Stop Trying To Make State Action Doctrine Happen

from the non-state-action dept

I’ve spent many years criticizing government officials and politicians of both parties for threatening retaliation against individuals and companies for their speech. But there are some pretty clear lines of what counts as actual 1st Amendment violations in retaliating over speech, and what is just government folks mouthing off and expressing their own opinion. To be clear, I think government officials should mostly shut the fuck up, instead of trying to influence websites on how to moderate, but there’s a pretty big distance between unwise mouthing off and reaching the level where it becomes a state action issue.

The state action doctrine is not just that “government folks got mad, and some private actor took action,” but rather you have to show the government was actually responsible for the action, and not the private actor. Basically, the state needs to have fully compelled the action at issue, and usually that has to have included a very clear threat of government action against the private actor if they don’t take the steps desired.

Unfortunately, a bunch of bad faith actors have been pushing the ridiculous claim that government officials merely stating an opinion on certain content, then magically turns anyone who takes action on that same content into a state actor. This is silly. Two of the leading proponents of this nonsense theory are disgraced Yale Professor Jed Rubenfeld and some biotech exec who appears to be trying to grift off “anti-woke” sentiment, Vivek Ramaswamy.

A year and a half ago, they declared that because some people in Congress were saying that websites should moderate more content, that turned social media into state actors. It was an obviously nonsense claim. Rubenfeld, apparently with more time on his hands than common sense, then tried to use that argument to help anti-vaxxer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. win a case against Facebook. That failed as the court (rightfully) tossed the case and made it clear that just because some people in the government say something, and then a social media site takes action, it doesn’t magically turn the social media companies into state actors.

And, it should be obvious why that’s the right decision. If someone in government merely mused about “this content is problematic” and then as soon as any site took action it became a state actor, effectively any bad faith government official could block the 1st Amendment association and editorial rights of any website. Just get anyone in Congress to express their opinion that “so-and-so shouldn’t be on social media” and then — according to this nonsense theory — that person can never, ever be moderated.

That’s not how any of this works.

Anyway. Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy are back again — again in the pages of the WSJ Opinion section, because that’s the only place that will take them — to argue vindication, and that Twitter has become “a tool of government censorship.” The whole thing is based on bullshit from a bullshit artist.

You may recall that the “pandemic’s wrongest mansued Twitter over its decision to remove him from the site. Berenson was very, very sure that his case was incredibly strong. He was wrong. The judge tossed out nearly all of it, including every free speech claim, and left just a tiny portion to move forward hinting very strongly that, after discovery, the remaining tiny bit, exploring the possibility of promissory estoppel (i.e., did Twitter somehow “promise” Berenson he wouldn’t be kicked), he was ready to toss the rest.

Of course, discovery is expensive, distracting and time consuming. And Twitter’s lawyers are kinda busy on other matters, so it made sense that the company came to a settlement with Berenson that allowed him back on the site. This caused some people to highlight that Berenson had promised never to settle the case and to expose the deep dark secrets of Twitter’s moderation practices.

The latest is that Berenson revealed some internal Slack chats that he had obtained, showing Twitter employees recounting a meeting they had with White House officials asking why Berenson wasn’t banned from Twitter. Berenson presented this as proof that the White House “demanded Twitter ban me.”

Alex insists he’s now going to sue the White House, and dude, knock yourself out. As we’ve said, the government really should shut the fuck up in telling websites how to moderate, and that includes this. But I think it’s highly, highly unlikely that any court would find this reaching the level of actual 1st Amendment violation — but, hey, if he can set a precedent that government officials should stop trying to pressure companies about their editorial decisions, more power to him.

However, none of this makes Twitter “a state actor.” First, none of the revealed messages indicate actual “demands” or any other kind of threat of retaliation. All it shows is that White House officials asked why Berenson, elite spewer of misinformation, hadn’t violated Twitter’s policies. And asking questions like that is not a violation of anyone’s rights.

Second, as Berenson himself admits, this conversation happened “months before the company” actually did ban him. So, if you’re looking to show that the White House ordered it and Twitter complied, the timeline creates a pretty big problem for that.

Of course, idiots on Twitter have gone nuts over this, taking Berenson’s extremely misleading framing of this, and repeating over and over again that the White House “ordered” him to be blocked. Most of the media has been more circumspect, either not reporting on this non-story at all, or noting “Berenson claims” or (more accurately) “White House asked why…”

But, the Wall Street Journal editorial pages have no standards for accuracy or truth or anything. They’re basically the pure id of Rupert Murdoch’s fever dreams. So when Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy want to argue that this story proves Twitter is a state actor, the WSJ is more than happy to oblige. It’s all nonsense, though.

Facts that Mr. Berenson unearthed through the discovery process confirm that the administration has been secretly asking social-media companies to shut down the accounts of specific prominent critics of administration policy.

Except they weren’t asking them to shut down the accounts. They were asking why the companies didn’t consider Berenson to have violated its terms. Which is a legitimate question.

Last Friday Mr. Berenson published conversations from an internal Twitter Slack channel. Referring to an April 2021 meeting with White House officials, one Twitter employee noted that the meeting overall was “pretty good,” but added that the White House “had one really tough question about why Alex Berenson hasn’t been kicked off from the platform.”

Another employee asked: “Any high level takeaways from the meeting? Anything we should keep an eye out for?”

The first employee responded: “Yes, they really wanted to know about Alex Berenson.” The employee wrote that Andy Slavitt, then a senior White House Covid adviser, “suggested they had seen data viz that had showed he was the epicenter of disinfo that radiated outwards to the persuadable public.” (“Viz” probably stands for “visualization” and “disinfo” for “disinformation.”)

Again, literally all that shows is the White House asking about it. And, as Berenson’s buddy, Tucker Carlson, let’s us know all the time, “what’s wrong with just asking questions?” Again, none of this turns Twitter into a state actor.

Remember that this meeting happened many months before Twitter said Berenson violated its rules.

Private companies taking into account factual information provided by the government that shows users violated company policy does not make you into a state actor. Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy also point to actions taken by Facebook to remove disinfo as more proof — and again, all it shows is proof that the companies have their own policies and sometimes take action on them.

Recent Freedom of Information Act disclosures show that a week later, on July 23, 2021, Nick Clegg—a former U.K. deputy prime minister and now Facebook parent Meta’s president for global affairs—emailed Dr. Murthy to thank him for meeting with Facebook and to report on “the steps we took just this past week” to “further address the ‘disinfo dozen’: we removed 17 additional Pages, Groups, and Instagram accounts tied to the ‘disinfo dozen’ . . . resulting in every member . . . having had at least one such entity removed.” He added that Facebook was “continuing to make 4 other Pages and Profiles, which have not yet met their removal thresholds, more difficult to find on our platform.”

That’s a company taking actions based on its policies. It’s not evidence of state action.

Again, under the rules that Rubenfeld wants, if any government official ever calls out someone for disinformation, he seems to believe no website can ever take action against that person, no matter how frequently or how egregiously they break the rules.

That’s… disconnected from reality. It’s so disconnected from reality, Yale students taught by Rubenfeld should maybe consider demanding a refund.

When the government exploits these legislative inducements to target specific critics for censorship, it has crossed a constitutional Rubicon. Targeting, punishing and silencing dissenters is the paradigmatic First Amendment violation. The Biden administration is using Big Tech as its private censorship arm, and that violates what the Supreme Court, in Norwood v. Harrison (1973), called an “axiomatic” principle: The government “may not induce, encourage or promote private persons to accomplish what it is constitutionally forbidden to accomplish.”

Except… there were no legislative inducements going on here. This is just silly. The government asked “why didn’t these actions violate your policies” and the companies then looked to see if they did. That’s not what Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy are claiming.

Democracy depends on free and open debate. If government officials continue to deputize private companies to stifle dissenters, it’s high time for federal courts to deliver them a reminder: If it’s state action in disguise, the Constitution applies.

Again, I agree that government officials really should shut up on all this — but nothing described so far goes anywhere near the level necessary to be state action. It is not correct to say that the government cannot ask questions or call out what seems like false information.

This entire article further tarnishes whatever is left of Rubenfeld’s tattered reputation. State action doctrine means something. A government official asking “does this content violate your policies”… is not that.

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Comments on “Stop Trying To Make State Action Doctrine Happen”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

authoritarian instincts… of the left?

Have you not looked around lately at which party is the one trying to overturn elections, tell people what can and can’t be taught in schools…?

The right is going full fascist and you’re saying that it’s the left that has authoritarian instincts? Dude, get a grip on reality.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Have you not looked around lately at which party is the one trying to overturn elections,

Are you talking about Democrats occupying capitols to overturn election results they don’t like?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/

tell people what can and can’t be taught in schools…?

Are you suggesting parents should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in what is taught in the classroom? We should allow EVERYTHING from racist CRT to indoctrinating young children into sexual activity?

You’re on the wrong side of history.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No library can hold all books, therefore someone must decide which books will be present and which will not. Public libraries should not censor which books they hold based on the viewpoints of those books. School libraries should hold books that align with the school’s curriculum, since the purpose of school libraries is as an extension of educating the students.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There are only two sexes and genders. If by sexuality you mean preference for the gender of your partner, people can be straight, gay, or bisexual, so count that as you like.

When teaching about sex and gender, the curriculum should reflect that some people believe otherwise – that you can be a sex different from your body, or that it is wrong to have same-sex partners. Any sex-ed class worthy of the name is going to be teaching that the subject is fraught and controversial, with religion, culture and politics all playing a role in what people believe are right and wrong.

The only two problem with school libraries is that YA fiction authors have taken to including trans characters who are treated as the sex they wish they were, giving a very one-sided and wrong view of what it means to try to be trans

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

When teaching about sex and gender, the curriculum should reflect that some people believe otherwise – that you can be a sex different from your body, or that it is wrong to have same-sex partners.

For what reason should any sex-ed course worth a good god’s damn teach anyone that some people believe being gay or trans is a direct course to Hell because God doesn’t love queers?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I have three questions. Yes or no answers only, please; I know you’ll ramble on with your TERF-scripted bullshit if you’re not limited to that simple dichotomy.

  1. Should public schools teach, as a certifiable fact instead of merely an opinion, the notion that all queer people are going to Hell for existing as queer?
  2. Should public schools single out queer students for that instruction, as if a queer student needs to change themselves for the sake of comforting the ignorance of bigots and bullies like you?
  3. Do you believe queer people, regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation, deserve to live openly without being shamed, assaulted, or killed for being who they are? (This is the question you’ll have the hardest time answering, because it requires you to think of trans people as people instead of things. That’s why I saved it for last.)
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It’s complicated because everything you’ve said and everyone you’ve sided with in re: what your allies would call “the transgender question” suggests that every one of those answers is wrong. You’ve gone out of your way to demean, diminish, and flat-out dismiss trans lives as little more than people being delusional⁠—and that’s the softest take you’ve had on the matter.

You’ve pushed your anti-trans agenda so hard these past few months that trying to yank back on it now comes off as a wholly insincere cover-my-ass moment. You might think you’re telling the truth here, but I can prove you’re not by altering all three questions in a small way. Again, yes or no to all of them:

  • Should public schools teach, as a certifiable fact instead of merely an opinion, the notion that all transgender people are going to Hell for existing as transgender?
  • Should public schools single out transgender students for that instruction, as if a trangender student needs to change themselves for the sake of comforting the ignorance of bigots and bullies like you?
  • Do you believe transgender people, regardless of their gender identity, deserve to live openly without being shamed, assaulted, or killed for being who they are? (Again: This is the question you’ll probably have the hardest time answering, because it requires you to think of trans people as people instead of things.)

Now you’re not thinking about gay, bi, and asexual people in addition to trans people⁠—now you’re thinking specifically about a demographic you’ve spent months trying to paint as delusional sociopaths at best and a threat to the natural order of all existence at worst.

If you’re trying to make anyone here think you’re not the TERF-supporting shitbag we can all see you are, you’re failing.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

No. Hell does not exist, and there is no life after death.

No. Schools should be teaching knowledge, not trying to get people to change their beliefs.

Yes. Everyone should be able to live by their professed beliefs regardless of what other people may think of them.

As usual, you cannot, or will not, understand the difference between someone living their own life according to their belief, and forcing other people to affirm those beliefs.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No. Hell does not exist, and there is no life after death.

FYI: Being an atheist won’t stop the TERFs from turning on you when you stop being a useful idiot to them.

No. Schools should be teaching knowledge, not trying to get people to change their beliefs.

And yet, you seem to have no problem with schools teaching the opinion that trans people are fundamentally “broken” alongside the knowledge that trans people exist. Curious. 🤔

Yes. Everyone should be able to live by their professed beliefs regardless of what other people may think of them.

If it weren’t for the fact that you support and lift rhetoric from a bunch of bigoted dickheads who think trans people shouldn’t have the right⁠—legal or moral⁠—to openly live as transgender, I’d almost think you give a shit about the humanity of trans people.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I don’t care who “turns on me”. Aside from the fact that I’m a nobody and no one cares what I say, I don’t care what other people think about me. My opinions are my opinions no matter what.

Public schools should be teaching that gender ideology is controversial, with (according to a recent Pew poll) 60% of Americans believing that people’s sex is the one they have noted at birth. It’s fine for them not to take sides. It’s not fine for them to actively teach lies.

Among the people whose opinion of me I don’t care about, you are included. But you are not entirely wrong; I often find myself disliking people who share some of my opinions because I find some of their other beliefs repugnant. C’est la vie.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Public schools should be teaching that gender ideology is controversial, with (according to a recent Pew poll) 60% of Americans believing that people’s sex is the one they have noted at birth.

[citation needed] I’m pretty sure that either you are misstating the question asked or that the percent was much higher given that virtually no one is saying that one’s sex can differ from what it was at birth.

No wait… Actually, I’m now noticing that that you said the sex that they have noted at birth. In that case, 60% of Americans are simply wrong. There are documented cases where a doctor has examined an intersex baby and misidentified their sex. This isn’t even a political opinion; it’s simply and objectively false that people’s sex are necessarily what was noted at birth.

Either way, this has nothing to do with gender identity or what is claimed by transgender people or pro-transgender activists unless you are severely misquoting Pew’s survey question. Now, I could believe that 60% of Americans believe that one’s gender is the sex that was there at birth, that the vast majority of Americans (accurately) believe that one’s physiological sex is the same as at birth in most meaningful senses, or that most Americans (falsely) believe that one’s sex is always the one that was noted at birth, but only the first one is relevant to issues about gender identity.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Then you must challenge every trans person’s identity and existence, given that⁠—in your own words and under every bit of anti-trans logic you’ve ever posted on this site⁠—their asking you to use their preferred name and pronouns is an attempt to force their pro-trans beliefs on you.

You could just say nothing, but you’ve gone out of your way to state that you won’t⁠—that you’ll tell a trans person they’re wrong (your words, not mine) if they say they’re trans. Remember: You’re the one trying to force a belief system down someone’s throat. Trans people just want to exist without having their basic humanity dismissed because you’re a right-wing pervert who’s obsessed with their genitals.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

No. Changed names are fine. There is nothing intrinsic about a name, and people should be called whatever they like. Pronouns are borderline. Because they are so tied to sex, using the wrong pronouns for someone can have deeper implications. For me, it’s fine to use preferred pronouns out of politeness, but it’s not fine if those pronouns are meant to be an affirmation that the person is the sex they want to be, not the sex they are. It’s going to be situational.

Now, we have stories like this: https://bleedingcool.com/tv/she-hulk-star-jameela-jamil-faces-backlash-over-misgendering-response/
The more people are attacked for “misgendering”, the more use of preferred pronouns should be resisted, because the balance becomes shifted over to forcing people to affirm false beliefs rather than being polite. (There is no such thing as a “non-binary” person anyway.)

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Pronouns are borderline. Because they are so tied to sex, using the wrong pronouns for someone can have deeper implications. For me, it’s fine to use preferred pronouns out of politeness, but it’s not fine if those pronouns are meant to be an affirmation that the person is the sex they want to be, not the sex they are. It’s going to be situational.

Then just use “they”/“them”. No one is offended by that, and it has no implication about gender or sex.

The more people are attacked for “misgendering”, the more use of preferred pronouns should be resisted, because the balance becomes shifted over to forcing people to affirm false beliefs rather than being polite.

  1. You still haven’t given an example of a belief actually held by transgender or non-binary people that is actually, demonstrably false. The only ones you’ve alleged are either entirely opinions and cannot be proven or disproven (a belief that their gender identity differs from their physiological sex), backed up by scientific research and expert consensus (belief that gender identity is a real thing with a biological backing), not something actually claimed by transgender people to begin with (a belief that men could become women or vice versa), or some combination of the above (that gender and sex are two different things). Even if you don’t agree with one or more of the aforementioned beliefs, there is no objective indication that any of their actual beliefs are false, and you have not demonstrated them to be such.
  2. Using someone’s preferred pronouns is being polite even if it makes you uncomfortable and even if you think it goes too far. This is also true even if you are being forced to do so. While I would disagree with the idea that being condemned for misgendering someone intentionally (outside of very specific circumstances) is going too far, and I don’t think this is one of those cases, it is possible for politeness to not necessarily be the right thing to do or to go too far.
  3. As mentioned, there are ways to not “affirm false beliefs”, as you put it, without misgendering someone.

(There is no such thing as a “non-binary” person anyway.)

  1. Yes, there absolutely is. A non-binary person is simply someone who doesn’t identify as a man or a woman. Even if you don’t believe that their identities are legitimate or that they are delusional, they still exist. It is also irrelevant if you believe that gender is binary.
  2. Even physiological sex isn’t truly binary; it’s bimodal. Binary sex means that there is absolutely no intersection between the two sexes and that there are no exceptions. The mere fact that intersex people exist disproves that much.
melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Has it occurred to you that by restricting libraries to books “align[ed] with the school’s curriculum” — and I remind you that the state department of education, a political entity, sets the curriculum (as my home state Florida has so vividly demonstrated in recent months) — you’re simply sneaking ideology in through the back door?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Public school curriculum is the speech of the government, and the government is allowed to speak as it wishes. They’re is no 1st Amendment obligation for public schools to teach views contrary to the curriculum, nor to allow teachers to speak those views in the classroom, since teachers are government employees speaking for the government while on the job.

It would be better for free speech if teachers were allowed to speak their minds, as long as all sides were able to do so, including those who wanted to speak about their own religious beliefs, or were opposed to the various ideologies that other teachers supported.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It is the job of the state to set the curriculum for its public schools. Ideology cannot help but be imposed when schools have to teach issues that are controversial and have substantial support for both sides. Ideally, they would be teaching the controversy, but in practice, whichever party is in control seeks to teach only its version of what it believes.

melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Your argument has dramatically shifted. First it was “libraries can only hold so many books”; now it’s “ideology is always present in education, so it’s okay when it’s my ideology being forced upon students.”

If you want queer people to disappear, just say so. You’ve come pretty close elsewhere in this thread.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Libraries can only hold so many books and the state sets the curriculum for public schools. These two statements are not contradictory. It is up to the people of the state to decide what is taught, by electing the people in charge, and then perhaps filing lawsuits if they feel constitutional provisions are being violated. Inevitably, some people will feel that tournament ideologies are being imposed on their children, and then they will have to decide whether to keep their children in the public schools or send them elsewhere. Florida says don’t say gay. New York says don’t say boy’s penis.

Meanwhile, school libraries exist to further the education of the students. Why would you not expect their books to align with the curriculum?

I do not want queer people to disappear, but I absolutely refuse to allow queer theorists to force people to affirm their beliefs about themselves.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Meanwhile, school libraries exist to further the education of the students. Why would you not expect their books to align with the curriculum?

Because, in part, they are their to extend the resources available to students beyond what is taught in the curriculum. You only limit students to a curriculum if you are trying to indoctrinate into a religious or political cult..

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

school libraries exist to further the education of the students

Some schools might believe letting students expose themselves to stories about people who aren’t like them (e.g., white kids reading stories about Black people, straight kids reading stories about queer people) will teach students empathy, which can help lessen strife between students.

Some schools seem to believe denying students such an experience is a better approach, given how the books most often targeted under conservative-led book bans are written by/about/for non-white/non-cishet people.

Given your opposition to CRT, teaching facts about racism, and queer people being allowed to exist openly in society without your permission? I can tell which one you think is the superior approach.

I do not want queer people to disappear, but I absolutely refuse to allow queer theorists to force people to affirm their beliefs about themselves.

“Wanting queer people to shut up and go away forever is a 100% totally different thing than wanting them to die and go away forever.” — your mindset, probably

Don’t you ever get tired of all the hate? Aren’t you tired of living in fear of other people’s genitals?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Calling disagreement hate is par for the course for ideologues who want to silence dissent.

“Books written for non-white … people” is one of the wrong things about woke race ideology. Books are books. Books on any subject may be written by anyone and read by anyone. It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art, like Dana Schutz and Jeanine Cummins.

I do not want queer people to shut up and go away, any more than I want Christians to shut up and go away. Refusing to affirm someone’s wrong ideology is not the same as silencing them, although I can see why you would think so, since that’s what left-wing cancel culture is about. Queer people can speak their mind and make their claims all they want. So can people who tell them they’re wrong

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Books written for non-white … people” is one of the wrong things about woke race ideology.

Of course you have a problem with Black people writing books they intended to write for a largely Black audience.

Books on any subject may be written by anyone and read by anyone.

I’m well aware. But there’s a big difference between a white author and a Black author writing a book about Black characters, and you’re too afraid to say so because then you’d have to admit to a lot of other things about race that frighten the fuck out of you to even think about admitting.

It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art

And the people deciding that books by and about people of color are the ones that need to be yanked from school and public libraries⁠—are they not race ideologues, or do you not give a fuck about them because they’re whi—sorry, right?

I do not want queer people to shut up and go away

The exterminationist rhetoric you lifted from TERFs says otherwise, but go off, you wannabe federal genital inspector.

any more than I want Christians to shut up and go away

Well of course you don’t want them to go away⁠—conservative Christians are, by and large, on the same side of the…oh, what would you call it…the “trans debate” as you are. They’re just more open about wanting to see trans people gone (one way or another) than you are, you coward.

Refusing to affirm someone’s wrong ideology is not the same as silencing them, although I can see why you would think so

Your refusal to treat trans people as people isn’t what silences them. It’s your refusal to leave them be in peace⁠—your desire to govern and micromanage their lives so they won’t ever make you or your TERF allies uncomfortable with ever having to think about gender spectrums and shifting gender roles and all the shit that you think needs to be upheld to restore “order” in a chaotic world. When I talk of exterminationist rhetoric, that’s what I mean: You want to harass trans people out of the public eye and harangue them into either the closet or the grave.

You don’t have to like trans people. You don’t even have to “affirm their ideology” (i.e., treat them with some semblance of dignity). But you’re talking about trans people like they need to be stopped⁠—one way or another⁠—from “transing kids” or some other “they’re evil” bullshit when trans people only ever want people like you and your TERF allies to leave them the fuck alone.

Queer people can speak their mind and make their claims all they want. So can people who tell them they’re wrong

The fact that you think you can disagree with people daring to exist as queer says everything that needs to be said about you and your ideology.

None of it is good.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art,

Well that makes Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbot leaders of ‘Woke’ political parties, as they are the ones leading the charge on removing books by people in the LGBT and Black communities.

You have bought into the ideology of those who would tutn the US into a fascist state, are you hoping to be wearing the Jackboot, rather than being trampled on by them.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Republicans are filth.

Libraries should not be removing books based on their viewpoints. But books aimed at young people that are about controversial topics have always been the target of removal efforts, and the left providing the right with a poster child target of a graphic novel for teens with illustrations of queer oral sex is a special own goal.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

And yet, you support the eradication of “woke race ideology” and “woke gender ideology”, as do many right-wingers⁠—including the politicians, protestors, and trained operatives who are in favor of, and carrying out, book bans across the country that target books written by, for, and about people of color/queer people. Curious. 🤔

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Books in School libraries are not limited to the curriculum, but include many more reference works and fiction books than a school could include in a curriculum. So stop trying to equate in the Library as taught as part of the curriculum.

Books should not be banned except when part of a school library is finding excuses to ban books while pretending you are against such bans.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Would you be OK if the school libraries carried both Gender Queer and Irreversible Damage? That would be fine with me.

Would you be OK if they carried the one you hate and not the one you like?

It’s not that school libraries must not carry books that contradict the curriculum or reality, just that it’s OK if they don’t.

If a school library has a book that points out as a historical fact that several of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, would that “contradict the curriculum or reality”?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

If, as in New York, woke gender ideology was the policy of the school curriculum, I would not be surprised if school libraries chose to stock Gender Queer but not Irreversible Damage. They would have the right to do so, but since I believe that woke gender ideology is a lie, I would hope that such a choice would be publicized and protested, so that criticism would drive the schools away from those teachings.

It does not contradict reality to say that the Founders owned slaves. I would hope it would not contradict the curriculum either, since schools should be teaching the truth.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

If, as in New York, woke gender ideology was the policy of the school curriculum

[citation needed]

since I believe that woke gender ideology is a lie, I would hope that such a choice would be publicized and protested, so that criticism would drive the schools away from those teachings

Would you prefer schools teach⁠ that all gay people are filthy subhuman child molesters, the existence of trans people is a myth that needs to be “stomped out” (figuratively or literally), and cishets are the only people made in God’s righteous image and thus the only people worth treating like people instead of things? All your shit makes you sound like the goddamn Christian nationalists trying to ban books from libraries with the intent of later burning those books (or maybe even those libraries…and possibly even the librarians).

It does not contradict reality to say that the Founders owned slaves. I would hope it would not contradict the curriculum either, since schools should be teaching the truth.

And yet, damn near every time someone brings up that fact in these comments, you accuse them of being “woke race ideologists” who are out to oppress white people and whatever else you think you can make stick when you throw it at the wall. Curious. 🤔

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I have several times pointed to the New York State document that says that teachers should not refer to a “boy’s penis”, just a “penis”. Only boys have a penis, unless your curriculum is woke gender ideology.
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I would teach that some men believe that they are women and vice versa and choose to adopt dress and behavior stereotypical of the gender they believe they are. Other people believe that this is a delusion. This is part of a huge cultural battle going on. As good citizens of a free country, we should respect the beliefs of people who disagree with us, but not allow demands for respect to be treated as demands to change our beliefs or behavior. Gender beliefs should be treated like religious beliefs.

I would also teach that it is impossible, given our level of technology, to physically change people’s sex, and attempts to do so through medication and surgery may lead to damaged bodies that are impossible to restore.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

I have several times pointed to the New York State document that says that teachers should not refer to a “boy’s penis”, just a “penis”. Only boys have a penis, unless your curriculum is woke gender ideology.

If only boys have a penis, as you insist, for what reason does any instruction on the anatomy of the human body need to mention the sex of the person to whom the penis belongs? If anything, the prior version of the teaching was arguably closer to whatever your idea of “woke gender ideology” is than the new version, since the old version could be read to imply that a girl can have a penis.

Gender beliefs should be treated like religious beliefs.

One gender should be declared superior above all others by people of that gender who have both large amounts of sociopolitical power and longstanding cultural privilege? I mean, replace “gender” with “religion” and you’ve got Christian nationalists, my semi-fascist.

Also: You don’t have to accept “trans ideology” any more than you have to accept someone else’s religious beliefs, but you could at least try to hide your open and deeply-held contempt for trans people.

I would also teach that it is impossible, given our level of technology, to physically change people’s sex, and attempts to do so through medication and surgery may lead to damaged bodies that are impossible to restore.

And what will you teach after that⁠? Will you teach that trans people are irrevocably broken by virtue of their existence and need a treatment that can “fix” them⁠—like, say, a type of “therapy” that can “convert” their fragile minds into the proper cisgender state that the Christian God intended?

Because let’s not act like you don’t know where you’re going with your bullshit. We can all see the direction your rhetoric is headed. You’re just too much of a coward to admit it.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Once again, you are arguing with an imaginary version of me who says what you want him to say. Sad.

Trans people may hold any gender ideology that they like, and should not be coerced into affirming any beliefs. They should, however, extend the same privilege to those who disagree with them. Naturally, as a member of the cancel culture left wing, you would like to refuse to permit that. But you will not get your way.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

Trans people may hold any gender ideology that they like, and should not be coerced into affirming any beliefs. They should, however, extend the same privilege to those who disagree with them.

You’re allowed to believe whatever the fuck you want about trans people. What you’re not allowed to do is use your beliefs to justify treating trans people like things to be discarded because they’re, as you yourself put it, “broken”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

Before discarding broken people or treating them as things, we should try to provide ways for them to mend themselves. For people with gender dysphoria and other associated mental illness, that should include treatment to learn to live comfortably in their bodies or treatment to transition, as they wish, provided that they or their guardians are competent to make such choices.

Discarding broken people should happen when they are living (and defecating) in crazed, drug-addled, drunken states on the streets, and even then, “discarding” should mean shipping them off to a place where they can be housed and fed and bathed without normal people needing to step over them or fear what they might do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Public schools should not teach lies

I wonder if it’s a lie when someone teaches that the Founding Fathers owned slaves, the Constitution didn’t initially free enslaved Black people, and queer people exist. A lot of the book bans and “don’t teach [x]” laws are going after the sorts of things I mentioned.

“The point of public education is to make citizens capable together of living together in a diverse community. If all you’ve gotten is white-washed history and that everybody was a good guy and don’t talk about stuff that makes some people uncomfortable, then the minute you graduate and walk into a community where there are people with different views, and where there are bad things that have persisted since the beginning our country that have gone acknowledged, when you walk into the real world outside of the classroom, you are less capable of participating in democracy.” — Eric Liu

people should be able to write and read whatever books they want

And yet, there are plenty of conservatives who would love to ban (and burn) certain books that they think nobody should read. Predictably, those books end up being ones written by, for, and about people of color/queer people. By supporting their crusades against “woke race ideology” and “woke gender ideology”, you are implicitly supporting their attempts to remove those books from public view and tell people “nobody should get to read this if I think my kids shouldn’t be reading this”.

Where they burn books, soon they will burn people. After all, it’s easy to burn someone if you see them as a inhuman thing instead of a sentient living being. Treating people like things, that’s where it starts…

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

People can be wrong, and when they are, it is up to people who know better to point out that those people are wrong, to prevent their errors from causing damage. It is not mistreating people to point out that they are wrong, and their cries that they are being abused and treated like things because their beliefs are not being affirmed impose no obligation on anyone to stop pointing out their errors.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

It is not mistreating people to point out that they are wrong, and their cries that they are being abused and treated like things because their beliefs are not being affirmed impose no obligation on anyone to stop pointing out their errors.

That is not allowing them to peacefully exist, but rather aggressively attacking them for what they are. Continuously pointing out where you think that are wrong is abusive, and says that you want to force them to change.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Not their existence, their condition. It’s the same thing we tell people with any other mental illness. More to the point, we should not allow ideologues to force people to affirm that such illnesses are not illnesses, while allowing them to believe that for themselves it that’s what they want.

In a society that values freedom of speech and thought, people can hear their most cherished beliefs dismissed as nonsense. That’s the way it should be.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Not their existence, their condition.

SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

You can’t “cure” gender dysphoria any more than you can “cure” someone of being gay or being autistic or having brown skin of any shade. To imply that a trans person is a fundamentally broken person who can only be “fixed” with attempts to “cure” their dysphoria⁠—e.g., the physical and psychological torture known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ”⁠—is some flat-out religious bullshit. It implies both that you know what’s best for that trans person (and all others) and that the only “correct” way for anyone to exist in re: their gender identity is the way you…I mean, God intended (i.e., within the gender binary and according to strict gender roles).

In a society that values freedom of speech and thought, people can hear their most cherished beliefs dismissed as nonsense.

Yeah, and in this society, guess what cherished belief trans people get to hear dismissed as nonsense every day by people like you. (Hint: It’s “I should be able to live without worrying about people trying to harass me into the closet or the grave only because of who I am”.)

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Amazon chooses not to sell When Harry Became Sally, so it’s not as if gender ideologues don’t speak out of both sides of their mouths.

School libraries are extensions of schools, and it’s not unreasonable of them to stock only books that accord with their curriculum. Public schools express the speech of the government, and the government may speak for itself as it chooses.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Amazon chooses not to sell When Harry Became Sally

That doesn’t stop people from being able to find it elsewhere. Ban a book in a school/public library and that book stops being available to someone who might want to check it out. Even if they could buy the book elsewhere, they may have an inability to do so⁠—which is why that book being available in a library would be important for them. But of course you’d rather those books be gone from library shelves⁠—you and your TERF allies think nobody should be able to read them, whereas those who rail against books like When Harry Became Sally have less of a problem with people reading/buying it and more of a problem with the fact that a megacorporation would choose to carry and promote a book that will only ever worsen the existing (and sadly growing) hate for trans people.

Amazon can make whatever decision it wants about selling that book. But every decision has consequences. It ain’t my fault if Amazon execs figured out which set of consequences would have the least impact on its business and chose accordingly.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

School libraries and public libraries are different. Public libraries should never been books based on their viewpoint. School libraries exist to supplement student education, and should select their books accordingly. It will be up to the state to decide whether books that contradict the curriculum will be permitted.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

School libraries exist to supplement student education, and should select their books accordingly.

Yes or no: Should those libraries be penalized if they choose to stock age-appropriate books written by/for/about people of color and queer people?

Keep in mind that saying “yes” will be a tacit admission that the state should control what books students can and can’t read at school based on the complaints of a handful of conservative parents who believe in the pro-ignorance ideology of “if I don’t want my child to read this, nobody’s child should get to read this”. (It’s also a tacit admission that such logic can work both ways, which opens the door for liberal parents to challenge the inclusion of materials such as the Bible. Every coin has two sides, after all.)

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Public and public school libraries are government institutions, and the government may speak for itself any way it wishes. It is meaningless to speak of public libraries being penalized; the government may organize them as it wishes, subject to Constitutional requirements. Government employees, such as public librarians, do not have a 1st Amendment right to speak as they wish as part of their jobs.

The actions of the government are driven by politics. People with varying opinions will communicate with their government officials, protest, sue, and vote in accordance with their beliefs, and the outcome will determine how the government organizes its activities.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

That’s cute, that you didn’t actually answer the question.

It is meaningless to speak of public libraries being penalized

No. It isn’t.

Then again, I doubt you have even one issue with an entire library facing closure by its government for daring to stock books that were written by/for/about queer people. You probably love the idea of people of all ages being unable to access those kinds of books, given how you’re a TERF fascist who wants trans people exterminated.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

The people of that community voted against raising taxes to support the library. That’s called democracy. But of course, left-wing ideologues like you accept democracy only when the vote comes out your way.

Public libraries should stock a wide variety of books and not censor which books they stock based on viewpoint. But public libraries are supported by the taxes of their community, so advocates for libraries must be able to convince enough people in the community to vote in their favor. That will inevitably be subject to politics and the culture war.

Also, you need to see someone about those exterminationist paranoid fantasies you keep writing about.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

The people of that community voted against raising taxes to support the library. That’s called democracy.

And they made a shitty decision and I’m allowed to critique that decision, no matter how much you agree with the idea that libraries should either remove queer-friendly books or shut down forever.

But of course, left-wing ideologues like you accept democracy only when the vote comes out your way.

I accepted the result of the 2016 election. I didn’t like it, but I accepted it. The people refusing to accept democracy seem to be people who voted for/kissed the ass of Donald Trump.

Public libraries should stock a wide variety of books and not censor which books they stock based on viewpoint.

And yet, you’re all in favor of shutting down a library that refuses to remove books fom said library that a minority of people think everyone else shouldn’t get to read. Curious. 🤔

But public libraries are supported by the taxes of their community, so advocates for libraries must be able to convince enough people in the community to vote in their favor.

Yes or no: Should library funding be held hostage by conservative activists and right-wing lawmakers who threaten to defund libraries that refuse to remove queer-friendly books, even when such books make up a miniscule amount of the library’s collection?

you need to see someone about those exterminationist paranoid fantasies you keep writing about

You’re the one who supports and lifts rhetoric from TERFs, not me. I’m not a fucking fascist like the people whose side you’re on in re: what they most certainly call “the transgender question”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Public libraries are funded and run by the government. Government officials are voted in by the people. Libraries are not being “held hostage”, they are part of the same citizen give-and-take that all governance sees. I would vote against any public official who wanted libraries to censor books based on viewpoint, but I am only one person. If enough people are discontented with the decisions being made, they will select people more in line with what they want. That’s called democracy.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

I would vote against any public official who wanted libraries to censor books based on viewpoint

I somehow doubt that, considering the people calling for such bans are likely the kind of people who are in lockstep with your anti-trans views.

If enough people are discontented with the decisions being made, they will select people more in line with what they want.

Right-wingers are discontented enough to select people who will ban books (and maybe shut down entire libraries) based on the fact that they’re written about/by/for queer people. Your claim that you’d vote against such people seems kind of bullshit when TERFs are helping lead the cause of banning pro-queer/pro-trans books.

Libraries are more than the books they carry. That you see nothing wrong with shutting down an important public resource over a handful of books that affirm the basic humanity of transgender people says a lot about you⁠—and it begins with the words “I am a bastard-coated bastard with bastard filling”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

There is a great deal wrong with shutting down public libraries when those libraries stock books without censoring them based on viewpoint. I don’t think I’ve seen librarians defend their libraries by saying that they stock both Gender Queer and Irreversible Damage, but I may have missed that. If librarians are stocking books with only one-sided political views, they should not be surprised if a community that opposes those views refuses to fund them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

There is a great deal wrong with shutting down public libraries when those libraries stock books without censoring them based on viewpoint.

And if a library stocks literally a handful of queer-friendly books amongst all its other offerings⁠—is that reason enough to start threatening libraries with (among other things) shutdowns to “protect the children” from evil?

Go back to Kiwifa⁠—oh wait you can’t

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Republicans are filth.

And yet, you support their attempts to rid schools of “woke [x] ideologies”, which often take the forms of book bans that target non-white/non-cishet authors and laws that forbid the teaching⁠—or even the mention⁠—of certain subjects (or certain ways of teaching those subjects). Curious. 🤔

the left providing the right with a poster child target of a graphic novel for teens with illustrations of queer oral sex is a special own goal

Three things.

  1. Take out the oral sex and I’m sure the right would still have a problem with the graphic novel.
  2. Teenagers can see more graphic depictions of queer oral sex on the Internet than they ever could in a graphic novel published in the United States.
  3. You ever notice how everyone on the right has a problem with “liberal art”, but they’re not especially keen on putting forth good examples of “conservative art”? (Hint: Conservatives like you can’t make great art because great art requires a spirit of transgression, a sense of introspection/self-awareness, and at least a little bit of the anti-authoritarianism that conservatives will always lack. Look at Christian media, for God’s sake.)
Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Of course not. The evil of woke race ideology is not in teaching true history. It is in blaming white people now for the failures of the ideologues’ favored victim groups. Aside from the fact that white people outside the echo chambers aren’t having any of this, because the ideology is wrong, it will be of no help to the people who need it. But to woke ideologues of all stripes, professing belief in the ideology is much more important than whether it is true.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The evil of woke race ideology is not in teaching true history.

And yet, every time I’ve mentioned that several of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, you’ve had a bit of a conniption fit about that fact because you apparently think I’m saying “the Founding Fathers were the second-worst evil to ever exist”. (If you have to ask what the worst was, you’re way more gone than I thought.)

What you have is a problem with people teaching history that doesn’t conform to a whitewashed view of history where (among other ideas that wash over the original sin of the United States) the Founding Fathers are morally righteous demigods. You don’t want people to think any less of Washington and Jefferson because they owned slaves, because you think that fact totally erases their accomplishments as the founders and first leaders of this country.

It is in blaming white people now for the failures of the ideologues’ favored victim groups.

Nobody teaches this. Not even Critical Race Theory⁠—the one that is actually taught only in higher education⁠—teaches that. Hell, CRT teaches that systemic racism can be so pervasive that people affected by it can uphold it without meaning to do so.

What you have a problem with is the fact that the systems set up to govern the United States today are all born from the systems of the past, all the way back to the days of the Founding Fathers⁠—systems, I should note, that were built on the ideas that white people were a superior race and land-owning white men were the only people that mattered socially, politically, and economically. Those systems evolved into what we have today, and until we’re able to grapple with the roots of those systems, we’ll never be able to uproot those systems and “plant” something better in their place.

to woke ideologues of all stripes, professing belief in the ideology is much more important than whether it is true

I’m probably what you’d consider to be a “woke ideologue”, and I don’t espouse that belief because it isn’t true.

What is true? Historically, the United States has privileged white people⁠ over all other racial groups, men over women, Christians over all other religious groups, and cishets over non-cishets. Historically, the privileged groups have often fought to retain their privilege by any means necessary⁠—up to and including the War to Preserve Slavery (a.k.a. the Civil War). Historically, the privileged groups designed systems and institutions to stymie any push for equality⁠—this includes shit like redlining and (now-unnecessary) homophobic bans on blood donations.

Yes, there is an oppressor class in each of the dichotomies I pointed out earlier. No, that doesn’t mean everyone who belongs to the oppressor class is an oppressor. Yes, that means intersectionality is a thing (e.g., a white man can be both an anti-racist and a misogynist). No, that doesn’t mean tossing everyone under a bus because they belong to a specific oppressor class.

I’m white, bi, atheist, cisgender, and male. If I go by what I wrote above, I belong to three oppressor groups (white, cisgender, and male). That doesn’t mean I’ve oppressed anyone, plan to oppress anyone, or want to oppress anyone. It means that the accident of my birth gave me sociopolitical privileges that some people don’t have. If anything, being cognizant of that fact is more likely to help me check my privileges at the door than use them to get a leg up on someone else. If I get anywhere in life, I want to get there because of my ability, not my gender or skin color.

By the same token, I also belong to two oppressed groups (bisexuals and atheists). That doesn’t mean I’ve been directly oppressed⁠—but it does mean that I stand a chance of being oppressed based on those two traits. But I’m not going to blame all Christians or all heterosexuals if I’m denied a job or a home or something else because of my sexual orientation or my (lack of) religion. I’m going to blame the person who denied me and the systems that privilege Christians and straight people⁠—systems that the person who denied me may not even realize they’re upholding.

You talk of “woke ideologues” as if they’re a hivemind⁠—as if a radical belief a handful of people might hold is a standard to everyone who isn’t a conservative “anti-woke” shithead. I’m here to assure you that not only are you wrong, you’re one of those shitheads. The fact that you see nothing wrong with denying children access to age-appropriate books about people of color and queer people⁠—books that could teach them empathy for those people⁠—while repeating the same scripted lies as your TERF allies is your problem. Fix it yourself.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

You are wrong. First of all, all current systems are evolved from earlier ones, so that statement is both tautological and vacuous. Second, it is useless to “grapple with roots of the system”. That’s just something that stupid woke academics believe, because it’s their job to produce unreadable garbage for their journals. To help people, it is necessary to find out what is causing them trouble right now, and try to find solutions that directly address those problems.

I watched my local news in NYC the other night. The lead story was about two Black women who got into a fist fight, then one got into a car and drove into the sidewalk after the other one, killing a man who was sitting on his walker. The next story was about Black men shooting from the moonroof of a moving car. Then a Black woman who was grazed in the face by a bullet. All in the Bronx, just in a day. It is a joke to thing that “grappling with root issues” is going to do anything to keep those people safe. What will keep people safe is a return to stop-and-frisk and to broken-windows policing. But woke race ideologues will as ever refuse to face reality that doesn’t cover with their theories.

Oh, and I assume the worst evil you’re talking about is Communism?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

it is useless to “grapple with roots of the system”

No, it isn’t⁠—unless you think you can rebuild a foundation without first tearing down the old one. Anything built on top of a shitty foundation is eventually going to crumble; one can only put up so much tape and plaster and whatever to stop that from happening before the effort is for naught.

Admitting that the foundation is bad to begin with is the first step to replacing it with something better. But you can’t replace what you won’t even acknowledge exists⁠—or what you insist isn’t a problem.

(I bet you would’ve gone right along with redlining back in its heyday. Chances are good that I would’ve, too⁠—but at least I’ve got the balls to say as much.)

To help people, it is necessary to find out what is causing them trouble right now, and try to find solutions that directly address those problems.

Fixing up the building without trying to repair/replace the foundation only makes the building look prettier before it eventually implodes.

You can “solve” homelessness with more housing, but that doesn’t get to the root of what creates and perpetuates homelessness: economic desperation. To truly address homelessness, we have to look at and address the factors that create homelessness, such as the artificial scarcity driving up housing prices and the stagnant wages that prevent upward social mobility. Ignoring those root causes ensures that we’ll see the problem perpetuate itself⁠—and worsen along the way⁠—before it ever gets any better.

It is a joke to thing that “grappling with root issues” is going to do anything to keep those people safe.

What do you mean, “those people”? 🤨

And no, grappling with the root issues of violence and socioeconomic despair won’t “keep[ ]people safe” in the short-term. It’s not supposed to⁠—it’s supposed to look at ways of addressing those problems in a long-term vision that gradually decreases problems. A shitty foundation can’t be replaced or repaired in a single day⁠—of course you’d need to temporarily shore it up until it can be fixed. But temporary measures are just that; they shouldn’t be relied upon as permanent relief, no matter the temptation to ignore long-term problems in favor of short-term solutions.

What will keep people safe is a return to stop-and-frisk and to broken-windows policing.

Thank you for confirming that you’re a racist son of a bitch in addition to an exterminationist TERF. Wanna throw some ableism in there and really work your way towards being full-on TRASH?

I assume the worst evil you’re talking about is Communism?

I was talking about Hitler, you incredible moron. You know, the fascist who led a regime that, among many other (in)famous atrocities, burned a library’s worth of scientific research about queer people and murdered an untold number of “degenerates” as part of the Holocaust?

…oh, wait, nevermind⁠—I’m sure you don’t have a problem with those specific atrocities.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I am ableist, in fact. People with handicaps are broken; they can’t do the same stuff that normal people can. There’s nothing wrong with saying that, unless you believe in yet another woke ideology.

Communism was worse than Nazism: https://reason.com/2013/03/13/communism-killed-94m-in-20th-century/ And of course, one feature of Soviet Communism was Lysenkoism, which denied physical biological reality and led to agricultural disaster. Denying physical reality is baked into woke ideology.

Redlining affected lots of white people too: https://reason.com/2022/02/01/how-to-talk-about-racism/

If you don’t get your favored victim groups to take responsibility for their behavior, nothing else you try will make any difference at all. All this talk about foundations is garbage dedicated to making sure that your favored victim groups never face criticism.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I am ableist, in fact. People with handicaps are broken; they can’t do the same stuff that normal people can.

I mean…uh…wow, I didn’t expect you to come right out and say “disabled people suck”, but…damn, dude.

Communism was worse than Nazism

Nazism still lives on within the United States as fascism (and the barely-an-offshoot that is Christian nationalism). Can’t really say the same for communism, especially since American fascists are⁠ capitalists.

one feature of Soviet Communism was Lysenkoism, which denied physical biological reality and led to agricultural disaster.

Are you seriously trying to imply that all transgender people are, only by virtue of existing as trans, automatically communists? Jesus, you TERF motherfuckers really will blame trans people for every conceivable thing.

Redlining affected lots of white people too

But it was a system designed first and foremost to negatively affect Black people. That people from other racial groups were hurt by the system doesn’t change the fact of who the system was designed to hurt.

If you don’t get your favored victim groups to take responsibility for their behavior, nothing else you try will make any difference at all.

Then how about you tell all your TERF allies to stop calling in bomb threats to children’s hospitals, you son of a bitch.

All this talk about foundations is garbage dedicated to making sure that your favored victim groups never face criticism.

No, it isn’t. The foundation metaphor is about systemic discrimination and how to approach it in both short- and long-term thinking: short-term to mitigate the effects of a discriminatory system, long-term to prevent those effects from ever being a thing again. When you build a system on top of a solid foundation⁠—i.e., when you design a system to avoid discrimination as much as possible and adapt to any flaws that approach will inevitably have⁠—you’ll have a much better system on your hands. Build a system on a shitty foundation⁠—i.e., build a system based on upholding, say, white male cishet supremacy⁠—and that foundation will eventually crumble, taking everything on top of it with it. You can’t hold up a shitty foundation forever; you must either overhaul it or replace it altogether.

If you want to criticize entire groups of people based on the actions of a partial number of that group⁠—e.g., painting all Black people as “lazy” because some Black people are lazy⁠—you go right ahead and stereotype the people you want to attack. But that approach will eventually make you a TRASH person. (You’re three-fifths of the way there by your own admission.)

Feel free to criticize the actions of individuals/smaller groups, but don’t act like they’re 100% representative of an entire demographic. That leads to the stereotyping and hatred of individual people for no reason other than (among other things) the circumstances of their birth. That kind of stereotyping is why you see all trans people and their allies as “woke gender ideologues” who are trying to trans all the kids as soon as they’re born and explode gender bombs in major metropolitan areas. It’s also why you refuse to accept the fact that trans people generally want to live their lives without being a political talking point, a hashtag, or a victim of violence simply because of who they are.

You’re the one who thinks you’re the victim of the evils of “woke gender ideology” when most trans people aren’t even trying to make you do anything⁠—including use their preferred pronouns. And if that’s enough to make you fall in league with the kind of people who are actively trying to push trans people out of public life (or into an open grave), you’ve got a problem that no amount of hating, harassing, or celebrating the deaths of trans people will ever fucking fix.

What will all your hate really get you in the end when the future stops coming but time marches on?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I don’t have “TERF allies”. People who call in bomb threats to hospitals should be arrested and imprisoned, but that does not mean that advocates against gender ideology must silence themselves from protesting, any more than Black Lives Matter protests needed to stop because they were sometimes accompanied by rioting, looting, and arson. Only the criminals need to be stopped in both cases.

When not all A are B but all B are A, it usually indicates a systemic problem within A that needs to be addressed there.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

People who call in bomb threats to hospitals should be arrested and imprisoned, but that does not mean that advocates against gender ideology must silence themselves from protesting

The problem with this line of thinking: Threats of violence is the logical and eventual endgame of TERF-led anti-trans “advocacy”. Y’all can’t make trans people to live the way y’all want them to by asking them to, and despite all the attempts so far (and the attempts still to come), y’all can’t use the law to do it either. The only way to make them live that way is through violence. (Same goes for allies of trans people and their pro-trans advocacy⁠.)

You might want to believe you can condemn the actions without condemning the thinking that justifies those actions. Remember what you said about telling people they were wrong? Well, you’re wrong here.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You can politely disagree that men can be women, that the Earth is flat, or that Jesus is Lord. It is only when the targets of the disagreement try to force you to affirm those beliefs that it’s time to abandon politeness for insistence.

You would like to frame disagreement as eliminationism because that lets you pretend that you are protecting the safety of the people you are defending rather than their lies.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You can politely disagree that men can be women, that the Earth is flat, or that Jesus is Lord.

I wonder if you can “politely disagree” that Black people are people, or that queer people deserve to live. I’ve seen enough shit in my lifetime to know there are plenty of people who believe Black people are subhuman filth and queer people deserve to be executed by the state, but I’m wondering if you (or anyone else) can “politely” hold those positions.

It is only when the targets of the disagreement try to force you to affirm those beliefs that it’s time to abandon politeness for insistence.

Try and guess why damn near everyone here is insisting you treat trans people like people instead of things whose existence can be questioned and debated.

Treating people as things, that’s where it starts…

You would like to frame disagreement as eliminationism because that lets you pretend that you are protecting the safety of the people you are defending rather than their lies.

And there you have it, folks⁠—Hyman believes trans people are all liars. It’s the same kind of shit you see with assholes who refer to trans people as “traps”⁠—a slur and a mindset, by the by, that some of those assholes use to justify demeaning, harassing, and even assaulting/killing trans people.

Go back to 8kun, you trans-hating paperclip.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

There’s a purpose in telling people what they need to hear, but don’t want to hear.

Those TERFs you associate with aren’t your friends⁠—they’re allies who will drop you like a bad habit the moment you aren’t in lockstep with their exterminationist rhetoric. How’s that for telling you what you need to hear but don’t want to hear?

Here’s another example: Nobody here is buying your rhetoric, and you’d be far better off going back to your TERF allies and circlejerking yourselves on whatever 8kun is calling itself these days.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

If I just serve to remind you that there are scores of millions of people who do not accept your gender ideology, that’s sufficient for me.

I don’t have “TERF allies” who will “drop me”. I will state my opinions as I wish, and other people may agree with them totally, partially, or not at all, and it will not matter to me.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

If I just serve to remind you that there are scores of millions of people who do not accept your gender ideology, that’s sufficient for me.

That sounds like a threat. But just so you know: Though I die, La Résistance lives on.

I don’t have “TERF allies”

And yet, you lift all your scripted bullshit from (among other sources) shithead TERFs. Curious. 🤔

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

That’s not a threat, just an observation. Here in your echo chamber, is easy for you to overlook that in 2020, 74 million people voted for Trump. Those people have their own massive issues accepting physical reality, but you’re not going to slip “transwomen are men” past them unnoticed.

Since I agree with much of what TERFs have to say, why are you surprised that I would quote them? It they switch to positions that I disagree with, then I’ll disagree. Just because woke ideologues feel obligated to march in lockstep doesn’t mean that I do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Here in your echo chamber, is easy for you to overlook that in 2020, 74 million people voted for Trump.

No, I’m well aware of that fact. I hate that fact nearly as much as I hate Donald Trump, and you have no earthly fucking idea how deep that hatred runs.

you’re not going to slip “transwomen are men” past them unnoticed

To me, that reads like “74 million people are going to paint a target on your back the size of Trump’s ego if you say that to even one Trump supporter”.

Since I agree with much of what TERFs have to say, why are you surprised that I would quote them?

I’m not. I’m surprised that you’d try to distance yourself from them in even the slightest way when you’ve been lifting their scripted bullshit wholesale for months. I space out my use of copypastas; you’ve legit repeated entire sentences (and even paragraphs!) over and over in the same comments section.

It they switch to positions that I disagree with, then I’ll disagree.

Let’s put that to the test.

Just because woke ideologues feel obligated to march in lockstep doesn’t mean that I do.

You wanna know what’s funny? This is the same kind of shit conservatives say about liberals, even though (in my experience) liberals are more likely to disagree with one another than conservatives on issues of policy. Hell, look at how many liberals/progressives are pissed off at Biden for not going far enough with student loan forgiveness, then compare that to the largely march-in-lockstep approach of conservatives saying Biden shouldn’t have done it in the first place.

For all your bullshit about not marching in lockstep with your TERF allies, you’ve been doing exactly that, to the point where you either can’t or won’t say trans people deserve a place in the public sphere (that isn’t an open grave).

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Doctors and hospitals carrying out legal medical procedures should not be threatened with violence, ever. It is fine to criticize them for performing such procedures if you believe they are harmful, just as liberal ideologues criticized (and criminalized, which is not OK) conversion therapy.

Trans people have, and should have, a place in the public square to live as themselves and to advocate for their positions. It is up to those of us who recognize that gender ideology is false to make sure that gender ideologues do not get to force single-sex spaces to admit people whose bodies disqualify them, or to teach gender ideology as truth in public schools, or to force people to affirm gender ideology implicitly it6 explicitly. That’s how politics and democracy work.

Attempting to silence criticism by claiming that such criticism incites violence should not be allowed to succeed. Rather, people who threaten or commit violence should be arrested and imprisoned.

I am quite aware that I am repeating myself verbatim. I will keep doing so as many times as you post comments willfully refusing to acknowledge that you do not get to force gender ideology onto people who do not accept it.

I am not trying to “distance”myself, or not, from anyone. It’s fine with me if you find my opinions coherent with what TERFs are saying, or of you do not.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Are you talking about Democrats occupying capitols to overturn election results they don’t like?

According to the article you linked, the event in Wisconsin that wasn’t an attempt to overturn an election, it was an attempt to stop a vote on legislation. Still wrong either way, though.

Are you suggesting parents should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in what is taught in the classroom?

A parent can impress upon their child their beliefs, that is their right. A parent can tell their kid “premarital sex is wrong,” or “God created humans.” However, a parent that seeks to deny their child knowledge of how the reproductive system functions, or that there is more than one idea on how humans came to exist, is just doing that child a disservice.

Does that mean they get “no say whatsoever?” Of course not. But they also should not be able to bury their kid’s head in the sand.

We should allow EVERYTHING from racist CRT

There’s a lot of bad stuff in American history. We need to own up to it, not bury it. It’s not racist to admit our wrongs.

to indoctrinating young children into sexual activity?

Telling a child that homosexuality and gender preference are things that exist is not the same as telling a child they should go have sex right now. Do you have any evidence that there are teachers telling children to go have sex?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

We should not be teaching children lies in public schools. Just as we would object if public schools taught students that some supernatural entity created the universe, we should object to teaching students that people can be a sex different from their bodies. To properly teach these things in schools, the correct approach is to say that some people believe these things and others do not, and as citizens of a free country, people get to make up their own minds about such disputed issues.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I went to private Jewish parochial schools and we were taught all of those things. CRT ideologues want to teach that America and the West are intrinsically evil and that all of the good principles the founders believed in are valueless and meaningless. The notion that people opposed to CRT want to ignore the actual evils in our country’s past is a self-serving lie.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

…we should object to teaching students that people can be a sex different from their bodies.

I’ve never come across that being taught anywhere. Even gender clinics hold that sex is intrinsically tied to the body even where the gender differs, not that a homophobic psychopath like you will recognize that truth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

To properly teach these things in schools, the correct approach is to say that some people believe these things and others do not, and as citizens of a free country, people get to make up their own minds about such disputed issues.

To CORRECTLY teach that topic in schools, the CORRECT approach would be to say that, firstly, biological sex and gender are different things, secondly, gender dysphoria exists and is a disgnosable mental condition in the DSMV, and thirdly, that however people express their gender, THEY ARE STILL HUMANS.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Schizophrenics, anorexics, and paranoias are all humans, but we do not accept their views of reality as correct. The claims of gender ideologues are false. Sex and gender are the same thing, but of course behavior need not be bound by social gender stereotypes. If men went to dress, look, and behave like gender-stereotypical women, that’s fine, but that doesn’t make them women. Similarly, women may choose not to follow women’s social stereotypes, but they are still women, not men or non-binary.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Societies have stereotypes about how “real” men and women behave (in repressive societies, how they must behave). People should be free to behave as they like and not follow stereotypes if they don’t want to, but that doesn’t change what they are. In particular, they cannot declare themselves to be a sex different from their bodies and then force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Behavior is infinitely malleable. Bodies are not.

One consequence of gender ideology is the reinforcement of social gender stereotypes, especially for women. Instead of women declaring that they are free to behave as they wish, women who do not wish to conform to stereotypical behavior are increasingly declaring themselves to be not women, while men who think they’re women about that stereotypical behavior. This is why TERFs are so opposed to gender ideology.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

TERFs also love to use exterminationist rhetoric that seeks to define trans people out of public life by erasing their existence (one way or another). That you side with people who want to destroy an entire demographic of people out of fear or what that demographic’s existence could do (and already is doing) to the strict gender norms that represent some semblance “order” in a world of chaos? That says a lot about you⁠—and none of it is complimentary.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

And none of that response even addresses, much less refutes, the statement that sex and gender aren’t the same thing.

In particular, they cannot declare themselves to be a sex different from their bodies

Nobody is doing that. They’re declaring themselves a different gender from the one that was chosen for them by other people. Sex is genetic and doesn’t change. Gender is psychological and behavioral, socioculturally defined, and has been historically based on sex; but it isn’t the same as sex. Behavior can be influenced by sex, but it isn’t defined or limited by it.

If all you care about is a person’s sex, then a person’s gender identity is utterly irrelevant, and it should be totally fine in your worldview for “men” to wear dresses and makeup, have pink as a favorite color, enjoy romance films, gossip about relationships, and openly display vulnerable emotions, for example, (or, really, exhibit just about any behavior they choose) and you should also vehemently oppose anyone who believes that a “man” can’t do any of those things, even in a “single-sex space” like a locker room.

Do you?

single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Why do single-sex spaces even need to exist at all? If you want to argue potential abuse/assault, that kind of thing happens just as much, if not more, in mixed-sex spaces, so that isn’t justification.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 It should be fine in your worldview...

And it totally is. No one should in any way be obligated to act according to gender stereotype.

Single-sex spaces exist because people have social, cultural, and religious beliefs and taboos that require them. You are welcome to try to convince people that such spaces are unnecessary. But if you try to force people to give them up, you will encounter fierce pushback, as in fact you are now seeing.

Interestingly, changing one’s pronouns sits on the border between personal choice and coercing others. When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves. It’s very situational.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

changing one’s pronouns sits on the border between personal choice and coercing others

It really doesn’t. You can actively and knowingly refuse to use a person’s preferred pronouns when talking to them. (For the record: he/him or they/them for me.) But that choice, like all others, has consequences⁠—and by making the choice to disrespect someone’s identity, you’ve implicitly agreed to accept those consequences, including any negative ones (e.g., being called a transphobic dick). If you can’t accept those consequences, that’s your problem; you can solve it by not being a transphobic dick.

When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves.

Someone asking you to respect their gender identity in the most innocuous way possible isn’t setting forth a massive philosophical quandry meant to tear apart space-time or delving into your psyche to see what makes you tick or whatever other pretentious bullshit you can think of. They’re asking you to not be a transphobic dick. You can “disagree” with someone being trans (i.e., despise the existence of trans people) without acting like an asshole who thinks “hey, my pronouns are [x]” is a double-secret invitation to debate that person’s very existence for hours on end.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

That’s why it’s borderline. There are people who just want to be addressed as what they think they are, and there are people looking to go on the attack against “misgendering” in order to silence and weed out people who do not believe in gender ideology.

You wind up with things like presidential signing statements. “I will address people by their preferred pronouns out of politeness, but that should not be taken to imply that I believe that they are anything but the sex of their bodies.” It’s also a lot like having to use currency and courtrooms with “In God We Trust” defecated on them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

there are people looking to go on the attack against “misgendering” in order to silence and weed out people who do not believe in gender ideology

Gee, it’s almost as if some people don’t like seeing trans people being treated like trash by a bunch of right-wing dingleberries who think “I identify as an attack helicopter” is the height of hilarity~. Imagine that~.

“I will address people by their preferred pronouns out of politeness, but that should not be taken to imply that I believe that they are anything but the sex of their bodies.”

If you have to put out a statement like that to explain why you treat trans people with the most basic level of human dignity and respect, the problem isn’t with trans people or their allies. Grow up, you sweet summer fetus.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

People are the sex of their bodies. If anyone attempts to force people to affirm otherwise, explicitly or implicitly, that needs to be pushed back upon. Use of preferred pronouns lies on the border of politeness and affirmation, so it is the responsibility of people who disagree with gender ideology to make sure that they are not perceived as being affirming, only polite.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

If anyone attempts to force people to affirm otherwise, explicitly or implicitly, that needs to be pushed back upon.

And how hard should that “push” be, hmm? Because I’m sure some of your TERF allies would be fine with a “push” that’s really a “stab” or a “slit” or a “beating”.

You wanted to be on the side of the TERFs, shitbird⁠—now you have to accept what you’re part of, including the violence.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I assume you do not think, though, that all Black Lives Matter protesters are responsible for the rioting, looting, and arson that sometimes accompanied them?

Nope. But the Movement for Black Lives wasn’t (and still isn’t) calling for white people to stop existing as white⁠; it was calling for a national reckoning with systemic racism. TERFs explicitly believe trans people should stop existing as trans⁠—and that the law and society should help stop trans people from existing as trans (or in general) by any means necessary. Apparently, that now includes threatening to bomb children’s hospitals that treat trans children in any way.

You do not get to silence dissent because there are some people who share the same views and choose to act in criminal ways.

You can’t “dissent” with someone’s existence, you fucking fascist.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:9

When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves.

So if a person with a penis asks to be addressed by feminine pronouns, you’re going to disrespect her wishes and expose her to the risk of rape on the basis that such pronouns are “wrong for her body” just because she’s intersex? You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

A person with a penis is almost always a man, barring weird genetic or developmental sports like Caster Semenya, so addressing him by feminine pronouns can only be a matter of politeness for people who disagree with gender ideology. Using emotional blackmail (“exposed to the risk of rape”) to demand that someone affirm lies by should be met by firm demurral.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

A person with a penis is almost always a man

What if they’re intersex⁠—will you still call them a man, or will you just call them a freak like your TERF allies probably would? If you’re gonna be on the TERF side in this, at least have the courage of your shitheaded convictions to own being a TERF instead of trying to distance yourself from their rhetoric, their hate, and their violence with the weakest possible pushback.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

The best way to fix a slippery slope is to roughen it at the top before anyone slides down. The government (and large private companies too) can bring a lot of pressure to bear without having it be literal state action. The way to deal with that is to make a lot of noise immediately, not to wait until vast amounts of censorship have been outsourced. Twitter, Facebook, and the like should be made very aware, and very nervous, that people are closely watching the choices they make about viewpoint-based censorship.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment. For example, when I dispute gender ideology by saying transwomen are men, the gender ideologues here say that this is hate speech. Their intent is to silence critics, not to tone police them.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment.

Guess that makes you a trans reality-denying idealogue, then.

For example, when I tell lies about gender identity by claiming transwomen are men, the gender realists here state that this is hate speech.

FTFY. YW.

My intent is to silence critics by tone policing them.

FTFY. YW.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

By saying “transwomen are (wo)men,” except without the parentheses.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

(This one, for those unfamiliar: https://xkcd.com/1357/)

Why do you think that comic is relevant to me? It’s almost entirely correct. The only issue I would take is when it says that no one is required to listen to opinions they don’t like. The caveat there is that “not listening” to opinions cannot mean silencing the speakers of those opinions while still proclaiming a belief in free speech. Sometimes people will be in the real or virtual presence of speakers of those opinions, and they will not be able to avoid hearing them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment.

No; they say that all disagreement is bad, but not necessarily harassment specifically.

For example, when I dispute gender ideology by saying transwomen are men, the gender ideologues here say that this is hate speech.

Which is a valid opinion to have. Also, what you are asserting is that, under your definition of men, transwomen are men; that does not refute the assertions of “gender ideologues” who use a different definition of “men”.

Their intent is to silence critics, not to tone police them.

Their intent is to have you not tell them they are lying and/or delusional, which is what you are doing.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

“I am of the opinion that transwomen are still male—even after treatment—and, therefore, should not be permitted to enter women-only spaces. I also don’t believe that there is a true difference between gender and sex, so I use ‘men’ and ‘male’ as identical terms.”

While this doesn’t make you not a transphobe, this is probably the least offensive way to express your opinions on the matter as you are stating it in terms of your opinions and beliefs. Even if you believe your opinions are factually accurate, this still sends the message you are trying to convey without being too offensive about it.

Now, that said, you seem to assume that, for any issue, there must be a way to disagree with someone without saying something bigoted. However, there are some things that are necessarily bigoted no matter how you try to phrase it. “Black people are inherently inferior to white people,” is going to be racist no matter how you choose to phrase it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

What does it matter to you what someone has between their legs and how they’re defined on a biological level when, 99.999999% of the time, that information has no relevance to you?

It doesn’t. But in the same way as “button” is a whole lot easier to say than “that round thing that gets sown onto clothing to help fasten it together,” don’t you think there should be something similar for “that biological/genetic state, generally associated with XY chromosomal makeup, where a person has high testosterone levels, tendencies toward increased upper body strength, deeper voice, more body hair, and an external reproductive organ?” And you can’t use “male” for that because AC above is using that word as a gender definition for which none of those things is required, and we don’t want people to improperly conflate the two things.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

don’t you think there should be something similar for “that biological/genetic state, generally associated with XY chromosomal makeup, where a person has high testosterone levels, tendencies toward increased upper body strength, deeper voice, more body hair, and an external reproductive organ?”

Maybe. But I don’t need that sort of thing because I’m not a scientist or a doctor, and I don’t spend my days worrying about what reproductive organs everyone else has. I’ll let the people in the labcoats and glasses worry about that shit because I have better things to do than obsess about who has what between their legs and how that might not coincide with their genetic makeup.

Seriously, transphobes need to get a fuckin’ life⁠—and coming from me, that’s saying a lot.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It matters a lot to women in prison who are locked up together with men who call themselves women. It matters to people who have religious beliefs that require separation of men and women in summer contexts. It matters to women who don’t want men on their sports teams.

And it seems to matter a lot to men who demand to be allowed into women’s spaces upon calling themselves women.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 It's all a matter of terminology!

The word woman should probably be restricted to refer to someone that is biologically female.

The word man should probably be restricted to refer to someone that is biologically male.

Even though the French would probably be freaked, it would make sense

  1. to call someone feminine by gender a femme and
  2. to call someone masculine by gender an homme.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It matters a lot to women in prison who are locked up together with men who call themselves women.

I have seen no evidence that transwomen are more likely to rape women in prison than ciswomen are to rape other ciswomen in prison, than transmen are to rape ciswomen in prison, or than cismen are to rape transwomen in prison. But, regardless, I’m more concerned about restrooms and locker rooms than prisons on this front.

It matters to people who have religious beliefs that require separation of men and women in summer contexts.

I’ve already stated why I don’t believe that’s sufficient to overcome the genuine safety concerns of transwomen. Religious freedom has its limitations.

Also, that they do care about it doesn’t mean they should care about it.

It matters to women who don’t want men on their sports teams.

This is a complicated issue, so I won’t discuss it one way or the other. I don’t care enough about sports to motivate myself to educate myself enough on the matter to offer an educated opinion.

And it seems to matter a lot to men who demand to be allowed into women’s spaces upon calling themselves women.

What matters is the social aspect, not the physical aspect.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I think that my three-weird phrasing is equivalent to your longer way of saying it, and having to write paragraphs every time for people who won’t accept that opinion anyway seems like too much work. But the paragraphs do express my opinion correctly.

As for my telling people that they’re delusional, the fact is that people can be delusional. Trump did not win the last election. Anorexics are not fat. When people are delusional about physical reality, they need to expect that people will tell them that, and that physical reality will not change to conform to their beliefs. And fortunately or unfortunately, gender ideology is a delusion, and one that will cause a great deal of harm to people who are going to be fooled into thinking they should transition instead of getting mental health treatment so that they can learn to live comfortably in their own bodies. A significant problem is that these people, often young, have a constellation of mental health issues, including depression, and they’re being told by the internet and activists that transition is the answer.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I think that my three-weird phrasing is equivalent to your longer way of saying it, and having to write paragraphs every time for people who won’t accept that opinion anyway seems like too much work.

Being polite is often more work than being rude. If it’s too much, you can always copy-paste it.

But the paragraphs do express my opinion correctly.

Okay. Glad that I’m not otherwording you, then.

As for my telling people that they’re delusional, the fact is that people can be delusional.

Sure, but a) we’re talking about politeness and tone, and saying, “You’re delusional,” is certainly not polite; and b) you haven’t stated anything actually claimed by real transgender people or their allies that supports a claim that they are being delusional when combined with facts that either we would agree with or that you have alleged.

When people are delusional about physical reality, they need to expect that people will tell them that, and that physical reality will not change to conform to their beliefs.

Transgender people are not making claims about physical reality other than that of the physiology of their brains (which have been demonstrated to either be true or meaningless, not false) and that their physiological/biological/genetic sexes do not fit their gender identity. Neither of these are contrary to physical reality.

Also, again, I was talking about tone and bigotry. Stating that an entire class of people is delusional can still be bigotry even if you genuinely believe it’s true.

It’s also worth noting that, for anorexics, they genuinely believe that their physical bodies are fat. Transwomen do not, as a rule, believe that their physical bodies are female, and transmen do not believe that their physical bodies are male. They often (though not necessarily) feel uncomfortable with their bodies being as they actually are (this is known as gender dysphoria), and they may wish to undergo medical procedures to try to make their bodies conform better (though not necessarily perfectly) with their gender identities (though not all wish to), but they are not perceiving their bodies as being different from how they actually are. There is a massive difference between the two.

And fortunately or unfortunately, gender ideology is a delusion, […]

You have failed to demonstrate this to be true. At best, you have demonstrated that your straw man of transgender people’s position is a delusion, but that in itself is based on your own misunderstanding (deliberate or not) of what these people actually say and not reality.

[…] and one that will cause a great deal of harm to people who are going to be fooled into thinking they should transition instead of getting mental health treatment so that they can learn to live comfortably in their own bodies.

Not only have you not demonstrated this to be true, it is also actually contrary to reality.

A significant problem is that these people, often young, have a constellation of mental health issues, including depression, and they’re being told by the internet and activists that transition is the answer.

No, they’re being told that transitioning is an answer, and that there are multiple ways to transition that don’t all end in the same results. Not all transgender people actually transition or even wish to transition. The fact that you fail to recognize nuance in others’ position doesn’t mean that that nuance is not present there.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The notion that there there are detectable physiological differences such that s man has a female mind or vice versa is false. Gender ideologues would like to claim this, but they would also squeal if anyone suggested that people who claim to be trans should be tested to see if those differences are actually present. Gender ideology is as much a psychological fantasy as was phrenology, facilitated communication, homosexuality as a disease, or recovered memory. Psychology is notorious for “scientific” claims that cannot be replicated or demonstrated.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The notion that there there are detectable physiological differences such that s man has a female mind or vice versa is false.

False, as the AC points out.

Gender ideologues would like to claim this, but they would also squeal if anyone suggested that people who claim to be trans should be tested to see if those differences are actually present.

Because it is impractical and an invasion of medical privacy to do so all the time. There is also no evidence that there is any real danger of false claims to be transgender that would necessitate such a thing.

Additionally, the differences between masculine and feminine brains are in the averages; there may be some overlap between cismale brains and cisfemale brains, but the transwomen’s brains are (at least generally) far more similar to the average ciswoman’s brain than the average iceman’s brain, and the opposite is true for transmen.

Gender ideology is as much a psychological fantasy as was phrenology, facilitated communication, homosexuality as a disease, or recovered memory.

False. The claims of transgender people are nothing like any of those, and you have offered nothing to support your claims.

Psychology is notorious for “scientific” claims that cannot be replicated or demonstrated.

No moreso than any other scientific field.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It’s helpful in the sense that there are now far more people who believe in the delusion of gender ideology than the number of people who consider themselves to be transgender. Those people are deluded and wrong but do not themselves suffer the mental health issues that lead people to feel alienated from their bodies.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

there are now far more people who believe in the delusion of gender ideology than the number of people who consider themselves to be transgender

I’d bet good money that the number of people you say “believe in the delusion of gender ideology” actually believe less in whatever you say “gender ideology” is this week and more in the good ol’ Golden Rule. You don’t have to be a dick to treat trans people like people instead of things⁠—things to be used as inanimate pawns in an argument that can be tossed into the gutter after you’ve got no more use for them, which is apparently how you think of trans people.

“There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”

“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”

“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”

“But they starts with thinking about people as things…”

(Source: Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett; read you some goddamn Discworld books so you can learn to be a better person)

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality. Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are. Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies. The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth. It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality.

You can’t make your transphobia sound any less transphobic by saying “physical reality”. That you care so much about the lives, genitals, and genetic makeup of trans people is almost as disturbing as people who think the genetic makeup of Black people determines their worth as a human being. I almost have to wonder if you have a side interest in phrenology.

Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are.

This is the kind of shit I expect some far-right lawmaker to say right before they say, “And when I’m in power, I will introduce a law that will force people to live under their God-given identity and adhere to their God-given gender roles, praise Jesus.”

Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies.

No, what trans people and their allies insist is that even if you think being transgender is a trend or a choice or a bunch of bullshit, you don’t get to harass and harangue trans people into the closet or the grave so you can feel good about “restoring order to the world” or some other fascist bullshit.

The existence of trans people doesn’t hurt you in any way, yet you remain obsessed with making them live in a way that comforts your bigotry, your biases, and your personal sense of self. Shit, man, I’m a bisexual male who watches a fair bit of porn and even I don’t obsess over people’s genitals the way you do. That you’re basically a step or two removed from calling for laws that govern people’s access to civil rights by their genetics and their gender presentation is your fucking problem. I can’t and won’t help you solve it.

The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth.

Two problems with your assertion.

  1. People can still set up single-sex spaces that are trans-exclusionary, but they should expect to be called TERFs (or worse) for doing so; everything has a price.
  2. Nobody is asking you to “accept[] falsehood as truth”⁠—they’re asking you to stop trying to make trans people’s lives miserable regardless of how you feel about what I’m almost certain you would call “the trans question”.

It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Except it isn’t even close to being the same. Trying to conflate trans people asking not to be harassed into suicide with Christofascists trying to enforce their beliefs and dogma onto everyone else by force (either legal or physical) is bullshit; you know it, I know it, and anyone else with some gotdamn sense knows it.

You’re the one trying to enforce strict gender roles and identities onto other people by forcing them to “tell the truth” and “live by their biology” and all this other transphobic rhetoric you keep spewing. You’re the ideological fascist here, you son of a bitch. Trans people just want to live without being beaten, raped, and killed (possibly not even in that order) by fanatics like you.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality.

No one is claiming otherwise. They’re saying that the specific aspects of physical reality you’re focused on are none of your business.

Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are.

Under your definition, yes. However, that is not how we define them or scientifically determined, and that you think that way doesn’t help your case.

Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies.

“Should”, not “must”. You can be transphobic if you want.

The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, […]

Not really. They don’t own those single-sex spaces. Additionally, not all cisgender people agree on whether they are single-sex spaces or single-gender spaces, and the main reason for asking for the latter is a matter of safety, not mere preference.

[…] and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth.

  1. No it doesn’t.
  2. That’s not infringing on their rights.

It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Not at all. It’s more like recognizing that transgender people exist and face certain hardships that require different treatment, or simply minding your own business.

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anon says:

History always repeats itself.

“Except they weren’t asking them to shut down the accounts. They were asking why the companies didn’t consider Berenson to have violated its terms. Which is a legitimate question.”

All I could think of at this point in the article is “Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?”

hcunn (profile) says:

Berenson fooled me (sort of)

I read Berenson’s WSJ piece and got the impression he was suspended for arguing that Covid-19 originated in Wuhan and the PRC was not being honest about it. This Techdirt piece stirred me to look him up on Wikipedia, and I find he is an anti-vaxxer. [Gong!]

(2) To be another Galileo, it is not enough to be persecuted. You also have to be right.

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Koby (profile) says:

Secret Questions Are Coercion

Again, literally all that shows is the White House asking about it. And, as Berenson’s buddy, Tucker Carlson, let’s us know all the time, “what’s wrong with just asking questions?” Again, none of this turns Twitter into a state actor.

You’re supposed to ask the question out in the open. If you use secret back channels to get someone banned, then that’s State Action. Questions asked under the cover of darkness are just government threats.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Zero tolerance

I think any government employee (except judges that are issuing rulings) that asks any company, publicly or privately, to censor or otherwise restrict the speech, should be struck off by default. Fired. Zero tolerance. The content of speech irrelevant. It must not be tolerated as a function of government, it is the gateway to corruption.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

And then they refuse to understand (that is to say, with an agenda) that to which they wish to apply the rules they don’t or won’t correctly understand.

For example, let’s frame the subject under discussion as, “Gov asked/demanded that asshat B. be banned” rather than, “Since you’re moderating accounts doing X, why aren’t relevabt posts at very popular B. account moderated at all”.

While it is still a case of geez get your nose out, Gov, it isn’t what some wish to present it as to generate interest/outrage in something of which it is hardly worthy. Everybody, quick, race to the lowest common denominator of wrong, but don’t stop there.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Nothing Complex Either about either Common Carriage or State Action Doctrine!

At Bell Labs an MTS (Member of Technical Staff), who worked with the legal staff, had to take an internal course in common carriage and in state action doctrine.

The concepts are not complex and have their origins in equity.

Please take a look at the original complaint from Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc..

Original Complaint

  1. Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc.., 3:22-cv-02482-CRB (N.D. Cal. July 19, 2021).
  2. Exhibit A.
  3. Exhibit B.
  4. Exhibit C.
  5. Exhibit D.

A Different Approach to Arguing State Action Doctrine

I would have written the Original Complaint differently. The Twiqbal Plausibility Requirement can be met without including an exhibit, but I understand why Counsel wrote the complaint as it was written.

I would have argued state action doctrine somewhat differently.

From Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc., 3:22-cv-02482-CRB (N.D. Cal. Aug. 9, 2022).

The nexus test “asks ‘whether there is a sufficiently close nexus between the State and the challenged action of the regulated entity so the action of the latter may be fairly treated as that of the state itself.'” Gorenc v. Salt River Project Agr. Imp. & Power Dist., 869 F.2d 503, 506 (9th Cir. 1989) (citing Jackson v. Metropolitan Edison Co., 419 U.S. 345, 351 (1974)); see also Villegas v. Gilroy Garlic Festival Ass’n, 541 F.3d 950, 955 (9th Cir. 2008) (listing factors to consider, including whether the funds of the organization come from the state and whether state officials dominate its decision-making).

Similarly, the joint action test asks “whether the state has ‘so far insinuated itself into a position of interdependence with [the private entity] that it must be recognized as a joint participant in the challenged activity.” Gorenc, 869 F.2d at 507 (quoting Burton v. Wilmington Parking Auth., 365 U.S. 715, 725 (1961)). “[A] bare allegation of such joint action will not overcome a motion to dismiss.” DeGrassi v. City of Glendora, 207 F.3d 636, 647 (9th Cir. 2000). The Supreme Court has explained:

[A] State normally can be held responsible for a private decision only when it has exercised coercive power or has provided such significant encouragement, either overt or covert, that the choice must in law be deemed to be that of the State. Mere approval of or acquiescence in the initiatives of a private party is not sufficient to justify holding the State responsible for those initiatives. Blum v. Yaretsky, 457 U.S. 991, 1004-05 (1982).

And this circuit requires “substantial cooperation” or that the private entity and government’s actions be “inextricably intertwined.” Brunette v. Humane Society of Ventura Cnty., 294 F.3d 1205, 1211 (9th Cir. 2002). Although “[a] conspiracy between the State and a private party to violate constitutional rights may also satisfy the joint action test,” id., the private and government actors must have actually agreed to “violate constitutional rights,” Fonda v. Gray, 707 F.2d 435, 438 (9th Cir. 1983).

In Burton the Eagle Coffee Shoppe, Inc. was “inextricably intertwined” with Delaware State because the coffee shop was within a structure owned by the Wilmington Parking Authority. The coffee shop did not even have an entrance into the parking garage. Meta/Facebook service is wholly within the structure of the Internet. The Meta/Facebook service is message common carriage of digital personal literary property. The Internet is alleged to have completed its privatization in 2016, but the US government continues to fund the Internet and to maintain substantial control over the Internet pervasively throughout the US Internet substructure as any analysis of the Internet shows. Meta almost always receives or delivers digital personal literary property through the use of a link or other device,

  1. which the US government has either funded or
  2. over which the US government has substantial control.

The US government and Meta are “inextricably intertwined” in the service, which Meta offers — far more than Delaware and Eagle Coffee Shoppe ever were in vending coffee.

Summary

The real issue is the following.

Eric Goldman and his ilk want:

  1. want to cast inequitable discrimination in concrete,
  2. oppose free speech, and
  3. are working to undermine the First Amendment.

To be fair, Eric Gold may simply be misguided because he does not understand how Internet technology works.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Meta/Facebook service is wholly within the structure of the Internet.

the US government continues to fund the Internet and to maintain substantial control over the Internet pervasively throughout the US Internet substructure as any analysis of the Internet shows.

The US government and Meta are “inextricably intertwined” in the service, which Meta offers

As pointed out elsewhere, by this logic, every US-based website on the Internet is a state actor. The argument is ridiculous.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Straw Man Argument from a White Racist or from a Genocide-Supporter

Here is the state action requirement that the Amended Class Action Complaint will fulfill.

The state action requirement refers to the requirement that in order for a plaintiff to have standing to sue over a law being violated, the plaintiff must demonstrate that the government (local, state, or federal), was responsible for the violation, rather than a private actor.

  • If a private actor sets up a public forum in a structure,
  1. which the US federal government funds and
  2. over which the government has substantial influence, and
  • if the private actor makes use of government-funded equipment in this structure,

the government becomes responsible for abridging freedom of speech.

If a private actor does not wish to become a state actor, he has two choices:

  1. he doesn’t run his website as a public forum or
  2. he builds his own Internet,
  • which the government does not fund and
  • over which the government has no influence.

Within two year white racists, who support discrimination by a social medium platform in common carriage, civil rights, and public accommodation when every racist social is bankrupted for its violations.

Hurley v. Irish-American Gay, Lesbian Bisexual Group, 515 U.S. 557, 115 S. Ct. 2338 (1995) does not apply because in the case of a parade, a parade is not a forum for expression but is expression itself.

No one confuses an individual tweet, post, or comment on a social medium platform to be the expression of the social medium platform as one might have confused expression of GLIB with a message that the South Boston Allied War Veterans Council intended to send to the public.

No one ever considered content, which a private actor put into the AT&T Mass Announcement System, to be the expression of AT&T unless AT&T put the content into the AT&T Mass Announcement System even though AT&T owned every piece of its circuit-switched network.

Hurley

  1. supports the contention that alleges a social medium platform is a state actor and
  2. aids the effort to nail every racist discriminatory social medium platform.

I did not come up with that argument. I am channeling my deceased lawyer. I wish he were here to make the argument himself.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If a private actor sets up a public forum in a structure,
which the US federal government funds and
over which the government has substantial influence, and
if the private actor makes use of government-funded equipment in this structure,
the government becomes responsible for abridging freedom of speech.

If a private actor does not wish to become a state actor, he has two choices:

he doesn’t run his website as a public forum or
he builds his own Internet

First, how do you define “public forum?” Under the definition I’m familiar with, it means something akin to the “town square” which it has been well-established that social media is NOT.

Second, given you have already described the Internet as something “which the US federal government funds and over which the government has substantial influence,” then, again, this would make any US-based site allowing user comment a state actor.

No one ever considered content, which a private actor put into the AT&T Mass Announcement System, to be the expression of AT&T unless AT&T put the content into the AT&T Mass Announcement System even though AT&T owned every piece of its circuit-switched network.

and yet if it was “the government” instead of AT&T, your argument does consider such content the expression of the government.

Finally,

Straw Man Argument from a White Racist or from a Genocide-Supporter

  1. What is the strawman? I directly quoted your points I was arguing against. You may disagree with the conclusion that I reached, but that doesn’t make it a strawman.
  2. Prove that I am a white racist or a genocide supporter. That I think your arguments are weak and flawed makes me neither. It just means I think your arguments are weak and flawed.
ThorsProvoni says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Prove that I am a white racist or a genocide supporter.

If you’re a supporter of freedom of speech, especially that of marginalized people, and you believe in the 1st Amendent prohibition on governmental control of people’s speech, then you’re obviously a white racist and a genocide supporter.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Easy to show a Zionist anti-Jew is a racial supremacist genocide-supporter!

Martin McMahon has already done so in the Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit.

See Al-Tamimi v. Adelson, 916 F.3d 1 (D.C. Cir. 2019).

A social medium platform if an obvious state actor, common carrier, and public accommodation.

If you support continued discrimination by a social medium platform in state action, in civil rights, in common carriage, and in public accommodation, you self-evidence that you are a white racist and scum,

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Typo Warning -- "If" Should Have Been "Is"

The text have been the following.

A social medium platform IS an obvious state actor, common carrier, and public accommodation.

If you support continued discrimination by a social medium platform in state action, in civil rights, in common carriage, and in public accommodation, you self-evidence that you are a white racist and scum,

Brain-Dead Anonymous Coward (BD AC) either lies or does not know how frontend-backend intercommunication works in then Internet.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Typo Warning -- Left Out SHOULD

I should have my morning coffee before commenting.

The text SHOULD have been the following.

A social medium platform IS an obvious state actor, common carrier, and public accommodation.

If you support continued discrimination by a social medium platform in state action, in civil rights, in common carriage, and in public accommodation, you self-evidence that you are a white racist and scum,

Brain-Dead Anonymous Coward (BD AC) either lies or does not know how frontend-backend intercommunication works in then Internet.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I already explained to BD AC how the digital message common carriage takes place in the context of an Electronic Notice Board.

You’ve had your explanation torn to shreds multiple times before. What makes you think we should give it any more credibility now than we did before when nothing, including the state of binding legal precedents regarding social media/interactive web services, has changed since the last time everyone here tore your bullshit apart?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 An ISP Provides Common Carriage of a Transport Layer Packet

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet, about which an ISP knows nothing.

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet

  1. in exchange for work (“eyes on a page”),
  2. in exchange for barter (content), and
  3. in exchange for a fee to increase the number of users that see the tweet.
יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Exactly How Telegraph Service Worked over the Telephone Network

TWX (Teletypewriter Exchange Service) used the public switched telephone network. In other words, telex common carriage ran over telephone network common carriage.

The nitwit supporters of social medium platform discrimination almost invariably know

  1. nothing about digital transmission technology or about the history of digital transmission technology and
  2. even less about the associated law.
Raziel says:

Re: Re: Re:11

The nitwit supporters of social medium platform discrimination almost invariably know

1. nothing about digital transmission technology or about the history of digital transmission technology and
2. even less about the associated law.

I guess that makes you a nitwit supporter of social media platform discrimination, then.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet, about which an ISP knows nothing.

Yes or no: Can you cite a binding legal precedent that affirms your theory? Please note that your failed lolsuit is not a binding legal precedent. Also note that repeating your theories over and over doesn’t make them binding legal precedent.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet, about which an ISP knows nothing.

And postal services carry letters and parcels about which they nothing. That does not make the senders and receivers of those items common carriers, but simply like Twitter etc. a user of common carrier services.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Anonymous Clown is too Ignorant for Words

Even in 1869 the General Court of Massachusetts understood that one carrier could make use of another carrier.

MGL c.159 s.1

Every common carrier of merchandise or other property shall receive, transport and forward all property offered for such purposes by other such carriers as promptly, faithfully and impartially, at as low rates of charge, and in a manner and on terms and conditions as favorable to the carrier offering such property, as he on the same day and at the same place receives, forwards and transports, in the ordinary course of business, property of a like description offered by persons other than such carriers. Such carrier shall not discriminate against any particular person or subject him to any undue or unreasonable prejudice or disadvantage. The supreme judicial or superior court shall have jurisdiction in equity to enforce this section.

Anonymous Clown is too ignorant and stupid to understand that one envelope can contain another envelope.

Twitter message common carrier software puts a tweet (the message) into an HTTP message envelope. This HTTP message envelope is handed to system software, which puts the HTTP message envelope (the packet data) into a TCP/IP packet envelope. The TCP/IP packet envelope is used by at least one ISP to deliver the TCP/IP packet envelop to the destination computing device. System software delivers the HTTP message envelope contained in the TCP/IP packet envelop to a listening application. Except for the initial HTTP GET/RESPONSE handshake of a listening browser or app, which extracts Twitter message common carrier software from the HTTP RESPONSE, the destination computing device can’t do anything with the HTTP message envelop except discard it unless Twitter message common carrier software is running on the destination computing device.

ISP software enables the packet common carriage of the TCP/IP packet envelope. Twitter software enables the message common carriage of the HTTP message envelope.

Twitter is a common carrier of an HTTP message envelope, which Twitter software puts into a TCP/IP packet envelope so that the ISP can perform TCP/IP packet common carriage of the TCP/IP packet envelope, which contains the HTTP message envelope, which Twitter common carriage software carries end-to-end.

Anonymous Clown is too ignorant and too stupid for words.

I understood protocol/envelope layering when I was programming an IBM 7090 in grammar school. Does Anonymous Clown know as much as a 7 year old? Apparently not.

BTW, Eric Goldman is clueless with respect to this technology and with respect to this type of common carriage. His legal area is creative intellect property law and trademark law (Title 17 and Title 15). I see nothing, which evidences that he has expertise in Title 35 (inventive intellectual property law) or in Title 47 (transmission technology). His CV suggests that he does not have the qualifications to take the patent bar examination.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Among Other Things I am a Full Stack Developer

I write frontends and backends.

There are a good number of online courses that explain frontend and backend development.

Such online courses are self-evidently beyond the comprehension of Anonymous Coward/Anonymous Nitwit.

I am preparing such a presentation for my legal team. Unfortunately, because I am a party in Martillo v. Twitter, I cannot provide an expert report or expert testimony on subject.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

By your theories, if write and send, and receive and write letters via the postal service, you have become a common carrier, and that makes as much sense as calling twitter a common carrier. Also, by your definitions, backends and frontends limited to a local network are also common carriers. Both of those conclusions do make sense, because you are confusing writing, reading, storage and recovery of letters and messages via a filing cabinet an act of common carriage.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

There are a good number of online courses that explain frontend and backend development.

First you work in finance, then as a lawyer, and now you’re a software developer? Guess that’s three more to add to the list of lies you’ve told about yourself, headed by your being the offspring of an ethnic Sephardim Ashkenazi Jewish father and Berber mother.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

A social medium platform if an obvious state actor, common carrier, and public accommodation.

Key word being “if”. You seem to be the only one with the particular delusion that a private company that doesn’t provide any type of carriage is a common carrier. You are also racist scum, going by your pretense of being mixed race Jewish as an excuse for your ad hom attacks on others.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 DE BD AC's ignorance of law is almost vicariously embarrassing.

forums from law@Cornell

Overview

A forum in First Amendment law refers to the place in which a speaker speaks. The First Amendment’s protections regarding the right to speak and assemble will vary based on the speakers’ chosen forum. In Perry Educ. Ass’n v. Perry Educators’ Ass’n, 460 U.S. 37 (1983), the Supreme Court divided forums into three types: traditional public forums, designated forums, and nonpublic forums.

Traditional Public Forums

Traditional public forums include public parks, sidewalks and areas that have been traditionally open to political speech and debate. Speakers in these areas enjoy the strongest First Amendment protections. In traditional public forums, the government may not discriminate against speakers based on the speakers’ views. Doing so is called viewpoint discrimination, which is prohibited under the First Amendment. The government may, however, subject speech to reasonable, content-neutral restrictions on its time, place, and manner. When considering government restrictions of speech in traditional public forums, courts use strict scrutiny. When the government restricts speech in a traditional public forum, strict scrutiny dictates that restrictions are allowed only if they serve a compelling state interest and are narrowly tailored to meet the needs of that interest.

A plethora of electronic BBSs have existed since 1973 (e.g., Community Memory) — 50 years ago.

I used to program a computer,

  1. whose logic circuity was tube-based and
  2. which was so large that it was building which I entered to program it.

[A building-size computer system/digital telephone switch can still be found in a telephone network but without tube-based logic. Such a computer system typically does not have its own building but uses one to a plurality of floors in a telephone company business location.]

History moves so fast today that a period of 50 years is like an eon in the period before the Digital Revolution. An on-line social discussion system has become a traditional public forum, which is comparable to a sidewalk or to a message wall like the Democracy Wall in Beijing.

I could persuasively argue this point, and after the Amended Class Action Complaint is filed, a top US litigator will even more persuasively argue the above assertion.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 DE BD AC Continues to Show Abysmal and Almost Vicariously Embarrassing Legal Ignorance!

Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, 139 S. Ct. 1921 (2019) is an extremely narrow decision and provides no guidance with respect to a social medium platform or with respect to the Internet.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Oh, now you done did it. BEHOLD, EPIC COPYPASTA!

Social media services are not public fora. Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, a Supreme Court ruling from 2019 for which Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh wrote the majority opinion, doesn’t directly address social media but still provides the logic necessary to counter any “yes they are public fora” argument:

Under the Court’s cases, a private entity may qualify as a state actor when it exercises “powers traditionally exclusively reserved to the State.” … It is not enough that the federal, state, or local government exercised the function in the past, or still does. And it is not enough that the function serves the public good or the public interest in some way. Rather, to qualify as a traditional, exclusive public function within the meaning of our state-action precedents, the government must have traditionally and exclusively performed the function.

The Court has stressed that “very few” functions fall into that category. … Under the Court’s cases, those functions include, for example, running elections and operating a company town. … The Court has ruled that a variety of functions do not fall into that category, including, for example: running sports associations and leagues, administering insurance payments, operating nursing homes, providing special education, representing indigent criminal defendants, resolving private disputes, and supplying electricity. …

When the government provides a forum for speech (known as a public forum), the government may be constrained by the First Amendment, meaning that the government ordinarily may not exclude speech or speakers from the forum on the basis of viewpoint, or sometimes even on the basis of content[.]

By contrast, when a private entity provides a forum for speech, the private entity is not ordinarily constrained by the First Amendment because the private entity is not a state actor. The private entity may thus exercise editorial discretion over the speech and speakers in the forum. This Court so ruled in its 1976 decision in Hudgens v. NLRB. There, the Court held that a shopping center owner is not a state actor subject to First Amendment requirements such as the public forum doctrine[.]

The Hudgens decision reflects a commonsense principle: Providing some kind of forum for speech is not an activity that only governmental entities have traditionally performed. Therefore, a private entity who provides a forum for speech is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor. After all, private property owners and private lessees often open their property for speech. Grocery stores put up community bulletin boards. Comedy clubs host open mic nights. As Judge Jacobs persuasively explained, it “is not at all a near-exclusive function of the state to provide the forums for public expression, politics, information, or entertainment[”.]

In short, merely hosting speech by others is not a traditional, exclusive public function and does not alone transform private entities into state actors subject to First Amendment constraints.

If the rule were otherwise, all private property owners and private lessees who open their property for speech would be subject to First Amendment constraints and would lose the ability to exercise what they deem to be appropriate editorial discretion within that open forum. Private property owners and private lessees would face the unappetizing choice of allowing all comers or closing the platform altogether. “The Constitution by no means requires such an attenuated doctrine of dedication of private property to public use.” … Benjamin Franklin did not have to operate his newspaper as “a stagecoach, with seats for everyone.” … That principle still holds true. As the Court said in Hudgens, to hold that private property owners providing a forum for speech are constrained by the First Amendment would be “to create a court-made law wholly disregarding the constitutional basis on which private ownership of property rests in this country.” … The Constitution does not disable private property owners and private lessees from exercising editorial discretion over speech and speakers on their property. …

A private entity … who opens its property for speech by others is not transformed by that fact alone into a state actor.

In 2020, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals directly cited Halleck as part of the ruling in Prager University v. Google LLC, a case in which PragerU claimed YouTube was a public forum due to the ubiquity and the public-facing nature of YouTube:

PragerU argues that the pervasiveness of YouTube binds it to the First Amendment because Marsh teaches that “[t]he more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the … constitutional rights of those who use it.” … PragerU’s reliance on Marsh is not persuasive. In Marsh, the Court held that a private entity operating a company town is a state actor and must abide by the First Amendment. … But in Lloyd Corp. and Hudgens, the Court unequivocally confined Marsh’s holding to the unique and rare context of “company town[s]” and other situations where the private actor “perform[s] the full spectrum of municipal powers.” …

YouTube does not fit the bill. Unlike the company town in Marsh, YouTube merely operates a platform for user- generated video content; it does not “perform[] all the necessary municipal functions,” … nor does it operate a digital business district that has “all the characteristics of any other American town[.]” …

YouTube also does not conduct a quintessential public function through regulation of speech on a public forum. … To characterize YouTube as a public forum would be a paradigm shift.

And in 2022, the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals cited Halleck as part of a ruling in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida:

Not in their wildest dreams could anyone in the Founding generation have imagined Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, or TikTok. But “whatever the challenges of applying the Constitution to ever-advancing technology, the basic principles of freedom of speech and the press, like the First Amendment’s command, do not vary when a new and different medium for communication appears.” … One of those “basic principles”—indeed, the most basic of the basic—is that “[t]he Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment constrains governmental actors and protects private actors.” … Put simply, with minor exceptions, the government can’t tell a private person or entity what to say or how to say it.

(To keep this copypasta from getting way too long for its own good, I suggest going to the relevant link and reading that article.)

So yeah, legal precedent says social media services are not public fora in the sense that they must host all legally protected speech. If you want to claim the law says otherwise, you have one hell of a (legal) hill to climb⁠—especially since I have three legal citations to support my position and you have [checks notes] none to support yours.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Prager argued his case stupidly

In Burton the Eagle Coffee Shoppe, Inc. was “inextricably intertwined” with Delaware State because the coffee shop was within a structure owned by the Wilmington Parking Authority. The coffee shop did not even have an entrance into the parking garage. Meta/Facebook service is wholly within the structure of the Internet.

The Meta/Facebook service is message common carriage of digital personal literary property.

The Internet is alleged to have completed its privatization in 2016, but the US government continues to fund the Internet and to maintain substantial control over the Internet pervasively throughout the US Internet substructure as any analysis of the Internet shows. Meta almost always receives or delivers digital personal literary property through the use of a link or other device,

  1. which the US government has either funded or
  2. over which the US government has substantial control.

The US government and Meta are “inextricably intertwined” in the service, which Meta offers — far more than Delaware and Eagle Coffee Shoppe ever were in vending coffee.

In contrast, state action precedents did not apply in Manhattan Community Access Corp. v. Halleck, 139 S. Ct. 1921 (2019). MCA Corp unlike a 2022 social medium platform was not delivering content through the use of a link or other device,

  1. which the US government has either funded or
  2. over which the US government has substantial control.
Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:8

In Burton the Eagle Coffee Shoppe, Inc. was “inextricably intertwined” with Delaware State because the coffee shop was within a structure owned by the Wilmington Parking Authority.

Actually, it was because the coffee shop had been rented to the business owners specifically to raise revenues for the running of the parking garage, a relationship that Meta et al. don’t have with the Internet, but nice show of ignorance on your part. Tell me, are you deliberately stupid or is it a fashion statement?

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Confusing an Instance with a Principle

The US government is not a cash-strapped state agency. The US government prints money.

The US government buys, funds, exercises substantial control over internet links and devices that a social medium uses in order to provide common carriage and a place of public accommodation.

A social medium platform is inextricably intertwined with the US federal government in a way AT&T and the RBOCs never were. Most Internet infrastructure that a social medium platform uses does not belong to the social medium platform.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 A SCOTUS Precedent More Relevant than Halleck.

Rubenfeld argues that Skinner v. Railway Labor Executives’ Assn, 489 U.S. 602, 109 S. Ct. 1402 (1989) is on point with regard to the state actor status of a social medium platform. See Are Facebook and Google State Actors?.

Rubenfeld blogged the state actor status of a social medium platform three times.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Rubenfeld blogged the state actor status of a social medium platform three times.

So what? A blog entry is not a binding legal precedent. Halleck and the two subsequent court rulings I mentioned are binding legal precedents. When a blog entry can strip away the power of the Supreme Court and two federal district courts, or a court uses Skinner to definitively declare interactive web services to be state actors/public fora, you let me know. Until then: Halleck, PragerU, and NetChoice are far more binding on this matter than Skinner, and producing a blog entry that says otherwise is less an argument and more an admission that you have nothing substantial to support your position.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

A social medium platform and the Internet constitute something new in law.

Section 230 existed well before Twitter and its ilk ever did. Social media platforms are interactive web services, and those services are not state actors only because they happen to exist on the Internet. Find a legal precedent that says otherwise⁠—your failed court case doesn’t count⁠—or fuck off back to the same hole of irrelevance from which you oozed out.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Section 230 Caselaw Is Crap

Section 230 applies to an ICS, which in 1996 was a usually dialup Internet On-Ramp like 1996 AOL, Prodigy, or CompuServe

  1. which had its own private network and
  2. which provided a portal onto the Internet.

Section 230 does not apply to a 2022 social medium platform,

  1. which is wholly with the Internet and
  2. which is not an ICS as ICS is defined in Section 230.

I did not make this argument for the first round of litigation because it requires an expert report during the discovery phase and expert testimony during the trial phase.

The litigation went immediately to the Court of Appeals before summons without any proceedings in district court.

Section 230 caselaw, which is based on Zeran, is fecal matter, which was created by applying logical fallacy.

In Erie R. Co. v. Tompkins, 304 U.S. 64, 58 S. Ct. 817 (1938), SCOTUS overruled Swift v. Tyson, 41 U.S. 1, 10 L. Ed. 865 (1842) after almost 100 years had passed.

This SCOTUS believes not in established caselaw but in Constitutionally correct caselaw.

If this SCOTUS concludes Zeran-caselaw is based on logically fallacious reasoning as this SCOTUS will conclude, this SCOTUS will overrule Zeran-caselaw in an instant without a 2nd thought.

Section 230 will remain, but it will only be applied if the USA returns to using 1996 networking technology.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Section 230 does not apply to a 2022 social medium platform,

Section 230’s own authors have debunked that lie already. Not only did they anticipate the rise of today’s large information service platforms, CDA 230 was made to explicitly encourage their existence and protect the constitutional free speech of their moderation choices from free-speech-hating genocide-supporting terrorists like you.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13 Nothing Really Wrong with § 230

I read through 2020 09 17 Cox Wyden FCC Reply Comments Final[2]. I don’t disagree with anything the authors say, but there is no indication that tells us the authors understand the huge differences between a 1996 ICS and a 2022 Social Medium Platform.

In the end SCOTUS will reach a ruling on the basis of the text. If SCOTUS needs more information, SCOTUS will try to determine the intent of Congress as a whole at the time of enactment and will not pay attention to the claims of individual authors decades later.

The problem of § 230 lies with Zeran-based caselaw and with treating a 2022 social medium platform like a 1996 ICS.

I analyzed § 230 before I started the litigation. A 2022 social medium platform is not a 1996 ICS as it is defined in § 230.

Here is my analysis.

  1. What Is an Interactive Computer Service by Careful Grammatical and Syntactic Analysis?
  2. So What was a 1996 § 230 Access Software Provider?
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

there is no indication that tells us the authors understand the huge differences between a 1996 ICS and a 2022 Social Medium Platform

The only difference between the two is time and functionality. An interactive computer service is still an ICS regardless of whether it’s a phpBB forum, a Mastodon instance, or the comments sections of this blog. Until the law says otherwise, your assertion is a mere opinion⁠—one that you trot out as the reason you believe you (and only you, apparently…) should have the right to legally force, under penalty of legal consequences, other people into hosting your speech/subsidizing your online presence.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Publicly Accessible Sidewalks are Often Not Publicly Owned but Remain a Public Forum

I own the property where the city put a public sidewalk in front of my house. The public has an easement to use the public sidewalk, and the public sidewalk throughout the city constitutes a public forum.

The only shit-for-brains racists in this forum are those that want to give a social medium platform license to discriminate in state action, public accommodation, common carriage, and civil rights.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The Internet analog is that you have a right to connect to the Internet, but that does not extend to properties that it passes by. That is the ISP you use to connect to the Internet should be classified as a common carrier, but that classification does not extend to social media. Also, the 1st amendment is applicable in the case of government run sites and government use of social media, it does not apply in general to sites and services that are on the Internet.

To amplify the last point, a government official using social media for official business cannot block user from their feed, However it does not mean that the service can’t block a user from using the service..

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

  • If a private actor sets up a public forum in a structure,
  1. which the US federal government funds and
  2. over which the government has substantial influence, and

– if the private actor makes use of government-funded equipment in this structure,
the government becomes responsible for abridging freedom of speech.

That’s true. Your problem, however, remains in proving how any of this is true of the Internet, especially the private companies that operate on it and on which the government doesn’t rely on funding except through ordinary taxation. As others have pointed out so often before, the decision reached in Burton v. Wilmington Parking Authority doesn’t apply to social media.

P.S. What killed your lawyer? An aneurysm secondary to realizing the brain power of his client?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Stop being stupid, and learn something about the law!

There is a principle, and then there is an instance.

The principle is intertwining. The instance is the payment of a leasing fee to a cash-strapped state agency.

The US government prints money. It’s not cash-strapped even though legislators often claim the US government is.

The US government is intertwined with a social medium platform

  1. because the US government is pervasive throughout the structure of the Internet and
  2. because a 2022 Social Medium Platform unlike a 1996 ICS is wholly within the Internet.

I explained some of the ways in which a social medium platform is intertwined with the US government through the structure of the Internet.

There are at least 50 or so more ways that create intertwining.

This is a pure equity issue.

A social medium platform is intertwined with the US government.

All Americans provide free funding to a social medium platform through the tax system and by adding to the structure of the Internet.

Because of the intertwining a social medium platform does not have complete freedom of speech — just as no common carrier has complete freedom of speech.

A social medium platform should not be able to abridge freedom of speech.

A social medium platform should not be able to discriminate

  1. in public accommodation,
  2. in civil rights, or
  3. in public accommodation.

Rubenfeld’s argument, which is different and perhaps not as strong, supports the contention of intertwining.

In a civil trial, one can argue in the alternative.

Face facts. It’s an issue that cuts across right and left. I probably have at least SCOTUS 4 Justices on my side and will probably persuade the other 5. Every major social medium platform is toast.

If McMahon (my deceased attorney) is correct and he has been correct about everything else so far, on remand the case will go directly to SCOTUS from a 3 judge district court panel without going through a Court of Appeals and petitioning for certiorari.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The US government is intertwined with a social medium platform

because the US government is pervasive throughout the structure of the Internet and
because a 2022 Social Medium Platform unlike a 1996 ICS is wholly within the Internet.

By your argument, it is also true that:

The US government is intertwined with every US-based website

  1. because the US government is pervasive throughout the structure of the Internet and
  2. because a 2022 website unlike a 1996 ICS is wholly within the Internet.

Again, this argument makes every US-based website a state actor. The argument is ridiculous.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 The Defective Logic of AC

A website does not have to hold itself out in the role of a public form.

I never held out EAAZI to be a public forum. I read and approved all content that went up on the EAAZI website. I used the model of a traditional publisher.

If a social medium platform does not want to be a public forum, it can follow the traditional “Letters to the Editor Model”.

If a website makes a shitload of money by offering

  1. a public forum,
  2. a place of public accommodation for exhibition and for exhibition,
  3. a place of public accommodation for retailing, and
  4. common carriage,
  • the social medium platform cannot abridge the freedom of speech of a user,
  • the social medium must not discriminate in public accommodation, civil rights, and common carriage.

Otherwise the social medium platform is a means of racism and genocide-support — the reason a depraved evil racial supremacist anti-Jew so strongly wants the social medium platform to escape Constitution obligations and the requirements of equity.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Problem: the word ‘carriage’ in the context of the Internet means the conveying of data from browser to server and vice versa. Adding the word ‘common’ in front means the conveying is taken on behalf of everyone. That conveyance is undertaken for a set fee by the ISPs, not the browsers and servers to which they convey data. Twitter is on a server, and therefore has data conveyed to and from it, it doesn’t convey any data itself. This is all secondary school-level stuff in the UK. Why is it that you don’t understand it?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 DE BD AC Continues to Show Abysmal and Almost Vicariously Embarrassing Legal Ignorance!

Twitter embarrassed itself over and over again in Twitter’s Appellee’s Brief in Martillo v. Twitter (First Circuit, 21-1921).

From Appellant’s Reply to Twitter’s Appellee’s Brief in Martillo v. Twitter (First Circuit, 21-1921).

Common Carriage

Twitter evinces a common confusion of those with little familiarity with Title 47 and the associated caselaw. In the context of Title 47, the FCC, the Court of Appeals for the DC circuit, and the Supreme Court of the United States often refer to a telecommunications common carrier by the sloppy shorthand phrase “common carrier”.[10] From the standpoint of the FCC and Title 47, an interstate trucker, which holds out common carriage, is not a (telecommunications) common carrier.

This instant Reply is not to appropriate place to discuss the basics of interstate telecommunications common carriage law. AT&T offered a 20 hour course on the basics to a Member of Technical Staff (MTS), who was assigned the task of working with the legal staff on legal filings. If cert is granted in the parallel Supreme Court case, whose petition [is before SCOTUS] and which goes to conference on March 25, there will be a plethora of amici briefs.

The FCC has the administrative authority to determine whether a service is a telecommunications service. Only if a service is a telecommunications service can it be an FCC-regulated telecommunications service. Like the aforementioned interstate trucker that provides common carriage service, an ICS that provides only an information service, which the FCC does not classify to be a telecommunications service, can still provide common carriage service that is neither a telecommunication service nor FCC-regulated.

[10] Joachim admits he often used this sloppy shorthand when he worked at AT&T on FCC filings for tariffing and for other telecommunications common carriage issues. There is no shame when someone not experienced with telecommunications law is unfamiliar with the epistemic vocabulary of telecommunications law. The areas of telecommunications technology and of telecommunications law have their own peculiar jargons, which can be strange to people, who are only familiar with the Internet/WWW.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Stephen T. Stone Knows Nothing about Legal Procedure.

Martillo v. Twitter was not lost. A special procedural rule sent the case directly to the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit before summons and service of the Original Complaint on the Defendants.

I am trying to convince the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit to overrule all Zeran-based caselaw before the case even starts in district court. In this way, the case creates a circuit-split before the trial takes place and whatever the outcome of the trial is.

The lead judge on the panel is the former chief judge of the Court of Appeals — he was chief judge when the case first came before him. I hope that the panel will remand to a three judge district court panel. Then any decision goes to direct appeal to SCOTUS without first going to the Court of Appeals and without requiring petition for writ of certiorari to the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 Petition for Cert before Judgment is almost always denied

In this case, there simply were not enough rulings from a lower court to review.

I know all the active Justices and many Federal Appeals Court Judges, who attended Harvard or Yale. Once the case started, I could not speak with any Justice ex parte.

A petition for cert is not ex parte communication.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11 There Never Was a Case in District Court

The defendants were never summonsed to district court, but I was happy that Twitter and Medium barged into the Court of Appeals.

They showed by their actions that there was a genuine legal controversy that should be tried in district court.

I always love it when I work for a plaintiff and a defendant helps me make my case for me — almost like a soccer game in which a player scores a goal for the opposing team.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

They showed by their actions that there was a genuine legal controversy that should be tried in district court.

Or, y’know, they were saying “there is no controversy, this is settled legal precedent and he’s trying to overturn it only because he’s butthurt about not being able to make us host his speech”.

Which you are.

For what reason should you have the unlimited, unmitigated, untouchable legal right to force an interactive web service into hosting your speech⁠—a right no one, not even the fucking President of the United States, can say they have?

Raziel says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Guess what, numbnuts? A store offers a place of public accomodation for shopping, but they can still kick your ass out if you’re abusive to the people who work there (breaking their rules) or they catch you shoplifting (breaking the law), and you can’t sue them for discrimination even if you’re a black amputee living below the breadline just trying to feed your family.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Your definition keeps changing. Sometimes you include that the website must be a “public forum,” (not that you’ve defined what you mean by that term), sometimes you don’t. Now you’ve added “If a website makes a shitload of money by offering…”

So let’s assume that what you really mean is for each of these conditions you mentioned to be part of the definition, and I’ll define “public forum” to mean “accepts and displays user-submitted content without prior review” as that seems to be your intent.

Therefore, according to you, Twitter is a state actor because it runs on the Internet, which is allegedly funded and influenced by the US government, it is a “public forum” and it makes a lot of money.

So, suppose a website exists. It allows user-submitted content without prior review. It exists on the Internet. It makes money. Therefore, by your argument, it must be considered a state actor. Any website that meets these conditions must, or your argument doesn’t hold water.

By your definition, Ebay is therefore a state actor. Craigslist is therefore a state actor. Youtube is therefore a state actor. Etsy is therefore a state actor. Steam is therefore a state actor. stardewvalley.net is therefore a state actor. Any website that uses Simple Machines Forum and has a PayPal “Donate” Button is therefore a state actor.

Your argument is ridiculous.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: I'm Not My Own Lawyer

I developed the legal strategy with a top Washington civil rights lawyer, who died a month before the case was to be filed. I contributed my extensive knowledge of common carriage in the context of digital transmission systems as well my expertise in the development of Internet technology.

I have all my lawyer’s notes with respect to the ongoing litigation. He thought through the crap that a white racist or a genocide-supporter would shovel at me in order

  1. to support discrimination in common carriage, civil rights, and public accommodation as well as
  2. to suppress discussion of ongoing federal capital crimes by millions of people under US federal jurisdiction.

My lawyer provided a compelling legal argument against almost every possible ridiculous assertion a white racist or a depraved genocide-supporter would make, but I can’t be sure my lawyer covered everything.

Why do you think I bother to interact with a bunch of legal nitwits?

There is always the possibility that a white racist clown might come up with an argument, which my lawyer’s notes doesn’t refute. I don’t want to be broadsided during the litigation.

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re:

Burton doesn’t apply in your case. It held that people can’t be refused service just because they’re black, it didn’t say that a black guy couldn’t be barred if he walked into the coffee shop and pulled out a gun. You were banned from multiple social media sites because of your behaviour, not because you’re ‘Jewish’ and have a Palestinian wife.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re:

Cut off from my previous comment:

The other reason Burton doesn’t apply in your case is that if the Eagle Coffee Shoppe had closed down, the Wilmington Parking Authority would have lost a source of funding at least for a time, whereas if Facebook or Twitter closes down, the Internet won’t suffer. Not only that, but the state government of Delaware owned the Midtown Parking Center, whereas no government asserts ownership over the Internet even though the US Government built the ARPANet that was its basis. IANAL, you are. So why do I know this better than you?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Naughty Autie Is an Ignorant Clown

The US government is in ICANN GAC. ISOC carries out US policy. The government exerts control and influence all over the Internet.

Did you ever hear of NYSERNet (New York State Education and Research Network)?

How about all those state college and university networks — not to mention the plethora of other government networks?

How about all that US government support to extend the Internet to every American?

How about all that government money to guarantee that every child has an Internet end host?

[AT&T and the RBOCs were always careful to make sure there was no government or private ownership of any equipment on its telephone network.]

Neither a white racist like Naughty Autie nor a social medium platform, which supports racism and on-going genocide, has a change in court.

Every such social medium platform will be bankrupted for its violations and crimes.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The US government is in ICANN GAC.

Entirely irrelevant. Also no longer quite true.

ISOC carries out US policy.

[citation needed]

The government exerts control and influence all over the Internet.

No more than it does a local restaurant or a newspaper.

Did you ever hear of NYSERNet (New York State Education and Research Network)?

Yes. However, it has nothing to do with internationally used social media sites.

How about all those state college and university networks — not to mention the plethora of other government networks?

Ib id

How about all that US government support to extend the Internet to every American?

Social media is not the internet. Furthermore, the government supporting the extension of the Internet to everyone is not much different from supporting the building of private homes or of convincing companies to build factories somewhere, at least in this case. That doesn’t make anything that happens in private homes or in privately owned factories state action at all. Similarly, the government supporting expansion of internet access doesn’t make anything that happens using the internet state action.

How about all that government money to guarantee that every child has an Internet end host?

Ib id

[AT&T and the RBOCs were always careful to make sure there was no government or private ownership of any equipment on its telephone network.]

So what?

Look, at most, this demonstrates that internet infrastructure is or should be a utility like telephone networks. I would agree with that. This says nothing about services that use the internet (like social media sites) at all, nor does it concern the state-action doctrine at all (which is an entirely different thing).

[…] a white racist like Naughty Autie […]

[citation needed]

Neither a white racist […] nor a social medium platform, which supports racism and on-going genocide, has a chan[c]e in court.

A white racist private individual absolutely “has a chan[c]e in court”. Being racist is not in itself unlawful. It’s only unlawful for a business or organization (or someone in charge of such) to engage in racial discrimination or for someone offering a good or service to the public to discriminate among consumers on racial grounds.

As for the social media platforms, you have not actually alleged facts which, if true, demonstrate that any support racism or on-going genocide. Given that, social media platforms absolutely would “ha[ve] a chan[c]e in court” under your allegations.

Also, anti-discrimination laws like these are not related to the state-action doctrine at all.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

One expects that a cash-strapped state agency and the US government, which prints money, could become inextricably entangled with a private actor in different ways.

Expectations aren’t reality. Can you cite a directly on-point law, statute, or “common law” court ruling that says a privately owned interactive web service is a state actor only because the people who run it live within the borders of the United States and its territories? For that matter, can you cite a legal precedent that says that same service is a U.S. state actor if the people who run the service live in another country but use U.S.-based servers⁠—or if the people who run the service live in the U.S. but used servers based in another country?

(ProTip: Blog posts, failed court cases, and personal prejudices aren’t binding legal precedents.)

That One Guy (profile) says:

That'll show 'em

Of course, discovery is expensive, distracting and time consuming. And Twitter’s lawyers are kinda busy on other matters, so it made sense that the company came to a settlement with Berenson that allowed him back on the site.

Lawyer 1: This guy was such a toxic asshole that after months of sitting on our hands we finally got around to kicking him out, what should we do to make clear that sort of behavior is unacceptable?

Lawyer 2: Hmm, how about we let him back on the site?

Lawyer 1: Won’t that just encourage him and others like him by showing that all they need to do is make enough noise and we’ll fold like wet cardboard?

Lawyer 2: I mean probably but that’s a problem for future us, for the next five minutes at least it’ll work out great.

And, it should be obvious why that’s the right decision. If someone in government merely mused about “this content is problematic” and then as soon as any site took action it became a state actor, effectively any bad faith government official could block the 1st Amendment association and editorial rights of any website. Just get anyone in Congress to express their opinion that “so-and-so shouldn’t be on social media” and then — according to this nonsense theory — that person can never, ever be moderated.

Bigotry, harassment, anti-vax-in-the-middle-of-a-pandemic… Someone would benefit from those sorts of comments being immune from moderation the second someone in power notes that they’re problematic but I just can’t put my finger on who…

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Note: Berenson’s arguments are not the stupidest, most law-illiterate “State Action” claims ever made.

That dishonor most likely goes to bigoted genocidal terrorist ThorsProvoni with his

“A social medium platform, whose business like that of Twitter or like that of Google is intrinsically within the government created and government supported Internet (a public resource), is obviously a state actor and is obviously a message common carrier of digital personal literary property”

dementia.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

And it sadly isn’t dementia.

The man legit believes he should be allowed to “defend” his clearly bigoted views.

Yes, I have seen a sampling of his tweets. Unfortunately, any server host based in sane parts of the world would not want to host that kind of 1A-violating speech. Unless Mr. Provoni is well-connected enough to get reinstated, that is.

Naughty Autie says:

…Nick Clegg—a former U.K. deputy prime minister…

I see what’s happened here. Those making the claim of ‘state action’ have focused on the phrase ‘U.K. deputy prime minister’ whilst completely missing or ignoring the word ‘former’ that comes before it. So their argument is either completely mistaken or being undertaken in bad faith.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Believe what you wish. Your well-substantiated anger against the incels plaguing online cesspools can only be helpful in the long run.

The more righteous outrage is directed at straight males, the stronger the message we send to them that their kind, having long since plundered the resources of this world, being the filthy breeders that they are, will no longer be so willingly tolerated.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

What incels lack in breeding, which is an excellent first step in turning away women from the heteronormative harms inflicted upon them by a chauvinistic culture derived from pornographic expectations (driven by straight men, of course) – they make up for it with violent manifestos, school shootings, and threats against anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

Ostracism is no longer enough to protect ourselves. Incels must be weeded out, brought into the light, and purged. They are the source of everything wrong with the world and without actively working to scour them out of society, violence against women and LGBTQ+ individuals will continue. Nothing short of a complete paradigm shift will do. But the attribution of any blame towards straight males is a healthy step in the right direction.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

https://www.slashfilm.com/898073/bros-trailer-billy-eichner-is-off-the-streets-and-in-the-club-for-a-little-romance/

The trailer for the Bros movie has the line “Remember straight people? They had a good run.” Also, “Gay sex was better before straight people got comfortable with it.” It looks like it’s going to be fun.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

This year I’ve seen Bodies Bodies Bodies, Benediction, and Firebird. (BBB features a lesbian couple prominently, and the other two are all gay male all the time). I also saw the Indian movie Gangubai Kathiawadi which features a transwoman as the antagonist politician.

Last year I saw Flee, Benedetta, Wolf (transanimal!), Titane (transautomobile!), and Joe Bell.

Best of all was Portrait of a Lady on Fire in 2020, which was just impossibly romantic.

Since there’s nothing wrong with being gay, I’m not sure that I would use the word “accused” if someone were to say I was gay because I watched some gay-themed movies. It’s a ridiculous concept anyway. I’m also not a superhero, a starship captain, a porn star, a jockey, an art thief, or any of the hundreds of other characters I’ve seen in films.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

The Racial Supremacist Genocide-Supporting Zionist Anti-Jew Continues to Twist and Spin!

Before appointment to SCOTUS I spoke with one Justice extensively about the underlying issues. At the time I received no indication of agreement.

Court rules are written to make sure even to appearance of bias is avoided. Because a Constitutional principle is implicated, in order to avoid the appearance of bias, since July 2021 I have not spoken with any Justice as I might have before July 2021.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Before appointment to SCOTUS I spoke with one Justice extensively about the underlying issues. At the time I received no indication of agreement.

Are you saying that you believe at least one associate justice on the Supreme Court could potentially have a personal bias in your favor because you had “spoke … extensively” with that associate justice prior to their appointment to SCOTUS?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: The white racial supremacist genocide-supporter continues his spinning and twisting

My words speak for themselves.

As it becomes more obvious to a racist that social medium platform discrimination is going to be slapped down hard, the racist looks for a way to screech illegitimate bias on the part of the Court. I remember such crap from the 50s.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

social medium platform discrimination is going to be slapped down hard

So far as I know, interactive web services based in the U.S. can’t legally prevent entire demographics of people from using said services thanks to anti-discrimination laws. But those laws cover inherent traits (and one or two traits that are chosen, e.g., religious creed). They don’t cover actions⁠—actions like, oh, ones that violate a service’s TOS and can result in someone getting suspended/banned.

But please, go on about how you violating the rules of a service is, legally speaking, the exact same thing as you being discriminated against for your ethnic heritage. Make sure to cite some caselaw to back your bullshit up, too…if you can.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

As it becomes more obvious to a racist that social medium platform discrimination is going to be slapped down hard, the racist looks for a way to screech illegitimate bias on the part of the Court.

Whether or not Truth Social et al.’s discrimination gets slapped down, you’ve as much cause to screech illegitimate bias on the part of the court as you have to screech racism and support of genocide on the part of actually legally knowledgable commenters here.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

The Legal Nitwit Continues to Show His Ignorance and his Evil

A common carrier must carry my speech even if the carrier disagrees with it.

It’s more or less the general rule of equity. If one makes use of public resources intrinsically in order to do business, ability to discriminate against a segment of the public is restricted.

A vicious bloodthirsty racial supremacist genocide-supporter like Stephen T. Stone objects to the basic meaning of

  1. State Action Doctrine,
  2. Common Carriage Doctrine,
  3. Civil Rights Doctrine, and
  4. Public Accommodation Doctrine.

We should not be surprised at the objection of such an atrocious bigot to fundamental fairness.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

A common carrier must carry my speech even if the carrier disagrees with it.

And as soon as interactive web services are deemed common carriers under the letter and spirit of the law, you let me know. Until then: You don’t have a right to make anyone host your speech and you can’t cite a single legal ruling that says otherwise.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: An Interactive Web Service in General is Not a Common Carrier

To meet the definition of a common carrier, a carrier must hold out carriage to the public for a fee under uniform terms. Every social medium platform provides common carriage service even if every interactive web service does not.

In the next step, in Martillo v. Twitter, the plaintiff will demonstrate that each social medium platform is a common carrier according to Massachusetts caselaw. The case is in federal court under 28 U.S. Code § 1332 – Diversity of citizenship; amount in controversy; costs.

At this stage, the Plaintiff is trying to persuade the Court of Appeals to order the District Court to carry out summons because the District Court abused discretion in dismissing the Original Complaint before summons.

The legal reasoning of the dismissal was unsound for two fundamental reasons even if the Appellant’s Brief [21-1921] listed 9 reasons that indicated the unsoundness of the District Court’s legal reasoning.

Reason 1.

All Zeran-based caselaw is unsound (and represents an outrageous Constitutional violation) because the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit reached its decision in Zeran by using the logical fallacy, which is commonly called denial of the antecedent.

Reason 2.

The District Court’s dismissal applied a voice common carriage precedent to assert that the Defendants were not liable for a monetary penalty, which is to be paid to the Plaintiff. This monetary penalty pertains to denial of message common carriage of digital personal literary property according to MGL c. 159 s. 1 & 2, which the General Court of Massachusetts enacted in 1869.

Will an Appellate Ruling Be Published and Precedential?

It will probably be published, but the Court of Appeals probably will only reject this caselaw for the First Circuit. It will be left to SCOTUS to overrule Zeran-based caselaw, which is logical garbage.

The Court of Appeals will probably rule that Am. Tel. & Tel. Co. v. IMR Cap. Corp., 888 F. Sup. 221 (D. Mass. 1995) is an irrelevant district court case.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Carriage in the physical and logical sense is the transport of something between end points in a system. Social media does not offer carriage, but rather a notice board. That is the do not attempt delivery of any post, just a place to display it for others to see. There are tools for people to organize and filter what they see, but that does not include the carriage requirement of you saying deliver this to.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Brain Dead Anonymous Coward (BD AC) is Too Ignorant for Words

The nitwit seems to believe that the Internet works by magic.

The nitwit states the following.

Carriage in the physical and logical sense is the transport of something between end points in a system. Social media does not offer carriage, but rather a notice board. That is the do not attempt delivery of any post, just a place to display it for others to see. There are tools for people to organize and filter what they see, but that does not include the carriage requirement of you saying deliver this to.

Where is the actual board?

An electronic bulletin board is an elementary example of virtual reality.

The server, which belongs to the Electronic Notice Board (ENB) company, accesses a database, which contains all the notice information. The server gathers all the notice information creates an HTTP document (digital personal literary property or an electronic format message. The server uses web resources to cause the message to be carried — a common carrier may employ another carrier — to software

  1. that the server had already downloaded to the ENB user’s computing device and
  2. that runs in the context of the ENB user’s browser.

The above applies to a laptop/desktop computing device. If the user has a mobile computing device, he may have installed an app,

  1. which is specific to the ENB service and
  2. which is licensed from the ENB company.

In both cases (laptop/desktop computing device verses mobile computing device), the message has been carried from the server to the end user’s computing device under the control of software of the ENB company.

If the ENB company holds such message carriage out to the public for a fee under uniform terms, the ENB company provides a common carriage service.

BD AC is an utterly ignorant clown.

BD AC is the epitome of a meathead or — as we say in Yiddish — אַ שטיק פֿלײש מיט צװײ אױגן (a piece of meat with two eyes).

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 An ISP Provides Common Carriage of a Transport Layer Packet

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet, about which an ISP knows nothing.

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet

  1. in exchange for work (“eyes on a page”),
  2. in exchange for barter (content), and
  3. in exchange for a fee to increase the number of users that see the tweet.

BD AC needs to start calling himself Anonymous Nitwit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If the ENB company holds such message carriage

A carriage company offers an attempt to deliver, while a notice board does not offer any attempt at delivery. Or to put it another way, a common carrier is provided address or phone number to which they are to attempt delivery. With a notice board, I may put an intended recipient name on the notice, but that is not used by the notice boars provider to attempt to make a delivery.

Another example cold callers use the phone system to make their pitch, but that does not make them common carriers.

Social media uses ISP’s, but that does not make them common carriers.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Ignorant Nitwit is As Ignorant Nitwit Comments

Once a social medium platform serves its software/web page to the user’s computing device in response to the initial HTTP GET request, software of the social medium platform performs digital message common carriage between the social medium platform’s server and user’s computing device.

The point is simple, and only someone semi-educated in the technology seems unable to comprehend this trivial point.

James P. Schuck,

  1. who seems to have no technical knowledge of the Internet and
  2. who is the judge, who presides over STATE OF OHIO ex rel. DAVE YOST v GOOGLE, LLC [21 CV H 06 0274],

understands the point, which is trivial for anyone that has half a brain — obviously not true for Brain-Dead Anonymous Coward.

The proper non-Internet analogy is Amazon Whole Foods, which delivers groceries to Amazon customers.

Amazon Whole Foods is a supermarket and a common carrier.

The digital messages from the server to the user are analogous to the groceries.

I do not yet have an analogy for the reverse direction, but it’s not important because bidirectional message common carriage starts with the telegraph and is not common outside of message common carriage.

User-to-user common carriage by the social medium platform can be constructed from a plurality of spokes of user-to-and-from-server common carriage if we consider the server to be the common carriage hub for a plurality of users.

Anonymous Coward should change his handle to Anonymous Nitwit.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Once a social medium platform serves its software/web page to the user’s computing device in response to the initial HTTP GET request, software of the social medium platform performs digital message common carriage between the social medium platform’s server and user’s computing device.

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re essentially saying that social media becomes a common carrier when someone looks at its website.

If I’m understanding you correctly, that’s complete and utter nonsense. It’s like saying if there are a bunch of messages posted on a wall, THE WALL becomes a common carrier when someone looks at it.

By the way, the thing that performs digital message carriage from the social media server to the user’s computer? It’s not the server, it’s the Internet infrastructure that the server is connected to. No web service, social media or otherwise, can function without it. Which just adds to the ridiculousness of your other argument, that a service intertwined with the Internet is a state actor. See my post above pointing out why that argument won’t ever hold up.

My computer is my house, HTML packets are the car and social media is the business I’m traveling to. What’s the common carrier here? It’s not the business, it’s the road.

James P. Schuck, … understands the point,

No he doesn’t. As of May 2022, he just let the common carriage argument pass the motion to dismiss phase because he’s obligated to take the Plantiff’s position as true at that point. It’s by no means a final decision. If there have been more recent developments, I was unable to locate them.

which is trivial for anyone that has half a brain — obviously not true for Brain-Dead Anonymous Coward.
Anonymous Coward should change his handle to Anonymous Nitwit.

I can’t help but notice this is a pattern for you. Whenever someone points out how your argument just doesn’t work, you invariably insult them (never a good sign if you’re trying to honestly debate someone) and reference cases that had nothing to do with the Internet but that you think might possibly apply (they don’t) or non-binding theories and opinions.

Look, I get why you insist that cases like Zeran, Halleck. Prager, and NetChoice are wrong and that cases like Skinner and Burton apply. It’s quite simple. It’s because if Zeran, Halleck, Prager, and NetChoice are right, your entire case implodes. Therefore, you need them to be wrong.

But they’re not wrong. You are.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Nitwit Anonymous Coward Thinks Tweets are on a Wall?

Where is the wall, dummy? An electronic message board is an elementary example of virtual reality, dummy?

Nitwit Anonymous Clown seems to believe that Tweet service operates by magic.

The reality is a database server at the backend.

Without Twitter software, which runs at the backend, and without Twitter software, which runs on the user computer device, no Tweet can ever be carried between a Twitter server and a user’s computing device.

Nitwit Anonymous Coward is too ignorant for words.

Zeran is logical garbage.

Halleck is narrow because MCA has no similarity to an Internet social medium platform.

Prager‘s argument is badly stated. I read through the case documents, and I cannot guess where Prager alleges the public forum to be.

NetChoice is really too early in the litigation to make a judgement about the ultimate outcome. The panel of the Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit is at best confused.

We have seen crap like Section 230 caselaw in the past. The Appellant’s Brief in Martillo v. Twitter points out the following.

While Joachim is concerned about the civil rights and common carriage law violations he has suffered, he is a legal professional and is worried about harm that the caselaw, which has become associated with 47 U.S.C. § 230, is inflicting on the US legal and political system. There seems in this caselaw something, which is ideological and reminiscent of the fin-de-siècle merger of substantive due process doctrine with laissez faire economics, reinforced by the doctrine of Social Darwinism (as elaborated by Herbert Spencer).

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I will admit you’re right in one thing: if I have the Twitter app on my phone, then Twitter’s software is indeed on my device. If I choose to use the website instead, however, then Twittwr’s software never loads onto my phone. What is so hard about that for you to understand?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Without Twitter software, which runs at the backend, and without Twitter software, which runs on the user computer device, no Tweet can ever be carried between a Twitter server and a user’s computing device.

And without the flame broiler in the back of a Burger King, no customer can ever get a delicious Whopper. “A business doesn’t work without the things that are required for the business to work” is circular reasoning. What’s your point?

We have seen crap like Section 230 caselaw in the past. The Appellant’s Brief in Martillo v. Twitter points out the following.

Since your case has not been decided in your favor, your arguments and opinions are just that. You don’t get to claim it as “proof” of the rightness of your position. It’s just more circular reasoning.

Zeran is logical garbage.

Halleck is narrow because MCA has no similarity to an Internet social medium platform.

Prager‘s argument is badly stated. I read through the case documents, and I cannot guess where Prager alleges the public forum to be.

NetChoice is really too early in the litigation to make a judgement about the ultimate outcome. The panel of the Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit is at best confused

Oh hey, look at that. You just did exactly what you always do. This is you in a nutshell: “All these other established decisions don’t support my position, therefore they must be wrong and stupid just like you, because I couldn’t possibly be wrong and you’re just too dumb to understand my genius.”

There are cases where one person is right and the status quo is wrong. Then there are cases where one person is tilting at windmills. Hint: you are not an example of the first case.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I admit to not having the in-depth knowledge of some other commenters here in re: Internet technologies and such. But I still know bullshit when I read it, and you haven’t convinced me⁠—a regular jackoff⁠—that your theories are any more sound now than they were when you last trotted them out.

Keep trying to force your speech onto Twitter, though. That’s how I know your bullshit is exactly that: Nobody has the right to force their speech onto other people’s privately owned property. If I don’t have the right to plant a “this guy is a monumental dumbass” sign on your front lawn without violating at least a couple of laws and your right to free association, for what reason should you have the right to make Twitter host your speech? (And don’t say “because Twitter is open to the public”⁠—so is Walmart, but I still can’t force Walmart to put up “Walmart sucks” signs all over a given store.)

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Nobody has the right to force their speech onto other people’s privately owned property

As a matter of law, nitwit Stephen T. Stone’s assertion is false.

Arguendo, if the nitwit’s assertion were true, then as a matter of equity, Twitter should not be using links and devices, which it does not own, in tweet service.

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 A White Racist Supporter of Social Medium Discrimination is Utterly Ignorant!

I own the property where the city put a public sidewalk in front of my house. Yet this sidewalk is a public forum — whether or not I like it.

Toom1275, Anonymous Coward, and Stephen T. Stone should change their user names to Toom1275-Nitwit, Anonymous-Nitwit, and Stephen T. Stone-Nitwit so that a reader is warned exactly how valueless a comment from each of these clowns is.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I own the property where the city put a public sidewalk in front of my house. Yet this sidewalk is a public forum — whether or not I like it.

And if Twitter were like a public sidewalk, that would mean something.

But the sidewalk would actually be your connection to the Internet; Twitter would be a building⁠—privately owned but open to the public, like any meatspace retailer⁠—where following their rules determines whether you can stay in that building.

You have no more of a right to make Twitter host your speech than you do to make a Walmart or a McDonald’s or a Hobby Lobby host your speech. No binding legal precedent says you have that right; if it did, you could point to that precedent instead of saying “I’ll have it as soon as my once-failed lawsuit finds a judge ignorant enough to say ‘yes, you can compel this private entity to host your speech’ ”.

Of course, once you have that precedent, I’ll exercise my right to post my speech on any property⁠—in cyber- or meatspace⁠—that you happen to own/operate. After all, if the law says you get the right to compel the hosting of your speech (and that is what you’re aiming for with your lolsuit), the law must also say everyone else gets that right.

How big should I make my “monumental dumbass” lawn signs? 🤔

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 Yes, Stephen T. Stone Should Put a Monumental Dumbass Sign on His Lawn

Not only is Burton relevant, but Perry Ed. Assn. v. Perry Local Educators’ Assn, 460 U.S. 37, 103 S. Ct. 948 (1983) may be even more onpoint. Here is an interesting passage.

In places which by long tradition or by government fiat have been devoted to assembly and debate, the rights of the State to limit expressive activity are sharply circumscribed. At one end of the spectrum are streets and parks which “have immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public and, time out of mind, have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions.” Hague v. CIO, 307 U.S. 496, 515 (1939). In these quintessential public forums, the government may not prohibit all communicative activity. For the State to enforce a content-based exclusion it must show that its regulation is necessary to serve a compelling state interest and that it is narrowly drawn to achieve that end. Carey v. Brown, 447 U.S. 455, 461 (1980). The State may also enforce regulations of the time, place, and manner of expression which are content-neutral, are narrowly tailored to serve a significant government interest, and leave open ample alternative channels of communication. United States Postal Service v. Council of Greenburgh Civic Assns., 453 U.S. 114, 132 (1981); Consolidated Edison Co. v. Public Service Comm’n, 447 U.S. 530, 535-536 (1980); Grayned v. City of Rockford, supra, at 115; Cantwell v. Connecticut, 310 U.S. 296 (1940); Schneider v. State, 308 U.S. 147 (1939).

A second category consists of public property which the State has opened for use by the public as a place for expressive activity. The Constitution forbids a State to enforce certain exclusions from a forum generally open to the public even if it was not required to create the forum in the first place. Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263 (1981) (university meeting facilities); City of Madison Joint School District v. Wisconsin Employment Relations Comm’n, 429 U.S. 167 (1976) (school board meeting); Southeastern Promotions, Ltd. v. Conrad, 420 U.S. 546 (1975) (municipal theater). Although a State is not required to indefinitely retain the open character of the facility, as long as it does so it is bound by the same standards as apply in a traditional public forum. Reasonable time, place, and manner regulations are permissible, and a content-based prohibition must be narrowly drawn to effectuate a compelling state interest. Widmar v. Vincent, supra, at 269-270.

My wife and I can almost certainly argue that the Arpanet/Internet was a designated public forum before privatization, which was only partial. ISPs became federally-regulated telecommunications common carriers — no First Amendment problem there. Partial privatization of the Internet served inextricably to intertwine a social medium platform with the federal government so that a social medium platform became a state actor and may not “[abridge] the freedom of speech” within the Internet.

In addition, a social medium platform remains a common carrier and a place of public accommodation for numerous purposes covered by the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

A white racist like Stephen T. Stone can babble incoherently about hosting speech, but a common carrier often stores property at an intermediate location before forwarding it to its next destination. Calling such temporary storage hosting is not going to enable a social medium platform to escape common carriage law, and a Court is likely to consider such a nonsense argument to be legal admission of bad faith (or even of dishonesty) on the part of the social medium platform.

We are discussing a controversy in equity. A party before a Court of Equity must approach the Court with clean hands or the Court will discount arguments of the party.

McMahon left notes about bringing

  1. a count for group libel and
  2. a count of conspiracy, incitement, or complicity in genocide according to the Alien Tort Statute.

It’s hard to be dirtier than a social medium platform

  1. that discriminates against non-white and non-Europeans or
  2. that gets implicated in an ongoing genocide.

McMahon considered a count of civil RICO. We believe it was a good idea.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

A few things.

  1. Twitter isn’t “the state”⁠—or a state actor.
  2. The government didn’t open, and doesn’t own/operate, Twitter. Twitter is a privately owned institution that is open to the public, much like a Walmart or a Burger King.
  3. The Internet isn’t a public forum⁠—it’s a communication network that can offer access to privately owned open-to-the-public forums.
  4. All the people who own and operate Mastodon instances within the United States will definitely be surprised to learn that, under your non-binding legal theory, they’re all designated and recognized agents of the United States federal government only because they own and operate Mastodon instances within the United States.
  5. Social media platforms are no more common carriers than any other interactive web service.
  6. Your attempts to have Twitter designated a common carrier is absolutely about trying to force Twitter into hosting, or at least subsidizing the hosting of, your speech.
  7. You sound like one of those “sovereign citizen” shitheads; we love to mock SovCits ’round these parts.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Not only is Burton relevant

It’s really not, as has been pointed out repeatedly.

In Burton, if the government shut down the garage, the private business located there would no longer be able to operate. If those parts of the Internet that are still under direct government control were deactivated, Twitter would be unaffected. Therefore, it is not nearly “intertwined” enough with the government for your Burton argument to be even remotely applicable.

McMahon considered a count of civil RICO. We believe it was a good idea.

sigh

Perry Ed. Assn. v. Perry Local Educators’ Assn, 460 U.S. 37, 103 S. Ct. 948 (1983) may be even more onpoint.

Oh hey look, out comes another this-might-apply-if-you-look-at-it-while-standing-on-one-leg-and-tilting-your-head decision.

At one end of the spectrum are streets and parks which “have immemorially been held in trust for the use of the public and, time out of mind, have been used for purposes of assembly, communicating thoughts between citizens, and discussing public questions.”

This refers to public land used by a government’s citizens for public purpose. That’s not applicable to social media, which is private land used by a business’ customers for private purpose.

A second category consists of public property which the State has opened for use by the public as a place for expressive activity.

Twitter isn’t public property, and it wasn’t opened by the State.

I couldn’t help but notice you cherry picked the part of Perry that you believe supports your claim. But what about the case overall?

First, Perry is talking about a public school district, which is unquestionably the State. Twitter isn’t the State, so that’s strike one against Perry. Second, the overall decision of Perry, that one does not have a claim to access government property simply because it’s government property, even if it is used for communication, runs counter to your argument. Strike two. Third, the Plaintiffs in Perry lost. Strike three, you’re out.

And hey, I’ll even do your reply for you:

“BD AC Nitwit is a vicious bloodthirsty racial supremacist genocide-supporter. BD AC Nitwit is too ignorant for words. I have spoken to SCOTUS justices and at least 4 are on my side. I intend to bring every white racist supporter of social medium platform discrimination to tears and bankrupt all social medium platforms. Something-something-Perry-Burton-Skinner-McMahon.”

Sound about right?

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Anonymous Clown is so Stupid as well as So Ignorant of Law and of Technology that he is Almost Too Vicariously Embarrassing To Read!

Anonymous Clown and other nitwits in this discussion just don’t get State Action Doctrine.

The action of a non-government actor becomes inextricably linked with the government and thus state action

  1. if the action of the non-government actor can only be considered unequivocally an expression of government policy,
  2. if the non-government actor is supported by the government, or
  3. if the non-government actor supports the government within a government facility or establishment.

List elements [2] and [3] become especially problematic when the action, which the non-government actor undertakes, could not constitutionally or legally be undertaken by the government.

Jawboning comes under list element [1] and does not create a situation of state action

  1. when the non-government actor has strong means to pushback or
  2. when the non-government actor can show that it undertook the action in question before the government started jawboning.

Eagle Coffee Shop of Burton came under list element [3] because it paid rent to the government and in effect made the state government complicit in violation of 14th Amendment.

Suppose Delaware had allowed the Eagle Coffee Shop to use government space for free. Then the issue would have come under list element [2].

Anonymous Clown is clueless with respect to reading a decision of SCOTUS.

The holding of SCOTUS (right at the beginning of Perry) is important with respect to state action doctrine while the affirmance or the rejection of the outcome of the trial court has little relevance to state action doctrine.

SCOTUS points out in Perry that the school email system is not, by tradition or government designation, a forum for public communication.

In contrast, the government created the Internet to be a forum for public communication, and partial privatization does not change that designation.

A social medium platform like Twitter undertakes discriminatory action in government supported networks and systems

  1. like a state college network,
  2. like a state ISP to wit NYSERNET,
  3. like a community ISP to wit Chattanooga EBP, and
  4. like a federally funded broadband link.

The government cannot

  1. participate in an action,
  2. benefit from an action,
  3. support an action, or
  4. compel an action by a non-government actor

if the action were unconstitutional or illegal if the government undertook the action. Every social medium platform is forbidden by state action doctrine from

  1. abridging user 1st Amendment rights,
  2. public accommodation discrimination,
  3. civil rights discrimination, and
  4. common carriage discrimination

even if a supporter of social medium platform discrimination is either too racist or too stupid to accept the obvious legal truth.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Anonymous Clown is clueless with respect to reading a decision of SCOTUS.

…says the dude whose lolsuit got bounced from SCOTUS because even they weren’t willing to treat it seriously.

Some people here are correctly citing the binding legal precedents that apply to legal liability for interactive web services in re: third-party content and the right of those services to associate (or not) with whatever speech they choose. You’re claiming that your lolsuit is binding legal precedent (or will be aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaany minute now). If anyone is clueless, it’s you, dude⁠—the legal system told you “no” several times and you still refuse to listen.

ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12 Stephen T. Stone is Too Dumb to Learn Basic Legalese

An unconstitutional and moronic precedent, which like Zeran is based on a logical fallacy, cannot be legally binding.

The nitwit probably does not understand the logical fallacy, which is called denial of the antecedent.

Here is a simple example, which has a chance of not going over this nitwit’s head.

If a nitwit lives in Ann Arbor, he lives in Michigan.
If a nitwit does not live in Ann Arbor, he does not live in Michigan.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

An unconstitutional and moronic precedent, which like Zeran is based on a logical fallacy, cannot be legally binding.

And yet, Zeran is binding legal precedent while your lolsuit remains the rantings of a sociopath who wants the right to legally force others into hosting his speech without caring about whether they actually want to host it.

Call me if that changes. Until then: Cite the legal precedent that lets you make other people host your speech or fuck all the way off (like the courts thought you would when they told you to fuck off but in legalese).

יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 An ISP Transports a Transport Layer Packet and Knows Nothing About a Tweet

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet, about which an ISP knows nothing.

Twitter provides common carriage of a tweet

  • in exchange for work (“eyes on a page”),
  • in exchange for barter (content), and
  • in exchange for a fee to increase the number of users that see the tweet.

Once a social medium platform serves its software/web page to the user’s computing device in response to the initial HTTP GET request, software of the social medium platform performs digital message common carriage between the social medium platform’s server and user’s computing device.

User-to-user common carriage by the social medium platform can be constructed from a plurality of spokes of user-to-and-from-server common carriage if we consider the server to be the common carriage hub for a plurality of users.

The operation of Twitter common carriage is simple, and only someone semi-educated in the technology seems unable to comprehend Twitter common carriage.

James P. Schuck,

  1. who seems to have no technical knowledge of the Internet and
  2. who is the judge, who presides over STATE OF OHIO ex rel. DAVE YOST v GOOGLE, LLC [21 CV H 06 0274],
    understands the point, which is trivial for anyone that has half a brain — obviously not true for Brain-Dead Anonymous Coward.

The proper non-Internet analogy tweet common carriage service is AT&T alliance teleconferencing, which provided

  1. voice common carriage,
  2. video common carriage, and
  3. digital common carriage.

It was considered a separate service, but the same AT&T modular switch, which was called the AT&T Network Services Complex, enabled the AT&T Mass Announcement System. A customer could upload content that a second customer could hear by dialing into the mass announcement system. The Mass Announcement System also had a scheduled dial-out feature.

No one ever doubted that these AT&T services constituted common carriage, and no one ever confused the content uploaded to a Mass Announcement server with AT&T’s own private speech.

White racist supporters of social medium discrimination against non-whites and non-Europeans constitute some of most vile and most ignorant people on the planet.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Your assertion holds no power if you can’t prove that the law agrees with you

I am in Court to create binding legal precedent.

No one has bothered to try to understand whether the 1996 definitions contained in

  1. 47 U.S. Code § 230 (f)(2) Interactive computer service or
  2. 47 U.S. Code § 230 (f)(4) Access software provider

can possibly refer to a 2022 social medium platform.

In a patent infringement litigation (Title 35), the meaning of a claim is routinely determined in a Markman hearing. See Markman v. Westview Instruments, Inc., 52 F.3d 967 (Fed. Cir. 1995).

It’s time maybe for something like a Markman hearing to be applied with respect to Title 47.

BTW, Eric Goldman does not seem to know anything about this stuff, which should be important in determining whether an old statute applies to a new technology system.

This question was important in Martillo v. Twitter because the District Court asserted that MGL c. 159 §§ 1&2, which were enacted in 1869, could not apply to a new technology system.

Sauce for the goose is gravy for the gander.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: יונתן פֿאליק or عطا الله عفلق is my real name.

Thors Provoni is a fictional character, whom my sister sometimes alleges me to be. While she first made this allegation long before Big Bang Theory was created, I can do stand-up physics comedy.

I admit that Tech Dirt’s white racist supporters of social medium platform discrimination create more risible material in their comments about law and technology than I ever could create about physics for stand-up comedy.

The user name, which I employ, depends on the computing device from which I log into Tech Dirt.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: SCOTUS Has Never Affirmed Zeran-Based Caselaw

Now that I have informed SCOTUS of the logical fallacy in the Zeran ruling of the Court of Appeals of the Fourth Circuit, it is unlikely that SCOTUS will ever uphold Zeran-based caselaw.

Forestalling affirmation of Zeran-based caselaw is only a small first step in taking down every social medium platform that discriminates against non-whites and non-Europeans.

McMahon appears to have thought the whole strategy through even if he did not explain all the details to me before he died. He made me promise to follow the whole plan to the bitter end if he died during the litigation.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Now that I have informed SCOTUS of the logical fallacy in the Zeran ruling of the Court of Appeals of the Fourth Circuit, it is unlikely that SCOTUS will ever uphold Zeran-based caselaw.

Unless SCOTUS overturns Zeran/Halleck, they’ll remain binding legal precedent⁠—which your lolsuit will never be, given that SCOTUS already gave you the legalese equivalent of “fuck off” once.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Zeran/Halleck is as Binding Precedent as Roe v. Wade

The First Circuit of the Court of Appeals has never bought into Zeran, which is based in logical fallacy while MCA is a cablecaster for a cable network. The fundamental controversy of Halleck has no similarity to the controversy of social medium platform discrimination with respect to:

  1. state action,
  2. public accommodation,
  3. civil rights, and
  4. common carriage.

White racist Stephen T. Stone has one goal: to suppress an open public discussion

  1. of the genocide that Zionist colonial settler anti-Jews perpetrate in stolen Palestine and
  2. of the federal crimes that he and his racist ilk perpetrate in the USA because material support of genocide is material support to terrorists.

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Please Learn What Overturn Means in the US Legal System

Stephen T. Stone incoherently babbles the following.

Can you cite a binding legal precedent in the First Circuit that has overturned Zeran either in the First Circuit alone or across the nation?

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit can overturn an existing First Circuit precedent. Such a ruling might go to SCOTUS via petition for writ of certiorari. A federal Court of Appeals can overrule a lower Court of its own circuit (e.g., a District Court or an Article I Administrative Tribunal).

If a controversy of Commonwealth law (or of law in another state of the First Circuit) has come to the Court of Appeals from a District Court, which sits in diversity jurisdiction, the Court of Appeals may for good legal reason ignore state precedent but does not exactly overrule state caselaw and sets up a situation, which may eventually become ripe for a petition to SCOTUS for certiorari because it’s somewhat analogous to a circuit split.

See Noonan v. Staples, Inc., 556 F.3d 20 (1st Cir. 2009), in which a state libel controversy was tried and appealed in federal court.

If Noonan had gone to SCOTUS via petition for certiorari or via an application, which was forwarded to the whole court, SCOTUS might overrule or affirm the Court of Appeals — with the effect of upholding or overturning state caselaw.

  1. If a federal case with respect to state law does not go to SCOTUS via petition for certiorari or via application and
  2. if another case, which is tried in state court, focuses on the same state caselaw,

the conflicting state and federal rulings with respect to state law may create a situation for the second case to go a state supreme court (Supreme Judicial Court in Massachusetts). On final disposition by the state supreme court, a party to the litigation may petition SCOTUS for certiorari to the state supreme court.

In such a situation,

  • SCOTUS might by affirming the state supreme court’s ruling uphold state caselaw and overturn or the federal precedent with respect to state law or
  • SCOTUS might overrule the state supreme court’s ruling and overturn existing state caselaw.

Martillo v. Twitter is complex in the structure of its litigation because three legal controversies are consolidated with respect to the same plaintiff and with respect to the same defendants — eventually more controversies will be added.

The current controversies comprise:

  1. federal public accommodation discrimination,
  2. federal civil rights discrimination, and
  3. state common carriage violation.

Because of diversity jurisdiction, controversy (3) must be tried in Massachusetts federal district court. The discrimination in controversies (1) and (2) took place in the first circuit but 5 of the defendants are principally located in the 9th circuit while 1 defendant is principally located in the 1st circuit. Without controversy (3), the 5 9th circuit defendants might try probably unsuccessfully to transfer the case from venue in the 1st circuit to venue in the 9th circuit. Because Martillo v. Twitter was dismissed finally before service, the 5 9th Circuit defendants could not motion for transfer to a 9th circuit district court.

If the Court of Appeals for the First Circuit overrules the District Court, it is likely to reject Zeran for the 1st Circuit because a Court of Appeals abominates the logical fallacy of denial of the antecedent and will question the correctness of the ruling in Lewis v. Google LLC, No. 20-16073 (9th Cir. Apr. 15, 2021), which in any case is neither published nor precedential in the 9th Circuit.

When Martillo v. Twitter returns to a district court of the 1st Circuit, the Original Complaint will be rewritten (with a caption change) into an Amended Class Action Complaint, which includes counts of:

  1. state group libel violation by a defendant social medium platform class against a plaintiff class, which consists of Palestinians, Arabs, Muslims, and proud Diaspora Jews like Joachim Martillo as well as
  2. First Amendment violation under state action doctrine.

[McMahon considered an Alien Tort Statute count and a civil RICO count also to be worth adding in an Amended Class Action Complaint.]

The case will be tried before a three judge federal district court panel and will go to SCOTUS by direct appeal and not by petition for writ of certiorari.

I am good at reading SCOTUS tea leaves. Every depraved member of the defendant class will be bankrupted as SCOTUS holds

  1. no 2022 social medium platform qualifies to be an 1996 ICS as a 1996 ICS is defined in 47 U.S. Code § 230;
  2. every defendant social medium platform is a state actor, which violates the First Amendment;
  3. the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively violates federal civil rights law that it was correct subjected to massive penalties (in the $100 billion range for each defendant);
  4. the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively violates federal public accommodation anti-discrimination law;
  5. the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively so violates state common carriage law that each was correctly subjected to penalties in the $10 trillion range for each defendant; and
  6. the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform commits such massive group libel penalties that the plaintiff class was correctly awarded tort compensation in the $100 trillion range from each defendant.

Every white racist supporter of social medium platform discrimination will weep inconsolably.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit can overturn an existing First Circuit precedent.

“Can” does not mean “has”. Yes or no: Has that court or the Supreme Court overturned the precedent created by Zeran and subsequent rulings that rely on or reference Zeran?

Martillo v. Twitter

…is not binding legal precedent that overturns Zeran/the aforementioned subsequent rulings. If it ever does become binding legal precedent instead of the theories of a whackjob dickhead who wants the right to legally force their speech onto other people’s private property, you let me know.

no 2022 social medium platform qualifies to be an 1996 ICS as a 1996 ICS is defined in 47 U.S. Code § 230

The people who wrote 47 U.S.C. § 230 disagree with you. But hey, they’re just the lawmakers who wrote the damn law, what do they know~.

every defendant social medium platform is a state actor

🤣

the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively violates federal civil rights law

then how did you lose 🤣

the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively violates federal public accommodation anti-discrimination law

then how did you lose 🤣

the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform massively so violates state common carriage law that each was correctly subjected to penalties

🤣 then how did you lose 🤣

the Plaintiff class demonstrated in Trial Court that every defendant social medium platform commits such massive group libel penalties that the plaintiff class was correctly awarded tort compensation

🤣 then 🤣 how 🤣 did 🤣 you 🤣 lose 🤣

in the $100 trillion range from each defendant

🤣 🤣 🤣 jesus fucking christ are you out of your fucking mind 🤣 🤣 🤣

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 Stephen T. Stone is Too Dumb to Learn Basic Legalest

The Court of Appeals for the First Circuit can’t uphold Zeran-based caselaw until litigation, in which a First Circuit District Court applies this caselaw in its adjudication, reaches this Appellate Court via an appeal.

No such litigation has appeared before this Appellate Court.

I have almost certainly made it impossible for this Court of Appeals to uphold logically fallacious and moronic Zeran-based caselaw.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I have almost certainly made it impossible for this Court of Appeals to uphold logically fallacious and moronic Zeran-based caselaw.

When you lose, will you come back here and apologize for all the littering of bullshit that you’ve done over the past few months, or will you pound the table and hope people won’t notice that you’ve lost?

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Anonymous Clown is too Stupid for Words

We have only one post office in the USA.

Suppose we had 50 state post offices in the US, but a state post office could only deliver

  1. to an addressee in its own state or
  2. to a federal post office branch in its own state.

Suppose that a federal post office can direct an international envelope to an international carrier or carry a state post office envelope to the destination state post office.

The federal post office only carries letters among the state post offices or to an international mail carrier.

Suppose I am in Massachusetts but want to mail a letter to my wife, who is a college student in California. I create an envelope, which can be carried by the California state post office to my wife’s address. I put my letter in a California state postal envelope and drop it off at a Massachusetts state post office.

Because the Massachusetts state post office cannot deliver to an addressee in California, the Massachusetts state post office creates a federal postal envelope and addresses it to the California state postal office in California. The Massachusetts state post office brings all such federal postal envelopes to a local Massachusetts federal post office branch.

The federal postal office carries each federal post office envelope to a federal post office branch in the state that is addressed on the federal post office envelope.

When the California branch of the federal post office receives a federal post office envelope, the California branch of the federal post office opens up the federal post office envelope, finds that it contains a California state post office letter addressed to my wife. (It might have found an international envelope, which would have to be carried to a local California international mail carrier.)

The California branch of the federal post office brings my California post office envelope to a local California state post office, which then delivers the letter to my wife, who is a student at a California college.

In this example, the federal postal service and all the state postal services are common carriers.

Neither the letter originator nor the letter addressee is a common carrier.

I reiterate.

Anonymous Clown is too stupid for words.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

We have only one post office in the USA.

Correction: we have only one publicly run and/or owned postal service in the USA (the USPS). Other postal services exist in the US which are privately owned and run (e.g. UPS and FedEx), and the USPS has many post offices (those physical buildings you go to to drop off, pick up, or check the status of letters and/or packages and where you can purchase stamps), as well as branches in different states (as you point out).

In this example, the federal postal service and all the state postal services are common carriers.

True.

Neither the letter originator nor the letter addressee is a common carrier.

True, but you know who else isn’t a common carrier? Your mailbox or P.O. box. This is also true if you live in an apartment with a bunch of mailboxes in one place, one for each apartment in the building. The apartment building owner is not a common carrier.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

AC is too stupid to understand layered encapsulation

If I put some documents in a Hebrew-addressed mailer,

  1. which says Haifa in Latin letters and
  2. which is carried by a bicycle courier to a shipper, who puts them in an English-tagged cargo pouch and carries the cargo pouch to Haifa, where an employee of the shipper removes the mailer from the the English-addressed cargo pouch, hands the (Hebrew-addressed) mailer to a courier, who carries the mailer to a law office, for whom I doing some work,

three common carriers (two couriers and one shipper) participate in the above scenario. I was not a common carrier when I put the documents in a mailer.

There are two layers of encapsulation and two levels of common carriage. A common carriage example, which has two layers of encapsulation and two levels of common carriers, seems too complex for Anonymous Clown to understand.

A common carriage situation, in which there are multiple layers of encapsulation and multiple common carriers, is well-understood from telex-telephone network examples and from PSPDN examples.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

I was not a common carrier when I put the documents in a mailer.

Neither is Twitter when it pus data in a HTML wrapper and hands it over to an ISP for delivery, often in response to a request delivered by an ISP in a HTML wrapper.

What is so hard about the difference between receiving and sending messages via a common carrier, and being a common carrier carrying those messages between Internet addresses?

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יונתן פֿאליק , عطا الله عفلق (profile) says:

Re: Re: Anonymous Clown is Too Ignorant and Too Clueless to Distinguish the HTML Document from the Wrapper/Envelope

It is almost vicariously embarrassing to watch Anonymous Clown show his bottomless ignorance of technology and of law.

The wrapper or envelope consists of an HTTP request or an HTTP response.

Neither is Twitter when it pus data in a HTML wrapper and hands it over to an ISP for delivery, often in response to a request delivered by an ISP in a HTML wrapper.

What is so hard about the difference between receiving and sending messages via a common carrier, and being a common carrier carrying those messages between Internet addresses?

A common carrier of digital personal literary property may carry the digital personal literary in the form of an HTML document or of a text document, each of which has an HTTP wrapper or HTTP envelope.

JSON or other data,

  1. which is not an HTML document and
  2. which a social medium platform common carrier might carry between a social medium platform backend and a user computing device frontend,

only rarely contains any HTML.

When I engage Twitter to carry a tweet via Twitter software from my user computer to a Twitter backend, I don’t request carriage of an HTML document. I request carriage of the tweet, which is my digital personal literary property.

The Twitter single page application, which runs within my browser wraps the tweet in a Twitter envelope. The browser wraps the Twitter envelope in an HTTP envelope. My user computing device wraps the HTTP envelope in a TCP/IP envelope. The LAN or WLAN driver wraps the TCP/IP envelope in an L2 envelope and transmits the L2 envelope (containing the hierarchically wrapped data) to the ISP access device. Eventually after carriage and unwrapping the Twitter envelope carrying my digital personal property (the tweet) gets into the Twitter backend, where the tweet is stored in an intermediate storage device.

Twitter obviously performs message common carriage of digital personal literary property.

The legal logic of such message common carriage was all worked out during the 60s with respect to Telex message common carriage service over telephone network telecommunications common carriage.

Telex message common carriage service of digital personal literary property does not differ legally from Twitter message common carriage service of digital personal literary property.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Twitter obviously performs message common carriage of digital personal literary property.

The Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals says otherwise in its ruling in NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida:

The first version of the argument fails because, in point of fact, social-media platforms are not—in the nature of things, so to speak—common carriers. That is so for at least three reasons.

First, social-media platforms have never acted like common carriers. “[I]n the communications context,” common carriers are entities that “make a public offering to provide communications facilities whereby all members of the public who choose to employ such facilities may communicate or transmit intelligence of their own design and choosing”—they don’t “make individualized decisions, in particular cases, whether and on what terms to deal.” FCC v. Midwest Video Corp., 440 U.S. 689, 701 (1979) (cleaned up). While it’s true that social-media platforms generally hold themselves open to all members of the public, they require users, as preconditions of access, to accept their terms of service and abide by their community standards. In other words, Facebook is open to every individual if, but only if, she agrees not to transmit content that violates the company’s rules. Social-media users, accordingly, are not freely able to transmit messages “of their own design and choosing” because platforms make—and have always made—“individualized” content- and viewpoint-based decisions about whether to publish particular messages or users.

Second, Supreme Court precedent strongly suggests that internet companies like social-media platforms aren’t common carriers. While the Court has applied less stringent First Amendment scrutiny to television and radio broadcasters, the Turner Court cabined that approach to “broadcast” media because of its “unique physical limitations”—chiefly, the scarcity of broadcast frequencies. 512 U.S. at 637–39. Instead of “comparing cable operators to electricity providers, trucking companies, and railroads—all entities subject to traditional economic regulation”—the Turner Court “analogized the cable operators [in that case] to the publishers, pamphleteers, and bookstore owners traditionally protected by the First Amendment.” U.S. Telecom Ass’n v. FCC, 855 F.3d 381, 428 (D.C. Cir. 2017) (Kavanaugh, J., dissental); see Turner, 512 U.S. at 639. And indeed, the Court explicitly distinguished online from broadcast media in Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, emphasizing that the “vast democratic forums of the Internet” have never been “subject to the type of government supervision and regulation that has attended the broadcast industry.” 521 U.S. 844, 868–69 (1997). These precedents demonstrate that social-media platforms should be treated more like cable operators, which retain their First Amendment right to exercise editorial discretion, than traditional common carriers.

Finally, Congress has distinguished internet companies from common carriers. The Telecommunications Act of 1996 explicitly differentiates “interactive computer services”—like social-media platforms—from “common carriers or telecommunications services.” See, e.g., 47 U.S.C. § 223(e)(6) (“Nothing in this section shall be construed to treat interactive computer services as common carriers or telecommunications carriers.”). And the Act goes on to provide protections for internet companies that are inconsistent with the traditional common-carrier obligation of indiscriminate service. In particular, it explicitly protects internet companies’ ability to restrict access to a plethora of material that they might consider “objectionable.” Id. § 230(c)(2)(A). Federal law’s recognition and protection of social-media platforms’ ability to discriminate among messages—disseminating some but not others—is strong evidence that they are not common carriers with diminished First Amendment rights.

If you think you’re going to win your lolsuit, you’ll need an argument that can outclass the Eleventh Circuit’s reasoning at a bare minimum⁠. What sucks for you is that you can’t even outclass the people in the Techdirt comments.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Ok, so I got HTTP, which is what I meant, mixed with HTML. However, HTTP is a transport envelope, while HTML is a document format, update and citation mechanism.

You are so desperate to get onto platforms to attack those that you hate that you will twist the law out of shape to achieve your aims by misrepresentation the difference between communicating parties, you and twitter, and the common carrier system you use, the Internet..

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Nitwit Anonymous Clown is Too Stupid to understand the Basics of Message Common Carriage of Digital Personal Literary Property

[Confusing HTML with HTTP is the error of an ignoramus. Anonymous Clown belongs to the class of complete ignoramuses.]

Twitter tweet service is message common carriage, which is built on top of Internet common carriage, just as Western Union telex service was message common carriage, which was built on top of telephone network common carriage.

I hate a perpetrator of genocide. No one should be prohibited from expressing hatred of a perpetrator of genocide even if the expression of such hatred may discomfit or upset a white racial supremacist genocide supporter like Anonymous Clown.

Only a depraved and evil white racist like Anonymous Clown supports

  1. a state actor when it tries to abridge free speech in a public forum;
  2. a facility or establishment, which provides a place of public accommodation to express an opinion, when it tries to discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity, national origin, or race;
  3. a common carrier when it tries to perpetrate content-based common carriage discrimination.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

What's White Culture?

White culture is normally a code for the fake culture that is associated with US white or Aryan nationalism. When a researcher referred to the dominant American culture, he usually referred to WASP culture.

I believe white was added to the acronym to make it easier to remember. In British history there were no non-white Anglo-Saxons.

Anglo-Saxon Protestant Americans were (and are) a minority. There is WASP culture and all the other cultures in the USA.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Nitwit Stephen T. Stone is Too Dumb to Learn Basic Legalese

I petitioned SCOTUS for certiorari to the Court of the First Circuit before judgment chiefly in order to guarantee that SCOTUS does not uphold logically fallacious and moronic Zeran-based caselaw before Martillo v. Twitter gets to SCOTUS via the route of appeal. From all indications, the mission was a success.

47 U.S. Code § 230 tells us that a 1996 ICS has neither speaker (or author) nor publisher liability with respect to 3rd party content. The statute says nothing about distributor liability.

The normal defense to a complaint of distributor liability is an assertion, which alleges the distributor had no knowledge of the content. Once a social medium platform claims to enforce community standards, a defense of no knowledge is thrown out the window.

A white racist supporter of social medium discrimination is as dumb as a bucket of hair.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

I petitioned SCOTUS for certiorari to the Court of the First Circuit before judgment chiefly in order to guarantee that SCOTUS does not uphold logically fallacious and moronic Zeran-based caselaw before Martillo v. Twitter gets to SCOTUS via the route of appeal.

No, you petitioned SCOTUS in the hopes that a Trump-appointed heavily conservative court would grant you the right to force your speech onto any online platform on which you delusionally believe you deserve a spot. SCOTUS told you to fuck off in legalese.

47 U.S. Code § 230 tells us that a 1996 ICS has neither speaker (or author) nor publisher liability with respect to 3rd party content. The statute says nothing about distributor liability.

A few things:

  1. That “1996 ICS” bullshit is irrelevant because the authors of Section 230 have gone on the record to say social media services like Twitter are still interactive computer services and thus protected by Section 230.
  2. At least two federal appeals courts have said much the same thing: the Ninth Circuit Court (Prager University v. Google LLC) and the Eleventh Circuit Court (NetChoice v. Attorney General, State of Florida).
  3. The “distributor liability” has never flown around here; if you can’t get us to buy into it, you’ll have an even harder time of getting a court to buy into it.
  4. Your assertions are bullshit unless they become binding legal precedent. Yes or no: Can you show us where your assertions have become binding legal precedent?

Once a social medium platform claims to enforce community standards, a defense of no knowledge is thrown out the window.

And if this were a copyright case, that might mean something. But it’s not. So you don’t. Also: Section 230 protects the right of interactive computer services to enforce community standards (per the First Amendment’s right of association) without facing legal liability for those decisions one way or the other, so good luck with climbing over that particular legal roadblock.

A white racist supporter of social medium discrimination is as dumb as a bucket of hair.

And a jackass who wants the fascist-leaning legal right to force his speech onto platforms that have previously said they don’t want to host it: He’s a fucking genius?

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

I petitioned SCOTUS for certiorari to the Court of the First Circuit before judgment chiefly in order to guarantee that SCOTUS does not uphold logically fallacious and moronic Zeran-based caselaw before Martillo v. Twitter gets to SCOTUS via the route of appeal. From all indications, the mission was a success.

That’s not how that works. They weren’t going to uphold anything if you did not petition SCOTUS because, according to you, there were no cases ongoing that would have addressed the issue in the first place at the time, and filing that petition would do nothing to prevent them from doing so if there was. I fail to see how this is even remotely a success.

47 U.S. Code § 230 tells us that a 1996 ICS has neither speaker (or author) nor publisher liability with respect to 3rd party content. The statute says nothing about distributor liability.

A distinction without a meaningful difference.

The normal defense to a complaint of distributor liability is an assertion, which alleges the distributor had no knowledge of the content. Once a social medium platform claims to enforce community standards, a defense of no knowledge is thrown out the window.

Which is exactly what §230 was meant to prevent. Furthermore, it is simply false that enforcement of community standards necessarily throws out a defense of no knowledge.

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