‘The Messenger’ Speed Runs The U.S. Journalism Implosion Cycle Thanks To Incompetent Billionaires And ‘Both Sides’ Clickbait Gibberish

from the whoops-a-daisy dept

Earlier this year a new journalism outlet named “The Messenger” launched to great fanfare. The brainchild of former The Hill owner Jimmy Finkelstein, the new news empire launched with $50 million in backing and a lot of chatter about how it was going to do things differently, with Finkelstein claiming he wanted to build “an alternative to a national news media” that “has come under the sway of partisan influences.” Finkelstein insisted there was a clear and simple path to having over 100 million readers monthly, which would have made it one of the biggest news sites online.

Right out of the gate there were signs of trouble. SEO bumbling resulted in a website that barely registered with search engines. And this new, supposedly “different” media operation immediately doubled down on the kind of aggregated clickbait journalism even though it was supposed to be above such engagement bait. All while its projected growth and revenue figures were derided as fantasy.

After months of grumbling by reporters and other employees, news has now emerged that the company is warning of impending financial collapse. At the same time, employees eye unionization as the outlet begins exploring using the kind of half-baked “AI” that’s been a clumsy disaster for outlets like CNET:

Meanwhile, with reporters already grousing about the reliance on “clickbait” journalism and aggregation to generate gobs of content, the newsroom was taken aback this month by the announcement that the site was partnering with Seekr, an AI company.

The Messenger currently ranks somewhere around #195 among U.S. news sites, roughly on par with some local Texas broadcast news stations.

The idea that the rich and out of touch gentleman behind The Hill — itself a longstanding purveyor of clickbait and timid journalism — was going to single-handedly change modern reporting was laughable. Especially given that this is a guy who seemingly didn’t learn much from the last decade of Trumpism.

Like so many rich media executives (see: Politico owner and CEO Mathias Döpfner), Finkelstein’s incapable of seeing most of the fatal flaws in modern U.S. journalism, whether it’s the inherent class, race and gender biases in most newsrooms, the steady erosion of trust caused by feckless “both sides” or “view from nowhere” reporting, or the underlying flaws with the ad-engagement models that now prop up — and violently derail — efforts to educate and inform the public.

Even then, the speed of The Messenger’s collapse has been fairly remarkable. Lauren Theisen at Defector puts it well:

The lesson of The Messenger, to me, is not the portentous signs surrounding its start, but the infuriating ways in which money congeals at the top of the media pyramid. That $50 million invested in The Messenger before it even launched could have been used to pay up front for over a decade of work from a modestly budgeted but still innovative and effective newsroom. Why do we instead have a media environment where a 74-year-old can take all that money for a blatantly unprofitable click farm dressed up in network-era drag? Who bought into this scheme, and how can we ensure that they never have any power to affect real people’s livelihoods again?

That $50 million could have gone a long, long way at any number of upstart outlets doing disruptive journalism on a shoestring budget (like say Techdirt, or perhaps 404 Media, an outlet built by journalists fleeing the Vice bankruptcy idiocy). U.S. journalism desperately needs aggressive, creative, young minds with new ideas for coverage and funding. Folks who understand that with a parade of authoritarian propagandists exploiting lazy journalism daily, that the hour for meaningful reform is getting late.

Instead, it’s an industry dominated by the kind of trust fund brunchlord fail upward types that tend to congeal at the top of the food chain courtesy of inherited wealth, not competency. The kind of folks who prefer “news simulacrum” as to avoid offending advertisers, sources, or event sponsors. The kind of folks that see AI not as an efficiency tool, but as a way to cut corners and attack already underpaid labor.

In other words, the very last people that should be spearheading any kind of meaningful journalistic revolution.

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Comments on “‘The Messenger’ Speed Runs The U.S. Journalism Implosion Cycle Thanks To Incompetent Billionaires And ‘Both Sides’ Clickbait Gibberish”

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Matthew M Bennett says:

I'm actually offended by this.

That $50 million could have gone a long, long way at any number of upstart outlets doing disruptive journalism on a shoestring budget (like say Techdirt, or perhaps 404 Media, an outlet built by journalists fleeing the Vice bankruptcy idiocy).

Techdirt doesn’t do ANY journalism. You write opinion articles, the vast majority of it shilling and providing FUD for gov conspiracies.

Everyone who worked at Vice was awful and should never have a job writing anything ever again.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Given how the woke and Muslim scum is marching all over Europe (except Hungary) and American college campuses in support of the Palestinian terrorists who raped, murdered, and kidnapped over 1400 Israelis, maybe deciding to support a single rapist is not such a terrible thing.

I’m still not prepared to vote for Republicans, because Biden fortunately had his head screwed on straight, and all the Democrats in the House except for the Hamas Squad as well. But it’s getting close.

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Evil Matthew Bennett Ramsey says:

Re: Re: Re:

I’m still not prepared to vote for Republicans, because Biden fortunately had his head screwed on straight, and all the Democrats in the House except for the Hamas Squad as well. But it’s getting close.

An understandable sentiment, but don’t deny yourself the opportunity to oppose degeneracy and defend Western civilization/culture at the ballot box. You don’t even have to tell anyone that you’re aligning against the woke & Muslim scum.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The problem is that so far, mainstream Republican degeneracy is worse than left-wing Democratic degeneracy. Idiot woke ideologues might force people to use the wrong pronouns, but mainstream Republicans are going to stop women (only!) from getting abortions. Idiot woke ideologues might insist that their voters are too stupid to get ID, but mainstream Republicans refused to certify Biden’s election. Idiot woke ideologues stopped nuclear power, but mainstream Republicans deny that climate change is even an issue.

The attack on Israel should be a wake-up call for everyone, but it probably won’t be. Kipling wrote in his poem, The Sons of Martha, “They do not preach that their God will rouse them a little before the nuts work loose.” And that is exactly what we are doing. Living in complacency. Neglecting maintenance. Being overconfident in technology. Playing stupid political games. Buying useless weapon systems for the sake of creating jobs and patronage instead of things that are useful for fighting wars. Teaching garbage in schools instead of facts and skills. Not stopping social and criminal deviants from ruining society for normal people.

Reality will not be deterred. Reality does not care for your hopes and wishes and beliefs. Kipling once again, in The Gods of the Copybook Headings –
With the Hopes that our World is built on
they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton;
they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses;
they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market
Who promised these beautiful things.

If you don’t secure your borders, if you don’t provide sufficient guards, if you rely on machines instead of people, if you don’t arm the populace, the terrorist scum will come and kill you, no matter how much you would rather not do the work. Kipling yet again, in A Pict Song –
No indeed! We are not strong,
But we know Peoples that are.
Yes, and we’ll guide them along,
To smash and destroy you in War!

Strawb (profile) says:

Re:

Techdirt doesn’t do ANY journalism. You write opinion articles

…he said in the comments section of a news article about the impending collapse of a news organisation.

the vast majority of it shilling and providing FUD for gov conspiracies.

…he said while also constantly claiming the existence of a government conspiracy to censor social media platforms.

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Matthew Bennett says:

Re: Re:

…he said in the comments section of a news article about the impending collapse of a news organisation.[sic]

None of those words mean what you apparently think they mean.

…he said while also constantly claiming the existence of a government conspiracy to censor social media platforms.

Yes. A very well documented conspiracy.

Did you not think conspiracies exist, or that government is often involved in them?

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

None of those words mean what you apparently think they mean.

Similar to your relationship to the word ‘journalism’, then.

Yes. A very well documented conspiracy.

If by “well documented”, you mean “exists purely in the mind of certain people”, then yes, absolutely.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Simple question

Did any governor change election law without legislation?
Did ballots wind up in parking lots, or trash cans, or the side of the road?
Did the state of Illinois and California close polling stations marked on original materials, without informing the public in writing?

The answer to all 3 is yes. If such crimes are allowed to go unpunished they can easily happen again.

The only reason you choose to ignore it is because it lends the most tiny grain of truth to Trump’s deranged claims. If Trump had won these changes would be top copy 24/7

Seven SZ says:

Speaking generally about *important* news

I’ve seen this news site posted many times on social media. Never once clicked on it because I trust so few “news” outlets and without any actual knowledge, categorized it as just another tla propaganda feeder site like politico/nytimes/cnn/faux/etc. Thus, a rant and for context, I am left of the Democratic Party – consider me an FDR/Danish/Pirate Party Left leaner.

Speaking generally about important news,
All right wing media is propaganda and completely devoid of any value to inform.
All MSM is 70% factual shaped for propagandist purposes; containing limited value to inform (NYTimes/WAPO WMDs etc).
Zero in the US who consume MSM content and believe it as factual, will ever be informed nor understand the big pictures. This requires legitimate books, deeper mental frameworks of legitimate knowledge, legitimate historic reference, and a functioning brain stem.

Speaking generally on social media (exTwit, Reddit, etc),
The right has gone completely insane, displaying severely truncated intelligence and cult behaviors.
Liberals used to be intelligent. Since 2016 and probably 2013, 80% of the liberals are not informed. They buy hook line and sinker any bullshit shoveled. Take any hot topic of the day and examine their uninformed/naive post on social media. You’ll find 70% plus have been mentally cucked by PR/nation state outputs. Thankfully, 10 to 30% of functioning liberals remain above the fray. But for the rest, uncomfortable facts are quickly burned at the stake and in their place, groupthink is injected by actors is accepted by the unsuspecting/ignorant with glee. With the advent of very effective propaganda, the break down of protective Federal laws (2013), and the completely useless “news” media, an America informed public is becoming a failure.

Being gleefully egged on by TLA sock puppet accounts, three of the most glaring examples in recent times is the way Julian, Edward, and Sy are currently treated by “liberals”. These three have gone out of their way to inform the US Public, and are currently treated as villains. Meanwhile, any random propaganda from any random corporation/nation state/tla is quickly consumed without thought. Truly troubling times for the U.S.

https://www.propublica.org/
https://fair.org/
https://www.cjr.org/
https://www.democracynow.org/

Extra credit, where good journalist go very wrong? Matt Taibbi was once one of the greats. What happened to him in the past few years, christ only knows. But the US is far worse for his demise.

Seven SZ says:

Re: Re: George Orwell

You can tell he’s a leftist from the rightwing dogwhistles

Twist my beliefs about the msm to fit a narrative, a classic social media mentality. It fits well here because this is exactly what my OP referenced, how 70% of of modern “liberals” decline to think logically, rationally, and critically.

So how about some facts about the msm?

First, calling out the msm is not a right wing dog whistle. All right wing and most of the msm have completely failed our democracy the past several decades. Phil Donahue’s show got canceled for him telling truths about Iraq. Chris Matthews claimed if Bernie Sanders became president, Bernie’s people would hunt his types down to behead them in Central Park – and Matthews was dead serious (and should have been hospitalized for 72 hours). The WAPO famously published 16 caustic articles about Bernie during the primaries, in one day. Another msnbc host claimed, “Bernie would be catastrophic for our company… err I meant to say country, for our country – we should vote for Trump instead”.

The NYTimes famously operated at Fox news efficiency with their propaganda that legitimized Bush invading Iraq. Meanwhile, smaller news wires correctly reported that Bush/Cheney/etc were spreading baseless propaganda in their push to invade. Though the American msm is truly awful, all right wing media is beyond hope, as I very clearly stated above.

https://fair.org/extra/wrong-on-iraq-not-everyone/

Second, the concept of groupthink originates from George Orwell, who was a Democratic Socialist, not a fox news host. If you know anything about him, Orwell was also not a fan of the msm. You would do well to read his non-fiction writings and especially his critiques, they will enlighten you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Donahue#MSNBC_program

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“70% of of modern “liberals” decline to think logically, rationally, and critically.”

Maybe .. but I doubt many of them think the earth is flat or the earth is only a few thousand years old, perhaps they also doubt space lasers started any forest fires anywhere.

I wonder what your data analysis says about the percentage of conservatives that think logically. This might indicate the veracity of said study.

Seven SZ says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Using flat earthers as an example to discount a point? Not cool.

I doubt many of them think the earth is flat or the earth is only a few thousand years old…

You used extreme examples. Just because most liberals wouldn’t believe those extreme, specific examples, doesn’t for a second negate what I wrote.

I wonder what your data analysis says about the percentage of conservatives.

First, I used the phrase, “Speaking generally about” because this is an armchair observation about news consumption on social media, not a scientific study. It might be 40% on some items, 90% on others. Sometimes the NYTimes is 100% accurate, other times not.

I also made my view of right wingers quite clear when I wrote,

All right wing media is propaganda and completely devoid of any value to inform.

And

The right has gone completely insane, displaying severely truncated intelligence and cult behaviors.

Spend some time in the “conservative” subredit, or study QAnon, or watch fox “news” cable, or chat with the average Trump voter. You’ll quickly find the GOP are not very rational.

Now, instead of using flat earthers as an example, let’s take an example from today’s reddit politics sub, which is mostly left to centrist leaning, with a few GOP interlopers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/17iwmdt/the_great_wealth_transfer_isnt_73_trillion_but/

https://web.archive.org/web/20230000000000*/fortune.com/2023/10/28/great-wealth-transfer-baby-boomers-bank-of-america-millennials-government-policy/

Read the article on wayback above, then read the comments on reddit. Many buy into the article and do not question its motives, correctness, its lack of context, nor who wrote the study. The article does not mention GOP tax cuts, bank bail outs, the Fed Discount Rate, CEO pay, wall street, the top 1% wealth gap, nor banks & insurance corps crashing the economy several times in the past few decades. The comments about this very language-loaded article is the sort of lack of reasoning of which I write (ei: “unlike those poor millennials – the only group that took on meaningful mortgage debt since 2021″).

Extra credit, note the comments which complain about how expensive education has become, then blame “boomers” instead of banks/GOP/Powell Memorandum/those in control/etc. This lack of understanding is especially sad since Joe Biden has been trying to give these kids education loan relief via loan forgiveness; which is being halted by interest groups. It is not an age group who is halting that forgiveness, it is primarily being done through the GOP. Yet, read the comments to see who is getting blamed.

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Primary media in the US is left leaning or progressive.. that’s just about all of it. You have MSNBC that is hard left, and Fox which is hard right.

CNN is desperately trying to shuffle itself back to the middle but has little chance of recovering half the population. They went all in on pro-Clinton nonsense and the damage is done.
On the other big cable station
Fox News was generally a centrist station with hard right and far right prime time commentator. But has killed off their honesty post 20 by forcing editorial content into their daily news. In essence they gave up on balance and became what they were accused of.

There is no free mass-public news in this country anymore. 4 broadcasts are beholden to the democrat party. And the fox stations pander to the local population.left or right.

That leaves small press and online news here. Sadly there’s not in-between the extremes from this country.

About the only way you get real news is to toss the editorials and read the NYT and the WSJ together. The only remaining large papers that still “try” to pretend to be neutral.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Primary media in the US is left leaning or progressive

No, they are all center-right. The Overton window has moved so fucking far right that anyone holding position slightly left of a centrist-position looks to you that they are raving leftists.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

That was one fucking asinine answer. Do you even realize how fucking stupid it is? It boggles the mind that anyone would say something like that, but it just proves that whatever media you consume has twisted your brain into a little pretzel.

Lets just run with what you said: Every time we use the word left-wing we actually mean center-right and when we use the word right-wing we actually mean extreme-fascist-right.

Since you have said you are somewhere between republican and democrat on the political spectrum (even though you never actually seriously criticize republicans while always demonizing democrats), that makes you in global terms an alt-righter since in “your terms” you are between far-right and center-right.

Ie, you can drop the whole “I’m not really a republican” – because by your own words and definitions you are one. Especially considering the whole thing with actually trying to redefine words for the political spectrum, because that’s the signature of someone who knows their whole argument is pure shit. I’ll await your sincere and honest redefinition of up and down next.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Primary media in the US is left leaning or progressive.

It, uh…it really isn’t. The most-watched cable news network in the country is Fox News, and if you’re going to tell me that Fox News is “left-leaning”, I’m going to call your doctor and ask them to have you committed for having a psychotic break. And that besides, most of the outlets you’d accuse of being “left-leaning” are more centrist-leaning-right than anything. No mainstream media outlet in the United States, whether in print or on the web or on television, is truly left-leaning because they’re all controlled by massive corporations⁠—and no megacorp has ever been left-leaning beyond token gestures of goodwill to keep PR disasters at bay. Or do you actually believe the New York Times gives a shit about trans people despite a documented series of news articles and op-eds that support anti-trans ideologies?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Again, America was never remotely left-leaning.

The closest the left (read: commies of the Soviet and Maoist persuasion) even managed to maintain a power bloc was in the 50-70s, and well, armed robbery does not endear you to anyone, as is actually trying to explode bombs in places.

Now, there’s only a few leftist intellectuals, and no actual Commies. Bernie is center-right at best.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Fox News used to lean right. Much like CNN used to lean left. Both had taken a hard push to the fringe in 2015 and both are trying to come back to the middle.
Unlike you, I support free speech. I don’t scream about editorial content to the company that’s hosts it. Until 2015 I never complained about CNN because the news and prime time talk was separate. Until 2018 I didn’t complain about FNC. Same reason.

i do not, have not, and will not, fault any company for allowing a voice.
I have always pointed out MSNBC which is nothing buy crying and yelling far left nonsense.

But that’s just two stations that do not have universal reach. Every home has broadcast.

Most outlets are very much left, because the hosting corporations are leaning left. They are not far left by any stretch, that’s the realm of MSNBC. But left they lean.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Unlike you, I support free speech.

Aren’t you the guy who supported⁠—and still supports!⁠—the former president and current presidential candidate(-to-be) who wanted to “open up the libel laws” so he could make suing his detractors for talking shit about him that much easier for him to do?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

And you think Matthews was wrong? Are you failing to see the woke filth parading through college campuses offering full-throated support for the Palestinian rapists, murderers, and kidnappers? Are you failing to see the BLM filth celebrating the massacre with paraglider posters? The utter depravity of wokeness is finally fully on display, its vile hatred of Jews bursting forth beyond any ability to hide it, not that they care to.

Wokeness is poison. Wokeness is death. That should have always been clear, but now it’s crystal. The woke despise Jews and want to see them slaughtered. I heartily return the favor.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The same “intelligent” liberals who continued to support Stalin after news of his murderous atrocities came out, back in the day?

Those sites you list are all busy celebrating the Palestinian terrorists who murdered 1,400 Israelis and desperately “reporting” stories designed to try to stop Israel’s retribution. The idea that the woke left is interested in truth is so laughable that it makes you look like one of the shills you claim to oppose.

The truth of what the woke left is has become plain to see since those Palestinian murderers had their lucky day. Screeching about “microaggressions” has been tabled. In its place is celebration of rape, murder, and kidnapping, and calling for more Jewish deaths.

Seven SZ says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Tai

I forgot all about Tay. She is still one of my fav MS techs to explain why MS will never be cool. Love that one headline that went something like, “Meet Tai, a Sex Crazed Neo-Nazi Teen Robot with Daddy Issues”.

btw, fair points everyone above & below; except of course the right wing guy (aka RWG – whose post fortunately got hidden). I don’t think I am wrong when I write that Tay displayed more intricate nuance of intelligence then RWG. RWG’s only gift in life is being a DeSantis parrot, to mimic nonsense about “woke this and microaggressions that”. RWG is an example of the generic RWer who fits the “Severely truncated intelligence and cult behavior” phrase. He’s not the worse, no where near it. AT least he tried to garner the artifice of a dialogue. Sad because it’s apparent that before RWG pressed even one keyboard key, he was consumed by his overly loud inner chatter; gifted to him by faux nooz/oan/AM Radio – his hypnotic daemons consuming all of his IQ.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Good thing Israel isn’t treating them as less than human, and hasn’t been in control of their lives for decades…

Ignoring that Israel is a giant ass chunk of the cause for the situation…

They are killing civilians, women, and children. Neither side here is “good” and anyone that kills innocent kids because they can is evil.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Israel is treating them as the humans they are – filthy scum who celebrate rape and murder and kidnapping by handing out candy to their children. They, and woke idiots like you, think the terrorists can hide behind their human shields and call for a ceasefire and parade their dead children so that Israel won’t kill them and they can rearm to try again. Leaving them alone worked once, until it didn’t. Now it’s Hiroshima time. Japan killed 2,400 Americans at Pearl Harbor. America killed 200,000 Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when Japan wouldn’t immediately surrender.

Arab despots and woke idiots like you feeding Palestinians the fantasy that they will ever take one inch of Israel by force is what gets them killed. Every attack by Israel on Gaza has been in response to terrorist incidents. If Palestinians want to make war, Palestinians will die.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Listen to your self. Think about it clearly.

You are saying it’s okay to stoop down to the level of terrorists. Doing so just shows that Israel is just as horibble and cruel as those they are fighting.

You also happily ignore that racist Israel treating them like the nazis treated them is exactly what created the situation. Israel took their land, then locked them in a giant land prison, then treated them like shit, then uses any excuse to commit war crimes.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You seem to believe that war is a game, and that nations are obligated to follow rules when attacked, about stooping to levels, about examining causes, and other such drivel. History does not come with an undo button, and there is no referee to stop the action when one side discovers that it has made unwise decisions whose consequences are coming due.

It doesn’t matter what the Palestinians think. If they choose to attack Israel, their terrorists will die, and the human shields they hide behind will die. It’s people like you, feeding their fantasies that they can ever gain one inch of Israel by force, that are leading them to throw themselves into the maelstrom from which they will not emerge.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It’s people like you, feeding their fantasies that they can ever gain one inch of Israel by force, that are leading them to throw themselves into the maelstrom from which they will not emerge.

And here I thought it was their religion and hatred for Israel that fed their fantasies. But I’m sure your excuses for their hatred soothes your fragile ego.

I should add what others have said, go join the IDF – I’m sure they could use someone like you if you weren’t such a coward.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Y’know, I used to be like you, thinking religion was inherently evil. Then I grew up.

Religion drives people to do things, that much is true. But you want to imply that religion only ever causes people to do horrible things. I know for a fact that such an assertion isn’t true because plenty of people use their religious beliefs as a foundation for doing good in this world⁠—and yes, that includes Christians in the United States. Or are you going to tell me that you think Martin Luther King, Jr. was evil because he was a devout Christian preacher?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

plenty of people use their religious beliefs as a foundation for doing good in this world⁠

As I aged I came to the understand that people could do good things despite their religious belief.
That people could be good despite their irrational beliefs. I have friends and acquaintances that are christian, Jewish, Hindu, muslim, Tao,
Your belief means nothing.
It’s when you use that belief to justify death. The Cold War was entirely a Christian crusade. The current war in Western Asia is based in religious hatred as much as stolen land.
But it’s a simple historical fact, god is the leading cause of death. It would take a major natural world breaking disaster to kill more humans than gods have.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You can keep talking all this shit about religion (some of which I’ll agree with!), but here’s the thing: You’re essentially implying that everyone in the entire world would be better off under a system of state-enforced atheism. Trying to make more than seven billion people to give up their individual religious and spiritual beliefs for the sake of “world peace” has about the same chances of working as, say, praying to stop gun violence in the United States.

I’m fine with calling out the issues of organized religious groups. I’m fine with calling out the ignorance of religious fundamentalists. But to say that religion is inherently evil, and to therefore suggest that any religious person is inherently evil, is so far beyond the pale that even I⁠—someone who has referred to the Catholic Church as an international crime syndicate!⁠—can’t follow you down that particular road to Hell. I mean, you’re asking me to condemn a man like MLK as evil only and specifically because he was a devoutly religious man. What the fuck, Lodos.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

There you go again, being an idiot.

Any time sometime tells you that something is false and wrong, whether it’s viewpoint-based censorship, belief that men can be women, or now, religion, you pretend that the people speaking the truth want to force other people into behaving correctly rather than just convincing them to behave correctly.

You must be very afraid that persuasion will work, whether it’s Musk buying Twitter, women’s sports banning men from playing, people laughing at “mostly peaceful” chyrons plastered over scenes of rioting, watching “misgendering is genocide” woke mobs marching in support of literal genocide, or the rise of the “nones” as they realize that religion is feeding them nonsense.

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Evil Matthew Bennett Ramsey says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Leaving them alone worked once, until it didn’t. Now it’s Hiroshima time. Japan killed 2,400 Americans at Pearl Harbor. America killed 200,000 Japanese in Hiroshima and Nagasaki when Japan wouldn’t immediately surrender.

I like your style, Sir. Please find me on Parler!

Seven SZ says:

Re: Re: How much you charging me for rent inside your skull?

How much you charging me for rent inside your skull? It is spacious in here and quite empty space inside. But please do something about the echos. You’ve created a lot of baseless factoid-like phrases that are not connected to reality. Over the years I have had many American Jewish friends who I count myself lucky to have had.

You also incorrectly categorize the reporting on those sites. I understand, analysis is hard and parsing facts from content is a skill that often escapes people on the right. This is what happens when you allow faux, oan, and sinclair to keep you entertained.

For the record, civilian death is abhorrent regardless if it is American, Jewish, or Arab civilian deaths. What you incorrectly categorize about those sites cited is, they are reporting on civilian deaths. I know, I know; reality is hard. Turn up your AM radio and drown it out.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

No. The notion that you can use the occurrence of civilian deaths to force Israel to not retaliate against those who attack them may be beloved by woke idiots, but it will not work. The terrorist soldiers of the government of those civilians launched an attack on Israel. Those terrorists will be killed, along with whomever they hide behind. If those civilians don’t want to die to Israel, they need to despose their own government. If they die trying, too bad. No country is obligated to ignore attacks across their border, regardless of who dies in the retaliation.

If you want to help the Palestinians, you need to get them to learn that they will never take one inch of Israel by force, and if they try, they will die.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Tell that also to Iran, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and, I dunno, everyone that knows how crazy Israel is, and how far Israel is willing to go to “safeguard” itself. Inclusive of the US, China AND Russia.

I’m sure the Saudis will listen to reason.

Oh wait. None of them don’t give a fuck about the Palestinians and Israelis, like you.

Bloof (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Nah, people called him out for being a sh+tbag and rather than apologised, he threw all the toys out of his pram, moving to side with people who have zero issues with horrible behavior and are willing to embrace anyone with name value. See Russel Brand’s lurch rightward coinciding with one of his victims going to his agency and fewer and fewer people wanting to work with him, James Woods, Roseanne Barr, Donald Trump…

Anonymous Coward says:

The saddest most screwed up part of this, is that people are about to get laid, fired, ect and will have to figure out how to feed their families.

The rich idiot who started this probably ended up millions of dollars richer and will have no backlash, no punishment for their absolute idiocy.

Only the regular people will pay the price.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The reason that this is capitalism is that the employees may lose their jobs, but they’re not going to lose any investments. If X fails, it is not the employees who will take the huge loss, it will be Elon Musk and whoever helped finance the deal. The woke idiots whining about capitalism want the same thing that the capitalists do – keep the profits, socialize the losses.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

the employees may lose their jobs, but they’re not going to lose any investments

Some of them will. They’ll have to cash in some of their investments to pay the bills while they look for a new job. Meanwhile, Elon will likely make off with at least an eight-figure golden parachute⁠—and even if he doesn’t, he’ll still be the world’s wealthiest exploiter of the working class individual.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You really are an idiot, aren’t you?

If a company fails, the owners of the company lose their investment in the company. The employees do not. They just stop getting paid by the failed company, and go find work elsewhere. They may have to spend from savings in the interval between jobs, but that spending has nothing to do with the company that failed. They have no investment in that company.

If the employees want to share in the fortunes of the company they work for, they should work for a publicly traded company and buy its stock. Then they have a chance to profit or a chance to lose depending on the fortunes of the company. They can be little capitalists too.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Cool, you are finally correct about something! That’s so rare!

Yes, employers and employees are engaged in voluntary relationships with each other. If the employees choose to negotiate collectively for more money and benefits, that’s fine.

The big problem with unions, which we see happening right now with teacher’s unions and government employee unions, is when employees are negotiating collectively for more money and benefits while the negotiators for the employer’s side have little skin in the game. The government officials who give in to the unions don’t much care; they are not investors in the government, they do not pay their employees from their own profits, they hold their jobs for only brief amounts of time, and the short term benefits to them override any sense of fiscal responsibility to the voters that some of them might feel. The presence of balanced budget amendments helps only a little; those get sidestepped by offering rich retirement benefits that will need to be paid for long after those who made the promises are gone.

Anon says:

When you're rich...

“Sir! Your son lst a million dollara last year gambling! How long can you allow this to continue??”

“Let’s see… about 160 years…”

Like exTwitter, or the Washington Post, many of these media startups or buying an established enterprise are vanity projects by someone who has more money than they do experience and knowledge on how to run a news business. They find out the hard way it’s a drain on their resources, a full time job to do it right, and not the great adventure in guiding the public, that Hollywood productions have made it seem to be.

At that point it dies the death of a thousand cuts, or meanders through lack of interest by the owner, or (where have we seen this?) capriocious and erratic decisions to change direction over and over.

The same AI that can’t drive my car down the highway without occasionally braking for no reason, certainly is not going to run a newsroom without doing similar incredibly useless things, or else missing the nuances when trying to apply profit-making behaviour.

Rich (profile) says:

“Both sides” journalism is a fantasy. Stories that claim to represent both sides almost always present the preferred viewpoint with carefully chosen words and phrases design to imbue a sense of authority, clarity, and accuracy. Then, more often that not, the other half of the “both sides” reporting is crafted from words an phrases that seem clouded, unsure, or just plain nutty. They might as well just say it outright, “Here are the facts of why this event is good for all humanity, and in the spirit of good ‘both sides’ writing, we crossed to the other side of the aisle to find out if recent events have shaken any braincells loose over at the old dunce farm, or are they still struggling with the challenges of trying to promote their nutty ideas about what is right or wrong with the world today… “

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Woke idiots apparently have this notion that was is supposed to be some sort of fair game. It’s not. The job of a war leader is to win as unfairly and lopsidedly as possible, valuing their own side infinitely more than the other. The Palestinians started this, and now they will die, unfairly and lopsidedly, including their atrocity-cheering “civilians” that their terrorists hide behind.

Since 1948, and even earlier, Arabs have thought that they could murder their way out of having a Jewish state in the Middle East. They will die trying.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

The job of a war leader is to win as unfairly and lopsidedly as possible, valuing their own side infinitely more than the other. The Palestinians started this, and now they will die, unfairly and lopsidedly, including their atrocity-cheering “civilians” that their terrorists hide behind.

Congratulations, you’re officially rooting for a genocide. How does it feel to be little better than a Nazi?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It feels good.

The Palestinians civilians in Gaza can try to get out of the way as best they’re able; Israel isn’t interested in killing civilians per se, but saving civilians is much less important than killing the terrorists who are hiding among them.

If you and they don’t like that, tell their terrorist friends to surrender unconditionally. If they do, no one else has to die.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

saving civilians is much less important than killing the terrorists who are hiding among them

This says a lot about you. None of it is good.

Civilian lives should always matter as much as, if not more than, achieving a military objective. When the idea of “civilian lives must always be nothing more than ‘collateral damage’ in a military conflict” becomes normalized, those who believe in that idea begin to see civilian lives as obstacles to be destroyed on the path to victory. Through that belief, the murder of anyone deemed an “enemy”, even if only for arbitrary reasons such as ethnicity, becomes justifiable.

I’m not here to celebrate Hamas; what they did was morally heinous and they deserve to answer for their actions. But I’m not going to celebrate the deaths of innocent Palestinians⁠—many of whom likely didn’t agree with the actions of Hamas⁠—because that could maybe result in the deaths of those who planned/carried out that Hamas attack.

I mean, you’re actively celebrating the deaths of children. Think about how fucked up you must be to sincerely believe that the murder of an innocent child, regardless of context, is a morally righteous act. You’re no better than the dipshit who tried to justify the creation, possession, and distribution of child porn: You can’t walk that shit back no matter how hard you try.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

There are no “rights” or “justifications” needed for actions of nations, because there is no higher authority that can dictate to nations what they may or may not do. Sovereign nations decide such things for themselves, taking into account costs and benefits of their actions, but generally not letting other nations dictate to them.

If Japan decides that they want to murder me and my child, that’s their business. I will not say that they do not have a right to do so, because such a thing does not exist. Just recently, for example, India murdered a Sikh activist, Hardeep Singh Nijjar, in Canada. Japan would have to weigh the adverse consequences of committing murder in a foreign nation over the dubious pleasure of seeing me dead, and make a choice.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It’s even worse than that I’d argue as using their own argument they just justified anything and everything Hamas has or might do, since according to them all that matters is winning and civilians are acceptable collateral damage.

Their mindset is not just no better than a WW2-era nazi they just defended and and provided justification for the actions of them and every group like them, past and present, including the one they want to condemn despite the group merely acting according to how they think war should be waged.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

You can screech “Nazi!” all you like, just like you screech “genocide!” when you are told that men can never be women. We just had a movie that earned a billion dollars about what happens when you make war on America and kill 2,400 people in a sneak attack – you get a pair of nuclear bombs that kill 200,000. Or what happens to countries that are involved in blowing up American skyscrapers.

Offer your own throat up to the murderers; you will not offer up ours. You woke idiots like to screech about how telling deluded people that they can never be the sex that they want to be makes them commit suicide. But you would have countries that you hate commit suicide by allowing their attackers to hide behind not-so-innocent innocents. That’s not going to happen. If you don’t want your favored scum to die, you need to get them to accept that any attack will be met with overwhelming response. Let the UN yammer about proportionality – the correct proportions are 100 to 1, or 1000 to 1.

Israel is never going to be loved by their murderous Arab neighbors. But they will damn well be feared.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

you would have countries that you hate commit suicide by allowing their attackers to hide behind not-so-innocent innocents

You would have innocent people⁠—people who don’t approve of terrorism, people who would never dream of supporting terrorists or committing an act of terrorism⁠—killed en masse to murder one terrorist.

By that logic, every time some right-wing whackjob goes on an AR-15 rampage and kills a handful of people, the government’s sole response should be to send the police/the military into the city where the shooting happened and kill a hundred times as many people as the shooter⁠—including children⁠—as a “warning” to the next mass shooter.

Look in the mirror, asshole: You are the terrorist.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Hey, so, when did I call for the murder of children as a solution to terrorism? Because you did that.

And remember when someone said child pornography⁠—which requires the rape of children to create⁠—was a “viewpoint” that social media should be required to protect? That was you, too.

If anyone is a terrorist, it’s the guy who tries to actively and sincerely justify the rape and/or murder of children. That guy is you.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

https://www.npr.org/2023/10/12/1204881032/hamas-israel-attack-palestinians

Following the 2021 Israeli-Gaza conflict, an opinion poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in the West Bank and Gaza Strip showed a dramatic surge in support for Hamas.

In the poll, 53% of the 1,200 Palestinians surveyed said they believed Hamas is “most deserving of representing and leading the Palestinian people.” By contrast, just 14% said the same of Fatah.

This notion of “poor innocent Palestinians” is a lie, and is being used to try to stave off the righteous fury that will descend upon them.

By my logic, when rioters, looters, and arsonists destroyed American cities because they could not stand to have a drug-addled criminal resisting arrest be killed by the police, the government should have responded with a massive police and national guard presence, and shot every single one of the criminal scum who were bent on destruction and who did not stop and allow themselves to be arrested.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

By my logic, when rioters, looters, and arsonists destroyed American cities because they could not stand to have a drug-addled criminal resisting arrest be killed by the police, the government should have responded with a massive police and national guard presence, and shot every single one of the criminal scum who were bent on destruction and who did not stop and allow themselves to be arrested.

I like the cut of your jib, Sir!

Violet Aubergine (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Half the people in Gaza are literally children because so many of their parents have been killed by Israel. You’re literally teaching them that murdering people to get what you want is acceptable if it’s done under the aegis of war because that’s what you’re saying the Israelis have a right to do. If they have a right to deploy murder of innocents to achieve their war goals so does Hamas and that’s some utterly stupid logic but I’m sure you’re going to tell me something blah, blah woke, blah, blah, gender, blah, blah, murder, blah, blah, child porn, blah, blah, incel, blah, blah nobody will touch my dick because I’m such a disgusting human being and it feels me with so much rage that I stupidly and impotently lash out at civilized society. Your side can only win in the long run if you employ violence, which is why you support it, because there is no logic behind your world view for governance beyond we deserve to have all the power by right of my cock and my pasty skin color.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

There are two million people in Gaza. There are a lot of children in Gaza because they’re having a lot of children, not because they’ve been murdered; all the wars in Gaza haven’t killed more than a few tens of thousands of Palestinians.

Every time Israel has attacked Gaza it has been in response to attacks coming from Gaza. If Palestinians want to be represented by people who attack Israel, then they will die in the retaliation.

You seem to think that war is a game, with “rights”, and maybe a referee to bamboozle. But it is not a game. If you think Palestinians are capable of learning that killing people in war is acceptable, perhaps you should hope that they also learn that trying to gain one inch of Israel by force is futile, and that they are being fed a fantasy by people who are using them for political advantage.

Oh, and by the way, speaking of fantasies and penises, men can never be women regardless of the color of their skin. Just so you know.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If Palestinians want to be represented by people who attack Israel, then they will die in the retaliation.

I would bet that, regardless of how they feel about the Israeli government, a lot of Palestinians don’t want to be represented by Hamas. Do those people deserve to die only because Hamas has declared itself the representative of all Palestinians? Do children too young to comprehend war and death⁠—too young to even realize their own mortality!⁠—deserve to die only because they happened to be born in Gaza?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I would bet that, regardless of how they feel about the Israeli government, a lot of Palestinians don’t want to be represented by Hamas.

Indeed, I believe that recent polls suggest as much.

Do those people deserve to die only because Hamas has declared itself the representative of all Palestinians? Do children too young to comprehend war and death⁠—too young to even realize their own mortality!⁠—deserve to die only because they happened to be born in Gaza?

Do they deserve it? No, they don’t.

Unfortunately, “deserves” doesn’t really mean much right now.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

If you read further into that poll, you’d read that they also want Hamas to stop attacking Israel and support a two-state solution. Also, Fatah is most known there for being horribly corrupt.

Basically, the poll suggests that a (slight) majority of Palestinians support Hamas but none of its self-proclaimed objectives or past behavior, which certainly calls into question how well-informed they are about Hamas.

Oh, and that’s still 47% who don’t support Hamas, which is a significant portion.

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Evil Matthew Bennett Ramsey says:

Re: Re: Re:

Counterpoint: Since 1948, Israel have thought that they could murder their way into having a Jewish state in the Middle East.

Guess what? The Jews won. They kicked Arab ethnonational ass and Greater Israel is theirs by right of conquest.

Honestly, it’s amazing the Jews haven’t liquidated all of the Palestinians yet, when we all know that’s the right and just thing to do.

Anonymous Coward says:

So you agree that you should be targeted in a terrorist attack.

I’ll wait until you acknowledge that there are a LOT of powerful groups who see this as little more than a football to kick.

The Saudis, Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Iran, for starters. I’m sure they want to see Israel gone violently.

There’s also the US, China and Russia, all looking to profit from the current conflict.

And then there’s YOU. Using the suffering of Israeli and Palestinian civilians to push your anti-theist, anti-LGBTQ+ Nazi ideology.

We know you’re a fucking psychopath, Hyman. And we know you’re very bloodthirsty. Sadly you won’t put your money where your mouth is and actually join up with the IDF to commit “legally-sanctioned” genocide. Assuming you’re Jewish, that is.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Go have sex with your trans-identifying male boyfriend.

The truth is that I do, and the sex is more mindblowing than anything your sad, pathetic, boring, unimaginative, chauvinistic, abusive, gaslighting, oppressive, misogynistic, Cro-Magnon brain could ever come up with.

You think you can hold us back like you did for the last century? You might have taken Roe v. Wade away from us, but we FUCKING GOT GAY MARRIAGE APPROVED. And if you think you’re going to encroach on our FSM-given rights, you’ve got another think coming, you Alex Jones Trumpfuck.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

There is no “should” when it comes to terrorist attacks. Countries, and smaller municipalities, are responsible for protecting their citizens, and for stopping those who would prey on them. Arguing that the terrorists “should not” do something is futile, because they’re, duh, terrorists, and they don’t care what their targets think, any more than the shoplifters and fare beaters care about the victims of their thefts.

I don’t care what grievances drive the terrorists. If they attack me and mine, they must die. If they escape to hide among their civilians, they still must die, and it is irrelevant if those civilians die in the process of killing the terrorists. It is the responsibility of those civilians to root out the terrorists in their midst if they do not want to be seen as sympathetic to them. They do not have the choice of remaining passive and then screaming that they’re being killed; or rather, they do, but the people their terrorists attacked aren’t going to listen.

Idiot woke ideologues seem to think that war is a game, with rules of “fairness”, and “proportionality”, and other such garbage. The terrorists are trying to sucker the woke ideologues into protecting them by appealing to these putative rules, trying to get the woke ideologues to stop the retaliation. The people going medieval on the terrorists are unlikely to care what the idiot woke ideologues think.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Even the knights and armies who burned down farms usually didn’t try to murder children. And still fought fairly.

Total War as espoused by Clausewitz is a very recent thing and made worse by the extreme industrialization all countries are happy to do to improve the lives of their citizens.

Again, I should remind you, Hyman, that what you justify doing to others, you justify others doing to yourself.

And there are only some lessons you will have to learn the hard way.

Then again, you’ve shown yourself to be more savage than the Middle Ages and even Clausewitz.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I am not trying to justify anything to you, because there is no need to justify anything to you. Israel is going to attack and kill terrorists, and the human shields they’re hiding behind are also going to die, and that’s going to happen even if you think such behavior is unjustified. Since the terrorists chose to rape, murder, and kidnap Israelis, I do not have to worry that they will feel justified in doing so – I already know what they feel justified in doing.

I hope that Jews around the world are arming themselves. If they come for us again, they might find it a bit more difficult this time around. Or maybe not – plenty of Jews still believe in the good intentions of the people around them, or that the authorities will protect them, even while thousands of terrorist supporters march and even have a beachhead in Congress. I suppose we’ll see.

You persist in thinking that war is a game with rules. The rule of war is that the side that uses force best is the side that wins. The “rules” were first invented for the winners to pile on against the losers, and are now being used by losers to try to stop winners from taking action. You may think that it’s “civilized” to let armed barbarians hang out on your borders and even come in, because that seems to be the thesis of idiot woke ideologues. I would have said that you will learn better once Europe is burning, but I doubt it. You didn’t learn anything when American cities were burning either.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Like how we have rules in polite society, we also have rules for war.

They’re there to curb the excesses people like you would do if the rules didn’t exist.

Again, your callousness is showing, and remember, what you endorse will eventually be done to you.

If you’re going to sow the thunder, be prepared to reap the whirlwind.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“We” can only have rules if there is someone to appeal to, someone to enforce them, someone to punish those who break them. But there is no such entity. Nothing has stopped any of the nations or groups who have chosen to make war, whether it’s Russia, Syria, Argentina, or Palestinians, except when their targets have chosen to fight back.

Idiot woke ideologues and Muslim terrorist sympathizers think that Israel is an evil white oppressor and colonizer of brown people, and they want to use these supposed rules to prevent Israel from destroying the terrorists who attacked them. These same idiot woke ideologues of BLM came out with the strange fruit posters glorifying the paragliders by which the Palestinians entered Israel, so it’s clear that these rules are meant only to stop the white defenders of civilization, not the brown savages who seek to destroy it. Of course that’s extremely on-brand for BLM.

This was entirely predictable except to that part of progressive Jewry that now feels betrayed by their fellow travelers. (Not all, of course. There are plenty of progressive Jews who continue to be happy to offer their throats to the razor.) An ideology that believes that men can be women isn’t going to be prepared to see any aspect of reality that contradicts its faith. White = bad, brown = good, Jews = white has been ingrained in their beliefs for over half a century at least, as can be seen in James Baldwin’s antisemitic screed in 1967 and his later writings.

Baldwin, at least, had the excuse of the politics of envy, seeing decade after decade of Jews rising to success and acceptance while his own people stayed mired in failure. The fact that Jews could do this so soon after the cataclysm of the Holocaust just made things worse for him and other progressives; the only way out of this cognitive dissonance was to say that Jews stole whiteness and enrobed themselves in it, and that therefore their success was unearned and they were legitimate targets for hate. Similarly, Israel was not an example of what a proud, educated, civilized people could build for themselves, but a white “colonial” enterprise that stole what rightfully belonged only to brown people.

You seem to not have noticed just who it is who is in the middle of reaping the whirlwind.

The most likely scenario is that images of idiot woke ideologues and Muslim terrorist sympathizers marching through European cities and American campuses are going to be excellent fodder for Republican campaign commercials, while progressives form their usual circular firing squads and shoot anyone who isn’t pure enough, including Biden.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Israel is fighting a war against terrorists who attacked their civilians. Israel is not particularly interested in killing civilian Palestinians just because, but they will kill civilian Palestinians as collateral damage in the war against the terrorists.

Your playing with word definitions is very clever, and I’m proud of you. But the Palestinians will be just as dead anyway, because no one cares about your clever words. It’s time now for guns and bombs.

Anonymous Coward says:

Why is it these trolls are unable to stay on topic?

I surmise it is their intent to divert the discussion away from the topic at hand. They may even be paid for their silly antics. Sorta like the maga crowd and their attempts to create chaos, they think a chaotic shitstorm will enable their transcendence to ultimate power. The details are somewhat sketchy tho.

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