Sixth Circuit Says All Animals Are Equal, But Cop Animals Are More Equal Than Others
from the this-is-what-happens-when-you-call-a-dog-an-officer dept
Cops kill pets. This is an inarguable fact. None other than the US Department of Justice has declared the (unofficial) War on Dogs to be a law enforcement epidemic. If a cop encounters a family dog while doing cop stuff, chances are the dog is going to die.
Sure, some people may claim cops encounter dogs all the time without killing them, but cops are the only ones killing (see above link) “25 to 30” pet dogs every day. Killing pets is something people normally attribute to budding mass murderers, but cops walk around every day doing this and most people still think they’re not psychopaths.
More than half the federal circuits have held that killing someone’s pet is a violation of the Fourth Amendment. But those holdings are pock-marked with loopholes. And this recent Sixth Circuit Appeals Court decision [PDF] makes it clear that when it comes down to a tussle between a cop’s dog and a regular person’s dog, the regular dog’s death will be a justified killing.
In this case, cops already had their man. The fleeing suspect had been apprehended. But the Detroit police officers believed the suspect had ditched a gun. An officer brought a K-9 “officer” out to sniff for the (alleged) weapon. This required the officer to take the dog across several people’s yards. This is what happened next.
Bodycam and security camera footage captured the events that followed. Officer Shirlene Cherry arrived at the scene with her trained canine, Roky. The White family had two dogs outside, Chino, a pit bull, and Twix, a Yorkie Terrier. Officer Cherry asked White’s daughter, Mi-Chol, to secure the dogs during the search for the weapon. Mi-Chol grabbed Chino to put him inside their home, but he escaped and ran to the front yard. Mi-Chol went inside to grab a leash. With Chino still roaming the fenced-in yard, Officer Cherry decided to take Roky to a neighboring yard to search there first. They walked along the perimeter of the wrought-iron fence toward the next yard while Chino followed them from the other side of the fence.
Then the unexpected happened. As Officer Cherry and Roky reached the corner of the yard, Chino lurched through the fence’s vertical spires and bit down on Roky’s snout. Roky yelped. Cherry turned and saw Roky trapped up against the fence with his nose in Chino’s mouth. Cherry tugged at Roky’s leash and yelled at Chino to “let go.” Nothing changed. Chino began “thrashing,” “swaying back and forth in an effort to tear” what he was holding. Unable to free Roky and afraid for the dog’s life, Cherry unholstered her gun and shot Chino once.
What is a reasonable amount of time to de-escalate a dog-on-dog altercation? That question can’t be answered. All we have is this data point, which suggests anything under six seconds is more than enough time to justify the use of deadly force to end it.
Six seconds passed between Chino’s attack and Cherry’s shot. After the shot, Chino released the now-bloodied Roky. Chino died from the shot.
Killing another animal to save a police animal is just good police work, says the Sixth Circuit. Never mind that they’re both animals. One has been elevated: it is a “police” animal, which makes it the equivalent of a fellow officer. This isn’t an underhanded exaggeration. In many places, assaulting a police dog is treated no differently than assaulting a police human. The criminal penalties are nearly identical.
When it’s dog-on-dog, only one dog is truly protected by law. And the court isn’t going to second-guess cops who see their pet being attacked by a citizen’s pet.
What of the alternatives? What of other reasonable options short of Officer Cherry’s lethal use of force? Commands for Chino to “let go” did not do the trick. Several forceful pulls on the leash still left Roky at Chino’s unmistakable beck and unrelenting call. Only the ignorant peace of a judge’s chamber would prompt the passing thought that the officer should use her hands to remove the one dog from the other. That of course would replace one hazard with another, and in the process insert the officer, never a judge, into harm’s path. Officer Cherry, it is true, had a taser, and perhaps a taser might have spared Roky and Chino. But Officer Cherry believed that the taser would serve only as a “muscle stimulant” and further “lock [Chino’s] jaw,” leaving Roky in continuing peril. Maybe; maybe not. But there were enough maybes in this unnerving situation to permit Officer Cherry to respond to these “tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving” circumstances, Graham, 490 U.S. at 397, with decisive action that increased the likelihood of saving Roky: shooting the source of the peril. Shooting an attacking dog to save a behaving police dog is not unreasonable.
In this situation, it’s only perhaps less unreasonable than other situations. In this case, the officer patrolled another yard while waiting for the pet owner to secure their dog. That was a smart move and it should not weigh against the officer.
The problem is the standard. It will always allow police dogs to be more valuable than family pets. No cop takes a dog out for a stroll. Every time a police dog is on a scene, it will be a “rapidly evolving” situation. Whether it’s an evolving threat (like the one here) or a latent threat (literally any pet located anywhere a cop and their dog happen to be), the cops will win and the people paying their salary will lose. A perceived threat to a human officer is enough to justify deadly force. A subjective threat to a cop’s dog will also justify acts of violence.
Granted, this is not an ideal case. One dog attacked another. But the standard set by the court makes it clear certain animals are more important than others. And that makes this coda ring a bit hollow.
The problem in this case is not the law’s lack of appreciation for the Whites’ love of their dog. It is that the lives of two dogs were at risk. Officer Cherry permissibly considered that reality in killing one and saving the other.
There was no perfect solution to the situation facing the officer and her K-9. But this ruling is precedent — a published opinion. And it says — once everything else is stripped away — that police can kill pets when they feel they need to without having to worry too much about being successfully sued. And if the police dog had been the aggressor and the other dog had merely responded to an attack, I doubt the judicial outcome would have changed.
Filed Under: 6th circuit, detroit, detroit pd, dogs, police, shirlene cherry
Comments on “Sixth Circuit Says All Animals Are Equal, But Cop Animals Are More Equal Than Others”
Pig shape?
I wonder what shape these animal crackers will be…
Re:
I got gun-shaped animal crackers! There’s even a Tommy gun and an AR-15.
Courts to the public: Two feet or four their lives have priority
This isn’t an underhanded exaggeration. In many places, assaulting a police dog is treated no differently than assaulting a police human. The criminal penalties are nearly identical.
And yet when cops gun down any dog they run across simply because they can departments and courts shrug and brush it aside as ‘it was just an animal, get another one if it’s such a problem’. Funny how assaulting or killing a dog is only a problem when it’s a police dog rather than one assaulted or killed by the police, I wonder why…
And if the police dog had been the aggressor and the other dog had merely responded to an attack, I doubt the judicial outcome would have changed.
One need only flip the roles to have an idea of how that would have turned out. If the police dog had been the aggressor and the homeowner had shot the other dog to protect their own assuming they survived does anyone think the court would have just shrugged it off and said the police were out of luck, it was the police dog’s fault for attacking and the homeowner was in the right for pulling the trigger?
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Nah.
The county would most likely throw the entire family in jail.
And it gets worse if they’re a minority defending their homes and families.
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Re: Re:
A black boy’s not a “minority”. A black boy’s a threat if allowed to grow up and buy a gun. That’s why we have to put them down before they can do that.
Actually, I’ve got one:
Stop using dogs for law enforcement. Full stop.
Search and rescue and cancer sniffing are great uses for dogs.
Police K-9 units are both inhumane to the dogs and to any humans or other animals they come across. Don’t use animals as weapons. Killing a dog is a common sign of psychopathy. Training a dog to be violent should be seen as the same.
And dogs aren’t as easily controlled as cops like to pretend. Police dogs will bite cops. Police dogs won’t always let go when commanded. And they shouldn’t be used to restrain suspects in the first place.
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This seems to be the best option but if they insist on using dogs then the officer could at the very least not let the dog cop too close to the fence where untrained dogs unrelated to the police activity are. The fact that the dog was close enough to be bitten by the other dog seems to me very poor judgement and that the police department should instruct their officers better in these regards.
Re: Re:
This is pretty much what i was going to note.
It was hardly an emergency, just looking for evidence, granted that it is potentially dangerous if it actually existed and was found by someone incompetent or violent.
Sixth Circuit holds that even police dogs have more rights to live than people of color.
Re: wrong!
they have MORE rights then any NONcop citizen! and the blue lies mafia has no problem telling you that!
Re: Re: 🙄
Says the guy who supports a government coup based on nothing but lies.
Re: Re: Re:
Because there’s only ever one individual behind the AC badge? How did you reach that conclusion?
Re: Re: Re:2
Oh my bad, you were referring to policemen. Sorry, I thought you were talking about democrats.
Re: Re: Re:3
So you do think there’s only one individual behind the AC badge. Maybe comment again when your critical thinking skills are up to the task?
I don’t like any animal being shot for doing nothing but following it’s instincts and being an animal. I especially hate that a lot of police seem to be so terrified of dogs they just shoot them because they don’t understand canine body language. I ESPECIALLY despise that this officer in particular doesn’t seem to know canine body language and did not wait for the owner to restrain their animal before bringing their own near it. It would not have changed anything to simply wait 5 minutes for the dog to be restrained and taken back indoors.
I have a pit. Okay yes, making him stop biting anything is very very difficult. So I try to be as responsible as possible. Because I know that a fence, any fence, is not that much of an obstacle to a large breed dog that is being territorial. Especially with another animal involved. He’s a sweetheart of a pupper. He’s my buddy. But I respect his strength and aggression. I do not leave him unattended in my backyard. I do not invite guests into the house without securing him. He is an animal, he does not speak human. Training can only do so much and at some point if you do not respect what it can do, training will fail. And when it does, tragedy happens. This was entirely avoidable, but I cannot lay the blame at the feet of the animal owner who was trying to be responsible. The officer should have known better, she works with a dog known for its bite strength every single day. This is entirely on her. The court is wrong.
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So you have a problem with police killing pets, but not women killing the innocent baby inside them?
Re: How far does that contempt for bodily automony go?
Got a quick question for you: Should blood and organ donation be optional or legally mandatory?
Re:
So, you have no problem with police killing pets because you want to focus on people removing an unwanted parasite from inside them as though that’s murder? I’ll whisper the name of a commonly used ‘abortifacient’: (anthelmintic drugs).
Re:
… hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
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Wrong. Many, many people recognize the basic scientific and moral reality that an unborn child is a unique human being with human rights, and it’s not just “religious” people either:
If you ask when and under what circumstances abortion should be legal, a majority of American women will disagree with the no-limits abortion policy supported by Planned Parenthood, the Democratic Party platform, and the Court’s Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton decisions.
Gallup’s 2020 poll, for example, found that 51 percent of women think abortion should be legal in “only a few” circumstances or in no circumstances. Gallup has also found that just 26 percent of women (compared to 31 percent of men) think abortion should be generally legal in the second trimester of pregnancy, and only 12 percent want it to be legal in the third.
“That’s a religious view, isn’t it?” asked Justice Sonia Sotomayor during the Dobbs hearing. She was referring to the pro-life view. The implication was probably that, because it’s religious, this view shouldn’t be reflected in our laws.
Yet the pro-life position is about justice, not faith or dogma. Opposition to killing unborn humans is no more inherently “religious” than opposition to killing teenagers. Such opposition is supported by empirical science, which shows that embryos and fetuses are living members of our species, and by the principle that all human beings have human rights.
“Are there secular philosophers and bioethicists who take the position that the rights of personhood begin at conception?” asked Justice Samuel Alito, jumping in to correct Sotomayor’s suggestion. Yes, there are. The group Secular Pro-Life estimates, based on polling data, that some 13 million Americans who oppose abortion have no religious affiliation.
Many pro-lifers are religious, of course, and many are influenced and motivated by their religious convictions. But that fact no more excludes their views from consideration than it excludes the views of those motivated by faith to fight poverty or human trafficking.
So tell me: do all human lives matter, or only some? Because that is what this issue is really about.
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How much more or less does the life of a young girl impregnated by rape matter when compared to the life of the fetus she’s carrying?
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Argumentum ad populum. While more people in the US think abortion should be legal than illegal, it doesn’t matter how many people believe something. It’s a useless claim that doesn’t determine factual reality.
Roe v. Wade specifically had a viability limit, so you’re factually wrong here.
More than 99% of abortions are performed before the 3rd trimester, so you’re arguing against a statistical anomaly.
90% of abortions are performed by the 12th week, well before viability, before the fetus has cognition and sentience. You’re arguing against a woman taking pills to end a pregnancy with a fetus smaller than a plum at 12 weeks or earlier by pretending everyone who supports choice wants 9 month fully formed fetuses terminated five minutes prior to delivery. This is a disingenuous argument.
Teenagers have extra-womb viability, sentience, and cognition and are legally recognized as full persons.
And 13 million random people don’t have a right to dictate human rights to the other 317 million.
The lives and human rights of women matter, including their body autonomy. In the same respect that you cannot be forced to donate a kidney to someone else, a woman cannot be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy. Full stop.
Re: Re: Re:2
Roe v. Wade specifically had a viability limit…
It was a trimester limit, actually. It was Planned Parenthood v. Casey that created the viability limit.
Re: Re: Re:3
Yeah, I often get those two mixed up and had even googled it to be clear before I posted but alas some google results failed me. Some actually say viability was used in Roe, but they mean it was loosely applied via the trimester schedule.
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If a fetus can’t live independently of the body of the carrying parent, then it’s not life, human or otherwise. A fertilized bird’s egg is life, a fertilized mammal’s egg is not.
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So tell me: do all human lives matter, or only some?
Only some.
For example, you pieces of shit who want to deny women bodily autonomy I can certainly do without.
The RHR’s who thought COVID wasn’t real are another group that the world would be better off without.
The religious morons who subscribe to an adult version of Santa Claus we can REALLY do without.
Want more? Cause I got them.
Re: Re: Re: Bullshit
“Yet the pro-life position is about justice, not faith or dogma.”
Then why is it only you religious nutjob harass women getting family planning care and murder doctors?
Re: Re: Re:
Okay, so when I’m masturbating, I’m committing genocide because sperm are sapient beings, then.
Note to anyone reading, sperm are not sapient beings, and even freaking plants are sentient, ie, responds to stimuli.
Re: Re: Re:
I know the god fucking damn religious argument. And I respect it, since at least that argument is honest and at least has considerations for the victims of rape.
The Koch-backed “Evangelical” argument has zero considerations for rape victims, is likely a NeoNazi argument for an ethnostate, AND would likely hurt even Italians, Irish and any “non-Anglo, non-Protestant” white people of BOTH physical sexes.
So kindly report yourself to the FBI for being a fucking NeoNazi.
Re: Re: Re:
You are either stupid, or a liar. Arguing anti-abortion is ALWAYS religious.
Total bullshit–the common people, pagan’s “heathen’s” and other tribes all condoned the practice–or simply left women to do what is best for themselves, and many leaders from Greco-Roman times forward have condoned abortion for various reasons. The anti-abortion stance is EXACTLY the religious/moral argument, and always has been.
Abortion is documented on Egyptian papyrus–circa 1500, and infanticide and abortion have ALWAYS had a place in the religous/moral imperatives of heads of state, and their self-interests, whether Pharaoh, or the Caesar’s, they have twisted religion into the issue in every generation–again, for strictly selfish purposes(taxation, moral superiority over the “heathens,” that they had enslaved, feeding bodies to armies, etc.).
So
Maybe, cite to reality, instead of some emotion packed wall of gibberish.
Re:
We also don’t have a problem with keeping religious beliefs out of politics and public health. It’s a quite religious description of a pile of cells with no history at all you gave there so your point is irrelevant.
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Re: Re:
:Before we can know how to treat unborn children (an ethical question), we must know what they are biologically. This is a question of science.
Here’s what science tells us about the unborn.
Why the unborn is a human being
When a sperm successfully fertilizes an oocyte (egg), a new cell, called a zygote, is generated by their union. The zygote represents the first stage in the life of a human being. This individual, if all goes well, develops through the embryonic (first eight weeks) and fetal (eight weeks until birth) periods and then through infancy, childhood, and adolescence before reaching adulthood.
Four characteristics of the unborn human (the zygote, embryo, or fetus) are important:
Distinct. The unborn has a DNA and body distinct from her mother and father. She develops her own arms, legs, brain, nervous system, heart, and so forth.
Living. The unborn meets the biological criteria for life. She grows by reproducing cells. She turns nutrients into energy through metabolism. And she can respond to stimuli.
Human. The unborn has a human genetic signature. She is also the offspring of human parents, and humans can only beget other humans.
Organism. The unborn is an organism (rather than a mere organ or tissue)—an individual whose parts work together for the good of the whole. Guided by a complete genetic code (46 chromosomes), she needs only the proper environment and nutrition to develop herself through the different stages of life as a member of the species.
These facts about the unborn are established by the science of embryology and developmental biology. They are confirmed by embryology texts, scientific journals, and other relevant authorities.
“Human development begins at fertilization when a sperm fuses with an oocyte to form a single cell, a zygote,” explains the textbook The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology. “This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
“The development of a human being begins with fertilization,” notes Langman’s Medical Embryology, “a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
The scientific evidence, then, shows that the unborn is a living individual of the species Homo sapiens, the same kind of being as us, only at an earlier stage of development. Each of us was once a zygote, embryo, and fetus, just as we were once infants, toddlers, and adolescents.
Re: Re: Re:
When does the pregnancy remove the personhood of the carrier?
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Re: Re: Re:2
It doesn’t. But when will you acknowledge the personhood of the unborn child? Because if it IS a person (and it is) then killing him or her is wrong regardless of the circumstances except in the extremely rare scenario where the mother’s life needs to be saved, which is far less common than pro-choice supporters make it seem.
In the Dobbs hearing, the lawyer representing the abortion industry called pro-life laws a “fundamental deprivation of … liberty” and a violation of “a woman’s right to make this decision.”
There’s a big problem with such appeals: freedom per se isn’t at issue in the abortion debate. Everyone, on both sides, thinks freedom is important, and everyone also thinks that people shouldn’t use freedom to infringe on the rights of others.
We have the right to decide whether or not to go to college, or to take a certain job, or to have children. But we don’t have the right to get rid of our annoying roommates, or our unfair bosses, or our expensive and life-changing toddlers. We don’t have the right to do things that are unjust or that harm innocent people. If abortion is that sort of action, then we don’t have a right to abortion. If unborn humans have human rights—like roommates and bosses and toddlers—then those rights deserve respect. The issue, then, isn’t freedom at all, but whether unborn children matter like the rest of us do.
Abortion defenders often appeal to a specific form of freedom—bodily autonomy. Pregnant women, they say, have a right to do what they want with what’s inside their bodies. But here, too, freedom isn’t really the issue. In the Dobbs arguments, Justice Clarence Thomas pointed to a case involving a pregnant woman who ingested drugs that caused harm to her unborn child. Does a woman’s right to bodily autonomy justify this harm, Thomas asked the lawyer?
Of course not. Bodily autonomy is important, but it must respect the bodies and rights of others. If unborn humans really count, then our autonomy can’t come at the expense of their lives.
https://www.mccl.org/post/everyone-is-talking-about-abortion-but-these-rhetorical-ploys-miss-the-mark
Re: Re: Re:3
Under the law in states with bans on abortion, the personhood of a pregnant person ends at the point where such bans kick in. That person loses some of their bodily autonomy because the law says they’re no longer allowed that autonomy once they’re pregnant/at a certain stage of the pregnancy.
If you want my personal beliefs: Abortion is a medical procedure that should be an available option for every pregnant person up to the end of the second trimester. After that point, abortions should ideally only happen if one is needed to save the life of the pregnant person. At no point should the law punish any pregnant person for having an abortion (one way or another) or any doctor for performing an abortion. No pregnant person should ever be investigated by law enforcement for a miscarriage.
Yes or no: Should a ten-year-old girl who was raped (and subsequently impregnated) by a family member be forced by law, under threat of prosecution for murder, to carry her rapist’s child to term? Remember: Under the logic of your expressed beliefs, a fetus conceived by someone raping a child is still a person and the abortion of that fetus would be murder.
Re: Re: Re:4
Allow me a moment to clarify something I said:
I believe abortion shouldn’t be available after the second trimester unless one is necessary to save the life of the pregnant person. My comments could’ve and should’ve made that position clearer; I regret the error.
Re: Re: Re:5
And third trimester abortions are extremely rare and typically only happen due to an unviable fetus or a threat to the life of the woman. Sometimes the threat is indirect, like a pregnant woman getting diagnosed with cancer late in the pregnancy and having to abort so she can start life-saving treatment. Forced birthers arguing against third trimester abortions is a strawman and a red herring. They want to outlaw 6 week abortions using arguments against terminating a 9 month old fetus five minutes before delivery, which doesn’t happen.
Re: Re: Re:3
But when will you acknowledge the personhood of the unborn child?
I won’t. Because it’s bullshit.
But we don’t have the right to get rid of our annoying roommates, or our unfair bosses, or our expensive and life-changing toddlers.
None of which exist solely within the womb of a mother.
Does a woman’s right to bodily autonomy justify this harm, Thomas asked the lawyer?
Does the fact that what directly affects one affects the other imply a distinct person?
Re: Re: Re:4
I won’t. Because it’s bullshit.
It’s worse than bullshit it’s irrelevant as even if you conceded that every unborn child was a full citizen with all the rights thereof from the moment of conception no person has a right to use the body of another without their consent.
If I need blood I don’t get to force someone else to donate, even if not getting blood will kill me.
If I need an organ transplant I don’t get to go shopping for the recently deceased looking for a match unless they agreed to be an organ donor before death, even if not getting that organ will kill me.
The dead have more bodily autonomy in a system of forced-birth than pregnant women do, and to call that ‘kinda messed up’ is a whopper of an understatement.
Re: Re: Re:5
even if you conceded that every unborn child was a full citizen with all the rights thereof
Except if we’re counting occupants in the HOV lane…
https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/11/us/pregnant-woman-hov-lane/index.html
Re: Re: Re:6
TBH, the anti-reproductive rights states were literally asking for that to happen. They can’t expect to declare the unwanted embryos of pregnant people to be people and not have ecpectant parents declaring the same about their fetuses.
Re: Re: Re:7
I agree – and the HOV lane is the tip of the iceberg.
Like claiming an unborn thing as a dependent from the moment of conception for income tax purposes…
Or forcing the dad to contribute to child support from the moment of conception, instead of once it’s born…
Or when you go to a movie and they charge you for two adults and one (unborn) child…
Watching them flounder to explain why personhood is different in those instances is going to be comical as all fuck. They got the simple thing done in getting Roe overturned. Now let’s see how they do with their unintended consequences.
Re: Re: Re:8
Honestly, taxes should be more straightforward already, but I wouldn’t have a problem with a pregnancy tax deduction, not even requiring fetuses to be seen as persons or children. We should also mandate paid maternity leave for at least six months (preferably a year). But that’s a pipe dream in a country where conservatives want to force pregnancy while ensuring higher rates of maternal death and poverty and privation.
Re: Re: Re:3 But it's all you got
Citing other religious wack-jobs as an source isn’t really helping your cause bro.
Re: Re: Re:2
o.O You… don’t live in an anti-abortion state, do you?
Re: Re: Re:
None of that matters. You cannot legally or even morallly force someone to provide life support for anyone else even if that individual would die.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Wrong. All of what I posted matters. It’s not about providing life support, and even you know it. If an unborn child is a human being with human rights, that by default includes the right to not be murdered. Justice demands that life be protected. It’s illegal to murder anyone else, so why should the unborn be an exception? Are you really so afraid to acknowledge their basic humanity?
Re: Re: Re:3
At what point do the rights of the fetus override the rights (and the bodily autonomy) of the person carrying that fetus?
Re: Re: Re:4
In the real world: Never.
In the world hallucinated by the mentally incompetent, morally evil abortion banners: irrelevant.
Re: Re: Re:4
As soon as is convenient for their busted ass world view. Cause a huge percentage of nut job protesters have also gone through the back door of the very clinic they are protesting.
Re: Re: Re:3
Every woman whose rights you’re arguing against was once an unborn child. So you’re inherently contradicting yourself. If unborn children have full human rights, then women do too. You can’t be forced to provide the use of your body, blood, and organs to keep someone else alive.
Re: Re: Re:3
It’s not about providing life support…
Since a fetus can’t survive outside the uterus before 20+ weeks of gestation, over half of the pregnancy is very much about life support and nothing else.
Re: Re: Re:3
It’s not about providing life support, and even you know it.
Then why would the mother’s decision matter? If it doesn’t need life support, it isn’t a person.
Re: Re: Re:3
Got another quick pair of questions for you to ignore: If I need a blood donation right now or I will die, and a person passing by is the only match available in time do I have a legal and moral right to force them to donate blood, and/or does their refusal to provide blood for whatever reason make them a murderer?
In fact, let’s take this a little further. Say I needed a transfusion or I will die, the stranger passing by is the only available match and they agree to donate. The prep is done, the needle has gone in and the blood is starting to flow but for whatever reason they change their mind. Do and should they have a right to stop the procedure, given I will die if they do so, and should they be treated/labeled as a murderer if they do so?
Re: Re: Re:3 It can't be because it contradicts your worldview and you are too scard, stupid, plum ignorant to accept that basic fact.
“It’s not about providing life support, and even you know it.”
Why do you nutjobs insist in ignoring basic biology?
Re: Re: Re:
You’re overcomplicating the issue. The fetus is human because it is a development stage of human growth. Contrary to the tabloids and folk myths, human women can’t get pregnant with non-human fetuses. So of course it’s human.
The problem is that you’re using language loosely. “Human being” is typically used as a synonym for “person,” which an unviable fetus lacking cognition and sentience wouldn’t be.
A zygote, an embryo, and a fetus are stages of development, but there’s a distinction between the stages. All three can still be naturally miscarried or die in the womb and be stillborn. Until around 25 weeks, they’re not viable outside the womb, and even the ones that survive premature birth at that stage can have significant quality of life issues and disabilities.
Most abortions occur before fetuses have sentience, cognition, or extra-womb viability. It’s the equivalent of pulling an acorn out of the ground, not the equivalent, as you would argue, of cutting down a tree.
Can you drive a car that hasn’t been built yet?
Can you live in a house that is still just a pile of lumber at a construction site?
You fundamentally understand the distinction between stages of development, but you argue against a distinction.
Try eating some cake that is just a bowl of unmixed, unbaked flour, salt, butter, sugar, and water and get back to me about how a clump of cells the size of a plum is the exact same thing as a born baby drawing breath and no longer needing to rely on its biological mother’s body. (Babies can survive after birth on support from others, formula or borrowed milk, which is what happens when mothers die in child birth – which happens at an alarming rate in a supposedly first world country like the US, but you’re all focused on forcing births, not health care for a born baby or the woman).
Re: Re: Re:2
Contrary to the tabloids and folk myths, human women can’t get pregnant with non-human fetuses.
You mean Bat Boy’s not real? o_O
Re: Re: Re: *What* science?
“Zygote” is actually the term for a spermatazoon (sperm) or an ovum (egg). The term for the two combined and the bundle of cells that results from the union is “blastocyst”.
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Nope. The ‘zygote’ is the fertilized egg; the spermatozoon and ovum are ‘gametes’. The ‘blastocyst’ is the state after the zygote begins mitosis. In turn, it’s not usually called an ’embryo’ until at least implantation, or gastrulation and formation of the neural crease. The threshold for calling it a ‘foetus’ is usually the beginning of bone calcification and the establishment of a regular heart rhythm at about seven weeks. (Yes, smooth muscle cells are pulsatile right from after they differentiate, but at the early stages of embryogenesis they’re poorly synchronized).
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Whoever you are pretending to be me, you’re wrong. I won’t even add anything to correct you because ke9tv got there before I could (super long shift with even longer recovery time).
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What you claim “science says” has little bearing on anything. Thanks.
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“Living,” and “individual” are two separate things–a zygote and a female are ONE individual, until that zygote becomes a baby and is willingly birthed by an individual.
Dogs were also once zygotes–anything to say about that article above–or dogs, cats, other species, etc. having the rights of zygotes?
And really–what makes humans so special anyways? Riiiight. “g-d.” Total circularity with you people.
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An unborn child is NOT a pile of cells no matter what you want to believe. That’s disingenuous, dishonest, and not based in science. Do some research on embryology if you have the courage to be wrong.
Before we can know how to treat unborn children (an ethical question), we must know what they are biologically. This is a question of science.
Here’s what science tells us about the unborn.
When a sperm successfully fertilizes an oocyte (egg), a new cell, called a zygote, is generated by their union. The zygote represents the first stage in the life of a human being. This individual, if all goes well, develops through the embryonic (first eight weeks) and fetal (eight weeks until birth) periods and then through infancy, childhood, and adolescence before reaching adulthood.
Four characteristics of the unborn human (the zygote, embryo, or fetus) are important:
Distinct. The unborn has a DNA and body distinct from her mother and father. She develops her own arms, legs, brain, nervous system, heart, and so forth.
Living. The unborn meets the biological criteria for life. She grows by reproducing cells. She turns nutrients into energy through metabolism. And she can respond to stimuli.
Human. The unborn has a human genetic signature. She is also the offspring of human parents, and humans can only beget other humans.
Organism. The unborn is an organism (rather than a mere organ or tissue)—an individual whose parts work together for the good of the whole. Guided by a complete genetic code (46 chromosomes), she needs only the proper environment and nutrition to develop herself through the different stages of life as a member of the species.
These facts about the unborn are established by the science of embryology and developmental biology. They are confirmed by embryology texts, scientific journals, and other relevant authorities.
“Human development begins at fertilization when a sperm fuses with an oocyte to form a single cell, a zygote,” explains the textbook The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology. “This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.”
“The development of a human being begins with fertilization,” notes Langman’s Medical Embryology, “a process by which the spermatozoon from the male and the oocyte from the female unite to give rise to a new organism, the zygote.”
The scientific evidence, then, shows that the unborn is a living individual of the species Homo sapiens, the same kind of being as us, only at an earlier stage of development. Each of us was once a zygote, embryo, and fetus, just as we were once infants, toddlers, and adolescents.
A mere pile of cells could never do all that an unborn child does. That description is just an excuse to avoid looking at yourself and your worldview with an honest eye and an open mind that’s willing to be wrong.
Comparison to body parts
Many people note that human organs, tissues, and cells (including the sperm and egg) are living and genetically human. But merely being alive and human doesn’t make them human beings. Neither, the argument goes, does it make the unborn a human being.
The difference, however, is that the unborn is a whole organism—an individual member of the species—and other cells and tissues are mere parts. So the unborn isn’t just living and human (in the adjective sense of those words); she’s a life and a human (in the noun sense). None of us was ever a kidney or a skin cell or a sperm cell. But each of us was once an embryo.
Lack of unity
Some people think that the cells of a very early embryo are too unspecialized or insufficiently unified for the embryo to count as an individual human being. The embryo, they say, is more akin to a mass or ball of cells.
From the zygote stage forward, however, the unborn human clearly exhibits the molecular composition and behavior characteristic of a self-integrated and self-directed organism rather than a mere collection of cells. That’s why she can go on to develop the specialized tissues and organs that she does.
“From the moment of sperm-egg fusion,” concludes embryologist Maureen L. Condic, a professor at the University of Utah School of Medicine, in a detailed scientific analysis, “a human zygote acts as a complete whole, with all the parts of the zygote interacting in an orchestrated fashion to generate the structures and relationships required for the zygote to continue developing towards its mature state.”
https://www.mccl.org/post/2017/12/20/the-unborn-is-a-human-being-what-science-tells-us-about-unborn-children
Do you really want to say that only some humans matter and not others? Which is what racists and sociopaths across history have believed? Or are you willing to admit that every human life matters?
Think about this: if an unborn child is just a pile of cells, as you say, then why do over 78% of women who see an ultrasound of this supposed “pile of cells” choose not to go through with abortion? Because it shows them the truth you don’t want to accept – that the unborn child IS a unique living being with the same human rights as you and I.
In most cases, when ultrasounds are performed, women are not shown the images unless they specifically ask to see them, and sometimes not even then. Numerous former abortion providers have attested to this, including Dr. Joseph Randall, who was quoted saying:
“They [the women] are never allowed to look at the ultrasound because we knew that if they so much as heard the heart beat, they wouldn’t want to have an abortion.”
I think you’re afraid to consider what I’m saying because of the implications involved, that if you allow yourself to accept that your reasoning about this aspect of your worldview may be flawed, it may mean that others are as well, leading to an evaluation of the entire thing and a realization that it might not be as solid as you believe. And that truth, I think, is what really scares you.
Oh, and speaking of religion, being pro-life isn’t about that. It’s about justice:
“That’s a religious view, isn’t it?” asked Justice Sonia Sotomayor during the Dobbs hearing. She was referring to the pro-life view. The implication was probably that, because it’s religious, this view shouldn’t be reflected in our laws.
Yet the pro-life position is about justice, not faith or dogma. Opposition to killing unborn humans is no more inherently “religious” than opposition to killing teenagers. Such opposition is supported by empirical science, which shows that embryos and fetuses are living members of our species, and by the principle that all human beings have human rights.
“Are there secular philosophers and bioethicists who take the position that the rights of personhood begin at conception?” asked Justice Samuel Alito, jumping in to correct Sotomayor’s suggestion. Yes, there are. The group Secular Pro-Life estimates, based on polling data, that some 13 million Americans who oppose abortion have no religious affiliation.
Many pro-lifers are religious, of course, and many are influenced and motivated by their religious convictions. But that fact no more excludes their views from consideration than it excludes the views of those motivated by faith to fight poverty or human trafficking.
https://www.mccl.org/post/everyone-is-talking-about-abortion-but-these-rhetorical-ploys-miss-the-mark
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At what point should a pregnant person be required by law to carry their pregnancy to term?
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You’re functionally arguing that the lives of human women don’t matter except as brood mares. If humans matter, then women matter.
And if every human life matters to you, I’m sure you’re voting for elected officials who support universal health care, universal basic income, free higher education, job training, paid maternity leave, and a lot of other social programs that promote human life, right? Right? Oh, of course not. You wouldn’t want your taxes to go to any of that stuff!
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Shit, I’d just like to see states with an abortion ban also be as fervent at abolishing the death penalty.
https://www.mic.com/articles/84869/the-most-anti-abortion-and-pro-death-penalty-states-have-something-baffling-in-common
Not that I expect these dicktards to have any consistency.
Any of the pro-life people care to comment on this?
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My husband and I vehemently disagree on abortion. But I do respect his position because he is consistently pro life, as in he is against the death penalty, war, and euthanasia/ assisted suicide (which I also disagree). But I’m pretty sure I’ve only met maybe one other person who is also consistent with this view among his friends and acquaintances, so it’s not common. He does have a bit of a vigilante streak, he seems to think it’s just the government that can’t be trusted to carry out the death penalty, as if vigilantes are some how more capable of determining justice (they are not!).
I also can respect his stance, though disagree, because he has made the effort to understand how Plan B actually works, that an ectopic is absolutely not viable and life threatening, and is in favor of making birth control much more available and affordable.
But the nub of the argument is that I see a difference between how we define a person versus a human in this context. I think he has an overly romanticized idea of a fetus, that renders it far more capable of the human experience than it actually is. He’s definitely been influenced by years of right wing propaganda, but he really believes in his heart that an embryo is the same as a fetus, as a newborn, as a toddler as a teenager. Occasionally he will try some disingenuous argument that paints me as some kind of monster, but I don’t back down and make him admit that he knows that’s not true and I’m not his political opponent to attack. Some times we need reminders to fight fair; that while we can draw on personal experiences to make a point, we cannot attack one another personally. If we can’t stick to that, and sometimes we can’t (yes, I am guilty of the occasional inappropriate talking point too) then we end the discussion.
Arguments between people who love each other, who know each other, are not going to be the same as those between members of the public. But we have definitely influenced one another on a variety of subjects in ways that public discourse has not.
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Do some research on embryology…
I have. It formed part of my medical training.
…if you have the courage to be wrong.
Like you?
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Let me just say that since you keep linking to a Minnesota right to life cult, I’m assuming you live there.
I don’t live there.
As such, the state I’m in does not subscribe to the same philosophy that you do.
You got what you wanted – the states are deciding.
Mine decided you’re full of shit.
So take this stuff and fuck off with it. No need for your preaching. Just take care of Minnesota and leave the rest of us the fuck alone.
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Can I be forced to provide a kidney, or blood, or any other part of my body to save someone else’s life?
If not, then why can someone be forced to provide a womb?
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As soon as you link to nutjobs that are happy for people to die from internal bleeding caused by a ruptured fallopian tube as your source, you’ve already lost the argument.
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To be honest, I wasn’t going to provide people with that mental image (it’s horrible watching a 14-year-old child die in pain), but thank you for making the point I otherwise couldn’t.
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So you have a problem with police killing pets, but not women killing the innocent baby inside them?
Yeah – no problem at all about women killing the ‘baby’ inside them. To be completely honest, I prefer the company of my dog over most people, especially assholes who think women don’t deserve bodily autonomy.
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“False equivalency, ten yard penalty repeat second down!”
–but–
The gun wasn’t going anywhere, the scene was secure.
The officer controlling the police dog could have waited until the other animal was re-secured.
The officer had plenty of time to move the police dog away from the fence until that happened.
The officer used VERY bad judgment before the other dog attacked, but once the other dog attacked, shooting was the best option to save her partner quickly.
If the officer handling the police dog was trained on how animals react, she would have waited. Pit bull or not, all dogs are territorial.
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There is also the question of whether the cop was being aggressive towards the dog owner, as that can trigger a dogs instincts to protect the pack.
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They’re a cop, so that’s definitely not in question.
How about the officer being a responsible dog owner, and keeping her dog away from the fence and a potentially aggressive dog. Having her dog on the other side, on a short leash would have avoided the situation, and is what many responsible dog owner would do.
News: Officer Performs Well and Appropriately
I’ve read many accounts of police unjustifiably shooting non-aggressive family pets, this is not one of them!
I re-read the story multiple times thinking I somehow confused the aggressor, based upon the comments, I didn’t.
A dangerously aggressive dog bites through a fence. Kudos to the police officer!
She handled the situation with surprising constraint and composure. I’d have shot the dog too!
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There are ways of deescalating dog fights and attacks without killing the animal (pull them by their rear legs). But this would need a few more seconds than the 6 that were the time the cop took to shoot after the attack started. Dunno, cops should have the ability to assess the situation better and should not go shooting at the first opportunity.
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Dunno, cops should have the ability to assess the situation better and should not go shooting at the first opportunity.
TBH, this cop had plenty of time to assess the situation, since there were no exigent circumstances, but she chose not to make the most of her opportunity.
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Except for putting her dog in danger by not keeping it away from a potentially aggressive dog protecting its territory. There was no need to let her dog walk close to the fence, when having it on her other side would have kept it safe.
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I’d have shot the dog too!
Would you also have taken your dog into a situation that endangered it and practically guaranteed that you’d have to shoot another dog? If not, you didn’t read the article that thoroughly.
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Did the cop trigger the dogs aggression, by being aggressive towards its owner?
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That’s a moot point. The dog’s owner had already asked for time to secure her pet, which was sufficient indication that he could be aggressive towards strange dogs when in his own home. Not all dogs are like that, but plenty enough are that the cop should have listened and acceded to the request rather than just beginning the search next door in close proximity to the dog.
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You’re as much an idiot as she is, then. Nice work on reaching this level.
What would you do?
Let’s argue for the moment, that the officer did not have a firearm.
What would she have done then?
…now do that next time.
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Even better, if she didn’t have a dog, it wouldn’t have happened at all.
the pet attacked first
In this case its irrelevant that it was a police dog. If a dog attacks a person or another animal for no reason it needs to be put down. Maybe it thought its reasons were valid, but they werent.
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Put down? For anything anyone wants to call an attack? No matter that they put themselves in a position to be attacked by an obviously upset dog?
So, kill all police dogs, problem solved i guess.
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the pet attacked first
After his owner asked for time to secure her dog to keep the police animal safe. This is on the cop regardless of any other factors.
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I’m having trouble following your logic. Either the dog had a reason to attack, or it didn’t. And you can’t apply human logic to animal behavior.
This doesn’t appear to be entirely unprovoked, the dog gave plenty of warning by barking and following them along the fence. That handler put her dog at risk by ignoring those obvious warnings. That handler created the danger by failing to wait for the dog to be secured inside before doing anything. That dog could have potentially grabbed a human reaching for a gun located on the ground near the fence, so the only intelligent thing to do was wait for the owner to secure her dog before going anywhere near the yard.
I’m also curious as to whether the police dog was ignoring the dog menacing (& rightfully so, it was protecting it’s family and home) on the other side of the fence, because I doubt it. I would speculate the police dog was also exhibiting signs of aggression in response, which were foolishly ignored. The blame lays on the handler and anyone who instructed her to begin the search before the pet was secured.
But I don’t know if there were any other feasible options once the pet latched onto the working dog, especially if was beginning to thrash. I would need to see the exact circumstances before I could speculate with any confidence. And I rarely give that deference to an officers judgement, especially when it is obviously so questionable in the first place. It was just so obviously preventable.
Even if the cop resorted to alternative means to separate the dogs,and was successful, it’s still likely the pet would have been euthanized for the attack. It’s not fair, I think the pet was being protective. But it’s the most likely outcome.
I love animals. I’m more of a cat person, but I love dogs too. And when I go outside with my child, I always make sure that I get permission from the owner before approaching their dog, no matter the size or demeanor. Obviously I don’t want my child hurt, but I also don’t want to put a dog in a situation where they are punished for acting like a dog. It’s not fair to anyone, human or animal.
Stupid humans
Any person who shoots a dog that is not attacking the shooter should spend the rest of their life being shot daily in non-critical locations.
I have zero respect for those that murder animals. Sport hunters, Police officers, psychopaths. (The latter two occasionally overlap).
It’s one thing to hunt for substance. Another entirely to kill in cold blood. A simple baton to the head would have caused a release. The officer chose deadly force when it wasn’t necessary.
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For a cop, deadly force is always necessary. Why do you think we restrict police access to firearms here in the UK?
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Actually, most of the UK police do not want to be armed, and those who are armed rarely use their guns.
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whooosh
That’s for sure–pit bulls are an entirely separate category of stupid pet’s and even more stupid pet owners–like Rot’s, it’s a dog of war, as are Shepherds.
Tired of reading stories in the news about these dogs killing kids and old ladies–though I chuckle EVERY TIME some “Adopt-A-Pit-Bull” owner gets mauled to death by their adoptee.
Shoot stupid pet owners, that would be a good start. Pit bull owners twice.
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Shoot stupid pet owners, that would be a good start.
I wasn’t aware you had any pets. Otherwise, you are right for once: you should be shot. The sooner the better.
Hard to Criticize
Viewing the facts
I have to say that, in the cop’s position, I would have done the same thing to protect my dog. This is not a bad cop shooting a pet. This is a good dog owner protecting against an obvious and extreme hazard.
Distinguish cops killing pets without real provocation. This is not such a case.
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The cop has seen that the dog was territorial, and difficult to control, and then provokes it more by walking her dog next to the fence, rather than on the other side of her body.
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Distinguish cops killing pets without having created the provocation. This is not such a case.
FTFY. YW.
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Distinguish cops killing pets without having created the provocation. This is not such a case.
FTFY. YW.