Tesla Lied About EV Range, Then Created A Team Built Specifically To Undermine Customer Attempts To Get Help
from the very-innovative,-sir! dept
Elon Musk’s companies are routinely heralded for unbridled innovation, but when it comes to very basic customer service, most of them are an incompetent nightmare. Starlink customers looking for refunds after being on waiting lists for years are routinely ghosted. Tesla Solar customers often have it even worse; shelling out huge sums of money only to be jerked around for months or years on end.
But this story by Reuters on Tesla is a different, much uglier animal. It documents how the company actively misrepresented the range of its electric vehicles, then created a dedicated team specifically designed to thwart customer efforts to schedule appointments and get help.
Reuters claims to have spoken to several folks who state that Tesla has been “rigging” their range-estimation algorithms for the better part of the last decade, at the direct behest of Elon Musk, to provide “rosy” projections about car performance and make owners “feel good:”
Tesla years ago began exaggerating its vehicles’ potential driving distance – by rigging their range-estimating software. The company decided about a decade ago, for marketing purposes, to write algorithms for its range meter that would show drivers “rosy” projections for the distance it could travel on a full battery, according to a person familiar with an early design of the software for its in-dash readouts.
That unrealistic hype then created additional strain on the company’s already underfunded and understaffed customer service systems, as users called in to get repairs for something that wasn’t technically broken. Tesla couldn’t come clean that it rigged its distance estimation software, so it created “diversion teams” designed to misdirect and befuddle annoyed customers.
These teams, located in Las Vegas, basically existed to mislead customers who were noticing that their car didn’t see the kind of driving ranges that were promised. Often by falsely claiming Tesla had done “remote diagnostics” to determine there wasn’t a problem. And Reuters documents how after they’d misled customers and derailed their attempts to schedule help, they’d throw a little party:
“Inside the Nevada team’s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and staffers were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day.”
This is the kind of low-brow, frat boy bullshit and misrepresentation I imagine the FTC’s Lina Khan will have some interest in taking a closer look at. It’s also a good example of why automakers are so opposed “right to repair” reform that would not only end their repair monopolies, but make the black box of modern vehicle tech more transparent to owners and independent technicians.
Between this story, the fatal way it misrepresented its self-driving technology, growing competition in the EV space, and Musk’s amazing knack for self-immolation, it’s very hard to not believe that even in the feckless regulatory environs of the U.S. that Tesla doesn’t have some massive headaches on the horizon.
Filed Under: customer service, deceptive, elon musk, ev, EV range, ftc, range, self driving
Companies: tesla
Comments on “Tesla Lied About EV Range, Then Created A Team Built Specifically To Undermine Customer Attempts To Get Help”
Oh look, another masterful gambit from the same dipshit who thinks it’s okay to not punish someone who posts CSAM on Twitter so long as said dipshit likes said CSAM poster.
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And simply takes @X from a user.
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Car companies have been advertising misleading gas mileage statistics forever, so it’s not surprising to see EVs get the same treatment. The figures are derived from ideal conditions, and are not generally attainable in ordinary driving.
As always, TD’s resentment that Elon Musk stopped the censorship that it craves leads to endless articles biting at his ankles.
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The range indicator and EPA mileage estimates are 2 different things. Your conflation of them means you either didn’t read/understand the background material or you are acting in bad faith.
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TD criticized Tesla well before Elon said anything about buying Twitter, and they’re generally critical of this sort of practice in general.
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This is driver information, which could leave a driver stranded because they can’t get range their dash says they have, and they can’t put a spare can of gas in the vehicle just in case if they have a long run to the next charging station..
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Removing CSAM is now “censorship” magats are as depraved as that pedophile Trump
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Considering that the MAGAts call gay men “groomers”, “Every Accusation, A Confession” can’t ring true enough!
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I believe they claim the same thing about drag queens.
Re: Get a room
Your Elon leg humping is disgusting.
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Historically, it’s been very easy to exceed the EPA estimated fuel efficiency. So much so that they adjusted it multiple times to make it more accurately reflect real world conditions.
So no. This is most assuredly not normal.
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You mean they followed the federally mandated protocols for calculating it? SAY IT AIN’T SO!
Heavy thinking will not ruin your life. Give it a whirl.
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AC: “Car companies have been advertising misleading gas mileage statistics forever”
discussitlive: “You mean they followed the federally mandated protocols for calculating it? SAY IT AIN’T SO!”
How does one get from ‘ads are misleading’ to ‘were just following protocol’? Is this some sort of possible excuse to muddy the water? Are you claiming the auto industry does not lie about their product(s)?
btw, Elon stopped nothing.
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It’s not TD’s fault the Musk is such an out of control walking disaster that his every other utterance is so ludicrous it demands to be noticed, by design from Musk, and therefore covered. The article at Ars said other EVs actually under promised range so drivers ended up happy with unexpected extra mileage while Tesla did the opposite because Musk insisted that drivers feel good about their range when they drive off the lot as opposed to feeling good when they actually use the car on a regular basis. It’s an idiotic choice. Musk’s decision allows the customer to feel good once when they drive off the lot that they’re getting more mileage than they will actually get. But then in real life experiences they get less than promised while with the other tested EVs were smart and gave their owners bonus miles every time they used it because it under promised how many miles it could go. Musk is a moron and billionaire moron is something that people are going to cover relentlessly because we’re enjoying watching his self immolation. You want to see the articles cease? Convince Musk to act like a decent, rational human being that can admit to making mistakes so they can course correct. He doesn’t have to initiate “censorship that we love and miss” for this to happen, he just has to stop being so damn stupid.
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This is about what the car is telling the driver, not what was advertised. Do you not understand the difference (just ask, we’ll help!), or did you comment without even reading the article because you’re one of those deeply weird Musk sycophants?
And now he wants to do what?
Now Musk wants to implant chips into human beings.
Yeah, I’ll trust him for that. What could possibly go wrong?
Re: And now he wants to do what?
Off course, everything will go smoothly, Elon’s publicity team will take care of that. You won’t hear a complaint, especially not on Twitter^W X!
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I was told that “Elon Musk stopped the censorship”
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But neuralink have made rosy estimations about how little brain damage you’d receive, you can trust them!
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What? He’s getting into the COVID vaccine market?
/s
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No, that would be 5G
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Under Elon, it’d be 53X. Because of it would be.
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*of course
I picked the wrong day to post without proofreading.
not quite
This is different than the advertised sticker mileage in ideal conditions.. this would be the car actively displaying X miles per gallon with associated range when the car is actually getting much less.
Did you read the article?
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It explains a lot. A few years ago Tesla stopped telling people how big their batteries were and switched many of the displays from miles to battery %.
I have a 2016 Tesla and under nearly ideal conditions, I get better than the EPA estimates over a reasonably long range, say 100 miles, but usually I do worse. That’s about the same as I expect from an ICE, so I think they started this after 2016.
I read that the mapping software still knows the truth, so before you buy a Tesla, you get in and put a destination near the edge of the range in the navigation software. Then if it routes you to a charger, you know the range is less than they are claiming.
Enjoy the lawsuits
Any lawyers out there willing to represent Elon in the coming fraud case? Good luck getting paid.
I wouldn’t call it an amazing knack, not at all. He’s worked hard and spent a lot of money to develop that skill! Some of his own money, even!
It's just training
Musk is working on curating the kind of customer satisfaction ratings that would make him a good fit for a CableCom CEO position.
Reuters Article
If you read the actual article, granted they don’t make it easy, it’s not that cut-and-dried.
“About a decade ago, Tesla rigged the dashboard readouts in its electric cars to provide “rosy” projections …”
Yes, their software 10 years ago was not as accurate as it is today. Calling it rigged certainly sets the tone to follow.
“In March, Alexandre Ponsin set out on a family road trip from Colorado to California in his newly purchased Tesla, a used 2021 Model 3. He expected to get something close to the electric sport sedan’s advertised driving range: 353 miles on a fully charged battery…”
First of all that’s an EPA validated number. That said, yes it’s unrealistic. It assumes optimal conditions, weather, and speed, not loaded down for a family road trip.
“We’re looking at the range, and you literally see the number decrease in front of your eyes”
The range is remaining range. Like a gas gauge, it does indeed decrease in front of your eyes.
“Ponsin contacted Tesla and booked a service appointment in California. He later received two text messages, telling him that “remote diagnostics” had determined his battery was fine”
“In most cases, the complaining customers’ cars likely did not need repair, according to the people familiar with the matter.
“Reuters could not determine whether Tesla still uses algorithms that boost in-dash range estimates.
So hey, let’s stick with 10-year old software that’s been updated many times since.
The EPA cautioned that individuals’ actual experience with vehicle efficiency might differ from the estimates the agency approves”
All the way at the bottom of the article we get back to the original person from the beginning.
” Undeterred, Ponsin brought his car to the Santa Clara service center without an appointment. A technician there told him the car was fine. “It lasted 10 minutes,” Ponsin said, “and they didn’t even look at the car physically.”
After doing more research into range estimates, he said he ultimately concluded there is nothing wrong with his car. The problem, he said, was that Tesla is overstating its performance. He believes Tesla “should be a lot more explicit about the variation in the range,” especially in very cold weather.
“I do love my Tesla,” the engineer said. “But I have just tempered my expectation of what it can do in certain conditions.”
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Bad mileage estimation is not as big of a problem as the steering wheel coming off .. while in motion.
https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesla-steering-wheel-falls-off-again/
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The word rigged sets the tone because it is accurate. Good job whiteknighting for a Bond villain billionaire, he truly needs your invaluable help.
You’re completely misrepresenting the article and the evidence provided:
_”Tesla isn’t the only automaker with cars that don’t regularly achieve their advertised ranges.
One of the experts, Gregory Pannone, co-authored a study of 21 different brands of electric vehicles, published in April by SAE International, an engineering organization. The research found that, on average, the cars fell short of their advertised ranges by 12.5% in highway driving.
The study did not name the brands tested, but Pannone told Reuters that three Tesla models posted the worst performance, falling short of their advertised ranges by an average of 26%.”_
That has NOTHING to do with software 10 years ago that you’re so erroneously hung up on. And it also means that tesla is the worst of the bunch even if you accept the “but everyone does it” argument.
And you’re also ignoring the completely customer hostile approach to dealing with it.
He’s not going to buy you a poney.
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We are not discussing the advertised range, but rather the fuel gauge, calibrated in miles left in the battery. Considering that running out of battery leads to an expensive tow job, the estimated range should be pessimistic, not optimistic.
Re: Re: Tesla Maps
As someone who had a car in this time range, The maps and the estimate and espically the maps with the energy usage estimates were really much more spot on then the article says.
The maps were tuned quite clearly to get accurate usage, so if your going over a big hill you can see your battery usage spike and everything. I often pulled into the next Supercharger within 3% of estimates.
The basic gague was nothing more then perfect driving (55 MPH, no hills) and the system went out of its way to warn you not to speed or run AC or whatever if your going to be hitting your emergency resurve in time for you to make changes if needed.
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And your neatly planned journey is being interrupted by a major diversion, do you have the range to take it, or do you need to fins a charging station before taking it? The range gauge should be pessimistic to help you make the best decision, not optimistic leading you to go for it and running out of battery.
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If your smart and allow extra, then yes. Just like you don’t plan a trip so you pull into a gas station with no gas left in your tank, you always allow extra range in case something goes wrong. I will usually switch to a closer charger if the map says I’ll arrive with less than 20%. It looks like the mapping software may go down to about 10%, but I like to have the piece of mind to know I can deal with anything in the way.
I usually arrive at my destination with a bit more charge than the map predicted. The only exception is when I’m pulling a trailer. Then the map isn’t even close.
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The article most certainly is discussing advertised range. And you even quoted a line addressing the EPA range.
“The Austin, Texas-based electric carmaker deployed the team because its service centers were inundated with appointments from owners who had expected better performance based on the company’s advertised estimates and the projections displayed by the in-dash range meters of the cars themselves, according to several people familiar with the matter.”
Re: one key difference
The difference is that, in a gasoline powered car, when I notice the needle dropping below a quarter-tank, I can pull off at the next exit and get gasoline. Not a big deal, fifteen minutes later I have peed and am back on the road.
If a Tesla gets below the equivalent of a quarter-tank, there is no assurance that you can pull off at the next exit, re-fill, and quickly be back on the road. It may be coming, and fast-chargers may be improving, but right now it does not appear to be there.
Edmunds EV testing
Check out the Edmunds EV range table. The only manufacturers that didn’t surpass the EPA estimates are Lucid, Tesla and Toyota.
“Inside the Nevada team’s office, some employees celebrated canceling service appointments by putting their phones on mute and striking a metal xylophone, triggering applause from coworkers who sometimes stood on desks. The team often closed hundreds of cases a week and staffers were tracked on their average number of diverted appointments per day.”
My first thought upon reading that was that it was so absurd and childish that there was no way it could be real.
My second thought was remembering who they worked for and suddenly it became a lot more believable.
Obfuscation...
As usual with sensational headlines, the truth is more complicated.
Batteries, unlike gas tank guages, don’t directly measure full or empty. (Although my BMW also “guesses” range left, based on fuel consumption – and equally variable). A tesla estimates battery capacity based on the voltage(?) it sees across the battery; many factors affect this, including temperature. My 5-year-old 3 charges to 80% claiming somewhere between 255 and 380 depending on the weather – better in the heat.
Tesla guesses how full the battery is based on calibration estimates. It calibrates its estimates based on a process that runs while the car is parked. Because this requires the battery voltage to stabilize across several very high resistors, this stablization takes 3 hours or more. The car must be unplugged during this process even if not charging. (so going home and immediately plugging it in stops the process from running.
To accurately read battery capacity and so estimate range, the process should be allowed from time to time to run while the car is fully charged (i.e. 80% or more) and also from while close to discharged (say, 10% to 20%). If not, the calibration estimates wander and the (estimate) range varies, usually downward not up. This calibration has also been adjusted to be more accurate with subsequent software versions.
Also, like any vehicle, energy used depends on speed. Don’t expect the same range at typical 75mph interstate speeds; or (am Canadian, can confirm) in freezing cold. Most interstate travel is well above the 55mph that nominal range is derived from. OTOH, same result from my BMW as well – range is an estimate.
Also, like gas vehicles, I don’t plan to drive so I arrive at the next “fill-up” with only a few miles remaining. The charger coverage is good enough that there should be no problem with range on any trip on US interstates.
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If you want to talk about obfuscation, your post is it.
The Lithium Ion battery is a well understood chemistry, and numerical models for estimating capacity are well understood if you measure more than battery voltage….which the Tesla’s do. Current, temperature during charging, temperature during discharge, load profiles, and a large number of vehicles on the road to collect telemetry from should give Tesla the upper hand. Instead, they are the worst. which leads me to believe they are A) incompetent at doing what even the most recent entrants are capable of doing, B) actively lying about capabilities much the CEO talking about FSD for the last decade or C) both.
Typo
typo – sorry, 80% charge is somewhere between 355 and 380. In summer closer to 380. Down from 400 when it was new.