No Immunity For Cops Who Shot Man Multiple Times, Then Searched His House For Evidence Of ‘Assaulting An Officer’

from the CYA-failure dept

There are plenty of valid reasons to seek a search warrant. Investigating a crime you can’t punish anyone for (because you’ve killed them) isn’t one of them.

That’s the upshot of this recent federal court decision — one that will no doubt be appealed to the Fifth Circuit Appeals Court to see if the cop-friendly judges can’t give back the immunity these officers definitely didn’t earn.

This decision [PDF] deals with the killing of Miguel Nevarez by Louisiana law enforcement officers in October 2020. Officer Walter Tenney of the Houma PD was investigating reports of gunshots in Nevarez’s neighborhood. He approached Nevarez, who was sitting in his car, which was parked in his driveway. Tenney tried to engage Nevarez in a conversation but Nevarez refused.

Then this happened:

Plaintiffs allege that Tenney, “without any basis in fact,” reported that Mr. Nevarez possibly had a gun in his car. Tenney and other officers further reported that Mr. Nevarez had “barricaded” himself in his vehicle. Plaintiffs represent that, at this point, the officers “continued to escalate the situation” by blocking off the surrounding streets, and calling for additional backup, which resulted in nearly fifty officers from HPD and TPSO [Terrebonne Parish Sheriff’s Office] arriving at the scene.

If escalation is the first move, confrontations like these tend to end in violence. Officers prevented the Nevarez’s wife, Julie, from approaching the house. Miguel tried to call her but Lt. Travis Theriot seized her phone, preventing her from answering his call. Roughly ninety minutes later, Nevarez exited the car and ran towards his house. This run ended in a hail of cop gunfire, ending his life.

In an effort to stop Mr. Nevarez, Officer Theriot allegedly shot at Mr. Nevarez with his 40 mm “impact munition,” and Officer Tenney attempted to tase him. Mr. Nevarez allegedly stumbled but regained his footing and began to run toward the front corner of his house, at which point, according to defendants, Mr. Nevarez “raised a gun towards [HPD Officer] Bolgiano.” Plaintiffs dispute that Mr. Nevarez raised a gun towards Bolgiano. Allegedly in response, Bolgiano fired at Mr. Nevarez as he emerged from the west side of the yard. Several other defendants also reported firing on Mr. Nevarez, and plaintiffs assert that
Mr. Nevarez was ultimately shot at approximately 20 times.

The Louisiana State Police stepped in to investigate the shooting. For reasons only known to State Police, Troopers Justin Leonard and Anthony Leonard sought warrants to search Miguel Nevarez’s house, car, and Ms. Nevarez’s cell phone. While there may have been valid reasons to search the scene of the possible crime (the killing of Nevarez by officers), there was no valid reason given for these searches, which the troopers stated in their affidavits was to investigate “aggravated assault upon a peace officer.”

That’s a big problem. The person suspected of this crime was dead, which means there was no continuing investigation into this crime because there was no prosecution to pursue. That means there’s no probable cause to support these warrants, something the troopers should have known. As the plaintiffs argued, these warrants served no valid law enforcement purpose. Instead, they appear to have been obtained to serve an extremely invalid law enforcement end.

In particular, plaintiffs emphasize that no one “still living—let alone residing in the home—had anything to do with” the alleged crime underlying the warrants, and that law enforcement could not “charge [Mr. Naverez] with a crime posthumously, obviating the need for such evidence.” Plaintiffs also reiterate their allegations from the last version of their complaint about the affirmative misrepresentations contained in defendants’ affidavits. The thrust of plaintiffs’ claims is that defendants obtained warrants to search for information “supporting a defensive narrative to retroactively justify the excessive use of force” that resulted in Mr. Nevarez’s death and to intimidate his family rather than to seek evidence of Mr. Nevarez’s alleged crime.

The court agrees with the plaintiffs.

In light of the fact that the affidavits make clear that Mr. Nevarez died during the altercation with the police, and the affidavits do not include any information that suggests that others may have been involved with the alleged assault on a peace officer, the Court finds that the warrants do not support a finding of probable cause.

Anyone who isn’t a cop probably thinks this sounds bad. But there’s always qualified immunity and/or the good faith exception. The first assumes most cops are idiots and can’t possibly know what might violate rights until it’s clearly and repeatedly established. The second assumes most cops are idiots and will participate in illegal searches simply because some magistrate they woke up with a phone call didn’t bother reading all the boilerplate before signing off on warrants not backed by probable cause.

Either way, the dumber the violation, the more likely it is that cops will be given a free pass. Not here, though. And that’s a call this court makes even though there’s no precedent exactly on point.

Nothing in the warrant affidavits indicates that others were involved in Mr. Nevarez’s alleged crime, nor do the affidavits give any indication that the crime could be ongoing. Much like the officer in Coopshaw who applied for a warrant “essentially to find out what happened,” defendants concede in their motion to dismiss that they applied for the warrants to “investigat[e] the events which unfolded on the night of the incident which necessitated the use of force.”

They do not dispute that Mr. Nevarez could not be posthumously charged of a crime, nor do they contend they were actively investigating anyone else in connection with the alleged assault on a peace officer. Plaintiffs have plausibly alleged that here, as in Coopshaw, law enforcement secured the warrants to uncover exculpatory evidence they could use to defend their own use of force.

No immunity. All of this is clearly established, even if case law doesn’t present a binding opinion dealing with officers investigating crimes that couldn’t be prosecuted.

The Court finds that defendants are not entitled to dismissal on the basis of qualified immunity. The Fourth Amendment right that plaintiffs contend defendants violated—to be free from a search pursuant to a warrant that, on its face, was “so lacking in indicia of probable cause as to render official belief in its existence unreasonable,” Malley, 475 U.S. at 344-45—was clearly established at the time defendants submitted their warrant affidavits.

[…]

A reasonable officer would understand that there is no probable cause to support a search warrant where, as here, the police were investigating their own use of force rather than pursuing an active criminal investigation.

That last paragraph isn’t the court speculating about the troopers’ true motives. The State Police were called in to investigate a shooting by officers, not investigate the person they killed. The fact that the troopers decided to frame their warrant requests this way strongly suggests what the plaintiffs have alleged: they were more interested in exonerating the involved officers than investigating them. And that means they can’t walk away from this lawsuit… at least for the moment.

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Comments on “No Immunity For Cops Who Shot Man Multiple Times, Then Searched His House For Evidence Of ‘Assaulting An Officer’”

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David says:

Re:

I can’t wait to see how the right wing trolls justify the killing of a man sitting in his own car

“Miguel Nevarez” does not sound like the individual’s skin was light enough to be considered human.

So the justification will be of the usual “don’t die if you are not guilty” kind.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Everything is racist

“Miguel Nevarez” does not sound like the individual’s skin was light enough to be considered human.

Of course the shooting was racist. I have yet to find anything that is not racist including “sunshine”. Maybe you could help me out. Simply Google anything and ask “is XXXXXXX racist” and I’ll bet you’ll find an article attributing it to racism.

Is ‘Sunshine’ a racist word? — Digital Spy
https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/1637230/is-sunshine-a-racist-word

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

One of the problems with free speech combined with the internet, is that a lot of people say stupid things and it’s easy to find people saying stupid things on almost any subject.

The really stupid thing is trying to pretend that since some people misuse the term, then actual racism does not affect the lives of minorities who are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement.

As for your “evidence” here – you might wish to read articles and not just headlines. The actual post is not referring to sunshine as in the light that comes from the Earth’s sun. It’s the use of the word in a colloquial way common in the UK that was suspected to be dismissive of a prominent black personality instead of using a more openly offensive term. Also, it was a person asking if the term had racist connotations, not a person stating that it was racist.

In other words, it’s not what you claimed it was, and if you read what other people actually say instead of making up claims based on the first headlines you get from a Google search, you might find it easier to converse with people who understand what’s actually being said.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Try thinking and investigating for yourself.

I can’t wait to see how the right wing trolls justify the killing of a man sitting in his own car…

What they might say is “get out of an echo chamber and investigate for yourselves”.

Internal investigation clears Houma Police officers in fatal shooting during standoff (houmatoday.com)
https://www.houmatoday.com/story/news/2021/05/28/internal-investigation-clears-houma-police-officers-fatal-shooting-during-standoff/7465336002/

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Two former Pennsylvania judges who orchestrated a scheme to send children to for-profit jails in exchange for kickbacks were ordered to pay more than $200 million to hundreds of people they victimized in one of the worst judicial scandals in U.S. history.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/18/1118108084/michael-conahan-mark-ciavarella-kids-for-cash

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: the magistrate

Why is the magistrate not the one in trouble here. They issued the warrant!

The magistrate is almost certainly a judge, and is performing a judicial function. There is absolute immunity for judicial functions.

There is a plausible-sounding reason for this, even if there is not one for qualified immunity. The idea is that judges should not be at risk of being sued for decisions on the bench. Instead, you appeal the bad decisions, though some types of decisions are not appealable or effectively appealable.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: 100s of thousands of lawyers very happy

The magistrate is almost certainly a judge, and is performing a judicial function. There is absolute immunity for judicial functions.

Politicians, and judges, have absolute immunity but the police who enforce their orders do so at their own risk. We demand an urgent response from the police to dangerous situations with unknown facts. The police are already facing “one bullet from death and one mistake from prison” if they get the facts wrong, so let’s add lawsuits too and see how urgently they answer our calls.

I’m sure what your response is “if you don’t like it, don’t be a cop” and that’s what’s happening. Ironically those politicians and judges that have absolute immunity won’t need it because without the police their words are meaningless.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Aww, someone seems upset that the police are being held responsible for their actions~. Yes or no: Did Derek Chauvin going to jail really make you so mad that you’re now adamant on pushing for cops to have complete immunity for anything short of a premeditated homicide where both the premeditation and the homicide are caught on camera?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 I want to see everyone's rights protected.

Aww, someone seems upset that the police are being held responsible for their actions~. Yes or no: Did Derek Chauvin going to jail really make you so mad that you’re now adamant on pushing for cops to have complete immunity for anything short of a premeditated homicide where both the premeditation and the homicide are caught on camera?

I have no problem with Chauvin nor the five cops fired in Nashville being charged with murder. What I have is a perspective from the other side of the argument. You demand your rights and that’s great but without the police you have no law and without the law you have no rights. Despite lowered standards the police can’t fill their vacancies now. You don’t want cops that aren’t qualified to be anything else but cops. You want people who are willing to put their lives on the line to insure laws and rights are protected. Hundreds of thousands of cops do that every day but because people like you using Chauvin as the example they are demonized. Nobody in their right mind is going to be a police officer if they are dragged into court every time someone feels mistreated. Currently the way many cops view it is “one bullet from death and one mistake from prison” and now they want to add “one hurt feelings from bankruptcy”.

Doctors and nurses kill about 250 times more people in this country every year than the police do, start throwing them in jail every time someone dies or they make a mistake and see if we have fewer deaths or just fewer doctors and nurses.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

You demand your rights and that’s great but without the police you have no law and without the law you have no rights.

That sounds like a threat.

Despite lowered standards the police can’t fill their vacancies now.

Dude, the Supreme Court once ruled that police departments can refuse to hire people deemed too intelligent to serve. How much lower can the standards get if cops were already being recruited from a pool of people who were essentially deemed “stupid enough to be a cop”?

You don’t want cops that aren’t qualified to be anything else but cops. You want people who are willing to put their lives on the line to insure laws and rights are protected.

I also want people who understand the laws they’re supposed to uphold⁠—and also don’t go around hurting people (and that includes killing them) because they think the badge and the uniform is a Get Out of Jail Free card.

Currently the way many cops view it is “one bullet from death and one mistake from prison” and now they want to add “one hurt feelings from bankruptcy”.

If they don’t want to put themselves at risk, they can do one of two things: hang up the uniform or stop acting like brownshirt-wearing fascists.

Policing in this country has a bad reputation because the institution breeds corruption from within. It refuses accountability in all but the most extreme instances. It refuses to reform its training methods from the current “neighborhoods are war zones and everyone is an enemy combatant” status quo. It employes weasel-worded passive voice bullshit to blame a bullet for magically killing an innocent person all on its own just so the cop who fired that bullet never has to be held responsible for doing so. And that doesn’t even get into the long-acknowledged issue of white supremacists/openly avowed racists joining the force for what should seem like obvious reasons to even your intentionally ignorant ass.

Hiring more cops and pouring more money into better equipment and “retraining” isn’t going to do shit. The only way for the institution to redeem itself is to hold itself accountable for its own actions; the only way for people outside the institution to fix it is to hold it responsible for its misdeeds. The conviction of Derek Chauvin was a damn good start for the second half of that equation. I haven’t seen a goddamn thing done from anyone representing the first half.

I don’t think highly of policing for the same reason I don’t think highly of the Catholic Church: Neither institution has given me enough reason to think the institutional rot that has plagued⁠—and still plagues!⁠—both institutions will ever go away so long as they keep doing these self-serving/self-clearing “internal investigations” and commit to other such ways of insulating themselves from consequences. What sucks for you, bootlicker, is that you can’t give me a reason to think that’s changed because I read the fucking news.

Doctors and nurses kill about 250 times more people in this country every year than the police do

[citation really fucking needed because that sounds like some bullshit you made up to deflect attention away from cops who kill innocent people]

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Comparing getting a broken leg from a 2' fall versus a 20' fall

When a person goes to the doctor it’s because there’s already a problem, quite possibly serious, with their health.

When a cop encounters someone unless someone really screwed up who to call odds are good their health wasn’t overly problematic before that interaction.

Even taking their claim at face value if someone dies around a doctor that’s not overly surprising because they probably weren’t in great shape at the start of the interaction, whereas if someone dies around a cop odds are good it’s because of something said cop did.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 They need to be held accountable.

Cops kill around 1000-1200 people a year.

Doctors and nurses mistakes kill about 250,000 a year. My father and my sons-in-law’s father both died from medical mistakes. Everyone knows someone personally who died from a medical error. I personally don’t know anyone who died at the hands of a cop.

Doctors don’t have anyone pointing a gun at them, no suicide by doctor, and chances of the doctor surviving an office visit is much higher than a cop surviving a traffic stop.
Medical errors third-leading cause of death in America (cnbc.com)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-america.html

[sarcasm
If we just put doctors and nurses in prison, or eliminate the medical profession altogether then look at all the lives we would save.]end of sarcasm

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Again, if you feel that doctors and nurses have it so much easier, you’re more than welcome to whine about them in public. Get your son, your relatives to campaign against the medical profession. Really pile the pressure on.

But I suspect you won’t, because all you care about is getting angry about people who got angry about Chauvin.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

an office visit is much higher than a cop surviving a traffic stop.

You do realize that garbage collectors have a more dangerous job that cops don’t you?

Very few cops are killed as a percentage of all traffic stops, and somehow survive a traffic stop with an alarming hight rate then.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 I'll answer the rest of your shit later

Doctors and nurses kill about 250 times more people in this country every year than the police do

[citation really fucking needed because that sounds like some bullshit you made up to deflect attention away from cops who kill innocent people]

Your Health Care May Kill You: Medical Errors – PubMed (nih.gov)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28186008/

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

That sounds like a threat.

The funny thing is davec seems to believe in this instant that cops are the only thing standing in between you and your rights. Cops have already demonstrated countless times that it’s far from the case. If it’ll help them push an arrest or conviction they will run over your rights to a speedy trial, to an attorney, to record them with your cellphone, or even your right to oxygen if they happen to be in the mood.

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 too smart to be a cop

the Supreme Court once ruled that police departments can refuse to hire people deemed too intelligent to serve.

I would love to see the cite for that.

The closest thing I recall is Jordan v. City of New London, 2000 U.S. Lexis 22195 (US 2d Cir 2000), an unpublished opiion wherein a Federal intermediate appeals court affirmed a trial court summary judgment for a city, finding that a city could reasonably refuse to hire someone as a police officer because he was too smart.

Yes, it was the New London as in Kelo.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I have no problem with Chauvin nor the five cops fired in Nashville being charged with murder

An admission you made only after months of getting angry that people were celebrating his arrest and eventual conviction.

without the police you have no law and without the law you have no rights

This would be significant if the police generally concerned themselves with enforcing the law. The police, and courts in a few cases, have made it clear that the priority of the police isn’t knowing the law, it’s making arrests. Apologists like you have insisted that every moment the police spend making sure that they know the law is time wasted on letting lawbreakers get away, which is why so many of them get angry when civilians film them with mobile phones despite the act being completely legal.

people like you using Chauvin as the example they are demonized

Police and police apologists like you use criminals as the example of why civilians have to be treated like scum until their corpses prove otherwise.

Nobody in their right mind is going to be a police officer if they are dragged into court every time someone feels mistreated.

As it is, nobody in their right mind is going to cooperate with the police if they risk themselves getting gunned down every time the police feel slightly at risk from an unarmed driver.

start throwing them in jail every time someone dies or they make a mistake and see if we have fewer deaths or just fewer doctors and nurses

You first. Put your money where your mouth is or go back to screaming for Chauvin.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

now they want to add “one hurt feelings from bankruptcy”

Oh, don’t make me fucking laugh. Fines that are paid by the police is money that was already taken from taxpayers. And even that’s assuming that the police department has left police officers to fend for themselves, which in the climate of cops covering for each other, is rarely the case.

The few times cops haven’t been backed by their departments were cases where their conduct was so egregiously problematic, the cops were fired – and considering the general reluctance of police departments to fire anyone, that’s a rarity. In any other case the department would shrug, promise internal investigation, and cover the cop’s ass until the heat dies down.

This idea that cops can be suddenly rendered destitute as the result of a random druggie or thug screaming “I’m being oppressed” doesn’t pass the laugh test. The people you claim are roaming the streets contributing to crime stats are not the kind of people with the resources to drag out a war of legal attrition, against enforcers backed up by a like-minded and equipped team sponsored by the government. You are nowhere near a position where you can be bankrupted from a single solitary accusation. To argue otherwise is incredibly substandard fearmongering, even for you.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

The police are already facing “one bullet from death and one mistake from prison” if they get the facts wrong,

That’s US, davec.

As in, the rest of us.

And eventually, YOU.

Cops being responsible for their messes protects YOU in the long run. Unless you want to argue us dying from cops making “mistakes” is a net gain.

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Daydream says:

I took away two things from this:
One, not having a gun is not enough to protect you from attackers rationalising their actions by claiming you had a gun.
 
Second; if a cop pulls out their gun, they’re planning to kill you, and you should probably respond as you would if anyone else was trying to kill you and the police weren’t available.

ECA (profile) says:

Re:

Pull your camera, Yell for the public to WATCH.
Get in that car and start calling the NEWS.
If they shoot the windows, it SHOWS THEY DID IT, not you.

Would it be interesting to make killing a cop a Very BAD thing to do. But also take MOST of the guns away from the cops to SHOW they are PEACE OFFICERS, and intent isnt to KILL YOU.

Isnt it common knowledge, that you cant be prosecuted, for Anything after you are dead? You can find all the evidence you want but it cant be taken to court, AFTEr you are dead.

David says:

Re: Re:

That’s not how I read this post. I mean, the quote marks make pretty obvious that he is presenting the standard apologies while showing their absurdity.

But then surprisingly often when I try being sarcastic, it doesn’t reach the recipient. So my communication standards may be off, and my interpretation wrong.

And “they couldn’t possibly be that cynical” is not really a reliable diagnosis for pretty much anything in the U.S…

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That One Guy (profile) says:

'He was running away, that made him a deadly threat!'

It’s so very telling how the first instinct the state troopers had when investigating a situation where dozens of cops gunned down someone who was running away from them was to look for any evidence they could find to justify the murder, really shows you which lives they consider valuable and worthy of consideration.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Suicide by cop

It’s so very telling how the first instinct the state troopers had when investigating a situation where dozens of cops gunned down someone who was running away from them was to look for any evidence they could find to justify the murder, really shows you which lives they consider valuable and worthy of consideration.

Mr. Nevarez several times asked the police to kill him. He had a gun and had already fired it which was the basis for the initial response. So when he took off running and pointed the gun at the officer what was the officer to do, bet his life Mr. Nevarez wouldn’t pull the trigger? Many officers have young families and I know (from experience) their first thought is of their children and not wanting that child to grow up without them. No amount of lawsuit or prison time would prevent them from pulling that trigger so in the end you still have Mr. Nevarez dead.

You can argue for an unarmed response, but neither the fire department nor ambulance will enter an area of an active shooter.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Not the echo you wanted to hear?

Yes, yes, you think a cop’s only job is to get home safe

That isn’t their only job but if they have a family, that is their main job.

and anything they do while in uniform is justified.

No I don’t believe that. What I do believe is when you demonize and increase the risk of being a police officer, no one will do it.

We get it. Now go to some Blue Line group on Facebook so we don’t have to watch you lick boots.

Not the echo you were hoping for?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

That isn’t their only job but if they have a family, that is their main job.

Sounds like you think cops without a family shouldn’t care whether they live or die, then. How…sociopathic.

What I do believe is when you demonize and increase the risk of being a police officer, no one will do it.

Maybe the cops wouldn’t be demonized if they would stop killing people who aren’t a threat to anyone and violating various other laws because they believe (mostly rightfully, I should add) that their uniform and badge give them far more leeway to break the law without consequence. Also not helping: People like you making a three-course meal out of their shoe leather to make the institution of policing seem completely blameless for the problems of said institution.

Not the echo you were hoping for?

I was hoping for silence, you thin blue prick.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Not the echo you were hoping for?

Actually that was entirely what everyone here expected your incestuous power-tripping dumb ass to say.

I hold the position that if a gang of cops should ever kick your door down and shoot your wife dead, then defend themselves in court by claiming you own a firearm and that their actions are justified, you should be at peace with those cops being found innocent. Hell, if you want to be such a martyr for the police, you should get arrested for not cooperating with them enough.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If your entire point is to proudly declare that you’re being an obtuse contrarian for the sake of being so, don’t be surprised when nobody thinks you’ve achieved anything meaningful or are worthy of any response that rises above derision.

What you’re doing is being a man who barges into the ladies’ room with your pants around your ankles, then wondering why nobody is giving you a Nobel Prize for being the only one in the ladies’ room without a vagina.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

What you’re doing is being a man who barges into the ladies’ room with your pants around your ankles, then wondering why nobody is giving you a Nobel Prize for being the only one in the ladies’ room without a vagina.

I don’t know about that. Having read davec’s comments it’s very clear he’s nothing more than one giant pussy.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Without law enforcement you have no laws.

Pretty sure the laws would still be on the books even if all the cops quit today, champ. But we get it: You’re upset that cops are no longer given complete leeway to fuck up (or end!) people’s lives without consequence.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: 'If they don't have to follow the law why should I?'

If those tasked with upholding the law are the greatest violators of it throwing them out the door if anything is protecting the legal system by getting rid of those that would undermine it’s legitimacy, and once they’re out out the door then steps can be taken to rebuild that legitimacy, hopefully in a way where the laws and rights aren’t considered optional by the very people tasked with upholding them.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Who you gonna call?

Pretty sure the laws would still be on the books even if all the cops quit today, champ.

Yes they would be on the books and there they would stay. Without law enforcement, laws are only suggestions. In Michigan the law says you can get up to life imprisonment for adultery but since it isn’t enforced nobody cares.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: The Dark Ages

Civilization did just fine without professional law enforcement.

No it didn’t or we wouldn’t be spending billions of dollars every year to provide for our legal system. No one would have an army or a police force if they weren’t necessary.

And even in the Middle Ages, smaller groups of civilian guards.

I know history and the Middle Ages was not “just fine”. Only kings and nobility had any rights at all (because they could enforce them) and the serfs and peasants were at their mercy. The Dark Ages were the complete breakdown of law and order.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Only kings and nobility had any rights at all (because they could enforce them) and the serfs and peasants were at their mercy. The Dark Ages were the complete breakdown of law and order.

…Sadly, that’s not much different from the present, then.

But unfortunately for you, the Middle Ages still had SOME form of Law and Order.

THE COURTS. Oh, and the community.

That goes for Europe, China and even Africa and the Middle East.

It may not be as good as professianal “law enforcement”, but we’ll make do if need be.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Throw away the last 300 years of Western Civilization and see what happens.

But unfortunately for you, the Middle Ages still had SOME form of Law and Order.
THE COURTS. Oh, and the community.

Henry VIII was selected by God to be king so to not love him was a sin worthy of not only death but damnation as well. Law, order and treason were whatever the King said it was. Accusations were to fit the penalty rather than the reverse. Life was so oppressive that they had to keep creating more and more horrible ways of execution just to keep people in line.

That goes for Europe, China and even Africa and the Middle East.

You are right, Henry was the norm not the exception.

It may not be as good as professional “law enforcement”, but we’ll make do if need be.

Crips, Bloods, White militias, martial law, or just follow the CHAZ formula? Your choice?

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Henry VIII was selected by God to be king so to not love him was a sin worthy of not only death but damnation as well.

This the same Henry VIII, who chose to create his own church because he wanted to divorce and marry whoever he wanted?

I see that you not only have a deeply flawed reading of history, but one you also choose to not update yourself with.

Law, order and treason were whatever the King said it was.

So why did the historical record say that medieval ENGLAND had a body of law and courts, and JUDGES to hear cases, and eventually, SHERIFFS to enforce said body of law (with regards to taxes)?

This was evident in the 12th century.

I gave not even gone into how pre-CCP China did law enforcement…

Accusations were to fit the penalty rather than the reverse. Life was so oppressive that they had to keep creating more and more horrible ways of execution just to keep people in line.

No, that’s not how English law worked back then. Crimes were either solved communally or brought to the judge if he was in town.

Crips, Bloods, White militias, martial law, or just follow the CHAZ formula? Your choice?

First off, I’m finally impressed you mentioned CHOP.

And that’s when I say, law enforcement should not be left to mercernaries and they should have established a COURT instead.

Oh, and I’m sadly unsurprised you back the gang in blue as opposed to actual criminal gangs.

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Mike Masnick (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Without law enforcement you have no laws. Without laws you have no civilization.

This is not just ahistorical, but laughably wrong.

You can enforce laws without arming cops like they’re the fucking military, and you can enforce the law without cops.

And, there are tons of civilizations that have done just fine without cops.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: What next, accountablity for their actions?

You can enforce laws without arming cops like they’re the fucking military, and you can enforce the law without cops.

Wait wait wait, do you mean to tell me that there are police forces out there that aren’t armed and trained as though they’re in a gorram active warzone? And that despite that they don’t all die on the first day of the job despite the fact that you need both that gear and that mindset if you don’t want to be riddled with bullets?

Mind blown.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Sorry about your mind.

Wait wait wait, do you mean to tell me that there are police forces out there that aren’t armed and trained as though they’re in a gorram active warzone? And that despite that they don’t all die on the first day of the job despite the fact that you need both that gear and that mindset if you don’t want to be riddled with bullets?
Mind blown.

While I wish we had far fewer guns, that is not the case and the guns have just gotten deadlier. Glock switches and auto sears have turned legal guns into machine guns. Gang members, gun nuts, druggies and just plain nuts have all used them. Hardly a day goes by without a mass shooting in the US. We are definitely headed in the wrong direction, but disarming the police won’t change that. Even in extremely law abiding countries like Switzerland the cops have started carrying guns.
Most cops in the US carry concealed weapons off duty. The officer who was killed on his first day was killed by an “associate” of someone he arrested earlier in the day.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Gang members, gun nuts, druggies and just plain nuts have all used them.

But apparently despite being armed to the bloody teeth, all of those guns you want the police to have didn’t seem to empower them enough to find the Uvalde shooter without an hour-long delay.

The officer who was killed on his first day was killed by an “associate” of someone he arrested earlier in the day.

My guy, you cannot expect people to sympathize with every single offhand anecdote you vaguely remember your son-in-law talking about without any other context. I could just as easily yank a story about all my relatives who were killed by cops and expect you to believe me. But I don’t, because I’m not a self-absorbed psychopath like you.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

This is not just ahistorical, but laughably wrong.

Really? What civilizations were governed without rules and regulations? What happened to those people who broke those rules and regulations? Who decided their punishment and who carried it out?
The Greeks, the Romans, the Hebrews and every major civilization had laws that were enforced, often brutally. Feudalism was practiced around the world for thousands of years.
If you are considering primitive tribes as your “tons of civilizations” murder and rape were often ignored or punished by the victim’s family.
I previously gave an example. Michigan has a law against murder and a law against adultery and both are punishable by life in prison. Nobody enforces the law against adultery so it is ignored.

You can enforce laws without arming cops like they’re the fucking military, and you can enforce the law without cops.

Yes you can enforce the law without cops as long as everyone cooperates. Unfortunately that is not always the case and in a country where there are more guns than people the police have to be prepared for anything.

And, there are tons of civilizations that have done just fine without cops.

CHAZ in Seattle was an example of a civilization that failed, can you give me an example of one that succeeded?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

CHAZ in Seattle was an example of a civilization that failed, can you give me an example of one that succeeded?

CHOP wasn’t even meant to last that long.

Also, what was, “5000+ years of Chinese civilization”? The Ancient Egyptians?

Is your head so far up your ass you can’t even see your own argument unravelling with a cursory Google search? I mean, “bring that shit up to a local judge or court” was at least recognized back then.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

CHOP wasn’t even meant to last that long.

You’re right. It lasted a little longer than most people expected and then the inevitable happened.

Also, what was, “5000+ years of Chinese civilization”? The Ancient Egyptians?

Did you mean this?
Traditional Chinese law – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_law

This was a feudal system that enforced its edicts often brutally.

Let me clarify what I’m saying. If everyone agrees and follows the law then there is no need for enforcement. That never happens. Murderers, rapist, thieves don’t always hand themselves over for punishment. In many cases they don’t stop until they’re stopped.

In California we have laws against shop lifting. Proposition 47 allowed people to steal up to $950.00 a day without being a felony. Then DA s said they wouldn’t prosecute misdemeanors. So guess what, if you’re not going to enforce the law against stealing it doesn’t exist and people were going into stores with calculators to insure they didn’t break the $950 limit. The result made international news so I hope your head is far enough out of your ass that you heard about it (but I doubt it).

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

In California we have laws against shop lifting. Proposition 47 allowed people to steal up to $950.00 a day without being a felony. Then DA s said they wouldn’t prosecute misdemeanors. So guess what, if you’re not going to enforce the law against stealing it doesn’t exist and people were going into stores with calculators to insure they didn’t break the $950 limit. The result made international news so I hope your head is far enough out of your ass that you heard about it

fucking

WHAT

ahahahahahaha holy shit you sound like a deranged alt-right Facebook user, holy fucking shit, get a load of this nutsack

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I’d also like to add that Prop 47 was not deemed newsworthy enough to be reported in Singapore, and that a cursory Google search (up to page 10) showed mostly AMERICAN sources.

I know I don’t keep up with the propaganda masquerading as international news in my own country but if I don’t see a Reuters article at least in 10 pages….

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Stone? Yep, nothing dummer than a rock.

Here’s Why San Francisco is Experiencing a Shoplifting Surge That’s Putting Some Stores Out of Business – Foundation for Economic Education (fee.org)
https://fee.org/articles/why-san-francisco-is-experiencing-a-shoplifting-surge-that-s-putting-some-stores-out-of-business/?gclid=CjwKCAiAioifBhAXEiwApzCztq77cOqZZUYPEyUOwtelc0D3HCJxlUpyqKTzjDcRuWV1rpFXkLkaXxoCb1YQAvD_BwE

After San Francisco shoplifting video goes viral, officials argue thefts aren’t rampant (nbcnews.com)
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/after-san-francisco-shoplifting-video-goes-viral-officials-argue-thefts-n1273848

Shoplifting Statistics (2022) – Deep Sentinel
https://www.deepsentinel.com/blogs/shoplifting-statistics-2022/

Shoplifting is surging across America with dangerous and costly consequences | CNN Business
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/07/business/retail-theft-shoplifting-robbery/index.html

US store owners are worried about shoplifting – what can be done? | US small business | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/06/shoplifting-store-owners-small-businesses-gene-marks
What all that stealing says about America (yahoo.com)

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/what-all-that-stealing-says-about-america-120048324.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEzelsD5iHq4Cjy_6Vf0kNOucR0P7rrD47AX57vlwZXDsIMO0DDO1as8ykRByUcDK5Qbd8mahkD0lqSKd7jcQDSqsCmwUCFZkCPoJd9EuP0TIGlIuT9RyfWsO95pr2jdH_QEtDT_jH0gS_fQzgKTXgMECIMdhkEWlLEUvIix88wG

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

If everyone agrees and follows the law then there is no need for enforcement. That never happens. Murderers, rapist, thieves don’t always hand themselves over for punishment. In many cases they don’t stop until they’re stopped.

And what do you think is going to happen in a system where people know that even with a lack of wrongdoing, a cop can still run up to them, riddle them with bullets, then claim qualified immunity and all the victim’s family can do is suck it up because of apologists like you?

If murderers, rapists and thieves can’t be expected to turn themselves in, why are we then obliged to assume that openly racist, trigger-happy cops deserve to be internally investigated and given all the benefit of the doubt, when it’s been proven until very recently that most of these cases get quietly covered up?

Proposition 47 allowed people to steal up to $950.00 a day without being a felony. Then DA s said they wouldn’t prosecute misdemeanors

Except no, that didn’t happen.

According to Alex Bastian, special advisor to Los Angeles District Attorney George Gascón who co-authored Prop 47, most shoplifting was already prosecuted as a misdemeanor anyway.

“What Prop 47 did is increase the dollar amount by which theft can be prosecuted as a felony from $400 to $950 to adjust for inflation and cost of living,” Bastian said. “But most shoplifting cases are under $400 dollars to begin with, so before Prop 47 and after Prop 47, there isn’t any difference.”

Proposition 47 was enacted to comply with a 2011 California Supreme Court order, which upheld that California’s overcrowded prisons violated incarcerated individuals’ Eighth Amendment rights against cruel and unusual punishment.

“In 2011, our prisons were bursting at the seams, and California was ranked either first or second behind Texas as having the highest per capita incarceration rate of any state in the country,” Kubrin said. “It was so bad that the Supreme Court stepped in and told us we needed to reduce our prison population by 33,000 individuals.”

“So the goal of Prop 47 was to limit our prison population, to reduce the number of people that we send to state prisons,” said Kubrin. “Prop 47 has achieved that goal while not causing crime rates to go up.”

Source(broken up so it hopefully doesn’t trigger the link filter): apnews .com/article/fact-checking-160551360299

Your rant would have made for pretty effective fearmongering as if the streets of California were now crawling with shoplifters if not for how easily debunked that claim was.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 If you know what it was like and what it is now, you’ll know we are headed in the wrong direction.

“So the goal of Prop 47 was to limit our prison population, to reduce the number of people that we send to state prisons,” said Kubrin. “Prop 47 has achieved that goal while not causing crime rates to go up.”

Your rant would have made for pretty effective fearmongering as if the streets of California were now crawling with shoplifters if not for how easily debunked that claim was.

I have lived in California for over 65 years and despite probably the greatest weather of any place in the world, people are getting out. My son has been a cop here for over 25 years and it has changed a lot. There used to be very little homelessness and most of that was due to alcoholism. Alcohol was legal, cheap and easily available so you didn’t need much more than a little panhandling to spend your life drunk. People didn’t seek help because they wanted to be drunk and it was easy to spend their whole day doing it. Between decriminalizing drug use and prop 47, homelessness has exploded here. Tent cities have popped up everywhere. They have made drug use easier than alcoholism so forget people needing to get help, they won’t even accept it when it’s offered. Human feces on the sidewalk, children can’t use the parks, open air drug dealing, in Portland Or. (they had similar laws) people couldn’t get to their doctors because the tents forced old people off the sidewalks and into the streets.

PS. things are changing. San Francisco (one of the most liberal cities in America) dumped their liberal DA and are now at least trying to restore order.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Between decriminalizing drug use and prop 47, homelessness has exploded here.

Yes, those are the only reasons for homelessness in California~. It surely has nothing to do with the economy and people losing jobs~. Nope, it’s all just drugs and Prop 47~.

(jesus, do you bootlickers ever stop to listen to yourselves, or do you just accept what cops say without question because it’s easier than admitting that capitalism is destroying everything)

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Stoned again

Yes, those are the only reasons for homelessness in California~. It surely has nothing to do with the economy and people losing jobs~. Nope, it’s all just drugs and Prop 47~.

People aren’t turning down help because the economy is bad or they lost their job—you idiot! They are turning it down because they want to live in Heroin Heaven and they can.

People are leaving California for lower paying jobs to live in safer and cleaner cities elsewhere.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

People aren’t turning down help because the economy is bad or they lost their job—you idiot! They are turning it down because they want to live in Heroin Heaven and they can.

How do you know, with the precise and unyielding certainty of God, that every homeless person in California is homeless only because of drugs?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Think about it.

How do you know, with the precise and unyielding certainty of God, that every homeless person in California is homeless only because of drugs?

Logic dictates that if you are living on the street in a tent, crapping on the sidewalk, not bathing for weeks, eating out of garbage cans and someone offers you a job, a place to live, new clothes and hot meals and you turn it down. There is something on the street you wanted more.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Again: How do you know, with the precise and unyielding certainty of God, that every homeless person in California is homeless only because of drugs?

And for further clarification: I’m not asking why people stay homeless. I’m asking why people become homeless. If you think that’s only because of drugs, you are deeply and hilariously mistaken on a level that comes off as intentional ignorance. (The same goes for why people stay homeless, too, but I’m more interested in the cause of homelessness rather than the effects thereof.)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Logic dictates that if you are living on the street in a tent, crapping on the sidewalk, not bathing for weeks, eating out of garbage cans and someone offers you a job, a place to live, new clothes and hot meals and you turn it down

The same could be said of prisons, and yet you don’t see people eagerly lining up to get their asses put in the hoosegow. It’s not as though access to contraband would necessarily be difficult either, there’s been enough reports about how in the worst of prisons, the wardens are often in on the racket. No, people don’t go to prison to have a stable life instead of living on the streets because prison fucking sucks. So here’s the question – how have you managed to get to a point where people refuse offered help?

It’s because you’ve proven that your system can’t be trusted to actually help. It’s the same reason why folks are increasingly apprehensive about turning to the cops for assistance. They don’t know if the cop will show up and peg them for the criminal and let loose a whole magazine of bullets into their abdomen. They don’t know if the cop will suddenly piss his pants and shoot the family pet or anything that moves, or stand outside a school for an hour while a gunman has free rein to murder classrooms of children in cold blood.

I guarantee you that all the affected families in Uvalde will be thinking twice, very hard, about the next time the police might need to be called in.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

They are turning it down because they want to live in Heroin Heaven and they can.

Except that no, your claim of decriminalizing drug use is debunked too. Heroin use is still very much illegal in California.

People are leaving California for lower paying jobs to live in safer and cleaner cities elsewhere.

Never mind that California has always had a problem with high rental and home ownership costs, and I’ll agree that people might be leaving California – you do realize that a lot of Silicon Valley companies just fired a lot of people? Is that supposed to be up to abuse of hard drugs?

The problem isn’t so much nobody is throwing criminals in prison, the problem – and the reason why your cops had to be told, maybe don’t arrest shoplifters stealing shit cheaper than a thousand bucks – is that you’re so fucking trigger happy to throw people in the slammer, you’ve already run out of real estate to do it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

So after being confronted that your “Nobody is prosecuting shoplifters” claim has been nothing but a weak joke by a comedian at best, your best response to that is “I don’t believe you”? I wish I could say I was surprised, but this is peak davec standards of argumentation right here.

You filled your own prisons to bursting, treat people like shit, and you think the best way of helping is asking “have you tried not being depressed”. You’re the guy in “Weird Al” Yankovic’s song “When I Was Your Age”, except you’re the literal guy who goes “Then he chopped me into pieces, and played frisbee with my brain/And lemme tell ya, junior, you never heard me complain” where Al was being ironic.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

This was a feudal system that enforced its edicts often brutally.

So the punishments were brutal. You DO realize that there are countries that still use the death penalty?

Still, Traditional Chinese Law does imply a form of civility. Something missing from American cops.

Mind you, I live in a country where there’s so much room for legal police brutality and abuse, with the blessings of the government, some of which is actually fucking law.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

And, there are tons of civilizations that have done just fine without cops.

And your one counter example does not disprove that statement.

Yes you can enforce the law without cops as long as everyone cooperates.

Like England up to 1822.

You know about the Internet, so why not use it for more general research, and risk having you mind changed.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 What would you like me to know.

Your post show that you have made zero effort to look up the history of policing and police, and note policing does not require a formal police force. Do you ever consider doing a cursory google search before posting, as you have the necessary tools at your fingertips.

My son has been in law enforcement for over 27 years, my daughter in law has over 30 years. My daughter has more than 15 years and her husband 20 years in law enforcement. I have been following policing, asking about policing, questioning policing, worrying about policing, debating about policing, asking cops questions, talking to their families, have been on ride-alongs, I’ve logged on to forums like this to see the other side, I Google about policing, I’ve followed BLM and read their viewpoint, I’ve seen what happens when you defund the police, I know about the different types of policing, I know the history and the evolution of policing, I know the difference between Traditional policing, Problem Oriented policing, Community Oriented policing, and Intelligence led policing.

I remember when a guy tried to stab you daughter in law and the impact it had on all of us. I have not fully inhaled or exhaled since my son was sworn in and I probably won’t until my daughter retires.

So what would you like me to know? What website are you referring to?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

what would you like me to know?

How about you learn the history of policing from before you were born, since you don’t seem to think that history matters unless it shows the Thin Blue Line in a good light. For starters, go look up how modern U.S. policing has roots in slave patrols.

You may also want to learn about the militarization of U.S. police departments and the military-style “war zone” training that plenty of police departments around the country still use.

Basically, if something is telling you that cops aren’t perfect, you may want to listen to that over your overwhelmingly pro-cop bias.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

How about you learn the history of policing from before you were born, since you don’t seem to think that history matters unless it shows the Thin Blue Line in a good light.

Do you mean like the constables, and sheriffs back in a time before phones, radios and automobiles? When you needed help you had to go find the constable and tell him what you wanted and he would get to it when he could. At least the constable could count on days if not weeks or months of de-escalation.

When my son was on patrol he went from one call to another all night long and he was just one of 35 on his shift. Imagine one constable answering a burglary call, a fatal car crash, a rape, two robberies, a stabbing, a barking dog, a bar fight, 5 domestic violence calls, a lost child, a possible shots fired, 2 loud parties, 3 assaults, 2 ODs, 3 wellness checks and all before lunch. I think he would need some help and some of those people would need training and equipment to help him. People would need to know who those people were, maybe give them badges and uniforms. Once you have the constables helpers trained, vetted and equipped you might think about offering them a permanent position—oops that’s a police department.

For starters, go look up how modern U.S. policing has roots in slave patrols.

There are people who pride themselves on being able to link everything to racism. I have yet to Google anything that has not been linked to racism so of course that would include policing. I’m not saying it isn’t and never was racist, I’m saying it never will be as long as long as we allow EVERYTHING to be called racist.
The Problem with Claiming That Policing Evolved from Slave Patrols | American Enterprise Institute – AEI
https://www.aei.org/op-eds/the-problem-with-claiming-that-policing-evolved-from-slave-patrols/

You may also want to learn about the militarization of U.S. police departments and the military-style “war zone” training that plenty of police departments around the country still use.

Police officers used to be big burley men that you didn’t mess with unless you were one. Now they include smaller men, women, and people who have never been in a fight in their lives. Flight in the fight or flight reflex must be overcome and that is done with a lot of self-defense training and equipment drills.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

my son

In the context of your arguments: I don’t give a good god’s damn about your son. Using him as a shield⁠—as if his experiences are universal and applicable to everywhere in the country, if not the world⁠—only worsens any chance I might have of respecting your arguments.

I’m not saying it isn’t and never was racist, I’m saying it never will be

…fucking what

American Enterprise Institute

When I want accurate information about American history and policing, I know that the first place I should look is the website of a right-wing think tank~.

Police officers used to be big burley men that you didn’t mess with unless you were one. Now they include smaller men, women, and people who have never been in a fight in their lives. Flight in the fight or flight reflex must be overcome and that is done with a lot of self-defense training and equipment drills.

Yes or no: Should that training include training officers to see everyday citizens as “potential enemy combatants”, the streets as “potential war zones”, and the job of policing as an actual goddamn war? Also yes or no: Should the equipment used by police include equipment that was made specifically for the purpose of use in actual war zones (e.g., MRAPs), even when a given police department would otherwise have no use for such equipment? And if you answer “yes” to both of those questions: What does it say about your outlook on life if you’re willing to say the U.S. is an actual war zone and the cops should essentially be a domestic military force?

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

In the context of your arguments: I don’t give a good god’s damn about your son.

I know you don’t. You’re like any other bigot, you dehumanize those you object to.

Yes or no: Should that training include training officers to see everyday citizens as “potential enemy combatants”, the streets as “potential war zones”, and the job of policing as an actual goddamn war?

No and it doesn’t. This is a list of the classes from my sons departments training class
• Officer Safety
• De-escalation training
• Police Officer Ethics
• Cultural Diversity/Discrimination
• Procedural Justice/Implicit Bias Training
• Laws Pertaining to Search and Seizure
• Criminal Investigations
• Emergency Vehicle Driving
• Vehicle Car Stops
• Report Writing
• Crime Scene Management
• Principled Policing in the Community
• Firearms Training
• Accident Investigation
• Building Searches
• Less-Than-Lethal Force Options
• Defensive Tactics
• Arrest and Control Techniques
• Radio Communication Codes
• Recognition of Illegal Substances and Narcotics
• Recognition of Under the Influence
• Evidence Collection
• Juvenile Laws

Also yes or no: Should the equipment used by police include equipment that was made specifically for the purpose of use in actual war zones (e.g., MRAPs), even when a given police department would otherwise have no use for such equipment?

Yes. If SWAT units are sent to active shooter or terrorist calls they certainly would be handy.

What does it say about your outlook on life if you’re willing to say the U.S. is an actual war zone and the cops should essentially be a domestic military force?

It says I remember the North Hollywood shoot out.
North Hollywood shootout – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You’re like any other bigot, you dehumanize those you object to.

This much you’ve already established. You believe anyone who disagrees with you is a drug-infused criminal.

This is a list of the classes from my sons departments training class

This is pretty meaningless when you’ve made it clear that the first instance your son might be inconvenienced, you’d readily pull him out of it.

It’s not hard to imagine that if your son had boots on the ground in Uvalde you’d ask him to let the gunman shoot up the kids first.

If SWAT units are sent to active shooter or terrorist calls they certainly would be handy.

You mean the guys who regularly get summoned by angry edgelords to attack random gamers and livestreamers who vaguely offended them? Even SWAT teams manage to demonstrate more restraint, and yet they fall for the equivalent of knocking on someone’s door and running away. People know that these agents, heavily armed to the teeth, can be weaponized to get rid of individuals they don’t like. But I suspect you’d be quite at peace with your son being used as a thug for hire in that way.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

You’re like any other bigot, you dehumanize those you object to.

“Police officer” isn’t a race. You can’t be a bigot towards someone’s career choice. Fuck off with your attempt to turn the language of the marginalized into a tool of the majority.

Yes. If SWAT units are sent to active shooter or terrorist calls they certainly would be handy.

You avoided addressing another part of my question, son, so I’ll ask it again and emphasize what you didn’t address: Should the equipment used by police include equipment that was made specifically for the purpose of use in actual war zones (e.g., MRAPs), even when a given police department would otherwise have no use for such equipment?

I remember the North Hollywood shoot out.

So do I. That isn’t an excuse to arm and train cops around the country like we would arm and train soldiers in a war zone⁠—unless you actively view the United States as a war zone, in which case I can’t comprehend what drove you to view other Americans as potential enemy combatants who need to be eliminated by “soldiers” like your son.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“Police officer” isn’t a race. You can’t be a bigot towards someone’s career choice. Fuck off with your attempt to turn the language of the marginalized into a tool of the majority.

I didn’t say you were a racist, I said you are a bigot. A person can be bigoted against doctors, the IRS, Democrats, Republicans, teachers, ICE, car mechanics, etc. You’re bigoted against the police.

You avoided addressing another part of my question, son, so I’ll ask it again and emphasize what you didn’t address: Should the equipment used by police include equipment that was made specifically for the purpose of use in actual war zones (e.g., MRAPs), even when a given police department would otherwise have no use for such equipment?

Bearcats yes, MRAP no or not necessary. The only distinction I see between a Bearcat and an MRAP is that an MRAP has added protection against landmines. Obviously you wouldn’t need that but if no Bearcats are available and the MRAP is being surplused, I don’t see it as a giant conspiracy to accept delivery.

So do I. That isn’t an excuse to arm and train cops around the country like we would arm and train soldiers in a war zone⁠—unless you actively view the United States as a war zone, in which case I can’t comprehend what drove you to view other Americans as potential enemy combatants who need to be eliminated by “soldiers” like your son.

SWAT are the only ones that train with military equipment and while I’m not sure, I think that includes the bomb squad. My son has never been in the military and never trained with military equipment. I see people who rob, kill and hurt innocent people as the enemy (and yes that also includes some police officers) and they will not stop until they are stopped. Stopping them, that’s my son’s job.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

A person can be bigoted against doctors, the IRS, Democrats, Republicans, teachers, ICE, car mechanics, etc.

Man, you’re just eager as fuck to be a victim of systemic bigotry, ain’tcha? 🤔

Bearcats yes, MRAP no or not necessary.

You once again miss the point of the question, so I’m going to rephrase it and give you one more chance to address the part you keep dodging: When a given police department would otherwise have no viable or practical use for equipment that was specifically made for use in actual war zones (e.g., MRAPs), should that department be able to get its hands on such equipment?

SWAT are the only ones that train with military equipment

It’s not the equipment, it’s the “everywhere is a war zone and everyone is out to kill you” mindset. It’s the training that makes cops always be on guard for even the slightest bit of “improper behavior” and always “fear for their lives” such that they will try to justify any act of violence they commit. That’s the biggest issue with modern U.S. policing, yet you’re more concerned about some cops making your son look bad than you are about those same cops executing people in the streets for far, far less than endangering the public or committing capital crimes. You’re more concerned about Derek Chauvin having been caught on tape killing someone than you are about Derek Chauvin having killed someone over a counterfeit $20. Other than “I like the taste of police shoes”, what the fuck do you think that mindset says about you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I see people who rob, kill and hurt innocent people as the enemy (and yes that also includes some police officers)

lol, don’t lie to yourself davec. If you saw a cop robbing, killing and hurting innocent people, you’d be throwing up your hands screaming “QI! QI!” because the alternative is people getting angry at your son.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Now they include smaller men, women, and people who have never been in a fight in their lives. Flight in the fight or flight reflex must be overcome and that is done with a lot of self-defense training and equipment drills.

Is that your explanation for what happened in Uvalde? It was your team of cops, armed to the teeth and armored up the wazoo, who chose not to risk themselves against one lone gunman and instead left unarmed children and teachers to fend for themselves. But that’s not even the explanation given by the police in that case, the explanation has been the standard boilerplate response of “The police are not legally obliged to protect civilians”.

Now, tell me exactly why more credence should be given to folks like you who think cops should be given every benefit of the doubt, when doing so continuously has ended up with more people dead?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Is that your explanation for what happened in Uvalde? It was your team of cops, armed to the teeth and armored up the wazoo, who chose not to risk themselves against one lone gunman and instead left unarmed children and teachers to fend for themselves. But that’s not even the explanation given by the police in that case, the explanation has been the standard boilerplate response of “The police are not legally obliged to protect civilians”.

In December of 2021 a girl was killed by LAPD when they were responding to a woman being attacked by man. The officer that shot her was told several times to slow down, he didn’t and he accidently killed the girl. In Uvalde they made a worse mistake by not rushing in. Here is a picture of the officer who showed up just 2 minutes after the shooter. She held back, but also said if her child had been in there she wouldn’t be outside.
Uvalde shooting: School district fires officer after CNN identifies her as trooper under investigation for her response to massacre | CNN
https://www.cnn.com/2022/10/05/us/texas-uvalde-school-officer-investigation/index.html

When you go into a life and death situation without knowing all the facts, mistakes are made that cost lives. The military has a word for it—SNAFU—Situation Normal All Fucked Up.

Now, tell me exactly why more credence should be given to folks like you who think cops should be given every benefit of the doubt, when doing so continuously has ended up with more people dead?

If you have a better system, then by all means let’s pick a city and put it into practice. I would be very happy to see it.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If you have a better system, then by all means let’s pick a city and put it into practice.

For what reason shouldn’t the current system first try reforming itself by way of change that comes from within the institution thanks to actual introspection by the people with the power in those institutions? For what reason must reform be left up to the people without the power?

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

For what reason shouldn’t the current system first try reforming itself by way of change that comes from within the institution thanks to actual introspection by the people with the power in those institutions? For what reason must reform be left up to the people without the power?

Law enforcement is and probably always will be a work in progress but there are people that want perfection and as long as cops are people, they won’t get that. Some people think they can extort perfection by demonizing, defunding, and retribution for not just criminal behavior but unintended consequences as well. Kim Potter is a prime example. You can’t force people to be police officers so if you make conditions too demanding, no one will do the job. “One bullet from death and one mistake from jail” is not a good recruitment poster.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Law enforcement is and probably always will be a work in progress but there are people that want perfection and as long as cops are people, they won’t get that.

No one demands perfection from the police. What they demand is an end to the police executing people who haven’t even been convicted of a capital crime, let alone committed any kind of crime. What they demand is an end to racist policing policies that see people of color as inherently criminal no matter what they’re doing. What they demand is an end to militarized police training that teaches cops to see the cities and towns they’re supposed to serve as war zones and stay constantly on guard against every citizen on the street.

Perfection is impossible. But the institution of policing only ever gets better when it’s pushed to improve by outside forces, and only ever after a tragedy like the murder of George Floyd. And even then, there’s no guarantee that the institution will improve after it holds accountable the officers responsible for that tragedy. If anything, having change forced upon them by bureaucrats and politicians will only ever make police more resentful of those changes and look for ways around the new “rules”. The institution doesn’t want to change; if it did, it would’ve already changed of its own accord.

You can’t force people to be police officers so if you make conditions too demanding, no one will do the job.

You can’t expect people to respect police officers if the institutions that supposedly safeguard people from police brutality and misconduct would prefer to look the other way whenever possible. We should hold police to a higher standard of behavior precisely because of the power they wield⁠—which is the power of state-sanctioned violence (including lethal violence) carried out in the name of protecting the interests of the state. A McDonald’s employee who jumps over a counter to assault a customer, even in defense of self or others, would absolutely be fired on the spot and maybe even blackballed from the company forever. For what reason should a cop who beats up a Black man during a traffic stop for no justifiable reason keep their job, their pension, and their ability to become a cop somewhere else?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

My son has been in law enforcement for over 27 years, my daughter in law has over 30 years. My daughter has more than 15 years and her husband 20 years in law enforcement. I have been following policing, asking about policing, questioning policing, worrying about policing, debating about policing, asking cops questions.

That is you have been looking at a style of policing, a formal full time police force, that is less than 200 years old. Modern police forces started to be formed in the 1930’s, so society has a longer history of policing without a formal police force, that it does of being policed by a formal police force.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

And it’s important to note that the history of U.S. policing is intertwined with the history of the country’s anti-Black racism⁠—after all, it wasn’t a bunch of vigilantes that assaulted the Selma marchers. Policing is, was, and (barring massive internal reforms) always will be about protecting the interests and the property of the powerful and privileged. Those two groups being overwhelmingly white across the whole-ass history of the U.S. as a sovereign nation isn’t an accident.

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davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

And it’s important to note that the history of U.S. policing is intertwined with the history of the country’s anti-Black racism⁠—after all, it wasn’t a bunch of vigilantes that assaulted the Selma marchers. Policing is, was, and (barring massive internal reforms) always will be about protecting the interests and the property of the powerful and privileged. Those two groups being overwhelmingly white across the whole-ass history of the U.S. as a sovereign nation isn’t an accident.

Eliminate the police altogether and guess what, the rich and powerful will still be protected.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

And it’s important to note that the history of U.S. policing is intertwined with the history of the country’s anti-Black racism⁠—after all, it wasn’t a bunch of vigilantes that assaulted the Selma marchers. Policing is, was, and (barring massive internal reforms) always will be about protecting the interests and the property of the powerful and privileged. Those two groups being overwhelmingly white across the whole-ass history of the U.S. as a sovereign nation isn’t an accident.

Eliminate the police altogether and guess what, the rich and powerful will be richer and more powerful.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 If you eliminate the police

Cute. You actually think the rich and powerful aren’t more rich and powerful than they already are because the cops are keeping them in check?

No, I see the rich and powerful being able to afford private protection while the poorer people will have none, leaving them even more vulnerable. Crime causes poverty.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Crime causes poverty.

Other way around, champ: Poverty⁠—and the desperation it creates in people⁠—are what cause crime. You can’t address crime without first addressing poverty; you can’t address poverty without first addressing the wealth gap; you can’t address the wealth gap without addressing the obscene wealth of the “One Percent”, the decades-long stagnation of wages, and the political corruption that allows wealthy people to avoid paying taxes while poor people get shafted.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Other way around, champ: Poverty⁠—and the desperation it creates in people⁠—are what cause crime. You can’t address crime without first addressing poverty; you can’t address poverty without first addressing the wealth gap; you can’t address the wealth gap without addressing the obscene wealth of the “One Percent”, the decades-long stagnation of wages, and the political corruption that allows wealthy people to avoid paying taxes while poor people get shafted.

You can have wonderful, safe, affluent neighborhoods and then allow a criminal element to invade and everything turns to crap. Businesses get robbed and close. Employees don’t feel safe so they quit. Stores move out, leaving a food deserts in their wake. Parents fear for the safety of their children. Residents leave causing property values and tax base to drop. Schools are vandalized and you have a slum.

The above was the reason Seattle residents did a 180 and demanded more instead of less police. We are talking about a very small group of people that make everyone else’s lives miserable. My son (I know you don’t care) told me “you could feel the difference in the neighborhood by getting just a few of them off the street, even if it was for just a little while.” That was the reason he patrolled the streets for over 25 years.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

You can have wonderful, safe, affluent neighborhoods and then allow a criminal element to invade and everything turns to crap.

And guess what? That “criminal element” likely isn’t there out of some sociopathic desire to fuck things up for the sake of fucking things up. Desperate people do desperate things, and nothing creates desperation like poverty.

We are talking about a very small group of people that make everyone else’s lives miserable.

And getting those people off the streets is a good thing⁠—but what do you want done with them besides “keep them off the streets for the rest of their lives”? Those people, despite your desire to dehumanize and demonize them, are still people. When they get out of jail, they’re fucked because their jail sentence is likely to make finding a stable job that much harder, which means they’re back to being poor, which means they’re back to being desperate, and the cycle continues.

I’m not arguing that some people don’t need to be taken off the streets. I’m arguing that “keep taking them off the streets and leave them in jail” can’t be the one and only solution to this problem. Our carceral system would do well to prioritize rehabilitation and reintegration into society over mere punishment for breaking the law. That would help lower the kind of desperation that leads people to keep breaking the law once they’re free.

Living wages, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, and better public transit would also help those matters. But we apparently can’t do those things in this country because we have to subsidize the wealthy, keep raising the budget for military spending, and pay for more cops to beat more people into submission (or their graves). We can’t and won’t fix poverty by funding the cops more than literally every other government institution. If you think otherwise, you are truly beyond my realm of understanding.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

And guess what? That “criminal element” likely isn’t there out of some sociopathic desire to fuck things up for the sake of fucking things up. Desperate people do desperate things, and nothing creates desperation like poverty.

We are not talking about homeless people eating out of trashcans, we are talking about people who can afford cars, guns and drugs. People that believe they can do anything and not get caught. Most have committed their crimes many times before they got caught and each time getting bolder. People are getting robbed and murdered not out of desperation, but out of habit. If you ever watch the First 48 you’ll see tons of examples. “Give me what you got”, the guy had $30 so the other guy shot a killed him with a gun that probably cost 10 times that.

And getting those people off the streets is a good thing⁠—but what do you want done with them besides “keep them off the streets for the rest of their lives”?

I was on a ride-a-long with my son (I know you don’t care) and he arrested a guy who had meth in his pockets. It’s a long story but on the way to jail he was thanking my son for not only how he handled the arrest but for arresting him so he could get some help. Many of these people get caught up in a lifestyle they can’t control. They have friends that don’t discourage their behavior and often enable it so there is no one to stop them. “I wasn’t going to stop until someone stopped me”. Getting arrested and going to prison can either be a temporary reprieve, a penitence or an opportunity. Unfortunately that choice is up to the guy who has made the bad choices that put him in prison to begin with.

Living wages, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, and better public transit would also help those matters.

Your economic status may determine your legal defense and the length of your sentence (and it shouldn’t) but it doesn’t determine whether or not you are going to commit a crime— Murdaugh.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

We are not talking about homeless people eating out of trashcans, we are talking about people who can afford cars, guns and drugs.

And if you think the homeless are treated any better, I invite you to go read articles about the way cops treat the homeless that don’t fellate your “all cops are great” biases.

I know you don’t care

You’re right, I don’t. So quit using those self-serving anecdotes about your son as if his experiences can be extrapolated into widespread objective conclusions about anything broader than his singular personal experiences.

And I know what you’re going to say to that: “Aren’t you doing the same thing when you bring up George Floyd?” I would be if they were the same thing. The murder of George Floyd is a recent example of a provable pattern of institutional anti-Black police brutality that stretches back to before either of us were born. Your stories about your son aren’t, and can’t ever be, indicative of the behavior of all cops (“good” or otherwise).

Getting arrested and going to prison can either be a temporary reprieve, a penitence or an opportunity. Unfortunately that choice is up to the guy who has made the bad choices that put him in prison to begin with.

We can improve their chances of making better choices⁠—and reintegrating into society⁠—by improving (or in some places, implementing) the rehabilitative aspect of the carceral system. So I say we improve funding for that instead of giving MRAPs to police departments that have never needed and likely will never need an MRAP.

Your economic status may determine your legal defense and the length of your sentence (and it shouldn’t) but it doesn’t determine whether or not you are going to commit a crime

You say that like I’m fucking stupid. I assure you that I’m not. Living wages, affordable housing, affordable healthcare, and better public transit are not, in and of themselves, a means to the end of all crime. But they can help mitigate the desperation created by poverty, which is still a pretty damn huge driver of crime despite whatever you want me to believe to the contrary.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

It’s a long story but on the way to jail he was thanking my son for not only how he handled the arrest but for arresting him so he could get some help.

And here’s the difference between stories like your son’s and the stories that get people worked up: your son doesn’t handle things in a way that get people killed.

Why do you want to stop people from getting angry at police handlings that get people killed?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

No, I see the rich and powerful being able to afford private protection while the poorer people will have none, leaving them even more vulnerable.

You think this isn’t what is already reality for poor people? Rich people already spend money on additional protection the poor can’t afford. What do you think the parents of the Uvalde victims were?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Tell me: Did I say I wanted all police abolished everywhere in the country?

Some individual departments could stand to be abolished and remade in a better image with better (read: less racist) training. Some cops definitely don’t deserve to wear a badge in any state in the country, and they should be barred from being able to get a new job as a cop by jumping over state lines. The whole reason “All Cops Are Bastards” became a saying is because the institution is so thoroughly corrupt from the inside out that “good cops” who try to reform the institution and rat out “bad cops” either get whacked, get driven off the force, or get disillusioned enough to become a “bad cop”. Nobody in the U.S. legal system who works for the state really wants to reform policing because they, too, see the power of the state as something to strengthen at all costs.

Policing would have more respect from more people if the institution saw itself as anything other than a means to protect the interests of the powerful (be they part of the state or merely wealthy beyond standard measure). Until the institution decides that protecting the marginalized is a better approach than harassing/beating/killing them for daring to be marginalized in the wrong place at the wrong time, it will only ever keep losing the respect of anyone who doesn’t already kiss some thin blue ass.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Tell me: Did I say I wanted all police abolished everywhere in the country?

Two and a half years ago defund meant defund. Now even the most anti-cop activist sees it as a mistake.

Some individual departments could stand to be abolished and remade in a better image with better (read: less racist) training.

It used to be the worst thing a person could be called was a racist. Unfortunately it’s losing it’s sting because everything is racist. Try this, Google anything and ask “is XXXXXXX racist” . I have yet to find anything not associated with racism. The world knows about George Floyd but very few know about Kelly Thomas which was a much more heinous act and also caught on video.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Two and a half years ago defund meant defund.

And “defund” didn’t always mean “abolish”. We see shit like the murders of George Floyd and Tyre Nichols and so many other people who didn’t deserve to be executed in the street. What did most of our politicians do? They poured more money into policing. No mass defunding of police ever took place⁠—if anything, there was a mass increase in police funding.

It used to be the worst thing a person could be called was a racist.

Maybe to you. I’m sure plenty of other people⁠—most likely people with a different skin color than you⁠—can think of far worse things to be called.

The world knows about George Floyd but very few know about Kelly Thomas

Police brutality is heinous no matter who it’s visited upon (or why). But you have to remember that modern U.S. policing is so routinely called out for its mistreatment of people of color (Black people specifically) that a murder like George Floyd’s is always going to get more attention for that reason. Yes, the murder of Kelly Thomas is a tragedy. So is the murder of George Floyd.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Nobody enforces the law against adultery so it is ignored.

You think that’s the reason? Have a read of Griswold v. Connecticut and Lawrence v. Texas and you’ll see that enforcement isn’t the problem. It’s that constitutionality thing.

Unfortunately that is not always the case and in a country where there are more guns than people the police have to be prepared for anything.

Yeah, prepared to stand around waiting for someone else so they don’t get hurt. Just like in Uvalde. No duty to protect anyone other than themselves.

That’s why we have our guns. And that’s why you don’t deserve automatic respect.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

When cops deliberately stop a suspect from talking to his wife, when she is in their presence, they have deliberately refused an opportunity to defuse the situation. Further that action will make anybody paranoid. That is not reacting to a critical situation, but rather deliberately looking for a violent solution.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Without law enforcement you have no laws.

Then why is it that we citizens can not use ignorance of the law as an excuse….

But for a cop, that is their get-out-of-jail-free card to be used whenever they want concerning QI.

“I’m sorry judge, nobody told me that shoving my service pistol up this guy’s ass is a civil rights violation… my bad… but don’t set any precedents so others can still use QI to get out of this very same situation.”

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LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Facts only please

Cases like this are why I believe all law enforcement should have always on non-disruptible cameras.

This comes down to one thing and one thing only.
Did the man aim a gun at officers.

Here’s a side question though. If so many of law enforcement is former military… what happened to one shot one kill?
I see body cam footage where an idiot empty’s a clip and loads another. It makes no sense when the target is line of site a few meters away!

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NotSurprised says:

People are morons

What I find hilarious is some folk think their hunting rifle is capable of hitting the balloon, which is at about 66000 ft or 12 some miles.

At most, with custom ammo, they may get up to a few miles but that’s not even close.

Even if it were possible, the damage done by such a projectile would be negligible, not adversely affecting the balloon in the least bit.

I doubt any of these Billies have a surface to air missile, but it could happen.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Not sure what that has to do with the article… but you are correct. To bring down a balloon such as the one from China, you would need multiple rounds of at least 50cb in size. Which won’t pass 3000 meters on a good clean above ground horizontal shot, let alone vertical.
No non-propelled round would make it past 4km. All you’d do is kill some poor person a few kilometres away with the bullet landing.

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