Musk, Twitter, Why The First Amendment Can’t Resolve Content Moderation (Part I)

from the let's-see-how-that-works-in-practice dept

“Twitter has become the de facto town square,” proclaims Elon Musk. “So, it’s really important that people have both the reality and the perception that they’re able to speak freely within the bounds of the law.” When pressed by TED’s Chris Anderson, he hedged: “I’m not saying that I have all the answers here.” Now, after buying Twitter, his position is less clear: “I am against censorship that goes far beyond the law.” Does he mean either position literally?

Musk wants Twitter to stop making contentious decisions about speech. “[G]oing beyond the law is contrary to the will of the people,” he declares. Just following the First Amendment, he imagines, is what the people want. Is it, though? The First Amendment is far, far more absolutist than Musk realizes. 

Remember Neo-Nazis with burning torches and screaming “the Jews will not replace us!”? The First Amendment required Charlottesville to allow that demonstration. Some of them were arrested and prosecuted for committing acts of violence. One even killed a bystander with his car. The First Amendment permits the government to punish violent conduct but—contrary to what Musk believes—almost none of the speech associated with it. 

The Constitution protects “freedom for the thought that we hate,” as Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes declared in a 1929 dissent that has become the bedrock of modern First Amendment jurisprudence. In most of the places where we speak, the First Amendment does not set limits on what speech the host, platform, proprietor, station, or publication may block or reject. The exceptions are few: actual town squares, company-owned towns, and the like—but not social media, as every court to decide the issue has held

Musk wants to treat Twitter as if it were legally a public forum. A laudable impulse—and of course Musk has every legal right to do that. But does he really want to? His own statements indicate not. And on a practical level, it would not make much sense. Allowing anyone to say anything lawful, or even almost anything lawful, would make Twitter a less useful, less vibrant virtual town square than it is today. It might even set the site on a downward spiral from which it never recovers.

Can Musk have it both ways? Can Twitter help ensure that everyone has a soapbox, however appalling their speech, without alienating both users and the advertisers who sustain the site?  Twitter is already working on a way to do just that—by funding Bluesky—but Musk doesn’t seem interested. Nor does he seem interested in other technical and institutional improvements Twitter could make to address concerns about arbitrary content moderation. None of these reforms would achieve what seems to be Musk’s real goal: politically neutral outcomes. We’ll discuss all this in Part II.

How Much Might Twitter’s Business Model Change?

A decade ago, a Twitter executive famously described the company as “the free speech wing of the free speech party.” Musk may imagine returning to some purer, freer version of Twitter when he says “I don’t care about the economics at all.” But in fact, increasing Twitter’s value as a “town square” will require Twitter to continue striking a careful balance between what individual users can say and creating an environment that so many people want to use so regularly.

User Growth. A traditional public forum (like Lee Park in Charlottesville) is indifferent to whether people choose to use it. Its function is simply to provide a space for people to speak. But if Musk didn’t care how many people used Twitter, he’d buy an existing site like Parler or build a new one. He values Twitter for the same reason any network is valuable: network effects. Digital markets have always been ruled by Metcalfe’s Law: the impact of any network is equal to the square of the number of nodes in the network. 

No, not all “nodes” are equal. Twitter is especially popular among journalists, politicians and certain influencers. Yet the site has only 39.6 million active daily U.S. users. That may make Twitter something like ten times larger than Parler, but it’s only one-seventh the size of Facebook—and only the world’s fifteenth-largest social network. To some in the “very online” set, Twitter may seem like everything, but 240 million Americans age 13+ don’t use Twitter every day. Quadrupling Twitter’s user base would make the site still only a little more than half as large as Facebook, but Metcalfe’s law suggests that would make Twitter roughly sixteen times more impactful than it is today. 

Of course, trying to maximize user growth is exactly what Twitter has been doing since 2006. It’s a much harder challenge than for Facebook or other sites premised on existing connections. Getting more people engaged on Twitter requires making them comfortable with content from people they don’t know offline. Twitter moderates harmful content primarily to cultivate a community where the timid can express themselves, where moms and grandpas feel comfortable, too. Very few Americans want to be anywhere near anything like the Charlottesville rally—whether offline or online.

User Engagement. Twitter’s critics allege the site highlights the most polarizing, sensationalist content because it drives engagement on the site. It’s certainly possible that a company less focused on its bottom line might change its algorithms to focus on more boring content. Whether that would make the site more or less useful as a town square is the kind of subjective value judgment that would be difficult to justify under the First Amendment if the government attempted to legislate it.

But maximizing Twitter’s “town squareness” means more than maximizing “time on site”—the gold standard for most sites. Musk will need to account for users’ willingness to actually engage in dialogue on the site. 

Short of leaving Twitter altogether, overwhelmed and disgusted users may turn off notifications for “mentions” of them, or limit who can reply to their tweets. As Aaron Ross Powell notes, such a response “effectively turns Twitter from an open conversation to a set of private group chats the public can eavesdrop on.” It might be enough, if Musk truly doesn’t care about the economics, for Twitter to be a place where anything lawful goes and users who don’t like it can go elsewhere. But the realities of running a business are obviously different from those of traditional, government-owned public fora. If Musk wants to keep or grow Twitter’s user base, and maintain high engagement levels, there are a plethora of considerations he’ll need to account for.

Revenue. Twitter makes money by making users comfortable with using the site—and advertisers comfortable being associated with what users say. This is much like the traditional model of any newspaper. No reputable company would buy ads in a newspaper willing to publish everything lawful. These risks are much, much greater online. Newspapers carefully screen both writers before they’re hired and content before it’s published. Digital publishers generally can’t do likewise without ruining the user experience. Instead, users help a mixture of algorithms and human content moderators flag content potentially toxic to users and advertisers. 

Even without going as far as Musk says he wants to, alternative “free speech” platforms like Gab and Parler have failed to attract any mainstream advertisers. By taking Twitter private, Musk could relieve pressure to maximize quarterly earnings. He might be willing to lose money but the lenders financing roughly half the deal definitely aren’t. The interest payments on their loans could exceed Twitter’s 2021 earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, and amortization. How will Twitter support itself? 

Protected Speech That Musk Already Wants To Moderate

As Musk’s analysts examine whether the purchase is really worth doing, the key question they’ll face is just what it would mean to cut back on content moderation. Ultimately, Musk will find that the First Amendment just doesn’t offer the roadmap he thinks it does. Indeed, he’s already implicitly conceded that by saying he wants to moderate certain kinds of content in ways the First Amendment wouldn’t allow. 

Spam. “If our twitter bid succeeds,” declared Musk in announcing his takeover plans, “we will defeat the spam bots or die trying!” The First Amendment, if he were using it as a guide for moderation, would largely thwart him.

Far from banning spam, as Musk proposes, the 2003 CAN-SPAM Act merely requires email senders to, most notably, include unsubscribe options, honor unsubscribe requests, and accurately label both subject and sender. Moreover, the law defines spam narrowly: “the commercial advertisement or promotion of a commercial product or service.” Why such a narrow approach? 

Even unsolicited commercial messages are protected by the First Amendment so long as they’re truthful. Because truthful commercial speech receives only “intermediate scrutiny,” it’s easier for the government to justify regulating it. Thus, courts have also protected the constitutional right of public universities to block commercial solicitations. 

But, as courts have noted, “the more general meaning” of “spam” “does not (1) imply anything about the veracity of the information contained in the email, (2) require that the entity sending it be properly identified or authenticated, or (3) require that the email, even if true, be commercial in character.” Check any spam folder and you’ll find plenty of messages that don’t obviously qualify as commercial speech, which the Supreme Court has defined as speech which does “no more than propose a commercial transaction.” 

Some emails in your spam folder come from non-profits, political organizations, or other groups. Such non-commercial speech is fully protected by the First Amendment. Some messages you signed up for may inadvertently wind up in your spam filter; plaintiffs regularly sue when their emails get flagged as spam. When it’s private companies like ISPs and email providers making such judgments, the case is easy: the First Amendment broadly protects their exercise of editorial judgment. Challenges to public universities’ email filters have been brought by commercial spammers, so the courts have dodged deciding whether email servers constituted public fora. These courts have implied, however, that if such taxpayer-funded email servers were public fora, email filtering of non-commercial speech would have to be content- and viewpoint-neutral, which may be impossible.

Anonymity. After declaring his intention to “defeat the spam bots,” Musk added a second objective of his plan for Twitter: “And authenticate all real humans.” After an outpouring of concern, Musk qualified his position:

Whatever “balance” Musk has in mind, the First Amendment doesn’t tell him how to strike it. Authentication might seem like a content- and viewpoint-neutral way to fight tweet-spam, but it implicates a well-established First Amendment right to anonymous and pseudonymous speech.

Fake accounts plague most social media sites, but they’re a bigger problem for Twitter since, unlike Facebook, it’s not built around existing offline connections and Twitter doesn’t even try to require users to use their real names. A 2021 study estimated that “between 9% and 15% of active Twitter accounts are bots” controlled by software rather than individual humans. Bots can have a hugely disproportionate impact online. They’re more active than humans and can coordinate their behavior, as that study noted, to “manufacture fake grassroots political support, promote terrorist propaganda and recruitment, manipulate the stock market, and disseminate rumors and conspiracy theories.” Given Musk’s concerns about “cancel culture,” he should recognize that online harassment, especially targeting employers and intimate personal connections, as a way that lawful speech can be wielded against lawful speech.

When Musk talks about “authenticating” humans, it’s not clear what he means. Clearly, “authentication” means more than simply requiring captchas to make it harder for machines to create Twitter accounts. Those have been shown to be defeatable by spambots. Surely, he doesn’t mean making real names publicly visible, as on Facebook. After all, pseudonymous publications have always been a part of American political discourse. Presumably, Musk means Twitter would, instead of merely requiring an email address, somehow verify and log the real identity behind each account. This isn’t really a “middle ground”: pseudonyms alone won’t protect vulnerable users from governments, Twitter employees, or anyone else who might be able to access Twitter’s logs. However such logs are protected, the mere fact of collecting such information would necessarily chill speech by those concerned of being persecuted for their speech. Such authentication would clearly be unconstitutional if a government were to do it.

“Anonymity is a shield from the tyranny of the majority,” ruled the Supreme Court in McIntyre v. Ohio Elections Comm’n (1995). “It thus exemplifies the purpose behind the Bill of Rights and of the First Amendment in particular: to protect unpopular individuals from retaliation . . . at the hand of an intolerant society.” As one lower court put it, “the free exchange of ideas on the Internet is driven in large part by the ability of Internet users to communicate anonymously.” 

We know how these principles apply to the Internet because Congress has already tried to require websites to “authenticate” users. The Child Online Protection Act (COPA) of 1998 required websites to age-verify users before they could access material that could be “harmful to minors.” In practice, this meant providing a credit card, which supposedly proved the user was likely an adult. Courts blocked the law and, after a decade of litigation, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit finally struck it down in 2008. The court held that “many users who are not willing to access information non-anonymously will be deterred from accessing the desired information.” The Supreme Court let that decision stand. The United Kingdom now plans to implement its own version of COPA, but First Amendment scholars broadly agree: age verification and user authentication are constitutional non-starters in the United States.

What kind of “balance” might the First Amendment allow Twitter to strike? Clearly, requiring all users to identify themselves wouldn’t pass muster. But suppose Twitter required authentication only for those users who exhibit spambot-like behavior—say, coordinating tweets with other accounts that behave like spambots. This would be different from COPA, but would it be constitutional? Probably not. Courts have explicitly recognized a right to engage send non-commercial spam (unsolicited messages), for example: “were the Federalist Papers just being published today via e-mail,” warned the Virginia Supreme Court in striking down a Virginia anti-spam law, “that transmission by Publius would violate the statute.” 

Incitement. In his TED interview, Musk readily agreed with Anderson that “crying fire in a movie theater” “would be a crime.” No metaphor has done more to sow confusion about the First Amendment. It comes from the Supreme Court’s 1919 Schenck decision, which upheld the conviction of the head of the U.S. Socialist Party for distributing pamphlets criticizing the military draft. Advocating obstructing military recruiting, held the Court, constituted a “clear and present danger.” Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes mentioned “falsely shouting fire in a theatre” as a rhetorical flourish to drive the point home.

But Holmes revised his position just months later when he dissented in a similar case, Abrams v. United States. “[T]he best test of truth,” he wrote, “is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” That concept guides First Amendment decisions to this day—not Schenk’s vivid metaphor. Musk wants the open marketplace of ideas Holmes lauded in Abrams—yet also, somehow, Schenck’s much lower standard. 

In Brandenburg v. Ohio (1969), the Court finally overturned Schenck: the First Amendment does not “permit a State to forbid or proscribe advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.” Thus, a Klansman’s openly racist speech and calls for a march on Washington were protected by the First Amendment. The Brandenburg standard has proven almost impossible to satisfy when speakers are separated from their listeners in both space and time. Even the Unabomber Manifesto wouldn’t qualify—which is why The New York Times and The Washington Post faced no legal liability when they agreed to publish the essay back in 1995 (to help law enforcement stop the serial mail-bomber). 

Demands that Twitter and other social media remove “harmful” speech—such as COVID misinformation—frequently invoke Schenck. Indeed, while many expect Musk will reinstate Trump on Twitter, his embrace of Schenck suggests the opposite: Trump could easily have been convicted of incitement under Schenck’s “clear and present danger” standard.

Self-Harm. Musk’s confusion over incitement may also extend to its close cousin: speech encouraging, or about, self-harm. Like incitement, “speech integral to criminal conduct” isn’t constitutionally protected, but, also like incitement, courts have defined that term so narrowly that the vast majority of content that Twitter currently moderates under its suicide and self-harm policy is protected by the First Amendment.

William Francis Melchert-Dinkel, a veteran nurse with a suicide fetish, claimed to have encouraged dozens of strangers to kill themselves and to have succeeded at least five times. Using fake profiles, Melchert-Dinkel entered into fake suicide pacts (“i wish [we both] could die now while we are quietly in our homes tonite:)”), invoked his medical experience to advise hanging over other methods (“in 7 years ive never seen a failed hanging that is why i chose that”), and asked to watch his victims hang themselves. He was convicted of violating Minnesota’s assisted suicide law in two cases, but the Minnesota Supreme Court voided the statute’s prohibitions on “advis[ing]” and “encourag[ing]” suicide. Only for providing “step-by-step instructions” on hanging could Melchert-Dinkel ultimately be convicted.

In another case, the Massachusetts Supreme Court upheld the manslaughter conviction of Michelle Carter; “she did not merely encourage the victim,” her boyfriend, also age 17, “but coerced him to get back into the truck, causing his death” from carbon monoxide poisoning. Like Melchert-Dinkel, Carter provided specific instructions on completing suicide: “knowing the victim was inside the truck and that the water pump was operating — … she could hear the sound of the pump and the victim’s coughing — [she] took no steps to save him.”

Such cases are the tiniest tip of a very large iceberg of self-harm content. With nearly one in six teens intentionally hurting themselves annually, researchers found 1.2 million Instagram posts in 2018 containing “one of five popular hashtags related to self-injury: #cutting, #selfharm, #selfharmmm, #hatemyself and #selfharmawareness.” More troubling, the rate of such posts nearly doubled across that year. Unlike suicide or assisted suicide, self-harm, even by teenagers, isn’t illegal, so even supplying direct instructions about how to do it it would be constitutionally protected speech. With the possible exception of direct user-to-user instructions about suicide, the First Amendment would require a traditional public forum to allow all this speech. It wouldn’t even allow Twitter to restrict access to self-harm content to adults—for the same reasons COPA’s age-gating requirement for “harmful-to-minors” content was unconstitutional. 

Trade-Offs in Moderating Other Forms of Constitutionally Protected Content

So it’s clear that Musk doesn’t literally mean Twitter users should be able to “speak freely within the bounds of the law.” He clearly wants to restrict some speech in ways that the government could not in a traditional public forum. His invocation of the First Amendment likely refers primarily to moderation of speech considered by some to be harmful—which the government has very limited authority to regulate. Such speech presents one of the most challenging content moderation issues: how a business should balance a desire for free discourse with the need to foster the environment that the most people will want to use for discourse. That has to matter to Musk, however much money he’s willing to lose on supporting a Twitter that alienates advertisers.

Hateful & Offensive Speech. Two leading “free speech” networks moderate, or even ban, hateful or otherwise offensive speech. “GETTR defends free speech,” the company said in January after banning former Blaze TV host Jon Miller, “but there is no room for racial slurs on our platform.” Likewise, Gab bans “doxing,” the exposure of someone’s private information with the intent to encourage others to harass them. These policies clearly aren’t consistent with the First Amendment: hate speech is fully protected by the First Amendment, and so is most speech that might colloquially be considered “harassment” or “bullying.”

In Texas v. Johnson (1989), the Supreme Court struck down a ban on flag burning: “if there is a bedrock principle underlying the First Amendment, it is simply that the government may not prohibit the expression of an idea simply because society finds the idea itself offensive or disagreeable.” In Matal v. Tam (2017), the Supreme Court reaffirmed this principle and struck down a prohibition on offensive trademark registrations: “Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express the thought that we hate.” 

Most famously, in 1978, the American Nazi Party won the right to march down the streets of Skokie, Illinois, a majority-Jewish town where ten percent of the population had survived the Holocaust. The town had refused to issue a permit to march. Displaying the swastika, Skokie’s lawyers argued, amounted to “fighting words”—which the Supreme Court had ruled, in 1942, could be forbidden if they had a “direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the persons to whom, individually, the remark is addressed.” The Illinois Supreme Court disagreed: “The display of the swastika, as offensive to the principles of a free nation as the memories it recalls may be, is symbolic political speech intended to convey to the public the beliefs of those who display it”—not “fighting words.” Even the revulsion of “the survivors of the Nazi persecutions, tormented by their recollections … does not justify enjoining defendants’ speech.”

Protection of “freedom for the thought we hate” in the literal town square is sacrosanct. The American Civil Liberties Union lawyers who defended the Nazis’ right to march in Skokie were Jews as passionately committed to the First Amendment as was Justice Holmes (post-Schenck). But they certainly wouldn’t have insisted the Nazis be invited to join in a Jewish community day parade. Indeed, the Court has since upheld the right of parade organizers to exclude messages they find abhorrent.

Does Musk really intend Twitter to host Nazis and white supremacists? Perhaps. There are, after all, principled reasons for not banning speech, even in a private forum, just because it is hateful. But there are unavoidable trade-offs. Musk will have to decide what balance will optimize user engagement and keep advertisers (and those financing his purchase) satisfied. It’s unlikely that those lines will be drawn entirely consistent with the First Amendment; at most, it can provide a very general guide.

Harassment & Threats. Often, users are banned by social media platforms for “threatening behavior” or “targeted abuse” (e.g., harassment, doxing). The first category may be easier to apply, but even then, a true public forum would be sharply limited in which threats it could restrict. “True threats,” explained the Court in Virginia v. Black (2003), “encompass those statements where the speaker means to communicate a serious expression of an intent to commit an act of unlawful violence to a particular individual or group of individuals.” But courts split on whether the First Amendment requires that a speaker have the subjective intent to threaten the target, or if it suffices that a reasonable recipient would have felt threatened. Maximal protection for free speech means a subjective requirement, lest the law punish protected speech merely because it might be interpreted as a threat. But in most cases, it would be difficult—if not impossible—to establish subjective intent without the kind of access to witnesses and testimony courts have. These are difficult enough issues even for courts; content moderators will likely find it impossible to adhere strictly, or perhaps even approximately, to First Amendment standards.

Targeted abuse and harassment policies present even thornier issues; what is (or should be) prohibited in this area remains among the most contentious aspects of content moderation. While social media sites vary in how they draw lines, all the major sites “[go] far beyond,” as Musk put it, what the First Amendment would permit a public forum to proscribe.

Mere offensiveness does not suffice to justify restricting speech as harassment; such content-based regulation is generally unconstitutional. Many courts have upheld harassment laws insofar as they target not speech but conduct, such as placing repeated telephone calls to a person in the middle of the night or physically stalking someone. Some scholars argue instead that the consistent principle across cases is that proscribable harassment involves an unwanted physical intrusion into a listener’s private space (whether their home or a physical radius around the person) for the purposes of unwanted one-on-one communication. Either way, neatly and consistently applying legal standards of harassment to content moderation would be no small lift.

Some lines are clear. Ranting about a group hatefully is not itself harassment, while sending repeated unwanted direct messages to an individual user might well be. But Twitter isn’t the telephone network. Line-drawing is more difficult when speech is merely about a person, or occurs in the context of a public, multi-party discussion. Is it harassment to be the “reply guy” who always has to have the last word on everything? What about tagging a person in a tweet about them, or even simply mentioning them by name? What if tweets about another user are filled with pornography or violent imagery? First Amendment standards protect similar real-world speech, but how many users want to party to such conversation?

Again, Musk may well want to err on the side of more permissiveness when it comes to moderation of “targeted abuse” or “harassment.”  We all want words to keep their power to motivate; that remains their most important function. As the Supreme Court said in 1949: “free speech… may indeed best serve its high purpose when it induces a condition of unrest … or even stirs people to anger. Speech is often provocative and challenging. It may strike at prejudices and preconceptions and have profound unsettling effects as it presses for the acceptance of an idea.” 

But Musk’s goal is ultimately, in part, to attract users and keep them engaged. To do that, Twitter will have to moderate some content that the First Amendment would not allow the government to punish. Content moderators have long struggled on how to balance these competing interests. The only certainty is that this is, and will continue to be, an extremely difficult tightrope to walk—especially for Musk. 

Obscenity & Pornography. Twitter already allows pornography involving consenting adults. Yet even this is more complicated than simply following the First Amendment. On the one hand, child sexual abuse material (CSAM) is considered obscenity, which the First Amendment simply doesn’t protect. All social media sites ban CSAM (and all mainstream sites proactively filter for, and block, it). On the other hand, nonconsensual pornography involving adults isn’t obscene, and therefore is protected by the First Amendment. Some courts have nonetheless upheld state “revenge porn” laws, but those laws are actually much narrower than Twitter’s flat ban (“You may not post or share intimate photos or videos of someone that were produced or distributed without their consent.”) 

Critical to the Vermont Supreme Court’s decision to uphold the state’s revenge porn law were two features that made the law “narrowly tailored.” First, it required intent to “harm, harass, intimidate, threaten, or coerce the person depicted.” Such an intent standard is a common limiting feature of speech restrictions upheld by courts. Yet none of Twitter’s policies turn on intent. Again, it would be impossible to meaningfully apply intent-based standards at the scale of the Internet and outside the established procedures of courtrooms. Intent is a complex inquiry unto itself; content moderators would find it nearly impossible to make these decisions with meaningful accuracy. Second, the Vermont law excluded  “[d]isclosures of materials that constitute a matter of public concern,” and those “made in the public interest.” Twitter does have a public-interest exception to its policies, yet, Twitter notes:

At present, we limit exceptions to one critical type of public-interest content—Tweets from elected and government officials—given the significant public interest in knowing and being able to discuss their actions and statements. 

It’s unlikely that Twitter would actually allow public officials to post pornographic images of others without consent today, simply because they were public officials. But to “follow the First Amendment,” Twitter would have to go much further than this: it would have to allow anyone to post such images, in the name of the “public interest.” Is that really what Musk means?

Gratuitous Gore. Twitter bans depictions of “dismembered or mutilated humans; charred or burned human remains; exposed internal organs or bones; and animal torture or killing.” All of these are protected speech. Violence is not obscenity, the Supreme Court ruled in Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011), and neither is animal cruelty, ruled the Court in U.S. v. Stevens (2010). Thus, the Court struck down a California law barring the sale of “violent” video games to minors and requiring that they be labeled “18,” and a federal law criminalizing “crush videos” and other depictions of the torture and killing of animals.

The Illusion of Constitutionalizing Content Moderation

The problem isn’t just that the “bounds of the law” aren’t where Musk may think they are. For many kinds of speech, identifying those bounds and applying them to particular facts is a far more complicated task than any social media site is really capable of. 

It’s not as simple as whether “the First Amendment protects” certain kinds of speech. Only three things we’ve discussed fall outside the protection of the First Amendment altogether: CSAM, non-expressive conduct, and speech integral to criminal conduct. In other cases, speech may be protected in some circumstances, and unprotected in others.

Musk is far from the only person who thinks the First Amendment can provide clear, easy answers to content moderation questions. But invoking First Amendment concepts without doing the kind of careful analysis courts do in applying complex legal doctrines to facts means hiding the ball: it  conceals subjective value judgments behind an illusion of faux-constitutional objectivity. 

This doesn’t mean Twitter couldn’t improve how it makes content moderation decisions, or that it couldn’t come closer to doing something like what courts do in sussing out the “bounds of the law.” Musk would want to start by considering Facebook’s initial efforts to create a quasi-judicial review of the company’s most controversial, or precedent-setting, moderation decisions. In 2018, Facebook funded the creation of an independent Oversight Board, which appointed a diverse panel of stakeholders to assess complaints. The Board has issued 23 decisions in little more than a year, including one on Facebook’s suspension of Donald Trump for posts he made during the January 6 storming of the Capitol, expressing support for the rioters. 

Trump’s lawyers argued the Board should “defer to the legal principles of the nation state in which the leader is, or was governing.” The Board responded that its “decisions do not concern the human rights obligations of states or application of national laws, but focus on Facebook’s content policies, its values and its human rights responsibilities as a business.” The Oversight Board’s charter makes this point very clear. Twitter could, of course, tie its policies to the First Amendment and create its own oversight board, chartered with enforcing the company’s adherence to First Amendment principles. But by now, it should be clear how much more complicated that would be than it might seem. While constitutional protection of speech is clearly established in some areas, new law is constantly being created on the margins—by applying complex legal standards to a never-ending kaleidoscope of new fact patterns. The complexities of these cases keep many lawyers busy for years; it would be naïve to presume that an extra-judicial board will be able to meaningfully implement First Amendment standards.

At a minimum, any serious attempt at constitutionalizing content moderation would require hiring vastly more humans to process complaints, make decisions, and issue meaningful reports—even if Twitter did less content moderation overall. And Twitter’s oversight board would have to be composed of bona fide First Amendment experts. Even then, it may be that the decision of such a board might later be undercut by actual court decisions involving similar facts. This doesn’t mean that attempting to hew to the First Amendment is a bad idea; in some areas, it might make sense, but it will be far more difficult than Musk imagines.

In Part II, we’ll ask what principles, if not the First Amendment, should guide content moderation, and what Musk could do to make Twitter more of a “de facto town square.”

Berin Szóka (@BerinSzoka) is President of TechFreedom. Ari Cohn (@AriCohn) is Free Speech Counsel at TechFreedom. Both are lawyers focused on the First Amendment’s application to the Internet.

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Comments on “Musk, Twitter, Why The First Amendment Can’t Resolve Content Moderation (Part I)”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Twitter moderates harmful content primarily to cultivate a community where the timid can express themselves, where moms and grandpas feel comfortable, too. Very few Americans want to be anywhere near anything like the Charlottesville rally—whether offline or online.

Whenever I say that “moderation is community curation”, this is what I mean.

Everyone wants to feel comfortable in a community (even one as large as Twitter), but some people are not going to feel comfortable with other members of that community. Moderation, then, is about trying to either mitigate the worst behavior of the community or, when push finally comes to shove, get rid of those who refuse to stop being assholes.

Of course, if the moderators of a community are fine with those assholes, the people who aren’t assholes will end up leaving. That is where the “Worst People” Problem crops up. That is the potential problem facing Twitter if Musk goes forward with his “only limited by the First Amendment” proposal⁠—something that even other platforms abandoned when it became clear they had to moderate spam and porn and spam porn (those sick fucks…) so their services would still be useable.

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Koby (profile) says:

Cutting Edge

That may make Twitter something like ten times larger than Parler, but it’s only one-seventh the size of Facebook—and only the world’s fifteenth-largest social network. To some in the “very online” set, Twitter may seem like everything, but 240 million Americans age 13+ don’t use Twitter every day.

Twitter is at the forefront of the news cycle. For numerous stories, the Twitter reactions have outpaced tv news and investigations, often by hours. Twitter has effectively become the breaking news cycle, and preventing suppression of ideas is now critical for a free society.

Rocky says:

Re:

Twitter is at the forefront of the news cycle. For numerous stories, the Twitter reactions have outpaced tv news and investigations, often by hours. Twitter has effectively become the breaking news cycle, and preventing suppression of ideas is now critical for a free society.

What ideas are you referring to?

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Not Chozen says:

Re: Re:

Twitter and Facebook both belong to the government, so they violate my 1A rights if they don’t let me spread my message of hatred to marginalized groups. The term “public company” means funded by the taxpayer, so the government is infringing my rights if I’m moderated on any website owned by a public company. You will respect my authoritah!!!

John S says:

What if I could care less about Twitter?

I don’t see how Twitter is useful honestly. It’s an echo chamber and who has the time to follow it? I’ve also really scaled back on FB once I found myself doom scrolling too much on ranker.com posts. At least I escaped early enough!

But if you look at the numbers of Twitter Users, it’s not really all that many compared to other methods. It’s big, but it’s short and honestly, so damn annoying to actually follow and read. Blech.

I suspect Musk is going to get burned badly on this deal, but hey that’s why most successful people don’t succeed at everything, because they’re really not that good in the first place. They’re in the right place at the right time with the right product. It’s random. Success is fleeting unless you’re willing to know when you don’t know anything.

Musk is smart. And driven. And don’t care much about other people really. It’s obvious when you look at his professional and personal life. He’s driven (in both good and bad ways) and has done some amazing things. He really is a success in alot of ways.

But he falls into the belief that one major success means all you do will be a success. Reminds me of the SMBC cartoon about the old physicist who has to be put down like an old dog, but starts spouting all kinds of nonsense. LOL! Too funny…

That One Guy (profile) says:

'Who wouldn't want to oversee a cesspit?'

Racism, sexism, bigotry of all kinds.

Ranting about the jews and their space lasers and how unfortunate it was those Very Fine People in germany were stopped from really doing anything about them.

Discussions about how every vaccine carries tiny little microchips to track you and/control your mind/act as the mark of the beast, when it’s not giving people autism anyway.

Talk about how the wrong side won the War to Preserve Slavery and how uppity those non-whites have gotten, thinking that they’re equal to the whites and deserve the same rights and treatment.

When someone argues that moderation should be based upon the first amendment all of the above and more would fall under the category of protected speech, so either they’re fine with their property being turned in a cesspit that only a relative few will want to congregate on or they’ve spend no time thinking about what that actually means and are just saying what they think people want to hear.

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Hyman Rosen says:

However Twitter will handle content moderation under new ownership, it should be clear that banning a former president of the United States from the platform, or forbidding mention of a person’s former name after they have changed it, are both wrong decisions. The processes that led to those decisions need to be fixed and the decisions rescinded.

The main takeaway should be that when there are matters of actual controversy, with millions of people on multiple sides of an issue, it is wrong to ban one particular point of view, and it is wrong to use supposed “harm” caused by people seeing opinions with which they disagree as a reason to ban such opinions. That leads to veto by emotional blackmail, which is not something a platform supporting speech should be allowing.

It is also worth pointing out that back when I was young, perfectly ordinary newspapers ran ads for movie theaters showing hard-core pornography. The notion that people will be driven away from platforms because the platforms host things they don’t like is a convenient one for would-be censors, but it is not necessarily true.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

banning a former president of the United States from the platform

If the former president of the US came into your living room and shate on your floor, would you still invite him back.

Just because a person is a former US president, doesn’t mean they should get some kind of special treatment everywhere they go.

Don’t like Twitter’s rules, the go somewhere else!

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

A former president of the United States has, by definition, received tens of millions of votes, and it should go without saying that there will be millions of people interested in what he has to say. So, yes, a former president deserves special treatment. The fact that you might hate the former president is irrelevant.

And instead of going somewhere else, some person who doesn’t like Twitter’s rules might buy it and change the rules. That works too, right?

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Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:

A former president of the United States has, by definition, received tens of millions of votes, and it should go without saying that there will be millions of people interested in what he has to say.

And over 200 million who are glad that he’s now as present on Twitter as he is in the White House. The only reason the site hosted his shit as long as they did is because he was the POTUS, then as soon as he wasn’t, they immediately banned him. I think the reason you have such a hard on for Twitter is because they banned you for the same reason that they banned Trump: violation of the ToS.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The only reason the site hosted his shit as long as they did is because he was the POTUS, then as soon as he wasn’t, they immediately banned him.

Technically, Donald Trump was still POTUS when Twitter finally banned his orange ass. He didn’t transfer power to Joe Biden until two weeks after the ban…and the insurrection that led to his ban.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Because I would vote for a corpse before I would vote for a Republican. Republicans are filth. They were in the business of taking away people’s freedom before woke ideology was a glimmer in anyone’s eye. They want to force religion on people, they want to prevent gay people from living normal lives, they want to force pregnant women (only!) to give birth, they want to destroy social programs that benefit everyone, they want to protect the wealthy from paying taxes, they want to immunize business against paying for the social costs of their misdeeds, and on and on.

Woke ideology is stupidly wrong. Republican ideology is evil. I vote for Democrats who, as much as possible, do not align with woke ideology, but I will vote for any Democrat against any Republican.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Hey: at least your honest about it. I respect that.

I’ve voted for three Reps in my life and two weren’t even real Reps.
Perot had some good plans on redistribution of taxation, great social ideas that involved a from-scratch budget. And he wasn’t tied into the Carter elite like Clinton.

And Trump. Because he was (in)famous for doing wtf he wants. He said he’d build a wall. I believed that.
Like another I also voted to help kill the Green New Deal drive. Which takes no thought and just does.

Bush 2 for the same two reasons as trump. Border security and he wasn’t Gore and the end of the world green apocalypse.

Otherwise I was a Dem, registered. Then Libertarian. Reform Dem and ultimately independent liberal.

But overall I don’t care who it is as long as they are disruptive. And don’t threaten my personal freedom.

One thing I don’t want is dynastic continuation. That creates compliancy and complicity.
Which leads to involvement over seas we don’t have any business being in.

I don’t mind jamming the gears from 2 to Reverse ever 4-8 years such a system keep the country new and moving.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Most of my family had, has, or will develop it. It’s something I’ve seen since day one. I know the effects. And if you can stand there and say you disagree today, with Dems talking about the concern now?
His cognitive disability is beyond denial today.

Those who understood it knew before the election. Now almost everyone can see it. The only hope now is making it to the end of his term without him causing some major international calamity.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

He declared a stance that he would build a wall. Full stop. I didn’t care how, he’s the first I trusted could do it.

He wouldn’t proceed with pointless firearms regulations that had no effect on crime.

He opposed reactionary slapstick comedy of the green new ideas.

And he was an outsider not part of the political intrenchment. He owed nothing to ‘his party’ beyond using them as a platform. No paid-for vote requirements.

He was more isolationist than all alternatives. We spend to much time, money, and lives, fighting other nations battles.

You asked.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

And instead of going somewhere else, some person who doesn’t like Twitter’s rules might buy it and change the rules. That works too, right?

That is absolutely true! And if Twitter does change the rules and starts to allow all the people who act like assholes back on their site, then the people who do not want to be bothered constantly dealing with assholes will go somewhere else. That works too, right?

But the thing is, Trump isn’t buying Twitter, he built his own (failing) social media app and guess what, nobody wants to use it! Hmmm, wonder why all these people who hate how Twitter moderates haven’t flocked over to Pravda yet, wait… I mean Truth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

it’s the network effect. You go where everyone else is.

So it’s always wanting to play the victim. People who want to be assholes can go to other social media apps that expressly allow them to be assholes.

That they don’t just means they are only interested in playing the victim that big bad Twitter won’t allow their racist posts.

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Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Don’t be a sheeple idiot.

Nobody forced you to follow Trump. Just click not interested on the off chance he shows up in your less-than-quality-accurate feed! Or mute. Or block. Etc

YOU people, YOU, need to get over yourselves and stop pretending that Trump had any invasion on your use of the platform. He didn’t show up for you unless you went looking!

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I never followed him, but he showed up on my feed anyways, sometimes because people I did follow quote-tweeted or replied to his posts, other times because it was “newsworthy” content and Twitter’s algorithms just assumed I wanted to see it.

More importantly, Twitter should be able to enforce its rules for its platform as it sees fit.

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Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re:

banning a former president of the United States from the platform, or forbidding mention of a person’s former name after they have changed it, are both wrong decisions

… claimed nobody who has ever once demonstrated any capacity for rarional independent thought, much less any understanding of or support for lawful free speech.

Naughty Autie says:

Re:

However Twitter will handle content moderation under new ownership, it should be clear that banning a former president of the United States from the platform, or forbidding mention of a person’s former name after they have changed it, are both wrong decisions.

Perhaps the First Amendment should be repealed then, because only without it could those decisions be wrong. Face it, you’re not bothered about having freedom of speech yourself, you just don’t like it that others have that same right.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

only without it could those decisions be wrong

Legally? Yes. Morally? Not so much. And putting aside what got Old 45 banned in the first place, the decision to ban him was less a legal one and more a moral one, because Twitter had always reserved the right to ban him from the moment he joined Twitter.

you’re not bothered about having freedom of speech yourself, you just don’t like it that others have that same right

It’s not so much that he’s bothered by the right to free speech, so much as he’s bothered by the right to free association⁠—which requires the freedom to choose not to associate with someone.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

As usual, you are arguing with someone you have made up in your own head who is saying things I don’t say, not me.

You seem to believe that criticizing Twitter for the decisions it makes is somehow equivalent to forbidding them from making those decisions. It is wrong for Twitter to ban former presidents. It is wrong for Twitter to ban people for making indisputably factual statements, such as mentioning people’s former names. Twitter can do as it likes, and suffer the consequences, which can be as little as people yelling at them, or as much as someone buying them and changing the rules. None of this prevents them from associating with people as they like. It’s just freedom to associate is not the same as freedom from consequences. You often say this yourself, but of course that’s when you like the rules being enforced.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There is no right not to hear the speech of someone you don’t like

No. I have the right and the freedom to ignore you, regardless of whether or not I like you, and you do not have the right to force me to listen to you.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You can walk away on the street, and you can choose not to read Twitter postings. You can’t silence the speakers, and Twitter should not be banning opinions with side support or unassailably factual posts. “Captive audience” is something like being on a subway, where moving away from the speaker is difficult.

But even in cases where Westboro Baptist is picketing a funeral, and moving away is not possible if you want to attend the funeral, they still can’t be silenced or moved.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Of course there’s a reason. It’s that enormous numbers of people people want to read what he writes. Twitter’s rules aren’t pearls handed down gods. They’re a bunch of stuff that Twitter made up, and some of that stuff is bad for a site that wants to be a forum for people to speak with each other.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:4

They’re a bunch of stuff that Twitter made up, and some of that stuff is bad for a site that wants to be a forum for people to speak with each other.

Their property, their fucking right to put up any rules they want. And by all evidence the rules they have was adopted to make Twitter as attractive as possible to people in general.

If you change the rules to accommodate disruptive elements you loose users, that means less income which means they broke the fiduciary trust to the owners. And in regards to Musk and any changes he would want to make, if he tank Twitter through his changes the banks who put up a large part of the money for buying Twitter will either force Musk to adopt rules that makes sense financially or they will get their money back in any way they can – the last scenario won’t spell well for Musk.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The part that you don’t seem to get is that criticizing Twitter is not “forcing” Twitter. I don’t want to force Twitter to do anything, but I will criticize them for banning a former president and indisputably factual statements. And I will hope that if the Musk purchase goes through (or has it already?), he will change those rules.

For a group of people who like to say that freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism and consequences, you seem rather dense when it comes to criticism and consequences over positions you like.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“Fantasize outcomes”? Do you really think those who bankrolled Musk’s purchase wont get their pound of flesh regardless of what happens to Twitter? Either the deal pays for itself in the long run or Musk tank Twitter which means they will get their money back by other means. That’s how it works because ignoring your fiduciary responsibility to banks is bad idea.

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Of course there’s a reason. It’s that enormous numbers of people people want to read what he writes.

And there’s an even more enormous number of people whose feedback over 15 years has resulted in a set of rules that every Twitter user agrees to follow because that’s what Twitter believes will maximise user engagement.

Twitter’s rules aren’t pearls handed down gods. They’re a bunch of stuff that Twitter made up…

Do you have a job? Have you even even been employed? Because it sounds like you’ve never been subject to a set of rules that someone in a position of authority over you has “made up” and enforced. You make it sound like some totally weird thing that we should all be shocked by. Twitter’s rules are barely different to the majority of social media sites, even the so-called “free speech” ones.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:6

The facts are that Stephens went to work dressed in gender appropriate clothes for 6 years and was fired very shortly after informing the employer about the surgery and the planned lifestyle change. At no point did Stephens go to work dressed as a woman.

Take your fucking bigotry and revisionism somewhere else.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aimee_Stephens

According to Wikipedia, “Stephens was fired from her job at R.G. & G.R. Harris Funeral Home in Garden City in 2013 after she said she would wear appropriate women’s business attire at work.”

So I don’t know what you are talking about when you say six years, and I was using this case as an example of company rules being bad and needing to change.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

The point of complaining about Twitter’s rules is to demonstrate to Twitter that its community is, in fact, not aligned with the rules it has set. Interested rule-makers can often slip in under the radar to get their way before the wider community knows that this is happening. (For example, the way the Movement for Black Lives platform was made to include a plank accusing Israel of genocide).

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The point of complaining about Twitter’s rules is to demonstrate to Twitter that its community is, in fact, not aligned with the rules it has set.

Universally? No. But then that’s true for any sufficiently large group. A majority? Hard to say, but it seems likely given how most instances of enforcement don’t occur until enough people reported the infraction, at least in general. There may not be a majority that all agree with all of the rules it has set, but for most rules, it seems likely that for each rule, there is a majority that either agree with or have no problem with it.

Interested rule-makers can often slip in under the radar to get their way before the wider community knows that this is happening.

I don’t know if this is true or not, but I also don’t see the point of mentioning it.

(For example, the way the Movement for Black Lives platform was made to include a plank accusing Israel of genocide).

Citation please?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

On a website, you’re not physically associating, so there are loopholes in that argument.

Except there really aren’t. Association doesn’t have to be in-person/physical to be association. Twitter has the right to choose whether a given user can be associated with Twitter by way of hosting that user’s speech⁠—and that holds true regardless of whether anyone working for Twitter has ever associated with said user in meatspace. To say otherwise would be to upend the principle of free association.

The right of free association applies as equally to cyberspace as it does to meatspace: No one can be free to associate if they are unable to not associate.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The main takeaway should be that when there are matters of actual controversy, with millions of people on multiple sides of an issue, it is wrong to ban one particular point of view,

If that was true, TV and newspapers would be very different, because they are partitioned in various ways by taking sides in a controversy. So long as you can get your speech published, you are part of the conversation, as those who are interested in your views can find them.

I must be able to speak on any platform that I chooses is how those who would use rhetorical and/or physical violence establish an authoritarian state.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

By my assessment, you and your kind won’t be happy as long as people are willing and able to voice opinions that contradict and ridicule your cherished beliefs.

Where have any supporter of this site said that Gab, Parler, Truth etc. cannot exist, or that those sites must carry their viewpoints. It is your like that is insisting that the rules you like should apply to all sites, and would stifle free speech by attacking those you disagree with wherever they try to congregate. So take you desire to use deadnames over to a site likes of 8kun.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

If you can’t silence opinions you don’t like, you want to shunt them off to places where only like-minded people will be, so that those contrary opinions cannot influence those whom you would prefer see only your own. If you can’t stop the preachers, you think that having them preach to the choir is your next best bet.

A major reason for speaking on generic social media sites is to influence general public opinion.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

A major reason for speaking on generic social media sites is to influence general public opinion.

So tell me, when Twitter allows all speech because freedumb, how will those god-fearing good willed people feel when they’re inundated with porn, ridicule, and general nastiness once people get tired of listening to them?

Will that cue the ‘but the children!’ panic argument? I seem to remember a lot of those crying freeze peach now losing their collective shit about the possibility that a minor might (gasp!) see a real, live woman’s exposed breast, leaving them scarred for life.

It’s so easily predictable at this point. You just watch what you people say about being ‘poor, oppressed, misunderstood champions of rights’ and determine the ways you can use the wedge to keep that perpetual victimhood going.

Because without the victimhood angle, people might not notice that you’re really just assholes nobody likes.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I expect that the people who would object to porn would also object to things adjacent to porn. Do you think that people who don’t like porn are OK with a video of a scantily-dressed woman dancing in front of her bathroom mirror and directing people to her OnlyFans site?

Then there’s this, found by searching for “nudity” within Twitter:
https://twitter.com/navyhato/status/1514317389428527104/photo/1

What do you think? OK or not OK? This is why moderation decisions should ultimately be left in the hands of individuals.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

I expect that the people who would object to porn would also object to things adjacent to porn.

You would be wrong.

Do you think that people who don’t like porn are OK with a video of a scantily-dressed woman dancing in front of her bathroom mirror and directing people to her OnlyFans site?

Some of them, yes. I say this because I know such people.

Then there’s this, found by searching for “nudity” within Twitter: [link]

Which is clearly not porn.

What do you think? OK or not OK?

Ok. Like, it’s not even a close call.

This is why moderation decisions should ultimately be left in the hands of individuals.

I fail to see the connection between the evidence you presented and the conclusion you draw.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

A major reason for speaking on generic social media sites is to influence general public opinion.

You do not have the right to an audience, and need to attract an audience, or to force the heather to convert.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

And the woke want to keep their opponents from from being able to reach an audience, because they have noticed that when normal people are made aware of woke positions, they are first incredulous, then angry, and then they kick the woke out of office.

As a centrist Democrat, I’m tired of woke idiots scoring own goals.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:12

And the alt-right want to keep their opponents from being able to reach an audience because they have noticed that when reasonable people are made aware of alt-right positions, they are first incredulous, then angry, and then they kick the alt-right out of office.

Just like the American voters did with Trump. For all you claim to be centrist, I’ll bet that pissed you right off.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

While he was in office, I routinely referred to him as the POFMIC (piece-of-filth moron-in-chief). There has never been a politician I despised as much as I did Trump. Nevertheless, it was wrong for Twitter to ban him. And we should be so lucky to have alt-right politicians kicked out of office. That’s not going to happen while their opponents are pushing woke ideology. To the contrary. Alt-right views may be evil, but at least they have populism behind them, and they make some sense if those goals are what you want. Woke ideology is just plain stupid on its face, and only out-of-touch elites could possibly believe it.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

What you just described is inconsistent with your previous assertions of the definition of “woke ideology” and of “woke gender ideology”. To the extent it exists as you just described, it is irrelevant to anything Twitter has done and, thus, this discussion, as you have not alleged facts that demonstrate that Twitter’s moderation has anything to do with such “woke ideology”.

You haven’t even demonstrated that woke ideology, as you just defined, actually exists in reality or that it’s a bad thing (for one thing, lots of true things appear stupid and ridiculous on their face), but that’s among the least of the problems with what you have said thus far, and I’d be willing to grant the former as actually true and the latter as true for the sake of discussion.

Really, it appears as if you just copy/pasted a definition you found somewhere without checking to see if it actually helps or is even consistent with anything else you said thus far, so even if I accept this definition as the correct definition, it doesn’t even show that it means what you think it means because this appears inconsistent with your previous uses of the term.

I’ll also point out that you fail to specify any of the alleged “left-wing beliefs that are stupid and ridiculous on their face” or demonstrate that any of them actually are “stupid and ridiculous on their face”, and you also fail to define “left intelligentsia”.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I’ve defined it before for Stone. I need to keep a copy to paste in when the sealions appear. But here you are:

Woke gender ideology believes that men can be turned into women and women into men, that gender exists aside from sex of the body, and that people can “know” that they are some sex (or none, or more than one) independent of their body.

Woke justice ideology believes that criminals should not be punished for their crimes, that law enforcement is evil, and that keeping arrested people in jail based on their prior records is wrong. There is one exception – white men accused of rape or other sex crimes are not entitled to due process or to confront witnesses against them, and are to be punished and ostracized for the rest of their lives.

Woke race ideology (critical race theory) believes that any disparity in outcome that shows white people doing better than others is due to only to white racism, often deliberate, and it is the responsibility of white people to abase and deny themselves in order to equalize performance. For purposes of this theory, Asians are to be considered white.

Woke artistic ideology requires that white people may not create or perform art involving non-white subjects. For example, Dana Schutz’s painting of Emmett Till must be destroyed and American Dirt should never have been published. It is a cardinal sin for a white person to wear makeup to appear a race other than themselves, or to perform in such a role. (The other direction, as in the musical Hamilton, is not only permitted but laudable.) One exception – drag is fine.

Woke environmental theory believes in blocking all development without taking into account the needs of the people who will be affected. It uses “environmental impact studies” and invented endangered species to do this. Any finding of detrimental impact is sufficient to block a project; a finding of no impact requires the study to be repeated until the correct outcome is achieved. Nuclear power is inherently evil and must never be used. Genetic modification is inherently evil ad must never be used.

Woke government theory says that the money should be borrowed or printed as needed to pay for woke social projects.

Woke education theory says that neither students nor teachers may be evaluated for proficiency in the subjects they are supposed to be learning or teaching. No subject may be taught in an algorithmic, systematic, or rigorous way.

Woke philosophical theory says that there is no absolute reality or truth, only those with power imposing their will on those without. Appeals to logic, reason, or science are ways that those with power seek to maintain it.

Woke freedom theory requires that any beliefs that are objectionable to members of groups with woke privilege must not be held or stated. If someone attempts to do so, it as acceptable to take any action necessary to prevent that person from being heard.

And so on. All ridiculously false. I may have exaggerated for effect, or I may have exposed what is secretly in woke hearts that they are unwilling to proclaim until they have secured their grip on power.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I’ve defined it before for Stone.

I’m aware. I was saying that it is all inconsistent with what anyone actually claims and/or your general description:

A constellation of left-wing beliefs that are stupid and ridiculous on their face, which must be affirmed in their entirety by the left intelligentsia on pain of ostracism, and which must be imposed upon everyone else.

I’ll break it down by ideology in separate replies.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 “Woke Gender Ideology”

that men can be turned into women and women into men

Not something anyone actually believes, as I’ve stated previously. What is claimed is that people have a gender identity (man, woman, or something else) that they are born with, and that one’s body can be changed through surgery and other treatments to be closer to their gender identity even if it’s not perfect (at least with current technology). None of this is saying that men can be turned into women or vice versa, but it is all true.

that gender exists aside from sex of the body

Neither ridiculous nor false; most experts agree that gender identity and physiological and genetic sex are separate, though the latter often informs the former.

and that people can “know” that they are some sex (or none, or more than one) independent of their body

Again, not an actual belief held by anyone. They can know (or believe; whichever you prefer) that they identify as some gender independent of the physiological and genetic sex of their body, but this is not the same thing, and, again, it is neither ridiculous nor false.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 “Woke Justice Ideology”

that criminals should not be punished for their crimes

Literally nobody believes this. What they disagree with are what should be crimes, when punishment should be meted out, the process by which guilt or innocence is determined, and what the severity of the punishment for certain crimes should be, and in that way, it is neither ridiculous nor absurd.

that law enforcement is evil

I think that some believe that the current law enforcement is evil, as a general statement of the people or how the institution is structured, but not that law enforcement itself is inherently evil. This is also very tiny minority that isn’t even that loud among far-left ideologues.

and that keeping arrested people in jail based on their prior records is wrong

Again, it’s a hell of a lot more nuanced than that; no one actually believes what you’re saying here. It’s only ridiculous or absurd when as you described; as actually claimed, it is neither.

There is one exception – white men accused of rape or other sex crimes are not entitled to due process or to confront witnesses against them, and are to be punished and ostracized for the rest of their lives.

I am aware of literally no one who singles out white people for such treatment. And while some don’t believe that people accused of sex crimes should be entitled to such things, the vast majority only agree insofar as social punishments go or insofar as the confrontation would endanger alleged victims, which I don’t agree is necessarily ridiculous or absurd (though I do disagree with the social aspect in some cases).

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

Because the trope of the Black rapist was used to foment racism and lynchings, it is now the responsibility of Black women to not report rapes by Black men so as not to generate statistics that might lead people to be suspicious of Black people being a proper victim class.

https://www.apa.org/pi/about/newsletter/2020/02/black-women-sexual-assault

(This is from the American Psychological Association, so take it with a grain of salt.)

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Not hardly. I’m a non-observant atheist, and that includes not believing in any sort of woo, including Thetans.

It’s just that psychology is itself filled with woo, half-baked ideas, just-so stories, drugs with largely unknown effectiveness, talk therapies that go on for years and are highly variable between practitioners, failed replications of major results, decisions about what is an illness that are driven by politics, and fads that sweep the field.

All of those things make psychology a particularly untrustworthy science, and thus decisions taken on the basis of psychological pronouncements are likely no better than a coin flip.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:21

Also, this just in: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/05/some-reproducibility-problems-may-just-come-down-to-the-mice/

So not even mice psychology works. Creatures with brains exhibit more behavioral variability, not to mention sheer cussedness, than research accounts for. Either you get false results because you’ve sampled too few individuals, or you get no results because you’ve sampled enough.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:22 Thanks

No, really!
My first thought for those with hatred for the practice et tl is the philosophy of Scientology.

I only get protective because a) my father was one (phd business psychologist) !) much of my family here and extended chose psy or phy As doctorates.
And c) I know for a fact that the right doctor with the right information and the right motivation can prescribe the right chemicals to fix issues.

But understand and (with relation) agree with your view.
Credited ‘for life work’ I’m a double psy myself. And proof that Dr of Psy (H-PhD) is little to bank on. Theoretical science (a practice that comes to general acceptance of possibilities without scientific proof) and language (Gothic/Gothen sourcing granted for translation work on mid-to-late 1st cen Northern Central-European texts).

Psychology is a legitimate practice sitting on whale dung and drowning in actual snake oil.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18 “Woke race ideology”

Before getting into any alleged beliefs, this is already problematic:

Woke race ideology (critical race theory)

These two things are in no way equivalent. Critical race theory is a lens for viewing existing institutions and policies in America and the history behind them to see how they might lead to racist outcomes even if they don’t appear to be racist on their face and may not have had racist intentions.

Importantly, CRT is not and has never been intended to be something that literally everyone accepts as true or uses at all, left or not.

that any disparity in outcome that shows white people doing better than others is due to only to white racism, often deliberate,

Not really, and definitely not for CRT. I will note that this is not exactly what you gave Stephen, which is that the racism was always deliberate. But, really, I don’t think many believe that every disparity in outcome is solely due to white racism.

and it is the responsibility of white people to abase and deny themselves in order to equalize performance

Again, not something I think people actually claim.

For purposes of this theory, Asians are to be considered white.

This one I’m pretty sure is false, though I am aware of people who don’t realize they’re talking about Asians saying they’re white, so I think I know where you’re getting that from.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:19

I don’t think many believe that every disparity in outcome is solely due to white racism.

Hell, I don’t even believe that. But I do believe some institutions can perpetuate racism even while trying not to do. Such institutions were built and operated in a way that encouraged (and rewarded) racism, even by people who aren’t explicitly racist.

(Hell, if you want to get down to brass tacks, one such institution is the United States federal government. For proof, look at the Electoral College, which inherently favors conservatives/“red” states. See also: the Three-Fifths compromise, the fact that the Constitution needed a whole-ass amendment so Black people could have equal access to their civil rights…)

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I have not seen any evidence, at least insofar as it is remotely relevant to this discussion. Whether or not “the woke” want to keep their opponents from reaching an audience, I see no evidence that Twitter shares that goal, or that that justifies wanting Twitter to host any of the things that it has banned from its platform.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If you can’t silence opinions you don’t like,

I’m not trying to silence anyone, nor do I particularly want to silence everyone I disagree with.

you want to shunt them off to places where only like-minded people will be, so that those contrary opinions cannot influence those whom you would prefer see only your own.

No. I just don’t want to see them myself, and lots of others just so happen to agree. And by “them”, I don’t mean everything I disagree with. I mean blatant and potentially harmful disinformation, harassment, blatant bigotry, violent threats, telling others to off themselves, etc.

More importantly, I want whoever is setting the rules for such a large site to have some experience with moderation, and Musk has none whatsoever.

If you can’t stop the preachers, you think that having them preach to the choir is your next best bet.

Again, only for very, very specific issues. Again, my main issue with Elon is his lack of experience and apparently lack of knowledge regarding the 1st Amendment and moderation.

I also believe that they don’t have an inherent right—moral or legal—to use someone else’s privately-owned platform to speak against the owner’s wishes or the established rules for using the platform, nor do they have an inherent right to any particular audience.

A major reason for speaking on generic social media sites is to influence general public opinion.

So what? That doesn’t mean that everyone should be allowed on every generic social media site.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I’m sure Musk will hire the very best people to advise him…

As for demanding access, that’s not my position. My position is that a site that is a forum for millions of people to speak to each other on every topic under the sun should not be censoring speakers whom people want to hear, or speech that is indisputably true. That the sites can censor doesn’t mean that they should.

Naughty Autie says:

Re: Re: Re:12

My position is that a site that is a forum for millions of people to speak to each other on every topic under the sun should not be censoring speakers whom people want to hear…

So I suppose it would be OK with you if a social media site didn’t moderate graphic descriptions of child rape and murder because a couple of thousand people wanted to hear that. Have I got that correct?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I haven’t looked at the stories in detail to see if any are about children, but Twitter already has explicit sex stories: https://twitter.com/EroticStoriesOn

Graphic descriptions and depictions of murder are, of course, everywhere – mystery and horror stories, movies, TV shows, even toys: https://mcfarlane.com/toys/mcfarlanes-monsters-femmes-fatales/

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Online erotic fiction often has depictions of underage sex, for as many definitions of underage and sex as you care to think of. For example, here’s part of the FAQ of Archive of Our Own, a website that collects fan fiction: https://archiveofourown.org/tos_faq#underage_tag

As I said, I didn’t check whether the particular set of stories I found by a cursory search had material like that. But Archive of Our Own is also on Twitter: https://twitter.com/archiveofourown

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

People will post horrifying images to move their audience to action. It’s not always for the lulz. There are the classic Vietnam pictures, for example – the young naked girl fleeing on the road and the man being shot in the head. Censorship based on the presumed mindset of the poster is even worse than censorship based on content.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

So what? You’re not helping your case. Erotic fiction is still fiction, while the classic Vietnam photos are horrible reality.

Also, this:

Censorship based on the presumed mindset of the poster is even worse than censorship based on content.

First, again, we’re talking about moderation, not censorship.

Second, this has nothing to do with what you just said.

Third, you have offered no evidence or reasons to back up this assertion at all.

Fourth, you have not demonstrated that there is even a meaningful distinction between the two (since people presume mindsets of a poster based primarily upon the content they produce).

Fifth, you have not demonstrated that Twitter has moderated on the basis of a presumed mindset of the poster but not the content, so you have not demonstrated that any possible distinction that might exist would be a relevant distinction.

Sixth, again, so what?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I don’t understand what you’re saying. Do you believe that if people widely posted tweets containing fictional stories of child rape or gory images that were artificially created, that other people seeing them would not find those objectionable and seek to have them censored?

It is certainly the case that within AO³, their policy on stories containing underage sex causes a great deal of controversy: https://www.theverge.com/2018/11/8/18072622/fanfic-ao3-free-speech-censorship-fandom

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

If you find something objectionable… that’s you. If you seek to ban it simply because you object to it your a censorious shite that is of zero good to the popular as a whole.
Stay I. Your bum hole and never come out.

That should make my stance clear on anyone who objects to consensually created fiction. Sod off. 1313 just sent a message in a bottle and their waiting for your return.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:18

I don’t understand what you’re saying. Do you believe that if people widely posted tweets containing fictional stories of child rape or gory images that were artificially created, that other people seeing them would not find those objectionable and seek to have them censored?

Some, yes. The same number as those who would find images of actual child rape or gore objectionable? No. The point is that these are completely different things that you are treating as equivalent. Specifically, Twitter treats the two differently.

It is certainly the case that within AO³, their policy on stories containing underage sex causes a great deal of controversy

Irrelevant. That says nothing about Twitter or its users, and it doesn’t mean that fictional depictions of underage sex are remotely comparable to actual depictions of such on this front. You’re missing the point entirely.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Do you have a point? First, graphic depictions of fictional sex are different from graphic depictions of actual sex. Second, given the fact that—by your own admission—you were unable to verify any actual instances of graphic depictions of child rape (fictional or real) exist on Twitter (which is the only site being discussed here), it wouldn’t even support your case even if we ignore the fact that these are all fictional and that that’s an important distinction to make.

And, BTW, the existence of graphic depictions of violence or child rape anywhere other than Twitter (or similarly popular sites geared towards a varied audience) is completely irrelevant. No one is talking about them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

My position is that a site that is a forum for millions of people to speak to each other on every topic under the sun should not be censoring speakers whom people want to hear,

They are not preventing people going to sites where the people they want to hear and talk with congregate.

or speech that is indisputably true.

When that speech is true but offensive and of no immediate relevance or importance you keep quiet.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I’m sure Musk will hire the very best people to advise him…

Forgive me if I don’t just accept that as true without definitive evidence of that. Until that demonstrably happens and I can verify that the so-called experts are actually relevant experts, I shall continue to have and express reservations over even the idea that Musk will take over Twitter.

More importantly, I don’t think someone with no experience in something should be in charge of a large business dedicated almost entirely to that thing even if they have “the best people” advising them. At best, that can only be a mitigation of my concerns, not a definitive solution. I recognize that this happens, but I don’t have to like it, and I still have good reasons to be critical of it.

As for demanding access, that’s not my position. My position is that a site that is a forum for millions of people to speak to each other on every topic under the sun should not be censoring speakers whom people want to hear, or speech that is indisputably true. That the sites can censor doesn’t mean that they should.

What you describe is literally demanding access. You may not be demanding that it must happen or that the government should require it, but it is still a demand. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

Also, we disagree on the word “censor”. I agree that sites should not censor, by which I mean saying “You can’t say that anywhere” or “You can’t say that here without receiving government-enforced punishment, legal action, or violence.” You are simply not describing what I would call “censorship” in these sorts of discussions.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

So do you also think that it is not censorship when public school curriculums are set so as not to teach woke gender ideology or critical race theory, and when libraries do not stock copies of Gender Queer?

Setting aside my opinion on those things (which is that they aren’t actually happening and so completely irrelevant), you’re talking about the government’s actions, so it doesn’t matter what I think about whether or not they’re censorship; they’re clearly distinguishable from anything Twitter has done in a way that is important for distinguishing censorship from moderation or discretion..

As such, my opinion on whether any of those are censorship and, if so, which one(s) is irrelevant to the argument I was making, so I see no reason to explain my position on that issue; it’s an entirely separate discussion.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

By my assessment, you and your kind won’t be happy as long as people are willing and able to voice opinions that contradict and ridicule your cherished beliefs.

[citation needed]

It’s strange, given that a major thesis of Techdirt is that silencing amplifies.

The Streisand Effect primarily relates to legal efforts to remove speech, such as legal threats and lawsuits.

More importantly, this is not about whether or not they can speak online at all but whether they can demand a particular audience and whether or not I want to hear them. And, in this case, it’s primarily that Musk doesn’t appear to know how to do moderation even as well as Twitter in terms of providing a generally desirable service.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Censoring people because you don’t want to hear them means that no one will be able to speak, because there is always going to be someone who doesn’t want to hear someone else

And it’s not a matter of demanding access to Twitter, it’s a matter of criticizing Twitter for viewpoint-based censorship. And it’s not a particular audience, it’s using a premiere site that people use to speak with each other instead of being shunted off to a minor site because of their viewpoint.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:10

it’s using a premiere site that people use to speak with each other instead of being shunted off to a minor site because of their viewpoint.

Not all viewpoints are of equal worth which is why a majority of people for example think that white supremacists and Nazis can fuck off to a deep damp dark cave to never be seen again.

The reality is that some viewpoints have been deemed entirely worthless or even detrimental to society, so why should a private actor having come to that conclusion provide resources for spreading such viewpoints?

You say you criticize Twitter for banning Trump, but the reality is that you are criticizing them for not extending a special treatment to him any longer. In essence, you are suggesting that what Twitter did is lese-majeste. Why would anyone want to create a privileged elite allowed to do as they please?

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Censoring people because you don’t want to hear them means that no one will be able to speak, because there is always going to be someone who doesn’t want to hear someone else.

This isn’t about censorship (“You can’t say that anywhere”); this is about moderation (“You can’t say that here”) and social consequences for speech.

Just because you can’t say it on Twitter doesn’t mean you can’t say it at all, even just restricting ourselves to speaking online.

“I don’t want to hear X, so I’ll go somewhere that doesn’t allow X,” and “I don’t want to hear X, so I won’t host X on my privately owned platform,” in no way prevent people from saying X anywhere else, and there are plenty of sites online where people can say just about anything without being banned or having it be removed. As such, nothing is being prevented from being said anywhere online; only from being said on certain platforms online. As long as it can be said somewhere online, it isn’t being prevented from being said online.

And precisely because people disagree on what they are or aren’t willing to hear and/or host, for any given statement, there will always be an online platform somewhere that is willing to host and display that statement on their platform, meaning no statement will be universally banned from the entire internet.

For these reasons, your assertion fails.

And it’s not a matter of demanding access to Twitter, it’s a matter of criticizing Twitter for viewpoint-based censorship.

Which is exactly the same as demanding that literally every viewpoint should have access to Twitter, so it’s a distinction without a relevant difference.

Also, outside of disfavoring transphobia (which I have no problem with and actually prefer because bigotry should be moderated), you have not demonstrated that Twitter actually engages in any viewpoint-based censorship to begin with.

And it’s not a particular audience, it’s using a premiere site that people use to speak with each other instead of being shunted off to a minor site because of their viewpoint.

Which is the same thing as demanding the particular audience of that premiere site. That’s literally a particular audience. It doesn’t matter how large or diverse that audience is; it’s still a particular audience, and no one is entitled (morally, ethically, or legally) to a particular audience under any circumstances (except the right to petition the government). Similarly, no one is entitled to share their viewpoint with Twitter’s audience.

This is a distinction with no difference whatsoever.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Thanks! I try!

BTW, I know it’s completely off-topic, but is there any particular reason you haven’t been involved in this one discussion on another article regarding whether or not you attacked someone for being disabled? I’ve been “defending” you (by which I mostly mean asking people to provide evidence of their accusations), and it seems odd that, of the three originally involved in the event, you’re the only one who hasn’t made another post on that article. I’m not saying you should get involved; I’m just curious if there’s a reason for your silence.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Eh, I didn’t feel the need to clarify what I meant, and I figured doing so would give the trolls even more ammo to drag me into an endless Internet slapfight. (For the record, I meant “it would be an insult for the differently abled to be lumped in with an asshole like you” when I said what I said.) I stopped (directly) responding to both Lostinlodos and Hyman Rosen for much the same reason.

Not Chozen says:

Re: Re: Re:9

And, in this case, it’s primarily that Musk doesn’t appear to know how to do moderation even as well as Twitter in terms of providing a generally desirable service.

But that’s not the reason people are leaving in droves. It’s to do with the lack of free speech in the public square. It’s just coincidence that loads of Twitterati are choosing to leave right now.

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JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Arguing from constricted definitions to make meaningless pedantic points is constricted, pedantic, and meaningless.

How is it a constricted definition? People using the ‘public square’ analogy are directly comparing Twitter to a plot of land that in ye old times was probably government owned. If it was privately owed then even if the public was (mostly) free to use it, the owners could still tell you to fuck off if they didn’t like your behavior. Sound familiar?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

According to one commenter here, you have to file 57 forms in triplicate at least two weeks out from you expect a trespasser on your property before you can legally ask them to maybe sorta leave if they feel like it.

You might know which one that is⁠—he’s the one who doesn’t know the difference between a public house and public housing.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

It’s a constricted definition because Twitter in fact functions as a place where millions of people with every opinion under the sun gather to chat with each other and express their views. Except when it doesn’t, when Twitter’s hand reaches down from above and plucks selected users away.

Again, the argument is not that Twitter should not be permitted to do what it’s doing, the argument is that Twitter should not be doing what it’s doing. It should aim to be more like a public square, not less like a public square. It should not be censoring speakers whom millions of people would like to hear because it does not like what those speakers are saying.

Woke ideologues have given up on freedom of all sorts and instead mock it (own-goaling free speech as “freeze peach”, for example), because the heathens are using their freedom wrong.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:7

It should not be censoring speakers whom millions of people would like to hear because it does not like what those speakers are saying.

So what where they saying?

Woke ideologues have given up on freedom of all sorts and instead mock it (own-goaling free speech as “freeze peach”, for example), because the heathens are using their freedom wrong.

You are the one that argues some people should have special privileges. You are the one arguing that freedom of association is bad. You are the one arguing that you are entitled to say whatever you want on other peoples property. You are arguing that you are entitled freedoms at the expense of other peoples freedom. You are the one arguing that it’s not about debate, it’s about getting your message to millions of people.

Don’t come here and talk about freedom when your very own arguments points to limiting other peoples freedom.

Exercising your rights and freedoms without discretion limits other peoples rights and freedoms which seems to be a concept totally alien to you.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If someone is so mentally ill that they will kill themselves over what someone else says, they need to be hospitalized until they are not a danger to themselves. But their mental illness cannot serve as a collar on the speech or actions of other people.

while there is a line between personal harassment directed at an individual and general statements, that line is not where woke ideologues would place it when the speech is intended to denigrate their beliefs. For example, the Babylon Bee awarding Man of the Year to Dr. Rachel Levine.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

If someone is so mentally ill that they will kill themselves over what someone else says, they need to be hospitalized until they are not a danger to themselves.

Or given whatever treatment is deemed necessary by the experts, which, in the case of transgender people, may include transitioning.

Furthermore, if what others say is a cause for the mental illness (which does happen, as in harassment, bullying, or bigotry) or if people use certain triggers of a mental illness (such as people with PTSD or certain forms of epilepsy) knowing that it will provoke such a response, then we have every reason to blame those people rather than the victims or the mental illness, and platform holders have every reason to want to avoid hosting such speech/people.

Frankly, “this person should be treated by professionals if they are such a danger to themself” in no way excuses the people who triggered the response.

Also, mental illness is not always a necessary condition for people to commit suicide, but we don’t really need to get into that.

But their mental illness cannot serve as a collar on the speech or actions of other people.

By the government? Generally speaking, no, it cannot and should not. By platform holders or society? It absolutely can and sometimes should.

while there is a line between personal harassment directed at an individual and general statements, […]

Agreed, but then we’re not really talking about general statements here, or at least you have not kept yourself to such limitations, regardless, defending both personal harassment (in the form of deadnaming and directly telling a transgender person that they are deluded and living a lie) and general statements (like “a man cannot become a woman” or “transgender people are deluded/have a mental illness”), so you don’t really get to hide behind such a distinction unless you’re willing to outright say that it is absolutely fine in your opinion for Twitter to ban the former on their platform but don’t agree with them banning the latter.

Also, I disagree that all general statements cannot and/or should not be considered potentially ban-worthy; I only agree that the distinction exists and can be important to consider when making moderation decisions. More importantly, I don’t agree that those are the only two relevant possibilities here, as will become clear.

[…] that line is not where woke ideologues would place it when the speech is intended to denigrate their beliefs.

It’s also not where you appear willing to place it, anyways, so why even bring it up?

For example, the Babylon Bee awarding Man of the Year to Dr. Rachel Levine.

Which doesn’t actually fall into either category. It is not a general statement as it is specifically about one particular person, nor is it personal harassment directed at an individual. It is a specific statement about—not directed at—an individual. As such, this isn’t really an example of anyone failing to distinguish between the two categories you mentioned.

Also, so what?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

“this person should be treated by professionals if they are such a danger to themself” in no way excuses the people who triggered the response.

“But they’re the ones who have to control their mental illness, why should I catch shit because they can’t be as strong as I am?” — Hyman Rosen, probably (but most definitely assholes like him who actually buy into that bullshit)

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

People are not responsible for the health, well-being, or safety of random strangers, and are under no obligation to control their words or behavior on the chance that those might terribly upset someone else. It is perfectly fine to publish drawings of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even if that will spur people to commit murder.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

People are not responsible for the health, well-being, or safety of random strangers, and are under no obligation to control their words or behavior on the chance that those might terribly upset someone else.

But if you already know (or have been informed) that such a thing will likely endanger the health, well-being, or safety of that random stranger, you are under a moral obligation to control your words and behavior such that you don’t do so. (We’re not talking about legal obligation here.) This isn’t about mere possibilities or mistakes from ignorance. You are also under a social obligation, IMO, to not be an a$$hole needlessly and deliberately.

It is perfectly fine to publish drawings of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban even if that will spur people to commit murder.

How that is remotely comparable to driving someone you know to have a mental illness to suicide, deliberately using one of their triggers to harass or harm them, or the situation you mentioned with someone being deadnamed and misgendered repeatedly (so ignorance is no excuse), I have no idea. Also, if Twitter decides that such drawings should not be on their platform, I would have no problem with that, nor would I consider it an infringement of free speech. They may legally have the right to publish such drawings, but they don’t have the right to do so on someone else’s privately owned platform.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Yes, I understand that woke gender ideologues don’t consider censorship of views they abhor as abrogation of free speech. That’s why we fight.

Personally driving someone you know to suicide? As far as I can tell, woke gender ideologues claim that generic statements, such as calling all trans or “non-binary” people deluded or mentally ill, drive trans people to suicide and should be censored. Actual malicious harassment targeted to single private individuals is, in fact, deserving of censorship. But targeting Dr. Rachel Levine, a public figure, for mockery in order to make a general point against woke gender ideology is not that sort of individual harassment and is fine. And targeting woke gender ideology in general is correct, because woke gender ideology is false, even if hearing that it is false will greatly upset people who believe in it.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

Yes, I understand that woke gender ideologues don’t consider censorship of views they abhor as abrogation of free speech.

Then by your own admission, they do value freedom, which was what I was trying to say. If you agree with that, then your earlier statement to the contrary is false.

Personally driving someone you know to suicide? As far as I can tell, woke gender ideologues claim that generic statements, such as calling all trans or “non-binary” people deluded or mentally ill, drive trans people to suicide and should be censored.

I was addressing specific instances that had come up in this thread primarily with regards to Twitter’s moderations policies, not every single thing anyone on the left has ever complained about as transphobic, but yes, calling all trans people mentally ill or deluded can be harmful to their health, possibly contributing to mental illness, particularly when directed towards a specific trans person. I fail to see how that changes anything regarding what I said.

Actual malicious harassment targeted to single private individuals is, in fact, deserving of censorship.

Agreed.

But targeting Dr. Rachel Levine, a public figure, for mockery in order to make a general point against woke gender ideology is not that sort of individual harassment and is fine.

False. That Dr. Rachel Levine is a public figure doesn’t mean she’s not an individual, so that fact alone doesn’t make it not individual harassment.

However, I never said it was individual harassment, so any such argument is moot. That it wasn’t individual harassment doesn’t make it fine, so that argument is invalid.

And targeting woke gender ideology in general is correct, because woke gender ideology is false, even if hearing that it is false will greatly upset people who believe in it.

The claims you’ve made about “woke gender ideology” are all either not something anyone actually claims (so targeting it is targeting a strawman), are actually true or reasonably true (so targeting it isn’t “correct”), or not banned on Twitter (so it is irrelevant in this discussion), so your premise is actually false.

The argument is also invalid because that something is false doesn’t necessarily mean that saying it is false is “correct” in every circumstance, if by “correct” you mean “okay”. If by “correct” you mean “true”, then this is a pointless argument that does nothing to support your case to begin with as the premise is false.

It is also irrelevant to the issue at hand, which is that Rachel Levine was being misgendered and deadnamed, which isn’t done to make a point about “woke gender ideology” but to express transphobic views about an individual (except when done in ignorance, which is not the case in either of the cases you presented). Since this is about statements about a specific individual and not just general statements about a particular ideology, it doesn’t matter whether or not targeting the ideology as a whole is “correct”.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

See, I have issues with the “dead” name issue. It’s more along the lines of right to be forgotten. Which I also disagree with. You posted, made, did… what you…!
Changing your name doesn’t undo the time you existed under the other.m name. And using the old name in current situations is partly correct. But the use of “former lay known as” would be more accurate. Even without the current name.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

https://www.thedailybeast.com/twitter-suspends-charlie-kirk-for-repeatedly-deadnaming-and-misgendering-rachel-levine

The “so what” is that as a public figure, Rachel Levine being “deadnamed” or “misgendered” should not get one banned from Twitter. Unless the point really is to disallow attacks on gender ideology altogether.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

The link adds nothing new to the discussion.

The “so what” is that as a public figure, Rachel Levine being “deadnamed” or “misgendered” should not get one banned from Twitter.

Why not?

Unless the point really is to disallow attacks on gender ideology altogether.

False dichotomy. Attacks on people are not attacks on their ideology.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

To clarify regarding the hyperlink, it just mentions someone else being banned for repeatedly deadnaming and misgendering the exact same person that was misgendered in the previous link you posted. Nothing about the new story changes anything that the previous one didn’t. It’s just another example of the exact same thing, something which no one here is claiming doesn’t happen, so posting it in addition to the already existing link adds nothing new.

Look, no one is saying that Twitter doesn’t ban people who deadname or misgender transgender people. We all agree that it does, and that it does so in accordance with its policy (and so is not an isolated event). You can point out all the examples of this that you want, but in regards to whether or not it does happen, you’re preaching to the choir here. What that story does not do is address any of the things I said or demonstrate that banning deliberate deadnaming and misgendering on Twitter is something that should not happen. Nor does the rest of the comment do so.

All that the two links establish are that Rachel Levine is a transgender public figure and that there are at least two instances of Twitter banning people for deliberately misgendering and/or deadnaming her. This in no way helps your case. It doesn’t offer a reason why this is in any way a bad thing; it and you merely assert that it’s bad. That is not an argument that it is bad or shouldn’t happen.

That’s why I said “so what?” You’ve established that an event occurred that no one disputes occurred. Now you’ve asserted another such event targeting the exact same individual. So what? How does that prove the claims you’ve made thus far that such a thing should not occur on Twitter? Were you expecting us to side with the ones who got banned without you even giving a reason why? I have no idea why you’d expect that given that everyone else here believes that deadnaming and misgendering are bad and that either Twitter should ban them or that it banning them is not a problem that should be solved.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

I had not previously read Twitter’s rules about deadnaming carefully enough; they do say that targeted deadnaming of an individual is prohibited, and likely do not prohibit accurate historical reporting of names as in Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner or Ellen/Elliot Page. So I thought that maybe I was wrong about Twitter’s policy, and that it was actually OK.

But Dr. Levine is a public figure and a government official. Attacking and mocking public officials has been part of political discourse for as long as political discourse has existed, including for personal appearance and habits. Trump is orange and has short fingers. Biden is doddering. Ford trips over himself.

Dr. Levine does not make a very convincing woman (when my wife first saw Dr. Levine in a photo, she thought in all seriousness that it had been photoshopped by The Onion), and so makes a strong visual argument that men cannot be transformed into women as woke gender ideology would have it. That’s why the satire is so effective, and why woke gender ideologies wanted Twitter to ban it.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

That Rachel Levine is a public figure is completely and utterly irrelevant. That’s still targeted deadnaming. You don’t write biographies or histories on Twitter.

Also, you’re discussing the standards for whether or not the 1A applies, not to social rules or general principles governing general discussions. While mocking public figures is acceptable, there are still lines that are considered inappropriate to cross. Not all mocking is generally considered acceptable in every context.

Finally, that Rachel Levine doesn’t look “convincing” is completely irrelevant. Insofar as it relates to the ability of transwomen to pass as women, one example of one who can’t (or chooses not to) doesn’t refute the countless other examples of transwomen who can and do pass seamlessly as women. But regardless, that doesn’t help your case about Twitter’s rules at all, which ban deadnaming and misgendering individuals. People objecting to deadnaming and misgendering don’t care whether or not the person passes well as their gender identity, so whether or not the “satire” is effective has nothing to do with it.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

1A is not relevant here, since Twitter is a private company. Neither is 1A synonymous with freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is a concept, and 1A is an implementation of it directed against governments. The argument being made against Twitter is that Twitter should be more supportive of free speech than it is, and that it’s rules are bad and directed towards supporting left-wing policies. Part of that is that mocking and “deadnaming” public officials should be fair game.

You may not agree with the argument, and that’s fine. But that’s what the argument is.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I just noted something was missing from this part:

Or given whatever treatment is deemed necessary by the experts, which, in the case of transgender people, may include transitioning.

It should be followed by this:

It is also expected for employers, educational institutions, medical institutions, government institutions (like jails), etc. to make reasonable accommodations for them, which can include allowing transgender people to use the restroom/locker room they are most comfortable with or safest in or designing restrooms and/or locker rooms in such a way that they are more private and are gender-neutral (much like how public restrooms are supposed to included at least one stall that works for wheelchair users).

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

While I’m clarifying things about this comment, I might as well say something about this:

But their mental illness cannot serve as a collar on the speech or actions of other people.

By the government? Generally speaking, no, it cannot and should not.

The reason I said “generally” rather than commit to full on “no” is because there are situations where the government should get involved, especially when dealing with public institutions and public employees, but I was specifically thinking of the case of the guy who deliberately tried to induce a seizure in someone he knew had epilepsy via Tweet, for which he was charged with a crime.

Note the fact that he knew of his target’s condition and that he was not only fully aware of the likely results of his speech on someone with that condition but fully intended it to occur. This is important to keep in mind. It is also an exception rather than the rule. Hence why I worded it as I did.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

No. Reasonable accommodations for trans people cannot include forcing women to allow men into their single-sex spaces in violation of religious, social, and cultural norms and taboos, any more than reasonable accommodations for Jews, Muslims, and Hindus can include forcing the cafeteria not to serve bacon cheeseburgers.

Woke ideologues are always seeking to grant their favored classes special privileges by trampling over the rights of others.

Lostinlodos (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Er hm, why not?
That’s always been the change track.in reverse order

No blacks allowed
Before that, no Jews
Before that no Irish (and religion was only part of that)
No Chinese or Indian
No French/British/Spanish

Every one of those changes to access was uncomfortable for a large population.
How is this different? Remember contact with a black man made you stupid.
And if you touch an Asian your eyes become slanted. Irish we’re vermin. And those red people would make you all sorts of sick.
Don’t go in the house of a menstruating women. You soul will be damaged.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Well, woke ideologues believe that claims of racial equality and fairness in the US are a lie despite laws that purport to ensure it, so why would you expect a better outcome with respect to trans people?

With respect to racial and ethnic equality, the people on the side of justice and fairness argued that there should be no distinction in how different races and ethnicities were treated. But woke gender ideologues do not argue (for the most part) that sex segregation should be eliminated. They are arguing that people should be allowed into the wrong ones based on claimed identity rather than actual identity. Does that matter? I don’t know, maybe?

Even if everyone agreed that men who claim they’re women should be allowed into women’s spaces, they would nevertheless remain men. No amount of agreement can change physical reality.

But yes, you can definitely try forcing the issue. And as you see, the other side will apply force as well. This is why we have a culture *war*.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

No. Reasonable accommodations for trans people cannot include forcing women to allow men into their single-sex spaces in violation of religious, social, and cultural norms and taboos, any more than reasonable accommodations for Jews, Muslims, and Hindus can include forcing the cafeteria not to serve bacon cheeseburgers.

Which religious, social, or cultural taboos are violated by having someone of the opposite sex in an adjacent but isolated stall in a state of undress or while you are in a state of undress?

Also, safety trumps taboos in all instances.

And my proposal doesn’t involve allowing men into single-sex areas at all but making only gender-neutral areas that remove the need for single-sex areas.

As for social or cultural norms, I frankly don’t care. If those norms are causing harms without a good reason, they should be done away with.

Woke ideologues are always seeking to grant their favored classes special privileges by trampling over the rights of others.

How is anything I suggested giving anyone special privileges or trampling over anyone’s rights?

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Safety does not trump anything. Safety is a stratagem used by the woke to try to control discourse and behavior that they are trying to suppress. It is a way of applying emotional blackmail to override someone else’s wishes.

Your desire to do away with cultural norms in no way obligates anyone to listen to you. You are welcome to try to convince people to change, or to use force to get your way. In the latter case, expect to be met by force resisting you.

As a sample cultural taboo, every teen sex comedy ever portrays men as willing to use whatever strategy they can to see arbitrary women naked against their will. We also have the tropes of the subway flasher and the dick-pic sender as a cultural stereotype that men are eager to expose their genitalia to arbitrary women who do not want to see them. Whether you like it or not, we are socialized to regard intrusion by the wrong sex into single-sex bathrooms and locker rooms as squicky and possibly dangerous. That does not even begin to cover religious laws against seeing people of the opposite sex nude. Whether you like it or not, religious freedom is written into the Constitution and strengthened by a variety of federal and state Religious Freedom acts.

Given that woke gender ideology is false, steps on people’s norms, and affects only a tiny percentage of the population, it’s a prime own-goal by the left to have made it such a prominent issue. But you do you.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Encouraging someone to commit suicide is not the same as refusing to affirm someone’s beliefs, even if they choose to commit suicide as a result. If someone were to commit suicide after a bad breakup, it would not have been the responsibility of the other person to stay in the relationship to prevent that, even if they threatened to do that.

Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It doesn’t limit other people’s freedom, it limits their happiness. And that’s fine.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Correct, they are not entitled to that. But Twitter, as a forum where people speak, should grant its speakers those abilities anyway. Just because Twitter can abrogate the free speech of its users does not mean that it should. Just because Twitter may abrogate the free speech of its users, that does not immunize them from the criticism and consequences of doing so.

Right now, Twitter’s censorship lines up with woke ideology, so woke ideologues, valuing force over freedom, are pleased. It is my hope that if Musk takes over, Twitter will change its rules in a way that will make woke ideologues unhappy, and then we will be able to parrot all of these arguments back at them.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Correct, they are not entitled to that. But Twitter, as a forum where people speak, should grant its speakers those abilities anyway.

Why should they?

Just because Twitter can abrogate the free speech of its users does not mean that it should.

And you have yet to present a good argument that it should not.

Just because Twitter may abrogate the free speech of its users, that does not immunize them from the criticism and consequences of doing so.

I never said otherwise.

Right now, Twitter’s censorship lines up with woke ideology, so woke ideologues, valuing force over freedom, are pleased.

The only alleged example you have given of any of this is Twitter’s policy on deadnaming and misgendering, which doesn’t actually fall under actual woke ideologies but is based on just basic human decency and the current scientific understanding of human sexuality. You have also failed to present a decent argument that this is a bad thing. Everything else you’ve claimed as woke ideology is not used to ban things on Twitter at all, and everything else you say is banned on Twitter has nothing to do with woke ideology—either as it actually is or as you claim it is.

As such, you have failed to back up this assertion in any meaningful way, so it remains entirely speculative on your part at this time.

It is my hope that if Musk takes over, Twitter will change its rules in a way that will make woke ideologues unhappy, and then we will be able to parrot all of these arguments back at them.

If that happens, they’ll likely have already left, so you’ll be parroting to the void.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

It doesn’t limit your freedom if I don’t let you into my (hypothetical) hotel or kick you out of my hotel (not necessarily literally) because you won’t abide by my rules, either. Similarly, it doesn’t limit your freedom to speak if Twitter kicks you off their platform for not abiding by their rules. It only limits your freedom to speak on Twitter, specifically, which is not a freedom which society generally agrees is either universal or absolute.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Neither is removing woke gender ideology from Florida’s public-school curriculum. But listen to woke gender ideologues caterwaul that it’s “don’t say gay”. People can go somewhere else to “say gay” after all, and there is no question that a state has the Constitutional right to set its own curriculum.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

It’s a constricted definition because Twitter in fact functions as a place where millions of people with every opinion under the sun gather to chat with each other and express their views.

So what? Also, that’s not the only reason people use Twitter; many (like me) use it passively, and others use it for marketing or logging into other services.

Except when it doesn’t, when Twitter’s hand reaches down from above and plucks selected users away.

Because those users refuse to abide by the rules of the platform. You have yet to demonstrate that this is a problem; many would consider it a feature.

Again, the argument is not that Twitter should not be permitted to do what it’s doing, the argument is that Twitter should not be doing what it’s doing.

An argument that you have failed to support.

It should aim to be more like a public square, not less like a public square.

In your broad definition of a public square that doesn’t limit itself to publicly-owned areas, such a thing is—at best—purely aspirational, doesn’t actually exist, and has never existed. It is also impractical when operating at such massive scales.

I would argue that Twitter operates about as much like a public square as it both can and should. You may disagree, but so far, you’ve not given any reason why.

It should not be censoring speakers whom millions of people would like to hear because it does not like what those speakers are saying.

Why not? You assert this as if it’s a given, but you fail to give any actual reason for it. I would also argue that those millions of people can go somewhere else and are either fewer in number than those who are offended by what those speakers are saying and/or less important to avoid making unhappy than to protect those who are harmed by what those speakers are saying.

Just because someone wants to say something and millions want to hear it is not a sufficient reason for any particular platform—no matter how large—should host it regardless of their opinion of it.

You also have the cause-and-effect backwards. Twitter is big largely because it hosts the most speech most people want to hear and the least speech most people don’t want to hear, at least out of those who want to use social media at all. People who use Twitter want it to moderate more-or-less as it does, which is why they use it in the first place. You have not offered a good reason why Twitter should become the platform you want rather than the platform that the majority of its users want, nor have you demonstrated that a majority of its users want Twitter to be the platform you want it to be.

Woke ideologues have given up on freedom of all sorts […]

False. Freedom to ignore speech, freedom of speech (even if not how you define it), freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and so on are still desired. They just don’t agree with your definitions of those freedoms.

[…] and instead mock it (own-goaling free speech as “freeze peach”, for example), because the heathens are using their freedom wrong.

No, because they believe that some are defining “free speech” wrong and/or are hypocritical in their defense of what they call “free speech”. Many actually do use it wrong, both equating it with the 1st Amendment’s protection of free speech and saying that it means private companies can’t moderate their platforms as they wish and/or they can’t receive consequences for their speech. These are the sorts of people being mocked with responses like “freeze peach”. It is not a mockery of free speech in general, at least as the mockers define it.

It’s not about people using their freedom wrong but about people being unwilling to accept the consequences for exercising their freedom and/or that others have the same freedoms to enact such consequences in response to another’s exercising their freedoms.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Woke ideologues use Orwell as a manual rather than a warning, and define freedom to be only freedom for themselves. They can do as they like, but they cannot do it unopposed.

There is nothing a woke ideologue hates more than to be laughed at, which is why satirical attacks are so effective – fiery but peaceful, man of the year, impossible pussy, and so on.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Twitter is a forum for public speech.

So are Gab and Parler.

No one reads Twitter for the opinions of the Twitter owners. People read and write on Twitter to communicate and argue with each other.

Irrelevant. People choose Twitter in part because they like the way Twitter’s owners moderate.

I have never said that Twitter “must be” a public square. Twitter should be a public square to best fulfill its purpose.

Actually, you have previously stated that Twitter is a public square, and you have argued that Twitter should be regulated as such.

Also, I would argue that banning the worst speech while keeping the most good speech is what is best for Twitter to fulfill its purpose.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I have said that Twitter is a public square because that’s the function it performs for its users. I have ever said that Twitter should be “regulated in that way”, or indeed, in any way. Twitter is a private company and can do as it likes. It should like to do better than it is doing now. It should like to not censor based on viewpoint. Whether it will do that under ew ownership remains to be seen. I hope that whatever new policies it adopts will anger woke ideologues.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

The woke ideologues who are dismayed that a former president and indisputably factual statements might no longer be banned from Twitter under new ownership claim, or hope, that removing such bans will drive people off Twitter. But that will only be true if people who don’t like that content don’t find the benefits of Twitter outweighing its presence.

Contrariwise, if it’s mainly woke ideologues who choose to leave, that will be a benefit for everyone who stays, since there will be fewer ridiculously wrong opinions present.

Or just think of advertiser-supported television, websites, and periodicals. The fact that ads are widely disliked and interrupt the media that people are viewing is not sufficient to drive most people away.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

indisputably factual statements

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