Federal Judge Rules Tennessee Anti-Drag Law Unconstitutional

from the try-harder,-haters dept

Tiny hateful people are trying to convert their small-mindedness into actual laws all around the nation. On the public’s dime, bigots are advancing bills targeting the free expression of anyone who doesn’t fall into the hetero container these asshats think everyone should fit into. At least twelve state legislatures have introduced bills designed to criminalize drag shows and other forms of expression most often utilized by those who fall outside of the two gender identities these supposed representatives of the people choose to recognize.

The laws are badly written because they cannot help but be. When you write laws targeting only certain people, it’s extremely easy — if not inevitable — to fall on the wrong side of the Constitution. Tennessee became the first state to pass a law criminalizing drag shows, something legislators tried (not so cleverly) to talk around by not actually utilizing that particular phrase, as this Associated Press article (republished by The Guardian) points out:

The Republican-dominated Tennessee legislature advanced the anti-drag law earlier this year, with several members pointing to drag performances in their hometowns as reasons it was necessary to restrict such performances from taking place in public or where children could view them.

Yet the word “drag” does not appear in the statute. Instead lawmakers changed the definition of adult cabaret to mean “adult-oriented performances that are harmful to minors”. Furthermore, “male or female impersonators” were classified as a form of adult cabaret, akin to strippers and topless, go-go and exotic dancers.

The law would have banned adult cabaret performances from public property or anywhere minors might be present. Performers who broke the law risked being charged with a misdemeanor or a felony for a repeat offense.

The law was supposed to have gone into effect on April 1st of this year. It never did because the group suing over the law, LGBTQ theatre company Friends of George’s, managed to secure a temporary injunction earlier this year.

It’s now permanent. Federal judge Thomas Parker has ruled the law unconstitutional in a 70-page opinion [PDF] that should help provide a blueprint for future constitutional challenges that will be triggered if bills in other parts of the nation are passed by governors as terrible as Governor Bill Lee. (Shout out to LGBTQ news source Los Angeles Blade for providing a copy of the ruling the Associated Press somehow couldn’t manage to share with its millions of readers.)

The opening of the decision says it all:

The Tennessee General Assembly enacted a statute criminalizing the performance of “adult cabaret entertainment” in “any location where the adult cabaret entertainment could be viewed by a person who is not an adult.” Plaintiff Friends of George’s, Inc. sued under 42 U.S.C. § 1983 to enjoin enforcement of that statute, alleging that it is an unconstitutional restriction on free speech under the First Amendment, as incorporated to the states by the Fourteenth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

[…]

After considering the briefs and evidence presented at trial, the Court finds that—despite Tennessee’s compelling interest in protecting the psychological and physical wellbeing of children—the Adult Entertainment Act (“AEA”) is an UNCONSTITUTIONAL restriction on the freedom of speech and PERMANENTLY ENJOINS Defendant Steven Mulroy from enforcing the unconstitutional statute.

The court points out the law is designed from the ground up to be abused to punish only certain people for failing to adhere to what these legislators (and the governor, apparently) believe to be within the realm of “normal” sexuality.

Section 39-17-901’s “harmful to minors” standard lowers the floor for criminal behavior, equipping law enforcement officers with even more discretion. The chance that an officer could abuse that wide discretion is troubling given an art form like drag that some would say purposefully challenges the limits of society’s accepted norms. And the AEA covers a wide geographical reach: “in a location where adult cabaret entertainment could be viewed by a person who is not an adult.”

The Court emphasizes that the fear of prosecution from law enforcement officers is not merely speculative but certainly impending. The Parties stipulate that Defendant intends to enforce the AEA. Moreover, the AEA, unlike the statutes in Ginsberg, Miller, and Davis-Kidd, criminally sanctions not the business operators but the performers themselves. The AEA also contains no textual scienter requirement, safe harbors, or even affirmative defenses—like parental consent—present in similar obscenity statutes as discussed more fully below.

The state tried to claim the law only targeted obscenity, which falls outside of constitutional protections. But not all obscenity is created equal, the judge points out. There are different standards and the law passed here is far too vague to possibly limit itself to only truly illegal obscenity.

Legal obscenity is an exceptionally high standard as one of its prongs requires that the speech “not have serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.” Moreover, speech that is not obscene—which may even be harmful to minors—is a different category from obscenity. Simply put, no majority of the Supreme Court has held that sexually explicit—but not obscene—speech receives less protection than political, artistic, or scientific speech.

The state also tried to salvage the law by saying it had copied much of the text from a law that had been on the books since 1987. But that can’t save it from a 2023 review. And the old law regulated businesses, ensuring compliance with zoning laws. This one targets performers, individuals with free speech rights, rather than business entities with fewer speech protections. Not only that, the court notes, homosexual sex was still criminalized in 1987, so just saying that something has been on the books for years isn’t really a slam dunk argument the state seems to think it is.

Here’s where the judge obliterates the law and makes it clear what he thinks about what the state says the intent of the law is and what the state’s true intent is.

Regardless of the Tennessee General Assembly’s intentions, the AEA’s text criminalizes performances that are “harmful to minors” by “male or female impersonators,” and the Court must grapple with that text. The Court finds that this phrase discriminates against the viewpoint of gender identity—particularly, those who wish to impersonate a gender that is different from the one with which they are born. An illustration might be helpful.

Assume an individual, who identifies as male, holds a guitar and wears an “Elvis Presley” costume that is revealing without being legally obscene, but indecent enough to be potentially
harmful to minors. If this individual “performs” by telling jokes in Elvis’ voice in “a location
where adult cabaret entertainment could be viewed by a person who is not an adult,” it is unclear whether this person would violate the AEA. One could argue, as Defendant does, that the individual would qualify as a “similar entertainer,” who belongs in the same category as “topless dancers, go-go dancers, exotic dancers, strippers.” But is that necessarily so? The similar entertainers’ common thread—aside from being traditionally associated with “adult-oriented establishments”—is that they are all dancers of a sort. What if the Elvis impersonator does not dance? Does this performance have any redeeming value to a five-year-old? It remains
unclear whether that performer would violate the AEA.

But if a person who identifies as a female wore the same Elvis costume and engaged in the same performance, she would clearly be a male impersonator. The AEA is viewpoint discriminatory in that it will more likely punish the latter, but not the former, for wearing the same costume and conducting the same performance.

Finally, the court finds the legislature passed the unconstitutional law for a constitutionally impermissible purpose — something that can clearly be gleaned from the legislative record, no matter what the government says now in the law’s defense:

This District Court does not find that the Tennessee General Assembly’s predominate concerns were “increase in sexual exploitation.” Rather, the Court finds that their predominate concerns involved the suppression of unpopular views of those who wish to impersonate a gender that is different from the one with which they were born. Defendant’s identification of “increase in sexual exploitation” as the legislature’s predominate concern in passing the AEA draws not from legislators, but from Ms. Starbuck’s testimony. (“It’s no wonder we have skyrocketing mental health crisis amongst our confused and vulnerable youth with more sexual exploitation crimes reported than ever before.”). The only other time “sexual exploitation” was mentioned in the legislative transcript was in Ms. Starbuck’s testimony. (“[Children] are seeing adults clap every time an article of clothing is removed, the adults are thunderously clapping. And so they are making associations that when you take your clothes off, you’re rewarded money . . . But continuing that behavior is sending that message to children and it[’]s normalizing that sexual exploitation.”) On the other hand, the record is replete with references to the expressive conduct of “male or female impersonators,” “drag shows,” “Pride” events, and more. The Court’s determination that the AEA was enacted for an impermissible purpose is broad enough to reject the notion that the AEA is aimed not at the content of expressive speech but rather at its secondary effects.

The judge signs off with this: a word of warning to the state’s taxpayers, who not only paid to have this stupid law written and enacted, but paid to have it defended in court by people who attempted to salvage it by undercutting the anti-drag “for the children” sales pitch offered by legislators when passing the law.

Tennesseans deserve to know that their State’s defense of the AEA primarily involved a request for the Court to alter the AEA by changing the meaning of “minors” to a “reasonable 17-year-old minor.” In other words, while its citizens believed this powerful law would protect all children, the State’s lawyers told the Court this law will only protect 17-year-olds.

Since many of these bills are cut from the same unconstitutional cloth, it’s unlikely those pending in other state legislatures will survive a challenge should they manage to become law. But I guarantee you the shitty people pushing these laws won’t learn anything from this decision. And they’re going to make taxpayers subsidize the defense of their petty hatred.

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Comments on “Federal Judge Rules Tennessee Anti-Drag Law Unconstitutional”

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Anonymous Coward says:

It’s disappointing to see Tim Cushing describe right-thinking folks trying to prevent the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children by the deviant LGBTQ+ community as “hateful.”

But this seems to be a trend here at TechDirt: defending the sexualization of children and their for-profit mutilation and sterilization.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Samuel Abram (profile) says:

Re:

It’s disappointing to see Tim Cushing describe right-thinking folks trying to prevent the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children by the deviant LGBTQ+ community as “hateful.”

Weird, all the sexual abuse I’ve heard of has been done by priests and not by drag queens.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re:

It’s disappointing to see Tim Cushing describe right-thinking folks trying to prevent the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children by the deviant LGBTQ+ community as “hateful.”

There is zero disproportionate correlation between those that actually participate in the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children and the LGBTQ+ community. It’s only your ignorance and hate that makes you see things that aren’t actually there. From your very selective outrage we can only assume you’re perfectly fine with the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children carried out by straight folks.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

It’s disappointing to see Tim Cushing describe right-WING folks trying to prevent the sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children by the deviant LGBTQ+ community as “hateful.”

T,FTFY

You should know by now that right-WING folks don’t think, they emote…. with their genitalia. That explains their hyper-fascination with other people when it comes to sex. Well, that and a certain desire to control/dictate how other people can/will live… according to right-WING emotions.

sumgai
(yeah, WordPress has ignored my cookie once again. I give up.)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The above comment is written by known harasser and actual Nazi Hyman Rosen. Please do not try to debate with him because he’s hellbent on shitting the comment thread up.

But this seems to be a trend here at TechDirt: defending the sexualization of children and their for-profit mutilation and sterilization.

Techdirt has not, from what I know, written about child beauty pageants and has criticized at least one ban on a certain movie on Netflix.

Also, religion is more likely to circumcise children without their consent.

Also, apparently, to him, plastic surgery is for-profit “mutilation”, despite his trying to twist it to not apply to his twisted beliefs.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

No, I don’t think that’s Hyman, or if it is, he’s pretending to be someone with more extreme views than he does. This is a different (or “different”, if you prefer) troll who calls for the extermination of the entire LGBTQ+ community just for existing within eyesight of children.

I base this on certain word choices, most particularly “right-thinking” and “deviant”. Hyman never says “right-thinking”, and he generally calls transgender people as “delusional” or “mentally ill” rather than “deviants”. He’s also said that he believes these bills are blatantly unconstitutional and nothing more than political theater, not even that long ago.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Correct. As I’ve said, I would be happy to always post as signed-in if you could convince the site owner not to send my posts to moderation. It’s petty harassment that accomplishes less than nothing; people who want to ignore me or flag me on sight have trouble knowing which posts are mine. It does not stop me from posting my opinions anyway as AC.

I don’t much care for calling people deviant, because I believe that everyone should have the freedom to live life on their own terms without requiring approval from those around them. This does not mean that other people must refrain from criticizing their choices and behavior or accepting their beliefs; that too is freedom. Unless those people are causing literal harm or intrusion to others, though, the law should never prevent them from living as they choose, and attempts to do that are generally found unconstitutional (including things like animal sacrifice).

Some people are delusional because they believe things that are contrary to physical reality, and trans people who believe they are a sex other than that of their bodies are among those. So are anorexics who believe that small amounts of food will make them overweight, or paranoiacs who believe the government is monitoring their brainwaves, or schizophrenics who believe their auditory hallucinations represent external voices.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Hyman Rosen has been told countless of times to stop being a homophobic/transphobic jackass.

He has refused to do so, forcing the owner of the site to actually resort to extreme means of moderation that DON’T involve deletion.

Hyman, sadly, has chosen to abuse anonymous posting to harass the site instead.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Be that as it may, the site owner professes to believe in freedom of speech and does not delete my posts, so I don’t see what he gains by sending my signed-in posts to moderation, except for a tiny frisson of harassment schadenfreude. It just makes hating on me more inconvenient.

What you call transphobia is simple acknowledgement of reality, so I’m afraid neither I nor the physical universe will stop disabusing you of your false beliefs.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You ignore everything proving you wrong and have the audacity to say you’re acknowledging reality? Acknowledging reality isn’t transphobic but that’s nowhere near what you or anyone claiming to “acknowledge reality” do when you, for instance, decry all research supporting trans people as just trying to make money off medicines because they says something you don’t like. That’s why you’re called transphobic and not anything remotely related to any realities you’re pretending to live in.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You still haven’t pointed to false beliefs. Additionally, what you just described is known as “harassment”. You are deliberately taking advantage of the rules to ignore clear and unambiguous demands for you to go away and keep talking about the exact same things you were kicked off for anyways.

Also, he doesn’t leave you up purely for freedom of speech, as free speech doesn’t apply here. Instead, it’s because doing so removes context for a lot of posts from everyone else who can play, if not nice, then at least better than you. He told you this. You just choose to ignore that.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

“Technically correct is the best kind of correct.”

Either the site owner wishes to allow speech with which he disagrees, or he does not. If he does not, he has the technical means to remove it. It makes no sense for him to demand that someone stop speaking but not take the easy action to enforce that demand, except that it allows him to maintain the fiction that he supports freedom of speech. There would be no discussion based on my posts if he chose not to allow them to appear, after all.

The false belief of woke gender ideology is that anyone can ever be other than the sex of their body. The corollary is that people with such delusional beliefs should be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them. Where woke ideology has colonized government, that force is being applied by the government:
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/06/06/women-only-naked-spa-lacks-constitutional-right-to-exclude-transgender-patrons-with-pensises/
Women who do not want to see naked men or be seen naked by men have had their rights stripped from them by Washington State.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Either the site owner wishes to allow speech with which he disagrees, or he does not.

He’s allowed to decide what speech he will or won’t host, even if that means some speech gets sent straight to the spamfilter. If you really think you deserve a right to free reach⁠—such that Mike can be forced to allow your comments through under your account⁠—you feel free to make that ridiculous-ass argument. I’ll be here to tear it apart.

It makes no sense for him to demand that someone stop speaking but not take the easy action to enforce that demand

He has asked you to leave⁠—or at least stop posting your transphobic bullshit⁠—plenty of times. At this point, you’re the one who looks like an asshole by refusing to listen and continuing to harass a site where you and your bullshit have been unwelcome for a long time. I’m left to wonder how many women you’ve harassed in the same way.

There would be no discussion based on my posts if he chose not to allow them to appear

And we would all be better off for that⁠—which is why Mike has asked you to leave. Your continued and voluntary refusal to listen is your problem.

The false belief of woke gender ideology is that anyone can ever be other than the sex of their body.

Can you point to anyone who actually agrees with that sentiment without you first claiming that sex and gender are one and the same? Otherwise, we can call that assertion “a false belief of religious-based conservative gender ideology”⁠—and I know how much you hate being lumped in with the people you claim not to support (but love to parrot).

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Either the site owner wishes to allow speech with which he disagrees, or he does not. If he does not, he has the technical means to remove it. It makes no sense for him to demand that someone stop speaking but not take the easy action to enforce that demand, except that it allows him to maintain the fiction that he supports freedom of speech.

This isn’t about you just disagreeing. This is about you bringing up off-topic subjects. And I already explained why, as did Mike: It makes the comments replying to you make less sense.

The false belief of woke gender ideology is that anyone can ever be other than the sex of their body.

Which is a nonexistent belief, so it’s a nonexistent ideology as you define it.

The corollary is that people with such delusional beliefs should be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Still haven’t demonstrated a belief transgender people actually have that is delusional.

Where woke ideology has colonized government, that force is being applied by the government:
Women who do not want to see naked men or be seen naked by men have had their rights stripped from them by Washington State.

This is about discrimination, which Washington State has a stronger prohibition against. They aren’t allowed to do it.

Also, they are actually perfectly fine with transwomen who have had SRS. The problem was discriminating against some transwomen but not all.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Correct. As I’ve said, I would be happy to always post as signed-in if you could convince the site owner not to send my posts to moderation.

That isn’t going to happen. I’d consider it if you had chosen to tone down your rhetoric and play by the rules, but you have shown zero interest in even doing the bare minimum of not bringing up transgender people where it is off-topic.

It may be petty, but it’s no pettier than you are being.

Some people are delusional because they believe things that are contrary to physical reality, and trans people who believe they are a sex other than that of their bodies are among those.

Since the number of trans people who believe that they are a sex other than that of their bodies is and always has been exactly 0, trans people are not among those. You can keep attacking this strawman all you want, but it’s still a strawman.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Men are people with male bodies and women are people with female bodies. Spaces labeled for men and women are for people with make and female bodies. If people with the trans delusion acknowledge that they are the sex of their body, then they should stop trying to force their way into spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Men are people with male bodies and women are people with female bodies.

Sorry, but you’re committing an argument from definition: you don’t get to define it.

Spaces labeled for men and women are for people with make and female bodies.

Not necessarily. In practice, that wasn’t how it ended up all the time, as people don’t really inspect other’s genitals. Though, really, is there a reason why it should stay that way?

If people with the trans delusion […]

Not a delusion.

[…] acknowledge that they are the sex of their body, […]

Which they do.

[…] then they should stop trying to force their way into spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

That doesn’t actually follow. They disagree with the policy being based on a very specific part of their body, irrespective of safety or pragmatism, and so they endeavor to change it. Black people who wanted to use white-only spaces didn’t do so because they thought they were white; they did so because they wanted that policy to change.

I’ve explained this multiple times, but you have never addressed it.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Dressing up as someone of the opposite sex is not sexualization, grooming, and abuse of children, even if it is done in front of children. Also, most drag performers aren’t even LGBTQ+ in the first place! Most are straight, cisgender, and either male or female (not intersex).

What you people don’t seem to understand is that drag performers are entirely separate and completely unrelated to transgender people. Virtually no drag performers are transgender, and most are not gay, either.

And no, drag performers are not trying to make children wear drag, let alone become LGBTQ+. For one thing, that simply isn’t a thing the LGBTQ+ community or their supporters believe is possible to begin with, so it certainly wouldn’t be a goal of theirs. Moreover, drag performances have been performed in front of children for decades. Bugs Bunny wore drag. Monty Python wore drag. There is zero evidence whatsoever that any of them led to children questioning their sexuality or gender identity at all.

So no, that isn’t what they’re trying to do. They’re just trying to punish people for being different, and they’re using children to get more people on board with it. You are completely and utterly wrong.

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Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“most drag performers aren’t even LGBTQ+ in the first place”

That’s really not true. There are a lot of LGBTQ+ drag artists, as well as a lot of straight, cis men and women.

However, whether they are or aren’t is irrelevant to this crap because being LGBTQ+ doesn’t make you a groomer or a paedophile, and neither does being in drag. This garbage is made up out of whole cloth by fascists, and it’s repeated every couple of decades by the current far right shit stirrers to get their supporters all worked up about nothing.

It’s not even worth addressing, whether you’re in a dress or not!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Drag is Blackface. It consists of powerful and privileged people, men, caricaturing, mocking, and replacing a traditionally denigrated and disempowered group, women.

Which is good. Blackface (and other such inter-group costuming) needs to be rehabilitated so that performances that are meant to be simply entertaining do not get treated with the same brush that applies to performances intended to mock the group being imitated. The acceptance of drag, including the widespread availability of drag performances in front of little children, should help spur a similar surge in Blackface entertainment.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’m not a patron or viewer of drag shows, so I wouldn’t know for sure, but my impression is that drag performers are nearly always men caricaturing women. But the other way around is fine too – Eddie Murphy performing in whiteface on SNL, or the Wayans brothers doing a whole movie in whiteface.

Any performer should be able to play any role in any dress or makeup they like. They should be criticized, if necessary, for the specific content of their performance, but not for “appropriating” appearance.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

my impression is that drag performers are nearly always men caricaturing women

It’s not about making fun of women, though. Broadly speaking, drag is about celebrating, rather than mocking or belittling, the feminine. If drag really was about mocking women, it’d be easier to find examples of drag queens saying the kind of backwards-ass neanderthal-level shit that incels love to say about women. Like, I don’t even watch drag shows and such, but even I know drag isn’t about mocking women⁠—because if it were, RuPaul’s show wouldn’t still be on the air.

Any performer should be able to play any role in any dress or makeup they like. They should be criticized, if necessary, for the specific content of their performance, but not for “appropriating” appearance.

Your saying that makes me think you would have no problem with Scarlett Johansson donning full blackface to play Harriet Tubman. If I have to explain to you why that’s a bad thing, don’t even bother replying⁠—because you’re gonna need to touch grass, till the soil, and plant crops to even begin getting your shit together.

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Bloof (profile) says:

Re:

How many children have been molested at drag shows and how many have been molested in churches or at church events by members of the clergy? How many children have been molested by drag queens compared to those molested by GOP politicians? How many drag queens are either pushing for weakening of laws preventing child labour and exploitation or actively blocking attempts to ban child marriage in states they control?

There are very real threats to children in the US and they’re the assholes going after LGBTQ+ people, screeching think of the children.

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John85851 (profile) says:

Grooming as a dog whistle

Is the word “grooming” now a dog whistle phrase?
Whenever I read stories like this, there are always people quick to say that drag queens or people in the LGBT are “grooming” kids.
Grooming them for what, exactly? To be more open minded about other viewpoints in life? To be entertained by men in dresses, which goes back to Milton Berle and long before?

Yet passing laws against drag queens is definitely grooming kids to be close minded and bigoted.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Is the word “grooming” now a dog whistle phrase?

Yes and no.

“Grooming”, in this context, refers to the act of an adult building a relationship with a child so the adult can manipulate them into sexual activity. People who abuse children in their families will often use that familial connection with the child as a means of gaining trust before the actual abuse begins. (And statistically speaking, the people most likely to abuse children are family members.)

The current right-wing/alt-right/fascist dipshit usage of the word hinges on the idea that queer people are inherently and exclusively sexual beings from the moment they start identifying as queer. Hell, the accusation of “queer people are all child rapists in waiting” is older than I am. But the accusation is broadened when used against trans people: “They’re grooming the kids into transing their genders!” The idea there is that exposure to transgender people in any way is a gateway to a child thinking that being transgender is “cool” and trans people need to “recruit” children into a “trans lifestyle” because trans people wouldn’t otherwise exist. That this particular accusation is recycled from the days when bigots could say that about gay people and not get laughed out of the room is no accident.

The “grooming” thing is also lobbied at people of all kinds when the topic of sex education in schools comes up. “You want to teach our seven-year-old about BDSM, don’t you?!” yells an ignorant motherfucker who wants to shut down age-appropriate sex education in their school. But the funny thing is, such education can often be how abuse victims figure out that they’re being abused⁠—and without that education, they may not ever have that knowledge until after they’ve already been psychologically scarred by years of sexual abuse at a tender age. Nobody who wants age-appropriate sex ed in schools wants to show children porn. (Anyone who does deserves, at a bare minimum, to no longer be able to teach children anything.) What people want is to educate children about their bodies and give them the knowledge they need to say “hey, I’m being abused, I need help” to an adult they can trust. That right-wingers⁠—especially conservative religious types⁠—want to fight against that sort of thing being taught to their children is…telling.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

People who believe they are a sex other than that of their body are mentally ill. The grooming aspect comes from the fact that now that the medical and psychological professions have been colonized by woke gender ideology, children who begin to exhibit signs of such mental illness are being encouraged to believe that their delusions represent reality, and rather than being treated to learn to live comfortably in the only body they will ever have, they are led to having their bodies mutilated into a semblance of what they can never be.

When insanity becomes normalized, treatment of insanity becomes forbidden. Those on the verge of insanity are groomed into it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

What’s more likely: trans people being manipulated by a worldwide cabal of scientists of all ideologies even though trans people have existed longer than what we refer to now as science, or

You being so detached from reality that you think pharmaceutical companies have a fucking time machine to place “gender ideology” in Native American societies with known third genders and the Roman Empire that had a fucking trans emperor? Seriously?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

People who believe they are a sex other than that of their body are mentally ill.

And nobody believes that.

The grooming aspect comes from the fact that now that the medical and psychological professions have been colonized by woke gender ideology, children who begin to exhibit signs of such mental illness are being encouraged to believe that their delusions represent reality, and rather than being treated to learn to live comfortably in the only body they will ever have, they are led to having their bodies mutilated into a semblance of what they can never be.

That’s not what grooming is, nor have you demonstrated a delusion.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Grooming” is adults encouraging children to behave in a way that is detrimental to their own interest. While it may have its origins in adults trying to engage sexually with children, people who are trying to redefine “men” and “women” should certainly understand the concept of a definition broadening to related contexts.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“Grooming” is adults encouraging children to behave in a way that is detrimental to their own interest.

You mean like telling them “if you’re queer, you won’t have a place in this family”?

But no, “grooming” in this context is about adults using their positions of authority and trust to build a relationship with a child that eventually leads to sexual activity. How weird, then, that you seem more concerned with the baseless right-wing idea of “any exposure to queer people is grooming”. Also, if mere exposure to queerness is “grooming”, how can you explain the numerous queer people who became queer despite a lack of exposure to queerness in their formative years? (Other than using the widely debunked “mental illness” or “child abuse” excuses, that is.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Grooming is also “the first one is free” and “just stand on the corner and whistle if you see a cop”. And of course most children will dismiss woke gender ideology for the garbage that it is, just as they dismiss other heavy-handed messaging from adults. It’s at the margins where the grooming matters, where a mentally ill kid who might have been saved from the misery of having their body mutilated is instead encouraged that this is the right thing to do.

Woke gender ideology is false, so any messaging to children that says otherwise means that the children are being lied to and encouraged to behave in ways that are counter to reality. Telling children that people can ever be a sex different from that of their bodies is exactly the same as telling them that Jesus is real.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Grooming is also “the first one is free” and “just stand on the corner and whistle if you see a cop”.

In a manner of speaking, yes. But when people use the word “groomer”, they’re likely referring not to drug dealer, but to people who sexually abuse children. That you’re trying to expand the meaning of “groomer” when used in that sense to mean “anyone who tries to indoctrinate children” is a clear sign that you care only about being able to justify treating queer people of all kinds as if they’re equally as evil as a drug dealer.

most children will dismiss woke gender ideology for the garbage that it is, just as they dismiss other heavy-handed messaging from adults

If you actually think “woke gender ideology” (which you continually refuse to define) is “heavy-handed messaging”, you’re kind of insane. Hell, even the most milquetoast forms of messaging around treating queer people like people will catch shit from assholes like you.

a mentally ill kid who might have been saved from the misery of having their body mutilated is instead encouraged that this is the right thing to do

Two things.

  1. That you continually and unapologetically compare being transgender to having a mental illness doesn’t make you look good here.
  2. Your fever dream of children being able to walk into a medical facility and have SRS done on demand is exactly that: a fever dream with no evidentiary basis in reality.

Telling children that people can ever be a sex different from that of their bodies is exactly the same as telling them that Jesus is real.

In my experience, the people who tell kids “Jesus is real” are the same people who say shit like “woke gender ideology is false”, “trans people need to be cured of their mental illness via conversion therapy”, and “eradicating transgenderism totally isn’t the same thing as eradicating trans people, it’s just a proper solution to The Transgender Question”. For all the shit you talk about them, you’re actually on their side, and they’ll be glad to have you as an ally to their cause of hurting queer people in every way they can. Well, up until they’re done eradicating queer people, anyway⁠—at which point your being someone who mocks God will earn you nothing less than a quick face-eating from the anti-queer leopards. Fascism, after all, is an ouroboros: It will inevitably eat itself. You will only be spared from your fate if you die before they can finish the job.

Have fun at your JK Rowling circlejerk! 👋

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

J. K. Rowling is wonderful, and she is often on Twitter living her best life, gently mocking the people who think spewing hatred at her will get her or her followers to change their views on woke gender ideology.

As I’ve told you before, I don’t care who shares some of my views, or what other views those people have. If there are people who both believe that woke gender ideology is false and that Jews should be persecuted, that’s their business. People can hate me for my religion if they want, but that’s not going to make me change my mind about things that I believe that they do also.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

And of course most children will dismiss woke gender ideology for the garbage that it is, just as they dismiss other heavy-handed messaging from adults.

Except that’s not actually true. Children tend to be a lot more open-minded about this sort of thing, just like they are about homosexuals.

It’s at the margins where the grooming matters, where a mentally ill kid who might have been saved from the misery of having their body mutilated is instead encouraged that this is the right thing to do.

Again, SRS is almost never performed on minors at all, and they’re only encouraged to transition to the extent they feel comfortable with.

Also, not only do most people never transition, many of those who do never get SRS, the percentage of people who get SRS who later regret it is quite small, and many of them specifically because of how they were treated afterwards rather than because of anything to do with the surgery itself, so you’re looking at the margins of the margins of the margins of the margins of the margins here that you could say experience “the misery of having their bodies mutilated” due to SRS and being miserable because of it.

Also, just like how no treatment makes a gay person straight, no treatment makes a transgender person cisgender. Gender identity is just as immutable as sex, if not moreso. So you’re fighting a lost cause there at least as much as they are.

Woke gender ideology is false, so any messaging to children that says otherwise means that the children are being lied to and encouraged to behave in ways that are counter to reality.

Except you still haven’t pointed to a single aspect of “woke gender ideology” that 1) transgender people actually believe and/or claim and 2) is demonstrably false. Like, I can think of some things people have said to try to support transgender people that are objectively false (or at least undemonstrated/an opinion and bigoted), but you keep coming up with either strawmen, demonstrably true things they believe, or unfalsifiable things they believe, none of which qualify as demonstrably false claims that they actually make.

Moreover, having surgery to modify your body is not behaving counter to reality. It’s doing what you can to make reality more bearable.

Telling children that people can ever be a sex different from that of their bodies is exactly the same as telling them that Jesus is real.

  1. Again, nobody claims that people can be a sex different from that of their bodies.
  2. I mean, even if he’s not the miracle worker born-of-a-virgin described in the Bible, Jesus existing isn’t even that absurd of a claim. A messianic, apocalyptic Jewish preacher named Yeshua during a time when messianic, apocalyptic Jewish preachers were all the rage in a place populated primarily by Jews and having a name extremely common among Hebrew boys back then? Seems pretty likely. And that he angered both the priests and the Romans (particularly a famously anti-Semitic Roman governor) to the point he was sentenced to crucifixion, especially right after the Romans had just put down a particular rebellious messianic cult? Also pretty reasonable. And we don’t exactly have a lot of great records from that particular time and place, so that our records of him are rather spotty at best, nonexistent at worst, is rather unsurprising. So yeah, that Jesus existed is a rather mundane claim when you break it down to the core elements. That was a terrible example, especially since, even if it was false, it’s not even comparable to the absurdity of the (nonexistent) claim that sex, specifically, is not solely that of the body. Like, at least pick something that is false by definition.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Gender identity is immutable” is also unfalsifiabke; when you encounter someone who is cured of their gender dysphoria, you will just claim they were never trans to begin with.

I don’t care to argue about what people “really” are. The objective is to intercept people with gender dysphoria and provide therapy for them to learn to live comfortably in the only bodies they will ever have instead of pursuing mutilation into a semblance of what they can never be. That includes not teaching children that believing they are a sex other than that of their bodies is normal.

The Jesus who died and came back to life and is a god isn’t real.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I don’t care to argue about what people “really” are.

Yeah, you just want to argue that some people deserve less bodily autonomy, less access to their civil rights, and less of a decent existence altogether based on who they are, how they identify, and how you personally feel about those two facts.

Fuck off, fascist.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Except that we already have plenty of terms for that. There is literally no reason to make use of a different existing term that means something rather specific.

Also, you’re literally the only one who has ever used the term “grooming” that way, and it doesn’t even apply here because encouraging someone to be themselves (literally the only thing LGBTQ+ do about children, if anything) is not going against their own interests.

David says:

Re:

Is the word “grooming” now a dog whistle phrase?

It sort of has been coined as a dog whistle in LGBTQ+ contexts. I have to point out that drag performances do not even fall into this class, so we need sort of a dog whistle to draw the connection in a convincing manner. Did I say “convincing”? I meant “conniving”.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bobson Dugnutt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Grooming fell victim to Space Roaching

I’ve called this invasion of discourse the Space Roach approach to language, or Space Roaching for short.

Think back to the villain in the first “Men in Black” movie. It’s a roachlike alien that invades Earth by devouring a farmer and wearing his skin as a costume.

This is what rightwingers do with a language. They take a word, like grooming, which has a meaning and intention within psychology and law, devour the original meaning and substitute their own meaning and intention (i.e., non-cishet people are sexually voracious and predatory).

The rightwing intention is to weaponize the concept of grooming to control the conversation and debate about sexuality, while we are supposed to pretend that the meaning of grooming had never changed and we’re arguing over the same thing.

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This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bloof (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

They always resort to ‘Think of the children!?’. They did it to fight desegregation, they do it to fight non Christian immigration (Muslim grooming gangs, child blood drinking Jews from the Protocols of the elders of Zion), they absolutely did it to LGBTQ+ people before a brief respite in the 2000s, they did it to cultural and religious outsiders with the Satanic Panic, they’re doing it against the entire political left with qAnon… All while doing nothing about organisations with long track records of systemic enabling of child abuse and protecting the people responsible.

David says:

Re:

“constitutional muster”? Why do you they are working on turning the Supreme Court into an echo chamber? Echo chambers are where the real change happens. To make progress, you have to toss your mooring.

A 6:3 conservative majority has been able to toss Roe vs Wade not so much because they had 6:3 votes but because they had 6:3 discussions and were able to reassure themselves of being right (ok, it was more like 5:3 with Roberts being sort of queasy about being just as blatantly corrupt).

That’s why De Santis is teasing 7:2 conservative majorities: nobody needs 7:2 for voting purposes. But for corrupting and manipulating the court, you want to eliminate dissenting voices from the court’s deliberations.

So pardon me if I find your invocation of “constitutional muster” anything but reassuring. That bulwark of sanity is rotting away fast.

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David says:

Re: Re: Re:

Bodily autonomy is not really a Supreme Court invention. Taking it away is something that religions like to do. The U.S. Constitution, however, defines a secular government and is quite explicit that it defines the scope of goverment reach, and also declares that it considers Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness to be among inalienable rights.

So it is weird to state that the Supreme Court “created” a right by stating that the government does not get to control the bodily functions of their constituents.

What’s next on your agenda? Banning contraceptives, prohibiting tattoos, body piercings and lipstick since there is no right to them spelled out in the Constitution and the Supreme Court has no business allowing them?

This is just a severe misunderstanding of what the Constitution is about.

What Roe v Wade was about was trying to draw the line after which unborn life is awarded constitutional protections separate from a body part of its mother, and the Supreme Court drew the line at viability, the time where unborn life has a chance of surviving separated from the body of its mother.

That is not “creating a right to abortion” since abortion as a medical procedure performed on the mother when done on her behalf is not under the purview of the Constitution to start with.

Rather it is defining when and where the scope of individual non-citizen protection (because a national identity is only established at birth) of a life starts.

And Clarence Thomas has already made clear in his concurrence that he is aiming for taking away the rights for contraception, gay marriage and other facets of life summarised as facets of “rights to privacy” next and considers them fair game.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Given that liberals have criminalized conversion therapy in places where they have control of the government, not to mention trying to outlaw the sale of menthol cigarettes, the claim that liberals support bodily autonomy is laughable.

If you want a constitutional right to abortion, pass an amendment granting that right. Hallucinating new rights into the constitution because you want them to exist without the consensus of the people is always a fraught activity, as you are discovering now that the Supreme Court does not hold the same beliefs about certain rights that you do. It is the job of the legislative and executive branches to express the will of the people by passing laws that represent it, not the courts.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

This is so fucking stupid. I’m a libertarian but the moral difference between banning harmful practices and banning healthcare is blindingly obvious. Then again I’m guessing you’re one of those people who thinks like, vaccine mandates are the height of oppression (eg somebody who has likely never experienced any oppression, lol).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Since the essential question of abortion is whether a fetus is a person, you being a libertarian is irrelevant. If the fetus is a person, killing it is unquestionably a “harmful practice”, not “healthcare”. Your opinion of the personhood of a fetus is not binding on anyone else, and people who regard the fetus as a person may feel justified in preventing its killing even if the woman carrying it does not want it and even (or especially) if they’re libertarians.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_perspectives_on_abortion

David says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Well, the question is when does the life of an unborn organism take priority over their mother’s bodily autonomy? For organ donors, we answer this question as “not over their dead bodies”. If you don’t agree to be an organ donor and a person’s life depends on one of their your organs and you have died and have no further use for them or any inconvenience, they still don’t get to live.

In a similar vein, nobody can be forced to donate blood or bone marrow even if their particular makeup is the only one saving them.

A biological father cannot be forced to agree to a live-saving bone marrow transplant for his living child if he does not want to.

Yet the biological mother should be forced to agree to rent out her body for nine months.

Note that “pro-life” is a euphemism since “pro-lifers” are not focused on making it easier for mothers to have and raise a child. They want to force her on having it, no matter how much hardship that would entail.

As a result, a “pro-life” fanatically religious nation like the U.S. has much higher abortion rates than an unapologetically pro-choice nation like the Netherlands.

Criminalizing abortion is not really a good means for preventing it. It is a good means for conveying that a women’s status as a person has to take a backseat over a women’s status as a breeder.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 'Financial assistence for new mothers/children? That's socialism, eww!'

Note that “pro-life” is a euphemism since “pro-lifers” are not focused on making it easier for mothers to have and raise a child. They want to force her on having it, no matter how much hardship that would entail.

Hence why the more appropriate label would probably be pro-birth rather than pro-life. They will fight tooth and nail to ensure birth even if that means stripping bodily autonomy from a woman the second they get pregnant but the moment birth occurs all the concern over the ‘sanctity of life’ seems to vanish into thin air.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

They will fight tooth and nail to ensure birth even if that means stripping bodily autonomy from a woman the second they get pregnant

Even worse: They’ll fight to ensure birth even if it means the mother has to die. All those abortion bans popping up around the country⁠—and the stories of women having to wait until they’re on death’s door to finally receive medical attention that followed those bans⁠—prove as much. The grand irony of the “pro-life” position: In a state with an abortion ban, it’s likely easier for a woman to buy an AR-15 (the weapon of choice for mass shootings!) than get a life-saving abortion.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

There is no requirement that people have consistent philosophies. Many people have sets of visceral beliefs formed through a lifetime of experience that are difficult to change. You can try to convince them that they’re being illogical, but it probably won’t work.

Some of that failure will be due to other issues the same people support. If you don’t want to defund the police and you think that transwomen are men, and the same people are telling you that abortion should be legal, you might consider that they’re wrong about that too.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Those “some people” happen to not include me. As I have explained before, I am generally pro-death. I favor abortion on demand and with no apology, including if the pregnant woman just wants a child of the other sex, or if the fetus has a genetic or developmental issue. I include allowing the killing of severely deformed babies shortly after birth. I favor voluntary euthanasia, provided that there are enough safeguards in place to prevent “killing granny for the money”. I favor capital punishment and think that it should be administered much more swiftly and to more people. I favor “stand your ground” laws and think that rioters, looters, and arsonists should be met with up to deadly force if they refuse to desist from their activities and surrender to authorities.

I also believe that a woman who knowingly carries a fetus with genetic or developmental problems to term had the same moral status as a person who takes a newborn infant and deliberately damages them in the same way.

So basically, I like the same things that the demon-possessed murderer in [Nefarious] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefarious_(film)) likes, even though that movie is supposed to make you not like those things.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

I can no longer tell if your bullshit is an act designed to troll this site or if you’re actually a deranged sociopathic fascist who genuinely believes calling yourself “pro-death”, all but advocating for genocide, and comparing yourself to a fictional demon-possessed murderer are good things. Either way, you need some serious and legitimate psychiatric help. Please seek it.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If you don’t want to defund the police and you think that transwomen are men, and the same people are telling you that abortion should be legal, you might consider that they’re wrong about that too.

I mean, that’s a pretty big “if” right there, especially since many libertarians (like this one) would be perfectly fine with the former and not care about the latter, and “defund the police” was never something most liberals were pushing hard to begin with, especially as most tend to think of it. Sure, there is diversity of thought among any demographic, but that strikes both ways.

At any rate, these arguments are somewhat independent from each other. You can easily buy one but not the others. And two of them aren’t even factual claims but personal opinions.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Since the essential question of abortion is whether a fetus is a person, you being a libertarian is irrelevant.

It actually isn’t “the essential question of abortion.” People who talk about bodily autonomy in this context note that it means no part of their body can be used to support the life of someone else without their consent, period. And, indeed, you cannot force someone to donate blood, semen, eggs, or organs to another person even if that person will die if they don’t. Many pro-choice people state that that argument also extends to unborn people, not just living people, so women cannot be forced to allow a fetus to siphon off nutrients and other things from their body.

Moreover, when two people’s rights conflict, there is the question of what takes priority. Early on in the pregnancy, the fetus is basically just a bunch of cells, with no consciousness or a brain capable of receiving signals from their sensory organs. As such, there is an argument to be made that the woman’s rights take priority. And with late-term abortions, they are almost never elective, which means these are performed almost solely because a) the fetus is already dead, b) the fetus formed in such a way that they will not survive outside the mother’s womb basically at all, c) the mother will likely die if an abortion is not performed, and/or d) the mother will almost certainly become infertile if an abortion is not performed. A dead or non-viable human doesn’t have rights that outweigh the rights of the living if they did not articulate their position while conscious and alive, and the mother should be the one to decide whether her health or her potential child’s health is more important.

On top of that, parents are often the ones to make decisions for their children, and it’s often an inverse relation between the age of the child and the authority of the parent. As such, one could argue that, for a brand-new, unborn fetus, parental authority—and, thus, their ability to make decisions on behalf of their children—is at its highest.

Notice that none of these arguments require asserting that a fetus is not a person at all. That’s because that isn’t, in fact, the “essential question of abortion” but just one of many points of disagreement; it’s not even the biggest one, as many pro-choice people don’t even bother with that.

Your opinion of the personhood of a fetus is not binding on anyone else, and people who regard the fetus as a person may feel justified in preventing its killing even if the woman carrying it does not want it and even (or especially) if they’re libertarians.

Libertarians are far less likely to take the stance that the moral views of some should dictate what someone else should be allowed to do, at least not legally, so that’s not really something that’s true at all for libertarians.

And, again, personhood isn’t really that big of a factor here, and a number of abortions are performed because they are necessary, not because the mother-to-be doesn’t want the baby.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

There are religious issues tied up here, so calling the fetus a bunch of cells is irrelevant for people who believe the fetus is an ensouled being. You may not believe that, but other people do. Some people also believe there’s a difference between actively killing another person and letting them die by refusing to help them. (That’s easily seen from the number of people who engage in leisure activities rather than using that money to help the starving poor of the world.)

All of this has been argued endlessly. The fact remains that libertarians do not have a single view about abortion, so saying “I’m a libertarian therefore…” is meaningless.

David says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Well, it’s a step up from the Old Testament which proscribes torturing gays to death rather than torturing them into not being gay. Of course, the former is more likely to succeed but the U.S. Constitution has a word to say about “cruel and unusual punishment” so you’d first have to establish this punishment as usual again.

With the Republican Party, this is work in progress. For now, the focus is on increasing the suicide rate.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bloof (profile) says:

Re:

Fortunately for the right they have a supreme court majority where justified are handpicked by right wing groups for their political bias rather than competence and understanding of the law, who are prepared to handhold right wing litigants and explain how to nibble away at the laws and agencies they want destroyed or what to change about utterly abhorrent laws on things like abortion to make them legal until they get the chance to overturn established precedent entirely.

This isn’t performative, these laws will be overturned the first time round, with advice given for what the conservative judges will need to hear next time to let them pass as part of a push to do to gay rights what they just did to abortion, environmental protections, voting rights…

David says:

Re: Re:

In short: this is not about passing constitutional muster, it is about passing the current Supreme Court, and if you want to improve your chances for passing, it probably makes more sense to consult a Conservative (with capital “C” to indicate the pejorative rather than literal meaning of the word) megadonor rather than a constitutional scholar.

To avoid that impression, there was a time when the Supreme Court tried being comparatively conservative (lower-case “c”) about overturning its own precedent and lying to the nomination committees.

Valis (profile) says:

It's a tiny minority driving all this hate.

The Heritage Foundation, Alliance Defending Freedom, and the Family research Foundation are the groups behind ALL of these bills. That’s why they are all written using the same language, they are cut and pasted from templates provided by these groups.

Unfortunately they have a disproportionate amount of power in a non-democracy like the USA.
They would never get away with this in a democratic country.

David says:

Re:

If you can prescribe the public bathroom to use based on your chromosomes, I don’t see what keeps you from prescribing the clothes you are permitted to perform in in public based on your chromosomes.

Mind you, it’s not me who claims either idea is anything but ludicrous. I just point out where some people apparently are quite prepared to admit wanting to go.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re:

If you can prescribe the public bathroom to use based on your chromosomes, I don’t see what keeps you from prescribing the clothes you are permitted to perform in in public based on your chromosomes.

Well, you can’t.

“10. Does an employer have the right to have separate, sex-segregated bathrooms, locker rooms, or showers for men and women?

Yes. Courts have long recognized that employers may have separate bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers for men and women, or may choose to have unisex or single-use bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers. The Commission has taken the position that employers may not deny an employee equal access to a bathroom, locker room, or shower that corresponds to the employee’s gender identity.[6] In other words, if an employer has separate bathrooms, locker rooms, or showers for men and women, all men (including transgender men) should be allowed to use the men’s facilities and all women (including transgender women) should be allowed to use the women’s facilities.”

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/protections-against-employment-discrimination-based-sexual-orientation-or-gender

wanting to go.

Wanting to go, sure, but I was talking about legality.

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