Twitter Briefly Pretended To Take A Stand Against Hate, But Then Elon Admitted It Was All A Mistake (Or A Marketing Campaign?)

from the every-wrong-ove dept

Back when I wrote the blog post detailing the basic content moderation learning curve speedrun, I actually thought that, like most sites that go through it, Elon might actually learn from it. Yet, it appears he still has trouble processing lessons from basically any of the mistakes he makes. Or he seems to be trying to leverage his own nonsense into helping his friends.

Yesterday was a weird one on Twitter, and that’s saying something given how weird and pointless the site has been of late.

On Thursday morning, the CEO of a nonsense peddling website who doesn’t deserve to be named, took to Twitter to whine that Twitter was suppressing “conservative” speech. Apparently, that website had worked out a deal with Twitter to host a very silly excuse for a documentary that serves no purpose other than to push forward a hateful, harassing culture war. The documentary came out last year, and got exactly the kind of bad attention its creators wanted, which is why we see no reason to name it here either. If you don’t know what it is, trust me, it’s exactly the kind of nonsense you think it is, focused on driving mockery and hatred towards people based on their identity.

As part of Elon’s big new push to host video (which has resulted in lots of infringing movies uploaded to the site, and a surprising lack of lawsuits from Hollywood so far), Twitter and the nonsense peddling website had agreed to post the full documentary to Twitter, with some unclear promises of promotion. However, after the team at Twitter viewed a screener of the movie, they told the nonsense peddler that while the film could still be hosted on Twitter, they would limit its reach while labeling it (accurately) as “hateful conduct.”

To some extent, this was bound to happen. Remember, so much of this mess today is because a bunch of Trumpist crybabies insisted that basic moderation was ideological “censorship” of conservatives, even though actual studies showed that Twitter went out of their way to promote conservatives over others, and to let them avoid punishment for breaking the rules. But the Trumpist crew must, at all times, play the snowflake victim. They have no actual policy principles, so all they have is “these other people are trying to oppress us” despite that not being even remotely true. Hell, the whole movie at issue here is more of that very same thing. The underlying premise is that because some people ask you to treat them with respect, “the libs” are trying to oppress you. It’s nonsense.

Either way, there was, just briefly, this moment where it looked like maybe Twitter staff recognized that posting such whiny, hate-inspiring content wasn’t good for business. After all, just last month, the company had updated its “Hateful Conduct policy” which still includes rules against promoting “hostility and malice against others” based on a number of categories, including “gender identity.” And the policy makes it clear that this includes video content as well.

As such, it’s not hard to see how the film in question would violate that policy.

Of course, that was until the boss found out what was going on… and then made it clear he disagreed with the decision.

Elon’s quote is as follows:

This was a mistake by many people at Twitter. It is definitely allowed.

Whether or not you agree with using someone’s preferred pronouns, not doing so is at most rude and certainly breaks no laws.

I should note that I do personally use someone’s preferred pronouns, just as I use someone’s preferred name, simply from the standpoint of good manners.

However, for the same reason, I object to rude behavior, ostracism or threats of violence if the wrong pronoun or name is used.

While he’s correct that it does not violate any laws in the US (in some countries it might), Twitter’s written policy says nothing at all about content needing to break the law to get visibility filtering.

And, again, remember that Musk himself keeps talking about “freedom of speech, not freedom of reach” and the company has said repeatedly that it will limit the visibility of content they believe violates their policy. And it appears that’s exactly what was happening here. The trust & safety team (what little is left of it) determined that this film violated the policies on promoting hostility and malice towards people for their gender identity, and, in response, allowed the film to still be posted on Twitter, but with limited reach.

All of that is clearly within Twitter’s stated policies under Elon Musk (all of those policies have been updated in the last two months under Musk).

So I’m not at all clear how Musk can be claiming that this was a “mistake.” Part of the problem is that he seems to think (incorrectly) that Twitter said the film wasn’t allowed at all, rather than just visibility filtered. But then… he basically says it shouldn’t be filtered either. Because someone pointed out that when a clip from the film was posted to Twitter, it had a label about visibility filtering, saying that the content may violate Twitter’s rules against Hateful Conduct, and Elon said it was “being fixed.”

But then things got even odder. After first claiming it was a mistake and was “being fixed,” a little while later he seemed to double back again and admit that the original designation was correct, and that it would be “advertising-restricted” which would “impact reach to some degree.”

A little later, after another nonsense peddler whined that the film was still being visibility filtered, Elon said that “we’re updating the system tomorrow so that those who follow” the nonsense peddler website “will see this in their feed, but it won’t be recommended to non-followers (nor will any advertising be associated with it).

Which, uh, sounds exactly like what the nonsense peddler website was told originally, and which Elon had originally said “was a mistake by many people at Twitter,” despite it (1) clearly following the policies that Elon himself had previously agreed on and (2) matching his claimed “freedom of speech, not freedom of reach” concept. So, which is it? Is it just Elon talking out of both sides of his mouth yet again?

Or… the alternative, which some people are suggesting: Elon thinks that pretending to “suppress” this film would drive more views of it. Which seems to be supported by him claiming that “The Streisand Effect on this will set an all-time record!”

As the person who coined the Streisand Effect in the first place, I can assure you, this is not how any of this works. But either way the whole thing is stupid (and also why we’re not naming the film or the website, because if this is all a stupid attempt to create a fake Streisand Effect, there’s no reason we should help).

And, either way, this morning Elon insisted that all the visibility filtering had been lifted and the only limitation would be whether or not advertising would appear next to it:

He later tweeted a direct link to the film itself, promoting a tweet from the nonsense peddling website insisting (little fucking snowflakes that they are) that it’s the film “they don’t want you to see.”

Basically, a manufactured martyrdom controversy, combined with Twitter pretending to stand up to encouraging hatred, only for Musk to double down that hate has a comfy, welcoming home on Twitter.

Of course, in the midst of all this, the news came out that Ella Irwin, who had been leading trust & safety since relatively early in the Elon Musk reign, and who had been on Twitter through Wednesday directly responding to trust & safety requests, had resigned and was no longer at the company. It’s unclear if her resignation had anything to do with this mess, but the timing does seem notable.

Still, given all of this, is it really any wonder that advertisers like Ben & Jerry’s have announced that they’re ending all paid advertising on the site in response to the proliferation of hate speech?

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Companies: daily wire, twitter

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Comments on “Twitter Briefly Pretended To Take A Stand Against Hate, But Then Elon Admitted It Was All A Mistake (Or A Marketing Campaign?)”

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292 Comments
David says:

Re: Well, that's a basic Christian tenet

Don’t return in kind, but return in kindness. That’s definitely what the gospel preaches.

The thing is that Christ’s idea was “do as I preach”, not “preach as I preach”, and the latter has become a whole lot more popular in Christianity than the former.

The term of art is “hypocrisy” and Elon Musk is wearing a black belt in it.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Do I need to point out the death threats and harassment the right has sent to targets of their “boycotts”? Like with Target?

The point is that the right has a tendency to call advocacy for boycotts from the left (among other things) “cancel culture”, but they call what they do “boycotts” even when they do so much more. This is hypocrisy, plain and simple.

To be clear, even when the left does, in fact, do nothing more than boycott something and ask others to do so, the right tends to call it “cancel culture”, but they refuse to extend that label to themselves when they do exactly the same thing and then some. That’s the problem.

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Anonymous Coward says:

The film is “What Is A Woman?” and it mocks the beliefs of woke gender ideology. Having references to it not be canceled on Twitter is why those of us who decry viewpoint-based censorship were happy with Musk’s purchase of Twitter, regardless of how he’s managed it since.

Once upon a time, a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed. Now it’s strictly sticking fingers in ears and yelling “I can’t hear you!” How amazingly petty.

You can’t hide from the fact that people can only ever be the sex of their bodies, no matter how much you pretend that majorities of people aren’t saying that.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed

“We should allow queer children to be tortured against their will in the hopes that they’ll stop being queer” is not a “viewpoint”, Hyman. That’s the problem with all your bullshit: Your “viewpoints” aren’t even really worth debating because they all boil down to some form of hatred for the Repugnant Cultural Other of your choice that advocates for social exile at best and their complete eradication at worst. And if you want to say that you’re not advocating for the worst-case scenario there, you’re still on the side of the people who are⁠—even if, as you claim, you’re not on “their side” despite how much your rhetoric sounds like theirs.

When you want to talk about the best way to prevent a recession or what Tarantino movie is his best work, that’s a debate. When you want to talk how to best keep trans people out of public life, that’s not a debate⁠—it’s a call to arms. Being polite about your hatred, or using $10 words to describe your 10¢ bigotry, doesn’t make you or your ideology any more “acceptable”. You don’t deserve debate; you deserve to be shunned. The only reasons you aren’t is because Mike isn’t willing to kill anonymous posting here and you want to keep being an asshole despite being told to stop what you’re doing. (I’d bet good money that you’ve ignored at least one woman who told you the same thing.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You’re right. My wife hates my off-key humming and tells me to stop, but sometimes I don’t.

No matter how much you hate it and wish it were otherwise, people can only ever be the sex of their bodies. Many people find themselves in despair over not being the thing they want to be, but no amount of sadness can change physical reality. And no amount of being lied to by other people can change physical reality.

Woke gender ideology has become a parody of itself, with angry men physically attacking women who correctly tell them that they can never be women, and young girls having their bodies destroyed because they have been convinced that they can be something besides women. For all the harm you claim is done by conversion therapy, at least it doesn’t involve mutilating the bodies of its attendees. It’s funny that you and your ilk like to call me a Nazi when you are following in the footsteps of Dr. Mengele (and Dr. Moreau – Are we not men? No, you’re not.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

with angry men physically attacking women who correctly tell them that they can never be women, and young girls having their bodies destroyed because they have been convinced that they can be something besides women

And pray-tell how many of these cases are you personally familiar with, such that you can’t control your compulsion to tell us about what you think?

In other words, how many young people’s genitals have you personally verified as ‘destroyed?’

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

That’s not how it works. Provide actual evidence, not just inference.

Moreover, “nonzero” doesn’t mean “common enough to worry about”. And there’s also the question of how many of them actually regret it later in life to show that it’s actually a problem.

Also, most (if not all) of the attacked anti-trans bills go beyond just surgeries but also targeted hormonal treatments and puberty blockers, among others, so it only shows that a nonzero number of younger people get some sort of medical treatment to transition. And they also generally target anyone under 18, not just those under, say, 15, where such things might be relatively problematic. As such, it could be the case that the only ones who do get surgery or something are 16 or 17 or something, where we might not consider it such a problem.

So yeah, your assertion isn’t backed up by the outrage you point to.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

It really isn’t. The Times has been reporting on trans issues for months in a way that leans more towards siding with the bigots than with the actual trans people those bigots are trying to hurt. That article linked above is an outlier compared to the normal Times approach to reporting on trans issues.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Your argument is the same as arguing that because alcoholics exist, nobody should be allowed to drink. That is using exceptions rather than the majority to arrive at a reason to stop something. Such policy making always ends up hurting more people than it helps.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

This still doesn’t support your point. At best, it only demonstrates that some people who go through FtM transitions later regret it and detransition, and that some of them were pressured into transitioning.

Given the numbers involved, this is unsurprising. That doesn’t justify complete bans on the treatments altogether any more than the fact that some people get killed in hunting accidents justifies banning hunting, that some people with certain medical conditions die from vaccines justifies banning vaccines in all cases, that some people misuse the internet justifies banning the internet for minors, that some medical treatments are improperly or unethically done in some cases justifies banning those and other treatments in those and other cases, or that some people do bad things while drunk justifies banning all alcohol. Heck, according to your own source, most transgender people and medical experts roundly object to the ban, so the source is weak support at best for the reasons behind the ban in the first place!

More importantly, though, I was asking for evidence of a wider trend. That requires, y’know, data, not just anecdotes. Given that my objection was that this doesn’t show a trend or significant number of problematic cases, and that the bills in question go far beyond these problematic cases and ban less-problematic cases as well, this article does nothing to address my points. If anything, it tends to support it.

I don’t need proof that the number of problem cases isn’t zero. I already knew that. I also knew that the number of people who detransition is nonzero, so demonstrating that was also unnecessary. I was asking for proof that it is a significant enough problem to justify such extreme measures. Specifically, I want actual data.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The bills are wrong, because sex- change mutilation, like conversion therapy, should be an individual decision between the patient, his or her guardians as appropriate, and a doctor who is a true believer or greedy charlatan.

Just like criminalizing conversion therapy, outlawing sex-change treatments is performative. Such bans aren’t meant to help anyone. They’re meant to punish the other side for wrongthink.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Just like criminalizing conversion therapy, outlawing sex-change treatments is performative. Such bans aren’t meant to help anyone. They’re meant to punish the other side for wrongthink.

Let me make this as clear as I can to you, Hyman.

If a person who is conflicted about their sexual identity wants to seek therapy for those feelings, they should have every right to seek an actual therapist with an actual license to practice actual therapy. They should have every right to discuss with that therapist all of their feelings on the matter⁠—including the pressures from their family, friends, and broader community to conform into being someone they aren’t, as well as how their identity conflicts with their religious beliefs. That’s what therapy is for.

That’s not what “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is.

“Conversion ‘therapy’ ”, which is also known by several other names, is not an actual form of therapy. While actual medical and scientific groups may not say so out of fear of lawsuits or whatever, in layman’s terms, “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is torture. Specifically, it uses aversive treatments⁠—mostly psychological, some physical⁠—to break a person down into the psychological equivalent of Silly Putty before attempting to “reform” them in a way where they align with cishet norms. This “therapy” often results in long-term psychological trauma, regardless of whether the “patient” is deemed to have been successfully converted.

The scientific consensus on “conversion ‘therapy’ ” says the practice is ineffective at best and incredibly harmful at worst. “Conversion ‘therapy’ ” as it stands today is largely the domain of conservative religious zealots. That’s why I keep saying that “success” for such “therapy” depends on whether it results in one less queer person in the world. That the result may come from a “patient” dying by suicide⁠—including in the middle of their “treatment”!⁠—is still considered a “success” to those assholes. And that’s not even getting into how minors can be pressured or even outright forced against their will into undergoing this “therapy” by parents who want their child “fixed”.

The mix of religious belief and sexual identity can be fraught with complexities that only those who face them can truly understand. If actual legitimate therapy helps them cope with those complexities, great. But “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is not legitimate therapy⁠—it is a form of religious indoctrination via psychological torture that disguises itself as therapy and falsely claims to be able to “cure” queerness. Anyone willing to support the idea that “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is a legitimate form of therapy despite the broad scientific consensus that says otherwise doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously on the matter. If anything, their support for “conversion ‘therapy’ ” marks them as someone who supports a violent religious crusade against queer people…even if they say otherwise (as I’m sure you will).

Now please, try again to convince everyone here that “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is actual therapy that produces actual effective results. Then explain how, given your distaste for both “woke gender ideology” and indoctrination, “conversion ‘therapy’ ” isn’t a form of violent religious indoctrination into a radical gender ideology.

I’ll wait.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-whether-conversion-therapy-can-alter-sexual-orientation-without-causing-harm/

As I have said, the problem with assessing the success of conversion therapy is that people who have successful outcomes aren’t going to talk about it, because they tend to be part of communities where admitting to non-heterosexual orientation is problematic, even when they have learned to overcome it. The people you hear from are those who have failed to change their orientation and who have failed to live comfortably in their community. It’s not surprising that such people may have psychological difficulties, perhaps related to the conversion therapy, perhaps not. It’s not dissimilar to people who leave tight-knit religious communities for other reasons.

Exposure therapy is one treatment used to overcome phobias. You could characterize exposing people with arachnophobia to spiders as a form of torture too, but that does not make it ineffective. Futhermore, “broad consensus” in psychology isn’t worth the air it’s written on. Psychology is barely science, and consensus is political, not scientific. Once the politics of sexuality became such that queerness was considered normal, it became forbidden to try to change people’s orientation even if that’s what they wanted.

In any case, criminalizing a form of therapy, even when many people believe it doesn’t work and think it’s evil, gets you what you deserve – criminalizing forms of therapy that you like that other people think don’t work and are evil. If you want delusional young women to be given mastectomies, you’re going to have to tolerate young gay men snapping rubber bands on their wrists.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

As I have said, the problem with assessing the success of conversion therapy is that people who have successful outcomes aren’t going to talk about it,

Clutching at straws there, as real therapists follow up with their patients so that they can evaluate how well any therapy is in the long term. Also, how much of the success is someone staying in the closet because they want to avoid being tortured again?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

How much of success is not being a criminal because you’re afraid of going to prison again? How much of success is not committing adultery because you’re afraid your spouse will kick you out? A lot of pro-social behavior is dictated by dear of consequences. That’s how people roll.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

A lot of pro-social behavior is dictated by [f]ear of consequences.

This implies that you think of queerness as “anti-social behavior” that should always face “consequences”. So please, tell me exactly what “consequences” a gay man should face for kissing his partner in public. I’ll wait.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Subjective opinions informed by religious zealotry are not, and should not be, the basis upon which we take away someone’s liberty.

There’s nothing subjective about homosexual deviance.

And to be clear, I’m advocating for liquidating LGBTQ+ people, and not just putting them into concentration camps.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

There’s nothing subjective about homosexual deviance.

The term “deviance” is inherently subjective, so yes, there absolutely is.

And to be clear, I’m advocating for liquidating LGBTQ+ people, and not just putting them into concentration camps.

We know. And very few people would agree with you. I don’t know why you wanted to make that clear, as it only makes your point weaker, not stronger.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

In the communities where conversion therapy is suggested, such kissing would result in ostracism from the community. It’s not a matter of what someone should face, but a matter of what someone would face. You’re doing that “show me that you don’t know how deeply religious communities work without telling me that you don’t know how deeply religious communities work” thing. In some extremely observant Jewish communities, for example, someone thinking that you might have used the wrong dish can result in no one being willing to eat at your house.

If you don’t care about continuing to be a part of the community, kiss away. But if you do, you’re not going to do things that will make you be shunned. And there are many people who do want to remain in these communities even when they have same-sex attractions, because they find value in doing so, and because leaving gives rise to other difficulties.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Oh, you dumb bitch.

the problem with assessing the success of conversion therapy is that people who have successful outcomes aren’t going to talk about it

Not really. If someone is so incredibly happy to be “cured” of being queer, they’re likely to say as much⁠—and so are their “therapists”, who would want to show proof that they can “cure” queerness as if being queer is a disease.

they tend to be part of communities where admitting to non-heterosexual orientation is problematic, even when they have learned to overcome it

That you see queerness of any kind as something to “overcome” says a lot about you. None of it is good.

Besides, if an anti-queer community sees someone who has ostensibly “cured” themselves of their queerness as “problematic”, that kind of shits all over the idea that people can be “cured” of queerness. I mean, if the anti-queer brigade truly believed in that “cure”, wouldn’t they be wholly accepting of anyone who claims to have been “cured” of being queer?

The people you hear from are those who have failed to change their orientation and who have failed to live comfortably in their community.

You say this as if you believe two things:

  1. It’s possible to change your sexual orientation by sheer fucking will (and a little help from literal torture), and
  2. It’s impossible for a queer person to live comfortably within anything but a full-throated queer-only community.

Neither belief would speak well of you.

It’s not surprising that such people may have psychological difficulties, perhaps related to the conversion therapy, perhaps not.

Okay but “conversion ‘therapy’ ” has been compared (rightfully) to torture by its survivors. The people who practice it exclusively target a vulnerable minority (queer people) for “conversion” into “normalcy”, then psychologically break down their victims until they’re ready to be “reformed” as “normal” and “right” and…well, as “an actual person” instead of “a filthy fucking faggot”. (And yes, I’m using that word uncensored to make a point.) If you don’t think literal torture results in psychological issues that would likely require actual therapy to address, you’re out of your fucking mind.

Exposure therapy is one treatment used to overcome phobias.

“Conversion ‘therapy’ ” is not “exposure therapy”. Emotional/psychological conflicts between religious beliefs and sexual identity are not, per se, “phobias”. And queer people don’t need to be “fixed” or “cured” of being queer no matter how much you want to imply (or outright claim) otherwise, you hateful son of a bitch.

You could characterize exposing people with arachnophobia to spiders as a form of torture too

If it’s done in a way that’s meant to unravel a person into the psychological equivalent of Jell-O, sure. But exposure therapy doesn’t do that sort of thing.

Also: If you think queer people need “exposure” to heterosexual media and such to be “cured”, shouldn’t they already be “cured” by the time they supposedly need “conversion ‘therapy’ ” based on how most (if not all) of the media they’ve consumed in their lifetimes up to that point is focused on cisgender heterosexual people?

“broad consensus” in psychology isn’t worth the air it’s written on

If psychology in general is a pseudoscience, doesn’t that put a huge dent in the credibility of “conversion ‘therapy’ ”, which itself claims to be a psychological “cure” to queerness?

Once the politics of sexuality became such that queerness was considered normal, it became forbidden to try to change people’s orientation even if that’s what they wanted.

Except it’s not forbidden in a good chunk of the U.S.. So yes, someone can take their minor child to Texas and have them tortured against their will to stop being gay if that’s what a parent really wants to do to their child.

Also: Queerness is normal⁠—for queer people. Seeing it as a disease that needs “curing” is the realm of bigots like you.

criminalizing a form of therapy, even when many people believe it doesn’t work and think it’s evil, gets you what you deserve – criminalizing forms of therapy that you like that other people think don’t work and are evil

Gender-affirming treatments aren’t torture. It’s cute that you want to conflate the two so you (think you) can make your argument stronger. But it’s wrooooooooooooooooooooooong.

I also don’t see how banning a “practice” that has been described by its survivors as literal torture and intends to eradicate members of a vulnerable and marginalized minority is a bad thing. Perhaps you can outline what other forms of therapy affect people in the exact same way that “conversion ‘therapy’ ” affects its survivors (as well as the people who die by suicide during that “therapy”). Once you’ve done that, you can then explain why no such “therapy” exists that claims to do the opposite of what your average “conversion ‘therapist’ ” claims they can do⁠—i.e., that there is no “conversion ‘therapy’ ” for turning cishets into queer people.

I’ll wait.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

As I have said, the problem with assessing the success of conversion therapy is that people who have successful outcomes aren’t going to talk about it, because they tend to be part of communities where admitting to non-heterosexual orientation is problematic, even when they have learned to overcome it.

No, some alleged successes did talk about it. The problem is that they all later went back to being homosexual.

Also, given that it confirms their worldview, anti-queer communities would embrace ex-gays.

On top of that, it requires you to assume that every success was from such an anti-queer community, which is an unreasonable assumption without evidence.

The people you hear from are those who have failed to change their orientation and who have failed to live comfortably in their community.

Because that’s an impossible task.

It’s not surprising that such people may have psychological difficulties, perhaps related to the conversion therapy, perhaps not. It’s not dissimilar to people who leave tight-knit religious communities for other reasons.

No, because people who leave tight-knit religious communities don’t have a drastically increased suicide rate compared to those who stay.

Exposure therapy is one treatment used to overcome phobias.

Exposure therapy has nothing in common with conversion therapy.

You could characterize exposing people with arachnophobia to spiders as a form of torture too, but that does not make it ineffective.

Importantly, the people who receive exposure therapy do not characterize it as torture. If they don’t consider it torture, it’s not comparable.

Futhermore, “broad consensus” in psychology isn’t worth the air it’s written on. Psychology is barely science, and consensus is political, not scientific.

Yeah, you do realize that the broad consensus among all scientists doesn’t agree with you on that, right? Psychology is a science, and consensus isn’t political in nature, at least no more than other fields of science. Your refusal to accept it is science denial, nothing less.

Once the politics of sexuality became such that queerness was considered normal, it became forbidden to try to change people’s orientation even if that’s what they wanted.

Except that that is not how it happened. Conversion therapy was banned before queerness became considered normal, not after. It was banned because it did not work and because it was dangerous.

In any case, criminalizing a form of therapy, even when many people believe it doesn’t work and think it’s evil, gets you what you deserve – criminalizing forms of therapy that you like that other people think don’t work and are evil.

The two are incomparable. Conversion therapy demonstrably does not work ever. SRS demonstrably does work more often than not. Conversion therapy always does harm without doing any good from the patient’s perspective. SRS demonstrably does less physical and psychological harm and does do some good for the patient from their perspective. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

If you want delusional young women to be given mastectomies, you’re going to have to tolerate young gay men snapping rubber bands on their wrists.

  1. You have not demonstrated the existence of a delusion.
  2. Young women get mastectomies for multiple reasons, not all of which are related to being transgender.
  3. SRS isn’t about conforming to society. Conversion therapy, at least ostensibly, is.
  4. Conversion therapy demonstrably does not ever work. SRS demonstrably does at least some of the time.
  5. Once again, you clearly don’t understand how conversion therapy works.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

No matter how much you hate it and wish it were otherwise, people can only ever be the sex of their bodies.

Again, no one disputes this. No matter how much you don’t like what they do believe, transgender people and their advocates do not believe that sex is (currently, at least) mutable.

Woke gender ideology has become a parody of itself, with angry men physically attacking women who correctly tell them that they can never be women, […]

[citation needed]

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

woke gender ideologues

The only gender ideologue here is you, Hyman.

Consider this: From the day a child is born, their life will be dominated by media that centers heterosexuality and cisgender identities as the “standard” of all human existence. Even in today’s media climate, where new stories about queer people of all kinds are being made and promoted and ballyhooed by critics and audiences alike (coughreadthisishowyoulosethetimewarcough), the vast and overwhelming majority of all available media up to the moment you read this comment focuses on cishets.

Consider this: You and your ilk keep clamoring on and on about genetics and biology in re: sex. You also claim that gender and sex are the same thing. But if gender really is the same thing as sex, it would be innate and natural and not need any enforcing whatsoever.

Now consider these questions: If gender is truly innate, for what reason do so many nosy shitheads feel the need to enforce gender by policing (among other things) clothing/physical appearances as if those are the end-all be-all markers of gender and sex? If exposure to a single story about a single queer character is “indoctrination” into “woke gender ideology”, what would you call exposure to hundreds⁠—perhaps thousands!⁠—of hours of media to which a child will be exposed that are about cisgender straight people? And if “gender ideology” requires indoctrination for people to believe in it, how does the torturous practice of “conversion ‘therapy’ ” not engage in indoctrination of the “gender ideology” held by conservative Christians⁠—and for bonus points, how does that square away with the notion that gender and sex are the same innate human trait if such indoctrination is required to turn queer people into cishets?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Heterosexuality and belief that one is the sex of one’s body is standard and normal, so of course media should center that.

This Is How You Lose the Time War is a very good book. Why did you obfuscate the title?

Recent science-fiction and fantasy, which is pretty much all I read, is brimming with queer characters of all sorts, and is being written by queer authors of all sorts. I generally don’t object because the work is good and I can avoid the most egregious doctrinaire stuff, but it’s clear that publishing has been colonized by woke ideology. (I recommend Becky Chambers’ Monk and Robot series. The monk uses “they” pronouns with their gender not specified, the robot is a robot, and Chambers is lesbian. Actually, read everything by her. She writes wonderful books.)

Gender is the same as sex and does not need any enforcing. Indeed, enforcing sex or gender is a meaningless concept. You might as well claim to be enforcing gravity.

Some societies enforce gender roles. Those societies are bad.

Many people have taboos about mixing sexes in certain contexts. Deluded people who believe they are a sex different from that of their bodies should not be allowed to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them. This is not enforcing sex or gender. This is enforcing separation of sexes in the places where people want such separation.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Heterosexuality and belief that one is the sex of one’s body is standard and normal

“Normal” is an arbitrary number and “standard” is an average. That doesn’t mean other sexual identities are somehow unnatural/evil/a crime against nature. It means they’re outliers to the average⁠—nothing more or less.

This Is How You Lose the Time War is a very good book.

I’m surprised you were able to stomach a book about queer characters that didn’t end with someone torturing them into being cishet/killing them.

publishing has been colonized by woke ideology

No, it hasn’t. That more stories by/about queer people are being published doesn’t change the fact that the vast, overwhelming majority of creative works published in your lifetime have been, are, and always will be about cishet people. It’s much the same way with race, though I wouldn’t be surprised if you started bitching about how publishing has been “colonized” by “woke race ideology” because of The Hate U Give.

Gender is the same as sex and does not need any enforcing.

And yet, nosy busybodies are shoving their noses into other people’s business to do exactly that. Between bathroom bans, genital inspections for underage girls who want to play sports, (unconstitutional) drag bans, and all the other ways that those fussbuckets use to make people who are gender-nonconforming feel threatened enough to stay home, plenty of people do plenty of gender policing. You might not think it “necessary”, but if it weren’t⁠—if gender was innate and natural and in no actual need of policing⁠—for what reason would anyone need the government to pass a drag ban or shove its metaphorical hand down a child’s pants?

Some societies enforce gender roles. Those societies are bad.

Welcome to the United States of America, where we’ve been enforcing gender roles for centuries through everything from legal orders to mainstream media. You must be dumber than I thought if you’ve never considered how the media you’ve experienced influenced how you perceive gender roles⁠—or if you believe you were never influenced to begin with.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Given the colonization of publishing by woke ideology, especially in YA literature, I have read many books with queer characters and non-white characters, most of them good and enjoyable. Valiant Ladies is a fun and very loosely fact-based YA novel about Hispanic lesbian swordsgirls in Peru. Babel was a terrible fantasy novel about colonialism and micro-(and not so micro-)aggressions in England that somehow landed on everyone’s best of 2022 lists. Everything by T. J. Klune is gay-themed. Rainbow Rowell’s YA Simon Snow series centers a gay romance. A Half-Built Garden by Ruthanna Emrys takes pronouns to unimaginably ridiculous new levels.

Making sure that people cannot force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them is not enforcing sex. It is enforcing that people do not intrude where they do not belong. A club that enforces a door policy against you isn’t telling you how to behave. It is just telling you that you can’t come in. People are always the sex of their bodies. Inspections become necessary when people attempt to lie about their sex. When we card people at bars, we are not “enforcing age”. We are attempting to catch people who are lying about their age.

Drag bans are unconstitutional and are performative overreach by Republicans, just as bans on guns are unconstitutional performative overreach by Democrats.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Making sure that people cannot force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them is not enforcing sex. It is enforcing that people do not intrude where they do not belong.

Again, this is a meaningless distinction, especially since you are enforcing your definition of what make something a single-sex space by insisting on one specific interpretation of “gender”.

A club that enforces a door policy against you isn’t telling you how to behave.

Yes, it is.

It is just telling you that you can’t come in.

Yeah, which is telling them that their behavior cannot include coming through the door.

People are always the sex of their bodies.

No one disputes this.

Inspections become necessary when people attempt to lie about their sex.

Virtually no one lies about their sex to enter women-only spaces, and you know it. Also, demanding inspections to enter a restroom is an invasion of privacy and violates more taboos than what you are trying to stop.

When we card people at bars, we are not “enforcing age”. We are attempting to catch people who are lying about their age.

False equivalence. People lie about their age to get in bars; they don’t lie about their sex to enter women-only spaces. Also, the laws on age for entering bars are there for health safety reasons, not just arbitrary taboos.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Not the best company to keep to put it mildly

“Normal” is an arbitrary number and “standard” is an average. That doesn’t mean other sexual identities are somehow unnatural/evil/a crime against nature. It means they’re outliers to the average⁠—nothing more or less.

More than that both of those can and have changed over time. Just like ‘heterosexuality is the only acceptable sexuality to admit as existing’ was at one point ‘normal’ and ‘standard’ so too were the ideas that women belonged in the kitchen and out of the voting booth, that the only people who had value were rich white men, that racial mixing was an abomination and other similar ideas.

Trying to demonize trans people by claiming that it’s not ‘normal’ or ‘standard’ is to side with those who would have looked at the above ideas and insisted that of course they are right and should not be challenged since after all they’re what’s normal and standard.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Trying to demonize trans people by claiming that it’s not ‘normal’ or ‘standard’ is to side with those who would have looked at the above ideas and insisted that of course they are right and should not be challenged since after all they’re what’s normal and standard.

Such assholes tend to be part of, or at least nominally adjacent to, the American fascist movement that wants rollbacks of the social, political, and cultural progress of marginalized groups. The fall of Roe v. Wade was one such victory for those pricks.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Gender is the same as sex […]

Under your definitions, perhaps. Under the scientific definitions, no, it isn’t. More to the point, we’re talking about whether the things transgender people and pro-trans activists say are lies and/or delusions, so it is the definitions they use that are relevant here.

Gender […] does not need any enforcing. Indeed, enforcing sex or gender is a meaningless concept. You might as well claim to be enforcing gravity.

And yet you insist on enforcing your notion of gender when dealing with restrooms, locker rooms, sports, etc. If gender is truly like gravity, then there would be nothing to enforce there. Men would be incapable of entering women-only spaces, and women would be incapable of entering men-only spaces. The fact that that is not the case demonstrates that claiming to enforce gender or sex is incomparable to claiming to enforce gravity and that the concept of enforcing gender/sex is not a meaningless concept.

Some societies enforce gender roles. Those societies are bad.

I’m sorry, but who’s the one talking about enforcing gender roles in sports? Like it or not, that is absolutely enforcing gender roles.

More to the point, gender includes gender role, gender expression (not the same thing, as it relates to appearance, not just behavior), and gender identity.

Many people have taboos about mixing sexes in certain contexts.

Many other people have taboos about mixing genders (not your notion of gender; the notion used by scientists and pro-trans activists that includes gender expression and gender identity) in certain contexts. Why should the taboos you’re talking about trump these taboos?

Additionally, you still haven’t presented any evidence that, outside of prisons and those sports which involve activities that males statistically and biologically have an advantage in (so not locker rooms or restrooms, nor in sports like gymnastics where males do not have an advantage over females), there is a near-majority or higher number of women who have such taboos, and when it comes to being in groups, outside of direct contact or verbal/written communications, we generally don’t force everyone to abide by the taboos of a minority for general rules.

Also, without more, taboos alone don’t trump actual safety issues. That just isn’t how it works.

Deluded people who believe they are a sex different from that of their bodies […]

Again, you still haven’t pointed to a belief held by actual transgender people that is demonstrably false, and transgender people don’t believe they are a sex different from that of their bodies. You keep saying that they are and do, but simply saying that over and over doesn’t make it any more true. (Again, we are talking about the beliefs of transgender people, so we go by their definition of sex, not yours, here.)

Please, do provide evidence to the contrary in order to support these assertions, but as they are, the former is, at best, your personal opinion which we are under no obligation to agree with or accept as true and, at worst, demonstrably false (in the middle, it is undemonstrated), while the latter is just a bald assertion without any good evidence to support it.

And no, using medical treatments like HRT and SRS to make their body more similar to that of the opposite sex doesn’t show that they believe a true sex-change is actually possible, nor does their desire to enter women-only (for transwomen) or men-only (for transmen) spaces equate to a belief that they are of the sex typically corresponding to that space. The former is exactly what it says on the tin: a belief that having a body that is sufficiently similar to that of the opposite sex will make them feel better about themselves even if it isn’t a true sex-change. The latter is about being safer and/or either a belief that the space(s) is/are segregated by gender rather than sex or a belief that they should be segregated that way/a desire to change the rules.

None of these explanations involve a belief that their sex can actually change or be different from their body, so these facts fail to even imply, let alone demonstrate, that they believe their sex is not just of their body and/or that their sex can actually change with our current technology.

This is not enforcing sex or gender. This is enforcing separation of sexes in the places where people want such separation.

I mean, you still haven’t actually demonstrated the latter point, at least as to most women regarding restrooms, locker rooms, or sports that don’t give a competitive advantage to those who go through male puberty, but let’s set that aside for now.

This is a distinction without a meaningful difference. You are enforcing gender/sex by enforcing a separation between the two, as you are forcing your notions of how they should behave onto them based on solely their sex. Whether you think that is right or wrong, it is still enforcing sex or gender.

On top of that, you also support laws that ban not just SRS but most other forms of gender-affirming care, and not just on young children but on anyone under 18, even where the person truly wants it and goes through thorough discussions with medical specialists to ensure that they are sufficiently informed and genuinely want it, and even when the parent also gives consent. As such, even outside of the sex-segregated-spaces thing, you are also enforcing your notions of sex and gender on others in other ways. This makes your point rather moot.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Safety is irrelevant. The reason we have gender-segregated spaces is because the social, cultural, and religious taboos mandating them exist and are important to many people. That separation is based on sex, and the people interested in such segregation don’t care what people think about themselves, only what they are. You are welcome to try to convince people that they should not want this, but if you try to unilaterally change the meaning of the labels on the spaces so that they apply to delusions rather than bodies, you will see exactly the sort of pushback that we are currently experiencing.

The reason deluded people can’t force their way into single-sex spaces is that the people in the single-sex spaces were there first.

Enforcing gender is meaningless because people are whatever gender (which is the same as sex) they are. Preventing intrusion is not enforcing sex, it is stopping people from lying about their sex.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The reason we have gender-segregated spaces is because the social, cultural, and religious taboos mandating them exist and are important to many people.

If a space controlled by a given group of people wants to do things a certain way, so be it⁠—their house, their rules. But no one group’s “taboos” deserve to hold sway over everyone else⁠—especially to the point where they’re enforced by law. To say otherwise is to believe that Christians in the United States deserve to have their “taboos” enshrined into law even if that infringes on the lives and rights of non-Christians. (Fuck “blue laws”, by the way.) I don’t think even you are so far gone that you’re willing to believe in that proposition.

Enforcing gender is meaningless

You need to believe “enforcing gender is meaningless” if you want everyone else to believe it. You’re trying awfully hard to enforce other people’s genders by saying “gender and sex are the same” and saying that everyone who doesn’t agree with you must suffer the pain of your perpetual and relentless harassment. So if your actions prove that you don’t believe what you’re saying…well, maybe consider why that makes you a bad-faith liar (and a bigot).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/28/politics/gavin-grimm-supreme-court/index.html

Here a public school wanted to restrict multiuser bathrooms to people of the correct bodies, but higher levels of government forced them to allow a girl to use the boy’s bathroom. So your “so be it” doesn’t happen automatically – the battle has to be fought, again and again, forever.

People who want sex-segregated facilities define sex and gender as that of people’s bodies. People who don’t like that can go build their own facilities, or try to convince people to change their minds. But if they try to force their way in, they should not be surprised when laws get passed that force them right back out.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

To say otherwise is to believe that Christians in the United States deserve to have their “taboos” enshrined into law even if that infringes on the lives and rights of non-Christians.

What’s wrong with advocating for a Christian theocracy, Ma’am? Don’t you believe in the rights to free speech and free assembly?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Three things.

  1. I use he/him or they/them and identify as cisgender, but misgendering me isn’t going to piss me off like you think it will. Hell, call me Stephanie if it makes you feel like you’re accomplishing something.
  2. Advocacy for any theocracy necessarily precludes the rights of free speech, free practice of religion, and freedom of assembly for anyone who isn’t part of the state-approved religion.
  3. No single religious group’s morals, ethics, principles, and beliefs deserve to be enshrined into the law that governs everyone outside of that group.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

What’s wrong with advocating for a Christian theocracy, Ma’am?

Because there’s no fucking god, and the people who advocate for this bullshit are fucking mentally stunted.

Don’t you believe in the rights to free speech and free assembly?

Sure. Assemble in your non-tax paying churches and go fuck yourself.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Safety is irrelevant.

No, it is extremely relevant because it is a perfectly valid reason to change or remove taboos.

The reason we have gender-segregated spaces is because the social, cultural, and religious taboos mandating them exist and are important to many people. That separation is based on sex, and the people interested in such segregation don’t care what people think about themselves, only what they are.

No, it really didn’t. The taboos came later. It was just done that way so they could cheap out on the doors and urinals in multiperson restrooms. And, in reality, people who have those taboos strongly disagree about whether it should be based on the body or on one’s identity. That you only care about one side of that debate is cherry-picking.

You are welcome to try to convince people that they should not want this, but if you try to unilaterally change the meaning of the labels on the spaces so that they apply to delusions rather than bodies, you will see exactly the sort of pushback that we are currently experiencing.

No one said anything about it being unilateral.

The reason deluded people can’t force their way into single-sex spaces is that the people in the single-sex spaces were there first.

How cute. You think transpeople only started using the restrooms corresponding to their gender identity recently. How naïve…

But yeah, never said anything about force being okay. Just pointing out that it’s still enforcing sex.

Also, you still haven’t demonstrated transgender people are deluded. Saying it over and over again doesn’t make it so.

Enforcing gender is meaningless because people are whatever gender (which is the same as sex) they are. Preventing intrusion is not enforcing sex, it is stopping people from lying about their sex.

Again, a distinction without a difference. That’s still enforcing sex. You’re also enforcing your (lack of) distinction between gender and sex.

Also, transgender people aren’t lying about their sex. That you deliberately misunderstand what they say about their gender (which is not the same as what you call sex) is not because they are lying. That you jump to conclusions without reasonable support is not them lying. You don’t get to unilaterally decide what their claims are.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Given that people are destroying their bodies to assume the semblance of the opposite sex, I don’t believe your claim.

Given that that doesn’t even remotely suggest that they believe that their sex isn’t solely that of the body (after all, if sex in humans was mutable, that most certainly wouldn’t preclude sex being solely determined by one’s body as changing sex would necessarily change the body in that case), nor does it prove that they believe sex in humans is mutable (as going through a process to make their bodies closer to that of the opposite sex doesn’t even imply that they believe the process actually changes their sex any more than people who have surgery to make themselves appear younger believe it actually changes their chronological age or people who have cosmetic surgery to look more similar to some sort of animal believe it actually changes what species they are).

Your argument is invalid, as the conclusion doesn’t follow from the premises.

Given that woke gender ideologues are trying to appropriate “man” and “woman” in support of their delusions, I don’t believe your claim.

Given that they explicitly distinguish between “sex” and “gender” and use “man” or “woman” solely to distinguish gender, not sex, this argument is also invalid. They still recognize that sex is that of the body and nothing else; the disagreement is regarding gender, “man”, and “woman”. Just because you use sex and gender interchangeably doesn’t mean that they do, so your definitions are irrelevant to what they mean by specific words.

The fact of the matter is that, regarding sex, you and they are almost entirely in agreement. If you want to attack their actual claims, use “gender” instead when talking about their beliefs; otherwise, you’re just making statements that they would largely agree with.

Look, believe what you want, but you’re still attacking strawmen, not what actual “woke gender ideologues” or transgender people actually say or believe. Your refusal to accept reality (which is kinda ironic, really) is your own problem, not mine, and not theirs.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

People don’t get to change the meaning of words and then require that things labeled with those words under the old definitions must now comport with the new ones. Spaces designated for men and women are spaces for people whose bodies are male and female. Attempting to change the meaning of men and women to apply to delusions rather than bodies does not require that the spaces now admit people based on delusion rather than bodies. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

People don’t get to change the meaning of words and then require that things labeled with those words under the old definitions must now comport with the new ones.

Not “require”; “strongly request”. Also, in the past, people didn’t realize that a distinction between the “old” and “new” definitions was even meaningful; we change societal rules to comport with new knowledge. The “new” definitions are there to reflect the new knowledge we’ve acquired.

Also, I still haven’t seen evidence that there is strong opposition from those who use women’s restrooms and locker rooms to transwomen, anyways.

Spaces designated for men and women are spaces for people whose bodies are male and female.

That’s your opinion. Not everyone is entitled to agree.

Attempting to change the meaning of men and women to apply to delusions rather than bodies does not require that the spaces now admit people based on delusion rather than bodies. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it a leg.

You still haven’t demonstrated the existence of a delusion in the first place. Simply calling it a delusion doesn’t make it so.

And it’s not a change to the definition of “man” and “woman”. It’s a change to the definition of “gender”, which the other two terms are based on. There’s a difference.

Finally, again, it’s not a requirement; it’s a desired change for practical and safety reasons. To some extent, it’s technically a preservation of the status quo, as transwomen were using women’s-only spaces long before people became aware of it.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Also, this is a discussion about whether there is debate about whether the statement “sex is solely that of the body” is something transgender people disagree with, not about whether they have a right to use a certain restroom. This isn’t about the merits of the positions transgender people and pro-trans people have; it’s about what those positions are and whether they are delusions.

You’re trying to change the subject without addressing my points, but that’s not how it works.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

You’re right. My wife hates my off-key humming and tells me to stop, but sometimes I don’t.

I doubt you have a wife, you are simply to odious for someone to bear being around you for an extended period of time.

No matter how much you hate it and wish it were otherwise, people can only ever be the sex of their bodies.

You keep repeating this as some kind of mantra in the belief that everything else you say has any kind of connection to reality. It’s telltale of someone who has to prop up the rest of their false arguments by saying something that isn’t actually relevant.

Many people find themselves in despair over not being the thing they want to be, but no amount of sadness can change physical reality.

And yet people do cosmetic surgery to feel better about themselves. I don’t hear you calling nose-jobs and breast augmentations for mutilation, or any other kind of cosmetic surgery for that matter.

And no amount of being lied to by other people can change physical reality.

So what are these lies? Are there actual doctors and psychological professionals saying that through surgery someone can become the actual opposite sex? Or are you too stupid to realize the simple fact that what is said is that through surgery someone can look and present as the opposite sex?

Woke gender ideology has become a parody of itself, with angry men physically attacking women who correctly tell them that they can never be women, and young girls having their bodies destroyed because they have been convinced that they can be something besides women.

When you have to lie and twist actual factual reality to prop up your argument, that’s a real indication of an ideology of a fanatic. If I would use your reasoning I can only conclude that since you are a man you must also be a rapist and someone who beats and murder women. The fact is, no matter what demographic group you look at, you will always find a very small group of people displaying abhorrent behavior.

For all the harm you claim is done by conversion therapy, at least it doesn’t involve mutilating the bodies of its attendees.

People who are subjected to conversion therapy are more than twice as likely to commit suicide compared to any other type of therapy. And those who doesn’t commit suicide after conversion therapy are 1.5 times more likely to suffer from severe psychological distress and mental problems for the rest of their life than persons who wasn’t subjected to the psychological torture that is called conversion therapy.

You are a sick man and a mental midget, if your outside reflected what’s on your inside people would run screaming from you in horror.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Cosmetic surgery can be mutilation when done to excess, but it generally does not involve the destruction of biological functionality in order to change appearance.

I do not accept your claims for the harms of conversion therapy, because you are motivated to believe that it is harmful. Given the sad state of psychological research, I doubt the accuracy of your statistics. And of course, regardless of anything else, criminalizing therapy because you don’t like its goals puts you in a bad position to then object to the criminalization of performing sex-changes on children.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I do not accept your claims for the harms of conversion therapy, because you are motivated to believe that it is harmful.

Survivors of the “practice” have testified in open government hearings about the harms and dangers of “conversion ‘therapy’ ”. Many survivors have said that such “therapists” see the suicide of a “patient” as a successful endeavour because success in the “practice” is measured only by a reduction of queer people in the world. Many of those same survivors have talked about the physical and psychological torture they suffered during their time in that “therapy”.

Someone talking to a therapist about being conflicted over their sexual identity is fine. Someone undergoing torture in an attempt to change their sexual identity⁠—regardless of whether they chose to undergo it⁠—is not. The only people who still think “conversion ‘therapy’ ” has any kind of effectiveness at what it claims to do are people who also have a vested interest in eradicating queer people.

But please, tell me again how someone being psychologically broken down into nothing before beaten and electrocuted and forced to believe they’re something other than who they are is a legitimate form of therapy instead of violent anti-queer religious indoctrination. I’ll wait.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Cosmetic surgery can be mutilation when done to excess, but it generally does not involve the destruction of biological functionality in order to change appearance.

You keep heaping on qualifiers on qualifiers when people point out how full of shit you are.

I do not accept your claims for the harms of conversion therapy, because you are motivated to believe that it is harmful. Given the sad state of psychological research, I doubt the accuracy of your statistics

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised by your stupidity and motivation to ignore factual reality. Maybe I should explain that collating data to provide statistics isn’t psychological research. And that also make me question, again, how smart you really are since you think psychology is in a such sad state but support a “psychological” therapy that’s been proven to be harmful.

And of course, regardless of anything else, criminalizing therapy because you don’t like its goals puts you in a bad position to then object to the criminalization of performing sex-changes on children.

Well, the statistics for quality of life after conversion therapy compared to gender affirming surgery tells me exactly what is what and how it should be treated which is also affirmed by those it primarily concerns.

And that’s the difference between a reasonable person and a fanatic like you, we listen to the people involved while you only screech how horrible they are because they aren’t like you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

How data is gathered is vital to understanding what the data means. Using a self-selected set of people who were unhappy with conversion therapy and speak out about it means as much to me as the detransitioned mutilated girls speaking out against that means to you. Or the the data in The Bell Curve, for that matter.

Science is hard. Cherry-picking results that support your beliefs isn’t science.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Using a self-selected set of people who were unhappy with conversion therapy and speak out about it means as much to me as the detransitioned mutilated girls speaking out against that means to you.

If you have any evidence that “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is actually effective as a “treatment” in re: its claims to be able to turn people cisgender/heterosexual, feel free to share it. But you’ll still have to overcome the fact that numerous survivors of said “treatment” have said that it didn’t change who they were inside. For as much as anecdotal experience isn’t empirical evidence, the fact that anyone who went through that “therapy” (and lived to tell the tale) can say “it didn’t do what the people in charge said it would do” slaps down any argument that “conversion ‘therapy’ ” is anything other than a fraud designed to eradicate queer people.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The difference is that there are essentially no instances where conversion therapy has actually worked (SRS and other treatments have been shown to work), we don’t accept what is involved in conversion therapy under any other circumstances (we do accept significant cosmetic surgeries for essentially no reason given), and there was a demonstrable increase among homosexuals who went through conversion therapy compared to those who did not (there is a decrease among transgender people who transition, at least where the population is accepting of transgender people).

Meanwhile, literally all you have is a few anecdotes and a distrust of the entire fields of psychology, neurology, and statistics.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Cosmetic surgery can be mutilation when done to excess, but it generally does not involve the destruction of biological functionality in order to change appearance.

But sometimes it does. Does that make it wrong? And does it mean we should prevent enthusiastically consenting adults who are sufficiently informed about all the costs, risks, and benefits from having it? Or should we mind our own business?

Again, no one here is arguing in favor of SRS being performed on minors, nor do the vast majority of pro-trans people or transgender people advocate for that, either; for children, transitioning is mostly limited to social transitioning and maybe puberty blockers, with maybe HRT being allowed for people at least 15-ish years old but no younger, and the occasional breast reduction surgery (which generally doesn’t involve “the destruction of biological functionality”) being allowed in some cases for transmen during or after puberty. SRS is the only treatment that is arguably mutilation and which involves “the destruction of biological functionality”, and using it on children is widely denounced within the transgender community and pro-trans activists, even if some extremists may exist who support or are okay with it. As such, for this case, we are only talking about adults.

Also, SRS isn’t just about changing appearance; it also helps with proprioception, which is a major factor in gender identity. Basically, their brains are wired to expect certain things that aren’t there and/or not expect certain things that are there, which causes a disconnect. This disconnect isn’t just about appearance but also how the body feels even without having to see it. SRS can help with that, too.

I do not accept your claims for the harms of conversion therapy, because you are motivated to believe that it is harmful.

You can deny reality all you want; reality doesn’t care.

Personally, I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with saying that conversion therapy doesn’t cause harms if that was a true statement; if someone genuinely wants to be “cured” of homosexuality, I would agree that they should have the right to such a treatment if it worked or didn’t cause so much harm in the process. Unfortunately, it simply does not work, and it does cause harm. Whether you accept it is irrelevant.

Given the sad state of psychological research, […]

Which you consistently exaggerate and overstate to the point where you are simply wrong.

[…] I doubt the accuracy of your statistics.

Again, your refusal to accept reality doesn’t change reality. The statistics are still reasonably accurate whether you believe them or not. Unless you have an actual argument besides your general (and, frankly, unsupported) distrust of psychology, your doubt means absolutely nothing.

And of course, regardless of anything else, criminalizing therapy because you don’t like its goals puts you in a bad position to then object to the criminalization of performing sex-changes on children.

And since we’re criminalizing it not because we don’t like its goals but because it is harmful and demonstrably does not work, and since no one supports SRS being performed on children in the first place, this point is moot. The first premise is entirely false, and the second is heavily flawed, so your argument is unsound even if it may technically be valid.

But sure, keep whaling on that strawman of yours.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: The Tyranny of the Parents

We have reached peak cringe, where parents disciplining their children, for the benefit of those children’s future, is now “torture”. However genital mutilation, and feeding the hormones, is somehow not “torture”

I want to keep Trans people out of “public life”, by preventing birth defects, by preventing chemicals in the food/water supply, and reducing mental illness. You want to let kids to lead a life of mental illness and drugs, leaving them to be unable to reproduce and have a family.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

parents disciplining their children, for the benefit of those children’s future, is now “torture”

Tell me you’ve never read accounts of “conversion ‘therapy’ ” from survivors of that bullshit without telling me you’ve never read accounts of “conversion ‘therapy’ ” from survivors of that bullshit.

genital mutilation, and feeding the hormones, is somehow not “torture”

You say you read studies all the time⁠—so go read the one from Louisiana about gender-affirming treatments for people on Medicaid. Then go find evidence that gender reassignment surgeries are regularly performed on under-18 children in significant numbers. Then maybe you’ll be worth talking to on the matter. Until then, you need to shut the fuck up when grown folks are talking⁠—especially about transgender people, since you seem to have no issue with the idea of literally torturing them until they believe they’re cisgender.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Benjamin Jay Barber, or at least this particular harasser’s namesake has been convicted for revenge pornographer in Oregon.

Yes, his legal “knowledge” has been shown to be a scam in more than one place and he has latched onto the white supremacist movement.

It is likely that said asshole is not interested in protecting ANYONE and subscribes to Nazi ideology.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

We have reached peak cringe, where parents disciplining their children, for the benefit of those children’s future, is now “torture”. However genital mutilation, and feeding the hormones, is somehow not “torture”.

Apparently you don’t know what torture is. You would have fit right in with the Bush administration.

Here’s a hint: It’s not torture if a) the people receiving it voluntarily ask for it, without any coercion, b) the people receiving it are generally (after controlling for other variables) happier afterwards (both immediately and in the long term), c) people who receive it are given anesthesia during any parts that may cause physical harm, and d) there is no evidence that most people who receive it get any mental trauma as a direct result.

It is torture if it is not voluntarily agreed to but instead intended as punishment to modify behavior or desires, it does cause physical and/or psychological trauma in most recipients, no anesthetics or painkillers are administered during any parts likely to cause physical pain, the behavior/desire intended to be modified is not objectively harmful and is a result of their biology/neurology, and it is sufficiently prolonged, frequent, and/or severe. Not all parental discipline is torture, but some absolutely is.

I want to keep Trans people out of “public life”, by preventing birth defects, […]

Good luck with that. /s

Seriously, we cannot prevent all birth defects. At some point, you have to accept that some will slip through the cracks. The question is what do you do when you inevitably fail. Also, not all birth defects are harmful. Why waste time preventing birth defects that are benign?

Now, there are some birth defects that can be prevented, to some extent. We can keep pregnant people from smoking or drinking during their pregnancy, keep pregnant people from ingesting certain chemicals known to cause birth defects (or at least which are substantially likely to do so), and keep people from being exposed to too much ionizing radiation, among other things. And many of those things are worth doing, to be sure (at least where some of the caused birth defects are harmful or more than a little inconvenient).

I’m just saying it is unrealistic to expect to prevent all of them, and some birth defects aren’t even a real problem in the first place. Like, technically, lactose tolerance (scientifically known as lactase persistence) started as a birth defect, even if it was an invisible one. Same with this one trait that helps against malaria (other than sickle-cell disorder), one which causes the eyes to have four kinds of cones instead of three, and one which reduces heart disease, among others. Still others are/were completely neutral (like having red hair) or sometimes beneficial and sometimes not so much (like having paler skin, which allows more Vitamin D to be produced from the same amount of exposure to the same amount of sunlight but which has the cost of reducing our protection from skin disease). You’re casting way too wide a net there.

[…] by preventing chemicals in the food/water supply, […]

To my knowledge, there is no known link between any chemicals in food/water and births of transgender people. Nor is there any link between any chemicals typically found in tap water (in developed nations at least) and any birth defects or mental disorders. I think you’re barking up the wrong tree there.

I’m not saying that preventing problematic chemicals from entering the food and/or water supply is necessarily wrong

[…] and reducing mental illness.

Just an FYI, but mental illness isn’t the same as a mental disorder. All mental illnesses are mental disorders, but not all mental disorders are mental illnesses. Not all mental disorders are bad.

Also, mental illnesses rarely just go away. They’re often incurable, meaning that no amount of treatment will get rid of them entirely. It would sure be nice if they could be, but we live in reality, and reality isn’t so kind.

Now, gender dysphoria can be treated to the point that it almost goes away, via transitioning. That you don’t agree with the treatment doesn’t change its effectiveness or the fact that it does reduce mental health problems (excluding transphobic harassment causing peer-pressure-caused regret).

You want to let kids to lead a life of mental illness and drugs, leaving them to be unable to reproduce and have a family.

No. I just know that not all mental illnesses are curable, that not all mental disorders are mental illnesses, that some—but not all—mental disorders (including some—but not all—mental illnesses) require drugs for treatment, that not all mental disorders are harmful, and that being transgender isn’t a mental disorder or mental illness (gender dysphoria is a mental disorder, but it is not a mental illness, and not all transgender people have gender dysphoria, anyways).

Honestly, as an autistic person, I am mildly offended by the implication of your statement. Autism is a mental disorder, but it is not a necessarily harmful one, nor do I want or need it to be cured.

Also, ideally, it would be nice if we could perform treatments that allow transgender people to completely transition and to do so in a way that does not cause infertility. Unfortunately, our technology hasn’t gotten that far, so we can’t. In the meantime, we allow those who genuinely want to undergo such treatments—fully aware of how they can (or, for SRS, necessarily do) negatively impact fertility—to do so, and it has been shown to improve the mental health of transgender people when they do, but we also don’t force anyone to go through such treatments if they don’t truly wish to or if they are unwilling to risk the side-effects or pay the currently-inevitable costs. Like, lots of non-trans people go through treatments known to cause infertility, sometimes even ones where that is the goal. That current treatments can or do cause infertility isn’t necessarily enough reason to ban them outright, as some are okay with that, at least compared to the alternative.

Finally, infertile people can still have families. Infertility doesn’t prevent marriage or adoption, after all. And a number of transgender people aren’t even infertile in the first place. But even setting that aside, not everyone wants to have a family to begin with.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Also, regarding parental discipline, if you are referring to conversion therapy, that isn’t even parental discipline. As the name suggests, parental discipline is administered by the parent(s), not a (self-proclaimed if not actual) doctor, counselor, or therapist; as such, even if conversion therapy wasn’t problematic for a number of reasons, it still wouldn’t be parental discipline. That’s just not what that term means.

And yes, conversion therapy is absolutely torture. It causes short- and long-term physical and psychological trauma; many victims had been sent there by their parents and did not actually ask for it; it is a form of punishment intended to modify behaviors and/or desires which are neither necessarily harmful nor substantially inconvenient, and those behaviors/desires are ones which the person has involuntarily; it is prolonged, severe, and repeated multiple times; no painkillers or similar substances are provided for during parts which may or will cause physical pain; and patients are less happy in the long-term (or in the short-term) after the treatment than before. It also simply does not work: you cannot force a gay person to become straight; at most, you can force a gay or bi person to pretend to be straight.

So yeah, conversion therapy is torture and absolutely isn’t parental discipline.

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David says:

Re:

You can’t hide from the fact that people can only ever be the sex of their bodies, no matter how much you pretend that majorities of people aren’t saying that.

The brain is a part of the body. There is considerable variety of chromosome setup, and there are things like hormonal insensitivities that lead to a different phenotype from the “proper” genetic sex right from the birth.

You don’t demand (or do you?) that women are confined to bra departments corresponding to their cup size at the end of puberty in order to punish breast implants and not figure-shame natural DD-cup sizes.

Whose safety are you protecting by forcing bearded muscled chromosome-XX not-men-according-to-your-nomenclature into women’s lavatories?

Putting aside that what we are really talking about is the label on closed toilet stalls and communal washing basins that usually open into a public corridor.

Because the actually weird and sort-of offensive thing would be a female-lookalike whipping out their dick in a common urinal, something that cannot really happen in a women’s restroom.

That is not something you are likely to encounter in the context of transgender people. It might happen in the support environment of a drag show event.

And even then it is unlikely since a thorough drag queen invests a lot of effort into their “passing”, and that brings along a social context and bearing fitting their displayed persona. So whatever label washing room a drag performer chooses for themselves, they’ll be using a private stall for private functions.

In short, this whole “anti-woke” nonsense is pretending to protect “good people” from problems that are not happening, while the cost of that “protection” is real and borne by minorities that are convenient victims.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Delusion

My step father tells people that he killed 300 men in vietnam, that he was an E8 master sargeant, and that he is a cuban jew.

None of these has a factual basis in reality, and none of his family members indulges him in these fantasies, why should “gender” be any different?

Then you go on to describe how some people have birth defects, or are a product of androgen system disorders, yet instead of proposing to fix the disorders you want us to embrace more disorder.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

None of these has a factual basis in reality, and none of his family members indulges him in these fantasies, why should “gender” be any different?

Because gender has a factual basis in reality. Your refusal to accept reality is not my problem.

Then you go on to describe how some people have birth defects, or are a product of androgen system disorders, yet instead of proposing to fix the disorders you want us to embrace more disorder.

Because you can’t fix every single disorder, and not all disorders are harmful. Why fix what isn’t broken in the first place?

But yeah, let me know when you figure out how to alter the human brain to connect to different organs on command and alter someone’s genetic code.

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Violet Aubergine (profile) says:

Re:

Oh no, we’re definitely hearing what you say but there’s really no point in engaging in somebody promoting atavistic hatred as a documentary. If you ever have some rational, logical points to make feel to free to make them but the right engages in so much gaslighting and lying that a discussion is impossible because the person you are talking to doesn’t believe in anything beyond pissing off liberals. It’s why right wing platforms fail, because there’s no liberals there to harass.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Once upon a time, a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed. Now it’s strictly sticking fingers in ears and yelling “I can’t hear you!” How amazingly petty.

Alright, since you’re an advocate of free speech and would like debate, let us commence to debate the continued existence of the white race, and why all conservatives should not be rounded up and exterminated. It’s all in the spirit of free speech, hypothetical, and what’s the harm really in just asking a few questions about what society might look like with the complete eradication of white people?

Clearly the debates of whether this or that group of people deserve to exist or may be legally eradicated are of such controversy and merit that it should be called to question. Given how many debates there are about the merit of the continued existence of various minorities in this country let’s add the debate about the continued existence of the majority into the fold, as that too must be covered under the umbrella of free speech within a free society, and what oppressive woke society would prevent debate on whether whites should be allowed to exist given their obvious harms to self-determination, the moral fabric of this country, and, indeed, humanity itself? Perhaps whiteness is innately obscene and all works depicting whiteness or written by white authors should be banned for the sale of our children’s safety. While genitals are generally covered in public and therefore determining sex is difficult without invasive manœuvering, whiteness is much easier to discern and so laws against whiteness can be easily enforced.

So let us debate, or are you too woke to consider the complete obliteration of white culture and society permissible free speech?

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I don’t see that in the article. And that one girl complained does not prove a trend, especially when the daughter would likely have learned her transphobia from her father. Again, we’re talking about girls, plural. One person’s opinion doesn’t speak for anyone but that one person.

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Who Cares (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Girls don’t want boys in their locker rooms.

Then why are you advocating for just that?

Do you really think that people who are labelled female on their birth certificate undergo GRS/SRS just to watch a guy whip out their dick and pee in an urinal? And your solution to that is to force these men into the girls locker rooms?

The fact that your body isn’t telling you that it is the wrong gender doesn’t mean gender dysphoria does not exist, it does and we know quite well what causes it. And unlike in your delusions (that go: Day 1 I’m a girl, Day 2 I pretend to be a guy, Day 3 I take an invasive form of surgery that is irreversible, Day 4 I can now peek at the guys without problem) it takes a long series of talks with specialists to weed out exactly the type of idiot you describe, the people suffering from other mental conditions that aren’t caused by gender dysphoria, or the people forced into this.

P.s.: Nice attempt at using bigotry to justify your own. If anything you should have excoriated the school for caving to the bullies. I wonder what threat the bullies used to get this settled since the school would have won that lawsuit by such a margin the judge would have been almost required to award compensation of costs seeing everything backing up the school.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

People are only ever the sex of their bodies. People who want sex-segregated spaces don’t care about the delusions of people who want to force their way in, only whether their bodies disqualify them from doing so. People are “men”, “women”, “boys”, or “girls” only according to their bodies. That woke gender ideologues want to redefine those words to support the delusions of these mentally ill doees not require anyone else to agree to those redefinitions.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

People are only ever the sex of their bodies.

You keep repeating this like it’s a magic spell, as if we didn’t hear it the first hundred times you said it and we’re supposed to roll over and submit to the awesomeness of a right-wing workshopped “DESTROYED by FACTS and LOGIC” line that’s meant to end debates.

We’ve all heard it. We’re not impressed. And we’re not being struck down by your magic incantation. Stop invoking words and start using them, dipshit.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

People are only ever the sex of their bodies.

You keep saying this as if anyone disagrees. They don’t. We certainly don’t. Repeating it over and over again won’t do anything to convince anyone who wasn’t already convinced, and it does nothing to contradict anything any of us have said. It isn’t even a case where you’re pointing out something you think we got wrong, as no one has said anything to the contrary. I suggest you change your strategy.

People who want sex-segregated spaces don’t care about the delusions of people who want to force their way in, only whether their bodies disqualify them from doing so.

Again, they aren’t delusions no matter how many times you say they are. You still haven’t pointed to a claim that they actually make that is objectively, demonstrably false, which is necessary for it to be a delusion.

Additionally, you still haven’t demonstrated that this position outnumbers those who have a contrary taboo (let alone everyone else who disagrees), nor have you given any reason why others should be restricted by the taboos of a minority, nor have you suggested any noninvasive way to enforce such a thing that doesn’t interfere with cisgender people doing their business, nor have you given any reason why we should inconvenience or offend cisgender people to satisfy the easily offended. You also haven’t given a reason why we shouldn’t change the rules.

Again, no one is saying that transgender people and pro-trans activists won’t have to fight for it. We had to fight for desegregation of restrooms, locker rooms, and sports (among other things) based on race, so we don’t expect it to just happen right away for transgender people, either.

People are “men”, “women”, “boys”, or “girls” only according to their bodies.

That is your opinion based on your chosen definitions and your rejection of psychology and neuroscience. No one else is obligated to agree.

That woke gender ideologues want to redefine those words to support the delusions of these mentally ill doees not require anyone else to agree to those redefinitions.

That transphobes are unwilling to accept new data or science does not mean that transgender people are delusional or mentally ill, nor does their bigotry or stubbornness give them the right to regulate language. It also doesn’t mean you aren’t being rude by calling someone who says that they don’t want to be called a “girl” or “woman” either “girl” or “woman”.

Now, are you done repeating yourself over and over again as though you’re making a point? Especially without any data to back up the claims on which there is disagreement or a reason for anyone to change their mind? Because right now, you aren’t offering reasons or justifications; you’re just making assertions and stating opinions.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Once upon a time, a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed. Now it’s strictly sticking fingers in ears and yelling “I can’t hear you!” How amazingly petty.

Just notice how your comment has been “flagged” and suppressed. TD commenters who oppose robust discussion are shameless!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Or, more likely, Techdirt commenters are saying “sorry, but we’re not going to play your stupid hateful games here, go the fuck away.”

There is a difference between having an open debate and elevating utter fucking hateful nonsense. You and the original commenter above are doing the latter. Sensible people don’t need to dignify hate & nonsense peddlers with a debate. They can just nope out of it, rather than giving you fuckheads credibility.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Just notice how your comment has been “flagged” and suppressed. TD commenters who oppose robust discussion are shameless!

Or, and I’m just spitballing here, TD commenters find people like you fucking repugnant, and wonder if they’re talking to someone on the sex offender registry.

Fucking creep.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

If Hyman hadn’t repeatedly ignored warnings to stop bringing this up, particularly in discussions that had nothing to do with it, he probably wouldn’t get flagged as often.

That said, hiding comments does nothing to inhibit the ability to have discussions with those comments, so if the intent is opposition to robust discussion, it fails miserably. It’s almost like they don’t oppose robust discussions at all; they just don’t want to have this sort of discussion on a tech website and also want to show widespread disapproval of the commenter.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I was talking about not mentioning the name of the movie. The flagging is just silly. As has been pointed out many times, the only robust discussions on TechDirt involve flagged comments.

The petty harassment of having my signed-in posts sent to moderation is a better indication of the mindset of the site owner. It accomplishes nothing and actually makes it harder for people who want to ignore me to do so, since I simply post as AC.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The petty harassment

Dude, you’re the one who was told to leave. It isn’t “harassment” for the owner of the property on which you’re openly shitting to say “get out” when he catches you shitting on his property.

Christ, you really do have a problem with property rights and consent. No wonder you’re okay with torturing queer people.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I was talking about not mentioning the name of the movie.

That isn’t censorship, either.

The petty harassment of having my signed-in posts sent to moderation is a better indication of the mindset of the site owner. It accomplishes nothing and actually makes it harder for people who want to ignore me to do so, since I simply post as AC.

You seem to take pride in your refusal to take a hint and leave. Thanks for proving my point.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

You can’t hide from the fact that people can only ever be the sex of their bodies, no matter how much you pretend that majorities of people aren’t saying that.

Why do you have such a peculiar infatuation with other peoples’ genitals?

Where I come from, we call you people ‘creeps’ and beat the shit out of you if you make anyone feel uncomfortable.

What the fuck is wrong with you, you fucking creep?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

As I said, men who delusionally believe they’re women are now using physical violence to attack real women who call out their lies. Men with such delusional beliefs are no less men than normal men, and as with many normal men, resorting to violence when contradicted is par for the course.

As you demonstrate.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Hyman is referring to a small number of reported cases where a male-to-female transgender person violently reacted to people asking if they are in the right bathroom.

There will always be these kinds of people, transgender or otherwise. In small numbers.

No one is denying that people desire to be safe inside public bathrooms.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Bathrooms have nothing to do with it.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/watch-conservative-activist-bloodied-bruised-pro-trans-rally-canada-police-did-nothing

https://nypost.com/2023/04/07/riley-gaines-ambushed-and-hit-after-womens-sports-speech-at-sfsu/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGlLYHC5-AM

https://vpd.ca/news/2023/04/01/vancouver-police-investigate-violent-confrontations-at-trans-rights-rally/

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:3

There are an estimated 1.6 million people who identify as transgender in the US. 25% of those have been physically attacked because of who they are and 20-40 are murdered yearly for the same reason.

So take your crocodile tears somewhere else, because bigots deserve everything they get.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Again, that some transgender people get violent is inevitable. There are 1.6 million of them just in the U.S., and they aren’t some hive mind or anything. Obviously, there will be some bad actors there. Are you going to say that astronauts are dangerous because Buzz Aldrin punched a moon-landing-denier? Or that that means that the moon landing was fake?

The question is whether it is part of a trend, and if so, how that compares to the number of attacks on transgender people. Right now, the answers to those questions appear to be “no” and “much, much less frequent, even proportionally”, respectively.

The plural of “anecdote” is not “data”.

Also, most transgender people and pro-trans activists do not condone these actions. You’re committing a category fallacy.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The comment is from Hyman Rosen, who has espoused viewpoints that is disturbingly similar to what the Nazis espouse.

viewpoint-based censorship

Hyman’s definition of this term is, “criticizing speech I like”. Techdirt has reported on actual censorship in China, India, and other authcap states, and yet, Hyman is eerily silent on most, if not all, of those articles.

Once upon a time, a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed.

Hyman has been told more than enough times to behave or leave, and the owner of the site lets him harass the site’s community. I would say that counts as defending free speech, but apparently “knowing that your actions have consequences” (ie, getting flagged to oblivion) is a form of censorship according to the treasonous curs that pretend to be conservative.

that one thought-stopping cliche that Hyman keeps repeating about transgender folk

While biology certainly says that, psychology also says that gender dysphoria is a thing, and unless the academic consensus on gender dysphoria either shifts due to new evidence or, in the more likely case, outside “pressure” from insurance companies OR China forces a shift in consensus, gender dysphoria will continue to be a diagnosis. One that usually is done professionally, ideally with a team of doctors from different medical fields, and usually with the patient’s consent with regards to treatment.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

While biology certainly says that, psychology also says that gender dysphoria is a thing, […]

I mean, it’s also in neurology. Transwomen’s brains have connections for female bodies but not male bodies, and transmen’s brains have connections for male bodies but not female bodies.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I mean, it’s also in neurology. Transwomen’s brains have connections for female bodies but not male bodies, and transmen’s brains have connections for male bodies but not female bodies.

This is deranged and laughable (not surprising coming from the evil TD commentariat that supports mutilating and sterilizing vulnerable children and young people!).

A female brain is any brain that has developed in a female body. “Transwomen’s brains” are by their very nature MALE BRAINS!

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Credentials

I work in creating Artificial neural networks, thus have read alot on the topic of human brains.

TD commentors are just as much as a stochastic parrot, as the language models I produce, they cant reason.

They don’t spend time reading science journals every day, they just parrot what the person with the credentials says.

anon says:

Re: Re: Re:4

[…] I work in creating Artificial neural networks […]

lol you’re a talentless dolt who runs code others wrote, with no comprehension of its mechanics or dunxtion. you use long sentences, not to convey meaning, but in the incorrect belief that it confers authority.

oh, and would you happen to be the same Benjamin J Barber convicted for revenge porn / sextortion, as well as the Benjamin Jay Barber who demanded a court provide you a free lawyer in order to sue a credit union over a two dollar membership fee?

lmao

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I work in creating Artificial neural networks, thus have read alot on the topic of human brains.

Sooooo… no different from me, then.

They don’t spend time reading science journals every day, they just parrot what the person with the credentials says.

Maybe you shouldn’t just leap to conclusions, because I love reading scientific papers.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Re:

“I mean, it’s also in neurology. Transwomen’s brains have connections for female bodies but not male bodies, and transmen’s brains have connections for male bodies but not female bodies.”

i am fairly certain that this is some sort of industry funded claim, but coming from a “neural network” background its sort of laughable. Show me a single neural connection, that is always present in females but never in males.

In reality men and women have different distributions of connections, and simply being on one side of the distribution does not make you a woman. There is actually one thing that women have that no men have, two X chromosomes, which tends to keep women away from the far ends of the distribution.

Simply having a defective Y chromosome, and being unable to produce testosterone, does not give you a female brain either, because a man without ovaries will never produce the same neurotransmitters as a woman can.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

i am fairly certain that this is some sort of industry funded claim, […]

No industry benefits from it, so no, it is not.

Show me a single neural connection, that is always present in females but never in males.

The parts that are connected to the uterus.

In reality men and women have different distributions of connections, and simply being on one side of the distribution does not make you a woman.

I’m not talking about general trends.

There is actually one thing that women have that no men have, two X chromosomes, which tends to keep women away from the far ends of the distribution.

This is actually false, and not even solely due to transgender or genderfluid people. Some people have XX chromosomes but develop male, and some have XY chromosomes but develop female.

Simply having a defective Y chromosome, and being unable to produce testosterone, does not give you a female brain either, because a man without ovaries will never produce the same neurotransmitters as a woman can.

You just proved my point.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Having references to it not be canceled on Twitter is why those of us who decry viewpoint-based censorship were happy with Musk’s purchase of Twitter, regardless of how he’s managed it since.

And they still weren’t cancelled under the policy. Labeling isn’t canceling. Downranking isn’t canceling. Not having ads isn’t canceling.

Once upon a time, a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech might have chosen to engage with arguments for viewpoints with which he disagreed.

This isn’t a site for engaging in discussions about LGBT rights and such. This is more about free speech, technology, IP law, and governments not abiding by the Constitution.

Basically, there’s a place to have that discussion; this isn’t it.

Nevertheless, I have had that discussion with you multiple times, yet you continue to attack strawmen of transgender people rather than discuss what they actually claim, or fail to justify calling them delusional since you can point to no beliefs they actually have that are demonstrably false. And you’re one of the better ones on your side.

Now it’s strictly sticking fingers in ears and yelling “I can’t hear you!”

Is it any wonder that people eventually get tired of addressing the same, invalid, repeatedly debunked talking points over and over again? Also, that is in no way inconsistent with valuing free speech. Preventing myself from hearing you doesn’t prevent you from talking to those who are interested and being heard by them. And since I am “a self-proclaimed advocate for free speech”, and I am engaging in discussions with you, the assertion that it is strictly just ignoring you now is demonstrably false.

You can’t hide from the fact that people can only ever be the sex of their bodies, no matter how much you pretend that majorities of people aren’t saying that.

You can’t hide from the fact that no one claims that the sex of their bodies can be changed in that sense (at least with our current technology) no matter how much you pretend that majorities of people are saying that.

Your arguments to support this assertion simply don’t prove what you claim. For example, that transgender people attempt to get SRS and such to physically alter their bodies to be more like that of the opposite sex doesn’t prove that they believe that a complete sex-change is actually possible any more than someone who dyes their hair blonde thinks that they can become a natural blonde. It’s just plastic surgery to make them feel more comfortable with their bodies. Whether or not you think that is healthier than them learning to accept their bodies as they are, it’s simply not true that it entails a belief that human sex is truly mutable.

No matter how many times you make this same claim, the facts of the matter will not change. Nobody believes that, with our current technology, it is possible for humans to completely change their physiological sex beyond what you yourself would agree is possible, even if you don’t think it’s advisable or that it solves anything.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Re: Re: Falsifiability

“or fail to justify calling them delusional since you can point to no beliefs they actually have that are demonstrably false.”

The entire premise of gender is non falsifiable, i cannot “falsify” that a person “identifies as X”. Moreover there is no test, device or apparatus, that can determine if someone “identifies ax X”. This inherently means that the concept of gender is not scientific, but instead a ideology untethered from reality, that just so happens to use the same words as the scientific concept of sex.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The entire premise of gender is non falsifiable, i cannot “falsify” that a person “identifies as X”. Moreover there is no test, device or apparatus, that can determine if someone “identifies ax X”. This inherently means that the concept of gender is not scientific, but instead a ideology untethered from reality, that just so happens to use the same words as the scientific concept of sex.

Except you ignore that:

  1. We’re partially talking about social constructs, which exist even if they are arbitrary, meaning whether or not it is scientific is irrelevant;
  2. There have been studies showing that the brains of transwomen are just like those of ciswomen rather than cismen (in terms of how they are structured for controlling things like genitals) and that the brains of transmen are just like those of cismen rather than ciswomen (same), meaning there is a scientific element to gender; and
  3. Hyman asserts that transgender people are denying objective reality, so he has the burden of proof in showing which claim(s) is/are demonstrably false.

Now, practically, in everyday life, we can’t really do any tests to see if someone truly identifies as X, but that’s true of a number of things, including sex in most cases. There are methods to determine gender identity, but they only work post mortem, so…

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Scientific racism” also has studies that purport to show large differences in intelligence based on race:
What Is Intelligence, and Who Has It?. I imagine that you don’t believe those studies?

People always claim the imprimatur of science to support their most insane theories. Someone waving the fMRI fairy wand over the brains of a handful of people doesn’t prove anything about the trans delusion except that people are willing to lie to themselves about the things they want to believe.

As Marcello Truzzi said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. People only ever being the sex of their body isn’t the extraordinary claim. The delusions of people that they are in the wrong body and need to have themselves mutilated to match something they can never be is the extraordinary claim. Applying that delusion to children with mental illnesses is the extraordinary claim.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

As Marcello Truzzi said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Applying that delusion to children with mental illnesses is the extraordinary claim.

So prove that it is a delusion and that the children is mentally ill. Perhaps using your vast knowledge in psychology and neuroscience since you imply you know better than the experts in those fields.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

“Scientific racism” also has studies that purport to show large differences in intelligence based on race: […]

I’m not talking about race. I’m talking about the parts of the brain responsible for certain physical, anatomical parts of the body that are generally exclusive to human males or to human females, primarily the genitals. You know, like someone in a female body whose brain is configured to connect with a penis and is not configured to connect with a uterus.

These are the sorts of differences I’m talking about, not stuff like intelligence or emotions or whatever, where there might or might not be a statistical difference in degree, rather than of kind. People of different races simply do not have this sort of variation in their anatomy where people of one race have certain organs not generally present in people of some other race, so we would not expect to see such differences in the brains of people of different races rather than people of different sexes and/or genders.

So yeah, so-called “scientific” racism is simply not analogous to what I’m talking about.

Someone waving the fMRI fairy wand over the brains of a handful of people […]

That’s not even what happened in these studies. Not even close. These were autopsies. Complete with invasive surgeries that you simply cannot perform on a live subject without killing them. And the sample sizes were more significant as well. It’s almost like you have no idea what you’re even talking about even though I’ve explained this multiple times.

[…] doesn’t prove anything about the trans delusion except that people are willing to lie to themselves about the things they want to believe.

Honestly, you might as well reject all of science at this point if you’re going to make such an accusation without any evidence whatsoever. It also doesn’t prove a trans delusion even exists, as the burden of proof for that claim is on you.

People only ever being the sex of their body isn’t the extraordinary claim.

Which is why, again, no one disputes this claim. I certainly don’t.

(Again, that people change their bodies to be more like the other sex doesn’t entail a belief that they are of the other sex before or after the treatment, and even if they believed that they had truly changed their sex (which, again, they do not), that wouldn’t entail a belief that one’s sex is not of the body since, if sex could be changed, changing the body would certainly be how it was done.)

The delusions of people that they are in the wrong body and need to have themselves mutilated to match something they can never be is the extraordinary claim.

Not really. Their claim is that their brain was not properly wired for the body they’re in, making them feel uncomfortable with it; in some cases, the best course of action for such people (given our current technology) is to undergo HRT and/or SRS. They don’t believe that their sex isn’t that of their body; they believe some other trait(s) that they have—which they often call “gender”—doesn’t work with their body, so they may have their body altered to better conform to their gender.

This doesn’t mean that they dispute that one’s sex is anything other than that of the body, nor does it mean that they dispute that sex in humans is immutable. Neither of those things follow.

So please, tell me what is so extraordinary about one’s brain being improperly wired for the body one has? Lots of things can and do go wrong during a pregnancy; why is this so difficult for you to believe? And given that someone is uncomfortable with their body, what is so hard to believe that such a person would resort to bodily modification to reduce the level of discomfort despite knowing that such things can only do so much?

Also, you need to stop inserting your conclusions into the premises. You are assuming that they are delusions before you have even demonstrated it.

Applying that delusion to children with mental illnesses is the extraordinary claim.

First off, you’re again assuming the thing that is to be proven: that these are delusions and mental illnesses.

Second, most mental illnesses do not involve or typically cause delusions, and mental disorders that are not mental illnesses almost never do. Neither gender dysphoria, gender euphoria, nor depression (a mental illness that is unfortunately common among transgender people in populations which do not accept them) cause delusions. As such, your assertion that we shouldn’t believe someone just because they are mentally ill is unfounded. Unless they have something like schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa, or narcissism or are pathological liars, having a mental illness does not, in itself, make one more likely to experience a delusion than neurotypical people.

Third, if adults have such an experience, there is nothing extraordinary to see children also having such an experience. Heck, even if it was a delusion (which, again, it demonstrably isn’t, and you still haven’t provided any evidence to the contrary to rebut that), there is nothing extraordinary about saying that some children also have such a “delusion”. So, really, there is nothing extraordinary about this claim.

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Anonymous Coward says:

That he made a show of it being advertising-restricted and then turned around to promote it as the movie “they” don’t want you to see… quite thrilling, I’m sure, for advertisers to be thrown under the bus and placed right in the middle of the “culture war” like this by the site’s owner. On the one hand you can choose not to advertise against something to protect your brand, but on the other the owner (who sees all your brand’s advertising decisions) can choose at any time to publicly mock your brand for that decision to suit his personal or political agenda. And yet no doubt some people will praise him for his lack of “political correctness.” (How is the new CEO supposed to maintain relationships with advertisers, the supposed reason for her selection, with this threat constantly overhead?)

The whole “I choose to be polite” thing is incredibly cynical with the subsequent promotion of this propaganda. It shows that the claimed politeness is at best a façade that is at odds with his true convictions. What people are asking for here is for others to be respectful of their personal decisions, not just to say the right words to pretend to be polite. (Reminds me of what SBF said about how he thought society was about using the right words to create the appearance of having the “appropriate” views on things. How deeply cynical and unfeeling!)

Musk also apparently confirmed the suspicion that Irwin’s departure was related to the incident. But one wonders whether this was a principled stand or just the need to put people in their place when they do something to “embarrass” Musk in public (not that he didn’t use it to further his agenda anyway). What a mess.

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Manabi (profile) says:

What Friends?

You said that Musk is doing things to help out his friends, but that’s not accurate. Musk has no friends, he has followers who only care about what he can do for them.

If he loses his power (aka, money), finishes tanking Twitter entirely or drops dead, not a single one of them will care about him any longer. They’ll move on to a new “powerful” person who expresses their hatred and Musk will become an afterthought. If he decides to change and start being a decent human being, they won’t listen to him or change. Instead they’ll start attacking him as an enemy.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Can't imagine why advertisers wouldn't want to stay there...

Another fine showing of just what sort of people and content Elon wants on the site, along with a crystal clear message that the rules are there only for him to use against anyone he doesn’t like since he will personally step in and overrule any silly employee who tries to apply them to those he does like.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Isn’t the thesis of the TechDirt commentariat that the owner sets the rules? You liked it when the large generic speech sites were offering viewpoint-based censorship silencing opinions you didn’t like. Now that Musk is the sole owner of Twitter, he gets to set and change the rules any time he likes.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Isn’t the thesis of the TechDirt commentariat that the owner sets the rules?

Yes, it is. And we get to criticize the owner when he makes decisions that expose his political leanings and align him with horrible people bent on doing horrible things. Die mad about it.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Isn’t the thesis of the TechDirt commentariat that the owner sets the rules?

Yes, it is. That doesn’t mean that the owner is free from criticism.

Plus, this is more about inconsistencies in application to just a single case rather than a problem with the rules themselves.

You liked it when the large generic speech sites were offering viewpoint-based censorship silencing opinions you didn’t like.

As Mike has repeatedly pointed out, they never liked everything about the rules Twitter had previously, and this site has certainly criticized them in the past. The difference is that Twitter was more open and honest about the whole thing than Musk is, Twitter was a lot more consistent in applying its rules than Musk is, and Twitter was better at determining how its rules are applied and may change over time than Musk is. It has nothing to do with who is getting “silenced”.

Now that Musk is the sole owner of Twitter, he gets to set and change the rules any time he likes.

He sure can. And we get to point out how incompetent or impulsive he is about it and that he is also willing to lie about or conceal it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Note that this was not me. If you would like to avoid confusion in the future, please ask the site owner to stop sending my signed-in posts to moderation. (If you knew that it wasn’t me but were just pretending that it was in order to troll me, sorry for bothering you and please carry on.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

For what reason do you support queer people being tortured and indoctrinated, likely against their will, into being cishet?

To be clear, I personally only support this for the adult degenerates, and it’s because they’re irredeemable and demonic (especially the ones actively trying to entice confused children to join their death cult).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It’s funny that you think being queer is the same thing as being part of a cult and that queer people somehow “recruit” non-queer kids to join. Not funny in the “ha ha ha” sense, but more in the sense that a lot of queer people in this country weren’t exposed to positive and humanizing queer narratives as children and they still turned out to be queer. (I should know, because I’m one of them.)

Also, congratulations on showing off your true religious colors, Hyman. I knew you couldn’t keep shittalking conservative Christians forever.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It’s funny that you think being queer is the same thing as being part of a cult and that queer people somehow “recruit” non-queer kids to join.

There’s nothing funny about the demonic “queer” forces that encourage vulnerable children and young people to believe they were “born in the wrong body”.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I mean, even assuming your factual claims, that still wouldn’t make them demonic, and even if it did, you would still have people who would disagree with your proposal simply because, again, they do not support liquidating people at all under any circumstances whatsoever.

On top of that, accepting this statement as true for the sake of argument, that still doesn’t prove the existence of a cult of queer people who somehow “recruit” non-queer people to become queer and join the “cult”. This is completely nonsensical.

But then the statement itself is something you haven’t even demonstrated; do you have evidence that “‘queer’ forces” encourage vulnerable children and young people to believe they are in the wrong body? Like, as a trend rather than a few rare, isolated instances?

But setting all of that aside, you said it was especially for those “actively trying to entice confused children to join their death cult,” not just them, so how do you justify calling the others “demonic”?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

There’s nothing funny about the demonic “queer” forces that encourage vulnerable children and young people to believe they were “born in the wrong body”.

Demonic? How melodramatic, but cliche.

May I suggest if you want to spice up your religious nutcase scaredy-cat bullshit, that first, you go and get yourself a fucking Thesaurus. Because ‘demonic’ is just plain vanilla-boring, and even for dipshits like you people, I expect more colorful language at this point. You can do better.

Second, being someone who likes to help out the less-educated, in place of ‘demonic’ I’d like to suggest instead ‘Mephistophilian,’ ‘unhallowed,’ ‘damnable,’ ‘accursed,’ ‘impious,’ or ‘execrable?’
Spicing up your horseshit will prevent it from falling flat on its face, and will provide the reader with a more exciting comment to flag.

I certainly hope this helps, and I genuinely hope you have the day you deserve.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You’re being disrespectful, so no, we cannot. You’re also wrong about scripture, as nothing in Christianity suggests that humans can be demons, or that demons disguise themselves as humans. They may possess humans, but “being demon-possessed” ≠ “being a demon”.

This isn’t just a matter of opinion. It’s about the fact that no remotely reasonable interpretation of scripture (even with motivated reasoning) supports it, it’s false, you present no evidence or even reasoning for it, it’s disrespectful, it’s dehumanizing, it’s delusional, it’s unscientific, it’s harmful, it’s unnecessary for Christianity or your wider point, and it’s in opposition to Christ’s message of love for your neighbors and love for your enemies.

Like, even if you believe it, keep it to yourself. Absolutely do not act as though this is even remotely uncontroversial when, even just among Christians, it is a fringe belief. Heck, it’s pretty fringe even among fundamentalists and bigots. Saying they are “demon-like” or “demon-possessed” is bad enough, honestly, but saying they are literally demons is going way too far, even for a fundamentalist transphobe.

Seriously, I think your notion of what other people might agree with is seriously out of whack. Maybe you’ve spent your life in a fundamentalist community and your time on the internet mostly in echo chambers, but you really need to recognize just how outside of the mainstream you really are. I only ask you to have a little self-awareness here.

Heck, I was ignoring your use of the term “demonic” up until now because a) it wasn’t necessary for me to point out flaws in your position and b) I had assumed you meant it metaphorically, but calling them literal demons is just so outside of mainstream that it’s insane that you think you’re presenting an uncontroversial position.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

I believe that “queer” people who try to indoctrinate children into their cult are literal demons.

That clears a whole lot up. You’re a fucking idiot if you believe in ‘literal demons’ (which also would include ‘literal goblins’ or ‘literal succubus’ or ‘literal apparition’).

I’d suggest getting your self-admitted schizophrenia under control before telling anyone else what’s going on in that fucking head of yours. Unless you want to look like a nut case.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Is there really any argument against liquidating the evil groomers

Do you mean you people who are overly infatuated with the genitalia of other parents’ children, and demand involvement in decisions made about them?

Yeah, liquidating you people would be a great start.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

gro0mers should be liquidated

Well, you’re gonna have to start with all the Republicans and priests and cops who keep getting arrested for raping children and producing/distributing child pornography⁠—most (if not all) of whom likely share your desire for the unsanctioned murder of queer people. For more details, please look up the #NotADragQueen hashtag on Twitter.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Well, you’re just plain wrong. Plenty of reasonable people think that the death penalty is immoral, so it’s a controversial opinion to say that the punishment for X should be death no matter what X may be. You don’t get to just dismiss naysayers as not being “right-thinking people” to get around this.

The fact of the matter is that the death penalty is, in and of itself, controversial, regardless of how reasonable you think the other side is. There simply isn’t a widespread consensus on the matter, and it is unreasonable for you to pretend there isn’t. Get over it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

You don’t get to just dismiss naysayers as not being “right-thinking people” to get around this.

Of course we do. The vast majority of Americans are opposed to LGBTQ+ degeneracy, and would require very little encouragement/manipulation to support pogroms against degenerates like trans-identifying scum and their cishet allies.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You really should stop assuming that every transphobic troll who posts anonymously here is Hyman. You and I both know that there are plenty of transphobes out there. No need to blame Hyman for everything.

Also, how would Hyman even benefit from someone so extreme? Especially if he thought that pretending to be an ultra-left, ultra-queer poster would help him.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

how would Hyman even benefit from someone so extreme?

Overton Windowing. If someone saying straight-up fascist bullshit even worse than Hyman’s bullshit enters the comments, that might make him look more reasonable. “I’m not saying ‘kill all trans people’,” Hyman could say. “I’m only expressing reasonable concerns.” It would allow him to launder his views as the less horrid option and normalize the idea that his “concerns” should be taken seriously when placed in opposition to the “kill all the queers” person.

On the opposite tick, the “ultra-queer ultra-leftist” schtick would be an attempt to both conflate “leftism” with anti-cishet bigotry and make queer leftists seem intolerant of anyone who dares to question “woke gender ideology”. That, in turn, would make him look reasonable when compared to “the intolerant left”.

Maybe Hyman isn’t behind either one of these schticks. But hey, isn’t it weird that the second one didn’t really start showing up until after Hyman needed to start using anonymous posting to keep harassing this site, and this new jackass showed up only after I began calling out the “straight genocide” guy as a sockpuppet?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You don’t get to just dismiss naysayers as not being “right-thinking people” to get around this.

Of course we do.

Let me just say that, even accepting everything else you say after this, it still wouldn’t allow you to simply dismiss all naysayers as not being “right-thinking people” to get around the fact that, right now, the death penalty is highly controversial. So no, no you most certainly do not.

The vast majority of Americans are opposed to LGBTQ+ degeneracy, […]

No, they aren’t. This is also extremely controversial. Do you even know what “uncontroversial” means?

[…] and would require very little encouragement/manipulation to support pogroms against degenerates like trans-identifying scum and their cishet allies.

Now, technically, you didn’t specify which programs they would support, just that they would be against transgender people and their allies. Still, it seems like the context is pretty clear that you mean execution programs, and on that, you are completely wrong.

First, if you have to manipulate them to support your position, that in itself shows that, right now, your position is probably not uncontroversial. “Uncontroversial” means that essentially everyone (within a population) already agrees with you without additional argument or manipulation, not that they can be convinced to agree at some point in the future. It certainly doesn’t mean that you believe you can trick them into supporting it even though they wouldn’t normally. That’s the opposite of “uncontroversial”.

Second, roughly half (if not more) of the U.S. population consists of Democrats or Democrat-leaning independents. The vast majority of them do not object to “LGBTQ+ degeneracy”, as you call it, and most of them actually support LGBTQ+ rights. Opposition to “LGBTQ+ degeneracy” simply is not supported by the vast majority of Americans, and is already controversial. Heck, even right-leaning independents and libertarians are often not opposed to transgender people. I really have no idea where you are getting your information from, but it’s just plain wrong.

Third, again, the death penalty is also opposed by many people. Even if some of them are opposed to “LGBTQ+ degeneracy”, it is highly unlikely that any amount of encouragement or manipulation will convince them to support killing people just for being transgender in view of your children and nothing else, especially since they don’t already support the death penalty for far more heinous crimes like murder, rape, pedophilia, etc.

On top of that, you ignore the fact that many on both sides of the aisle also object to the death penalty for practical reasons even if they agree with the general principle of executing particularly heinous criminals. They, too, are unlikely to be convinced to support complete genocide of any population, period.

And even among those who do support the death penalty and who are opposed to “LGBTQ+ degeneracy”, many of them only support the death penalty for the absolute worst of the worst, not only in terms of what actions they take but the intent behind them. They are highly unlikely to agree to genocide of the entire transgender population. They might support killing the ones who actually do heinous crimes, like murder, rape, or pedophilia, but not literally all transgender people!

The fact is that wanting to execute all transgender people is a fringe position. Every element of that is, at a minimum, quite controversial, and you need all of those elements in a significant majority of the population. You aren’t even close to that.

Also, again regarding saying you can manipulate them into supporting you, this also goes against the “right-thinking people” idea. Saying that right-thinking people would agree on a certain position means that they would agree based on rational thought and accurate, complete information. Manipulating them into agreeing, rather than through honest and open discussion, means that they are no longer “right-thinking”, but that they were cajoled into agreeing with you.

Like, do you even know what words mean? I already know that you have absolutely no idea what constitutes an uncontroversial position to have, to the extent that you think virtually all Americans would agree with you despite the fact that they very clearly do not, but now, you don’t even seem to understand what the word even means, or that saying that you can “manipulate” people into agreeing with you would contradict your assertion that all “right-thinking” people already agree with you.

And yeah, you continue to demonstrate that you have absolutely no concept that people might disagree with you on anything. It is one thing to think that your position is the most logical or moral one, but it is quite another thing to claim that most people already agree with you. The amount of hubris you have is astounding.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The vast majority of them do not object to “LGBTQ+ degeneracy”, as you call it, and most of them actually support LGBTQ+ rights.

Of course they do, especially given how many are women [actual women, not deranged, mentally-ill men who claim that they’re women trapped in men’s bodies].

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

They’re not deranged or necessarily mentally ill no matter how many times you claim it.

At any rate, I did say LGBTQ+, so that means that most people also support transgender people, more than what you claim to do.

Now, if you have evidence to the contrary in the form of statistics or something like that, feel free to present it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

many of them only support the death penalty for the absolute worst of the worst

This is exactly what LGBTQ+ supporting groomers are…the worst of the worst! You’ll get no argument from good people that there’s anything wrong w/ eliminating all sources of biological corruption from the Homeland.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Yes, yes you will get an argument from good people. And plenty of people consider other crimes more heinous than that.

Also, we’re not just talking about alleged groomers, remember?

But yeah, lots of people object to the death penalty being given under any circumstances. I don’t know why you think it’s not controversial, but it is.

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This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Yes, it is, because you’re ultimately suggesting that people be killed, likely by the state but at least with its explicit blessing, for existing as queer. And you can quit while you’re ahead if you think about countering that argument by saying “oh so queer people are groomers by nature” or some other bullshit. You’re not trying to say “we should execute anyone who rapes children”⁠—you’re trying to say “we should execute anyone who might cause my kid to think queer people deserve to live”. If you weren’t, you wouldn’t have used an anti-trans slur and suggested by implication that trans people being part of public life is the same thing as grooming a child for sexual activity. (And by the by? #NotADragQueen might be illuminating for you.)

Please don’t act like you have the best interests of anyone’s children in mind. After all, you’re calling the eradication of an entire segment of the population, including children and young adults, for the “crime” of daring to exist in public. How many queer people have to die for you to feel safe?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Normally, I’d disagree with your assumptions, but given that there’d be no reason to specifically mention both transgender people and groomers separately, as though transgender people who actively try to make kids transgender (which is what he alleges with a more limited interpretation) could plausibly not be groomers, I’m inclined to agree.

That said, it’s worth noting that even the less controversial stance—child rapists should be executed—is still controversial because whether people should be executed at all, regardless of which crime(s) they committed, is itself a highly debated topic, so being either for it or against it is necessarily controversial.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“we should execute anyone who might cause my kid to think queer people deserve to live”

Agreed 100% with you, and just want to recognize your bravery in articulating this.

LGBTQ+ movement is irredeemable. LGB people really should separate from the odious and revolting TQ+ degenerates.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You’re quotemining. Stephen was stating that that was your position, saying that it is an extreme position that plenty of people would disagree with, himself included. It was not him saying what his position.

Seriously, the full quote was:

You’re not trying to say “we should execute anyone who rapes children”⁠—you’re trying to say “we should execute anyone who might cause my kid to think queer people deserve to live”.

(Emphasis added) How you could construe that as an endorsement of the quoted position is beyond me. It’s an clear condemnation. He’s contrasting what you’re actually saying with a far more reasonable—though still controversial—position. He then later says:

Please don’t act like you have the best interests of anyone’s children in mind. After all, you’re calling the eradication of an entire segment of the population, including children and young adults, for the “crime” of daring to exist in public. How many queer people have to die for you to feel safe?

Again, this indicates that he clearly and unequivocally condemns your position, not that he even remotely supports it!

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Yes, it is, because the death penalty itself is controversial, even as applied to convicted serial pedophile, rapists, and/or killers. As such, no matter what one’s opinion on transgender people and “groomers” may be, executing them would still be controversial. Like, you could believe that transgender people are immoral and that groomers should be punished and still easily believe that they shouldn’t be executed.

On top of that, while groomers are almost universally reviled, and the vast majority of people believe that such people should be punished, most people do not hold that same belief regarding LGBTQ+ people who are not groomers (which includes many or most trans people), so you’re lumping in another category of people that there is nowhere near as much agreement on with the group of people that most people do agree on, suggesting that both should receive the exact same, severe punishment. This, obviously, means that your position is definitely controversial.

I really don’t understand why you have a hard time believing this. I mean, most people recognize that the death penalty is itself controversial even if they don’t all understand why some object to it on principle, so any position involving imposing the death penalty will necessarily be controversial, and most people are well aware of this even if they themselves support the death penalty. And as for punishing transgender people who aren’t groomers, if that was not controversial, why is there so much debate about transgender people in general and how we should treat them? What kind of sheltered life have you been living?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

I believe that the entire Republican Party, their rich backers and the 74 million people who voted them in should be masaccred for countless crimes against humanity AND treason and even I think you need to put the crack pipe down, get away from Tiktok and maybe chill.

And yes, even I acknowledge that the aforementioned is controversial for good reason.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

If you haven’t noticed, Techdirt at least one Nazi inn the comment section at least quite a few Quislings who support political violence AND have threatened to harm members of the community more than once.

And, frankly, after Jan 6, I’m surprised that less people don’t consider that political voilence should be used against a group whose leaders ahve been shown to be under the control of outside powers. At the bare minimum.

This is because the Republicans have shown to be more than willing to use political violence to further their agenda. It is not something even I would consider before Jan 6.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’ve never denied that I’ve advocated that everyone should consider the violent approach, of only to realize the gravity of the situation at hand.

But to skip over several threads of one troublesome harasser advocating just that and go to me, well…

I daresay you’ve made up your mind about us.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

to skip over several threads of one troublesome harasser advocating just that and go to me

Hyman is absolutely an anti-queer asshole, but he’s never directly advocated for the genocide of transgender people. You, on the other hand, have done exactly that. If’n you don’t want to get called on your bullshit belief that trans people should be murdered because they’re all pedophiles, you shouldn’t post it in the first place.

And by the by: You can quote my words out of context to make it seem like I support your bullshit, but that trick won’t work here. Those who’ve been here long enough know me well enough to know I wouldn’t be on your side, and those who haven’t can see my original comments⁠—which are clearly not supportive of your genocidal bullshit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Stephen.

Wrong AC.

I’m the violent asshole who advocates for the genocide of the Republican Party, their rich backers and the 74 million who will not be convinced through talk, debate and even the law.

I legit support the right of the LGBTQ+ community to be human beings. And enjoy the rights of human beings,m which is… what they are.

I’m the one who would, without a fucking doubt, use the DSMV to hit Hyman until he stops drawing breath. At minimum.

Not the accuser.

The “conservative ideology” those Quislings love to espouse has harmed and crippled many, many countries outside of its origin. And the espousers have to take responsibility.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As I have said before, the most clever move by woke gender ideologues was to attach their T to the LGB movement and get liberals to believe that trans rights are the same as gay rights. This includes using “queer” to denote both gay and trans people.

Gay rights are not the same as trans rights, because we do not dispute a demonstrated attraction but we easily dispute a demonstrably false belief about identity. If a man says he’s romantically and sexually attracted to men, and we see him behave in ways that demonstrate this attraction, then we believe that his claimed attraction is genuine. When a man claims he is a woman, he is simply delusional.

In any case, I am not “anti-queer” in the sense of not wanting to allow queer people, gay or trans, to live their lives as they see fit, as long as they do not seek to force their beliefs on other people. For trans people, that includes forcing their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, teaching their beliefs as truth in public schools, and forcing other people to affirm their beliefs.

People can believe that being gay or trans is harmful, sinful, delusional, or wrong while still holding that they should not use those beliefs to control the lives of people who do not share them. You can count that as being anti-queer or not. It doesn’t really matter, except to people who care how other people label them.

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An even bigger coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Re x 5

The trouble is not the trans. The trouble is the politics/activist part of this..

Leave the women (including lesbians) and gay men alone and things will calm down. Eveyone already has their rights (human rights), including the “T”:s. But the world have all agreed than women have so many differences from men that certain extra rights have been granted as most of us appreciate the biological womens contribution to society.

That someone has a mental problem with their body does not automatically mean they are a women. That is a fallacy. They just need to understand they can be welcomed and accepted as they are (us oldtimers call this personality, “identities” are just category-boxes and can never allow the full freedom as having your own peronality gives you).

The other problem is the big-corp/government mandated speech that every citizen is supposed to be forced to use. So called pro-nouns. Dictating to someone else “this is how you should see me” reeks of narcissisitic personality disorder).

Now what someone does to their children, I dont care. This a problem between them and the kids. Same goes if someone wants to live in a cult where free speech is prohibited. Be my guest

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Leave the women (including lesbians) and gay men alone and things will calm down.

No. No, they will not. You seem to forget that the first Pride was a riot, that trans and gender-nonconforming people were at that riot (and one of them is credited with throwing the first brick through a cop car), and the same rhetoric being used against gay people back then is being used against trans people now thanks to the fact that attacking gay people is largely seen as the behavior of assholes. Every line about trans people being “groomers” or “recruiters”, about how they’re “coming after kids” and “destroying society”, is the exact same shit bigots were saying about gay people not even ten years ago. Or did you forget about how those anti-gay bigots kept whining about how legalized same-sex marriage was going to destroy society?

“Leave us alone” is the mantra of the marginalized, and it’s aimed at the majority. Queer people want their civil rights, yes, but they also want to be left alone to live their lives with the same kind of peace that cishet people experience. To suggest or demand that marginalized people “leave us alone” by being quiet and staying out of the spotlight is to further marginalize those people.

They just need to understand they can be welcomed and accepted as they are

Who gets to decide who trans people get to be⁠—them or you? Who gets to decide whether trans people deserve the pain of isolation or the joy of community based on who they want to be⁠—them or you? Who gets to decide whether trans people are people⁠—them or you?

The other problem is the big-corp/government mandated speech that every citizen is supposed to be forced to use. So called pro-nouns.

Pronouns are a part of speech, you goddamned fool. I mean, your full comment contains indefinite pronouns (“everyone”), possessive pronouns (“their”), object pronouns (“us”), and personal pronouns (“I”). I doubt you want to see what your comment would read like if I replaced all the pronouns with nouns.

What you think you’re bitching about is government-enforced pronoun usage⁠—which isn’t a thing at all. What you’re actually bitching about is the idea that some people use pronouns that you’re uncomfortable with using in reference to those people. If you want to be open about being an anti-trans bigot, you don’t have to hide it. I promise that I won’t think any less of you than I already do if you come out and say that you think trans people are subhuman filth who must conform to society’s existing gender roles “or else”.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

As I have said before, the most clever move by woke gender ideologues was to attach their T to the LGB movement and get liberals to believe that trans rights are the same as gay rights. This includes using “queer” to denote both gay and trans people.

You do realize that, historically, the LGBT movement began with a dispute over transgender people, and that LGB people were added afterwards, right? You have this backwards.

Gay rights are not the same as trans rights, because we do not dispute a demonstrated attraction but we easily dispute a demonstrably false belief about identity.

According to you, identity is unfalsifiable. By your own logic, then, they do not have a demonstrably false belief about identity.

I agree that not all transphobes are also homophobes and/or biphobes, but you overstate the strength of your position.

When a man claims he is a woman, he is simply delusional.

Not if it is based on a different definition of the term that a lot of people agree with them on, and not if you can’t disprove the claim as it was intended.

People can believe that being gay or trans is harmful, sinful, delusional, or wrong while still holding that they should not use those beliefs to control the lives of people who do not share them. You can count that as being anti-queer or not.

I mean, it literally is, by definition, “anti-queer”; there is a difference between personally held beliefs and wanting to govern other people’s behaviors, but “anti-queer” covers both. I can agree that, among anti-queer people, you are far closer to the former than the latter compared to most.

With that said, “forcing your way into single-sex spaces for which your bodies disqualify you” is not, in itself, forcing your beliefs on others. Forcing the opposition to not vocalize their opinion on it (and not just by calling them bigots), forcing the opposition to vocalize approval of it, or forcing people to engage in whatever behavior is, but you are taking it an additional step that isn’t justified.

Also, not allowing transgender people to enter those spaces is controlling their behavior based on those beliefs. Even if you believe it is justified, that doesn’t change the fact that that’s what it is.

It doesn’t really matter, except to people who care how other people label them.

For someone who doesn’t care how other people label them, you sure like to complain about people (allegedly) unfairly labeling you.

vadim (profile) says:

Back in USSR

This strangely reminds me my growing up in USSR.
I remember a vilification campain organized by Soviet State against Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn following his publication of “The Gulag Archipelago” in the West. Nobody really read the book, it’s name was forbidden to mention, but EVERYBODY was required to sign a petitions declaring that the author told lies and diffamed the Great Soviet Union.
Actually great example of CANCELLING somebody.
So, @Mark Masnick I was unpleasantly surprised by the fact that you’re using the same approach.
And of course a diced to see by myself what is the all fuss about… As i did then (admittedly it is MUCH easier done now than there and then )….
And so i saw “What is a Women” documentary.
And frankly i don’t see there any hatred against transgender people. The only hateful sentiment one could have after seing this documentary would be directed towards politics of big pharma which supposedly reaping enormous profits from promoting Gender Affirming Care.
IMHO the documentary raises valid questions and does not merit “Do not event mention it’s name ” treatment.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

That you don’t understand the difference between the government banning mention of the name of a film and a private citizen choosing not to mention the name completely of their own volition shows you aren’t worth taking seriously regarding free speech.

As for the rest, you are entitled to your opinion, and Mike is entitled to his. However, the fact that you admit it’s a lot easier here and now than there and then should be a clue that maybe the two aren’t actually similar at all.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Right-wing shitbags known for their anti-queer (or at least anti-trans) views are the ones doing most of the promotion for this movie⁠—paid or otherwise. That tells me all I need to know. Besides, why would I ever subject myself to that content if I know I’m going to hate both the content for being anti-queer and myself for voluntarily watching it?

vadim (profile) says:

Re: Re: Back in USSR

Actually, I understand perfectly well the concept of free speech.
I’m simply saying that this “silencing treatment” REMINDS me USSR and I would prefer that Mark would not use it. IMHO The usage of this approach implies that the author does not consider his public mature enough to view the documentary in question and to develop its own opinion. It seems to be somewhat condescending and surprised me.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

this “silencing treatment” REMINDS me USSR

Just so we’re absolutely crystal clear: Are you saying that a private citizen voluntarily refusing to provide free press for a film they (rightfully) believe spreads lies and hatred about queer people⁠—in an article they voluntarily wrote for and posted on their own personal website, no less!⁠—is an act that is even remotely similar to state-enforced censorship mandated by the government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Here I thought 2slgbtqiaa… would have had enough of the transplainers.

What is a woman?

Check out the Canadian womens weight lifting records. lol that’s quite the beard. Probably has the biggest chest of any “woman” ever

You pricks are trying to erase women. Women can’t compete against men or “transwomen” in sports.

Ask your mothers if they mind saving money and having one public bathroom for all. One door instead of two and not necessary to build dividing wall between the two rooms.

Women Scholarships are being lost to some guy who might only be gay, give him some time to figure it out, instead of incentivizing them to claim to be of the other sex and possibly doing irreversible damage to themselves.

A tomboy is still a girl.

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