Court Makes It Clear: Government Submissions To Twitter Flagging Program Do Not Violate The 1st Amendment

from the coercion-is-the-key dept

There’s been a lot of discussion of late, especially because of the various Twitter Files, regarding where the line is between governments simply flagging content for social media websites to vet against their own policies as compared to unconstitutional and impermissible suppression of speech in violation of the 1st Amendment.

As we’ve highlighted over and over again, the courts of these so-called “jawboning” cases have been pretty clear that there needs to be a coercive element to make it a 1st Amendment violation. Judge Posner’s ruling in the Backpage v. Dart case in the 7th Circuit lays it out pretty clearly back in 2015, citing back to the 2nd Circuit’s Okwedy v. Molinari case:

The difference between government expression and intimidation—the first permitted by the First Amendment, the latter forbidden by it—is well explained in Okwedy v. Molinari, 333 F.3d 339, 344 (2d Cir. 2003) (per curiam): “the fact that a public-official defendant lacks direct regulatory or decisionmaking authority over a plaintiff, or a third party that is publishing or otherwise disseminating the plaintiff’s message, is not necessarily dispositive … . What matters is the distinction between attempts to convince and attempts to coerce. A public-official defendant who threatens to employ coercive state power to stifle protected speech violates a plaintiff’s First Amendment rights, regardless of whether the threatened punishment comes in the form of the use (or, misuse) of the defendant’s direct regulatory or decision-making authority over the plaintiff, or in some less-direct form.”

A few years back, we highlighted what we thought was an interesting case regarding social media and jawboning by state officials brought by Shiva Ayyadurai. Despite Ayyadurai’s history of trying to destroy our own site, as well as some of the dubious claims that resulted in his own case, we thought he raised a potentially worthwhile 1st Amendment question regarding where the line was between “convince” and “coerce” when it came to state officials complaining to Twitter about taking down content. It wasn’t clear where things fell in that case, especially as the government official there admitted they were trying to get Shiva’s tweets taken down. For whatever reason (and there were a variety of procedural oddities in the case), Shiva dropped his case so we never got a direct ruling in that one.

However, a similar case was more recently filed in California (and we mentioned briefly), in which lawyer Rogan O’Handley, a 2020 election truther, lost his Twitter account for violating Twitter’s policies. It came out that his account was one that was flagged by the California Secretary of State’s Office as a “trusted” flagger. So O’Handley sued California’s Secretary of State, Shirley Weber, along with Twitter, and the National Association of Secretaries of State.

The lower court had dismissed the case, and now the 9th Circuit took up the appeal, which… upheld the lower court ruling and tosses out the case. In other words: state officials merely flagging content by itself is not a violation of the 1st Amendment.

As always in these kinds of disputes, the specifics matter. O’Handley made a tweet alleging election fraud in California:

Audit every California ballot

Election fraud is rampant nationwide and we all know California is one of the culprits

Do it to protect the integrity of that state’s elections

The Secretary of State’s office flagged that tweet to Twitter via its Partner Support Portal saying the following:

Hi, We wanted to flag this Twitter post: https://twitter.com/DC_Draino/status/12370 73866578096129 From user @DC_Draino. In this post user claims California of being a culprit of voter fraud, and ignores the fact that we do audit votes. This is a blatant disregard to how our voting process works and creates disinformation and distrust among the general public.

The lower court dismissed on a variety of grounds, noting that Twitter wasn’t a state actor, and that his being banned from Twitter was “not fairly traceable to the Secretary’s actions” among other things. Both were appealed.

The appeals court easily tosses the claims against Twitter noting (of course) that Twitter is not the government:

O’Handley’s claims falter at the first step. Twitter did not exercise a state-created right when it limited access to O’Handley’s posts or suspended his account. Twitter’s right to take those actions when enforcing its content-moderation policy was derived from its user agreement with O’Handley, not from any right conferred by the State. For that reason, O’Handley’s attempt to analogize the authority conferred by California Elections Code § 10.5 to the “procedural scheme” in Lugar is wholly unpersuasive. Id. at 941. Lugar involved a prejudgment attachment system, created by state law, that authorized private parties to sequester disputed property. Id. Section 10.5, by contrast, does not vest Twitter with any power and, under the terms of the user agreement to which O’Handley assented, no conferral of power by the State was necessary for Twitter to take the actions challenged here.

Nor did Twitter enforce a state-imposed rule when it limited access to O’Handley’s posts and suspended his account for “violating the Twitter Rules . . . about election integrity.” As the quoted message that Twitter sent to O’Handley makes clear, the company acted under the terms of its own rules, not under any provision of California law.

That’s pretty straightforward. Also, the 9th Circuit notes that it really doesn’t matter that most of the accounts flagged by the Secretary of State’s office were later pulled down:

That Twitter and Facebook allegedly removed 98 percent of the posts flagged by the OEC does not suggest that the companies ceded control over their content-moderation decisions to the State and thereby became the government’s private enforcers. It merely shows that these private and state actors were generally aligned in their missions to limit the spread of misleading election information. Such alignment does not transform private conduct into state action.

Correlation is not causation in legal form.

And then we start to get into the more meatier question of whether or not there was any coercion which (again) is the key to all of this (this is still part of the analysis regarding whether or not Twitter has been turned into a state actor). The Court recognizes that there is none here.

In this case, O’Handley has not satisfied the nexus test because he has not alleged facts plausibly suggesting that the OEC pressured Twitter into taking any action against him. Even if we accept O’Handley’s allegation that the OEC’s message was a specific request that Twitter remove his November 12th post, Twitter’s compliance with that request was purely optional. With no intimation that Twitter would suffer adverse consequences if it refused the request (or receive benefits if it complied), any decision that Twitter took in response was the result of its own independent judgment in enforcing its Civic Integrity Policy. As was true under the first step of the Lugar framework, the fact that Twitter complied with the vast majority of the OEC’s removal requests is immaterial. Twitter was free to agree with the OEC’s suggestions—or not. And just as Twitter could pay greater attention to what a trusted civil society group had to say, it was equally free to prioritize communications from state officials in its review process without being transformed into a state actor.

The court notes that basic information sharing between governments and private actors does not make the private actors into state actors.

The relationship between Twitter and the OEC more closely resembles the “consultation and information sharing” that we held did not rise to the level of joint action in Mathis, 75 F.3d at 504. In that case, PG&E decided to exclude one of its employees from its plant after conducting an undercover investigation in collaboration with a government narcotics task force. Id. at 501. The suspended employee then sued PG&E for violating his constitutional rights under a joint action theory. Id. We rejected his claim because, even though the task force engaged in consultation and information sharing during the investigation, the task force “wasn’t involved in the decision to exclude Mathis from the plant,” and the plaintiff “brought no evidence PG&E relied on direct or indirect support of state officials in making and carrying out its decision to exclude him.” Id. at 504.

The same is true here. The OEC reported to Twitter that it believed certain posts spread election misinformation, and Twitter then decided whether to take disciplinary action under the terms of its Civic Integrity Policy. O’Handley alleges no facts plausibly suggesting either that the OEC interjected itself into the company’s internal decisions to limit access to his tweets and suspend his account or that the State played any role in drafting Twitter’s Civic Integrity Policy. As in Mathis, this was an arm’s-length relationship, and Twitter never took its hands off the wheel.

As for the claims directly against the Secretary of State, the 9th Circuit does find that O’Handley has standing, but still rejects his claims. The key part, again, is that Twitter gets to make its own decisions and the fact that the Secretary of State’s office flagged the tweet in no way changes that:

Here, as discussed above, the complaint’s allegations do not plausibly support an inference that the OEC coerced Twitter into taking action against O’Handley. The OEC communicated with Twitter through the Partner Support Portal, which Twitter voluntarily created because it valued outside actors’ input. Twitter then decided how to respond to those actors’ recommendations independently, in conformity with the terms of its own content-moderation policy

O’Handley tried to argue (as I’ve seen others as well) that the mere fact that the information sharing was coming from the government creates implicit intimidation factors, but the court, correctly, notes that this is not how any of this works:

O’Handley argues that intimidation is implicit when an agency with regulatory authority requests that a private party take a particular action. This argument is flawed because the OEC’s mandate gives it no enforcement power over Twitter. See Cal. Elec. Code § 10.5. Regardless, the existence or absence of direct regulatory authority is “not necessarily dispositive.” Okwedy, 333 F.3d at 344. Agencies are permitted to communicate in a non-threatening manner with the entities they oversee without creating a constitutional violation. See, e.g., National Rifle Association of America v. Vullo, 49 F.4th 700, 714–19 (2d Cir. 2022).

The court also rejects the idea that this was “retaliation” for O’Handley’s speech, noting that it doesn’t match up with the standards there either:

The retaliation-based theory of liability fails as well. To state a retaliation claim, a plaintiff must show that: “(1) he engaged in constitutionally protected activity; (2) as a result, he was subjected to adverse action by the defendant that would chill a person of ordinary firmness from continuing to engage in the protected activity; and (3) there was a substantial causal relationship between the constitutionally protected activity and the adverse action.” Blair v. Bethel School District, 608 F.3d 540, 543 (9th Cir. 2010) (footnote omitted).

O’Handley’s claim falters on the second prong because he has not alleged that the OEC took any adverse action against him. “The most familiar adverse actions are exercise[s] of governmental power that are regulatory, proscriptive, or compulsory in nature and have the effect of punishing someone for his or her speech.” Id. at 544 (citation and internal quotation marks omitted). Flagging a post that potentially violates a private company’s contentmoderation policy does not fit this mold.Rather, it is a form of government speech that we have refused to construe as “adverse action” because doing so would prevent government officials from exercising their own First Amendment rights. See Mulligan v. Nichols, 835 F.3d 983, 988–89 (9th Cir. 2016). California has a strong interest in expressing its views on the integrity of its electoral process. The fact that the State chose to counteract what it saw as misinformation about the 2020 election by sharing its views directly with Twitter rather than by speaking out in public does not dilute its speech rights or transform permissible government speech into problematic adverse action. See Hammerhead Enterprises, Inc. v. Brezenoff, 707 F.2d 33, 39 (2d Cir. 1983).

There is nothing surprising or out of the ordinary in the result of this case. It matches just fine with a large number of earlier “jawboning” style cases, including ones cited above like Okwedy, Bantam Books, and Backpage. However, since many seem eager to ignore all of this precedent, and because the facts are slightly different regarding social media and trusted flagging programs, it’s nice to see a clean ruling on these points.

Once again, the thing that matters is whether or not there is coercion. There may be cases where these programs or efforts tip over into coercion: and we should be vigilant in watching out for those scenarios. But mere information sharing, absent any form of coercion, cannot be a 1st Amendment violation.

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Comments on “Court Makes It Clear: Government Submissions To Twitter Flagging Program Do Not Violate The 1st Amendment”

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re:

In 3 or 4 hours, when Masnick’s 2005 site posts my reply, we can debate it then. Suffice to say ninth circuit is a joke and many of it’s conclusions are just flabbergasting, but even then the comparison isn’t so great. It only really addresses “please sir, this person, who we definitely don’t hate for political reasons, we think they violated some TOS” but more importantly a state agency with no regulatory power is not a federal agency with a great deal of it and guns, nor a swarm of pressure groups paid hundreds of millions of dollars to well, pressure.

You never did reply to all those detailed, specific tweets when I painstakingly led you to them, btw. Kinda forum blue-balls.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

we can debate it then

What is there to debate with someone who apparently believes a mere suggestion from the government is tantamount to jackbooted censorious thuggery on par with state-sanctioned book burnings? Ain’t no point in getting caught in your mudpit because we all know you’re not going to “debate” in good faith.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

What is there to debate with someone who apparently believes a mere suggestion from the government is tantamount to jackbooted censorious thuggery on par with state-sanctioned book burnings?

What is there to debate with a person who sees snmoking-gun emails “Take care of Bobby fish-nose, I want it done by tomorrow” and then concludes that has NOTHING to do with Bobby getting shot that night?

Or continually conflates a library not carrying a particular book with “book burning” or a “book ban”?!?

So, right back at ya.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

What is there to debate with a person who sees snmoking-gun emails “Take care of Bobby fish-nose, I want it done by tomorrow” and then concludes that has NOTHING to do with Bobby getting shot that night?

When those emails don’t contain direct orders or any kind of coercive language (either threats of punishment or offers of rewards), I don’t see any reason to think of them as the evidence of censorship that you claim they are. Got anything else, son, or are you going to repeat more bullshit than Hyman Rosen when he’s bitching about the existence of trans people?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Do you see how your argument pivoted from “smoking gun emails” to admitting there isn’t a smoking gun, but that’s proof it was coercive because the big bad government mob bosses are devious enough not to get caught saying it out loud?

You aren’t arguing in good faith. You’re just shifting your argument in the moment when someone points out you’re wrong because you can’t accept that you might be wrong.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Do you see how your argument pivoted from “smoking gun emails” to admitting there isn’t a smoking gun, but that’s proof it was coercive because the big bad government mob bosses are devious enough not to get caught saying it out loud?

I do not, no, not even a little bit, and that’s one hell of a construction.

What I am saying is that creatively choosing words so that it does not LOOK like you are not making a demand is a very old game and does not actually mean you are not making the demand. And courts recognize that, generally.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

What I am saying is that creatively choosing words so that it does not LOOK like you are not making a demand is a very old game

Yes, because when I think of ways to coerce people into doing things without making threats, telling them “you don’t have to actually do anything” without any kind of wink-wink-nudge-nudge afterwards is right there at the top of the list~.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Yes, because when I think of ways to coerce people into doing things without making threats, telling them “you don’t have to actually do anything” without any kind of wink-wink-nudge-nudge afterwards is right there at the top of the list~.

It can be, actually, but you keep on saying that if the words were always worded that way and they most definitely were not.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:9

And if you had proof that the government did a double-secret extra-coded mafia-style coercion, you would’ve shown it by now. But you don’t. So you can’t. Too sad, so sad, buh-bye. 👋

I did. And if you knew how to read, you’d be very upset.

And it wasn’t that secret.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I ignored you the first time on purpose because it’s a dumb strawman but I’ll quote myself as I already addressed it.

I think that statement is laughably untrue on it’s face. OF COURSE a 98% success rate means they have ceded over control of their censorship to a state agency.

But this is funny for another reason, because you (and others) routinely cite a 40% rate as evidence that Twitter was not conducting gov censorship by proxy, to which my question is “At what part does it become government censorship, then?” The answer is apparently “never” because even 98% doesn’t qualify. Why bring it up, then? Why pretend the success rate is a rebuttal when according to you (and some activist judges) no rate would ever make it censorship by proxy?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:17

“What can be asserted without evidence, can also be dismissed without evidence.”

Evidence has been presented in abundance, tho.

Also, why do you think that’s a rebuttal to the point that “no punishment and Twitter can refuse to act on any requests that the gov’t may make.” is a pointless comment?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:19

The only things I’ve seen you post are links to a Twitter account that was spoon-fed cherry-picked items in order to push a very specific narrative.

Oh, I see, you just want to dismiss the evidence via ad hominem!

Well unfortunately, the evidence still exists, regardless of whether you want it to.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

The “evidence” doesn’t even support the narrative! Taibbi repeatedly says the files show something nefarious, presents the “receipts,” but the “receipts” don’t show what he says they show. It’s all wordplay and bullshit. It tells me Taibbi (and you) either has poor reading comprehension, or is pulling wool.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Well, we can expand it to the rest of the internet if you’d like.

I get that perspective is not your strong suit but no, if we expand it to “the internet” then no, I would NOT be “pretty much the only person in the comments thinking that it happened.”, not by a long shot.

Holy fuck you’re dumb.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:15

No, but you’d be part of a minority,

Oh? I am? Prove it.

which proves my point:

It does? HOW? Constitutional principals are not decided by majorities, they’re actually meant to thwart them. You have a right to free speech even if a majority think you shouldn’t, you have a right to own a gun even if a majority thinks you shouldn’t, etc.

barely anyone outside the right-wing echo chambers thinks it happened.

Well THAT’s not true.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:15

No, but you’d be part of a minority,

Oh, nevermind, turns out you’re just exactly wrong:

https://apnews.com/article/politics-censorship-78ca50083243a3da2ad09d9bf3545f0b

“NEW YORK and CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Dec. 16, 2022 /PRNewswire/ — Nearly two-thirds of voters believe Twitter shadow-banned users and engaged in political censorship during the 2020 election, according to the December Harvard CAPS / Harris Poll, released today by Stagwell (NASDAQ: STGW). Seventy percent also want new national laws protecting users from corporate censorship. Download key results from the poll – a monthly collaboration between the Center for American Political Studies at Harvard (CAPS) and the Harris Poll and HarrisX – here.”

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Nearly two-thirds of voters believe Twitter shadow-banned users and engaged in political censorship during the 2020 election

Most people don’t even use Twitter and wouldn’t have a fucking clue about what they did or didn’t do. “Two-thirds of voters” are simply not in a position to give an informed answer to the question, but we know a lot won’t hesitate to parrot whatever conspiratorial nonsense Tucker/Hannity/Ingraham spouted last night.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Most people don’t even use Twitter and wouldn’t have a fucking clue about what they did or didn’t do.

Oh, cool, we can dismiss people’s opinions on the basis that they’re uninformed?

Well I guess I’m the only commenter on tech dirt who’s opinion matters, then!

Anyway, that’s not how it works. Pollsters usually weed out people who nothing about the subject at hand.

Regardless, Strawb’s claim was “you’d be part of a minority,” and that has been disproven, regardless of what you think of the opinion in question. (I didn’t ask nor care)

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HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Anyway, that’s not how it works. Pollsters usually weed out people who nothing about the subject at hand.

This part sounds dubious. That would introduce bias unless the pollsters present the findings both with and without the respondents who supposedly aren’t familiar with the subject. The article you linked gives no indication that the researchers weeded out people who weren’t familiar with Twitter.

Regardless, Strawb’s claim was “you’d be part of a minority,” and that has been disproven, regardless of what you think of the opinion in question. (I didn’t ask nor care)

You are correct about that one claim, but the poll you referenced also doesn’t necessarily support an argument that Twitter really did what non-users think it did, and in regards to censorship a court ruling in the opposite direction about a former Twitter user who is a lawyer is evidence that Twitter and the government didn’t violate the First Amendment regardless of how the poll respondents define censorship.

See page 44 and onward of the key results for the poll questions. From what I could tell the poll didn’t define “censorship”, so it’s unclear whether voters understand that censorship with respect to attempts to remove speech requires coercion or intimidation.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:19

The article you linked gives no indication that the researchers weeded out people who weren’t familiar with Twitter.

I honestly don’t give a fuck, not every detail is going to be immediately presented via a short-form link. I know such is common, Harvard-Harris poll is pretty well respected, so I suspect they do, I’m sure they list their methodology somewhere, you’re free to investigate it. If you care about it, look it up, I don’t.

No, I don’t have to provide rigorous proof of every little thing I say, even off-handedly, particularly via one, sole link. This is literally just looking for things to contest. Some retard is going to pipe in with “No evidence has been offered, thus..” I don’t fucking care. It’s not central to my argument, it’s just dumb, frankly meaningless objection sent out by JMT that happens to be wrong (it will always be meaningless) because that is a thing that is checked for. If you care go and find out. Tell me what you find, I will be at least half interested.

You are correct about that one claim,

Yes, thank you, literally all I care about here.

but the poll you referenced also doesn’t necessarily support an argument that Twitter really did what non-users think it did

Oh, opinion polls are not findings of fact? Gee, go figure.

regards to censorship a court ruling in the opposite direction about a former Twitter user who is a lawyer is evidence that Twitter and the government didn’t violate the First Amendment regardless of how the poll respondents define censorship.

OK, so that’s a word salad. Be more clear with your grammar.

From what I could tell the poll didn’t define “censorship”,

I should hope not, that would be essentially a leading question.

it’s unclear whether voters understand that censorship with respect to attempts to remove speech requires coercion or intimidation.

Should they “understand” that? Cuz that’s not what the definition is, at all.

Essentially all I’m reading from this you’re disappointed the poll isn’t biased in the ways you prefer and holy fuck do I not care about that.

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DJ (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Matt seems like the kind of guy, who when asked to move out of the way so someone could pass, will start screaming that you are violating their personal space.

Then he will start to wonder when America got so fascist that a man can’t stand in the doorway of a public space without being harassed.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Then he will start to wonder when America got so fascist that a man can’t stand in the doorway of a public space without being harassed.

You get that my whole concern is that all this is fascist af, right?

The CCP will ALSO kick you off social media for daring to suggest their elections are rigged. Of course, they are. Or for that suggesting welding people into apartment blocks might be a bad way to deal with a pandemic. Weibo is a “private” company. I’m sure the CCP’s requests to them are very polite.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The CCP will ALSO kick you off social media for daring to suggest their elections are rigged. Of course, they are.

As opposed to the Republican party telling us our elections are rigged, despite no evidence to the contrary.

Or for that suggesting welding people into apartment blocks might be a bad way to deal with a pandemic.

Yeah, they should’ve winged it like we did. Maybe then they would’ve had more deaths than us.

Weibo is a “private” company. I’m sure the CCP’s requests to them are very polite.

Probably not. But then again, that’s probably why we beat them (massively!) in covid deaths.

USA! USA! Gotta love freedumb! Even if it’s freedumb to die for being a dumbass!

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Probably not. But then again, that’s probably why we beat them (massively!) in covid deaths.

You could only possibly think that if you believed China’s numbers, which are very obviously fake. (of course they will persecute you for saying that) Are you a CCP apologist? It sure sounds like you are, actually.

The CCP will ALSO kick you off social media for daring to suggest their elections are rigged. Of course, they are.

As opposed to the Republican party telling us our elections are rigged,

Yes, which Twitter will kick off for, as in this case.

But not Stacey Abrams, who essentially said the exact same thing.

I think you’ve made my point for me.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:7

So you’re agreeing that our elections are rigged?

No, actually (but yes), my point is that the argument is exactly mirrored.

Weibo will ban you for questioning Chinese elections.

Twitter will ban you for questioning US elections. (but please note that Stacey Abrams was not)

What is the difference there? Anything? You might answer “Chinese elections are fraudulent and US elections are not”. OK….if there was an actual problem with US elections, how would you know? Who would be allowed to tell you?

That will get you tarred and feathered by the extreme left on this website.

Oh, that’s adorable. I’m familiar with the hatred and intolerance by leftists on this site. The more they howl, the more I know I’m right.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Twitter will ban you for questioning US elections.

The idiots who took it so far as to get banned weren’t “questioning elections”, they were spreading misinformation and lies.

Weibo will ban you for questioning Chinese elections.

Twitter will ban you for questioning US elections. (but please note that Stacey Abrams was not)

What is the difference there?

The fact that China has laws that compel companies to heavily censor whatever the government doesn’t like, as well as government employees to directly monitor and take down content.

The US does not.

if there was an actual problem with US elections, how would you know? Who would be allowed to tell you?

Everyone who isn’t a government employee because the US isn’t a fascist state, you gigantic windbag.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:9

they were spreading misinformation and lies.

According to who? The government?

Again, for maybe the third time, why wasn’t Stacey Abrams banned? She said all the same things.

The fact that China has laws that compel companies to heavily censor whatever the government doesn’t like, as well as government employees to directly monitor and take down content.

I’m actually not sure what the Chinese laws say on that but I also know it doesn’t matter because they aren’t followed. Both China and Russia have free speech guarantees, in fact.

Everyone who isn’t a government employee

This just tells me you know nothing about elections, ballot counting, chain of custody, voter registration, verification, etc.

the US isn’t a fascist state

It isn’t? The Biden Administration tried to inject everyone against their will a year or so back. It told landlords they no longer controlled their own property, TWICE, once AFTER SCOUTUS told them they couldn’t do it.

So if it’s not fascist it’s not for lack of trying.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

they were spreading misinformation and lies.

According to who? The government?

And poll watchers. And the people providing the machines. And Republican officials whose job was to check that. And the Republican then-Attorney General Bill Barr. And election experts across the political spectrum.

Again, for maybe the third time, why wasn’t Stacey Abrams banned? She said all the same things.

Where did Stacey Abrams say that votes were altered? Or that the voting machines or vote-counting process was rigged? Or that anything that actually violated the law happened? As far as I’m aware, Stacey Abrams only said that the election was rigged solely to the extent that potential voters were prevented from voting, or that votes were removed unfairly but fully in accordance with state law.

Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary and I will revise my statement (I don’t feel that strongly about her to begin with), but as it stands, there are a lot of differences.

Oh, and in the case of Stacey Abrams, there weren’t a bunch of court cases on the issue that found that she was wrong. That’s kinda important, too.

I’m actually not sure what the Chinese laws say on that but I also know it doesn’t matter because they aren’t followed.

The laws that compel censorship or that allow government employees to monitor and take down content aren’t followed? I’m pretty sure that they are followed about as much as any other totalitarian law.

Both China and Russia have free speech guarantees, in fact.

Which have never been enforced. At all.

Everyone who isn’t a government employee

This just tells me you know nothing about elections, ballot counting, chain of custody, voter registration, verification, etc.

Uh, yeah. It’s quite transparent. Non-government employees can volunteer to become poll watchers to observe quite a lot of these processes. And FOIA requests can be used to learn a fair amount of everything else. Considering the privacy issues at play, it’s probably about as open as it can possibly be.

the US isn’t a fascist state

It isn’t? The Biden Administration tried to inject everyone against their will a year or so back.

No, it didn’t. It mandated vaccines for government employees, and advised companies to do the same for their employees. That isn’t forcing everyone to get a vaccine.

But let’s say you’re right about that. That still wouldn’t be fascism. Vaccine mandates aren’t fascism. They’re also well-supported under U.S. law.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Mr. Bari Wiess of the NYpost, you’re not really entitled to waste my time anymore, so I’m just skimming, but a few things leapt out at me:

Where did Stacey Abrams say that votes were altered?

You seem to want to really want to argue particulars, presumably to cherry pick and make your side look more virtuous, and I just don’t give a fuck about your opinion on any of it. But Abrams DID claim continuously to have actually won the election and indeed never conceded. That is straight forwardly “Election Denial” open and shut. A republican would have been banned (also would have been pestered continuously to concede but that’s a separate matter)

Uh, yeah. It’s quite transparent

Except when it’s not and a giant pile of ballots is “discovered”, or they block windows with cardboard, and if you point that out you’re a “conspiracy theorist” for some reason…. (which is silly, conspiracies happen all the time)

It mandated vaccines for government employees, and advised companies to do the same for their employees.

Incorrect. They tried to force anyone working at a company of 100 or more employees to get vaccinated. No idea why they stopped there, the same principal (which is made up) could allow them to make anyone working anywhere get vaccinated. It was thrown out of course, as they knew it would, and I’d say that doing so when you knew the court would reject it but essentially just trying to force it through anyway is an impeachable offense, double so for eviction moratoriums.

[Vaccine mandates] are also well-supported under U.S. law.

They are not. There is precisely ONE precedent, from 1905, I believe (without googling). Against a disease literally several hundred times as deadly as covid. And every precedent from 120 years ago should be kept forever, totally unassailable, right?

Several decades before fascism was invented, but the nazis would have fucking loved the concept. Have a special mRNA for the Jews, amiright?

Fascistic af.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Ain’t no point in getting caught in your mudpit because we all know you’re not going to “debate” in good faith.

“Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.”

― George Bernard Shaw

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Saying “Historical figure probably didn’t say that” is super dumb. Nearly everything before the age of recording is apocryphal. Everything not written is dependent on witnesses, who are unreliable, and everything is subject to the telephone game of time. Even written text more than a couple centuries old has almost certainly been transcribed a couple times. How many original Roman texts do we have? Not a lot. Nearly all of it was rewritten once in the middle ages, at least. Did they do that accurately? Who knows.

Anyway, quotes attributed to historical figures are essentially parables….supposedly smart things a supposedly smart person said that makes a certain point we agree with.

MY favorite (hated) is the Einstein quote (which he absolutely did say, weirdly I found a site claiming he didn’t) “Insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result” This is quoted by sophomoric asshats all the time.

  1. He said it in contesting quantum theory, part of the whole “god does not play dice with the universe” argument. I actually subscribe to vaious hidden variable/pilot wave theories but fundamentally he was wrong. Quantum weirdness exists, Einstein was disproven here.
  2. Very obviously, realistically, in real life situations, you will do the same thing and get a different result all the fucking time actually.

Real quote, by a smart guy, but he was just wrong (on several different levels) in this case. Arguably his most famous quote after MC=E^2.

I say this as a contrast because people attribute all sorts of very smart, true things to people who may or may not have said them and whether they did or not, besides being harder to verify the farther back you go (markedly harder earlier than the 20th century) really isn’t that important.

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

MY favorite (hated) is the Einstein quote (which he absolutely did say, weirdly I found a site claiming he didn’t) “Insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result”

Feel free to cite your source.

Arguably his most famous quote after MC=E^2.

I can’t say I’d trust quote knowledge by someone who can’t even get E = mc2 right.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: 'It's only a valid ruling if it agrees with us!'

You’d think so but that assumes they’d see any legal judgement that went against them as legitimate rather than dismissing it as an illegitimate ruling by a woke liberal judge since clearly personal bias is the only reason a judge would rule against them/their arguments.

anon says:

Re: You believe that?

How many of the Twitter files’ reports of government emails were from the “Twitter Flagging Program”? Zero? Considering that the Twitter Flagging Program is a ‘click here to flag’ similar to what’s used on many sites, including this one, and not the inboxes of the Twitter employees; I’d say that Mike put just a little too much spin into this article.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Willing Collaborators

The problem is not that the government is coercing private actors to violate the free speech rights of its citizens. The problem is that these private actors are willing collaborators with the silencing the government wants to achieve, and so the government outsources what would be a 1st Amendment violation if it carried out the silencing itself to these private actors who are legally allowed to do it.

The government cannot directly silence vaccine skeptics. But if it goes to Twitter and Facebook and says that they should (not must, just should) silence those skeptics on their platforms, and they do, then those skeptics have been silenced on those platforms just as surely as if the government had issued the orders itself.

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint, no matter how wrong they think those viewpoints are, and no matter who is asking them to do the silencing.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

The problem is that these private actors are willing collaborators with the silencing the government wants to achieve

Why, it’s almost as if those platforms want to stay relevant and making sure they’re not full of mis- and disinformation about elections so people see those platforms as trustworthy sources of factual information is one way of staying relevant. Imagine that~.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

making sure they’re not full of mis- and disinformation

No one should be trying to determine and label what is “misnformation”. For MANY reasons of long standing principal but also because they have proved hilariously bad at that. If you want to refute someone, refute them. It’s part of democracy. Removing things because you don’t think they’re true is not.

trustworthy sources of factual information is one way of staying relevant.

Oh, so they’re sources of information now? Sources, in fact, because they removed (edited) the info they disagreed with and only or predominantly left that which they disagreed with?

Interesting, re: CDA 230……..

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

No one should be trying to determine and label what is “misnformation”.

If Twitter wants to make that declaration, that’s on Twitter. Nobody has to (or should) believe their labeling of speech is The Unerring Word of God.

Removing things because you don’t think they’re true is not.

Sorry, I’m pretty sure I missed this bit of news, but could you tell me exactly when Twitter legally became a government institution that must host any and all speech?

so they’re sources of information now?

Accounts on Twitter can be considered sources of information, yes. But to paraphrase 4chan’s long-time /b/ disclaimer: Only a fool would take anything posted there as objective fact without checking other sources first. Much like Wikipedia can be a good starting point for finding information, Twitter can be much the same⁠—but also like Wikipedia, Twitter shouldn’t ever be considered the be-all, end-all, Word of God source for any information.

Sources, in fact, because they removed (edited) the info they disagreed with and only or predominantly left that which they disagreed with?

No, sources because accounts on Twitter can be used to relay information from a given user/source to many other people.

Interesting, re: CDA 230

Not really. 230 protects Twitter for its moderation decisions in re: third-party speech. It can remove any speech it deems “false” or “in violation of the TOS” without risking a lawsuit over that decision. Prove it can’t.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Not really. 230 protects Twitter for its moderation decisions in re: third-party speech.

You just said they were the source of the information, not the accounts. And if they heavy edit so that only one type of info is available on a subject, they are!

Prove it can’t.

I did, Ninth circuit (ironic) 2009

If Twitter wants to make that declaration, that’s on Twitter. Nobody has to (or should) believe their labeling of speech is The Unerring Word of God.

They don’t just label it, they delete it. Nice strawman there.

And you seem awfully blasé about the prospect of someone blocking entire categories of opinion.

What if Twitter decided it would suffer no gay content? That all marriage was between a man and a woman and saying anything else was a violation of TOS?

By the rules you laid out, that would not only be legal, but just fine and nothing to worry about, right? RIGHT!?!

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

🤣 lmao you ain’t even worth the bother now, go whine about mean ol’ Twitter somewhere else lmao 🤣

You’re saying that cuz you can’t address the point. Just admit that would think all the opposite things if Twitter had been censoring opinions you hold dear.

I am attempting to accept my victory with class.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Well, very few decent people would go so far as to harass people over either mistakes or differing opinions.

Brownshirts, on the other hand, do. And I have read comments about similar folk holding opinions similar to you actually saying they want to murder the author and comment section for having differing opinions.

Such things are similar to what even the local flavor of brownshirts do and want. Just because YOU hide it a little better than most doesn’t change your ideology.

After all, you already admitted that your entire goal here is to harass Mike into eitehr shutting down the site or covering topics that DON’T criticize your side. And there’s Jan 6. Which you deny was a violent thing.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

No one should be trying to determine and label what is “misnformation”.

You’re advocating for fraud and voter disenfranchisement here.

For MANY reasons of long standing principal but also because they have proved hilariously bad at that. If you want to refute someone, refute them. It’s part of democracy.

Fraud and voter disenfranchisement aren’t permitted speech under the 1st Amendment. And the damage done by them cannot be refuted with more speech.

Removing things because you don’t think they’re true is not.

Slippery weasel words. You pretend it’s just a difference of opinion rather than verifiable lies.

Oh, so they’re sources of information now? Sources, in fact, because they removed (edited) the info they disagreed with and only or predominantly left that which they disagreed with?

Interesting, re: CDA 230……..

You’re confusing the platform with the people who run the platform. Twitter can be a source of information that is provided by users without Twitter employees being the source of that information. It’s weird this has to be explained to you.

Interesting re: people aren’t internet platforms…

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

You’re advocating for fraud and voter disenfranchisement here.

How? At what other point in history has a private org deemed itself the arbiter of truth and that it will shut you up for disagreeing with it’s opinion of what is true?

What if they’re wrong? (they’re wrong a lot)

What if the “truth” is unevenly applied? No one kicked Stacey Abrams off of Twitter for alleging she actually won the GA governor race. She said that for 4 years.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The Decider of All Facts and The Only Platform on This God Damned Internet.

Between them and FB (which does a lot of the same things) it’s legitimately is the majority of the conversation. Certainly for US citizens debating politics and public interest matters.

I think Twitter trying to be The Decider of All Facts and then silencing dissent is Very Very Bad, actually. The 1A doesn’t apply to Twitter (on it’s own) but the principles for why it exists are exactly the same for why it’s a bad thing. Once you give someone the power to shut someone up based upon the pretext of it being “Hate speech” or “disinformation” that power WILL be abused, and it has been.

Sure, Twitter isn’t the government and they can’t shoot you. But between them and FB they can effectively shut down your ability to communicate your ideas. So it’s really bad when the government is involed (and illegal) but it’s pretty fucking bad without that, also.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Twitter trying to be The Decider of All Facts

…is irrelevant unless you genuinely believe (or can prove!) Twitter either is that thing or sincerely wants to become that thing.

Twitter is not the be-all, end-all, all-or-nothing space for conversation on the Internet. Neither is Facebook. Same goes for Tumblr, Truth Social, 4chan, YouTube, Masto instances, or any other online communication service. If Twitter declares anything to be “false”, that declaration only really matters on Twitter.

If your whole argument is going to base itself around you believing Twitter is (or is trying to be) The Unerring Voice of God as if everyone else believes that, your argument isn’t worth taking seriously.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I think Twitter trying to be The Decider of All Facts and then silencing dissent is Very Very Bad, actually.

It certainly would be if that were even remotely true. You are such a damn drama queen.

Once you give someone the power to shut someone up based upon the pretext of it being “Hate speech” or “disinformation” that power WILL be abused, and it has been.

I can guarantee you that the thousands and thousands of people all around the world who have been the target of that hate speech would strongly disagree with you characterizing the moderation of hate speech as an abuse of power. And there are many more empathetic people who aren’t the target of hate speech who don’t want those people to experience that hate too. Basically only assholes who have never experienced being the target of hate speech would view its moderation as abuse. And we know what group you’re in.

Sure, Twitter isn’t the government and they can’t shoot you. But between them and FB they can effectively shut down your ability to communicate your ideas.

If you want to communicate those ideas there are numerous other options available to you where you’ll actually be welcome.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

JMT says a bunch of irrelevant shit that doesn’t matter

Oh this leapt out at me:

I can guarantee you that the thousands and thousands of people all around the world who have been the target of that hate speech

See that’s funny, cuz there are millions and millions of people who have been severely punished, often killed by their governments for supposed “misinformation”. CCP fucking loves to get people for “misinformation”.

Not “hate speech”, mind you, that’s a US/Western obsession that goes away pretty quickly when you have real shit to worry about.

I take that back. CCP I betcha has definitely put some Uyghurs in a concentration camp for “hate speech”. “oh, no Han Chinese raped my wife at government orders! ” See? Hate Speech.

If you want to communicate those ideas there are numerous other options available to you where you’ll actually be welcome.

This is a little like saying George Floyd could clearly still breathe, because he could still talk. Mostly shit like “help, I can’t breathe!” But he could breathe, obviously. And then he died. Of not breathing.

Your comment was so dramatically uninformed, vapid, lacking perspective, you should legitimately feel ashamed for uttering it.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:8

So you’re comparing the horrific actions of the Chinese government to Twitter’s moderation policies

Yes, absolutely. They’re different in degree, not in kind.

And this from the guy who’ll pop a valve if someone gets called a Nazi.

Yes. Because 1) that is an ad hominem the Left now things entitled to use at any time no actual justification. 2) It is almost exclusively used by those who support totalitarian policies. 3) It’s ironically fascistic in itself as it is used “other”, to make violence against an out-group OK, i.e. “punch nazis”. Remarkably convenient when “nazi” just means “people I disagree with”. And then “punch” becomes “line up against that wall”. You probably think I’m being hyperbolic, except this is exactly the progression that has played out the last two centuries, basically ever since the French Revolution.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Yes, and?

Exactly. They are free to say whatever they want wherever they want, just not on Twitter.

Unless you are saying that Twitter has somehow become the sole means of communicating online and offline… is that what you are trying to say?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Exactly. They are free to say whatever they want wherever they want, just not on Twitter.

Unless you are saying that Twitter has somehow become the sole means of communicating online and offline… is that what you are trying to say?

But that’s a useless thing to say. The NYT never decided what other people could say elsewhere, either.

So I’m back to “Yes, and?”

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Samuel Abram (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The NYT never decided what other people could say elsewhere, either.

So if the moderator at the NYT comments section thinks you’re a troll and says you can’t comment there, you can still post on your blog, on twitter, on Mastodon instances, basically everywhere that’s not the NYT comments section.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

How?

Because some of the tweets and accounts that got flagged were disseminating actual falsehoods that were disenfranchising voters with misinformation. You’re saying that someone else being able to say “nope, that’s a lie” magically negates the confusion it caused voters who may have not gotten to vote because of it.

And it’s absurd that you’re arguing for a position but you don’t actually know what the tweets/accounts were saying that you’re defending.

At what other point in history has a private org deemed itself the arbiter of truth and that it will shut you up for disagreeing with it’s opinion of what is true?

A private organization doesn’t need to deem itself the arbiter of truth in order to retain the 1st Amendment right to not host your speech. It could decide it doesn’t like the way you style your hair. It’s under no obligation to serve you.

But to answer your question, though it’s a red herring, plenty of private organizations have historically deemed themselves arbiters of truth- newspapers being a significant example. And newspapers aren’t obligated to post your letter to the editor.

What if they’re wrong? (they’re wrong a lot)

According to you, you get to refute them with more speech. Host your own social media platform. Spin up a Mastodon instance. Deem yourself arbiter of truth on your own platform. Welcome to the nature of free speech.

What if the “truth” is unevenly applied? No one kicked Stacey Abrams off of Twitter for alleging she actually won the GA governor race. She said that for 4 years.

That’s action, not truth. You’re conflating too different things. Did Abrams’ claims cause an insurrection attempt or disenfranchise voters? But again, that’s still within the rights of the owners of the platform to decide. Truth Social definitely utilizes the same right to ban left wing voices on its platform.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint. A large generic speech platform should act as a disinterested host for its users, not as an arbiter of what is true and what is acceptable.

Naturally woke ideologues welcome censorship as long as it’s silencing opinions they hate, because wokeness is an enemy of freedom.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value,

Having foundational values isn’t a suicide pact. You don’t err on the side of a value so much that it destroys you.

large generic speech platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint.

Fraud and voter disenfranchisement aren’t a viewpoint based opinion. And that foundational value of free speech you mentioned includes private platforms retaining their rights to free speech. If you want a forum free from influence, you have the freedom to self-publish. You don’t have to free to force your speech on others, including “large generic speech platforms.”

A large generic speech platform should act as a disinterested host for its users, not as an arbiter of what is true and what is acceptable.

You’re free to purchase Twitter for several billion and make it a free speech utopia full of racism and spam and child pornography- because that’s what shows up when you don’t regulate the contents of a “speech platform.”

Naturally woke

Define “naturally woke.”

ideologues welcome censorship as long as it’s silencing opinions they hate, because wokeness is an enemy of freedom.

I’m awfully sorry you got banned for using the n-word. It’s definitely the fault of “naturally woke ideologues.”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Given that woke gender ideologues believe that children should be mutilated instead of learning to live comfortably in the only bodies they will ever have, and that schools should hide the mental illnesses of children from their parents so that children will never receive that treatment to learn to live in their bodies, woke ideologues are hardly the ones to talk about society making suicide pacts.

Which is to say, people have different opinions, one person’s suicide pact is another’s shining truth, and in a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic sketch platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

large generic [speech] platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint

Yes or no, Hyman: Do you believe the government should have the legal right to compel any privately owned interactive web service into hosting legally protected speech that the owners/operators of said service don’t want to host?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Of course not. Woke ideologues want to construe encouragement as force so that they can argue in favor of the censorship they want while hiding behind the legalism of the 1st Amendment. Large generic speech platforms that silence opinions based on viewpoint should be encouraged, shamed, or bought, but not forced, to get them to behave properly.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Woke ideologues want to construe encouragement as force so that they can argue in favor of the censorship they want while hiding behind the legalism of the 1st Amendment.

Every accusation, a confession. I mean, who is it that’s claiming that the “Twitter Files” absolutely prove government-coerced censorship on Twitter when they don’t?

Large generic speech platforms that silence opinions based on viewpoint should be encouraged, shamed, or bought, but not forced, to get them to behave properly.

When bitching about them and buying them out doesn’t work, what option do you think is left?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Beats me. I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned the Twitter Files.

Mockery is always good, such as when the holders of Dahl’s rights were shamed into continuing to publish unbowdlerized versions of his books. The important thing is to never let up, so that the woke ideologues can never rest either. It’s not unlike the forced-birthers, who worked for decades to bring down Roe v. Wade.

Remember, because woke ideology is false and evil, there will be ongoing examples that discredit it, and eventually some will be severe enough to finally drive it out of society, the way recovered memory therapy was destroyed by the McMartin case.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 This quote gets so much use thanks to that dogwhistle...

Conservative: I have been censored for my conservative views
Me: Holy shit! You were censored for wanting lower taxes?
Con: LOL no…no not those views
Me: So…deregulation?
Con: Haha no not those views either
Me: Which views, exactly?
Con: Oh, you know the ones

(All credit to Twitter user @ndrew_lawrence.)

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

People can only ever be the sex of their bodies.

Gender and sex are the same thing.

Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of the population.

Illegal aliens should be deported.

Arrested people with appropriate criminal records should be kept in jail.

Crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be removed from the streets.

Convicted murderers (and other criminals too) should be swiftly executed.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

People can only ever be the sex of their bodies.

Undisputed. Evidence that this is censored?.

Gender and sex are the same thing.

Arguable, depending on how you define them. Evidence that this is censored?

Black people commit crimes in numbers disproportionately large to their share of the population.

Evidence that this is censored and, if so, that it is true?

Illegal aliens should be deported.

Evidence that this is censored?

Arrested people with appropriate criminal records should be kept in jail.

Not in dispute. Evidence that this is censored?

Crazed, drug-addled, stinking, possibly dangerous bums should be removed from the streets.

No one disagrees with this; the disagreement is in tone and how to accomplish this. Evidence that this is censored?

Convicted murderers (and other criminals too) should be swiftly executed.

Heavily debated. Heck, I have seen this on Twitter. Evidence that this is censored?

Seriously, this is at least the third time you’ve posted this list, and each time I point all this out to you. This is getting old.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I am not responsible for relieving your boredom.

It’s posting views like this that have led Masnick to send all of my signed-in posts to moderation, so there’s that. In any case, the post to which I was responding implies that the person claiming censorship is at a loss to describe the views that might get one censored by woke ideologues. When that is posted, I will respond with this list of views to demonstrate just what it is that woke ideologues hate, and that there is no shame in posting the truth.

There is always the censored post by The Babylon Bee awarding its Man of the Year award to Dr. Rachel Levine as a fine example.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

censored post by The Babylon Bee

The article was never censored. It was always available at the Babylon Bee’s website.

Get back to me when Twitter has 100% control of all speech online and offline, then we can have a discussion about censorship.

But Twitter telling Babylon Bee to GTFO is no more censorship than the bouncer at a dance club who has to kick out the assholes like you because you keep trying to start a fight.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I am not responsible for relieving your boredom.

I never said you were. You are causing me boredom that I didn’t have before by not having any good or even new arguments.

It’s posting views like this that have led Masnick to send all of my signed-in posts to moderation, so there’s that.

You’ve posted views not listed. These were not the views you were moderated for per se; you went beyond that. Also, we’re talking about Twitter, not Techdirt.

In any case, the post to which I was responding implies that the person claiming censorship is at a loss to describe the views that might get one censored by woke ideologues.

To which I responded by asking you to demonstrate that these views are, in fact, moderated against. I also pointed out that some of them aren’t even disputed even by “woke ideologues”, so they most certainly aren’t views “censored by woke ideologues”.

I am well aware of the context, which is why I mainly asked for evidence and pointed out where there was no dispute, rather than disputing the views themselves.

When that is posted, I will respond with this list of views to demonstrate just what it is that woke ideologues hate, […]

Except the list doesn’t demonstrate that. Several of them aren’t even in dispute.

Moreover, this isn’t just that they hate it but that it is also being “censored”. Otherwise, the list is irrelevant. Again, where is your evidence that this is censored?

There is always the censored post by The Babylon Bee awarding its Man of the Year award to Dr. Rachel Levine as a fine example.

Which doesn’t fit even one of the views you mentioned. Even if it is an example of “woke ideologues” “censoring” based on viewpoint (which I dispute), it doesn’t validate your list. The issues with that post are deadnaming, calling a transwoman a man (which isn’t simply stating that gender and sex are the same even if it is a reasonable implication), and (arguably) sexism (regarding appearance vs sex). None of those are on your list.

I’m saying come up with a better list, or prove each of the elements on the list should be there.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The essence of sea-lioning is wasting the time of the opponent by constantly demanding “evidence” which will be immediately dismissed when offered.

The essence of sealioning is demanding evidence and “just asking questions” in bad faith. Around here, most of us will give credible evidence a look-see to see if it says what someone claims it says. If it doesn’t, we dismiss it. If the evidence isn’t credible, we dismiss it. If the evidence is credible and it says what it’s claimed to have said, we accept it⁠—and we’ll put it into context if necessary.

Presenting good evidence isn’t that hard. That a lot of the trolls here can’t do it is their problem.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The essence of sea-lioning is wasting the time of the opponent by constantly demanding “evidence” which will be immediately dismissed when offered.

Yes. However, I didn’t dismiss the evidence outright. I pointed out that it has nothing to do with your claims. Moreover, it requires that I feign ignorance of the topic at hand, which I don’t. I don’t profess to be an expert, but I’m not a newcomer either.

Also, it requires you to demonstrate intent, which you haven’t. Otherwise, any honest request for evidence would be sealioning. (And if you think that evidence shouldn’t be requested at all, all I can say is that that isn’t how it works here.)

Additionally, sealioning doesn’t really apply when you repeat the same thing over and over again and get the same request for evidence. The repetition on my part is because of your repetition, similar to how your repetition is because of others’ repetition. If you can do it, so can I.

Finally, I said prove it or change your list to better conform to your evidence. I even gave you a couple of things you could include instead based on your example. That’s not sealioning. I am trying to help you improve your argument!

Another example, by the way, is Slack deplatforming LibsOfTikTok.

Okay, unlike the Babylon Bee story, I am genuinely unfamiliar with this one. Heck, I’m unfamiliar with Slack as a platform outside of use within businesses as a messenger app. I can’t really comment on that one without more information.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

You made the claim; you have the burden of proof here. If you aren’t going to even explain which of the listed items are allegedly demonstrated by the stated example, I’m under no obligation to make your arguments for you.

That aside, my point in mentioning that was to state that I couldn’t yet comment on it because I hadn’t yet become familiar with it yet. That could change. I could Google it (though it would be nice to know which claims, specifically, you allege that they made that led to their “censorship”). You could give an overview of the subject or link to a good source for it (which is what the normal thing to do would be rather than complain that I won’t research your claim for you). I never specified either way.

I was intending on researching it at some point. I just didn’t feel like doing so at that time (especially since I later had to do something), but I could easily respond to your other points with little time or effort, so I responded to those that I could at that time while noting that I couldn’t yet address that particular example. I also wanted to give you the opportunity to modify your list or give citations first so I don’t waste my time researching something that turns out unnecessary.

So, before I google it myself, I will ask one last time: Do you want to stick with this specific list of allegedly censored topics and this specific example? And would you like to point out a specific source or specify which claims in the list you believe were censored in this example?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Here’s another one:

https://thedcline.org/2023/03/16/dc-recently-banned-discrimination-against-homeless-people-enforcing-that-brings-a-lot-of-challenges/

It’s now literally against the law in Washington D.C. to kick out crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums from your place of business. It’s now literally against the law for a landlord to check tenants for sealed eviction records.

And here is what happens when you let crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums set up camp on the streets of your city:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/19/us/phoenix-businesses-homelessness.html

And it’s the fault of idiotic liberals (pre-wokeness, but of the same philosophy):
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-southern-california-wins-historic-victory-homeless-rights-case

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

It’s now literally against the law in Washington D.C. to kick out crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums from your place of business.

  1. It says nothing about “crazed, stinking, drug-addled bums” or “possibly dangerous bums”. It just says that discrimination based solely on whether someone is homeless is banned. If you have some other reason for saying that they are disruptive or dangerous, that’s still allowed.
  2. You’re supposed to be presenting examples of alleged censorship based on certain viewpoints on certain platforms. This doesn’t even come close to that.

It’s now literally against the law for a landlord to check tenants for sealed eviction records.

Again, how is that censorship? Particularly on social media platforms, which is the topic of discussion. (It also has nothing to do with any of the topics on your list.)

And here is what happens when you let crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums set up camp on the streets of your city: […]

Yeah, that’s also irrelevant.

And it’s the fault of idiotic liberals (pre-wokeness, but of the same philosophy): […]

Okay, maybe I didn’t make myself clear.

This is about your claims that certain viewpoints are being censored against on online platforms. This is not about the validity of your political beliefs. None of this is relevant to the claims at issue.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Here are a few examples. Please take the time to dismiss each one as singular or irrelevant so that you can go on believing that woke ideologues don’t try to silence and cancel and censor anyone who dares dissent against their lies. Ask for a few more examples to keep me busy, and don’t worry, you can dismiss those too.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/us/steven-pinker-harvard.html

The letter against him … points to his 2015 tweet … which suggested that the high number of police shootings of Black people may not have been caused by racial bias of individual police officers, but rather by the larger structural and economic realities that result in the police having disproportionately high numbers of encounters with Black residents.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/09/21/us/ice-judge-new-york-city/index.html

A New York judge earlier this month recommended a landlord pay $17,000 in fines for threatening to call immigration authorities on an undocumented tenant.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jul/06/maya-forstater-was-discriminated-against-over-gender-critical-beliefs-tribunal-rules

A researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex has won her claim that she was unfairly discriminated against because of her gender-critical beliefs.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Here are a few examples. Please take the time to dismiss each one as singular or irrelevant […]

I wouldn’t do that if you gave examples that actually supported your claims. Also, for the purposes of this subject, except where you are discussing moderation by a platform or something like that, I’m forgoing objecting based on failure to demonstrate a trend rather than an isolated instance.

[…] so that you can go on believing that woke ideologues don’t try to silence and cancel and censor anyone who dares dissent against their lies.

I believe I’ve already told you this, but I don’t believe that to be the case. Woke ideologues absolutely do try to silence, cancel, and/or censor any dissent (perceived or actual). That’s not the issue here.

The problems here are mainly twofold:

  1. You often pick examples that don’t even show that much. That is, they are unrelated to transgender people or woke ideologues or are unrelated to attempts to silence people.
  2. When you do present evidence of that, it’s typically unrelated to the topic at hand (in this case, your list of topics alleged censored against on social media).

Again, pick a better list of topics or better examples, and there would be no problem here.

The letter against him … points to his 2015 tweet … which suggested that the high number of police shootings of Black people may not have been caused by racial bias of individual police officers, but rather by the larger structural and economic realities that result in the police having disproportionately high numbers of encounters with Black residents.

Okay, and? That wasn’t on your list of censored topics. The closest one is about the statistic of black crime, but the issue people were having with that Tweet wasn’t the inclusion of that statistic but the proposed explanation for it. I can agree that this is woke ideologues attempting to silence dissent (based on what I can read), but it doesn’t support your list.

A New York judge earlier this month recommended a landlord pay $17,000 in fines for threatening to call immigration authorities on an undocumented tenant.

I can’t even say this has anything to do with woke ideology. This seems more like an issue you have with the law being enforced against someone who appears to have been attempting to extort and harass a tenant. Had the landlord just called ICE instead of repeatedly threatening to do so, there likely would not have been a problem.

It also has nothing to do with social media, which was the subject at issue. Otherwise, I would’ve just let it slide.

A researcher who lost her job at a thinktank after tweeting that transgender women could not change their biological sex has won her claim that she was unfairly discriminated against because of her gender-critical beliefs.

First, despite what the first paragraph says, reading further, it would appear that it was based on a heck of a lot more than that. She also compared transgender people to Rachel Dolezal, which is a lot worse, and there were a number of other tweets that were objected to. It seems plausible that this was about putting that tweet into the context of everything else she said, and the article simply chose to put more emphasis on that one tweet to make more people likely to read the article. Nothing about the underlying facts suggests it was the primary or sole reason for the discrimination.

Second, related to the first point, this kinda supports the thing you’re arguing against: that the beliefs being discriminated against are bigotry. Again, considering the many tweets mentioned rather than just the one, it would appear that she has transphobic beliefs. This is more or less what the other person was hinting at. Sure, if it was just the one tweet, it may not be transphobic, but it wasn’t just the one tweet.

Third, it has nothing to do with censoring on online platforms.

Really, this is the one that comes closest to supporting something on your list, but here, that tweet alone wasn’t the reason for the objection but rather it combined with everything else to infer something objectionable. By contrast, people calling those who play Hogwarts Legacy “transphobic” do so based solely on that criteria.

Are there any examples where people were discriminated against based solely on ideas on your list? Because that’s what I’m asking for in terms of examples. Doing that would greatly improve your argument.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

A party’s political convention is obviously not a generic speech platform. It is a platform dedicated to supporting one particular point of view and gaining public support for that view. Censoring the speakers at such forums is routine. So while this is censorship, it is censorship that is expected by everyone. The complaints about censorship that usually arise at such forums come from people who are members of the party but hold opinions outside of the mainstream the convention organizers seek to present.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Yes. A generic speech platform supports the discussion of all topics (but may contain subgroups which are themselves not generic).

A platform for religiously observant Jews might choose to exclude Messianic Jews and any discussion about the divinity of Jesus. A generic platform should not.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

There’s only one instance I can think of, and that’s if it’s an ISP.

The underlying infrastructure IS the “generic speech platform”, though the people who grant access or “real estate” (read: server space, domains, all that nice stuff) might want to watch who they want to associate with.

Or, there is onlly one generic speech platform, and it’s called THE INTERNET.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Generic speech platforms are places where people believe they can come to speak on any topic and with any viewpoint, usually with the encouragement of the platforms themselves, who want to be seen that way. Facebook does not advertise itself as a place where it is forbidden to be against mutilating children. Twitter does not advertise itself as a place where it is forbidden to be against quotas for Chinese and Indian students.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Generic speech platforms are places where people believe they can come to speak on any topic and with any viewpoint, usually with the encouragement of the platforms themselves, who want to be seen that way.

Those platforms still have an absolute legal, moral, and ethical right to moderate themselves as they see fit. Yes or no: Do you think they should legally lose that right if they advertise themselves as “generic speech platforms”?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Generic speech platforms are places where people believe they can come to speak on any topic and with any viewpoint, usually with the encouragement of the platforms themselves, who want to be seen that way.

I don’t think there exists even one platform that encourages people to speak on any topic.

And what some people believe is just plain stupid since they couldn’t be bothered to actually read the TOS on what’s acceptable. The really stupid ones double down on their entitlement while trying to walk all over other peoples rights.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

And Facebook isn’t advertising itself as a Republican disinfo vector, yet Zuck accepted money to BE a Republican disinfo vector.

And Twitter may not always be a good place to host political speech, they’ve bent over backwards to cater to ALL politicians.

And those fine places you’ve been kicked out of? Same thing.

I think Mike’s been too kind on you, Nazi filth. You certainly have the traits of a serial abuser.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Their beliefs drive their actions and reactions. If they believe they are on a large generic speech platform and then, to their surprise, they are silenced because of their viewpoint, they will have rather different feelings than, say, if they are in a public library and are chastised for speaking too loudly.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Nothing. As usual, woke ideologues construe criticism as force so that they can hide behind the legalism of the 1st Amendment while censoring speech they hate.

Private platforms have the right to censor opinions based on viewpoint. When they do, they should be criticized, shamed, or bought, but not forced, to change their behavior.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

When they do, they should be criticized, shamed, or bought, but not forced, to change their behavior.

You keep saying that those platforms should avoid “censorship based on viewpoint” or however you want to phrase that. Your use of “should” in such a context heavily implies an obligation⁠—a duty, even!⁠—to act in that way. If non-violent/non-coercive means to enforce that obligation don’t work against a given “generic speech platform” (whatever the fuck that actually means), what the hell else is left besides violent/coercive means?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

You really are an idiot, aren’t you?

Adults, unlike three-year-olds or woke ideologues, understand that they cannot always get their way, because there are other people who want the opposite of what they do. If large generic speech platforms fail in their moral duty to uphold free speech for their users, and cannot be convinced, shamed, or bought into changing their behavior, then society will be stuck with a harmful, antisocial institution. People can try devising alternative places to speak, or just accept that, for now, they will be silenced. They should persist in trying to get the platforms to change. As with forced-birthers, the long game is never over.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

If large generic speech platforms fail in their moral duty to uphold free speech for their users, and cannot be convinced, shamed, or bought into changing their behavior, then society will be stuck with a harmful, antisocial institution.

No, it won’t. Plenty of conservative lawmakers will keep trying to turn their opinions and beliefs into law. (They’re the same kind of people who think “transgenderism” must be “eradicated”.) And sooner or later, they’ll have the power to do exactly that for Twitter. And the Supreme Court will let them do it. And your wish will come true, though it will come with the cost of removing the autonomy of all platforms to moderate as they please.

You want someone other than a platform’s owners to decide how that platform moderates speech. Sooner or later, that view may be enshrined into law⁠—and you will have helped that happen. Even if you don’t agree with the means⁠, you clearly agree with the ends.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

As usual, you argue with illusory versions of me who say what you want them to say.

I do not want any private platforms to be coerced into doing anything they don’t want to do. I want those platforms, in collaboration with their users, to come to the correct conclusions about what behavior is appropriate for the society in which they’re embedded, and to act accordingly. In my opinion, this means not censoring opinions based on viewpoint, and I will advocate for that.

It is woke ideologues who do things like preventing invited federal judges from speaking at law school events. Woke ideologues want to spread their poison, and want to silence anyone who objects to them and speaks out against them. As do their enemies, of course. Freedom of speech has very few supporters who are not fair-weather friends, with the site owner himself being a good example of that.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I want those platforms, in collaboration with their users, to come to the correct conclusions about what behavior is appropriate for the society in which they’re embedded, and to act accordingly.

You’ve been whining about “generic speech platforms” for months because some of those platforms ban bigoted speech and define “bigoted speech” for themselves. All that tells me is this: You want those platforms to allow all speech instead of merely most speech⁠—and you want no pushback for posting speech it would otherwise deem “bigoted”.

You talk about the society in which those platforms are embedded. Well, in USAmerican society, there’s plenty of Islamophobia and anti-Semitism to go around. Do you think Twitter has an obligation to host anti-Muslim and anti-Jew speech because that speech is widespread in “the society in which [Twitter is] embedded”?

Freedom of speech has very few supporters who are not fair-weather friends, with the site owner himself being a good example of that.

You have no right to speak on private property if the owner doesn’t want you to speak on their property. Come down off that cross you put yourself on, use the wood to build a bridge over that river of tears you’ve been crying, and get the fuck over it.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

As usual, you argue with illusory versions of me who say whatever you want them to say. Normal people would not find that very satisfying, but then again, you’re not very bright, so maybe it does it for you.

All speech platforms, including large generic ones, should moderate for spam, topicality, and decorum. Large generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint. As long as speech on those platforms falls within the moderation guidelines, there should be as much pushback as people opposed to certain viewpoints would like to provide, whether or not the proponents of those viewpoints mind.

Large generic speech platforms have a moral obligation, as members of a society that holds freedom of speech to be a foundational value, to distinguish between speech critical of religions or other such categories, and literal hate speech intended to foment violence or baseless hatred. It should go without saying that such distinction is very difficult. (As an old example, read James Baldwin’s essay about Jews.) But since there may be good reasons to criticize a religion or other group as a whole, screeching antisemitism or islamophobia or racism merely because you don’t like an opinion and want it silenced should not lead the platform to silence that opinion. “The cure for bad speech is more speech” is what liberals used to say before they were colonized by woke ideologues.

There is no right to speak freely on private property. But owners of large generic speech platforms should grant that ability to their users anyway, because freedom of speech is a foundational value of the society in which they are embedded.

The reason you have so much willful failure to understand this is that you’re on the side of the child mutilators, and you realize that the cultural tide is flowing against them. You are desperate to silence the people who oppose woke gender ideology, but you will not succeed.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Large generic speech platforms should not censor opinions based on viewpoint.

How do you measure “large”? At what point does a platform become “large” enough to trigger this obligation? What happens if/when that platform stops being “large” enough to trigger that obligation? Under such an obligation, how can a platform ban bigoted speech when bigoted speech is expressing an opinion-based viewpoint about the targets of that speech?

(If you’re gonna keep piling on the bullshit, I have every right to measure how much bullshit you’re intent on shoveling.)

Large generic speech platforms have a moral obligation, as members of a society that holds freedom of speech to be a foundational value, to distinguish between speech critical of religions or other such categories, and literal hate speech intended to foment violence or baseless hatred. It should go without saying that such distinction is very difficult.

Yeah, and that’s my whole point: Bigoted speech can, and often does, look like an opinion-based viewpoint. People who say “atheists are unfit to serve in public office” are expressing a viewpoint, but they’re also serving up bigotry against atheists by implying that atheists are intrinsically untrustworthy/immoral and hence unworthy of being a lawmaker. Your whole schtick has been about wanting Twitter not to engage in “viewpoint-based discrimination”. But when even you can’t draw a clear line between bigoted speech and viewpoints in a way that separates speech cleanly between those two categories, how do you expect a service like Twitter to do the same?

Twitter might have some automated tools to help moderate the service, but those tools (and the rest of the site’s moderation) is still designed and run by humanity. We’re all flawed here, son. You’re asking for perfection⁠—for flawlessness⁠—from people and people-designed tools that can barely hit adequacy on a regular basis.

there may be good reasons to criticize a religion or other group as a whole

And that’s more about what they do than who they are. For example: I don’t rip on the Catholic Church because it’s a group of Christians. I do it because the Catholic Church is a multinational criminal enterprise that has covered up child abuse for decades and done little at an institutional level to prevent future abuse from happening.

screeching antisemitism or islamophobia or racism merely because you don’t like an opinion and want it silenced should not lead the platform to silence that opinion

Would you prefer a platform to promote that kind of speech?

I’m all for criticizing the actions of a given group of people⁠—again, look at how I rip on the Catholic Church⁠—but there’s a difference between saying “the Catholic Church covers up child rape” and “every church-going Catholic is a rapist-in-waiting”. A platform worth a good god’s damn would accept the first but not the second, no matter how committed they are to being a “free speech platform”, because the second remark is blatant anti-Catholic/anti-Christian bigotry (and probably a bit of defamation to boot).

“The cure for bad speech is more speech” is what liberals used to say

Yeah, funny thing about that: People stopped believing in that when Donald Trump was able to lie without any genuine consequence and still serve a full term as the President of the United States. “More speech” on its own isn’t going to solve the problem of people believing in “bad speech” when the people who believe that speech are so deep in their Emotional Support Realities that they think a call for eradicating “transgenderism” by an anti-queer conservative at a conservative political convention is referring to some kind of ideology and not an entire group of people.

There is no right to speak freely on private property. But owners of large generic speech platforms should grant that ability to their users anyway

For what reason? (he asks, knowing there’s a shitty justification coming…)

because freedom of speech is a foundational value of the society in which they are embedded

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again, and this time I’m going to header-tag this shit so it might pierce your Emotional Support Reality’s AT Field and reach your fucking brain:

Free speech is not free reach. No platform owes you a bullhorn or an audience at its own expense. You have no right to say any- and everything you want on someone else’s private property. And “foundational values” are meaningless when they threaten to take away someone else’s rights⁠—including the right to decide what speech is acceptable on their property.

I don’t know what part of that you fail to understand. Is it the “not free reach” part or the “take away someone else’s rights” part?

you’re on the side of the child mutilators

You haven’t shown me any evidence of a significant number of under-18 children receiving sex reassignment surgery without prior consultation, evaluation, and parental consent. Remember that transgender children are less than 1% of all children in the U.S., and the number of children who do receive any gender-reaffirming surgery is even smaller. Or are you going to keep listening to Jesse “I’m probably an accessory to numerous HIPAA violations” Singal tell bullshit stories about trans people?

Christ, it’s so painfully obvious that you don’t listen to trans people. But hey, your willingness to make that clear every time you post is appreciated.

you realize that the cultural tide is flowing against them

Yes, yes, there’s a shitload of anti-trans bills and anti-trans hatred floating around, we get it. Christ, dude, I just referenced the “eradicate transgender pe—I mean, ‘transgenderism’ ” bullshit; I’m not intellectually disabled like you think I am.

You are desperate to silence the people who oppose woke gender ideology

If I’m desperate to silence anyone, it’s the kind of people who are one step away from calling for transgender people to be rounded up and segregated from the rest of society until the “transgender question” can be solved.

People like those who applauded Michael Knowles when he all but said that. People who are equally as fervent about their anti-trans hate as he is.

Y’know…people like you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Large generic speech platforms are those that see themselves as open to as many users as will have them, and want to host discussions on every topic that their users care about. The obligation for large generic speech platforms to honor the foundational values of their society is a moral one, not a legal one, so no strict definition for largeness is necessary. The platform owners should introspect and realize for themselves, perhaps with help from their users, when they have become large and generic enough to warrant giving special consideration to the free speech of their users.

No matter how a site decides to moderate or censor, the line between what is acceptable and not acceptable is going to be blurry and fractal. It isn’t any easier to ban, automatically or not, anti-woke opinions than anti-viewpoint opinions, especially since people will be attempting to adversarially game the banning guidelines. Look at how “Let’s go Brandon” became a thing, for example. Deciding not to ban opinions based on viewpoint doesn’t make the moderation job easier or harder, it just sets the dividing line at a different point on the spectrum of speech.

No large generic speech platform is legally obligated to provide “free reach” to its users, in exactly the same way that no wealthy person is legally obligated to donate charity to the poor. But as part of societies that have expectations for behavior that go beyond strict legal requirements, large generic speech platforms that censor should receive the same sort of criticism from the public as do rich skinflints. You willfully fail to understand this because you want the censorship that the large generic platforms once provided for you.

Your ilk have literally made talk therapy for people who are unhappy with whom they are attracted to illegal, as long as that attraction is for people of their own sex. (Presumably woke ideologues are still, for a while longer, OK with talk therapy for minor-attracted persons.) The only people you want to listen to are the ones who believe the same things you do. Everyone else is to be silenced.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Large generic speech platforms are those that see themselves as open to as many users as will have them, and want to host discussions on every topic that their users care about.

That just answers what a “generic speech platform” is. It doesn’t have any objective measure of what “large” means. Again: How is “large” measured in this context, such that there is a clear and objective (enough) dividing line between “large” and “not large”?

The obligation for large generic speech platforms to honor the foundational values of their society is a moral one, not a legal one, so no strict definition for largeness is necessary.

If you’re going to claim that a “large” platform has obligations that smaller platforms don’t, you need to define how you measure “large” in this context. Otherwise you’re just being (more of) an obtuse asshole.

No matter how a site decides to moderate … the line between what is acceptable and not acceptable is going to be blurry and fractal.

That’s why decisions on how a site moderates itself should be left in the hands of itself: No “one size fits all” option for content moderation will ever exist and trying to push one on a platform by way of whining about “moral obligations” and “free speech” isn’t gonna make one magically exist.

Deciding not to ban opinions based on viewpoint doesn’t make the moderation job easier or harder, it just sets the dividing line at a different point on the spectrum of speech.

You’re dodging a question you didn’t actually answer: How is a service supposed to avoid moderating “opinion-based viewpoints” (as you say it is morally obligated to do) while also moderating bigoted speech when even you can’t draw a clear line between bigoted speech and viewpoints in a way that separates speech cleanly between those two categories?

large generic speech platforms that censor should receive the same sort of criticism from the public as do rich skinflints. You willfully fail to understand this because you want the censorship that the large generic platforms once provided for you.

Criticism is fine. It’s when that criticism turns into damn near demands for those platforms to host all legally protected speech⁠—demands that are somehow never aimed at the right-wing shitpits but always aimed at platforms believed to be ostensibly left-leaning⁠—that you drive your sorry ass into Crazytown for an extended vacation.

You seem to forget that for all its size and its space in our modern lives, Twitter is not a public utility. It is a privately owned open-to-the-public service. Using that service is a privilege, not a right. Losing your spot on that service means losing that privilege, not being denied your civil rights.

Unless you want to go on record as saying that meatspace businesses like grocery stores have the exact same moral obligation that you claim Twitter has if a grocery store allows people to put up flyers and whatnot on a community bulletin board inside the store, you’re gonna want to abandon that “moral obligation to host all speech” argument.

Your ilk have literally made talk therapy for people who are unhappy with whom they are attracted to illegal, as long as that attraction is for people of their own sex.

“Conversion ‘therapy’ ” is a barbaric practice that has been condemned by virtually every major scientific body. It is psychological torture at best, physical torture at the absolute worst. Many supporters of the practice see the suicide of a “patient” as a success story because the goal of that “therapy” is to decrease the number of gay/queer people in the world. And you’re trying to support that shit.

If an ostensibly gay person has issues with their sexuality to the point where they think they have to change who they are, they’re dealing with internalized homophobia. That deserves actual therapy to help that person work through that internalized shame and accept themselves for who they are. They don’t need to have their sense of self (if not their body) broken down and destroyed by people who are, given the odds, incredibly likely to think of that gay person’s mid-“treatment” suicide as a good thing.

minor-attracted persons

The fact that you refer to pedophiles with that phrase is kind of a big tell. I’ll let everyone else decide how you’re telling on yourself, but I’ll give you a hint: It’s one of two options and neither one makes you look even remotely good.

The only people you want to listen to are the ones who believe the same things you do. Everyone else is to be silenced.

Yeah, see, here’s the thing: If you want me to listen to rank-ass queerphobia that was already stale as fuck a decade ago, I don’t need to hear it and I’d rather you keep that shit limited to spaces inhabited by yourself and your anti-queer allies.

You claim that I only want to listen to people “who believe the same things [I] do”, but that’s limited to a small and specific subset of topics⁠—one of which is queer issues in general. As someone who identifies as queer, I take great offense to seeing other queer people attacked only for who they are. That includes transgender people, most of whom are viciously attacked in the press (and sometimes in the streets) for who they are and for things the vast majority of trans people aren’t even trying to do. (For fuck’s sake, Hyman, how many transgender high school athletes do you think West Virginia’s law actually targeted?)

Trans people don’t want to take over the world and trans everyone’s genders and force shitheads like you to use neopronouns. They want to live as their authentic selves like every cisgender person gets to do⁠—and they want to do that without being ostracized, demonized, or even murdered for it. People like you don’t give a fuck about any of that because you see their very existence as an attempt to indoctrinate everyone with whom trans people socialize into the ideology of “transgenderism”. And hey, wouldn’t you know it, some douchebag called for the “eradication” of “transgenderism” a few days ago! “Funny” how that works, huh~.

Yes, I want you to shut the fuck up and leave this site for good. No, that doesn’t mean I want you to lose your right to speak. No matter how reprehensible, how vile, how downright morally heinous I think your speech is, you should absolutely have the right to keep speaking it. But I wish you’d take the “hints” everyone has been shoving in your face these past few months and fuck off forever to somewhere that likes your anti-trans speech.

Nobody here wants to silence you. But they sure as fuck want you to leave. And that, you gruesome son of a bitch, is far, far, far, far, far more morally defensible than you wanting to keep “conversion ‘therapy’ ” legal or thinking trans people need to be segregated from the rest of society until the “trans question” can be “solved”. Go fuck yourself, you Rowling wannabe.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:22

Once again, a man calling himself a woman has beaten real women in a sporting event:
https://reduxx.info/italy-trans-identified-male-takes-home-eighth-womens-running-championship/

Whether or not you will ever come to terms with it, your gaslighting is not working.

And yes, of course, stores that choose to host public bulletin boards have a moral obligation not to censor users of those boards based on viewpoint. This is more usually seen in colleges, where woke ideologues try to tear down bulletins for speaking events sponsored by conservative student groups.

As for how to moderate, the answer is, the same way it’s done now. Sites should have guidelines describing what is acceptable and what is not, and then moderators have to read the messages and decide on which side of the line they fall. There’s no magic bullet here.

Finally, the point of free speech is to allow dissent to challenge prevailing ideas. Sending dissenters off to “free speech zones” where no one can hear them (as many colleges have tried to do) vitiates that purpose. Dissent is supposed to make you uncomfortable. You pointed at the 1965 Alabama marches in a recent post; do you think that the marchers should have walked only in places where white people couldn’t see them?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:21

The only people you want to listen to are the ones who believe the same things you do. Everyone else is to be silenced.

No, but you are being asked to not continually attack people for what they are. Note, that is not agree with or support them in their choice, but just stop continually telling them how wrong they are etc. If you can’t do that, you are actively causing other people harm.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Large generic speech platforms that silence opinions based on viewpoint should be encouraged, shamed, or bought, but not forced, to get them to behave properly.

What about the rights of the large generic speech platforms, do they no longer have them?

Doesn’t Truth Social have a fundamental right to censor left leaning speech that it doesn’t want to publish on its platform?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Ali private platforms have the right to censor as they wish. But having the right to do something does not make doing that thing right. In a society that holds freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms that censor should be encouraged, shamed, or bought not to do that, because doing that is wrong, even though it’s legal and constitutional.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If Truth Social would aim to be a generic speech platform, then I would say the same thing about them. But Truth Social, Gab, Parler, Daily Kos, Talking Points Memo, and so forth all aim to be biased platforms that only welcome one-sided viewpoints. And people know it – no one goes to these platforms expecting that they can post a contrary viewpoint without being censored. That is not true, or should not be true, for the large generic speech platforms.

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Toast says:

Re: Re: Re:9

This is hands down the most obvious Post-hoc-explanation I have heard in quite some time. Truth obviously advertises itself as impartial, they literally call themselves „ America’s “Big Tent” social media platform that encourages an open, free, and honest global conversation without discriminating on the basis of political ideology.“ How much more generic should they be???
Your entire argument obviously started from the conclusion that platforms should discriminate only against left-wing-users, and then went backwards toward some insane „generic vs specific“-divide that has never, and will never, work.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Truth Social is routinely mocked, here and elsewhere, for very openly not living up to its claims. Which is the correct response to a generic speech platform that censors, so I fail to see your point. It’s like criticizing Fox News for not being fair and balanced. Sure, of course they’re not, but everyone knows they’re lying when they claim to be that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

In a society that holds freedom of speech as a foundational value

From government interference, you missed that part. You can of course give examples of where the Founding Fathers said what you implied they said, that freedom of speech always trump freedom of association and private property rights.

It’s funny how your version of “freedom of speech” means trampling other peoples rights.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Freedom of speech is the foundational value. It was not created by the founders, it was enshrined by the founders in the Bill of Rights, which was aimed at limiting the powers of government, but that statement of limitation is far from the entirety of free speech.

My version of free speech involves no trampling of anyone’s rights. Private platforms may censor as they wish. But the public gets to weigh in on that censorship, to encourage, shame, or buy those platforms in order to get them to voluntarily change their behavior.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Getting what you ask for vs getting what you want

The public by and large don’t want to hang out on jackass/bigot-friendly platforms.

Online platforms craft moderation practices and rules to best cater to the majority of people.

Result: Most online platforms will be anti-jackass/bigot not because of any ideological reason but because that’s the best stance to take to encourage a thriving user base and resulting profits.

It does indeed seem like they’re getting exactly what they’re asking for already, it’s just not what they want.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Yes, in fact it is working, including the fact that Musk bought Twitter, that the rights holders of Dahl agreed to publish unbowdlerized versions of his books, and that the Stanford law school administration was forced to apologize for how they allowed a federal judge to be treated.

Attempts at censorship are being brought low by criticism rather than by force, just as they should be.

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

…including the fact that Musk bought Twitter…

…and a huge bunch the advertisers ran away because they don’t want to be associated with the kinds of speech Musk thinks should be unfettered. Like you said, system working.

…and that the Stanford law school administration was forced to apologize for how they allowed a federal judge to be treated.

Because apparently the judge’s free speech is more “equal” than the students free speech.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

If you look at liberal political websites, you can see them decrying the fact that companies and contributors who shunned Republican representatives in the immediate aftermath of their refusal to certify the presidential election have largely returned. Twitter advertisers will do the same. It’s all just the usual interplay between fear and greed.

Naturally, woke ideologues always want to silence dissent, but it is never free speech to prevent speech from being heard.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Just as you understand that large generic speech platforms have the right to censor opinions based on viewpoint, you need to understand that the government has the right to speak for itself, including setting the curriculum for public schools.

Just as public schools should not teach creationism as the truth because it is a lie, public schools should not teach woke gender ideology or critical race theory as the truth because they too are lies.

I do not support banning books from libraries, and I despise the kind of people who would do so, provided that the ban on banning is comprehensive, so that no books are banned or rejected because of the viewpoints they espouse. Time to Think needs to be on the shelf along with Gender Queer.

I do not support banning discussion of controversial or prevalent social issues in schools, only having schools pick one side of such issues and teaching that as the truth when there is no near universal consensus on the matter. Those issues should be discussed by “teaching the controversy”, that is, explaining what the various sides believe.

As always, my viewpoints are my own. I do not care about who else might share them, or if they hold other viewpoints that I do not share. If you do not like those other opinions, I suggest you go argue with the people who hold them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I do not support banning books from libraries, and I despise the kind of people who would do so

And yet, the people whom you support in their (and by extension, your) attempts to ruin trans people’s lives⁠—often to the point of making them suicidal⁠—are also the kind of people who want to ban books from libraries even if they so much as mention that trans people (or queer people in general) exist. Curious. 🤔

I do not support banning discussion of controversial or prevalent social issues in schools

And yet…well, you get the point there.

Those issues should be discussed by “teaching the controversy”, that is, explaining what the various sides believe.

One side thinks trans/queer people should be allowed to live in society and have all the same rights as everyone else. The other side wants to eradicate queer people⁠—from society, if not from existence. For what reason should schools “teach the controversy” as if the idea that queer people deserve to be ostracized from society (if not outright murdered) is an idea worth exploring?

my viewpoints are my own

No, they’re not. They’re right-wing transphobe bullshit that you repeat ad naseum because all you have is the same ten obviously workshopped paragraphs of anti-queer, anti-“woke”, anti-“radical leftist” nonsense about “woke gender ideologues” and “large generic speech platforms”. If you had anything other than that, you’d have something useful⁠—like, say, suggestions for actual solutions to the problems facing trans people that don’t amount to forcibly segregating or violently annihilating them.

All you have is hatred; all you give is despair. What sort of life do you expect trans people to have when you’ve made clear that you will go out of your way to harass and bully them even if it makes them kill themselves, to spend your life treating them like subhuman filth, to be no better than the lawmakers who are trying to legislate trans people out of existence by any means necessary?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

As always, my viewpoints are my own. I do not care about who else might share them, or if they hold other viewpoints that I do not share. If you do not like those other opinions, I suggest you go argue with the people who hold them.

If people require affirmation of their beliefs in order to not kill themselves, they are seriously mentally ill and require immediate treatment. If the mental illness also includes the delusion that they are not the sex of their body, or that they cannot live in a body that is not the sex they want it to be, then hopefully the treatment will address that as well, so that they choose to not have themselves mutilated.

But in any case, trans people should live the same life that religious people live. Religious people will never get my affirmation that their gods exist, because they do not, but they should not need my affirmation. I would not prevent them from holding their beliefs and practicing them (unlike woke ideologues, of course, who want to force religious people into behavior they believe is sinful, if demurring from that behavior goes counter to woke ideology), unless those practices impinge upon the practices of others. Observant Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and vegans may choose not to eat bacon cheeseburgers, but they should not be allowed to prevent the cafeteria from serving them, or even to force the cafeteria to offer food that is acceptable to them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

As always, my viewpoints are my own.

No, they’re not. They’re viewpoints that are built on the viewpoints of others⁠—as are everyone else’s. You can pick and choose what to accept, sure. But to act like you formed your anti-trans views out of thin air without the influence of anyone else’s anti-trans rhetoric is patently ridiculous and flagrantly dishonest.

I do not care about who else might share them, or if they hold other viewpoints that I do not share.

Then that sucks for you. You’re going to get lumped in with people like Michael “I didn’t say ‘eradicate trans people’ even though that’s what ‘eradicating transgenderism’ would actually do” Knowles who espouse the same rhetoric that you do. Whether you like that association is irrelevant. They say anti-trans shit, you say anti-trans shit, and you’ve given me no reason to think you’re any different from them⁠—especially with all the racism you’ve espoused.

If people require affirmation of their beliefs in order to not kill themselves, they are seriously mentally ill and require immediate treatment.

I know this might come as a shock to you, but trans people don’t want you to constantly “affirm their beliefs”. They want people like you to leave them the fuck alone. Like, okay, so you don’t wanna “play along” with the “transgender hallucination” or whatever the fuck you bigoted assholes are calling it. Fine⁠—not my circus, not my monkeys. But you’ve made it clear that you’re fine with constantly getting in trans people’s faces and harassing them because they exist in a way that pisses you off to no end. That’s what people here have a problem with, Hyman: It’s not whether you choose to “believe in transgender ideology”, it’s you outright stating that you’ll harass trans people⁠—possibly even into suicide!⁠—because you want to go out of your way to make them believe what you believe instead of the other way around. For every accusation about “woke gender ideologists” that you have up your sleeve, you’re confessing your own desire to enforce your ideology onto trans people⁠—possibly through any means necessary, given your whole Knowles-esque “I don’t support violence against trans people, but I do support eradicating their ‘ideology’ ” schtick.

trans people should live the same life that religious people live

So…they should be free from identity-based harassment in public by bigots like you? 🤔

Religious people will never get my affirmation that their gods exist, because they do not, but they should not need my affirmation.

They don’t. But as with trans people, they also don’t need your bigoted ass constantly harassing them about their religious views. Or do you plan to visit churches and harass people there like you’ve said you would do to trans people in public?

I would not prevent them from holding their beliefs and practicing them (unlike woke ideologues, of course, who want to force religious people into behavior they believe is sinful, if demurring from that behavior goes counter to woke ideology)

Yeah, see, here’s the thing: When people enter the public sphere, they have to make concessions so other people can exist in the public sphere. One of those concessions is not being able to beat people upside the head (figuratively or literally) with a holy book so the person being assaulted will act as the assaulter demands they act. That’s how society works.

Whenever you hear stories about, oh, “the gubmint forced the bakery to make a cake for a bunch of f⸻ts”, it’s helpful to look at the details of the story and get the actual facts right. In the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, for example, the bakery never made a single wedding cake for a gay couple⁠—decorated or otherwise⁠—and when told that it must offer wedding cakes to gay customers (decorations notwithstanding) or stand in violation of Colorado’s non-discrimination laws, the bakery stopped making wedding cakes altogether. The whole point of the case wasn’t about decorations⁠—it was that Masterpiece didn’t sell to a gay couple the same base-level product from its “menu” of products/services that it offered to straight couples for years. And as shown in the Azucar Bakery and Hands-On Originals cases, neither a customer nor the government can compel a business to express speech on its products that said business deems objectionable.

“Woke” people (whatever that means to you this week) don’t want to force bigots into no longer holding their bigoted beliefs. They don’t even want to force bigots into, say, decorating a wedding cake with ostensibly pro-gay messaging. They want bigots to follow the law or suffer the consequences for violating it⁠—no more, no less. If you’re going to serve the general public, you don’t get to decide who makes up the general public. And if the law says you have to serve queer people and cishet people equally (custom speech notwithstanding), you can either follow the law or suffer the consequences⁠—which is no different from the law asking you to equally serve people regardless of their race or religion.

All you have is hatred; all you give is despair. And when words no longer work, you will turn to violence. You’ve made that clear by your fervent insistence on harassing trans people⁠—and sooner or later, you will resort to violent actions when words can no longer satsify your volatile anti-trans hatred. But you can choose a better path, Hyman. You can choose to stop being such a goddamned bigot and stop wanting to harass trans people out of public life/into an open grave. But you have to make that choice yourself.

Is causing untold pain and misery to a group of people who are already marginalized in society⁠—all for the sake of making yourself feel good⁠—really what you want to do with your one chance at life?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

As always, my viewpoints are my own. I do not care about who else might share them, or if they hold other viewpoints that I do not share. I do not care whether you “lump me in with those people”; I state my beliefs, and you can do as you like. I have formed my beliefs as most people do, using experience gathered over a lifetime to separate truth from wishful thinking. That worked for me with respect to religion, and it works for me with respect to woke ideology, especially woke gender ideology.

No matter how many times you state that trans people just want to be left alone, that lie will not transmute into the truth. Trans people, or at least their woke ideological supporters, want to force people into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, want to have the lies of woke gender ideology taught as the truth in public schools, and demand that everyone affirm those lies. This could not be further from being left alone to live one’s life. This is blatant trampling over the beliefs and practices of normal people who do not believe that anyone can be a sex other than that of their body, and over the beliefs and practices of religious people who believe that it is sinful to abet practices of LGBT people with respect to gender, sex, and marriage.

The essence of living in a free and pluralistic society is that you do not get to do that, no matter how right you think you are and how wrong you think your opponents are. You do not get to use emotional blackmail to force your opponents to abandon their views and practices, no matter how much you claim that the people you support are “harmed” by not having their lies affirmed. If the people you support cannot stand being told that their beliefs are false, then it is up to them to stuff up their ears. In a society where freedom of speech is a foundational value, you do not have the right to silence someone because they are speaking things you don’t like where you can hear them.

As for “turning to violence”, it is you woke ideologues who support rioting, looting, and arson when you cannot get your way. The government has arrested and prosecuted hundreds of people who took part in the Capitol riot; how much have they prosecuted the people who looted and destroyed endless numbers of downtown businesses in the name of “racial justice”? It is you woke ideologues who decided that abandoning COVID restrictions to march in protest was the correct thing to do, no matter how much it might spread disease. It is you woke ideologues who have decided that arrested criminals should be freed from jail on no bail.

You fantasize about your enemies turning to violence because you fantasize hurting them should they do that, because you know that you are losing your fight to the actions of voters, no violence required. Look at the desperation of the MSNBC anchors, as they try to hurt DeSantis because they fear that a DeSantis campaign will succeed where a Trump campaign would fail.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

No matter how many times you state that trans people just want to be left alone, that lie will not transmute into the truth.

And no matter how many times you keep repeating the same empty words that you workshopped with right-wing shitbirds, the emotional reaction you’re looking for⁠—hatred for trans people⁠—isn’t going to happen here. You’ll never be anything more than a serial harasser of trans people and you will eventually resort to anti-trans violence because unceasing, unyielding, irrational hate is like that.

I urge you to stop giving a shit about other people’s genitals. If you can’t do that, at least shut the fuck up about it on stories that aren’t even about trans people, you obsessed dumbfuck.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I have suggested to you on various occasions to simply accept that trans people exist, and should be allowed to live their lives as best they cam. That is not asking you to support any ideology beyond treat all humans as human beings. You on the other hand cannot let the matter rest, and launch into attacks on trans people being allowed to live their chosen life style at any opportunity that you can grab. Indeed if you look through the comments on this site, the subject of trans women almost always comes up because you have brought the subject up. You have a very unhealthy obsession with the subject.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

That is not asking you to support any ideology beyond treat all humans as human beings.

That is a lie. Woke gender ideologues insist on letting people force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, and having their false beliefs about gender be taught as the truth in public schools.

This is the difference between accepting that Jews exist and should be allowed to live their lives as best they can, and demanding that all restaurants be certified kosher.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Woke gender ideologues insist on letting people force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them, […]

Which you have not demonstrated as asking you to support an ideology. At best, it is acquiescence, which isn’t the same thing as support, but even that is questionable.

[…] and having their false beliefs about gender be taught as the truth in public schools.

You have not demonstrated this to be the case. You also haven’t demonstrated that their beliefs are false to begin with. At best, you have demonstrated that some of their beliefs have not yet been demonstrated to be true (though even that is questionable), which is not the same as demonstrating them to be false, and it certainly doesn’t show that their beliefs are being taught as truth in public schools. Your only attempt at proving the latter doesn’t actually have anything to do with transgender people but intersex people, and it doesn’t even affirm anything but simply remains silent on a specific issue related to that.

As such, this remains pure assertion without factual support.

This is the difference between accepting that Jews exist and should be allowed to live their lives as best they can, and demanding that all restaurants be certified kosher.

No, it isn’t. At best, it’s the difference between accepting that Jews exist and should be allowed to live their lives as best they can, and demanding that you stop trying to make Jews eat kosher. No one is forcing you to eat kosher or to use the restroom of the opposite sex. Just mind your own business.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Yes or no, Hyman: Do you believe the government should have the legal right to compel any privately owned interactive web service into hosting legally protected speech that the owners/operators of said service don’t want to host?

I dunno, man, does the government have the right to make that guy bake the cake? Write the words on the cake he doesn’t agree with?

Not just host someone else’s cake, mind you.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, you dumb bitch.

You’re clearly referring to the Masterpiece Cakeshop case, where a bakery refused to serve a queer customer equally and was hit with the consequences of violating a non-discrimination ordinance. But here’s what you clearly misunderstand about that case:

  1. At every level aside from SCOTUS, the bakery lost the case on the merits; SCOTUS punted on the issue and ruled on procedural errors.
  2. At no point in that case⁠—no point whatsoever!⁠—was the bakery ever compelled by the government to make that customer a cake (or to decorate a cake for them).
  3. The bakery lost that case precisely because it refused to even consider making a wedding cake for a gay customer; decorations/speech never entered into the equation because the bakery refused to serve its basic menu equally under the law.
  4. Another bakery in the area, Azucar Bakery, won a case brought against it precisely because it sold a customer two cakes, refused to decorate it with what the bakery considered to be hate speech, and offered the customer everything he would’ve needed to decorate the cake himself. It did everything reasonable to accomodate the customer’s wishes without decorating the cakes with speech they didn’t want to .
  5. If the government had compelled speech from either Masterpiece Cakeshop or Azucar Bakery, I would’ve been against that in either case. The government can compel a public accomodation business to serve customers equally under the law, but that only applies to a generic selection/“menu” of items⁠—it can’t make a business put “death to gays” or “happy gay wedding” on a cake if that business doesn’t want to do that.

Now, if you have any other misconceptions about that case, feel free to share them so I can correct your misinformed ass and you can stop sounding like an anti-queer jackass.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You’re clearly referring to the Masterpiece Cakeshop case

Goldstar!

A bunch of random strawmen, mischaracterizations, and unsupported assertions by Stephen T. Stone

This will be fun:

  1. Funny way to say a bunch of liberal judges misjudged, SCOTUS told them that their basis of ruling was wrong, and to try again.
  2. Incorrect
  3. Well that’s just made up. Literally none of that is true. Phillips had no problem making a cake for someone who was gay, was explicit about selling a cake already made or a new one, just not supporting a gay wedding. Also, he won. Are you talking about a cake shop in an alternate dimension maybe?
  4. Well, no not even vaguely actually. In fact SCTOTUS quoted that case of CO applying the law unequally based on the speech involved. I.e. because authorities did not agree with the message in one case, the Bakers decision to refuse it was Ok, and because they agreed with the message in the other it was not OK for the baker to refuse it. Which is very much not OK.
  5. Yes, they did and no, you would not. In neither case were they asking for “public accommodation”, they were asking for expressive speech, and in one case the government tried to force the speech and in the other they did not, based on which speech they agreed with.

That all sounded very rehearsed but also very wrong. Is this another echo chamber thing where you all agree on a version of events that have nothing to do with the facts? Seems like.

Now, if you have any other misconceptions about that case

No, I feel quite well versed, thank you very much. I’ll take the written court opinions over your made up version.

But we have established that you’re a rank hypocrite.

When the censorship runs your way you’re quite happy to chime “but it’s a private company!”, “you can’t force them to allow that!” and “it’s OK if when they label ‘misinformation’ they’re wrong, it’s OK, you can still say it other places!”

When the censorship (not actually censorship, Phillips was refusing compelled speech, maybe “resistance” is a better term) runs against you it’s all “discrimination”, “Public accommodation”, “The government wasn’t compelling speech even though it was clearly doing that and even being selective about it!” and finally “there are definitely no other cake shops anywhere willing to make gay wedding cakes!”

So you’re just lying, or possibly have zero introspection. OK. I mean, I knew that, but it’s nice to hear you SAY it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Samuel Abram (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 "Woke"

woke gender ideologues

Regarding people who use “woke” as a pejorative, I’ll just leave it to Jason Overstreet:

The word “woke” is becoming more beautiful by the day. Why? Because the absolute worst people on earth use it as a slur against everything that is good.

Stay Woke.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Rather like the people who still believe that “defund the police” is a good slogan to use. Whatever. By all means, you keep on using “woke” to mean “good”, I’ll keep using “woke” to mean “bad”, and we’ll see how things shake out.

Woke ideologues, who make a habit of using 1984 as a manual rather than a warning, and who would redefine “man” and “woman” into meaningless terms that justify the mutilation of children, seem remarkably dense when it comes to realizing that their own word of choice has also become redefined.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Fraud and voter disenfranchisement aren’t a viewpoint based opinion

Of course they are. VERY disputable. And a hot second ago you were arguing that Twitter should in fact try to decide what is “true” but if it got it wrong that was no big deal.

You can’t actually have it both ways.

includes private platforms retaining their rights to free speech.

Masnick claims often that “censorship is free speech” but that isn’t actually true, at all. No, deleting others words is not “speech”, it’s the opposite of that. Twitter may be able legally to do it but doing so is NOT free speech, at all, and it’s dumb to suggest it is.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Fraud and voter disenfranchisement aren’t a viewpoint based opinion

Of course they are. VERY disputable.

Facts are not disputable. How many courts, with judges that Trump appointed himself, (ok, not really himself, it was all the Fed Soc) told him that until he brings real concrete evidence of voter fraud, there is nothing to litigate. And not a single court case provided any tangible evidence of voter fraud.

So, tell me, what facts in the whole Trump “Big Lie” are disputable when there has been a total of ZERO proof that would provide evidence of voter fraud?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint. A large generic speech platform should act as a disinterested host for its users, not as an arbiter of what is true and what is acceptable.

Naturally woke ideologues welcome censorship as long as it’s silencing opinions they hate, because wokeness is an enemy of freedom.

^^^This, this exactly.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint. A large generic speech platform should act as a disinterested host for its users, not as an arbiter of what is true and what is acceptable.

Naturally woke ideologues welcome censorship as long as it’s silencing opinions they hate, because wokeness is an enemy of freedom.

^^^This, this exactly.

You’re free to start a “speech platform” that acts that way, Matty. Just be ready to speedrun the moderation learning curve.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You’re free to start a “speech platform” that acts that way, Matty. Just be ready to speedrun the moderation learning curve.

Actually I’m not free to do that. Someone tried and Big Tech killed it off over a weekend.

But I think you’re missing the point that you only like the censorship cuz it mostly cuts your way.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Actually I’m not free to do that. Someone tried and Big Tech killed it off over a weekend.

Just don’t be as dumb as Parler was, and you’ll be fine.

But I think you’re missing the point that you only like the censorship cuz it mostly cuts your way.

And you probably use a Musk biography to jerk off to.

See, you’re not the only one who can make up complete nonsense.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

But exactly, you’re not allowed to do that. Big Tech killed it off

The fact that Parler still exists pretty much negates anything you’ve said about them.

How are you so bad at this that you make up shit and lie about something that can easily be disproven in less than a second?

Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Big Tech killed it off specifically BECAUSE it wasn’t moderating “enough”, whatever the fuck that is.

  1. Parler still exists, so it wasn’t “killed off”. You’re lying again.
  2. Since Parler was being hosted by someone who had rules to follow and they didn’t follow those rules, they were punished for it.

So to reiterate: just don’t be as dumb as Parler, and you’ll be fine.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

At the end of the day, you can have a billion unique viewers a day and still not break even.

4chan was definitely not profitable under moot, but he finally managed to make the site break even before he handed it over to the new owner, who then proceeded to do a ton of shady shit like selling information in a desperate attempt to make a thin profit.

Hits mean nothing if you can’t monetize them, just ask Elon. And in 4chan’s case, very few people would want to advertise THERE even before the white supremacists moved into one of the boards.

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms should not be silencing opinions based on viewpoint.

In a society that has freedom of speech as a foundational value, large generic speech platforms have the freedom to tell you to follow their rules or fuck off to someone else’s platform. Why is your freedom more important than theirs?

A large generic speech platform should act as a disinterested host for its users, not as an arbiter of what is true and what is acceptable.

That’s a business model proposal, not a foundational value. You’re welcome you go start your own social media company based on that principle. And why shouldn’t you, it’s worked out so well for all the other that have tried it!

…wokeness is an enemy of freedom.

“Wokeness” was only ever treating people the same way you’d like to be treated and not being an asshole. Y’know, traditional Christian values. It certainly had nothing to do with or have any affect on your “freedom” until RWNJ’s twisted and distorted the term into a completely unrelated catch-all for shit they didn’t understand and hence didn’t like.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The large generic speech platforms may implement any policy they like. The public may tell them its opinion of their policy.

“Wokeness” is now a useful term for a constellation of false and evil hard-left ideologies, including gender ideology and critical race theory. I would say that the horse has left the barn, and it’s too late to lock the door.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

"Most liberal circuit court agrees with me (about something only sorta related) therefore all my opinions are validated!"

Of course I think this is great news, because it massively increases the chances that SCOTUS will take up this issue, and I am quite sure they will not reach the same conclusions. This is not some weird YT algo case, this is a much more direct cause and effect.

“Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?”

As Orwellian as the California Secretary of State’s Office being a “trusted flagger” for some reason (Jesus, why?!? Who tf thought that was a good idea?), *they are not the fucken FBI”. People do not generally feel free to deny the FBI. Nor a huge swarm of NGOs meeting with them weekly and inviting them to conferences (but hired to do so by DOJ, DOD, others).

Here, right here, is an email suggesting Twitter employees didn’t feel comfortable telling government “no” anymore:

https://twitter.com/mtaibbi/status/1610394294850064385

That Twitter and Facebook allegedly removed 98 percent of the posts flagged by the OEC does not suggest that the companies ceded control over their content-moderation decisions to the State and thereby became the government’s private enforcers. It merely shows that these private and state actors were generally aligned in their missions to limit the spread of misleading election information. Such alignment does not transform private conduct into state action.

I think that statement is laughably untrue on it’s face. OF COURSE a 98% success rate means they have ceded over control of their censorship to a state agency.

But this is funny for another reason, because you (and others) routinely cite a 40% rate as evidence that Twitter was not conducting gov censorship by proxy, to which my question is “At what part does it become government censorship, then?” The answer is apparently “never” because even 98% doesn’t qualify. Why bring it up, then? Why pretend the success rate is a rebuttal when according to you (and some activist judges) no rate would ever make it censorship by proxy?

Of course I believe the direct opposite: Even if Twitter NEVER listened it would still be infringement because a government agency tried to pressure (the FBI does not merely “request”) Twitter into suppressing the speech of US citizens.

Also this leapt out at me.

Flagging a post that potentially violates a private company’s contentmoderation policy does not fit this mold.

OK, what about all the times the FBI (and many, many, so many others) were NOT merely reporting about what they thought were TOS violations? (as if Twitter needed their help, it’s pretty funny) When they were erroneously claiming US citizens were foreign agents (not sure why foreign agents don’t get free speech, but that’s a different question) or when they were asking that actual medical experts have their “True, but (supposedly) misleading” opinions suppressed? What about then?

What about when the “request” is actual retaliation, as it was with Schiff’s office vs Paul Sperry?!?

I’m gonna give you some credit here, Masnick, cuz you’re citing an actual court case making an argument rather than going “lol, I don’t see anything here in these very incriminating documents” or talking about random gossip about Musk. But this ruling is manifest bunk and you give it far too much credence (almost fawning, really).

Like I said the good news is that SCOTUS is almost guaranteed to take it up and overturn it and then it will be a precedent nation-wide.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

What about when the “request” is actual retaliation, as it was with Schiff’s office vs Paul Sperry?!?

Unless you can prove that Schiff’s office coerced Twitter to take action on Sperry’s account, the suggestion could’ve always been ignored by Twitter.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

Unless you can prove that Schiff’s office coerced Twitter to take action on Sperry’s account, the suggestion could’ve always been ignored by Twitter.

I have actually shown you that proof, and you ignored it, so I’m inclined not to bother again. Keep in mind Schiff’s committee was also making noises about investigating Twitter around then. (not that that would be required to make it an implicit threat)

And it wasn’t ignored, Sperry was banned, with no rational suggested nor found since. But apparently success rates, even if 98%, according to Masnick and the Ninth circuit.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Twitter has the right to ban the dude for damn near any reason it wants.

I think we’ve established you don’t believe that. If they banned all support of gay marriage (which was an actual political debate just like 10 years ago?) you would reverse all your positions instantly.

Now, I DO believe that…but I also think it would be very bad of them, and quite illegal for government to direct it.

show me that the dude was banned specifically as part of a coercive order from the government

I did.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Here’s the thing… If twitter suddenly decided that, people would be angry at Twitter for their own actions. We would not be channeling that anger though the government to force them to keep it up.

How do we know? Because that was a major part of the collateral damage that happened when Tumblr instated a policy banning NSFW content in 2018… A lot of content that wasn’t NSFW got swept up in it, and a disproportionate amount of that content was LGBT related.

You wanna know what people did? They moved to Twitter!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

And ironically, the release of the Twitter files showed that Twitter employees did indeed ignore some of the flagged posts and didn’t just ban everyone. They demonstrated that they didn’t consider the government contact to be a form of coercion and there was no retaliation from the government for them not banning all the accounts.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

So fucking what? They also said that they felt they couldn’t ignore the gov requests anymore

I think that statement is laughably untrue on it’s face. OF COURSE a 98% success rate means they have ceded over control of their censorship to a state agency.

But this is funny for another reason, because you (and others) routinely cite a 40% rate as evidence that Twitter was not conducting gov censorship by proxy, to which my question is “At what part does it become government censorship, then?” The answer is apparently “never” because even 98% doesn’t qualify. Why bring it up, then? Why pretend the success rate is a rebuttal when according to you (and some activist judges) no rate would ever make it censorship by proxy?

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

My word, a direct source given without any tantrums. I’m proud of you, Matthew!

Too bad it still just proves that you’re full of shit.

For one thing, he doesn’t say that it feels like they can’t/couldn’t ignore government requests anymore.

For another, even if “the window is closing” means what Matt Taibbi claims that it means, the staffer says “I think”, meaning it’s not even a certainty.

If you read the highlighted bit in context of the entire email, it just sounds like the staffer is saying that the window for gathering more evidence is closing.

As usual, a complete nothing-burger.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

If he actually said that it would be silly. There’s is very little difference in the reverse rate of the difference circuits. The 9th Circuit has more cases granted cert because it’s massive (way way way bigger than any other circuit), and its reversal rate is within the same range as… every other circuit. The most reversed circuit lately has been the 6th, which is considered very conservative. The idea that the 9th is regularly reverse or that you can ignore rulings from the 9th is, well, generally a sign of someone who is not at all serious.

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HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

A source for your comparisons would’ve been nice. According to Ballotpedia, the Supreme Court reversed the Ninth Circuit 80.4% of time and the Sixth Circuit 81.5% from 2007 until 2022 inclusive – no meaningful difference between just those two. On average the reversal rate was 71.4%.

I don’t know how conservative or liberal the Circuit Courts are, so I’m not gonna say anything about that yet.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I’m not complaining about anything. I repeated the joke I saw on Volokh about the Supreme Court having a special section for reversing the Ninth. Then I found a NYT article that says that the Ninth got reversed a lot. I think Ballotpedia also says that SCOTUS granted cert to twelve Ninth cases in 2021 and reversed all of them.

You get a reputation, you’ll get jokes about it. Will Smith is going to be known for that slap forever even though he only did it once.

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HotHead (profile) says:

Re:

I think that statement is laughably untrue on it’s face. OF COURSE a 98% success rate means they have ceded over control of their censorship to a state agency.

But this is funny for another reason, because you (and others) routinely cite a 40% rate as evidence that Twitter was not conducting gov censorship by proxy, to which my question is “At what part does it become government censorship, then?” The answer is apparently “never” because even 98% doesn’t qualify. Why bring it up, then? Why pretend the success rate is a rebuttal when according to you (and some activist judges) no rate would ever make it censorship by proxy?

The percentage alone doesn’t make anything censorship. The evidence behind why the figure is 98% does. 98% is a warning to look for more evidence. The court examined the evidence that Rogan O’Handley brought to the table and made a decision based on that evidence. You’ll have to wait for a circuit split and maybe a Supreme Court decision if you think that your speculation is correct.

The next thing you said (emphasis mine):

Of course I believe the direct opposite: Even if Twitter NEVER listened it would still be infringement because a government agency tried to pressure (the FBI does not merely “request”) Twitter into suppressing the speech of US citizens.

That’s fine. You still have to show us evidence of pressure – coercion or intimidation. As Mike pointed out, correlation isn’t sufficient.

What about when the “request” is actual retaliation, as it was with Schiff’s office vs Paul Sperry?

Retaliation to Sperry it may be, in which case Schiff’s office would be in the wrong. And for a government retaliation case, Sperry must sue a government figure/agency instead of Twitter. Schiff’s office’s actions had nothing to so with Twitter unless the government pressured Twitter. Twitter could ban someone for any reason or for no reason as long as there were no government pressure involved.

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Violet Aubergine (profile) says:

You people are using the wrong Constitution when deciding these things. The UK secretly bought the US Constitution in 1811 and stripped out the parts they didn’t like but made doing so a federal secret that only freed citizens going by the appropriate designation via deploying the secret coding like Violet of the House Aubergine that legally allows them to learn the real true facts. Once you know these things you can’t unknow them–kind of like a precog Donald Rumsfeld–but nobody will believe you because they can’t legally know the truth!1!!!! All the worlds politicians are in on it, they get inducted into the secret society and given access to designer drugs and free money. It’s so sad seeing all these people who think they know what is going on when they need to not only take the blue bill, they also need to take the purple one, the yellow one and also, if you can get your hands on it, the chartreuse one.

And of course it’s censorship! That one genius on the net with both a blog and a podcast says so so it has to be true because nobody on the internet has ever made shit up to make a point. Who would be so insecure as to make up stuff to win an argument with a complete stranger?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Very homophobic of you, Stephen.

I love it when people say shit like this as if it’s a gotcha. They witnessed a homophobic person getting called out for actual homophobia and they thought it was some magical phrase they could use to attack others, but they just prove they didn’t understand how the term was actually used.

Citing a verified liar who may also happen to be gay isn’t homophobia. But abusing that attack when it’s not warranted and no homophobia is present is actually you attempting to use homophobia for your benefit.

Quid rides? Mutato nomine et de te fabula narrator.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:2

actual homophobia

No idea what you’re referring to, but also I didn’t care much.

I love it when people say shit like this as if it’s a gotcha.

It’s ironic. Cuz Stephen (and all liberals as far as I can tell) are super fucking eager to label everyone who disagrees with them as some form of bigot. Like you can’t critize the insane shit Ilhan Omar says without being called Islamaphobic, etc.

some magical phrase they could use to attack others

Yeah, like that. That’s literally how you guys treat it.

So yeah, I’m allowed to joke about Stephen being homophobic.

But abusing that attack when it’s not warranted and no homophobia is present is actually you attempting to use homophobia for your benefit.

There it is. I knew you’d get there eventually.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Cuz Stephen (and all liberals as far as I can tell) are super fucking eager to label everyone who disagrees with them as some form of bigot.

And this is exactly what I was referring to. You don’t understand how words are used so you think it’s just petty name-calling. Except the words being used have meanings and the labels being applied are actually saying something.

It’s not that everyone that a person disagrees with is a bigot. I disagree with Mike sometimes here and I’ll say so, but he’s not a bigot as far as I have ever seen. But a lot of people do disagree with people who are bigots and it’s fine to call a bigot a bigot. You’re just admitting you don’t understand what bigotry is.

So yeah, I’m allowed to joke about Stephen being homophobic.

As far as freedom of speech is concerned, sure. You can even be a bigot if you like. But you’re falsely accusing others of what you’re actually doing and trying to use that false accusation as a post hoc justification for your bad faith argument.

There it is. I knew you’d get there eventually.

Sadly, I don’t think that you ever will get anywhere. You haven’t shown a single ounce of an ability to consider you might be wrong. You’re the embodiment of the backfire effect.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Cuz Stephen (and all liberals as far as I can tell) are super fucking eager to label everyone who disagrees with them as some form of bigot. Like you can’t critize the insane shit Ilhan Omar says without being called Islamaphobic, etc.

Speaking for myself here, but I’m a liberal, and I rarely call people bigots. I might say that they said something that is (or at least appears to be) bigoted or that they appear (or come across as) bigoted, but even then, I’m less eager to even do that much than, say, Stephen is. I give people a lot more room to say stuff like that before calling them bigots or anything like that. I don’t think I’ve called you a bigot, for example.

Honestly, the only ones I called bigoted in recent memory here (recent as in the past couple of years) were ROGS (who seems quite proud of his ableism) and Hyman (who has also said a lot of ableist stuff as well as even more transphobic stuff, though I’ve called him ableist a lot more than I every called him transphobic simply because his language is actually more tempered on transgender issues (likely unintentionally, as he still complains about “woke censorship” of things that not even “woke ideologues” disagree with), while he has explicitly stated that people with mental disorders should be kept out of standard classrooms and/or kept in mental institutions and doesn’t understand a lot of really basic stuff about mental disorders and psychology), and those were only after a long time of letting them say quite a bit I disagreed with without ever calling them bigots. I don’t think I’ve ever called you a bigot, nor have I called a lot of other people I disagree with “bigots”, like TP. I just don’t find it all that helpful.

Then again, knowing you, you probably won’t even bother to read this, so you could probably still say that all liberals do that (as far as you can tell) without technically lying.

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That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

Still waiting for evidence…
Maybe you can find a little time inbetween jumping to conclusions.

What is proven here is, if you point out a violation of the rules they look and if you violated rules you get punished.
A trusted flagger is just someone who doesn’t scream at every little thing & helps the system out by speeding up the detection and review of what they think are violations.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

To argue that the government can’t tell a private business when they think someone is violating the rules is like saying that anyone who works for a city should be barred from telling a grocery store staff member when they see one customer harassing another because that would ‘censor’ the harasser’s speech should they be told to stop and/or leave.

Unless it comes with a threat, whether explicit or implied it’s just them telling the business what they see and letting the business choose what to do with that information, and while government actors are limited in what they can say/do thanks to the first amendment it’s not like it’s a total ban on anything speech related.

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Benjamin Jay Barber says:

Mike Masnik is a coward

The government carries both the carrot and the stick,

How many times did we hear congress threaten tech executives with fines / regulations, if they don’t censor more speech, in front of the us congress. Meanwhile they have tried to regulate tiktok out of business entirely.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

How many times did we hear congress threaten tech executives with fines / regulations, if they don’t censor more speech, in front of the us congress.

To the extent that has evidently happened (like in statements made by Elizabeth Warren, Adam Schiff, and Amy Klobuchar), Techdirt has consistently criticized them for that. (Though, none of those incidents are exactly like what you describe, but I’m unaware of anything exactly like that actually happening.)

Meanwhile they have tried to regulate tiktok out of business entirely.

Which Techdirt has consistently criticized as unconstitutional and ill-considered.

Seriously, I’m failing to see any cowardice here.

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