Cop Official Complains Cops Are Unfairly Hated, Refuses To Recognize Law Enforcement’s Lack Of Accountability

from the can't-see-the-forest-for-the-line-of-blue-trees dept

This op-ed for Police1, written by longtime law enforcement officer/official Booker Hodges (currently the chief of the Bloomington, MN police department), may have its heart partially in the right place but it’s wrong in all the wrong places.

Entitled “Why we need to talk about the blueprint for hate,” the op-ed belatedly calls for more community-oriented policing. That’s a good thing but it’s buried under a self-serving sermon to the converted that says the real problem here is the public’s unwillingness to treat cops as minor deities among mere men.

There’s a flaw in this argument. And it’s one legislators and police officials have used to agitate for “blue lives matter” laws. The logical flaw is this: people are not subject to any form of legally recognizable “hate” simply because of where they work.

Over the past few years, we have had to deal with protecting peaceful protesters from rioters and criminals who sought to take down our democracy, even when some of those peaceful protesters wanted to abolish our profession. We have been placed in the middle of so many conflicts that it has almost become commonplace to use our profession as the whipping board, meaning even when we do the right thing, we do the wrong thing! At the center of the majority of these conflicts is hate.

Throughout human history, many conflicts have been centered around hate and we as a species have perfected what I call the “blueprint for hate.” The blueprint for hate looks like this: You categorize a group of people by their occupation, race, gender, religion, political beliefs, or you fill in the blank as being “them and they.” Once these people are categorized as “them and they,” you lump them all together and they are no longer respected or viewed as individual humans but as a monotheistic group.

Next, you highlight the most extreme, completely unrepresentative negative behavior or act made by individuals of the “them and they” as normal and representative of all members of the group. Then you continually highlight the unrepresentative behavior so those who are not in the “them and they” group develop an unfavorable opinion of those who are in the group.

After this is done you start to dehumanize those in the “them and they” group so it becomes acceptable to those who are outside the group to harm and disparage those who are “them and they.”

The first paragraph is a long-term cop whining about having to respect the rights of people who don’t respect cops. Too bad. That’s the deal here in the United States. And you’ve had decades to get used to it. If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.

The rest of it is the co-opting of history in hopes of making cops appear to be a group worthy of federal protection. I don’t believe Chief Hodges is actually advocating for hate speech law expansions but his rhetoric (especially the part where he places “occupation” ahead of legally recognized elements like race, gender, and religion) tracks closely with that deployed by people who believe cops are a historically marginalized group deserving of additional legal protection from their critics.

Piled on top of all this is an undeniable lack of self-awareness. The law enforcement “community” has, for years, encouraged an “us vs. them” mentality — something enforced by its insistence that only cops are allowed to have opinions on cops and the persistence of the unofficial “thin blue line” that not only separates them from the worst of us (order vs. chaos) but from everyone who relies on them to do the job they’re paid to do while expecting a bare minimum of respect for their rights from law enforcement officers.

See also, this incredible meme (h/t @Krubuntu):

But this op-ed is at its most tone deaf when it appeals to the nonexistent authority of the “bad apple” theory of policing: the effort to distance law enforcement (the occupation) from the worst of its ranks by suggesting problematic officers are over-represented by critics (the few “bad apples”) rather than being the most visible symptoms of an underlying disease.

Over the past few years, out of literally hundreds of millions of interactions with our neighbors, the most extreme, unrepresentative behaviors by a few of those in our profession have been continually highlighted and portrayed as the norm.

What’s ignored here is what causes these “extreme, unrepresentative behaviors” to rise to the surface where they’re immediately noticeable. Cops who end up splashed all over the front pages aren’t dealing with “unfair” discussions of their first screw-up. Many have been sued multiple times and/or have been the subject of multiple complaints. Some have even been fired but been given their jobs back (or hired by other law enforcement agencies).

Cops don’t begin their careers with egregious rights violations. They start small and see what they can get away with. Once it becomes obvious the repercussions of their actions will be minimal, if not completely nonexistent, their violations become bigger and bolder. Sooner or later, they do something too big to ignore. And that’s when law enforcement officials, like the one writing here, say things like what’s said above in an effort to downplay the problematic environment that produced this supposed outlier as well as to draw attention away from the accountability they’ve refused to impose on the officers they lead.

Even when accountability is imposed — often via civil rights lawsuits, officers are shielded by multiple forms of immunity. If a lawsuit manages to bypass immunity arguments, officers are almost always indemnified by the localities that employ them. The public gets nothing from this process. It pays to defend officers against allegations and pays again when juries find in favor of the person suing or cities decide to settle.

Just because most cops don’t end up making headlines does not mean the law enforcement community is healthy. Cops who behave badly are protected by officers who choose not to violate rights. That doesn’t make their defenders good cops. It just makes them slightly less awful than those who consider misconduct to be an essential part of police work.

And Chief Hodges is wrong about this, too: it isn’t hate cops are feeling. It’s anger. The fact that police officials can’t tell the two apart is no less problematic than the broken cop culture they still somehow feel obliged to defend.

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Comments on “Cop Official Complains Cops Are Unfairly Hated, Refuses To Recognize Law Enforcement’s Lack Of Accountability”

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Chris Brand says:

Outliers?

His argument would be a lot stronger if the reaction of police unions, police chiefs, etc to those “bad apples” was to loudly say “this is not acceptable”, fire them, make sure they never work in law enforcement again, and in many cases prosecute them for their crimes.

Instead they show us which side of that “thin blue line” they consider those people to be on. Maybe if you stop aligning yourselves with the “bad apples”, you’ll have better luck convincing others not to assume they’re representative of the entire profession.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

A good cop who covers for a bad cop is not a good cop

Over the past few years, out of literally hundreds of millions of interactions with our neighbors, the most extreme, unrepresentative behaviors by a few of those in our profession have been continually highlighted and portrayed as the norm.

If you’ve got a group of 100 people, 1 of which is violent and shows utter contempt for everyone around them, 1 of which loudly objects and condemns the violent person and 98 that always seem to have something in their eye and a ringing in their ear any time the violent one does anything you do not get to complain when people outside the group lump the 98 in with the violent 1 even if they personally aren’t bouncing heads off the pavement or perforating bodies with bullets.

If US police held their own accountable, if any time a cop crossed the line it was consistently and loudly condemned by the other police and their unions and made clear that the police did not have their back because they cared more about protecting the public from corrupt cops than protecting corrupt cops from accountability, then the idea that the public was being unfair for labeling the police in general as corrupt and/or violent due to ‘a few bad apples’ might hold some weight.

As it stands though they’ve made clear by word and deed that they value protecting their own over protecting the rights and lives of the public, and therefore have no-one to blame but themselves for the public’s poor perception of them.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

It’s not just that – the police complain all the time when people assume the worst of them by looking at their biggest offenders, saying that it’s unfair. But what happens when they decide how their patrols, their practices when apprehending suspects, or their predictive policing plans? It’s going to depend on their experience, read biases, on what demographics – read: races and social classes – are likeliest to offend. Which means their decisions are mostly, if not entirely, shaped by their biases on them expecting the worst case scenario of every encounter. Someone reaching for their waist must be reaching for a gun, so riddle him with bullets. Someone unable to cope with multiple conflicting instructions on whether to freeze or raise their hands in the air must be a violent anarchist, so pump a few rounds in them just to make sure. Someone reaching for her glove box to show a driving license as she’s asked must be actually going for a pistol, so tase the shit out of her with your gun, saying afterwards that you swear you meant to go for your taser.

Cops have always enjoyed a lack of accountability as if it’s their God-given right. Which is why they protested like mad when body cameras were going to be a thing, and they had to be dragged into it kicking and screaming until they realized that footage could help prove their innocence in cases of actual suspect malingering, while they still had the button on the cameras’ switches to help shape a narrative. “Oops, I guess all our cameras decided to turn off at the same time for some strange reason!” They’ve sold everyone the trite claim of “If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear” for decades, and now they’re angry that they have to lie in the bed they shat in.

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davec (profile) says:

Whatever you plan to replace the police with, you better hurry and get it working.

You are so angry with the police that when you see them abused, assaulted, taunted, threaten, injured and killed you have absolutely no compassion for them or their families.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

You call other people heroes yet if a police officer were to do the same thing, you would demand he be fired. Without saying a word, an 80 year old man with a shotgun working at a liquor store shot a would-be robber carrying an AR-15. He is rightfully considered a hero, but if a cop had done that you would be asking “why didn’t he deescalate?” “Just another trigger happy cop”. “I hope the kid’s parents sue the shit out of him”. “He should be fired”.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

An MMA fighter in New York caught a man assaulting other people, and he heroically thru him on the ground and held him there till the police arrived. In the process, he sat on the guy’s chest. Had a police officer done that, you would be demanding they be fired. If the person was on fentanyl and died, you would demand the officer spend the rest of his life in jail.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

A cop was beaten and choked by a kid and the DA released the kid.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

It isn’t working for them and it won’t work for anybody else. Nobody in this forum. Not my children. Not your children. They are leaving and as they leave, the pressure on those that remain becomes more and more until it is unbearable and they too will leave.

Hope you have a plan.

Scary Devil Monastery (profile) says:

Re:

“You are so angry with the police that when you see them abused, assaulted, taunted, threaten, injured and killed you have absolutely no compassion for them or their families.”

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has a police force which works better than yours, davec.

There are no excuses. Not any longer. Those tasked to enforce the monopoly on violence can not be allowed to continue as they have.

WHY would americans have any compassion to what happens to just another gang closing ranks? EVERY bad cop – every last one – once they finally go down turn out to have had years worth of flagrant abuse of their position in their baggage. And every last one of them was known by their colleagues in the force for what they were.

You’re right. There’s no longer any compassion for the people who have stood by and had the backs of those upholding “Code blue”.

AS for the plan – it’s simple enough. Do like every other nation has done. Embrace the principles of peelian policing. Vet every candidate for a position where they bear arms upholding the monopoly on violence.

Here’s a plan – make like Sweden; Every police candidate undergoes scrutiny over the 2 year training they take on in order to become a police officer. With a bachelor’s degree of “being a cop” they’ll know how the law operates and their role in enforcing it.

And redesign that role to where it actually has the duty obligation of protecting and serving.

Uvalde taught us everything we ever needed to know of how “useful” US law enforcement is. 368 cops are too chickenshit scared to move in on a lone assailant gunning down children in a school.

And yet here you are, still defending them. For what purpose, davec? So they can keep being the harm they’ve proven to be thus far?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD has a police force which works better than yours, davec.

Yes I know. We are just another Banana Republic with more guns than people. We can’t protect our borders or our people. We allow bad people to walk free and throw good people like Kim Potter in jail.

Here’s a plan – make like Sweden; Every police candidate undergoes scrutiny over the 2 year training they take on in order to become a police officer. With a bachelor’s degree of “being a cop” they’ll know how the law operates and their role in enforcing it.

Both my daughter and daughter in law have master’s degrees (both in law enforcement). My son (who has an AA) went to the academy for 10 months, then spent 3 years working in the jails. Following that, he spent a year with a training officer on patrol. He had been on patrol for over 25 years and was always required to take new training. He did that until “it wasn’t working” for him and he transferred from patrol. As he told me “I am so done”!

Here’s a plan. No open air drug markets. Don’t subsidize people’s criminal activity by allowing them to steal up to $950 a day. Don’t release violent people back on the streets before the cops can even finish the arrest paperwork.

But hey, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

And yet here you are, still defending them. For what purpose, davec? So they can keep being the harm they’ve proven to be thus far?

Policing has changed so much in the last 5 years that the job has become impossible. You could bring over every cop from Europe and none would stay under these conditions. This country is unraveling with neither the people on the Right nor the people on the Left trusting in the fairness of our system. What happens when the cops don’t trust the fairness of the system?

But hey, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:

No open air drug markets.

I’ve never seen any such thing and I live in a state where marijuana possession is legal.

Don’t subsidize people’s criminal activity by allowing them to steal up to $950 a day.

Arguing for defunding the police, I see. Interesting.

Don’t release violent people back on the streets before the cops can even finish the arrest paperwork.

I’ve never known this to happen in all my years as a public defender.

BTW, if Kim Potter’s your idea of a “good person”, no wonder there are so many murderers in a police uniform.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No open air drug markets.

I’ve never seen any such thing and I live in a state where marijuana possession is legal.

Now you have

Viral video of kids’ grim encounter highlights San Francisco’s drug problem – CBS San Francisco (cbsnews.com)
https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/viral-video-of-kids-grim-encounter-highlights-san-franciscos-drug-problem/

Don’t subsidize people’s criminal activity by allowing them to steal up to $950 a day.

Arguing for defunding the police, I see. Interesting.

While originally well intended the main benefactors have been organized crime and drug dealers.

California Property Crime Surge Is Unintended Consequence of Proposition 47: Independent Institute
https://www.independent.org/publications/article.asp?id=9417&gclid=CjwKCAjw9NeXBhAMEiwAbaY4lotDoNcy5nMVkfgHLjWfBqLz3QagFvxZiohN_z0He–AMx9UlPleQxoCKdcQAvD_BwE

Don’t release violent people back on the streets before the cops can even finish the arrest paperwork.

I’ve never known this to happen in all my years as a public defender

Teen freed despite video of him attacking cops — why NYC crime is out of control (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/07/26/teen-freed-despite-video-of-him-attacking-cops-why-nyc-crime-is-out-of-control/

BTW, if Kim Potter’s your idea of a “good person”, no wonder there are so many murderers in a police uniform.

If you are a public defender, then you have defended a lot worse people than Kim Potter. Do you think the sole purpose of the law is to seek retribution? Retribution is the only reason given by the judge for incarcerating Officer Potter.

Why a Judge Sentenced Kim Potter to 2 Years for Daunte Wright’s Killing (people.com)
https://people.com/crime/behind-a-minn-judges-decision-to-sentence-kim-potter-to-2-years-in-prison-for-killing-daunte-wright/

“One mistake from prison and one bullet from death.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

BTW, if Kim Potter’s your idea of a “good person”, no wonder there are so many murderers in a police uniform.

Kim Potter is davec’s go-to example of a cop with an actually outstanding career record who made an incredibly fatal mistake. Where davec takes umbrage is the fact that Potter’s exemplary record was apparently not enough to merit leniency in her sentencing, and the fact that the judge sentenced her based on “retribution” guidelines due to the fact that someone died. (davec also likes to add that the judge was in tears when she read out the sentence, but whether this actually happened or is davec’s own fanciful imagination is unclear, and irrelevant.)

But it’s important to note that under davec’s perspective, both Kim Potter and Derek Chauvin deserve the same leniency. You only need to read his comment history to see who he’s angry at. Not Chauvin, but the people angry at Chauvin.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Kim Potter is davec’s go-to example of a cop with an actually outstanding career record who made an incredibly fatal mistake. Where davec takes umbrage is the fact that Potter’s exemplary record was apparently not enough to merit leniency in her sentencing, and the fact that the judge sentenced her based on “retribution” guidelines due to the fact that someone died. (davec also likes to add that the judge was in tears when she read out the sentence, but whether this actually happened or is davec’s own fanciful imagination is unclear, and irrelevant.)

Do you guys ever look outside your echo chamber to verify things on your own?

MN v. Kim Potter Trial – Death of Daunte Wright – Judge Regina Chu Sentences Kim Potter – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxcOmPF9X6k

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Congratulations, you finally posted a video citation to that. I don’t know why you insist on keeping these to yourself until you finally post them after constant needling, but if it gives you another reason to bitch about everyone who doesn’t worship at the altar of cop authority the way you do, good for you.

It still doesn’t change the fact that your anger over the usage of retribution in the legal sense is nothing more than semantics. People fuck up, people get punished.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Don’t release violent people back on the streets before the cops can even finish the arrest paperwork.

How about “don’t arrest people for being black” for starters?

Even in Singapore, I’ve not seen this happen, unless they’re either ambassadors or rich.

And Singapore DRAFTS some of their police officers. Not a joke.

Cattress (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You don’t like when your family is unfairly maligned with other bad officers, yet you continue to trot them out as representative examples of police.
They each have roughly 30 years each in training and experience, great. They actually completed their “mandatory” training like they were supposed to. Most of those chicken shit cops in Uvalde, the ones accusing parents desperate to save their kids of being the reason they weren’t engaging the actual killer, most of those fuckers never bothered to complete their active shooter training. Only the 8 shitbags under captain coward had completed that “mandatory” training.
Cops don’t want to learn de-escalation tactics, just look at pig president of the union in MN. Canzannaro, or something- can’t remember name but it was MN, and in response to the city deciding they didn’t want the cops getting more warrior training, since cops are not in fact warriors, he raised the money through the union and sent cops to more killing with impunity training classes.
Detectives usually have educational requirements in addition to whatever police academies teach (and I strongly suspect those so-called academies are a major source of the problems, followed by shitty senior and training officers just like Potter and Chauvin). But most departments have fairly low standards for education and intelligence of their beat cops. They intentionally select people who cannot think critically & independently, who will just do what they are told. People who won’t do anything when they see a tyrant bully beating up a clearly confused and terrified, tiny little old lady, then revel with the other goons about the sound of her arm breaking. Or cops who are so utterly stupid that they use their tasers on folks suffering a diabetic attack instead of rendering aid, or a teenage girl having an epileptic seizure at a concert (then tasering her mother later on when she arrives and is desperately trying to get to her child, causing her to piss her pants in public). Shit, I had an “educated” detective tell me that narcolepsy isn’t real & therefore I didn’t actually need my prescribed medication, I was just manipulating my doctor so I could get high & rich. How many of these “trained” bullies ignored their training and continued to slowly asphyxiate people saying they couldn’t breathe to death? Because it’s a shit ton more than just the Floyd & Garner. Or how about just properly securing people during transport with a fucking seatbelt like they are “trained” to do, instead of allowing them fall out of a moving patrol car and cracking their skull open on the highway (leaving twin 3 year olds motherless! She was having a schizophrenic episode so not a criminal; scumbags lied & said 5’2 110lbs hand cuffed woman kicked the car door open to escape. Their negligence killed a young mother and they lie egregiously, blaming her! She’s dead, toddlers lost their mommy, parents are burying a 26 year old daughter, but those fuckers are scared they might get a slap on the wrist, or at worst, fired, so they just make up story where she brought that on herself. Kinda like with Breonna Taylor, cops lying about a black woman to make it seem like she brought it on herself. Cops too lazy to actually do their job, but get off on busting down doors and terrorizing or murdering whoever is on the other side of the door just because they can, because they love that rush!
And speaking of liars covering up their brutal murder, Ronald Greene in LA; cops told his family he died in the accident after a high speed chase, when they beat, dragged and cuffed him laying face down while he begged for his life, told them he was scared.
And you sit here bitching about drug dealing and petty theft are the real problems in society. How we aren’t locking up enough people when we outpace even the most brutal regimes; that they are being treated as innocent until proven guilty like the constitution says. And really, I’m supposed to believe suspects are seeing a judge and getting released before cops can finish the paperwork? I mean, they use boilerplate language without any push back from the courts any other time, have they suddenly taken to writing dissertations suddenly? Was there a hiring spree of judges and jailors that has made an arrest so speedy to process? Their reports don’t even have to be accurate, my report had a huge chunk from an entirely different case for someone else pasted in the middle. Could the problem be that arrests are being made on a quantity over quality basis? Could cops be just grabbing lots of low hanging fruit like drug dealing rather than focusing on solving murder, rape? I know lots of places are going back to tossing rape kits in closets, claiming they can’t afford to process them, or litany of other bullshit excuses. Considering how many cops take advantage of their position to sexually abuse women & children in both their public jobs and private lives, discouraging victims from coming forward or pursuing charges is just the thin blue line’s way of looking out for their fellow predators and keeping their identity secret.
Has it ever occurred to you that version of things that your son/ daughter in law tell you is one that has benn whitewashed (blue washed?) Of the dirty details. Maybe they feel ashamed that they haven’t stepped up to protect the public? Or that they have become so jaded that they have become entrenched in the mindset of us vs them, and they have lost their sense of compassion? Cops have disproportionately high rates of domestic violence, most of which is with impunity. Think about that sack of shit in NY who intimidated the CPS workers and manipulated a judge to give hime sole custody, then beat and tortured his autistic son to death. Lied about his ex so no one would take her seriously. As far as I’m concerned every single cop in that precinct are accessories to that little boys murder because they towed that line. No one wants to think of their own kin as being capable of evil, but some of them are. Sociopaths do not spawn out of thin air, & they are exceptionally capable of fooling everyone around them. Frankly, nobody should be more outraged by the handful of incidents I’ve mentioned than “good” cops. They are the ones that should be holding their colleagues to a higher standard, not the ones enabling their vile criminality.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

An armed populace is the best way to handle out of control police.

I hope the police left have a plan for dealing with that. And if not, there’s always McDonalds.

When the police are gone, you will definitely get an armed populace with fewer laws and restrictions than Afghanistan. I wonder if McDonalds will subsidize their employees’ ammunition requirements.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

When the police are gone, there’ll be the National Guard for dealing with real crimes, not an autistic teenager playing with a toy truck.

I’m sure you are looking forward to weekend warriors with machine guns and martial law. After all we are just another banana republic. Unfortunately, at some point you may get that and it may linger.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:3

A national guard that fucks up actually have to face the consequences for his or her actions, a cop who fucks up rarely face any consequences at all.

If the UCMJ suddenly where extended to the police, a majority of them would suddenly end up in prison.

And in regards of your comment about being a banana republic, a big part of the world have started to thinking that because of people like you who routinely defend the indefensible.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

A case where even the courts admitted “holy shit that’s not how you do things” despite acquitting the Guardsmen involved due to lack of evidence, where FURTHER civil suits managed to prove at least 5 of the Guardsmen guilty, led to the National Guard ACTUALLY reviewing and changing how they operate in the face of pritests and riots, and, more importantly, AT LEAST THE GUARD GOT WRUNG THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS?

That’s a shit ton more responsibility the National Guard took than MOST COPS and even that fucking shitbag Nixon himself. Whose response was the shittiest imaginable.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

A case where even the courts admitted “holy shit that’s not how you do things” despite acquitting the Guardsmen involved due to lack of evidence, where FURTHER civil suits managed to prove at least 5 of the Guardsmen guilty, led to the National Guard ACTUALLY reviewing and changing how they operate in the face of pritests and riots, and, more importantly, AT LEAST THE GUARD GOT WRUNG THROUGH THE LEGAL PROCESS?
That’s a shit ton more responsibility the National Guard took than MOST COPS and even that fucking shitbag Nixon himself. Whose response was the shittiest imaginable.

Join the National Guard it is a fine organization. I’m sure you will enjoy boot camp but if you don’t UCMJ Article 85 will ensure you stay.

BTW what’s a pritests?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Ah, I see, just like Trump, you probably hate soldiering.

I am hardly surprised, brownshirt. You can’t handle taking responsibility, just like the gang in blue you so love to defend.

And don’t blindly quote laws you don’t know or care about, just because you are ideologically opposed to the group. It sets a bad precedent, but then again, you already argue in bad faith. I should expect no less from someone who wants us all dead.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

It was not unexpected that you’d pull out a strawman in bad faith.

It was not unexpected that someone here would say something that stupid.

I was in the Navy. In the event of war, a Boomer (nuclear powered missile carrying sub) has orders to launch all of it’s missiles. That one sub will kill more people in 30 minutes than all the police in the world have in the history of the world and they practice doing it all the time.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Key word being “practice”. You know, with dummy missiles? Whereas the police act like they don’t get enough training, and so they practice Control & Restraint training on suspects as well as using them for target practice when they’ve got their hands up.

Dummy missiles? It’s hard to figure out if you are stoned, stupid or just an idiot.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

It’s telling that you pick on something just because it’s never previously crossed your radar, but refuse to engage with the other valid points raised. Typical of the trollish behavior I’ve seen on other websites.

You don’t want engagement, you want agreement. That is why you participate in this echo chamber. Seems you want to dehumanize cops and when I mention they have families and vulnerabilities of normal human beings it irritates you. This includes most of posters in this forum. When I post a differing viewpoint, it gets hidden.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

You don’t want engagement, you want agreement. That is why you treat this site like it should be an echo chamber. Seems you want to dehumanize the victims of cops, and when I mention they have 4th Amendment rights too, it irritates you. There were three points in my post, just as Attorney pointed out, and you chose to engage with only the least of them, then attack Attorney with whataboutism when they pointed out that bad faith “engagement”.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

You don’t want engagement, you want agreement. That is why you treat this site like it should be an echo chamber. Seems you want to dehumanize the victims of cops, and when I mention they have 4th Amendment rights too, it irritates you. There were three points in my post, just as Attorney pointed out, and you chose to engage with only the least of them, then attack Attorney with whataboutism when they pointed out that bad faith “engagement”.

There are so many Anonymous Cowards in here I’m not sure what post you are referring to.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

You really need to let that whole “boo hoo I’m a Vietnam War veteran” thing go. What happened to you was terrible. On that much I will agree.

That comment is amazing. There is a direct correlation between how Vietnam vets were demonized and the way cops today are being demonized and I fear the result will be the same. The ones that spat on us and called us “baby killers” said they were doing it because they hated war. We hated war too. “The only thing worse than winning a war is losing a war”. We warned them what would happen if we lost. After Saigon fell, the world started seeing 100s of thousands of “Boat People” risking their lives to flee their homes and those that had so boisterously opposed the war were suddenly tongue-tied. “Oooooh…” “We thought ah …” “Yeah but …”. Then came the “Killing Fields” of Cambodia with nearly 2 million dead and those boisterous voices became silent.

It wasn’t until 30 years after I got out that I first heard, “Thank you for your service”. It came from a sweet young girl barely in her 20s and for a split second I wanted to punch her and scream, “Why didn’t you listen!”

I’m here to warn you what happens if we lose.

Taking out your anger on people who think Derek Chauvin fucked up will not make it better.

My pushback has always been, not all cops are Chauvin and you are fucking up if you think they are.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

There is a direct correlation between how Vietnam vets were demonized and the way cops today are being demonized and I fear the result will be the same

Plenty of people get demonized. Including the racial and sexual minorities who you regularly mock, belittle, and demean in your posts. It’s like you don’t even remember your own post history – or intentionally overlook your bigoted moments to push your “woe is me, people don’t like me when I’m an asshole” narrative.

We warned them what would happen if we lost

Realistically, what do you think “they” could have contributed? What do you think they could have done to swing the needle, beyond not making you feel bad about yourself?

for a split second I wanted to punch her and scream, “Why didn’t you listen!”

Maybe you should have, if to cement the idea that you’re an embittered curmudgeon whose only reaction is lashing out against anyone who disagrees with your view of the world.

I’m here to warn you what happens if we lose

I have very little doubt that you have anything to fear. You’ve already professed that you have very little care for anyone else besides your immediate family. I’m sure you and your wife will be well protected until the police decide to execute a no-knock warrant on your house because they couldn’t be bothered to verify the address. Or maybe someone will call the police on your house, claiming that you’re holding your own wife hostage. But I’m sure you’d rather have that happen, given your slavish devotion to the police.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Plenty of people get demonized. Including the racial and sexual minorities who you regularly mock, belittle, and demean in your posts. It’s like you don’t even remember your own post history – or intentionally overlook your bigoted moments to push your “woe is me, people don’t like me when I’m an asshole” narrative.
You’ll have to show me that post, because I didn’t write it. And if you are against demonizing people, don’t do it.

Realistically, what do you think “they” could have contributed? What do you think they could have done to swing the needle, beyond not making you feel bad about yourself?

The anti-war movement encouraged our enemies and discouraged our troops. They said if we quit fighting, people will quit dying and they were wrong.

for a split second I wanted to punch her and scream, “Why didn’t you listen!”
Maybe you should have, if to cement the idea that you’re an embittered curmudgeon whose only reaction is lashing out against anyone who disagrees with your view of the world.

I didn’t want “thanked” for my service. We were there to prevent the tragedy that the anti-war crowd said “would never happen”. They were wrong and it happened.

I have very little doubt that you have anything to fear. You’ve already professed that you have very little care for anyone else besides your immediate family. I’m sure you and your wife will be well protected until the police decide to execute a no-knock warrant on your house because they couldn’t be bothered to verify the address. Or maybe someone will call the police on your house, claiming that you’re holding your own wife hostage. But I’m sure you’d rather have that happen, given your slavish devotion to the police.

As I stated in that post there are a lot of correlations between the anti-war and anti-cop movement. The anti-war movement was never the majority, but they were loud and angry. Any setback in the war was pointed to with “see, see, we need to get out now”. Soldiers were spat on and demonized. Songs were written blaming the soldiers for the war. Anyone that stood up in support of the war was immediately attacked, called a “murderer” and a “baby killer”. Peace is what everybody wanted and chants of “Peace Now” sounded reasonable. Eventually the politicians were persuaded and we turned our backs on those that needed us. The worst act of cowardice in American history. The tragedy that followed could have been avoided if those that saw it coming had spoken up.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

The anti-war movement encouraged our enemies and discouraged our troops.

You yourself in the response pointed out that this anti-war movement was “never the majority”. If most of the people at home were still largely on your side, how is it that you bothered to get your feelings hurt over a group of people you personally admit was never a majority? Did you want everyone to kiss your footprints and lick your shoes to make sure you never felt bad about yourself? Do you see any fighting force that loses all their motivation because a small part of their home population disagrees with them? If this was the case, there would never be any functioning army anywhere across the globe.

I didn’t want “thanked” for my service

You get angry when you’re disliked, and you don’t want to be thanked either. There’s genuinely no pleasing someone like you.

As I stated in that post there are a lot of correlations between the anti-war and anti-cop movement.

Unfortunately for you, the people who think that cops shouldn’t kill fleeing unarmed civilians is not a minority.

Arijirija says:

Re: Re:

Well, a good proportion of the American public is armed, heavily, and a certain portion of that population kills off their fellow citizens.

Add to that the joy of being shot dead by a cop “fearing for his life” when you reach for your drivers license in your dash.

Arming everybody’s just going to lead to more shootings.

The sound of gunfire off in the distance …
I’m getting used to it now.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Projects hallucinations not in evidence

Law enforcement families face harassment, vandalism, and threats at home | Washington Examiner
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/law-enforcement-families-face-harassment-vandalism-and-threats-at-home

Longview video of men taunting police officers goes viral – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfeSmjqO9o8

Why This Man Says He Taunts Police Officers – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0AsFUDGrrY

If you treated a TSA agent like these people treat police officers, you would never be allowed on an airplane again.

But to cops we say, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Uh… You don’t know us very well, do you?

First, no one here has ever condoned harassment of the families. That’s what you’re hallucinating. Given the law of large numbers, it’s inevitable that some families of law enforcement officers would be treated as you describe, so no one was asking for evidence of that.

Second, our opinion of TSA employees is no better, and sometimes worse, than that of cops, and many of us believe that the TSA is nothing more than security theater that should be done away with entirely, so that is a terrible comparison.

Third, this has essentially zero impact on our opinion of law enforcement or individual LEOs as we—unlike the culprits in those stories—can differentiate between the people in power and their families.

And no, this also doesn’t change that statement. Even if you have a good reason to not do as good of a job, if you can’t put your all into it, you shouldn’t be doing it. Not when lives are on the line.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

First, no one here has ever condoned harassment of the families. That’s what you’re hallucinating.

Whether you condoned, condemned, or ignored it is irrelevant these things are happening to police officers and there are no repercussions from it. This is the hostile work environment that we only ask police officers to work under and their families live under. The moral of police officers has never been lower, throw in attacks and accusations that also include their families and even the most dedicated officers are questioning if it’s worth it. My granddaughter’s principle sent home a letter asking all parents to standup against “senseless police violence”. All my granddaughter’s friends knew her parents were cops.

No, it is not working for them or their families. Lives are on the line including theirs’s and their families. They are very aware of the sentiment—“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.” And they are leaving. I certainly don’t blame them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Whether you condoned, condemned, or ignored it is irrelevant […]

It is completely relevant as you are making assertions about our opinions with no evidence.

[…] these things are happening to police officers and there are no repercussions from it.

[citation needed] for the assertion that there are no repercussions.

This is the hostile work environment that we only ask police officers to work under and their families live under.

Believe it or not, but police officers are far from the only ones to experience this sort of work environment. Also, again, I condemn those who attack the families, as do most others, but that in no way excuses police officers from their responsibilities.

The moral[e] of police officers has never been lower, […]

Doubtful, and I also don’t care. They caused the problem in the first place, so a low morale is not a big deal.

[…] throw in attacks and accusations that also include their families […]

Once again, their families are a separate issue. How I treat and think of the officers is not affected by how some people decide to act towards their families.

[…] and even the most dedicated officers are questioning if it’s worth it.

[citation needed]

My granddaughter’s principle sent home a letter asking all parents to standup against “senseless police violence”.

  1. Anecdotes are not data.
  2. So what? Are you in favor of senseless police violence?
  3. Frankly, I doubt that this story is true.

No, it is not working for them or their families.

[citation needed]

And I mean data, not anecdotes.

Lives are on the line including theirs’s and their families.

  1. They should have realized that their own lives were on the line when they signed up for the job.
  2. I have seen no evidence that their families’ lives were in the line.

They are very aware of the sentiment—“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Good.

And they are leaving.

Once again, [citation needed]

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

It is completely relevant as you are making assertions about our opinions with no evidence.

Most of the opinions I’ve read in here vary from hating the cops to despising the cops. If you have some other opinions please give me the posters handle. You’re stating that your opinion is relevant to attacks on cops and their families? I wasn’t willing to go that far but I’m sure you have contributed to hostility.

[…] these things are happening to police officers and there are no repercussions from it.
[citation needed] for the assertion that there are no repercussions

I posted this earlier, but some anonymous coward hid it.
Law enforcement families face harassment, vandalism, and threats at home | Washington Examiner
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/law-enforcement-families-face-harassment-vandalism-and-threats-at-home
Longview video of men taunting police officers goes viral – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfeSmjqO9o8
Why This Man Says He Taunts Police Officers – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0AsFUDGrrY

Believe it or not, but police officers are far from the only ones to experience this sort of work environment. Also, again, I condemn those who attack the families, as do most others, but that in no way excuses police officers from their responsibilities.

Watch the videos of people taunting the officers and let me know what other profession endures that treatment.

My granddaughter’s principle sent home a letter asking all parents to standup against “senseless police violence”.

  1. Anecdotes are not data.
  2. So what? Are you in favor of senseless police violence?
  3. Frankly, I doubt that this story is true.

My daughter in law posted it as a jpg on her facebook and I’m not giving out her name but I will type it out for you.

Dear (I’m leaving out the school district) Staff and Community

We are distraught after another senseless shooting of a Black American, Jacob Blake. This devastating time has highlighted pain and fear that fellow human beings of the Black community face every day. It is difficult, painful and frustrating and we must do better as a nation as a school district and as a community. That begins with listening in earnest, learning from the past and taking action to fight for racial equality.

We are seeing young adults from within professional sports making bold statement by cancelling games and postponing playoffs. Citizen across our country are demonstrating against this senseless violence. We want to take this moment to reaffirm our commitment to racial equality. Thank you for entrusting your young children to us, a responsibility that guides and inspires every decision we ,ale/ We believe in our mission “to ensure that every child’s potential is achieved”, this holds true now more important than ever.

Our district and education system can be an agent for change, right here within our schools. Through equitable education and experiences that instill students with awareness and lessons of kindness.

There was a demonstration later that night in which my son and daughter in law were pelted with rocks and bottles.

Once again, [citation needed]

I can keep posting them, but the Cowards will just keep hiding them.

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

Why Portland has fewer cops now than any point in past 30 years – oregonlive.com
https://www.oregonlive.com/data/2021/11/why-portland-has-less-cops-now-than-any-point-in-past-30-years.html
Seattle Police Department staffing reaches 30-year low in 2022 | king5.com
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/mayor-bruce-harrell-new-seattle-police-recruitment-plan-staffing-reaches-30-year-low/281-e98429ee-fc88-47f6-8890-b961393e2047

Some cities are under court orders to hire to more officers.

Minneapolis Mayor Frey’s plan to hire 190 police officers is ‘a heavy lift’ (startribune.com)
https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-mayor-freys-plan-to-hire-190-police-officers-is-a-heavy-lift/600138566/

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Most of the opinions I’ve read in here vary from hating the cops to despising the cops.

I wonder why. /sarc

I posted this earlier, but some anonymous coward hid it.

A single commenter hid a post? You know, you might get a bit more sympathy around here if you weren’t so disingenuous, especially in your description of umnamed commenters as “some anonymous coward”.

Watch the videos of people taunting the officers and let me know what other profession endures that treatment.

The US Armed Forces during the Vietnam War. “Hey, hey, LBJ. How many kids did you kill today?” was regularly chanted at returning troops. LBJ referred to Lyndon B. Johnson, of course.

There was a demonstration later that night in which my son and daughter in law were pelted with rocks and bottles.

And again you leave out the context so reasonable commenters will assume this was senseless violence on the part of “rioters”, but I’m willing to bet they were in uniform with a bunch of their colleagues and triggering violence in a previously peaceful protest as the police often do.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re:

Without saying a word, an 80 year old man with a shotgun working at a liquor store shot a would-be robber carrying an AR-15. He is rightfully considered a hero, but if a cop had done that you would be asking “why didn’t he deescalate?” “Just another trigger happy cop”.

You assume that the same people who say that the 80-year-old man is a hero (which is not universal, by the way) also would criticize a cop in that situation. You also assume that the writers of this article and/or people in these comments would fit that description.

Suffice to say that I highly doubt it. One of the major criticism on this site of the cops in that one school shooting incident was that the cops were too unwilling to actually do their jobs and get inside.

The difference is between someone who is obviously armed and likely or certainly dangerous as opposed to someone who does not present any obvious harms or even could not possibly present any harm to anyone.

An MMA fighter in New York caught a man assaulting other people, and he heroically thru him on the ground and held him there till the police arrived. In the process, he sat on the guy’s chest. Had a police officer done that, you would be demanding they be fired. If the person was on fentanyl and died, you would demand the officer spend the rest of his life in jail.

Guess what? If the guy died, I’d still say that the MMA fighter should spend time in prison. Also, a cop has more options, like a taser or handcuffs, and they should be trained in how to properly restrain a suspect and what not to do. At least the MMA fighter had few alternatives, and it isn’t his job to do this sort of thing, so he’s not exactly trained to do this sort of thing.

You act like it’s crazy to expect someone being paid and trained to be a hero to do a better job than someone who isn’t.

A cop was beaten and choked by a kid and the DA released the kid.

[citation needed]

It isn’t working for them and it won’t work for anybody else.

I know plenty for whom it is working for. I’m sorry that you have such a low standard for cops and a low opinion of humanity that you think literally no one would be able and willing to do the job correctly, but thankfully, that isn’t reality.

Nobody in this forum. Not my children. Not your children.

Irrelevant. Not everyone is cut out for being a cop. Not everyone is cut out to be a computer programmer, either, and I’d say that my job is a heck of a lot easier than being a cop. That doesn’t mean our standards should be lowered to where you think they should be.

They are leaving […]

If they can’t handle the pressure, they shouldn’t be forced into high-pressure situations that are literally a matter of life-and-death. They shouldn’t be in that job in the first place.

[…] and as they leave, the pressure on those that remain becomes more and more until it is unbearable and they too will leave.

I have no reason to believe that the pressure would increase on those who remain given the reason for that pressure in the first place.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

You assume that the same people who say that the 80-year-old man is a hero (which is not universal, by the way) also would criticize a cop in that situation. You also assume that the writers of this article and/or people in these comments would fit that description.

Suffice to say that I highly doubt it. One of the major criticism on this site of the cops in that one school shooting incident was that the cops were too unwilling to actually do their jobs and get inside.

First of all I agree with everything the 80 year old did. I’m saying if a cop had done the same critics of the police would have demanded he be fired and maybe even arrested for not first trying to deescalate the situation.

As for the Uvalde incident. As a parent you give your life for your kids with no hesitation. I’m willing to guess that every cop there was a parent so why the hesitation? In North Hollywood when the 13 year old girl was killed, the officer who shot was repeatedly warned to slow down and evaluate. Two completely opposite approaches used and both resulted in heart breaking tragedies. I’m almost certain that in the event of another Uvalde the cops will charge in and I pray it will be the right approach.

Guess what? If the guy died, I’d still say that the MMA fighter should spend time in prison.

I agree with everything the MMA fighter did as well. Even if the guy died the DA would not charge the MMA fighter for the same reason they dropped the charges against the old man in the bodega that stabbed and killed his assailant. Cops don’t get that consideration.

You act like it’s crazy to expect someone being paid and trained to be a hero to do a better job than someone who isn’t.

An MMA fighter is much better trained for subduing someone hand to hand than a cop is. The MMA fighter faces that challenge probably 4 or 5 times a week in training and in that training he practices using his body weight and even a choke hold to subdue someone.

Cops get 8 hours of hand to hand training every two years and they may never use it. Cops rely on pepper spray and Tasers but those are distance weapons and when it gets to the hand to hand stage cops with their equipment are at a disadvantage. They are also at a disadvantage in tactics allowed.

MMA fighter has years of training, muscle memory and reflexes to rely on.

The cop has a plan that was taught him in his biennial training. As Mike Tyson said, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth” and the cop is getting punched in the mouth (maybe for the first time). The cop also knows he has a gun and if it gets turned on him, he’s dead so now the struggle is life and death. Panic sets in, then fatigue then desperation. That is exactly what happened with Darren Wilson and Michael Brown. Officer Rolf and Rayshard Brooks, and Patrick Lyoya and Christopher Schurr and many more.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:

MMA fighter has years of training, muscle memory and reflexes to rely on.

So do the police, and yet their interactions tend to end in fatalities whereas the mixed martial artist’s didn’t, despite the police in New York getting specifically training in appropriate restraint and deescalation techniques that the mixed martial artist wouldn’t have received. Funny that.

Panic sets in, then fatigue then desperation. That is exactly what happened with Darren Wilson and Michael Brown. Officer Rolf and Rayshard Brooks, and Patrick Lyoya and Christopher Schurr and many more.

[Citation desperately needed]

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

First of all I agree with everything the 80 year old did. I’m saying if a cop had done the same critics of the police would have demanded he be fired and maybe even arrested for not first trying to deescalate the situation.

  1. That is pure assertion on your part. Given the observation of AR-15s in the suspect’s possession, I’m pretty sure that most here would say that a cop would be justified doing the same thing as the old man under this situation.
  2. You also assume that the critics wouldn’t also condemn the old man.
  3. Even ignoring all that, you fail to recognize that people have different expectations for an untrained 80-year-old than for a trained police officer. Surprisingly, a police officer who is supposed to be trained to handle situations like these is expected to do a better job than someone who wasn’t. How surprising.

As for the Uvalde incident. As a parent you give your life for your kids with no hesitation. I’m willing to guess that every cop there was a parent […]

I am not willing to make that assumption given the complete lack of evidence that any of them were parents and the law of large numbers suggesting that at least some of them probably weren’t parents.

[…] so why the hesitation?

Poor training? Lack of coordination? Incompetence? Cowardice? I don’t know. However, I’m pretty sure that most people would agree that things should have been handled differently even without the benefit of hindsight.

I agree with everything the MMA fighter did as well. Even if the guy died the DA would not charge the MMA fighter for the same reason they dropped the charges against the old man in the bodega that stabbed and killed his assailant.

Upon further research, I believe that there was no chance of that happening. That said, in some jurisdictions, there is no “Stand Your Ground” law, so civilians could still be charged if a death occurred.

Cops don’t get that consideration.

Correct. They are given a much stronger benefit of the doubt. They shouldn’t be, but they are.

An MMA fighter is much better trained for subduing someone hand to hand than a cop is.

Perhaps, but that doesn’t mean that a cop shouldn’t know what not to do.

The MMA fighter faces that challenge probably 4 or 5 times a week in training and in that training he practices using his body weight and even a choke hold to subdue someone.

I frankly don’t care about the minutiae. And, frankly, I doubt you have any greater insight on the matter than I do, and it’s ultimately irrelevant.

Cops get 8 hours of hand to hand training every two years and they may never use it.

I would argue the issue is that cops should receive more training, not that we should accept poor results.

Cops rely on pepper spray and Tasers but those are distance weapons and when it gets to the hand to hand stage cops with their equipment are at a disadvantage.

In the one situation where a cop was criticized for kneeling or sitting on someone’s upper back, killing them, there were plenty of other cops on the scene at that time. Are you suggesting that one of them couldn’t have pulled the guy off if there was any danger to begin with?

And no, having equipment doesn’t put them at a disadvantage. They still have these things called “handcuffs”, and those work great at close-range.

They are also at a disadvantage in tactics allowed.

But they are at an advantage in terms of total tactics available, especially when at a numerical advantage. Taking away the tactics disallowed to the cops still offers plenty of options to choose from.

The cop has a plan that was taught him in his biennial training. As Mike Tyson said, “Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth” and the cop is getting punched in the mouth (maybe for the first time). The cop also knows he has a gun and if it gets turned on him, he’s dead so now the struggle is life and death. Panic sets in, then fatigue then desperation.

First, if they can’t handle it, they aren’t fit for the job. I’m sorry, but that’s how it is.

Second, none of the instances we’ve criticized had the cop being assaulted or the suspect being visibly armed. You need to stop attacking straw men.

Third, so far, that has not been the case in any of the instance being mentioned.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Cannon fodder

I know plenty for whom it is working for. I’m sorry that you have such a low standard for cops and a low opinion of humanity that you think literally no one would be able and willing to do the job correctly, but thankfully, that isn’t reality.

Really, because the cops I know and talk to say the job has changed. Cops used to have a mission of getting the bad guys off the streets and now that mission is unsupported. Now they are defined as the bad guys even to their own children. With the incarceration of Kim Potter, cops know they can risk their lives and be an exemplary officer for decades yet if you make a tragic split-second mistake, the country will howl for your blood. 2021 was a 20 year high in the intentional killing of police officers.

“One bullet from death, one mistake from prison.”

I bring this topic up with every cop I meet and they are all looking for the exit. Captains, Lieutenants give them the “hang in there” speech but they are making plans. Those with 3 or 4 years to go are looking for places to hide till retirement. Those in mid careers are looking to start over, either in another profession or on a force that appreciates them. Many Progressive cities have backtracked but for most it is too late. They’ll give the unions whatever they want, they’ll pay retention bonuses, give them raises and still they can’t stem the tide. Despite lowered standards, moving allowances, and signing bonuses they can’t get enough warm bodies to fill the vacancies. It is costing more to train recruits because so many are dropping out before completing their training.

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

Why Portland has fewer cops now than any point in past 30 years – oregonlive.com
https://www.oregonlive.com/data/2021/11/why-portland-has-less-cops-now-than-any-point-in-past-30-years.html
Seattle Police Department staffing reaches 30-year low in 2022 | king5.com
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/seattle/mayor-bruce-harrell-new-seattle-police-recruitment-plan-staffing-reaches-30-year-low/281-e98429ee-fc88-47f6-8890-b961393e2047

Some cities are under court orders to hire to more officers.

Minneapolis Mayor Frey’s plan to hire 190 police officers is ‘a heavy lift’ (startribune.com)
https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-mayor-freys-plan-to-hire-190-police-officers-is-a-heavy-lift/600138566/

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Really, because the cops I know and talk to say the job has changed.

Then you and I talk with different cops.

Cops used to have a mission of getting the bad guys off the streets […]

Which they still have as their job.

[…] and now that mission is unsupported.

No. We just are fed up with the whole “ends justify the means” attitude from many cops and many police forces.

Now they are defined as the bad guys even to their own children.

[citation needed]

With the incarceration of Kim Potter […]

Doesn’t matter how you finish that statement because whatever you intend to say, I have zero sympathy.

I bring this topic up with every cop I meet and they are all looking for the exit. Captains, Lieutenants give them the “hang in there” speech but they are making plans. Those with 3 or 4 years to go are looking for places to hide till retirement. Those in mid careers are looking to start over, either in another profession or on a force that appreciates them.

Cry me a river. I don’t care. And, again, this is not my experience with cop acquaintances.

As for the rest, again, I don’t care.

>

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

If they can’t handle the pressure, they shouldn’t be forced into high-pressure situations that are literally a matter of life-and-death. They shouldn’t be in that job in the first place.

I have no reason to believe that the pressure would increase on those who remain given the reason for that pressure in the first place.

My son’s department was way understaffed and they were going from one call to the next. If they stopped to arrest someone for something minor the other cops would be pissed because they had to take up the slack and there wasn’t any. That was 3 years ago and it is much worse now.

When you are handling a shooting and you have no backup. Then you get a call of officer needs help and you’re the closest unit. Then there are two domestic violence calls waiting to be answered. That’s a moment with a lot of pressure. Do that day after because there is no one to relieve you. How long before you quit?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

My son’s department was way understaffed and they were going from one call to the next. If they stopped to arrest someone for something minor the other cops would be pissed because they had to take up the slack and there wasn’t any. That was 3 years ago and it is much worse now.

So your son’s department is closed now? Don’t talk shit.

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That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

“the most extreme, unrepresentative behaviors by a few of those in our profession have been continually highlighted and portrayed as the norm”

And yet magically they are almost NEVER held to account, by their force, by their chief, by internal affairs, by courts… and IF that magic happens & one is held to account in even the most minimal way the union screams arbitration and demand they be put back on the job… and they get their jobs back.

They lie in court, they lie about encounters, they abuse their position and no one in a position of authority seems to give a shit.

the most extreme, unrepresentative behaviors by a few of those in our the african american community have been continually highlighted and portrayed as the norm

You don’t seem to like being profiled, maybe stop doing it to others you whiny bitch?

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davec (profile) says:

Whatever you plan to replace the police with, you better hurry and get it working.

You are so angry with the police that when you see them abused, assaulted, taunted, threaten, injured and killed you have absolutely no compassion for them or their families.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

You call other people heroes yet if a police officer were to do the same thing, you would demand he be fired. Without saying a word, an 80 year old man with a shotgun working at a liquor store shot a would-be robber carrying an AR-15. He is rightfully considered a hero, but if a cop had done that you would be asking “why didn’t he deescalate?” “Just another trigger happy cop”. “I hope the kid’s parents sue the shit out of him”. “He should be fired”.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

An MMA fighter in New York caught a man assaulting other people, and he heroically thru the guy on the ground and held him there till the police arrived. In the process, he sat on the guy’s chest. Had a police officer done that, you would be demanding they be fired. If the person was on fentanyl and died, you would demand the officer spend the rest of his life in jail.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

A cop was beaten and choked by a kid and the DA released the kid.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

It isn’t working for them and it won’t work for anybody else. Nobody in this forum. Not my children. Not your children. They are leaving and as they leave, the pressure on those that remain becomes more and more until it is unbearable and they too will leave.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Over the past few years, we have had to deal with protecting peaceful protesters from rioters and criminals who sought to take down our democracy, even when some of those peaceful protesters wanted to abolish our profession. We have been placed in the middle of so many conflicts that it has almost become commonplace to use our profession as the whipping board, meaning even when we do the right thing, we do the wrong thing!

And those people who he thinks don’t have enough respect for the cops watched as the cops stood by and let the Proud Boys and similar groups assault protesters without getting involved. They also watched, as even now, cops have conducted slow down measures to try to make people feel bad for wanting top defund them, only proving that they’re not responsible peacekeepers, but privileged, immature power-wielders. If you want people to believe the cops can do good, then show them rather than demand respect. Reform yourselves before you expect the victims of mispolicing to change their perspective or forget their trauma.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Whatever you plan to replace the police with, you better hurry and get it working.

You are so angry with the police that when you see them abused, assaulted, taunted, threaten, injured and killed you have absolutely no compassion for them or their families.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

You call other people heroes yet if a police officer were to do the same thing, you would demand he be fired. Without saying a word, an 80 year old man with a shotgun working at a liquor store shot a would-be robber carrying an AR-15. He is rightfully considered a hero, but if a cop had done that you would be asking “why didn’t he deescalate?” “Just another trigger happy cop”. “I hope the kid’s parents sue the shit out of him”. “He should be fired”.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

An MMA fighter in New York caught a man assaulting other people, and he heroically thru the guy on the ground and held him there till the police arrived. In the process, he sat on the guy’s chest. Had a police officer done that, you would be demanding they be fired. If the person was on fentanyl and died, you would demand the officer spend the rest of his life in jail.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

A cop was beaten and choked by a kid and the DA released the kid.

“If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

It isn’t working for them and it won’t work for anybody else. Nobody in this forum. Not my children. Not your children. They are leaving and as they leave, the pressure on those that remain becomes more and more until it is unbearable and they too will leave.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

“What I tell you three times is true” doesn’t work for cut & paste.

Shotgun. The police are supposed to be trained professionals. Are you saying they have no better alternatives or respone that an 80 year old shopkeeper?

Sat on chest. Not choking to death. An Fentanyl – really, still lying about that?

Kid released – because? What’s the context?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: It's not working for them.

Shotgun. The police are supposed to be trained professionals. Are you saying they have no better alternatives or respone that an 80 year old shopkeeper?

Armed man shot by 80-year-old California store owner with shotgun (usatoday.com)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/08/03/armed-robber-80-owner-california-shotgun-norco/10226047002/

The old man could have just given the money. He could have ran out the back prior to the robber entering the store. What he did was heroic yet we could second guess the whole scenario a hundred times and if he was a cop we would. Your conclusion would be “just another trigger happy cop”.

But hey, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Sat on chest. Not choking to death. An Fentanyl – really, still lying about that?

MMA fighter takes down crazy man punching people in NYC street | Daily Mail Online
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11080685/MMA-fighter-takes-crazy-man-punching-people-NYC-street.html

The MMA fighter acted heroically and stopped a man who was hurting other people. Then he sat on the guy’s chest until the cops came. New York just passed a law making chest compression by police illegal. Had a cop done the same thing, he would have been fired and arrested.

But hey, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Kid released – because? What’s the context?

Teen freed despite video of him attacking cops — why NYC crime is out of control (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/07/26/teen-freed-despite-video-of-him-attacking-cops-why-nyc-crime-is-out-of-control/
Had this kid been attacking anyone other than a cop I’m sure the judge would have held him in custody.

But hey, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

It’s not working for them.

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The old man could have just given the money. He could have ran out the back prior to the robber entering the store. What he did was heroic yet we could second guess the whole scenario a hundred times and if he was a cop we would. Your conclusion would be “just another trigger happy cop”.

When the wouldbe robber was clearly armed? Only in the imagination of someone that’s pro-violent cops.

The MMA fighter acted heroically and stopped a man who was hurting other people. Then he sat on the guy’s chest until the cops came. New York just passed a law making chest compression by police illegal. Had a cop done the same thing, he would have been fired and arrested.

Funny, the photos in the article you linked to showed the mixed martial arts fighter sitting on the alleged assailant’s back, not his chest, and since the police (should) receive training in appropriate restraint and members of the public aren’t expected to have received such training as a matter of course, it’s natural that each group is held to different standards. That’s not the hypocrisy you so badly want it to be.

Teen freed despite video of him attacking cops — why NYC crime is out of control (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/07/26/teen-freed-despite-video-of-him-attacking-cops-why-nyc-crime-is-out-of-control/

Had this kid been attacking anyone other than a cop I’m sure the judge would have held him in custody.

Except that’s not what happened at all, you violent cop apologist liar. The teens in the video were actually arrested for assaulting an officer of the law and other charges, arraigned in family court and released ROR until their next court appearance. That’s a lot different than your violent cop sympathy getter of “released before the arrest paperwork could be completed” bullshit you keep spreading.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

When the wouldbe robber was clearly armed? Only in the imagination of someone that’s pro-violent cops.

The old man saw them in the parking lot preparing to rob the store.

Funny, the photos in the article you linked to showed the mixed martial arts fighter sitting on the alleged assailant’s back, not his chest, and since the police (should) receive training in appropriate restraint and members of the public aren’t expected to have received such training as a matter of course, it’s natural that each group is held to different standards. That’s not the hypocrisy you so badly want it to be.

Think it through. If you are sitting on someone’s back and their chest is on the sidewalk. You are compressing their chest. If it helps you, try imagining an elephant sitting on his back.

Except that’s not what happened at all, you violent cop apologist liar. The teens in the video were actually arrested for assaulting an officer of the law and other charges, arraigned in family court and released ROR until their next court appearance. That’s a lot different than your violent cop sympathy getter of “released before the arrest paperwork could be completed” bullshit you keep spreading.

Punches, and chokes a cop and then is released ROR. Had it been an elderly man, a woman, or some other protected group, the judge wouldn’t have released him. But since it was only a cop we don’t care. We tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.” And that’s why they are leaving.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:4

The old man saw them in the parking lot preparing to rob the store.

Therefore clearly armed, just as I said.

Think it through. If you are sitting on someone’s back and their chest is on the sidewalk. You are compressing their chest. If it helps you, try imagining an elephant sitting on his back.

Sitting on someone’s back is no more sitting on their chest than sitting on their legs is sitting on their groin even if their genitals are compressed. You think about it if you can be bothered to engage your brain.

Punches, and chokes a cop and then is released ROR.

Which is not the same as “released before the arrest paperwork was completed,” as you keep claiming.

Had it been an elderly man, a woman, or some other protected group, the judge wouldn’t have released him.

Firstly, women aren’t a protected group, but at least you’re consistent in your use of bullshit to maintain your false narrative. Second, it was two teens who were arrested, not one. Are you seriously this ignorant or just stupid? Thirdly, it’s likely the teens would have been released under those circumstances since there has to be a compelling reason not to. I know you won’t be a fan of this fact, but the 4th Amendment applies to all Americans, not just cops.

But since it was only a cop we don’t care. We tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.” And that’s why they are leaving.

Prove it, because I see the most cops leave the job in the wake of one of their colleagues going down for murder or manslaughter, indicating they’re leaving because they realized they’re just as subject to the law as ordinary citizens.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Sitting on someone’s back is no more sitting on their chest than sitting on their legs is sitting on their groin even if their genitals are compressed. You think about it if you can be bothered to engage your brain.

It seems apparent that a lot of your clients are in jail. Lay face down on the floor and have your husband sit on your back. Get back to me and let me know if you understand about chest compression.

Firstly, women aren’t a protected group, but at least you’re consistent in your use of bullshit to maintain your false narrative. Second, it was two teens who were arrested, not one. Are you seriously this ignorant or just stupid? Thirdly, it’s likely the teens would have been released under those circumstances since there has to be a compelling reason not to. I know you won’t be a fan of this fact, but the 4th Amendment applies to all Americans, not just cops.

You are right there were 2 but I’m more concerned about the male who punched and choked the officer. I certainly hope they eventually punish the female as well. You do understand there was a gun involved in that fight—the cop was wearing it so it could very well have been a life and death struggle. We tell officers “we want you to stop people from doing this or doing that” and when they do they get punched and choked and end up fighting for their lives. Instead of supporting them, we treat them like just another drunk in a bar fight. Then we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Prove it, because I see the most cops leave the job in the wake of one of their colleagues going down for murder or manslaughter, indicating they’re leaving because they realized they’re just as subject to the law as ordinary citizens.

You don’t need me to prove anything. You are supposedly a defense attorney so you must see lots of cops on a daily basis. Have you ever stopped to talk with them? If not, why not? Asked them how they feel about their job. If they give you a negative response, just tell them, “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”
Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Get back to me and let me know if you understand about chest compression.

This doesn’t change the fact that you were wrong when you said he sat on his chest. Get over it.

You are right there were 2 but I’m more concerned about the male who punched and choked the officer. I certainly hope they eventually punish the female as well. You do understand there was a gun involved in that fight—the cop was wearing it so it could very well have been a life and death struggle. We tell officers “we want you to stop people from doing this or doing that” and when they do they get punched and choked and end up fighting for their lives. Instead of supporting them, we treat them like just another drunk in a bar fight. Then we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.“

Notice how at no point was Anonymous Attorney saying that the kids shouldn’t be punished or that the cop in this case was in the wrong at all. Stop attacking a strawman. No one is saying that the teens should go unpunished, and no one is saying that cops shouldn’t defend themselves at all. I’m sorry that you’re unable to determine that nuance exists.

The problem is that you said that they were allowed to go free, which is not at all what happened, and that this is standard procedure absent extraordinary circumstances and the exact same rules would apply if the roles were reversed. Again, you seem completely incapable of understanding nuance or in accepting that you messed up.

Whether or not you intended to do it, your initial characterization of these two events was wrong and left out important details. Again, just own up to it and move on.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The problem is that you said that they were allowed to go free, which is not at all what happened, and that this is standard procedure absent extraordinary circumstances and the exact same rules would apply if the roles were reversed. Again, you seem completely incapable of understanding nuance or in accepting that you messed up.

They were allowed to go free instead of being thrown in jail and awaiting trial. Here is the article, read how the cops and even the mayor felt about it.

Teen charged in fight with cop was sprung without bail days earlier (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/07/26/teen-charged-in-fight-with-cop-was-sprung-without-bail-days-earlier/

They want to treat a kid like a kid (DA’s version) unless it is a violent felony. Apparently punching and choking a cop isn’t considered a violent felony. Had the cop choked the kid, there would have been marches, protests, and the cop would be in jail.

Imagine the cop returning to work and seeing the same kid doing the same thing only this time he has 6 or 7 friends with him daring the cop to do something about it. Now do you understand why the cops feel abandoned? Then we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

They were allowed to go free instead of being thrown in jail and awaiting trial. Here is the article, read how the cops and even the mayor felt about it.

Again, standard procedure. I couldn’t care less how the cops and mayor felt about it because it doesn’t change anything about how I feel about it or the facts of the situation.

They want to treat a kid like a kid (DA’s version) unless it is a violent felony. Apparently punching and choking a cop isn’t considered a violent felony.

Nor should it be. It’s a misdemeanor.

Had the cop choked the kid, there would have been marches, protests, and the cop would be in jail.

Yes, shockingly, when you have an adult cop choke a kid, people feel completely differently than when it’s the other way around. It’s almost like there’s a massive difference in power or something…

Really, choosing a minor was a bad choice on your part. We always give kids more leniency than adults.

Imagine the cop returning to work and seeing the same kid doing the same thing only this time he has 6 or 7 friends with him daring the cop to do something about it.

If that happens, then the kid and his friends will be thrown in jail since they are now repeat offenders. The cop can also call for a bunch of backup.

Again, I don’t think you’ve really thought this one through.

Now do you understand why the cops feel abandoned?

No. No I do not. Because the best you can come up with are hypotheticals and cases that no one is saying the cop was in the wrong.

Then we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

And I have no problem with that.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Again, standard procedure. I couldn’t care less how the cops and mayor felt about it because it doesn’t change anything about how I feel about it or the facts of the situation.

Would it change your opinion if it was you the kid was punching and choking?

Nor should it be. It’s a misdemeanor.

No it is not a misdemeanor. In New York it’s a class C felony punishable with up to 15 years in prison and yet they let the kid (who is a repeat offender) out ROR.

Assaulting a Peace Officer, Police Officer, Emergency Medical Services Professional, or Fireman: New York Penal Code § 120.08 | New York Criminal Defense Lawyer Barry Weiss (newyorkcriminallawyer24-7.com)

https://www.newyorkcriminallawyer24-7.com/assaulting-a-peace-officer-police-officer-emergency-medical-serv.html

Yes, shockingly, when you have an adult cop choke a kid, people feel completely differently than when it’s the other way around. It’s almost like there’s a massive difference in power or something…
Really, choosing a minor was a bad choice on your part. We always give kids more leniency than adults.

You didn’t even watch the video, did you? No, nothing is going to change your mind.

If that happens, then the kid and his friends will be thrown in jail since they are now repeat offenders. The cop can also call for a bunch of backup.

Again, I don’t think you’ve really thought this one through.

He is a repeat offender! You didn’t even bother read the article.

Now do you understand why the cops feel abandoned?
No. No I do not. Because the best you can come up with are hypotheticals and cases that no one is saying the cop was in the wrong.

We used to defend police officers and demand harsh penalties for attacking them. The job has changed. Now we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

And that is why they are leaving.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Would it change your opinion if it was you the kid was punching and choking?

Absolutely not. Any attack on the Bill of Rights just makes my job harder.

No it is not a misdemeanor. In New York it’s a class C felony punishable with up to 15 years in prison and yet they let the kid (who is a repeat offender) out ROR.

That doesn’t mean the 4th Amendment shouldn’t apply. Enough with the whataboutism.

You didn’t even watch the video, did you?

I didn’t have to, the article I read explained events well enough that I could use my imagination.

No, nothing is going to change your mind.

Just as the SCOTUS hasn’t changed its mind about what should be in the US Constitution.

He is a repeat offender!

Yes, I know. That doesn’t change the facts around the 4th Amendment and reasonableness.

You didn’t even bother read the article.

Of course not, the NY Post is biased in its reporting of facts. That’s why I read an article covering the case on a different news site.

We used to defend police officers and demand harsh penalties for attacking them.

And then they had to wear body cameras and their trumped up charges of “assault of an officer” vanished like smoke on the wind.

The job has changed.

It’s called “increased accountability”, the increase being from zero.

And that is why they are leaving.

Actually, those few who are leaving are doing so either because they’re in prison for killing a suspect (or suspects) or because they find the idea of their actions having very public consequences to be scary.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

That doesn’t mean the 4th Amendment shouldn’t apply. Enough with the whataboutism.

There was a video of the kid committing a felony while he was awaiting trial on another felony. Where was the unreasonable part of placing the kid in jail?

I didn’t have to, the article I read explained events well enough that I could use my imagination.

You want to judge the outcome, you just don’t want to see the evidence.

Of course not, the NY Post is biased in its reporting of facts. That’s why I read an article covering the case on a different news site.

Post the article.

And then they had to wear body cameras and their trumped up charges of “assault of an officer” vanished like smoke on the wind.

You want video evidence and then when you have it, you don’t want to look at it.

It’s called “increased accountability”, the increase being from zero.
Actually, those few who are leaving are doing so either because they’re in prison for killing a suspect (or suspects) or because they find the idea of their actions having very public consequences to be scary.

I will agree. Kim Potter’s arrest and conviction sent a chill through every police officer. That along with the increased killing of police officers led to them leaving. “One bullet from death. One mistake from prison.”

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Where was the unreasonable part of placing the kid in jail?

Unless a minor commits murder, it’s recognized as unreasonable to punish them as harshly as we would an adult.

You want to judge the outcome, you just don’t want to see the evidence.

That’s your interpretation. The fact is a blow-by-blow account of the teens’ actions from their fare dodging to their arrest by a reporter who saw the video is good enough for me. It doesn’t mean there’s any less evidence than in the actual video.

Post the article.

No, that would involve copyright infringement.

You want video evidence and then when you have it, you don’t want to look at it.

That tu quoque fallacy from you only proves you’re arguing in bad faith.

Kim Potter’s arrest and conviction sent a chill through every police officer.

As it should. But to leave the job rather than learn lessons from what happened in Potter’s case proves it’s increased accountability that’s scary to LEOs, not the risk of something going wrong.

…the increased killing of police officers led to them leaving.

I haven’t seen an increase in police deaths as great as the increase in deaths of police suspects, so that’s clearly another example of whataboutism.

“One bullet from death. One mistake from prison.”

Which is the fault of the police, no one else.

Anonymous Attorney says:

Re: Re: Re:10

From the link in your comment:

To summarize, a person is guilty of committing a Class C felony, assaulting a peace officer, police officer, emergency medical services professional, or fireman, if they cause serious physical injury to such person with the intent of preventing such person from carrying out their assigned responsibilities.

Basically, the teen who tried to choke out the cop didn’t commit a class C felony or even assault of a police officer because he didn’t cause serious physical injury. Thank you for providing the evidence necessary to disprove your case.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

To summarize, a person is guilty of committing a Class C felony, assaulting a peace officer, police officer, emergency medical services professional, or fireman, if they cause serious physical injury to such person with the intent of preventing such person from carrying out their assigned responsibilities.
Basically, the teen who tried to choke out the cop didn’t commit a class C felony or even assault of a police officer because he didn’t cause serious physical injury. Thank you for providing the evidence necessary to disprove your case.

As you said before the case hasn’t gone to trial yet. I’m sure they will use the video (that you didn’t watch) at his trial. The complaint was that the kid was already awaiting trial for robbery and assault and then he assaults a cop and the DA still releases him as if assaulting a cop was insignificant.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Would it change your opinion if it was you the kid was punching and choking?

Nope.

No it is not a misdemeanor. In New York it’s a class C felony punishable with up to 15 years in prison and yet they let the kid (who is a repeat offender) out ROR.

Personally, I disagree with that law. Police shouldn’t be getting special treatment here. More importantly, this doesn’t really change the 4th Amendment.

You didn’t even watch the video, did you?

I went off of your description. Really, though, it doesn’t much matter to me either way. A kid doing something to an adult is almost always seen as less heinous than an adult doing it to a kid. It really doesn’t matter what the kid did.

He is a repeat offender! You didn’t even bother read the article.

The New York Post is a tabloid. They make up a lot of stories and are prone to exaggeration.

At any rate, I was going off of what you presented as a hypothetical.

We used to defend police officers and demand harsh penalties for attacking them.

Maybe you did. I think cops should be able to handle themselves against a kid.

The job has changed.

No. People are just not letting them get away with everything.

Now we tell them “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

Which is no different from any other career.

And that is why they are leaving.

If so, then good. I see no problem with that.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You are so angry with the police that when you see them abused, assaulted, taunted, threaten, injured and killed you have absolutely no compassion for them or their families.

Considering that the police regularly abuse other people, it’s hard to find compassion when they do get abused.

You call other people heroes yet if a police officer were to do the same thing, you would demand he be fired.

Mostly because that’s not what they’re fucking supposed to do. And your examples are so stripped of context it’s hard NOT to assume you’re arguing in bad faith.

It isn’t working for them and it won’t work for anybody else. Nobody in this forum. Not my children. Not your children. They are leaving and as they leave, the pressure on those that remain becomes more and more until it is unbearable and they too will leave.

Said the brownshirt. In support of the blue-coloured brownshirt force.

And judging by the numbers, they don’t seem too pressured to leave.

Reminder: Once they’re done with us, YOU’RE NEXT.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

It really is strange that you keep bringing up these “examples” and yet can never put a single name or link or citation. You really do double down on your son being the only source of news you have besides Fox, don’t you chumley?

If the police did accidentally blow up your house and kill your wife because they fucked up on a no-knock warrant in a case of mistaken identity, I would say it sucks for your wife. Maybe have compassion for her. You… not so much. After all, you okayed the system that let your wife get shot.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

It really is strange that you keep bringing up these “examples” and yet can never put a single name or link or citation. You really do double down on your son being the only source of news you have besides Fox, don’t you chumley?

Here are your links and none from Fox

Armed man shot by 80-year-old California store owner with shotgun (usatoday.com)
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/08/03/armed-robber-80-owner-california-shotgun-norco/10226047002/

MMA fighter takes down crazy man punching people in NYC street | Daily Mail Online
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11080685/MMA-fighter-takes-crazy-man-punching-people-NYC-street.html

Teen freed despite video of him attacking cops — why NYC crime is out of control (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/07/26/teen-freed-despite-video-of-him-attacking-cops-why-nyc-crime-is-out-of-control/

And then there is this

It’s not working for them.

Thousands of NYPD cops quitting before getting their pensions (nypost.com)
https://nypost.com/2022/08/06/thousands-of-nypd-cops-quitting-before-getting-their-pensions/

Wyrm (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

First, you must be busy at home, cleaning all the straw.
Second, please don’t pretend you know how we would react to news of something happening with and without cops involved.

Your first sample case, robbers coming in a store with ARs at the ready. I’d excuse anyone for shooting at them, be they cops or civilians. Don’t pretend we would trash the cops for it.
But the majority of cases we complain about are cops shooting at unharmed men, or going to stupidly great length to catch armed white men alive while they shoot black men on sight regardless of what they’re holding.

Second case, I see the MMA fighter straddling the violent offender on his lower back, not upper, and using a hand to exert control on the shoulder. No chest compression here. Also, there is no way to tell, but I’m pretty sure our hero here would have eased pressure on the guy if he showed signs of labored breathing. The man is supposed to be a seasoned fighter, so he knows how to subdue a guy without killing him. That’s how MMA fights are not to the death.
If cops were involved and treated suspects the same way, I’d have no objection. This is not like Chauvin pressing on someone upper back and neck for several minutes passed the moment the suspect loses consciousness. If you can’t see the difference, I recommend you take MMA classes.

The third case is one I can partially agree with you. Though, from what I see in stats and news, the youth here is more the exception than the norm. But what you have described here is a minor who’s a repeat violent offender, who gets freed until his trial without bail. This should be ok the first time, but not after repeated violations. Also, the justice process is slow, so he has plenty of time to commit new violations. That’s a problem, but it’s not like he’s free of consequences yet. Just that consequences are too slow to come.

So, spare us your black and white analysis of situations, and spare us your failed mind reading. Your strawmen don’t impress me.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

First, you must be busy at home, cleaning all the straw.
Second, please don’t pretend you know how we would react to news of something happening with and without cops involved.

I have been following this anti-cop blog by Cushing for nearly a year and I have yet to read anyone defending the police. If any of you have an opinion that doesn’t blame cops first, last and always, you haven’t expressed it.

Your first sample case, robbers coming in a store with ARs at the ready. I’d excuse anyone for shooting at them, be they cops or civilians. Don’t pretend we would trash the cops for it.
But the majority of cases we complain about are cops shooting at unharmed men, or going to stupidly great length to catch armed white men alive while they shoot black men on sight regardless of what they’re holding.

Cops kill more White people than Black and many of those are suicide by cop. Many of the people shot by cops are involved in gang activity. There are approximately 1 million gang members and 89 percent are not White. If you want to equate that with racism go ahead but they also kill about 20 times more men than women so I guess they must also be sexist as well.

If cops were involved and treated suspects the same way, I’d have no objection. This is not like Chauvin pressing on someone upper back and neck for several minutes passed the moment the suspect loses consciousness. If you can’t see the difference, I recommend you take MMA classes.

I boxed from the time I was 6 till I was 21. Look up the name Jerry Quarry, we had the same trainer. People get hurt and sometimes killed unintentionally despite all the safety precautions. You match opponents by size and experience. You rely on the referee, the rules and padding to prevent killing or being killed. Now imagine there are no rules and the other guy is trying to kill you. Throw in a gun and you see the challenge cops face. A guy came at my daughter in law with a knife—what were the rules? My granddaughter was 3.

The third case is one I can partially agree with you. Though, from what I see in stats and news, the youth here is more the exception than the norm.

From the kids recorded he is well on his way to spending most of his life in prison. The question is how many victims he will leave in his wake. It used to be shocking to see people attacking cops but that was over 5 years ago, now it seems irrelevant. Now we just tell the cops “If this isn’t working for you, nothing is forcing you to continue taking the public’s money to half-ass a job you no longer enjoy.”

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Cops kill more White people than Black…

The Washington Post would beg to differ. BTW, boxing differs massively from MMA. Experience in one doesn’t equate to experience in the other. If it did, then I could be a Supreme Court justice simply based on the fact I’m a defense attorney.

Police shootings database 2015-2022 – Washingtohttps://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/n Post

MMA and boxing are two different sports, but both require safety measures to prevent serious injury. In boxing you lose your speed, your footwork, your balance, but you never lose your punch. I’m 71 and I go to the gym 7 days a week and I usually hit the heavy bag 3 or 4 times a week. I’m old and slow, but I can still hit hard enough to kill someone.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Meanwhile, I do.

Due to a hilarious quirk of fate, I do HEMA, and my classes do come with grappling/wrestling lessons.

Getting to the “sitting on someone’s back/chest” part to restrain an attacker is stupid HARD. Even with an instructor present AND safety gear on AND willing, consensual opponents. And training. In the specified lesson specifically meant to teach us how to do so. And doing it in simulated fighting is harder still. Same settings, same precautions.

If I can’t reliably perform these takedowns and restraints even in a training setting, it’d be a lot harder for the thugs in blue to do so, and that’s part of their fucking job. And yet, somehow, most police forces all over the world excluding the US can reliably do these takedowns.

davec, stop trying to smear shit all over this place.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Getting to the “sitting on someone’s back/chest” part to restrain an attacker is stupid HARD. Even with an instructor present AND safety gear on AND willing, consensual opponents. And training. In the specified lesson specifically meant to teach us how to do so. And doing it in simulated fighting is harder still. Same settings, same precautions.

You are probably physically retarded. The MMA fighters and wrestlers do it all the time. Sitting on someone’s back/chest is a very effective way of subduing and restraining someone which is why the MMA fighter used it. However if you are a cop they will put you in prison for doing it.

Court Reinstates Ban on N.Y.P.D.’s Use of Holds That Restrict Breathing – The New York Times (nytimes.com)
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/19/nyregion/nyc-diaphragm-law-police.html

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You are probably physically retarded. The MMA fighters and wrestlers do it all the time. Sitting on someone’s back/chest is a very effective way of subduing and restraining someone which is why the MMA fighter used it. However if you are a cop they will put you in prison for doing it.

I see the reality distortion field has really affected your brain. Do you know the difference between a cop sitting on someone’s back and a MMA fighter holding down an opponent? The MMA fighter lets go the moment the opponents taps out, the referee declares it’s a TKO or if any of the fighters is in need of medical attention. By all evidence the cops hasn’t got a referee and they don’t let go even if the suspect needs medical attention.

And one thing is certain, MMA fighters are certainly better versed in what constitutes safe subduing than any cop can boast for the simple reason they have been on the receiving end many many times and they know what is safe or not, plus they can actually get disqualified for excessive violence (ie foul). Imagine that.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

I see the reality distortion field has really affected your brain. Do you know the difference between a cop sitting on someone’s back and a MMA fighter holding down an opponent?

There are so many difference I’m sure I will miss some.

Let’s see

With a cop there is a gun involved and with the MMA fighter there isn’t.
With a cop there is no backing down but an MMA fighter can quit anytime.
The cop’s opponent doesn’t have to follow the rules but the MMA fighter’s opponent does.
With a cop there is no referee to insure no one gets killed but with an MMA bout there is.
With a cop resistance can be a total surprise but with MMA it is expected.
The cop he is supposed to deescalate but the MMA fighter is supposed to fight.
The cop is unsure of his opponent’s abilities. In an MMA match both know who they’re fighting.
With a cop it can be a physical mismatch and in an MMA bout they are matched by size and ability.
Cops don’t get prizes for fighting MMA fighters do.
Cops are trying to keep someone from fleeing and MMA fighters are trying to win.
Cops are there to fight crime and MMA fighters are there to fight one another.
Cops get about 8 hours of hand to hand fighting every two years and MMA fighters train almost daily.

And, oh yes, the cop goes to jail and the MMA fighter doesn’t.

The rest of your post I essentially agree with.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

With a cop there is a gun involved and with the MMA fighter there isn’t.

And yet, in Singapore, the cops can do physical takedowns as part of their job. It should be the same in the States, or Europe, or even fucking China, but why are the cops in the US so bad at doing these damn takedowns?

With a cop there is no backing down but an MMA fighter can quit anytime.

The MMA fighter has very few fallbacks if they’re on the competition circuit.

The cop’s opponent doesn’t have to follow the rules but the MMA fighter’s opponent does.

More than one way to skin that cat. Also, part of the hazards of the job.

With a cop there is no referee to insure no one gets killed but with an MMA bout there is.

The MMA fighter also listens to “I can’t breathe”. Most cops outside of the US also do their best to listen to that.

With a cop resistance can be a total surprise but with MMA it is expected.

Job hazard. Why aren’t the American cops expecting some sort of resistance to being arrested? THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE BRIEFED ABOUT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME/REPORT.

The cop he is supposed to deescalate but the MMA fighter is supposed to fight.

The COP is supposed to use appropriate force depending on the situationo. Deescalation is preferred, of course, but very few people would blame them if they needed to take APPROPRIATE FORCE.

The cop is unsure of his opponent’s abilities. In an MMA match both know who they’re fighting.

Technically true, but a match can go either way.

With a cop it can be a physical mismatch and in an MMA bout they are matched by size and ability.

That’s mostly regulation on the MMA side. Cops, however, are supposed to be able to subdue their targets regardless of size and physical ability. It’s definitely possible,, even if it’s hard, and I’m the “physically incompetent” one.

And guess what? Cops outside of the US DO IT ALL THE TIME.

Cops don’t get prizes for fighting MMA fighters do.

Cops, however, do get protected from their mistakes. MMA fighters get shamed out of the sport for mistakes.

Cops are trying to keep someone from fleeing and MMA fighters are trying to win.

There’s more than one way to win in an MMA fight, and submissions ARE one way to do so. Technically, MMA fighters aren’t suppsoed to flee, but there’s more than one way to get a win.

Cops are there to fight crime and MMA fighters are there to fight one another.

Cops get about 8 hours of hand to hand fighting every two years and MMA fighters train almost daily.

Gee, I wonder why… And no, you can’t fall back on your tired arguments.

And, oh yes, the cop goes to jail and the MMA fighter doesn’t.

MMA fighters also rarely, if ever, have to deal with the sort of shit cops do. And it turns out that the MMA fighter CAN subdue an assailant without trying to fucking murder them.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

And yet, in Singapore, the cops can do physical takedowns as part of their job. It should be the same in the States, or Europe, or even fucking China, but why are the cops in the US so bad at doing these damn takedowns?

Singapore is where they cane people, right? It also has very little crime and it is the second safest country in the world (Japan is no. 1) so I doubt cops in Singapore do that many take downs. Cops in the US do thousands more take downs than those in Singapore. My son has done several and nobody has died.

Job hazard. Why aren’t the American cops expecting some sort of resistance to being arrested? THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE BRIEFED ABOUT THE SCENE OF THE CRIME/REPORT.
The COP is supposed to use appropriate force depending on the situationo. Deescalation is preferred, of course, but very few people would blame them if they needed to take APPROPRIATE FORCE.

Officer Rolfe (an exemplary officer with a bachelor’s degree, and training in de-escalation training) spent nearly 40 minutes deescalating with Rayshard Brooks and was calmly handcuffing Rayshard when he and his partner were thrown on their asses. What BRIEFING? What CRIME/REPORT? What are you talking about?

That’s mostly regulation on the MMA side. Cops, however, are supposed to be able to subdue their targets regardless of size and physical ability. It’s definitely possible,, even if it’s hard, and I’m the “physically incompetent” one.
And guess what? Cops outside of the US DO IT ALL THE TIME.

Due to lowering standards to replace officers that are quitting, departments are hiring more small women. A 100 pound woman is not going to be able to subdue a 250 pound man regardless of gender identification or geographical location.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Singapore is where they cane people, right? It also has very little crime and it is the second safest country in the world (Japan is no. 1) so I doubt cops in Singapore do that many take downs.

Not sure what relevance the first statement you’re trying to allude to. If you’re trying to say that the harshness of a country’s laws is a benchmark for how safe a country is and how much violence their police force has to commit, then North Korea must have the highest safety on the planet.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

You are probably physically retarded. The MMA fighters and wrestlers do it all the time. Sitting on someone’s back/chest is a very effective way of subduing and restraining someone which is why the MMA fighter used it. However if you are a cop they will put you in prison for doing it.

Meanwhile, I SAID “**Getting to the “sitting on someone’s back/chest” part to restrain an attacker is stupid HARD. **”

Stop bad-faithing, BROWNSHIRT ASSHOLE.

I’ve also said that LEOs do it all the time, in police units all over the world, EXCEPT IN AMERICA.

STOP BAD-FAITHING, TOTALITARIAN ASSHOLE.

And even in Singapore, there’s more than one way to restrain a person WITHOUT RESORTING TO CHOKEHOLDS.

Die in a fucking fire, davec. Your bootpolishing isn’t gonna save you from the thugs in blue. Jan 6 already showed us that even being one of them isn’t gonna save them if they don’t follow “orders”, ie, insurrection, if their chiefs say so.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Die in a fucking fire, davec.

No wonder you are in an echo chamber. If someone has a different point of view, you want them dead–that is a TOTALITARIAN reaction. Other views should help you make better decisions. Thinking for yourself also requires accepting you might be wrong. Stop being an Anonymous Coward, there are already too many in here.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No wonder you are in an echo chamber. If someone has a different point of view, you want them dead–that is a TOTALITARIAN reaction.

I don’t consider Techdirt an echo chamber. I don’t agree that Techdirt should take money from the Kochs OR Google, but running the site takes a ton of cash and I d9n’t wish Masnick or the team any ill will about it.

I also do not agree that it’s possible to keep criticizing the powers that be and hope they listen and violent action must be taken to force them to listen. Yes, I also get flagged for that, but that’s because the notion of violence is so abhorrent to most people, especially when it means you’re handing the powers that be excuses to ratchet up their authoritarian desires to 11 and harm the rest of the people as well. I take that L, because unlike you, I take responsibility for my actions and speech and learn accordingly.

You, on the other hand, have zero desire to stop being a brownshirted thug. And continue to spew bullshit despite the evidence.

I’m at least willing to listen to others, even if I don’t agree.

Thinking for yourself also requires accepting you might be wrong.

You first.

Stop being an Anonymous Coward, there are already too many in here.

No.

I’d rather stay one and not put myself in the fucking spotlight in my home country. Where criticism of the government is unofficially a criminal act.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No wonder you are in an echo chamber.

Your insane, unwarranted smugness aside.

Techdirt is hardly an echo chamber. I don’t agree with Techdirt taking money from the Kochs, but Mike has been transparent regarding that and any followup from the Charles Koch Foundation (none so far outside of that one time).

Techdirt frowns upon taking violent action, instead choosing to harshly criticize and provide better options. I don’t particularly agree with that, and I am convinced that the only way to get the powers that be to listen is through violent, revolutionary action. I take the Ls, knowing that, becuase I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS AND WORDS. Unlike you.

If someone has a different point of view, you want them dead–that is a TOTALITARIAN reaction.

There’s a very good reason I want you dead, and it’s not as petty as “you hold the wrong opinion”.

It’s that you continue to defend the right of the thugs in blue to not be held accountable for their violent actions. Even I rarely tell people how I really feel about these things.

And you’ve also threatened a commenter on this site. I haven’t. That’s the difference.

Other views should help you make better decisions. Thinking for yourself also requires accepting you might be wrong.

You first. And stop gaslighting.

Stop being an Anonymous Coward, there are already too many in here.

Actually, you stop being a coward and hiding behind your “trauma”. Having a name doesn’t automatically make you a better person. It makes you trackable and arrestable. Not everyone has the privilege of being protected from their mistakes to the point they get away with it.

And I’m still not gonna get a name. I know I’m not important enough, but I am a SIngapore citizen with no reputation to speak of, that that means I am pretty much a prisoner if my government actually deigns to supprress all sorts of criticism about them. This is my way of fighting back.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Techdirt frowns upon taking violent action, instead choosing to harshly criticize and provide better options. I don’t particularly agree with that, and I am convinced that the only way to get the powers that be to listen is through violent, revolutionary action. I take the Ls, knowing that, becuase I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY OWN ACTIONS AND WORDS. Unlike you.

An Anonymous Coward taking responsibility for their actions and words. Do you see the irony in that?

There’s a very good reason I want you dead, and it’s not as petty as “you hold the wrong opinion”.
It’s that you continue to defend the right of the thugs in blue to not be held accountable for their violent actions. Even I rarely tell people how I really feel about these things.

You want me dead because I don’t believe all cops are Chauvin. Yet your opinion that they are has resulted in increased crime and murders. You haven’t accomplished public safety you’re destroying it. I’m sure if you want me dead for supporting cops, you probably want cops dead even more. Well you are getting your wish and again I’m against that.

And you’ve also threatened a commenter on this site. I haven’t. That’s the difference.

Didn’t you just say you wanted me dead??? I, on the other hand have never threatened anyone on this site or anywhere else and I defy you to show me where I have.

Actually, you stop being a coward and hiding behind your “trauma”. Having a name doesn’t automatically make you a better person. It makes you trackable and arrestable. Not everyone has the privilege of being protected from their mistakes to the point they get away with it.

Don’t know what trauma you are talking about. If you are referring to living through a similar situation during the Vietnam War, it wasn’t my trauma it was theirs (the people we turned our backs on). I don’t want to see that tragedy repeated.

And I’m still not gonna get a name. I know I’m not important enough, but I am a SIngapore citizen with no reputation to speak of, that that means I am pretty much a prisoner if my government actually deigns to supprress all sorts of criticism about them. This is my way of fighting back.

So as a Singapore citizen you are afraid of the Singapore government and the Singapore police and you have been projecting that on to the American government and American cops. In the US, that’s OK. You see, I don’t like what you are saying and I don’t want you to say it, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Cops kill more White people than Black…

The Washington Post would beg to differ.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

Cops usually kill about 1100 people a year. Last year they killed 1055. 302 White, 177 Black, 78 Hispanic, 10 Other and 488 unknown. In that remember there are a million gang members playing with guns and 89 per cent are not White.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Wyrm (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I have been following this anti-cop blog by Cushing for nearly a year and I have yet to read anyone defending the police. If any of you have an opinion that doesn’t blame cops first, last and always, you haven’t expressed it.

I’ll only answer this section because I don’t feel we’ll make progress on anything else, while this one relates to my opinion.

The whole point of this blog is to denounce abuses of authority in police, politics and corporations. And occasionally denounce hasty condamnations of these entities.
For this reason, you won’t see many news where the cops have the good role. Because instances of abuse of authority, be it in the form of violence or not, should be denounced. Particularly when they are left unpunished.

The whole point of a proper police force is to enforce the law, not allow power-tripping officer to vent their frustrations, or rabid gun nuts to shoot at human targets. When this happens, it must be condemned in order to disincentivize so-called “bad apple” behavior. Otherwise, the whole barrel rots.

I’ve seen instances of good cop behavior, which I praise. Problem is, when it conflicts even remotely with bad cop behavior, the good cop is too often flushed out of the system, directly (firing the good officer) or indirectly (the good officer gets shunned by his colleagues). Instances of good cop being rewarded or protected is rare in the news. (All news, not just on techdirt.) You might say it’s because news outlet focus on the bad or inflammatory news… Well, that’s a different issue.

But there is also communication from cops themselves.
From their chiefs defending the worst of the most egregious behaviors, to officers writing op-ed to explain how they are due respect because they are armed and ready to kill, the police in general has not made a very good point of being the good guys.

And if you think that we should just respect cops because they’re entitled to it… and I can understand that might be because you want to believe in the cops in your family… you’re either blinding yourself to the reality of bad cops or you’re ready to submit to bad cops because you believe in authoritarianism.

You don’t make everyone safer just because you have more cops. Bad cops make everyone more afraid by destroying the confidence that you can call a cop to solve a situation. Or even just meet one randomly in the street without ending face first on the ground.

Respect is not due, it’s earned.
They earned it a long time ago because of effective culture messaging, through tv shows and a public that didn’t directly witness the reality of bad cops.
They lost it when omnipresent cameras allowed everyone to witness what cops do when their power is unchecked. They lost it when they distanced themselves from the community, telling (with words and actions) that their authority is holy and that they’re above the law they are supposed to enforce. Above the people they’re policing.
They can earn it back, but they’ll have to work for it by cleaning house and getting rid of the bad cops. As long as they stubbornly defend their “bad apples”, we’ll see a rotting barrel.

Anonymous Coward says:

blue lies mafia

they think just because they put on a clown suit, they deserve respect! respect is earned! when you do things to WE THE PEOPLE. you get no respect!
then we have the blue lies mafia union…. they will protect the criminals and get rid of the whistleblowers. otherwise the only other rare few times they will turn there back is when a high ranking piglet condemns one of there own!

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

new policy

a few things that need to be done at the federal level.

                          BLUE LIES MAFIA POLICY

ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE:
any time an officer is placed on administrative leave it will be UNPAID leave.
ONLY if laws, policy, civil rights, and/ or rules have NOT been violated, then they will be eligible for back pay.
IF ANY laws, policy, civil rights, and/ or rules have been violated, then NO back pay.

PENDING INVESTIGATIONS:
if an officer is being investigated for _______. the investigation whether pending, started or ended will be considered “OPEN” if they quit before any discipline is handed out. also they will NOT be able to move on to the next agency over or receive retirement funds and any other benefits until pending case is resolved.

BODY CAMS:
ALL law enforcement police, FBI, DEA, CBP, ICE and any other law enforcement agency shall have and use body cams.
body cams will be turned on prior to an incident or as soon as possible and are to NOT be turned off, muted or paused until after the conclusion of the incidence.

USE OF FORCE:
MANDATORY MINIMUMS OF 2X the max. shall be enforced upon conviction.

CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD:
shall replace internal affairs. it shall have full investigative powers.

LOCALE DAs/ POLICE:
will not be able to decide if police are not charged for there crimes.

POLICE UNION(S):
shall only be limited to negotiating pay, leave time, vacation, sick leave, benefits. anything else is NON-NEGOTIABLE.

TRAINING:
there shall be a 2yr training program. then when hired the first 2yr period is probation with no gun. then the next probation period is a year with gun after they prove themselves to be responsible. so in total it would require 5 yrs. to go from training to fully certified.

DISCIPLINE/ COMPLAINT RECORDS:
any and all complaints (founded and unfounded), discipline, suspensions shall be placed in a national database. these records are to be held from training to 20yr after retirement and/or death.

………

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davec (profile) says:

Re:

Sounds interesting. Right now the country is short about a 100 thousand cops with more cops leaving every day. It’s not working for them.

Under your plan, I’m assuming you would sign up?

Have you talked to a cop about your plan? If not, why not? You would be surprised that many support a reallocation of funding and responsibilities. Police aren’t against change, they just don’t want change that makes things worse for everyone and that is what is happening now.

What Are Police Like in Other Countries? (cfr.org)
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/how-police-compare-different-democracies?gclid=CjwKCAjw9NeXBhAMEiwAbaY4lvI9gekte4oh-8OWMVAKJMhRCMkZ0F7kiowI9kIkzrLYiNs2mzwpbhoCzMgQAvD_BwE

Anonymous Coward says:

common sense policy changes

ADMINISTRATIVE LEAVE:
any time an officer is placed on administrative leave it will be UNPAID leave.
ONLY if laws, policy, civil rights, and/ or rules have NOT been violated, then they will be eligible for back pay.
IF ANY laws, policy, civil rights, and/ or rules have been violated, then NO back pay.

PENDING INVESTIGATIONS:
if an officer is being investigated for _______. the investigation whether pending, started or ended will be considered “OPEN” if they quit before any discipline is handed out. also they will NOT be able to move on to the next agency over or receive retirement funds and any other benefits until pending case is resolved.

BODY CAMS:
ALL law enforcement police, FBI, DEA, CBP, ICE and any other law enforcement agency shall have and use body cams.
body cams will be turned on prior to an incident or as soon as possible and are to NOT be turned off, muted or paused until after the conclusion of the incidence.

USE OF FORCE:
MANDATORY MINIMUMS OF 2X the max. shall be enforced upon conviction.

CITIZEN REVIEW BOARD:
shall replace internal affairs. it shall have full investigative powers.

LOCALE DAs/ POLICE:
will not be able to decide if police are not charged for there crimes.

POLICE UNION(S):
shall only be limited to negotiating pay, leave time, vacation, sick leave, benefits. anything else is NON-NEGOTIABLE.

TRAINING:
there shall be a 2yr training program. then when hired the first 2yr period is probation with no gun. then the next probation period is a year with gun after they prove themselves to be responsible. so in total it would require 5 yrs. to go from training to fully certified.

DISCIPLINE/ COMPLAINT RECORDS:
any and all complaints (founded and unfounded), discipline, suspensions shall be placed in a national database. these records are to be held from training to 20yr after retirement and/or death.

………

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: almost a year ago

Is this your son, davec?
I’m not impressed.

This article was written nearly a year ago and if you are asking does my son share the sentiments of the officer that Cushing quotes the answer is yes. While over the last few years the publics attitudes toward the police have rebounded somewhat, the betrayal and vilification that good police officers endured will not be forgotten anytime soon.

To capsulize my view and response to the article.

As a Vietnam era veteran, I can totally relate to what they are going through. The only thing worse than winning a war is losing a war so you endure the hardships and make the sacrifices to protect those that depend on you. Many of those that depend on you can’t do your job and most wouldn’t even if they could, so they are grateful that you are willing to do it. That gratitude motivates you to carry on despite those life-threatening moments that even if you survive will leave a scar. When gratitude goes away there is no motivation beyond necessity to continue. Most cops could do any job they want so why work for the ungrateful doing a job that is “One bullet from death and one mistake from prison”.

Teachers are also making similar complaints (feel they are being vilified) and having a hard time recruiting due to a lack of respect and gratitude.

BTW 11 months (and not a day longer) my son retires.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

While over the last few years the publics attitudes toward the police have rebounded somewhat, the betrayal and vilification that good police officers endured will not be forgotten anytime soon.

When did you start? I don’t think you’ve ever met anyone halfway unless it’s someone kissing the ass of you or your kid. But it’s not surprising that all you can focus on is people angry at Chauvin, instead of being angry at Chauvin.

Most cops could do any job they want

You tried that threat before, davec, but that fish smells and nobody’s buying it.

Teachers are also making similar complaints (feel they are being vilified) and having a hard time recruiting due to a lack of respect and gratitude.

And how do you think you’re helping, when your first move is defend the Uvalde cops who sat on their thumbs and waited for the shooter to have his way with children and teachers?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Just to answer your questions

When did you start? I don’t think you’ve ever met anyone halfway unless it’s someone kissing the ass of you or your kid.

Well maybe we can agree that we need police officers. Good ones.

But it’s not surprising that all you can focus on is people angry at Chauvin, instead of being angry at Chauvin.

I focused on people who think all cops are Chauvin. And many in this forum have said just that.

You tried that threat before, davec, but that fish smells and nobody’s buying it.

Despite bonuses, raises and lowered standards every police department is having a staffing crisis. The more anti-police the city was, the worse the staffing problem. The cops are getting out as soon as they can (and doing just fine btw) and young people don’t want to be demonized by becoming a cop.

And how do you think you’re helping, when your first move is defend the Uvalde cops who sat on their thumbs and waited for the shooter to have his way with children and teachers?

I just pointed out that 5 months before Uvalde a young girl in Panorama City was accidently killed by a police officer who rushed in when all the other officers were telling him to slow down. Sometimes cops make a mistake of going too fast and sometimes of going too slow. After Uvalde cops have decided on going fast in dealing with school shootings. They will continue to do that until that results in a tragedy and then they will reassess.

Let me add one more thing. Doctors and nurses kill 250 times more people than the police do. I don’t call them racist mass murders and demand we fry them like bacon. Some have made terrible mistakes, even worse than mistaking a gun for a Taser. I don’t demand we defund medicine and lock them up. That won’t make them better doctors and nurses. That would only lead to nobody wanting to be in medicine and right now, nobody wants to be a cop.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Well maybe we can agree that we need police officers. Good ones.

Which you might have, if not for the fact that you systematically keep going down on your knees to get angry at the people angry at the bad ones.

Despite bonuses, raises and lowered standards

Gee, I cannot imagine why you’re not getting any good cops. But you don’t even need to hear it from me, it’s established from countless testimonies that the good cops speaking out against institutionalized abuse, racism and trigger-happiness get dealt with by happy little accidents or getting the sack.

Sometimes cops make a mistake of going too fast and sometimes of going too slow

But holy shit, no matter how they fuck up, you will gobble every cock you see just in case it helps people turn a blind eye, won’t you?

I don’t call them racist mass murders and demand we fry them like bacon

People don’t call doctors racists because they don’t have institutionalized racism. Certainly not on the magnitude that cops do. Cops literally go on their own private forums, make crass jokes about how many people of color they shoot, and that attitude bleeds into the work they do. It’s not like this is a secret, no matter how much you want us to magically ignore it.

I don’t demand we defund medicine and lock them up

Imagine if they did, though. You’d be sprawled out on the floor clutching your chest.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

As an Anonymous chickenshit, you are not worth a response but I will point out to others where you are wrong.

There are more than 700,000 police officers making more than 7 million arrests per year in the US, a country that has more 430 million guns. The result is between 1000 and 1100 deaths per year from those arrests and encounters.

If you think that is bad…

According to a recent study by Johns Hopkins, more than 250,000 people in the United States die every year because of medical mistakes, making it the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.

People don’t call doctors racists because they don’t have institutionalized racism. Certainly not on the magnitude that cops do.

How legacy of medical racism shapes U.S. health care today | American Medical Association (ama-assn.org)

https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/health-equity/how-legacy-medical-racism-shapes-us-health-care-today

Racism and discrimination in health care: Providers and patients – Harvard Health

https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/racism-discrimination-health-care-providers-patients-2017011611015

Racism in medicine | The BMJ
https://www.bmj.com/racism-in-medicine

and at least 1000 more articles.

Some people want to believe that all cops are Chauvin and I disagree with that. If that were true, all doctors and nurses would be worse than Chauvin.

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