Ways In Which Elon Musk’s Twitter Takeover Could Be Good
from the always-look-on-the-bright-side-of-life dept
With it looking almost certain that Elon Musk will own Twitter in the very near future, a lot of people are freaking out, and I did think it was worthwhile to explore ways in which this might actually be good. At this point, I think it’s quite clear that Elon Musk’s comments about Twitter show an incredible disconnect from how any of this works, and he’s about to discover that his ridiculously naïve ideas about how Twitter should work, will not work in practice. I stand by the idea that his beliefs for how Twitter should work are unlikely to be good in the long run, if implemented in the manner he claims to want them implemented. And, of course, Musk’s reputation for how he treats workers at his companies remains reprehensible. His views towards many marginalized groups seems equally disgraceful, and I know many people are — for good reason — fearing that they will be put at risk. Other tech companies are going to lead a feeding frenzy on Twitter’s best employees, and a ton of important and useful institutional knowledge is going to rush out the exits. And a lot of it is going to be the institutional knowledge that could help Musk realize why he’s wrong on so much of this.
That said, there are some ways in which the Musk takeover could be good for Twitter. First, simply taking Twitter private could be the best thing for the company. In the past, I’ve spoken about how Wall Street’s quarterly demands on Twitter were bad for the company and were likely going to get in the way of the more lofty vision of rethinking how Twitter should work. Short term focus on growing profits and the userbase were a real risk towards a long term focus on rethinking Twitter’s role in enabling conversation.
As a private company, Twitter will have a lot more room to maneuver without the quarterly drumbeat and threats from more short-sighted Wall St. folks who have been demanding a more short term profit focus, over long term company viability. Of course, while Musk has said he’s not interested in the economics of the deal, he has lined up a bunch of Wall St. banks to help him finance the deal, and they are still going to demand a return, meaning that this is likely only a brief reprieve from the Wall St. drumbeat, and it’s not clear that there would really be enough time for the long term focus to take hold.
Next, despite the many reasons I’ve explained why Musk’s view of Twitter remains laughably naïve, I actually think that many of the ideas he’s presented show a good initial instinct for someone who has no actual experience managing such a website. Talking about viewing the site as instrumental for free speech, about dealing with the spam and scams, and also about open sourcing the algorithm, are, in fact, good first thoughts. Indeed, they’re so good that they’re the kinds of thoughts that were around when Twitter first got started, and helped build the company into what it became today.
Of course, getting from there to where we are now happened for many good reasons (and a few bad ones). And that’s part of why I argued earlier that most of Elon’s ideas for how content moderation should work are actually taking Twitter back to square one. There are reasons why every social media company — no matter how much they insist they’re about “free speech” — end up in a similar spot with regards to content moderation. And it’s not because “woke” employees demand it. It’s because everyone learns that this is a massive, impossible challenge, and there are only so many ways to approach it. And, contrary to public perception, Twitter is at the leading edge of the learning curve on this issue. If a lot of that institutional knowledge doesn’t walk out the door and can educate Musk on why his initial views are behind the times, it could allow the company to continue to make big steps forward. Of course, that’s a really, really big “if.”
Either way, even if Twitter did make the changes Musk suggested he’d make, just like every other “free speech” website out there, he’d quickly have to realize how unworkable it is, and it’s likely that Twitter would move back to the same model every other company uses, because otherwise, they’d be hemorrhaging users very, very quickly.
However, back to his first thoughts: there are many, many people who think they know how to “fix” social media, and most of their ideas are terrible and unrealistic. Musk’s are also terrible and unrealistic, but they actually come from a similar sensibility to those who have built successful social media platforms (just woefully unrealistic). As I explained in my earlier post, “open sourcing” the algorithm is not nearly as simple as Musk seems to think it is, but if his instincts are to make the platform more open, more transparent, and even more friendly to developers, that provides some opportunities as well Jack Dorsey and Parag Agarwal have actually made a big move towards a form of open sourcing Twitter with the funding and support of the Bluesky project, and if Musk is serious about “open sourcing” aspects of Twitter, he could do even more to embrace that. Dorsey has long supported the idea of “algorithmic choice” which is not quite open sourcing the algorithm, but is a much smarter approach to all of this, and Musk could embrace that as part of his plan as well.
Of course, much of this really boils down to the fact that (perhaps contrary to public opinion), Twitter has actually done a lot of very thoughtful moves in the past few years, towards making the platform much better, and much more resilient for those purposes. In other words, contrary to Musk’s claims, I think if he really understood what Dorsey did over the past few years, and Agarwal’s initial efforts to date, I think he’d realize that it’s actually much closer to his own vision (more openness, more about serving democracy) than he thinks. So, really, if Musk can allow them to keep doing that (perhaps in an accelerated fashion) without the fear and pressure of Wall Street, it could lead to something good. Unfortunately, though, given some of his initial statements, his reputation for how he treats workers, not to mention his reputation towards marginalized groups, I fear that much of the institutional knowledge necessary to make all this work is already rapidly heading for the exits.
And that leads us to one final way in which Musk’s takeover could be good: it could accelerate the success of an alternative space that takes on the role that Twitter currently holds. Whether that’s some other company stepping up and becoming that space, whether it’s an embrace of something like ActivityPub/Mastodon, whether it’s something entirely new, certainly is impossible to predict. But, having seen massively popular and successful companies collapse in the past, the demand for such tools doesn’t magically disappear with them. Someone will step in to fill the void if Musk messes it up.
Filed Under: content moderation, elon musk, free speech, institutional knowledge, open source
Companies: twitter
Comments on “Ways In Which Elon Musk’s Twitter Takeover Could Be Good”
Musk
Why not create his own, or Pay Twitter to Copy their software and have updates over the next 5 years?
And if it fails, he can hand the Hardware and software back to Twitter. and Loose allot less money.
Battle of the Chats. Round 78, for all those that have come before.
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Re: Musk
The primary value of twitter is not the software, nor the hardware it runs on. Its largest asset is its userbase. Techdirt here had a good article on anti-rivalrous goods, which increase in value the more they are used. The article was written years back with regards to copyright, but the same concept applies to social media.
Re: Re:
Bravely bold Sir koby
Rode forth from the Internet.
He was not afraid to die,
Oh brave Sir koby.
He was not at all afraid
To be killed in nasty ways.
Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir koby.
He was not in the least bit scared
To be mashed into a pulp.
Or to have his eyes gouged out,
And his elbows broken.
To have his kneecaps split
And his body burned away,
And his limbs all hacked and mangled
Brave Sir koby.
His head smashed in
And his heart cut out
And his liver removed
And his bowls unplugged
And his nostrils raped
And his bottom burnt off
And his penis
“That’s, that’s enough music for now lads, there’s dirty work afoot.”
Brave Sir koby ran away.
(“No!”)
Bravely ran away away.
(“I didn’t!”)
When danger reared it’s ugly head,
He bravely turned his tail and fled.
(“I never!”)
Yes, brave Sir koby turned about
And gallantly he chickened out.
(“You’re lying!”)
Re: Re: REALLY?
so if there was an imitator?
The would mind thet they WERNT censoring?? REALLY>>>
Get that rubber Aluminum hat off please.
Re: Re: so?
take the hard and take the software and what is there??
An idiot with a chat prog that will run afoul of 26 different sites that made CHAT programs.
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Re: Re: What is the criteria?
Mike posits that it is possible for Musk’s takeover to be “good”, bad, or (it follows) a mixture.
This means Mike is willing to make value judgments on Twitter’s performance in the future. What criteria will Mike use to judge whether Twitter is better or worse under Musk’s leadership in say three, six, and 12 months?
A few bullets for each category (good/better and bad/worse) listed here should clear things up.
Is this a workable list?
Good:
– User numbers increase
– Ex-users return
– Increased engagement between users (more replies per individual tweets)
– An important one: the policy of who gets to be ‘verified’ is transparent instead of its current arbitrary application
Bad:
– User numbers decline
– Ex-users don’t return
– Decreased engagement between users
– The ‘verification’ policy remains vague and unevenly implemented and enforced
Now, how will everyone here at Techdirt judge Musk’s failures/successes in the future? Let’s see who’s willing to lay their cards on the table.
Personally I see no valid objections to what I’ve laid out in my lists above, but would be interested in hearing if others see flaws in my logic.
I’d especially like to know if anyone thinks my characterization of the ‘verification’ policy (or whatever they call the awarding of the famous Blue Checkmark) as absolute dogshite is incorrect. Because as far as I know, everyone (well, besides Blue Checkmarks aka The Anointed) considers it garbage. Why it’s garbage could probably be argued, but that it’s garbage can’t IMO.
Correct me if I’m wrong but I think the ‘verification’ thing started out as simply ‘you’re who you say you are’ with no value judgments on the user. Then certain parties objected that certain controversial people possessed the Blue Checkmark, instead of it being seen as a simple ‘verified status’ it was seen as an endorsement by Twitter. (Noe that only morons ever thought this, but many clever people pretended to think this). Then instead of clarifying what ‘verified’ means and starting over from scratch, they grandfathered a bunch of people, de-verified others, and AFAIK never actually cleaned up the policy.
Re: Re: Re:
“This means Mike is willing to hold onto hope that Twitter has a future.”
FTFY. YW. ;p
Re: Re: Re:
Running Twitter in a way that craters the value of the service Tumblr-style would be a failure. Avoiding that fate would be a success. Anything else is shit I don’t need (or want) to care about.
Re: Re: Re:2
So Elon Musk could be to Twitter what Yahoo was to Tumblr? Wow.
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Re: Re: Re:2 You're right
I’ll concur on this one as well.
I don’t know what the percentage of porn v. non-porn Tumblr was, but I think the general consensus is that Tumblr’s main attraction was the porn. Tumblr committed suicide when it banned porn.
Thing is, I think even Musk’s most strident critics don’t accuse him of being stupid , and to forcefully tank Twitter to the degree that Tumblr tanked would mean banning the reason people come to Twitter: to talk to other people.
TL;DR – Twitter banning written communications = Tumblr banning porn
Re: Re: Re:3
Not…really? The porn ban wasn’t seen as a ban on just pornographic images and text—it was seen as the first step towards a sanitized “corporate-friendly” Tumblr that could sell shitloads of ads on users’ dashboards without worrying about those ads popping up next to a GIF of two people having sex. Of course, when such bans go into place, queer content is hit hard, often, and early; that Tumblr had a sizeable LGBT community was a reason for worry that the porn ban would strike at them after all the dirty GIFs and videos were taken care of.
The porn ban wasn’t trying to take away the primary draw of Tumblr. But the mass exodus of users (and thus of value) caused by the porn ban sure as shit didn’t help anyone.
Not publicly, anyway.
He wouldn’t need to ban that functionality—he would need only to cut down on moderation to the point where Twitter becomes unpalatable for a shitload of people. And wouldn’t you know it, everything he’s said about “free speech” implies he’ll end up taking that sort of approach.
He could also ban porn. But I don’t think he’s that fucking stupid.
Re: Re: Re:4
“He wouldn’t need to ban that functionality—he would need only to cut down on moderation to the point where Twitter becomes unpalatable for a shitload of people”
He missed out one word – “to talk to other people comfortably”.
If someone is using Twitter to discuss LGBTQ issues, political issues, hell even movies, and their conversation that used to be polite and unmolested suddenly becomes the target for attacks by other people – they will go elsewhere. Not moderating one person’s “speech” could result in dozens of other users leaving because they’re tired of being attacked.
Basically, if one person’s idea of “talking to other people” is being an edgelord shitbag, and they get their “freedom” to do this, other people who were previously having a reasoned discussion will have their reason to use the site removed.
I think that this is the problem that Musk faces, and I don’t think it’s one that he is equipped to address correctly. He might “improve” the service and increase “free speech”, but if the end result is more people trying to have intelligent debate about their favourite hobbies are interrupted by complaints that a TV series acknowledges that gay people exist or that their fantasy video game is historically inaccurate because there’s black people (in the same universe that magic and dragons exist) – people are going to look for a better moderated service to have those conversations. And that’s just the casual conversations that become unbearable, not the people who are the direct targets of abuse.
Re: Re: Re:
Notice how the two “ex-users return” entries are conspicuously in the wrong categories, especially if one values free and open communication.
Re: Re: Re:2 Am I reading this right?
How so? You think people who departed Twitter coming back to it due to Musk-initiated changes would be a sign Twitter is not doing better??
So, your position, toom, is it will be a sign that Twitter is doing great under Musk if people who left under Dorsey don’t come back? More users joining or returning voluntarily to Twitter will be a sign the company is doing badly?
If I’m misreading you, let me know. (I did go back and check to make sure I hadn’t mistakenly put them under the wrong categories.)
Also, this part seems a non sequitur: “… especially if one values free and open communication.” Can you clarify?
Re: Re: Re:3
Don’t play dumb about the Nazi Bar problem.
Everyone can still see the part where the majority of those banned from twitter are of the lowest sort – the kind that attacks and drives away any reasonable person. Gab still exists, after all. Don’t even start with gaslighting us that they’re all innocents like TAC.
Bring in that minority amount of trash, and twitter will lose the majority of its users – creating the narrowed participation in free speech that right-wing anti-speech fascists like you like crave. Naturally, advertisers will also flee to avoid these negative associations with their brands, which combined with the massive decrease in eyeballs will give twitter a financial hemhorrage from such an act of shooting themself in the foot.
Re: Re: Re:4
This phenomenon is also called, appropriately enough, the “Worst People” Problem.
Re: Re: Re:3
“You think people who departed Twitter coming back to it due to Musk-initiated changes would be a sign Twitter is not doing better?”
Depending on the people, sure. If the site was better off without them, and they make it a worse place to be due to their presence, thus driving off significant numbers of other people who are a bigger driver of revenue for the site, that’s a real problem.
We’ll have to wait for a while to see what the actual effect is, but I don’t personally see “people who threw a tantrum when Trump was shown the door piling back in to gloat when they thing he might be let back in” as being a net positive for the service. (to give one examples of some people who have “returned”).
On the flipside, there’s also long-time users who have decided to cancel their accounts, but as usual since they’re doing it quietly they don’t get as much attention as the loudmouths.
Re: Re: Re:
You’re wrong (you asked to be told if you were), though only partially.
Verified users has gone through multiple phases. First phase was very, very limited to extremely high profile celebrity type accounts, based on a legit fear of impersonation, and the fact that those kinds of celebrities were interested in embracing Twitter but were scared about impersonation.
Second phase was opened to everyone, but there were some rules and an application process (a cumbersome one). That process became overrun with all sorts of problems I won’t detail here, but Twitter determined that it was completely unworkable and had been abused. (FWIW, Musk seems to want to go back to this policy, which again, the people who implemented it said it didn’t work properly ever).
So the entire thing was scrapped and started again from scratch (just like you’re saying they should have done). Then, after a couple years of exploring different options and ideas, they finally re-opened it to the public, but limited to specific categories of users, and clarified the policy (again the opposite of your claim): https://blog.twitter.com/en_us/topics/company/2021/relaunching-verification-and-whats-next
That’s not say it doesn’t still have problems, because it does. And it doesn’t mean that there still aren’t oddities. Just as an example, I’m verified, though I never asked to be (even when it was open enrollment). It literally just showed up one day with no notification.
Re: Re: Re:2
Thanks. I appreciate the clarification.
Re: Re: Re:
Hi Elon!
Re:
“Why not create his own, or Pay Twitter to Copy their software and have updates over the next 5 years?”
The real value of a successful social media company is not its software, but its brand and databases. A new service has to attract users, and it’s unlikely that “Twitter, but with more Musk” or “Twitter, with all the bigots who got banned” is going to attract users on the same level as the OG.
And that could include older alternatives. I hear Tumblr is still around and kicking—and has been undergoing something of a renaissance in the past few years, based on what some electronic friends of mine tell me.
And if one of the main financial backers of Musk’s takeover is Trump?
Re:
Whether that turns out to be the case is irrelevant in only one regard: If Musk does buy Twitter, Trump will get his account back.
Re:
[Asserts facts… Oh, wait.
Re: Trump Funding This?
Oh, my naive child.
People like Trump DO NOT invest their own money, ever, ever.
They take other people’s money and play with it until it is gone. These other people are known as the marks.
Re:
There may be things Trump has to offer that Musk wants, but do you seriously believe money is one of them?
Re:
Trumps broke.
Re:
Musk is, on paper anyway, an actual billionaire. Trump got his cut and run income from his Pravda network, but that’s not a fraction of what Musk is offering to buy, and it’s unlikely Trump has much more to offer.
o_0
“Musk’s reputation for how he treats workers at his companies remains reprehensible.”
Might explain all the Teslas involved in crashes and fatalities.
IF he puts the RWNJ including forcing the former guy back on social media then no positive change could make it worth that NOTHING would be worth that.
Re: One step forward, an olympic marathon back
All the more so because if people thought America’s Biggest Sore Loser was bad on social media before just wait until he and his cultists are given the greenlight and told once more than rules are for other people.
Re: Re:
a guy smoking on a plane forgetting all sense of morality and thought just a day after masks on transport being spiked by the unqualified… not a coincidence these things are not just connected but causal.
Re: Re:
“America’s Biggest Sore Loser”
I’m guessing that’s a reference to Trump inciting a violent insurrection in response to the American electorate telling him, “You’re fired!”
Re: Re: Re:
I certainly can’t think of anyone else who deserves the title of ‘(sore) loser’ more than him.
Re: Re: Re:2
It was a joke. I was simply trying to get in an Apprentice reference.
Re: Re: Re:3
Fair enough, it can be hard to tell the tone of a comment sometimes.
I see this buyout causing a mass exodus of employees. What would motivate current employees to stay? A private buyout means all employee stock options will immediately vest and pay out when the deal closes.
Why would anyone stay on and work for a known monster for just a salary when the vast majority of the employees could easily gain employment at a firm with equity incentives?
Re:
Same reason anybody stays at any shitty job, I guess.
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Re: I AGREE
I agree all these tech employees in San Francisco should just quit their jobs and go find a new one.
Re: Re:
Then you wouldn’t be able to use their products to publicly humiliate yourself anymore.
The general vibe I’m getting from the article is that if Musk can reign in his ego, listen to and admit that other people might know more on the subject than him things have a possibility of going well.
Arguably I’m not that familiar with the guy but based upon previous articles I’m sure that will work out great.
Re:
While he’s quite stubborn, he does tend to listen to people who are more knowledgeable and/or present solid arguments.
At least that’s the way Ashlee Vance lays it out in her book about him.
Re: Re:
If he actually sits down and reads even a tiny slice of the institutional knowledge regarding this.
We know he did it for Tesla and SpaceX, if we trust his official biography.
Right now, though? I’ll only believe it if he actually listens to Dorsey or Mike. And he hasn’t shown signs of listening to either.
Re: Re: Re:
In the past, it seems like he had to get into the actual work before starting to learn about it. So if he starts working on/with Twitter, it’ll hopefully be the eye-opener we would like it to be.
Re:
* rein
Re: Re:
Grammaticaster.
Re: Re:
Ah english, multiple words that sound the same but mean very different things… thanks for the correction.
Re: Re: Re:
If I’m afraid of using those words incorrectly, am I a homophobe?
I think it is important to note that Musk right now thinks that he succeeds by ignoring institutional knowlege.
“You can’t do electric cars” people said. So he ignored that and made Tesla. It doesn’t matter that he still hasn’t actually figured out building the cars, Tesla was continuing to fail to meet production expectations before COVID need I remind everyone, or that his supposed goal in building Tesla, combatting climate change, is undermined when they can’t provide a budget car. Nor does it matter that other tech advancements and a shift in public opinion have occurred to help make this successful. He made electric cars work when others couldn’t.
“You can’t do reusable rockets!” Well, you couldn’t. Again, advancements in microcontrollers and wireless telemetry and AI likely played a significant role in Space X’s success, much as technological development played a major role in the smartphone or the tablet finally succeeding. The issue with reusable rockets was practicality. Musk spent billions getting the tech to work, and the savings will take longer than the 15 years of development to see a return. But none of that matters, his vision made it work by ignoring institutional knowledge.
He hires straight out of college so the students don’t learn what doesn’t work from institutional knowledge.
The key flaw in his thinking is social media is new. There haven’t been the advances neccisary to change fundamentally how we engage with it. The “ignore institutional knowledge” card has been played multiple times in the last 6 years.
Institutional knowlege is upset by the world changing while an institution remains stagnant. Twitter might have some cruft as an early implementation, but the institution of social media is far from stagnant. A constant battle for eyeballs that selects for the behaviors that maximize engagement while retaining and growing the userbase. Without some backstop of change to draw upon, there is little for twitter to do to adapt.
Re:
musk did not make tesla… he bought in and kicked out the actual engineer founders with his paypal winnings which he also didn’t found.
Re: Re:
I apologize for being imprecise. is this better?
What effect does that change have on my actual point that Elon Musk doesn’t know what he’s doing and ignorance is not actually helpful?
Re: Re: Re:
It makes your point more factually correct. Elon can say he founded Tesla all he wants; you’re not required to sell his delusion to everyone else.
Re: Re: Re:2
Musk’s claim to have founded Tesla isn’t actually a delusion, it’s a lie worthy of Shiva Ayyadurai, the guy who didn’t invent email in the same year that the world’s first spam email was sent on ARPANET.
Re: Re: Re:3
Tell yourself a lie long enough that you end up believing it and it’s a delusion. See also: Donald Trump and his loyal dregs insisting that Trump won the 2020 election without ever being able to prove their assertions as fact.
Re: Re: Re:4
Ah, okay. I’d only ever heard of a delusion being a pathological state before. I didn’t realise it could be a way of life.
Re: Re: Re:5
Being a pathological liar is a way of life. Again, look at Donald Trump.
Re: Re: Re:2 TSLA v TESLA
The two-seat electric car that “Tesla” (formed in 2003) was building had lead-acid batteries (blocking any doors!) along the sides, and the company’s “owners” had no plans of producing more than a few units, one of their engineers attended worship here ~2005. I had built an electric limousine factory in 1994-95 with a lot of the same battery and structure design solutions, one a month to compete with Ford’s 3,000/year “livery” units…and I bought two complete motor+controller packages from Hughes-GM. “Tesla’s” advantage was that GM failed to renew it’s plethora of e-car patents past 2000. Musk put $30m into the company in 2004, and bought the five million square foot former GM–Toyota plant in 2010. I have an old business card on the desk here: TESLA INC. Wm. E. Sullivan / Pres. 818-789-696x . Common name with inventors, but nothing to do with building 100,000 cars a month.
P.S. Musk controlled PayPal from March to September, when Peter Thiel pushed him out on his honeymoon. So What
"Free Speech Maximalists"
It is disingenuous to describe Musk as having naive views on content moderation, and the fantasy that he will learn anything is ridiculous.
In almost every case, people who dub themselves “free speech maximalists” are only concerned with ensuring the amplification of speech they agree with, and have no problem suppressing messages they disagree with. What’s more, they see no contradiction in that behavior, and any accusation of hypocrisy slides right off them.
It could be good if it sinks Twitter
I think your last paragraph is the most realistic good outcome: Musk sinks Twitter and a better alternative takes the userbase. Unlikely, though; even if he torpedoes it, people will probably jump to even worse but established platforms like Instagram, rather than the fediverse.
Re:
From what I’m hearing on the Fediverse, there’s already been an influx of users to some of the major instances (especially mastodon.social) in the wake of this news. I don’t expect it to last beyond today (these influxes rarely do), and I don’t expect it to change the general state of the Fediverse. But it’s nice to know it’s a viable(-ish) option, at least.
The only good thing Musk could do is cause the downfall of Twitter.
I wish he could buy Facebook/Meta for the same reason.
It’ll be interesting to see him discover the cost of ignoring the paradox of tolerance.
Re:
Ah yes, the good old, completely misinterpreted, fallacy of the PoT… The “argument” which necessitates it’s own censorship.
Re: Re:
There’s no misinterpretation. If you tolerate the intolerant, you become intolerant yourself. If Twitter allows the most intolerant on the platform, others will leave.
This has happened already on other platforms. Feel free to provide evidence to the contrary.
Re: Re: Re:
Evidence to the…
Facebook.
If its scale and complexity are so large that it is impossible to moderate successfully… maybe they shouldn’t be.
Too big to succeed is too big to exist.
Re:
When there is more than one person in any grouping, there will be disagreement about group standards, or moderation.
Re: Re:
That’s what the brain implants are for.
Re:
“If its scale and complexity are so large that it is impossible to moderate successfully… maybe they shouldn’t be.”
I’ve seen pubs that are impossible to effectively moderate when there’s 6 people in there without kicking someone out. So, how small do you want there sites to be?
If I finally can DL my data and delete the account I’ll believe things changed.
Re:
Did you look under privacy settings?
Re: Re:
That in which I have been softbanned from the platform for over a year, I can not log in unless I give them what I do not have.
Even the links for deactivating and deleting accounts in their website aren’t working.
I’ve made several requests for my data and the account to be deleted, but there are no replies.
There is no governmental ID that says That Anonymous Coward and hell will freeze over long before I hand my identity to the assholes at Twitter so that option fails. I guess the concept of pseudonyms isn’t something they understand… along with words like rules, fair, policy, the.
Obstensively I was locked out for “covid misinformation”, they demanded a cell phone number & I serve a 13 hour timeout.
As I have told them every other time they locked my account, I do not have a cellphone and even if I did I wouldn’t give them the number.
That was over a year ago.
I guess when the former CEO is a thin-skinned little bitch one should expect his staff to behave just as poorly.
No one can or will explain how what I said was covid misinformation, much like the logic puzzle they couldn’t sort out when the gay guy called himself faggot is it promoting hatred towards others or did you pull the trigger because of my avatar you mindless drone.
I mean they claim that users access to their data is a big important thing, pity they don’t mean it.
Only been asking for it for a year, its not like my appeals are ignored or sent to dev/null because that would be wrong, like punishing a user for getting on someones bad side.
You’d think they would have been excited when I told them they won, I won’t ever tweet again, I just want my data and to delete the account… instead I can’t have my data, I get no response, I am unable to deactivate or delete MY account until I provide them with a cell phone number, pray that the crap shoot text that number a code works, then delete the offending tweet (which one can find here on Techdirt), serve 13 hours of only being able to talk to the few people who haven’t unfollowed me after I haven’t tweeted in a year, hit the button to complie my data, they expect that Twitter will do what they are supposed to to and let me get my data then delete my account because I do not trust the platform any more.
People want me to still think I wasn’t targeted/singled out…I’m pretty sure at this point no one can try to make that claim without laughing.
Re: Re: Re: To play Devil's advocate:
“…they couldn’t sort out when the gay guy called himself faggot is it promoting hatred towards others…”
It’s possible that the thinking is if they let a gay man get away with calling himself a ‘fag’ or ‘faggot’, and then enough other members of the Gay community follow suit, others not on that community may think it’s acceptable term to use even about gay guys who hate it (rather like the term ‘crip’ some members of the Disability community use about themselves).
Re: Re: Re:2
Had that tweet not been over a year old you might have a point.
But then the search function on twitter shows all sorts of people using that word and other bad words (the n word was my example) who weren’t dinged.
The tweet was reported by a group of people who were mad at someone I knew and they thought I was one of his alternative accounts, there were not very bright.
The fact I flat out asked Twitter to explain how a gay man calling himself faggot was “promoting hatred towards others” & they had no response other than to say my timeout would stay in place.
Totally had NOTHING to do with my avatar, the fact I’d been on the site for years, my bio pointed out I was the gay one, I talked about being gay, but someone got their panties in a bunch… and it wasn’t even anyone who was offended.
I can find a ton of tweets in my TL that should have gotten me timed out, but never a single one of those tweets ever raised an eyebrow. But a mass reporting, after Twitter said mass reporting wouldn’t be acceptable if none of them were in the conversation (and unless they could time travel they weren’t), but hey those rules only apply to OTHER people I guess.
There is not rule that says you can’t say fag, faggot, pillowmuncher, or a bunch of other words… thats why they claimed I was promoting hatred towards others… by using a word to describe myself. I asked myself if I offended myself, I was not. Twitter decided to protect my from myself promoting self hatred of myself in a year old comment.
I had other people calling me faggot (That’s Mr. Faggot to you) I had people claiming I was a pedophile (because all the gays are) There sure were a lot of people promoting hatred towards others… who managed to keep doing it over and over. I call myself faggot in a one off joke response to someone & I murdered the Lindberg Baby.
Their shit is flawed deeply, enforcement is a crap shoot, the rules change based on who is interpreting them at any given moment, they can’t even manage to invent reasonable explanations for what they have done.
Moderation at Scale is impossible, it gets even worse when the rules framework is malleable, when appeals are actively ignored, when they can’t even explain how or why it happened beyond oopsie… they aren’t even trying anymore.
I haven’t read all the comments, because frankly they’re too spaced out for me to scroll through 40-50 pages of them. I just wanted to say…
My prediction is that he’ll buy Twitter, force a bunch of changes on the company/service and give it a redesign that will prove very unpopular with users. He won’t listen to critics, will make more unpopular changes, usage will decline, and something else will take up the slack. Then, a few years down the road, it will be announced that Twitter is either shutting down, or is being sold to someone else. It’s the way these things typically go, once a company is sold to someone else.
I don’t use Twitter myself, so whether it lives or dies doesn’t really affect me directly. However in the short term, I fear that one of the things he will do is give trump and MTG back their accounts so that they can once again build up their base of unhinged cult members while spewing hatred and lies. You know, the stuff that got them banned in the first place.
News update:
It’s no longer looking ‘almost certain’ that Elon Musk will own Twitter. He closed the deal yesterday. Now to watch him kick out those who do a good job running it before driving it, like a Tesla, into the ground.
Elon Musk and Twitter
There is no scenario that I can envision where the control of Twitter (or any similar product) by an emotionally infantile billionaire could be construed as a good thing.
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I dunno, I think watching them trying to twist and turn their way out of “We’re a free speech platform… but that account that tracks his jet has to be banned because he said so” will be entertaining.
There’s still lots of good content on tumblr, it is not dead, it’s still a good medium for artists to post content. Elon says he wants to ban spam and bots from twitter. Twitter is a vital medium for people to post news opinions , it’s news by business, government and by minority groups and can be easily used on mobile devices. The problem is the best programmers might decide to leave now that’s its run by someone whose behavior is random and who uses twitter as a pr service for his business. Twitter is important in that avaidable in many country’s where other social media are blocked and its used as a public discussion forum by journalists and minority groups
This goes back to early network communication. Companies like CIS and AOL made the no-go very clear and very public. With very little change over many many years until a megacorporate player came along, bought them out, and changed things to the detriment of free speech.
The big thing here for apolitical free speech advocates is Musk is opposed to deletionism (the only true form of censorship, public or privately done).
He has an opportunity here. Looking at early pioneers.
He could take the CIS route. Currently used by Facebook. Hiding, flagging, and blocking one click access, requiring you to actively open the content.
OR
He could take the AOL route.
Day-one every account with a default-on filter. Some easy flip switches on what to show and not show.
And a massive deeply differentiated custom filtering option. (And, a must for any free speech advocate: “disable all filters” option).
Deletion need not be the default. It should be the last resort only used when legally required.
On that alone I hope that this works out and he sticks to his ideas. Because if so it could take twitter from the destructive protectionist platform of today and turn it into the modern glory beacon of free speech.
One where all can speak but none must be heard.
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“Because if so it could take twitter from the destructive protectionist platform of today and turn it into the modern glory beacon of free speech.
One where all can speak but none must be heard.”
Your regular delusions are well noted, but none of them really take into account the vast differences in size and audience types that have accrued in the past 30 years.
One person’s “beacon of free speech” is another person’s “cesspit of bullying assholes”, and you can’t force them to stay if they’re rather go somewhere more effectively moderated. Despite regular claims from some quarters, people still have full freedom to do that.
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“Delusions”
Uh, no. Just more historical in reference.
Q: does twitter currently delete as moderation.
A: yes
Q: is there other forms of effective moderation
A: yes
With many years in exactly this field, paid and voluntary, I know multiple methods work.
Differences in size? Maybe. Maybe not.
Granted AOL topped at around 25 million users. And CompuServe desktop topped at a paltry 3million.
However,
CIS had for some time over 100 million pass-through users. At the time I was a principal employee in 94-96 those numbers were accurate as a whole. You forget how CIS worked. Moderation wasn’t limited to on site alone! CIS was a major on-ramp provider. Formulating a method to both moderate display (previously mentioned hiding) of Usenet threads and other off-site content. As well as hosting and moderating its own.
Access to a good portion of CIS services, eg Usenet, repositories, etc, we’re not bound solely to direct membership.
All in a method of filtering, hiding, and walling before deletion. Very little was ever destroyed unless it was outright illegal.
Such a method worked when there were a few hundred business users right through many millions, hundreds of across various networks, and stuck with the platform working well. Up until yahoo cut off the last of the service’s messaging and board options in 2020.
And here is where my base forms my view. Sandboxed retention (eg flag, collapse, and warn) is the most free method that minimises (eliminates unless intentionally sought) damage to others.
I’m not arguing against automation of such moderation. But preservation and possibility of reviewing false positives easily.
It protects the masses without stepping on any actual voice. In any way.
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OK.
Twitter currently has around 300 million active users. Facebook has 2.8 billion (monthly, 1.9 billion daily). TikTok 500 million. Social media as a whole is estimated to have 4.48 billion worldwide.
Even without acknowledging the generally different type of users, what they use the services for, etc., for which there may be no direct comparison, that’s a huge difference.
Some lessons learned before may be applicable if they haven’t already been used, but many of them won’t be. Not because someone isn’t working hard enough, but because the scale and usages simply no longer matches the old paradigm.
I see this sort of thing a lot – for example CTOs still wedded to the idea that you have to own your own bare metal and datacentres to be able to work effectively, but while there is a trade-off when moving to other solutions, you can’t get the same benefits of quick changes, low overheads and even disaster recovery by sticking to what worked 2 decades ago.
“It protects the masses without stepping on any actual voice. In any way.”
Apart from the people who used to be protected, who are now being negatively impacted by the shifting of “rights” away from them and toward their abusers, in one example.
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I believe that generally proves my point. 2.8 billion and using a form of the “CIS method”.
Where twitter has a fraction of the users and uses a more destructive “prodigy method”.
The CIS method used at Facebook generally works. I’m not up to doing a in-depth review of the company but Facebook is comparatively lenient vs twitter when it comes to censoring in its moderation. Opting to preserve over delete. In a method that doesn’t hurt the general and doesn’t destroy the minority.
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Except there is a way for them to exist in their own bubble, out of view of the general public, without deletion. Where they can Parler and gab their way to a self collapsing echo bubble of minimal importance.
When they can not visually fight with the outside they will eventually turn on each other or go somewhere where they can fight more openly.
Personally I have always supported the “sandbox of filth” section. Unmoderated for any legal content. Enter if you dare.
Nobody forced you to go look. If you find you’re hurt inside it’s your own damn fault.
At some sites that have one, I’ve taken to moving messages and threads to the sandbox in their own fun sections.
Here be trolls. Feed at own risk.
Here be spam, buy at your own risk
Here be self centred sacks. Engage at your own risk
At one site we developed a worst rule breaker trophy. They helped us fortify the security and modify automation tools.
As long as it’s legal: off to the corner litter box you go. Where only the crazed, deranged, and brave venture into after verification of will to enter and certifying they are of legal age. And if it’s illegal, it will be reported.
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I heard from a reliable source that Lostinlodos likes little kids. Maybe someone should do something about that.
Hey, I’m just posting what I heard…
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Sick troll.
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Rekrul Eh?
Had to do some looking. Find someone claiming you raped a 72yr man when he beat you in poker. Wow.
You can post anything you want. But I found it on google.
Don’t need no stinkin link. I says so.
Off to the litter box you go…
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Which, sadly, does not work today.
Modern “trolls” will not stand down or get filtered into irrelevance. There’s zero social penalty for them to not pretend to be civil. Hell, we’ve got Koby here who pretends to be civil and still supports white supremacy, pedophiles and terrorists of all stripes.
You’re not dealing with script kiddies and bored assholes looking for a cheap thrill. That was before 2016, and even then, I’d point you to 4chan, where Stormfront took over one of the boards.
These ideologically-driven keyboard warriors, at best, will not give up. At worst, they WANT to feed their martyrdom fetish and brag about how they’ve been “oppressed” to their ideological peers.
Social media and, hilariously enough, the First Amendment AND Section 230 accelerated the growth of these ideological keyboard warriors.
Filtering does not work on those who engage in bad faith. All it does is feed them more, at least until they are either gone or worse.
Oh, and stricter speech laws in Europe did not stop the Nazis from returning. There’s always a rogue nation that’s more than happy to fund that sort of nonsense.
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“Except there is a way for them to exist in their own bubble, out of view of the general public,”
It’s called moderation. The fact that you want the burden of moderation to be shifted away from the service provider and on to the individual does not mean that it’s a smaller burdern. For many, it’s far greater.
“At some sites that have one, I’ve taken to moving messages and threads to the sandbox in their own fun sections.”
OK. How does that translate to sites like social media where all messages are by default public?
That seems to be the piece of the puzzle you’re missing. A Twitter user can by default be contacted by anyone, and by default contact anyone. How many of those people need to be abused before the protections kick in? A person could restrict their account, but that reduces the value of the service greatly and is not something they currently need to do.
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Easy, break the rules enough, get sent to the sand box, the litter box, etc. you posts are only visible after clicking through warnings and your only outside connection is to people who search for you and follow you, friend, link, whatever.
That’s why i sandbox box users. They still exist.
But out of everyone’s way
Baddies can’t feature in main page. They don’t get promoted. They don’t get suggested. The only way to interact or follow them is to search them out explicitly and choose interaction.
Open sourcing the algorithm
I’m sure open sourcing the Twitter algorithm is no harder than open sourcing the Tesla full self driving algorithm would be…
(And as I’m sure some will not understand the joke, or even that it is a joke, FSD is AI-based and it is literally impossible to open source and AI algorithm in a human comprehensible fashion).
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I think you mean machine learning, which is more specific than AI. And it depends what you mean by “the algorithm.” There’s the code that enables the machine learning, which is no problem to open source. And if I understand it right (I’ve never done ML programming) that algorithm doesn’t change, but it accumulates data as it learns, and at some point the interaction between the data and the algorithm will not be comprehensible by a human. If someone knows more about it than I please chime in because I couldn’t find much technical detail without going down to the level of a training course or research paper.
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Lmao. See! This is what happens when someone with some knowledge (nasch) comments against someone who read a text message from some dumb idiot.
Your absolutely correct and just destroyed the AC.
Not only that but there’s no mandate on how the algorithm data is stored. Who says it’s MC?
Many AI-based ML systems store expansion via database. SQL is popular but also RDBMS. Those are very much human readable (if you learn database dialect).
Hell, a raw dump is commonly no harder to read than any mark-up language. Though a data export is preferred.
So what can be open sourced?
The code for the MLAI software.
The code for the storage backend
The “learned” words and phrases.
The rule adjustments the code makes
Seriously. People who say this can’t be done fall into two camps, layers and ignorance.