DSA Ruling: ExTwitter Must Pay Up For Shadowbanning; Trolls Rejoice
from the the-dsa-is-helping-the-trolls dept
In a stunning display of technocratic incompetence, the EU’s Digital Services Act (DSA) has effectively outlawed the very tool that online platforms have relied on for years to combat trolls: shadowbanning. Recent court decisions suggest that the DSA’s (possibly?) well-intentioned but misguided Article 17 has created a troll’s paradise, leaving websites in an impossible position when trying to deal with bad actors. I will note that the DSA’s authors were warned of this in advance by multiple experts, but they either didn’t care or didn’t listen.
But before we get into the details, we need to take a step back and remind people that the general understanding of shadowbanning changed dramatically five or six years ago. This change mostly happened because a bunch of Trumpists got angry that they weren’t getting enough free promotion and decided that was a form of shadowbanning. It’s not.
The original concept of “shadowbanning” was as a method of dealing with trolls who were only in it to get reactions from other users in forums. People realized that banning them wouldn’t work, since they’d just make new accounts and come back. Convincing everyone else not to respond wouldn’t work, because that runs against human nature.
The concept of shadowbanning goes back to some of the earliest parts of the internet. It was a way to deal with those trolls by making the troll think their efforts had reached the site, but no other user could actually see it. Just the troll. So the troll thinks they’ve posted… and just that no one is responding. Thus, they don’t get their troll dopamine hit and hopefully give up. The reality, though, is that none of the other users saw it at all.
However, the key bit here is that the “shadow” part of shadowbanning has to be about the user not knowing they were banned. Otherwise, it’s just a ban.
In 2018, Trumpist folks started complaining that they weren’t getting promoted high enough in search results or other algorithms. They misunderstood the nature of “downranking” nonsense in an algorithm to be something evil and awful, and (because why understand what things actually are?) declared that to be “shadowbanning.”
It’s now so widely used to mean that kind of visibility filtering/algorithmic adjustment that the term is now effectively meaningless.
Nonetheless, it’s beginning to look like the EU might not allow any kind of “shadowbanning.” A couple of months ago, we wrote about a Belgian court punishing Meta for allegedly “shadowbanning” a controversial extremist politician. In that case, the court found that Meta couldn’t “justify” the downranking of the politician and argued that the downranking was based on the politician’s political views, and profiling someone based on their political views apparently violates the GDPR.
However, TechCrunch recently reported on another, different case, this time in the Netherlands, in which a PhD student, Danny Mekic, took ExTwitter to court for having “visibility filtering” applied to his account without being told about it.
Now, again, some background here is important. Before taking over Twitter, Elon decried the evils of “shadowbanning” at the company. He insisted (incorrectly) that it went against free speech, democracy, and all things good and holy. Indeed, one of the big “Twitter Files” misleading reveals was that the company did what it called “visibility filtering” — which everyone in the Elon realm of alternative facts seemed to forget was something the company publicly announced and was covered in the media back in 2018.
Hilariously, at the same time Musk was pushing those very Twitter Files that (1) revealed that the company was using the thing it had publicly said it was going to use nearly five years earlier while (2) insisting this was a big, secret revelation of bad behavior… Elon was making use of those very tools to hide accounts he didn’t like, such as ElonJet.
Indeed, soon afterwards, Elon (without recognizing any of the irony at all) announced that this “visibility filtering” (what his friends called shadowbanning) would be a key part of moderation on Twitter.

So, the new Twitter policy was the old Twitter policy, which had been announced in 2018, and which Elon insisted was horrible and had to be “revealed” via a “Twitter Files” dump, and which he had to overpay to buy the company to stop… just to announce that it was now the official policy under his regime.
A few months later, the company announced that it would ramp up that shadowban… er… visibility filtering program, but it promised that it would be transparent about it and let you know:
Restricting the reach of Tweets, also known as visibility filtering, is one of our existing enforcement actions that allows us to move beyond the binary “leave up versus take down” approach to content moderation. However, like other social platforms, we have not historically been transparent when we’ve taken this action. Starting soon, we will add publicly visible labels to Tweets identified as potentially violating our policies letting you know we’ve limited their visibility.
And, indeed, every so often people get slapped with a “publicly visible label” that just seems to make them even angrier.
But, according to Mekic, he believed his account was visibility filtered without being notified. According to TechCrunch’s summary:
PhD student Danny Mekić took action after he discovered X had applied visibility restrictions to his account in October last year. The company applied restrictions after he had shared a news article about an area of law he was researching, related to the bloc’s proposal to scan citizens’ private messages for child sexual abuse material (CSAM). X did not notify it had shadowbanned his account — which is one of the issues the litigation focused on.
Mekić only noticed his account had been impacted with restrictions when third parties contacted him to say they could no longer see his replies or find his account in search suggestions.
For what it’s worth, the company claims it notified him multiple times.
It appears that he then went to the equivalent of a small claims court in the Netherlands to argue that not being told violated the DSA because the DSA’s Article 17 requires that a service provider give users “a statement of reasons” for “any restrictions of the visibility of specific items of information provided by the recipient of the service.”
For years, we’ve pointed out how ridiculous this is. It basically means that sites need to explain to trolls why they removed their content or made it harder to read.
But it could also mean that actual shadowbanning (taking action against a malicious actor that they don’t know about) appears to be effectively outlawed. The court ruling is in Dutch, but the court appears to have sided with Mekic, and basically said that if you shadowban someone, you need to tell them, in fairly great detail what happened and why. And telling them has a bunch of requirements, all of which would undermine shadowbanning. Apparently, even though Mekic was notified, the explanation apparently wasn’t clear enough for this court.
Which means there is no such thing as shadowbanning anymore.
It’s not shadowbanning if it’s not in the “shadow.” If you have to tell the shadowbanned about the shadowban, it’s no longer shadowbanning. It’s just a “hey, troll, come yell at me” notice.
From a translation of the ruling:
Contrary to Twitter’s argument, the subdistrict court judge considers that the restrictions imposed by it on [the applicant] fall under a restriction of visibility as referred to in Article 17, paragraph 1a, DSA. It has remained undisputed that the 64 million users of X in Europe were able to see [the applicant]’s messages in a reduced manner, which clearly constitutes a restriction within the meaning of that provision. The fact that not all 64 million users searched for [the applicant]’s account during that period does not alter this. The same applies to the fact that, as Twitter has noted, there was no restriction of the visibility of specific information provided by [the applicant], but a restriction of his entire account, this interpretation is not followed. After all, the greater, the reduced visibility of the entire account, entails the lesser, the reduced visibility of the specific information.
In the ruling itself, the story seems even worse because ExTwitter did, in fact, give the guy an explanation. But the judge says it wasn’t specific enough.
According to Twitter, it provided three messages to [the applicant] about the measure, on15 October 2023, 14 November 2023 and 12 January 2024, thereby meeting the requirements of Article 17 DSA. [The applicant] first contested that hereceived the message of 14 November 2023. Since Twitter has not provided any evidence that this message reached [the applicant] and has also not made any concrete offer of evidence, this message will be disregarded in the assessment. However, even if [the applicant] had received this message, it does not comply with Article 17 DSA, since this message is formulated far too generally and does not contain any specific information referred to in Article 17 DSA.
The other two messages do not comply with the provisions of Article 17 paragraph 3 DSA. The email message of 15 October 2023 does not contain any information as referred to in Article 17 DSA. [Applicant] cannot infer from this message that a measure has been taken and which measure has been taken (sub a), why a possible measure would have been taken and which facts and circumstances are involved (sub b). Nor is anything stated about the legal basis (see sub d). Finally, the information referred to in sub f is also missing. The mere reference to the Help Center in the email cannot be regarded as such a notification. This email therefore does not meet the requirements of Article 17 paragraph 3 DSA or paragraph 4. This information is not clear, easy to understand and in any case not such that [Applicant] can exercise any rights of recourse that may be due to him. The message from Twitter of 12 January 2024 is also not fully compliant. That message also does not contain any information as referred to under sub f. It does otherwise state that there was a temporary restriction, although the extent of that restriction is not stated. It also states that a few days later X lifted the temporary restriction on [applicant]’s account. Although a specific date is missing, [applicant] could at least infer from this that these restrictions no longer applied on 12 January 2024.
This is just a “small claims” dispute, so I’m guessing it has little to no precedential value. But combined with that other ruling in Belgium, and the text of Article 17 itself, this is going to create a freaking field day for trolls in the EU.
So… now that tool that has been used for decades, mainly to deal with trolls, is basically no longer possible. If you take an action in the EU against a troll, you have to tell them about it. This bit of the law was clearly written by people who have never, ever had to deal with trolls. Because trolls will absolutely love this feature. They can whine incessantly and threaten legal process if you don’t give them a clear statement (which they can argue with) regarding what you did to them and why.
I know that people (especially in the EU) complain that my coverage of the DSA is unfair. But when you get results like this, what else am I supposed to say about the DSA? Sections like Article 17 are designed to deal with a world where everyone is acting in good faith. And, in doing so, empowers the trolls and harms the ability of websites to deal with trolls.
Filed Under: content moderation, danny mekic, dsa, eu, netherlands, shadowbanning, transparency, trolls, visibility filtering
Companies: twitter, x


Comments on “DSA Ruling: ExTwitter Must Pay Up For Shadowbanning; Trolls Rejoice”
There are other ways to deal with trolls
Those of us who have been doing this for 40+ years have all kinds of techniques for strongly discouraging them or outright blocking them. And while the novices running social media companies may not be aware of those techniques, they’ve been published — so maaaaaybe they should do some homework.
Free clue: think about what makes a troll’s day. Think about what they live for. And then think about how to stop that from happening without doing anything to the troll’s account.
Re:
Yes, but the problem is not in the authorship of an article, it’s in the fact that trolls get their start by responding in a trollish fashion to an otherwise legitimate article, or to another person responding to such. If you remove the troll’s ability to respond, in any fashion, then you’ve messed with his/her account, haven’t you…
Moreover, how do you stop other people from calling out the responding troll, without making an even bigger mess of things?
As Mike has noted so often, those who think it’s easy have never done it in the first place.
Your next idea, if you please…..
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Re: Re:
“have never done it in the first place”?
To borrow a move line: “Them dudes, they picked the wrong venue to make a stand. I invented this shit.”
I realize that you, my dear ignorant newbie, don’t get it — but that wasn’t written for you. It was written for the people with higher intellects and aspirations than you, people who are actually willing to take the time to THINK about what I wrote and come to the (rather obvious) conclusion. Or, failing that, to do five minutes’ worth of research. (We did write these things down as we figured them out, all those decades ago, so that future versions of ourselves wouldn’t have to repeat the exercise.)
So: try again, and pay attention to the part in italics, and then reason out — it’s not hard — what that implies. Come on, it’s just a baby step. You can do it.
Re: Re: Re:
This kind of condescension mixed with vague references that assume everyone else is an idiot is completely useless because not only are you expecting people to read your mind, but you’re assuming your conclusion is flawless and won’t be thought of and dismissed by others. Just come out and say it directly or you’re just as bad as a troll.
Re: Re: Re:2
Yeah. That’s a Boomer Brain upset that its ancient wisdom no longer applies. You can see similar in their arguments with young people “Go walk in and ask for a job! That’s how we did it!” Even once you get them to accept that job applications are all online anymore, “You need to call if you haven’t heard from them! Otherwise they’ll think you’re not interested!” If you manage to explain to them that an automated system weeds out applicants before any human ever sees it, they’ll promptly forget the entire exchange, and go back to “Go walk in and ask for a job! That’s how we did it!”
So yeah. Literally all I’m seeing is an old person insisting the world still works the same way it did when they were a kid. Anybody who understands how things have changed in the past 50 years is just stupid.
Re: Re: Re:
Uphill both ways, no less.
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Former troll here.
In the past, most of us would, indeed, take the hint and run of to feed ourselves.
The upsurge in Republican-aligned provacateurs and idiotic wannabes are not interested in, ahem, “attention”.
They are interested in harassing and censorship via harassment.
Re: Re:
Re:
The problem here is that you’re conflating modern agitprop with classic attention-seeking troll behavior.
Leukemia, mesothelioma, and melanoma are all cancers. If you take a one-size-fits-all approach to treating them, it’s not going to work, and you’re going to get sued for malpractice. No matter how much you think you had cancer figured out half a century ago.
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You mean like instead of just nuking the account, instead depriving them of the attention they seek by reducing the spread of their shit? That kind of discouragement?
I feel like there is a word for that.
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Free clue: think about how shadowbanning actually works. Here, I’ll help you by quoting from the article:
Re:
OK. Then, I think about what happens when trolls get to spread disinformation unchecked.
It would be nice to just ignore or block them. But, then you notice that some people take them seriously, and use them to decide how they vote or respond to public health crises or act toward minority populations, and it gets a bit more worrying. Especially when you consider how different the audience is compared to 40+ years ago.
I’m not sure of the best response given that fact checking and so on can egg them on, but I know that ignoring them doesn’t help in the long term.
If the various services just ban the dirtbags, straight-up, and then give them a clear reason, does that not bypass the legalese game with notifying people that they’re shadowbanned?
I’ve never actually seen shadowbanning as useful because it’s pretty easy for someone to find out if they’re shadowbanned and then make an alternate account. It’s felt more like a twee epic-for-teh-win way to deal with people who in reality need to be shown the door. Show someone the door enough times and they’ll get the message.
But then if you ban people, I guess you can’t serve them advertising anymore or make money off of their data, so that’s why it’s been seen as so useful for the big corpos in particular.
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Very obviously you’ve not attended class here at TechDirt for an appreciable length of time. Do pay attention and try to keep up. Please.
Re: Re:
Techdirt has no reasonable way for people to get banned, which is what I meant when I said “shown the door” given the way its commenting system works. Other websites have accounts required for posting, and can ban people repeatedly, alt accounts and more, until they get the message.
Like I said, shadowbanning feels like a twee and too-clever-by-half solution to a larger problem. It reminds me of how, when the issue of cheating/hacking in online games is brought up, people say “Oh, what if we got everyone who’s been caught, and give them all their own servers where they can only play with each other!”. Like something they read in a gaming webcomic from 2003.
Put the work in and ban bad actors when they rear their ugly heads. Content moderation at scale is impossible to do well, I get that. Shadowbanning is a tool that bad actors know how to check for easily, it doesn’t have the same impact as dropping the banhammer, and therefore I don’t think having it in the modern content moderation arsenals makes sense.
Re: Re: Re:
Start smacking down /24s and /16s. Using bgpview.io, you start to see real quick which ASNs and network ranges are the consistent problems.
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Yes, it would. This doesn’t effect normal bans. (Although I’m not sure what happens under the DSA if they try to ban evade, if you have to do it again)
It’s mostly useful because some percentage don’t know to check, but yes it’s pretty limited because of that. It’s not a catch-all solution, just a speed bump in an arms race between moderation/those being moderated.
It doesn’t hurt to have, but it’s far from a be-all/end-all tool.
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But, that can backfire. 8chan/8kun was set up because some people thought that 4chan was too restrictive, and at minimum several mass shootings can be traced there. Then, there are people who think 8kun sold out…
Shadowbans can be useful in the sense that some people do stupid things for attention and lose interest if they lose it. You can’t turn away determined trolls necessarily, but those are a special sad type of person to begin with.
Couple this with the EU’s right to be forgotten, and Europe is basically slowly putting together an Online Trolls’ Bill of Rights
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Amazing. Yet more articles criticizing police departments in places like Michigan, but nothing yet written about Joe Biden’s corrupt and ineffective U.S. Secret Service that is failing so badly in its mission (resulting in the murder of a U.S. citizen) that the director resigned.
Weird how you hate cops…except when they’re directly answerable to a Democratic President.
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Re:
A dumbass Nazi shot at a dumbass Nazi and hit a different dumbass Nazi.
None of that is the fault of Democrats.
Blow it out your ass.
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If you have any evidence that it happened for other reasons than simple incompetence, suggest it as a story.
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The same corrupt and ineffective Secret Service, who, until JFK was shot by a MARINE WAR HERO TURNED COMMUNIST ASSASSIN, were off dealing with tax evaders and currency counterfeiters?
The same Secret Service that, uh…
*checks notes
Also failed to check Ronald Reagan’s would-be assassin if one wanted to push a narrative?
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Yeah, how dare an author living in the real world not write about hallucinations seen only by addicts!
Re: Re:
How many genders are there?
Lets get back to reality…
Re:
Still waiting on your own super awesome blog detailing all of your extremely stupid complaints bruh.
i wonder how true “(especially in the EU)” is. i live in the EU, and granted, a lot of EU residents do enjoy this kind of government overreach — but whenever the EU passes a directive like this, i also see plenty of US liberals falling over themselves to demand that the US government pass some similar kind of law.
i feel like this is a problem with liberals of any state, not necessarily something that’s particular to the EU.
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Re:
troll account #2 you really like using the word liberal
Re: Re:
this is the first time i’ve ever commented on Techdirt (although i’ve been reading for a while) and hopefully admins can verify that.
i use the word “liberal” because, in my experience, it’s mostly liberals who support laws like this. by “liberals” i mean people with generally left-liberal political opinions, who tend to vote for the US Democratic party or the equivalent left-liberal parties in various EU countries.
i didn’t mean to suggest all liberals have that opinion, of course.
in contrast, i would certainly be quite surprised to see a conservative supporting this kind of law, and i believe Techdirt has also commented on how surprising it was for e.g. Musk to support the DSA once upon a time, given his other political views.
i apologise if “liberal” is some sort of politically charged term on Techdirt — i honestly tend not to read the comments very much, so i probably missed that, but i didn’t mean the word in any sort of perjorative context; i assume many people who read (and agree with) Techdirt would call themselves “liberals”, and that’s the sense i used the word in.
i will refrain from commenting if i’m causing undue friction though.
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Re: Re: Re:
it’s alright it’s just that its a term that right wing troll accounts have been using on here but it seems you’re a real user to have a discussion so sorry for the confusion
Re: Re: Re:2
okay, no worries. i realise i probably phrased my original comment a bit poorly. by “a problem with liberals of any state”, i don’t mean that this is something “evil liberals are forcing upon us” or w/e, but rather that i think people who tend towards liberalism are inclined to support this sort of law, not because they’re evil, but because the law seems like it solves an actual problem, and the unfortunate consequences aren’t always obvious up front.
a similar sort of thing happens with various laws against “hate speech” or more generally against “Big Tech”, content moderation laws, KOSA, or whatever else (and ofc this has been discussed endless on Techdirt). it’s not that it’s an inherently liberal position to support that sort of thing (in fact, it seems rather anti-liberal to me) but that politicians are very good at framing it in those terms to attract support from that quarter.
so what i meant with my original comment was simply that i think US liberals are perhaps equally as susceptible to this as EU liberals are. although i guess Mike knows better than me who actually complains to him about this kind of thing 🙂
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Re: Re: Re:3
i get ya
Re: Re: Re:3
I read your initial post just fine. You don’t need to water things down for the illiterate.
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Re: Re: Re:4
are you really gonna go with the poor insults
Re: Re: Re:5
It’s not an insult. You’re steady jumping people because you don’t understand what you read. You are objectively, consistently illiterate.
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Re: Re: Re:6
that is a insult random ac with little to no influence on this argument you exist to throw insults cuase that’s all you do it was a misunderstanding and you get upset that’s amazing truly amazing and sad
Re: Re: Re:7
The problem is that you make yourself a nuisance and harass random people when you don’t understand things.
Re: Re: Re:2
Shocking news, boyo. “Liberal” actually has a meaning beyond rightoids using it as a trigger word.
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Re: Re: Re:
Don’t worry about it. “theroadhome” is our resident concern troll.
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Re: Re: Re:2
brought to you by a random ac that thinks am a concern troll it’s been proven am not
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Re: Re: Re:3
Every time we do this, you end up referring to yourself as a troll. Enough people have seen it happen that I don’t feel the need to prove it again.
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Re: Re: Re:4
said the random ac who needs to be a bitch when someone misunderstands something that’s you
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Re: Re: Re:5
Bruh at least own being a shit tier troll.
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Re: Re: Re:6
no becuase am not one and you’re the only one in here that’s saying am the troll even the poster of this whole thread never called me a troll
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Re: Re: Re:7
The thread’s poster likely mistook you for one of us. That’s why it was important to let them know you’re a troll.
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Re: Re: Re:7 Self awareness, it's not just for other people anymore
Bruh, I’m a different AC and a troll and we know our own.
Re:
Some (most?) liberals are disappointing this way. But conservatives also like this sort of government overreach – just not applied to them.
I mean. I don’t feel like it’s disagreeable? If you place reach restrictions on a user you simply have to actually say why.
Sure shadow banning as it was no longer exists but that doesn’t matter if they can’t just spam new accounts.
Re: 'You banned 'green', I said 'the color of a pine tree', totally different!'
Lemme throw together a hypothetical for you.
Platform: Here’s why you’ve been moderated.
Troll: I refuse to accept that I did that or that it’s a violation, but fine.
Troll: Rules lawyers their comment just enough so as to no longer be violating the rule according to the previous message, without changing the overall content or message.
Platform, upon seeing that it’s still a violation of the spirit of the rule, even if it might technically be in the clear because they didn’t specific that particular way of violating it: Moderates them again. ‘Here’s why you were moderated*.
Troll: You moderated my comment even though I did exactly what you told me to, either you stop moderating me or I’m suing!
The problem you’re missing, and the problem the courts and people who wrote the DSA are either ignorant of or ignoring is that you’re not dealing with people operating in good faith. If trolls have to be told exactly and specifically what they did to violate the rules then all they’re going to do is change just enough to wiggle around those very specific details without changing their behavior, which is why flexibility is so vital for effective moderation. If platforms have to give exact restrictions on content and/or behavior all that does is create huge gaping loopholes to be exploited.
Re: Re:
Does the DSA require that level of specificity? The wording of the DSA doesn’t seem that severe. As long as there’s enough wiggle room to say things like “you’re still violating the spirit of it, fuck off”, it seems like a non-issue.
(b) the facts and circumstances relied on in taking the decision, including, where relevant, information on whether the decision was taken pursuant to a notice submitted in accordance with Article 16 or based on voluntary own-initiative investigations and, where strictly necessary, the identity of the notifier
(e) where the decision is based on the alleged incompatibility of the information with the terms and conditions of the provider of hosting services, a reference to the contractual ground relied on and explanations as to why the information is considered to be incompatible with that ground;
That doesn’t seem incompatible with spirit of the rule type enforcement. If it does actually require that level of specificity, then yeah that’s a problem. Although, a fixable one.
Re: Re: Re:
You answered your own question.
where the decision is based on the alleged incompatibility of the information with the terms and conditions of the provider of hosting services, a reference to the contractual ground relied on and explanations as to why the information is considered to be incompatible with that ground;
By your own quote they do indeed have to specifically point to what grounds the platform is using to justify their moderation efforts, and what exactly the violation is.
Re: Re:
That is a pretty fair point. Along with the other comments I can see how this will end up simply with no bans, because it isn’t worth the work to do it.
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So, you have to explain to millions of users, daily, exactly why an action was taken, in a way that satisfies the user. (Do we need to point out that trolls are never satisfied?)
For non-trolls, yes, it would be helpful to get a less generic notification than “violates community guidelines” when they have literally no idea what to fix or not do in the future, but you have to balance that with giving trolls more openings to game the system. Beyond that, i disagree with Europe: A company or person doesn’t owe anyone anything wrt moderation choices. It would, however, be nice if some of them did better in moderation and explanation (including for copyright-involved matters), but that is something to be negotiated socially, not imposed by governments.
Re: Re:
So, you have to explain to millions of users, daily, exactly why an action was taken, in a way that satisfies the user. (Do we need to point out that trolls are never satisfied?)
Given we’re talking about bad-faith actors after this ruling it wouldn’t surprise me if trolls started creating accounts specifically to break the rules and demand explanations, just to gum up the works and try to force companies to reduce moderation efforts by making it too expensive to comply with this blindingly stupid law/ruling while moderating.
Re: Re: Re:
DSA Shadowban sealions
Re: Re: Re:
Why, certainly!
Re: Re: Re:
Worse. The poor moderators are going to be constantly arguing with Markov Chains.
The EU has effectively built a regime in which a single person can DOS any given European moderation team.
Unfortunately I don’t think it overcomes the ruling but I like the idea of isolating troll accounts so that they can only interact with bots like some sort of purgatory. That way they can farm all the engagement they want and the general userbase will remain unbothered
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I think there was a video game years ago that did something similar. Instead of banning cheating players, it just matched them together.
I could also just be imagining a “wouldn’t it be cool if” conversation as if it was a reality. Getting old is fun that way. At least I can still differentiate between Nancy Pelosi and Nikki Haley.
Re: Re:
I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of that being done by at least one major company/platform, so it likely did, and I can think of no more fitting response to toxic people than to force them to be surrounded only by people like them.
Re: Re: Re:
They can’t stand each other and eventually find other spaces to invade. See also: Koby, Matty
Well that’s one way to motivate companies to create region-specific versions of their platforms, or pull out of an area entirely if that’s no an option…
I feel like you could say the same thing about say, free speech protections.
If the cost of having good faith people informed is losing one tool against trolls… I mean, maybe that’s fine? It’s at least a trade off you can argue is worth it. Especially given the limited usefulness of shadowbanning (this doesn’t stop normal banning, and bypassing/verifying a shadowban isn’t that hard)
That said, the deeper problem here seems to be the court not liking the warning they did send, which would otherwise tie things up just fine.
And of course, it’s always possible to tweak the DSA to cover these cases.
You’re leaving out a few details here that make it sound stronger than it is. For one, you can still make another account. Two, the more serious trolls know now to check if they’re shadow banned (by logging out etc).
It’s still a useful tool because not all of them know how to do it, or bother, but it’s not magic, either.
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That’s cool. If it isn’t imposed by law.
Re: Re:
Not imposing it by law means you have to trust companies to handle it well. Just like there can be bad actors as posters, companies can be bad actors as well. That means there’s trade offs.
I think you can make a reasonable argument that say, Musk’s Twitter shouldn’t be able to shadowban the NYT with no oversight, or Facebook removing posts from black people talking about racism. Or just accidental/automated bannings (which seems to be the major motivator, from what I can tell) with people unable to get a response. And that those outweighs the burden to companies not doing that. It’s not immediately obvious a Wild-West is better.
Even if you’re strongly free-speech, being able to manipulate the conversation unseen has some pretty big potential downsides. Usually companies don’t misuse it, and smaller sites no one cares. But’s not a guarantee, so I can see why people would want to regulate it. Particularly in the EU which is more corporation skeptic. If you want to ensure companies actually do something besides maximize profits, regulation is one of the ways to do that.
How is de-ranking a source (troll) on social media any different than de-ranking on a search engine based on, for example, source IP address?
Does this set precedent that would also affect search engines?
Will all those SEO spam sites have to be equally ranked with real websites or else fines be issued?
Re:
That section of the DSA has a specific carveout for: Paragraph 1 shall not apply where the information is deceptive high-volume commercial content.
The DSA feels like the worst of all worlds in a way.
It drives platforms to remove speech but then creates a mechanism like this to tie their hands when it comes to moderation (now, I think Twitter was wrong in the Mekic case, I think they might be too aggressively taking action “against child porn”, but visibility restrictions are supposed to be a “middle ground” tool to avoid having to necessarily have to ban someone).
It feels like one faction has thrown in their pet ideas, then another has thrown in theirs, and it doesn’t fit into a coherent whole.
Re: 'If it were hard I wouldn't know the solution. I know the solution, therefore it's not hard.'
As tempting as it may be to attribute this mess to the right hand not having any idea what the left hand is doing I suspect that the explanation is a lot simpler in that they refused to listen to experts on how to accomplish their goals and/or why their methods are terrible ideas and figure that if anything goes wrong they can simply blame the platforms for not nerding hard enough.
Sections like Article 17 are designed to deal with a world where everyone is acting in good faith
Yes but websites delete comments and try blocking IP address’ and call the people calling them on it liars. Just because they disagree and cannot argue the point.
Isn’t that right Mike? You’ve been doing it for over 15 years. Anyone remember OOTB or AJ claiming this and Mike denying it and calling them liars?
While I love that Elmo is getting his (I have a sibling who’s trans), this ruling is nevertheless deeply problematic and I hope Musk wins on appeal.
Another great beat around the bush, as usual, you go to great lengths to obfuscate the fact that it’s primarily Jews who advocate censorship initiatives, and who single out “trolls” for persecution
This “designed to deal with a world where everyone is acting in good faith”
Whose “good” “faith” exactly? Jewish tech billionaires,and their enablers? Larry Fink and Black Rock?
And ” in doing so, empowers the trolls and harms the ability of websites to deal with trolls.”
What more are billionaires who pay PR firms to push their toxic PR? Simply a troll who can afford a nation or two to do his bidding.
Or nations that wage genocide? They are simply troll armies, as we see with Naziyahoo.
You take a Pharisees stance every time, and cannot hide your fondness for “shunning” the unorthodox viewpoint.