The Casual Cruelty Of Cops: Inventory Search Edition

from the I-do-because-I-couldn't-care-less dept

This case contains multitudes.

Let me explain. There’s an exception to the Fourth Amendment known as “inevitable discovery.” That theory says the evidence obtained by possibly unlawful means would still have been discovered by lawful means. That means the evidence is still usable.

The most common source of “inevitable discovery” is the “inventory search.” If a stopped vehicle needs to be towed, it will be inventoried. This is a good thing… theoretically. This prevents cops from being accused of stealing stuff from a towed vehicle.

Much like bike-sharing programs and Communism (why not both), it’s a great idea in theory. The reality is cops can come up with nearly any excuse to tow a vehicle they’ve stopped, even if the passenger offers to drive it home or the arrested person assures them someone is on the way to collect the car. Once it’s decided the vehicle must be towed (often for nebulous “public safety” reasons), officers are free to search the car. And since it was previously declared the car must be towed, any criminal evidence is usable in court because it would have been “inevitably discovered” during the course of a “routine” vehicle inventory.

And that’s what drew me to this case served up by FourthAmendment.com. Very rarely do courts call out cops for abusing vehicle inventories and/or the “inevitable discovery” exception to the Fourth Amendment. But it happened here.

That’s the first thing.

The second — and far more striking thing — is how these officers approached this matter. This was captured on their body cameras, indicating cops will still be bullies and thugs even if they’re at least partially aware they’re being recorded.

So, while I was first interested in what may have caused the court to dismiss these normally impenetrable defenses to rights violation accusations, I was soon drawn to the casual conversation of the officers, which showed they’re exactly who we think they are: violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish. It would be absurd if it wasn’t actually frightening.

But here’s how it all starts: a car parked in a parking lot and a bit of strange activity. From the opening of the Idaho Supreme Court ruling [PDF]:

On October 21, 2019, Brock Katseanes, a deputy sheriff employed by the Bingham County Sheriff’s Office, drove his patrol car into the parking lot of the Tilden Boat Ramp. He then noticed a car parked next to the public restroom. Katseanes later testified that the driver of the car looked as if she was “about to leave, decided not to, [then] backed up into [the parking] spot.” It appears from the body cam footage included in the record on appeal that Katseanes was parked with his windshield facing the front of the car.

As Katseanes observed the scene, “[t]he trunk opened up[,]” and it appeared that someone “was fiddling around with something in the back” of the car, reaching far into the back of the trunk. Katseanes saw the person’s feet under the car and then they “kind of disappear[ed], like they were going up into the trunk.” The feet then reappeared and “went out the backside of the car to the driver’s side, [it] looked like they were crouched down by the tire.”

Thinking that the driver possibly needed help with a flat tire, Katseanes approached the car. The car was unlocked, the trunk was still open, and the two front side windows were rolled down, but no one was there. Katseanes then relayed the car’s license plate number to police dispatch, which informed him the vehicle was registered to April Ramos. Katseanes was acquainted with Ramos and knew that she had an outstanding felony warrant. Katseanes requested back-up, including a canine to track Ramos.

All testimony is self-serving. Testimony given by cops is no less so. Note that Katseanes insisted his first concern was that someone might need some help with a flat tire. Note that his next move was to radio in the license plate number, which would do little to solve the alleged flat tire problem. Note also that he was “acquainted” with Ramos, which means he had probably arrested her in the past. Note also that Katseanes testified to an “outstanding felony warrant” but (as the court notes) never bothered to introduce that into evidence in this case.

While waiting for other officers and the K-9 unit to arrive, Katseanes searched the trunk of the car “several times.” He also opened the back door of the car and searched the back seat. While not performing the warrantless search of the car’s interior, Katseanes periodically called out to Ramos, who he assumed had been driving the vehicle.

The K-9 and other officers arrived. Katseanes opened the front passenger door and discovered an empty Ziploc bag. From this he inferred drug trafficking or possession. He spoke to another officer who helpfully stated the car had a “I got drugs smell.” Detective Dalley, the guy who decided a car had the odor of (unspecified) drugs also remarked to Katseanes that he knew April Ramos as well.

That was followed by this conversation, all duly recorded by Katseanes’ body camera:

Katseanes explained that he had not searched too far into the sagebrush area next to the car for fear he would interfere with [K-9] Duko’s tracking ability. “Don’t wanna [sic] do too much,” Katseanes explained.

I do wanna [sic] see Duko bite her f*cking face off though,” Dalley replied.

Katseanes laughed and gestured to his body-camera, which was recording. Dalley responded, “Oh yeah. Yeah, I realized that after I said that. My bad.” Once again, Katseanes laughed.

Hilarity. Someone suspected of nothing but leaving her trunk open (and the subject of warrants not on the record) was considered only worthy of having “her fucking face” bitten off by the incoming cop dog. Just lovely.

And that’s not even the end of it. More officers arrived and more officers expressed their hopes their K-9 would physically harm someone they could not locate, nor could articulately state (at least not in front of their cameras) they definitely needed to arrest.

As the officers discussed the possible routes Ramos could have taken away from the car, Croxford again asked if they wanted to use a drone. Katseanes explained that he thought the dog could get a scent to track Ramos because the officers had tried not to disturb the sagebrush.

“If he sniffs her, he’s gonna [sic] bite her,” Croxford replied. He grinned and continued: “That last one ended up in surgery, but it is what it is.”

All caught on tape. That was the prevalent attitude during this… well, not even a traffic stop, really. The car was already parked. Katseanes thought he saw someone accessing the trunk of the car but that person was gone by the time he approached the vehicle. The only thing his relay to dispatch confirmed was that the car was registered to Ramos, a criminal convict he had a history with. At no point did any officer really have any proof Ramos had driven the car to where it was parked, much less hidden herself in the surrounding bushes. Nonetheless, multiple officers expressed their hope that the dog they had brought to scene would physically harm Ramos.

The search of the area with the dog turned up nothing. Running out of options, the other officers asked Katseanes what he intended to do. And that’s when Katseanes told them he intended to violate the Constitution:

Miller, Duko, and Katseanes returned to the parking lot. While Miller went to his vehicle to get a “tracking collar” for Duko, Dalley asked Katseanes what he wanted to do with Ramos’s car. Katseanes answered, “Well, I’m gonna [sic] say we’re probably gonna [sic] tow it because I’m sure we’re probably gonna [sic] find narcotics in there. So once we do that, then we’ll tow it.”

Ah. But that’s putting the searched cart ahead of the absconded horse, so to speak. The inventory search is there to establish a factual record about a car’s contents. If those contents include contraband, so be it. What an inventory search isn’t is a permission slip to search a vehicle for contraband and then have it towed because it contains illegal substances.

And that’s as backward as their attitude towards Ramos. A dog can be brought in to search for people or contraband. It may also be deployed to subdue violent subjects. What it’s not there to do is harm someone simply for existing and being the (supposed) subject of an ongoing investigation — one that had yet to turn up any contraband, despite several warrantless searches of the parked car.

And it sure as shit isn’t allowed to perform searches these officers couldn’t perform legally, like multiple intrusions into people’s private property:

As later explained by the district court, “Duko . . . tracked into the dense sage, underbrush, and trees toward and along the Snake River. Duko explored the steps leading down to the river and the private back yards of neighboringproperties before being brought back to the parking area some fifteen (15) to twenty (20) minutes later.

If you want to treat a K-9 like an actual cop (and they definitely do when it comes to assaulting an officer charges), then it is subject to the same restraints human cops are subject to. But this dog was being handled by officers who openly expressed their desire that Duko would not only find Ramos, but subject her to intense physical violence (bite her face off, deliver wounds “requiring surgery”).

Having exhausted their options, the officers decided the best course of action might be one last Hail Mary rights violation.

During the sniff search, the other officers gathered next to the car to discuss next steps.
Croxford asked Katseanes what he wanted to do with the car, having been unsuccessful in their search for Ramos.

“Probably tow it,” answered Katseanes. Katseanes then asked Miller if Duko “got a hit on the inside,” to which Miller answered in the negative. “Oh, okay,” Katseanes responded, as he again looked through the open window at the front seats of the car.

“Well, she’s a trickster, she wins this one,” Yancey commented.

“She got lucky,” Katseanes agreed. “Still wanna [sic] know what’s in that glove though.”

One of the officers responded, “I’ll tell you when we do a tow inventory.”

“There you go,” said Katseanes.

During this conversation, Miller continued to have Duko sniff around the car. One of the officers remarked, “She coulda [sic] at least parked away from the bushes a little bit.”

“Yeah, I think it’s in, uh, handicap parking too,” Katseanes responded.

“It is,” the officer agreed. The other officers agreed as well. “Well, we’re obligated now,”
the officer stated.

This convenient declaration of the car being illegally parked was all Katseanes and the officers needed. A tow truck was called. A so-called “inventory search” was performed. During this more invasive search of the car, drugs were discovered.

But all of that was a lie. Testimony from the officer shows he didn’t actually know whether or the not the car was illegally parked.

During cross-examination, Katseanes explained why he believed the car to be in a no-parking zone: The tires on the passenger side of the car were parked outside of the parking spot on yellow, diagonal lines. However, Katseanes did not testify during the motion to suppress hearing whether the parking spot was reserved for accessible parking, nor did the State argue that the car was parked in an accessible parking space.

Ramos testified that she had seen a sign that led her to believe she could park the car there for up to 48 hours. She submitted two photos of the parking area into evidence, which included a sign warning drivers that any car parked for more than 48 hours would be towed.

The trial said both assertions were inconclusive. The judge visited the parking lot in person and determined the space Ramos’s car was indeed an “accessible” parking space and that Ramos possessed no permit allowing her to park in handicapped spots. Despite finding that such a minor infraction would not normally permit a warrantless search of a car, it sided with the officers’ inventory search because cars illegally parked in handicapped spots can be towed.

Not so fast, says this court. If the government wants to abandon its futile claims the vehicle might impede traffic or otherwise cause a public safety issue, it can’t fall back on arguments the state has never raised, much less codified. If the state wants to argue it’s obliged to tow any car that doesn’t currently have a driver behind the wheel just because it wants to prevent theft or vandalism, it’s opening itself up to a whole new level of litigation solely because it wants to preserve its evidence in one case where its inventory search exception argument failed to pay off.

The Idaho Supreme Court isn’t having any of this. This is short-sighted stupidity. The state should just take the loss and try to do better next time.

Allowing officers the discretion to impound a vehicle based on a concern for potential theft and property damage to the vehicle is the first step in creating a duty where one did not previously exist—or, at the very least, it is the first step in opening the floodgates of litigation. Officers who considered but decided against impounding a car could face a lawsuit contending they were negligent. The threat of a lawsuit, even one without merit, would unnecessarily cloud the officer’s judgment as to whether impounding a vehicle was reasonable under the Fourth Amendment. We cannot countenance unnecessarily subjecting officers to that sort of liability, particularly where Opperman does not demand it. Accordingly, an officer’s concern that the car will be subject to theft or property damage if it is not impounded—no matter how well-founded the concern may be—is irrelevant to the analysis as to whether the decision to impound the car is reasonable under the Fourth Amendment.

This is the court saving the cops from themselves. They’re likely going to lose the evidence discovered during this illegal search of Ramos’ car. But, in doing so, they won’t face a future filled with property claims from aggrieved citizens simply because they refused to tow a car that didn’t seem to need towing.

All of this is insanity. It begins with the stop — a stop predicated on helping someone with a flat tire that somehow ended with officers hoping their dog would seriously injure Ramos while writing themselves a blank check for Fourth Amendment violations by claiming their main concern was either illegal parking (the first argument) or fear for the vehicle’s safety (the argument thoroughly dismissed by this court).

It’s opportunism, bullying, and a perverse inability to recognize the end result of their self-serving flailing all rolled into one. These are not normal people. But we’re expected to treat them as our betters and forced to subject ourselves to their whims when we encounter these aberrations in person. All of it is ugly. But, for now, it’s slightly less ugly, even it’s only because this court won’t allow the government to engage in self-harm simply because it wants to salvage a small-ball drug bust.

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Comments on “The Casual Cruelty Of Cops: Inventory Search Edition”

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77 Comments
Anonymous Coward says:

Firstly, it’s definitely a positive step to see anarchist TC implicitly denounce Communism. So points for that.

Secondly, however, this line shows what’s wrong with much of TC’s coverage of law enforcement:

they’re [police] exactly who we think they are: violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.[emphasis mine] It would be absurd if it wasn’t actually frightening.

The vast majority of police aren’t “violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.” Most police are hardworking, loyal Americans who treat their fellow citizens with respect and only possibly intentionally violate the rights of known evildoers and illegal aliens.

I challenge TC (or MM) to produce statistics on how many encounters there are per year across the entire United States b/w law enforcement and civilians, and show how many of those interactions are anything other than benign and not-involving rights violations.

I’ll wait…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Firstly, it’s definitely a positive step to see anarchist TC implicitly denounce Communism. So points for that.

Don’t use words you don’t understand the meaning of.

The vast majority of police aren’t “violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.” Most police are hardworking, loyal Americans who treat their fellow citizens with respect and only possibly intentionally violate the rights of known evildoers and illegal aliens.

See below.

I challenge TC (or MM) to produce statistics on how many encounters there are per year across the entire United States b/w law enforcement and civilians, and show how many of those interactions are anything other than benign and not-involving rights violations.

I challenge you to produce statistics where the hardworking, loyal officers criticize their brethren who aren’t hardworking and loyal, who are “violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish”. If the hardworking loyal officers doesn’t say shit about their violent brethren, they aren’t particularly hardworking and loyal Americans, are they now?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: "I'll wait"

Funny thing, since the mid-20th century, the FBI was required to actually collect such data to be reported to the BJS by Congressional order. They ignored the order for decades.

Only recently have they been trying what with discovering (Pikachu Face) domestic white power terrorism is the greatest threat to the United States today, but most precincts in the US have refused to cooperate, and many of them do not file reports on their own violence.

This is how in 2014 after the Furguson unrest, news agencies found themselves dumbfounded that no one tracks officer-involved violence (well, there are voluntary civilian groups that track news articles and obits to police-shot bullets, but they miss a lot and have to exchange case-files to keep their own databases complete.)

In recent years (I think since 2019, here on Techdirt) it came out that precinct coroners routinely cover for their brethren in blue, making sure a dead body that took a bullet (or a blow to the head, or a knee to the neck) absolutely did not die from that effect if there’s anything else to blame. Some were happy to remove the officer-involved part of officer-involved homicides as just the cost of doing business.

So the lack of reports you’re appealing to has significantly more nefarious causes than a shortage of bad apples.

In 2023, there are only two kinds of police officers: Those that engage in violence and overreach, and those that lie in court to cover for the first group. The whole barrel has been rotted for decades. It’s why police abolition became a well considered idea during the George Floyd unrest in 2020: The US public suffers more from abuse of power by law enforcement than they do from the crime they allegedly are supposed to prevent.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

In 2023, there are only two kinds of police officers: Those that engage in violence and overreach, and those that lie in court to cover for the first group. The whole barrel has been rotted for decades. It’s why police abolition became a well considered idea during the George Floyd unrest in 2020: The US public suffers more from abuse of power by law enforcement than they do from the crime they allegedly are supposed to prevent.

Let’s see if you are right. I suggest an experiment.
Take any small town of between 10 to 15 thousand and remove their police department. I think that within a month the people will demand the return of their police but wait 3 years and see if it becomes the hell hole I envision.

Then return it’s police department and let’s see how long it takes to revive the town to it’s previous state. I predict 10 years.

All we need is a town that would endure such nonsense. CHAZ?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Exactly, because if we can’t let police be the fuckups that they are, or let the other ‘good apples’ go on supporting the fuckups’ behavior, then it’ll be chaos.
Preach your bullshit somewhere else, you parnoid coward.

Said the Anonymous Coward.

I know you want to spew your rhetoric unchallenged so you can pass it off as a problem solved but the fact is your solution would be a far worse problem and you know it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t stop you from spewing.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Said the Anonymous Coward.

My anonyminity is irreleveant – you know this you little chicken-shit, but I’m not the one who’s going to be hiding in my closet if the police somehow go away, or decide to not do their jobs.

I’m going to be the taxpayer, paying less, while not getting anything less than I expected to otherwise. Don’t blame me for a lack of confidence in police. Those morons brought that on themselves. Tell them to fuck off to the private sector, starting with your son, you fucking hypocrite.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

My anonyminity is irreleveant – you know this you little chicken-shit, but I’m not the one who’s going to be hiding in my closet if the police somehow go away, or decide to not do their jobs.

Your anonymity is directly related to your cowardice.

I’m going to be the taxpayer, paying less, while not getting anything less than I expected to otherwise. Don’t blame me for a lack of confidence in police. Those morons brought that on themselves. Tell them to fuck off to the private sector, starting with your son, you fucking hypocrite.

If you weren’t such a coward, you would tell them yourself.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Hey, asshole: Whether someone puts a name to their comments isn’t a judge of the quality of those comments. Some people require anonymity to speak with a lesser risk of social/legal consequences.

So they are frightened. Of what? You and I both post with a username.

Is that something you’d like to take away?

No, I just think they are they are the cowards they say they are.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

So they are frightened. Of what?

In some places, speaking out against the authorities can get a person killed. Anonymity helps mitigate that risk…

I just think they are they are the cowards they say they are.

…and you would still call them cowards for taking that risk.

Besides, you’re not exactly using your government name, bootlicker. Mine is attached to my comments. If anonymous posters are cowards for not attaching their names to their comments, you’re little better for not doing the same.

So what are you afraid of?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

In some places, speaking out against the authorities can get a person killed. Anonymity helps mitigate that risk…
…and you would still call them cowards for taking that risk.

I think it’s bullshit. They are just cowards spouting off and not willing to back up what they say with any kind of facts or logic.

Besides, you’re not exactly using your government name, bootlicker. Mine is attached to my comments. If anonymous posters are cowards for not attaching their names to their comments, you’re little better for not doing the same.

So what are you afraid of?

Nothing because that’s all bullshit.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I think it’s bullshit. They are just cowards spouting off and not willing to back up what they say with any kind of facts or logic.

As opposed to you, who spouts off bullshit and expects the rest of us to lick as much boot as you lick because of your oh-so-precious son?

that’s all bullshit

Then give us your full government name, bootlicker. If you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide. Besides, ain’t that what cops (and their bootlickers) say to “suspects” all the time?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Knowing that you had to follow all the laws of the land and the regulations of the department to the letter⁠—which means (among other things) no using excessive force, no making false pretense stops, and no qualified immunity for a failure to follow the laws and regulations⁠—would you be a cop?

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Excessive is subjective. About half the body mounted footage I’ve seen shows situations that could have been handled differently, absolutely. But excessive, extremely rare.
Now , maybe you and I have a different idea of how to deal with a person shooting at you, or running at you with a battle axe. I definitely don’t see the need for 6 cops to dump 3 20+ round clips into a suspect holding a knife.
Qualified immunity is abused. Most people, pro or against laws and law enforcement, agree on that. It eroded discipline.
But l find actual cases of excess to be rather rare.

As for false pretension, well, as long as there is a legal reason for the stop, there is a reason for the stop. If that criminal act that gets you pulled over leads to discovery of other crimes, that’s on the criminal.i fully support the idea of compounding investigation.
Follow the law and you don’t have a reason for concern.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Not everyone liked The Notebook.

And the Expendables franchise is more than recovering its production costs. It may only have 38m in the box office but has already passed 40m in 2 weeks as a digital release.. $20m in rentals alone.
You may not enjoy the throwback action films but the market is there. Looks to be doing quite well. Even if the studio can’t figure out the target audience has no interest in going to the theatre.

Oh, and the point. I’ve said that many times, here. I don’t attack, I strike back. Make sure I’m dead. Etc. I’m a rather peaceful person. But I won’t cower.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Knowing that you had to follow all the laws of the land and the regulations of the department to the letter⁠—which means (among other things) no using excessive force, no making false pretense stops, and no qualified immunity for a failure to follow the laws and regulations⁠—would you be a cop?

No I wouldn’t want to be a cop without QI. I wouldn’t want to be bankrupted or imprisoned by some judge’s decision that what I was trained and ordered to do was now illegal.

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: "And remove their police department"

No small town exists in a vacuum, davec. And despite what you might imagine from Stephen King novels, our small towns don’t teem with serial killers and cannibal cults.

But what hurts them most is similarly hidden.

The crime that most greatly affects small town United States is elite deviance, id est white collar crime. Don’t think John Wayne Gacy, think Purdue Pharma and the Sacklers. Don’t think Bonnie and Clyde, think Halliburton and George W. Bush’s war in Iraq. Think of DuPont and PFOA contaminating the world’s water supply. Think of the fossil fuel industry and the US automotive industry.

If we actually had regulatory agencies that served the public, if we had investigators going after elite deviants (id est white collar criminals) then we’d have fewer deaths, less destruction and less direct cost, even if petty criminals went on a murder / bank-robbery / spree in the meantime.

And that’s before we think about replacing police forces with programs to actually solve underlying problems like poverty, hunger, unemployment (underemployment) drug and booze dependencies, and (interestingly) lead in our water which actually makes people more violent as it poisons them. (We had the same problem with lead in our gasoline in the 20th century.)

So I say your experiment is irrelevant, but stereotypical of thinking in the western world. It seems to be easier for us to imagine the end of the world than imagine the end of capitalism, and maybe the same is true regarding the end of the police state. But then every law enforcement department in the US regards the American civilian as their enemy, so they’d likely try to kill us all if we attempted to disband them.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

replacing police forces with programs to actually solve underlying problems

The “funny” thing is, if we actually did this, we would need less police precisely because people being able to get what they need to survive⁠—food, clean water, shelter, clothing, and even medication⁠—is what prevents crime. Desperation is what turns most people into criminals, and that’s before we get into the contrast between what the police/criminal legal system considers a crime and what the average person considers a crime.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The “funny” thing is, if we actually did this, we would need less police precisely because people being able to get what they need to survive⁠—food, clean water, shelter, clothing, and even medication⁠—is what prevents crime. Desperation is what turns most people into criminals, and that’s before we get into the contrast between what the police/criminal legal system considers a crime and what the average person considers a crime.

The funnier part is I actually agree with some of what you say. The police have way too much on their plate and they would love some help from other agencies. Unfortunately, many of these agencies are understaffed and underpaid. The police union in LA suggested that people in these agencies become non-gun carry first responders doing exactly what they would have done as volunteers but with careers and retirements similar to sworn officers. The hold up on that hasn’t been the police but those opposed to the police.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Unfortunately, many of these agencies are understaffed and underpaid.

Maybe think about why that is. Maybe consider that police departments get the kind of funding that, if directed to other agencies, could be used to properly staff those agencies. Maybe consider that the reason for the police getting all that funding is an ass-backwards ideology that presupposes “more police means more safety” when hiring more cops doesn’t, on its own, prevent homelessness or poverty or child hunger.

And maybe consider that your willingness to lick boot is what helps contribute to the “don’t defund the cops, give them more money, even if it doesn’t help society” ideology that keeps underfunding the agencies you’re shittalking.

You don’t live in a vacuum. You live in a society. Start acting like it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

And maybe consider that your willingness to lick boot is what helps contribute to the “don’t defund the cops, give them more money, even if it doesn’t help society” ideology that keeps underfunding the agencies you’re shittalking.

Armies have people that are trained to do different tasks, but everyone is still in the army. Cities have budgets with sign up and retention bonuses for police positions that they can’t fill yet citizens are still want more police officers. Why not move those public agencies within the police department and offer them careers and retirements for doing the same jobs they were doing before. People get the services they demand and there are fewer armed police officers.

The only people opposed to such an idea are the anti-cop shitheads like you that want to believe that all cops are Chauvin and that might destroy your argument.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Why not move those public agencies within the police department and offer them careers and retirements for doing the same jobs they were doing before

That is a curious observation. You cops will take the weapons, but not the people. Wonder why that is? It’s almost like there’s a systematic culture that routinely pushes away the people who aren’t into the constantly escalating, power tripping, football jock in-crowd that you regularly defend.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No small town exists in a vacuum, davec. And despite what you might imagine from Stephen King novels, our small towns don’t teem with serial killers and cannibal cults.

Exactly. Once they found out there was no police force, that is where all the criminals would go.

And that’s before we think about replacing police forces with programs to actually solve underlying problems like poverty, hunger, unemployment (underemployment) drug and booze dependencies, and (interestingly) lead in our water which actually makes people more violent as it poisons them. (We had the same problem with lead in our gasoline in the 20th century.)

Without law and order you can’t address any of those problems. The non-police people assigned to address the above problems aren’t going to do that if it ends up getting them killed.

So I say your experiment is irrelevant, but stereotypical of thinking in the western world. It seems to be easier for us to imagine the end of the world than imagine the end of capitalism, and maybe the same is true regarding the end of the police state. But then every law enforcement department in the US regards the American civilian as their enemy, so they’d likely try to kill us all if we attempted to disband them.

CHAZ in Seattle was a no police area. It didn’t last long and that wasn’t because of the police, it was because the citizens demanded protection.

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Once they found out there was no police force, that is where all the criminals would go.

And all the mobsters and serial killers in society could not, in a hypothetical coordinated effort, cause as much harm to society than Purdue Pharma L.P. and ExxonMobil Corporation have caused. Much like counterterror efforts in the United States after the 9/11 attacks,

Without law and order you can’t address any of those problems.

Any way that I read this, it is such a ridiculous statement that I can only assume it means to you some

CHAZ in Seattle was a no police area.

CHAZ was far removed from an organized effort to create a society without paramilitary law enforcement, and was a protest against the failure of law enforcement to actually address violent crime (and engaging in preventable brutality in the meantime).

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Oh goody! The Techdirt Editor predumped my draft into the conversation!

Without law and order you can’t address any of those problems.

Any way that I read this, it is such a ridiculous statement that I can only assume it means to you… something different. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, davec perhaps you should elaborate what you specifically mean by this statement.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Firstly (for the second time), it’s definitely a positive step to see an@rchist TC implicitly denounce Commun!sm. So points for that.

Secondly, however, this line shows what’s wrong with much of TC’s coverage of law enforcement:

they’re [police] exactly who we think they are: violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.[emphasis mine] It would be absurd if it wasn’t actually frightening.

The vast majority of police aren’t “violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.” Most police are hardworking, loyal Americans who treat their fellow citizens with respect and only possibly intentionally violate the rights of known evildoers and illegal aliens.

I challenge TC (or MM) to produce statistics on how many encounters there are per year across the entire United States b/w law enforcement and civilians, and show how many of those interactions are anything other than benign and not-involving rights violations.

I’ll wait…

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Did you even attempt to think? To quote:

“… only possibly intentionally violate the rights of known evildoers and illegal aliens.”

Replace “known” with “suspected” and your statement will be closer to correct. The real issue is that those officers violate the rights of far more people than just the ones published. For if an officer illegally searches someone and finds nothing, then that officer doesn’t press charges and the person who’s rights were violated has a vanishing small chance of pressing charges as well simply because the cost of pressing those charges is far greater than any expected return from the court case.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The vast majority of police aren’t “violent people whose casual cruelty borders on cartoonish.”

And the vast majority of non-police aren’t gun-wielding homicidal maniacs, punks cosplaying as a F-1 racers, or organized cartels of drug dealers and grand theft auto orchestrators. But that’s what cops are trained to think, and react accordingly.

It’s not like this is a secret. Cops and their defenders regularly cite their training as justification for going in, all guns blazing, and insist that they have to treat every traffic stop and search like a life-or-death scenario each time someone reaches for the glove box.

These cops chose to salivate at the idea of one of their canine units savaging a random civilian because the idea of sending someone to the ER gave them an erection. This kind of dumbass shit is why cops insist that their dogs have to be put down if they’re not allowed to false flag cocaine detection on random cars – because the dogs are intentionally trained to be savage even under benign situations. These cops brought it on themselves by being the equivalent of frat house bros getting together to harass a cheerleader or a nerd in the school hallway.

What did you want Cushing or the rest of us to do? Celebrate this behavior? Kiss the ground where they walked?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

What did you want Cushing or the rest of us to do? Celebrate this behavior? Kiss the ground where they walked?

Provide data on the total number of interactions annually at all levels b/w law enforcement and American citizens (and legal permanent residents, and legal visitors), and note how many of those interactions involve alleged rights violations…

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

When the police regularly cite their training and “good faith” in their disciplinary hearings, it’s not a generalization. Even the police apologist simps like davec and Lostinlodos cite the exact same excuses, every time, when the cops are questioned on their decisions to escalate when it was unnecessary.

If you’re not happy that people are making generalizations, maybe don’t make the same statements to defend your brutality and have them added to the record.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Here is a question for you,

Which is why not a single cop called any of these cops out.

I challenge you to share how many cops condemned cops:
raping, murdering, or beating people
breaking the law
lying
being racist scum

If the “best” cop is a person who turns the other way while their co-workers beat someone down and execute them in cold blood then those cops are no better.

If “good” cops don’t want to be treated like human garbage, then they should clean up their own ranks.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Which is why not a single cop called any of these cops out.

Who knows? Perhaps because they are professionals, have respect for their colleagues, and don’t believe in publicly denouncing co-workers merely at the suspicion of improper behavior? i.e., they believe in the presumption of innocence!!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Perhaps because they are professionals, have respect for their colleagues, and don’t believe in publicly denouncing co-workers merely at the suspicion of improper behavior?

The truth is, as many such “good cops” have cited, is that the ones who denounce such improper behavior get harshly dealt with. Either kicked out of the force, reassigned elsewhere, or relentlessly harassed by the bad actors in their midst until their resistance breaks down and they become part of the problem.

they believe in the presumption of innocence

Nah, they don’t. If they believed in the presumption of innocence, they wouldn’t be standing by and watching as their colleagues brutalize random civilians because they needed to feel like a high school bully that day.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Perhaps because they are professionals, have respect for their colleagues, and don’t believe in publicly denouncing co-workers merely at the suspicion of improper behavior?

Therein lies the problem: So long as the Blue Wall exists and supposedly good cops refuse to take the bad cops to task for whatever reason, there is no such thing as a good cop.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Perhaps because they are professionals, have respect for their colleagues, and don’t believe in publicly denouncing co-workers merely at the suspicion of improper behavior?”

Or maybe they know that, like many large organizations and groups, whistleblowers get no protections. They get fucked over instead.

It’s not like this is news. It’s not like this is a secret. In the wake of corrupt cop or department investigations, plenty of such testimonies start crawling out of the woodwork to criticize police culture, or how wrongdoers were routinely protected from the consequences of their actions.

Hell, even cop apologist davec admitted to having his son see that shit.

Your slavish devotion to the reputation of even abusive cops would be cute in a “third grade student’s first crush” sort of way, if it wasn’t emboldening bullies and getting people killed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Who knows?

We, their employers, don’t. That’s why they get the ‘presumption of being an asshole’ treatment.
And that’s why any of these so-called ‘good cops’ are equally pieces of shit.

If you don’t want them to look like a roided up bunch of simpletons, subject to public ridicule, quit lowering your fucking standards. It’s not that we make them look like assholes…they do it to themselves.

i.e., they believe in the presumption of innocence!!

Marked this as funny. You’re so full of shit, my asshole’s jealous.

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Who knows? Perhaps because they are professionals, have respect for their colleagues…

As a professional who has respect for all (well… most) of my colleagues, if I knew or suspected one of them was breaking the law while carrying out their job I would be expected to report it, because (1) not doing so could have repercussions for the rest of us, and (2) I have no fear of my colleagues retaliating against me for doing the right thing. The fact that neither of these things appears to apply to cops is damning of ALL cops.

…and don’t believe in publicly denouncing co-workers merely at the suspicion of improper behavior?

Who says it has to be public?

i.e., they believe in the presumption of innocence!!

And you don’t seem to understand the concept at all. The presumption of innocence applies in the courtroom, not when you’re witnessing actions you believe are illegal. You’re basically saying nobody should ever report someone for a crime because they have the presumption of innocence in a court. Surely you can hear how braindead that sounds.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

flat tire

There are good cops out there you know, like the 99%

Note that his next move was to radio in the license plate number

When the occupant suddenly vanishes? This is a surprise?

While not performing the

Logical search of the extremely suspicious abandonment

I do wanna [sic] see Duko bite

Bit of a sick joke, maybe author is on to something for a rare change.

Someone suspected of nothing but leaving

Having a felony warrant
Flight from law enforcement with a felony warrant
Potential possession of a criminal substance

But that’s putting the searched cart ahead of the absconded horse

An abandoned vehicle left open an (potentially) illegally parked can be searched.

But, oh, it’s time. Who not only hates cops, but hates laws and feels nobody should abide by them if he disagrees with the law.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

There are good cops out there you know, like the 99%

You know, there are good citizens out there, like the 99%. Or the “law-abiding citizens” that are the other half of “benign” cop-citizen interactions. After all, if you can claim that most cops have benign interactions with citizens surely it follows that most citizens are good, too.

But it’s funny how all of that goes out the fucking window because a cop decides he wants to relive his glory days in the high school locker room again.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re:

The bad thing here is the police officers joking about a k9 officer attack. Nobody is going to defend that.

The rest appears completely reasonable. He stopped to investigate a lone person in a car in a parking lot outside of standard use hours. Potentially offering to help a stranded motorist, or otherwise detain for criminal activity.

The motorist turned out to be a wanted felon. Who then fled capture. Leaving behind an open and accessible vehicle. Searching the abandoned vehicle of a fleeing felon is standard procedure.

The stupidity here is depending on the tow inventory. Flight from arrest is probable cause alone.

Even if the wrong processes or laws are applied initially, inevitable discovery should still cover this.

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 The philosophy of hitting back

Deep dives into reciprocity get into the prisoner’s dilemma, say two spies captured by the enemy, separated and invited to betray each other for their own benefit.

~ If they both keep mum, there’s a modest penalty/gain.
~ If one betrays, that spy gets a substantial benefit and the other gets penalized greatly.
~ If they both betray each other, they both get penalized greatly.

(Sometimes numbers are inserted to weight them and see if it creates changes)

It is (or was) regarded as a paradox since human captives tend to keep mum, (not snitch) even when offered immunity or a vastly reduced sentence. There really is honor among thieves. In time we figured out it’s an instinct found in predator mammals. Wolves will defend pack-mates or even other lesser animals against an angry bear, at risk to personal life and limb, while they’ll gladly retreat when no-one is cornered.

(Curiously, the US law enforcement uses this as a escalating tactic, harassing one suspect while another stands free. This can provoke the second into defending the first and entering the fray. Then the officers are justified in putting a beatdown on both. But I digress.)

Generally, the philosophy is to give allies (against a common, powerful foe) the benefit of the doubt. This can be weighted by prejudices, but in the anti-gang crackdowns of the 1990s urban street gangs commonly refused to testify against enemy gangsters, even if it meant they’d personally serve time. Codes of silence proved quite effective against DA investigative efforts.

So how did we learn this counter-intuitive instinct? At first glance, the prisoner’s dilemma looks like a singular event. But from a survival standpoint, it’s recurring. The specific scenario might not always be the same, but the framework will recur. Betraying the other guy is advantageous if the story ends afterwords. But if you do this every day, the benefit of staying thick as thieves becomes evident.

Now not all captives are made the same, and modern law enforcement have gotten very good at turning detainees, partially due to torture and inhumane treatment such as the Reid technique, which involves beating, starving or gaslighting a confession out of a suspect. Our prisons teem with convicts by false confession. Again, I digress.

And to this effect, if you have experiences to inform your standing, you can adopt a strategy. One such is the tit-for-tat strategy: when you are betrayed, betray in the next iteration, then go back to trust. This is the basic when hit, hit back strategy.

But this has two issues with it: One is the other captive might change between iterations, in which case shit rolls downhill (or just rolls around). Your bad experience with one spy informs you fucking over the next spy whether or not they were trustworthy.

A different problem, if dealing with a recurring opposing captive happens with both use tit-for-tat and get out of sync. Then they screw each other over back and forth in perpetuity, so a family feud, or an HBO TV series with lots of boobs.

And a mildly more advanced stratagem is to take up a little bit of Jesus: tit-for-tat, but roll a die and turn the other cheek on five or six pips. That way, feuds run for a limited time before mutual interest resumes.

Personally, I’m very rarely in such a dilemma, and I like to pretend I’m honorable, so I give individuals the benefit of the doubt. If they screw me, I can talk to them or not deal with them since real life is often more complex than basic philosophy models.

Corporate customer service departments can just go fuck themselves, though.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

lmao, of course you don’t get it. You’re the kind of person who would let your kid bully another kid, call the police to arrest the victimized kid for making a drawing expressing her dislike of being bullied, then defend the school and police department cuffing the bullied kid.

I’d cite the article where you boasted about this but really, I’ve played into your power trip fantasies enough.

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