Mozilla Wonders What Social Media Could Look Like If It Started With A Clear ‘No Assholes’ Policy
from the experiments-are-good dept
Content moderation at scale is impossible to do well. And, contrary to what most people believe, a huge part of content moderation is not “we have to suppress this content that scares us,” but just an attempt to “stop people from being jerks to others.” Unfortunately, too many people get confused, and think that “free speech” means they get to commandeer private property to be assholes to others, which results in confusing fights over people claiming their “free speech” is under attack when the reality is that a private property owner has decided you need to stop being an asshole.
But what if a social media network came along and just said upfront: our policy is no assholes and we’re not ashamed to say we’ll kick you out if you’re being a jackass?
As I’ve been discussing lately, I’m excited about the various new experiments with decentralized, protocol-based social media, because it allows for much more experimentation, and because it enables both services and users to opt-in to what they feel comfortable with. More competition can mean both more innovation (perhaps leading to new insights!), but also more communities trying different things and taking wildly different approaches, allowing users to opt-in to the situation they want.
One thing I’ve been talking about for a while is how the Fediverse/ActivityPub model allows for the possibility of companies to come in and provide much better experiences, that might improve on the core “Mastodon” approach that most (but definitely not all) people on the Fediverse use. And while some people were nervous about “companies” moving into the Fediverse, I was excited to see more corporate interest, because I hoped it would lead to some more interesting approaches.
Mozilla, which announced months ago its intent to enter the Fediverse with some sort of ActivityPub-based instance, recently laid out more details of its private beta plans. Their key differentiator? They plan to be more aggressive in moderating. Rather than presenting themselves as a “neutral” platform, they’re admitting upfront that their moderation plans have an opinion:
Today, we’re expanding Mozilla.social to a private beta. We’ve put a lot of work into getting to this stage, but there is a lot more to do before we open it up more broadly. We’re making a long-term investment because we think we can contribute to making Mastodon, and social media generally, better.
You’ll notice a big difference in our content moderation approach compared to other major social media platforms. We’re not building another self-declared “neutral” platform. We believe that far too often, “neutrality” is used as an excuse to allow behaviors and content that’s designed to harass and harm those from communities that have always faced harassment and violence. Our content moderation plan is rooted in the goals and values expressed in our Mozilla Manifesto — human dignity, inclusion, security, individual expression and collaboration. We understand that individual expression is often seen, particularly in the US, as an absolute right to free speech at any cost. Even if that cost is harm to others. We do not subscribe to this view. We want to be clear about this. We’re building an awesome sandbox for us all to play in, but it comes with rules governing how we engage with one another. You’re completely free to go elsewhere if you don’t like them.
Now, you might not agree with that approach. But the cool thing about ActivityPub/Mastodon is that… you don’t have to. You can just join another instance that takes a more “free speech” type approach.
Letting a lot of communities all figure out how their own norms and rules will work, and letting users choose which ones to support and take part in, seems to function more like the analog world, where social norms, and local communities actually matter. One of the great things about social media has been its ability to connect people across the globe.
But the idea that there could be one single space, with very few rules, where everyone all meets together, has always been… a difficult concept to believe could work. The Mastodon/Fediverse setup of different communities, each with their own set of rules, where some servers agree to communicate across servers, is an interesting one that creates some really interesting incentives.
Mozilla has decided that they’re going to be upfront with how their instance will run, and they think that creating a welcoming community, rather than a shitposting battle royale, makes the most sense for them:
What’s most important to us is that the people who use our instance feel like their experience brings back more of what makes social great – and reduces the muck that has made it horrible.
Who knows how it will work? I think even taking such a strong stance won’t solve the impossibility problem, and they will still face very real moderation challenges should their instance start to scale. And, I think they’ll likely realize that figuring out who is violating these policies will still take a lot of very tricky line drawing, and people will get mad about where those lines are drawn.
But seeing more experiments and more attempts to make Mastodon useable for more people seems like a good experiment to try. And, I’m curious to see what a professionally run social media with a clear “no jackasses” policy looks like.
Filed Under: activitypub, content moderation, fediverse, mastodon
Companies: mozilla


Comments on “Mozilla Wonders What Social Media Could Look Like If It Started With A Clear ‘No Assholes’ Policy”
Of course, people will quickly find out that those instances tend to lack the same reach in the Fediverse that instances with even a minimal “no assholes” policy often enjoy. Then they’ll find out that, like Parler and Truth Social, the isolating effect of being “locked in” with other assholes won’t create a social network that anyone other than assholes want to inhabit. And even most of the assholes won’t stick around for long when they figure out they don’t have anyone to harass.
Wanting unfettered “free speech” on social media is a fine idea in theory. But playing it out always results in disaster.
Re:
See Gab for proof of this. They thought they could jump to a Mastodon fork and pollute the fediverse, but the fediverse wanted none of that.
Amazing
So a Site with Few restrictions.
No personal comments
No adverts(spam), the company has their own.
HOW old is this concept?
Say almost anything you wish, stick to the Subject, and Dont give personal comments.
A group that all have the same idea’s and thoughts, tends to be Very boring. There isnt much to say, no one to convert to your ideals.
IT has a big chance, but WHO is going to get upset.
Hostage taking
Most if not all appeals to “free speech” are moral hostage-taking.
Free speech is a dead issue, since it is one of the few universally held civil liberties everyone believes in.
People appealing to “free speech” are losing an argument or losing an audience, so they take free speech hostage into forcing engagement with them on their terms.
Re:
“Strong words. Strong, bewildering words.”
- Kent Brockman
Re:
“Free speech is a dead issue, since it is one of the few universally held civil liberties everyone believes in.”
It’s also one that people are familiar with how it actually works in reality – namely that other people have free speech as well, not just you. The whining usually comes from people who mistakenly believe that them having “free speech” means that they can never be criticised and that other people have to listen. Neither has ever been true, online or off.
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Re: what are you smoking.
Not only is free speech NOT a dead issue, because its frequently being litigated in courts (did you read the website today), but now is asking for freedom of speech coercing anyone else into being a hostage?
In my experience the people who are against free speech, are the people who want to prohibit other people from thinking about ideas, either because of the moral panic of YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH, or that the truth hurts them too badly in some way (right to be forgotten).
Re: Re:
Shut the fuck up, revenge pornographer.
Free speech means you get the right to talk ABOUT revenge porn, not DO it.
We also know about YOUR failed attempt to use copyright to harass your ex.
No wonder you support the “Republican” Party.
Re: Re:
aka Hyman Rosen
Re: Re: Re:
And, well, the usual “conservative” suspects as well.
And, as it seems, revenge pornographers and failed political candidates and laughingstock of a certain kiwi-related forum.
Re: Re: Re:
EVery accusation a confession? I have never in my life wanted to stop anyone else from speaking on a speech platform. (As opposed to a subway platform – captive audiences should have some rights not to be harangued.)
Re: Re:
YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH
Translation: I can’t be the asshole I want to be.
Re: Re:
I agree. The Florida Republican party comes to mind.
Re: Re: Re:
The entire Republican party comes to mind.
Re: Re: Re:2
That’s pretty much the issue with a vague “no assholes” policy. You are basically already starting at “anyone I don’t like is definitionally an asshole.”
There’s no space for real discussion. You are explicitly starting g an echo chamber and patting yourself on the back like this is somehow a bold and noble experiment.
Re: Re: Re:3
A Florida Republican can act polite and seem well-meaning about book bans and anti-trans laws and attempts to curb the voting rights of college-age adults. Their politeness doesn’t (and shouldn’t) make their bullshit acceptable to anyone but the gullible and the like-minded.
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Re: Re: Re:4
You are demonstrating exactly the problem with the stated policy; it is not seeking to ban people acting reprehensibly, but people whose viewpoints you do not like. No one is going to be fooled by this. You will ban the Babylon Bee for “awarding” Man of the Year to Dr. Rachel Levine, and everyone will see that you’re trying to silence people for what they believe, not for how they’re saying it.
Re: Re: Re:5
For what reason should any privately owned open-to-the-public social media service host speech its owners don’t want to host? Like, why should a pro-trans Masto instance host anti-trans propaganda, other than your twin obsessions with destroying private property rights and inspecting trans children’s genitals?
Re: Re: Re:6
I find it rather telling that they frame anti-trans harassment/bigotry/obsession to be a ‘viewpoint’ rather than ‘acting reprehensibly’ in an attempt to defend it. It’s like someone claiming that they aren’t a racist they just have a differing viewpoint when it comes to racial equality and treatment and that’s why people are showing them the door.
Re: Re: Re:6
They don’t have to if they don’t want to. But then, they should not pretend that they have a “no reprehensible people” policy rather than a “no people with whom we disagree” policy. They will pretend that anyway, of course, and will get laughed at and criticized as usual.
Re: Re: Re:7
They aren’t.
Re: Re: Re:8 Most people 'disagree' with reprehensible people/ideas, go figure
Ah the mental contortions a dishonest bigot has to twist themselves into to avoid owning that to the extent that people ‘disagree’ with them and don’t want them around it’s because they’re a reprehensible person.
Re: Re: Re:9
Delusion: “You call me a Nazi because you disagree with me!”
Reality: We disagree with them because they present themselves as a Nazi.
Re: Re: Re:7
First, I have yet to see evidence that that they are even doing that, so you’re objecting to a purely hypothetical situation.
Second, once again, I fail to see a meaningful distinction between the two that is actually relevant here. They aren’t claiming to support your notion of free speech (note that not everyone agrees with your notion of free speech even if they more generally support free speech), so I don’t see how such a distinction makes any difference at all. Heck, as I see it, they could reasonably feel that expressing these disagreements on their platform is itself reprehensible conduct. What is or isn’t “reprehensible conduct” is ultimately a matter of opinion, so I don’t see how it would be objectively false for them to claim that they have a policy against reprehensible conduct even accepting everything else you say as true. So long as they subjectively believe such things to be reprehensible conduct, the claim is not unreasonable.
“Will”. As in they don’t currently do so. Meaning you are criticizing someone based on a hypothetical future scenario rather than something demonstrably true. You just shot your argument in the foot right there.
And those who do so will likely get laughed at and criticized in turn as usual. So what?
Re: Re: Re:5
You are not here to discuss things, you are here to force your viewpoints on others, so fuck off as we a5re fed up with you stating the same thing time after time after time.
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Re: Re: Re:6
You want to be constantly wrong and be corrected only once? Sorry, it doesn’t work like that.
Re: Re: Re:7
[Hyman Rosen projects facts contrary to reality as always]
Re: Re: Re:7
And you have just proven you are a bigoted troll who does not respect other peoples rights.
Re: Re: Re:7
You have yet to demonstrate that anything they have said or believed on this subject is actually, demonstrably wrong. As such, you haven’t even corrected them once; only objected to them.
Moreover, people here almost never bring up transgender issues except in response to people like you. You aren’t correcting what people here are saying; you’re just stating your viewpoint over and over again even when it is off-topic.
Re: Re: Re:5
The second statement disproves the first.
Re: Re: Re:5
I don’t see how that’s a meaningful distinction in this context. From their POV, sharing these viewpoints they don’t like is reprehensible conduct. Both are ultimately matters of opinion, too. I simply don’t understand why this is a problem.
Re: Re: Re:6
The idea is that reprehensible behavior is independent of its content. You can behave reprehensibly against woke gender ideology (calling people “tranny”, perhaps) or for it (such as ripping signs out of TERFs’ hands).
Most people, other than ideologues, don’t regard holding a different opinion as reprehensible. When you claim to be banning disagreeable people but are really only banning people with whom you disagree, you are lying to your users.
Re: Re: Re:3
It ain’t about fee-fees, JHON.
It’s about, at the bare minimum, realizing that people are gonna be assholes, setting down ground rules for safe interaction, and banning those who repeatedly break those rules.
And, at said bare minimum, if you don’t like those rules, go find somewhere else that welcomes assholes.
People are going to disagree over everything. Which programming language is better, favorite games, even on political ideologies. Which is why rules on safe social interaction online exist. Sure, you can go the 4chan route, but you can’t contain people who refuse to play by unwritten rules for long.
Re: Re: Re:3
…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re: Re: Re:3
You can’t show that happening out here in the non-hallicinatory world.
Re: Re: Re:3 No Assholes has never meant No Disagreement
“No assholes” doesn’t mean “no people I dislike”, and the only people who think it does are sad they can’t be assholes and remain on the platform.
Disagreement? OK
Loud disagreement? OK
People I dislike? OK (if I’m not forced to listen to them rant about how I shouldn’t exist)
Continuous loud repetitive disagreement that verges on harassment? Not OK
Re: Re: Re:2
Democrats are no better. I’m a conservative democrat, and I’ve been banned from democrat forums before for pointing out uncomfortable truths and unpopular facts – essentially for talking like a conservative democrat (AKA a liberal) instead of a progressive democrat.
Re: Re: Re:3
Bergman, did you read the room?
Re: Re: Re:3
So, what were those “uncomfortable truths”?
And How did you express them?
Re: Re: Re:3
Oh, so you’re a libertarian.
Re: Re: Hostage taking, explained
Yes.
In any discourse, read the context:
1. Did the communicator say/write/perform something?
2. Was the message heard/read/seen?
If you answered yes to both, congratulations, you have free speech. That’s free speech for you, in a nutshell.
If you answered no to either, it does not mean an act of censorship occurred. There are more than two possibilities besides free speech and censorship.
If you’re a speaker/creator/performer, and you cannot find a platform or an audience, that is all on you. Nobody owes you their time, money, energy or attention. If the only way you can get theirs is by playing the victim, pounding a rulebook, and making people do what they otherwise wouldn’t when given the choice, then you are hostage taking.
You’re not maintaining a conversation. You are trying to extract concessions.
Re:
Sometimes I worry about how that’s not true. Believing in that begs the question of having the basic empathy to recognize that other people exist, and a few (but sometimes powerful) folks don’t clear that bar.
Re:
Hardly. I’d argue almost nobody truly does, though many will state they do.
The first problem about it is that for people living in democracies (especially the US), having a legal definition of free speech causes a confusion between the law, which is just a tool, and the actual value of free speech as a concept. If you ask people why they think free speech is a good thing (if they do in the first place, which is increasingly not all that universal), they will almost always fail to mention that free speech serves the listener more than it does the speaker. That in fact, it serves everyone and makes us all able to identify problems in our societies.
Being exposed to an idea is a good thing no matter who happens to think that this idea should not be expressed. Be it the government, a company or the local homeowner’s association, it really makes no difference whatsoever. However, the law typically gives non-government entities broad authority over what kind of communication can happen using their stuff.
Of course, legally that makes sense. But just because someone or some company can legally exercise this right to censor doesn’t mean they should. Again, being an obstacle to the diffusion of ideas is not a good thing. It should only be done when seriously considering the implications and taking the utmost care in letting potentially interested listeners still take part if they wish so.
To me the central issue with speech online is that of user choice. The current model of centralized and federated platforms doesn’t really deal with this adequately. The individual user should have the power to decide what they want to listen to and talk about. We’re all different, and there’s only an extremely thin slice of discourse that’s universally considered not worth listening to.
The problem with this of course, is ideological ostracism. For a staggering amount of people, if they see someone even just unwillingly in contact with content that belongs to an enemy ideology, that someone becomes suspicious, as they could be an enemy hiding their true colors. You see this playing out like clockwork with the Fediverse. If you don’t understand what I mean, here’s a relatively uncontroversial example: climate action advocates routinely get criticized for having debates with the other side of the issue. This is tribal logic, and it’s killing us.
Re: Re:
“climate action advocates routinely get criticized for having debates with the other side of the issue.”
The problem with doing this is that the skeptics use it to legitimise their nonsense (and climate is only one of the subjects they do it for). “See? Dr Serious Person thinks I’m worth responding to! What are they afraid of? They take my ideas seriously!”
It gives them publicity and fund raising capacity too. It makes the media report on both sides as if the idiot’s side might have a point.
That’s why Dr Serious Person and co are urged not to debate people like Ken Ham or antivaxxers or climate change loons. They end up being like the courts dealing with sovereign citizens – bogged down so much they can’t do their legitimate work, while the sovcits go on their merry way, unconvinced they are wrong in the smallest way, and heroes to their comrades.
Free speech may be good, but debate is neither a right, nor advisable in many cases.
Re: Re:
I argue the contrary. Law, just a tool? That’s like saying the Grand Canyon is just a hole in the ground.
The fact that speaking freely is deemed enough of a public concern to warrant being backed by the force of law shows how much it is valued in the culture.
Try living in a society where it’s actively suppressed by government. Or even try to speak freely in a culture with weak state capacity and what Francis Fukuyama calls low-trust societies. Sure, you’re free to speak, but what good is it in a society where most laws and norms are enforced off the books, or you live in a culture that holds individual expression in low regard?
This would be true had the internet not existed.
Take this sentiment to the logical end, we have the Herman Cain Awards and the Youtube far-right autoplay pipeline.
It’s an interesting, even appealing approach, but all too often I’ve seen rules about civility and ‘niceness’ weaponised against the very people they claim to protect, by the very people who threaten them.
If your rules allow a TERF or a racist to spew bigotry politely using big words and sounding oh so reasonable, but ban the victims of transphobia or racism from saying ‘fuck’ or being angry, all you’ve done is make bigots the winners.
I’ve seen this over and over and over again in communities going back to Yahoo groups. Angry people are punished no matter what the cause, and those deliberately provoking or trolling are protected. It doesn’t matter if the subject is fanfiction, knitting, or Nazis. Those who seek to remove the weak or non-conforming find comfort in rules about decorum.
Did we not just see a perfect example of how this works in Montana?
Mozilla is going to have to be very careful not to let that be the default, and I suspect the cost of active, balanced moderation will defeat the project.
Re:
Solving that problem mostly involves continuity of identity. Back on BBS networks where it was non-trivial to get multiple accounts, if you kept bringing up the same discredited points repeatedly the moderators would warn you about the “no trolling” policy and then give you an involuntary vacation from posting. Keep it up and the vacation became permanent. Being unable to easily create a new account made that a serious enough threat to keep the trolls mostly under control. With Mozilla running their own instance, they can at least locally enforce rules that’ll do that well enough.
Plus it helped that the moderators were selected to have thick skins. “If you don’t agree with my enforcement of the rules, take it up with the network admins.” tended to shut most of the trolls up.
Re: Re:
I think you have missed the entire point of my comment 🙁
Re: Re:
And then you eventually run into the problem of “what if a mod/admin IS the asshole/troll?”
Active moderation is necessary, but so is screening the mods as well.
Re: Re: Re:
“so is screening the mods”
Unlike Reddit or Mastodon, one assumes the mods are paid employees so the standards can be whatever Mozilla imposes.
Just like Twitter, in fact 🙂
Re: Re: Re:2
And when Mozilla gets an asshole, powertripping mod/admin, we can only hope that an angry letter can get them to see the error of their ways.
After all, even I shudder to escalate my responses.
Re: Re: Re:
And what if their manager is named Karen?
Re: Re: Re:2
Being named “Karen” is not a barrier to effective moderation.
I’ve had the displeasure of not only being the favorite of a powertripping admin, but also the subject of their whims.
Karenlike behavior is not limited to people named Karen.
Re: Re: Re:3
You’re what happens when 25 years of educational policy treat STEMas the only subjects worthknowing.
Re: Re: Re:4
…what.
That’s personal experience talking.
What in the fuck does STEM or the lack thereof have to do with “moderation needs a human touch, and also does not need assholes” do you not get?
Re: Re: Re:5
The rhetorical question to which you were responding was not suggesting that problems would arise if and only if a moderator’s given name was Karen. It was being mildly funny about the difficulties arising from people with a specific cluster of behaviours and attitudes embodied in the current discourse in the figure of “Karen”. Your inability to recognise so common a rhetorical device, despite exhibiting familiarity with the concept of “Karenlike behaviour”, suggests you weren’t read to enough as a child. I’m not blaming you. Just pointing out that the focus in education on producing employable technicians for industry has had some undesireable unintended outcomes.
Re: Re: Re:6
I’m not sorry I don’t find that joke funny.
Moderation is legitimately serious business, and I don’t really care about the context.
A bad mod/admin/community manager can hurt communities, and I’ve seen the results firsthand, at least several times.
And can sometimes make bad products as well. Especially if the product is a game.
Re: Re: Re:7
You don’t have to find it funny to understand that it is not meant literally.
Re: Re: Accounts
This is the key problem. What good is banning if someone can return as Anon2, 3, 4, etc.? Even removing anonymity may not solve the problem, because in a world of many countries, many ID systems, none universal, how do you fixate an ID?
Then too, determining what crosses the line is another problem.
Volume is a problem. Relying on the participants to report assholery means that assholes will report the ones trying to contradict their rants. Paid moderators means money – how many paid moderators would it take to actively regulate all of Twitter?
This is why online chat sites need to be immune from being sued for the content others provide. It cannot be done.
Re: Re: Re:
Banning people and keeping them banned, while not a solved problem in the strictest of senses, is something that every site that allows any kind of user interaction at all has had to do since the inception of the Internet.
If someone comes back despite that, either they behave differently — in which case, problem solved — or you just… ban them again. Banning people is actually very easy!
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Re:
You’re an asshole, no social media would let you in.
Terfs are right, btw. It’s hilarious to hear you pretend that’s the same category as racism.
Re: Re:
…said nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re: Re: Re:
I have people like Hyman blocked so I can’t see their hate.
Please don’t requote them. I don’t want to block you 🙁
Re: Re:
It’s hilarious to see you pretend that they’re not in the same category.
Re:
We see this in UK politics a lot. Horrific / inhumane policy is proposed but couched in polite language, wrapped in a flag and pitched as ‘decency’ or ‘tradition’.
Group who will be affected by said policy react angrily at (further) attack on their rights (or existence).
Original proposer (and supporting press) latch onto the angry reaction and claim victimhood.
Story shifts to angry reaction not discriminatory policy.
Rinse and repeat.
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Isn’t this just whining from people too cheap to purchase advertising?
So, this is modern forum?
I have been in mod fights but that was where admin “owned” the Forum. (PHP are you still alive?)
Mods going off on the poster like “the hand of god” was not too much of a problem because there are rules, and mods did not get paid – don’t let the door hit you in the ass leaving.
I recall Yahoo groups. I tried to use it, never worked out.
I’m going to watch and read up. I’m not in active in the Mastodon/Fediverse so maybe it is time.
I could not believe how thin skinned some mods were. Different kind of community, there was no walk in and start posting crazy because, in my case as mod back then I would only bounce trouble maker to admin when it was time to kill account.
If Mozilla has found a way to return to the Forum feel (admin, mods, user posting and sharing without central control like Twitter it may be fun).
InvisibleCat
No different, in broad strokes, than any of the other innumerable social spaces that employ that same policy, I should think.
“No assholes” is not a particularly revolutionary idea in this arena.
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Mozilla driven into irrelevancy.
Mozilla has repeatedly shown that they are
1) unable to create new products without them failing miserably.
2) refusing to maintain the products that their core users want.
3) deprecating features of their products that people actually wanted use.
3) dumping money into woke ideological missions, that piss off their userbase, and are antithetical to the “open source” ethos they were founded on.
Their main source of revenue for the longest time was Google, just so that they could keep from being viewed as a monopoly in some antitrust action.
Not to mention that a Substack writer has discovered evidence that the foundation is paying non existant companies, and funneling money into politics, so it seems quite possible there is some money laundering going on.
Re:
3/10
Try harder.
Re:
None of which has anything to do with their fediverse moderation strategy, even if it’s all true.
Re:
Even granting everything you just said, so what? How is any of that relevant to the article?
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Even $500 Million a Year From Google Isn’t Enough to Save Firefox
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-05-05/google-chrome-dominance-has-mozilla-firefox-searching-for-answers?leadSource=uverify%20wall
The search giant pays a small fortune to its ostensible competitor, but Mozilla is still struggling to use that capital to fund a second act.
At the least, Mozilla’s reliance on Google, a company facing multiple antitrust lawsuits, is awkward. The US Department of Justice nodded to Google’s past as “scrappy startup” when it sued the company in 2020 for alleged anticompetitive behavior in the search market. “That Google is long gone,” the government wrote in its complaint. “The Google of today is a monopoly gatekeeper for the internet.” Google has called the government’s case “deeply flawed” and said it would actually hurt consumers, who use Google’s services because they see them as the best options.
When such claims were being made about Microsoft, Mozilla threw its weight into the campaign to break the company’s hold on the market. It’s been noticeably less active in efforts to address Google’s power. For instance, Mozilla issued a statement objecting to the DOJ’s 2020 lawsuit, saying it threatened to “cause collateral damage to the very organizations—like Mozilla—best positioned to drive competition and protect the interests of consumers on the web.”
One former executive at Mozilla, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of antagonizing a past employer, said there was a long-running understanding about Google within Mozilla. “We all know, all executives know, that you are not going to go out and bash Google,” he said. “And that’s clear.”
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Re: Mike Masnick Paid by Google
Go look at the Copia institute website, its clear as day, he get paid to shill the messages of his paymasters, or at least is afraid to cross their ire.
Re: Re:
You’re not the first person to make that claim. You’re also not the first person who has made that claim without any proof. Maybe find some of that to set yourself apart from those assholes—or not. Your call.
Re: Re:
Note: There’s not a scintilla of evidence of intelligent life behind any of benjamin’s other posts, either.
Re: Re: Re:
And not just his posts here.
Yes, all his posts (and legal cases and failed political candidacy) lack more than any form of intelligence.
Re: Re:
And yet it has never once prevented Mike from criticizing Google, nor have you identified anything he has said in support of Google that is factually wrong. Moreover, there is zero evidence that Google would even threaten to withhold funding for the Copia Institute should Mike fail to do something in favor of Google or should he speak out against Google, nor is there any evidence that anything Mike said was provided by Google.
For a corporate shill, he doesn’t seem to be toeing the corporate line very well.
Re: Re:
“Go look at the Copia institute website”
We have. We’re yet to see evidence that anything there has an effect on editorial content, or why we should think that only one of the sponsors does so. You notably don’t whine about the other names on the list.
The problem with the “No Assholes” policy is, we’re all assholes.
Re:
All assholes are equal, but some assholes are more equal than others.
Re:
Yes and no. We all have opinions that could leave us described as such in the wrong company. But, most adults have learned with to keep those opinions to ourselves, or to accept that a community that doesn’t share them is not the best place for us. The problem only ones when someone who refuses to control themselves tries to enforce themselves in a place that doesn’t want them.
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Mozilla fired Brendan Eich for opposing same-sex marriage, so we have some idea of what they will consider appropriate to say. Whatever. Their platform, their rules.
It does continue to astonish me that a self-proclaimed advocate of free speech does not consider it violative of free speech to prevent someone from speaking freely. Once more, the 1st Amendment is not the totality of free speech. Free speech is the ability to speak without being silenced based on viewpoint. Even when the silencers have the right to do so, and the silenced do not have a right to speak, the silencers are nevertheless depriving the silenced of free speech. This is true regardless of the viewpoint. If Facebook bans people from saying transwomen are men, or Florida bans teachers from saying transwomen are women, the speakers have been deprived of free speech, censored, regardless of the fact that Facebook and Florida are both acting within their rights, and regardless of the fact that the speakers may state their views elsewhere.
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Why do you insist that you have a right to intrude on platforms that have asked you to leave. Even the most missionary of the Jehovah witnesses go elsewhere to peddle their faith when informed of a lack of interest.
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The owner of this platform maintains a façade of supporting free speech, and does not generally ban even people he very much wishes would stop telling him that he’s wrong.
I enjoy telling wrong people that they’re wrong.
It’s a match made in heaven. Or hell, maybe. Whichever, it’s fun.
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Yes, yes, you enjoy the idea of harassing trans people out of public life (and possibly into an open grave), we get it. Christ, you really do love shitting on places that are at least welcoming to marginalized people, don’t you, Hyman.
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What you enjoy is considered HARASSMENT.
In real life, that’s a CRIMINAL OFFENSE.
It is legit impossible to boot you off here due to the nature of anonymous posting, and Mike clearly thinks you deserve to speak, at the very least.
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In real life, attempting to prosecute a statement of differences of opinion as criminal harassment would be laughed out of court quicker than Nunes’s cow.
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But repeatedly, knowingly, and purposefully getting in someone’s face to tell them that they’re less than human only for being transgender—and doing so with unbridled, almost orgasmic glee—like Hyman has said (multiple times!) he would have no problem doing in meatspace? That would be criminal harassment. At the very least, it would probably earn him a punch to the nose.
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Moo.
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Hyman is already doing it HERE.
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Which really isn’t happening here, especially when the OWNER OF THE SITE has told you repeatedly to either play nice or fuck off.
Why do you hate property laws, Hyman? Is it because it lets property owners VIOLENTLY kick you out, sometimes with LETHAL FORCE if necessary?
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No, I love that property laws let owners stand their ground and use up to lethal force on rioters, looters, and arsonists. Even on crazed, stinking bums in the subway.
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Yes, yes, Hyman, we know you believe everyone who becomes homeless waits exactly one second before becoming a crack addict with violent tendencies who should be executed like a rabid dog in the street. We get it. Go fuck yourself.
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Note that local governments, including or especially extremely liberal ones, have largely failed to provide adequate support for people who have become homeless. I wish they were better at it.
That said, you play the usual woke games of conflating “normal” homeless people with crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums. Those two groups are not the same. Society needs to protect the former and be protected from the latter. Here in NYC, Mayor Adams had the right idea in proposing to involuntarily hospitalize the bums.
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Agreed, though you have previously said things that suggest you don’t believe that based on what policies you have criticized or supported in the past.
No, you’re the one who conflates efforts by the left to protect the former with efforts to protect the latter. Every instance you’ve pointed to of people allegedly protecting the latter has not been directed towards them but just homeless people.
For example, you’ve pointed to anti-discrimination legislation that prohibits discrimination based on whether or not someone is homeless. That doesn’t prohibit discrimination based on being “crazed”, “stinking”, “drug-addled”, or “possibly dangerous”. As such, that isn’t protection of the latter group or removal of all protections from them.
Basically, if you recognize that as an important distinction, then you are attacking a strawman. Woke people are not defending the “crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums” except to the same extent that “normal” homeless people are protected (from discrimination based on being homeless) or that anyone else “crazed, […] drug-addled, [and/or] possibly dangerous” receives. None of the laws you criticize protect such people like you claim, and—with the possible exception of Mayor Adams’ proposal—none of the laws you supported make such a distinction, either.
Agreed.
That depends on how you define “crazed” and “drug-addled” and how you determine that someone is “crazed”, “drug-addled”, and/or “possibly dangerous”. Someone addicted to caffeine could technically be “drug-addled”, and someone with autism could technically be “crazed”. Moreover, lots of people presume people are crazed, drug-addled, and/or possibly dangerous for poor reasons; some even assume that all homeless people are necessarily “possibly dangerous”.
That said, as a general statement, I don’t think many necessarily disagree with that except possibly to say that it is not a big enough issue to require protections against (I’m not going to argue for or against that). However, I do have an issue with singling out “bums” who fit those descriptors, as well as why their odor is remotely relevant. Frankly, if you just said that people should be protected from anyone—regardless of odor or whether or not they are homeless—who is crazed, drug-addled, and possibly dangerous, you probably wouldn’t receive as many strong objections. Like, I’m sorry, but I don’t think those two qualities are relevant here.
Again, my biggest issue is that it solely targets homeless people who fit these criteria when, if such a policy is justified, it should not be restricted to homeless people.
Moreover, the devil is in the details. How does Mayor Adams propose determining which homeless people are sufficiently crazed, drug-addled, and/or possibly dangerous to merit involuntary hospitalization? What kind of hospitals are we talking about? And there are many other questions that should be answered before agreeing with Mayor Adams’s proposal.
Finally, involuntary hospitalization should be the exception, not the rule. Absent some demonstrable or professed (not merely possible) danger they present to themselves or others (along with proof of a mental disorder that would likely cause them to present that danger) or a conviction for some other criminal act related to drug-use consistent with addiction or being intoxicated by said drug(s) (not merely possession or distribution), I don’t think it is possible to justify involuntary hospitalization outside of a medical emergency that occurs while they are unable to provide consent or to actively deny consent (assuming they don’t have a living will that specifically rejects future hospitalization for such emergencies). People do and should—for the most part—have the right to refuse medical treatment except in very limited circumstances. Adding being homeless and (possibly) having a strong odor doesn’t contribute to this at all, so singling them out doesn’t help.
Now, I’m not saying that some other form of protection from such people couldn’t be implemented, nor that involuntary hospitalization is never justified. I just think that you haven’t provided enough information to make many important issues clear, that it could be abused, and that it is simultaneously too broad (presenting possible danger rather than demonstrable, likely, and/or professed danger) and too narrow (singling out homeless people while ignoring otherwise similar people who aren’t homeless).
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No. You enjoy strawmanning people you disagree with and then telling them that the strawman you made of them is wrong, and you like telling people you disagree with that they’re wrong even if you cannot (or will not) actually demonstrate that any of the points you disagree with them on are objectively wrong (not just a difference of opinion or something you reject regardless of the evidence). Alternatively, you enjoy telling people you disagree with that you think they’re wrong. You do a terrible job of pointing out things that people actually say or believe that are demonstrably and objectively false.
Heck, maybe you really do enjoy telling wrong people that they’re wrong; you’re just really bad at it.
Additionally, you also like to bring up points of disagreement that are completely off-topic, and even do so for articles where you don’t disagree with anything the article actually says.
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Hyman.
Do I have to escalate my responses to you to the point I get flagged to shut you up?
YOU are HARASSING us.
I DO NOT WANT TO BE IN OUR GENERAL DIRECTION.
You HAVE BEEN WARNED MULTIPLE TIMES TO STOP ACTING LIKE A WHITE SUPEMACIST.
Oh, THE RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH MEANS YOU FUCK OFF AND GET YOUR OWN BLOG OR SOMETHING OR MIKE STARTS CONSIDERING A PERSONAL PROTECTION ORDER AGAINST YOU.
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There, there, dear. You don’t have to get angry for me not to like you. I don’t like you even when you’re not angry.
Anyway, as always, the TechDirt community likes to conflate free speech with the right to free speech, so that they can hide behind the 1st Amendment to say that people who they want to censor have no such right. True but irrelevant. A society that has free speech as a foundational value should choose not to silence opinions based on viewpoint.
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Tell that to the Republicans trying to ban Critical Race Theory, you stupid, hateful, harassment-enjoying son of a bitch.
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Critical race theory is false, so it should not be taught as true in public schools. It should be discussed as a theory that some people have about society, not banned from discussion.
If there were any Republicans here, this is what I would be telling them. And of course, on right-leaning sites, that is something that would get me banned.
I like that long list of adjectives, but you forgot to change the font style to show me how you really feel.
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And it never has been. Phew, that was a lot of work to accomplish nothing in particular. Oh well, back to the outrage mines, I hear there are promising rumblings coming out of shaft 24.
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The funniest thing I’ve seen from these people recently was the outrage over Dr Seuss books. In case you missed it, the publisher decided to announce they were going to stop selling a few more obscure books because of racist content. The right wing outrage machine picked up on it, and they decide to respond by… buying a bunch of Dr Seuss books in protest. As dumb as this was, when you looked at the books that were sold, the titles that were being discontinued were at the bottom of the list, thus confirming the original decision. Despite some claims, nobody was going to ban Cat In The Hat, but some people were very angry as if it was.
Same thing with “CRT”. They’re told that it teaches white children to be ashamed of themselves, but it neither does that nor is taught at the schools they claim it is. But they’re very outraged. If only there was a way to harness this anger for real issues.
The problem is, because their anger is so unfocussed on real issues, they seem to be trying to burn books that aren’t related. I’ve heard claims that certain groups have removed books about civil rights from schools (because they dare talk about the racism that led to civil rights action being necessary) and even a book about seahorses (apparently, mentioning that one creature in nature has the male give birth is trying to convince boys that they should be girls or such nonsense).
I doubt our friend above could describe critical race theory accurately if challenged, let alone where it’s taught, but there people are angry, ignorant and they vote.
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And yet, you openly support the same lawmakers trying to do exactly that—on top of all the anti-trans, anti-homeless, anti–property rights, and pro-harassment positions that both you and they support.
Does it hurt to be as hateful as you, or did your precious godking Donald Trump teach you how to hate without feeling anything, you fucking sociopath?
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Does it hurt to be as hateful as you, or did your precious godking Donald Trump teach you how to hate without feeling anything, you fucking sociopath?
You left out what I’d consider the most likely option: They’re a hate junky and bigotry and harassment is their drug of choice.
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[citation needed] I may not be entirely convinced that it is necessarily true, but I’m also not convinced that it’s necessarily false, either.
Which it never was, at least not below college level, if that.
Good. We agree, then.
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Which has not happened here.
meanwhile you continue to harass us.
Even I know when I’ve outstayed my welcome, but you? Clearly even your ilk thought you were repulsive enough to kick you out.
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Nobody wants to silence you based on your viewpoint and opinions.
People want to silence you because you act like a fucking asshole.
It’s amazing to me that you are just too fucking stupid to understand the difference.
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Since people seem to develop negative opinions about people who disagree with them, I don’t accept your distinction.
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People also develop negative opinions about authoritarians who insist that their view of how things should be is correct, so take your absolutists views somewhere else.
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You can profess your disagreement in many cases without being an asshole. Provoking negative emotions in someone else is not sufficient to make someone an asshole.
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Again, you categorically reject as absurd the idea that other notions for free speech besides can also exist and be reasonable, but you give no justification as to why.
Also, I can think of several notions for free speech that go beyond the protections of the 1A that would not be consistent with yours. One can readily disagree with your notion of free speech without conflating free speech with the 1A protections for free speech.
Moreover, whether you think of free speech as the right afforded by the 1A or as something more, it would still be a right; just not necessarily a legal one. You’re conflating “right” with “legal right”, but moral rights also exist and are not confined to the law at all, as do other kinds of rights. One could reasonably argue that free speech doesn’t entail any right (legal, moral, or otherwise) to say whatever you want on private property without being kicked out, and that wouldn’t be conflating free speech with the protections guaranteed by the freedom-of-speech clause in the 1A.
On top of all that, not everyone agrees with your definition of “to silence”, either, so one can agree with the statement, “A society that has free speech as a foundational value should choose not to silence opinions based on viewpoint,” but also disagree that private platforms that moderate content on their platforms based on viewpoint are necessarily silencing opinions to begin with. You may consider the idea that they can speak elsewhere irrelevant, but you haven’t given an objective reason why others should agree with that rather than considering it critical to determining whether someone was silenced in the first place, let alone based on viewpoint, nor have you pointed to any common ground in subjective beliefs that would justify doing so, either.
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Nobody literate lies that not being given a megaphone is the same as being prevented from speaking freely like you do, Hyman.
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Because choosing not to host certain speech on their platform doesn’t actually prevent someone from speaking freely. They can say it elsewhere. You may not consider that sufficient replacement, but that is just your opinion.
Your definition of free speech, sure, but then lots of people disagree with your definition of free speech. Some do consider the 1A to be the totality of free speech, and that is not necessarily an unreasonable or hypocritical position to take. Others may merely disagree with you on how far beyond the 1A free speech goes, saying that as long as the platform doesn’t have a literal monopoly (not just something close to it) on speech being shared over some general medium (so, the internet as a whole, rather than a specific website) or in some general geographic location (like a city, not a specific building), and the speech in question isn’t about the forum itself or its owner(s), that platform removing speech from its platform doesn’t infringe on anyone’s free speech. That, too, is not necessarily unreasonable or hypocritical.
The problem is that you assert that your notion of free speech is the only valid or reasonable one, and that simply isn’t the case. As such, one can violate your notion of free speech while still calling themselves supportive of free speech without being hypocritical or unreasonable. They just don’t support your notion of free speech. It is perfectly fine to disagree on how far—if at all—free speech extends beyond the 1A. No one is obligated to agree with your notion of it.
No one is obligated to agree with that definition. There are plenty of other perfectly valid definitions for free speech. On top of that, this also depends on how you define “silenced”. Reasonable people can disagree with your definition of “to silence” in this context even if they agree with the statement itself.
Again, people can violate your notion of free speech while still being supportive of free speech under some other, perfectly valid notion of free speech. This doesn’t make them wrong, unreasonable, or hypocrites. It just means they don’t agree with you about what it means to support free speech, which is fine.
This statement is nonsensical unless you either a) don’t believe free speech is a right, in which case I have no idea why you say others infringe on it, or b) you mean legal right, not moral or ethical right.
Assuming b, again, people can reasonably disagree with you on either that that would be “depriving the silenced of free speech” or whether or not the actions you call “silencing” are actually “silencing” for the purposes of free speech. Once again, you are assuming that, when someone says they support free speech, they mean specifically your notion of free speech and not some other reasonable notion of free speech. Otherwise, there is nothing false, hypocritical, or unreasonable for someone to make that claim while also acting in a way you consider to be infringing on someone’s free speech.
Again, reasonable people can disagree, particularly on the former (since the latter would be the government doing the act, which changes things). You may have that opinion, but that doesn’t mean others ought to agree with your definitions for “free speech” and “to silence”, let alone that they actually do.
Frankly, I don’t understand why you cannot comprehend how people can reasonably disagree with your notion of free speech being the “proper” notion of free speech.
No.
There are two things I consider to be self-evident concerning this “new” idea:
1) nobody should willingly aim to be an asshole in a conversation, however
2) an opportunity to speech first and foremost conditioned by arbitrary people never taking offense in what you say is a waste of your time and an insult not worth bothering with.
who defines who the assholes are?
Social media is ad-supported and experiments with subscription-supported social media, to the extent it’s been tried, are unsuccessful because social media is too trivial to actually pay for.
Since advertisers are in charge, they define who the assholes are. That’s behind all the Twitter problems. They didn’t like Musk’s re-definition and left.
The alternative is to actually figure out subscription-based social media without much or any advertiser support. Then the subscribers are in charge and can define “assholes” by community standards. Whoever the biggest group is, their definition will prevail and the others will leave.
Maybe the ones who remain need to pay a higher subscription rate because the costs aren’t being amortized as widely as before, but if it’s worth it to have a place where “those people” can’t intrude, the financial model could succeed.
Note that I’m making no assumptions about who “those people” will be. Maybe the biggest group willing to shell out actual money will be Trump supporters and everyone else will be driven out. We won’t know till it’s actually tried.
The paradox of tolerance in action
If you let everyone, even the hostile and toxic speak freely eventually the only people in the room will be the hostile and toxic since they’ll have driven off or intimidated into silence everyone else, so as counter-intuitive as it might seem at first in the interests of allowing the greatest number of people the ability to speak those trying to ruin it for everyone basically must get the ‘Shape up or get out’ treatment.
While ‘everyone can say whatever they want because we want to support free speech’ might sound good on paper it assumes that everyone involved is doing so in good faith and ignores that some of that speech might be aimed at driving out and/or silencing others that might speak, meaning a hands off approach is just giving those toxic individuals the heckler’s veto and letting them decide who gets to use a platform even if they might be a tiny minority of it’s users.
It sounds like a good policy in theory but implementation in practice is always gonna be a problem. From the vagueness of definitions to what happens when the assholes are on the moderation team and all sorts of other issues, it’s impossible to take that simple policy and scale it up.