Very, Very Little Of ‘Content Moderation’ Has Anything To Do With Politics
from the that's-not-how-it-works dept
It’s truly amazing how focused people are, in discussions on content moderation, on the claims that “content moderation is censorship” and that it’s primarily “suppressing” political speech. That’s not how it works at all. Honestly, the origins of most content moderation efforts were around two major things: (1) spam prevention and (2) copyright infringement. Over time, that’s expanded, but the major categories of content moderation have little to nothing to do with “viewpoint” discrimination, no matter what Texas seems to think.
Casey Newton has a good post exploring Facebook’s latest transparency report where he highlights how little moderation has anything to do with people’s viewpoints.
An important thing to focus on, whether you’re an average user worried about censorship or recently bought a social network promising to allow almost all legal speech, is what kind of kind of speech Facebook removes. Very little of it is “political,” at least in the sense of “commentary about current events.” Instead, it’s posts related to drugs, guns, self-harm, sex and nudity, spam and fake accounts, and bullying and harassment.
To be sure, some of these categories are deeply enmeshed in politics — terrorism and “dangerous organizations,” for example, or what qualifies as hate speech. But for the most part, this report chronicles stuff that Facebook removes because it’s good for business. Over and over again, social products find that their usage shrinks when even a small percentage of the material they host includes spam, nudity, gore, or people harassing each other.
Usually social companies talk about their rules in terms of what they’re doing “to keep the community safe.” But the more existential purpose is to keep the community returning to the site at all.
I dug into some of the numbers, and if we just look at “content actioned” over the last couple years, it appears that spam is still the major focus. Facebook removed 1.8 billion pieces of content it judged as spam in just the fourth quarter of 2021. It also removed 1.6 billion “fake accounts” (Facebook requires accounts to be associated with real humans). You get to much smaller numbers for other categories, like 31 million pieces of content removed for “sexual activity,” 16.5 million pieces of content dealing with sexual exploitation, and another 2.1 million around “nudity and physical abuse” involving children. 16 million pieces of content dealt with for terrorism (which was way up). 26 million pieces of content were deemed problematic for “violent and graphic content.” 6.8 million were dealt with over “suicide and self-injury.” And 15 million for “hate speech.” Another 9.5 million were around “bullying and harassment.”
Even if you assume that some of the listed categories above were political, the numbers are still dwarfed by the spam and fake accounts issues that are the vast majority of content that Facebook’s moderators need to deal with. Putting this all in graphic form, you realize that content moderation is almost entirely about spam and (for Facebook) dealing with fake accounts. It is not, generally, about being “censors.” (Copyright seems to be part of a separate transparency report).
So, for everyone who insists that there should be no content moderation and that everything should flow, just recognize that most of what you’d be enabling is… spam. Lots and lots and lots of spam. Unfathomable amounts of spam.
To make this more explicit, I put all of the other categories together and made this chart:
So, yeah. You want content moderation. You need content moderation.
Content moderation is not about censoring political views.
Filed Under: content moderation, spam, transparency report
Companies: facebook
Comments on “Very, Very Little Of ‘Content Moderation’ Has Anything To Do With Politics”
As if the people who think that social media moderation is because of partisan politics actually care about facts and statistics.
If they did, they wouldn’t think social media moderation was because of partisan politics in the first place.
Re:
What’s your point?
Should sites just not bother reporting on anything that misinformed dipshits won’t believe? Because it kinda seems like under those restrictions, we’re not gonna have a lot to talk about.
Re: Re:
That comment is the same impulse to insult the article when the author ‘act surprised’ that politicians are liars. The article wasn’t aggressive enough, didn’t fling enough ad homs, and doesn’t cast republicans as the root of all evil, so they have to tell techdirt to be more aggressive and partisan.
Re: Re:
I was making a snide remark about the people who this information should ideally be meant for; not about the information itself. Calm your strawman.
Re: Re:
Please point to where Strawb proposed such restrictions as you talk about. In the meantime, here’s your vote for “troll”.
Well, there’s fake accounts and sex; fake accounts gore and sex; fake accounts and spam; fake accounts sex and spam; fake accounts sex gore and spam; spam sex gore and spam; spam fake accounts spam spam sex and spam; spam gore spam spam sex spam suicide and spam; spam spam spam fake accounts and spam; spam spam spam spam spam spam political speech spam spam spam…
Re:
Spammity spam! Wonderful spam!
Re: Re:
Damn Vikings!
Re: Re: Re:
I think you mean, “Damn Hormel!” 😉
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Then They Shouldn't Care
If its such a small percentage of their total censorship they shouldn’t care.
Re:
So why do you care, hmmm?
Re:
And yet, here you are.
Re:
They don’t care, that’s what this entire article is about.
Social media does not give to fucks about your politics, it just doesn’t want people acting like fucking assholes, no matter what your political affiliation.
That most people who are fucking assholes, like yourself, identify as “conservative” is a you problem and not a social media problem.
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Re: Re: Re:
That might actually be the problem. The moderation review centers are likely populated with a bunch of low paid and overworked reps. There’s likely numerous employees that are basically just click bots. Every case that comes across their screen for review, yup, * click * spam.
We’ve also seen how, often, a speaker’s message being censored was later restored and blamed on a “technical glitch” that goes unexplained. I think we might now know what’s happening here. Since most mass flagging campaigns are carried out by leftists, as evidenced right here on Techdirt, conservative messages tend to get flagged. Then the takedown is approved by a reviewer who just clicks on the remove button without actually reviewing the content and doing their job. But as long as they’re correct 99% of the time, which they are due to the spam volume, they just don’t care.
Re: Re: Re:
Plenty of right-wing assholes reportbomb “leftists” (read: queer people, people of color, and marginalized people in general) on Twitter, YouTube, and so on. That you think they don’t shows your ignorance on the matter—so educate yourself further before you fuck up like that again.
Re: Re: Re:
Meh, your argument died the instant you brought politics into it.
To bad too, because I think your point about them just clicking may be correct. That pesky political rhetoric you used though just prompted the moderation police to come in and moderate your message…
facepalm
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Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
I appreciate the timestamp. 6.5 hour sb.
Re: Re: Re:3 Bravely sir Koby ran away
Oh while you here just a question for you.
Re: Re: Re:
Thw best part is where you openly admit you’re lying about having any “evidence.”
Re: Re: Re:
Lol, wut? I’ve actually seen data on this, and you’re full of shit. Mass flagging campaigns happen across the board.
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Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Here on techdirt, they only occur against conservatives. And techdirt professes to be middle-of-the-road, not that I believe it. I can say with confidence that other platforms which trend leftist do it even more.
Re: Re: Re:3
WRONG!!!
Here on techdirt, they only occur against assholes, like yourself.
Re: Re: Re:3
This is false. Plenty of conservatives don’t have their comments flagged. Only idiots pushing nonsense and obviously bullshit misinformation in bad faith do.
Perhaps consider that.
Just as the studies have found, the bias is not against conservatives. It’s against assholes and misinformation peddlers.
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Re: Re: Re:4 Your Deffinition of Bad Faith
Your definition of bad faith/good faith is why section 230 is a joke.
Re: Re: Re:5
And yet, here you are.
You clearly have a problem with the First Amendment, have gone so far to harass regulars and make veiled rape threats, if not threats of violence, against even Mike, and by extension, the team under him.
Why should we trust YOUR opinion if it means we all get shot by your ilk?
Re: Re: Re:5
Just like with Section 230, it’s my site, I get to determine what I consider good faith and bad faith, choosey.
And you are the worst bad faith actor we’ve seen on this site in a long time.
I do wonder what make someone quite as pathetic, but that’s a you problem.
Re: Re: Re:
But as long as they’re correct 99% of the time, which they are due to the spam volume, they just don’t care.
You’re getting there! You’ve finally realized you’re being lumped in with spam. You should be asking why your content resembles easily recognized bullshit.
It’s been pointed out before – it’s not a social media problem. It’s a you people problem.
Re: Re: Re:
Considering your past behavior as a bad-faith NeoNazi actor…
You’re one to talk.
Re:
What makes you think they do?
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Re: Re:
“Google chiefs were distraught after Trump won in 2016”
https://itwire.com/it-industry-news/strategy/google-chiefs-were-distraught-after-trump-won-in-2016.html
A billion spambots makes little difference when the censoring of 1 news story like the Hunter Laptop can swing the Presidential election in the most powerful state in the world.
Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, because one story about Hunter Biden was going to overshadow everything Donald Trump did up to Election Day 2020~. That one story getting more traction would’ve changed the entire landscape of the political realm, such that the corruption of the Trump administration—including his idiot adult children, who were given jobs in said administration despite lacking the experience necessary for said jobs—would’ve been totally overlooked~.
Re: Re: Re:
That’s it I’m not gonna vote for hunter now!
Re: Re: Re:
True, the Hunter Biden laptop story was indeed censored. That’s why nobody could read the article at the New York Post after Twitter pulled it and no one was able to discuss it anywhere. That’s as a direct result of Twitter being a common carrier, and therefore an agent of the US Government. /s
Re: Re: Re:
[Hallucinates facts not in reality]
Re: Re: Re:2
It’s amazing, really. That one story is apparently the most censored story in Twitter history, yet everyone knows when the story was published, what it was about and all the context surrounding its publication – and have done since the moment Twitter temporarily removed it from a single account.
This would seem to indicate that if Twitter does indeed censor things, then it’s truly nothing to worry about since the “censored” content is far more famous and well known than most of the things they didn’t censor.
Re:
Are you blind, stupid or willfully obtuse? The answer is right there in the quote! Here it is for you again, emphasis mine:
Re:
[Hallucinates facts mot
Re: Re:
in evidence as always]
Statistics
The article takes “content moderation actions” as the goal, and puts ” ‘fake accounts’ removed” in that category. Which is fine. The number of content moderation actions taken is a good thing to know.
What it doesn’t tell you is the depth of the cess pool. That number you get by comparing the removals to the rest of similar content.
For instance, it appears that Twitter has approximately 400 million active users. The number of bot accounts removed represent 80% of the total number of accounts. In one quarter.
There are approximately 500 million tweets per day. Call it 45 billion over a quarter. A little more rounding and you can say that spam constituted about 4% of the total messages. All other message moderation totaled comes to only 2.3 per thousand (.2%).
Another interesting number, just from this article: The number of spamming accounts, and the amount of spam, are about equal. On average, then, a spam account gets out a single spam twit before being sacked.
Why do I like these numbers better than those in the article?
These don’t detract from the post’s main point, though: that the vast majority of moderation effort is to eliminating opportunistic spam.
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Up To 11h
I’m unfamiliar with anyone who wants zero moderation. Moderating out porn and commercial spam are considered to be highly legitimate. But no volume of spam and porn justifies censorship based upon political disagreement alone.
Re:
You have heavily implied that Twitter, Facebook, and platforms like those should be forced by law to host all legally protected speech (which would include porn and spam). You’ve never refuted that idea, nor have you said you don’t believe in that idea.
Yes or no, Koby: Do you believe the government should have the legal right to compel any privately owned interactive web service into hosting legally protected speech that the owners/operators of said service don’t want to host?
(Now watch the coward disappear.)
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Re: Re: Re:
I’ve consistently said that, as an open platform, and as a near monopoly, they should host all legally protected political speech. A few weeks ago, I specifically praised a legislation proposal for defining commercial spam as harrassment which could rightfully be removed by moderators.
Re: Re: Re:
What if “political speech” and “spam” overlap? For instance, what if I say “It’s a good thing Roe v. Wade was repealed” over 30 times in the span of seconds?
Or what if I link to a conservative web site that was a phishing scam that hacked you?
Would you be favor of deleting those, or would you consider that deleting “political” speech?
Re: Re: Re:2
[W]hat if I say “It’s a good thing Roe v. Wade was repealed” over 30 times in the span of seconds?
I’d call you a fucking liar over 30 times in the span of seconds, an since such a statement would also be political speech…
Re: Re: Re:3
Well, techincally, opinions can’t be lies unless they were based on false information (or rather, the false information could be a lie or lies but the opinion based thereon is not).
However, if I said “I think it’s a good thing Roe v. Wade was repealed” then feel free to call me a fucking liar because that was indeed a lie because it was a deliberately false statement of fact.
Re: Re: Re:4
Actually, saying ‘I think’ is an indicator of opinion. Saying ‘This is so’ can be a lie.
Re: Re: Re:5
Saying “I think…” is analogous to saying “I believe…” or “I opine that…”. The predicate clause may be an opinion, but my statement saying that I hold said opinions is a statement of fact. If I deliberately say I hold an opinion I do not hold, I am both a liar and a hypocrite.
Re: Re: Re:6
In some cases. In other cases, it seems that claiming to think about a subject is an untrue statement, since so many people obviously just parrot the same factually untrue talking points without a moment of thought.
Re: Re: Re:6
*read Samuel’s original comment* Where do you say or even indicate that you don’t hold that opinion? Context is everything…
Re: Re: Re:7
Okay, I understand why you would be confused. I actually do not hold the opinion that it’s a good thing the Supreme Court will overturn Roe v. Wade. If anything, it infuriates me just thinking about how reactionary the current supermajority of the US Supreme Court is that they are going to do massive
and fatal damage to women with this ruling. The reason why I hypothetically posited my views as conservatives was because I was hopefully trying to make Koby understand when it’s his views that are being challenged and not mine. That doesn’t mean they are my views, though.
Re: Re: Re:8
Ah, missing “/s”. Got it.
Re: Re: Re:
Any speech can be “political” under the right lens. An infamous joke about (asshole) gamers starts off with the idea that they believe in two genders: male and “political”. We’ve got Hyman Rosen, transphobe extraordinare, essentially arguing on another article that speech mocking trans people only for being trans (i.e., for existing) should be considered “satire” and thus protected from “censorship” by social media companies.
This raises an important question, Koby: When you say “political speech”, exactly what kind of speech are you referring to? Because I’m 99.99999% goddamned sure you don’t mean treatises on trickle-down economics or opinions about industry deregulation.
And that ties back into my original question: Do you believe the government should have the legal right to compel any privately owned interactive web service into hosting legally protected speech—“political” or otherwise—that the owners/operators of said service don’t want to host?
Re: Re: Re: Bravely sir Koby ran away.
Answer the question coward.
Re: Re: Re:
You have no comprehension of what either of those mean.
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Ummm… This entire article points out how social media has zero fucks to give about your political affiliation, they just don’t want fucking assholes on their service.
That you consider the people getting banned from social media for being fucking assholes, ie racists, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic, bigoted assholes, is being biased towards conservatives, maybe you should take a long hard look at the company you want to keep and why you call yourself a conservative.
I mentioned
That I would Dare the groups to Supply 100,000 people to be educated into the job.
Get them to working.
Now as an extra bit. If a political site is installed onto the site, demand that THAT section can not, edit/censor Any posts that are up and displayed. Good, Bad, Ugly, Spam, What ever appears, IS NOT REMOVED.
Or, Perhaps, LET them remove it. But use a tote board and DISPLAY what has been removed. Spam, anti politics, abuse, Bad language, What ever.
Either way, they get Their way, But its SHOWN.
Spam and false accounts are not necessarily content moderation
I think it is misleading to call all this moderation. The risks and costs associated with dealing with the 3.4 billion spam messages and fake accounts is very different then all the other ~130 million messages.
There is much more automation involved with spam/fake account management. Facebook stating they deleted 1.8 billion spam messages doesn’t mean much, that’s the easy part. Spam management has been essentially solved for years in email. Likewise there is automation for much of fake account management. If this was difficult Facebook would not have been able to delete 1.6 billion fake accounts. Also the two are linked as spam is often sent by fake accounts.
That leaves the ~130 million messages containing sexual activity, nudity and physical abuse, terrorism, violent and graphic content, suicide and self-injury, hate speech or bullying and harassment. None of this type of content can be automatically filtered reliably. All of this type of content can be political. This is where moderation is done, using a combination of technology and humans that can evaluate each message, understanding the content, context and history, and then make a determination.
Still a big unsolved problem, and haven’t even got into misinformation moderation.
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Um, yeah, it is content moderation. I was just in a discord server and the moderator manually deleted the messages of and banned a scammer who sent the same phishing message to all the channels of the server.
How could you not call that moderation?
Re: Re:
To be fair, at least two assholes who post regularly here would refer to that deletion as “censorship”, so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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This headline is a lie. Techdirt is a leading culprit.
Mike Masnick, please stop writing garbage articles like this because your website Techdirt alone is responsible for blocking many scathing reviews of your own articles debunking and embarrassing yourself and many of your “authors” that call themselves “journalists”, that aren’t.
Re:
Wut?
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Re: Re: Yep
Mike you can screw up mightily and not understand what a protective order and then a post that just quotes the case you are citing where it refers to the motion as a “protective order” 8 times will be censored because you and your misfits dont like being shown you were incorrect.
That is why you and your misfits are massive cunts.
Re: Re: Re:
Whatever you say, Mr. Public House-ing. 😉
Re: Re: Re:
[Hallucinates facts contrary to evidence]
Re: Re: Re:
Ignoring the fact that we’ve already disproved that assertion multiple times, what does that have to do with this thread?
Re:
[Hallucinates facts not in evidence]
Re: Re:
Is it Hamilton hunting season again? Or did Shiva Ayyadurai run out of suckers to wear the Fran Drescher mask?
Re: Re: Re: Look what you've done.
Now you have put a mental image in my head of Hamilton and Jhon_boy pointing shotguns at each other and saying it’s the season for the other guy, à la the classic Looney Tunes cartoon.
Re: Re: Re:2
Which one’s Bugs Bunny and which one’s Elmer Fudd?
Re: Re: Re:3
Why can’t they both be Fudd?
Re: Re: Re:4
Because one’s got to be Bugs Bunny for it to be rabbit season. And if you bring in a third player, they can be Daffy Duck for duck season. 😉
Re: Re: Re:4
They’re both FUD.
Re:
[citation needed]
I think I understand the problem.
Being a racist fuckwad isn’t actually considered a political position by most people, but the racist fuckwads all want to hide behind the same elephant so that more people will support the racist fuckwad ideals.
Re: Umm
DUH!
Ever notice that the 2 groups always have about the same number of people? Amazing isnt it.
Where all the Smaller groups cant get any money, they Look at the large groups and Think, If we join them, WE might get more money.
So now insted of having a consolidated, multifaceted group that can discuss and compare. You have a Bunch of internal groups trying to control the Main/All group.
Which comes from the GREAT concept of working wiht the Corps and rich to get Money rather then depending on your GROUP for the money. And Why paying $400,000,000 for Running for office is Cheap.
Re:
…the racist fuckwads all want to hide behind the same elephant…
That wouldn’t be the GOP elephant by any chance, would it? 😉
Re: Re:
I was thinking the exact same thing, and I think that’s what That Anonymous Coward™ was driving at…
Re: Re: Re:
Well, he could have meant the elephant in the room. 😉
Re: 'Conservative? Oh, you mean terrible person. So what?'
It’s funny in a way as they’re creating a self-fulfilling prophecy and undermining their position in one step by portraying their bigotry and/or general assholishness as a ‘political’ position and then decrying the ‘political’ persecution, ensuring that even if people bought the idea that anti-asshole moderation is ‘political’ they also won’t care since the alternative is letting abusive jackasses run wild.
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Re:
WASPs on this blog Calling the 76% of us Latinos who don’t support Biden “Race Traitors” isn’t be a racist fuckwad?
Re: Re:
First of all, I had never seen any one on this blog call Latinos who don’t support Biden as “race traitors” Also, considering that Biden has also pissed off some of the left, I’d like you to provide evidence for that claim. Put up or shut up.
Re: Re:
If you don’t like Biden because of his policies, I’d at least lay off the race traitor namecalling.
But when YOU espouse white worship bullshit, generally try to make veiled threats and harass regulars who don’t share your opinions…
Hey, if the shoe fucking fits, it’s time to break out the chancla.
Re: Re:
[citation needed]
Re: Re:
Aren’t you the one angrily calling out anyone who dares use the term Latino? Could it be the term has some rhetorical value after all?
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Moderation
But the problem is that ANY Content Moderation of Political thought and speech is too much. So what if it’s a little? By the way, are you including speech about climate, about vaccines, about several other issues that are political even though they are not involving official politics?
Your not that much goes to over 60 percent then. Get a clue. Any moderation is anti-American. It’s censorship.
Re:
Cool story bro… now do Fox News.
There is no law against moderation with political bias. Otherwise, how can sites like Fox news, Breitbart, and every other right-wing web site, remove comments that are anti-conservative? It happens regularly.
Re:
Luckily, that doesn’t exist at all outside of Parler.
Re:
So I have to associate with people who hate me and want me dead then?
Re:
“Any moderation is anti-American.”
In that case, it’s weird how you politically align with the sites that practice it the most – some of which I presume you’re closely aware of since you parrot a lot of the fiction that originates there.
Re: Re:
…a lot of the fiction that originates there.
If the fiction originates on far-right social media and not its users, that makes the case for reclassifying such sites as online publishers, removing some of their Section 230 protections. ;D
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Viewpoint-Based Censorship Is Bad
Viewpoint-based censorship is still bad and contrary to the principles of free speech even when it’s dwarfed by other forms of moderation. I would think this was obvious.
Re:
… said nobody who understand pr suppprts the concept of free speech, ever.
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Re: Re:
Of course woke ideologues believe in free speech for me but not for thee. The think it’s free speech when they can say what they want but their opponents are silenced and exiled.
Re: Re: Re:
Projection, thy name is Hyman.
Re: 'Consequences? No fair!'
‘It’s not fair for there to be consequences for my words and/or deeds’, ah the cry of the assholes as they’re shown the door…
Free speech is not and never has been shorthand for consequence-free speech, so stop pining for something that has never existed and maybe ask yourself why people keep showing you the door.
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Re: Re:
Having the consequence for speaking be to no longer be allowed to speak (“shown the door”) is so obviously contrary to the principles of free speech that it’s astounding that anyone could say such a thing, except, naturally, for woke ideologues who spout such nonsense all the time.
Re: Re: Re:
So kicking the KKK off my property for burning a cross in my yard is contrary to the principles of Freedom of Speech? I thought I could control who I want on my property!
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Re: Re: Re:2
Why do you think that being allowed to control your property prevents such control from being against the principles of freedom of speech? Freedom of speech is (duh) about the freedom to speak. If you deny someone the ability to speak, you are taking away their freedom of speech, even if you are allowed to do that, and even if they can speak elsewhere.
Re: Re: Re:3
If you’re speaking on my property without my permission, I can tell you unequivocally that I will remove you from said property.
It won’t be a request.
I won’t be considering your freedom of speech.
I won’t be considering whether or not my actions violate your speech.
I won’t be considering the importance of what you’re saying.
I won’t be considering your feelings about it.
I won’t be considering the philosophical implications of it.
I won’t be consulting case law.
I will only be considering the method in which you are removed.
If you think I’ll suffer any consequences from it, you can discuss that in the back of the police car, or ambulance.
But I can tell you it won’t be on my property.
In the end, you’ll realize that the right to free speech is like the right of way on the road. Sure, you might have the right of way technically – but you’re still going to deal with a wreck of your own doing if you feel that right’s absolute.
Govern yourself accordingly.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Good for you? I hope that the next time rioters, looters, and arsonists attack private property, they will meet with the same response.
Once again, because the woke are so hard of understanding, your legal right and your ability to prevent someone from speaking nevertheless deprives them of their freedom of speech if you choose to do so.
Re: Re: Re:5
You can’t exactly accuse others of being hard of understanding (my phrase, so thanks for the plagiarism) when you clearly don’t understand that the right to speak freely on private property is the same as the right to break into such property and help yourself to whatever you fancy: nonexistent. (-_Q)
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Re: Re: Re:6
Rights are voluntary restrictions that rulers with a force monopoly impose upon themselves because they believe such restrictions result in a better society. As such, they may be partial, arbitrary, inconsistent, and contradictory. So we have both a right to free speech and a right to control our private property, and these rights can be in conflict. The fact that our society is constituted such that your right to private property overrides the freedom of someone to speak on your property does not mean that the silenced speaker has not had their right abrogated.
Re: Re: Re:7
your right to private property overrides the freedom of someone to speak on your property
Yep, it sure does.
Are you suggesting that it shouldn’t be that way? Because that implies that private property isn’t really private. And if it isn’t private who owns it? The public?
That sure sounds like some woke communism you’re floating.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Of course I’m not suggesting any such thing. I’m suggesting that the large speech platforms should voluntarily not engage in viewpoint-based censorship in order to increase their users’ ability to speak freely.
Woke ideologues keep insisting this is about forcing platforms to do that, so that they can hide behind the 1st Amendment and say that platforms cannot be forced to do that.
Re: Re: Re:9
I’m suggesting that the large speech platforms should voluntarily not engage in viewpoint-based censorship in order to increase their users’ ability to speak freely.
So let others speak as they please with the intention that it maintains the speakers’ rights over the property owners’ rights.
Yeah, that’s not sounding very woke. In fact, it’s sounding very autocratic.
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Re: Re: Re:10
The property owners, that is, the platforms, are the ones I would like to voluntarily stop viewpoint-based censorship. There is no conflict here, except in the minds of woke ideologues who desperately want such censorship to continue.
Re: Re: Re:11
What viewpoints are being censored?
If you can explain that, we can start to have a discussion.
But you won’t.
I have as you fuckers 100s of times to enumate a list of conservative viewpoints that are being censored, and all I get is silence, crickets, nada, nothing, rien.
So again, for the 26,875th time, what are these viewpoints that are being censored?
That you align yourself with racists, homophobes, misogynists, xenophobes, and bigots, is a YOU problem, and not a social media problem.
Re: Re: Re:12
Woke gender ideology, for one. Using deadly force against rioters, looters, and arsonists, for another.
Re: Re: Re:13
So you admit that you have nothing.
Re: Re: Re:13
WTAF are you even trying to say?
That’s your problem, you’re mad about something, but you have no fucking idea what it is you are mad about. Just that some politician told you that you should be mad about it.
Re: Re: Re:13
Hold up… The question was:
So you’re now saying that “woke gender ideology” is being censored? That’d be quite the about-face for you.
Now, I’m 95% sure that you meant that opposition to “woke gender ideology” is being censored, which, as has already been pointed out to you multiple times, is bigotry based upon what views you include in the term “woke gender ideology”, and so still count as “align[ing] yourself with racists, homophobes, misogynists, xenophobes, and bigots,” as the AC noted, and is no more problematic viewpoint censorship than moderation of any other asshole.
I… honestly have no idea what you are referencing here. To my knowledge, neither that viewpoint nor opposition to it are even moderated by Twitter as a general practice, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Re: Re: Re:9
Yes or no.
Are people allowed to use force to protect their property, REGARDLESS OF RACE, RELIGION OR POLITICAL INCLINATION?
Because the Roof Koreans have the answer to that, and that is, “only if you’re white”.
Re: Re: Re:9
We already have no viewpoint-based censorship (or any censorship, for that matter) right now that now, so why are you being a pissbaby when you already got what you claim you want?
Re: Re: Re:5
your legal right and your ability to prevent someone from speaking nevertheless deprives them of their freedom of speech if you choose to do so.
Your freedom of speech becomes irrelevant to me the minute you come on my property. Otherwise, it’s not really mine, is it?
Like I said, if you want to technically be right and lose some teeth while doing it, go for it. You just need to ask yourself if having a permanent dent in your head is worth your principles.
It’s a simple position really. You’ll leave or I’ll make you leave.
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Re: Re: Re:6
But your property isn’t really yours. Rights are voluntary restrictions taken by rulers with force monopolies. Your right to private property exists because the people with guns who could come and take it away from you have chosen not to. Those same people could say, if they wanted to, that you must allow people to come onto your property and speak.
That was actually the case until a year ago, for example, in California. California law required that farm owners must allow union organizers on their property to speak to the farm workers. That was overturned by Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid, but there are probably similar laws still in existence.
https://capitalresearch.org/article/supreme-court-limits-governments-power-to-aid-unions/
Re: Re: Re:7
My right to my property needs zero explanation from you. As I said, I’m not going to fuck around giving you some benefit of the doubt that you think you’re entitled to.
You’ll get yourself a Buckwheat should you insist on your right to speak after I tell you to leave. This isn’t a matter of me asking for permission from you. I’m telling you that you can stuff your rights up your entitled ass for all I care.
If you run your yap and overstay your welcome, I will not hesitate to to move you to a place where you’re not annoying to me.
I couldn’t give anything resembling a shit as to what you think you’re entitled to, as far as my property is concerned.
It’s really simple – if I don’t like what you’re saying on my property, you will be moved. You can yammer on about your rights all the way to the emergency room. Don’t like it? Feel free to go fuck yourself down the road.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Until last year, if you owned a farm in California and tried that approach with union organizers who came onto your farm to speak with your workers, people with guns would come and take you away. The only rights to your property you have are those that the government allows you to have. They can take it away from you any time they want. You might be hosting a wetland. You might not have paid your taxes. You might be hosting an endangered species.
Re: Re: Re:9
Until last year, if you owned a farm in California and tried that approach with union organizers who came onto your farm to speak with your workers, people with guns would come and take you away.
Because workers (should) have a right to join a union, and if they’ve invited a union rep onto an area of the farm where they’re allowed to be… Nope, still don’t see your non-point.
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Re: Re: Re:10
They don’t own the farm on which the union organizers were invited. When you have a plumber fix your toilet, they don’t get to invite other people into your home. Unless the government says they can.
We had to have a special amendment that said the government couldn’t quarter soldiers in your house. Because normally the people with guns get to do whatever they want.
But I suppose people who think that men can be turned into women don’t have the firmest grasp on reality.
Re: Re: Re:9
The only rights to your property you have are those that the government allows you to have. They can take it away from you any time they want.
‘They’ does not include ‘you.’
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Re: Re: Re:10
Correct. For all values of ‘you’.
Re: Re: Re:9
The only rights to your property you have are those that the government allows you to have.
The only rights to my property that YOU have are those that I allow you to have. If you speak on my property uninvited, you will be removed.
I thought I was clear:
It won’t be a request.
I won’t be considering your freedom of speech.
I won’t be considering whether or not my actions violate your speech.
I won’t be considering the importance of what you’re saying.
I won’t be considering your feelings about it.
I won’t be considering the philosophical implications of it.
I won’t be consulting case law.
I also won’t be pondering whether my property is truly mine.
I won’t be thinking about where that right comes from.
I won’t be consulting farmers in California.
I won’t be asking if the person is trying to form a union.
I won’t be checking to see if I paid the tax bill.
And I won’t be asking myself if my property is a wetland.
I don’t understand how this isn’t clear at this point.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Until last year, California required that farm owners allow union organizers onto their private property.
That’s a very nice manifesto, by the way. Are you related to Cliven Bundy? He also thought he could do whatever he wanted with his property. And are you going to be visiting an elementary school anytime soon?
Re: Re: Re:3
Where do you live? I have these LGTBQ+ protestors that need somewhere to enlighten people about their persecution from assholes, I thought your place would be the ideal place.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Manhattan. Do you think that you are proposing something that isn’t done routinely?
https://abc7ny.com/animal-activists-liam-neeson-horse-drawn-carriages-bill-de-blasio/30605/
https://www.tapinto.net/towns/sutton-place-slash-lenox-hill/sections/government/articles/protest-against-former-animal-shelter-board-member-continues
Re: Re: Re:5
I’m actually suggesting they’ll stand in your livingroom, not outside. If you don’t agree to that you are infringing their free speech rights if we go by the arguments you have put forth.
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Re: Re: Re:6
I will not let them stand in my living room to speak, and I will be infringing on their free speech rights by doing so.
Re: Re: Re:2
I thought I could control who I want on my property!
Only as long as you’re not violating other’s free speech rights, even if they’re violating yours. Haven’t you learnt (un)Chozen’s rules yet?
Re: Re: Re:
Has never happened, and is impossible outside of your deranged hallucinations.
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That’s right, show them the door. Let them go. There is no politically motivated censorship that takes place on Techdirt. Just GET THE FUCK OUT if you don’t like it here. GET LOST! It has NOTHING TO DO with POLITICS! YOU JUST DON’T AGREE WITH THE PARTY LINE! YOU ARE A TRAITOR! BURN IN HELL! (All real Democrats approve this message).
Re:
Your strawman is bad and you should feel bad.
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Re: Re:
You Misfits say it explicitly.
“Flag and move on”
“Why are you still here”
You admit over and over again that you abuse the flag system to get people you don’t politically agree with to leave.
That is why you are cunts. Cunts do that behind the back power abuse shit. Asshole Musk comes at Gates directly. Gates on the other hand secretly funds 501(c)(3)s to go after Musk, which is why he is a cunt.
Anyone who argues that ‘its about removing assholes’ is almost always a fucking CUNT!
Re: Re: Re:
I’m pretty sure there are a few commenters here whose politics don’t always see eye-to-eye with mine. I don’t flag them for disagreeing with me so long as they’re not assholes about it.
I flag you, Hyman, Lodos, Koby, and several other chumps like y’all on sight primarily because y’all have proven yourselves to be a bunch of assholes whose arguments are mostly pounding on a table because you don’t have either the law or the facts on your side. That your politics are my polar opposites in many respects is generally a coincidence.
If you want to be taken seriously here, stop acting like an asshole and start having a conversation instead of shouting match. When you ask a question, expect an answer that you may not agree with. Examine why you don’t agree with that answer, then express your disagreement in a way that doesn’t boil down to “fuck you, you’re wrong; fuck you, I’m right”. Raise points based in facts—e.g., legal citations—rather than fiction. (Opinions are not facts; anecdotal experience is not empirical evidence.) And if you can’t think of a good rejoinder or counter-argument to someone’s point, say “fair enough” or “fair point” and move on.
You can comment here without being an asshole. Try doing it some time and see how much less you get flagged for it.
Or, y’know, call me a cunt and tell me to shut up—because wanting someone who disagrees with you to shut up is totally in line with the principles of free speech~.
Re: Re: Re:2
Worth noting is that Lodos’s politics don’t appear to be the opposite of everyone here; he just tends to make bad arguments.
Re: Re: Re:
It’s not that we don’t agree with you politically, it’s that you are a FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!
Why is it that the fucking assholes are so fucking stupid that you always have to blame something other than their own fucking asshole self as the reason why nobody wants them around.
I mean, you are a perfect example of that. You are a fucking asshole, no ands ifs or buts about it, you’re a fucking asshole.
That you think we flag your posts because of politics just goes to show how fucking stupid you are.
You and I may align politically, but you’re still a fucking asshole and that is why nobody wants you on their property.
Re: Re: Re:2
Why is it that the fucking assholes are so fucking stupid that you always have to blame something other than their own fucking asshole self as the reason why nobody wants them around.
The Dunning-Kreuger effect.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“It’s not that we don’t agree with you politically, it’s that you are a FUCKING ASSHOLE!!!”
I treat people how they deserve to be treated. It didn’t’take long to figure out the Mike’s 6 Misfits are FUCKING CUNTS!!!
Re: Re: Re:3
I’d rather be a cunt than an asshole…
cunts are more fun to play with!
Re: Re: Re:4
Being called a cunt also implies you have depth and warmth—which are things Chozen clearly lacks.
Re: Re: Re:3
You know, it’s pretty stupid of you to try gaslighting that any reader can debunk for themselves with a click or a scroll.
Re: Re: Re:3
It didn’t’take long to figure out the Mike’s 6 Misfits are FUCKING CUNTS!!!
And yet, here you are.
Asshole.
Re: Re: Re:3
Again, it’s a lot more than 6 people who have argued with you.
Re: Re: Re:2
Why is it that the fucking assholes are so fucking stupid that you always have to blame something other than their own fucking asshole self as the reason why nobody wants them around.
Because that would require honesty and an admission of personal responsibility(‘Personal Responsibility: That’s For Other People‘(tm)) into why no-one seems to agree with them that might lead to the conclusion that they are the asshole and/or wrong, and since that clearly can’t be the case the problem must be everyone else.
Re: Re: Re:
You just go right on telling yourself that, asshole.
Re: Re: Re:
Have you tried not harassing people?
It’s a red flag for “this user is dangerous and should be repirted to the authorities immediately”.
Re:
I tried to do that with Hyman Rosen. He simply will not get the message. But then he’s a transphobic monster so I shouldn’t have been surprised.
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Re: Re:
[growls in monster-like tones]
Do what, get me to leave? Why would I do that? Sailing the boat of truth in the sea of error is so much fun!
Re: Re: Re: Weird flex bro
That’s a weird way to spell humiliating yourself over and over again because it’s the only kind of attention you can get.
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Re: Re: Re:2
The thing is, you can try to humiliate someone, but it doesn’t work if they don’t respect your opinion. Then they just laugh at you.
Re: Re: Re:3
You mean the way that the majority of people on this site are always laughing at you? ʘ‿ʘ
Re: Re: Re:3
So you don’t respect your own opinion?
You maybe wanna take a second crack at that one champ?
Re: Re: Re:
Sailing the boat of egregious error in the sea of truth is so much fun!
FTFY. YW. 🙂
Re: Re: Re:
FTFY
Re:
Me: Presents actual data, explains the details behind it.
You: Nuh uh.
Which do you think is more convincing?
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Re: Re:
Its not convincing at all.
Its like saying that 99.9999999999% of all people who enter a school are not a school shooter therefor school shootings are not a problem and we dont need to do anything to prevent shooters from entering schools.
Its a fucking stupid argument Mike!
Re: Re: Re:
Why do you care this much about a site run by a guy you’ve made it very clear you hate to the point you want to anally rape him?
Re: Re: Re:2
What he gets is an excuse to pour out his vitriol.
Re: Re: Re:3
But the Internet already has an outlet for that sort of bullshit.
It’s called Twitter.
Re: Re: Re:4
Only if he has not gotten himself banned.
Re: Re: Re: We got us a real pillow biter here.
Speaking of people who can only get an erection if they totally humiliate themselves in front of their betters, here you are.
Re: Re: Re:2
Chozen is an insult to masochists everywhere.
Re: Re: Re:3
If Chozen is an insult to masochists wouldn’t masochists find that a good thing? Ah, got to love Season 5, Episode 5 of Rick and Morty.
Re:
Looks like you understand the point just fine. Getting minimized means we can still read your comment, like I am doing now. You must be really deranged and privileged to think you are being silenced if I can totally see the entirety of your comment.
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Re: Re:
How many flagged posts here are actually abusive, trolling, or spam? It is abundantly clear that the woke ideologues of the Techdirt commentariat do whatever they can to silence posts they disagree with. If they could do more than flag, they would, but fortunately, for now the site doesn’t allow that.
Re: Re: Re:
You are a fucking abusive troll.
It’s not that we don’t like your politics, its that we don’t like fucking assholes like you.
Hell, for all you know, we could be aligned politically, it’s just that I don’t act like a fucking asshole.
Why don’t you people ever learn, it’s not your politics we don’t like, its you, the fucking asshole.
Re: Re: Re:
“commentaries”
We’re you up all night thinking of that by yourself or did you steal it from someone smarter than you?
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Re: Re: Re:2
It happened on the same night as “wokerati”. I save up these bon mots for the right occasion.
Or maybe it’s just a word: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/commentariat
Re: Re: Re:3
So up all night then.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Yes, I got it from someone smarter. The truth is that I come on here despite not knowing as much as some commenters with cognitive impairments, like Naughty Autie, because it’s the only way for me to boost a self-esteem that’s in the negative numbers. 🙁
Re: Re: Re:3
“despite not knowing as much as some commenters with cognitive impairments”
Hey don’t beat yourself up. That’s our job hun.
Re: Re: Re:
On just this page alone, anyone reasonable can see that rate is 100%.
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Re: Re: Re:2 lol
The very comment you are responding to is flagged as spam.
“How many flagged posts here are actually abusive, trolling, or spam? It is abundantly clear that the woke ideologues of the Techdirt commentariat do whatever they can to silence posts they disagree with. If they could do more than flag, they would, but fortunately, for now the site doesn’t allow that.”
How is this spam?
Re: Re: Re:3
Because assholes like you, and Hymen, and Koby, and several others, are just plain old low grade asshole trolls.
Nothing more.
That you can’t understand why people generally don’t want to associate with assholes… when that is a YOU problem.
So most people just tag and move on…
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Re: Re: Re:4
The historic trends of this blog show that people done want to associate with you and the rest of Mike’s misfits.
Re: Re: Re:5
Where are the historic trends that you reference?
Link to your source data, or you are, once again, for the 1,985,765th time, full of shit!
Re: Re: Re:3
Note the message that pops up when you hover over an inactive flag button: “Flag this comment as abusive/trolling/spam.” You may not post what the average person would consider to be “spam”, but you’ve proven yourself to be a troll. Given your documented-by-your-comments-page history of posting rape threats against at least Mike and myself, you’ve also proven to be someone who abuses the privilege of being able to post here.
When you post, your reputation precedes you. You get flagged on sight by numerous commenters/readers—including myself—because you’ve proven that you have nothing to offer but a 4chan-esque level of discourse. Don’t like it? Stop threatening to rape people, stop calling people cunts, stop telling people to shut up because (and when) they can out-argue you, and get an argument that doesn’t suck.
Or keep doing all those things and watch your posts keep getting flagged. Your call.
Re: Re: Re:3
Motte, bailey.
Re: Re: Re:3
No one said it was spam. The question was about whether post that get hidden are abusive, trollish, or spam. Your post is likely considered trollish due to your reputation here, so that fits the criteria for flagging.
You just tried to move the goalposts, but that won’t work here.
Re: Re: Re:
Since you keep calling transgender people “delusional” (contrary to the scientific consensus), your post would likely be considered “abusive” or “trollish”.
Really, it’s pretty rare for posts that don’t fit to be hidden, so I call it out when I notice it.
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Re: Re: Re:2
It would be nice if truth was not considered abusive, but whatever. Keep flagging, I guess.
Re: Re: Re:3
Whether or not something is the truth is separate from whether or not it is abusive. Like in most circumstances dead naming is abusive no matter how polite you are about using it.
Re: Re: Re:4
There’s a reason why we have the adage that the truth hurts. Physical reality is not kind to people who believe lies about it. A Superman costume does not let a man fly whne he jumps out the window. A woman costume does not turn a man into a woman.
One common aspect to all of woke ideology is that the favored victim classes must never be confronted by harsh reality, only ever cocooned in the soft batting of comforting lies, even when the effect is to destroy them.
Re: Re: Re:5
Which can be used in reference to many things, like when a livestreamer jokingly suggests that everyone in chat is single, which ends up being largely true and leading to many of them receiving “emotional damage”, or when someone calls a woman “flat-chested”. In addition to not always referring to cases where a person is delusional, self-deceptive, or claiming a falsehood or something, it doesn’t always justify saying the truth to begin with. It can also be used to suggest that just because something is true doesn’t mean it should be said.
Also, there are a lot of adages, many of which contradict some other adage. That we have an adage about something doesn’t really mean that much.
We’re not just talking about whether a transwoman is a man or woman (or whether a transman is a man or a woman) right now. We’re talking about deadnaming. That particular issue isn’t about anything that even conceivably is about self-deception or affirming falsehoods, even by your standards of what is true. This is about bringing up something from the past about someone that is irrelevant and is rude and/or harmful to the subject: their previous name.
Here are some somewhat (though not perfectly) analogous examples to give you an idea:
There are others as well, but I don’t want to belabor the point too much. The point is that whether something is true or not is not dispositive of whether or not it should be said.
It has already been pointed out to you that this is inapt and why. Transgender people aren’t delusional, and they aren’t making claims that are physically impossible.
Nobody claims that it does. Again, transgender people do not claim that a man can turn into a woman at all. They claim that a male body can house a woman’s mind (which appears to be true), and that it is possible for many such people to present sufficiently feminine as to appear to be women and, to a lesser extent in some cases, female for most intents and purposes.
I know you don’t agree that sex and gender (and, thus, male and man as well as female and woman) are distinct concepts, but we’re talking about someone’s claims and beliefs and how they correspond to physical reality. The definitions of terms like “sex”, “gender”, “male”, “man”, “female”, and “women” are not themselves physical reality even if some or all of them are used to describe physical reality, so having a different definition from yours for some or all of these terms cannot itself be contradicted by physical reality. As far as the claimants are concerned, their definitions are valid, so when analyzing their claims, choosing to ignore what they are actually saying and instead of evaluating the claims on their own terms is indicative of either ignorance or bad faith. As for presenting as women/female, I doubt that even you would disagree that some transwomen can, indeed, appear in such a way that they appear virtually indistinguishable from most ciswomen in most situations, so you cannot now argue that that is false.
Transgender do not—as a rule—claim that they have or can change from a man to a woman or vice versa, and what they do claim is entirely consistent with physical reality as best as we can tell. I ask that you drop this strawman because it is not a claim that is actually being made by either side.
>
Re: Re: Re:6
Not sure why my comment got posted prematurely, but whatever. Continuing:
I see no evidence of this, and you haven’t presented any that stand up to scrutiny. Again, that your view of reality disagrees with another’s view of reality doesn’t demonstrate that your view is the true reality and they are just trying to avoid reality. You have still not presented evidence that transgender people are denying reality to begin with. You also haven’t (to my recollection) pointed out instances of other kinds of “woke ideologues” doing that, either. You can keep saying their claims contradict reality and are false, but you have provided no evidence or sound arguments to support this. You can also keep claiming that they wish to ignore reality, but you haven’t demonstrated that, either.
You also demonstrate that you are incapable or unwilling to actually address the actual claims made by transgender people and their allies simply because you don’t agree with some of their definitions, and your response to neurological and psychological consensus that brain structure and brain chemistry correlate far better with gender identity than with physiological or genetic sex and that there are scientific facts to back up the claims of transgender people—when you bother to even try to address it beyond essentially just saying “nuh-uh”—you attack the entire field of psychology as (allegedly) being solely or primarily political and not being “real” science or capable of establishing a consensus conclusion (subject to later revision like in literally every scientific field) and don’t even address the actual evidence or the neurological aspect. You might also claim that “woke ideologues” accept science/psychology when it benefits them and denies it when it does not without ever even trying to demonstrate that the latter occurs at all. As such, the idea that your view of reality is necessarily the “correct” view is highly suspect, and the idea that your view necessarily contradicts another’s is also suspect.
Ib id. Also, not wanting to be deadnamed is not remotely being cocooned in lies, nor is wanting to not be put in danger by forcing them to use the “right” restroom.
You have given no evidence that this has ever been the case at all. If you think calling someone by their preferred name, using the pronouns and gendered nouns they prefer (or simply avoiding the use of gendered pronouns or other gendered nouns altogether, which is not even remotely a requirement to affirm their claims that you disagree with), not forcing them to use single-sex spaces that have a far greater risk of danger for them than any alternatives while not also in any way actually decreasing the danger for anyone compared to letting them use the single-sex spaces that are safer for them, not ignoring the current state of science in the area, not focusing on what’s between someone’s legs or in their genes outside of sex, porn, dating (maybe), and medicine, and not focusing on someone’s sex or gender in discussions that don’t related to such things is “destroying” transgender people, you clearly don’t understand what “destroy” means.
So, [citation needed]
Re:
There is no politically motivated censorship that takes place on Techdirt.
Which politics are being ‘censored’, and be very specific.
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Re: Re:
Opposition to woke ideology, including woke gender ideology.
Re: Re: Re:
Your definition of “woke gender ideology” includes facts about the scientific consensus about transgender people, and being opposed to facts like that is generally opposed here regardless of any political motivations.
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Re: Re: Re:2
They are no more facts than are recovered memory or facilitated communication or phrenology. Psychology is full of just-so stories, wishful thinking, bad science, and politically motivated results. (As is anything involving fMRI.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psikhushka
Re: Re: Re:3
That you think that recovered memories were as well accepted as most things in modern psychology shows your ignorance. That you think phrenology was ever a part of psychology also shows your ignorance. Dismissing all of psychology because some aspects from a long time ago were later falsified doesn’t refute the entire field. It certainly doesn’t refute a different field entirely like neurology, which also disputes your assertion that transgender people’s claims are false. That some parts of the history of psychology had problems says nothing about the current state of the field.
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Re: Re: Re:4
https://retractionwatch.com/2018/08/29/reader-outcry-prompts-brown-to-retract-press-release-on-trans-teens/
https://retractionwatch.com/2021/11/02/paper-on-how-trans-youth-come-of-age-is-retracted-following-ethical-board-investigation/
https://retractionwatch.com/2020/04/30/journal-retracts-paper-on-gender-dysphoria-after-900-critics-petition/
There can be no science done on transgender issues in this climate. It is purely political.
Re: Re: Re:5
From the first article:
From the second article, which also mentions an ethics investigation and says nothing about anything political about the whole deal:
From the third article, which never asserts the publication’s decision to retract any part of the paper for political reasons:
Needless to say, none of this supports your assertion that the issue is purely political. All of them had issues completely independent from any political issues. It feels like you just read part of the article without actually going through the whole thing.
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Re: Re:
The censoring on Techdirt is to the extent that the site makes possible, namely flagging posts to hide them. I hope you’re not going to make the dictionary argument that it’s not “really” censorship because the posts are still there.
Re: Re: Re:
I mean, if we can still read your posts, you’re not being censored, even if your definition of “censorship” means “getting posts deleted” or “getting booted off of a web site/forum”.
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Re: Re: Re:2
One way to look at it is, if this action were taken by the government, would it violate the 1st Amendment? If so, then it’s censorship and a violation of the free speech rights of the person being censored, even if the action is legal for whomever is doing it, and even if that action is part of the free speech rights of whomever is doing it.
These notions that “it’s not censorship if I’m allowed to do it” and “it’s not censorship if all I’m doing is impeding speech here” are self-serving twaddle that the woke tell themselves as long as the censorship regime is going their way.
Re: Re: Re:3
if someone is thrown out of a meeting for continuously heckling the speaker, is that a violations of the hecklers free speech rights, or protection of the speakers free speech rights, pick one.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Why not both?
Re: Re: Re:5
Because that means you use your rights to violate the rights of others, and ignore the reciprocal part of the rights, and that is granting the same right to others.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Rights are arbitrary creations, not laws of physics. Rights can contradict each other.
Re: Re: Re:7
And the question is how that gets resolved.
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Re: Re: Re:8
If it gets resolved such that a speaker is silenced, then that speaker has been censored.
Re: Re: Re:9
In which case, when two people’s free speech rights conflict with each other, someone is guaranteed to be censored by your logic. Forcing someone to host speech is silencing them just as much as forcing someone to move their speech elsewhere.
Re: Re: Re:10
Yes. I’m glad you understand.
This is why I hope the platforms voluntarily react to criticism by more fullt supporting the free speech rights of their users.
Re: Re: Re:11
I… I’m not sure you understand what I was saying, which is that your logic leads to equal censorship either way (which is not the same as agreeing that your logic is sound and was more to try to argue that the whole thing is somewhat nonsensical…), but whatever. I’m well aware that that is your position.
Re: Re: Re:12
Forcing someone to host speech violates their freedom of speech. Stopping someone from speaking violates their freedom of speech. Ideally, the proposed host would voluntarily allow everyone to speak without viewpoint-based censorship, and then no one’s freedom of speech is violated.
Re: Re: Re:13
One major problem there Skippy…
There is NO viewpoint-base censorship!!!!
I have asked you 1000s of times to cite examples with proof that viewpoints are being “censored” and all I ever get back is silence. Generally you all disappear like a virgin on prom night anytime you are asked to provide verified proof of your assertions.
Not once have you done so. Funny that…
Re: Re: Re:13
And right there you admit moderation doesn’t in any way violate freedom of speech, no matter how much you lie by calling it “viewpoint-based censorship.”
Re: Re: Re:13
Not allowing someone to have their speech be hosted on a particular platform doesn’t stop them from speaking, especially where such content cannot be monetized and there is no other direct consequence for being moderated like this. They are still just as able to speak; they just can’t use that particular platform as a loudspeaker or host for their speech. Freedom of speech doesn’t include the entitlement to reach someone else’s audience (in this case, Twitter’s). Being unable to use a private platform in order to reach that particular platform’s audience (or some segment of it) is not being unable to speak.
I can understand that you aren’t saying that they must host speech they don’t want to (not by force of law, at least), but you are saying that they ought to do so of their own free will, and that I disagree with. I see no reason why Twitter should choose to host the stuff it does not want to host, and the examples you’ve given of stuff you want them to host are either not being removed to begin with (so the point is moot) or not compelling enough for me to say that Twitter should change its policy in that regard.
Re: Re: Re:9
So you admit there’a never any censorship.
Re: Re: Re:
I hope you’re not going to make the dictionary argument that it’s not “really” censorship because the posts are still there.
Yeah, because your perception of being silenced is far more important than the fact that the posts are still there. And being responded to. Which you respond back to.
I can see why you don’t like the argument. It presents a paradox that you can’t get around.
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Re: Re: Re:2
This is the same false and repeatedly struck-down argument that public universities who try to impose “free-speech zones” make.
Re: Re: Re:3
You’re still actively commenting are’t you?
To the same audience that you would have had otherwise?
In the same space as everyone else?
You’re aware that being deliberately obtuse is one of those qualities that contributes to you being an asshole?
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Re: Re: Re:4
You’re still trying to silence opposition to the maximum extent that this site will allow. That it doesn’t let you do anything more than flag and hide is a credit to Techdirt, but none at all to you.
Re: Re: Re:5
And so fucking what?
Why do you think that your rights supersede the rights of the property owner?
If you come to my living room and start calling me a ni&&er, and I kick your ass out the door, how is your right to call me a ni&&er on MY OWN property greater than my right to kick your fucking ass to the curb?
Re: Re: Re:6
Because the right to freedom of speech is clear in the First Amendment, but the right to freedom of association is not. Let’s just pretend that those two concepts aren’t pretty much the same, shall we? 😉
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Re: Re: Re:6
So nothing. I’m just telling you woke ideologues that you’re trying your best to silence and censor opposition. I’m not saying that you can’t do that. I’m not saying you don’t have the right to do that. I’m just saying that doing that abrogates the freedom of speech of the people you’re trying to silence, and you shouldn’t do that.
As usual, you are hiding behind the permission given to you to censor, claiming that it’s not censorship because you have permission. No, it’s still censorship.
Re: Re: Re:7
How is it censorship when you can take your fucking garbage speech to MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of other discussion forums and spew to your hearts content?
That you come here, where you are routinely mocked as being a stupid fucking asshole, and rightfully so, is a YOU PROBLEM.
Again, back to the old adage, if you don’t like it here, you are more than welcome to leave.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Here is fine. I don’t like you, but that’s no reason for me to leave.
Censorship remains censorship even if the speaker can go somewhere else to speak.
And of course, woke ideologues pursue those speakers who go elsewhere and try to silence them there too. For example, the Parler app is still not permitted on the Android Google app store. Every e-mail from Parler is flagged by GMail as spam, no matter how many times I mark such e-mail as not spam. When I create a rule to never mark Parler e-mail as spam, the e-mail goes into my normal inbox, but it is still marked as possible spam.
Re: Re: Re:9
Ummm… no it doesn’t.
If you can speak somewhere else, you are not being censored.
If you can’t speak on Twitter, well tough fucking luck, you’ve done pissed them off enough where they don’t want your toxic bull shit stinking up their service such that other people would want to leave.
Why can’t you fucking assholes get that through your thick fucking skulls that people don’t want to associate with fucking assholes like you. Go somewhere that welcomes fucking assholes and complain there.
But whatever you do, don’t ever think you can come into my private property, act like a fucking asshole and not expect to get your ass kicked to the curb. And no, that is not censoring you, it’s kicking you the fuck off of my private property because you are not welcome.
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Re: Re: Re:10
Umm, yes it does.
Twitter is free to decide what its policies are. Everyone is free to offer their suggestions to Twitter as to what its policies should be. Everyone with wherewithal is free to buy Twitter and run it as they choose.
Understand that everything Twitter is doing for woke gender ideology Florida can do against woke gender ideology.
Re: Re: Re:11
It’s the cruelty isn’t.
You’re not satisfied with allowing people to live their lives however the fuck they want, because you are so afraid of people who don’t fit your “norm”, you want nothing more than to see those people suffer don’t you.
Otherwise, why should you give two fucks about how some person lives their life, whom you’ve never met, will never meet, and will do nothing to harm you.
Why are you so afraid?
Re: Re: Re:12
Why are you so afraid?
Because as society becomes a more diverse and tolerant space, fucktards who have a problem with what doesn’t cencern them feel like they’re being ignored.
And being ignored makes them feel irrelevant. They’re a dying fucking breed because all they know is how to blame a faceless enemy for their shittly lot in life.
They’ll eat themselves once they run out of others to blame.
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Re: Re: Re:13
I’m concerned because a society that affirms lies as truth is a society that will jump off a cliff thinking that it can fly.
I do not want woke gender ideology to be affirmed for the same reason I do not want ivermectin as a cure for COVID-19 to be affirmed. Because they are lies.
Re: Re: Re:14
But how will a trans person, whom you have never met, will never meet, nor will ever harm you, harm you PERSONALLY in such a way you want them to suffer?
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Re: Re: Re:15
That is a ridiculous argument. If I were say that white people should not involve themselves in Black Lives Matter because they are not Black and so are not personally affected, I doubt that you would accept that premise.
A society that affirms lies is corrosive to everyone in it, regardless of whether the particular lie affects them personally.
And of course I do not want trans people to suffer. I simply do not want them to be permitted to impose their false beliefs on people who do not share them, in the same way that religious people are not allowed to force others to affirm their false beliefs. But if the only way a trans person can avoid suffering is by having everyone around them affirm their beliefs, I’m afraid they’re going to be in for a bad time. And even if the people around them do affirm them, physical reality won’t.
Re: Re: Re:16
As I’ve already said, you have not demonstrated that these are lies, nor that trans people are forcing others to affirm their beliefs or are imposing their beliefs. It has also been pointed out to you that some of the things you oppose are to stop suffering without creating more suffering. Your denial of reality doesn’t help your case.
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Re: Re: Re:17
No one is entitled to force anyone else to act to alleviate their suffering. The bum in the street might feel better if he could force me to buy him a bottle of whiskey, but I’m not going to do that.
I don’t have to demonstrate that someone else’s beliefs are lies in order to call them lies. We are all allowed to believe as we like, and we are none of us allowed to coerce the beliefs of others.
So I can call Hindu beliefs about the sacredness of cows a lie, and even though Hindus and vegans might be distraught over the plight of beef cattle, I am under no obligation to stop eating hamburgers.
Re: Re: Re:18
Uh, yes they are. Public schools, places of public accommodation, and employers are required to make reasonable accommodations for a variety of things, including mental disorders (and while transgender people are not necessarily mentally ill, gender dysphoria is a mental disorder) as well as physical disabilities.
More to the point, there is another side you aren’t getting…
Right, so, that is not remotely the same thing as what transgender people are asking.
For one thing, regarding single-sex spaces, the only ones “required” to actively do anything affirmative are… public schools, places of public accommodation, and employers, and they are already required to make reasonable accommodations for various conditions like this. The people using the restrooms don’t have to change their behavior or speech on the matter or take any affirmative actions at all for transgender people to get their desired outcome of being in the restroom they’re safest in.
Second, the other issue is when you take affirmative actions that increase suffering, and that’s a completely different ball game. Deliberately misgendering/deadnaming someone outside of very specific contexts is an affirmative action that increases the suffering of others. It is established in our society that one should endeavor to avoid increasing suffering by affirmative action.
In a free-speech sense? Technically, no, you don’t have to do that.
In an argument like this? Yes, you do have to demonstrate that the beliefs are lies to be able to argue on that basis. And in this case, you have made multiple arguments that are predicated on the assertion that they are false/lies (not just that you personally don’t agree with them but that they are factually false), so if that assertion is unproven, the argument fails.
Which is not what anyone is trying to do, nor have you demonstrated that anyone is trying to do that.
Yes, but you are essentially arguing that Hindus have to enter the burger place (which is only for non-vegans) and not the vegan place (which is only for vegans) on the basis that Hindus aren’t really vegan and so don’t have a valid reason to not be in the burger shop or to be in the vegan place, and there is a taboo held by some (not all) vegans against letting non-vegans enter their special place. Also, in this scenario, Hindus have a statistically strong tendency to be victims of violence or even get killed while in burger places, but this doesn’t happen while they are in vegan places.
Sure, this analogy is far from perfect, but at least it addresses the actual argument here.
Re: Re: Re:14
But I am all but certain that you bought into Trump’s big lie that led to an attempted insurrection and destruction of or government!
Re: Re: Re:15
I neither voted for Trump nor believe that he won the election. I believe that Republicans are filth, and those who voted against certifying the election the night after the insurrection are traitors.
And yet, woke ideology is obviously and ridiculously wrong. It’s a funny old world.
Re: Re: Re:16
Why don’t you just use “boogeyman” as that is about the extent of what you are saying.
Re: Re: Re:16
You have yet to present evidence of woke ideology that is:
Regarding transgender people and sports, for example, neither 1 nor 3 hold, though it could be wrong. Regarding men not being able to become women, neither 1 nor 2 hold, while 3 depends on a variety of things, including definitions of words and the state of technology. Regarding opposition to misgendering and deadnaming, 3 doesn’t hold. Regarding transgender people using their preferred single-sex restrooms/locker rooms, 3 definitely doesn’t hold, while 1 likely doesn’t hold. And so on. In order to constitute evidence for the claim you made that is relevant to the topic at hand, all 3 conditions have to be met.
So yeah, can you back up this assertion?
Re: Re: Re:14
Wait, isn’t the United States the land of personal freedom?
Isn’t that what all you fuckers were saying when it came down to mask mandates, lockdowns and vaccine mandates? That you had the personal freedom in this country to not wear masks, not get the vaccine and not stay at home during a deadly pandemic that has killed over 1,000,000 Americans?
So why now do you think you can dictate what personal freedoms exist for other people?
I could care less if people think they can jump off a cliff and fly, if that’s how they want to live their life then so be it. You can’t regulate / legislate stupidity away.
There’s also the whole survival of the fittest. So if people jump off a cliff thinking they can fly and actually try it, it will just take those stupid genes out of the gene pool.
Re: Re: Re:15
Yes, everyone should have the freedom to believe and act as they wish, provided it doesn’t interfere with other people doing the same. That means that men who delusionally believe they’re women should not be allowed to force their way into women’s single-sex spaces. Woke gender ideologues should not be allowed to teach their ideology as truth in public schools. Public (and ideally, also private) employers should not have political officers that enforce ideological conformity on pain of firing.
Re: Re: Re:16
And what medical degree do you have that allows you to come to the conclusion that people are delusional?
Do you not accept the fact that everybody is not like you?
Just because somebody falls outside of some preconceived notion of what is or is not normal, maybe it’s time to re-visit why you feel that way?
It sounds to me like you have some female tendencies and that makes you angry because you don’t know how to deal with it.
Re: Re: Re:16
Which transgender people aren’t actually doing, sooooo…
Again, to the extent that that could be interpreted in a way that references transwomen, you have not demonstrated that it’s a delusion, the consensus among experts is that it’s not, and you have failed to provide clear evidence that the experts are wrong on the matter. Also, transwomen are (typically) male, not men. They are under no delusion that they are female.
That is not interfering with anyone else believing and acting as they wish, and you have failed to present a compelling reason why they should not. You have also failed to adequately distinguish this from allowing black people to enter white-only spaces. This is just your opinion that is not based upon demonstrable facts, sound arguments, and/or any facts most people would agree with, and it is also inconsistent with your opinions on other issues.
I’m still waiting for you to present evidence that this is actually happening at all. So far, the only evidence you have provided haven’t actually demonstrated this claim even if true.
Public, yes. Private… not so much. Additionally, I fail to see how this relates to other claims in this discussion; it appears to be irrelevant.
Re: Re: Re:14
At least you admit your desire to destroy society.
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Re: Re: Re:13
I’m concerned because a society that affirms lies as truth is a society that will jump off a cliff thinking that it can fly. I do not want woke gender ideology to be affirmed for the same reason I do not want [i________n] as a cure for [C______9] to be affirmed. Because they are lies.
(Trying this way because my spelled-out version seems to be trapped in an actual comment blocker.)
Re: Re: Re:14
And no, there is no grand conspiracy here censoring your posts that have the words ivermectin and covid in them.
Re: Re: Re:14
Nope. Just the same ol’ spam filter, after which it got reviewed and was allowed to be posted.
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Re: Re: Re:15
I hadn’t hit it before. I guess it’s more proof that “moderation at scale is impossible” even at this small scale.
Re: Re: Re:16
I can believe that. Someone else recently had a similar experience. And yes, moderation at scale is impossible even at fairly small scales.
Re: Re: Re:12
Maybe he’s afraid that he’ll take a really attractive woman to bed only to find out she’s got a penis once she’s undressed. He’s so horrible to make trans women understand that they don’t have a chance with him. 😉
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Re: Re: Re:13
“He”.
Re: Re: Re:14
No, “she”.
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Re: Re: Re:15
It’s been a long time since I saw The Crying Game. Anyway, “he”.
Re: Re: Re:16
Do you really want to get into this? Naughty Autie referring to a hypothetical transwoman as “she” doesn’t force you to affirm that the pronoun is being used accurately, so it’s not forcing anyone’s beliefs on you even by your overly broad definition.
If this is just for a joke akin to The Argument Clinic, though…
“She”
Re: Re: Re:10
You’ll have to forgive Hyman for his ignorance—his all-consuming hatred for trans people (and their cisgender allies) has made him a narrow-minded dumbass who thinks “woke [x] ideologists” are trying to take over schools and sports and churches and whatever else he feels is under threat from the nefarious Trans Agenda™ that his conservative brethren keep talking about between their advocacy for the “Great Replacement” myth and their refusal to do nothing about kids being shot dead in schools.
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Re: Re: Re:11
Woke gender ideologues are trying to force women to allow men into women’s single-sex spaces. They are trying to have schools hide children’s gender delusions from their parents. Where they can force overt affirmation of their ideology, they do so. Where they can’t, they try to do the same stealthily, such as asking for “sex assigned at birth”, which, no matter how it is answered, makes the responder falsely affirm that sex is assigned.
The 2nd Amendment provides a personal right to bear arms. The 2nd Amendment should be repealed.
If woke ideologues don’t like the Great Replacement myth, they should stop crowing that “demographic change” will eventually give them what they want.
Re: Re: Re:12
No, we won’t.
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Re: Re: Re:13
I know.
Re: Re: Re:14
You will either be assimilated, or be replaced. Nobody here will be sorry to see you go. Ask Stephen Stone, or bhull, or Toom.
Your days as a straight white male are numbered, Hyman.
Re: Re: Re:12
No, it’s trying to “force” places that have public restrooms and locker rooms to allow transwomen use the same ones that ciswomen can. Women don’t have actual control over the issue. Also, so what? This isn’t a radical idea.
First, [citation needed]
Second, so what?
[citation needed]
Also, for the record, neither of the previous claims fit this.
It is assigned in a legal sense at birth the same way a name, mother, and father are assigned at birth. It may usually (though not always) correspond with the actual physiological and genetic sex of the person, but that doesn’t mean it’s not assigned.
And, again, so what?
Okay… How is that relevant?
They… don’t… The observation that demographics change and may do so in a way that causes previous minorities to become majorities is not “crowing” about anything.
Re: Re: Re:13
Y’know, it’s a bit funny in a sad and depressing way: Hyman’s political beliefs require him to hate. They require him to hate “woke ideologists” and trans people and anyone who allies with those two groups. They require him to express that hate whenever possible, even if he does so in a cold, clinically detached way so he sounds more like a scientist studying a bunch of freaks than a person with actual feelings and emotions and sympathies.
All that makes me think of is two related questions:
I doubt Hyman gives a shit about the first one, but boy, I’d love to hear his answer to the second one. Politics should be less about hurting people and more about trying to help as many people as possible—but Hyman doesn’t care how many trans people get hurt as a result of the kind of rhetoric he and his transphobic brethren spew on a daily basis. Hell, I’d wager that he reads the obituaries of trans people with a great deal of satisfaction.
If your religion requires you to hate someone, you need a new religion; if your politics requires you to hurt someone, you need better politics.
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Re: Re: Re:14
Love will win. That means Hyman will lose. I think I’ll write him into an anal cock vore fanfic to celebrate.
Re: Re: Re:15
Chuck Tingle? Is that you?
Re: Re: Re:15
Thanks for the mental image that I really did not need. Could someone pass the brain bleach? I’d like to forget about this. I don’t care about your fetishes, but I also don’t want to think about them or hear about them outside of somewhere that caters to such things.
Re: Re: Re:16
ProTip: If you see that troll again, flag ’em and move on. They’re easy to spot, since they write shit they think sex-positive “leftists” say (e.g., advocacy for rape and pedophilia) and go out of their way to link their bullshit to “leftists” by inserting slogans such as “love wins” into their tripe. They’re not worth engaging even to troll them back.
Re: Re: Re:17
That you think I am trolling is immaterial. A straight white male gets the blame, not me. You won’t stop the alternative tastes of Rule 34 being proliferated. If anything, it demonstrates the diversity of queer people that straight bigots could never even dream of comprehending.
Re: Re: Re:18
On a site that is intended to host or discuss such content specifically or which is intended to host creative works and doesn’t explicitly ban it, I have no problem with such fetishes being discussed.
This isn’t such a place. When I come to this site, I don’t want to think about fetishes at all, even the ones I actually like. If I want to hear about such things, I’ll go to DeviantArt or Pixiv or PornHub or something, not Tech Dirt.
You also discuss forcing bigots to participate in such acts or insist that they will be forced to not be straight. That isn’t love winning. That’s being the strawman that homophobes and prudes attack all the time.
Re: Re: Re:19
You can’t hold back being fabulous. Yaoi fangirls, lipstick lesbians, people like us have been held back, held down, unable to live the pursuit of happiness like any other person because straight people controlled the narrative. That time is coming to an end. Homophobes either see the truth and stand besides us or get outed as the pedophiles they were all along. Even celebrities like She-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named stood no chance.
Between homophobes and prudes and the strawman you think I’m being, who would you rather defend? Hyman Rosen will not stand up to the test of time. They can either wave our flags or die as homophobes.
Re: Re: Re:19
There used to be a time when if gays went out holding hands in public or kissed, pearl clutchers would wail and scream and complain “what about the children”. They’d claim that they did not go to public spaces to see that gay people exist.
Now those barriers have been broken. Not only are we able to openly show these behaviors to children, we created content for these children to learn how to truly express themselves, the way Steven Universe does. We teach them the truth about their bodies, not the lies their close-minded conservative parents tell them. It makes them uncomfortable, but only so far as it exposes them for the bigoted breeders they are, incapable of seeing past Darwinian instincts.
More barriers will follow. It is inevitable.
Re: Re: Re:19
And… crickets. As I thought, you can’t stand up to true love.
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Re: Re: Re:16
https://japantoday.com/category/features/health/expert-monkeypox-likely-spread-by-sex-at-2-raves-in-europe
Also
https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/sam-brinton-kinky-joe-biden-puttin-on-the-dog/
Re: Re: Re:17
HOW WAS THAT SUPPOSED TO HELP!?
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Re: Re: Re:18
Gay male sexual perversion spreads a great deal of disease, and I was reading to the (probably gay) anal vore story comment.
And although I will now be labeled as homophobic too, that’s not what I meant – I’m androphobic, not homophobic. All men are pigs, and even those that aren’t have what we used to jokingly call “pig potential”.
There are a certain percentage of men who will have indiscriminate and promiscuous sex in weird and inventive ways with anyone who will have them. For straight men, this behavior is tempered by the much smaller percentage of women who want to associate with such men, so that partners are more difficult to find. But when those men are gay and find each other, all bets are off, and when disease takes hold, it spreads rapidly among those men.
Re: Re: Re:19
That’s why we place a lot of emphasis on harm prevention. Anal vore is entirely possible and acceptable if you overlook silly limitations like conservative taboos, because they’re too busy clutching pearls instead of accepting expressions of love on a level that transcends primal humanity.
You may not think you’re a homophobe, and religious people often don’t, but that’s just lying to yourselves.
Re: Re: Re:20
As with masking and vaccination, some people place a lot of emphasis on harm reduction and others don’t. There is no universal “we” who are always careful. I read And The Band Played On many years ago, and many of the actions it described were a disaster waiting to happen, which it then did.
Re: Re: Re:21
Those of us who are careful protect those who aren’t. Homophobes, transphobes, and really anyone who disagrees with us want the opposite. They want consequences, real or imaginary, upon those who don’t fit their twisted, bigoted view of the natural world. We’re putting a stop to that.
Re: Re: Re:22
It’s not going to work. Even if you managed to stop the spread of physical disease, conservatives are always going to be able to find examples of anomie and discontent and argue that non-traditional lifestyles are a disservice to humanity and civilization. That was their slippery slope argument against same-sex marriage, and unfortunately, the woke gender ideology movement is providing evidence for their point.
As a believer in freedom, I have no interest in trying to stop anyone from living the life they want, but that’s different from then trying to force people to affirm that those ways are true or good. (Same-sex marriage is true and good, which is why the woke ideologues of that generation opposed it as “heteronormative”.)
Re: Re: Re:23
We got gay marriage approved. We got the cure for AIDS. If you believe in true love, anything and everything can be, and will be possible.
Re: Re: Re:19
They are, and they do. It’s not a joke. It’s been proven to happen over and over again. Just ask Oprah Winfrey.
As the natural order should be. See, even you can be rehabilitated.
Re: Re: Re:19
The same applies equally well to sexual act in general, and it depends on whether protection was used. No need to single gay males or perversion out specifically.
Well, first off, they were pretty explicit that it was gay, not just probably. More importantly, this is an act that is physically impossible, so discussing the potential repercussions of a purely fictional act is not really a great argument.
How is that better? Seriously, that is a terrible defense. You’re still a bigot either way.
Same goes for women. So what?
No. It’s tempered by the fact that what people are willing to do with a real person who doesn’t explicitly ask for it is often very different from what they fantasize about or are willing to do with a partner who doesn’t ask for it unprompted. It is also tempered by the fact that, since most of the ultra-religious for whom sexual perversion/promiscuity of all kinds are going to be in a heterosexual relationship (if in a relationship at all), most of the people who would be opposed to such behavior so firmly are also going to be straight or in a heterosexual relationship, which skews the numbers.
Only to the extent that they generally don’t have religion enforcing such strict prudishness that many straight relationships do. Lesbians are much the same way. As far as what they actually like in absence of these religious taboos, I know of no evidence that there is any significant difference in this regard between gay-men relationships, lesbian relationships, and straight relationships.
Replace “[gay] men” with “sexually promiscuous people who don’t use protection”, and this will be true. The exact sex act(s) used and the sex/gender of those involved are irrelevant. It’s more of the “multiple partners” thing combined with the “no protection” thing.
Most importantly, I fail to see how any of this matters here.
Re: Re: Re:20
Sexually transmitted diseases are a bogeymen wielded to discourage acts of true love between those of the same gender, or those without. The truth is that the biggest sexually transmitted disease is the burden a woman is forced to carry for nine months. Lesbians and gays have no such restriction, and that is why we’ve been historically put down for so long.
We’re working on that.
Hyman discusses it because Hyman desperately wants anal vore to be a point of contention, the same way furries and asexuals continue to be discriminated against because straight people want them to be boring. The truth is that we don’t hurt anyone. But disagree with us, and we will leverage everything we have to change your mind.
Re: Re: Re:20
The term “gay” meant “carefree” in the sense that gays were exempt from social norms. The truth is that we perceive the world from a higher plane of existence that transcends the physical needs and traditions of close-minded bottom-dwellers, like the idea you need to be a progenitor a wailing, defecating sack of cells after a woman carries it for nine months, costing valuable resources on the planet and being a nuisance in general. We understand that a furkid is all the parental joy any decent human would ever need. Religion tries to hold us accountable for terms and standards none of us asked for because straight white men feel the need to exert control over everyone. That’s why we stood with miners, women, and anyone marginalized by the patriarchy. We are the true way.
Re: Re: Re:16
True love wins. Every time. Hyman Rosen can’t stop us.
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Re: Re: Re:14
My politics lead me to disparage those people who are trying to take away other people’s freedom and ability to live life in peace.
So I disparage woke ideologues who demand affirmation of lies, ad woke gender ideologues who want to force women to allow men into their single-sex spaces.
So I disparage woke ideologues who are soft on crime, and refuse to prosecute arsonists, rioters, looters, and thieves, do not keep arrested criminals with long records locked up before trial, do not allow judges to use discretion about who might be dangerous, and expend enormous effort to prevent convicted murderers from being executed.
So I disparage crazed, stinking, drug-addled, possibly dangerous bums and their advocates, who turn city streets and subways into filthy, crime-ridden cesspools.
So I disparage the Republican filth who would deny women (only!) the ability to abort their pregnancies as they choose.
So I disparage the Republican filth who would censor books in libraries and bookstores based on their viewpoint.
And so on.
Re: Re: Re:15
And one day My politics lead me to disparage those people who are trying to take away other people’s freedom and ability to live life in peace.
[Hallucinates facts contrary to evidence]
Re: Re: Re:15
Disparaging yourself that much is unhealthy. You should seek help for that.
Re: Re: Re:16
If Hyman Rosen will not be rehabilitated, shaming Hyman will be the only option.
Re: Re: Re:15 You forced my hand when you said this shit.
Then why aren’t you disparaging the people who are trying to destroy trans people’s freedom and ability to live life in peace?
Re: Re: Re:16
We’ll get Hyman there.
If Hyman won’t assimilate, we will humiliate.
Re: Re: Re:16
Hyman must be a vampire, to be so utterly lacking in self-reflection.
Re: Re: Re:14
In Hyman’s defense(?), he doesn’t appear to be religious himself, so I don’t think his religion is what leads him to his conclusions. I think it’s reductive and lends needless support to apologists to assert that anyone who is bigoted or thinks a certain way (aside from thinking that God does exist) cannot be an atheist as atheists are very diverse in ideologies.
His worldview and ideology are a completely different story. Those are fair game here.
Ironically, I actually am religious, and my religious beliefs compel me to call out his bigotry, and my ideology compels me to ask him to support his claims. Usually, it’d be the other way around, with the atheist calling out a religious person’s bigotry or asking them to support their claims.
Re: Re: Re:15
Hence why I said he probably doesn’t give a shit about the first question. I left it in anyway because religion and politics do tend to intertwine—e.g., my agnostic atheism intertwines with my political beliefs in re: the separation of church and state.
Re: Re: Re:16
They are also both belief systems, and in both belief trumps truth.
Re: Re: Re:5
You’re still trying to silence opposition to the maximum extent that this site will allow.
Opposition to what exactly? Complaints about being silenced from someone I’m directly responding to? If the reality of that is inconvenient for your argument, the problem is your argument.
Re: Re: Re:5
You’re still actively commenting are’t you?
To the same audience that you would have had otherwise?
In the same space as everyone else?
Tell me more how you’ve been censored.
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Re: Re: Re:6
You are using the flagging system to do whatever you can to disrupt speech with which you disagree. Fortunately, that isn’t very much, but you don’t get credit for being a nuisance rather than a full-on censor when it’s the site that restricts you to being only a nuisance.
Re: Re: Re:7
We are flagging you but we’re still arguing with you and we can still see your full comments.
You are not just an asshole and a troll but a whiny baby. If you think that’s censorship, you must live a life of luxury.
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Re: Re: Re:8
Not luxury exactly, but pretty good comfort.
Woke ideologues not only want to censor speech that opposes them, they want to be lauded as being in favor of free speech. Since woke ideology regularly ignores reality, that’s not surprising.
Re: Re: Re:9
It was once against reality for a woman to love another woman.
We changed reality. We broke the monopoly that straight ideologues unjustly enriched themselves with and forged a more inclusive, loving future that fools like you continue to disparage in the name of toxic masculinity.
Your time will come. You can either admit to the truth, or perish in the annals of history as a villain.
Re: Re: Re:7
You’re still actively commenting are’t you?
To the same audience that you would have had otherwise?
In the same space as everyone else?
Tell me more how you’ve been censored.
Re: Re: Re:
Even by your broad definition, it’s not censorship. Nor is it censorship under any sane definition of the term. The post are there, and anyone who wants to read them can do so easily. How is that remotely censorship?
Re:
And yet, here you are.
Re:
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Amount vs. Importance
Plainly very little content moderation has to do with politics. However, some does: case in point, the suppression of all posts mentioning the New York Post report on Hunter Biden’s laptop, because Trump.
A survey of Biden voters suggests that 16% of them were unaware of the content of that report (which I remind you was based on Hunter-Biden-generated content in the laptop, not Russian disinformation) and moreover would have voted differently had they known.
Very little has to do with politics, but enough to swing a national election does, and that’s a problem, unless of course you support censorship on behalf of whatever political tendency is driving most of the small part of content moderation that does involve politics.
Re:
How do you know, with the absolute and unyielding certainty of God Herself, that Twitter blocked posts about that article based only and specifically on political considerations for Joe Biden instead of the “hacked materials” policy Twitter had in place before the article went up?
Re:
Why do you have to fucking make shit up?
There was no suppression of ALL POSTS mentioning the NYP report.
The only post that was suppressed was the NY Post’s own Tweet with the link to their story.
Also, it was removed because it violated Twitter’s stupid policy of hacked documents, that has since been removed.
There were tens of thousands of people talking about the story on Twitter.
So maybe next time, don’t make up shit like that.
Re: Re:
“There were tens of thousands of people talking about the story on Twitter.”
…and still talking about it to this day. Usually in response to the false claims that something untoward happened.
Here’s a hint to the knuckle draggers around here – if a story has got way more attention and coverage than most stories on Twitter, either it wasn’t censored, or the meaning of that word it so weak as to be meaningless in any context. But, given that the right will go on national TV to cry about being “silenced” to an audience of millions when they get a short timeout for breaking the terms of service, definitions of words are not their strong suit.
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Re: Re: Re:
You’re on a site that talks about the Streisand effect at every opportunity. Attempts at censorship that fail are still attempts at censorship.
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But It Wasnt Hacked
“Also, it was removed because it violated Twitter’s stupid policy of hacked documents, that has since been removed.”
But it wasn’t hacked. The DOJ was back channeling Twitter a false story about a hack to get Twitter to suppress the story.
That makes what twitter did even worse because private actors shouldn’t be back channeling with government to suppress speech.
Re:
First, learn to fucking use the reply link!
Second:
Where is your proof that it was the DOJ back channeling to Twitter? Or is that something that you just pulled out of your asshole… like the degrees that you claim to have.
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Re: Re: FEC
Twitter admitted it to the FEC.
“The FEC documents showed that a Twitter executive had demonstrated (in the FEC’s words) that the company had “received official warnings throughout 2020 from federal law enforcement that ‘malign state actors’ might hack and release materials associated with political campaigns and that Hunter Biden might be a target of one such operation,” the Times wrote. The FEC also found “no information that Twitter coordinated” with Biden’s campaign,”
https://gizmodo.com/fec-finds-twitter-blocking-the-hunter-biden-story-wasnt-1847666856
This is one of those catch 22s. Twitter skated on the campaign contribution allegation because they said that they weren’t acting in coordination with the Biden campaign but the with DOJ. Of course the latter is outside of the FEC’s jurisdiction but its a hard question as to which is worse.
Re: Re: Re:
Question: If the “hacked materials” had related to a Trump official (including one of his idiot adult children) and Twitter had reacted the same way, would you be complaining about Twitter’s decision?
The story says Twitter was warned that “ ‘malign state actors’ might hack and release materials associated with political campaigns and that Hunter Biden might be a target of one such operation”. Note that the warning didn’t say Hunter Biden would be the only target or ask Twitter to ignore such warnings if such materials went after the Trump campaign. Twitter received a general warning that mentioned one possible target, then acted on that warning when a story involving that target came to light.
You need to prove Twitter’s actions were driven wholly by political considerations. Can you?
Re: Re: Re:2
Question: If the “hacked materials” had related to a Trump official (including one of his idiot adult children) and Twitter had reacted the same way, would you be complaining about Twitter’s decision?
Yes, he would. In the actual case, Twitter froze the account of the New York Post, whilst taking no action against others discussing the case on the platform. Therefore, in the above hypothetical, Hymen Rosan would complain that the ‘woke idealogues’ at Twitter hadn’t done enough ‘censoring’.
Re: Re: Re:
So you admit you’re just lying again as always.
Re:
If your theory is correct, the Trump DOJ was working against him… interesting.
Re: Re:
Ding ding ding!!!!
He was told this on another thread, and yet somehow, he still doesn’t have a cognizant grasp of a fucking calendar!
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Re: Re: Kennedy?
And dollars to donuts you and most of the regulars on this site think the CIA had a roll in killing Kennedy.
And I’m not saying that is wrong or unreasonable. Its just an incongruent belief to say ‘it was Trumps DOJ’ while you believe that elements in Kennedy’s administration played a role in his assassination.
Re: Re: Re:
Eh, I heard it was a bagel.
Allegedly.
Re: Re: Re:2
Trained by the Cubans.
Everyone forgets that the bagel was trained by the Cubans to offend everyone by insisting that St. Louis-style slicing is a legit form of bagel slicing.
Re: Re: Re:
Nah, they would have used half a dozen shooters in the oval office, who them managed to escape by evading the in depth defenses of the white house.
Re: Re: Re:2
At the risk of creating an anachronism, let’s not forget the flash-bangs. 😉
Re: Re: Re:
Its just an incongruent belief to say ‘it was Trumps DOJ’
Yeah, it must’ve been Biden’s otherwise you’d look pretty fucking stupid, wouldn’t you?
Goddamn dumbass. You people aren’t even living within the same calendar as the rest of us. I was unaware you were down to debating what fucking time it was.
Tell me again about your degrees, you simple motherfucker, you.
Re: Re: Re:
Oh, as if Lee Harvey Oswald, former Marine and veteran, hater of capitalism and known communist had zero reason or skill to shoot Kennedy himself…
Re: Re: Re:
“And dollars to donuts you and most of the regulars on this site think the CIA had a roll in killing Kennedy.”
Ham and cheese or do the CIA prefer a different kind of bread filling?
Re: Re: Re:2
I prefer ham and red onion myself. 😀
Re:
…. hallucinated nobody with a functioning brain, ever.
So not surprising to see from cunty asshole Chozen.
We destroyed J.K. Rowling, Hyman. You’re next.