Stop Trying To Make State Action Doctrine Happen

from the non-state-action dept

I’ve spent many years criticizing government officials and politicians of both parties for threatening retaliation against individuals and companies for their speech. But there are some pretty clear lines of what counts as actual 1st Amendment violations in retaliating over speech, and what is just government folks mouthing off and expressing their own opinion. To be clear, I think government officials should mostly shut the fuck up, instead of trying to influence websites on how to moderate, but there’s a pretty big distance between unwise mouthing off and reaching the level where it becomes a state action issue.

The state action doctrine is not just that “government folks got mad, and some private actor took action,” but rather you have to show the government was actually responsible for the action, and not the private actor. Basically, the state needs to have fully compelled the action at issue, and usually that has to have included a very clear threat of government action against the private actor if they don’t take the steps desired.

Unfortunately, a bunch of bad faith actors have been pushing the ridiculous claim that government officials merely stating an opinion on certain content, then magically turns anyone who takes action on that same content into a state actor. This is silly. Two of the leading proponents of this nonsense theory are disgraced Yale Professor Jed Rubenfeld and some biotech exec who appears to be trying to grift off “anti-woke” sentiment, Vivek Ramaswamy.

A year and a half ago, they declared that because some people in Congress were saying that websites should moderate more content, that turned social media into state actors. It was an obviously nonsense claim. Rubenfeld, apparently with more time on his hands than common sense, then tried to use that argument to help anti-vaxxer Robert F. Kennedy Jr. win a case against Facebook. That failed as the court (rightfully) tossed the case and made it clear that just because some people in the government say something, and then a social media site takes action, it doesn’t magically turn the social media companies into state actors.

And, it should be obvious why that’s the right decision. If someone in government merely mused about “this content is problematic” and then as soon as any site took action it became a state actor, effectively any bad faith government official could block the 1st Amendment association and editorial rights of any website. Just get anyone in Congress to express their opinion that “so-and-so shouldn’t be on social media” and then — according to this nonsense theory — that person can never, ever be moderated.

That’s not how any of this works.

Anyway. Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy are back again — again in the pages of the WSJ Opinion section, because that’s the only place that will take them — to argue vindication, and that Twitter has become “a tool of government censorship.” The whole thing is based on bullshit from a bullshit artist.

You may recall that the “pandemic’s wrongest mansued Twitter over its decision to remove him from the site. Berenson was very, very sure that his case was incredibly strong. He was wrong. The judge tossed out nearly all of it, including every free speech claim, and left just a tiny portion to move forward hinting very strongly that, after discovery, the remaining tiny bit, exploring the possibility of promissory estoppel (i.e., did Twitter somehow “promise” Berenson he wouldn’t be kicked), he was ready to toss the rest.

Of course, discovery is expensive, distracting and time consuming. And Twitter’s lawyers are kinda busy on other matters, so it made sense that the company came to a settlement with Berenson that allowed him back on the site. This caused some people to highlight that Berenson had promised never to settle the case and to expose the deep dark secrets of Twitter’s moderation practices.

The latest is that Berenson revealed some internal Slack chats that he had obtained, showing Twitter employees recounting a meeting they had with White House officials asking why Berenson wasn’t banned from Twitter. Berenson presented this as proof that the White House “demanded Twitter ban me.”

Alex insists he’s now going to sue the White House, and dude, knock yourself out. As we’ve said, the government really should shut the fuck up in telling websites how to moderate, and that includes this. But I think it’s highly, highly unlikely that any court would find this reaching the level of actual 1st Amendment violation — but, hey, if he can set a precedent that government officials should stop trying to pressure companies about their editorial decisions, more power to him.

However, none of this makes Twitter “a state actor.” First, none of the revealed messages indicate actual “demands” or any other kind of threat of retaliation. All it shows is that White House officials asked why Berenson, elite spewer of misinformation, hadn’t violated Twitter’s policies. And asking questions like that is not a violation of anyone’s rights.

Second, as Berenson himself admits, this conversation happened “months before the company” actually did ban him. So, if you’re looking to show that the White House ordered it and Twitter complied, the timeline creates a pretty big problem for that.

Of course, idiots on Twitter have gone nuts over this, taking Berenson’s extremely misleading framing of this, and repeating over and over again that the White House “ordered” him to be blocked. Most of the media has been more circumspect, either not reporting on this non-story at all, or noting “Berenson claims” or (more accurately) “White House asked why…”

But, the Wall Street Journal editorial pages have no standards for accuracy or truth or anything. They’re basically the pure id of Rupert Murdoch’s fever dreams. So when Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy want to argue that this story proves Twitter is a state actor, the WSJ is more than happy to oblige. It’s all nonsense, though.

Facts that Mr. Berenson unearthed through the discovery process confirm that the administration has been secretly asking social-media companies to shut down the accounts of specific prominent critics of administration policy.

Except they weren’t asking them to shut down the accounts. They were asking why the companies didn’t consider Berenson to have violated its terms. Which is a legitimate question.

Last Friday Mr. Berenson published conversations from an internal Twitter Slack channel. Referring to an April 2021 meeting with White House officials, one Twitter employee noted that the meeting overall was “pretty good,” but added that the White House “had one really tough question about why Alex Berenson hasn’t been kicked off from the platform.”

Another employee asked: “Any high level takeaways from the meeting? Anything we should keep an eye out for?”

The first employee responded: “Yes, they really wanted to know about Alex Berenson.” The employee wrote that Andy Slavitt, then a senior White House Covid adviser, “suggested they had seen data viz that had showed he was the epicenter of disinfo that radiated outwards to the persuadable public.” (“Viz” probably stands for “visualization” and “disinfo” for “disinformation.”)

Again, literally all that shows is the White House asking about it. And, as Berenson’s buddy, Tucker Carlson, let’s us know all the time, “what’s wrong with just asking questions?” Again, none of this turns Twitter into a state actor.

Remember that this meeting happened many months before Twitter said Berenson violated its rules.

Private companies taking into account factual information provided by the government that shows users violated company policy does not make you into a state actor. Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy also point to actions taken by Facebook to remove disinfo as more proof — and again, all it shows is proof that the companies have their own policies and sometimes take action on them.

Recent Freedom of Information Act disclosures show that a week later, on July 23, 2021, Nick Clegg—a former U.K. deputy prime minister and now Facebook parent Meta’s president for global affairs—emailed Dr. Murthy to thank him for meeting with Facebook and to report on “the steps we took just this past week” to “further address the ‘disinfo dozen’: we removed 17 additional Pages, Groups, and Instagram accounts tied to the ‘disinfo dozen’ . . . resulting in every member . . . having had at least one such entity removed.” He added that Facebook was “continuing to make 4 other Pages and Profiles, which have not yet met their removal thresholds, more difficult to find on our platform.”

That’s a company taking actions based on its policies. It’s not evidence of state action.

Again, under the rules that Rubenfeld wants, if any government official ever calls out someone for disinformation, he seems to believe no website can ever take action against that person, no matter how frequently or how egregiously they break the rules.

That’s… disconnected from reality. It’s so disconnected from reality, Yale students taught by Rubenfeld should maybe consider demanding a refund.

When the government exploits these legislative inducements to target specific critics for censorship, it has crossed a constitutional Rubicon. Targeting, punishing and silencing dissenters is the paradigmatic First Amendment violation. The Biden administration is using Big Tech as its private censorship arm, and that violates what the Supreme Court, in Norwood v. Harrison (1973), called an “axiomatic” principle: The government “may not induce, encourage or promote private persons to accomplish what it is constitutionally forbidden to accomplish.”

Except… there were no legislative inducements going on here. This is just silly. The government asked “why didn’t these actions violate your policies” and the companies then looked to see if they did. That’s not what Rubenfeld and Ramaswamy are claiming.

Democracy depends on free and open debate. If government officials continue to deputize private companies to stifle dissenters, it’s high time for federal courts to deliver them a reminder: If it’s state action in disguise, the Constitution applies.

Again, I agree that government officials really should shut up on all this — but nothing described so far goes anywhere near the level necessary to be state action. It is not correct to say that the government cannot ask questions or call out what seems like false information.

This entire article further tarnishes whatever is left of Rubenfeld’s tattered reputation. State action doctrine means something. A government official asking “does this content violate your policies”… is not that.

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Comments on “Stop Trying To Make State Action Doctrine Happen”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

authoritarian instincts… of the left?

Have you not looked around lately at which party is the one trying to overturn elections, tell people what can and can’t be taught in schools…?

The right is going full fascist and you’re saying that it’s the left that has authoritarian instincts? Dude, get a grip on reality.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Have you not looked around lately at which party is the one trying to overturn elections,

Are you talking about Democrats occupying capitols to overturn election results they don’t like?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/

tell people what can and can’t be taught in schools…?

Are you suggesting parents should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in what is taught in the classroom? We should allow EVERYTHING from racist CRT to indoctrinating young children into sexual activity?

You’re on the wrong side of history.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No library can hold all books, therefore someone must decide which books will be present and which will not. Public libraries should not censor which books they hold based on the viewpoints of those books. School libraries should hold books that align with the school’s curriculum, since the purpose of school libraries is as an extension of educating the students.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There are only two sexes and genders. If by sexuality you mean preference for the gender of your partner, people can be straight, gay, or bisexual, so count that as you like.

When teaching about sex and gender, the curriculum should reflect that some people believe otherwise – that you can be a sex different from your body, or that it is wrong to have same-sex partners. Any sex-ed class worthy of the name is going to be teaching that the subject is fraught and controversial, with religion, culture and politics all playing a role in what people believe are right and wrong.

The only two problem with school libraries is that YA fiction authors have taken to including trans characters who are treated as the sex they wish they were, giving a very one-sided and wrong view of what it means to try to be trans

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

When teaching about sex and gender, the curriculum should reflect that some people believe otherwise – that you can be a sex different from your body, or that it is wrong to have same-sex partners.

For what reason should any sex-ed course worth a good god’s damn teach anyone that some people believe being gay or trans is a direct course to Hell because God doesn’t love queers?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I have three questions. Yes or no answers only, please; I know you’ll ramble on with your TERF-scripted bullshit if you’re not limited to that simple dichotomy.

  1. Should public schools teach, as a certifiable fact instead of merely an opinion, the notion that all queer people are going to Hell for existing as queer?
  2. Should public schools single out queer students for that instruction, as if a queer student needs to change themselves for the sake of comforting the ignorance of bigots and bullies like you?
  3. Do you believe queer people, regardless of their gender identity or sexual orientation, deserve to live openly without being shamed, assaulted, or killed for being who they are? (This is the question you’ll have the hardest time answering, because it requires you to think of trans people as people instead of things. That’s why I saved it for last.)
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It’s complicated because everything you’ve said and everyone you’ve sided with in re: what your allies would call “the transgender question” suggests that every one of those answers is wrong. You’ve gone out of your way to demean, diminish, and flat-out dismiss trans lives as little more than people being delusional⁠—and that’s the softest take you’ve had on the matter.

You’ve pushed your anti-trans agenda so hard these past few months that trying to yank back on it now comes off as a wholly insincere cover-my-ass moment. You might think you’re telling the truth here, but I can prove you’re not by altering all three questions in a small way. Again, yes or no to all of them:

  • Should public schools teach, as a certifiable fact instead of merely an opinion, the notion that all transgender people are going to Hell for existing as transgender?
  • Should public schools single out transgender students for that instruction, as if a trangender student needs to change themselves for the sake of comforting the ignorance of bigots and bullies like you?
  • Do you believe transgender people, regardless of their gender identity, deserve to live openly without being shamed, assaulted, or killed for being who they are? (Again: This is the question you’ll probably have the hardest time answering, because it requires you to think of trans people as people instead of things.)

Now you’re not thinking about gay, bi, and asexual people in addition to trans people⁠—now you’re thinking specifically about a demographic you’ve spent months trying to paint as delusional sociopaths at best and a threat to the natural order of all existence at worst.

If you’re trying to make anyone here think you’re not the TERF-supporting shitbag we can all see you are, you’re failing.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

No. Hell does not exist, and there is no life after death.

No. Schools should be teaching knowledge, not trying to get people to change their beliefs.

Yes. Everyone should be able to live by their professed beliefs regardless of what other people may think of them.

As usual, you cannot, or will not, understand the difference between someone living their own life according to their belief, and forcing other people to affirm those beliefs.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No. Hell does not exist, and there is no life after death.

FYI: Being an atheist won’t stop the TERFs from turning on you when you stop being a useful idiot to them.

No. Schools should be teaching knowledge, not trying to get people to change their beliefs.

And yet, you seem to have no problem with schools teaching the opinion that trans people are fundamentally “broken” alongside the knowledge that trans people exist. Curious. 🤔

Yes. Everyone should be able to live by their professed beliefs regardless of what other people may think of them.

If it weren’t for the fact that you support and lift rhetoric from a bunch of bigoted dickheads who think trans people shouldn’t have the right⁠—legal or moral⁠—to openly live as transgender, I’d almost think you give a shit about the humanity of trans people.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I don’t care who “turns on me”. Aside from the fact that I’m a nobody and no one cares what I say, I don’t care what other people think about me. My opinions are my opinions no matter what.

Public schools should be teaching that gender ideology is controversial, with (according to a recent Pew poll) 60% of Americans believing that people’s sex is the one they have noted at birth. It’s fine for them not to take sides. It’s not fine for them to actively teach lies.

Among the people whose opinion of me I don’t care about, you are included. But you are not entirely wrong; I often find myself disliking people who share some of my opinions because I find some of their other beliefs repugnant. C’est la vie.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Public schools should be teaching that gender ideology is controversial, with (according to a recent Pew poll) 60% of Americans believing that people’s sex is the one they have noted at birth.

[citation needed] I’m pretty sure that either you are misstating the question asked or that the percent was much higher given that virtually no one is saying that one’s sex can differ from what it was at birth.

No wait… Actually, I’m now noticing that that you said the sex that they have noted at birth. In that case, 60% of Americans are simply wrong. There are documented cases where a doctor has examined an intersex baby and misidentified their sex. This isn’t even a political opinion; it’s simply and objectively false that people’s sex are necessarily what was noted at birth.

Either way, this has nothing to do with gender identity or what is claimed by transgender people or pro-transgender activists unless you are severely misquoting Pew’s survey question. Now, I could believe that 60% of Americans believe that one’s gender is the sex that was there at birth, that the vast majority of Americans (accurately) believe that one’s physiological sex is the same as at birth in most meaningful senses, or that most Americans (falsely) believe that one’s sex is always the one that was noted at birth, but only the first one is relevant to issues about gender identity.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Then you must challenge every trans person’s identity and existence, given that⁠—in your own words and under every bit of anti-trans logic you’ve ever posted on this site⁠—their asking you to use their preferred name and pronouns is an attempt to force their pro-trans beliefs on you.

You could just say nothing, but you’ve gone out of your way to state that you won’t⁠—that you’ll tell a trans person they’re wrong (your words, not mine) if they say they’re trans. Remember: You’re the one trying to force a belief system down someone’s throat. Trans people just want to exist without having their basic humanity dismissed because you’re a right-wing pervert who’s obsessed with their genitals.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

No. Changed names are fine. There is nothing intrinsic about a name, and people should be called whatever they like. Pronouns are borderline. Because they are so tied to sex, using the wrong pronouns for someone can have deeper implications. For me, it’s fine to use preferred pronouns out of politeness, but it’s not fine if those pronouns are meant to be an affirmation that the person is the sex they want to be, not the sex they are. It’s going to be situational.

Now, we have stories like this: https://bleedingcool.com/tv/she-hulk-star-jameela-jamil-faces-backlash-over-misgendering-response/
The more people are attacked for “misgendering”, the more use of preferred pronouns should be resisted, because the balance becomes shifted over to forcing people to affirm false beliefs rather than being polite. (There is no such thing as a “non-binary” person anyway.)

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Pronouns are borderline. Because they are so tied to sex, using the wrong pronouns for someone can have deeper implications. For me, it’s fine to use preferred pronouns out of politeness, but it’s not fine if those pronouns are meant to be an affirmation that the person is the sex they want to be, not the sex they are. It’s going to be situational.

Then just use “they”/“them”. No one is offended by that, and it has no implication about gender or sex.

The more people are attacked for “misgendering”, the more use of preferred pronouns should be resisted, because the balance becomes shifted over to forcing people to affirm false beliefs rather than being polite.

  1. You still haven’t given an example of a belief actually held by transgender or non-binary people that is actually, demonstrably false. The only ones you’ve alleged are either entirely opinions and cannot be proven or disproven (a belief that their gender identity differs from their physiological sex), backed up by scientific research and expert consensus (belief that gender identity is a real thing with a biological backing), not something actually claimed by transgender people to begin with (a belief that men could become women or vice versa), or some combination of the above (that gender and sex are two different things). Even if you don’t agree with one or more of the aforementioned beliefs, there is no objective indication that any of their actual beliefs are false, and you have not demonstrated them to be such.
  2. Using someone’s preferred pronouns is being polite even if it makes you uncomfortable and even if you think it goes too far. This is also true even if you are being forced to do so. While I would disagree with the idea that being condemned for misgendering someone intentionally (outside of very specific circumstances) is going too far, and I don’t think this is one of those cases, it is possible for politeness to not necessarily be the right thing to do or to go too far.
  3. As mentioned, there are ways to not “affirm false beliefs”, as you put it, without misgendering someone.

(There is no such thing as a “non-binary” person anyway.)

  1. Yes, there absolutely is. A non-binary person is simply someone who doesn’t identify as a man or a woman. Even if you don’t believe that their identities are legitimate or that they are delusional, they still exist. It is also irrelevant if you believe that gender is binary.
  2. Even physiological sex isn’t truly binary; it’s bimodal. Binary sex means that there is absolutely no intersection between the two sexes and that there are no exceptions. The mere fact that intersex people exist disproves that much.
melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Has it occurred to you that by restricting libraries to books “align[ed] with the school’s curriculum” — and I remind you that the state department of education, a political entity, sets the curriculum (as my home state Florida has so vividly demonstrated in recent months) — you’re simply sneaking ideology in through the back door?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Public school curriculum is the speech of the government, and the government is allowed to speak as it wishes. They’re is no 1st Amendment obligation for public schools to teach views contrary to the curriculum, nor to allow teachers to speak those views in the classroom, since teachers are government employees speaking for the government while on the job.

It would be better for free speech if teachers were allowed to speak their minds, as long as all sides were able to do so, including those who wanted to speak about their own religious beliefs, or were opposed to the various ideologies that other teachers supported.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It is the job of the state to set the curriculum for its public schools. Ideology cannot help but be imposed when schools have to teach issues that are controversial and have substantial support for both sides. Ideally, they would be teaching the controversy, but in practice, whichever party is in control seeks to teach only its version of what it believes.

melonlord (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Your argument has dramatically shifted. First it was “libraries can only hold so many books”; now it’s “ideology is always present in education, so it’s okay when it’s my ideology being forced upon students.”

If you want queer people to disappear, just say so. You’ve come pretty close elsewhere in this thread.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Libraries can only hold so many books and the state sets the curriculum for public schools. These two statements are not contradictory. It is up to the people of the state to decide what is taught, by electing the people in charge, and then perhaps filing lawsuits if they feel constitutional provisions are being violated. Inevitably, some people will feel that tournament ideologies are being imposed on their children, and then they will have to decide whether to keep their children in the public schools or send them elsewhere. Florida says don’t say gay. New York says don’t say boy’s penis.

Meanwhile, school libraries exist to further the education of the students. Why would you not expect their books to align with the curriculum?

I do not want queer people to disappear, but I absolutely refuse to allow queer theorists to force people to affirm their beliefs about themselves.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Meanwhile, school libraries exist to further the education of the students. Why would you not expect their books to align with the curriculum?

Because, in part, they are their to extend the resources available to students beyond what is taught in the curriculum. You only limit students to a curriculum if you are trying to indoctrinate into a religious or political cult..

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

school libraries exist to further the education of the students

Some schools might believe letting students expose themselves to stories about people who aren’t like them (e.g., white kids reading stories about Black people, straight kids reading stories about queer people) will teach students empathy, which can help lessen strife between students.

Some schools seem to believe denying students such an experience is a better approach, given how the books most often targeted under conservative-led book bans are written by/about/for non-white/non-cishet people.

Given your opposition to CRT, teaching facts about racism, and queer people being allowed to exist openly in society without your permission? I can tell which one you think is the superior approach.

I do not want queer people to disappear, but I absolutely refuse to allow queer theorists to force people to affirm their beliefs about themselves.

“Wanting queer people to shut up and go away forever is a 100% totally different thing than wanting them to die and go away forever.” — your mindset, probably

Don’t you ever get tired of all the hate? Aren’t you tired of living in fear of other people’s genitals?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Calling disagreement hate is par for the course for ideologues who want to silence dissent.

“Books written for non-white … people” is one of the wrong things about woke race ideology. Books are books. Books on any subject may be written by anyone and read by anyone. It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art, like Dana Schutz and Jeanine Cummins.

I do not want queer people to shut up and go away, any more than I want Christians to shut up and go away. Refusing to affirm someone’s wrong ideology is not the same as silencing them, although I can see why you would think so, since that’s what left-wing cancel culture is about. Queer people can speak their mind and make their claims all they want. So can people who tell them they’re wrong

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

“Books written for non-white … people” is one of the wrong things about woke race ideology.

Of course you have a problem with Black people writing books they intended to write for a largely Black audience.

Books on any subject may be written by anyone and read by anyone.

I’m well aware. But there’s a big difference between a white author and a Black author writing a book about Black characters, and you’re too afraid to say so because then you’d have to admit to a lot of other things about race that frighten the fuck out of you to even think about admitting.

It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art

And the people deciding that books by and about people of color are the ones that need to be yanked from school and public libraries⁠—are they not race ideologues, or do you not give a fuck about them because they’re whi—sorry, right?

I do not want queer people to shut up and go away

The exterminationist rhetoric you lifted from TERFs says otherwise, but go off, you wannabe federal genital inspector.

any more than I want Christians to shut up and go away

Well of course you don’t want them to go away⁠—conservative Christians are, by and large, on the same side of the…oh, what would you call it…the “trans debate” as you are. They’re just more open about wanting to see trans people gone (one way or another) than you are, you coward.

Refusing to affirm someone’s wrong ideology is not the same as silencing them, although I can see why you would think so

Your refusal to treat trans people as people isn’t what silences them. It’s your refusal to leave them be in peace⁠—your desire to govern and micromanage their lives so they won’t ever make you or your TERF allies uncomfortable with ever having to think about gender spectrums and shifting gender roles and all the shit that you think needs to be upheld to restore “order” in a chaotic world. When I talk of exterminationist rhetoric, that’s what I mean: You want to harass trans people out of the public eye and harangue them into either the closet or the grave.

You don’t have to like trans people. You don’t even have to “affirm their ideology” (i.e., treat them with some semblance of dignity). But you’re talking about trans people like they need to be stopped⁠—one way or another⁠—from “transing kids” or some other “they’re evil” bullshit when trans people only ever want people like you and your TERF allies to leave them the fuck alone.

Queer people can speak their mind and make their claims all they want. So can people who tell them they’re wrong

The fact that you think you can disagree with people daring to exist as queer says everything that needs to be said about you and your ideology.

None of it is good.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It is woke race ideologues who try to stop the “wrong” people from creating art,

Well that makes Ron DeSantis and Greg Abbot leaders of ‘Woke’ political parties, as they are the ones leading the charge on removing books by people in the LGBT and Black communities.

You have bought into the ideology of those who would tutn the US into a fascist state, are you hoping to be wearing the Jackboot, rather than being trampled on by them.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Republicans are filth.

Libraries should not be removing books based on their viewpoints. But books aimed at young people that are about controversial topics have always been the target of removal efforts, and the left providing the right with a poster child target of a graphic novel for teens with illustrations of queer oral sex is a special own goal.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

And yet, you support the eradication of “woke race ideology” and “woke gender ideology”, as do many right-wingers⁠—including the politicians, protestors, and trained operatives who are in favor of, and carrying out, book bans across the country that target books written by, for, and about people of color/queer people. Curious. 🤔

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Books in School libraries are not limited to the curriculum, but include many more reference works and fiction books than a school could include in a curriculum. So stop trying to equate in the Library as taught as part of the curriculum.

Books should not be banned except when part of a school library is finding excuses to ban books while pretending you are against such bans.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Would you be OK if the school libraries carried both Gender Queer and Irreversible Damage? That would be fine with me.

Would you be OK if they carried the one you hate and not the one you like?

It’s not that school libraries must not carry books that contradict the curriculum or reality, just that it’s OK if they don’t.

If a school library has a book that points out as a historical fact that several of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, would that “contradict the curriculum or reality”?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

If, as in New York, woke gender ideology was the policy of the school curriculum, I would not be surprised if school libraries chose to stock Gender Queer but not Irreversible Damage. They would have the right to do so, but since I believe that woke gender ideology is a lie, I would hope that such a choice would be publicized and protested, so that criticism would drive the schools away from those teachings.

It does not contradict reality to say that the Founders owned slaves. I would hope it would not contradict the curriculum either, since schools should be teaching the truth.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

If, as in New York, woke gender ideology was the policy of the school curriculum

[citation needed]

since I believe that woke gender ideology is a lie, I would hope that such a choice would be publicized and protested, so that criticism would drive the schools away from those teachings

Would you prefer schools teach⁠ that all gay people are filthy subhuman child molesters, the existence of trans people is a myth that needs to be “stomped out” (figuratively or literally), and cishets are the only people made in God’s righteous image and thus the only people worth treating like people instead of things? All your shit makes you sound like the goddamn Christian nationalists trying to ban books from libraries with the intent of later burning those books (or maybe even those libraries…and possibly even the librarians).

It does not contradict reality to say that the Founders owned slaves. I would hope it would not contradict the curriculum either, since schools should be teaching the truth.

And yet, damn near every time someone brings up that fact in these comments, you accuse them of being “woke race ideologists” who are out to oppress white people and whatever else you think you can make stick when you throw it at the wall. Curious. 🤔

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I have several times pointed to the New York State document that says that teachers should not refer to a “boy’s penis”, just a “penis”. Only boys have a penis, unless your curriculum is woke gender ideology.
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I would teach that some men believe that they are women and vice versa and choose to adopt dress and behavior stereotypical of the gender they believe they are. Other people believe that this is a delusion. This is part of a huge cultural battle going on. As good citizens of a free country, we should respect the beliefs of people who disagree with us, but not allow demands for respect to be treated as demands to change our beliefs or behavior. Gender beliefs should be treated like religious beliefs.

I would also teach that it is impossible, given our level of technology, to physically change people’s sex, and attempts to do so through medication and surgery may lead to damaged bodies that are impossible to restore.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

I have several times pointed to the New York State document that says that teachers should not refer to a “boy’s penis”, just a “penis”. Only boys have a penis, unless your curriculum is woke gender ideology.

If only boys have a penis, as you insist, for what reason does any instruction on the anatomy of the human body need to mention the sex of the person to whom the penis belongs? If anything, the prior version of the teaching was arguably closer to whatever your idea of “woke gender ideology” is than the new version, since the old version could be read to imply that a girl can have a penis.

Gender beliefs should be treated like religious beliefs.

One gender should be declared superior above all others by people of that gender who have both large amounts of sociopolitical power and longstanding cultural privilege? I mean, replace “gender” with “religion” and you’ve got Christian nationalists, my semi-fascist.

Also: You don’t have to accept “trans ideology” any more than you have to accept someone else’s religious beliefs, but you could at least try to hide your open and deeply-held contempt for trans people.

I would also teach that it is impossible, given our level of technology, to physically change people’s sex, and attempts to do so through medication and surgery may lead to damaged bodies that are impossible to restore.

And what will you teach after that⁠? Will you teach that trans people are irrevocably broken by virtue of their existence and need a treatment that can “fix” them⁠—like, say, a type of “therapy” that can “convert” their fragile minds into the proper cisgender state that the Christian God intended?

Because let’s not act like you don’t know where you’re going with your bullshit. We can all see the direction your rhetoric is headed. You’re just too much of a coward to admit it.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Once again, you are arguing with an imaginary version of me who says what you want him to say. Sad.

Trans people may hold any gender ideology that they like, and should not be coerced into affirming any beliefs. They should, however, extend the same privilege to those who disagree with them. Naturally, as a member of the cancel culture left wing, you would like to refuse to permit that. But you will not get your way.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

Trans people may hold any gender ideology that they like, and should not be coerced into affirming any beliefs. They should, however, extend the same privilege to those who disagree with them.

You’re allowed to believe whatever the fuck you want about trans people. What you’re not allowed to do is use your beliefs to justify treating trans people like things to be discarded because they’re, as you yourself put it, “broken”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

Before discarding broken people or treating them as things, we should try to provide ways for them to mend themselves. For people with gender dysphoria and other associated mental illness, that should include treatment to learn to live comfortably in their bodies or treatment to transition, as they wish, provided that they or their guardians are competent to make such choices.

Discarding broken people should happen when they are living (and defecating) in crazed, drug-addled, drunken states on the streets, and even then, “discarding” should mean shipping them off to a place where they can be housed and fed and bathed without normal people needing to step over them or fear what they might do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Public schools should not teach lies

I wonder if it’s a lie when someone teaches that the Founding Fathers owned slaves, the Constitution didn’t initially free enslaved Black people, and queer people exist. A lot of the book bans and “don’t teach [x]” laws are going after the sorts of things I mentioned.

“The point of public education is to make citizens capable together of living together in a diverse community. If all you’ve gotten is white-washed history and that everybody was a good guy and don’t talk about stuff that makes some people uncomfortable, then the minute you graduate and walk into a community where there are people with different views, and where there are bad things that have persisted since the beginning our country that have gone acknowledged, when you walk into the real world outside of the classroom, you are less capable of participating in democracy.” — Eric Liu

people should be able to write and read whatever books they want

And yet, there are plenty of conservatives who would love to ban (and burn) certain books that they think nobody should read. Predictably, those books end up being ones written by, for, and about people of color/queer people. By supporting their crusades against “woke race ideology” and “woke gender ideology”, you are implicitly supporting their attempts to remove those books from public view and tell people “nobody should get to read this if I think my kids shouldn’t be reading this”.

Where they burn books, soon they will burn people. After all, it’s easy to burn someone if you see them as a inhuman thing instead of a sentient living being. Treating people like things, that’s where it starts…

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

People can be wrong, and when they are, it is up to people who know better to point out that those people are wrong, to prevent their errors from causing damage. It is not mistreating people to point out that they are wrong, and their cries that they are being abused and treated like things because their beliefs are not being affirmed impose no obligation on anyone to stop pointing out their errors.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

It is not mistreating people to point out that they are wrong, and their cries that they are being abused and treated like things because their beliefs are not being affirmed impose no obligation on anyone to stop pointing out their errors.

That is not allowing them to peacefully exist, but rather aggressively attacking them for what they are. Continuously pointing out where you think that are wrong is abusive, and says that you want to force them to change.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Not their existence, their condition. It’s the same thing we tell people with any other mental illness. More to the point, we should not allow ideologues to force people to affirm that such illnesses are not illnesses, while allowing them to believe that for themselves it that’s what they want.

In a society that values freedom of speech and thought, people can hear their most cherished beliefs dismissed as nonsense. That’s the way it should be.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Not their existence, their condition.

SAME FUCKING DIFFERENCE.

You can’t “cure” gender dysphoria any more than you can “cure” someone of being gay or being autistic or having brown skin of any shade. To imply that a trans person is a fundamentally broken person who can only be “fixed” with attempts to “cure” their dysphoria⁠—e.g., the physical and psychological torture known as “conversion ‘therapy’ ”⁠—is some flat-out religious bullshit. It implies both that you know what’s best for that trans person (and all others) and that the only “correct” way for anyone to exist in re: their gender identity is the way you…I mean, God intended (i.e., within the gender binary and according to strict gender roles).

In a society that values freedom of speech and thought, people can hear their most cherished beliefs dismissed as nonsense.

Yeah, and in this society, guess what cherished belief trans people get to hear dismissed as nonsense every day by people like you. (Hint: It’s “I should be able to live without worrying about people trying to harass me into the closet or the grave only because of who I am”.)

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Amazon chooses not to sell When Harry Became Sally, so it’s not as if gender ideologues don’t speak out of both sides of their mouths.

School libraries are extensions of schools, and it’s not unreasonable of them to stock only books that accord with their curriculum. Public schools express the speech of the government, and the government may speak for itself as it chooses.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Amazon chooses not to sell When Harry Became Sally

That doesn’t stop people from being able to find it elsewhere. Ban a book in a school/public library and that book stops being available to someone who might want to check it out. Even if they could buy the book elsewhere, they may have an inability to do so⁠—which is why that book being available in a library would be important for them. But of course you’d rather those books be gone from library shelves⁠—you and your TERF allies think nobody should be able to read them, whereas those who rail against books like When Harry Became Sally have less of a problem with people reading/buying it and more of a problem with the fact that a megacorporation would choose to carry and promote a book that will only ever worsen the existing (and sadly growing) hate for trans people.

Amazon can make whatever decision it wants about selling that book. But every decision has consequences. It ain’t my fault if Amazon execs figured out which set of consequences would have the least impact on its business and chose accordingly.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

School libraries and public libraries are different. Public libraries should never been books based on their viewpoint. School libraries exist to supplement student education, and should select their books accordingly. It will be up to the state to decide whether books that contradict the curriculum will be permitted.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

School libraries exist to supplement student education, and should select their books accordingly.

Yes or no: Should those libraries be penalized if they choose to stock age-appropriate books written by/for/about people of color and queer people?

Keep in mind that saying “yes” will be a tacit admission that the state should control what books students can and can’t read at school based on the complaints of a handful of conservative parents who believe in the pro-ignorance ideology of “if I don’t want my child to read this, nobody’s child should get to read this”. (It’s also a tacit admission that such logic can work both ways, which opens the door for liberal parents to challenge the inclusion of materials such as the Bible. Every coin has two sides, after all.)

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Public and public school libraries are government institutions, and the government may speak for itself any way it wishes. It is meaningless to speak of public libraries being penalized; the government may organize them as it wishes, subject to Constitutional requirements. Government employees, such as public librarians, do not have a 1st Amendment right to speak as they wish as part of their jobs.

The actions of the government are driven by politics. People with varying opinions will communicate with their government officials, protest, sue, and vote in accordance with their beliefs, and the outcome will determine how the government organizes its activities.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

That’s cute, that you didn’t actually answer the question.

It is meaningless to speak of public libraries being penalized

No. It isn’t.

Then again, I doubt you have even one issue with an entire library facing closure by its government for daring to stock books that were written by/for/about queer people. You probably love the idea of people of all ages being unable to access those kinds of books, given how you’re a TERF fascist who wants trans people exterminated.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22

The people of that community voted against raising taxes to support the library. That’s called democracy. But of course, left-wing ideologues like you accept democracy only when the vote comes out your way.

Public libraries should stock a wide variety of books and not censor which books they stock based on viewpoint. But public libraries are supported by the taxes of their community, so advocates for libraries must be able to convince enough people in the community to vote in their favor. That will inevitably be subject to politics and the culture war.

Also, you need to see someone about those exterminationist paranoid fantasies you keep writing about.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:23

The people of that community voted against raising taxes to support the library. That’s called democracy.

And they made a shitty decision and I’m allowed to critique that decision, no matter how much you agree with the idea that libraries should either remove queer-friendly books or shut down forever.

But of course, left-wing ideologues like you accept democracy only when the vote comes out your way.

I accepted the result of the 2016 election. I didn’t like it, but I accepted it. The people refusing to accept democracy seem to be people who voted for/kissed the ass of Donald Trump.

Public libraries should stock a wide variety of books and not censor which books they stock based on viewpoint.

And yet, you’re all in favor of shutting down a library that refuses to remove books fom said library that a minority of people think everyone else shouldn’t get to read. Curious. 🤔

But public libraries are supported by the taxes of their community, so advocates for libraries must be able to convince enough people in the community to vote in their favor.

Yes or no: Should library funding be held hostage by conservative activists and right-wing lawmakers who threaten to defund libraries that refuse to remove queer-friendly books, even when such books make up a miniscule amount of the library’s collection?

you need to see someone about those exterminationist paranoid fantasies you keep writing about

You’re the one who supports and lifts rhetoric from TERFs, not me. I’m not a fucking fascist like the people whose side you’re on in re: what they most certainly call “the transgender question”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:24

Public libraries are funded and run by the government. Government officials are voted in by the people. Libraries are not being “held hostage”, they are part of the same citizen give-and-take that all governance sees. I would vote against any public official who wanted libraries to censor books based on viewpoint, but I am only one person. If enough people are discontented with the decisions being made, they will select people more in line with what they want. That’s called democracy.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:25

I would vote against any public official who wanted libraries to censor books based on viewpoint

I somehow doubt that, considering the people calling for such bans are likely the kind of people who are in lockstep with your anti-trans views.

If enough people are discontented with the decisions being made, they will select people more in line with what they want.

Right-wingers are discontented enough to select people who will ban books (and maybe shut down entire libraries) based on the fact that they’re written about/by/for queer people. Your claim that you’d vote against such people seems kind of bullshit when TERFs are helping lead the cause of banning pro-queer/pro-trans books.

Libraries are more than the books they carry. That you see nothing wrong with shutting down an important public resource over a handful of books that affirm the basic humanity of transgender people says a lot about you⁠—and it begins with the words “I am a bastard-coated bastard with bastard filling”.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:26

There is a great deal wrong with shutting down public libraries when those libraries stock books without censoring them based on viewpoint. I don’t think I’ve seen librarians defend their libraries by saying that they stock both Gender Queer and Irreversible Damage, but I may have missed that. If librarians are stocking books with only one-sided political views, they should not be surprised if a community that opposes those views refuses to fund them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:27

There is a great deal wrong with shutting down public libraries when those libraries stock books without censoring them based on viewpoint.

And if a library stocks literally a handful of queer-friendly books amongst all its other offerings⁠—is that reason enough to start threatening libraries with (among other things) shutdowns to “protect the children” from evil?

Go back to Kiwifa⁠—oh wait you can’t

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Republicans are filth.

And yet, you support their attempts to rid schools of “woke [x] ideologies”, which often take the forms of book bans that target non-white/non-cishet authors and laws that forbid the teaching⁠—or even the mention⁠—of certain subjects (or certain ways of teaching those subjects). Curious. 🤔

the left providing the right with a poster child target of a graphic novel for teens with illustrations of queer oral sex is a special own goal

Three things.

  1. Take out the oral sex and I’m sure the right would still have a problem with the graphic novel.
  2. Teenagers can see more graphic depictions of queer oral sex on the Internet than they ever could in a graphic novel published in the United States.
  3. You ever notice how everyone on the right has a problem with “liberal art”, but they’re not especially keen on putting forth good examples of “conservative art”? (Hint: Conservatives like you can’t make great art because great art requires a spirit of transgression, a sense of introspection/self-awareness, and at least a little bit of the anti-authoritarianism that conservatives will always lack. Look at Christian media, for God’s sake.)
Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Of course not. The evil of woke race ideology is not in teaching true history. It is in blaming white people now for the failures of the ideologues’ favored victim groups. Aside from the fact that white people outside the echo chambers aren’t having any of this, because the ideology is wrong, it will be of no help to the people who need it. But to woke ideologues of all stripes, professing belief in the ideology is much more important than whether it is true.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The evil of woke race ideology is not in teaching true history.

And yet, every time I’ve mentioned that several of the Founding Fathers owned slaves, you’ve had a bit of a conniption fit about that fact because you apparently think I’m saying “the Founding Fathers were the second-worst evil to ever exist”. (If you have to ask what the worst was, you’re way more gone than I thought.)

What you have is a problem with people teaching history that doesn’t conform to a whitewashed view of history where (among other ideas that wash over the original sin of the United States) the Founding Fathers are morally righteous demigods. You don’t want people to think any less of Washington and Jefferson because they owned slaves, because you think that fact totally erases their accomplishments as the founders and first leaders of this country.

It is in blaming white people now for the failures of the ideologues’ favored victim groups.

Nobody teaches this. Not even Critical Race Theory⁠—the one that is actually taught only in higher education⁠—teaches that. Hell, CRT teaches that systemic racism can be so pervasive that people affected by it can uphold it without meaning to do so.

What you have a problem with is the fact that the systems set up to govern the United States today are all born from the systems of the past, all the way back to the days of the Founding Fathers⁠—systems, I should note, that were built on the ideas that white people were a superior race and land-owning white men were the only people that mattered socially, politically, and economically. Those systems evolved into what we have today, and until we’re able to grapple with the roots of those systems, we’ll never be able to uproot those systems and “plant” something better in their place.

to woke ideologues of all stripes, professing belief in the ideology is much more important than whether it is true

I’m probably what you’d consider to be a “woke ideologue”, and I don’t espouse that belief because it isn’t true.

What is true? Historically, the United States has privileged white people⁠ over all other racial groups, men over women, Christians over all other religious groups, and cishets over non-cishets. Historically, the privileged groups have often fought to retain their privilege by any means necessary⁠—up to and including the War to Preserve Slavery (a.k.a. the Civil War). Historically, the privileged groups designed systems and institutions to stymie any push for equality⁠—this includes shit like redlining and (now-unnecessary) homophobic bans on blood donations.

Yes, there is an oppressor class in each of the dichotomies I pointed out earlier. No, that doesn’t mean everyone who belongs to the oppressor class is an oppressor. Yes, that means intersectionality is a thing (e.g., a white man can be both an anti-racist and a misogynist). No, that doesn’t mean tossing everyone under a bus because they belong to a specific oppressor class.

I’m white, bi, atheist, cisgender, and male. If I go by what I wrote above, I belong to three oppressor groups (white, cisgender, and male). That doesn’t mean I’ve oppressed anyone, plan to oppress anyone, or want to oppress anyone. It means that the accident of my birth gave me sociopolitical privileges that some people don’t have. If anything, being cognizant of that fact is more likely to help me check my privileges at the door than use them to get a leg up on someone else. If I get anywhere in life, I want to get there because of my ability, not my gender or skin color.

By the same token, I also belong to two oppressed groups (bisexuals and atheists). That doesn’t mean I’ve been directly oppressed⁠—but it does mean that I stand a chance of being oppressed based on those two traits. But I’m not going to blame all Christians or all heterosexuals if I’m denied a job or a home or something else because of my sexual orientation or my (lack of) religion. I’m going to blame the person who denied me and the systems that privilege Christians and straight people⁠—systems that the person who denied me may not even realize they’re upholding.

You talk of “woke ideologues” as if they’re a hivemind⁠—as if a radical belief a handful of people might hold is a standard to everyone who isn’t a conservative “anti-woke” shithead. I’m here to assure you that not only are you wrong, you’re one of those shitheads. The fact that you see nothing wrong with denying children access to age-appropriate books about people of color and queer people⁠—books that could teach them empathy for those people⁠—while repeating the same scripted lies as your TERF allies is your problem. Fix it yourself.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

You are wrong. First of all, all current systems are evolved from earlier ones, so that statement is both tautological and vacuous. Second, it is useless to “grapple with roots of the system”. That’s just something that stupid woke academics believe, because it’s their job to produce unreadable garbage for their journals. To help people, it is necessary to find out what is causing them trouble right now, and try to find solutions that directly address those problems.

I watched my local news in NYC the other night. The lead story was about two Black women who got into a fist fight, then one got into a car and drove into the sidewalk after the other one, killing a man who was sitting on his walker. The next story was about Black men shooting from the moonroof of a moving car. Then a Black woman who was grazed in the face by a bullet. All in the Bronx, just in a day. It is a joke to thing that “grappling with root issues” is going to do anything to keep those people safe. What will keep people safe is a return to stop-and-frisk and to broken-windows policing. But woke race ideologues will as ever refuse to face reality that doesn’t cover with their theories.

Oh, and I assume the worst evil you’re talking about is Communism?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

it is useless to “grapple with roots of the system”

No, it isn’t⁠—unless you think you can rebuild a foundation without first tearing down the old one. Anything built on top of a shitty foundation is eventually going to crumble; one can only put up so much tape and plaster and whatever to stop that from happening before the effort is for naught.

Admitting that the foundation is bad to begin with is the first step to replacing it with something better. But you can’t replace what you won’t even acknowledge exists⁠—or what you insist isn’t a problem.

(I bet you would’ve gone right along with redlining back in its heyday. Chances are good that I would’ve, too⁠—but at least I’ve got the balls to say as much.)

To help people, it is necessary to find out what is causing them trouble right now, and try to find solutions that directly address those problems.

Fixing up the building without trying to repair/replace the foundation only makes the building look prettier before it eventually implodes.

You can “solve” homelessness with more housing, but that doesn’t get to the root of what creates and perpetuates homelessness: economic desperation. To truly address homelessness, we have to look at and address the factors that create homelessness, such as the artificial scarcity driving up housing prices and the stagnant wages that prevent upward social mobility. Ignoring those root causes ensures that we’ll see the problem perpetuate itself⁠—and worsen along the way⁠—before it ever gets any better.

It is a joke to thing that “grappling with root issues” is going to do anything to keep those people safe.

What do you mean, “those people”? 🤨

And no, grappling with the root issues of violence and socioeconomic despair won’t “keep[ ]people safe” in the short-term. It’s not supposed to⁠—it’s supposed to look at ways of addressing those problems in a long-term vision that gradually decreases problems. A shitty foundation can’t be replaced or repaired in a single day⁠—of course you’d need to temporarily shore it up until it can be fixed. But temporary measures are just that; they shouldn’t be relied upon as permanent relief, no matter the temptation to ignore long-term problems in favor of short-term solutions.

What will keep people safe is a return to stop-and-frisk and to broken-windows policing.

Thank you for confirming that you’re a racist son of a bitch in addition to an exterminationist TERF. Wanna throw some ableism in there and really work your way towards being full-on TRASH?

I assume the worst evil you’re talking about is Communism?

I was talking about Hitler, you incredible moron. You know, the fascist who led a regime that, among many other (in)famous atrocities, burned a library’s worth of scientific research about queer people and murdered an untold number of “degenerates” as part of the Holocaust?

…oh, wait, nevermind⁠—I’m sure you don’t have a problem with those specific atrocities.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I am ableist, in fact. People with handicaps are broken; they can’t do the same stuff that normal people can. There’s nothing wrong with saying that, unless you believe in yet another woke ideology.

Communism was worse than Nazism: https://reason.com/2013/03/13/communism-killed-94m-in-20th-century/ And of course, one feature of Soviet Communism was Lysenkoism, which denied physical biological reality and led to agricultural disaster. Denying physical reality is baked into woke ideology.

Redlining affected lots of white people too: https://reason.com/2022/02/01/how-to-talk-about-racism/

If you don’t get your favored victim groups to take responsibility for their behavior, nothing else you try will make any difference at all. All this talk about foundations is garbage dedicated to making sure that your favored victim groups never face criticism.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I am ableist, in fact. People with handicaps are broken; they can’t do the same stuff that normal people can.

I mean…uh…wow, I didn’t expect you to come right out and say “disabled people suck”, but…damn, dude.

Communism was worse than Nazism

Nazism still lives on within the United States as fascism (and the barely-an-offshoot that is Christian nationalism). Can’t really say the same for communism, especially since American fascists are⁠ capitalists.

one feature of Soviet Communism was Lysenkoism, which denied physical biological reality and led to agricultural disaster.

Are you seriously trying to imply that all transgender people are, only by virtue of existing as trans, automatically communists? Jesus, you TERF motherfuckers really will blame trans people for every conceivable thing.

Redlining affected lots of white people too

But it was a system designed first and foremost to negatively affect Black people. That people from other racial groups were hurt by the system doesn’t change the fact of who the system was designed to hurt.

If you don’t get your favored victim groups to take responsibility for their behavior, nothing else you try will make any difference at all.

Then how about you tell all your TERF allies to stop calling in bomb threats to children’s hospitals, you son of a bitch.

All this talk about foundations is garbage dedicated to making sure that your favored victim groups never face criticism.

No, it isn’t. The foundation metaphor is about systemic discrimination and how to approach it in both short- and long-term thinking: short-term to mitigate the effects of a discriminatory system, long-term to prevent those effects from ever being a thing again. When you build a system on top of a solid foundation⁠—i.e., when you design a system to avoid discrimination as much as possible and adapt to any flaws that approach will inevitably have⁠—you’ll have a much better system on your hands. Build a system on a shitty foundation⁠—i.e., build a system based on upholding, say, white male cishet supremacy⁠—and that foundation will eventually crumble, taking everything on top of it with it. You can’t hold up a shitty foundation forever; you must either overhaul it or replace it altogether.

If you want to criticize entire groups of people based on the actions of a partial number of that group⁠—e.g., painting all Black people as “lazy” because some Black people are lazy⁠—you go right ahead and stereotype the people you want to attack. But that approach will eventually make you a TRASH person. (You’re three-fifths of the way there by your own admission.)

Feel free to criticize the actions of individuals/smaller groups, but don’t act like they’re 100% representative of an entire demographic. That leads to the stereotyping and hatred of individual people for no reason other than (among other things) the circumstances of their birth. That kind of stereotyping is why you see all trans people and their allies as “woke gender ideologues” who are trying to trans all the kids as soon as they’re born and explode gender bombs in major metropolitan areas. It’s also why you refuse to accept the fact that trans people generally want to live their lives without being a political talking point, a hashtag, or a victim of violence simply because of who they are.

You’re the one who thinks you’re the victim of the evils of “woke gender ideology” when most trans people aren’t even trying to make you do anything⁠—including use their preferred pronouns. And if that’s enough to make you fall in league with the kind of people who are actively trying to push trans people out of public life (or into an open grave), you’ve got a problem that no amount of hating, harassing, or celebrating the deaths of trans people will ever fucking fix.

What will all your hate really get you in the end when the future stops coming but time marches on?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:20

I don’t have “TERF allies”. People who call in bomb threats to hospitals should be arrested and imprisoned, but that does not mean that advocates against gender ideology must silence themselves from protesting, any more than Black Lives Matter protests needed to stop because they were sometimes accompanied by rioting, looting, and arson. Only the criminals need to be stopped in both cases.

When not all A are B but all B are A, it usually indicates a systemic problem within A that needs to be addressed there.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

People who call in bomb threats to hospitals should be arrested and imprisoned, but that does not mean that advocates against gender ideology must silence themselves from protesting

The problem with this line of thinking: Threats of violence is the logical and eventual endgame of TERF-led anti-trans “advocacy”. Y’all can’t make trans people to live the way y’all want them to by asking them to, and despite all the attempts so far (and the attempts still to come), y’all can’t use the law to do it either. The only way to make them live that way is through violence. (Same goes for allies of trans people and their pro-trans advocacy⁠.)

You might want to believe you can condemn the actions without condemning the thinking that justifies those actions. Remember what you said about telling people they were wrong? Well, you’re wrong here.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You can politely disagree that men can be women, that the Earth is flat, or that Jesus is Lord. It is only when the targets of the disagreement try to force you to affirm those beliefs that it’s time to abandon politeness for insistence.

You would like to frame disagreement as eliminationism because that lets you pretend that you are protecting the safety of the people you are defending rather than their lies.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You can politely disagree that men can be women, that the Earth is flat, or that Jesus is Lord.

I wonder if you can “politely disagree” that Black people are people, or that queer people deserve to live. I’ve seen enough shit in my lifetime to know there are plenty of people who believe Black people are subhuman filth and queer people deserve to be executed by the state, but I’m wondering if you (or anyone else) can “politely” hold those positions.

It is only when the targets of the disagreement try to force you to affirm those beliefs that it’s time to abandon politeness for insistence.

Try and guess why damn near everyone here is insisting you treat trans people like people instead of things whose existence can be questioned and debated.

Treating people as things, that’s where it starts…

You would like to frame disagreement as eliminationism because that lets you pretend that you are protecting the safety of the people you are defending rather than their lies.

And there you have it, folks⁠—Hyman believes trans people are all liars. It’s the same kind of shit you see with assholes who refer to trans people as “traps”⁠—a slur and a mindset, by the by, that some of those assholes use to justify demeaning, harassing, and even assaulting/killing trans people.

Go back to 8kun, you trans-hating paperclip.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

There’s a purpose in telling people what they need to hear, but don’t want to hear.

Those TERFs you associate with aren’t your friends⁠—they’re allies who will drop you like a bad habit the moment you aren’t in lockstep with their exterminationist rhetoric. How’s that for telling you what you need to hear but don’t want to hear?

Here’s another example: Nobody here is buying your rhetoric, and you’d be far better off going back to your TERF allies and circlejerking yourselves on whatever 8kun is calling itself these days.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

If I just serve to remind you that there are scores of millions of people who do not accept your gender ideology, that’s sufficient for me.

I don’t have “TERF allies” who will “drop me”. I will state my opinions as I wish, and other people may agree with them totally, partially, or not at all, and it will not matter to me.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

If I just serve to remind you that there are scores of millions of people who do not accept your gender ideology, that’s sufficient for me.

That sounds like a threat. But just so you know: Though I die, La Résistance lives on.

I don’t have “TERF allies”

And yet, you lift all your scripted bullshit from (among other sources) shithead TERFs. Curious. 🤔

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

That’s not a threat, just an observation. Here in your echo chamber, is easy for you to overlook that in 2020, 74 million people voted for Trump. Those people have their own massive issues accepting physical reality, but you’re not going to slip “transwomen are men” past them unnoticed.

Since I agree with much of what TERFs have to say, why are you surprised that I would quote them? It they switch to positions that I disagree with, then I’ll disagree. Just because woke ideologues feel obligated to march in lockstep doesn’t mean that I do.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Here in your echo chamber, is easy for you to overlook that in 2020, 74 million people voted for Trump.

No, I’m well aware of that fact. I hate that fact nearly as much as I hate Donald Trump, and you have no earthly fucking idea how deep that hatred runs.

you’re not going to slip “transwomen are men” past them unnoticed

To me, that reads like “74 million people are going to paint a target on your back the size of Trump’s ego if you say that to even one Trump supporter”.

Since I agree with much of what TERFs have to say, why are you surprised that I would quote them?

I’m not. I’m surprised that you’d try to distance yourself from them in even the slightest way when you’ve been lifting their scripted bullshit wholesale for months. I space out my use of copypastas; you’ve legit repeated entire sentences (and even paragraphs!) over and over in the same comments section.

It they switch to positions that I disagree with, then I’ll disagree.

Let’s put that to the test.

Just because woke ideologues feel obligated to march in lockstep doesn’t mean that I do.

You wanna know what’s funny? This is the same kind of shit conservatives say about liberals, even though (in my experience) liberals are more likely to disagree with one another than conservatives on issues of policy. Hell, look at how many liberals/progressives are pissed off at Biden for not going far enough with student loan forgiveness, then compare that to the largely march-in-lockstep approach of conservatives saying Biden shouldn’t have done it in the first place.

For all your bullshit about not marching in lockstep with your TERF allies, you’ve been doing exactly that, to the point where you either can’t or won’t say trans people deserve a place in the public sphere (that isn’t an open grave).

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Doctors and hospitals carrying out legal medical procedures should not be threatened with violence, ever. It is fine to criticize them for performing such procedures if you believe they are harmful, just as liberal ideologues criticized (and criminalized, which is not OK) conversion therapy.

Trans people have, and should have, a place in the public square to live as themselves and to advocate for their positions. It is up to those of us who recognize that gender ideology is false to make sure that gender ideologues do not get to force single-sex spaces to admit people whose bodies disqualify them, or to teach gender ideology as truth in public schools, or to force people to affirm gender ideology implicitly it6 explicitly. That’s how politics and democracy work.

Attempting to silence criticism by claiming that such criticism incites violence should not be allowed to succeed. Rather, people who threaten or commit violence should be arrested and imprisoned.

I am quite aware that I am repeating myself verbatim. I will keep doing so as many times as you post comments willfully refusing to acknowledge that you do not get to force gender ideology onto people who do not accept it.

I am not trying to “distance”myself, or not, from anyone. It’s fine with me if you find my opinions coherent with what TERFs are saying, or of you do not.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Are you talking about Democrats occupying capitols to overturn election results they don’t like?

According to the article you linked, the event in Wisconsin that wasn’t an attempt to overturn an election, it was an attempt to stop a vote on legislation. Still wrong either way, though.

Are you suggesting parents should have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in what is taught in the classroom?

A parent can impress upon their child their beliefs, that is their right. A parent can tell their kid “premarital sex is wrong,” or “God created humans.” However, a parent that seeks to deny their child knowledge of how the reproductive system functions, or that there is more than one idea on how humans came to exist, is just doing that child a disservice.

Does that mean they get “no say whatsoever?” Of course not. But they also should not be able to bury their kid’s head in the sand.

We should allow EVERYTHING from racist CRT

There’s a lot of bad stuff in American history. We need to own up to it, not bury it. It’s not racist to admit our wrongs.

to indoctrinating young children into sexual activity?

Telling a child that homosexuality and gender preference are things that exist is not the same as telling a child they should go have sex right now. Do you have any evidence that there are teachers telling children to go have sex?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

We should not be teaching children lies in public schools. Just as we would object if public schools taught students that some supernatural entity created the universe, we should object to teaching students that people can be a sex different from their bodies. To properly teach these things in schools, the correct approach is to say that some people believe these things and others do not, and as citizens of a free country, people get to make up their own minds about such disputed issues.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I went to private Jewish parochial schools and we were taught all of those things. CRT ideologues want to teach that America and the West are intrinsically evil and that all of the good principles the founders believed in are valueless and meaningless. The notion that people opposed to CRT want to ignore the actual evils in our country’s past is a self-serving lie.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

…we should object to teaching students that people can be a sex different from their bodies.

I’ve never come across that being taught anywhere. Even gender clinics hold that sex is intrinsically tied to the body even where the gender differs, not that a homophobic psychopath like you will recognize that truth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

To properly teach these things in schools, the correct approach is to say that some people believe these things and others do not, and as citizens of a free country, people get to make up their own minds about such disputed issues.

To CORRECTLY teach that topic in schools, the CORRECT approach would be to say that, firstly, biological sex and gender are different things, secondly, gender dysphoria exists and is a disgnosable mental condition in the DSMV, and thirdly, that however people express their gender, THEY ARE STILL HUMANS.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Schizophrenics, anorexics, and paranoias are all humans, but we do not accept their views of reality as correct. The claims of gender ideologues are false. Sex and gender are the same thing, but of course behavior need not be bound by social gender stereotypes. If men went to dress, look, and behave like gender-stereotypical women, that’s fine, but that doesn’t make them women. Similarly, women may choose not to follow women’s social stereotypes, but they are still women, not men or non-binary.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Societies have stereotypes about how “real” men and women behave (in repressive societies, how they must behave). People should be free to behave as they like and not follow stereotypes if they don’t want to, but that doesn’t change what they are. In particular, they cannot declare themselves to be a sex different from their bodies and then force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Behavior is infinitely malleable. Bodies are not.

One consequence of gender ideology is the reinforcement of social gender stereotypes, especially for women. Instead of women declaring that they are free to behave as they wish, women who do not wish to conform to stereotypical behavior are increasingly declaring themselves to be not women, while men who think they’re women about that stereotypical behavior. This is why TERFs are so opposed to gender ideology.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

TERFs also love to use exterminationist rhetoric that seeks to define trans people out of public life by erasing their existence (one way or another). That you side with people who want to destroy an entire demographic of people out of fear or what that demographic’s existence could do (and already is doing) to the strict gender norms that represent some semblance “order” in a world of chaos? That says a lot about you⁠—and none of it is complimentary.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

And none of that response even addresses, much less refutes, the statement that sex and gender aren’t the same thing.

In particular, they cannot declare themselves to be a sex different from their bodies

Nobody is doing that. They’re declaring themselves a different gender from the one that was chosen for them by other people. Sex is genetic and doesn’t change. Gender is psychological and behavioral, socioculturally defined, and has been historically based on sex; but it isn’t the same as sex. Behavior can be influenced by sex, but it isn’t defined or limited by it.

If all you care about is a person’s sex, then a person’s gender identity is utterly irrelevant, and it should be totally fine in your worldview for “men” to wear dresses and makeup, have pink as a favorite color, enjoy romance films, gossip about relationships, and openly display vulnerable emotions, for example, (or, really, exhibit just about any behavior they choose) and you should also vehemently oppose anyone who believes that a “man” can’t do any of those things, even in a “single-sex space” like a locker room.

Do you?

single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them.

Why do single-sex spaces even need to exist at all? If you want to argue potential abuse/assault, that kind of thing happens just as much, if not more, in mixed-sex spaces, so that isn’t justification.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 It should be fine in your worldview...

And it totally is. No one should in any way be obligated to act according to gender stereotype.

Single-sex spaces exist because people have social, cultural, and religious beliefs and taboos that require them. You are welcome to try to convince people that such spaces are unnecessary. But if you try to force people to give them up, you will encounter fierce pushback, as in fact you are now seeing.

Interestingly, changing one’s pronouns sits on the border between personal choice and coercing others. When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves. It’s very situational.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

changing one’s pronouns sits on the border between personal choice and coercing others

It really doesn’t. You can actively and knowingly refuse to use a person’s preferred pronouns when talking to them. (For the record: he/him or they/them for me.) But that choice, like all others, has consequences⁠—and by making the choice to disrespect someone’s identity, you’ve implicitly agreed to accept those consequences, including any negative ones (e.g., being called a transphobic dick). If you can’t accept those consequences, that’s your problem; you can solve it by not being a transphobic dick.

When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves.

Someone asking you to respect their gender identity in the most innocuous way possible isn’t setting forth a massive philosophical quandry meant to tear apart space-time or delving into your psyche to see what makes you tick or whatever other pretentious bullshit you can think of. They’re asking you to not be a transphobic dick. You can “disagree” with someone being trans (i.e., despise the existence of trans people) without acting like an asshole who thinks “hey, my pronouns are [x]” is a double-secret invitation to debate that person’s very existence for hours on end.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

That’s why it’s borderline. There are people who just want to be addressed as what they think they are, and there are people looking to go on the attack against “misgendering” in order to silence and weed out people who do not believe in gender ideology.

You wind up with things like presidential signing statements. “I will address people by their preferred pronouns out of politeness, but that should not be taken to imply that I believe that they are anything but the sex of their bodies.” It’s also a lot like having to use currency and courtrooms with “In God We Trust” defecated on them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

there are people looking to go on the attack against “misgendering” in order to silence and weed out people who do not believe in gender ideology

Gee, it’s almost as if some people don’t like seeing trans people being treated like trash by a bunch of right-wing dingleberries who think “I identify as an attack helicopter” is the height of hilarity~. Imagine that~.

“I will address people by their preferred pronouns out of politeness, but that should not be taken to imply that I believe that they are anything but the sex of their bodies.”

If you have to put out a statement like that to explain why you treat trans people with the most basic level of human dignity and respect, the problem isn’t with trans people or their allies. Grow up, you sweet summer fetus.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

People are the sex of their bodies. If anyone attempts to force people to affirm otherwise, explicitly or implicitly, that needs to be pushed back upon. Use of preferred pronouns lies on the border of politeness and affirmation, so it is the responsibility of people who disagree with gender ideology to make sure that they are not perceived as being affirming, only polite.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

If anyone attempts to force people to affirm otherwise, explicitly or implicitly, that needs to be pushed back upon.

And how hard should that “push” be, hmm? Because I’m sure some of your TERF allies would be fine with a “push” that’s really a “stab” or a “slit” or a “beating”.

You wanted to be on the side of the TERFs, shitbird⁠—now you have to accept what you’re part of, including the violence.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I assume you do not think, though, that all Black Lives Matter protesters are responsible for the rioting, looting, and arson that sometimes accompanied them?

Nope. But the Movement for Black Lives wasn’t (and still isn’t) calling for white people to stop existing as white⁠; it was calling for a national reckoning with systemic racism. TERFs explicitly believe trans people should stop existing as trans⁠—and that the law and society should help stop trans people from existing as trans (or in general) by any means necessary. Apparently, that now includes threatening to bomb children’s hospitals that treat trans children in any way.

You do not get to silence dissent because there are some people who share the same views and choose to act in criminal ways.

You can’t “dissent” with someone’s existence, you fucking fascist.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:9

When someone asks to be addressed by pronouns which are wrong for their bodies, it raises the question whether it is simply polite to do so, or whether the request is an attempt to get everyone to affirm the person’s beliefs about themselves.

So if a person with a penis asks to be addressed by feminine pronouns, you’re going to disrespect her wishes and expose her to the risk of rape on the basis that such pronouns are “wrong for her body” just because she’s intersex? You’re a nasty piece of work, aren’t you?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

A person with a penis is almost always a man, barring weird genetic or developmental sports like Caster Semenya, so addressing him by feminine pronouns can only be a matter of politeness for people who disagree with gender ideology. Using emotional blackmail (“exposed to the risk of rape”) to demand that someone affirm lies by should be met by firm demurral.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

A person with a penis is almost always a man

What if they’re intersex⁠—will you still call them a man, or will you just call them a freak like your TERF allies probably would? If you’re gonna be on the TERF side in this, at least have the courage of your shitheaded convictions to own being a TERF instead of trying to distance yourself from their rhetoric, their hate, and their violence with the weakest possible pushback.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

The best way to fix a slippery slope is to roughen it at the top before anyone slides down. The government (and large private companies too) can bring a lot of pressure to bear without having it be literal state action. The way to deal with that is to make a lot of noise immediately, not to wait until vast amounts of censorship have been outsourced. Twitter, Facebook, and the like should be made very aware, and very nervous, that people are closely watching the choices they make about viewpoint-based censorship.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment. For example, when I dispute gender ideology by saying transwomen are men, the gender ideologues here say that this is hate speech. Their intent is to silence critics, not to tone police them.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment.

Guess that makes you a trans reality-denying idealogue, then.

For example, when I tell lies about gender identity by claiming transwomen are men, the gender realists here state that this is hate speech.

FTFY. YW.

My intent is to silence critics by tone policing them.

FTFY. YW.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

By saying “transwomen are (wo)men,” except without the parentheses.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

(This one, for those unfamiliar: https://xkcd.com/1357/)

Why do you think that comic is relevant to me? It’s almost entirely correct. The only issue I would take is when it says that no one is required to listen to opinions they don’t like. The caveat there is that “not listening” to opinions cannot mean silencing the speakers of those opinions while still proclaiming a belief in free speech. Sometimes people will be in the real or virtual presence of speakers of those opinions, and they will not be able to avoid hearing them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

To ideologues, all disagreement is harassment.

No; they say that all disagreement is bad, but not necessarily harassment specifically.

For example, when I dispute gender ideology by saying transwomen are men, the gender ideologues here say that this is hate speech.

Which is a valid opinion to have. Also, what you are asserting is that, under your definition of men, transwomen are men; that does not refute the assertions of “gender ideologues” who use a different definition of “men”.

Their intent is to silence critics, not to tone police them.

Their intent is to have you not tell them they are lying and/or delusional, which is what you are doing.

Assuming you agree with the view that it’s hate speech, how would you express “transwomen are men” in a non-harassing way?

“I am of the opinion that transwomen are still male—even after treatment—and, therefore, should not be permitted to enter women-only spaces. I also don’t believe that there is a true difference between gender and sex, so I use ‘men’ and ‘male’ as identical terms.”

While this doesn’t make you not a transphobe, this is probably the least offensive way to express your opinions on the matter as you are stating it in terms of your opinions and beliefs. Even if you believe your opinions are factually accurate, this still sends the message you are trying to convey without being too offensive about it.

Now, that said, you seem to assume that, for any issue, there must be a way to disagree with someone without saying something bigoted. However, there are some things that are necessarily bigoted no matter how you try to phrase it. “Black people are inherently inferior to white people,” is going to be racist no matter how you choose to phrase it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

What does it matter to you what someone has between their legs and how they’re defined on a biological level when, 99.999999% of the time, that information has no relevance to you?

It doesn’t. But in the same way as “button” is a whole lot easier to say than “that round thing that gets sown onto clothing to help fasten it together,” don’t you think there should be something similar for “that biological/genetic state, generally associated with XY chromosomal makeup, where a person has high testosterone levels, tendencies toward increased upper body strength, deeper voice, more body hair, and an external reproductive organ?” And you can’t use “male” for that because AC above is using that word as a gender definition for which none of those things is required, and we don’t want people to improperly conflate the two things.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

don’t you think there should be something similar for “that biological/genetic state, generally associated with XY chromosomal makeup, where a person has high testosterone levels, tendencies toward increased upper body strength, deeper voice, more body hair, and an external reproductive organ?”

Maybe. But I don’t need that sort of thing because I’m not a scientist or a doctor, and I don’t spend my days worrying about what reproductive organs everyone else has. I’ll let the people in the labcoats and glasses worry about that shit because I have better things to do than obsess about who has what between their legs and how that might not coincide with their genetic makeup.

Seriously, transphobes need to get a fuckin’ life⁠—and coming from me, that’s saying a lot.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It matters a lot to women in prison who are locked up together with men who call themselves women. It matters to people who have religious beliefs that require separation of men and women in summer contexts. It matters to women who don’t want men on their sports teams.

And it seems to matter a lot to men who demand to be allowed into women’s spaces upon calling themselves women.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 It's all a matter of terminology!

The word woman should probably be restricted to refer to someone that is biologically female.

The word man should probably be restricted to refer to someone that is biologically male.

Even though the French would probably be freaked, it would make sense

  1. to call someone feminine by gender a femme and
  2. to call someone masculine by gender an homme.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It matters a lot to women in prison who are locked up together with men who call themselves women.

I have seen no evidence that transwomen are more likely to rape women in prison than ciswomen are to rape other ciswomen in prison, than transmen are to rape ciswomen in prison, or than cismen are to rape transwomen in prison. But, regardless, I’m more concerned about restrooms and locker rooms than prisons on this front.

It matters to people who have religious beliefs that require separation of men and women in summer contexts.

I’ve already stated why I don’t believe that’s sufficient to overcome the genuine safety concerns of transwomen. Religious freedom has its limitations.

Also, that they do care about it doesn’t mean they should care about it.

It matters to women who don’t want men on their sports teams.

This is a complicated issue, so I won’t discuss it one way or the other. I don’t care enough about sports to motivate myself to educate myself enough on the matter to offer an educated opinion.

And it seems to matter a lot to men who demand to be allowed into women’s spaces upon calling themselves women.

What matters is the social aspect, not the physical aspect.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I think that my three-weird phrasing is equivalent to your longer way of saying it, and having to write paragraphs every time for people who won’t accept that opinion anyway seems like too much work. But the paragraphs do express my opinion correctly.

As for my telling people that they’re delusional, the fact is that people can be delusional. Trump did not win the last election. Anorexics are not fat. When people are delusional about physical reality, they need to expect that people will tell them that, and that physical reality will not change to conform to their beliefs. And fortunately or unfortunately, gender ideology is a delusion, and one that will cause a great deal of harm to people who are going to be fooled into thinking they should transition instead of getting mental health treatment so that they can learn to live comfortably in their own bodies. A significant problem is that these people, often young, have a constellation of mental health issues, including depression, and they’re being told by the internet and activists that transition is the answer.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I think that my three-weird phrasing is equivalent to your longer way of saying it, and having to write paragraphs every time for people who won’t accept that opinion anyway seems like too much work.

Being polite is often more work than being rude. If it’s too much, you can always copy-paste it.

But the paragraphs do express my opinion correctly.

Okay. Glad that I’m not otherwording you, then.

As for my telling people that they’re delusional, the fact is that people can be delusional.

Sure, but a) we’re talking about politeness and tone, and saying, “You’re delusional,” is certainly not polite; and b) you haven’t stated anything actually claimed by real transgender people or their allies that supports a claim that they are being delusional when combined with facts that either we would agree with or that you have alleged.

When people are delusional about physical reality, they need to expect that people will tell them that, and that physical reality will not change to conform to their beliefs.

Transgender people are not making claims about physical reality other than that of the physiology of their brains (which have been demonstrated to either be true or meaningless, not false) and that their physiological/biological/genetic sexes do not fit their gender identity. Neither of these are contrary to physical reality.

Also, again, I was talking about tone and bigotry. Stating that an entire class of people is delusional can still be bigotry even if you genuinely believe it’s true.

It’s also worth noting that, for anorexics, they genuinely believe that their physical bodies are fat. Transwomen do not, as a rule, believe that their physical bodies are female, and transmen do not believe that their physical bodies are male. They often (though not necessarily) feel uncomfortable with their bodies being as they actually are (this is known as gender dysphoria), and they may wish to undergo medical procedures to try to make their bodies conform better (though not necessarily perfectly) with their gender identities (though not all wish to), but they are not perceiving their bodies as being different from how they actually are. There is a massive difference between the two.

And fortunately or unfortunately, gender ideology is a delusion, […]

You have failed to demonstrate this to be true. At best, you have demonstrated that your straw man of transgender people’s position is a delusion, but that in itself is based on your own misunderstanding (deliberate or not) of what these people actually say and not reality.

[…] and one that will cause a great deal of harm to people who are going to be fooled into thinking they should transition instead of getting mental health treatment so that they can learn to live comfortably in their own bodies.

Not only have you not demonstrated this to be true, it is also actually contrary to reality.

A significant problem is that these people, often young, have a constellation of mental health issues, including depression, and they’re being told by the internet and activists that transition is the answer.

No, they’re being told that transitioning is an answer, and that there are multiple ways to transition that don’t all end in the same results. Not all transgender people actually transition or even wish to transition. The fact that you fail to recognize nuance in others’ position doesn’t mean that that nuance is not present there.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The notion that there there are detectable physiological differences such that s man has a female mind or vice versa is false. Gender ideologues would like to claim this, but they would also squeal if anyone suggested that people who claim to be trans should be tested to see if those differences are actually present. Gender ideology is as much a psychological fantasy as was phrenology, facilitated communication, homosexuality as a disease, or recovered memory. Psychology is notorious for “scientific” claims that cannot be replicated or demonstrated.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

The notion that there there are detectable physiological differences such that s man has a female mind or vice versa is false.

False, as the AC points out.

Gender ideologues would like to claim this, but they would also squeal if anyone suggested that people who claim to be trans should be tested to see if those differences are actually present.

Because it is impractical and an invasion of medical privacy to do so all the time. There is also no evidence that there is any real danger of false claims to be transgender that would necessitate such a thing.

Additionally, the differences between masculine and feminine brains are in the averages; there may be some overlap between cismale brains and cisfemale brains, but the transwomen’s brains are (at least generally) far more similar to the average ciswoman’s brain than the average iceman’s brain, and the opposite is true for transmen.

Gender ideology is as much a psychological fantasy as was phrenology, facilitated communication, homosexuality as a disease, or recovered memory.

False. The claims of transgender people are nothing like any of those, and you have offered nothing to support your claims.

Psychology is notorious for “scientific” claims that cannot be replicated or demonstrated.

No moreso than any other scientific field.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It’s helpful in the sense that there are now far more people who believe in the delusion of gender ideology than the number of people who consider themselves to be transgender. Those people are deluded and wrong but do not themselves suffer the mental health issues that lead people to feel alienated from their bodies.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

there are now far more people who believe in the delusion of gender ideology than the number of people who consider themselves to be transgender

I’d bet good money that the number of people you say “believe in the delusion of gender ideology” actually believe less in whatever you say “gender ideology” is this week and more in the good ol’ Golden Rule. You don’t have to be a dick to treat trans people like people instead of things⁠—things to be used as inanimate pawns in an argument that can be tossed into the gutter after you’ve got no more use for them, which is apparently how you think of trans people.

“There’s no grays, only white that’s got grubby. I’m surprised you don’t know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That’s what sin is.”

“It’s a lot more complicated than that—”

“No. It ain’t. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they’re getting worried that they won’t like the truth. People as things, that’s where it starts.”

“Oh, I’m sure there are worse crimes—”

“But they starts with thinking about people as things…”

(Source: Carpe Jugulum by Terry Pratchett; read you some goddamn Discworld books so you can learn to be a better person)

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality. Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are. Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies. The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth. It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality.

You can’t make your transphobia sound any less transphobic by saying “physical reality”. That you care so much about the lives, genitals, and genetic makeup of trans people is almost as disturbing as people who think the genetic makeup of Black people determines their worth as a human being. I almost have to wonder if you have a side interest in phrenology.

Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are.

This is the kind of shit I expect some far-right lawmaker to say right before they say, “And when I’m in power, I will introduce a law that will force people to live under their God-given identity and adhere to their God-given gender roles, praise Jesus.”

Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies.

No, what trans people and their allies insist is that even if you think being transgender is a trend or a choice or a bunch of bullshit, you don’t get to harass and harangue trans people into the closet or the grave so you can feel good about “restoring order to the world” or some other fascist bullshit.

The existence of trans people doesn’t hurt you in any way, yet you remain obsessed with making them live in a way that comforts your bigotry, your biases, and your personal sense of self. Shit, man, I’m a bisexual male who watches a fair bit of porn and even I don’t obsess over people’s genitals the way you do. That you’re basically a step or two removed from calling for laws that govern people’s access to civil rights by their genetics and their gender presentation is your fucking problem. I can’t and won’t help you solve it.

The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth.

Two problems with your assertion.

  1. People can still set up single-sex spaces that are trans-exclusionary, but they should expect to be called TERFs (or worse) for doing so; everything has a price.
  2. Nobody is asking you to “accept[] falsehood as truth”⁠—they’re asking you to stop trying to make trans people’s lives miserable regardless of how you feel about what I’m almost certain you would call “the trans question”.

It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Except it isn’t even close to being the same. Trying to conflate trans people asking not to be harassed into suicide with Christofascists trying to enforce their beliefs and dogma onto everyone else by force (either legal or physical) is bullshit; you know it, I know it, and anyone else with some gotdamn sense knows it.

You’re the one trying to enforce strict gender roles and identities onto other people by forcing them to “tell the truth” and “live by their biology” and all this other transphobic rhetoric you keep spewing. You’re the ideological fascist here, you son of a bitch. Trans people just want to live without being beaten, raped, and killed (possibly not even in that order) by fanatics like you.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

You cannot Golden Rule your way into changing physical reality.

No one is claiming otherwise. They’re saying that the specific aspects of physical reality you’re focused on are none of your business.

Whether someone is a man or a woman is a matter of their physical bodies, not what they believe they are.

Under your definition, yes. However, that is not how we define them or scientifically determined, and that you think that way doesn’t help your case.

Gender ideologues insist that we must affirm people in their beliefs about their gender rather than treat them according to their bodies.

“Should”, not “must”. You can be transphobic if you want.

The problem with that is that treating them according to their beliefs requires trampling on the rights of other people to their single-sex spaces, […]

Not really. They don’t own those single-sex spaces. Additionally, not all cisgender people agree on whether they are single-sex spaces or single-gender spaces, and the main reason for asking for the latter is a matter of safety, not mere preference.

[…] and more broadly, to accepting falsehood as truth.

  1. No it doesn’t.
  2. That’s not infringing on their rights.

It is exactly the same as forcing people to affirm that Jesus is Lord.

Not at all. It’s more like recognizing that transgender people exist and face certain hardships that require different treatment, or simply minding your own business.

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anon says:

History always repeats itself.

“Except they weren’t asking them to shut down the accounts. They were asking why the companies didn’t consider Berenson to have violated its terms. Which is a legitimate question.”

All I could think of at this point in the article is “Will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest?”

hcunn (profile) says:

Berenson fooled me (sort of)

I read Berenson’s WSJ piece and got the impression he was suspended for arguing that Covid-19 originated in Wuhan and the PRC was not being honest about it. This Techdirt piece stirred me to look him up on Wikipedia, and I find he is an anti-vaxxer. [Gong!]

(2) To be another Galileo, it is not enough to be persecuted. You also have to be right.

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Koby (profile) says:

Secret Questions Are Coercion

Again, literally all that shows is the White House asking about it. And, as Berenson’s buddy, Tucker Carlson, let’s us know all the time, “what’s wrong with just asking questions?” Again, none of this turns Twitter into a state actor.

You’re supposed to ask the question out in the open. If you use secret back channels to get someone banned, then that’s State Action. Questions asked under the cover of darkness are just government threats.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Zero tolerance

I think any government employee (except judges that are issuing rulings) that asks any company, publicly or privately, to censor or otherwise restrict the speech, should be struck off by default. Fired. Zero tolerance. The content of speech irrelevant. It must not be tolerated as a function of government, it is the gateway to corruption.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

And then they refuse to understand (that is to say, with an agenda) that to which they wish to apply the rules they don’t or won’t correctly understand.

For example, let’s frame the subject under discussion as, “Gov asked/demanded that asshat B. be banned” rather than, “Since you’re moderating accounts doing X, why aren’t relevabt posts at very popular B. account moderated at all”.

While it is still a case of geez get your nose out, Gov, it isn’t what some wish to present it as to generate interest/outrage in something of which it is hardly worthy. Everybody, quick, race to the lowest common denominator of wrong, but don’t stop there.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Nothing Complex Either about either Common Carriage or State Action Doctrine!

At Bell Labs an MTS (Member of Technical Staff), who worked with the legal staff, had to take an internal course in common carriage and in state action doctrine.

The concepts are not complex and have their origins in equity.

Please take a look at the original complaint from Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc..

Original Complaint

  1. Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc.., 3:22-cv-02482-CRB (N.D. Cal. July 19, 2021).
  2. Exhibit A.
  3. Exhibit B.
  4. Exhibit C.
  5. Exhibit D.

A Different Approach to Arguing State Action Doctrine

I would have written the Original Complaint differently. The Twiqbal Plausibility Requirement can be met without including an exhibit, but I understand why Counsel wrote the complaint as it was written.

I would have argued state action doctrine somewhat differently.

From Rogalinski v. Meta Platforms, Inc., 3:22-cv-02482-CRB (N.D. Cal. Aug. 9, 2022).

The nexus test “asks ‘whether there is a sufficiently close nexus between the State and the challenged action of the regulated entity so the action of the latter may be fairly treated as that of the state itself.'” Gorenc v. Salt River Project Agr. Imp. & Power Dist., 869 F.2d 503, 506 (9th Cir. 1989) (citing Jackson v. Metropolitan Edison Co., 419 U.S. 345, 351 (1974)); see also Villegas v. Gilroy Garlic Festival Ass’n, 541 F.3d 950, 955 (9th Cir. 2008) (listing factors to consider, including whether the funds of the organization come from the state and whether state officials dominate its decision-making).

Similarly, the joint action test asks “whether the state has ‘so far insinuated itself into a position of interdependence with [the private entity] that it must be recognized as a joint participant in the challenged activity.” Gorenc, 869 F.2d at 507 (quoting Burton v. Wilmington Parking Auth., 365 U.S. 715, 725 (1961)). “[A] bare allegation of such joint action will not overcome a motion to dismiss.” DeGrassi v. City of Glendora, 207 F.3d 636, 647 (9th Cir. 2000). The Supreme Court has explained:

[A] State normally can be held responsible for a private decision only when it has exercised coercive power or has provided such significant encouragement, either overt or covert, that the choice must in law be deemed to be that of the State. Mere approval of or acquiescence in the initiatives of a private party is not sufficient to justify holding the State responsible for those initiatives. Blum v. Yaretsky, 457 U.S. 991, 1004-05 (1982).

And this circuit requires “substantial cooperation” or that the private entity and government’s actions be “inextricably intertwined.” Brunette v. Humane Society of Ventura Cnty., 294 F.3d 1205, 1211 (9th Cir. 2002). Although “[a] conspiracy between the State and a private party to violate constitutional rights may also satisfy the joint action test,” id., the private and government actors must have actually agreed to “violate constitutional rights,” Fonda v. Gray, 707 F.2d 435, 438 (9th Cir. 1983).

In Burton the Eagle Coffee Shoppe, Inc. was “inextricably intertwined” with Delaware State because the coffee shop was within a structure owned by the Wilmington Parking Authority. The coffee shop did not even have an entrance into the parking garage. Meta/Facebook service is wholly within the structure of the Internet. The Meta/Facebook service is message common carriage of digital personal literary property. The Internet is alleged to have completed its privatization in 2016, but the US government continues to fund the Internet and to maintain substantial control over the Internet pervasively throughout the US Internet substructure as any analysis of the Internet shows. Meta almost always receives or delivers digital personal literary property through the use of a link or other device,

  1. which the US government has either funded or
  2. over which the US government has substantial control.

The US government and Meta are “inextricably intertwined” in the service, which Meta offers — far more than Delaware and Eagle Coffee Shoppe ever were in vending coffee.

Summary

The real issue is the following.

Eric Goldman and his ilk want:

  1. want to cast inequitable discrimination in concrete,
  2. oppose free speech, and
  3. are working to undermine the First Amendment.

To be fair, Eric Gold may simply be misguided because he does not understand how Internet technology works.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Meta/Facebook service is wholly within the structure of the Internet.

the US government continues to fund the Internet and to maintain substantial control over the Internet pervasively throughout the US Internet substructure as any analysis of the Internet shows.

The US government and Meta are “inextricably intertwined” in the service, which Meta offers

As pointed out elsewhere, by this logic, every US-based website on the Internet is a state actor. The argument is ridiculous.

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ThorsProvoni (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Straw Man Argument from a White Racist or from a Genocide-Supporter

Here is the state action requirement that the Amended Class Action Complaint will fulfill.

The state action requirement refers to the requirement that in order for a plaintiff to have standing to sue over a law being violated, the plaintiff must demonstrate that the government (local, state, or federal), was responsible for the violation, rather than a private actor.

  • If a private actor sets up a public forum in a structure,
  1. which the US federal government funds and
  2. over which the government has substantial influence, and
  • if the private actor makes use of government-funded equipment in this structure,

the government becomes responsible for abridging freedom of speech.

If a private actor does not wish to become a state actor, he has two choices:

  1. he doesn’t run his website as a public forum or
  2. he builds his own Internet,
  • which the government does not fund and
  • over which the government has no influence.

Within two year white racists, who support discrimination by a social medium platform in common carriage, civil rights, and public accommodation when every racist social is bankrupted for its violations.

Hurley v. Irish-American Gay, Lesbian Bisexual Group, 515 U.S. 557, 115 S. Ct. 2338 (1995) does not apply because in the case of a parade, a parade is not a forum for expression but is expression itself.

No one confuses an individual tweet, post, or comment on a social medium platform to be the expression of the social medium platform as one might have confused expression of GLIB with a message that the South Boston Allied War Veterans Council intended to send to the public.

No one ever considered content, which a private actor put into the AT&T Mass Announcement System, to be the expression of AT&T unless AT&T put the content into the AT&T Mass Announcement System even though AT&T owned every piece of its circuit-switched network.

Hurley

  1. supports the contention that alleges a social medium platform is a state actor and
  2. aids the effort to nail every racist discriminatory social medium platform.

I did not come up with that argument. I am channeling my deceased lawyer. I wish he were here to make the argument himself.