2020 election without any evidence of any significant voter fraud that would bolster his case; and…
3. rallied a crowd into marching on (and into) the Capitol with the intent of delaying or even preventing the certification of the 2020 election results.

  1. That’s bullshit.
  2. Show me the transcript of the call. Plus the fact the women said Trump had no impact on her decision.
  3. Filing lawsuits is now illegal?????
  4. We have been over and over and over that.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

That’s bullshit.

You’ll need to be more specific here.

Show me the transcript of the call.

I linked to a story containing quotes from the call; don’t blame me if you’re unable to find the link, click on it, and read the story yourself. But since you asked so nicely~!

On a Nov. 17, 2020, phone call, which also involved Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel, Trump told Monica Palmer and William Hartmann, the two GOP Wayne County canvassers, they’d look “terrible” if they signed the documents after they first voted in opposition and then later in the same meeting voted to approve certification of the county’s election results, according to the recordings.

“We’ve got to fight for our country,” said Trump on the recordings, made by a person who was present for the call with Palmer and Hartmann. “We can’t let these people take our country away from us.”

McDaniel, a Michigan native and the leader of the Republican Party nationally, said at another point in the call, “If you can go home tonight, do not sign it. … We will get you attorneys.”

To which Trump added: “We’ll take care of that.”

Palmer and Hartmann left the canvassers meeting without signing the official statement of votes for Wayne County, and the following day, they unsuccessfully attempted to rescind their votes in favor of certification, filing legal affidavits claiming they were pressured.

The moves from Palmer, Hartmann and Trump, had they been successful, threatened to throw the statewide certification of Michigan’s 2020 election into doubt.

(Source)

Now, I don’t know about you, but promising to take care of a canvasser’s legal bills⁠—which can get quite expensive⁠—in exchange for a refusal to certify an election sounds like a quid pro quo to me. So go ahead and show me how that isn’t an attempt to bribe election workers into helping drag out the certification of a free and fair election for so long that Trump could remain in the White House despite having lost the election.

Filing lawsuits is now illegal?

Did I say it was, bootlicker? No. But it shows a pattern of behavior that ties together his other actions by a single motive: to keep the power of the Oval Office by any means necessary despite having lost the election fair and square.

We have been over and over and over that.

Again: You’ll need to be more specific here.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

So if Trump wins the 2024 election (which seems very likely) and the democrats refuse to accept Trump as President, does that make them insurrectionist?

Does it? Let’s see what happened the previous time Dems refused to accept Trump as President, in 2016. You had disappointed Americans marching in the streets, angry and tearful that Trump had won, and your team gloating that they could all go choke on a bag of dicks… and yet they didn’t swarm Capitol Hill screaming “Hang Joe Biden”.

Huh. It’s almost like the Dems weren’t as extreme as your team was and therefore don’t look like they should be punished for insurrection. It’s almost as if not doing actions that cause government officials certifying an election win to flee for their lives doesn’t count as insurrection, imagine that! Who could have possibly seen this coming?!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

You had disappointed Americans marching in the streets, angry and tearful that Trump had won, and your team gloating that they could all go choke on a bag of dicks… and yet they didn’t swarm Capitol Hill screaming “Hang Joe Biden”.

And moreover, those protestors accepted Trump’s victory⁠—which was the reason they were protesting in the first place.

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Kinetic Gothic says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Hunter was paid millions for his access to Joe…

Which seems to have bought those people paying him little if anything,(not to mention how much of that money came in when Joe Biden had little influence to peddle) the best folks can point at for a result allegedly of those payouts is that Joe played hardball in getting Victor Shokin fired, but then again, Biden was hardly alone in wanting him gone, So did the IMF, EU, World bank and a lot of Ukrainian civil society, because of the endemic corruption in his office…

And Trump’s influence peddling makes Biden’s look like a penny-ante game, and pretty much cut out the middleman. His Dc hotel was the go-to place for people doing buisness with his administration, and it more direct access was for sale at Mar-A-Lago. Don Jr pitched access to the family as a selling point for their condos in india, and cashed in with some some perks on his sheep hunt in Mongolia as well. And if you want the figure who chased in the most, it’s not the son, but the Son-in-law. When Qatar bucked the Saudi’s and reopened diplomatic relations with Iran, the Saudi’s with Trump’s support blockaded them, and Trump threatened them with being added to the list of State Sponsors of Terror. The Qatari’s responded by throwing money in Trump’s direction, spending at his hotels, renting offices (and leaving them empty) in one of hos buildings. During all this Jared was serving official as Trump’s middle eastern envoy, and went his own way engaging in cowboy diplomacy without talking much to the state department. The end result was that the Qatari’s maintained their relationship with Iran, the blockade fizzled, Trump flip-flopped on the Terrorism designation, and Jared got billion dollar bailout on his white elephant at 666 5th from a Qutari backed investment firm.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No control of our Southern Border

Gee, maybe Trump should have built that wall he spent his entire election campaign talking about then. But nah, instead he decided to boast about how much pussy he was grabbing. He had four years to put up some kind of effort, stacked the deck with his cronies, and chose to fuck around instead. That’s on him.

Two-tiered Justice System

A two-tiered justice system because billionaires got temporarily inconvenienced?

Selling jobs and manufacturing to China

If you thought that this wasn’t a thing before Biden, before Trump, you’re absolutely kidding yourself. The US hasn’t had manufacturing worth a damn because the money in the US isn’t in manufacturing, it’s in Wall Street. And to be realistic, I don’t think this is an issue that Trump could have solved either, because you’re not going to stop corporations from offshoring jobs to cheaper countries. Especially for manufacturing. Ask how many folk want to go back into a thankless, demanding task.

USING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO ATTACK YOUR POLITICAL ENEMIES.

The best you’ve managed to convince anyone is that maybe, just maybe, Biden might be as bad as Trump. Because Trump used attacking his political enemies the crux of his 2016 election campaign, and he’s made it very public that he intends to do so if he wins in 2024.

If that’s supposed to swing the needle in Trump’s favor I promise you that’s not helping. It makes you look like a goddamn doormat for a guy who wouldn’t even shit in your mouth if you sucked him off.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Just off the top of my head.

  1. No control of our Southern Border.
  2. Bidenomics.
  3. Putting America last.
  4. Having a mumbling sock puppet negotiating and representing the US.
  5. Bribery and corruption.
  6. Two-tiered Justice System.
  7. Further dividing the American people.
  8. No free and fair elections.
  9. Selling jobs and manufacturing to China.
  10. Not knowing who is running the country.
  11. Making the US energy dependent.
  12. USING THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO ATTACK YOUR POLITICAL ENEMIES.
  1. Yes, there is.
  2. Economy is doing very well, and inflation has remained consistently below that of other western democracies throughout Biden’s tenure.
  3. False
  4. False
  5. Less than under Trump, no more than under Obama or Bush.
  6. Nothing new.
  7. Not Biden’s fault.
  8. False, or at least no different from 2012 or 2016.
  9. No worse than Trump, Obama, or Bush; not attributable to or preventable by Biden (or Trump, for that matter).
  10. False.
  11. No moreso than before.
  12. False. Biden neither directed nor personally did these investigations or prosecutions; those come from mostly Republicans and Republican appointees.

That’s bullshit and proves my point. I own a 2020 Model S with Full Self Driving and it is safer than any car I have ever owned and the cost of insurance is proof of that.

Your personal experience doesn’t disprove the data.

Again, the government going after their perceived enemies.

I don’t think the government perceives Musk as an enemy.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Does anyone else think 75 million dollars in punitive damages is a little excessive?

It might’ve been less if a default judgement wasn’t issued because he didn’t cooperate..at all in discovery, as required. Then, in what I’m sure will be viewed as a ‘legendary legal move’ admitted that he knew what he said wasn’t true.

As a lawyer it’s not like he’s got the ‘cop option’ of claiming he’s too fucking stupid to know better. So yeah, gotta teach that stupid sonofabitch a lesson. Maybe being a cousin-fucker for so long screwed with his brain.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It might’ve been less if a default judgement wasn’t issued because he didn’t cooperate..at all in discovery, as required. Then, in what I’m sure will be viewed as a ‘legendary legal move’ admitted that he knew what he said wasn’t true.

Legal Eagle’s already spoken about this. Considering Rudy’s involved in several suits at this point, particularly the one involving Trump, he didn’t have much in the way of better options. Anything he submitted to court would be on the record to use against him in the other trial.

Of course, he wouldn’t be faced with such a Morton’s Fork if he wasn’t such a defamatory douchenozzle to begin with.

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Mamba (profile) says:

Re:

Why do you lie so transparently. It’s fucking pathetic.

The Muller Special Counsel indicted 34 people: 26 Russian nationals(some, known members of the GRU), 3 Russian organizations, and 7 US nationals. It also directly identified obstruction of the investigation by the Trump administration. Because the GOP has become the part of criminals.

Of the verified voter fraud cases from the 2020 presidential election onward, virtually ALL of them have been Republicans. Because the GOP has become the part of criminals.

The Hunter Laptop story has evaporated like a fart in the wind because the chain of custody is such a fucking mess, and Giuliani is a fucking inept criminal, that there are very few conclusion you can draw. Because the GOP has become the part of inept criminals.

And finally, using any poll right now as an indicator of likely success come election day shows a complete lack of understanding. About the only thing you might be able to read into is election results, and even that is pretty spotty historically. But if that does provide indication, it is very, very bad for the GOP.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Why do you lie so transparently. It’s fucking pathetic.
The Muller Special Counsel indicted 34 people: 26 Russian nationals(some, known members of the GRU), 3 Russian organizations, and 7 US nationals. It also directly identified obstruction of the investigation by the Trump administration. Because the GOP has become the part of criminals.

None of the Russians were brought to trial and none of the Americans were charged with colluding with the Russians. The Americans were charged with Process crimes (look it up) that had nothing to do with Russians.

Of the verified voter fraud cases from the 2020 presidential election onward, virtually ALL of them have been Republicans. Because the GOP has become the part of criminals.

In 2020 with our first ever election during a pandemic with mail in ballots for all and the claim was that nothing like this could ever happen..

Connecticut city’s ‘mishandled ballots’ fuel election skeptics. Experts call problem local, limited | AP News
https://apnews.com/article/mishandled-ballots-bridgeport-connecticut-election-security-70f95f347dfa1e581a6955027d64ae2d

It happened and it was one Democrat against another. Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016 yet he lost. That has never happened in any previous Presidential election. Do you understand why people were suspicious of the outcome?

The Hunter Laptop story has evaporated like a fart in the wind because the chain of custody is such a fucking mess, and Giuliani is a fucking inept criminal, that there are very few conclusion you can draw. Because the GOP has become the part of inept criminals.

The House just initiated an impeachment inquiry based a lot on the emails from Hunter’s laptop.

Just a question here. If you are an American politician and you send American jobs to other countries like China and in return they pay your son millions are you guilty of bribery?

And finally, using any poll right now as an indicator of likely success come election day shows a complete lack of understanding. About the only thing you might be able to read into is election results, and even that is pretty spotty historically. But if that does provide indication, it is very, very bad for the GOP.

March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

After the blatant interference by a weaponized judicial system into the 2024 election do you expect any Republican to accept a Democrat victory?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

After the blatant interference by a weaponized judicial system into the 2024 election do you expect any Republican to accept a Democrat victory?

I don’t expect them to accept a Democrat victory in any context. To the modern-day GOP, “Democrats won an election” means “Democrats cheated”, because the GOP believes that Republican rule⁠—not governance, rule⁠—should be the default of American society and anything that interferes with the GOP ruling over the U.S. is inherently criminal and unlawful. Doesn’t matter if Trump wriggles out of all his legal messes only to lose his third attempt to be elected president: The GOP (especially Trump) will still contend that something illegal happened even (and especially) if no proof of any illegalities is ever produced. The GOP doesn’t want anything but the power to rule the country and they’ll do anything to get it⁠—even if that means starting a second civil war to usurp power and kill anyone that gets in the way.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

After the blatant interference by a weaponized judicial system into the 2024 election do you expect any Republican to accept a Democrat victory?

That you still believe the justice system has been weaponized against Trump and that there is nothing that he has done illegal and should not have been indicted, again just goes to show how far you have your head up the orange man’s backside. And each comment you make just furthers that notion.

Maybe if you pulled you head out of Trumps ass, you might find that reality is quite different from the fantasy world you want to live in.

Remind me again which president nominated the current director of the FBI?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

That you still believe the justice system has been weaponized against Trump and that there is nothing that he has done illegal and should not have been indicted, again just goes to show how far you have your head up the orange man’s backside. And each comment you make just furthers that notion.

In the American Civil war 620,000 people died and no one was charged with insurrection. On Jan 6, one person died, and hundreds have been charged with insurrection. Some of those people charged weren’t even there.

An insurrection is a violent and organized rebellion or revolt against a government or political authority. It can also refer to the crime of inciting or participating in such a revolt.

There was no call for revolution, no Declaration of Independence, no secession from the Union, it wasn’t even as organized as a BLM riot yet people are being given decades in prison. The January 6th commission started using the term “insurrection” to make themselves seem more important and there was no pushback on the term. One person was charged with insurrection because they threw a water bottle at a Capitol Hill police officer. My son dodged more than his share of water bottles months earlier and the democrats offered to bail out the people who were throwing them.

In New York you have a crime with no victims that may result in Trump losing not only millions but his company as well. The result is a forgone conclusion.

In Georgia they are bending the law in a “unique” way by using the RICO stature to elevate election interference (which carries a maximum of one year in prison) so they can put Trump away for life.

In Colorado they are using “insurrection” to prevent Trump from even being on the ballot.

None of these venues is in a place where either Trump or even Giuliani could expect a fair trial.

These are just some examples of the weaponization of the Justice System.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

An insurrection is a violent and organized rebellion or revolt against a government or political authority. It can also refer to the crime of inciting or participating in such a revolt.

Hundreds of people marched on (and broke into) the Capitol on the 6th of January 2021 to disrupt the certification of the 2020 presidential election. Donald Trump and his associates are widely seen (at least by people who are in touch with this reality) as having engineered the events of that day and are known to have discussed ways of overturning the result of the election that weren’t (failed) lawsuits. Numerous police officers were attacked and injured by the insurrectionists; one of the rioters was shot and killed when she ignored orders by law enforcement to stop advancing towards a room where members of Congress were being kept safe. Video evidence shows a makeshift hangman’s gallows outside of the Capitol during the riot and numerous people chanting “hang Mike Pence” while they were inside or close to the Capitol. The point of the riot was to undermine the will of the voters and disrupt the certification of the election long enough so that the election couldn’t be formally certified and put up to a vote in the House of Representatives, which (per the one-state one-vote method) would almost certainly have voted to keep Donald Trump in power and overturn the will of the voters (both popularly and electorally).

Tell me how absolutely none of that qualifies as “a violent and organized rebellion or revolt against a government or political authority”. Go ahead. I’ll wait.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Tell me how absolutely none of that qualifies as “a violent and organized rebellion or revolt against a government or political authority”. Go ahead. I’ll wait.

With a span of 5 hours, it has got to be the shortest insurrection in the history of the world. The riots in Portland went on for nearly 200 days but no one is calling that an insurrection. Why not?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The riots in Portland went on for nearly 200 days but no one is calling that an insurrection. Why not?

Did those riots attempt to subvert American democracy by keeping in power the lawful loser of a presidential election who presented no actual evidence that his loss was the result of an amount of voter fraud that has never once been proven to have happened in any presidential election? Were those riots the result of several people instigating the rioters into action through speech laced with violent imagery after a months-long campaign to discredit the results of a presidential election both before and after the election?

If the answer to both of those questions is “no” (and they are), consider why those riots might be seen differently than the one that happened at a citadel of democracy during the day where the second most important function of that democracy (next to the inauguration) was being carried out.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I can’t explain why the DOJ under Trump did nothing. Can you?

Probably because the mayor of Portland was leading the protesters and the weaponization of the DOJ hadn’t occurred to Trump—at the time.

Do you see how dangerous this is? Just as everything is now racist; demonstrations, protest, riots and even speech will be labeled insurrection and sedition. Ted Wheeler now fits the definition of an insurrectionist.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Just as everything is now racist; demonstrations, protest, riots and even speech will be labeled insurrection and sedition.

Only by people like you who like their definitions arbitrary. Insurrection has a specific legal meaning. Look it up, then kick yourself in the ass for asking that stupid question.

Portland is not the capital of the entire US. I’m adding that because English appears to be a second language for you.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Only by people like you who like their definitions arbitrary. Insurrection has a specific legal meaning. Look it up, then kick yourself in the ass for asking that stupid question.
Portland is not the capital of the entire US. I’m adding that because English appears to be a second language for you.

So insurrection can only happen in Washington DC?

That hardly jells with this

Insurrection is a noun that means an organized and often violent act of rebellion against an established government. It can also refer to any act of engaging in such a revolt.

Ted Wheeler participated and led protests that turned into riots and he did it night after night. In many of these riots, they attempted to burn down a federal building all the while chanting “Shut it down” regarding the government. This continued for more than six months, and nobody was charged with insurrection. The Jan 6 riot lasted less than 5 hours.

In 1954, four Puerto Ricans shot up the Capitol and none were charged with insurrection.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

So insurrection can only happen in Washington DC?

Well, what exactly would you ‘capture’ if you did it anywhere else? The Senate and House don’t do their business in Portland, dumbass.

This continued for more than six months, and nobody was charged with insurrection. The Jan 6 riot lasted less than 5 hours.

Again, since you’ve got to be the densest motherfucking troll on here – take it up with the Trump DOJ. Trump’s incompetence is his fault, not Biden’s. And what goes on in Trump’s empty head is not something I’m privy to.

In 1954, four Puerto Ricans shot up the Capitol and none were charged with insurrection.

Jealous are you?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Well, what exactly would you ‘capture’ if you did it anywhere else? The Senate and House don’t do their business in Portland, dumbass.

Yet the fourteenth amendment Sec. 3 was written to punish people who never set foot in Washington DC “dumbass”.

Again, since you’ve got to be the densest motherfucking troll on here – take it up with the Trump DOJ. Trump’s incompetence is his fault, not Biden’s. And what goes on in Trump’s empty head is not something I’m privy to.

Lessons learned.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

demonstrations, protest, riots and even speech will be labeled insurrection and sedition

When those are aimed at subverting the certification of the results of an election and therefore subverting American democracy? Hell yes, they are. Now show me where, say, a “BLM riot” attempted to subvert democracy in the same way as the January 6 insurrection attempted to subvert democracy.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

When those are aimed at subverting the certification of the results of an election and therefore subverting American democracy? Hell yes, they are.

There were GOP Senators and congressmen in the Capitol objecting to the certification of the election at the time. Their objections were brushed aside by the majority democrats. Were they also insurrectionist?

Now show me where, say, a “BLM riot” attempted to subvert democracy in the same way as the January 6 insurrection attempted to subvert democracy.

Both riots were violent, but the BLM riot chant was “shut it down” while the Jan 6 riot chant was “USA”. What did the BLM rioters want to shut down?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

There were GOP Senators and congressmen in the Capitol objecting to the certification of the election at the time. Their objections were brushed aside by the majority democrats. Were they also insurrectionist?

They were following the rules of Congress for such matters. Their objections were also bullshit because neither the Republicans objecting to the certification nor the candidate for whom they gave up their dignity and integrity were ever able to provide any evidence that the results of the 2020 presidential election were arrived at by an unheard-of amount of voter fraud.

Both riots were violent, but the BLM riot chant was “shut it down” while the Jan 6 riot chant was “USA”.

There were other chants at the insurrection⁠—notably, “hang Mike Pence”, which was a direct threat aimed at the man whose job it was to certify the election results.

What did the BLM rioters want to shut down?

I would assume they want to shut down the kind of corrupt policing that has lead to the countless deaths of unarmed Black people who were extrajudiciously executed by police officers without first facing a trial for whatever crimes they were killed for allegedly committing. And I should note that the riots of which you speak were borne from what were largely peaceful protests that unfortunately got out of hand. The insurrection was violent from damn near the get-go, because it wasn’t terribly long after the insurrectionists breached the Capitol grounds that they breached the Capitol building and began hunting for Congresspeople.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

One person was charged with insurrection because they threw a water bottle at a Capitol Hill police officer.

Oh, this guy? He did a bit more than that, you hypocritical shitbag.

https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4059304-man-arrested-for-throwing-bottle-at-capitol-police-stealing-helmet-as-war-trophy-on-jan-6/

He was charged with assaulting, resisting or impeding officers, civil disorder, disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds and theft of government property.

So he assaulted people like your asshole son, took his helmet, and you’re here schlepping for him like he’s some kind of political prisoner? What if that was your daughter-in-law, dickhead?

Great self-own there, stupidass. Keep them coming, lest you forget what the fuck you’re even talking about.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

So he assaulted people like your asshole son, took his helmet, and you’re here schlepping for him like he’s some kind of political prisoner? What if that was your daughter-in-law, dickhead?

Here we get to the crux of the issue. Cops are to be worshipped, unless they happen to be disposable mooks for the true authoritarian that davec is desperately simping for.

Like I’ve previously said, he’d bend over backwards to explain away why the cops who shoot his wife should be found innocent.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The cops haven’t shot my wife and I doubt if they’ve shot your wife or husband so why all the hate? Just hating for a friend?

The point is not your wife getting shot, but watching you jump through hoops of fire and break your back carrying water for cops who, under present trends of their trigger habits, would absolutely justify shooting your wife in the event they got the wrong house address by claiming that you had a firearm in the house – which you have admitted to possessing – and saying that they feared for their life.

When the above scenario was presented to you your first reaction was to blubber, “But what if they had a good reason”. You have proven, time and time again, to prefer having your wife shot by a cop fucking up than see a cop’s reputation besmirched.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

When the above scenario was presented to you your first reaction was to blubber, “But what if they had a good reason”. You have proven, time and time again, to prefer having your wife shot by a cop fucking up than see a cop’s reputation besmirched.

I assume you are the Anonymous Chickenshit who first came up with the ridiculous scenario and you keep bringing it up. I pointed out at the time just how asinine your point was. You wanted me to hate the police because they might kill my wife, yet they haven’t and the chances that they might are probably less than 1 in a billion.

But (for shits and giggles) I gave you a scenario of a wounded police officer lying on his back while his assailant stands over him aiming his pistol for the kill shot and in a last-ditch attempt to save his life the police officer empties his revolver at the assailant and one of the bullets hits and kills my wife. The fact that I wouldn’t demand the wounded police officer then be charged with first degree murder somehow proved to you that I was Chauvin’s accomplice.

I’ll tell you what. You hold back on your hatred for the cops until they kill your wife and I will promise to hate the cops if they kill mine.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You wanted me to hate the police because they might kill my wife, yet they haven’t and the chances that they might are probably less than 1 in a billion.

What about another persons wife? It has happened you know, so the “hypothetical” question isn’t really hypothetical, it’s more of big fucking burning bush that shows everyone that your only criteria for who is good or bad is that if they are cops or family they are good, regardless of their actions. There’s not even a hint of admitting that there are shitty cops that do some really shitty things, everything from petty crimes to straight up murder.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

What about another persons wife? It has happened you know, so the “hypothetical” question isn’t really hypothetical, it’s more of big fucking burning bush that shows everyone that your only criteria for who is good or bad is that if they are cops or family they are good, regardless of their actions. There’s not even a hint of admitting that there are shitty cops that do some really shitty things, everything from petty crimes to straight up murder.

I think you have been burning some bush.

If my wife gets murdered, there is a 34% chance that I did it. The chances of her being killed by the medical profession are 400 times more likely than her being killed by a cop. She is far more likely to be killed by a stranger, a hit and run accident, a slip and fall or drowning than being killed by a cop. So if you want me to hate based on threats to my wife, cops are still way down the list.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

In fact, I think that’s grounds for the police to kick in the door to davec’s house. They probably have legal reason to shoot anything that moves while in there, and torch the place down to be sure.

Of course davec wouldn’t object to such a necessary deployment of police forces to neutralize a threat… right?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You wanted me to hate the police because they might kill my wife, yet they haven’t and the chances that they might are probably less than 1 in a billion.

I don’t need you to hate the police. Realistically, that isn’t going to happen. What I did was use facts that you provided – namely, your gun ownership – and point out that it would be sufficient grounds for police to shoot your wife, even if they had bashed in the door of a mistaken address. This isn’t news. Cops fuck up on their warrants, the addresses of where they need to be, and whether or not the person holding up their hands in surrender is actually a threat or not. All they need to squeal is “I feared for my life!” and BANG BANG BANG, one dead Mrs. Davec.

The fact that I wouldn’t demand the wounded police officer then be charged with first degree murder somehow proved to you that I was Chauvin’s accomplice.

The fact is, I predicted that you would have your lips so surgically attached to the groin of the police, you’d write up your own fanfiction of how the police would, in fact, be justified in shooting your wife instead of the perp that they were looking for. And lo and behold, you fell for that bait hook, line and sinker.

You’re not Chauvin’s accomplice, you just fellate him so much that I wonder if your lungs have started adapting to breathing Cowper’s fluid instead of oxygen.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

He was charged with assaulting, resisting or impeding officers, civil disorder, disorderly and disruptive conduct in a restricted building or grounds and theft of government property.

So when the BLM rioters used sharpened PVC spears and frozen water bottles to attack cops while chanting “Shut it down” in regards to the government. The democrats offered to bail them out. No charges of insurrection. When they burned down police stations and attacked federal buildings again no charges of insurrection.

I was referring to this guy.

West Jordan man sentenced to prison for role in Jan. 6 Capitol riot (fox13now.com)
https://www.fox13now.com/news/crime/west-jordan-man-sentenced-to-prison-for-role-in-jan-6-capitol-riot

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You can’t be this daft, can you?

Regardless who did what, when is it okay to use the bad actions of one person as an excuse and defense of another persons bad actions? Hint: Never.

How old are you? Not dry behind the ears yet? Because as excuses and argumentative defenses go it was childishly stupid. What you said is analogous to “Oh, Bob is totally okay since he only tortures his wife, his neighbor Brad is much worse though, he beats his wife!”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Regardless who did what, when is it okay to use the bad actions of one person as an excuse and defense of another persons bad actions?

This is literally the rationale that the police use, when you think about it. See enough people of a certain profile or demographic fuck up, they then assume that everyone else is just as bad, and go in all guns blazing.

Of course they then get mad as hell when you use it on them to explain why no cop these days seems to be interested in getting a warrant.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

In an honest Justice System everyone is treated equally

In an honest justice system, at least two of the sitting justices on the Supreme Court would’ve resigned when the bribery of those justices by rich motherfuckers like Harlan Crow came to light.

In an honest justice system, abortion rights would’ve never been revoked and women wouldn’t have to fight for their own bodily autonomy in the courts.

In an honest justice system, people who commit crimes so brazenly and openly that the evidence of their crimes is overwhelming would be held accountable for their actions even (and especially) they were, or still are, in a position of sociopolitical power.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, there’s another?

Adams admitted to charging a police line and twice striking an officer in the helmet, as well as throwing a water bottle and helping pull a barricade from police.

Just a note on that, you stupid shit, you. He wasn’t charged with insurrection either.

He pleaded guilty in August to a felony count of assaulting, resisting or impeding a federal officer.

Car to point out where this second guy was charged with insurrection, or do you get off on making a fucking fool out of yourself?

When they burned down police stations and attacked federal buildings again no charges of insurrection.

It must be they decided to ignore it like they do with shoplifters. Probably the DA’s fault. And remind me who’s justice department would be responsible for an insurrection charge during that time. Here’s a hint, dipshit – it wasn’t Biden.

Keep right on digging, fuckface. Being stupid is one thing, but being cocksure of your stupidity is a whole new level of mental illness.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

In New York you have a crime with no victims that may result in Trump losing not only millions but his company as well

Ah, yes, because getting millions you’re not entitled to is clearly a victimless crime in the same way that embezzlement is, because you only find out that someone has been taking away funds until years after the fact.

The result is a forgone conclusion

Trump certainly doesn’t think so.

Maybe it wouldn’t be such a forgone conclusion if 1) Trump didn’t consistently have such shit quality lawyers and 2) Trump actually paid his lawyers.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

One person was charged with insurrection because they threw a water bottle at a Capitol Hill police officer. My son dodged more than his share of water bottles months earlier and the democrats offered to bail out the people who were throwing them.

Maybe they started agreeing with you that a water bottle at a cop is an offense punishable by death and they started to follow your suggestions.

Hey, if we’re all coming up with shitty excuses…

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

None of the Russians were brought to trial […]

Due to Russia not extraditing them to America to stand trial.

[…] and none of the Americans were charged with colluding with the Russians.

You’re being pedantic here. For one thing, many of them chose to plead guilty to lesser crimes rather than stand trial under more serious crimes that they could have been charged with. Read the full report.

The Americans were charged with Process crimes (look it up) that had nothing to do with Russians.

They were charged with things like lying to the FBI about their connections with Russia, among other things. Saying or implying that none of the charges had anything to do with Russians is disingenuous.

In 2020 with our first ever election during a pandemic with mail in ballots for all and the claim was that nothing like this could ever happen..

First, many states have allowed mail-in ballots for any reason for many elections before 2020. That some other states also decided to do so in 2020 due to the pandemic doesn’t make this the drastic change you make it out to be.

Second, the 2020 election was more closely watched for tampering and fraud than previous elections, and the fraud being alleged would have to be on a scale that is both unprecedented and would have been caught.

Third, no one says it could never happen. It’s just so highly improbable to happen without leaving some evidence, especially given known trends on this sort of thing, that one would need to present really good evidence to make it worth seriously considering, and for this particular election, based on what was presented, it is almost certain that that didn’t happen in that one election at a scale that would have affected the general election, only local elections and maybe one or two state elections.

Connecticut city’s ‘mishandled ballots’ fuel election skeptics. Experts call problem local, limited

Note that it said that experts called the problem local and limited. This is entirely consistent with what non-Trumpers have been saying. Yes, some issues did occur, but they were limited and easy to detect.

It happened and it was one Democrat against another.

Another distinction. It wasn’t between two different parties, so there wouldn’t be any reason to believe it would relate to any other race except that one, specifically.

Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016 yet he lost.

Because more votes were cast in 2020 than in 2016. There were a number of reasons for this, including unprecedentedly high voter turnout (which has historically been rather low) and a higher population.

It’s also worth noting that Trump lost the popular vote in 2016, too, so he could get more votes total and still lose even disregarding the increase in the total number of voters.

That has never happened in any previous Presidential election.

I’m not sure that’s true, but it doesn’t really matter since it indicates exactly nothing.

Do you understand why people were suspicious of the outcome?

I understand why people who don’t understand math would be suspicious. I don’t understand why anyone who does understand math would be, nor why those suspicions remain after it went through the courts.

The House just initiated an impeachment inquiry based a lot on the emails from Hunter’s laptop.

Republicans have initiated a lot of inquiries into Democrats over the past few decades. The worst they succeeded in showing was that Bill Clinton lied to Congress about having had an affair and that Hillary Clinton used a private server for government emails—like pretty much every previous Secretary of State—and without criminal intent. Notably, neither of those were the things actually being investigated.

Suffice to say that I’m not convinced that that means there is anything actually problematic for Joe Biden involving the laptop. It probably just means that Republicans are engaging in yet another petty, meritless investigation of someone they dislike in a desperate attempt to discredit them to voters. Just like with Benghazi, Whitewater, and the emails.

Just a question here. If you are an American politician and you send American jobs to other countries like China and in return they pay your son millions are you guilty of bribery?

Those jobs weren’t sent by Biden or Trump or anyone else who was in the government for the past few administrations. That’s just what’s happened since the 90s. I don’t think either Trump nor Biden could’ve done anything to prevent it, either.

At any rate, there is no evidence that anything involving Hunter impacted any of Biden’s policy decisions, nor that he was even aware of these payments. Correlation doesn’t equal causation.

March 2023 Trump indicted over Hush Money Trial set for March 25, 2024
June 2023 Trump indicted over Classified Docs Trial set for May 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Election Interference Trial set for March 4, 2024
August 2023 Trump indicted over Georgia Election Trial not set

And who indicted him? Republican and conservative prosecutors, in front of Grand Juries, and most of the judges were Republican appointees. The witnesses are also Republicans. There is no evidence that any of these were politically motivated.

After the blatant interference by a weaponized judicial system into the 2024 election do you expect any Republican to accept a Democrat victory?

No, because Republicans won’t accept a Democrat victory under any circumstances due to their self-radicalization. There is also no evidence that the judicial system is being weaponized in the first place here since Democrats have had little to no involvement in any of it.

Kinetic Gothic says:

Re: Re: Re: Suspicious…

Do you understand why people were suspicious of the outcome?

There’s a difference between being suspicious of the outcome, and pushing claims that are straight up pulled out MAGA cultists backside..

Like..
Hammer and Scorecard…
The Italian Satellite..
The German Server…
Truckloads of Ballots being driven into PA…
Bamboo Ballots…
Ballots being incinerated in a poultry barn fire..
2000 Mules…
Dominion Machines being rigged by Hugo Chavez
Sharpies invalidating Ballots
More Votes than Voters..
The COVID being created by the deep state specifically to rig the election…

And since I live in CT, Yes Joe Ganim is pretty much a local issue. Bridgeport rivals Mos Eisley as a wretched hive of scum and villany.

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MrWilson (profile) says:

Re:

and what appears to be a weaponization of the judicial system.

Holding people accountable for committing crimes and civil torts isn’t weaponization of the judicial system. I’m sorry you didn’t want your boy to get due processed for his actions.

You can’t always get away with what you want, but if you try sometimes you might just find, you get what you deserve, such as the dissolution of your fraudulent company and a cozy 8 x 10 cell in a federal prison.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

In 2020 with our first ever election during a pandemic with mail in ballots for all and the claim was that nothing like this could ever happen..
Connecticut city’s ‘mishandled ballots’ fuel election skeptics. Experts call problem local, limited

Well, I’m sure you’ll be relieved to know that the issue in CT had no impact on the 2020 election, as it happened in 2023.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

One sec, need to check the notes… ‘Laughed out of literally dozens of courts after those that were so confident in asserting fraud and possession of evidence of it when outside of court were told to show their work while under oath and threat of perjury charges for lying.’

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GodSpawn (profile) says:

Disagree

With respect I must disagree. Four Seasons Total Landscaping have shown us they have much better business acumen than Rudy Giuliani and co.

I think if I asked them to make a pond it’d be the size and depth I asked for. Giuliani would still be digging at the bottom of the Kola Superdeep Borehole.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Even if it was proven to be true, it’s not an excuse to magically free him of all consequences.

I am sick and tired of how “poor mental health” is constantly used as a “get out of consequences” free card when it’s used by the rich and powerful to explain away shitty behavior, while simultaneously used as a justification for “this person needs to be fucking nailed to the wall and socially humiliated” when used by the average citizen.

Samuel Abram (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I am sick and tired of how “poor mental health” is constantly used as a “get out of consequences” free card when it’s used by the rich and powerful to explain away shitty behavior, while simultaneously used as a justification for “this person needs to be fucking nailed to the wall and socially humiliated” when used by the average citizen.

THANK YOU!!! I’m on the the Autistic Disorder Spectrum and am sick and tired of “mental health” being an excuse for shitty behavior from neurotypical people who are mentally stable but morally unstable.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Frankly it’s not even about people on the spectrum. Mental health is shit for people who aren’t on the spectrum, too. And they don’t get to use the “maybe I’m an undiagnosed sperglord” excuse the way Musk and Trump think they do.

What they’re arguing for is not the usage of mental health as an excuse. What they’re arguing for is the usage of their celebrity status as an excuse.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Learned the wrong lesson from the wrong person

I mean I get why he would be so brazen and unapologetic, he probably saw his Dear Leader lying through his teeth and openly flaunting court orders and the law for years with no real consequence and figured, ‘If it works for him why not me?’

Sadly for Giuliani he doesn’t have past and potential political office(not to mention a hoard of violent lunatic supporters just itching to storm another government building) to give him protection in court and keep judges from handing out any real and well-earned penalties for his actions. Such a shame.

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Bloof (profile) says:

All Rudy needed to do after 9\11 was nothing and he would have become a Kissinger-like figure in American politics who gets trotted out as someone who should be listened to by both sides due to their completely undeserved reputation as a statesman. He could have made more money than he could ever have spent and travelled the world, but no, he wanted direct power and had to try to run for the presidency to get it, he showed the world why New Yorkers hated him and got his actions as mayor seen through more critical eyes. It’s been all downhill for him since then as people know what a weasel he is. His last hope for power was to hitch his wagon to the infamously disloyal trump and become his newest attack dog, which was always going to end with him chewed up and spat out, he did the same to Roy Cohn and Michael Cohen, and here he is, suffering the consequences of his actions.

Sucks to be you, Rudy, enjoy your descent into unemployable podcast host status.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

All Rudy needed to do after 9\11 was nothing and he would have become a Kissinger-like figure in American politics who gets trotted out as someone who should be listened to by both sides due to their completely undeserved reputation as a statesman.

To be fair: When Rudy kicks the bucket, he’ll probably be treated like Kissinger was when he died. 🙃

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Obscene

The amount awarded is extreme and obscene. There needs to be fairness in these types of rulings. This is no different than nonsense copyright judgements.
Especially since there’s no evidence they did not intentionally interfere with the election any more than evidence they did.

This is more money then they would have made living a normal life. This goes far beyond any rational fair payment.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

So people should only ever be punished based on how much money another person is expected to make? Like say a homeless guy gets run over by a drunk driver. Say someone like you or davec, who has at best ten years left in the tank, gets shot. Just pay you a pittance based on pension fees, that should be enough?

That’s the hill you’d like to die on today?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Wow, how old do you think I am?

The shooter should pay, not a person who said maybe this person did something that should get them shot.
F someone murdered Trump and cut off their head that Kathy person is not responsible.despite her “calling for people to cut off trumps head”
If someone blew up the weight house you don’t sue Madonna. Despite her explicitly calling for someone to blow up the White House. And that extends to this as well.

And no, millions of dollars for someone ELSE committing criminal acts? No!
The best real world claim here is harassment. You could construe his focus on two people who may or may not have done criminal acts as harassment.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

[If] someone murdered Trump and cut off their head that Kathy person is not responsible[ ]despite her “calling for people to cut off trumps head”

She might not be legally liable, but she damn sure would face a hell of a lot of questions about whether she intended to inspire a murder.

If someone blew up the [White H]ouse you don’t sue Madonna[ d]espite her explicitly calling for someone to blow up the White House.

“You don’t arrest Charles Manson for murder despite his explicit instructions to his ‘family’ about killing people!” That’s you. That’s you right now. Your inability to grasp how responsibility/liability can be shared even if one person doesn’t actually do anything but talk is your problem; you’re the only one who can fix it.

The best real world claim here is harassment.

No, the best real world claims are defamation and harassment⁠—the first of which Giuliani admitted to doing in court documents.

You could construe his focus on two people who may or may not have done criminal acts as harassment.

Two things.

  1. The claims that they did anything illegal in re: ballots and the election have never been proven because no direct evidence of wrongdoing has ever been produced⁠—and as I said, Giuliani admitted his claims were bullshit in court documents.
  2. Oh, now you consider the harassment these two women (and their families!) suffered because a powerful man with a direct connection to the President of the United States turned his immense power on two women who didn’t have (and still won’t have) anywhere near the kind of power he had when he defamed them.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

there’s no evidence they did not intentionally interfere with the election any more than evidence they did

If the claim of “they interfered with the election” couldn’t be proven despite Giuliani and his legal team having years to produce evidence of claims that those dopes conceded were defamatory, I’d argue that the likelihood of such evidence being found is so close to zero that it’s a rounding error.

This is more money then they would have made living a normal life.

Let’s see you live through years of pain and suffering brought on by being worried that you’re going to be killed by a bunch of racist Trumpists who sincerely and wholeheartedly believe⁠—without any evidence to back their belief!⁠—that you interfered in an election. I bet you’d end up agreeing that you need more than a few thousand dollars to compensate you for the damage to your mental and physical health that such constant harassment would do to you. Then again, I should expect this level of apathy towards the pain of other people from someone who is a self-admitted narcissist that only cares about his own self-interests to the detriment of the rest of society.

Of all the things I could wish for this Christmas, Lodos, I wish you had a heart.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Of all the things I could wish for this Christmas, Lodos, I wish you had a heart.

He does, just not for the people you’d agree with. Or for that matter, not for the people that most decent people would agree with. Who else is going to carry water for those poor embarrassed billionaires politicians?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I bitch about unfair judgements. Be it millions for a $4.99 dvd shared online to one person, or charging a person for not actually doing anything.

Millions of dollars for a person with a current expendable worth (we’re skipping you lack of understanding of applied vs actual value, or monetary policy in general, get over it), of just a few thousand dollars is not a mild inconvenience, for doing nothing to the person being paid.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

doing nothing to the person being paid

Rudy Giuliani defamed two women who were otherwise unknown to the public. Thanks to his defamation, those two women became public figures against their will and were targeted for harassment and threats by supporters of Giuliani’s boss, Donald Trump. Even if you want to argue that the harassment and threats were entirely the actions of the people who carried out that bullshit, they were inspired by Giuliani’s defamation to do what they did. Giuliani has to share liability⁠—and therefore responsibility⁠—for what was done to the lives of those two women because he defamed them. I get that you don’t believe in shared liability just like you don’t believe in subtext and stochastic terrorism, but your inability to believe in those concepts doesn’t mean other people have to ignore them so you can keep living in a fantasy world where responsibility is as simple and limited as “they pulled the trigger” even if someone else gave the shooter a gun, told the shooter “that person is evil”, and did nothing to prevent that trigger from being pulled.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re:

You can build a nuke proof house for $5 million. Aren’t you the one that hates the “filthy rich”? Because these two people just joined that group.

I highly doubt anyone would notice who they are if they simply moved, an extra $5 million would allow that as well. Having a heart doesn’t necessitate grand theft. And that is exactly what this ruling is.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Aren’t you the one that hates the “filthy rich”?

Two things.

  1. Yes, I have little love for the obscenely wealthy.
  2. The chances of those two women ever seeing anything close to the full amount granted to them in the judgment is slim at best⁠—not just because Rudy himself is fucked financially, but because appeals are likely to shrink the amount by a significant margin.

I highly doubt anyone would notice who they are if they simply moved

The people who were harassed by Sandy Hook truthers in the wake of Alex Jones’s bullshit had to live in hiding for years to avoid being harassed. Their children were murdered in an elementary school by Some Asshole, and they had to live in hiding because a bunch of other assholes were convinced by an even bigger asshole that those parents (and their children) were “crisis actors” for a staged school shooting. Imagine being unable to grieve, unable to mourn, unable to go about your life in anything resembling “normalcy” because you’re too busy looking over your shoulder for someone who might hurt you.

(I know that trying to imagine yourself in someone else’s shoes is a challenge for you, Lodos, but at least make the attempt.)

Something similar happened in this case: Two women who, by all accounts and all available evidence, did nothing wrong had their lives turned upside-down via harassment and death threats carried out by assholes who believed Rudy Giuliani’s lies about those women. If you have any compassion for the victims of Alex Jones’s bullshit, you should be able to find some of that compassion for these women. And if you can’t…well, like I said: I wish you had a heart.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Talk about jumping to assumptions.

My belief is quite clear and far from corporate. My record of support for socialised capitalism is well documented.
I just don’t believe in the progressive pushed tax plans. The never work in reality. Every time you raise a company’s costs, they raise prices. Period. Fact.
Every plan to tax (fictitious) “stored” wealth would decimate the majority of the country’s families.
One need only look at nearly every major city (nearly completely Dem controlled) to see the policies don’t work.

The republicans aren’t right either. But they tend to be less destructive to 90% of the population in the last 50 years.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The republicans aren’t right either. But they tend to be less destructive to 90% of the population in the last 50 years.

“Red states”, on average, tend to be poorer and less educated than their “blue” counterparts. “Red states” also take in more federal monies than they give, as opposed to their “blue” counterparts. And “red states” are also more likely to gerrymander voting districts to dilute the voting power of liberals/progressives, ban books from schools and libraries for even the slightest offense to a conservative parent’s sensibilities, ban abortions (and therefore force women to fight for their bodily autonomy in court), fight against LGBTQ civil rights, and attempt to enforce a Christian theocracy upon citizens. And that doesn’t even get into GOP support for Donald Trump (and his attempt to subvert American democracy by trying to overturn or prevent the certification of a free and fair election).

But sure, tell me again how Republicans are “less destructive” to the United States. I’m sure I’ll believe you the second time you say it~.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

My belief is quite clear and far from corporate. My record of support for socialised capitalism is well documented.

I find what people purport to support is usually irrelevant. I can imagine any number of political systems and say I support those no matter how unlikely they are to be realized. What matters is what you actually fight for and vote for and put effort into.

You claimed all corporations should have total control of any code they generate, even if that code involves user data and runs on user devices. That necessarily means that you support corporate ownership of user possessions, like they’re virtual landlords who can dictate how others live. That’s not freedom or equality. That’s corporate hegemony.

You can say whatever you like, but when you contradict your supposed ideals, you’re not getting credit for your ideals. You’ll be judged by the worst things you support.

I just don’t believe in the progressive pushed tax plans. The never work in reality.

Not only is this a non sequitur, but it also seems to contradict your supposed support for socialized capitalism.

Every time you raise a company’s costs, they raise prices. Period. Fact. Every plan to tax (fictitious) “stored” wealth would decimate the majority of the country’s families.

How do other developed countries with better social programs make it work?

One need only look at nearly every major city (nearly completely Dem controlled) to see the policies don’t work.

This is a common disingenuous conservative talking point, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and just guess you’re ignorantly making the mistake of confusing correlation with causation. Large urban areas tend to vote democratic and large urban areas tend to have problems that rural areas don’t. It would be absurd to suggest that the problems must be because of the democrats in office rather than in spite of who is in office. The problems exist in other countries where they don’t have democrats in office.

https://xkcd.com/1138/

The republicans aren’t right either. But they tend to be less destructive to 90% of the population in the last 50 years.

Holy shit! Stephen already covered this, but this statement is absurd on its face.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Yes, yes, you’re unable to grasp the idea of financial utility and think taking $3,500 from someone who makes $35k a year is as fair as taking $3,500,000 from someone who makes $35,000,000 a year only because the percentage is the same. Do you believe Elon Musk’s wealth is going to trickle down to some homeless dude in Toledo, too?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

I don’t believe in trickle down.

You believe in a flat tax and you’re a Trumpist, so you may as well believe in other conservative bullshit about economics.

If everyone was already granted a base income at the living rate then yes, it’s fair.

And yet, we don’t have UBI or anything like it, so your hypothetical is bullshit until that little matter is cleared up.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I voted for a secure border, for reduced international spending, for fair trade, and for increased defence domestically.

I voted against those that would implement the forced raising of the bottom 10% on the backs of the 80% while the top 10% controls everything.
I voted against people with a historical record of excessive broad censorship.
I voted against failed, and guaranteed to fail, progressive policies.

I’m a literal libertarian, I despise progressivism. I support a capitalist economy on the back of socialism, not single point of control communism.

I voted for and worked on the campaigns of Obama. Before he turned his back on liberal ideals and became a pay-me progressive. I voted for Perot too.

Neither the democrats, whose top ranks are progressives, nor the republicans, whose top leaders are uber rich, will ever give us social security for all and a social base. As such, I will continue to vote for the party candidate that most likely will proceed with issues I care about more than the other. And less likely to disrupt my life and that of my family and friends.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I will continue to vote for the party candidate that most likely will proceed with issues I care about more than the other. And less likely to disrupt my life and that of my family and friend

And you think Trump’s the one who’s going to do it, based on his track record with the Mexican border wall and investigating Hilary? Oh right – when the failure for both of those was pointed out your immediate response was that he was joking both times.

Guy, you couldn’t vote for your interests if they smacked you in the face and laid a chestburster in your stomach.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

based on his track record with the Mexican border wall

Which he did start building after the obstructionism was passed. And would have been finished in a second term. Compare that to Biden who first sold off wall materials for pennies on the dollar, then purchased more materials to continue building the wall.

investigating Hilary

Was a lost cause. She always let others do the less then legal actions. I simply hate her guts.

your immediate response was that he was joking

You have me confused with someone else. Mexico did pay for the wall with the modified trade policy. Rational people never expected there to be direct funding from a foreign country.

What he did do, and i voted for, was build border defences, reduce international expenditures, end the war in Afghanistan (which Biden couldn’t competently carry out), and modify trade agreements. He pulled out of the Paris accords, he blocked the Iran bounty payment.
He did not tax nonexistent value in investments, he did not send money to foreign conflicts.

And as a bonus, Brokered a peace treaty in the Middle East that made travel and existence much easier not just for them, but for us as well.

Sounds like he accomplished far more in his for years for my family and friends than Biden has managed since he took office. I can’t think of a single thing Biden has done that benefits myself, my family, or my friends. Anyone in my existence. In fact, being just above the poverty level, he has drained my savings through his ridiculous policies that have made life more expensive for the bottom 10% than since the Great Depression.

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Kinetic Gothic says:

Re: Re: Re:13

voted against people with a historical record of excessive broad censorship

Apparently you missed that Trump is a censorious asshole, as his “I’m going to open up the libel laws” campaign promise should have tipped you off to. And that’s jsut Trump, not the social conservatives he was selling himself to. And they have a far longer track record and wider history of excessive censorship than the political left.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

even if that code involves user data and runs on user devices

No, I didn’t. An api that accesses user code is not the same as using user code. The creator has the right to their creation. The government has no right to demand other entities, that were incapable of coming up with their own code, use someone else’s.

support for socialized capitalism.

The most direct and effective method of implementing a social base is SS for all. Provided for by a a flat tax that treats all income over the SS payment as income and taxes all such overage the same.

How do other developed countries with better social programs make it work

Vat. A flat tax. That everyone pays equally. Eastern Europe and Asia have shown that low income taxes, and reasonable VAT rates, work far better than our non-socialised system.

It would be absurd to suggest that the problems

The problem is called the tax feedback loop.
You raise the taxes to create money for social problems. That raises the cost of business, thus raising the cost of food equally. A net zero. Raising taxes is the progressive mindset. But there’s no reasoning in the doing.
Raise taxes, costs go up. Business’s charge more. Income can’t support the higher charge. Increase social spending via taxes….

The solution is to cut spending in other countries and use the savings, nearly a trillion spent, to fund SS for all. Federal healthcare.
We could put fibre to the door of every U.S. citizen for 1/7th the money we spent in Ukraine.
We could fund healthcare for years with the money we dumped into that regime over the last year.

Taxes alone and arbitrarily applied won’t solve anything.

statement is absurd on its face

The progressive movement started with Carter.
The progressive movement allows the top 10% to disrupt the lives of the 90% to raise the bottom 10%.
Progressive policy IS communism-in-practice.
The government takes complete control. Those in power are outside the effects. The vast majority suffers for the bottom 10%.
There are better ways for bringing up the bottom. Like giving everyone an equal footing.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I wish you had a heart.

Mine may not bleed for every minimal gotcha on the planet.
But yours stops beating the moment it’s someone you disagree with.

There is no logical reason for this filthy obscene payout.
No, o don’t believe in punitive increases. There’s no fairness in that.

The law must be fair. Or did you forget he didn’t say ‘go harass and threaten’.
Anyone who does anything to these women is fully and completely responsible for their own actions.
And you totally miss my point with your sand hook reply!
Move away from the spot you are at and the majority of people will never know who you are if you put your name and former address on paper.

Honestly, I’m not sure without looking it up where sandy hook is. Let alone what any of those people looked like.
Nor would I ever pick these two out of a crowd. That’s the reality for the majority of people.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Mine may not bleed for every minimal gotcha on the planet.

Neither does mine.

But yours stops beating the moment it’s someone you disagree with.

Why should I feel anything resembling sympathy for a serial liar and fascist sympathizer like Rudy Giuliani or the people who harassed those two election workers?

There is no logical reason for this filthy obscene payout.

It’s called “sending a message”.

The law must be fair. Or did you forget he didn’t say ‘go harass and threaten’.

Whether he directed people to harass those election workers is irrelevant. He’s the one who made a point of lying about those election workers on multiple occasions in front of microphones and video cameras. He admitted in court documents that the things he said were defamatory. Every right has a responsibility, and the right of free speech carries with it the responsibility to avoid using one’s speech to harm others. Giuliani’s repeated and defamatory lies led people to harass and threaten two election workers; he deserves to be held responsible for using his right to speak in such an irresponsible and dangerous way.

Anyone who does anything to these women is fully and completely responsible for their own actions.

And they could argue in court⁠—reasonably, if not convincingly⁠—that but for the defamatory statements of Rudy Giuliani (not to mention all the “Stop the Steal” rhetoric from Trump and his associates), they wouldn’t have even known those two women existed and thus wouldn’t have felt the need to harass and threaten them.

And you totally miss my point with your sand hook reply!

No, I don’t. You miss the point that the harassment these women faced because of a powerful right-wing media figure lying about them is similar to the harassment those Sandy Hook families faced because of a powerful right-wing media figure lying about those families and their dead children. That kind of harassment upends lives and turns any attempt at living “normally” into a constant game of “is this the day I die because some asshole decided to kill me when I stepped outside today” that leaves people paralyzed with fear. And the harassment doesn’t end when people move towns⁠—the assholes dedicate actual time and effort into tracking their targets and their every move as best as possible.

I know it’s nigh impossible for you to imagine living any kind of life other than your own, Lodos, but for once in your selfish-ass life, try to do that here. Seriously try to imagine the kind of paranoia you’d feel if a small, dedicated, and deranged group of people tracked your every move and stalked you wherever you chose to go. Imagine never being able to post anything on social media or communicate with friends or even go out in public out of the fear that one of your harassers is waiting to pounce⁠—maybe violently, maybe not, but you can’t ever know which one with the certainty of God. Imagine having to upend your life⁠—moving away from your friends and family, quitting your job, maybe even changing your legal identity⁠—because some right-wing asshole with lots of money and a sizeable audience told such horrific lies about you that people felt compelled to stalk and harass and threaten and harm you.

That is why the courts awarded those two women that much money, of which they’ll likely never even see half: No person should have to live like that because someone with power and privilege told defamatory lies about that person.

Grow a fucking heart, you selfish Trumpist bastard.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You give the small group of extreme right wing nutz too much credit. Go to a Trump rally and fined 2 people that even know the names of these women. Let alone that can identify them.

a simple move is all the more to end this episode for them.

I’m also not fearful of what happens tomorrow. We are all going to die. When the time comes it comes. When you live your life in fear you let the enemy win. So no, I can’t fathom living life worried about it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You give the small group of extreme right wing nutz too much credit.

You give the dedicated and deranged too little credit.

a simple move is all the more to end this episode for them.

And when those dedicated to “bringing justice” to two women who “interfered” with an election track them down, what then⁠—more moves? More abandoning a life to live on the run? THINK, YOU FUCKING MORON, THINK.

I’m also not fearful of what happens tomorrow.

Yes, yes, we’re all aware that you can’t fathom what it’s like to live in someone else’s shoes for even a second. You got anything new, Trumpist?

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

There is no logical reason for this filthy obscene payout.
No, o don’t believe in punitive increases. There’s no fairness in that.

There’s fairness in a wealthy, famous person using all their influence and reach to lie about a person to the point that supporters of the wealthy, famous person stalk them, dox them, threaten to murder them, etc.?

The law must be fair. Or did you forget he didn’t say ‘go harass and threaten’.

Stochastic terrorism and mob tactics are thing. “I didn’t technically tell them to do something” doesn’t get you off the hook for defamation that leads to harassment. The original act led to the harassment.

Anyone who does anything to these women is fully and completely responsible for their own actions.

Yes, and the person who provided them with a target via lies and defamation is fully and completely responsible for providing them with a target. You’re pretending the harassment is the only nefarious act here.

And you totally miss my point with your sand hook reply!
Move away from the spot you are at and the majority of people will never know who you are if you put your name and former address on paper.

You don’t understand how public records work.

Honestly, I’m not sure without looking it up where sandy hook is. Let alone what any of those people looked like.
Nor would I ever pick these two out of a crowd. That’s the reality for the majority of people.

Except there are people who do have that information, who seek that information, who post that information on forums for others to utilize. Your ignorance of what motivated conspiracy theorists will do doesn’t mean they don’t exist or don’t do all the things you can’t imagine.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I believe a person is responsible for their own actions. Nobody, including the defendant, has forced anyone to target these women. This that so are responsible for their actions alone.

Lodos doesn’t believe in concepts

I don’t believe in passing off responsibility to someone else. You alone are responsible for your own actions.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I believe a person is responsible for their own actions.

NOBODY WOULD’VE KNOWN WHO THOSE WOMEN WERE IF NOT FOR RUDY GIULIANI’S DEFAMATORY LIES. Even if he didn’t know those women were going to be harassed like they were, he had to know that he was using his power and privilege as one of Trump’s groveling henchment to shine the spotlight of the presidency onto two otherwise-unknown women who didn’t do anything wrong and turn them into public figures who were supposed enemies of Donald Trump. That’s the problem with your narrow-sighted view of responsibility here, you idiot: He is as much to blame for putting those women in the crosshairs of a bunch of angry (and potentially violent) assholes as those assholes are for harassing and threatening them. He deserves to be held accountable and responsible for upending their lives without any actual evidence of the actions he accused them of committing regardless of whether he explicitly ordered anyone to harass or threaten them.

And yes, I know that you don’t believe in the concept of stochastic terrorism (and the underlying concepts of context and subtext). Guess what? I. Don’t. Fucking. Care. You’re not going to convince me that Giuliani isn’t responsible for what happened to those women by saying “well, he never said ‘go hunt these women like dogs’ ”, so don’t even fucking bother with that bullshit any more. Every attempt you make to sell it only makes it smell that much worse.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

for a man that said what he believed, that even after he came to realise his error he still said it…

You are giving him far too much benefit of the doubt here. There’s no evidence to believe he actually believed what he claimed, but even if he did, it speaks to his idiocy rather than his innocence. He, like Trump and a large number of Trump supporters, spewed claims without sufficient evidence or an understanding of how elections even worked. They grasped at any claim they could make, repeating any claim they heard from others, even in the midst of aides and advisors and lawyers and courts telling them they were wrong.

But the worst thing about your perspective is that it does not matter if he believed it or not! He is still liable for making defamatory statements regardless of what he believed. Defamation involves statements of (false) fact, not opinion or belief. Whether he thought the claims were true isn’t a defense. He said it was true.

I still can’t see how such a large amount of money is fair.

You can’t see it because you clearly don’t comprehend what happened. You lack empathy, so you’re ignoring the lived experience of the victims. Again, your ignorance and lack of imagination doesn’t mitigate the reality of the situation.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I believe a person is responsible for their own actions. Nobody, including the defendant, has forced anyone to target these women. This that so are responsible for their actions alone.

Not only does this perspective ignore existing legal precedent, but it pretends that no one has the ability to contribute to liability.

If I handed a loaded gun to a kid and told the kid that you murdered his mother, but never technically told him to shoot you, I would still be responsible for him shooting you. My actions would have made it possible and led him down that path. By your logic, I would have done nothing wrong. It’s all on the kid. You have a sociopath’s sense of responsibility.

I don’t believe in passing off responsibility to someone else. You alone are responsible for your own actions.

Responsibility isn’t a mutually exclusive concept where it’s only possible for one person to wield liability. Actions aren’t always singular events, but can be a series of events will multiple participants.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Responsibility isn’t a mutually exclusive concept where it’s only possible for one person to wield liability. Actions aren’t always singular events, but can be a series of events will multiple participants.

I keep trying to explain this to him in the context of the insurrection, but he keeps refusing to accept that conclusion.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

no one has the ability to contribute to liability.

That’s the mentality that holds a person responsible for it stoping to help, AND holds a person responsible when they stop to help but aren’t qualified to stop in the first place. Nobody is responsible for my actions except myself. You may like passing blame to some degree to others, I refuse to do that.

you, I would still be responsible for him shooting you

Removing kid; as a parent is responsible for their child until the age of majority in that state.

No, you wouldn’t. Barbaric law that makes people less responsible for their actions would hold you partly responsible, but you did not in any way, shape, or form cause the person to fire. They did that themselves. You are not responsible in reality even if the law would hold you responsible.
No, assuming I survive, I would sue the kid and his parents would be responsible. I would not pursue you at all.
You are responsible to the state for handing a loaded weapon to a kid, in violation of multiple laws. But not to me.

Responsibility isn’t a mutually exclusive concept

In reality it is, even if legal ideas say otherwise.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Nobody is responsible for my actions except myself. You may like passing blame to some degree to others, I refuse to do that.

It’s not passing blame, but recognizing contributing factors that result from the actions of others. You can be responsible for your actions and someone else can also be responsible for contributing to the circumstances that led you to take those actions. There are multiple crimes possible in law and multiple negative acts in moral philosophy. No man is an island. No decision is made in isolation with no context.

Sure, you can assert whatever you want to believe, but it won’t make much sense to many other people. It’s an oversimplified view, as Stephen has pointed out. You’re intentionally ignoring other factors because you don’t want to have to think too hard. Fortunately, you’re not deciding cases in a court of law.

Removing kid; as a parent is responsible for their child until the age of majority in that state.

I didn’t say the kid was mine in the hypothetical scenario. How would a parent be responsible if the kid were an orphan?

Or if the kid had a parent, how would the parent be responsible if by your own assertion people are responsible for their own actions only. If the parent didn’t take any action, they wouldn’t be responsible. Your own logic contradicts itself.

No, you wouldn’t. Barbaric law that makes people less responsible for their actions would hold you partly responsible, but you did not in any way, shape, or form cause the person to fire. They did that themselves. You are not responsible in reality even if the law would hold you responsible.

Yes, I would. Using a proxy to cause your death still garners someone responsibility, both legally and morally. Otherwise, you’d be excusing a host of sociopaths using proxies to do all their dirty work.

Responsibility isn’t a mutually exclusive concept

In reality it is, even if legal ideas say otherwise.

No, in reality it isn’t. If it’s mutually exclusive, then you’d have to claim that conspiring to commit murder or paying someone else to murder someone is morally fine. “I didn’t kill him. I just paid someone to kill him.”

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Except there are people who do have that information, who seek that information, who post that information on forums for others to utilize

It’s called harassment, and stalking. You punish the people who do the act.

I still see no reason for creating two instant millionaires for doing nothing but being named by a media personality.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I still see no reason for creating two instant millionaires for doing nothing but being named by a media personality.

Hey, so, if you’re going to talk about what happened in this case in the most generic and anodyne terms to make what happened sound like less of a crime/heinous act, I’m here to give your ass a reality check.

A man with immense power and privilege, granted to him partly because of his past as a politician and partly because of his association with the then-sitting President of the United States, used that power and privilege to openly (and now admittedly!) lie about two otherwise unknown women, paint them as enemies of that then-sitting POTUS, and turn them into national public figures overnight. That man knew, or at least had to have a reasonable belief, that what he planned to do to those two women would result in supporters of that then-sitting POTUS taking matters into their own hands by (at a bare minimum) harassing those women into silence (or worse). He knew he was going to lie, he lied, and he didn’t stop lying even after he was sued for defamation. The women whom he targeted⁠—and whom he made targets of⁠—had their lives upended by a wave of harassment and threats laced with racist rhetoric that was launched by supporters of that then-sitting POTUS, none of which likely ever would have happened if that powerful and privileged man had decided not to lie about those women.

But sure, some dude said some things about some women⁠—that’s all this situation is to you, isn’t it? Someone leveraging power and privilege to turn two innocent people into targets for a bunch of hateful assholes by lying about them is just “being named by a media personality”, huh?

Christ, your selfishness, narrow-sightedness, and inability to sympathize with anyone who isn’t a right-wing asshole make me sick.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I still see no reason for creating two instant millionaires for doing nothing but being named by a media personality.

Framing what happened as nothing more than ‘being named by a media personality’ is like describing the catholic church’s attempt to dodge prosecutions by moving child molesters between churches as ‘reshuffling church employees into other opportunities’; both are technically true while heavily downplaying the actually important part.

Just out of morbid curiosity and to check for consistency if a ‘media personality’ went on national television and accused you multiple times over the course of months if not years of some heinous crime(let’s say child molestation to continue with the above comparison), should they face any penalty for that? What about if people that otherwise never would have known you existed heard those accusations and made your life hell because of it, forcing you to move out of the state(which is of course cheap and easy) and constantly keep your head down and identity as hidden as possible lest you be discovered again, would the person who gave them your name, without which they never would have done anything to you be at all responsible for any of that?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Responsible? Yes. Over a million dollars? No.
There was a trial. The women were cleared.
There would be a trial, I would be cleared.
I’d then move if I was still harassed. After filing civil and criminal charges against any illegal activity taken against me.

And talk about those goal posts. A charge that riled up a few hundred or thousand people, vs one the 99% are violently against.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Your inability to grasp the nuance of the power dynamics between Giuliani and the two women he victimized speaks to a broader issue with you: the need for a lack of nuance in your life. You described this whole situation as “being named by a media personality”, but you never once talk about the nuances of the situation because you know it’ll wreck your argument about the unfairness of the damages verdict (and open the door for situations like Alex Jones and the Sandy Hook families to be brought up). You keep harping on about a flat tax so you don’t have to think about how taking the same percentage of money from everyone’s bank account will hit a lot of people differently based on exactly how much income they make and how the utility role that yoinked money would play in someone’s life differs depending on their level of income. You keep ignoring the subtext and context of the speeches before the insurrection⁠—including everything that Trump had said before the day of the insurrection about the election⁠—so you can act like everyone that day was acting wholly on their own without no one ever having planted the idea of stopping the election by any means necessary.

You want it simple because thinking about nuance might lead you to think that maybe your votes for Donald Trump emboldened someone who wants to shred the Constitution save for the parts that give him power. You want it easy because thinking about the complexities might lead you to realize that Rudy Giuliani leveraged his power to ruin two people’s lives because he wanted to help steal an election. You want it surface-level because thinking past the surface might lead you to the knowledge that yes, subtext in political speech is a thing and you’ve been ignoring it because you agree with Donald Trump on everything from his racist beliefs about immigrants to his desire to be a dictator during his second term.

But sure, keep talking about how this is all just a dude sayin’ things about a couple of ladies. See how far that bullshit argument gets you with people who aren’t Trumpian idiots.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I say media personality because I don’t recall whatever roll he played in the cabinet or presidency. If you prefer, we can call him a political hack?

No, I don’t blame Alex Jones for the actions of others. I don’t blame BLM for the actions a handful took in causing hundreds of millions in damages. I don’t blame Trump for the actions of a few dozen idiots, especially when he, like BLM leaders, said to remain peaceful.

will hit a lot of people differently based on exactly how much income they make

Because implementing a flat tax with a social system would not change the dynamics. the bottom doesn’t pay taxes today and wouldn’t on any presented flat tax proposal ever presented in this country.
Instead they would reap the benefits or greater social services.
A family making 50k would pay 5000. Roughly what they pay today. A family making 500k would pay 50k, far more than they do today.
Your claims about the poor are fictional in every proposal ever brought to the congressional floor. As far as I’m aware, (you can sight a reliable source if I’m wrong) nobody has ever discussed under 25k. And right now the federal bracket of 10% kicks in at 2000 and 12% at 11k.
So explain to me how lowering the tax for the poor when not outright eliminating it completely makes them worse?

insurrection

Telling you’re one of the 1% of the population that is using that term. There was no insurrection. There was a small group of violent criminals that used the cover of a peaceful protest to carry out criminal acts.
If you want to play with subtext and technicalities, insurrection is the overthrow of the ruling. They didn’t technically attempt to do that. They attempted to delay, or stop, the process that would eventually have placed Biden in power.
Calling it insurrection is flat out false.
Not that that’s out of the way: I return to nobody committed any act that day by any means other than their own.
Unlike you, I don’t criminalise ideas or mentalities. You can think, and act, however you want. When you break the law you alone are responsible for doing so.

everything from his racist beliefs about immigrants to his desire to be a dictator during his second term.

If believing that the only way to enter the country should be a legal point of entry makes me a racist, you’ve twisted that word to zero meaning. Most countries refuse to tolerate illegal trespass. Immigration is a legal concept. It requires entering legally. If you don’t enter legally you’re a criminal. That’s not racism, that’s legal fact in the vast majority of the world. Dictators don’t walk out the door either. He left when Biden was sworn in. He had a duty and right to challenge the result la, verify the procedure.
Go back and look at my commentary around the web during the hanging chad period. Where I always sad let the process play out no matter how idiotic it is.

Personally, I’d put an end to all of this by making vote counting video recorded live broadcast public record. Especially with how many locations violated state and federal law by not having poll watches close enough to see the names on the ballots and the votes as cast. (Fuck the covid excuse, if you are unwilling to do your job properly then relinquish the position to someone who will).

And yes, that’s exactly what happened. Some dude said some bad things about two women. Things proven in court to be untrue.
The only people responsible for any actions taken regarding them is the people who took those actions.

To make this clear, if someone yells fire in a theatre I’m in, I will stand up, look around. If I don’t see fire, don’t smell fire, I will sit back down and finish the show. If I am injured in any ensuing panic I will sue the person who injured me. They can abuse the law to recover their judgement from the fire caller if they wish.
If a drunk driver causes a car to swerve and hit me, I sue the driver that hit me. They can sue the drunk driver.
If someone says something and someone else assaults me for it, I sue the assailant, not the speaker.
Don’t sue a restaurant for serving me a proper temperature 98-99• coffee when I spill it of my own stupidity.

That’s fairness in practice.

Stop trying to exonerate people of responsibility for actions they took.
If I suggested you to jump off a cliff and you did, you made the decision yourself.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Because implementing a flat tax with a social system would not change the dynamics. the bottom doesn’t pay taxes today and wouldn’t on any presented flat tax proposal ever presented in this country.

This is demonstrably false. A few minutes googling “US Congress flat tax” will find several proposals and academic articles and news reports regarding flat tax proposals that don’t suggest the poor would pay nothing. And the bottom does pay taxes today, just not income taxes (at least after tax returns). The poor still pay sales taxes and by proxy pay property taxes through rent and any number of other taxes disproportionate to their income.

It’s also an oxymoron to call it a flat tax if a tier of people is excluded from it. 0% for some and 10% for others isn’t flat.

A family making 50k would pay 5000. Roughly what they pay today. A family making 500k would pay 50k, far more than they do today.

A wealthy person who has no income wouldn’t pay such a tax.

Instead they would reap the benefits or greater social services.

Do you not know anything about the people who propose flat taxes? It’s conservatives and right wing libertarians who oppose social services. You wouldn’t get both.

As far as I’m aware, (you can sight a reliable source if I’m wrong) nobody has ever discussed under 25k.

Just one example: https://www.congress.gov/bill/98th-congress/senate-bill/3033

Telling you’re one of the 1% of the population that is using that term.

That you think only 1% of the population is using that term just shows how out of touch you are.

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/news/2022/06/23/jan-6-poll-trump-insurrection-capitol

There was no insurrection. There was a small group of violent criminals that used the cover of a peaceful protest to carry out criminal acts.

…to interrupt Congress to prevent a peaceful transfer of power and therefore overthrow the government. You just said insurrection with extra words.

You can think, and act, however you want. When you break the law you alone are responsible for doing so.

And causing others to participate in an insurrection is breaking the law!

If believing that the only way to enter the country should be a legal point of entry makes me a racist, you’ve twisted that word to zero meaning.

You just minimized a whole bunch of actual racism down to a concern about legal immigration. This can only be attributable to intentional dishonesty or ignorance that makes your perspective useless.

He had a duty and right to challenge the result la, verify the procedure.

Actually, he didn’t. Feel free to find me where the Constitution empowers the president to oversee elections:

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-2/section-1/

But that’s also beside the point because he didn’t just “challenge” the election results. He ignored when he was told there wasn’t any fraud from both his own lawyers and advisors and from the courts. He exhausted his options and then proceeded to encourage others to storm the capitol building.

Personally, I’d put an end to all of this by making vote counting video recorded live broadcast public record.

We had video of the vote counting and Trump supporters misconstrued what happened to the point of defaming election workers. Why do you think having video would make it all magically free from election interference by bad actors who lie about what’s happening?

And yes, that’s exactly what happened. Some dude said some bad things about two women. Things proven in court to be untrue. The only people responsible for any actions taken regarding them is the people who took those actions.

The dude who said those bad things took action against those women by saying the bad things. That’s why he’s responsible for the civil penalty.

Stop trying to exonerate people of responsibility for actions they took.

This is where you’re ignoring the fact that responsibility isn’t diminished just because it can be shared. You can be responsible for defamation and someone else can be responsible for harassment based on your defamation. Blaming you for influencing the harasser doesn’t diminish their responsibility. Again, responsibility is not mutually exclusive.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Ok, you went back much further than I did. And I’ll grant you your win there.

And the bottom does pay taxes today

Not to the federal government.

It’s also an oxymoron

It’s disingenuous to call a starting point disingenuous. Especially when the starting point has generally been above the “poverty line”.

A wealthy person who has no income wouldn’t pay such a tax

As soon as volatile investment becomes exchangeable money it becomes taxable income. It’s fictional nonsense to say stored value. And it would be (should be) criminal to tax something of no exchangeable monetary value.

It’s conservatives and right wing libertarians who oppose social services

Not alone. You may want to look into my stated support for the financial policies of Cortez. She may be one of those delusional end of the world greenies but her financial policies are quite good.

you can sight a reliable source if I’m wrong

😑 congratulations, you found one 40 years ago. You win.

just shows how out of touch you are

The MBS places them in the solid left side, and based on 25 reviews all sides places them tentatively in leans left. Non-propaganda news has stood using the term (eg NYT, WSJ, CST, CNN).
Your piece doesn’t make the point you think it does. To start: the national polling numbers put those that think 6th was a pre-planned attack is closer to 80% with most polls in the mid to upper 70s. Most also believe that it was independent of anything else that occurred that day.
Second, the people simply replied to the poll as stated here, the newspaper, not the people, chose the inaccurate term “insurrection”.
Most reputable news outlets have stopped using the term because it is factually wrong and legally problematic. Most democrats have backed away from the term. For that same reason.

prevent a peaceful transfer of power…

There was no scheduled transfer that day. Therefore the assailants were not stopping a transfer, nor overthrowing the government they were stopping, or delaying, the process that would eventually lead to the future transfer of power.
That’s why the highest crime being charged was disruption of official government business.

I’m with you on calling out the few criminals that broke the law that day. The less than one percent in a group of thousands of peaceful protestors that used the protest as cover for criminal acts. I’d go so far as to say those few were actually intended insurrections, though they were incapable of carrying out any form of insurrection that day.

And causing others to participate in an insurrection is breaking the law

Yes, and to claim that show me one person forced by any member of the Trump government that forced anyone to attempt insurrection. A fun. A threat of force. A threat of jail. A threat to family. Any force involved.

This can only be attributable to intentional dishonesty or ignorance that makes your perspective useless

I stated my belief. I was called a racist. I corrected that false belief. I believe in legal immigration. And like most countries, if you’re not legal you are quickly, if not immediately, expelled. It has nothing to do with race (for me). I don’t care the colour of your skin, the country you came from. Go through the process. If you do not, you are a criminal; and criminals in violation of our law should not be granted admission.

He exhausted his options and then proceeded to encourage others to storm the capitol building.

“Peacefully”

We can argue about others who used more inflammatory language, but unlike you I blame the actor alone. Then again, I don’t run and cry to momma or the moderator when someone called me a bad word. Those few that actually broke the law did so of their own will alone.

Why do you think having video would make it all magically free from election interference by bad actors who lie about what’s happening?

Because live video feed would eliminate gaps. I don’t have a clue what happened in Georgia. And don’t care, personally. If the entire state votes for Trump the results wouldn’t be different. What happened in Pennsylvania can never be allowed to happen again. Poll watchers could not do their prescribed jobs of verification. Counts there and in Texas happened after poll watchers were sent away. Postal submissions were backdated.
There was not enough fraud to change the results. But there was fraud. More than any previous recent election. And an extensive lot of less than reputable occurrences. The democrats ignore that because their candidate won. The republicans make it a joke by claiming it was stolen. The fact was our election system was misused and abused by both intentional acts and idiocy.
Just like I believe in 24/7 always on body cam feeds I believe every aspect of each election should be live feed streamed.

Again, responsibility is not mutually exclusive.

We’ll never agree on this. I have never sought to blame anyone other than myself for my mistakes. Even when I was misinformed, I should have done better research.
I don’t believe in transferring culpability to others’ words.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

And the bottom does pay taxes today

Not to the federal government.

Oh, sorry. Close, but the answer we were looking for was “payroll tax.” Poor people are often subject to payroll taxes to the federal government.

It’s disingenuous to call a starting point disingenuous. Especially when the starting point has generally been above the “poverty line”.

It’s not disingenuous to call out a proposal that is supported by people who will honestly admit that they do want poor people to pay more taxes.

As soon as volatile investment becomes exchangeable money it becomes taxable income. It’s fictional nonsense to say stored value. And it would be (should be) criminal to tax something of no exchangeable monetary value.

Except all a wealthy person has to do is borrow money against their assets and not pay it off until they die. Flat taxes are often proposed with the intent to eliminate death and estate taxes.

Not alone. You may want to look into my stated support for the financial policies of Cortez. She may be one of those delusional end of the world greenies but her financial policies are quite good.

Her last name is Ocasio-Cortez. If you support her financial policies, then you would oppose a flat tax. She doesn’t propose a flat tax.

“The Left also has a powerfully simple moral retort to the Right’s bogus “theft” claim: an additional dollar is more valuable to a poor person than to a rich person. Instantly understandable, this claim is also borne out by research. Money tends to “buy happiness,” but only up to a point. Bill Gates and his ilk probably wouldn’t notice if their bank accounts were $10,000 lighter, but most Americans sure would (especially since they’re not likely to even have that much in savings). The difference between being able to buy another yacht and being able to afford health insurance is a clear one, and we should insist that a vote for higher taxes on the rich is a vote for fewer yachts and more saved lives. This is how you make the already shaky appeal of Republican “flat tax” proposals and the Right’s regressive tax philosophy crumble.”

https://jacobin.com/2019/01/ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-redistribution-wealth

congratulations, you found one 40 years ago. You win.

You said “nobody has ever…” You didn’t say “nobody has in the last 39 years. You’re just admitting that you make claims that you haven’t researched well.

The MBS places them in the solid left side, and based on 25 reviews all sides places them tentatively in leans left. Non-propaganda news has stood using the term (eg NYT, WSJ, CST, CNN).

What are you talking about? Quinnipiac University polling has a “center” rating from all sides.

I can’t find an entry on them from mediabiasfactcheck.com.

Your piece doesn’t make the point you think it does. To start: the national polling numbers put those that think 6th was a pre-planned attack is closer to 80% with most polls in the mid to upper 70s.

That’s included in what I’m saying it says.

Most also believe that it was independent of anything else that occurred that day.

I don’t see support for this statement or a question in the poll that says anything like this.

Second, the people simply replied to the poll as stated here, the newspaper, not the people, chose the inaccurate term “insurrection”.

The poll was by Quinnipiac University. It wasn’t a newspaper.

Most reputable news outlets

I’m not at all curious who you think is a reputable news outlet.

have stopped using the term because it is factually wrong and legally problematic.

[citation needed]

Most democrats have backed away from the term. For that same reason.

[citation needed]

There was no scheduled transfer that day.

It was certification of who won that was the start of a transfer of power. You can’t transfer power if you don’t officially recognize who won the election. You’re intentionally being obtuse here. Transfer of power isn’t a single act on inauguration day.

Therefore the assailants were not stopping a transfer, nor overthrowing the government they were stopping, or delaying, the process that would eventually lead to the future transfer of power.

They did delay the process. They literally stopped an official proceeding and evacuated Congress.

That’s why the highest crime being charged was disruption of official government business.

That business being an official session of Congress in which the winner of the election was being certified.

I’m with you on calling out the few criminals that broke the law that day. The less than one percent in a group of thousands of peaceful protestors that used the protest as cover for criminal acts.

Being a part of a mob that trespassed was a criminal act.

I’d go so far as to say those few were actually intended insurrections, though they were incapable of carrying out any form of insurrection that day.

This admission just killed your own argument. You’re admitting that there was an insurrection (hint: it doesn’t have to succeed in overthrowing the government to be called an insurrection). It was indeed a failed insurrection, but it was still an insurrection.

Yes, and to claim that show me one person forced by any member of the Trump government that forced anyone to attempt insurrection. A fun. A threat of force. A threat of jail. A threat to family. Any force involved.

Note your instant pivot. I used to the word “cause,” which you switched to “force.” It’s possible to cause someone to do something without forcing them through threat of violence or jail or blackmail. That you think cause requires force is just your lack of imagination again.

I stated my belief. I was called a racist. I corrected that false belief. I believe in legal immigration.

You completely lost the context of this thread.

Stephen stated:

You want it surface-level because thinking past the surface might lead you to the knowledge that yes, subtext in political speech is a thing and you’ve been ignoring it because you agree with Donald Trump on everything from his racist beliefs about immigrants to his desire to be a dictator during his second term.

It was Trump’s racist beliefs about immigrants that we were referring to and his racism isn’t about legal immigration. He denigrates legal immigrants as well. If he just espoused legal immigration without targeting racial groups and nationalities, he’d be less likely to be called racist. But he’s literally using racist and fascist terms in reference to immigrants from specific places. He’s also previously said he’d prefer immigration from a bunch of European countries with predominantly white populations. You’re excusing his racism by pretending his thoughts about the immigrants he’s targeted is solely about their legal status.

“Peacefully”

I’m glad you put that in quotation marks or else I might think you were trying to imply that it was actually peaceful.

We can argue about others who used more inflammatory language, but unlike you I blame the actor alone.

“We can argue about what an elephant looks like, but I’ve gouged out my eyes so I can see better than you can!”

Admitting that you have a narrow and ignorant approach to viewing a situation isn’t the flex you think it is.

Then again, I don’t run and cry to momma or the moderator when someone called me a bad word.

Who are you talking about here?

Those few that actually broke the law did so of their own will alone.

Sure, they weren’t there because Trump held a rally that day. They didn’t go to the capitol because he told them to. The earth also doesn’t orbit the sun and water isn’t wet. Any other falsehoods we’d like to throw on the pile?

Because live video feed would eliminate gaps.

Except, again, we had video and the contents of the video were lied about by people with a motivation to cast doubt on legitimate processes. So you’re asserting something that has already been proven false. You’re just spitballing without any spit.

I don’t have a clue what happened in Georgia. And don’t care, personally.

You support a lot of proven liars for not caring, personally.

There was not enough fraud to change the results. But there was fraud.

Most proven fraud has been on the part of Republican voters.

“Clearly, the balance of evidence shows that the overwhelming majority of voter fraud cases was found to involve Trump supporters.”

More than any previous recent election.

[citation needed]

The fact was our election system was misused and abused by both intentional acts and idiocy.

By whom? [citation again is needed]

We’ll never agree on this.

Yeah, I already realized that.

I have never sought to blame anyone other than myself for my mistakes. Even when I was misinformed, I should have done better research.

That’s bullshit. You will encounter situations in life in which you’re not able to do better research. You will encounter situations where people you trust will lie to you. You will encounter situations where people will attempt to manipulate you. Not everyone thinks clearly. Not everyone can resist letting their biases influence their decisions. Not everyone is of a sound mind and emotional state with an infinite amount of time to stop and rethink and research. Yes, people are responsible for their own actions, but other people can also contribute. Those other people are also responsible for their own actions in contributing to the decisions of others via lies, fraud, deception, blackmail, etc.

I don’t believe in transferring culpability to others’ words.

It’s not a transfer. It’s like fire. It grows when it spreads. There’s just more responsibility to go around.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

payroll tax.

Assuming you pay it in the first place. You have the personal tax deduction and the earned income tax credit with combined make 99% of those under 18000 tax free at the end of the year.

poor people to pay more taxes

How does increasing the minimum taxable income to above the minimum standard of living make poor people pay more?

Except all a wealthy person has to do is borrow money against their assets and not pay it off until they die

That’s a (semi) secured line. No different than a title loan or mortgage or any other equity loan.

eliminate death and estate taxes

The same thing in general and I disagree with that completely. Taxing non-spendable “value” is theft. Your taxing non exchangeable current implied values that can change at any time.

If you support her financial policies, then you would oppose a flat tax. She doesn’t propose a flat tax.

Then you really need to look into her writeup on universal income payments. Which specifically includes a flat tax rate for most income brackets. Yes, she still had some progressive appeasement aspects at the time she called for it. Before the Clinton progressive camp illicitly (possibly illegally) blocked her choice for candidacy from the ballot. (I’ll pass on the – name debate).

wouldn’t notice if their bank accounts were $10,000

Under the most consistent flat tax proposals of the last 40 years nobody under 25000-50000 would pay taxes at all. To get to a 10,000 tax bill you need to earn 100,000 in a year. At which point the national average family of 3 wouldn’t be any worse off for it. That’s despite that not being the flat tax proposals I support.

Republican

Yes, republican plans tend to be lower starting brackets than liberal plans from any other party.
So I’ll clarify since you like to read things I didn’t say: I support a national social security for all monthly payment of $2000 and a minimum taxable bracket starting at $24000 and the first 24000 being non-taxable. I’d accept any flat tax proposal that set the minimum rate over 24000. That would put the bottom 1% even with the liveable income level.

https://jacobin.com/2019/01/ocasio-cortez-70-percent-tax-redistribution-wealth

Keep in mind it was dems who shut that down. And her response was more or less show me a reasonable flat tax.
No, I don’t recall the exact words and can’t find a video recording of the press interaction but it was a late July 2019 press statement. And the point where I went from seeing here as a “psycho-greenie” with some good policies to a reasonable negotiator with some psycho greenie policies.

you said

I said, and I quote:

. As far as I’m aware, (you can sight a reliable source if I’m wrong)

You happened to go back before I could legally vote. Take the win and acknowledgment with dignity there buddy.

What are you talking about?

There is no such thing in fact as an honest polling method in this country. That a liberal university has chosen wording that skirts the legal facts doesn’t make it any more reliable. People tend to answer the questions regardless of the wording when asked. Here the key part of the question is if people thought the criminal actions were pre planned. Most republicans think there was a clandestine group that used the cover of the rally for their own reasons. I’m more surprised that so many dems do.
Just like most republicans will admit that the criminal acts during EVERY major BLM protest were conducted by outsiders not involved with or interested in the BLM rally/protest.

mediabiasfactcheck.com.

I wouldn’t know, not a site I use. I use allsides and the media bias survey to know what has been handed to me.

That’s included in what I’m saying it says

Fox News reported on Jan 5 that there were people planting materials the night before. Even the most diehard right is in agreement. A tiny faction, and likely cling ons, operates to use the rally and subsequent peaceful protest as cover for illegal actions.

I’m not at all curious who you think is a reputable news outlet

Too bad, I’ll say it again anyway. Papers like NYT and WSJ stick to facts in their non-editorial content. They retract mistakes with public acknowledgment. That’s unlike the likes of WaPo and OANN. Who rarely make retractions in the first place.

citation needed

a violent uprising against an authority or government~Bing (Microsoft encarta)

citation needed 2

Show me a centrist paper using that term in a non-editorial piece in the last 6 months. It’s factually incorrectly. NYT and CNN have both not just stopped using the term but replaced it in earlier reports.

Transfer of power isn’t a single act on inauguration day.

Yes it is. It happens when the new president is sworn in. Before that is preparation and verification. But the only aspect of the actual change of leadership happens when the president elect finishes the oath of office, this becoming the president.

They did delay the process

I apparently lost a semicolon.

government; they were stopping, or delaying

That business being

The crime being “disruption of official government business” regardless of what business it was.

Being a part of a mob that trespassed was a criminal act.

Yes it was. Being one of thousands that committed no crime in a peaceful protest was not.

This admission just killed your own argument

“intended” is key there. That a few dozen idiots intended to do something doesn’t change the fact that they could not in any way, shape, or form, commit the acts they may or may not have intended.

but it was still an insurrection.

By law it is not. Nobody that day intended to overthrow the Trump administration. As Biden was not the president and not yet even confirmed as winning the next presidency, he could not be overthrown, prior to taking office.
Insurrection is the overthrow of the current government, not a potential future one.

You like Newsweek:
https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-capitol-rioters-jailed-sentences-january-6-1826075

Notice the quantity of insurrection convictions?

That you think cause requires force is just your lack of imagination again.

Save it. I won’t change your mind and you won’t change mine. I would never hold a 3rd party accountable for the actions of an individual (excepting the legal requirement of parental responsibility and guardian responsibility).

He denigrates legal immigrants as well

Where?

without targeting racial groups and nationalities

Despite something close to 99% of illegal immigration being from central and South America? It’s a fact. Should he have ignored the fact for ignorance in the population?

prefer immigration from a bunch of European countries with predominantly white populations

When?

might think you were trying to imply that it was actually peaceful.

It was by the 99.9% of attendees.

Admitting that you have a narrow and ignorant approach

People are responsible only, and solely, for the actions they take.

Who are you talking about here?

Anyone who takes actions solely based on the words of others are mentally weak.

Sure, they weren’t there because Trump held a rally that day

No, apparently based on footage from around the area on the 5th they intended to use the rally and protest as cover.
These people were not Trump supporters, they were militant anarchists. I won’t deny they may have convinced a few mentally weak trump supporters, but that’s not the point.

Except, again, we had video and the contents of the video were lied about

The cases?
No, it was questioned, explained, and dropped. By most anyway.

In Huston? No: that was a fact never disproven. Watchers were sent away and the count continued.

In Phili? Nope. Clearly watchers were never close enough to do their job.

Again I didn’t follow Georgia. It was us thing in non-partisan news till much later and long after it was proven that if these women did what they are accused of, it didn’t change the election, and if they didn’t, it didn’t change the election.

I get two newspapers daily in my trader dead. Heather spent any time on Georgia until the recent trial: I never read it because it doesn’t matter. If there’s evidence they would be convicted. If the evidence lacks they would walk free, the actual facts of what happened to remain unproven.

You support a lot of proven liars

You misinterpret my dislike (read hatred) of pointless, excessive, punitive damages as support for those who suffer them.

A quick gloss of my post history here or anywhere else will show disdain for punitive punishment across the board regardless of politics or action.
I despise pirate even more than those who block advertises. But I’ve always been vocal against charging $250.000 for a $5 film shared with one person.

Most proven fraud has been on the part of Republican voters.

What’s your point here. Fraud is fraud.
The elections need to be secured further. That a few thousand Trump voters committed fraud? That over 10.000 ballots were mishandled?
There should be roughly zero fraud. That can be achieved with a free national id m.
and full, complete, license broadcast and cloud recorded video of every ballot count.

citation needed

Im guestimating based on the thousands of ballots found in parking lots, road ditches, in homes of postal carriers, backdated postage stamping, and fraudulent ballot harvesting.

By whom

Do you deny the bags of ballots found in a California parking lot. Those found in dumpsters. Along the road side in Arizona? The backdating in Pennsylvania?
Do you deny your own link showing Trump supporter fraud? Do you deny ballot harvesting that intentionally skipped know Republican homes?

That’s bullshit

No, it’s fact. I alone am responsible for my actions.

contributing to the decisions of others

Not to me. If any of your list of reasons were to pass, it remains my fault alone. The level of thought and knowledge in my actions does not lessen my sole responsibility for my actions.
In reality you and STS and the like. You hold the ideals, consciously or unconsciously, to shield yourself from personal responsibility.
I will sue the driver that hit me, not the one that caused them to swerve.
And I would sue the drunk, to recover the funds lost for hitting an innocent driver. A loss I incited by hitting them.
Then again, I wouldn’t swerve in the first place. If a drunk is going to hit me, they hit me, and I sue them into oblivion. That’s my mentality in life in general. I don’t seek trouble; but I won’t run from it either.

And if STS and you and progressives in general want to albums a sociopath for that I will counter with:
I’m an ape and like most apes on the planet I will protect my tribe and myself. I believe in survival by instinct. Sometimes I make mistakes and if I do so be it. I learn and move on. What I won’t do is pretend someone else is responsible for my ignorance or errors.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Your shit’s too long (which is saying something coming from me!) and I’m still in a semi-festive spirit, so I’mma just pick out a few things to address instead going over all your shit.

her response was more or less show me a reasonable flat tax

And I still haven’t seen one to this day because every flat tax proposal refuses to address the idea of financial utility and how taking money from people hits differently depending on their income level. Someone making $40k a year is going to miss 10% of their income far more acutely and directly than someone who makes $40m a year when the first person needs to handle an unforeseen financial emergency such as a visit to the hospital.

I went from seeing her[] as a “psycho-greenie”

What, specifically, qualifies AOC for a diagnosis of mental psychosis?

Most republicans think there was a clandestine group that used the cover of the rally for their own reasons.

I seriously doubt that.

Even the most diehard right is in agreement. A tiny faction, and likely cling ons, operates to use the rally and subsequent peaceful protest as cover for illegal actions.

Yeah, and the “diehard right” tends to believe that a bunch of plants from the so-called Deep State who were trying to make Trump supporters (which includes avowed white supremacist groups like the Proud Boys among their ranks) look bad. That’s the “faction” you’re talking about here.

Yes it is. It happens when the new president is sworn in.

The transfer of power begins as soon as the election is called. It formally ends at the inauguration. Between those two moments is when all the work for that transfer of power goes down across much of the federal government⁠—including, yes, the certification of the results. Donald Trump tried his damnedest to delay the transfer of power long enough to stay in office; his failure to do that was the direct result of enough people in enough places having enough balls to tell him “fuck you” in formal government language. (That level of courage won’t happen again because Republican plans like Project 2025 will make sure that won’t happen again.)

“intended” is key there. That a few dozen idiots intended to do something doesn’t change the fact that they could not in any way, shape, or form, commit the acts they may or may not have intended.

Given how the intruders inside the Capitol and the rioters outside the Capitol far outnumbered the police for hours, and given that only one officer fired his service weapon to protect Congress, I’d argue that the insurrectionists could’ve overpowered the entire police force and gotten to Pence and the Congresspeople inside the Capitol if the rioters had really put their whole collective ass into the effort.

Also, you may want to read this piece about beliefs and intentions.

Nobody that day intended to overthrow the Trump administration.

They intended to disrupt the processes of American democracy to keep Donald Trump in power despite his having lost a free and fair election. (Side note: Neither you, Trump, nor anyone else has ever been able to prove it wasn’t a free and fair election.) If you don’t think that was (and still is) some fascist bullshit, I have news for you: You’re not as anti-fascist as you want us to believe you are.

I would never hold a 3rd party accountable for the actions of an individual

Let’s say I give you a loaded gun. Then I point out a person to you, then tell you that person has harmed, or is about to harm, a member of your family. (You love your family more than anyone but yourself, right?) I show you evidence to back up my claim; the evidence is fake, but it is still convincing enough for you to believe me. How would I not be responsible for murder if you shoot that person in the head to protect, or exact revenge for, your oh-so-precious family despite me not actually telling you to pull the trigger?

These people were not Trump supporters, they were militant anarchists

Prove it.

A quick gloss of my post history here or anywhere else will show disdain for punitive punishment across the board regardless of politics or action.

If you have a disdain for punitive punishment, does that mean you have a disdain for jailing serial killers and pedophiles for anything longer than the length of time it took to commit their crimes? Because punitive punishment can (and does) include lengthy jail sentences that attempt to deter people thinking of committing similar crimes from committing those crimes.

What’s your point here. Fraud is fraud.

The point is that out of the handful of actual cases of voter fraud discovered in the 2020 election, the overwhelming majority of them were committed by Trump supporters/Republican voters. You want to act like that fact doesn’t matter because it ruins your narrative of the elections being broken to shit thanks to a bunch of Democrats “going rogue” because of the pandemic.

The elections need to be secured further. That a few thousand Trump voters committed fraud?

That…that’s cute, that you think there were thousands of actual cases of voter fraud in the 2020 election. But last time I checked⁠—and I could be wrong⁠—the number of such cases related to the 2020 election wasn’t even in the hundreds. Voter fraud is so rare in presidential elections that it is a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the total votes in the election itself: “[I]n Texas, [the Heritage Foundation] found 103 cases of confirmed election fraud. However, those 103 ranged from 2005 to 2022 during which time over 107 million ballots were cast. There were 11 million ballots cast in the 2020 presidential election alone. The fraud in Texas amounted to 0.000096% of all ballots cast — hardly evidence of a fundamentally corrupt system.” (Source)

you and STS and the like. You hold the ideals, consciously or unconsciously, to shield yourself from personal responsibility.

I take responsibility for everything I say and do⁠—and that includes any responsibility for things other people do based directly on my words and deeds. (“Cause and effect” seems to be another concept you have difficulty grasping.)

I wouldn’t swerve in the first place.

You can say that now, but in the heat of the moment, can you really be so sure that you’ll stay true to your word? After all, you did say “I believe in survival by instinct”, and nothing is so instinctual as trying to avoid direct and oncoming danger.

I’m an ape and like most apes on the planet I will protect my tribe and myself.

And in the process, you will doom countless people to pain and suffering because you voted for people who will inflict that pain and suffering on “undesirables” out of the hope that you will not be in that group when the party in power looks at you. Your support for Donald Trump emboldened racists, misogynists, queerphobes, and all other kinds of bigots to be open and direct with their bigotry⁠—to the point where white supremacists were unafraid to march for their cause in public and transphobes started passing laws that literally target a single individual transgender child for playing sports under the “wrong” gender. You might think what happens to queer people in Russia can’t happen here, but the kind of Americans who support what’s described in that article are Trump supporters, and they’ll gladly make that shit happen here with a prayer and a round of thunderous applause.

In your selfish desire to vote only in the best interests of yourself by voting Republican, you throw people marginalized by the candidates you support right under the bus. The grand irony is that, like Trump voters, you’re also throwing Republican voters under the bus because they don’t tend to realize that they’ve been voting against their own best interests for as long as they’ve been voting Republican until it’s way too late. Or do you think every woman who votes Republican likes the idea of having their bodily autonomy snatched away from them by conservative lawmakers?

I can understand wanting to protect your family and friends. Noble cause, that. But voting is about more than them because⁠—and God, I hate to use this line, but I don’t really have a better way of phrasing it⁠—you live in a society that has more than your family and friends in it. Your vote is a vote not only for the people you love, but for the people you hate, and for the people you don’t know. Your vote is about deciding who is seen as worthy of being treated as people⁠—like, say, hungry children.

I don’t vote Republican precisely because the GOP is either unwilling or unable to offer that kind of governance. I guess I can’t say the same for you because you voted for Donald Trump twice⁠—and unless something happens to keep him out of the election, you’re going to vote for him a third time because you hate Joe Biden almost as much as you hate Hillary Clinton and you are not the kind of person who will waste their vote on someone who has no chance of winning even a single electoral vote, never mind the whole-ass election.

Such is your fate, Trumpist. You can dread it, you can run from it, but destiny arrives all the same.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Il try to be kind and rational in response.

And I still haven’t seen one to this day

Universal payments to every citizen and legal permanent resident of $4000 per month, being $48.000 per year.
10% tax on any and all income. With a $50.000 deduction.
Coupled with walk-in-free healthcare. There’s your fair tax and income plan.

What, specifically, qualifies AOC for a diagnosis of mental psychosis?

The practicing term is psychotic dedication.
Shared psychotic disorder. It’s slightly different than delusion. An irrational dedication to a belief.
Such ideas as an immediate end to coal use. Despite clear technological advances that has brought us both Cleaner sorting, better mineral recovery, and carbon capture, AND carbon reuse. Or the fact that an immediate end would leave over two thirds of the world without reliable power.

I seriously doubt that.

Because you fail to comprehend that the party whole is not your tiny far right nutz. Or that most people in the party, or attached to the party somehow, want nothing to do with the ring right.
I prefer gradual change to the ease of betterment in time. You demand immediate acceptance. Did you notice even democrats (eg women’s rights groups) are against mis-gendering in competition? How about the hundreds of cases of abuse by men in women’s restrooms and lockers and showers? I’m all for ‘have an orgy Central Park at noon’! But society is not there. Forced acceptance has never worked. You need to build tolerance to change first. Or you risk serious consequences.

Yeah, and the “diehard right”

See above. You have a grossly inaccurate understanding of the actual body politic. Just as there are factions of the voting bloc for the Democrat party (greens, communists, progressives, socialists), there are many factions in the Republican vote as well.
You also fail to comprehend how neither party has a national majority. Democrats didn’t elect Biden and Republicans didn’t elect Trump. The nation’s two main parties are both under 50%. Some say low 40/c others mid. That a tiny population of white militant Christian’s exists and votes Republican nationally doesn’t make them republicans.
The majority don’t blame the democrat party for anarchic Antifa either. Despite them being likely voters for the party. 100 people making up the, and supporters of, the PB doesn’t 1% make. And a party mover they are not.

I’d argue that the insurrectionists could’ve overpowered the entire police force

That it didn’t happen is proof of your misunderstanding of the event. There was no riot. There was a small, by number, criminal scuffle. Much how the BLM protests occasionally broke through boundaries.
The small group the invaded by criminal entry are no different than the small group of grand theft looters and arsonists over the par few years.
You can’t have it both ways. If you want to blame the tiny percentage of criminals in a peaceful post election protest against the party whole, you must equally condemn BLM for the tiny criminal elements that committed class 1 felonies under the guise of protest. Something I’m unwilling to do.

If you don’t think that was

I have never said it wasn’t free (fair is a different issue for a different time). I said there was fraud. More than before. That is a factual statement. I also said Biden still won despite the election despite that. My concern never was about who was elected (clear in my concerns posted since 2011 and about Trump since 2019).

How would I not be responsible for murder if you shoot that person in the head to protect, or exact revenge for, your oh-so-precious family despite me not actually telling you to pull the trigger?

A, you wouldn’t be. I pulled the trigger of my own accord. Shooting a threat is a last resort. I’m more likely to arm my family and barricade ourselves while we wait for the police. As for revenge? Revenge killing is not my mentality. I’ve had family die due to stupidity. I don’t pick up a weapon and kill over it. I sue you out of existence.
Revenge murder doesn’t bring someone back. That makes you as bad as the assailant.
The court and the populace should judge a crime based on unbiased fact. Not the angry retribution of the victims.

Prove it.

Prove they committed violence solely in the name of Trump? Feel free to take your time. Those that committed crimes were either part of, or at the time following, known militant groups. I doubt they are loyal to anything but themselves. Known anarchists were spotted on video on the 4th and 5th planting munitions and arms around the area. Many were arrested prior to the rally. Luckily preventing harm to thousands of peaceful protesters and members of the government. What such material does show is that the speeches on the 6th did not motivate those that were planning an assault long before.

If you have a disdain for punitive punishment

The punishment should match the crime.

narrative of the elections being broken to shit

Broken, no. Damaged? Yes. Potential for actual wide spread fraud, absolutely! The system needs to be shored up and reinforced. Now! Yesterday!

that includes any responsibility for things other people do based directly on my words and deeds

Then you’re foolish. You’re accepting blame for action another person did of their own free will.

can you really be so sure that you’ll stay true to your word

Yes, absolutely positively sure. A missing mirror, several smashed door, cracked window.
and their insurance paid for the damage. Just like it’s supposed to. If it did not I would have pursued a civil filing.

for playing sports under the

For killing women’s hard fought rights. Notice your “girls” are destroying women’s records despite never coming close to men’s qualifiers?

to vote only in the best interests of yourself

… family, friends, tribe (town) etc.
it make me a conscious, sentient, being who recognises one must fight for survival. You have only democrats who failed to enshrine rights in the constitution to blame for the proper restoration of state rifts in the overturning of RvW.
You have no right but that enshrined in the signed law of the moment and the constitution.

like, say, hungry children.

Wonder if that 70.7 billion euros the US spent to prop up the tyrant in Ukraine was better spent there than in the US for hungry children?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303432/total-bilateral-aid-to-ukraine/
Guess foreign banks and fighting communism is more important than feeding starving us citizens.

personal health care expenditure equaled 10,784 U.S. dollars per resident: 3.7 trillion.
You know how we could make that up easily? cut USAID, foreign war expenses, international defence.

I guess I can’t say the same for you because you voted for Donald Trump twice

Yes. I did. And for the issues I voted for he did, or tired to do, what he said.
Despite near complete democratic opposition, he began building a wall: one that Biden stopped, sold the equipment for, then bought the equipment again at inflated costs to begin again.
He reorganise trade, including with Mexico, which created a surplus far beyond the cost of the wall, so Mexico very much did pay for it.
He negotiated an end to the war in Afghanistan, which Biden botched in deadly incompetence.
He strengthened partnerships across Asia. Something Biden has not yet botched despite his idiocy on policy.
He pulled out of the scam and disaster of the Paris accord.
He strengthened protections on individual savings and investment accounts. The way the youngest members of our society can afford to go to school since neither party wants to fund education.
He recovered the terror bounty from Iran. Money better spent at home, and that Biden quickly gave back to them.

That said, unlike you I see a real chance for a third party break in 2024 and will vote the the candidate that most represents my wishes. They don’t belong to either party you consider us enslaved to. Dems are as dishappy with Biden as most Republicans. The party disunity is on display daily in the national leading papers. And a good chance of a republican split.
Having 4 competing large candidates offers room for a non-standard choice. It has happened. It can happen. And I hope it does.

What I won’t do is vote for a person likely to make most people I know wind up in the front lines of a Pacific war over the military equivalent of a slap or middle finger. The time for the bulldog to bite back was in 2001, not 2025. When the country decided to give us a frail weak old dog with no teeth. protective spending, border defence, national security, don’t ‘trump’ my concerns for my family and friends lives.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I’ve better things to do in this, the last week of 2023, so this is my last reply to you on this article.

There’s your fair tax and income plan.

It still doesn’t account for the utility issue. No flat tax proposal ever has or ever will.

The practicing term is psychotic dedication.

And I suppose you’re AOC’s psychiatrist now, huh.

Such ideas as an immediate end to coal use. Despite clear technological advances that has brought us both Cleaner sorting, better mineral recovery, and carbon capture, AND carbon reuse. Or the fact that an immediate end would leave over two thirds of the world without reliable power.

I’ve never seen her demand an immediate end to coal use. No one is stupid or foolish enough to truly believe we can immediately end using all fossil fuels right now. But transitioning away from them, and doing it faster than we are right now, is a lofty-yet-achievable goal that I wouldn’t consider to be “psychotic” unless I was being paid shitloads of money by an oil company to protect its best interests. As for the “cleaner fossil fuels” bit: They may be “cleaner” but they’re still polluting the world at levels and rates dangerous enough to make climate scientists start sounding louder and louder warning bells.

you fail to comprehend that the party whole is not your tiny far right nutz

The GOP no longer has a place for people like Mitt Romney or Liz Cheney. The GOP is beholden to its orange demigod and his willingness to court extremists in exchange for votes, power, and money. Given how the GOP has largely bent over backwards to keep Trump happy since he became the party’s presidential candidate in 2016, I daresay the party has become a party of Christofascist authoritarians who want to turn the U.S. into Gilead. (And given how they finally managed to kill Roe v. Wade, they’re well on the way to doing that.)

I prefer gradual change to the ease of betterment in time. You demand immediate acceptance.

I don’t demand “immediate acceptance”⁠—if I were to demand anything, it would be immediate tolerance. You don’t have to accept queer people; you only have to let them live and exist in the public sphere. Right-wingers (especially Trumpists) are the ones who can’t even accept gradual change. They’re the ones who are salivating over the idea of SCOTUS revisiting Obergefell and Lawrence v. Texas so that queer people can be turned back into second-class citizens despite no evidence that queer people are actively damaging society by merely existing. They’re the ones who are passing laws that target trans athletes, who are so few in number at even a high school level that those laws end up targeting a single individual trans person. Don’t you ever give me this shit about “demanding immediate acceptance” again, Lodos⁠—you’re not going to convince me that queer people need to give Trumpist fuckwits any more time than they’ve already had to accept the existence of queer people.

there are many factions in the Republican vote as well

And most of them still coalesce around the idea that Republican rule is (or should be) the natural state of affairs, poor people need to be fucked over at every turn, Republicans (especially presidents) are above the law so long as they can deliver power to the party, and petty sociopolitical “culture war” grievances are the most important thing to talk about at every possible opportunity. They might quibble on the details, but they tend to agree far more often than they disagree.

That it didn’t happen is proof of your misunderstanding of the event. There was no riot.

Hundreds, maybe even thousands of people marched onto the Capitol grounds on a day when the building was closed to the general public. Those people destroyed windows and doors to break into the Capitol, then destroyed and looted property inside the Capitol. They assaulted police officers with weapons to the point where several of them suffered major injuries. They chanted “hang Mike Pence”. We have all the evidence of that on tape. You’d probably be one of the first to call any event similar in tenor and activity happening in a Democrat-controlled state or city a “riot”; for what reason does what happened on the 6th of January 2021 not qualify as a riot other than your obvious sympathies towards the rioters and their cause?

If you want to blame the tiny percentage of criminals in a peaceful post election protest against the party whole, you must equally condemn BLM for the tiny criminal elements that committed class 1 felonies under the guise of protest.

No, I don’t. “BLM” is not an organized group in the sense that the movement as a whole has top-down leaders on a national level. The GOP is such a group, and its de facto leader knowingly riled up an already-hostile crowd to the point where they attempted to subvert American democracy so that leader could stay in power despite having lost a free and fair election. You’re not making a good enough argument to convince me otherwise; I doubt you ever will, given your near-blind loyalty to Trump.

I said there was fraud. More than before. That is a factual statement.

The implication of such statements (ah, there’s that pesky “subtext” concept again!) is that the fraud happened at levels that could’ve affected the outcome of the presidential election. You know damn well that it didn’t. Implying it did doesn’t help you look like less of a Trumpist.

A, you wouldn’t be. I pulled the trigger of my own accord.

I gave you the gun, a target, and false information that was designed to turn you into an emotional wreck⁠—all with the full knowledge that you were likely to pull the trigger once my setup was complete. I fail to see how I wouldn’t be responsible for the death of the person I effectively sent you to kill even if I never directly asked you to kill them.

Revenge murder doesn’t bring someone back.

And to quote Rick Sanchez: “I’m on more of a revenge kick than a results kick!” You can know revenge won’t bring someone back and still want revenge.

Those that committed crimes were either part of, or at the time following, known militant groups.

You really want to say that everyone at the rally was a hard-right militant? You really wanna go with that argument when there’s no proof to back it up? Alright, but…

What such material does show is that the speeches on the 6th did not motivate those that were planning an assault long before.

…Ashli Babbitt, so far as I or anyone else knows, didn’t belong to any such militant groups and didn’t plan on going to D.C. that day for any reason other than the Trump rally. She’s dead because she made a bunch of bad decisions, the first of which was listening to Trump and the last of which was not listening to cops. But sure, go ahead and tell me how she was secretly a Proud Boys leader. You’ll be a liar, but at least you’ll be telling a new lie instead of trying to pass her off as a martyr to the Trumpian cause.

You’re accepting blame for action another person did of their own free will.

Yes, that’s a thing I would do if something I say or do inspires someone else to do something awful⁠—and that’s because I’m not a goddamned sociopath.

Yes, absolutely positively sure.

In the heat of the moment, faced with a two-ton death machine in your path and a head-on collision that could likely be fatal, do you really believe⁠—with the absolute and unyielding certainty that only God could have⁠—you can control your self-preservation instincts to the point where you’d willingly let that car hit you and kill you?

For killing women’s hard fought rights. Notice your “girls” are destroying women’s records despite never coming close to men’s qualifiers?

Notice how you didn’t give a single fuck about women’s sports until the GOP told you trans girls were “invading” and “dominating”? Don’t hand me this bullshit, Lodos⁠—I know that for all those claims, trans women aren’t dominating women’s sports to any significant degree.

And last time I checked, by the way, trans women didn’t take away a woman’s right to have an abortion⁠—that was all a bunch of cisgender Republicans working for decades to unravel federal abortion protections, then pass laws against abortions once Roe fell.

I’d tell you to find some sympathy for trans people, but you’ve proven that you’re incapable of sympathy for anyone but your family and the GOP.

I see a real chance for a third party break in 2024

I’m going to say this one more time and pray it breaks through your thick-as-steel skull: No third-party presidential candidate has won a single electoral vote in decades. You would be voting for, at best, a candidate who will play spoiler by siphoning off enough votes from one of the only two viable candidates such that the other one wins the state. Your vote would send no message to anyone but yourself. Your vote would be a waste.

You’re going to vote for Trump when the time comes because you can’t stop hating Hillary Clinton and you’ll eventually realize that wasting your vote isn’t going to help you or your family. And to paraphrase Paul Heyman: That isn’t a prediction⁠—that’s a spoiler.

Having 4 competing large candidates offers room for a non-standard choice.

Again: It won’t matter because any candidate who isn’t one of the Big Two stands literally no chance in hell of achieving anything but “spoiler” status. The last time any third-party candidate managed to achieve anything close to actual success in an election was Ross Perot taking nearly 20% of the popular vote in 1992⁠—and he still didn’t win a single electoral vote.

What I won’t do is vote for a person likely to make most people I know wind up in the front lines of a Pacific war over the military equivalent of a slap or middle finger.

Yes, yes, we know you give a shit only about your family and not anyone else who might be affected by a war in that region⁠—or by GOP policies that attack the marginalized, the poor, the downtrodden, the broken, the beaten, and the damned.

I’m a queer atheist, Lodos. The GOP you voted for, you supported, you helped put into power in 2016 (and tried to keep in power in 2020)⁠? They would prefer that people like me didn’t exist. And so long as I live, I will vote against that preference. I will vote not only to protect myself, but to protect other queer people and other atheists⁠—even ones that I don’t personally know!⁠—from the Christofascist authoritarianism of Republican politicians and those who help them rise to power. I will vote to help keep from the levers of power those who would use those levers to marginalize all women into being nothing but baby factories akin to the handmaids in Margaret Atwood’s most famous novel. I will vote to support candidates who want to end homelessness and poverty rather than push it out of sight so no one has to think about it.

But you keep voting only to protect a small group of friends and family, Lodos. They seem to be the only society you actually care about.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

It still doesn’t account for the utility issue

I’m not understanding what you are trying to say.

AOC’s psychiatrist now

Nope. Just as I’ve stated many a time over Biden’s condition, there are a lot of medical specialists in my extended family. And I like to read.

right now

You missed the big climate summit then. As it was suggested (and ignored).

GOP has largely bent over backwards

You apparently missed the Republican debates as well.

kill Roe v. Wade

The decision at the time was a violation of the constitution that was rectified. Blame the democrats for ignoring medical rights.

target trans athletes

Biological men decimating women’s sports?
“demanding immediate acceptance” is exactly what progressives are pushing. It took half a century to not look over your shoulder for a knife or gun when two people of the same gender hold hands. The bull headed, pig headed, rapid demand to force an unwilling society to change never works. What it did do and is doing is undoing the progress that was made to this point. “you’re not going to convince me that queer people need to give Trumpist fuckwits any more time than they’ve already had” is where you fail to understand the situation. Many Democrats are against misgendering as well. The country isn’t ready and like it or not you aren’t going to stop bigotry by law. You simply painted an even larger target on the people you claim to want to protect.
In doing so you have destroyed what progress we’ve made for LGBT rights in the last half century.

Hundreds, maybe even thousands of people marched onto the Capitol grounds

Thousands. Marched peacefully in protest. A tiny minority committed criminal acts that day. There is zero difference in actions compared to every other major protest in the last few years. “Hang Mike pence is free speech”. Hanging Mike pence is a crime. Or did you miss all those signs of crosshairs on the image of Trump since 2016? Or “the only good cop is a dead cop” ?

fraud happened at levels that could’ve affected the outcome

Despite my stating it didn’t change the results? You imagined something that wasn’t said. You don’t care because your candidate won, like most Democrats. I’ve called out election issues for over two decades. This time, it blew up. If there was a tighter more controlled system there wouldn’t be a debate. Results would have been confirmed by poll watchers. Governors wouldn’t have committed “interference”. Ballots wouldn’t have been abandoned.
I aware your response in December of 24 if Trump wins. When democrats get up in arms over it. Swing that you forgot about the protests and demands for recounts and even a new election in 2016. Even after Clinton conceded.

You can know revenge won’t bring someone back and still want revenge.

Not everyone is as violent as you appear to be. Don’t push your reaction probability on me. I’m not you or a cartoon character.

She’s dead because she made a bunch of bad decisions

She’s dead because she entered a restricted space illegally and an officer used deadly force She caused her own demise.

Yes, that’s a thing I would do

I am solely responsible for my actions.

with the absolute and unyielding certainty

No. But I hope my instincts and training would keep me whole to my core. To be aware of my surroundings and not cause others to be risked for my own sake.

Notice how you didn’t give a single fuck about women’s sports

Until a failed male swimmer destroyed women’s records. Notice just as many democrats are screaming about it.

trans women didn’t take away a woman’s right to have an abortion

There is no right except signed law or the constitution. No right was taken away as no right existed. Again, democrats have had decades to codify that right and failed to do so.

No third-party presidential candidate has won a single electoral vote in decades

Glad to see you don’t support democracy. Interesting to note you are a sheep who mindlessly does what you are told. Baahh.
2016 gave us 7 electoral votes for the non-party candidate. Yes the last major pull was 1968. A similar period when the two main parties were fractured. Same in 1960.
1924. 1896.
In times of turmoil things are less red and blue.

Somehow you’re stuck in Trump being the Republican candidate. Which is far from certain. He has almost guaranteed war with China if elected. Not something a large chunk of the GOP is a fan of. Especially the largest donors. A large population of republicans simply voted against Biden. But are very unlikely to vote for a war destined Trump. The benefits of his national security and America first plan fail to motivate when he would lead us to an almost guaranteed war.

And Biden, is dedicated to supporting Isreal and Ukraine despite a large percentage of the population being against spending on both.

And you’re an ignorant fool if you can’t see the full blown cracks in the democrat party. So much so that CNN is consistently discussing Harris doing an end run. Both parties have been breaking up for years now. You see that with full support in the EC in 16 for non-principals.
20 gave both parties a strong fear of the other. But the majority of the country dislikes both main names at the moment.

I doubt a 3rd party will win in 24. But 24 is not the end of the world (I hope). And a strong play by anyone off main ticket could be the final tremor that gives us a new platform in 26 or 28.

Neither Biden nor Trump should be anywhere near the presidency at this point. But one will likely win. The real question is can someone unify the country in the middle coming out of what will be further division of the populace, disgusted at what we are being forced to choose between. The only way that happens is for those of us who believe in options to vote for our choice, not what is forced on us. As a choice has a good chance to rise above the pond scum of the two party system forced on us in the future.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I am solely responsible for my actions.

Then you’re solely responsible for spewing falsehoods spread by propaganda machines and echo chambers. You’re making claims that are easily proven false with photos and videos and courtroom testimony and polls. You claim you’re making factual statements when you also admit “guestimating.” You pretend to know about politics, but you don’t even know the name of one of the biggest political parties.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I think you’re mad I don’t support the GPL. Which takes away rights of future code contributors by forcing they comply with the previous license.

The numbers and video show visually what occurred on Jan 6. Literally less than 2% of those there committed any crime at all. Those that did have been prosecuted.

You pretend to know about politics, but you don’t even know the name of one of the biggest political parties

There are only two large parties today. The Democrat party and the Republican Party. Both are factions of a former party that broke on policy issues, the Democrat-Republican party. Which itself (in majority) is a split of the Federalist party.
Those parties developed from the political nature of leadership based on prior parties in the British Empire; despite our early country attempting to dodge such political camping.

The US, like the UK, sees a major party break roughly every 100 years. Rather than point to the official election history, I’ll point viewers to a well documented, provably accurate, easy to read chart:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election#Electoral_college_results

Both parties have been on the edge of a break for some time. Despite temporary handshaking to tackle an issue every few years. The Carter era split the democrats along financial policy lines. The Progressives who have risen to dominate the party and the personal liberty branch that was previously the bedrock of the party.

The republicans have also seen a split with the Reagan era. Where a now-controlling group pushed the religious idealism to the core of action. Overtaking the fiscal core of the party.
Obama ran as a Liberty democrat and had been one in Illinois. One I strongly supported. Sadly he shifted into the progressive camp over his 8 years. Firmly abandoning personal freedom by his 6th year for progressive policy.

Trump was a wealthy businessman. One who believed in, and ran on, expense reduction and non-involvement.
Side note: there’s a large difference between non-involvement (which I support) and isolationism (which I don’t).

That in his later time he failed to condemn certain far right groups, didn’t bother me. Any more than Obama ignoring the militant fringe anarchist trend in the far left. Mind you the eco movement reached its height in this country directly under Obama policy.

When the country was founded it was, quite literally, the same as the EU today. Or the UAE. 13 individual states, a direct and literal synonym for country. 13 self governing countries bound by a democratically elected set of representatives to a guiding Union. Each state setting its own laws, rules, and regulations within the confines of the Union mandate.

I have a far better grasp of the reality of our political existence than most in this forum, if not most in general. Even if I don’t dive into political nuance in modern practice as thoroughly.

That doesn’t change factual reality. The two party system is dying. The nation is bleeding. And no prime candidate put forth by either main party for 24, main line or sideline, is worthy of the office of president.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I think you’re mad I don’t support the GPL.

I love that you think I’m a FOSS fan. That you double down on that after I’ve pointed out that you don’t have to be one to support user rights over their own devices and data is hilarious. I don’t care what you support or don’t support.

Which takes away rights of future code contributors by forcing they comply with the previous license.

You’ve done this several times where you bring up non sequiturs and then strawman people on topics they haven’t taken a stance on.

The numbers and video show visually what occurred on Jan 6. Literally less than 2% of those there committed any crime at all.

This is a vague, useless statement. What occurred on January 6th was multiple events. There was a rally before and then a mass trespassing of the capitol building. Grouping the two to dilute the amount of crime occurring in the trespassing and interruption of the Congressional session is a poor effort.

Also, your claims of percentages are often wildly wrong. You said coal was responsible for two thirds of the world’s energy when it’s around 38%. You never fact check your own claims with actual research, much less five seconds of googling. You don’t care enough about the veracity of what you say. It makes your arguments sloppy.

Those that did have been prosecuted.

Another provably false statement. The Speaker of the House literally said he wants to release more footage but to blur out faces to protect the criminals from prosecution. There were far more people trespassing and interrupting the Congressional session than have been prosecuted.

You could literally just do a search for recent news on the topic to find out you’re wrong:

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/18/miami-republican-jan-6-00132320

There are only two large parties today. The Democrat party and the Republican Party.

Oh, sorry, no points there. For the folks playing at home, the correct answer we’re looking for is “Democratic Party.” Democrat is a noun, not an adjective and it’s not the name of the party. “Democrat Party” is a term used by conservatives as an intentional slight. It’s also a good indicator of the propaganda sources you consume. Nobody with a neutral or left medias bias rating uses the term “Democrat Party” unless they’re quoting someone on the right.

The US, like the UK,

And I’m assuming you’re from the UK or one of it’s other former colonies because you keep using British spellings of words with Ss instead of Zs.

The Progressives who have risen to dominate the party

If the progressives had risen to dominate the party, Joe Biden and Hilary Clinton wouldn’t have been the most recent presidential candidates. The Democratic Party is still largely dominated by centrists who maintain the status quo and support corporate interests. They are more progressive on social issues, but that’s only followed public opinion rather than led it. If they were as progressive as you want to imagine, there would have been much more progressive legislation passed whenever they had a majority in Congress and the presidency. The ACA would have been single payer instead of a compromise.

That in his later time he failed to condemn certain far right groups, didn’t bother me.

Trump didn’t just fail to condemn certain far right groups. He asked for their support. He repeated their rhetoric. He endorsed their conspiracy theories. He attempted to remain in power after losing an election in violation of his oath of office.

Any more than Obama ignoring the militant fringe anarchist trend in the far left.

That you compare the two is just another example of your false equivalencies and “both sides” bullshit. Every time someone mentions Trump, you pivot to a comparison of someone on the left as if morality is relative and if someone else did something wrong, it makes it okay for your guy to have down something wrong. For believing so strongly in sole responsibility morality, you let people who actively do bad things off the hook a lot.

I have a far better grasp of the reality of our political existence than most in this forum, if not most in general. Even if I don’t dive into political nuance in modern practice as thoroughly.

You have a far better grasp of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. You literally admitted to “guestimating” a statement and then later claimed it was a fact. You don’t know as much as you’d like and your repetition of right wing talking points indicates you get your “knowledge” from unreliable, biased sources.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

You’ve done this several times where you bring up non sequiturs and then strawman people on topics they haven’t taken a stance on

GPL is reciprocal. You can’t create anything new from it under a different license. Meaning both commercial, and truly free, licenses are not usable.

mass trespassing of the capitol building

No: there was a protest rally on the grounds of the capital building following the rally that was 100% legal.
There was a small group of people who trespassed into the building without permission. Those trespassers were separate from those who were allowed in by congressional members (3 I believe) or police officers (a few hundred). Of the thousands on the capital grounds that day (legally) protesting peacefully, less than 1% violated the law. There were 120,000 protesters according to the Secret Service.
Less than 200 broke into the building. A few hundred more were allowed in by police.
That’s less than 1%. Math isn’t your forte is it.

Also of note: “The Secret Service added: “There are approximately fifty nine (59) groups identified as potentially participating in First Amendment activities on January 6, 2021” not the single mob progressives try to claim. Over 800 people were charged with criminal acts that day. Still well below 1%.

I may have mis typed the coal post. It’s apx 34% of source. One third. According to statista.

Democrat Party” is a term used by conservatives

You may want to inform the Democrats then!
https://democrats.org
“We are the Democratic Party”

British spellings

Born and raised in Chicago. I use international English. What’s your point here.

The ACA would have been single payer instead of a compromise

It wouldn’t have passed at the time without compromise. As for your idea of nominee, Sanders had more party support. Clinton had more money and ties. Democrats as a block didn’t vote for Clinton as president,they voted against Trump. I remind you many Democrats screamed bloody murder over the borderline, if not criminal, acts that got Clinton in the top spot. I was a standard supporter.

He attempted to remain in power after losing an election in violation of his oath of office.

No, he did not. He challenged the election. He left office when Biden was sworn in of his own accord.

repetition of right wing talking points

Ie what? Literally 99% of my daily (political) news comes from the NYT; one of the oldest and most respected news companies in the country. That I disagree on some things doesn’t make me any more left or right. If you think I’m to one side or the other, maybe I am. For that particular topic.
On some issues I’m far left, on some far right. And for many, I simply don’t care or consider it unimportant.
You can go back and see my links I posted when asked to take compass tests.

But here’s the most recent:
PC called me libertarian
https://www.politicalcompass.org/pdfcertificate?pname=Lostinlodos&ec=-1.63&soc=-5.95

Pew calls me “Ambivalent right”; Fiscally conservative and Socially liberal.

Idr puts me liberal left and not far from the policies of Obama (whose campaigns I was a volunteer for). More liberal but not as “left”.

Mapmy called me “Based on your quiz answers, you are a Social Libertarian. In addition, you are a Military Dove, Environmentally Protective and a Strong Deficit Hawk.

In other words, I’m more worried about life today and tomorrow, than 500 years from now. I’m more worried about my immediate surroundings than life on the other side of the country. I care more for those I know than those I don’t. And I believe you have the right to your own thoughts and beliefs.
Unlike progressives I fully understand the reality that generally beating someone over the head doesn’t change their view, it makes them angry. You can’t force change or acceptance. You need to guide it.

Many users here are clearly now now now type activists. That doesn’t work in the real world.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

GPL is reciprocal. You can’t create anything new from it under a different license. Meaning both commercial, and truly free, licenses are not usable.

And again, this has nothing to do with anything we’re talking about. I haven’t stated a position on the GPL at all. You’re arguing about completely unrelated topics here.

there was a protest rally on the grounds of the capital building following the rally that was 100% legal.

Except the building wasn’t the only off limits location. The grounds outside the building were as well. And significantly more people trespassed on the grounds.

Some defendants have been convicted of trespassing on the grounds who did not enter the building.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/official-found-guilty-of-illegally-entering-capitol-grounds-on-jan-6

Less than 200 broke into the building.

Over 1100 people have been arrested for crimes committed that day, so clearly other people broke the law who weren’t in the building.

But again, you’re using slippery logic here. You’re saying everyone who committed a crime that day has been prosecuted (which I easily proved false) and therefore the standing number of prosecutions corresponds to the number of people who committed crimes. But that’s ignoring that there are thousands who were there who have not been identified. There are some who will never be identified. There are many who committed crimes who will never be prosecuted. That doesn’t mean they didn’t commit crimes. Getting away with it doesn’t mean a crime wasn’t committed.

A few hundred more were allowed in by police.

Police choosing not to fight a mob isn’t the mob being allowed in. It’s the police deciding to save lives by not attempting something they were underpowered to do. It’s still trespassing even if you show up in a mob and the security decides not to fight a losing battle that could cost lives. Their unauthorized presence, regardless of whether a cop was there to stop them or let them pass, is what what makes it a violation of law.

That’s less than 1%. Math isn’t your forte is it.

I’m great at math. You’re really bad at lying and using false premises for your calculations.

I may have mis typed the coal post. It’s apx 34% of source. One third. According to statista.

That is the first time you’ve admitted to a mistake. Good on you. First steps.

“We are the Democratic Party”

Um…Do you see that they called themselves the Democratic Party in your quote?

But since you like the NY Times: https://www.nytimes.com/1976/09/05/archives/sunday-observer-dumbness-idea.html

Born and raised in Chicago. I use international English. What’s your point here.

It’s just weird for an American who lives in the US to not use American English.

It wouldn’t have passed at the time without compromise.

That’s exactly what I’m saying! Even though the Democrats had a majority, 34 of them voted against it in the House. Even the compromise barely passed the House 219-212. That’s not nearly as dominated by progressives as you’re claiming.

I was a Sanders supporter.

Ah, the mythical unicorn or the misguided fool who switched from Bernie to Trump. If you at all supported Sanders’ ideals, then you couldn’t support Trump, short of a head injury or deep hypocrisy.

No, he did not. He challenged the election. He left office when Biden was sworn in of his own accord.

He did challenge the election in lawsuits that failed. And then he left office after having failed in his attempt to overturn the results of the election in order to stay in power. Failing doesn’t mean he didn’t attempt it.

Ie what? Literally 99% of my daily (political) news comes from the NYT; one of the oldest and most respected news companies in the country. That I disagree on some things doesn’t make me any more left or right. If you think I’m to one side or the other, maybe I am. For that particular topic.

Your support for leftist topics are inconsistent at best and not backed up by your other, contradictory claims and falsehoods. You repeat right wing talking points that are verifiably false. You use denigrating language for poor people and bootlick corporations. You also said you were a libertarian who despises progressivism, even though you don’t seem to understand what progressivism is and you generalize that the Democrats are more progressive than they actually are. You claim to support a flat tax with social programs, but that’s not a flat tax and the social programs are a progressive concept not supported by right wing libertarians.

In other words, I’m more worried about life today and tomorrow, than 500 years from now. I’m more worried about my immediate surroundings than life on the other side of the country. I care more for those I know than those I don’t.

Those you care about are affected by the lives of those you don’t. Tomorrow’s crises are born from today’s ignorance and negligence. Your immediate surroundings are subject to changes that started in other places.

This head in the sand egocentric approach is counterproductive to what you claim to want to protect and support. You’re locking the engineer out of your bomb shelter and then you’ll be screwed when the air filtration system stops working and you don’t know how to fix it yourself. But hey, you didn’t know that guy, so you’re not responsible for helping him!

And I believe you have the right to your own thoughts and beliefs.

You’re not going to get kudos for stating the most basic tenant of free speech. That’s the minimum.

Many users here are clearly now now now type activists. That doesn’t work in the real world.

Voting works. And convincing voters that your ideas are not just hypocritical, but factually, provably wrong is a good start to making sure voters are well informed.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Some defendants have been convicted of trespassing on the grounds who did not enter the building

Yes, they passed the barricades and thus were trespassing. The land outside the barricades was not disallowed that day.

Their unauthorized presence

Capital police allowed them in. This they were legally allowed in. The discussion in law ends there. They were allowed entry by persons authorised to allow entry.

You’re really bad at lying and using false premises for your calculations

I separate emotional want from legal fact. You want there to be more crimes than occurred so stretch the narrative to include non-crimes as bad actors.

Democratic Party in your quote
Yes, that’s what I quoted. I’m missing something?

It’s just weird for an American who lives in the US to not use American English

Much of the family is from Europe. Most of my acquaintances are there or Asia. It’s simply more common for my usage and most of those here I converse with never complain. The U.S. is a strange outlier in the modification of the language.

34 of them voted against it in the House.

Many of who are on record being against the compromise.

, the mythical unicorn or the misguided fool who switched from Bernie to Trump

I’m not a party partisan. I vote for the person with the most beliefs I care about. Even if I strongly disagree on other issues.

Failing doesn’t mean he didn’t attempt it.

He went through the proper legal process to challenge the election results. Then left. There’s nothing illegal there.

You repeat right wing talking points that are verifiably false

You’ll need to elaborate there.
“denigrating language for poor people”
Where, Etc

even though you don’t seem to understand what progressivism

Progressives attempt to rip down the rich, rather than bring up the poor. The push long failed tax ideas that create circular economic inequality. They seek a top down ruling elite that dictate to the masses in a two class society: the rulers and the people. And hide it under utopian ideals. All while pushing a forced rather than adapted acceptance of their ideas.

You claim to support a flat tax with social programs, but that’s not a flat tax

I support an end to pointless foreign spending. Which would drastically change the budget.
I support a social base for every citizen funded with that new budgetary surplus. And maintained with a flat tax of 10% on earnings above that base rate.

It’s called a “social base” a socialist base for capitalism. Rather than a limit (cap), you create a starting point. That’s the opposite of the progressive mindset.

That’s the minimum

Not according to many on both the left and the right who denigrate speech they disagree with and look to ban the speech and the individual from society.

Voting works

Has nothing to do with what you are quoting.
You can not force compliance. It does not work. It never has and never will. 12000 years of modern-ish human history shows the collapse of any society that forces.

Gradual chipping away at ingrained beliefs takes longer, but gets eventual willing compliance. Force creates a large resistance.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

Yes, they passed the barricades and thus were trespassing. The land outside the barricades was not disallowed that day.

You’re pivoting. This statement contradicts your earlier statement:

there was a protest rally on the grounds of the capital building following the rally that was 100% legal.

Which is it?

Capital police allowed them in. This they were legally allowed in. The discussion in law ends there.

Nope. People who “were allowed in” were still charged. The claim that they were allowed in was brought up at trial and the courts and juries didn’t accept it. You would know this if you’d research your claims.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210228213706/https://www.yahoo.com/gma/defense-dozens-capitol-rioters-law-100001636.html

I separate emotional want from legal fact. You want there to be more crimes than occurred so stretch the narrative to include non-crimes as bad actors.

Mass trespassing is mass crimes. There’s nothing emotional about making factual claims. A mob of people trespassed and interrupted a Congressional session.

Yes, that’s what I quoted. I’m missing something?

Yes, you earlier used “Democrat Party” a lot. I said it was “Democratic Party.” And you responded by saying I should tell the Democrats since they also call themselves the “Democratic Party.” Which doesn’t make sense since they call themselves what I said they’re properly called. Your statements were wrong until you quoted the Democratic Party’s website.

Many of who are on record being against the compromise.

So you’re admitting that those who voted for it were for the compromise… Again, not the progressive dominance you’d like to imagine.

I’m not a party partisan. I vote for the person with the most beliefs I care about. Even if I strongly disagree on other issues.

It’s not about parties. Sanders is left of most of the Democratic Party and had been an independent for most of his career. He has views that are strictly incompatible with Trump’s. Which means you don’t actually agree with one or both of them and your support is confused at best.

He went through the proper legal process to challenge the election results. Then left. There’s nothing illegal there.

You’re forgetting the “perfect phone call” and other attempts at (il)legal fuckery to try to delay certification, turn the decision over to conservative state legislatures, and…there was something else…oh yeah! The January 6th insurrection!

Progressives attempt to rip down the rich, rather than bring up the poor.

Like I said, you don’t understand progressivism. Progressives support social programs that “bring up the poor.” What you’re missing is that the poor are poor because of the wealthy and the imbalance of power. In some cases, it is a zero sum game in which you cannot improve the lives of the poor without diminishing the power of the wealthy. Because the wealthy benefit from poverty. They benefit from debt. They benefit from lower education levels that keep the poor from negotiately better salaries. They benefit from lack of affordable health insurance so that workers stay in shitty jobs for fear of losing their health insurance. They benefit from lobbying and campaign donations to make sure legislation is favorable to their business interests in a subversion of the democratic equality that the poor are supposed to experience in our political system, being equally represented by elected officials.

The wealthy are so intwined with the state of the poor that you see efforts to lift up the poor as ripping down the rich. They’re the ones who have placed themselves as the counter weight to the well-being of the poor. Or do you naively think infinite growth is always possible?

The push long failed tax ideas that create circular economic inequality.

You mean ones that have social programs like you’ve supposedly espoused?

They seek a top down ruling elite that dictate to the masses in a two class society: the rulers and the people.

Ha! Yes, the people who most support getting money out of politics, fair elections, no gerrymandering, greater wealth equality, and greater human rights recognition are the elitists trying to rule the poor.

And hide it under utopian ideals. All while pushing a forced rather than adapted acceptance of their ideas.

This is some great projection from conservatives. “Progressives are the real elitists! Show your support for “real America” by joining me in tearing down public education so you’re all uneducated idiots who support me because I say I want god back in government and schools! Don’t trust those dirty progressives who don’t want me to bankroll my campaign with corporate billions! They don’t believe in freedom, like the freedom to force twelve year olds to carry their rapist’s fetus to term! They don’t believe you have the right to impose your religious beliefs on others!”

I support a social base for every citizen funded with that new budgetary surplus. And maintained with a flat tax of 10% on earnings above that base rate.

Again, this isn’t a flat tax and people who support a flat tax won’t support universal basic income.

It’s called a “social base” a socialist base for capitalism. Rather than a limit (cap), you create a starting point. That’s the opposite of the progressive mindset.

What? You’re talking about universal basic income and that’s a cause most commonly championed by progressives.

https://progressive.org/op-eds/guaranteed-basic-income-mccabe-200807/

You are so damned confused about what you think a progressive is and what they think.

Has nothing to do with what you are quoting. You can not force compliance. It does not work. It never has and never will. 12000 years of modern-ish human history shows the collapse of any society that forces.

Sometimes change comes before acceptance. African American children were escorted to school by national guardsmen before they were able to just show up without someone standing in the way. Support for gay marriage continued to increase after Obergefell. You clearly don’t know enough to see how change has occurred in US history. Often times it requires a lawsuit and a court order (or hundreds even).

Gradual chipping away at ingrained beliefs takes longer, but gets eventual willing compliance. Force creates a large resistance.

Human rights aren’t subject to veto or approval by bigots. You can’t tell people to wait for their rights. Justice delayed is justice denied. This rhetoric of yours was said to African Americans during the civil rights era, but they continued to struggle and scored more wins. But fighting against bigotry is a never-ending battle. There will always be milquetoast privileged people such as yourself who are comfortable and don’t want to rush things like human rights and freedoms for others. As you’ve said, you’re only concerned about you and yours. Why should anyone care about you if there’s no reciprocation or empathy?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

I’m not pivoting, I’m clarifying to counter your inaccurate claim. You said the capital grounds were closed. They were not.

which is it

was a 100% legal protest rally on the grounds of the capital building following the rally. It was known, and planned for. Clearly inadequately.

You would know this if you’d research your claims.

Know, yes, agree, no. A, most took civil trespass agreements. B, more than one felony trespass conviction is being appealed.
You would be aware of this if you did some research.
https://www.newsweek.com/full-list-capitol-rioters-jailed-sentences-january-6-1826075

Your statements were wrong

Apparently I should be more careful in understanding what you are pushing. Ok. I see your point.

So you’re admitting that those who voted for it were for the compromise

Yes sensible people compromise regardless of core ideas. Being a progressive doesn’t mean you can’t compromise. Any more than some other hardliners in both parties.

Which means you don’t actually agree with one or both of them and your support is confused at best

Not confused, independent. Sanders had economic and social policies for our country that I mostly supported. Much like Obama trying to bring a social base. (Obama also ran supporting a strong border security system and advanced surveillance along it).

Trump backed a great reduction to international involvement, a targeted increase in national defence spending while greatly reducing international defence costs. And replacing the disastrous NAFTA. A border wall and surveillance.
My vote goes to the person with most agreement to my wishes. Be it a main party or third party.

perfect phone call

Which only goes to the democrat’s conspiracy if you make stuff up. The transcript is public. To me, “find the missing votes” means just that. And find they did, for Biden.
I believe he truly believes he won and fraud took away votes. His actions consistent with that.
Immoral? Probably an “abuse” of power and process. But I don’t think it’s illegal.

don’t understand progressivism

I dealt with them 2 years while working for the Obama campaigns. And they always bothered me. They are single minded now or hell thinkers. They target money because they don’t have it. You don’t need salary caps and wealth redistribution. You can have all they seek by cutting wasteful spending and redirecting the funds. Cutting foreign aid and spending it here. Not supporting others’ civil wars. Not paying bounties for actions that will never be abided by.

You mean ones that have social programs like you’ve supposedly espoused?

And not creating circular tax
Policy that does nothing to help and simply drives the cost of living up.

Taxing every penny above (a raised) cost of living at 10% with no further deductions would fund the same social services I support. Far better than ever-increasing sales taxes. Or lopsided taxing of just the 1%

This is some great projection from conservatives

Do you know what the difference between socialism and communism is, in practice? Socialism gives everyone a starting point that is liveable. Communism creates a class of controllers who force equality across the board. Always keeping a larger percentage for themselves.
Socialism allows everyone the opportunity to achieve. Communism eliminates advancement, dare it challenge the rule.
Income caps are a stepping stone to that. Ripping down the top is a stepping stone to not having a top. Once you put a roof on achieving you end the drive to achieve. You create a passive good-enough mentality rather than a do better drive.

Again, this isn’t a flat tax

You’re intentionally playing semantics. A flat tax is the application of a single tax across all. Having a minimum starting point doesn’t change the meaning. Clearly some people do support the idea of both, I clearly said I do.

that’s a cause most commonly championed by progressives

It’s simply a coincidental shared ideal. They also support income caps, “progressive taxes”, taxing an apparent but unusable “value”. Things I’m against.

Often times it requires a lawsuit and a court order

And an already existing general acceptance by a large portion of the populace. Both race and sexuality were already at a point of general (though not universal) acceptance or indifference.
Clearly I’m discussing the recent trans identity movement. And I’ll point out it took 100 years and many generations to age out bigots and reach the 99% acceptance of race.
The same to get to Obergefell, the vast majority already accepted gay love in general. (Those tests is mentioned, often include marriage. My response when available is always ‘the government has. On business certifying any type of marriage’).
This current set of generations will not accept them. If you pulled school integration in 1866 it would have turned out very different.
Obergefell in 1915 would have been a disaster.

Human rights aren’t subject to veto or approval by bigots

Unfortunately , yes they very much are. If the public whole is against something, the reality is no law will stop violence and hate.
Granting a right doesn’t solve the underlying issue. It doesn’t change bigotry. It doesn’t change feelings. And it doesn’t change society.

Pushing change is often needed. But remember force creates targeted, often violent, push back. Where waiting can reduce that.
There’s more to the topic than just lifestyle choices. And there’s more to the topic than just bigotry.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

You said the capital grounds were closed. They were not.

“On January 6, 2021, the exterior plaza of the U.S. Capitol was also closed to members of the public.”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/case-multi-defendant/file/1385566/download

was a 100% legal protest rally on the grounds of the capital building following the rally. It was known, and planned for. Clearly inadequately.

You keep talking about the rally that preceded the attack on the Capitol building as if the rally was at the Capitol building. The “peaceful rally” that was planned, permitted, and authorized was at the Ellipse 2 miles away.

“The report found that Women for America First, which organized a rally at the Ellipse about two miles from the Capitol on Jan. 6, “intentionally failed to disclose information” to the National Park Service “during the permitting process regarding a march to the U.S. Capitol.””

“According to the investigation, Women for America First, which is run by Amy and Kylie Jane Kremer, a conservative mother-and-daughter team, repeatedly told Park Service officials there would be no march to the Capitol while privately planning for one.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/18/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-rally-report.html

Know, yes, agree, no.

So you’re admitting that you just choose to disagree with evidence-supported factual statements because you don’t want to believe them. That makes anything you say completely useless.

A, most took civil trespass agreements.

So you’re agreeing that they trespassed…

B, more than one felony trespass conviction is being appealed.

Oh, well if it’s being appealed like many criminal defendants do then clearly it wasn’t trespassing…

You would be aware of this if you did some research.

Your citation doesn’t refute any of my statements.

Yes sensible people compromise regardless of core ideas. Being a progressive doesn’t mean you can’t compromise. Any more than some other hardliners in both parties.

And that supports my argument that the progressives didn’t dominate the party.

Which only goes to the democrat’s conspiracy if you make stuff up. The transcript is public.

Yes, I’ve read it. The only conspiracy was Trump’s attempt to overturn the election results.

To me, “find the missing votes” means just that. And find they did, for Biden.

You’ve shown an inclination to give bad actors the benefit of the doubt a lot. They had already investigated the issues he brought up and found them unfounded and had already certified the results over a month before the phone call.

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-certify-election-joe-biden-ea8f867d740f3d7d42d0a55c1aef9e69

I believe he truly believes he won and fraud took away votes. His actions consistent with that.

You’re ignoring (or ignorant of) the fact that true belief that he won is not a defense against efforts to overturn the election results. He could believe god ordained him president, but that’s not a legal means to coming to power. Motive is irrelevant here. He did break the law and violate his oath of office.

Also, he was told by experts multiple times before his efforts that he lost. He chose not to believe them. He was provided evidence that he lost and chose to ignore it.

Immoral? Probably an “abuse” of power and process. But I don’t think it’s illegal.

An abuse of power and process is illegal though. It’s a violation of his oath of office. It’s election fraud. It’s:

Conspiracy to defraud the United States, Conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, Obstruction of, and attempt to obstruct, an official proceeding , Conspiracy against rights, Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer, False statements and writings, Filing false documents, and Solicitation of violation of oath by public officer.

I dealt with them 2 years while working for the Obama campaigns.

So you had particular interactions with a few individuals and you are projecting that experience to a wide swath of people as if they are all the same, contrary to what you might discover about them if you didn’t assume your subjective experience was sufficient to draw all-inclusive conclusions about them.

Far better than ever-increasing sales taxes.

Progressives tend to be against sales taxes because they are regressive.

Or lopsided taxing of just the 1%

Wealth inequality is pretty lopsided.

Do you know what the difference between socialism and communism is, in practice?

Yes, neither of which have to do with anything we’re discussing.

Socialism gives everyone a starting point that is liveable.

That actually depends on which flavor of socialism you’re discussing. There’s a lot of nuance, but you’ve shown you have no time or understanding for nuance.

Communism creates a class of controllers who force equality across the board.

You do know progressives aren’t communists, right? You’re strawmaning again.

Socialism allows everyone the opportunity to achieve.

Again, this actually depend on which flavor of socialism you’re discussing.

You’re also confusing socialism with capitalist societies that have social programs, which aren’t the same thing.

You’re intentionally playing semantics.

Terminology is important when you’re using vague language or trying to reference existing concepts that others are familiar with. You’re also discussing really complicated and varied topics that you don’t seem to understand very well, so it’s important to clarify.

A flat tax is the application of a single tax across all. Having a minimum starting point doesn’t change the meaning.

Your use of the word all definitely contradicts the idea of having a minimum starting point there. That wouldn’t be a flat tax. That would be a two bracket tax system, which isn’t flat.

Also, it’s a terrible idea because it’s still regressive, even if it’s not as bad for the poor to whom it doesn’t apply. 10% of a person’s income who earns just enough to be taxed is still a deeper cut for them than 10% of a wealthy person’s income, much less for the wealthy person who technically doesn’t make an income because they use loans that don’t qualify as taxable income.

It’s simply a coincidental shared ideal. They also support income caps, “progressive taxes”, taxing an apparent but unusable “value”. Things I’m against.

Not all of them do. That’s a very broad generalization which makes it very useless.

And an already existing general acceptance by a large portion of the populace. Both race and sexuality were already at a point of general (though not universal) acceptance or indifference.

It was only at about 51% in 1957. It’s not even a question anymore.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/7867/reflections-trouble-little-rock.aspx

It was 60% for gay marriage when Obergefell was decided. It’s grown to 71% now.

It’s almost as if support increases after legal protections are extended…

Clearly I’m discussing the recent trans identity movement.

Recent? Using that word implies you don’t know much about it.

And I’ll point out it took 100 years and many generations to age out bigots and reach the 99% acceptance of race.

Yes, they aged out, meaning they died and never changed. Rights can’t wait for privileged bigots to die. Other people will die before them without their human rights being protected.

Unfortunately , yes they very much are. If the public whole is against something, the reality is no law will stop violence and hate.

There’s currently greater support for protecting transgender people from discrimination than there was for integration in 1957 or for Obergefell in 2015.

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2022/06/28/americans-complex-views-on-gender-identity-and-transgender-issues/

Granting a right doesn’t solve the underlying issue.

It provides legal protections. It creates obligations for courts and law enforcement and public agencies. It’s a step in the direction of solving the underlying issues.

It doesn’t change bigotry. It doesn’t change feelings.

That’s bigotry’s problem. You don’t deny recognizing the rights of human beings because some other more privileged human beings don’t like them. Well, you seem to want to because you’ve got yours, but I mean “you” as in moral people who value human rights.

And it doesn’t change society.

It does though. Support has increased for these topics after legal protections were provided.

Pushing change is often needed. But remember force creates targeted, often violent, push back. Where waiting can reduce that.

Sure, if we just push off justice for another 100 years, those current transgender people will all be dead and won’t need the change anymore! Great solution!

There’s more to the topic than just lifestyle choices.

There you go with the use of terminology that indicates your bias. Getting into photography is a lifestyle choice. Being transgender isn’t.

And there’s more to the topic than just bigotry.

There’s the need to recognize human rights and not submit to the blackmail of bigots who will threaten or even enact violence. They’ll be violent regardless of what you do because they’re bigoted, hateful people. Giving in to their whims and threats is giving them power they don’t deserve and cannot morally wield.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

So you’re admitting that you just choose to disagree with evidence-supported factual statements because you don’t want to believe them

Yes; the fact is many agreed to the lesser charge. Rather than fight charges they in court, which is costly.
And, multiple convictions are being appealed.

So you’re agreeing

That they accepted civil charges rather than pay to fight criminal charges.

clearly it wasn’t trespassing…

The appeals courts l will decide. The question is concerning the generally accepted legal doctrine that being granted access by someone legally o authorising to grant, or deny, access, overrides the closure.

You’ve shown an inclination to give

Anyone the benefit of the benefit of the doubt. That’s the way our legal system works, innocent until and unless proven guilty.

He did break the law and violate his oath of office.

I’ll wait till a court decides if he broke the law.

It’s election fraud

You and I have very different views on how thorough verification of the elections should be. If there is doubt it should’ve verified. I doubt you complained over the Bush investigations. I didn’t. Who wins is less important than protecting the vote.

You’re also confusing socialism with capitalist societies that have social programs, which aren’t the same thing.

Not at all. I support a socialist society with a capitalist economy. You supply the social base and allow all to achieve as well as they can, with nobody failing away.

You’re also discussing really complicated and varied topics that you don’t seem to understand very well, so it’s important to clarify.

A flat tax is a single tax applied equally to all. A single tax where that starts, be it 0 or $50.000 is implementation policy.

definitely contradicts the idea of having a minimum starting point

Again, you’re mixing concepts based on how some have chosen to implement them. A starting point does not change the flat, single, nature of the tax.

10% of a person’s income who earns just enough to be taxed is still a deeper cut

If you make $10 over the base you pay $1. The base is there to eliminate the strain you imagine.

because they use loans

Loans come with interest. Interest is taxed against the bank. Thus loans still produce the same amount of tax. It just moves it from the person to the company.

Not all of them do

Not all republicans are Christian. Not all democrats are atheist.but the numbers are high enough to make it a commonly accepted definer.

It’s almost as if support increases after legal protections are extended…

Yes, after the majority has already coalesced around the idea further acceptance is found in the future generations.

Recent

Means there was no mass push to redefine gender norms until very recently. Transgender in society dates back to at least the Egyptian dynasties and the Athenian empire. If not earlier. The difference now recently, the move to push them to different positions in society. A great plan, but you see the country isn’t ready.
I’m not against it, I’m against pushing people into a slaughter field for immediate political points.

It’s a step in the direction of solving the underlying issues.

Not when the underlying issues are Victorian prudishness and religious infestation.

That’s bigotry’s problem

You’re not helping anyone when you suddenly force a right and people get killed over it. I’ll need to read the survey you posted to see exactly what it says. But the acceptance of a man (majority believe gender is defined at birth) in a woman’s bathroom is far from majority. What you are pushing is going to be a long hostile violent change.

Being transgender isn’t

How you dress is a lifestyle choice. Which toilet you use is a lifestyle choice. Being pan is just the way I am. But I abide by some norms. I won’t put on a dress and walk into a women’s toilet at the mall and not expect backlash. The day will come when that is acceptable. Today it can get you killed.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

Yes; the fact is many agreed to the lesser charge. Rather than fight charges they in court, which is costly.
And, multiple convictions are being appealed.

Yes, it can be costly, especially when there’s proof you committed a crime because they recorded and livestreamed and took pictures and bragged on social media. Appeals don’t mean it didn’t happen. This also contradicts your later statement that you’ll wait for a court to decide. Courts have already decided these people are guilty and yet you’re still refusing to accept that they broke the law.

The appeals courts l will decide. The question is concerning the generally accepted legal doctrine that being granted access by someone legally o authorising to grant, or deny, access, overrides the closure.

They trespassed before they reached the officers. You can’t make it magically not be trespassing by overwhelming the officers who chose to save lives instead of fight an invading mob. That’s like saying holding a gun to someone’s head to force them to give you their wallet means they agreed to gift you their wallet. The crime occurred before they even got inside the building.

Anyone the benefit of the benefit of the doubt. That’s the way our legal system works, innocent until and unless proven guilty.

And yet you’ve denigrated Windows pirates as scum. Apparently the benefit of the doubt only extends to people who try to overturn elections in your mind.

I’ll wait till a court decides if he broke the law.

Except you aren’t waiting because you’ve already decided you don’t believe he did. You drew a conclusion and now you’re pretending you’re slow to judgment. If you were actually reserving judgment, you would have said something like, “I don’t have enough information to determine what I think on the matter,” but you affirmatively said you didn’t think he broke the law.

You and I have very different views on how thorough verification of the elections should be.

“Should be” is irrelevant. He broke existing laws, regardless of what you think those laws and processes should be.

Who wins is less important than protecting the vote.

Who wins will affect the ability of people to vote. If Trump wins another election, he’s going to disenfranchise more people. Conservatives getting elected in various states has led to significantly gerrymandered district maps that favor them. That you think the two aren’t related is concerning, but not surprising.

Not at all. I support a socialist society with a capitalist economy. You supply the social base and allow all to achieve as well as they can, with nobody failing away.

That’s called welfare capitalism or the Nordic model, not socialism. Socialism involves the collective owning the means of production. That’s not what you’re describing.

A flat tax is a single tax applied equally to all. A single tax where that starts, be it 0 or $50.000 is implementation policy.

That’s not “all” and that’s not a flat tax. If someone people are paying zero and others are paying more than zero, that’s not flat.

Again, you’re mixing concepts based on how some have chosen to implement them. A starting point does not change the flat, single, nature of the tax.

It literally does. 0% and 10% are not the same value. A sudden jump on a graph from 0 to 10 is not flat.

If you make $10 over the base you pay $1. The base is there to eliminate the strain you imagine.

Except that $1 is still a deeper cut than what the billionaire will be paying in taxes.

Not all republicans are Christian. Not all democrats are atheist.but the numbers are high enough to make it a commonly accepted definer.

And there’s another claim you should have researched before just randomly making it. More than half of self-identified Democrats are religious.

Yes, after the majority has already coalesced around the idea further acceptance is found in the future generations.

So then you support recognizing the rights of transgender people. Great!

Means there was no mass push to redefine gender norms until very recently.

It’s been brewing for decades.

I’m not against it, I’m against pushing people into a slaughter field for immediate political points.

That’s what the people opposing rights and targeting transgender people are doing, whether it’s bigots threatening them in society or conservatives targeting them in state legislatures. You’re describing violence as inevitable but not recognizing that the solution to that is to legally target those who are threatening or committing violence. Those people are breaking the law.

Not when the underlying issues are Victorian prudishness and religious infestation.

Yes, it is. You don’t reduce problems by giving bigots more power and showing them that threats and violence are effective means of scaring people from asserting their rights. You also can’t wait for them to get over their bigotry. Many never will and others who might have won’t be exposed to eye-opening new perspectives if you shy away from bringing it up.

You’re not helping anyone when you suddenly force a right and people get killed over it.

People are already getting killed. And it’s not forcing a right. It’s recognizing an existing right for the sake of upholding the Constitution and its values.

But the acceptance of a man (majority believe gender is defined at birth) in a woman’s bathroom is far from majority.

Poll: Majority support law allowing transgender people to use bathrooms that align with their identity

What you are pushing is going to be a long hostile violent change.

I haven’t actually made a specific proposal. I’m just pointing out how your insistence on slow change means people will live in a shadow and die without having their existing, current, necessary human rights recognized and protected. That’s an offense to all of us. Unless we’re all equally protected under the law, then none of us truly are. But again, you’ve got yours so it’s easy for you to sit at the top and tell others it’s not the right time for them to try to climb up.

How you dress is a lifestyle choice. Which toilet you use is a lifestyle choice.

No, those aren’t lifestyle choices.

I won’t put on a dress and walk into a women’s toilet at the mall and not expect backlash. The day will come when that is acceptable. Today it can get you killed.

Depends on where you live. But again, that doesn’t mean the threat of violence should keep the government from recognizing human rights.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:28

Windows pirates as scum

You state pirate, as a person who illegally runs a copy of commercial software,
As an admitted fact.
And as an admitted fact then yes, scum.
That’s different than, say: Someone who is in the grey area who purchases a legitimate key for $10 and gets caught up in some other action. And agrees to admit to civil fraud (a misdemeanour in most nursing) rather than fight a multi-thousand-dollar case.

decided you don’t believe he did

My belief based on the factual word of the law rest still open to interpretation, doesn’t matter. If a court finds Hong guilty and he remains as such after exhausting all appeals, then he is guilty in the eyes of the justice system.

He broke existing laws

No court has yet determined that.

disenfranchise more people

Because for decades the Democrats have stuffed their cups with cash rather than set up practical and reasonable law despite many times having a large majority.
A government financed national ID is the solution to voter fraud.

significantly gerrymandered district maps that favor them

… them slightly more than zero. No amount of redrawing maps will reduce the democrat lean if every major city in the country’s the presidential vote goes where the city decide. Regardless of maps.

Socialism involves the collective owning the means of production

That’s coop communism. Socialist governance is government owned and financed public service.
And again this is simply a divergence in which version of definition we use.

that’s not flat.

The tax remains flat. The system has on level.
The d you want to play on the words we simply state that social security is unearned income and thus not taxable now or later
If/because it doesn’t count as earnable income then the tax states at $1 earned. Meaning the entire population is taxed a FLAT rate of 10% on earned income.

How is 10 cents a deeper cut than 100 million. The cut is the same.

religious

And more than half are not actively practicing. Nearly every survey shows that.

Those people are breaking the law.

Those that break the law should be punished but intentionally pretending a law makes people safer is idiocy. And dangerous.

poll

Keep in mind pew response is more left than right. And you are intentionally ignoring the result. Saying you have the right is very different than saying you are safe to do so. Changing the law sets up a major violent confrontation across the country.

No, those aren’t lifestyle choices.

They are. One does not choose what they are attracted to. Man woman or clock.
You do choose what you want to wear. You choose (with states now being non-gender) which toilet you use.

One is a fact of nature found in every level of multicellular life. The other is a willing decision made by sentient beings.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:29

You state pirate, as a person who illegally runs a copy of commercial software,
As an admitted fact.
And as an admitted fact then yes, scum.

This contradicts your position that even people who take a plea deal despite evidence they broke the law are just fine, but you’re denigrating people who haven’t been found guilty of anything in a court of law. You are a hypocrite.

There’s also a significant difference between a person using software when they’re not authorized to use, at best depriving a billionaire corporation of a pittance, and a mob of people actively engaged in overturning the results of an election. But you carry water for the latter.

No court has yet determined that.

Courts don’t determine facts, they determine guilt or innocence based on how evidence and testimony is presented in court.

Because for decades the Democrats have stuffed their cups with cash rather than set up practical and reasonable law despite many times having a large majority.

Maybe the Democrats aren’t as progressive as you’ve previously claimed…? But yes, blame the Democrats for the Republicans’ gerrymandering. That’s hilarious.

A government financed national ID is the solution to voter fraud.

No, it wouldn’t. But also, a national ID is opposed by the Republicans (among others). Republicans want voter ID, but not a free national ID. Republicans are interested in disenfranchisement because they will lose more elections as their aging boomer base dies off and younger, more left-leaning generations start to vote more. You can suggest whatever you like, it doesn’t solve Republicans trying to disenfranchise people or delay certification of votes or remove masses of legitimate voters from the voter rolls.

… them slightly more than zero. No amount of redrawing maps will reduce the democrat lean if every major city in the country’s the presidential vote goes where the city decide. Regardless of maps.

Yeah, this statement clearly indicates you haven’t researched this topic much.

That’s coop communism.

No, that’s the most commonly used definition of socialism.

Socialist governance is government owned and financed public service.

That’s not socialist. By that argument, the government doing anything is socialism. Which, ironically, would put you in the same camp as many right wing libertarians who claim the same and want everything to be privatized.

And again this is simply a divergence in which version of definition we use.

You seem to default to right wing definitions and terminology a lot for being so independent.

The tax remains flat. The system has on level.

No, zero is a level. If you pay zero and I pay ten, it is not a flat rate.

The d you want to play on the words we simply state that social security is unearned income and thus not taxable now or later
If/because it doesn’t count as earnable income then the tax states at $1 earned. Meaning the entire population is taxed a FLAT rate of 10% on earned income.

That would only be federal. Social security is taxable in some states, so even a national tax as you’re proposing wouldn’t be equal depending on which state people live in. But you’re still not using the term flat tax in a way that people who primarily support flat taxes advocate. Which is fine, except you just sound uneducated on the topic you’re wasting a lot of time talking about.

How is 10 cents a deeper cut than 100 million. The cut is the same.

The guy who has a dollar losing 10 cents is hurt more than the guy who has a billion losing 100 million. Money makes money. The guy with 10 cents won’t have assets to borrow money against or a useful credit rating. The billionaire does. And you’re just talking income, which again, the billionaire will have an army of lawyers and accountants aiding him in minimizing his supposed income, so he won’t pay that tax rate on all his income.

But you’re imagining a fantasy scenario where there are no tax cheats because your perfect system gets implemented so you’re not going to see the flaws.

And more than half are not actively practicing. Nearly every survey shows that.

That’s not the same as being an atheist as you claimed. You’re pivoting again after getting called out for just assuming you know a fact.

Those that break the law should be punished but intentionally pretending a law makes people safer is idiocy. And dangerous.

By that argument, we shouldn’t have a law against murder because the law doesn’t stop people from committing murder. We don’t have precogs in our society. You’re arguing against recognizing existing human rights because people who are already vulnerable to hatred and violence will continue to be vulnerable to hatred and violence. That’s a terrible reason.

Keep in mind pew response is more left than right. And you are intentionally ignoring the result. Saying you have the right is very different than saying you are safe to do so. Changing the law sets up a major violent confrontation across the country.

The cause of the confrontation is the bigotry, not the law. This is another hypocritical stance of yours since you claim people are solely responsible for their own actions. Therefore, only the bigots and the violent people are responsible, not the changing of the law. Or does that only apply when you want it to?

They are. One does not choose what they are attracted to. Man woman or clock.

Identity isn’t entirely about attraction or sexuality, but that’s a very common conservative viewpoint.

You do choose what you want to wear.

Clothing isn’t a lifestyle (models and designers notwithstanding). You also don’t choose what bigots think of the clothing you choose to wear. Again, by your (hypocritical) logic, the issue comes from the bigots and they are solely responsible for it.

You choose (with states now being non-gender) which toilet you use.

You don’t necessarily choose what gender you identify with, so no, sometimes you don’t get to choose which toilet you use based on societal expectations or laws in states that require you to use the restroom that coincides with your assigned gender at birth.

One is a fact of nature found in every level of multicellular life. The other is a willing decision made by sentient beings.

You’re confusing sex and gender here.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:30

contradicts your position that even people who take a plea deal despite evidence they broke the law

No, it shows my sorrow that people with limited resources are forced to plea to lesser charges rather than fight in court a case they can’t afford, despite no evidence the actually broke the law.

Republicans want voter ID, but not a free national ID.

I’m aware of that. I want a national id at little or no cost, as most nations have. With a national ID that every citizen and legal resident has, asking for id then ends voter fraud.

remove masses of legitimate voters from the voter rolls.

Yes, the solution here is to take away the current roll system and replace it with a single scan database. They scan your id code when they hand you a ballot or vote card for the machine. A human verified the person, the machine locks a single vote.

Yeah, this statement clearly indicates you haven’t researched this topic much.

They may be able to change the house population, but not the senate or presidency.
This has more to do with state than national elections.
And again, my island comparison. I have an issue with a single house outvoting the rest of the island. I have a problem with the singly city outvoting the whole state.

By that argument, the government doing anything is socialism

Yes. But the The difference from CLs is I support a social base. Where I turn from progressives is I would cut spending that is not relevant to us, to use on us. Rather than raise taxes.

But you’re imagining a fantasy scenario where there are no tax cheats

A single filing system with no deductions makes the ability to cheat much smaller. It’s non-zero, but it’s infinitesimal.

The idea of stored wealth is a misnomer. Especially under a flat rate system. But also in the current method. Income is taxed. That income is used to purchase investment property. Any increase in value is also taxed in the current system. It would not be in a flat rate system, but a flat rate system would tax the earnings on the bank’s end.
I disagree with protecting loss. Investment is gambling, and loses should not be deductible.

after getting called out for

Using a generic term. Most branches call the non-practicing “lost”. They consider them non-members. I believe a better choice of term would have been non or irreligious. Most democrats are not religious. Most republicans are.

You’re arguing against recognizing existing human rights

Not exactly. I’m arguing against placing people in firing line for political points.

Therefore, only the bigots and the violent people are responsible, not the changing of the law

Im pointing out that this will take a targeted class of endangered people and place them directly into harm. I worry the law (right) creates more problems than it solves.

but that’s a very common conservative viewpoint

It’s a common viewpoint in general. Wanting to be the other gender, living as the other gender, is different than thinking you’re the other gender. There’s nothing wrong with being who you are. There’s a point where you step out of reality, though.

You’re confusing sex and gender here

No I’m not. I’m using accurate definitions. That a group of people want to modify the definition for their own usage doesn’t change how the rest of the world uses that definition. The words are synonymous. How you identify doesn’t change what you are.
That’s the biggest stumbling block for the movement.
Even people who agree with your rights to be yourself and your lifestyle choices, such as myself, get hung up when you start demanding changing meanings to accommodate a tiny percentage of the population. Even people within the community push back there.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:31

No, it shows my sorrow that people with limited resources are forced to plea to lesser charges rather than fight in court a case they can’t afford, despite no evidence the actually broke the law.

You’re generalizing and making assumptions a lot. Not everyone who got trespassed was poor. You’re stating a (false) factual statement that there was no evidence they actually broke the law. [citation needed]

I’m aware of that. I want a national id at little or no cost, as most nations have. With a national ID that every citizen and legal resident has, asking for id then ends voter fraud.

Good luck getting that with the way you vote. You might as well say you’re in favor of infinite free ice cream. Your ideals are meaningless if you don’t support them with action.

Yes, the solution here is to take away the current roll system and replace it with a single scan database. They scan your id code when they hand you a ballot or vote card for the machine. A human verified the person, the machine locks a single vote.

And when Republicans remove people from that database…?

They may be able to change the house population, but not the senate or presidency.
This has more to do with state than national elections.

And again, my island comparison. I have an issue with a single house outvoting the rest of the island. I have a problem with the singly city outvoting the whole state.

So you’re against democracy in which the majority of voters in a city outvote the fewer people out on mostly empty land. That’s ridiculous. As in, it is worthy of ridicule.

By that argument, the government doing anything is socialism
Yes.

No. It’s not.

A single filing system with no deductions makes the ability to cheat much smaller. It’s non-zero, but it’s infinitesimal.

Good luck getting that reform through Congress.

Using a generic term. Most branches call the non-practicing “lost”. They consider them non-members. I believe a better choice of term would have been non or irreligious. Most democrats are not religious. Most republicans are.

You’re just defending a bad generalization.

Not exactly. I’m arguing against placing people in firing line for political points.

It’s not for political points. It’s for their human rights. Only the bigots have made supporting human rights a political issue.

Im pointing out that this will take a targeted class of endangered people and place them directly into harm. I worry the law (right) creates more problems than it solves.

I appreciate that you’re not an elected official then. You’d be standing in the doorway of the school in 1957 saying, “I’m not sure now is the right time…”

It’s a common viewpoint in general. Wanting to be the other gender, living as the other gender, is different than thinking you’re the other gender. There’s nothing wrong with being who you are. There’s a point where you step out of reality, though.

Okay, and you’re a bigot. I would have guessed, but I appreciate you revealing it. Awesome.

No I’m not. I’m using accurate definitions.

No, you’re not. You’re using culture war political propaganda definitions. Academics haven’t used your definitions for decades now. You’re revealing your conservative bias again here.

That a group of people want to modify the definition for their own usage doesn’t change how the rest of the world uses that definition. The words are synonymous.
That’s the biggest stumbling block for the movement.

Thanks for cis-splaining the trans movement. That’s really helpful of you.

Even people who agree with your rights to be yourself and your lifestyle choices, such as myself,

You don’t agree if you don’t even understand what’s happening. You’re condescending to people you don’t understand.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:32

citation needed

Without court case there is no judgement of evidence.

Good luck getting that with the way you vote

Neither party is likely to ever institute a national ID for everyone. Not any time soon. Look at the mess of RealID.

And when Republicans remove people from that database

People should be removed when dead.

An island nation has 4 homes. 3 have families of 2. One has a family of 7. The family of 7 dictates to the majority of families by have the majority of people.
The House is supposed to balance against the Senate. And typically does. Redistricting rarely has any effect on the presidency. I’m not sure it has in my lifetime. You’re also being dishonest if you present Republican alone in redistricting performance. Both parties do so.

No. It’s not.

“Social services” be it a museum or healthcare.

Good luck getting that reform through Congress

Not as long as the rich are the only ones able to make it to Congress. See the Democrat attempts at campaign finance reforms. Reforms often struck out by their own party elites.

That’s really helpful of you.

Most of my friends and acquaintances, as myself, fall outside of “standard” lifestyles. Maybe the Coasters are simply more confrontational. There’s certainly evidence of that.
If I’m not welcome, I don’t force myself. If a member of our group is not welcome, we all go elsewhere.

Some places and people are accepting, some are accommodating, others are neither.
Legal protection does not equate to acceptance. Acceptance takes time and a change in attitude. Regardless of any law.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:33

Without court case there is no judgement of evidence.

That’s not the same as the evidence not existing. By that logic, people who commit murder and get away with it didn’t commit murder. Courts don’t determine what actually happened. Using the existence or lack of adjudication as a substitute for factual proof is weak. It’s also a lie because you’ve said Windows pirates are scum but you don’t know they actually pirated anything until prosecuted…by your logic at least.

People should be removed when dead.

And Republicans have an incentive to insist people have died who haven’t and remove them from the rolls, or pass laws that disenfranchise ex-convicts or close voting locations in areas that vote blue. Did you look at the fact checking of dead people supposedly voting that Trump supporters brought up?

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/08/tech/michigan-dead-voter-fact-debunking/index.html

An island nation has 4 homes.

Wait, wait, I know this one. One home has a goat, but you can’t leave the goat at home alone with the cabbage or the wolf.

3 have families of 2. One has a family of 7. The family of 7 dictates to the majority of families by have the majority of people.

People in cities aren’t one big family. Not everyone in a family votes the same way. Your analogy doesn’t work at scale. And even if it did work that way, the opposite would be that a minority would rule over the majority.

And your analogy is also the wrong proportion. You made it 7 to 6, but 80%+ of the US population is urban. So it’s more like 8 to 2 and the 2 don’t have a right to dictate how the 8 should live just because they chose to live out in a rural area with wide swaths of land. That’s definitely not democratic.

You’re also being dishonest if you present Republican alone in redistricting performance. Both parties do so.

Yes, but Republicans have benefited from it most, most recently.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/briefing/republicans-gerrymandering.html

They’re also the ones attempting to undermine elections the most.

“Social services” be it a museum or healthcare.

Social is not socialist.

See the Democrat attempts at campaign finance reforms. Reforms often struck out by their own party elites.

Yes, because the Democrats are not as progressive as you seem to think.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:34

didn’t commit murder

By law, they did not.

pirate

“And as an admitted fact then yes, scum.”
You call protesters insurrectionists even though there is no evidence that any more than a tiny percentage of those protesters committed any crime I call admitted pirates scum. See the difference?

And Republicans

A national database would fix that. Dead people vote every year. So do pets. And babies.

That’s definitely not democratic.

No more than the rules and ideas of a city (I’ve seen 92%+ more often than anything less) works in 92%+ of the nation.
But your democracy claim falls over a bit when you consider how explosive the city retorts are when sections of the state wish to jettison themselves from dictatorial control. See Jeffersonian, the a Washington-Oregon-Idaho debate, Chicago, New York City. These are all recent but it goes back through most of the Union’s existence. Some movements small, others large. WOI has very strong support and very well may end up a court issue.

They’re also the ones attempting to undermine elections the most [currently]

The party in power often attempts to redistrict. Both parties do it equally.

socialist

societas. Soci, person, as->ist, of the. Making societas roughly and of the people.
Socialism comes from socius. us meaning you in Latin. You people.

German and Russian commentaries under the term are very recent.
The governing supplying to the people is socialism. Soci en banc was a common issue in the early Roman Empire and the late republic. The welfare of the population. But it goes back much further. Greek citi states were two practice systems using a socialist base and a trade economy. Polis Let.

Government funding of anything for the people is socialism.
It’s a key aspect of all forms of government, including monarchy and dictatorship.

because the Democrats are not as progressive as you seem to think

You appear to have missed or forgot my long running commentary on how the party is fractured severely. There is a very large progressive wing in the party. Most of which are under 40. They barely coexist at the moment. But they are the largest and youngest faction and a clear likely direction of the party. Another 2016 game could divide the party permanently.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:35

By law, they did not.

And the law isn’t the determiner of the truth, so pretending no conviction means they didn’t do it is just silly. It’s also hypocritical because, as I have shown, you judge others for things you believe they do without evidence.

Victims of murder are still dead. The event still occurred.

Your logic is circular. You’re saying there’s no evidence they committed a crime because there was no criminal conviction, but they took a plea deal to prevent the trial, therefore they avoided the evidence being presented.

A national database would fix that. Dead people vote every year. So do pets. And babies.

Yes, fantasy solutions would solve everything.

But your democracy claim falls over a bit when you consider how explosive the city retorts are when sections of the state wish to jettison themselves from dictatorial control.

It’s not dictatorial control. It’s democracy. If people want to live in another state, they can move to another state.

WOI has very strong support and very well may end up a court issue.

Idaho doesn’t want Oregon’s poorest counties. It would be a net loss for them. There’s not a big enough population in those counties to boost their political power.

It also undermines your argument because there are people in eastern Oregon who don’t want to leave Oregon. You’re claiming that it’s dictatorial rule to override the will of the minority, then why would the people who don’t approve of separation have to go along? You’re arbitrarily setting the size of the group that’s allowed to rule by majority.

Both parties do it equally.

[citation needed]

societas. Soci, person, as->ist, of the. Making societas roughly and of the people.
Socialism comes from socius. us meaning you in Latin. You people.

-us doesn’t mean “you” in Latin. -us is a common nominative singular masculine ending in Latin. And the ending would change with a different declension. You clearly didn’t study Latin or linguistics in school.

Even if you weren’t terrible at researching etymology, etymology isn’t semantics. Language usage determines commonly understood meanings.

You’re using the term socialism in the way a right wing libertarian or a conservative uses the term and it’s typically meant in a pejorative. They’ve redefined it to mean anything the government does or anything the government does that isn’t giving more power to corporations and the wealthy.

So even if you’re thinking it’s positive, you’re not articulating yourself well. If everything a government does for the people is socialism, then the term is a useless modifier.

You appear to have missed or forgot my long running commentary on how the party is fractured severely. There is a very large progressive wing in the party.

“very large” is a useless quantifier. They’re not large enough to get single payer health coverage or codify reproductive rights or reform campaign finance.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:36

Yes, fantasy solutions would solve everything.

The vast majority of the technically advanced world has a national identification system in place. A good many less advanced societies do as well. The only fantasy is there being some good reason to both not issue identification, which shows quickly identifying data, and not use that identification for voting. National identification issuance requires a database.

It’s democracy. If people want to live in another state, they can move to another state.

If a large portion of the state wants to remove itself from the state, they have that right as well. It’s not surprising WHY these large cities are so quick to throw everything they can to stop such actions.

Idaho

Isn’t the state causing the delay. Idaho has welcomed the proposal. In fact, they offered to do so.
It’s a few counties in Oregon that are the delay in federal filing.
It is likely that an interior corridor agreement will be worked out. Giving the state of Oregon a panhandle.
They, however, are not the political and financial blockade. That comes from two cities. Neither in Idaho. Care to venture why?

… or linguistics in school

3 years in college. A year ap as well. Though Latin and Romance languages were not my focus.

Language usage determines commonly understood meanings

And you’re using a tightly narrowed trailering of relative recent use.

typically meant in a pejorative

The speaker uses the term as they see fit. In my case with glowing praise.

then the term is a useless modifier.

The word means what it means. The inclination is in the context of use. I support socialism as a base upon which capitalism allows those who can whilest insuring the security of all.
I will not shy away from the term. It is exactly what it is.

… is a useless quantifier

Assuming the party remains whole through another generation, there is little doubt the progressive populace will be the majority.

We have two parties on paper but we have four parties in practice. You only need to look at CNN or NYT to see party division on a generational line in the Democrats. Calls for a candidate other than Biden. Where the older Dems are all-in behind him.
And a quick look at the fact that republicans ran debates for a primary nominee shows a split in that party, though on values ideals rather than generational.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:37

The vast majority of the technically advanced world has a national identification system in place.

I’m not disputing the idea. I’m saying it’s a dream to get a good system in place with the amount of opposition there is to it. And even if it gets implemented, it will be created with compromises that the Republicans want. It’ll be used as a tool to disenfranchise rather than proof from it.

If a large portion of the state

It’s not a large portion of the state. It’s a bunch of mostly empty (mostly federal) land with a much smaller population than the Willamette Valley. The ballot measures were passed by as low as 7 votes (Wallowa County). The counties with the larger populations (Douglas and Josephine) voted no. The votes in Sherman and Wheeler Counties had less than a thousand votes cast. We’re talking around 5% of the Oregon population trying to take more than half the land area of the state.

wants to remove itself from the state, they have that right as well.

Technically, they don’t. That’s not a recognized right. It’s a possibility if all approving bodies do approve, but those bodies include the Oregon and Idaho legislatures and Congress. The Oregon legislature is not likely to sign off. Congress is also a hard sell.

It’s not surprising WHY these large cities are so quick to throw everything they can to stop such actions.

The response from western Oregon is derision for such a stupid idea and a shrug since the move requires too much approval from people who disagree with it. The supporters of the movement have admitted there’s a slim to none chance of it happening.

It’s also incredibly stupid because the movement’s proposed benefits aren’t necessarily true. They claim it would lead to an economic boost, but Idaho’s minimum wage is $7.25/hr vs $14.20/hr in Oregon. It’ll be a boost for business owners, not for workers.

Isn’t the state causing the delay. Idaho has welcomed the proposal. In fact, they offered to do so.

The conservatives that dominate the state legislature passed a non-binding measure to talk about it.

It is likely that an interior corridor agreement will be worked out. Giving the state of Oregon a panhandle.
They, however, are not the political and financial blockade. That comes from two cities. Neither in Idaho. Care to venture why?

Because it’s a waste of time. Your ignorance on this topic is really odd considering your strange interest in it.

3 years in college. A year ap as well. Though Latin and Romance languages were not my focus.

[insert Chidi’s You do get how that’s worse, right? meme here]

And you’re using a tightly narrowed trailering of relative recent use.

It’s not relatively recent. It’s been a common meaning for over a hundred years (https://www.jstor.org/stable/1814940?seq=1)) and prior. It’s also the most commonly used meaning regardless of whether it’s recent or not.

The speaker uses the term as they see fit. In my case with glowing praise.

And audience confusion. A speaker wanting to communicate well should consider how words are commonly used or else get used to people not understanding them.

The word means what it means. The inclination is in the context of use. I support socialism as a base upon which capitalism allows those who can whilest insuring the security of all.
I will not shy away from the term. It is exactly what it is.

Except that’s not how others commonly use the term, so you’re not communicating well. You can certainly choose to use whatever words you like, but don’t blame the audience for thinking you’re inarticulate or just ignorant when you start insisting that the word means something different than how it’s commonly used in the context of discussion.

Assuming the party remains whole through another generation, there is little doubt the progressive populace will be the majority.

And then it will be “very larger?” That’s still vague. If you can’t actually put a number or percentage to it, it just sounds like useless generalization and making shit up (as you’ve been prone to do).

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:38

It’ll be used as a tool to disenfranchise rather than proof from it.

Honestly I’m not sure who is against it more. The right because it would eliminate voter fraud, or the left because it would identify non-citizens and non-legal-residents (by not having ID).
But I don’t see how a federal id, supplied to all citizens and legal residents at no cost, could disenfranchise anyone.
As long as the bill is well written for verification qualifications.
The problem is more on the D side as in general, the idea of “papers please” is ghastly.

We’re talking around 5% of the Oregon population trying to take more than half the land area of the state.

I said state, not population.
Land held by the federal government, or the residents on it. You’re looking at urban areas maintaining tax revenue on the rural population that doesn’t have representation or power in legislation. Portland can literally do anything it wants with little backlash.
Same in the Washington urban districts.
It’s about maintaining revenue on people who see little or no benefit from what that revenue goes into.

Technically, they don’t.

I’m not going here. Post civil war history ignores overwhelming period evidence of the real causes of the war. And debating it with those that haven’t studied the actual evidence outside of a social studies book and what the they’re told, is pointless.
There is nothing in the constitution that forces a state to remain permanently attached to the union; or any portion of a state to remain as such or as part of the state.

They claim it would lead to an economic boost, but Idaho’s minimum wage is $7.25/hr vs $14.20/hr in Oregon

And here you show ignorance to value. In much of the country $7.25 an hour is well above poverty. Well into the middle class range. If have both friends and relatives that pay under $3 for premium fuel, a double cheeseburger at MCD is still $0.99, and a house on an acre of land is under $50k. Cost of living is relational to distance from the city.
That is exactly why I keep mentioning circular taxation causing artificial inflation while never solving the problem.

It’ll be a boost for business owners, not for workers.

Is completely inaccurate. See above. Everything costs less in Idaho. The companies sell the same items for less cost. You can’t sell a case of water for $10 when a mile away it’s $5. Border line aside.

Because it’s a waste of time.

Yes. It probably is. The residents are unable to vote themselves out of their near complete lack of representation because they… lack representation.

consider how words are commonly use

Didn’t you just say that’s how “conservatives” commonly use the word?
What I don’t understand is why “liberals” at so afraid of terms that are exactly what they embrace?
I support a wide deployment of socialism. As a means, not the end.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:39

But I don’t see…
As long as the bill is well written for verification qualifications.

So you do see…

I said state, not population.

Empty land doesn’t have a right to vote. You should be talking about population. And it’s not the entire population of the counties. Look at the ballot measure totals. It was often a difference of a few hundred votes. That could change in a few years with population fluctuations.

You’re looking at urban areas maintaining tax revenue on the rural population that doesn’t have representation or power in legislation.

Actually the counties in question are the poorest counties in the state that get a net tax benefit from being in the state. They get more taxes spent on them than collected from them (much like many of the red states that get federal tax welfare paid for by wealthier blue states). That’s literally one of the reasons on their website that they say western Oregonians should agree – because they would lose the tax burden.

“The average wage earner in northwestern Oregon spends $690 in taxes to subsidize southern and eastern Oregon every year, according to an economic analysis by independent economists.”

https://www.greateridaho.org/

And they have representation and power in the legislature to the proportion that they are in the state population, which is much smaller than elsewhere.

Portland can literally do anything it wants with little backlash.

Portland isn’t a monolith where everyone thinks the same, so your false dichotomy is not useful. There are conservatives and independents in Portland and the surrounding areas.

It’s about maintaining revenue on people who see little or no benefit from what that revenue goes into.

No, it’s not. They see a disproportionate benefit from taxes. They benefit from a higher minimum wage and better health care and no regressive sales tax. And then the question becomes, why would the rest of Idahoans want to subsidize a bunch of poor counties instead?

I’m not going here. Post civil war history ignores overwhelming period evidence of the real causes of the war.

Slavery. The cause of the war was slavery. There were other factors, but it’s literally the reason the CSA states gave for seceding. “It was about states’ rights!” Right to what? Oh, to own slaves… “But northerners were racist too!” It wasn’t all about the moral issue of slavery. It was also about the economic and political issues that arise between free and slave states.

And debating it with those that haven’t studied the actual evidence outside of a social studies book and what the they’re told, is pointless.

That you assume I didn’t take history courses in university is on you. But it does keep you from getting called out if you don’t decide to bring up a non sequitur that doesn’t really have to do with the topic at hand. You keep spinning out with bad examples that don’t explain why a minority should be allowed to rule over a majority. The Greater Idaho movement and the Civil War doesn’t justify minority rule. And democracy is working pretty well when it stops exploitative slave owners and racist bigots and selfish sociopaths from getting their way.

There is nothing in the constitution that forces a state to remain permanently attached to the union;

Correct. Though the move has to be done with the consent of other states according to Texas v White.

or any portion of a state to remain as such or as part of the state.

States lines can and have been redrawn, though not recently. But you said “portion of a state” when we’re talking about people who want to force their neighbors to change states with a simple majority and without the permission of the state and the federal government that own land in these counties.

If this is an actual recognized right without the need for approval from others, then you could likewise vote to be a single person microstate. What’s the smallest administrative size you think this amorphous right can be assigned to?

At a certain point it becomes an anarcho-capitalist micronational or sovereign citizen fantasy. Burbclaves are an awful idea.

And here you show ignorance to value.

Tu quoque.

In much of the country $7.25 an hour is well above poverty. Well into the middle class range.

The HHS 2023 poverty guidelines have $14,580 for a 1 person family. $7.25 times 40 hours a week times 52 weeks a year is $15,080. The minimum to be in the middle class is around $47k/yr.

If have both friends and relatives that pay under $3 for premium fuel, a double cheeseburger at MCD is still $0.99, and a house on an acre of land is under $50k. Cost of living is relational to distance from the city.

Good jobs are typically closer to cities. Cost of living is offset by higher pay if you can get it. This is easier for well-educated populations, which is something you don’t get with Republican state legislatures. Idaho is around 35th for education and their teacher pay is awful.

Is completely inaccurate. See above. Everything costs less in Idaho. The companies sell the same items for less cost. You can’t sell a case of water for $10 when a mile away it’s $5. Border line aside.

The cost of living isn’t 50% higher in Oregon than Idaho, so losing half your income but paying less than half less is a net loss. And that’s only talking about income. There’s a significant difference in state expenditures of taxes for social services (that you seem to think are a good idea…). The cost of living in some rural Oregon towns is lower than in some rural Idaho towns, so depending on the comparison, you’re getting really screwed with a switch. The differences in state taxes won’t make up for the loss of services or pay rates for poor people. The move primarily benefits wealthier land and business owners who would have lower state taxes.

Yes. It probably is. The residents are unable to vote themselves out of their near complete lack of representation because they… lack representation.

No, it’s a waste of time because their primary gripes are not being able to override the interests of a much larger group of people (which is undemocratic of them) and having to tolerate drug legalization that makes the state a lot of money that benefits them. They also mention “violations” of American values, which translates into whatever latest buzz word salad decrying critical race theory, wokeism, or whatever new term they’ll use as a catchall boogeyman next week.

Didn’t you just say that’s how “conservatives” commonly use the word?

Conservatives are prone to twisting words for propaganda purposes. They call things that aren’t socialism by the term in order to scare people away from social services and tax expenditures for the poor and middle class. They aren’t academics trying to understand the term or to communicate clearly. They’re intentionally trying to muddy its meaning. See also political correctness, critical race theory, wokeism, sharia law, the war on Christmas, etc.

Rufo admitted it:

““We’ve needed new language for these issues,” Rufo told me, when I first wrote to him, late in May. “ ‘Political correctness’ is a dated term and, more importantly, doesn’t apply anymore. It’s not that elites are enforcing a set of manners and cultural limits, they’re seeking to reengineer the foundation of human psychology and social institutions through the new politics of race, It’s much more invasive than mere ‘correctness,’ which is a mechanism of social control, but not the heart of what’s happening. The other frames are wrong, too: ‘cancel culture’ is a vacuous term and doesn’t translate into a political program; ‘woke’ is a good epithet, but it’s too broad, too terminal, too easily brushed aside. ‘Critical race theory’ is the perfect villain,” Rufo wrote.”

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-inquiry/how-a-conservative-activist-invented-the-conflict-over-critical-race-theory

What I don’t understand is why “liberals” at so afraid of terms that are exactly what they embrace?

Because they don’t embrace the meaning of socialist that most people and academics recognize, so why would they associate with it? Liberals aren’t socialists. They’re capitalists who believe in some tax funding of social programs. Actual socialists want the means of production to be owned collectively in some form, though the specifics will vary with the type of socialist, such as anarcho-syndicalists wanting guilds as worker collectives who collectively own their respective industry. Communists, specifically those that get called tankies a lot online and who often simp for North Korea and the CCP and the СССР, are authoritarian socialists who advocate for violence, military conquest, and favor a top down establishment of their ideology.

I support a wide deployment of socialism. As a means, not the end.

It doesn’t really matter what you support. It matters how you vote.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:40

Empty land doesn’t have a right to vote

People do. And you’re focusing still on one over many, many, cases. My guess is you live in Seattle or Portland.
People have a right to representation. Large cities eliminate the representation of the majority of the state.

Actually the counties in question

Could be, I’m more focused on Northern California, Illinois, and New York. Where the “poorest” populations, those with the highest unemployment and most public aid, the large cities, are the ones against division of the state.
Idaho happens to be the most recent with high publicity.

There are conservatives and independents in Portland and the surrounding areas.

Sure. There’s actual liberals too. But their voting ability is a fraction of the population, with no power. Which is why there is a want for leaving in the first place.

They see a disproportionate benefit from taxes

You have a fluke, if accurate. The majority of state
Spending in New York is in the New York metro area. The majority of Illinois’ spending is in cook county. The majority of California’s spending is in central west cities.
Yet the majority of funding comes from the rest of the state.

The cause of the war was slavery

It’s unfortunate so many people do not understand what caused to the war. The few remaining slave holders happened to be the richest people of the south, the funding the states would need. Like Delaware forcing “god” into the formation of the country.

The main factors in the cause of war were lopsided economic policy.
The war began with Lincoln’s literal insurrection. When he sent federal troops to raid a state munitions depot. Removing the state’s ability to defend itself against long problematic piracy. A problem the federal government long ignored.

It was also about the economic and political issues that arise between free and slave states

It was principally about economics between an industrial north and agrarian south. For over 20 years the northern government had eroded the ability of southern states’ commerce. Economic policy taxed the south but not the north.
Much like today, the population density created inefficient representation.

You keep spinning out with bad examples that don’t explain why a minority

Then minority has a natural right to leave. To throw off a government that doesn’t represent it. That has everything to do with the topic at hand. States looking to separate themselves from lack of representation.

texas v White

Is constitutionally lacking. The idea that the Constitution does not permit states to secede fails in that the constitution also does not prohibit it. Though that aspect was a side note to the case and not jd.
In that though, Texas is not an equivalent to cities leaving a state, either. In the case of Texas the state did not hold a state wide vote of free access to leave. Nor did they have legislative separation as most southern states had.
Thus the court is accurate in that Texas was under a military occupation, not a new independent nation.
In the case of states looking to separate from cities (most of these independence movements) the constitution does not allow or prohibit. If the majority of the state population that is looking to leave votes to leave, the constitution remains silent.
The questions then become which party remains a state, if either, and what becomes of the independent territory.

then you could likewise vote to be a single person microstate

Sovereign citizenship remains an issue to someday be fully tested at the Supreme Court. One the court has continually passed on for obvious reasons: there is far more in that issue than just a SC. Straw man, dual person, personal corporate entity… ! Most of it crap, but crap that needs to be dealt with eventually.
But sovereignty is a recognised principle in international law. Renouncing your citizenship makes you stateless. I remind you such cases of actual, legal, sovereign citizens have come up in this country. Again, the SCOTUS tends to deflect.

The HHS 2023 poverty guidelines have $14,580 for a 1 person family

Making 7.25 above poverty.
But this is a national average. When you jettison the top 4 most expensive states that number drops significantly.

I should have placed a paragraph less cost and you can’t .
A case of 18 bottles of water costs 9.99 in Chicago.
It’s 5.58 at the same store 12 miles away across the county line.
The exact same thing exists in New York.
And in the whole of the state of California; crossing the eastern border drops prices significantly.

You keep saying “Conservatives”. I suddenly understand your commentary on “progressive”.

My mother is a life long Republican diehard catholic. Yet supports federal education for all, and free healthcare. Guess grouping doesn’t work for either of us.
Socialism isn’t the boogeyman at all when you stop and explain what it is and does.
And that there’s more than the Democrats’ tax x3 method to achieving it.
But you again slip into the word play of socialism and communism. The principles are similarly but not identical. But I’m not well enough read to sort out the differences.
I have no idea what “tankies” are but “and favor a top down establishment of their ideology” sounds a lot like the leadership of both our parties.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:41

People have a right to representation.

Correct, but not a right to overrepresentation. 5% doesn’t get to make decisions for the other 95%.

Large cities eliminate the representation of the majority of the state.

Large cities are the majority of the state. The people compose the state as far as representation is concerned.

Could be, I’m more focused on Northern California, Illinois, and New York.

You brought up the example.

Sure. There’s actual liberals too. But their voting ability is a fraction of the population, with no power.

Every voter is a single person-sized fraction of the population. They have power. They get to vote, not just for candidates but for ballot measures also. What they don’t get is to dictate to others simply because they disagree with how others vote.

Which is why there is a want for leaving in the first place.

They are free to move. They are free to vote for people who will represent them. They are free to propose ballot measures to change things that the elected officials won’t.

The main factors in the cause of war were lopsided economic policy.

Economic policy related to…? That’s right, an agrarian economy involving slavery!

The war began with Lincoln’s literal insurrection. When he sent federal troops to raid a state munitions depot. Removing the state’s ability to defend itself against long problematic piracy. A problem the federal government long ignored.

Huh, what? I can’t figure out what you’re referring to. It’s obviously not Fort Sumter since that was a federal military post since 1836. It can’t be the St. Louis Arsenal since that occurred after Fort Sumter and there wasn’t a lot of piracy on the Mississippi River as far as I know.

But whichever event and location you’re referring to is irrelevant anyway. Lincoln was only president for a few months before the war broke out and the CSA had alread seceded and war was already coming. The specific spark was inevitable, regardless of exactly when and where. The seeds of the civil war were sown for decades before.

It was principally about economics between an industrial north and agrarian south.

An agrarian south…that used slavery for a chunk of its labor. An agrarian south that eschewed industrialization because the wealthy business owners made millions from slavery, not just in labor but also trade.

Much like today, the population density created inefficient representation.

You can have inefficient representation regardless of the population density.

Then minority has a natural right to leave.

Yes, a right to physically leave. Not to take without consent, including the taking of land, the taking of resources, the taking of investments, and the taking of the rights of their neighbors to remain.

To throw off a government that doesn’t represent it.

Not really, not in the sense you’re implying. You’re starting to sound like a sovereign citizen making up fake rights so you can just say you don’t believe in the government, therefore laws don’t apply to you. Again, they are represented, proportional to their portion of the population. You’re implying people have a right to be a majority and they are not represented unless they are the majority, so you’ll just keep slicing off the minority forever until everyone magically gets to be the majority and be “represented.”

That has everything to do with the topic at hand. States looking to separate themselves from lack of representation.

18% of the population of a bunch of counties is not a state. I did the math. 18% of the population of the counties that approved a ballot measure to look into joining Idaho were responsible for a slight majority of votes. You’re saying that 18% of a population gets to decide for the other 82%. Yeah, that’s “representation.”

Is constitutionally lacking. The idea that the Constitution does not permit states to secede fails in that the constitution also does not prohibit it.

Take that to the SCOTUS if you want it adjudicated.

In the case of states looking to separate from cities (most of these independence movements)

They’re not states.

Sovereign citizenship remains an issue to someday be fully tested at the Supreme Court.

They haven’t taken it up because lower courts rightly dismiss it as magical thinking.

Making 7.25 above poverty.

For a 1 person family. About 70% of adults in the US are in a relationship or married. About 40% of US families have children under 18. You’re talking about a small percentage of people for whom the amount is slightly above the poverty level.

But this is a national average. When you jettison the top 4 most expensive states that number drops significantly.

Poor people live in average places too.

You keep saying “Conservatives”. I suddenly understand your commentary on “progressive”.

Considering you thought I was a FOSS Linux fan, I wouldn’t trust your assumptions.

My mother is a life long Republican diehard catholic. Yet supports federal education for all, and free healthcare. Guess grouping doesn’t work for either of us.

This is actually a common phenomenon. If you describe progressive and even socialist ideas in alternate terms, a lot of conservative and Republican voters will agree that they’re desirable concepts. But if you tell them that the ideas are championed by progressives or socialists or Democrats, they’re suddenly bad ideas.

If grouping doesn’t work for her as a life long Republican diehard, then you can see the problem with dealing with propagandized people who vote against their own interests. It’s like listening to all the pot smoking right wing libertarians complain that its blue states legalizing drugs. Watch out for the face-eating leopards.

Socialism isn’t the boogeyman at all when you stop and explain what it is and does.

Tell that to the news sources that conservative voters consume.

And that there’s more than the Democrats’ tax x3 method to achieving it.

Democrats aren’t socialists.

But you again slip into the word play of socialism and communism.

It’s not wordplay. It’s academic distinction. You studied history in college but never covered this?

The principles are similarly but not identical.

Communism is generally considered a form of socialism or a goal of socialism, depending on the source. More commonly due to the usage of the term by regimes like the CCP and the СССР, it has come to mean authoritarian dictatorship or oligarchy with a socialist economy.

I have no idea what “tankies” are but “and favor a top down establishment of their ideology” sounds a lot like the leadership of both our parties.

Top down establishment of their ideology actually means physical force and military conquest under the command of unquestionable leaders. It means taking your opposition out and shooting them. It means the leaders of the party are functionally absolute monarchs like Stalin who kill off anyone who opposes their ideas, whether by “disappearing,” pogroms, gulags, or radioactive tea.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:42

You brought up the example

Yes, as one of multiple. It happens to be the most current news thread on the idea.
There was much discussion a few years ago over California. When prominent dems and progressives made threats of the state leaving the union. In the opposite of the Idaho situation. With the coastal centre threatening to leave and the north and rest threatening to leave the state to remain in the union.
Chicago has been a 20+ year issue. Quiet nationally, but volatile. Towns refusing to pay into or be maintained by the county, referendums intentionally stalled, and on and on.
Ballot initiatives are easier in some states than others; and rarely are a matter of signature alone.

Sumter

Was a federal base but the munitions store was state owned and state controlled, and the contents state’s property. The very idea lost Lincoln his first choice to lead the army, in Lee.

An agrarian south

Whose primary trading was in Europe. And a northern controlled government that intentionally made that trade impossible. Taxes and duties and tariffs.

Slavery was a dying trend by the time of the war in the actual states. That it continued as long as it did was because it was more expensive to free them while the ‘owner’ was alive than in death. Yes, greed. We’re not exactly talking about any sort of morality here.
But in 1860 there were roughly 4m slaves in the country. The lowest percentage of population in the history of the country. The majority of them west of the Mississippi, not in the southern heart of the confederacy.

Yeah, that’s “representation.”

I’m saying 18% has the right to form their own state. Just like jettisoning San Andreas or Chicago or the city of New York.

Take that to the SCOTUS if you want it adjudicated.

We may, here. Illinois or California will likely be the case that gets there.

Poor people live in average places too

Is a misconception. What makes you poor in one place is not the same in another. Cost of living in cities is magnitudes higher in urban areas. 7.25 is poverty in all cities. It’s comfortably lower middle class in much of the country.
Cities have runaway inflation.

Tell that to the news sources that conservative voters consume

Unfortunately the two national cable news stations don’t do much to separate 8 hours of commentary from 16 hours of news. Neither CNN nor FNN are doing any service to the people with their night time propaganda editorial commentary.
I can’t stand 99% of evening chatter from either one. It’s all end of the world doom.
But doom sells. Happy rainbows make people go outside.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:43

Yes, as one of multiple.

It was the only one you mentioned until you pivoted after it was pointed out that it was a bad example and you didn’t have sufficient knowledge of the details.

Also, all of your examples are useless. None of them have a good chance of happening anytime soon without significant crises that represent greater issues than the mere desire of a small group of people to reorganize borders of local and state governments. It’s a cute what if scenario for alternate history writers to explore, but it’s not all that relevant.

Sumter
Was a federal base but the munitions store was state owned and state controlled, and the contents state’s property.

Your account of events regarding Fort Sumter is ahistorical. Buchanan was president when federal troops moved to Fort Sumter (and I’m seeing references that Anderson did so without orders). Buchanan made the decision to resupply the fort and the Citadel cadets fired on that ship. Then Lincoln was going to send resupply ships and notified the governor of South Carolina that he was going to do so. That was relayed to PGT Beauregard and then to Davis and Davis had Beauregard demand the surrender and to attack if not surrendered.

Lincoln never ordered a raid. I’m not finding any reference to it being a state munitions depot. It hadn’t even been completed yet and it had experienced downsizing of the military by Buchan. Why would the state store munitions at an incomplete federal military post out in the bay instead of a state post you don’t have to get in a ship to get to? I’m only finding references to the governor stating that he believed secession meant all military posts reverted to state ownership with nothing about munitions being stored there. And, most importantly, the South fired first.

And where the hell did you come up with the taking of Fort Sumter left South Carolina open to piracy, which was a problem the federal government was ignoring?

Not only would the incomplete and under-armed Fort Sumter inside Charleston Bay not do anything to prevent ships from falling prey to piracy outside the bay or along the coast, but the age of piracy was well over. And the eventual Union blockade of the south made piracy the least of their concerns.

And debating it with those that haven’t studied the actual evidence outside of a social studies book and what the they’re told, is pointless.

Were you talking about yourself as someone who hasn’t studied the actual evidence? It initially sounded like academic snobbery, but you’ve been provably wrong so often in very easily verified ways that it’s starting to come off more as a “fake news” Trump conspiracy theorist who thinks the truth is only available from three hour YouTube videos from a neckbeard hosting “The Real American Patriot News Blog Show.”

The very idea lost Lincoln his first choice to lead the army, in Lee.

I’ve read his memoirs. Lee’s explanation is that he couldn’t raise arms against Virginia because it was his home. Sumter wasn’t related to that.

“With all my devotion to the Union & the feeling of loyalty & duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.”

https://leefamilyarchive.org/9-family-papers/707-robert-e-lee-to-anne-kinloch-lee-marshall-1861-april-20

He reiterated the same point in different phrasing in multiple letters and accounts.

Slavery was a dying trend by the time of the war in the actual states.

It was dying so much that the South literally cited it as a reason to secede from the union.

But in 1860 there were roughly 4m slaves in the country. The lowest percentage of population in the history of the country. The majority of them west of the Mississippi, not in the southern heart of the confederacy.

You make that sound like it was a small amount, but that was a significant chunk of the 8 to 9 million person population of the South.

It also doesn’t change what the southerners themselves claimed was the cause of the secession and thus the war!

I’m saying 18% has the right to form their own state. Just like jettisoning San Andreas or Chicago or the city of New York.

Not really. They have the ability to petition for that to happen, but the state legislatures and the US Congress have the ability to decline it. And 18% don’t have the right to dictate to the other 82% that they have to suddenly be switched to another state. Do you not see that you’re being arbitrary as to whom you assign rights? 18% have a right to secede but 82% don’t have a right to stay? You really don’t understand rights or democracy at all.

We may, here. Illinois or California will likely be the case that gets there.

Good luck. Wake me from my nap at the robot care facility when that happens.

Is a misconception. What makes you poor in one place is not the same in another. Cost of living in cities is magnitudes higher in urban areas. 7.25 is poverty in all cities.

About 80% of the population lives in urban and suburban areas. When you talk about “much of the country” you’re talking about a lot of empty land with far fewer people. There are more people where it is poverty.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:44

I mentioned California Chicago and New York with Idaho. You are the first person I’ve come across here to even realise these issues are happening. I’m not pivoting; those that want to leave have a natural right to do so.
If such reformation is to be barred, we never would have formed as a nation in the first place, the colonies here were hardly a majority. That’s where the error in thought is: (almost) nobody is asking for the minority to rule, they are asking for a fair seat at the table.
As a side note to that, Illinois and New York have been at the tipping point for some time. It’s not what if, it’s when.

Lincoln

Became President in March. It was he that approved the assault, variably on the 9th or 10th, that began on the 12th. So you have a chain of criminal events that happened over apx 5 months. The final being an act of the president that lead to the war.

By the time Lincoln ordered the assault, the property was clearly entirely South Carolina’s by agreement. The state had been storing munitions there since 1814.

You confuse the idea of the ‘age of pirates’ and ship raiders in general.
Charles Gibbs was known to lead raids along the southern shores of the country well into the early 1800s. And piracy, the raiding of ships, was a sperodic but recurring issue in the south east well into the early 1900s.

lee

From as much as I have read of him, he made up his mind, in part at the least, before that letter, with the assault in Sumter.

“But from what we hear now, I expect we will see pretty soon the accounts of real war” from the 12th.
Lee was a man of principle.

It was dying so much that the South literally cited it as a reason to secede from the union.

About the same way Delaware got god into the Declaration. The Confederacy needed funding if the Union were to attack. The most wealthy, and likely source of funding, were slave holders. They were far and away a minority.

18% have a right to secede but 82% don’t have a right to stay

If Chicago wishes to remain Illinois, they could. They have the majority population. They do not have the right to force the majority of the state to be part of them.
If the residents of New York outside of the greater metro area wish to be freed from the city, the city has no right to force them to remain bound.

There are more people where it is poverty

And there is still no need for a national change. States set their own rates for wage. There is no need for $15, $20 an hour in Nebraska, Missouri, Montana, or even Idaho.

And here, “About 80% of the population lives in urban and suburban areas” I ask you, contemplate on why cities are so costly. Policy in the city does not work on a farm. It doesn’t often work well even in the suburban communities.

MrWilson (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:45

I mentioned California Chicago and New York with Idaho. You are the first person I’ve come across here to even realise these issues are happening. I’m not pivoting;

They’re “issues” in a nominal sense. They’re more accurately phenomena. There’s also the Cascadia movement. But these aren’t movements that have sufficient support from everyone to happen. One or two of them may happen in the future, but, as I said before, it’ll take a crisis that is bigger than just people wanting to have a different government in order to provide impetus for the move. I could see climate change causing some areas to become uninhabitable and possibly dividing two parts of a state and thereby making it relevant to have a separate government. Just people being unhappy with how their demographics play out in a state legislature isn’t enough to get over that hurdle. Demographics and political leanings of populations change over time.

those that want to leave have a natural right to do so.

Yes, but again, not to take and not to force others who don’t want to go.

If such reformation is to be barred,

It’s not barred. It’s just not well supported enough by all groups that have to approve. It’s a massive bureaucratic and financial shift. We don’t live on a continent with an open frontier where you can just move to a new spot and call it a territory or a state. You’re talking about taking land from an existing government.

(almost) nobody is asking for the minority to rule, they are asking for a fair seat at the table.

That’s exactly what conservatives in eastern Oregon are asking for. They’re a significantly small portion of the population and they’re acting like they should overrule the votes of the greater number of people in the state just because they disagree.

Became President in March. It was he that approved the assault, variably on the 9th or 10th, that began on the 12th.

WTF? I have asked time and again why you don’t simply google the talking points that you’re making for a quick fact check? At this point I have to conclude that it’s either intentional trolling or just confident incompetence to the point that nothing you say has any value because it’s not grounded in any reliable knowledge of history.

The assault that began on the 12th was PGT Beauregard commanding the southern forces to bombard Fort Sumter. Lincoln didn’t command the southern forces. He was the president of the United States, not the Confederate States. No union assault occurred on the 12th. The fort was already under union control, since back in December 1860 during Buchanan’s presidency when Major Anderson moved his command there because it was a more defensible position.

By the time Lincoln ordered the assault, the property was clearly entirely South Carolina’s by agreement.

No, it literally wasn’t. That was the disagreement that led to the South Carolina governor demanding it’s surrender. The state of South Carolina ceded ownership of the fort to the federal military in 1836. Buchanan was contacted by the South Carolina governor who demanded the fort be turned over to the state government. Buchanan refused and attempted to resupply the fort. That ship, the Star of the West, was fired on by shore batteries and turned around. Lincoln came into office and let the governor know he intended to send a resupply ship. Then Davis responded by having Beauregard demand surrender and then bombard it when Major Anderson refused.

The state had been storing munitions there since 1814.

Okay, first, construction on Fort Sumter didn’t start until 1829, so that would have been quite difficult. Second [citation needed]. I haven’t been able to find any reference to the idea that state munitions were stored at Fort Sumter. State militias have their own stores separate from federal military installations.

You confuse the idea of the ‘age of pirates’ and ship raiders in general.

No, I don’t. Piracy has existed throughout history, but the age of piracy was over by the civil war era on the east coast of the US. The rates of piracy were low enough that I can’t even find any references to it. Yet you claim it was such an issue that it was a threat to the state of South Carolina without any citation whatsoever. You’re just making shit up here.

Charles Gibbs was known to lead raids along the southern shores of the country well into the early 1800s.

Oh, well if a pirate who died 30 years before the war had previously been in that area, clearly that means… you don’t have a legitimate point.

And piracy, the raiding of ships, was a sperodic but recurring issue in the south east well into the early 1900s.

That’s a very generalized statement. You haven’t connected the dots. You would get an F on this essay in a history course. You haven’t established evidence that state munitions were stored at Fort Sumter. You haven’t established any evidence of an agreement that it belonged to South Carolina (and in fact the disagreement from the federal government is well documented). You haven’t established that there was any immediate or current threat of piracy to ships in Charleston bay, where Fort Sumter is located. You haven’t established that anyone in South Carolina was concerned about piracy or brought up such a topic in its beef with the federal government. You haven’t even established how Fort Sumter was going to protect against piracy considering that it was incomplete and had a reduced arsenal.

From as much as I have read of him, he made up his mind, in part at the least, before that letter, with the assault in Sumter.

[citation needed]

“But from what we hear now, I expect we will see pretty soon the accounts of real war” from the 12th.
Lee was a man of principle.

This doesn’t support your claim. You’d need a statement that shows that he already made up his mind. That he wrote a letter 8 days later that said he still hadn’t made up his mind further undermines your claim.

He didn’t even think the report was true on April 12th.

From the same letter:

“We were all startled a little while ago, by one of our friends coming in with a dispatch from Richmond, that the Southern troops had commenced firing at Sumpter [sic]; I expect however that it is false like the most of them.”

Lee did, however, disagree with the ease with which you think a secession should be possible:

“The framers of our Constitution never exhausted so much labor, wisdom, and forbearance in its formation, and surrounded it with so many guards and securities, if it was intended to be broken by every member of the Confederacy at will. It was intended for “perpetual union”, so expressed in the preamble, and for the establishment of a government, not a compact, which can only be dissolved by revolution, or the consent of all the people in convention assembled.”

https://loa-shared.s3.amazonaws.com/static/pdf/Lee_Evils_of_Anarchy.pdf

About the same way Delaware got god into the Declaration. The Confederacy needed funding if the Union were to attack. The most wealthy, and likely source of funding, were slave holders. They were far and away a minority.

Again [citation needed]. You just keep making random claims, seemingly based on bad memory of old studies…?

They do not have the right to force the majority of the state to be part of them.

The majority of the state does have the democratic ability to maintain the borders of the state.

If the residents of New York outside of the greater metro area wish to be freed from the city, the city has no right to force them to remain bound.

Your statement has no grounding in current law. You can claim the rest of the state residents have a right to free ice cream. That doesn’t make it functionally true.

And there is still no need for a national change. States set their own rates for wage. There is no need for $15, $20 an hour in Nebraska, Missouri, Montana, or even Idaho.

Sure, if you think people should be kept in poverty, there’s no reason to change things!

And here, “About 80% of the population lives in urban and suburban areas” I ask you, contemplate on why cities are so costly.

More people, more demand for resources, greater cost in providing those resources. More people and more construction/buildings and more cars also means more need for insurance since there’s higher likelihood of accidents with a greater concentration of these elements. There are any number of other factors as well that have been expounded upon by academics. I don’t need to contemplate it. There’s plenty of reading material. I covered a lot of this in college courses.

You should contemplate (or just google) why people live in urban areas. It’s where better paying jobs are. It’s where more services are available. It’s where social freedoms are often greater.

Policy in the city does not work on a farm. It doesn’t often work well even in the suburban communities.

Yeah, when rural people complain about how they get forced by the state legislature to not discriminate against LGBTQ folk, it’s just awful. They’re not allowed to ban books. They don’t get to deny accommodations. They have to pretend people who are different than them are actual human beings with rights. It’s so unfair!

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:40

It matters how you vote

I haven’t seen a good presidential candidate in my lifetime that would win. I’ll keep voting for the person with the most support for matters that are important to me, and/or against those with a majority of positions I disagree with. Be they main party or not.

Sanders was the best choice in a long time. Unfortunately the demon bent the system in every way to keep him from gaining any power.

There’s a good candidate running. She has my vote. She won’t win. But I’d be very surprised if she didn’t get a few electoral votes.

Once the trumpet vs puppet show ends, people will see there are alternatives, with real ideas and real possibilities.
As the two main parties splinter into chaos post 24 we may see a belated change in the system. We’re a little late but that roughly 100 year shift is due.

Kinetic Gothic says:

Re: Re: Re:13

As far as I can see, they’re both Class C federal felonies with a maximum penalty of 20 years and the sentances handed out for seditious conspiracy exceed the ones for obstructing an official proceding.

But cherry picking “obstruction” as the the worst of the events of J6 as, lets you handwave off the organized and premeditated violence committed by those groups of Trump’s followers.

Kinetic Gothic says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I still see no reason for creating two instant millionaires for doing nothing but being named by a media personality.

He did more than name them, he falsely accused them of criminal actos and in doing so he destroyed their public reputation, with a large segment of the population. that’s what he’s was sued for, to make their reputations whole, and to punish him for his actions.

The stalking and harassment are described in the case, not so much because they are the damage themselves but because they are evidence of how much damage Rudy did to their reputation. I.E. his lies have so lowered the public opinion of Ross and Freeman, that some fration of Trump followers now feel free to take actions against them that are outside the law, as if they had been declared outlaws in the traditional sense.

And frankly, because there will allways be -some- Trump cultists who refuse to accept the truth, the damage is in someway irreparable,

And based on his statements outside the court. among those Trump cultists who refuse to accept the truth, apparently is Rudy Gullianni

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