Appeals Court Reminds Law Enforcement That ‘No-Fly’ Doesn’t Mean ‘No Drive’
from the curb-your-enthusiasm,-terror-warriors dept
The “no-fly” list has many problems. Pretty much any fed can “nominate” someone for the list. Pretty much everyone on the list has almost zero chance of getting off it other than by filing a lawsuit. And even though the government has been forced by court decisions to offer a venue for challenges, the federal government is still under no obligation to tell people why they’ve been placed on the list, much less promise to never put them back on it again.
When people have been removed (almost exclusively following lawsuits), they’re simply told they’ve been removed. The only way to find out if they’ve been reinstated is to buy a ticket to ride only to have it denied after they’ve already spent their money and arrived at the airport.
Then there’s the cross-pollination of federal law enforcement databases, which turns people on the “no fly” list into suspected terrorists, even if there’s nothing in the database that supports this implication or any cop’s corresponding inference.
As unjust as this all is, at least there are some limits. Well, maybe one. And maybe one that only applies to this specific incident. But, there’s at least one limit and it’s spelled out by this decision [PDF] handed down by the Eleventh Circuit Appeals Court. And that limitation is this: you can’t stop someone from driving just because they’re not allowed to board a plane. (h/t FourthAmendment.com)
Here’s how this all went down in Georgia, leading to this federal lawsuit:
Georgia State Police officers stopped Amir Meshal, a professional truck driver, for a minor traffic infraction. During the stop, the officers received notice that Meshal was on the FBI’s No Fly List. Despite clear language on the notice instructing the officers not to detain Meshal based on his presence on the list, they handcuffed him and placed him in the back of a patrol car while they sought and waited for guidance from the FBI. While they waited, the officers searched the inside of Meshal’s truck and questioned him about his religion and his international travel. After determining that his truck was free of contraband and receiving the all-clear from the FBI, the officers released Meshal with a warning citation for the original infraction. He was detained for 91 minutes in total.
First, they ignored direct instructions telling the officers not to detain the driver. Then they kept him detained for 91 minutes which, if nothing else, definitely violates the Supreme Court’s Rodriguez decision — the one that says officers cannot prolong traffic stops without the reasonable suspicion to do so.
The State Police officers didn’t have any of that. All they had was a “no fly” hit that came coupled with instructions stating that his mere presence on this list did not justify further detention. And none of that justified the warrantless search of his truck.
And, according to the allegations in the lawsuit, the only reason Meshal was on the FBI’s “no fly” list was because he had refused to become an FBI snitch.
When [Officer] Janufka returned to the patrol car to tell Meshal that “narcotics- and explosives detecting canine teams were on their way,” Meshal asked “if he was being detained because he is on a watchlist.” Janufka responded, “Exactly. So, you know what’s going on?” Meshal then “explained that he had been detained in 2007 in Somalia by Kenyan authorities working with
federal law enforcement agencies, and that he ended up on the No Fly List after refusing the FBI’s requests to work as an informant.” Janufka responded, “This is over my head. I’m getting instructions on what to do.”
Not exactly an improbable allegation! The FBI has been known to do this. A lot. Even if it feels it can’t justify a “no fly” list nomination, agents feel more than comfortable threatening people with deportation or further disruption of their travel plans. That a state officer would feel comfortable detaining someone in contravention of direct instructions otherwise makes it clear anyone the government merely wants to pretend is a terrorist is justification enough for any further violation of their rights.
At the district court level, all involved officers (Janufka, Oglesby, and Wright) were denied qualified immunity for this prolonged, suspicionless detention of Meshal, as well as for the completely unjustified search of his vehicle. They appealed. And the 11th Circuit says, too bad. Maybe don’t violate rights if you don’t like being sued.
The court first cites the Rodriguez decision in response to the officers’ arguments that the stop was not “unreasonably” prolonged. It also addresses their claim that detaining Meshal was necessary, even though the original stop was (allegedly) for him following another driver too closely.
Neither of these arguments persuades us. First, the officers’ call to the FBI was not an ordinary inquiry incident to the traffic stop for following another vehicle too closely and was not plausibly related to the mission of that stop. Second, the officers lacked an independent basis to extend the traffic stop because they cannot point to specific and articulable facts in the allegations before us that provide anything more than an inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or hunch that Meshal was involved in some kind of terrorist activity.
As for the claim that it was the FBI’s fault the detention took 90 minutes due to officers waiting for a return call from the agency (after ignoring the agency’s direct instructions not to detain the driver), the court is even less sympathetic. An extended stop can’t be justified just because officers chose to involve an outside agency.
The officers maintain that the length of the detention was dictated by the timing of the FBI’s response and therefore justified. But what if the FBI had taken two hours to respond? Or six hours? Or a whole day? It cannot be that any length of detention was permissible until the officers received an all-clear from the FBI. Our conclusion that the 91-minute traffic stop went beyond the permissible scope abs nt reasonable suspicion of illegal activity is bolstered by Meshal’s allegation that the NCIC notice directed the officers not to detain him based on the No Fly List and to call after the traffic stop was over.
Driving the point home, the Appeals Court says all of this is stuff officers should know — so clearly established they can’t plausibly claim they weren’t “on notice” that detaining someone on a no fly list (much less searching his truck) for driving isn’t acceptable under the US Constitution.
Here, based on the facts as alleged in the complaint, a reasonable police officer could not have believed that Meshal’s long-ago arrest for driving with a suspended license, his delivery trip to Miami, and his mere presence on the No Fly List were sufficient to detain him for more than an hour and a half. This is especially true given the alleged numerous, explicit warnings in the same NCIC notice that flagged Meshal’s no-fly status. As the district court aptly put it, “[t]he Complaint plausibly allege[d] that the officers merely equated Meshal’s presence on the list to ambiguous criminal activity, which they believed they were at liberty to investigate without regard for Meshal’s constitutionally protected rights.” That belief was not only wrong—it was unreasonable.
Moreover, binding precedent featuring materially similar facts clearly established that the officers violated Meshal’s Fourth Amendment rights by extending the stop, without reasonable suspicion of other criminal activity, beyond the time it took for them to conduct tasks incident to the stop.
The lawsuit will continue. And rights that were always present have been reaffirmed, something that’s going to help plenty of people who have been placed on the FBI’s “no fly” list (as this lawsuit alleges) for purely vindictive reasons. I would expect the state of Georgia to settle soon, rather than just wait around for more precedent curbing officer misconduct to be solidified.
Filed Under: 11th circuit, 11th circuit appeals court, 4th amendment, amir meshal, georgia, georgia dps, no fly list, pretextual stop, terrorist watchlist


Comments on “Appeals Court Reminds Law Enforcement That ‘No-Fly’ Doesn’t Mean ‘No Drive’”
Winning the war on terror, one innocent person’s rights at a time.
11th Circuit says violation of Rodriguez won’t fly.
Driving While Arab
It is shocking that police aren’t allowed to just make up reasons to detain people. What is this country coming to?
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Son, back in my day, the cops didn’t have to find a rationale to detain someone.
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What is her husband doing about it
He should be breaking into their computer and removing her from.the no fly list
If I were her husband I would be dpijg just that.
He husband needs to be doing that
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Look out, folks, we got a bona fide totally-for-real Golgo 13–level badass over here~! He’s gonna getcha from behind seven proxies and backhack all your firewalls and consequences will never be the same~!
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He’d be better off just slowly putting “Everyone” on the no fly list. Not only is this far to easy to do. But its so much more fun when Senators cant fly home, CEOs get denyed boarding, and other elites actully notice how broken the list is.
Make sure you use a slow method, a process that involves paper files that people wont be able to later find, and drip feed first super common names before going to a few choice people at a time. That way they wont be able to just restore a backup, but instead infect all the other down stream systems for years.
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CEOs and the like who have money can hire hackers via the dark web to get their names removed from the list
Money talks
Bs walks
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You better get to walking, then.
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CEOs and the like rich enough for that can afford one Mercedes that go 220 miles an hour and cops would never catch him
Just some kind of jammer to jam their radios so backup cannot be called
As long as you are not in Texas the jamming would not be a criminal offense
The instrument of crime statute in Texas makes it a felony offense in Texas but not in.the other 49 states
Just like the chap who jammed 315 MHz in Texas to keep remote control spoke strips from deploying. When they got him after he crashed they charged him under the instrument of crime law in Texas.
There is no other law he could have been charged under for jamming the remote control to their spike strips
That is a law unique to Texas.
In any of the other 49 states that jamming wouid not, by itself, would be a crime
That is why I believe that abortion clinics in California that jam gps and/or cellular data could be prosecuted in Texas under the instrument of crime law if Texas decides to make it illegal to cross state lines for an.abortiom
Clinics are breaking no laws in California doing that but could find themselves before prosecuted in Texas
California’s state Constitution guarantees the right to an abortion so jamming for that purpose is fully legal under California law.
Just like some grocery stores are jamming to prevent these new skmetd that use cellular data networks from working.
I know because my cell services goes out when I am in the store but comes back when I leave
That grocery store has the legal right to protect their property so they have the legal right to jam under California law
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Ahhhhhh – they also can afford their own airplane
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The problem is that no fly list will prevent you from traveling to schfnheb countries, even with your own place
The new schfnhen visa application will query all watchlists
This is why rich people should have the no fly list hacked and theyr nahes removed so they can go in to Europe especially fur business
Newer cryptocurrencies have been designed to be untraceable
I only wish I had known about Shiba Inu years ago. Just $1000 back then would make me very rich right now.
Shiba Inu will, in a few years mint the first trillionaures and quadrillionaurwa depensybf on how much much and when they investrd
When hiba Inu dues make the first quadrillionaire the taxes will lhe feds to pay off the national debt and money to spare
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It really is funny how the cryptocurrency shills constantly flip flop between the two extremes of “crypto is totally safer than the banks because the blockchain doesn’t lie” and “crypto is totally safer than the banks because crypto can never be traced”.
The moment you find a way to convert that crypto into spendable fiat, that leaves a trail to follow. Not just for law enforcement, but especially for the crypto folk who need to know that you’re playing by the rules of the blockchain or whatever the hell code cryptobros these days think is law. And you WILL need to do that conversion, otherwise you’ll just be like the guy who stole billions’ worth of crypto from the Silk Road. The money would just sit there uselessly otherwise.
You know, just because enough idiots say that your funny money is worth that much, doesn’t mean the rest of us have to agree. In the same way that copyright enforcers insist that every stolen song is worth $150k each, but the amount of pirated songs and games and content isn’t actually worth several hundred times the national GDP.
You could hold, theoretically, quadrillions’ worth of crypto, but someone still has to pay you the equivalent in money in an exchange. Where the hell are you going to find a buyer? The feds aren’t going to pay off anything. You can’t pay off national debt with funny money.
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You can’t outrun a Motorola.
You can’t out drive an A-Star.
And RF jamming is ALWAYS illegal.
Nobody is paying hackers to remove their names from the no fly list.
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If radios are jammed and backup cannot be called that pursuing police car is sol
And jammming is only a crime in Texas under their instrument of crime statues
None the other 49 states have that
Remember apbs and arrest warrants are on computers and can be hacked
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Isn’t it interesting that even top tier hackers regularly end up jail?
So let me tell you something shit for brains, contrary to your fantasies, in real life there are multiple computer systems replicating the data, there are backups and there are (and this will blow your brain) printed case files. And there are also cops, investigators and detectives who actually remember shit.
Every time you shit out your nonsense it’s like hearing someone explaining that the easiest way to hide illegal logging is to cut down the forest.
Re: Re: Re:6 You're totally real life American Badass!
I remember when I was 14 too bro!
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Electronic means are going to be the only way to evade arrest
Jamming police radios or breaking into computers to erase warrants apbs are going to the only means
If Trump gets in he will the mandatory federal penalties fur assaulting an LEO so siuhg things like breaking into computers will be the only way to evade arrest. So violence in resisting arrest will soon no longer be an option
Right now the ai one one gamimg site pedicts a trump win with ecsvtkyy 270
So people need to be prepared for a lot of stuff
Abortion clinics in California will need to step GPS and/or cellular data jamming so places like Texas cannot find out if women from Texas gets ab abortion
Any of Texas pitsour a earrant under their “instrument of crime law” breI into law enforcement computer networks an erase it, using Tor and VPN both so it cannot be traced.
Abortion clinic in California need to be preparwd to do this avoid arrest and extradirion to Texas
If you have the money, buy a home In.kexico.abd park.a computer there to avoid the coming Internet censorship
An encrypted connection to a home computer in Mexico would work and they will never know what you are up.to
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With remote controlled spike strips which some departments use, you can use a jammer to prevent the remote control from deploying the spikes.
As long as you are not in Texas, you are not committing any jamming the 315 Mhz frequencies that such remote contols use
Jamming those frequencies is only a crime in Texas under the “instrument of crime” statutes in state state.
It is not a crime in any of the other 49 states to jam such remote controls to prevent the spikes from deploying.
It is just like with abortion in clincs in California jamming GPS and/or cellular data so that states that ban women from travelling outside the state for abortion cannot get location data.
That is no law in California that makes such jamming illegal, but I do see the possbility of clincs being prosecuted in Texas under the instrument of crime statutes.
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I trust the Feds to keep me safe and I support hampering dangerous people from traveling freely.
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Anti-American trash.
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“I trust the Feds to keep me safe and I support hampering dangerous people from traveling freely.”
I spell my name Danger.
btw, I’m not traveling – I am driving.
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That’s nice. Neither one of those was happening here though, so IDK why you mention it?
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Shut up, SOVCIT faggot.
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So you support people like you being prohibited from traveling, edgelord? Because you sure are a danger to human rights.
Its one of those things I point out sometimes…
One can have a great idea, then humans happen and fsck it all up.
No Fly List!
We expected known terrorists, maybe suspected terrorists to be on the list…
Then people kept expanding the things that could put you on the list, decided that everyone with that name should be blocked because we can’t take the time & risk that a 5yr old with the same name could actually be a terrorist. Better safe than sorry!!
No fly list membership!?
Well that totes means that there is serious evidence they are a “bad person” ™ and not just some pissed off feds ex’s new BF.
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The trouble with terrorists is that there are very few of them. Any measure intended to catch them is bound to turn up many false positives.
The officials who should catch the terrorists are rewarded for catching them, but are rarely penalized for harming innocents.
Under those conditions, the fcskups are practically guaranteed.
Or you could just say that the No Fly List has always been a bad idea.
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‘The officials who should catch the terrorists are rewarded for catching them, but are rarely penalized for harming innocents.’
And they aren’t even looking for the real terrorists, they are spending their time radicalizing people with low IQ’s or other mental health issues into providing material support to terrorists, even if the target has to borrow the $20 from the CI to get the gift card to fund terrorism. (this actually happened).
'Look, it's simple: If they aren't on a plane they're completely harmless.'
Ah yes, the ‘We think this person is too dangerous to allow travel via an airplane, but not too dangerous to actually do anything about them like take them to court’-list, otherwise known as the ‘No-fly List’ to save time.
Nice of the judge not to buy the ‘we had no choice, we had to keep them detained while the FBI got back to us’ excuse, you could practically feel the exasperated disgust in their response to such a laughably terrible excuse, all the more so since the FBI already included a ‘do not detain this person, call us afterwards‘ note in the file that the cops ignored.
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There are plenty of people who would love to change the “no-fly list” into the “no fly, train, bus, cruise, or etcetera list”. Rail
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Really, the FBI should be forced to arrest everyone on the No Fly List (aka the NFL) on the same day, and let’s just see what shakes out.
The mere logistics should be astonishing and enlightening enough.
“Yes, your honour, but mister Meshal’s truck really looked like it was about to become airborne!”
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They even put Tulsi Gabbard on the Quiet Skies Watchlist which is similar to the no fly list. Her crime – speaking out against Kamala Harris
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It’s both sad and fascinating to observe all the bullshit going around due to gullible idiots repeating it ad nauseum.
Do you know what an ‘SSSS’ designation is? Apparently Tulsi Gabbard doesn’t either which is why she baselessly accused Harris and the Democrats for placing her on that list.
Did you know that anyone can be selected at random by the system? Or that the system can also flag people who often travel to unusual locations or if they travel through “high risk countries”. Guess what Tulsi Gabbard has done quite often?
It so funny seeing the idiots leap and caper so they can jump to the first conclusion that fits their extremely simple worldview without even thinking about how reasonable their conclusion actually is. Of course, if its someone the idiots support that has been accused of doing underhanded stuff they will debase themselves publicly to explain away that shit even when it is factually proven.
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If she was placed on that list because of speaking out against Harris then I’m sure all the other republicans who’ve done that are also on that list, right?
I mean it’s not like she’s the only one who’s been critical of Harris, so you should have countless data-points to use as evidence to support that claim, right?
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Seems there is more to this story than the media or rando internet sleuths have divulged.
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That is why I use Tor and VPN to say anything that might attract the attention of the Feds, so I cannot be traced.
Using the two of them TOGETHER makes you untraceable. Tor adds even more untraceability.
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Tulsi Gabbard is a Putin stooge.
If the government places someone on a no-fly list, and can’t provide a security related justification, the government should owe damages and attorney’s fees to people winning a challenge.
There should be a sanction for placing someone on a no-fly list for say, political reasons.
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The idea is good on it’s own but I’d add that attorneys fees to cover the plaintiff’s costs should apply even before they win or even if they lose, as if the government places someone on a no-fly list then they should be footing the bill to show their work if challenged.
This would have the added benefit of likely making them a lot less quick to add people to the list, as if it was known that anyone placed on it could challenge that designation without having to spend their own money to do so since the government agency in question would be the one footing the bill then unless they want to see a bunch of lawsuits eating into their budget they’d better be damn sure they can provide solid evidence of why someone is such a threat that they deserve to be on the list.