Your ‘Simple Solution’ To Section 230 Is Bad: Julia Angwin Edition

from the that's-not-how-any-of-this-works dept

It’s getting to be somewhat exhausting watching people who don’t understand Section 230 insisting they have a simple solution for whatever problems they think (mostly incorrectly) are created by Section 230. And, of course, the NY Times seems willing to publish all of them. This is the same NY Times that had to run a correction that basically overturned the entire premise of an article attacking Section 230. And it did so twice.

An earlier version of this article incorrectly described the law that protects hate speech on the internet. The First Amendment, not Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, protects it.

But that hasn’t stopped the Times from repeatedly running stories and opinion pieces that simply get Section 230’s basic fundamentals wrong.

And now it’s done so again, with brand new columnist Julia Angwin. I have a ton of respect for the investigative journalism that Angwin has done over the years at the Wall St. Journal, ProPublica, and the Markup (which she co-founded, and only recently just left). She’s helped shine some important light on places where technology has gone wrong, especially in the realm of privacy.

But that does not mean she understands Section 230.

Her very first piece for the NY Times is her recommendation to “revoke” Section 230 in a manner that she (falsely) believes will “keep internet content freewheeling,” in a piece entitled “It’s Time to Tear Up Big Tech’s Get-Out-of-Jail-Free Card.” Even if she didn’t write the headline, it is an unfortunately accurate description of her piece, and it also demonstrates just how wrong the piece is.

Let’s start with the “get-out-of-jail-free” part. Section 230 has never been and never will be a “get-out-of-jail-free” card for “big tech.” First, it protects every website, and with it, everyone who uses intermediary websites to speak. It’s not a special benefit for “big tech.” It’s a law that protects all of our speech online, making it possible for websites to host our speech.

Second, the whole point of 230 is to put the liability on the proper party: the one who actually violated the law. So, at best you could claim that 230 is a “keep-innocent-party-out-of-jail-card” which makes it seem a lot… more reasonable? On top of that, Section 230 has no impact on federal criminal liability (you don’t go to jail for civil suits), but I guess we can chalk that up to inaccurate rhetorical flourishes.

But just how does Angwin strive to fix 230 without destroying the open internet? Her simple solution to 230 is to say 230 only covers speech, not conduct.

But there is a way to keep internet content freewheeling while revoking tech’s get-out-of-jail-free card: drawing a distinction between speech and conduct.

In this scenario, companies could continue to have immunity for the defamation cases that Congress intended, but they would be liable for illegal conduct that their technology enables.

First of all, let’s be clear: she is not actually drawing a distinction between speech and conduct. As the second paragraph shows, she’s saying that websites should be held liable for conduct by third parties that is enabled by speech also from third parties. It’s very much a “blame the tool” type of argument. And it would open the floodgates for a shitload of frivolous, vexatious litigation from lawyers looking to force basically any website to settle rather than endure the costs and attention drain of their lawsuits.

Here’s where it’s important, yet again, to explain how Section 230 actually works. The fundamental point of Section 230 is to put the blame on the proper party: whoever is imbuing the content with whatever makes that content violate the law. That’s it.

The desire to blame websites because they haven’t managed to stop all humans from using their websites to do something bad, is such a weird obsession. Why not just do what 230 does and put the blame on the party violating the law? Why is this so difficult?

Angwin focuses on a somewhat peculiar example, that only undermines basically all of her claims: ads on Facebook that she claims violate the Fair Housing Act (there are some questions as to whether or not many of the ads she describes in the piece actually would violate that law, but we’ll leave that aside). It goes back to a story that Angwin wrote years back at ProPublica, where she discovered that it was possible to abuse Facebook’s ad targeting to post housing ads that discriminated by race. Over the years, Facebook has made many adjustments to try to stop this, but also found that people kept working up ways to effectively do the same thing anyway.

In other words: some people are going to do bad stuff. And even if you make social media sites try to stop them from doing bad stuff… the people are going to try to figure out ways to continue to do bad stuff. And, no one, especially not the folks at Facebook, is smart enough to figure out every possible abuse vector and prevent it from happening. And that’s why Section 230 does exactly the right thing here: it says we don’t blame social media because someone figured out how to game the system to do something illegal: you blame the person who did the actual illegal thing (i.e., post an ad that violates anti-discrimination laws).

Angwin, somewhat oddly, seems to suggest that the legal change is necessary to put pressure on Facebook to be more responsive, but her own piece details how Facebook has continually responded to public pressure (often from articles Angwin and her colleagues have written) to try to cut off this or that avenue for bad actors to abuse the system. She also notes that Facebook was sued a bunch of times over all this and… still reached multiple settlements to settle those lawsuits.

In 2019, three years after I purchased that first discriminatory housing ad, Facebook reached a settlement to resolve several legal cases brought by individual job seekers and civil rights groups and agreed to set up a separate portal for housing, employment and credit ads, where the use of race, gender, age and other protected categories would be prohibited. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission also reached settlements with several advertisers that had targeted employment ads by age.

[….]

Last year, Meta agreed to yet another settlement, this time with the U.S. Department of Justice. The company agreed to pay a fine of more than $115,000 and to build a new algorithm — just for housing ads — that would distribute such ads in a nondiscriminatory manner. But the settlement didn’t fix any inherent bias embedded in credit, insurance or employment ad distribution algorithms.

So, uh, that sounds like the law is actually working? Also, the public pressure? Why do we need to take away 230 again?

Also, highlighting Fair Housing Act claims is doubly weird, as one of the most famous Section 230 cases was the Roommates case, in which the 9th Circuit said Roommates.com did not qualify for Section 230 protections in a case where it had created a pull-down menu that allowed users to express their own preferences for roommates based on race. In that case, the court (correctly) distinguished the difference between speech of third parties, and a situation where the site itself imbued the content with its problematic nature.

And, as our own Cathy Gellis detailed, the long-forgotten part of the Roommates saga was that after the company lost 230 protections, years later, it still won the case. Just because you think something bad has happened, does not mean it’s illegal, and it does not mean you should get to throw legal liability on any tool that was used in the process. As Eric Goldman has noted, the only proper way to view Section 230 is as a procedural benefit that helps websites get rid of frivolous lawsuits at an earlier, less expensive stage.

This is important, because Angwin makes a fundamental factual error in her piece that many, many people make regarding Section 230: if you remove it, it does not automatically create liability for companies. It just means that they no longer have the faster procedural path to get out of cases where no liability should be there. Angwin, and many others, assume that removing 230 would automatically create liability for companies, even as we’ve seen in Roommates and lots of other cases that is just not true.

In fact, Angwin gets this so wrong in her piece, that she falsely states the following:

Courts have already been heading in this direction by rejecting the use of Section 230 in a case where Snapchat was held liable for its design of a speed filter that encouraged three teenage boys to drive incredibly fast in the hopes of receiving a virtual reward. They crashed into a tree and died.

This is just flat out false, and the NY Times should append a correction here. The case she’s referring to, Lemmon v. Snap has (so far) simply held that Snap can’t get out of the case on 230 grounds. No court has said that Snap is liable for the design. It’s possible the case may get there, but looking at the docket (something Angwin or her editors could have easily done, but apparently chose not to?) shows that the case is still going through discovery. No determination has been yet made regarding Snap’s liability. The only thing that’s been decided is that it can’t use 230 to get the case dismissed. It is entirely possible (and perhaps likely?) that like many other cases where a 230 defense is rejected, eventually the platform wins anyway, just after a much longer and more expensive process.

So, what would happen if Angwin got her wish? Would it actually “keep internet content freewheeling”? Of course not. As her own example showed, it’s effectively impossible for Facebook — or any website — to stop individuals from abusing their tools to do something that might be illegal, immoral, or unethical. Assuming that they can is a fool’s errand, and Julia Angwin is no fool.

What Section 230 does is actually give companies like Facebook much more freedom to experiment and to adjust to try to stop those abuses without fear that each change will subject them anew to a set of costly lawsuits.

So if we make the change that Angwin wants, you now make it so many fewer companies will offer these kinds of useful services, because the risk of being flooded by frivolous, vexatious lawsuits increases. Even worse, you make it much more difficult to adjust and experiment and try to stop the bad behavior in question, because each change introduces you to new potential liability. A better approach for companies in such a scenario is actually never to try to fix anything, because doing so will suggest they have knowledge of the problem, and any of these lawsuits is dead on arrival if the company cannot be shown to have any knowledge.

We’ve also talked about this before, and it’s a common mistake that those who don’t understand Section 230 make: they assume that if you remove 230 and something bad happens, sites would be automatically liable. Not true. The 1st Amendment would require that the website have actual knowledge of the problem.

So: the end result of this little change would be many, many website refuse to host certain types of content at all. And other websites would refuse to do anything to try to stop any bad behavior, because any change subjects them anew to litigation to argue over whether or not that change enabled something bad. And you encourage the few remaining websites left willing to host this kind of content to put their head in the sand, lest they show themselves to have the knowledge necessary for liability.

In other words: it’s a clusterfuck that does nothing to solve the underlying problem that Angwin describes of discriminatory ads.

You know what does help? Leaving 230’s protections in place, allowing companies to constantly adjust and get better, without fear of liability because one jackass abuses the system. On top of that, letting lawsuits and enforcement target the actual bad actors again does the proper thing in going after the people actually violating the law, rather than the tool they used.

Once again, I will note that Angwin is a fantastic reporter, who has done important work. But I hope that her contributions to the NY Times will involve her getting a better understanding of the underlying issues she’s writing about. Because this first piece is not up to the level I would expect from her, and actually does quite a bit to undermine her previous work.

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Comments on “Your ‘Simple Solution’ To Section 230 Is Bad: Julia Angwin Edition”

No, fuck that. The NYT’s abysmal coverage of trans issues isn’t some fresh decline to a previously-respectable newspaper, any more than Tom Cotton advocating for the military to murder protesters, Judith Miller‘s lies about Iraqi WMDs, Bret Stephens’ various tantrums, or its ban on using the word “gay” was. Or that time in 1922 when they assured readers Hitler wasn’t really that antisemitic.

The New York Times has done some excellent journalism in its time, and put its money where its mouth was in famous First Amendment cases like NYT v Sullivan and NYT v US. But it’s also done some legitimately terrible journalism, for over a century — The New Republic was calling it on its bullshit all the way back in 1920.

This thing you’re doing, waxing nostalgic about the Good Old Days of the New York Times — that’s the problem! This reputation that the Times is the Paper of Record and deserves special deference that other news sources don’t — that’s the problem!

It’s a news source, like any other — better than some, worse than others, fallible and imperfect and deserving of skepticism, criticism, critical thinking, and independent verification, no matter what its claims are.

Stop putting it on a fucking pedestal. That’s exactly what makes its falsehoods, from the case for the Iraq war to the case against healthcare for trans people, so dangerous.

See also: The New York Times is the Problem, Oliver Willis.

— Thad

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Matthew N Bennett says:

The amount of “repeal 230” rhetoric that’s just outright wrong hurts my brain. How can people be this stupid and ignorant for the sake of “fighting hate speech”?

If 230 got repealed, these same silly twentysomethings would be writing article after article on the “fall of the web” because of the amount of websites that would forever close, unable to deal with the huge amount of frivolous lawsuits that would result from hurt feelings over forums and internet comments sections that they are now legally liable for.

I mean, would it even be the internet anymore if I couldn’t get called a “cartoonish white nationalist” under a Masnick article about Elon?

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re:

I see I like this guy, cuz he really does say a lot of what I would say, but he’s only half right here.

1) If 230 were repealed (which I do not want) it’s not like people would magically become responsible for shit they didn’t write. That was a legal theory, at best, as yet mostly untested.

2) We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint (say, anyone “misgendering” someone, whatever you think that means) then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it. You went from “a bunch of people saying stuff” to a particular, controlled, message, cuz you straight up didn’t allow anything else.

3) the youtube lawsuit before SCOTUS is stupid and doesn’t tackle anything I want tackled.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re:

We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint (say, anyone “misgendering” someone, whatever you think that means) then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it.

Why? It’s still content that was posted by someone other than the platform, which makes the platform not liable, and assuming you even got to a proper trial on this, choosing what to host and what not to host is has to do with expression, which is a 1A thing. In other words, the suit would get thrown out.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint ……. then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it.

Really, you would stop the building of communities of like minded people online, because by doing that you open the site to attacks that drain their resources even if they win every case.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

If 230 were repealed (which I do not want) it’s not like people would magically become responsible for shit they didn’t write. That was a legal theory, at best, as yet mostly untested.

So you don’t know why section 230 was created in the first place then. You shouldn’t make statements about things you don’t understand or bothered to learn about.

We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint (say, anyone “misgendering” someone, whatever you think that means) then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it.

So let me get this straight. If someone leaves a viewpoint up they aren’t responsible for it but if they remove viewpoints they don’t want to be associated with they become responsible for those viewpoints?

How does someone even come up with that kind of twisted logic?

the youtube lawsuit before SCOTUS is stupid and doesn’t tackle anything I want tackled.

Exactly, you want to make someone else responsible for speech they don’t want to be associated with using a logical fallacy.

HotHead says:

Re: Re:

We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint (say, anyone “misgendering” someone, whatever you think that means) then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it.

Let me get this straight. Suppose I run a social media site. Someone posts “trans women are men”. My moderator deletes the post because I don’t want transphobia on my site. How do you get from “HotHead’s site moderates transphobia” to “HotHead’s site should be liable for users’ transphobic posts whenever the site moderates those posts”?

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HotHead says:

Re: Re:

If 230 were repealed (which I do not want) it’s not like people would magically become responsible for shit they didn’t write.

That is what Mike is saying. Formally speaking, you are correct. In practice, getting rid of Section 230 is, for small websites like Techdirt, effectively the same as placing liability for third-party content on the website.

The point of Section 230 is that if at the end of a court case a site would later be found not liable due to the First Amendment, then Section 230 would likely allow the court to declare a the site’s First Amendment immunity at a much earlier stage in the lawsuit. Why is this necessary? Because going through all of the stages of a lawsuit is expensive enough to convince sites to settle, to pay money for something they shouldn’t be liable for in the first place. If the Supreme Court interprets Section 230 against the writers’ (Chris Cox and Ron Wyden) express intentions, many sites which host user-generated content would have immunity from liability for third-party speech on paper, but not in practice.

In an amicus brief [PDF link] filed in Gonzalez v. Google, Chris Cox and Ron Wyden clearly explained the correct interpretation of Section 230. From the paragraph which starts on labeled page 3 and ends on page 4 (which you can read straight from the official source I just linked):

An interactive computer service is
immune only if (1) it is not “responsible, in whole or in part, for the creation or development of” the content at issue, 47 U.S.C. § 230(f)(3), and (2) the claim seeks to“treat[]” the platform “as the publisher or speaker” of that content, id. § 230(c)(1). Under the ordinary meaning of those terms, a platform thus is entitled to immunity with respect to a claim only if it is not com-
plicit in the creation or development of the allegedly harmful content the claim puts in issue, and only if the claim would impose liability on the platform for com-
municating the content to others. But a platform does not enjoy immunity when it has, for instance, solicited or encouraged the creation of illegal content, or when the suit is based on conduct other than publishing third-party content, such as completing particular transactions or participating in the supply chain.

Alone, moderation (including recommendation and deletion) of third-party content is not “creation or development of” the third-party content. In such cases, Section 230 applies unless the website participated in the development of the third-party content.

Paul says:

Re: Re: why?

Why should they be responsible for someone else’s speech simply because they prevented another’s? If I host a pro-Harry Potter site, I shouldn’t be held responsible for someone else’s speech simply because I banned someone for continually posting the Communist Manifesto in every thread. I chose an outlandish example to put in contrast the whole idea that banning one thing doesn’t make you responsible for others. Curating is not editorializing. If I kick you out of my house because I don’t like you, I’m not suddenly responsible if one guest murders another.

SJoelKatz (profile) says:

Re: Re: Definitely not

We seriously need to address that if you allow one view point, but band the other viewpoint (say, anyone “misgendering” someone, whatever you think that means) then you are editorializing that content and should be responsible for it. You went from “a bunch of people saying stuff” to a particular, controlled, message, cuz you straight up didn’t allow anything else.

The problem is that there isn’t just one “other viewpoint”. There’s an unlimited number of them, some ridiculous. Such a rule would make topicality, the main thing communities organize around, nearly impossible.

Suppose there’s a community that discusses fine points of Roman Catholic theology. Is the “other viewpoint” every Protestant theology? Is it atheism? Is it Satanism? Is it just other views on Roman Catholic theology?

Or can such a community simply not exist because having a community be about something is editorializing?

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Anonymous Coward says:

It’s very much a “blame the tool” type of argument.

We can’t “blame the tool” when someone does a criminal act, except, of course, when it’s a gun, then we should sue the gun manufacturers.

It’s great that the writers on this blog have sided with gun manufacturers instead of the anti-second amendment crowd.

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Rocky says:

Re:

Always funny when people don’t understand the difference between inflicting bodily harm by using a physical tool and words conveyed by a communications-tool.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Always funny when people don’t understand the difference between inflicting bodily harm by using a physical tool and words conveyed by a communications-tool.

So you’re disclaiming the ‘Silence is Violence’ and the ‘Speech is Violence’ crowd?

https://archive.discoversociety.org/2020/07/01/the-violence-of-silence/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/14/opinion/sunday/when-is-speech-violence.html

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:

I’m not disclaiming anything, it’s you who didn’t understand what I said.

Bodily harm inflicted by using a physical tool is one thing, hurtful words is something entirely different – because they hurt regardless if a tool is used or not. And we really want to split hairs, air is a medium which conveys hurtful words, let’s regulate that!

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

“It’s great that the writers on this blog have sided with gun manufacturers instead of the anti-second amendment crowd.”

Either with us or agin us?

It is not so cut and dried. For example, there are plenty of firearm owning folk who do not think juveniles should be running around armed. This does not fit your mold.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Of course it’s a get-out-of-jail-free card for any distributor liability (republication, which is done by the search engine and not the original publisher).

Another loophole that the Florida law covers is that anonymous speech has a presumption of falsehood. Better would be a presumption that one is the publisher or original speaker unless they can affirm the identity of the alleged thirt party, or you could have people quoting their own sock-puppets to avoid liability.

These obvious problems with the law manifest in doxing/terrorist websites whose owners have admitted they wouldn’t exist without 230. Suicides, harassment, threats, “cancellation,” and god knows what else are all enabled by this law.

Snarky language won’t change the reality that will keep surfacing until the law is modified. The Florida legislation preserves 230 while protecting the reputation of individuals. Odd that so many who claim to want both things don’t like this idea all of a sudden.

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Rocky says:

Re:

Another loophole that the Florida law covers is that anonymous speech has a presumption of falsehood.

I presume all you just said is a falsehood. Now bugger off you liar.

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That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

NYT runs yet another Anti-Trans opinion piece and someone ends up murdered… so the correct person to sue is the NYT right?

You’re making that motorboat sound again….

Banks can sue the maker of the car the robbers drove away in right?

Other than the patent office, I have never ever seen such delusion that adding “on the internet” somehow changes things so drastically.

Google didn’t make the ISIS videos.
Google didn’t force people to watch them.
When they are reported Google removes them.
But because Google has lots of money and its “on the internet” so magically it has to be their fault.

I mean I would absolutely love to bankrupt the various groups screaming all teh gays are groomers that have lead to property damage & attacks, but the only people responsible are the dipshits who took the actions.

About the prior idiot, is this the same FL that is changing the law to say that if you suggest someone is anti-lbgtq+ is defamation, no need for a trial, no need for a court, and they can bankrupt the people who offer up an opinion that DeathSantis hates gay people for profit.
“cancellation” – No the dildo of consequences rarely arrives lubed, there isn’t some magic button that cancels them… their own actions screw themselves, but its easier to pretend that they are the victim of the all powerful left….

If we had the power to cancel things cancelling some has been actor with a shitty opinion would be way fucking far down the list.

But then they have gone back to claiming they were teaching kids how to summon satan at the grammys & witches used magic to make them sick…

Something something mental healthcare very lacking…

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re:

NYT runs yet another Anti-Trans opinion piece and someone ends up murdered… so the correct person to sue is the NYT right?

Citation needed. Also, a proof of causation, not correlation. (not that correlation is even possible with a single data point but it sure sounds like you’re trying)

HotHead says:

Re: Re: Misunderstanding

That Anonymous Coward was raising hypotheticals. The one about a murder allegedly linked to an NYT anti-trans article is similar to the actual case Gonzalez v Google. The family of the murder victim is trying to go after a website (NYT in the hypothetical, Google in the real case) which isn’t even related to the murder weapon instead of relying on law enforcement to go after the murderer.

Note: The NYT hypothetical has nothing to do with Section 230. In the real Gonzalez case, Google should be additionally free from liability because the complaint is about Google’s algorithmic recommendations.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Ask Julia Angwin why big tech should be tasked with policing society, as that is what he proposal leads to.

Sasquatch says:

Re: Wrong question

Ms. Angwin is right, you’re asking the wrong thing. Big Tech already policing society, that’s the problem. They begged for Article 230 on the premise that they were a platform, not a publisher. They claimed they were incapable of exercising editorial control. But they exercise editorial control every day. They scan every video that gets uploaded and analyze the content. If you talk about the climate, your video will get a “context” banner under it with a link to wikipedia to explain the right-think on the subject. Perfectly legal content is banned completely, you can’t show certain things on gun channels; some things you can’t even talk about. YouTube completely ignores “fair use” and drops videos at any complaint. They aren’t abiding their side of Article 230, so why should they be protected by it?

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Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Calling it here…

To me, the New York Times is officially the J.K. Rowling of newspapers, apart from literally defending the author herself. As in it used to stand for a greater cause (in this case, being one of the lead newspapers to expose Trump and the Republicans for what monsters they are), but is willing to piss away that legacy because it doesn’t want to recognize the T in the LGBT. And the NYT keeps doubling down on those problematic issues, including the bizarre refusal to acknowledge section 230 as a law that’s fine as is.

Honestly this particular fall from grace is painful to watch.

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Thad (profile) says:

Re:

No, fuck that. The NYT’s abysmal coverage of trans issues isn’t some fresh decline to a previously-respectable newspaper, any more than Tom Cotton advocating for the military to murder protesters, Judith Miller‘s lies about Iraqi WMDs, Bret Stephens’ various tantrums, or its ban on using the word “gay” was. Or that time in 1922 when they assured readers Hitler wasn’t really that antisemitic.

The New York Times has done some excellent journalism in its time, and put its money where its mouth was in famous First Amendment cases like NYT v Sullivan and NYT v US. But it’s also done some legitimately terrible journalism, for over a century — The New Republic was calling it on its bullshit all the way back in 1920.

This thing you’re doing, waxing nostalgic about the Good Old Days of the New York Times — that’s the problem! This reputation that the Times is the Paper of Record and deserves special deference that other news sources don’t — that’s the problem!

It’s a news source, like any other — better than some, worse than others, fallible and imperfect and deserving of skepticism, criticism, critical thinking, and independent verification, no matter what its claims are.

Stop putting it on a fucking pedestal. That’s exactly what makes its falsehoods, from the case for the Iraq war to the case against healthcare for trans people, so dangerous.

See also: The New York Times is the Problem, Oliver Willis.

Cat_Daddy (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Jesus Christ, I’m sorry dude. I didn’t mean to sound reverent or anything. The stuff you mentioned is all new to me. I was giving them credit where credit was due. But the Anti-Trans stance is the final nail for me. I didn’t mean to offend you.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

So hey, look, NYT is far too left-wing, but The New Republic is legitimately evil.

I just want to say that nothing you just said is true and ALL your opinions should get fucked.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I don’t follow how you got from what Thad wrote to what you wrote. What did you think Thad’s opinion was? Thad never called the New York Times too left-wing or too right-wing nor declared The New Republic good or evil.

Anonymous Coward says:

I cant wait for her piece on how guns are fine even if they weren’t engineered with a mechanism to prevent them being fired at people, and how they are extra liable when someone manages to circumvent those countermeasures…

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'Just saying, if anyone wanted to attack 230 we'll publish it...'

But that hasn’t stopped the Times from repeatedly running stories and opinion pieces that simply get Section 230’s basic fundamentals wrong.

Once might be a coincidence.
Twice is suspicious.
Three times is a pattern.

At this point I’d say it’s pretty clear that the plethora of anti-230 hitpieces are very much on purpose and the NY Times knows exactly what’s its doing by publishing them.

As for the article in question the steak of ‘There are no honest or factual arguments against 230’ remains unbroken I see, with both showing up here.

Gut 230 and ‘Big Tech’ will not be hurting they will be celebrating because unlike the smaller platforms that competed with them and would be gutted if they tried to moderate or destroyed if they took the safer route and didn’t moderate the larger platforms do have the resources to deal with the resulting lawsuits from either option, making gutting 230 to ‘get Big Tech’ a textbook case of ‘please don’t throw me into the briar patch Mr. Regulators.’

As for the attempt to dodge the massive first amendment problem ‘we’re not going after speech we’re going after conduct that would not have happened without that speech’ is so terrible I struggle to imagine how someone who’s apparently a respected journalist could have come up with it. If a site can be punished for conduct that results from the speech they host then they are being punished for that speech and ‘incentivized’ to remove it.

Drew Wilson (user link) says:

Re: Newspapers v "Big Tech"

It was always weird to me that large media outlets have basically turned on Google and Facebook (which they always roll into the “Big Tech” category). The only thing that I can ever think of when it comes to this antagonistic relationship is idea that media outlets have a REALLY short memory.

In the past, as the internet grew to mainstream popularity, news outlets started seeing an erosion in their audiences. It wasn’t a fatal problem yet because they were still riding their waves of success from earlier times like the 90’s, 80’s, 70’s, etc. So, they tried to pretend that the internet was just a fad that would eventually die out on its own and the status quo of everyone turning to them for news would be restored.

That didn’t happen.

Luckily for news outlets (at least, those with a properly functioning website), those “Big Tech” players threw news outlets a lifeline as they were in the process of drowning. They started creating free services like Google News while Facebook happily let those news outlets utilize their huge amounts of traffic to get eyeballs to their sites. As a result, news outlets ended up relying more and more on the importance of the web as they were still drawing in eyes to their product. This happened, in large part, because the larger platforms were willing to allow links to them be shared or automatically posted to their services.

Now, suddenly, “Big Tech” is the root of all evil that must be excised from society in the eyes of these big publishers. One way is to try and destroy Section 230 protections that helped to make the internet functional. (this coupled with link taxes which is its own debate entirely, but not exactly relevant to the article above.)

I mean, when you are drowning, then someone goes up to you in a boat and throws you a life line, you don’t thank the boat driver by trying to punch holes in that boat. You sink along with them. If media outlets are successful in killing off Section 230, those services risk closing down for good. There won’t be anyone to swoop in domestically to save the day. The audience to your site is going to dry up because services are no longer going to be able to send you traffic. You can believe all you want that your website is different and won’t hurt from this, but that is just not what is going to happen.

This is not to say sites like Google or Facebook are perfect in every way. They’ve done a lot of sketchy stuff that makes me annoyed at them. The problem is, killing off Section 230 is not even close to a coherent solution to any of those problems. You are just opening up the entire country to being dependent on non-US services to fill those gaps.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I suspect that the thinking is roughly as follows:

Before the internet and open platforms the only source of information was newspapers and/or news tv stations, so if someone wanted to know what was going on it was from newspapers/tv or not at all, and if anyone wanted to correct them they’d have to go through them to do so.

With online and open platforms however anyone can report on anything, and fact-check in real or near real time, so not only do people not have to keep coming to newspapers for their news when they screw up everyone is able to find that out.

If however online platforms are forced to shut down entirely, block third-party content and/or only accept content from ‘validated’ sources because leaving them open became a huge legal risk then suddenly those platforms are a lot less useful for the transmission of news and ideas as once more the only people able to speak will be those with power, like say those running major papers or tv channels.

Anonymous Coward says:

That Supreme Court case right now I think has more to do with States Rights.

Some states don’t like the fact that 230 prevents them from enforcing state laws.

I cold see 230 continue to apply to federal laws, but I could see SCOTUS deciding that it cannot be applied to state laws.

And we do have a SCOTUS that is very states rights.

They have already said states can outlaw abortion and threw out the blanket federal ban on internet gambling, leaving that to the the states to regulate.

One problem is that states start requiring content to be blocked, offshore VPN providers will see a lot more business.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Some states don’t like the fact that 230 prevents them from enforcing state laws.

Those states can go pound sand. If they want to create an intrastate intranet, that’s their business⁠—but they shouldn’t get the right to determine whether their citizens can use the Internet exactly as they’re using it right now.

HotHead says:

Re:

Mike already pointed out that the current cases (Gonzalez v. Google and Twitter v. Taamneh) are not the ones about states’ rights. But even in the cases about states’ rights, here’s a reminder of the Tenth Amendment (emphasis mine):

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

The First Amendment prohibits states from restricting speech by default.

Paul says:

Re:

No legal state law can be inhibited by section 230 as it’s simply a “I claim freedom of speech as a shortcut out of this lawsuit.” It just makes it cheaper to maintain your freedom of speech. It does not change who is culpable.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re:

!) Mastodon isn’t a real place.

2) you seem to be intent on attacking NYT as too right wing, which I find really fucking hilarious.

That Anonymous Coward (profile) says:

Re: Re:

1 – Next you’ll tell me that Nigerian Price isn’t sending me billions. Mastodon is a real place.

2 – Really that was your take away from what I pointed out?
I thought I was pointing out how they keep taking positions that make no fscking sense, trying to convince people reality is different from what it is, and expecting people to bow down because they have this great reputation…

I might know a thing or 4 about having a reputation & actually having to work to keep it.
I’m an evil super hacker according to some people who needed to try to destroy my reputation to discredit me, but the facts say I am not a super hacker & I am well aware that doing stupid shit would shatter my reputation so I avoid the stupid shit & call out the stupid shit.
It takes work to keep a reputation, and the NYT has done hugely stupid shit over & over and it might be time to ask why they are allowed to rest on their reputation when they keep destroying it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Rocky says:

Re:

The opinion piece is by Marc Ginsberg and the blurb at the top says:
Former Amb. Marc Ginsberg is the founder and president of the Coalition for a Safer Web, a non-profit organization whose mission is dedicated to developing technologies and policies to expedite the permanent de-platforming of hate and extremist incitement on social media platforms. The views expressed in this commentary are his own.

Further down in the opinion this little nugget shows up:
During Tuesday’s questioning, the justices directed a considerable amount of attention to the extent to which “targeted recommendations” turn social media platforms from neutral, public spaces to publishers of potentially harmful content.

Oh, look! “Neutral, public spaces” and “publishers”. Where have heard those talking points before. Someone paraphrased what the Justices said with a vengeance.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

I think they’re referring to asshats like our troll brigade referring to Twitter and the like as public forums and saying they’re supposed to be “neutral” towards all legally protected speech (read: towards conservative opinions⁠—you know the ones) as a result.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re:

You’d have thought that a publisher so often inaccurately labelled as being politically biased would think twice before repeating the “neutral” nonsense. But, opinion pages are what they are and not always indications of the views of the overall editorial content.

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