The First Amendment Needs To Protect Everyone (Even Homophobic Web Designers) To Protect Anyone
from the everyone-is-getting-this-case-wrong dept
In writing online about a case about online expression, I’ll open with a reference to some more online expression: the popular meme featuring the caption, “The worst person you know just made a great point.” And that’s where we are with this case just heard by the US Supreme Court: 303 Creative v. Elenis, where a homophobic website designer does not want to be forced by Colorado law to have to make websites for same sex weddings.
And she should not be forced to, because no matter what one thinks of her, or her views on gay marriage, the First Amendment should prevent anyone from ever being forced by the government to make a website they don’t want to make. It should prohibit such compelled speech regardless of the views implicated, their political popularity, or their social, moral, or ethical merit. And by “should” it is not merely a question of what the First Amendment ought to do, but, as discussed below, what the Supreme Court has already found it to do, and therefore should continue to find it to do.
So hers should not be a hard case to resolve in her favor. Unfortunately, as oral argument revealed, the heightened emotions surrounding her specific views, both for and against, are making it a hard case. By treating it as a referendum on gay rights the First Amendment analysis is ending up unduly complicated, entangled in questions about other constitutional rights, including several others found within the First Amendment itself, even though they only serve to obscure the otherwise obvious constitutional problem with the Colorado law. And one danger with this case is that, if the justices don’t tease apart the different analytical threads successfully, they could do some real doctrinal damage to all the rights the First Amendment protects, especially if they are motivated, as they adjudicate her constitutional challenge, to craft a result that tries to vindicate (or repudiate) the substance of this particular web designer’s views.
For instance, the subject of gay marriage often tends to invoke the First Amendment right of freedom of religion. But this right would be a bad basis upon which to resolve this case. Part of the reason it would be a bad idea is because the Supreme Court has, of late, already upended long-standing establishment clause doctrine to effectively preference certain religious views over others. A ruling in her favor for religious freedom reasons would continue that practice and produce an unstable result (and, at this point, so would a ruling against her, also on this basis). It would also be unnecessary to involve freedom of religion because there are far more compelling constitutional reasons to find in her favor. The only thing religion has to do with this case is that it turns out to be what informs her expressive views. But none of her views, or what informs them, is actually relevant. Because any law that targets these particular views (anti-gay marriage) could just as easily target any other views (for example, pro-gay marriage), regardless of what motivation informed them, religious or otherwise. And even if the court were to say that laws can’t target views informed by religion, it would still be a problem if laws could target views informed by any other reason. Even framed just in terms of online expression, either people are free to choose what websites to make, or they are not. If we instead hinge that freedom to choose what websites to make, or what views to express within them, on why people would make those expressive choices, then the constitutional right for people to choose what they want to say, whether through their websites or via any another expressive means, will already have been lost.
Meanwhile, another analytical red herring for the Court to resist here is the First Amendment right of freedom of association. It may however at first seem relevant because this right is often implicated where there are questions of discrimination, particularly in the offering of goods and services, because the freedom of association, which essentially is the right to discriminate, is often in tension with the right not to be discriminated against. The Court spent much of the oral argument exploring whether a professional web designer could refuse to provide web design services, but this line of analysis, important though it is in other contexts, is an irrelevant distraction here. One key reason it doesn’t belong here is because there appears to be evidence that the web designer in fact does provide design services to gay clientele; the issue in this case is only that she does not want to code websites celebrating gay weddings she does not wish to celebrate (or, indeed, potentially any even heterosexual wedding she also does not wish to celebrate), and regardless of the sexual orientation (or race, or religion, etc.) of the party contracting for her services. In other words, this case is only about the Colorado law trying to require her to create certain online expression she doesn’t want to create – it has nothing to do with her not wanting to serve any clientele she wasn’t inclined to serve, at which point contemplating the bounds of her right of association would be more salient. But here the issue is not about whom she wants to associate with but what she wants to say for them. While the Supreme Court might have the appetite to address now how public accommodations law needs to behave in the shadow of this First Amendment associative right, especially with respect to the provision of personal services, it is important for it to resist that temptation here. It is only the issue of mandated expression that is worth the Court’s attention and ripe for adjudication.
And it is indeed ripe: while some have criticized the pre-enforcement challenge of the Colorado law, because ordinarily a plaintiff can only challenge a law that has already caused an injury, standing doctrine has long recognized how constitutionally untenable it would be to allow laws to create expressive injury and then have the courts say “oops.” When it comes to free expression, pre-enforcement challenges are often necessary and therefore permitted. While some justices fretted at oral argument that the pre-enforcement challenge left only a sparse record for review, it is independently important for the Supreme Court not to be deterred by the posture of this case and to reaffirm the ability to bring pre-enforcement challenges of laws that threaten free expression.
Especially because, at its core, this case is only a speech case. Ultimately the constitutional admonition to “make no law… abridging the freedom of speech” is the only part of the First Amendment that should be operative here, to prohibit the Colorado law and protect the speech rights of any web developer anywhere. Whether, however, the Court zeroes in on it will depend on whether it can recognize the speech issues implicated by website design and how expressive the act of coding a website is, including through the acts of generally authoring it as a vehicle for conveying certain expression and also literally writing the code that conveys it. And we all need to hope that it does, because one of the other significant dangers with this case is that if the Court does not acknowledge the speech impingements at the heart of this case, or see coding a website as somehow less expressive an activity than, say, typesetting a newspaper, it would then leave online expression much less constitutionally protected than offline expression (including for the online version of the newspaper). Per the Court in Reno v. ACLU, online expression is not supposed to be less protected. But unless it sees the Colorado law as being the equivalent of the old Florida law that had once tried to force newspapers to run op-eds it did not want to run – which the Supreme Court in Miami Herald v. Tornillo found was unconstitutional – it will be less protected. (And perhaps worse, it could turn Tornillo on its head and now open the door to a state law that wants to force the Miami Herald to run op-eds celebrating gay marriage. Or, if it could do that, then potentially it could also invite laws requiring op-eds condemning gay marriage too.)
Thus no matter how worthy the pro-marriage view, the bottom line in this case is that it is a view that law would be trying to force people to express, and it is that forcing that should be anathema to the First Amendment’s free expression clause. For good reason, too, because a less robust First Amendment doesn’t just hurt the views that we should detest; it also makes vulnerable those views that are best. It is why the Supreme Court was right to find the First Amendment protected the right of Nazis to march in Skokie despite their odious views, and it is why it also should find the First Amendment protects the right of the web designer to maintain her bigotry here, because even if the First Amendment is found in a particular case to protect the expression of a hateful view, what it is actually doing is ensuring that everyone remains equally free to stand against it. After all, this case isn’t just about this web designer and her intolerant views; it is about making sure that no one ever need to fear being forced by law to express any message about which they disagree, including hateful ones they don’t share.
And so we cannot let our relative opinion for the litigants who have brought these constitutional concerns before the Court outweigh our concern for the constitutional principles at stake. Nor can the Court itself, regardless of whether any particular justice favors or disfavors the web designer’s particular animus. Instead the Court needs to keep its focus on how laws like Colorado’s impinge on the rights of free expression everyone depends on, no matter what their views.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, free speech, gay marriage, supreme court, websites, wedding websites
Companies: 303 creative


Comments on “The First Amendment Needs To Protect Everyone (Even Homophobic Web Designers) To Protect Anyone”
Strong disagree.
I’m okay with Homophobic Web Designers not having protections.
Re:
Then you’re okay with non-bigot web designers having no protections either because both are protected by the same laws such that if one doesn’t have protection then neither does the other. If the law can tell a bigot that they will make a custom site supporting gay marriage then that same law could be turned around to tell a non-bigot to make an anti-gay marriage site, all it would take is a shift in who’s enforcing it.
Re: Re:
Bigotry isn’t a protected class in anti-discrimination laws.
Re: Re: Re:
It’s not, but neither is non-bigot. Therein lies the issue.
Re: Re: Re:2
Either I’m missing something or you are. Discriminating against a gay couple is discriminating based on sexual orientation and is thus prohibited by state anti-discrimination laws. Discriminating against a bigot is not based on any class defined in the existing anti-discrimination laws and is therefore not prohibited.
Re: Re: Re:3 You'll die stabbed through by your own sword
The web designer is not discriminating against gay people. Although she could be said to be discriminating against gay couples, there’s no way to ban such discrimination without forcing her to make speech (websites) in support of gay couples. The article takes this into account:
But that’s not all.
You’re right, but that makes no difference unless you’re willing to scrap the First Amendment’s prohibition against compelled speech. Go ahead, pass a new amendment to do that. But what will happen when the bigots come into power? They will compel people like you to make bigoted speech.
Re: Re: Re:4
So, blacks can get a meal to go they just can’t sit in the restaurant? Is that the argument you and the article are really trying to make?
Following this argument to its logical conclusion there is basically no anti-discrimination law that doesn’t violate the first amendment.
Re: Re: Re:5
Blacks can sit in a restaurant (if they order something, but that applies to everyone) because taking orders and serving without deliberate flourish isn’t expression, but making a website which puts pictures of a gay couple somewhere nearby text celebrating a marriage expresses, “Happy marriage to this gay couple”. The issue at hand is compelled speech, not compelled association. And yes, pictures are speech.
Re: Re: Re:6
What if the restaurant takes reservations and the customer has a “black sounding” name? Is that forced speech if they write it down in their reservation book?
At most it’s compelled transcription not speech. Does a stenographer have freedom of speech to not write something down if they don’t approve of the speech they are recording?
People don’t ask a web designer to write an original poem in support of the couple, they say, here are the names, here’s the date, here’s a few pictures and where we want them, and here is what else we want it to say.
Re: Re: Re:7
No, they are asking a web designer to design something original with elements the customer have supplied. Design is the keyword here, since that implies some form of expression.
And that is why your “questions” about taking down names or transcribing are irrelevant (and a bit absurd) since then we are dealing with factual information.
Re: Re: Re:8
Can a chef say that their food is an expression and refuse to sell it to certain classes of people?
Re: Re: Re:9
Whether the chef calls their food an expression or not is kind of moot since they can’t refuse service to a protected class, other than it is entirely up to the chef who they want to serve or not.
The issue is when someone of a protected class wants (in a business transaction etc) someone else to express something they don’t agree with, whose rights are we going to disregard in such a case?
Re: Re: Re:9
No, but they could say their food is expression and refuse to prepare certain kinds of food.
Re: Re: Re:10
Actually private chefs can discriminate based on first amendment protection. They are not a public accommodation.
A chef in a restaurant, however, is a public accommodation and cannot discriminate against a protected class and they can’t just arbitrarily say “we don’t want to serve you” unless they have a lot of money for lawyers because they will get sued.
That sign on the wall that says we reserve the right to refuse service to anybody. Isn’t worth the plaque it was printed on.
I used to own a business I know.
Re: Re: Re:9
Can an Italian family force a halal or kosher restaurant to make them cotechino for new years? National origin is a protected class and cotechino on new years is Italian tradition.
Re: Re: Re:10
“Can an Italian family force a halal or kosher restaurant to make them cotechino for new years?”
Do they normally serve such things? Then, yes. If not, they have the right to not do such things as a special service. Same as if you demanded that a vegan restaurant served you a steak, or a kosher restaurant serves bacon. They couldn’t refuse you a bagel because you’re a gentile, but they don’t have to serve you something not on their normal menu.
These things are really simple. As much as bigoted idiots want to pretend there’s something wrong here.
Most gay couples or black couples or interracial couples, etc. just want the same service you’d extend to a straight white couple. If you can’t do that because a sky ghost says it makes you uncomfortable, you have the right to move to a place where you’re not offering a service to the whole public. Churches and private clubs can still discriminate, but you don’t get the benefits of public access without service the whole public.
Re: Re: Re:11
Not everyone who disagrees with you is an anti-gay bigot. I’m a gay atheist, and even I can see the First Amendment argument. I’m also more than a little concerned about the backlash that can come when we start compelling people to do things that are against their conscience. This is not simple at all, IMO.
Re: Re: Re:12
Careful as a bisexual I have to warn you the morons here spew hate and venom if you like to have sex with other men and are not squarely in line with Lenin.
Re: Re: Re:13
And Chozen lies again.
I don’t think MOST of the regulars would denigrate anyone based on their choice of sexual partners save for you, white boi.
You’re likely not Latino, not bixexual, not an engineer of ANY kind nor anything you’ve fucking claimed to be.
Re: Re: Re:13
You should take your meds again, you’re hallucinating.
But, is this really your weak response? Slander other people because you lose your arguments?
Re: Re: Re:12
“Not everyone who disagrees with you is an anti-gay bigot”
No, some are idiots. Some are merely unable to express their ideas in a way that makes them coherent. I’m open to anyone who argues honestly…
“I’m also more than a little concerned about the backlash that can come when we start compelling people to do things that are against their conscience”
Person one: is gay/trans/bi, etc., needs to ensure that others treat them as human beings with equal rights.
Person two: believes that such people are subhuman, and maybe even need to be exterminated according to their religion.
Sorry, I’m going to side with person one every time no matter what the other guy’s conscience tells them.
It’s not simple because hatred and bigotry exist and are often backed with religion, but when the argument is one person’s right to exist without harming others and another’s right to refuse them access to rights, I’m going to side with the former.
Re: Re: Re:9
Private chefs can. Private chefs do not have a business that caters to the general public, pun intended, that advertises to the general public, and a restaurant that can be frequented by the general public. Like a private club.
Private clubs are explicitly exempted from public accommodation laws. The same would apply to a private chef that only works for individuals, and a chef that owns a private restaurant which is by invitation only or by membership only.
Easy peasy. Lemon squeezy.
Re: Re: Re:7
That’s not the point. Even if speech is compelled, public accommodation law allows for speech to be compelled in the furtherance of the public Good. In the manner of anti-discrimination laws.
This isn’t about religious freedom and it certainly isn’t about artistic expression. Neither of those are exemptions to the public accommodation law federal written in 1964 as part of the 1964 civil rights act, and Colorado.
If you advertise your business publicly, if you have a place of business open to the public and the public frequency, whether it’s a digital place of business or a brick and mortar place of business, and if you sell to the general public, you are a public accommodation regardless of whether what you sell is an artistic endeavor that you did yourself.
Nobody forced her to be a business where the general public can buy things from her. She could have been a private business that doesn’t advertise to the public. Only gets business by word of mouth, and only takes commission by appointment. She would be free to discriminate all she wants because she would not be a public accommodation. Stupid perhaps but not a public accommodation.
The issue is that Colorado law, provides that sexual orientation and marital status are protected classes under the public accommodation law. Meaning no public accommodation. Can discriminate based on sexual orientation or marital status. Federal law does not. If Colorado did not have laws significantly different from federal public accommodation laws, she could discriminate against gay married people all day long. In many states she can.
Because let’s be clear, she’s not discriminating against them because they’re gay. She’s discriminating against them because they’re married. And a public accommodation cannot use first amendment religious freedom rights or artistic expression rights as an exemption from public accommodation anti-discrimination laws.
The religious right has thrown out artistic expression as a red herring and then First Amendment right to religious freedom as a second red herring. The whole issue is whether or not she’s a public accommodation with. She is and whether or not Colorado’s public accommodation law provide for a larger number of protected classes than federal law.
Re: Re: Re:6
If she would say “Happy marriage to Pat and Chris” where the couple are of different genders, but not “Happy marriage to Pat and Chris” where they are of the same gender, then the issue isn’t one of compelled speech, which is exactly identical, it’s that she is discriminating against certain otherwise-eligible customers due to their genders and sexual orientations by refusing to provide them with a commercial service.
It doesn’t matter what the service is, whether it’s restaurant services, medical services, or website creation services.
If Smith doesn’t want to risk making a happy marriage site for whatever otherwise eligible customers walk in the door, she shouldn’t offer that particular service; stick to happy birthday sites or something.
Re: Re: Re:7 public accommodtion
It does matter, actually. The restaurant and the hospital are public accommodations. Website creation, on the other hand, is expressive activity protected by the US First Amendment.
Re: Re: Re:8
Unfortunately, then you’re not very well informed.
Public accommodation law has been settled law for almost 60 years since the 1964 Civil rights act.
The definition of a public accommodation is that you are open to the general public, you advertise at the general public, you sell to the general public, and the general public frequency your place of business. Whether it’s digital or brick and mortar. Mortar. There’s none of this artistic expression Bull crap.
The First Amendment does not allow for discrimination in public accommodation. This includes yes, hotels, motels, Airbnb rentals, rental cars, restaurants, all retail stores, all service establishments, all automobile service centers and a whole lot more.
A. Muslim homeowner that is renting an Airbnb beachfront home to you for your vacation. Cannot cancel your reservation when you show up to take possession because you’re wearing a crucifix. Their first amendment right to freedom of religion does not allow discrimination.
The whole crap about she’s a artist and you can’t force her. Does artistic expression take precedence over any other kind of expression
Protected by the First Amendment? No, of course not.
If you’re a public accommodation, you can’t discriminate. The first amendment does not protect you.
The real issues here are one. Is she actually a public accommodation? It’s pretty clear that she is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law. She sold to the general public. She has a business that’s open to the general public and she advertises herself as being available to the general public. No, you cannot say in your advertising they you assert your first amendment right to deny service to some group of people based on your religion, that doesn’t work if they’re part of a protected class. The only way you get out of the public accommodation law if you’re a public accommodation is by not being one ie be a private business. Not open to the general public, you don’t advertise your business to the general public, and you only sell to a small group of selected customers.
Re: Re: Re:9
Does that mean anybody doing bespoke work, be it tailor, dress maker, builder, furniture maker, portrait artists etc. can be forced to do work for anybody? Such work relies on a relationship with a client, and if they feel that they will not get on with the client, refusal to do the work is the best thing for them to do. Making a website is bespoke work, as is putting a particular message on a wedding cake, where it was decided the baker had to sell a standard cake, but could not be compelled to put a particular message on the cake.
Re: Re: Re:10
You’re wrong about the cake. The Supreme Court never ruled as you describe, but merely found that the case had been handled improperly below. There is a second suit in that matter which is still working its way up through the courts but the general legal question will likely be answered in this case about the website designer.
As for bespoke work, if the general public is invited to be customers, it’s a public accommodation. In last year’s Fulton opinion here is a quote of why the adoption agency was said not to be a public accommodation:
I once did website design, before getting into law. I assure you, we didn’t go through an intensive vetting process. Most bespoke services don’t, and in any case, not getting along with a client for an individual, non discriminatory reason is fine — you can fire a client who is obnoxious. You just can’t fire one because of their race, or religion, or national origin, or other protected classifications.
And if this really is determinative then the case should be thrown back because there is no factual record; the designer was looking for an advisory opinion.
Re: Re: Re:10
It’s telling you rely on the lie that anyone’s being forced to do any work at all as the flimsy foundation of your argument.
Re: Re: Re:9 not a place of public accommodation
That is why I said that it matters what your business is. A restaurant cannot refuse to serve persons based on protected class.
On the other hand, a newspaper columnist can refuse to write nice things about the Illinois Nazis based solely on their religious views concerning Judiasm, and I see no reason a web site author cannot refuse to express approval for them on the same basis.
A person creating an expressive work need not turn away Illinois Nazis. The attorneys in the Skokie case were Jewish, and presumably would not be permitted to join the parade once it was established that the Nazis had a right to parade.
Re: Re: Re:10
“protected class”
The fun thing about protected class, is that it protects everyone. The class is “race”, not “black”. “Sexual orientation”, not gay, etc. A white person being refused service in a black establishment is protected as much as the reverse, it’s just that historically, that’s not as much of a widespread issue.
These bigots are generally as protected as the people they hate, but “bigot” is not part of a protected class so they have a problem when they’re asked to leave.
Re: Re: Re:8
How wrong can you be?
The definition of a public accommodation is a business that advertises to the general public, has a place of business that is available to and/or frequented by the general public (whether that is brick and mortar or digital), and sells their work to the general public, regardless of what that good or service is. There is no exemption for artistic endeavor in public accommodation laws.
Nobody made her decide to run her business such that it falls under public accommodation laws.
She could easily be a private artist. Advertised by only word of mouth. Only. See private clients at her place of business. And only sell and or accept work and or commissions from private individuals.
Public accommodations law allows for private clubs.
Re: Re: Re:6
Here’s an example.
A retired couple owns a bed and breakfast. They live there. They decorated the home. They created their own advertising. They also offer photography services to the guests that stay there. They likely make the food, they also design the exterior and the landscaping. All in all, much more personal expression about the business that they run at their domicile, yet the government compels them to rent and allow everyone other than criminals into their home. There are no First Amendment protections for a public accommodation. And artistic expression is not the issue at hand with respect to what a public accommodation is.
The Supreme Court has to define what a public accommodation is very clearly. So these issues don’t come up moving forward.
I think we all would be much happier if she had just advertised instead of falsely advertising that she makes websites if she had advertised and said “I’m a Christian and I refuse to serve these people based on my first amendment rights”. Is that speech she otherwise wouldn’t have said, as evidenced by this case. Therefore, no speech was compelled by expecting her to advertise that she’s a bigot. The reason she didn’t is that she knows she’d lose all her business.
Re: Re: Re:6
Yes, pictures are speech . However, The government can compel speech if the business is a public accommodation.
And you operate under a flawed assumption that different elements of the first amendment are somehow lesser or greater than the other.
Freedom of creative expression does not exempt you from public accommodation laws. Religious freedom does not exempt you from public accommodation laws or else there wouldn’t be public accommodation laws that have religion as a protected class.
She could easily have been a private business that doesn’t advertise, doesn’t allow the general public into her place of business or the website, and doesn’t sell websites to the general public. She chose to become a public accommodation. Owning a business is not a right. It is a privilege, as identified by the name of the license you have to get, it’s called a privilege license, it is administered by the county and or city and state.
Corporations have to be incorporated and registered with the secretary of state of the state in which you live, unless you’re going to be a foreign corporation and incorporating Delaware, but that’s down in the weeds.
Nobody is denying her the ability to censor her personal artistic expression. She can make free websites for whoever she wants and deny them to whoever she wants. As an individual. As a business owner she has to comply with the laws under which she must do business. And she is a public accommodation in Colorado which means she cannot discriminate against people based on marital status. Which is clear the case.
Making a Muslim homeowner have to rent/ be prohibited from canceling a reservation for, a Christian family, their Airbnb vacation home. If said Muslim was anti-Christian and wanted to assert their religious freedom first Amendment rights is compelled speech. Muslim Airbnb homeowners are prohibited from discriminating based on religion. Their religious freedom does not allow them to discriminate.
She is a public accommodation. It’s very clear. If she was discriminating based on race or religion we wouldn’t be having this conversation because federal law would apply. And just because you’re a website designer doesn’t exempt you from public accommodation laws. There is no magical artistic expression exemption from public accommodation laws. The only exemption is to be a private business. And that means you can’t advertise to the general public, you can’t allow the general public access to your place of business, and you can’t sell things to the general public. She Fails all three tests.
Federal law does not provide for sexual orientation or marital status as protected classes. Because the gay marriage issue is not because they’re gay because she sold things to gay people. The issue that she’s discriminating against clearly is the marital status of gay people.
Colorado law does provide for marital status to be a protected class. Meaning you can’t discriminate if somebody is single versus married. She discriminated against two gay men or women I’m not sure, simply because they’re married.
Re: Re: Re:5 No, it's not
That hypo implicates the right of association, and I suggest (see the “red herring” paragraph in particular) that’s not the applicable analytical framework for this particular case, in part because that’s where the justices who are more ok with discrimination are likely to do real damage if they rule this way. It will be much better to protect the discriminated if they steer clear of this issue, which isn’t necessary to reach here anyway.
Re: Re: Re:6
If the ruling still let’s the discriminated be discriminated against, it’s not something that will be able to “better to protect the discriminated”. It’s just a more secular, rather than religious, freedom to discriminate.
Re: Re: Re:6
Why? Because you don’t want this to become a public accommodation law issue which is exactly what it is?
She sued to have Colorado’s public accommodation law enjoined.
Sexual orientation and marital status are protected classes under Colorado’s public accommodation law.
Her business meets the definition of a public accommodation under Colorado law.
Creation of expressive content does not excuse or exempt a public accommodation from discriminatory behavior against protected classes.
This is 100% about public accommodation laws and the religious and conservative right trying to gut said laws.
This is not a rat about religious freedom. This is not a rat regarding protection of expressive content on the internet.
It’s about the definition of public accommodations under Colorado law, whether that definition is constitutional, and whether or not Colorado law may protect the protected classes that are legislated.
Re: Re: Re:4
First amendment protections are not absolute with respect to speech in common everyday business practice.
There is no first a member protection for discriminating on the basis of religion in housing or lodging. That means a retired bed and breakfast. Owner cannot refuse to rent a room to a gay couple. That’s settled law. I would argue that that retired bed and breakfast owner may live there. Probably does, therefore decorated the place. Cooks the food. Possibly you know all kinds of artistic expression. The government compels him to rent to everyone.
So it’s not about compelling speech, although speech as I said above can be compelled. The issue is whether or not there is a greater public good to compel speech, rather than there is to protect it. And compelling speech and compelling silence are identical with respect to the First Amendment according to the Supreme Court. Hence, you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater.
The issue is that the court must rule. What exactly a public accommodation is. I don’t believe that artistic expression is a valid litmus test as evidenced by my example.
I believe that a public accommodation is any business or individual that holds out for sale to the general public without any reservation beforehand goods and services that people expect to be able to purchase when they go to the business without any incumbrance of a First Amendment protection that allows the business owner to be a bigot.
The court can clearly define all men are of businesses that are public accommodations and those that aren’t.
The court could provide a multiple prong test to identify or help legislators. Identify what are public accommodations and what aren’t in the furtherance of writing proper legislation.
The Supreme Court could simply say if you want protected speech say so. Advertise that you do not serve these groups based on your first amendment right to free speech, freedom of religion, etc.
I would have had no issue with the website designer had she advertised that she is a fundamentalist Christian and therefore does not recognize gay marriage and therefore will not make any business product artistic or purchased from a website directory.
The New testament doesn’t speak to homosexuality whatsoever, Paul says it’s better to marry then to burn, but that’s the closest that you can stretch New testament scripture.
Bottom line is she’s a bigot. And she is bigoted against something that has government protection. Meaning gay people can get married. This is a concerning point.
We all know what would have happened to her business had she advertised up front that she’s a Christian and doesn’t serve these. These these these and these people based on her first amendment right to religious freedom. However, she and we know exactly what would have happened to her business had she advertised that. Most morally upstanding people would have boycotted her, all days. Lesbians bisexuals transgendered queer and the other letters that I can’t remember would have boycotted her as well. She would have been left with the other bigots.
Re: Re: Re:4
There is no prohibition against compelled speech with respect to public accommodation laws.
Public accommodation laws prohibit discrimination against protected classes of people by businesses that operate as public accommodations. The simple definition of these is that they advertise the general public, they allow the general public access to their place of business, and they sell to the general public.
The basis of public accommodation laws is that it is in the best interest of the public good that people not be discriminated against by businesses that offer goods and services to the general public.
Accordingly, there is no exemption for public accommodation laws based on First Amendment protections.
If you offer a good or service to the general public, you cannot discriminate against a protected class of people by not offering that good or service to that, but offer it to everyone else, regardless of your reasoning.
The crux of this case is whether or not her web design business is a public accommodation. Under Colorado law. It’s clear. Under federal law. It’s pretty clear.
The question is whether the definition used by the federal government for the Americans with disabilities Act and since it is so similar, the definition of a public accommodation used by the state of colorado is constitutionally valid.
Let’s make no mistake, the first amendment is not absolute. Commercial speech, which means advertising etc, is highly regulated. The Supreme Court has ruled that states have significant powers of regulation when it comes to commercial speech.
Free speech is not absolute. The Supreme Court has ruled that obscenity, fraud, libel and slander, are not constitutionally protected speech. Speech. Political satire is no matter how reprehensible.
But speech can be compelled and silence can be compelled with respect to businesses that operate as public accommodations.
If you argue that she can discriminate against a protected class because of her freedom of expression rights, then you also must argue that bigots can discriminate against black people because they don’t want to associate with them. Them that’s freedom of association. Also a First Amendment right, or because in some twisted religious viewpoint their religious views say they can’t tolerate blacks in their business.
Hope that you did not describe to such a viewpoint.
And before you say it’s not the same thing, it’s exactly the same thing.
A protected class is a protected class, just because the federal government only protects four classes, race, religion, color, national origin, doesn’t mean the state of Colorado is prevented from adding more protected classes. Protected classes. There’s nothing in this constitution that bars a state from adding to the protections of a federal statute.
I suggest you go learn about some constitutional law, and some case law regarding public accommodation.
That’s why the religious and the conservative right Keep trying to frame this as religious freedom or freedom of expression when it’s nothing of the kind. It is simply whether or not she is a public accommodation under Colorado law. And if the definition of public accommodation in Colorado public accommodations laws are constitutional.
That’s it.
Re: Re: Re:
So, by your logic, a neo-nazi group could hire, say, George Takei to give a speech condemning same-sex marriage and gay rights, and calling for laws to be passed making them illegal, and it would be against the law for him to refuse because bigotry isn’t a protected class.
That’s the thing about how rights work in the USA – the government is forbidden from picking and choosing which content to allow. And by the strict definition of the word, George Takei IS bigoted against neo-nazis.
Re: Re: Re:2
Neo-Nazis aren’t a protected class, so no.
That couldn’t be further from the truth. Even freedom of speech has numerous exceptions under the law.
Again, neo-Nazis aren’t a protected class. Being “bigoted” (lol) against them isn’t (and shouldn’t be) a violation of anti-discrimination laws.
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Re: Re: Re:3
“Neo-Nazis aren’t a protected class, so no.”
Political affiliation is a protected class in some jurisdictions.
Re: Re: Re:4
Name one.
Re: Re: Re:5 The Capitol
DC Code
“Part C. Housing and Commercial Space.
§ 2–1402.21. Prohibitions.
(a) General. — It shall be an unlawful discriminatory practice to do any of the following acts, wholly or partially for a discriminatory reason based on the actual or perceived: race, color, religion, national origin, sex, age, marital status, personal appearance, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, familial status, family responsibilities, disability, matriculation, political affiliation, source of income, sealed eviction record, status as a victim of an intrafamily offense, place of residence or business, or homeless status of any individual:”
Re: Re: Re:6
Not surprised to see you confused about housing yet again.
Re: Re: Re:6
Unfortunately that’s the DC code, not federal law.
If the public accommodation law as enshrined in the civil Rights Act of 1964 included all those protected classes, we wouldn’t even be discussing this case.
This case is all about the fact that the religious right is trying to get a case. Heard about public accommodation and First Amendment rights.
Never mind that you’re right to religious freedom does not allow you to discriminate in housing or lodging or being a grocery store or being basically any goods and services provider like Ms website designer. The issue is that federal law does not make either sexual orientation or marital status of protected class. Because let’s be clear, she sold stuff to gay people. She wouldn’t make a website for married gay people. She’s discriminating on marital status.
Under federal law as a public accommodation, she can discriminate like that. Under Colorado law she cannot.
And that girls and boys is the whole story.
Except the part where people on this board try to make certain elements of the First Amendment more important than other elements. Like say creative expression is more important than freedom of association and religious freedom. Under federal public accommodation law, you can’t discriminate against someone because your religion doesn’t like them.
Re: Re: Re:2
Does George Takei have a public speaking business where he hires himself out to the general? Public. Has a place of business that is available to the general public? advertises to the general public?
If the answer to all three are no, which I’m pretty sure that is true, then no they can’t. He’s not a public accommodation. He may be a public figure, but he’s not a public accommodation.
I expect the speaking engagements that he does are contracted privately.
Going to Comic-Con does not count as a public business. A website where George is for hire to anybody would be.
Apples and oranges my friend apples and oranges.
Miss website designer is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law. She has a public place of business that the general public can enter. Whether it’s brick and mortar or digital. She advertises to the general public, and she sells to the general public. She is not a private artist of which there are many, she is a public accommodation business.
Re: Re:
Well no the issue is what is a public accommodation and what is not a public accommodation. I don’t believe that we can just say artistic expression. Take as an example of retired couple who lives in a bed and breakfast named after themselves. They painted it. They designed the furniture. The interior decorating the menu. They cook the food. They create their own advertising. They also do the lawn, the gardening, the other landscaping and they provide photography services for lodgers that spend the night. I think we would both agree that that is a hell of a lot. More artistic expression then miss bigoted website owner. Why then are they a public accommodation barred from using first amendment protection as a shield for bigoted discrimination with respect to renting rooms? I mean people can always go to Red roof right? Wrong.
I have no issue with the First Amendment protecting a website designers right to refuse service to people who are gay as long as they put it on the advertisement for their business. Otherwise it’s like the old west you can’t expect to get a good or service that’s advertising the general public unless you’re in one of the minority or one of the majority depending on the owner of the business.
If you are going to be bigoted advertise it. That way normal people know what businesses to avoid and all the bigots can hang out with each other.
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I would suggest that anybody carrying out bespoke work is exempt from public accommodation laws for the reason that their business is not simple interactions with a customer, i.e. give me one of those please, but rather involves a working relationship to specify and implement the desired prod>Miss website designer is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law.
She provides bespoke services, like any contractor such as a builder. Can such providers be forced to work for any client, or are they free to reject a potential client if for any reason they are unhappy with doing the work or working with that client. A web designer does not sell a finished product, but like all bespoke designer is expected to work with the client over a period of time to make the required product to the client specifications. Such relationships can go sour before the product is delivered, and so the provider should be as free to refuse service as the client is to not engage their services.
Re: Re: Re:2
It just goes down to the reasoning I think. If you offer bespoke services to the public, you offer them to the public. That means you might have to work with people you dislike, as pretty much anyone who works with the general public does.
If you say a client is difficult, or doesn’t pay on time, or is unrealistic in their timescale, then fine. If you complain that they want to have two tuxedos on the cake instead one tuxedo and a dress, or their website indicates that maybe they’re doing something you dislike, then no.
You can refuse a gay person or a black person or a Muslim person service, the same as you could a straight white guy. It’s when you refuse them because they belong to that group that it’s a problem, and there’s a good reason. You can still run a business if you want to make a private club or church, but if you want to service the public you have to service the whole public.
If you don’t offer a service, fine (same as you can’t force a kosher deli or halal butcher to serve you bacon), but if you offer a service you can’t just say “gays are icky”.
Re:
Then you are also okay with me publicly and violently exercising my 2A rights in front of homophobic assholes if they harass me.
And the same shall be done to me in turn.
In the end, we’ll have a lot of dead bodies. If you are okay with this end result…
(No one is and wants to live in fear of being shot.)
Re: Re:
Well that’s just a silly way to put it. The second Amendment says keep and bear arms. It doesn’t say shoot arms at people, Violently.
So yes I would be all for your second Amendment Rights. Meaning, open carry an AR-15 and conceal carry a couple Beretta PX4 Storms in a 40 caliber. Assuming of course you have the required documentation, if any, stipulated by your state.
If you think that walking around with an AR-15 over your shoulder, and carrying concealed weapons is a bad idea is going to lead to everybody shooting each other that’s silly also.
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While you’re technically right, the 1991 LA riots and the treatment of those naturalized American Koreans who used their right to defend their property and businesses imply otherwise.
And we live, right now, in an era where white supremacists are OPEN about their hatred of everyone who does not conform to their worldview.
So excuse me for assuming the worst.
I’d rather not have to carry a weapon outside of the range and/or hunting game, but right now, I would not want to risk it.
Re:
Then you’re okay with yourself not having any protections, either. It goes both ways. And so does hate. You accuse them of hate but engage in it yourself. Until you give up your hate, you have nothing to stand on and speak as a hypocrite.
Fails by the second paragraph, as the trash website designer was never foced in any way to make websites for anyone. Just as the garbage baker was never forced to make wedding cakes.
Re:
Tell us that you didn’t read all of the Techdirt post without telling us you didn’t read all of the Techdirt post.
Re: Re:
Except for the part where the article clings to its false “forced speech” premise all the way to its conclusion.
Re: Re: Re:
In what particular way is it a false premise? Please be specific.
Re: Re: Re:2
The part where they’re not being forced to create websites; they chose to make a
Re: Re: Re:3
business doing so out of their own free will, and the privilege of offering service to the public comes with the fact that they have zero right to exclude people from the public based solely on how they were born. If they’re unable to serve the public, they’re free to not do so; nobody’s forcing them to.
Re: Re: Re:4
It defies rationality to pretend “You must make gay websites” exists when there’s no “you must make websites”.
Re: Re: Re:5
For someone whose only marketable skill is “making websites”, they either make websites of they starve.
For them, there very much if a “you must make websites”. It is coerced by the universe itself.
Re: Re: Re:6
And my point that your anti-human-rights side lacks rationality stands further demonstrated by your little display, thank you.
Re: Re: Re:4
Privilegrs come with obligations, and “keep your mental disease / religion to yourself and do what you agreed you will do” is mo more burdensome than “don’thit every other car while driving” is.
If you can’t handle the latter, you don’t deserve the former.
Re: Re: Re:4
It’s a strange world that the progressives would build for us where a person earning a living is a privilege that can be denied for wrongthink and to exercise one’s free speech rights one must speak what others tell them to speak.
Re: Re: Re:5
… said nobody not on hallucinogens, ever.
Re: Re: Re:5
Well, it’s a strange person that thinks running or owning a business is anything but a privilege. The business license is called a business privilege license. Nowhere in the constitution are you guaranteed a right to run a business.
Now let’s look at some smart stuff. She is a public accommodation by both the federal definition and the Colorado definition. She advertises to the general public. She has a place of business that is available to the general public and or frequented by the general public. Whether that place of business is brick and mortar or digital. She also sells her goods and services to the general public. She is therefore a public accommodation just like a hospital, a restaurant, a hotel, or any other short-term lodging like Airbnb rentals.
Since she advertises himself to the general public, any member of the general public should expect to be able to buy the goods and services that she advertises without fear of discrimination. To think otherwise would not be in the public. Good. Therefore, the federal government as part of the 1964 civil rights act (because at the time most white people were too stupid to realize that you shouldn’t discriminate against people because of their race, and a whole lot of people were too stupid to realize that you shouldn’t discriminate against people based on their religion) enacted public accommodation laws. Colorado extended the protected classes under their own public accommodation laws and that’s why we’re here children.
Airbnb homeowners cannot discriminate against renters based on their religious freedom, and it’s their home that they’re renting. But outside of Colorado and a few other states they can discriminate against gay people, whether you’re single or married, or living together, or in a civil union, for a whole bunch of dumbass reasons. But not in Colorado.
Because let’s be serious, if she would not sell the website to a black couple or a Jewish couple, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. First off, since she’s a public accommodation federal law would apply. You can’t discriminate based on race or religion regardless of your religious beliefs.
This is because she discriminated on the basis of marital status. She sold stuff to gay people. She just wouldn’t sell stuff to married gay people. That’s marital status discrimination and it’s illegal under Colorado law. Regardless of whether you make the work product you sell as an artistic endeavor or your religious views say you shouldn’t support gay marriage.
There, I hope that cleared it up for you.
Re: Re: Re:2
It’s false in that she is a public accommodation. She advertises to the general public, she has a website and or brick and mortar place of business that is available to and or frequented by the general public, she sells her goods and services to the general public. Public. Is there for a public accommodation. Regardless of whether she sells personally created items of art or not. Therefore, her first amendment religious freedoms do not allow her to discriminate.
The government has allowed speech to be compelled, specifically First Amendment freedoms with respect to public accommodation and anti-discrimination laws since 1964.
Colorado law provides for sexual orientation and marital status to be protected classes.
Federal law does not, It does however protect against discrimination based on race or religion.
If she wouldn’t sell a black couple, a website or a jewish couple a website, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation. All this bullshit about artistic expression and religious freedom wouldn’t even be brought up. But we’re talking about gay marriage.
And let’s be clear, she’s sold gay people websites so she’s not discriminating on sexual orientation. Orientation she’s discriminating on marital status. Because she wouldn’t sell gay men or women. I’m not sure a website because they’re married.
As a public accommodation, she does not have the right in Colorado to discriminate against two gay men who are married, hence discrimination based on marital status regardless of her personal religious views.
Re: You missed a key paragraph
See
“And it is indeed ripe: while some have criticized the pre-enforcement challenge of the Colorado law, because ordinarily a plaintiff can only challenge a law that has already caused an injury, standing doctrine has long recognized how constitutionally untenable it would be to allow laws to create expressive injury and then have the courts say “oops.” When it comes to free expression, pre-enforcement challenges are often necessary and therefore permitted. While some justices fretted at oral argument that the pre-enforcement challenge left only a sparse record for review, it is independently important for the Supreme Court not to be deterred by the posture of this case and to reaffirm the ability to bring pre-enforcement challenges of laws that threaten free expression.”
Re: Re:
Freedom of expression is not an issue. What is that issue is whether she is a public accommodation or not. Just to give you a heads up whether you make your work product yourself as an artistic endeavor or not has no bearing on whether you are classified as a public accommodation. She is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law.
She advertises to the general public. She has a place of business that is available to the general public and or frequented by the general public (whether brick and mortar or digital). She sells her goods and services to the general public.
Nobody forced her to make these decisions. She chose to do these things. She could just have as easily chosen to be a private artist and to only sell privately, to have a private place of business not accessible by the general public to not advertise publicly and to not sell to the general public. If that had been the case she would be free to discriminate all she wants.
However she did not. Therefore she is a public accommodation.
As a public accommodation she is prohibited from discriminating against certain protected classes both in Colorado and under federal law. In Colorado two of these protected classes are sexual orientation and marital status. Although people try to conflate the issue with respect to this case, she discriminated clearly on marital status as it was only because the two gay gentlemen were married that she refused to make a website.
Re: compelled speech
A lawyer is not obligated to take cases with which he disagrees. But, if he does so, the views of the client are not imputed to the lawyer. The attys for the Illinois Nazis were Jewish.
Why should it be different for writng web sites than for writing briefs? Or, for that matter, writing something on wedding cakes? If I find the views of the Illinois Nazis odious, I ought to be able to
1. not write their brief
2. not write their web site
3. not write something on their cake
I acknowledge that an Illinois Nazi may likewise have the right to not represent my views in court, on the interweb, or about the top of my cake.
They are probably obligated, if they run an office supply, to sell me a generic court form from that display over there. They are probably obligated, if they sell website-in-a-box, to sell me one. They are probably obligated, if they run a bakery, to sell me a pre-made cake.
The difference is between being required to open a public accommodation, and being required to speak.
Re: Re:
Lawyers are not public accommodations well except for public defenders, and lawyers that advertise to the general public, have a place of business that is open to and frequented by the general public and sell their services to the general public.
Lawyers are also smart enough not to discriminate against people of a protected class and if they are discriminating against people of a protected class, they don’t say that’s what they’re doing like this idiot.
Under both federal and Colorado law, she is a public accommodation.
See the three tests of a public accommodation above re: lawyers.
She was not required to be a public accommodation. If you’re going to make a case, kindly make a better one. She could have been a private artist, only taking private clients, not advertising publicly. Not allowing the general public into a place of business. And certainly not selling to the general public. She’d be able to discriminate all she wants. Opening a business is not a right. It’s a privilege. There is no protection for owning a business under the constitution. Since she has a public business, her business is not protected by individual First Amendment rights.
She is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law. Unfortunately, only Colorado law prohibits discrimination in public accommodations on the basis of sexual orientation or marital status. She clearly discriminated based on marital status because she sold a website to one set of gay people but wouldn’t sell one to get people that were married.
If I was not clear enough, your religious freedom does not allow you to discriminate if you are a public accommodation. Your freedom of expression your freedom of association does not allow you to discriminate if you are a public accommodation.
No one forced her to be a public accommodation. She chose to be one.
Re: Re: Re: compelled speech redux
That is probably most lawyers. Admittedly there are some who have unlisted phone numbers and do not advertise. Unlisted numbers do not help as much as they should because the phone number is required to appear in enough places that it cannot be viewed as secret. Web scraping services pick it up and flog it about.
An attorney ought not discriminate against clients based on protected class. And, as you say, one who does discriminate probably claims there is another basis for turning away the business.
The point remains that an attorney can turn away business. Indeed, he is obligated under the ethics rules to turn away some business.
Someone who wants to sue the government for making his kids go to school with ``those people”, for instance, presents a meritless case which the attorney ought to turn away. The ``very fine person” of Virginia, who wants to enforce the deed restriction barring other than white people from purchasing property, should be turned away.
Likewise, a newspaper columnist is free to discriminate in his writing. He need not write in praise of gay weddings for the Liberty University Press, or in favor of Jewish tradition in his column for the Illinois Nazi Update.
@Anonous Coward
And I am Ok with you having no rights or protections too.
Would you be making the same argument if it was an interracial couple? What if instead of a hypothetical website designer it was an interior decorator, bakery, or lunch counter? There can be art and expression in baking and cooking that doesn’t mean they should be protected from anti-discrimination laws. Heck making a sandwich can be expressive, does that mean a cafe can refuse to serve an interracial couple on a date?
The “expression” argument further doesn’t hold water because the job a web designer is being hired for is generally not to write the message on the site it is to provide help with formatting and display of that message and provide the tools for the customer to write it or transcribe it themselves.
If someone doesn’t want LGBT clients they should just put in all their advertising “I’m a bigot” in a large font and an easily seen location. The problem of having LGBT clients would then be self correcting–however, if one does decide to use their services, they’d still be required to provide them.
Re:
The clients choose the text and pictures, but it’s the web designer who makes the website and chooses where everything goes. That’s creative expression. The web designer would by convention have to include pictures of the gay couple together nearby text celebrating a gay marraige. She can’t just choose not to put those pictures on the site. Nor can she choose to omit wedding-related text. Pictures are speech, too. The pictures and text together would have to express joy for a gay couple. Forcing her to make the wedding website would be forcing her to say, in words and pictures, “Happy wedding to this gay couple”, even if that’s not what she believes. This is a case of compelled speech, even if it isn’t a case of compelled association.
Re: Re:
Addendum regarding your last point:
I personally agree with such a rule, but as far as I know the First Amendment as the Supreme Court has interpreted it doesn’t support such a nuanced exception. You can argue that it should, but might require a new amendment. And in any case such a rule address compelled associatiom but wouldn’t do anything to resolve compelled speech (“Happy gay wedding”).
Re: Re: Re:
It has nothing to do with the Supreme Court in the First Amendment.
It has everything to do with what a public accommodation is.
And possibly a bit to do with how she has her web design setup. If she does not retain copyright then her work is not protected speech. It is work for hire. And her whole argument is moot.
Public accommodation laws were first enshrined to the federal law in 1964 as part of the civil rights act.
The original text of the statute protected public accommodations at the time. Basically any businesses that provided the staples of life, food, clothing, meaning restaurants and cafeterias could no longer discriminate on the basis of race, religion, color, or national origin. Just those four and that’s the way it is today.
The definition of what types of businesses are a public accommodation has evolved over time and they include any business that advertises to, allows at their place of business, digital or brick and mortar, or sells to the general public. She meets all three tests.
She is unequivocally a public accommodation. However, she does not have to be one. She could advertise privately through word of mouth or other targeted advertising. As an example, only advertising to other small-minded bigots like herself. She could refuse to allow the general public access to her business website and her brick and mortar place of business. She could also sell only to a filtered group of specific people or by appointment or invitation only.
None of these are particularly onerous since she claims her web designs are artistic speech. Many many artists work privately either only on private commission or with only small showings at private galleries. These artists are not public accommodations and therefore are free to make art how they like.
She commercialized her. ‘Artistic speech’ and now the ramifications of that are coming back to bite her in the ass. Work for hire is not constitutionally protected speech. Her web designs are not commercial speech and I have yet to find case law that derives a constitutional right to commercialize art in contravention of any state or federal law.
Public accommodation law does not allow the use of free speech protection, whether it’s artistic expression or religious freedom to abrogate the rights and discriminate against people of protected classes. Regardless of the fact that the federal government only provides for protection from discrimination in public accommodations on the basis of race, religion, color and national origin, there is nothing in the constitution or case law that prevents a state from adding protected classes to the list.
If you argue that she should be able to discriminate against gay people, married people gay married people, cuz apparently she sold a website to gay people. She refused married gay people so she actually is discriminating on the basis of marital status, which is a protected class under Colorado law. Then you also have to say that people can discriminate against black people, against Jews, against people from England, and against people that are different color than they are. Are. And you just can’t. The first Amendment does not give you that right.
Are we going back to the days where black people can’t go into a cafeteria and eat lunch or buy food from the grocery store or stop at certain gas stations?
Because that’s what a lot of you on this board are saying when you think it’s okay for someone to hide behind the First Amendment to discriminate against a certain class of people that you may not identify with. If you can discriminate against gay people or gay married people? Then you can discriminate against black people and you can discriminate against Jews and you can discriminate against Catholics and you can discriminate against Muslims. Otherwise, you can’t discriminate against any of them. The state of Colorado has decided what groups of people deserve protection. The constitution doesn’t prevent them from doing that.
The religious and conservative right would have you believe that it’s her artistic expression. She’s being forced to make web designs against her artistic expression and religious freedoms. No, it’s not. She’s hiding behind the first amendment because she’s a bigot and they hope that when this case so they can destroy all the other protections afforded by public accommodation laws.
Your religious freedoms and your freedom of expression does not give you the right to discriminate against me or anyone else in the public square with respect to goods and services that are offered by you to the general public until you decide that I’m not someone you want to sell to. You just can’t do that even though people think you can.
It’s a privilege to have a business, not a right. That’s why I laugh when people say it’s a right to have a business. No, it’s not. The actual business license is called a business privilege license. The Constitution is absolutely silent regarding owning a business. And don’t give me that crap about life liberty and the pursuit of happiness because that’s not part of the actual constitution. It’s part of the declaration of Independence and that’s not a legal document.
Re: Re:
If creating a website was that easy and formulaic, no one would ever need to hire a web designer. The job description would literally not exist, because everybody would be creating them by filling out a wizard-type tool.
Re: Re: Re:
Yes, that’s part of my point. I didn’t mean to create a “eat your cake and still have it” situation, but I should’ve been more clear. I meant that there is protected expression in the act of arranging the elements, so websites are speech. But at the same time a custom website requested for a gay couple’s wedding almost certainly will include pictures of the gay couple somewhere nearby text celebrating a wedding. Where exactly the text and pictures are located relative to each other is up to the web designer, but that doesn’t change the message (speech) that the pictures and text collectively express: “Happy marriage to this gay couple”.
Re: Re: Re:2
“I meant that there is protected expression in the act of arranging the elements, so websites are speech.”
You can be as bigoted as you want with your own website. But, if you’re offering a service to the public, you have to serve the whole public. If acknowledging gay couples makes you uncomfortable, you have the right to move to a private or religious venue that doesn’t promise to serve the whole public.
Otherwise, you’re making as much sense as Muslim grocery store worker who refuses to sell pork to people.
Re: Re: Re:3 Oh really?
If you are a writer who writes things for other people, like books, you have to write books for anyone who asks, no matter what they want that book to say? If you are are a newspaper that takes op-eds or letters to the editor, you have to run op-eds and letters even when you hate them?
As I said in the post, the Supreme Court has already found that the answer to the latter question is no. And it wasn’t a conditional no that bore on the specific message someone wanted them to express, or who the person was who wanted them to express it.
If the case were about her refusing to deal with certain people as clients altogether, even if they wanted a website with an objectionable message, then maybe you’d have a point. But those are not the facts of this case, which is why it should not be the analysis applied to the case.
Re: Re: Re:4
If I wasn’t sure now I know you are disingenuously misrepresenting the situation.
The only way a writer would have to write books for someone he didn’t want to is if he advertised himself to the general public made his place of business brick and mortar or digital available to the general public, and sold things to the general public. That would make him a public accommodation under federal law, including the ADA and Colorado law.
It seems to me that you want to throw out public accommodations. I guess you’re okay with businesses. Discriminating against Jewish people Catholic people. Anyone on the basis of some made up religious freedom and when I say made up I mean anybody can say that their religion says this or that. There’s no specific test for religious freedom. They can’t just say because this sect of Christianity doesn’t believe that your religious views don’t count. It’s any religious view.
Public accommodation does not allow for exemptions because the person sells things that they make. If they otherwise meet the definition of a public accommodation, which she does.
She does have a right to religious freedom. She has a right to artistic expression. She does not have a right to run a business selling items of her artistic freedom with out abiding by business restrictions set forth by the state or local municipality wherein she resides and operates the business.
The First Amendment does not say you have the right to freedom of expression and to sell the productivity freedom of expression.
She clearly has a remedy not be a public accommodation. I have a friend who makes over a million dollars a year. He doesn’t advertise to the general public. Nobody in the general public is allowed at his place of business and his customers are selected by hand from a group of people that are present at very high-end car shows. He’s not a public accommodation under any definition.
The title of your article is also disingenuous. Do you argue that people should be able to discriminate on the basis of religion based on their religious freedom? If you answer yes then obviously the first amendment doesn’t protect the people being discriminated against. They have freedom of religion too.
Let’s get back to this case. You stated that it’s all about forcing her to make speech that she doesn’t want to make. Which is a load of horse hockey as Colonel Potter would say.
The federal statute and the Colorado statute differ only in the number of protected classes.
She is a public accommodation under the federal statute and the Colorado statute.
Are you arguing that it would not be okay for her to discriminate against a black couple or even a Jewish couple based on her religious views? Or even based on your ridiculous notion that because she has some artistic content to her websites, she’s exempt from public accommodation law which is laughable on It’s face.
If it’s okay to prevent discrimination against a protected class regardless of First Amendment rights, which prohibition of discrimination based on race and religion and color are all based on religious freedom. Freedom Christians believe that the black race and that’s color and by extension the negro race were subhuman based on a weird interpretation of the bible. The same thing for Jews.
So I ask you do you think all public accommodation laws need to be thrown out?
The bottom line is that she chose to structure her business such that it is a public accommodation. She could remedy it easily and become a private concern. Furthermore, she’s not prohibited from creating websites and giving them away to whoever she wants to and not giving them away to anyone else.
There is no right in the Constitution that you are guaranteed to earn money from your artistic endeavors.
Her web design is clearly not commercial speech. It can’t be construed to be an advertisement no matter how far she wants to obfuscate things.
Unauthor has no constitutional right to earn money from publishing a book. In fact, authors cannot write defamatory material nor illegal or false material presenting it to be true. Commercial speech and sold art and writing is subject to significant regulation according to the Supreme Court and precedent going back to 1976.
Her digital design work does not enjoy absolute first amendment protection regardless of the public accommodation issue.
And you even obfuscate regarding the books. An author writes his book for his publisher not to the general public. Let’s be clear about that. You thought most people wouldn’t catch that. The author generally does not operate a place of business where he goes and deals with the general public. A book seller does that for him. Freelance artists freelance they don’t sell their skills to the general public.
Even if we are talking about an author that self-publishes, he still does not have a place of business open to the general public. His place of business being where he conducts his business of writing.
Very poor analogy.
And it is exactly the case that she is refusing to deal with certain clients altogether. She is discriminating on the basis of marital status. If she states that she doesn’t discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation because she’s sold websites to gay people. Rather she refuses to make a website for married gay people, she is discriminating with respect to and on the basis of marital status which is a protected class. She screwed up.
The law doesn’t, as you say, target the view that gay marriage is bad. The law is silent regarding gay marriage. The law provides that sexual orientation is a protected class and marital status is a protected class.
Stating that the case is about views regarding gay marriage is a conflation of the religious right. And the conservative right.
But let’s just cut to the chase and be honest. And if you won’t admit it, that’s fine. If this was about her refusing to make a website for black people or refusing to make a website for Jewish people, we wouldn’t be discussing the case.
The only way that we would is if you believe and are pushing for public accommodation laws to be scrapped entirely. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say the public accommodation laws are okay for certain protected classes, but not other protected classes. And if you say that some protected classes are not good then all must be not good. There can be no protected classes. There can be no protection from discrimination in the public business arena. And that’s just insane. Literally insane.
You proposed throwing America back to the 19 50s and ’60s were black. People couldn’t stay in a hotel. Couldn’t get gas. A certain gas stations couldn’t eat at certain restaurants, etc. Extended to Catholics Muslims Hindus Jews. Basically you balkanize everything and make it a free-for-all that people can be bigots and discriminate against anyone they want if they can think of some kind of right that they believe is in the constitution.
You can’t use your rights to discriminate against other people now that is settled law.
The First Amendment does not provide protection to everyone. It doesn’t provide protection to fraudsters, it doesn’t provide protection to obscenity, it doesn’t provide protection to slanderers, or libelers, or religions that espouse or religious viewpoints that espouse violence or undermining the laws of the United States or the several states. So saying that the first amendment has to protect everyone or it protects. Nobody is ridiculous.
And lastly, unless she has some kind of clause that she retains copyright to her web designs (which any intelligent customer would tell her to bugger off), it’s work for hire which isn’t speech protected by the First Amendment.
She can’t complain that making work for hire goes against her first amendment right to be protected against compelled speech.
Re: Re: Re:4
I think you reasoning could be clarified by making the distinction between sell a finished product to, and work with the client to define and implement a product. Therefore the case comes down to can someone be compelled to associate with, and work with someone else over an extended period of time, and carry the added risk of the client rejecting the work as not being what they asked for.
Re: Re: Re:5
If she is a public accommodation, which she is under federal and Colorado law, her freedom not to associate with people based on whatever thought she has in her head is moot. Moot. In the same way that a public accommodation that offers food cannot refuse to serve blacks or Catholics or Muslims or Jews because they don’t want to associate with them.
If she wants to operate a business and refuse service to certain sets of people, she cannot operate her business as a public accommodation.
She can structure her advertisement, the accessibility of her place of business, and how she sells her web designs to make it private and not a public accommodation.
Many artists do that, they create their works, people can’t access their studios regularly and certainly not the general public, they don’t sell to the general public, and they show their work at private galleries.
Public accommodation laws were enacted exactly for this reason.
If you see a web designer advertising to the general public web design services, you should be able to expect that when you go to this business, you can buy web design services without the business owner deciding to discriminate against you because you’re black or white or gay or straight or Muslim or Christian or atheist.
That’s the whole point, if a business conducts itself in the manner that it sells to the general public. It has to provide the goods and services that it advertises in a non-discriminatory fashion.
Otherwise, you have no expectation of being able to buy something, whether it’s food or clothing or a car or gasoline or a web site when you walk into a business that sets itself forth as selling to the general public.
Re: Re: Re:
And it’s clearly not protected speech if it’s work for hire, like most web design services are. Unless she retains copyright, her designs are work for hire that her customers pay for. They’re not constitutionally protected speech. They’re not commercial speech. They’re not in that class and if they were, commercial speech is not afforded the same protections as the right to religious freedom, the right to free speech, meaning the spoken word or the written word. Commercial speech is a derivation made by the Supreme Court of protected speech but is heavily regulated. It includes advertisements and things like that. The Supreme Court has granted pretty significant powers to states to regulate commercial speech. So if it was commercial speech, Colorado has plenty of right to regulate commercial speech.
Now we get to the meat of things.
She decided to open a business and advertise to the general public. Create a website that the general public could go to. Perhaps she has a brick and mortar mortar space that the general public has access to even if they don’t all go there, and she sells to the general public. That makes her a public accommodation under the laws of the United States and the laws of Colorado. She could have chosen to be a private business. Using selected advertising, targeting certain groups of people and not the general public, she could have limited her place of business and her website only to prospective and current customers, and she could have limited her sales only to a targeted group of individuals, perhaps small-minded bigoted people like herself. She chose otherwise, and she was not forced to do so. Many many artists are private artists. They work in their studio where the general public can’t go. They show their artwork at private galleries where the general public can’t go. Most other artists work for hire. And work for hire is not constitutionally protected speech. Your employer or your customer owns it, which is likely the situation here.
Pay no attention to all the hand waving where she’s “losing her first amendment right of freedom of expression. Freedom of artistry freedom of religion.”
It’s settled law that the federal government and state governments can pass laws prohibiting the discrimination of protected classes and your constitutional rights don’t supersede that.
The issue is Colorado protects discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and marital status under it’s public accommodation statutes, the federal government only prohibits discrimination in public accommodations on the basis of race, religion, color or national origin.
I’m sure, except for a few extremists, nobody on this board would agree that she could legally or morally refuse to make a website for a black couple, or a Catholic couple, or a jewish couple, or a Muslim couple, or a Hindu couple, or a couple from England, or a couple from Belgium. These are all cases of protected classes that are covered by the federal statute. However, Colorado law protects against discrimination of many other groups of people because Colorado voters voted people into office that determined there are other groups that need protection too. From small-minded bigots.
Re: The replies here seem to have it
“The ‘expression’ argument further doesn’t hold water because the job a web designer is being hired for is generally not to write the message on the site it is to provide help with formatting and display of that message and provide the tools for the customer to write it or transcribe it themselves.”
The crux of the issue (and the one that makes this case so important for issues we discuss here at Techdirt) is whether building a website is an inherently expressive act, or simply non-expressive labor. If the latter, then maybe the right to free exercise of religion or free association would matter to the disposition of this case.
But the real issue in this case is how much we need the Court to recognize it as the former. Not just for this case, but for every other attempt by government to regulate our online speech.
Re: Re:
But your argument is expression and free speech should override public accommodations laws in a commercial setting. That’s a very slippery slope and easy to go from a website to an interior designer or architect (gay couple living in sin) to a restaurant. All it seems to take is some sort of artistic expression to pass your speech test and things that you may not consider artistic, I could make an argument could be. You and others seem to be really trying hard to avoid the lunch counter comparison (I wonder why they is?) but taking the argument to the logical conclusion all the restaurant would need to do is draw something artistic or expressive with ketchup on the plate or arrange food in certain ways for different customers, make it part of their shtick to provide “unique art” on the plate, and then they could say they just can’t serve “those people”.
Further if this is the standard there is nothing limiting it to the “icky gays”. The same argument could be made for anyone you don’t like whether you’re a racist, sexist, or just general bigot.
There are many examples in this very thread that if your argument holds could deny large portions of the population many services because you can make a reasonable argument they require some sort of expression (photography, dress making, etc.). I’m assuming you’re white and straight because if you weren’t the consequences would be obvious.
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The expression made must be on the customers behest so your comparison is totally irrelevant unless we want to discuss how a place serving lunch discriminates against people using a terrible excuse.
Re: Re: Re:2
“Cheeseburger, no onions please”, there the expression is now at the customer’s behest. Stop pretending an interpretation based on “expression” and “art” will be very limited. It wouldn’t be, it would set a broad precedent that would be exploited and which would basically nullify all non-discrimination laws for a large number of industries. It’s unfortunate how many people don’t see that obvious outcome.
Re: Re: Re:3
If a White person asks for a “cheeseburger, no onions” and gets it, but a Black person asking for a “cheeseburger, no onions” is refused, that’s discriminatory.
If the cafe says “we will not honor any request to remove onions from a cheeseburger, no matter who asks,” that’s not discriminatory.
Re: Re: Re:4
“Asking for no onions is gay, therefore we won’t honor that request.”
Re: Re: Re:3
You really wanted to go down the absurd argument route, huh?
What the customer asks in your example isn’t an expression because to be considered as an expression in 1A terms it has to communicate an idea. Removing onions from a burger doesn’t communicate an idea unless your example’s establishment’s “cheeseburger with onions” is connected to a specific expression where the onions are an integral part for that message – and even then, that doesn’t necessarily have 1A implications in all situations when someone asks them to remove the onions.
Re: Re: Re: That isn't my argument at all
“But your argument is expression and free speech should override public accommodations laws in a commercial setting.”
I’ve said no such thing.
Re: Re: Re:2
You absolutely did!
Her business fits the definition of public accommodation under both the federal statute and Colorado law.
Therefore, she is a public accommodation. Colorado public accommodation laws prohibit her from discriminating on the basis of both sexual orientation and marital status during the furtherance of her business, which means she can’t refuse to sell somebody something because of sexual orientation or marital status or both. Marital status is at issue in this case.
You argue that because of her artistic expression, and religious freedom, she should be excused or exempted from the Colorado public accommodation laws prohibiting discrimination against protected classes. Public accommodation laws that Colorado voters have determined based on their elected officials.
If you didn’t say that then you believe that the Supreme Court should rule against her and she should lose her case.
If you think she should win her case you said and you agree that her religious freedom and her freedom of artistic expression supersede Colorado public accommodations law that prohibits discrimination against people in the conduct of business on the basis of sexual orientation and or marital status.
You can’t have it both ways.
I think that your position and the underlying basis for your entire article at the top of this page is based on a poor understanding of public accommodation laws and how they apply to Hector versus how they apply to Little Miss bigoted web designer.
Online expression or speech is not being compelled except in cases where the business is a public accommodation. Although her web design does not qualify as online expression. She creates work for hire. Unless her customers are stupid enough to allow her to retain copyright, and even then it’s not 100% determined that it still wouldn’t be work for hire depending on the contractual language.
This is a poorly disguised case of the religious right and the conservative right hand designing a legal challenge to the protections afforded protected classes by public accommodation laws.
And you got fooled just like everyone else.
This website, is not the product of a public accommodation, unless you are in the business of selling these websites to the general public, the business that sells these websites allows the general public access to their place of business and this is not just where the websites are sold, but where they’re also developed. And also the business must advertise these websites for sale to the general public.
As I stated in another post. The web design services that 1&1 we hosting provides to me in support of my subscription and domain name management are in no way the protected speech of the web designer or 1&1. They are a product provided by 1&1, which is a public accommodation.
The reason they’re a public accommodation is because 1&1 is in the business of designing and maintaining and selling websites and web site services as part of their domain name hosting platform.
After a quick check about what techdirt really is, I can tell that you’re either using the idea of this case somehow being applied to tech dirt and tech dirt being a the public accommodation as a distraction or you really don’t understand the law regarding public accommodations.
Techdirt is a forum and a news article bulletin board. It is literally defined as an internet blog, that revolves around intellectual property issues.
So no, this case does not apply to you and techdirt. Unless I magically missed the part where techdirt create internet blogs for the general public instead of possibly allowing individual users to utilize the techdirt framework, You’re not a public accommodation.
As I stated before, freelance authors are not public accommodations. They can turn down a commission to write about whatever they want to turn down. Although with the limited salaries that most freelance writers manage to scrounge together, why they would turn down writing about anything, I have no idea.
So now we’re back to she’s a public accommodation and you are either for public accommodation laws or against them.
Techdirt is not a public accommodation. This case does not apply to either you or techdirt because to my limited knowledge you are not a public accommodation and neither is techdirt. Unless you have a giant website that advertises your services to the general public. You sell Your goods and or services to the general public, and you allow the general public access to your place of business, meaning where you do your work.
I don’t believe you passed the tests. That means you’re not a public accommodation.
Since you write (and are not a public accommodation), all of your online work is protected by copyright, unless it’s work for hire which is settled law. One provides you intellectual property rights and the right to protected speech (meaning you can’t be compelled to create speech in your case writing). The other abrogates any and all constitutional rights to protected speech in any of the works that you do for hire either as an independent contractor, a freelancer or as an employee, unless there is a contract to the contrary.
If you were a public accommodation, however, you could be compelled to create works that are in line with the goods and services that you offer as a business in the furtherance of your business activities.
I don’t know what laws are valid in the state you live in regarding remedying failure to abide by public accommodation statutes, but it’s usually a fine and you may open yourself to civil litigation from the aggrieved party. What almost certainly would not happen. Is the government forcing you to write something you didn’t want to write. They literally can’t do it. You have to agree if that was one of the remedies.
In fact, here is the penalty for violating Colorado’s public accommodations law:
Any person who violates section 24-34-601 shall be fined not less than fifty dollars nor more than five hundred dollars for each violation.
So she has to pay somewhere between 50 and $500. That gets paid to the people who were discriminated against.
It doesn’t provide, that I could find, the possibility of civil litigation by the aggrieved party.
I don’t expect that aggrieved persons would come back to the same business only to be turned away again. That might be a way to make some money from idiots that discriminate.
But No, the Colorado case does not mean that you would be forced to write articles on topics and for people that you don’t like or don’t want to. And in fact it could never actually mean that.
The products you offer are the products you offer. You can’t be forced to offer different products even if you were a public accommodation.
You’re just prohibited. From refusing to provide products you normally would offer other people to someone else.
If you don’t write about a certain subject, then even if you were a public accommodation, you can’t be forced to write about a subject that isn’t part of the goods and services you sell.
Re: Re: Re:
Ignoring your ad hominem efforts to use the race and sexual orientation of your critics to deflect their arguments, the US Constitution is quite explicit that governments cannot compel speech, while it does not speak anywhere on public accommodation. Even if people accepted your assertion that allowing web designers to not design websites with messages they disagree with would directly lead to broad swaths of the population being denied services, laws abridging the First Amendment are subject to strict scrutiny which effectively negates any sort of harms-based balancing test as justification for government infringement.
Re: Re: Re:2
If you take the statement, governments compel speech to mean that there are penalties for violating public accommodation statutes and if you to avoid those penalties, you may be forced to engage in speech that you do not agree with, then you are absolutely incorrect.
In this case, the plaintiff meets the definition of a public accommodation under Colorado law. If you agree that her web design is protected speech. And she wishes to avoid the 50 to $500 fine that comes with violation of Colorado’s public accommodation laws regarding discrimination with respect to sexual orientation and marital status. The government absolutely will compel her to create a website for a married gay couple.
Public accommodation laws were created in 1964 as part of the civil rights act. The protected classes at that time and even today for the federal government are race, religion, color, and national origin.
If you argue that freedom of association, which is an extension of freedom of speech, is a component of allowing blacks into your business or selling goods and services of your business. Two blacks and you wish to refrain and you use freedom of association as an argument. If you wish to avoid penalties, you are compelled to associate with them and offer them goods and services and allow them into your business.
I don’t know what gave you the notion that the government can’t compel speech. It does it all the time with respect to public accommodation.
I hope that cleared things up
Re: Re:
Respectfully, Cathy, I call complete and utter bullshit that her web design business is in the same category as your techdirt.
Are you in the business of selling web design services to the general public, that you retain copyright in. Because work for hire is not constitutionally protected speech.
Do you advertise to the general public for the creation of web designs. Do you allow the general public access to your place of business. This bulletin board forum and that’s kind of what it i, Although maybe you guys use a different engine, is journalism. Your product is not this website. Your product is a forum wherein people can debate and discuss ideas related to tech I assume.
Even if the answer was yes to all three that makes you a public accommodation. Suck it up. Buttercup and deal with business regulation cuz that’s what it would be.
You can’t promote fraud on this website without legal ramifications. Why should you be able to discriminate?
Based on your argument, whether you discriminate in the website itself or by not making or making a website, it’s the same thing because it’s protected speech. You can’t have it both ways.
Furthermore, the websites that one and one web solutions design for me as part of my subscription to their web hosting and domain name support are not the protected speech of the individual designers or the company. It’s ridiculous to even say so.
So back to Techdirt and your concerns. You are not in the business of creating websites for sale to the general public, therefore you are not a public accommodation. (Unless I’m wrong which I doubt)
It’s extremely disingenuous for you to say that public accommodation laws are regulating online speech, of course they’re not.
Fraudulent, hateful, and online speech that incites to violence is regulated. Why should discriminatory speech be any different?
And remember she is not creating her website, her business is. And businesses are not afforded all the same rights to speech as individuals, in some cases perhaps most, but not all, that is also settled law.
Furthermore, your statement that this case is only a free speech case is laughable on its face.
This case is about public accommodation laws. can the federal government and the state governments create statutes that define public accommodations as they’re currently defined.
Can a state if public accommodation statutes are found to be valid, add additional protected classes over and above what the federal government lists?
The Supreme Court has already addressed free speech in the context of public accommodation and other anti-discrimination laws and it is found that free speech, religious speech, artistic speech, are not sufficient to allow for an individual, a group or business to discriminate against the protected class of people that a government entity has found, preventing the discrimination of which is an interest of the public good.
If it was a First Amendment issue. Let’s get that clear because free speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press are all at the same level of validity with respect to constitutional protection.
If it was a First Amendment issue, anti-discrimination public accommodation laws laws that protect against religious discrimination like the civil rights act would be superseded if somebody said “my religion says I should discriminate against people of that religion.” And that’s clearly not the case.
The First Amendment does not give You the right as a public accommodation to discriminate against people.
You’re not proposing that it does, are you?
Are you proposing that public accommodation laws that prohibit discrimination against people based on race and religion and national origin and color, should be found invalid if the reason for discrimination is the first amendment?
Are you sure?
Re: Re:
No, it’s not
This case is all about whether she’s a public accommodation under Colorado law. And whether the definition of a public accommodation under Colorado law is constitutional. That’s it.
There is no case law that provides for free expression, artistic expression, freedom of association, freedom of the press, or freedom of religion to be a basis that allows violation of prohibited discrimination in public accommodation laws.
They’re just isn’t.
There is no constitutional right that allows a public accommodation like a restaurant to discriminate against blacks, or against Jews, or against yellows, (Color is actually a protected class under federal public accommodation laws) or against people born in another country – national origin.
If you say that freedom of expression or freedom of association or freedom of religion allows for a business to discriminate against people in the basis of race or religion, than you’ve got something really wrong with you.
Just because you create expressive works doesn’t mean expressive speech rights allow you to avoid public accommodation laws.
Freedom of religion doesn’t allow you to avoid public accommodation why would any other right enumerated in the First Amendment Allow you to avoid public accommodation laws?
Your arguments don’t make sense. They are special pleading because you have a web blog? That’s part of a larger blog or journalism/ internet forum.
This isn’t a public accommodation unless you’re in the business of selling web blogs to the general public.
Both of the above fail, as they are injecting personal viewpoints.
And Ms. Gellis, I have to disagree with you once again. This is getting to be a habit, and one that I don’t wish to continue.
For the record, 1A includes no less than 5 prohibitions working against the government (religion is mentioned twice, so the 6 are reduced to 5). I note that there are no words or punctuation marks to indicate an “OR” condition. By contrast, the commas printed therein are, normally, taken as “AND” conditions. By dismissing out of hand the “freedom to associate” clause, you have just sealed off the actual freedom we have in America, the right to associate as we wish.
In blunt terms, if you come into my house and pee on my carpets, you’re not going to get away with “I’m expressing my opinion” – I’m going to expel you, and warn you to never return…. I don’t wish to associate with anyone who disrespects my dwelling.
That’s truly the bottom line. Viewpoints can be expressed in myriad ways (which you already know, as a lawyer), but speech does not, and never will, overshadow the other rights contained in 1A – they are equal, or the Founders would not have enumerated them as such.
The business of one person desiring to not contract with another person is private. Attempting to pass laws (or actually passing them, in some cases) that abride the right of freedom to associate or not with whomever, those are exercises in just how far can we disrespect the Constitution. And lest we forget, the Constitution itself has another disbarment against the government wherein Art 1, Sec 10 states, rather unequivocally, that no State shall make laws that impair the obligations of contract. Since 1A makes no mention of overridding, or otherwise abridging this clause, we have to consider that a private contract between two consenting adults must have some expectation of faithful results. (Discussion; in the times of our Founders, skullduggery was not a “thing” that needed special treatment, so such things as fairness weren’t felt to be needful of specification. Agreed, this was a major failing of foresightedness on their part.)
In today’s case at bar: If the USSC comes down on the side of freedom of religious viewpoints, because of the separation of State and Religion, then we’ve progressed no further than we were a priori. In America, one always has the right to express a religious viewpoint (though perhaps not without consequences as promulgated by the local community). To even think of bringing that as a defense (or in this case, as an offensive move) is all but guaranteeing a befuddled decision, usually (and recently demonstrated in ample quantity by the USSC) to the detriment of the country.
But I still remain respectful of your contributions at large,
sumgai
Re:
The author dismissed the freedom of association issue not because it was unimportant, but because it was irrelevant in this situation. The web designer has done business with (associated with) a gay client. The problem is that making a website for a gay marriage by convention would involve putting pictures of a gay couple nearby text celebrating a marriage. Pictures are speech, so the words and pictures together would say “Happy marriage to this gay couple”. Regardless of whether it’s clear that this web designer doesn’t hold such a belief, forcing her to make such a website would be compelling speech in the form of support for a gay marriage. The article distinguishes betweem compelled association (not relevant in this case) and compelled speech (the matter at hand).
Re: Re:
I get that, AC. My “issue” here is that supporting one right (under 1A) shouldn’t, and must not, undermine the importance of all of the other rights thereunder.
And taking both of our sides to the next level, it isn’t about wishing to not associate with gay people, the Constitution portion previously quoted makes no distinction about how many people one might wish to either associate or disassociate with – one, some, many or all, it’s all the same to that clause.
Moreover, just because I choose to contract with someone now, that does not mean that I am forced to contract with them forevermore. Nor that if I contract with Gay Person X, that I am forced to contract with Gay Person Y, for any reason. My viewpoint can enter into my decision, but it’s not required to. I could just as easily have gotten out of the bed on the wrong side that morning, and no one can gainsay me, not even the government. Especially not the government, thanks to the Constitution and its amendments.
As to how many laws providing anti-discrimination protection are actually repugnant to the Constitution, I’ll make a general statement that all of them are. Under a strict, deep and lengthy review, I might change my mind about that, but as a general opinion at this time….
Re: Re: Re:
Public accommodations law has been settled since the civil Rights Act of 1964.
Restricting protections of the Bill of Rights in the furtherance of the public good is settled law.
That’s why we have public accommodations in the first place. You can’t discriminate in housing. You can’t discriminate in lodging. The federal government’s set of protected classes is a lot smaller than Colorado’s, but if predent and supreme court ruling has found that public accommodations law prohibits first discrimination against a protected class and that first amendment protections do not apply, then the number of protected classes should be moot. There’s nothing in the constitution or federal law that says states are prohibited from adding more protected classes to public accommodation laws.
If you say that public accommodation laws preventing discrimination are repugnant to the constitution, then laws criminalizing speech (specifically yelling fire in a crowded theater) are also repugnant to the Constitution, which is ludicrous.
Not all speech is protected.
Not all artistic expression is protected.
One that applies to both is obscenity. The Supreme Court ruled about obscenity laws versus censorship in the Larry Flynt case.
The court specifically said that no one could believe that Jerry Falwell actually had sex with his mother and therefore it had to be political satire which is protected speech. However, if there had been an obscene graphic where somebody deep faked Jerry Falwell and his mother in a compromising sexual position, that would have been unprotected speech.
Re: Re:
No, association is still a factor. Saying that she’ll offer some services to the group she hates but all services to the group she is okay with is not appreciably different from a restaurant that allows Whites to eat in any dining area they like, but requires Blacks to eat in the dining area in the moldy, dark basement.
Re: Re: Re: EXPRESSIVE services
The key in this case is that she doesn’t want to provide EXPRESSIVE services to all of her clients. That expressive nature of what she’s being asked to do is the key, and what differentiates it from other right of association cases.
(People – justices included – do get bogged down with questions of whether other acts, like seating in a restaurant or baking a cake is inherently expressive, and those questions are more thorny. But this one – making a website – should be easy, and thus not implicate right of association at all, as those other cases are more likely to because their expressive quality is less clear.)
Re: Re: Re:
It has nothing to do with freedom of association. She is a public accommodation under Colorado law. The statute that she sued to have enjoined is Colorado’s public accommodation law.
There is no magic. Get out of adhering to public accommodation laws based on some First Amendment right.
Regardless of whether her freedom of literal speech or her freedom of association or her freedom of religion or her freedom of the press or her freedom of expression is enjoined by the public accommodation statute. The point is moot.
First Amendment rights do not allow for exemption from prohibited discrimination under public accommodation laws.
If they did, people could claim freedom of religion allows them to discriminate in lodging or basically any other public accommodation.
Muslims that own groceries could refuse to sell to christians based on freedom of religion.
Restaurant owners could refuse to serve blacks or Chinese based on freedom of expression.
That is simply ridiculous.
And if any protected class like race and religion and color and national origin are valid,(and yes, color is actually a protected class under the public accommodation laws of the 1964 civil rights act, anachronistic. A little bit isn’t it?) Than any protected class that a state wishes to add to the federal public accommodation statute and use as their own is valid, else none are valid, and we return to the wild wild West.
Public accommodation laws are a valid restriction of constitutional rights in furtherance of the public. Good by limiting discrimination. If you disagree with that statement, then you believe that people should be allowed to discriminate against blacks and Chinese and Indians and Asian Indians and Eskimos. As a society are we really going to go there?
If your business meets the definition of a public accommodation under federal law or under state law, the provenance of the goods and services you sell is immaterial. It doesn’t matter if it is the most beautifully artistic fabricate egg that you made yourself. If you sell those to white people and not the black people, you’re violating public accommodation laws and that is illegal. And your first amendment rights, regardless of which one you choose don’t matter.
Re: Re:
No the issue at hand is what is a public accommodation and what is not a public accommodation? It has nothing to do with creative expression and everything to do with public accommodation.
Secondly, the justices at the Supreme Court could determine that all the web designer had to do was state that she will afford herself of her first amendment protections to reserve the right to refuse to make a website for the following groups of people… That way there’s no question. People go to a store to buy something they don’t expect to be told “You can’t shop here”
And creative expression is compelled in many cases.
For example, photographs by a private photography company for school students. Photographs buy a private person or company for sports.
The issue is whether or not the expectation of being able to purchase goods and services as advertised is more important than either first amendment protection for speech or requiring bigots announced that they’re using the first amendment to protect themselves against compelled speech.
And come on. Let’s all be adults here. Nobody would know that she made that website unless she went out there and told them. She’s not associating her name with the website. I’m sure that they probably didn’t want the website designers name anywhere near their website.
It’s a smoke screen using the First Amendment protection of free speech to be a bigot.
She could always just offer websites as commissioned works only and not advertised to the general public.
That’s what private chefs do. They can discriminate on whoever they want. If you’re a chef, even if you own your own restaurant, you’re a public accommodation. You cannot discriminate against anyone.
And before people bring up Nazi skinheads or neo-Nazi skinheads, I’m sure someone out there is figured out a way to show that either Nazi skinheads are all white, which I think by definition they are, which means you would be discriminating on the basis of race, or some wackadoodle. Religion is tied to Nazi skinheads, and lastly, lo and behold you cannot discriminate against Nazi skinheads if they assert their first amendment right to be a Nazi skinhead.
And when I say you, I mean the government with respect to a public accommodation. That’s why Nazi skinheads can buy food and clothes and CDs and computer to look up Nazi websites on at Walmart.
Re: Re:
If federal law applied she would be fine even as a public accommodation. Which she clearly is, and there is no exemption from public accommodation laws for expressive creative businesses. If you don’t want to fall under a public accommodation law, have a private business. Don’t advertise to the public. Don’t sell it to the public. Don’t allow the public to come to your place of business. There are plenty of artists that do not advertise to the general public. They may have their works in a gallery from time to time. But they are not a public accommodation.
Ones that are foolish enough to create a website to sell their art, a public website where anyone can go there because brick and mortar and digital places of business are settled law with respect to public accommodation have made themselves a public accommodation by advertising, selling and allowing the general public to browse and purchase their art.
Federal law does not provide for sexual orientation or marital status as protected classes with respect to public accommodation. Colorado law does. That’s why this case is even being heard by the Supreme Court.
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Well then they’ll be at odds with previous case law.
There’s plenty of settled law that says religious freedom cannot allow for religious based discrimination.
In other words, a Muslim can’t refuse to rent you A vacation rental because you’re wearing a crucifix.
The crux of the matter and what the case turns on is two maybe three things?.
Firstly, is she a public accommodation which seems straightforward unless the justices rewrite settled law. Public accommodation law does not provide for an exemption based on businesses that contain or are primarily based on artistic expression.
The tests to determine whether a Republic accommodation are as follows. Is your business open to the general public/Does the general public frequent your place of business?
Do you advertise to the general public?
Do you sell to the general public?
If you meet those three tests, you’re a public accommodation. I’m pretty sure she meets the tests.
In order not to be a public accommodation, you have to be a private accommodation, meaning you don’t advertise to the general public, your place of business is not open to the general public, the general public does not frequent your business. Business. And you don’t sell to the general public.
Secondly, if she is a public accommodation under Colorado law, is Colorado’s public accommodation law to extensive ? In other words, are there too many protected classes in the Colorado law. The federal law doesn’t prohibit discrimination in public accommodation to sexual orientation or marital status for instance.
That really makes no sense either because neither the Constitution nor federal law prohibits the states from adding more protected classes to public accommodation laws, then the federal government has in the 1964 civil rights act.
Thirdly, if she is not a public accommodation, the court must define clearly for the future and to help draft proper legislation exactly what is a public accommodation. Accommodation. They would be rewriting parts of the 1964 civil rights act. But they may well have to.
Lastly, they must rule on the stature of each element of the First Amendment.
To hear posters on this board say it, freedom of expression trumps freedom of religion, or perhaps it’s freedom of association.
That’s ridiculous. If freedom of religion does not exempt one from public accommodation laws, then how does freedom of artistic expression do so? To say what it does makes artistic expression placed higher than freedom of religion which is ridiculous.
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It’s Article 1 Section 10 that prohibits States from impairing the obligation of contracts.
However, state statute of limitations laws clearly impair the obligation of a contract, as contracts expire within a certain number of years from the date that they are breached as a function of law.
For example, in the state of Florida of which I’m a resident, the statute of limitations for breach of contract is 5 years beyond which there is no legal remedy for the contract to be enforced. This state law clearly impairs the obligations of one of the parties or both of the parties for the contract that has been breached.
If that’s not impairing the obligation of a contract, I don’t know what is. And the statute of limitations regarding contracts is settled law in all of this several states. States all have differing terms of statute of limitations so I don’t know why you would have brought that up.
Freedom of association meaning freedom to not associate as a basis for acting against public accommodation laws has been found to be invalid. Else prohibition from discrimination on the basis of race and religion in public accommodation would be invalidated if somebody said “I don’t want to be around black people so I don’t want them in my business.” and citing the First Amendment and freedom of association. That’s obviously not the case.
Also, the Court has ruled that simply selling something to somebody is not association in and of itself.
This is a lawsuit based on a hypothetical that MIGHT happen at some point in the future where she MIGHT suffer an alleged harm to her rights.
Just because the group that prays with members of SCOTUS are funding her business & created this lawsuit is no reason to think we’re being manipulated.
I have a deeply held belief that religious folk are/and protect those who abuse children. My belief isn’t “special” enough to be able to refuse them service or post a no christians sign on my business, but my right to get married is STILL up for debate and requiring the approval of those people.
Why do Quakers have to pay taxes?
A majority of tax money pays for the war machine and IIRC Quakers have a deeply held belief to not support war.
Why can’t Muslims force pork to be removed from grocery stores?
Are their deeply held beliefs less worthwhile & not deserving of the same protections?
Why are we so loathe to examine these “deeply held beliefs”? If your faith demands X,Y,Z why the fsck does it always come down to they only need to demand that teh gays need to be told they aren’t human enough to get the same rights as others?
The text claims adultery is a big nono… yet they whole heartedly embrace an adulterer to lead them.
They claim their beliefs mean to protect children teh gays need to be controlled…
Drag queens arrested this week for diddling kids = 0
Pastors arrested this week for diddling kids = 10 give or take
I highly doubt the founding fathers ever intended for a religious group to gain the right to demand the entire nation be forced to live under their ideals but hey they now have control over a majority of reproductive decisions women are allowed to have their local politicians make for them.
There might not be any atheists in foxholes, but there is hardly any belief in these alleged deeply held beliefs beyond finding a cover for hate.
I mean Hobby Lobby was so deeply opposed to birth control they invested the employee pension fund heavily into a company that produced birth control. They hate birth control & it conflicts with their beliefs when its only not making them money?
Their deeply held beliefs got them to fund terrorism by purchasing stolen/looted artifacts… I swear I remember some nearly homeless people who went to prison for providing aid to terrorists why they borrowed money from the CI to buy an apple gift card for ISIS.
But hey deeply held beliefs means never having to face the punishments others get for the same damn thing.
SCOTUS likes going back to the 1800’s to find precedents they care about, lets remember under those laws these heathen should be gathered up, punished, & forced to convert to fit into society.
Or perhaps its time to look at the intent, that the government was never to pick a single religion to force all citizens to join & not to make laws to appease a single religion…
Maybe I’m wrong, but in my defense I’m REALLY fscking tired of these poor religious people claiming I am a pedophile dog fucker & getting laws to protect their right to treat me like shit.
If you insert African American into her case, would it be different?
How about Jews, Muslims, Women, Disabled
If your deeply held beliefs include the proper way to care for slaves in your holy book it might be time to ask why they seem to only want to follow the deeply held beliefs that allow them to treat other humans like shit while ignoring all of the other teachings.
I look forward to the Theocracy voting to make me a 3rd class citizen again, where my rights don’t matter in the face of some assholes deeply held beliefs that only ever matter when they want to deny someone the right to feel human.
Re: Hundreds in Lancaster prison, three hung in the Boston Commons
Why do Quakers have to pay taxes?
A majority of tax money pays for the war machine and IIRC Quakers have a deeply held belief to not support war.
Quakers don’t have to pay taxes for war, and some never do. But they do pay the consequences, usually forced poverty.
P.S. Aubrey Elenis has never built any website
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If exercising a right comes with government-enforced negative consequences, then it either isn’t a right or the government is infringing upon it.
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Well then the First Amendment is not a right.
The First Amendment is not absolute.
Public accommodation is defined as any business that is frequented by the general public, No public accommodation can discriminate regardless of first amendment protection.
Public accommodations include, but are not limited to, retail stores, rental establishments, and service establishments as well as educational institutions, recreational facilities, and service centers. hotels, motels, bed and breakfasts.
This case presents an interesting issue. If she advertised to the general public and the general public has used her services then she is likely a public accommodation.
The issue is that the supreme court has to determine what the definition of a public accommodation is across the board. One can easily see that her business is potentially frequented by the general public, regardless of free expression or artistic endeavor.
Free expression and artistic endeavor does not exempt you from being a public accommodation.
If you are open to the general public, you are a public accommodation.
Otherwise, you could never expect to get a good and service that you expected to get because you would always be concerned that some bigot out there would throw the first amendment in your face.
The First Amendment is not absolute.
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You are operating under the assumption that the First Amendment requires some sort of adherence to any particular religious text.
Religious viewpoints need to have no basis in any organized religion.
That is why the courts have consistently ruled that freedom of religion and other First Amendment. Freedoms are not a valid basis for discriminating against other people and depriving them of their rights, constitutional or otherwise.
It is for the very reason you pointed out, all the inconsistency by which people utilize First Amendment arguments for religious freedom. As a basis to act as a bigot. There are literally an infinite number of religious viewpoints. Perhaps not with respect to the current population of the earth, but as religious viewpoints can change like the wind. There are a lot more than 8 billion religious viewpoints. None are identical.
Freedom to be a wackadoodle religious nutcase does that mean that you can use your wackadoodle religious views, however, benign or extreme to infringe on my rights whether they’re provided by the constitution or provided by the states.
Re: Re:
Perhaps if it wasn’t just 1 religious group who time after time after time after time after time who is accommodated at the expense of the rights of others.
One key reason it doesn’t belong here is because there appears to be evidence that the web designer in fact does provide design services to gay clientele; the issue in this case is only that she does not want to code websites celebrating gay weddings she does not wish to celebrate (or, indeed, potentially any even heterosexual wedding she also does not wish to celebrate), and regardless of the sexual orientation (or race, or religion, etc.) of the party
If it was a case of refusing to serve gay clients at all I could see the state having grounds to step in and telling her to either suck it up or find another business but if she’s just refusing to create custom sites for gay weddings that seems to veer into expressive content and therefore first amendment territory, and as such for the sake of non-bigots that’s probably something the state shouldn’t be involved in because if one state can say ‘You will create a pro-gay marriage site’ another could just as easily say ‘You will create an anti-gay marriage site’.
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Let’s try this thought experiment:
Do you think the above is reasonable and protected by the first amendment?
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Is the chef making a custom meal requested by the gay couple? If so, then forcing the chef to follow the request as given would be implicitly (and weakly) compelling speech in favor of gay couples. Is the meal the couple ordered instead taken from the menu? If so, then there is no compelled speech because the expression in making the meal has nothing to do with the gayness of the couple.
Re: Re: Re:
Brainfart on my part. I meant to write “interracial couple” instead of “gay couple”. Otherwise, that doesn’t change my response.
Separately, addendum: the First Amendment case in favor of the couple might be too weak if there’s no way a readonable person could construe the manual arrangement of the custom meal to imply support of gayness.
I still don’t understand the implications of the Masterpiece Cakeshop decision. Ignoring Masterpiece Cakeshop, I would interpret the First Amendment as follows: unless my shop marketing or branding materials explicitly say that I don’t serve gay people (freedom of association), then a gay couple can force me to make a cake saying “Happy anniversary” but not “Happy anniversary, [Name of partner 1] and [Name of partner 2]”. The latter would implicitly celebrate a gay marriage because names are an important part of identity. My current, possibly faulty, understanding of the Masterpiece Cakeshop decision is that even the former (forcing me to make a simple, unassuming “Hapoy anniversary for a gay couple”) would be unacceptable.
Re: Re: Re:2
I would say let’s nuance it a little bit.
Public accommodations law say that if you open a digital or brick and mortar facility that members of the general public can frequent. And, you set yourself forth as providing goods and services to the general public without reservation. And furthermore, you have delivered or intend to deliver items of goods and services that you purvey to members of the general public.
You qualify as a public accommodation under the law.
If you are a public accommodation, saying that you’re going to discriminate against people and use the first amendment as protection on your advertising doesn’t help. It’s illegal, you can’t do it.
The only way is to not be a public accommodation which means be private. Do not accept money or sell things to the general public. You could only have word of mouth and take only accepted commissions if you’re an artist. You don’t have a place of business that the general public gets access to. And you do not sell to the general public.
If you meet all those conditions you can discriminate all you want.
But the minute that you open for business as a public (public hear means generally accessible to the public, regardless of whether it is a privately owned company or even rented) place that allows entry to all and sundry, whether that’s a website or a building or even your own home, regardless of whether you advertise that you don’t provide services to a specific group of people, that’s a public accommodation and you can’t discriminate.
You cannot discriminate using the First Amendment as a basis under federal law. Unfortunately sexual orientation is not covered. Perhaps marital status is so she would fail on the federal law. I don’t know if they brought that up in arguments.
But artistic expression is not an element of federal public accommodation law as defined in the 1964 civil rights act as extended to today or in the public accommodation laws of Colorado and the other states.
Making it an issue about free expression. Artistic expression is a red herring. It’s window dressing made out of whole cloth by Fox News.
Everything hinges on whether she is a public accommodation, and whether Colorado’s public accommodation laws can restrict free speech against more protected classes than the federal law.
The basis for restricting free speech with respect to public accommodation is settled law unless this court is angling to overturn the 1964 Civil Rights Act, But I expected that’s not going to happen because it would be a disaster.
Re: Re:
The chef in question would be refusing to offer the same service to interracial couples as they do for non-interracial couples(food), a service that was not ‘custom’ beyond ordering from the menu everyone has or involved specific speech beyond perhaps the ‘artistry’ of how the food was presented and as such wouldn’t really involve the first amendment.
The rose and especially the card on the other hand would be a deliberate expression of support from the chef to select individuals in a specific situation and as such likely would involve the first amendment, with whether they choose to hand them out or not protected expression.
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It has nothing to do about refusing, whatever, whatever and artistry.
As I posted earlier, a private chef can discriminate all he wants.
If your business is open to the general public and you sell to the general public, then you cannot discriminate. You are a public accommodation. Restaurants are specifically identified as a public accommodation.
All this b******* about artistry and artistic expression is just that bullshit!
There is no exemption for businesses that include a component of free expression to be exempted from first amendment restrictions under public accommodation law.
I don’t know how free expression got conflated with artistic expression. You can freely express a sign behind your counter that says we don’t serve blacks, but guess what? You can’t do that. It’s illegal under public accommodation law.
Your freedom to express yourselves and your freedom to associate with people is restricted in the furtherance of the public good by the enactment of public accommodations laws.
Does anyone hear want to go to a small booty hotel that you reserved a room at and when you show up the Muslim owners realize you’re Christian because you have a crucifix around your neck and they deny you a room?
For all you freedom of religion idiots out there, that’s exactly the same case as here. Why should there be any difference between a hotel that sells space in a room for a night or two and a business that sells a website. You’re arguing that artistic expression is more important than religious freedom.
If you sell stuff to the general public, you can’t discriminate.
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That has nothing to do with 1A. Next.
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No actually the issue boils down to whether she qualifies as a public accommodation under the Constitution.
Or to put it another way, can Colorado make her a public accommodation?
The civil Rights act of 1964 codifies what a public accommodation is – and basically it’s any business regardless of whether it provides a public or service and regardless of whether the business owner utilizes creative or artistic expression in direct preparation of goods or services that is open to and patronized by the general public.
Private clubs were specifically exempted from the 1964 civil rights act, public accommodation law.
This has since been extended to not just a brick and mortar facility as a business, but also a digital place of business.
Colorado’s law is much more restrictive of free speech than the 1964 civil rights act. The protected classes are much more numerous under Colorado law and several other state laws.
However the definition of what a public accommodation is basically the same as the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
What’s at issue here is that the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that first amendment protections must be balanced by First Amendment restrictions and furtherance of the public good.
Public accommodation laws have been historically counted as part of provisions in law that support the public good. In the same way that you can’t yell fire in a crowded theater, public accommodation laws allow people to be able to purchase the goods and services that they expect to be able to purchase as advertised and not be presented with a First Amendment wall that hides bigotry.
Public accommodation laws allow for people to get all manner of goods and services regardless of the content of artistic expression without worrying that they will be discriminated against based on their gender, age, marital status, race, creed, religion, sexual orientation, national origin, and possibly more.
And to answer the question in advance: no a business owners First Amendment rights do not Trump the public good with respect to anti-discrimination laws. Nobody forced her to decide to go into business as a website designer. She can create websites all day long and discriminate all she wants regarding who she gives them to.
However once she decided to go into business open the place of business that the general public can frequent, that the general public has frequented whether in person or digitally, that she has sold such goods and services to the general public without previous reservation, the public good and the expectation that goods will be delivered from a business that advertises them supersedes her first amendment rights.
Honestly if she was that worried about gay marriage, she should have gone into a business that she never would have had to worry about gay marriage.
Do I think a web designer that doesn’t advertise publicly doesn’t have a place of business that is open to the public and only takes works based on accepted commissions is a public accommodation? NO!
Do I believe the woman in question who advertised publicly, has a place of business that the general public can frequent (whether it is digital or brick and mortar), has provided websites across all manner of people even including gay people, a public accommodation? ABSOLUTELY 100%
The issue the Supreme Court has to resolve is what is the definition of a public accommodation because it has nothing to do with free expression of artistic endeavors. That’s window dressing it’s bullshit. That’s some crap that Fox News sold you.
The second issue aside from definition of public accommodation, is how far the individual states can restrict free speech based on public accommodation laws.
If she is a public accommodation, she and a hotel should be indistinguishable with respect to discrimination protected by free speech and none of us want to go to a hotel and have the hotelier refuse us accommodations with some flimsy first amendment protection. First of all that is so the law. No guest lodging including Airbnb and bread and breakfast. Can use the First Amendment as a protection against bigotry and discrimination.
The issue is the protected classes that are afforded protection from discrimination. Currently, the 1964 civil Rights act which is the basis for public accommodation laws does not prohibit protection for sexual orientation.
So the questions to be resolved are threefold, 1. What are the limitations to the states with respect to the protected classes that they can prohibit Discrimination against under public accommodation law.
Can a racist restaurant owner refuse to host celebrations for black people?
EOM
Re: Because of honestly held religious views, of course
EOM
Re: The last shelter
Law does not work by analogy.
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Nevertheless, the hypocrisy and intolerance of the LGBTQHA2Z+++ crowd is unrelenting.
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There’s nothing hypocritical or intolerant about not wanting to be discriminated against.
Re: There's nothing wrong with the paradox of tolerance
Hypocrisy is a valid criticism, but pulling the intolerance card will get you nowhere. A society truly tolerant of LGBTQ has to be intolerant of homophobia and transphobia. Intolerance of bigotry is a lesser evil than the bigotry itself.
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The problem is that anyone who is not themselves transsexual or homosexual gets declared phobic by the extremists. The result is that too many wind up intolerant of heterosexuals and cisgendered people. And the society as a whole ends up merely reversing roles, not ending intolerance.
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Two things.
Yes, because there are so many queer people openly expressing intolerance for all cishets everywhere, to the point where they’re trying to actively erase the existence of cishets~. That’s totally a widespread thing that’s happening~.
…Christ, read your own shit out loud and consider how ignorant that line you wrote sounds.
You must be smoking some really dank weed if you sincerely think society will ever treat cishets like it’s treated queer people.
Re: Re: Re:2 A is for Ambiguous
Or.. A as in apple.
People can label themselves any way they want.
There’s a funny meme going around that says:
Girl: I’m an Instagram model
Guy: I’m a soldier in Call of Duty
Gender illiteracy is weird. Just as vocabulary illiteracy is. Waving genitals around is already low-brow comedy.
Re: Re: Re:3
Unfortunately, people have been mocking the gender thing for quote a while.
Remember “I sexually identify as an attack helicopter” and “LGBTWTFBBQIT”? Not the Internet’s proudest moments, but while one can and should be understanding and all, honestly, there was, for a moment, a loud minority that insisted on having special genders and that went… into some truly wild places.
Even I don’t think I could keep up with people constantly changing their gender pronouns, sometimes on a daily or hourly basis at worst…
Re: Re: Re:4
And now we have a loud minority that wants to kill (or at least push out of society) all the people who “insist on having special genders”. Funny how treating people like shit for trying to figure out who they are turns into that sort of thing.
Re: Re: Re:4
If you’re lucky, you got to avoid somebody elses identity crisis.
Its easy not to waste any time or effort on anothers mystery gender vocabulary. They still call that a personal preference.
Fortunately, they still have people that don’t have any confusion about gender. Good thing for that.
Re: Re: Re:
… said nobody not on hallucinogens, ever.
Re: Re: Re:
Fortunately, your scenario doesn’t happen like that in practice.
And mind you, the world treats LGBT+ people, activists and their supporters like trash regardless of what their gender is.
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Re: Needs more popcorn
After reading the article I absolutely had to come here to see how liberals would justify censorship of ideas they dislike. The comments didn’t disappoint!
Kudos to Cathy Gellis for her insightful article.
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… said nobody capable of rational independent thought, ever.
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Yeah they rolled up on Kirk Cameron trying to have an indoctrination session with his new bible book for kids with weapons screaming how he was abusing the children…
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Kirk Cameron once made a movie where he kidnapped children and convinced them they had died and gone to heaven so that his mentally challenged sister could have kids to play with. He was supposed to be the good guy.
I’m not willing to allow such people to pretend they have the moral high ground.
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Well he is all upset that libraries aren’t taking up his offer to come in and read his jeebus propaganda book but gasp they will have Drag Queen Story Hours.
I get reality was the first victim, but its getting really thick in here.
Drag Queens read books to kids, the books are age appropriate.
Kids see Drag Queens as funny people in costumes, nothing more.
Statistically a child is safer with a Drag Queen than a pastor.
Drag Queens are not putting on sex shows & teaching the kids how to provide oral… they leave that job to pastors & those who protect those child molesters while screaming about imaginary threats.
These are the type of people who feel free to scream at a gay couple holding hands on the street, demanding to know why we have to shove it in their face meanwhile a straight couple is sucking face in a much bolder display and no complaints heard.
In their minds teh gays (GLBTQ+&@#^@*#&^ et al.) are sex incarnate.
A gay couple kisses & they act like the couple had sex.
A trans person tries to use the bathroom, OMG ITS A RAPIST!
The women are made because their husbands keep telling them they are watching the girl on girl videos on porn hub as research to stop the lesbians.
We are still humans, but they refuse to accept that.
We have to be an other so they have something to hate while worshiping a god that says love one another.
They get to kill children in the name of god.
They send their children to be tortured in the name of god.
They throw their children into the street on their own in the name of god.
If god commands them to do this to CHILDREN, why the fuck are we offering them any extra protections?
Re:
[Projects facts not in evidence]
Are we sure...
It was my understanding that the Colorado law would force her to sell a web site she already made to anyone. Not force her to make a custom website for anyone.
Re: CO law
I don’t think the law itself is so limited. Some justices did explore whether the law might be ok if she really was selling a cookie cutter website that people could buy and customize, and maybe the answer is yes, because at that point she’s done all the expression she’s going to do and no more. Like, if an author sells a book that the customer doodles on, the author wouldn’t have standing to object to being associated with the message of the doodle.
But here the plaintiff fears being forced to continue to create more expression, so it would be more like being able to force a ghostwriter to continue to write a book for you.
Luke 6:37, Matthew 7:1
Do not Judge. It has other Concepts but lets look at it.
For all the people who Voted for the better of 2 evils? I dont think the NEW testament Judges Much compared to the OLD. What is Judged is a persons Soul and Good and Evil. NOT the Personal actions of 2 people.
If the person were to Judge against all of the bible, She would not have Much business. She could never do business with a Woman.
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Oh we don’t follow that part any more… none of the old stuff… except that whole gays are icky & we shoudl murder them portion
I know well that this is going to result in a civil and respectful gathering of ideas and perspectives.
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I don’t usually disagree with Techdirt on something, since I’m on the same political end as the website. But for someone who’s openly pansexual (as well as questioning his gender) and would even die on a hill defending queer rights, it has to be this. I think the argument being made here is fundamentally wrong. This case is indefensible; it’s not an opinion, it’s a fact. It is built on bigotry and it would just green light even more bigotry. Just because we have the freedom to speak and the freedom of religion does not mean the freedom to discriminate. This isn’t just written into the Constitution, this is just basic human decency. This case opens up the floodgate of discrimination potentially everywhere to refuse people based on “religious beliefs.” If you don’t see how utterly irredeemable this line of thinking is, just replace the words “gay” with “black.” This isn’t a situation of “this case is wrong, but…” this is just a case that is simply, fundamentally wrong, nothing more.
why would you want them to?
You could force them to make a web design, but then they could make it total crap and what can you do about that? Only hire people that want to work.
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Now make it a Nurse with deeply held beliefs that stop her from giving medicine to a gay.
Now make it a pharmacist with deeply held beliefs that the morning after pill is a sin.
Now make it a cop with deeply held beliefs that keeps him from investigating who burned down the gay church.
Now make it…
Deeply held beliefs are the QI for the religious set, but only SOME religious types.
The text they cite didn’t say what they claim it did for a couple thousand years, but magically when they decided they needed a new group to hate (those pesky Negroes got rights somehow) magically homos are the new devils that would drag them to hell if they did their fscking job, meanwhile if anyone else has a deeply held belief that Catholics have covered up child abuse for decades so they don’t want to work with them… thats a fucking crime in this country.
A Rep. stood in Congress in tears because a law required all states to recognize legal marriages & didn’t offer 100 more carve outs where those with deeply held beliefs can then freely discriminate against other citizens who allegedly have the same rights but the law protects bigotry and hate as long as its religious in basis (even if that basis keeps changing over time & they do not uphold any other tenants of their deeply held beliefs).
Some stupid mfers believe the bible tells them man walked with dinosaurs, and they can push that idea on schools to teach to children but if we call them stupid mfers thats a crime suppressing their deeply held beliefs.
Their deeply held beliefs only seem to matter when they want to erase or shove down those they fear.
They pretend that a book about growing up gay being in a library will infect children with teh gay, we know it doesn’t work that way… look how the bible hasn’t infected any of them with the concept of love one another.
Re: Re: This is about your choice too!
Honestly, would you want a nurse giving you aid that didnt want to? “That shot didnt hurt did it? Oh dont be such a baby”. Personally Id rather switch to a nurse that doesnt hate me, unless it was such an emergency that there was no choice.
Re: Re: Re:
It means they aren’t qualified to be a nurse any more than the pro-plaguers were.
Re: Re: Re:
Of course if you’re in a life or death moment when she decides her deeply held beliefs trumps providing aid…
A woman had her contraception fail, the local pharmacist decided he was opposed to plan b and wouldn’t sell it to her. She had to travel a great distance to finally obtain it.
While you might want a different nurse who doesn’t hate you when they are the only professional in the job for 100 miles, still want to be at their whim for every little thing that offends their deeply held beliefs?
Do you feel your prescriptions will be accurately filled?
Why should ANYONE have to consider if it offends their beliefs they have a right to not do their job?
Some wackjobs feel IVF is an affront to god, but to not offend their deeply held beliefs might mean passing a law outlawing it for everyone.
This isn’t merely protecting them from being offended, this is them demanding a special legal right to sit in judgement of other people who can’t do a single fscking thing about it because the law protects them not others.
Ever since they got the camels nose in the tent they have pulled in the whole fscking herd of camels all telling us how we have to respect THEIR beliefs while they get to ignore our rights & beliefs that differ from theirs.
Its a federal crime to deny them service for being religious fsckheads like if they were a minority.
People can’t change their skin color on a whim but magically these people can change religions every other day & still get to invoke their beliefs as a shield to be shit people.
One might notice that their deeply held beliefs ALWAYS are about gays icky you can’t make me.
That there book says some not so nice things about others in the nation that they seem to have no “deeply held beliefs” about. (Of course THOSE people have the same protections these imaginary skyfreind fuckers enjoy so the battle will be a draw.)
They don’t believe in abortion in their religion, magically this is now a law across the country that NO ONE can offer up a reason for the state to get into each womans uterus across the nation but they are in there claiming a victory for jeebus.
Where the fsck is our protection from having religion FORCED upon us?
Your beliefs say no abortion, cool you can honor that but you shouldn’t be allowed to force everyone else to follow your beliefs.
These poor poor religious people having to deal with Christmas being under attack (Pagan Ritual they stole so they could force the Pagans to follow their religion) is so hard for them.
I mean in FL they refused to allow a Hanukkah presentation, while going full blast about Christmas…
Their justification was that if they did Hanukkah then they would have to let other holidays into the schools and ain’t no one have time for those heathens events that aren’t the saviors birthday.
Not only are they small minded bigots, they refuse to admit other religions should enjoy the same rights they’ve carved out for only themselves.
Re: Re: Re:2 No youre still ignoring my point
My point isnt about their choice. Its about your choice, and I specifically cited the case where it was not a life or death emergency, which of course website design isnt. Would you choose
A: a person that has empathy for you as a person
B: a person that is being forced to do the job because “its the principle of the thing”
And if you go for B then would you REALLY trust them to do their very best they are capable of? Come on. Of course you wouldnt. Be honest now.
Re: Re: Re:3
Maybe it would be A…
But then churches need to pay fucking taxes to cover their demanding the law protect them & not others.
You want to boil this down to 1 web designer, but I’m here to point out that its NEVER 1 fucking thing with these people.
This is the easy lay-up, and soon they will be raining down 3 pointers that gays can’t live within 1000 yards of a church or a school because of beliefs.
While it would be wonderful to think this is an isolated case, a hate group that turned itself in a church to hide donors & dodge tazes, sets in motion a nothing burger case that makes it a little easier to accept the next case & the next case…
I’m not ending up in a camp without a fight.
Tell me I’m being to extreme and I’ll have to point out the number of time politicians of faith decided we coudl solve all the problems by rounding up the faggots and putting us on islands or in camps.
I think the Japanese Americans of a certain age would also like to have a word with you about how letting 1 little thing go leads to so much worse from those god fearing xenophopbic assholes.
Re: Re: Re:
Honestly, would you want a nurse giving you aid that didnt want to?
If that’s what we can expect from people in health care due to what their beliefs are telling them, I’d postulate the real problem is that their beliefs aren’t worthy of the respect they think they are.
Cultureless Computing 2.0 Paradigm
If it was a template design, its simply selling a template and printing out a list of “culture specific” services as a referral to a specialized business to handle any requests (baker, web design or any other creative business where preferences would even matter).
The cultureless computing 1.0 paradigm already happened. Nothing unique about it. Chatgpt/bots, no-code designs, overpopulated social networks…. Its just tools and outlets for someone else.
The Internet is rife with factory farming density diseases that are culture secific anyways.
Their body, their problem. Its that simple.
Doesn't make sense
I’m trying to make sense of the arguments in this article, but they just don’t add up for me.
Forst, to get ripeness out of the way. If this case is ripe, there is absolutely no reason law’s like the Texas SB8 from last year shouldn’t be ripe before abortion providers were already shutting down.
But further, it seems the idea of the argument is that web design is speech while serving coffee is not, and therefore public accommodation doesn’t protect people from being discriminated. But the law isn’t making the designer speak, rather that they help others to speak – regardless if they agree with the message. The example in the article is actually apt, would a typesetter working at a printing press be able to refuse to set certain articles written by journalists and edited by editors?
The webdesigner isn’t expressing the views of the client in the same way that they don’t own the copyright to the material if they were commissioned to do the design as work for hire. The typesetter is not exercising editorial discretion, they are doing work for hire. It can be creative work but it’s not editorial discretion. The typesetter isn’t speaking.
In the same way, it’s not the webdesigner that is speaking, so public accommodation principles would indicate that it’s perfectly reasonable for the law to prevent the designer from discriminating against certain protected viewpoints.
Re:
Because designing a web site requires creative decisions, colors, layout, fonts etc. Serving coffee is a purely mechanical process. Therefore the two are different.
Re: Re:
That’s the part where there seems to be disagreement. As complicated as web design appears from the outside, and can be when building a truly unique website from scratch, a wedding webpage is almost always plug and play of names, date, pictures, etc. into a pre-existing template maybe with some tweaking of colors to the customers’ preference. And in the case of most wedding website designers, I’d be shocked if they didn’t just buy or download the templates from a third party.
Where’s the “speech” of the web designer when the customer is specifying colors, text, pictures to use, and picking a pre-existing template? This is not a sub-industry that requires nor allows significant creative freedom.
Re: Re:
The barrista makes a heart or a tree in my coffee without my input – the web designer designs under my editorial (and creative) control.
In the end, they are doing whatever creative activities they are doing as work for hire, not as independent authors. The typesetter might be very creative but it’s the publisher that is responsible for the speech.
Re: Re:
Yeah, about that…lotsa outrage from people about being denied service at a Virginia restaurant because of their anti-LGBTQIA+ views. The restaurant says the group makes the staff feel uncomfortable.
The group cites their religious views being discriminated against (despite identifying as a political group).
Should staff be required to ‘mechanically’ serve people who think they have no right to exist and are an abomination in the eyes of their ‘loving’ ‘god?’
If so, why would they have to endure discrimination based on their sexual orientation so that these god-folks don’t get their panties in a not for not being able to hate queers freely?
Re: Re: Re:
Yes. If I’m a racist and I walk into a Black-owned McDonalds and order a Big Mac, they are required to serve me.
However, if I spew racist rhetoric at them and/or other customers while I’m there, they can kick me out.
Re: The copyright issue actually cuts the other way
“The webdesigner isn’t expressing the views of the client in the same way that they don’t own the copyright to the material if they were commissioned to do the design as work for hire. The typesetter is not exercising editorial discretion, they are doing work for hire. It can be creative work but it’s not editorial discretion. The typesetter isn’t speaking.”
Unless clearly specified in the contract, the web designer WOULD own the copyright in the website. In fact, people get copyright in their web designs all the time because law recognizes them as expressive enough to qualify. So if it is expressive enough to qualify for copyright, how could it not also be expressive enough to get First Amendment protection? (And even if the contract did make it a work for hire, it would only give the client the copyright, not obviate the copyrightability, because copyright law still inherently sees websites as expressive.)
This was a lawsuit designed-by-committee. There was no interaction between this woman and a gay couple that spurred it on. And even if their was, she still would deserve to lose. They want the religiously-motivated right to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people.
I’m a Bisexual person living in Texas. My rights are continuously on the chopping block. I am tired of the argument that we need to let others get away with being allowed to discriminate against us and treat us like we don’t deserve to exist.
Re: It absolutely was a lawsuit dreamed up by cynical, hateful people. HOWEVER...
It absolutely was a lawsuit dreamed up by cynical, hateful people. HOWEVER, if the Court manages to refuse to take the bait to codify their hate and instead focuses just on the speech angle, the irony is that it could produce a decision that will ultimately help better protect everyone’s rights (including those who need to be able to speak out against discrimination).
Re: Re:
The court as a bigoted majority that took up this bigoted concern because they want to increase bigots’ abilities to be bigoted.
Even if they thread the needle that you want them to thread, we’d still get people discriminating via religion through a decision rooted in secular “logic”. It would be a false and hollow equality where thanks to the systemic bigotry and power dynamics, queer people like me would not have truly equal footing to the people who want me to not exist.
Re: Re: Re: It's not secular logic
No, you’d actually get a rule that would better protect you (vulnerable people are the people who most needs their rights, including expressive rights, to be protected). Also, and I didn’t get into this, but it would blow up in their faces and actually make it harder for the terrible MAGA states (FL, TX, etc.) to require the preferring of hateful speech. That’s what’s really at stake here, not Colorado’s interest in defending the discriminated but the bad states’ ability to add to the discrimination.
Re: Re: Re:2
You’re missing my point. Due to systemic bigotry and power dynamics, queer people like me would not have truly equal footing. Her right to discriminate is increased, while my right to expression stays the same, if not diminished because the bigots that funded and organized this whole sham then use it as a wedge to keep chipping away at my rights. Because that’s what this really is; a way to make hatred and marginalization of me and other LGBTQ+ folks into something legal.
Why would the court that overturned Roe v. Wade and wants to overturn Obergefell v. Hodges make it more difficult for MAGA states to engage in hate, anyway? You give the bigots on the Supreme Court far too much credit and leeway.
Re: Re: Re:3 The way the math plays out
I can’t dispute that bigots will use every right they have to discriminate. But what I can say is that the only way the people they hurt have any chance to stand against them is by making sure, at least on paper, they have equally strong rights. If those rights are weakened, then by the same math you observed, the bigots will manage to be fine, but the people they hurt will end up at their disadvantage. The reason she needs to win is to make sure that doesn’t happen to the people she wants to hurt.
Re: Re: Re:4
I know that, if she wins on the narrowly-defined parameters you specified for the “right” form of bigotry to be allowed, this would happen: If I got into website design and decided that I wouldn’t allow straight couples to use my services for weddings, which should supposedly be protected, I would be taken to court and lose even though I’d have the same rights “on paper”, because that’s how our bigoted institutions work.
But again: The odds that the needle for your favored decision gets threaded are slim because the court has a bigoted majority and will go for the most punishing version.
Again: Why do you trust the Supreme Court to get this “right” when they’re openly and brazenly doing the bidding of scumbags? Why do you lend this current Supreme Court any sort of legitimacy?
Re: Re: Re:5 It's not just this case
First, while I agree the Supreme Court has lost its legitimacy, I would actually like them to get it back. Half the point of this post was articulating the right roadmap for them to follow to find in her favor, because if they either don’t, or, find for her, but for the wrong reasons, it will further undermine them and rule of law for everyone.
Secondly, there are many other cases that will hinge on the result of this one. It really, really, really isn’t just about her or gay rights generally. It’s about everyone’s free speech in a ton of other contexts.
Re: Re: Re:6
This current makeup of the Supreme Court is not the one that will get that legitimacy back. It is a Supreme Court with a bigot majority that will only listen to bigots. This is the Supreme Court whose current majority overturned Roe. Stop giving this Supreme Court any faith or benefit of the doubt; you’re just wasting your time.
Re: Re: Re:7
Funny, how ignorant people are to the constitution when discussing law.
The Supreme Court ruled constitutionally in overturning Roe. Any power (or law) not resting in congress is granted to the state.
Roe is one of the few wide-reaching grants of freedom with no constitutional standing. The original decision violated the constitution.
Congress has had a LONG time to create proper grant of right
If you’re mad over the roe reversal, blame those you voted into office!
Like it or not, this court is the closest we have come to a clean constitutional court in a long time.
They are not making bigotry based decisions: they are simply not allowing themselves to respond to social-political atmosphere in decisions.
The Supreme Court cannot and must not dictate to the states with lack of congressional act.
Re: Re: Re:8
If you truly believe that this court has been neutral or “clean constitutional”, then I feel sorry for you.
A large number of people lost their reproductive rights when Roe was overturned. It was a politically-motivated decision to overturn Roe and increase bigoted Christian patriarchal domination.
With how heated and devisive the issue of abortion had been and still is, they really didn’t. This argument of yours reminds me of how the people who parrot telecom talking points say “Get Congress to codify Net Neutrality!” when they know that the true Net Neutrality enforcement that people want isn’t something that Congressional rulemaking would be able to provide. A Congressional move to codify abortion rights would face a nightmare of carveouts and loopholes to provide people with the right to abortion in name only.
The best option was to leave Roe as it was, acknowledging its tenuous constitutionality but also acknowledging that the decision expanded the reproductive rights of countless folks and was a good thing.
Re: Re: Re:9
You’re constitutionally wrong! You’re legally wrong. Roe was a blatant violation of the rights of states. One outside the authority and ability of the court.
They most certainly did. All you need is a congressional majority and a willing president. That has happened many times since Roe.
Like many decisions over the last 65 years… this was not tenuous, it was flippantly unconstitutional.
The best option was to pass law that would lock the right down. 5 times since roe congress could have passed an amendment with ease and did not.
You can be upset all you want that the court is acting within the constitutional limits it has always had and long ignored. But they are not the cause of the localised loss of abortion rights in some states.
Re: Re: Re:10
The rights of people to be able to get abortions and choose to do what they want with their own bodies is more important than the rights of states to force those people to give birth to a child they don’t want.
Please, tell us, what other laws do you think the Supreme Court should overturn? Because the way you go about talking about the Supreme Court and “States’ Rights”, I bet you’d love to see them overturn Obergefell…
Yeah, they are, because they made the decision to overturn Roe.
Re: Re: Re:11
Not according to our constitution. Maybe elect people with a spine to make a law or amendment.
My track record is quite clear. I refuse to recognise any legal protection on the term marriage, a religious sourced term. The practice should never be recognised by rational people. The term should be abolished as a violation of separation of church and state.
As for your abilities for a civil domestic partnership? Tie the knot with your goat or tree for all I care.
I’m neither republican nor conservative. State’s rights are more important than your party pandering and moral crusading.
Re: Re: Re:12
“Not according to our constitution”
Out of curiosity, which part of your constitution says that a woman becomes less of a viable human being than an embryo, even if it risks her life to bring it to term? Is it the same one that says a person can’t take your organs if you didn’t sign a donor card?
“I refuse to recognise any legal protection on the term marriage, a religious sourced term”
Yes, we agree you’re too stupid to understand that the concept predated any religion, let alone the one you’re thinking of. Also, given that things like child brides, polygamy, etc. have been supported by religion well before the US was founded I’d be careful about what you support here.
“The term should be abolished as a violation of separation of church and state.”
I’m not sure how it works where you are, but in my experience there’s literally 2 things relating to marriage – a religious one and a secular one. You can get married if you’re not religious. You can get married in a church, refuse to sign any legal documents and not have any secular right.
“As for your abilities for a civil domestic partnership? Tie the knot with your goat or tree for all I care.”
Good for you. Not so much for someone who gets married in one state, then moves to another where it’s not recognised. Aren’t you all about the glory of the united states? If so, why do you want 50 different incompatible rules for something as basic as human relations?
At the end of the day, marriage is both secular and religious, same as the Christmas holiday. You don’t have to go to church to celebrate Santa, you don’t have to go there to commit to a life partner.
Re: Re: Re:13
What part of the constitution guarantees an abortion? Congress has had multiple chances to enshrine that. Congress should have done so. Instead we get puss-ants more worriers about their political futures.
Actuality, it didn’t. Monogamy was/is a religious exercise (or a moral enforcement) outside of rare cases. It goes against nature.
The term originates from religious documentation. May want to read up on the entomology
Federal law is set by congress, by act and by constitution. Absent federal law, as grant or restriction, the state has the sole right of governance.
Is a religious term. Hence the mentally deficient posting bumper stickers about keeping christ in christmas.
Personally I celebrate harvest and Jul, the season of harvest.
While mythologists have connected Jul to local religious practices, the term literally means bounty.
Nice try though.
Re: Re: Re:8
As lostcause proves by demonstrating his ignorance with the sentences that follow.
Re: Re: Re:9
It is unfortunate you don’t understand the formation of our republic, and the respect for the right of the union of states.
It's a work made for hire, not the website designer's speech
There’s no compelled speech here. If the website designer creates the website it’s a work made for hire, and any speech involved is by the customer hiring the worker, not the worker herself.
Isn't this a public accommodations thing?
How is this different to something like Masterpiece Cakeshop* or Arlene’s Flowers? Cake decorating and flower arranging are clearly just as expressive as website design, especially if your clients are providing the copy and you’re not being asked to personally draft a loving testimonial to the couple. Nobody is going to interpret a couple’s wedding website as the personal views of the person who coded it up. I doubt you’re arguing for the elimination of public accommodations laws, so where’s the line you want to draw on which businesses are allowed to refuse service to protected classes and which aren’t?
*Which found in favour of MC because the original decision against them was specifically hostile to a particular religious viewpoint – the Supreme Court never really decided whether it was a first amendment issue. RGB’s dissent certainly seemed happy to entertain the idea that cake decorating is an expressive activity, but is nevertheless covered by anti-discrimination laws.
I disagree. Speech and the First Amendment are red herrings.
Regulation of commerce and civil rights laws prohibit businesses from treating customers different due to various characteristics, including, in this case, sexual orientation and gender. It’s the cost of doing business.
Smith is offering a service to the public in commerce; it’s no different than operating a lunch counter or a motel. It’s no different than if Alice operates a photography studio who is willing to take photos of Bob, who is White, but refuses to take otherwise identical photos of Carol, who is Black, because Carol is Black.
If Smith doesn’t want to occasionally make a website for a customer due to her personal distaste or beliefs, she shouldn’t offer that particular service. So all she needs to do is to not make wedding websites commercially, while still doing birthdays or retirement parties or what have you (provided that she is willing to do so for all of her customers who hire her to do them).
To decide otherwise opens the door to bigotry of all stripes, which we know from historical example, will be widespread. Bigots will object to the infringement of many of their First Amendment rights, including free speech, religion, and association as bases for their despicable behavior and why it should be protected. And if we start to go down that road, where’s it end? If my religious beliefs prevent me from washing my hands or wearing a hairnet or gloves when I prepare food, why shouldn’t that give me an exception from health codes? If my right to free speech (and the right to refuse to speak) conflicts with my obligation to disclose hidden defects in residential property to a potential buyer, shouldn’t I be able to keep mum about the termite infestation and let the buyer beware? And what happens when we pit a right of association against the right to practice religion — if my business has a sign out front saying “No Catholics,” who should win that fight if the only thing that matters is the First Amendment?
While Smith is behaving this way due to an irrational animus, she’s free to think that and to espouse her beliefs. But her business is not free to discriminate just as it is not free to refrain from filing tax paperwork with the state, which is another form of speech she might oppose due to her sincerely-held beliefs. (If there isn’t already a Church of Greed that believes that financial privacy is sacrosanct as a religious tenet, it would not be hard to start one)
These are just things you have to put up with in the commercial sphere.
Re:
As I understand it, the issue is not the sexual orientation and/or gender of the clients. It’s the nature of the work requested.
Has this been tested in court? If Alice will take commissions from Bob for photos of Bob, and she also takes commissions from Carol for photos of Bob, but she won’t take a commission for photos of Carol from anyone, has Alice violated any laws?
Now we’re talking a matter of classification. How granular can you be? Is “heterosexual wedding website” different from “homosexual wedding website” such that one could offer one service but not the other, or can people not be any more specific than “wedding website?” Or is that too specific as well? Should the limitation just be “website?” What makes one level of specificity correct vs. another?
None of these things involve creative expression. If I am a writer, it should not be permissible to force me to write a book that I do not want to write. If I am a painter, it should not be permissible to force me to paint a picture I do not want to paint.
Now, all of that said, the information available to the creator does seem to be a factor. As another person posted, what if the message on the cake was “Happy Wedding Pat and Chris” – sex of the parties is unclear. Does the baker have any right to ask? If the baker is lied to and discovers the truth later, are they now somehow retroactively showing support? If a minor alteration to the cake is made after the fact, such as replacing the little bride figure on the cake with a second groom figure, is it still the baker’s speech? Similarly, what if I have the web designer build a site for a heterosexual wedding and then I change the pictures?
Re: Re:
No. If that were the case, she would simply be refusing to create wedding websites for anyone, and that would not be discriminatory. The issue is entirely based on the orientation / gender of the clients — she is willing to offer some clients the full range of services she provides, while refusing to offer all of those services to others. If a restaurant offered men anything on the menu, including meat, pasta, etc., but only offered to sell salads to women, that would clearly be discriminatory. Same thing here.
Why would Carol want a photo of Bob? She wants a photo of herself, just as Bob wanted a photo of himself.
She should not offer services to anyone that she’s unwilling to offer to everyone, at least with regard to the basis of legally protected classes, such as race, gender, national origin, sexual orientation, etc.
The level of granularity is up to her. If she’s willing to do a happy birthday website for everyone, then that’s fine. If she’s unwilling to do a happy wedding website for everyone, then she shouldn’t be doing them for anyone, and she’ll avoid running afoul of the law. No one has a right to compel her to make a wedding website for them, but people do have a right to compel her to not discriminate as to protected classes.
That’s irrelevant. Creative expression doesn’t give you a pass to discriminate in business matters. Suppose Alice opens a wedding dress shop but is super racist; she is willing to do elegant wedding dresses for anyone except black customers who are only offered a ragged Tarzan-style leopardskin loincloth. Clothing is a means of creative expression by the designer and the person wearing them, but that doesn’t excuse Alice for treating some customers differently than others on the basis of their race.
That was me — I was referencing the ‘Pat’ character from Saturday Night Live in the ’90s, and their special friend Chris. I believe they get married in the It’s Pat movie, but I’ve never seen it because it’s obviously awful.
The point is that Smith was totally willing to create wedding websites, so she doesn’t have a problem with that type of speech. She just refuses to do it for specific customers, based on protected characteristics of those customers. It’s not compelled speech, it’s just ordinary discrimination.
Re: Re: Re:
Again, I understand it differently, and maybe I’m just wrong about the facts of the case? I understand the case to be:
A restaurant offers both men and women anything on the menu, but salads aren’t on the menu. The men don’t ever ask for salads anyway, but a woman does and she claims discrimination if the restaurant won’t make her a salad.
The web designer offers websites to anyone. However, gay wedding websites aren’t on the menu. If I, a straight person, came to her and asked her to make a website for my gay brother’s wedding, she would say no. (If she said yes to me but not to him, it would absolutely be discriminatory against gay people.)
It’s not about the person, it’s about the work.
That’s not the same thing though. The work is different. If they both want a photo of an apple (Bob), that’s the same. If one wants a photo of an apple (Bob) and one wants a photo of an orange (Carol), that’s different work.
If I won’t take a photo of an orange because it’s Carol who’s asking, that’s not the same as refusing to take photos of oranges regardless of who asks.
To you, it seems, a heterosexual wedding website and a homosexual wedding website are in the same category. They’re all apples. That’s your level of granularity. To her, it seems, a heterosexual wedding website and a homosexual wedding website are not the same thing. Apples and oranges. That’s her level of granularity.
Then it seems she is choosing a level that says “I don’t take photos of oranges for anyone.”
Re: Re: Re:2
My understanding of the facts is this. Smith was running a website business, 303 Creative, in Colorado. She wanted to branch out into doing wedding announcement websites but didn’t want to make them for, let’s say, queer people.
She wanted to have a notice on her own website that said basically, ‘if you want a wedding announcement site for a queer wedding, go somewhere else.’
Before she put the notice up, or began doing wedding announcements, she learned that her entire course of action there would be illegal under Colorado antidiscrimination laws. So she sued the state to preemptively block their enforcement of the law before it had ever been enforced against her, and before anyone even asked her to make a queer wedding announcement website.
The matter has been in litigation ever since, and the courts have been consistently ruling against her.
So to comment on what you wrote about the analogy:
That would not be discrimination; no one has to make salads if they don’t want to. The issue is that whatever is on the menu, must be equally available to any customer, regardless of their race, gender, etc.
That is discrimination. Wedding websites are on the menu. But once she starts to factor in whether the wedding is a religious wedding or a civil wedding, whether the wedding is a Christian wedding or a Jewish wedding, whether the wedding is between people of the same race or is interracial, or whether the wedding is between people of opposite genders or the same gender — that’s where the discrimination creeps in.
So you are saying that a bigoted Atlanta-area motel owner who runs a whites-only motel is not engaged in discrimination when they refuse to rent a room to a black person, so long as they also refuse to rent a room to a white person on behalf of the black person who would actually be staying there for the night?
I think you’re having difficulty seeing the forest for the trees.
The request is the same: Take a photo of me, the customer.
They’re both weddings. They’re not just in the same category; they are the same in all respects. I suggest taking a look at Loving and Obergefell.
Basically, everyone has a fundamental right to marry. This right can only be limited for an extremely good reason, and only where the limit both advances that reason and isn’t overly restrictive.
So starting from the premise that anyone can marry, what restrictions are okay?
Well, consent is an important one — you should not be able to force someone else to marry you. This also bans marrying children, as minors are deemed too young to consent. Ditto animals, inanimate objects, and other stupid things that are oft mentioned in these sorts of discussions.
Consanguinity is an important one (i.e. you can’t marry too close of a relative, like a parent, sibling, or child), largely for issues involving consent (in such a relationship it’s difficult to believe one party wouldn’t be compelling the other) but also for reasons related to the health of children and other descendants. There is a lot of cultural taboo involved in this one though, I admit.
Marital status has been treated as an important reason (i.e. you can’t engage in bigamy or otherwise be married to more than one person at a time). Partly this is cultural taboo, partly this is related to the law not being even slightly prepared to handle complex marital arrangements as well as other side effects such as marital property, inheritances, medical proxies, etc. While I predict that this will eventually also be done away with, it will take a tremendous effort from a purely practical point of view. I don’t envy whoever gets stuck with it.
And traditionally there were other limitations: gender, race, religion, caste/social class, nationality, etc. We’ve done away with those, largely because they were based purely in cultural taboos which were seen as outdated, and because they were incompatible with protections for civil rights.
From Obergefell:
So yeah, the law no longer sees a distinction between same-sex and opposite-sex marriages; they’re identical. Smith is trying to treat two legally identical things differently, in a manner that is blatantly discriminatory in violation of state law. Trying to be clever about it doesn’t change the situation.
Re: Re: Re:3
No disagreement here.
“Take a photo of me, the customer” is an entirely valid way to frame the request. So is “Take a photo of this particular person.” Frame it your way and the requests are identical. Frame it my way and they’re not. You haven’t convinced me that your framing is the correct one, but I’m fine with admitting that my framing may not be the correct one either.
If this is true (and I’ll take your word for it, I generally find your posts pretty solid), then you’re right. She can’t be more granular than “wedding website” and she either has to make a wedding website, gay or otherwise… or she has to refuse to make any wedding website for anyone.
Re: Re: Re:4
I do not see any rational basis for drawing the line here. Should a web site author be required to write a web site for Illinois Nazi nuptuals, if she writes one for Jewish nuptuals?
Closer to home, should a newspaper columnist be obliged to write a column extolling the virtues of the County Manager, if he writes columns at all? Or should he be obliged to praise Illinois Nazis as a matter of fairness after he wrote a column likening them to the ``very fine people” of Virgina?
I am of the view that compelled speech is obnoxious. If the government wishes me to express a particular view, consistent with the First Amendment it has a few options: it can pay me, convince me of that view’s virtue, or go pound sand up its butt.
Re: Re: Re:5
Depends on what basis the author would seek to avoid doing so. If it’s because they don’t want to serve a client who is, say, a Christian, then no, that would be religious discrimination. On the other hand, if it’s because they’re an Illinois Nazi, that’s likely not a protected class. But in Colorado, gender and sexual orientation are protected classes.
The protected class v. non-protected class dichotomy comes up fairly often. A Whites-only restaurant isn’t permitted, but it’s fine to insist on customers wearing shirts and shoes, or in a fancy place, even ties and jackets.
No. And this has nothing to do with compelled speech. The newspaper columnist works for the newspaper and writes about their opinion or interesting information. They do not, presumably, invite customers to pay the columnist to write what the customer commissions them to write. That would be an advertisement, not a column.
But the newspaper, like any other business, can’t reject advertisers on just any old basis, such as race or national origin. And the newspaper (just like the website designer) can likely reject work based on content if unrelated to protected classes that they can’t professionally discriminate about. So an advertisement extolling fascism could be rejected (though I saw plenty of Republican ads during this last election anyway), as could a wedding website where the customer insisted on something that was aesthetically a bridge too far, like a flaming, spinning logo as one would have seen on a Geocities wedding website back in the 90s. But that sort of objection by the businessperson still won’t fly if it’s just a way to discriminate against a protected class.
I am of the view that bigotry is obnoxious and that no one has a right to engage in commercial activities free of all regulations.
If a business owner has a sincere, heartfelt belief every bit as strong and real as your own that they should be free to spit into food before serving it, or that they can lie on their tax returns (truthful returns would be compelled speech!), or that they can dump toxic waste on the street, or that they can refuse to serve Black people or Jewish people or queer people just based on their race, religion, or sexual orientation / gender, respectively, then I see no reason whatsoever to put up with that.
The owner will have to follow health codes, correctly report and pay their taxes, not pollute, and not discriminate. Or they can not be in business. Those are their options.
If they want more freedom than that, then they should limit their bad behavior to their personal life (although some things, like tax evasion and pollution will still not fly even then).
Re: Re: Re:5
That you have difficulty seeing the rationality is a “you” problem.
Re: Re: Re:5
Tell us you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about with… pretty explicitly telling us you have absolutely no clue what you’re talking about.
Re: Re: Re:5
“I do not see any rational basis for drawing the line here”
What are the parameters? Is Nazi a protected class, or is such imagery illegal under hate crime laws?
Does the site offer pre-designed templates or offer a complete bespoke solution? Have they been willing to offer the service to one set of couples but refuse to offer to another based purely on their status under a protected class?
“Closer to home, should a newspaper columnist be obliged to write a column extolling the virtues of the County Manager, if he writes columns at all? Or should he be obliged to praise Illinois Nazis as a matter of fairness after he wrote a column likening them to the “very fine people” of Virgina?”
Depends on the laws there. If “county manager” or “Illinois Nazi” are protected classes, then yes. If not, then opinion is still allowed.
By the way, “protected class” generally refers to “gender”, “race” or such, not a specific type. A black-owned paper or female-run paper would be as unable to denigrate you as you them. It’s just that historically one side has more power so abused it more.
“I am of the view that compelled speech is obnoxious.”
Which goes both ways. If you block my speech despite offering the service to the public, that’s as obnoxious as me forcing you. But, if you offer a service to the public, you’re the one accepting benefits of doing so in return for serving every member of the public. There’s good historical reasons why letting individual business owners pick and choose isn’t good. Take your business to a private club or offer to the whole public.
Re: Re: Re:6 protected class
Intersting question. I chose them specifically because in some cases,
* religion is a protected class, and so an anti-Jewish organization may qualify
* race is a protected class, and a white-supremeacist group at least presents problems
So if I refuse to serve the Nazis, it may be on the basis of religion.
If a restaurant refuses to serve the Illinois Nazis, it may be on the basis of race, in that allowing them in would be seen as discouraging persons of color, as would a ``white preferred” over the front door.
The same message might be conveyed by allowing Kluxers to sit near the door. The restaurant may run afoul of anti-discrimination laws because allowing such a thing might be viewed as a bare substitute for that ``white preferred” sign.
Re: Re: Re:3
Interesting that you quote ogberfell, because one of the bigoted jistices lied that “It’s unfair to compare this to denying sercives to Black people” while it’s already been declared that Obergefell is one of the next on the chopping block after Roe.
Re: Re: Re:4
The entire goal is to perform a mass human rights sacrifice upon the altar of Christofascism.
Re: Re: Re:2
Oof. You’re tying yourself in knots trying to make a point. You can’t narrowly define your business in discriminatory terms.
Do you get it yet?
There is absolutely nothing in a wedding website design (you know, the part that requires so much creativity it needs protection as the business owner’s “freedom of speech”) that makes it fundamentally for a “straight” or a “gay” couple. If you took a straight couple’s and a gay couple’s names and pictures and swapped them between each other’s websites there would be nothing “off” about it.
Re: Re: Re:3
I’d like to think I do, but I’m not sure you do, because none of those is the argument that is being made.
“I make pictures for white people only” is discriminatory. “I make pictures of white people only” may be racist, but it isn’t discriminatory. If a Black person wants to buy one of those paintings and is able to do so, how have they been discriminated against?
Making clothes intended for a particular demographic isn’t discriminatory. Refusing to sell those clothes to anyone outside that demographic could be.
There are a lot of designers that only design women’s clothes. Are they discriminating against men? Or does it only become discriminatory if a man wants to buy a skirt and is refused?
Discriminatory. “I’m a potter. I refuse to make bowls.” Not discriminatory. Although, if “bowl” and “dish” are legally identical in the way cpt kangarooski states straight and gay weddings are, then maybe it could be?
Yes, I know. I actually spoke to that above when I asked “what if I have the web designer build a site for a heterosexual wedding and then I change the pictures?”
It's an issue of democracy
In a democratic country, like South Africa, it is the government’s duty and obligation to protect its citizens from all discrimination, whether it comes from corporations or other citizens. In a fascist totalitarian state like the USA, only white cis-het people have rights, and the government exists to protect those white cis-het people, and only those people! If the USA had been a democracy, it wouldn’t even be an issue, all citizens would be protected from discrimination by bigots.
unpopular views (or clients) make for bad laws
It’s sometimes said that bad cases make for bad case law. Reading the myriad comments here it’s obvious that folks desperately want a certain result. Unfortunately, that result isn’t supported by the protections we all enjoy and rely upon to maintain our freedom. Conflating, twisting, shoehorning both the facts and the law to achieve a result you feel is right just ends up making everyone less free.
Thanks to the author for taking the time to try and breakdown what’s actually at play and at stake in this case.
It’s important to remember that freedoms need to protect everyone, even the people you don’t like, for doing things you may not agree with, if they are going to be able to protect anyone.
Re: Yep, and...
“Reading the myriad comments here it’s obvious that folks desperately want a certain result.”
The problem is that this cuts both ways. People who want to be able to discriminate, and those who don’t want to be discriminated against, are focused so much on the case either ok-ing or forbidding that discrimination that they are missing what is actually at stake in this case, for everyone.
Re:
“No blacks, no dogs, no gays.”
This is not compelled speech...
If the government went to her home and told her she had to make a same-sex wedding website, then the First Amendment protects her right not to. But that’s not what’s happening. She is CHOOSING to enter the marketplace and when she does that, she must comply with anti-discrimination legislation. She can say and believe whatever she wants on her own time… but once she offers her services for money, she is opting in to obeying discrimination laws. If the premise of this article were true, Jim Crow restaurants would say “as a chef and culinary artist I cannot serve Black people.”
Re:
No, if the premise of the article were true, restaurants could say, “as a chef and culinary artist, I refuse to prepare soul food.”
Only about speech
“Especially because, at its core, this case is only a speech case.”
What an absolutely absurd contention as well as gross oversimplification of what this case is supposed to be about. This isn’t about religion or gay marriage or artistic expression. This is, at its core, about when the LGBTQ community is a protected class and whether they can be denied goods and services available to others simply because of their class and not because of any specific message that needs to be produced by the persons they wish to employ. Employ, as in contractual agreement. As in, the supposed web designer wants to participate in an economy in which they are prohibited from discriminating against a protected class. Can the LGBTQ community be denied entry into an contractual agreement simply because of their immutable being or their desire to express their own immutable being? Not religious belief. Not political belief. Simply for who they are. I doubt very much whether the author of this article has thought through the implications of what they think is an ideal outcome.
Cathy, I suggest you refrain from using loaded terms to describe people with which you disagree. You wouldn’t want that done to you, yet you happily inflict that on others. Resubmit the article using neutral terms only for the person in question. Demonizing those who believe differently than you do is engaging in the very behavior you accuse them of and makes you a hypocrite. Treat those people the way you want to be treated.
Protip: Forced acceptance of a lifestyle and beliefs is just as wrong coming from your direction as it is from the other side. And so is the degradation of them. Believe it or not, one can disagree without disparaging and putting down those who think differently than you do. Try it sometime.
Re:
MuH bOtH sIdEs!!!11
Re: Is vs Does
How about ‘no’? If she doesn’t want to be called a bigot then she can stop acting like one.
Discrimination against someone for something like sex, sexual orientation or race(what someone is) is not even remotely equivalent to discriminating against someone for what they say or do(what someone does), so trying to play the ‘they’re both bigotry’ card is doomed to failure right out of the gate.
And yet, for all they do, the community you guys promote still can’t come up with a pronounceable acronym.
Should she be able to discriminate against black people’s weddings too? Maybe a big banner on the home page that says “We don’t serve blacks or gays,” or “Straight whites only?”
If your answer is “yes,” you’re being consistent. If your answer is “no,” you’re being inconsistent.
Individuals vs. Businesses
I have to disagree. Yes, as an individual she absolutely has the right to (not) say what she wants. However, her business is required to not discriminate against protected classes of people.
If she is unwilling to have her business provide services to protected classes, she’s free to forfeit the business license that is contingent upon her business obeying the law.
why is this forced speech?
I am just so tired of people (including the court) pretending that this is a freedom of speech issue. I fully agree that people should not be forced to create a message that they disagree with. However, why is this an issue of speech?
A gay wedding is not a pro-gay message. It is a wedding between two people of the same gender. Why should their existence necessarily require a message? Does a straight marriage promote a pro-straight message? Can a business refuse to make a birthday cake for a lesbian because a birthday cake celebrates the existence of that person, and they have the belief that gay people should not be celebrated? Why are we insisting that the inclusion of gay people is a political message, rather than just an accurate reflection of our society?
Does serving an interracial couple promote a pro-interracial marriage message? Or a couple of the same race, is that a message promoting same-race marriage? How about serving a couple in which one of them had been previously divorced, is that a pro-divorce message? What about a Muslim couple? Is a wedding website for a Muslim couple a pro-Muslim message?
How much further will this “message” interpretation of the First Amendment extend? Can someone who creates beautifully handcrafted furniture refuse to sell it to a gay couple because that would be promoting the message of a gay home? Can the artistic chef refuse to cook for a gay couple on their anniversary because that would be promoting pro-gay dating?
I would prefer to live in a world where inclusion of my existence is not treated as a political message. I would rather be able to just be a person, and be able to go about my life like anybody else without worrying that I will be excluded from society.
Re: compelled speech redux
A web site for it, on the other hand, is most assuredly delivery of a message. That is its sole purpose.
Re: Re:
But it’s not gay speech.
It’s literally work for hire. Unless she has a clause in there that the website is her work and she retains copyright which any reasonable customer would tell her to f*** off, it’s not her speech. Literally it’s not her speech. It’s work for hire, and First Amendment protections do not apply.
But aside from that, she’s a public accommodation, so she cannot use her First Amendment rights of religious freedom or artistic expression to discriminate.
She advertises to the general public, the general public has access to her place of business, whether it is brick and mortar or digital. She sells to the general public. By all definitions, she is a public accommodation, the same as an Airbnb rental, a rental car company, a gas station, an auto repair facility, a general hardware store, or a restaurant.
Basically any company or business or individual that presents themselves as a business regardless of the product or service that they sell in, regardless of the origin of that product or service that promotes themselves as doing business with the general public makes themselves available to the general public and sells to the general public is a public accommodation.
A homeowner that is renting an Airbnb cannot discriminate against you because of their religious views. A restaurant cannot discriminate against you because of your religious views. A private chef can discriminate against anyone he wants.
To be clear, if she did not advertise to the general public, If a place of business was not available to the general public, and she didn’t sell to the general public, like her studio and digital storefront was only accessible to explicit customers, and she only sold websites to a small group of vetted customers. She wouldn’t be a public accommodation and she could discriminate all she wants.
Re: Re: Re:
And that involves more than just speech, including the question of can someone be compelled to work for someone else, with all the legal and financial risks of their work being rejected.
Re: Re: Re: compelled speech redux
SO it is. But it is still speech. And I can choose to accept or reject employment to deliver it.
My sign printing company that prints pro-truck signs is free to reject orders from the railroad saying ship by rail, and from ecological concerns saying that trucks generate an inordinate amount of diesel fumes.
The railroad, on the other hand, does not have the same freedom to refuse to deliver boxcar loads of material to my factory, and to ship loads of signs to the truck factory political distribution center.
If you want to view my sign plant as a public accommodation, well. I will print pro-truck signs for anyone who comes along, here are five designs to choose from. I just do not happen to print signs advocating for a cleaner environment.
Freedom of the press is for he who owns one.
I don't see a problem...
The argument, here and with Colorado cake baking, is that an artist should not be forced to create something that they do not agree with, that does not reflect their views.
So in this case, perhaps, the web designer should win their case; but IMHO the cake maker should not.
The key thing to consider is how much is “creative” and how much is rote manufacturing. If someone is expected to come up with the complete design of a website, including the text and the design (font, placements, photo montage design, assorted page links and multiple pages, etc. etc.) that’s a large proportion of creative work. If it were simply a WordPress design and template “fill in the blanks, plunk 2 photos”, by contrast, there is very little creativity and it’s mostly mechanical.
Similarly, a cake is a pretty mechanical process. If you want a traditional cake, 3 layers, rosettes over piping around each later, a (very) short message message and names maybe on one layer, and plunk 2 figurines on top – that’s mostly mechanical and nobody’s artistic style is being hampered. If you want a wildly creative cake that individually expresses you then that’s creative design.
Meanwhile, operating a bus system or running a hotel or restaurant lunch counter or operating a county marriage license bureau is >99% mechanical, so no discrimination should be allowed at all.
Unfortunately the world is not black and white. I don’t think it’s anyone’s business which two people want to get married, but I don’t think people should vote republican or donate to TV evangelists either – but they do and that’s their right.
So any dispute like this should boil down to “is it creative or simply rote mechanical?” and if it’s more than, say, 50% creative – it’s the artist’s discretion. Unfortunately, the world is not black and white, so it’s a judgement call each time, worst case, a judge’s call. (And I would throw in the question – could you reduce your creative input to make it more than 50% mechanical?)
I would also throw in, if the person’s religious beliefs are so strict, they are already violating their dogma just by living, since they violate their god’s commandment that the “abomination… shall be stoned.” So they already demonstrate a willingness to bend their beloved principles for society’s sake.
Re: Forgot to add...
AFAIK there is nothing in the Bible about lesbians, so there is no religious reason to refuse to provide a service to lesbians who want to marry.
Re: Re:
A lot of Christians conveniently ignore most of the stuff in the bible except the parts they can use as a weapon against people they don’t like or as proof of their moral superiority.
Re: Re:
There’s not much about male homosexuals either. Some people try cherry picking quotes from the Old Testament next to the parts about not wearing mixed fibres, eating shellfish, having tattoos or telling you how to sell/kill female offspring, but actual quotes that mean something in the overall focus are thin on the ground.
Re: Re:
Well they tend to not hire male videographers for the honeymoon so they feel left out & don’t want them to marry unless they can watch.
Re: Re:
The religious freedoms of the First Amendment do not just apply to Christianity. They can apply to whatever wackadoodle religion you want to say you’re a part of. So, if you say that your religion doesn’t believe in gay marriage for lesbians or men, it doesn’t have to be Christianity. That is your religion.
The same way that the First Amendment allows a person to state that their religion is some wackadoodle religion, is why we have protection against bigots using the First Amendment to hide behind. Namely, the public accommodation laws.
The first public accommodation laws prohibiting discrimination based on race, religion, color (anachronistic, isn’t it?) And national origin We’re part of the 1964 civil rights act. Public accommodation at that time was limited to transportation, hotels, all types of lodging, schools and things like that, cafeterias and restaurants, etc.
The federal definition of public accommodation used for many statutes as well as the Americans for disabilities Act is basically any business that is accessible to the general public, used by the general public, available to the general public, advertises to the general public, and/or sells to the general public.
There is nothing in the current definition of public accommodation with respect to federal law or Colorado law that provides for artistic expression as a way to be exempted from the law’s prohibiting discrimination by a business that is a public accommodation.
Ms. website developer is a public accommodation under current federal and Colorado law. She sells to the general public. She advertises to the general public. The general public has access to her place of business, whether it is brick and mortar or digital.
All this window dressing made out of the whole cloth is a distraction and by window dressing I mean her artistic expression and her first amendment right to religious freedom.
The religious right and the conservative right want to gut public accommodation laws.
She is a public accommodation. She cannot discriminate based on a protected class which she clearly did. She discriminated based on marital status. It wasn’t sexual orientation, although that is also protected under colorado law but not federal law. She sold websites to gay people. She just refused to sell them to married gay people.
In the same way that your religious views are prohibited as the basis for you to discriminate against renting your vacation home on Airbnb or canceling the reservation of someone your religion looks down on, she is prohibited from discriminating using the First Amendment, whether it is religious freedom or freedom of artistic expression.
It’s absolutely ridiculous that people would say that one part of the first amendment is of a higher stature than the other. If you can’t discriminate, based on your religious views, how can you discriminate because of your freedom of expression?
You can’t refuse people food at a lunch counter cuz they’re Jewish. Regardless, that is a religious freedom based discrimination.
She can’t claim religious freedom and discriminate because two gay men are married.
There is no right to own or run a business. It’s in the name of the license required to actually run one business privilege license.
And if she did not want to have to contend with the restrictions of non-discrimination, she could have been a private business. Nobody forced her to set her business up as a public accommodation. She could have not advertised publicly, she could have not allowed the general public access to her place of business, and she could have sold her websites or web designs to a small group of carefully vetted customers.
If she had done that she could discriminate all day long and make websites for those straight. Laced homophobic conservative Christian freaks.
Why not just use their argument?
Having watched these religious nutcases in action for years now, they love to push their right to exercise their religious beliefs right to the point that someone else decides to exercise theirs.
Just look at everyone losing their collective shits over that Virginia restaurant refusing service to a political group (their choice of words, BTW) over their anti-LGBTQIA+ views. It made their staff feel uncomfortable, so they cancelled their reservation. All of a sudden, there they are blabbering on how the restaurant is discriminating against them based on their religion. That’s quite the shift, no?
This whole thing is a giant red herring, but now that it’s in court, you can’t unfuck the football. So why not use their own hatred against them? One commenter suggested not using a service if that service clearly doesn’t want to serve you – I agree, but in addition to that, they should be publicly shamed about it. Mercilessly. As I see it, if they want to wear their beliefs on their sleeves at work, then they’re fair game for reviews, just like the rest of the business.
Appeasement will not work. Their special book tells them they’re right and no amount of compromise will be enough. They want to be like Iran, just with different funny clothes.
Maybe more businesses refusing service to these kind of people in the name of staff safety will have an effect. If a business can’t retain staff because of people like these, how are they supposed to operate? So perhaps Ms. Gellis has a great point, and it’s time to sharpen the pencil and start writing.
Because for all of their self-righteous ramblings on what everyone else is doing wrong, they cannot fathom that their actions could somehow be insulting, threatening, demeaning, or just plain old dickhead behavior.
They’re self-righteous assholes because their god is an asshole. For all he’s supposed to love what he created, all he does is play favorites and command the ones who listen to hm to do all kinds of mean things in his name. That’s the bible in one sentence. If that’s their reference material, do you really expect a rational conversation?
Re:
something something he is everywhere & sees everything…
which means ever time a child was raped, he watched & did NOTHING.
And people who worship a deity a okay with children being raped get special carve outs in society…
This this just goes here...
Yet another Kim Davis lawsuit is working its way towards SCOTUS…
Tell me this is about 1 web designer again…
Overlapping rights
All of these issues are self-inflicted. All of them boil down to where one person’s rights infringe on another’s.
It’s a much larger concern than cakes and web sites.
Does a black person’s race and total-lack of qualifications justify them attending university more than a highly qualified Asian? Should a Christian be forced to make gay cakes? Anti-nature bigots forced to make pan-sexual web pages?
Should a nation of islam store be forced to serve a actual neo-nazi?
Long before the current generation of self-righteous chicken shite afraid of a few bad words, real battles of censorship and forced speech played out. In the 1980s and 1990s.
One of my all time favourite stores decades ago was a pan-spectrum metal shop. Carrying nearly every aspect of extreme music from acid jazz to black metal’s beginnings. With a suit of armour and real sword in the window, a sign on the door.
No Christians Allowed. We don’t sell white metal.
In the early 2000s this single owner 2-employee store finally closed. Local church activists threatened a lawsuit if they were not allowed to shop. In a store that carried nothing they would want to buy for personal reasons. They opted to serve none, rather than be forced to serve all.
A store that opened in the days of darkwave and punk finally pushed out by people with a mental illness believing flying people talk to them.
Every time someone is forced to cater, in speech, to something they don’t agree with, …
Every right granted to one takes a right from another.
Law makers need to actually contemplate that reality when they make new grants.
I’m not saying accessibility is wrong, either. Only that there is little thought in the process today.
Re:
You said what I tried to say with an excellent example of rights being trampled on.
I would have spent hours in that shop.
Re:
The website designer is a public accommodation under both Federal and Colorado law. She advertises to the general public. She allows the general public access to her place of business. Whether brick and mortar or digital. She sells her works to the general public. Regardless of where her works come from, she is still a public accommodation.
The website designer chose to be a public accommodation. She could just as easily been a private business. Advertisement by word of mouth, appointment only private place of business, sold only or took commissions only by private appointment. Had she chosen that path? We wouldn’t be here today because as just the regular business she could discriminate against and refuse service to anyone she wants.
This is a lawsuit designed by the religious right. They want a case in front of the court to erode the protections against discrimination by public accommodation laws because the states have made them extremely robust compared to the paltry four or five protected classes in the federal statute.
Federal law does not provide for prohibition of discrimination against protected classes of sexual orientation and marital status. The only two classes that apply here. Sexual orientation does not, marital status does because she sold a website to gay men. She wouldn’t sell it to another set of game and because they’re married.
Colorado law does prohibit discrimination in public accommodations based on sexual orientation or marital status among a very good list.
Now I’ll answer the questions at the top.
Regarding the black man and Asian students disenfranchised first, I’d say prove it that it happens systematically because it didn’t and you can’t. Secondly, I’d say if the institution thinks that having a reasonable number of black students is conducive to a proper educational environment, so people learn in the real world that they’re going to graduate into instead of some non-approximation with respect to race, then yes, absolutely.
If the Christian owns a business that is a public accommodation, then yes they need to make gay cakes. They decided to be a public accommodation and if they live in a state where sexual orientation is a protected class.
A private business (meaning they do not advertise to the general public, they don’t have a place of business that is accessible by or frequented by the general public and they don’t sell to the general public) or a hobbyist would not have to do anything they don’t want to and can discriminate all day long.
Regarding that anti-nature bigots and the pansexuals, the same answer of being a public accommodation applies. If they’re not then there’s no law saying they have to do anything.
I have a friend who has a shop that does extremely high-end vehicle rehabilitation and restoration. The place of business is not open to the general public, he doesn’t sell to the general public, he only advertises at very specific. Car shows. He is not a public accommodation. He can discriminate against anyone except in matters of state employment law.
If the nation of Islam store is open to the general public then yes. All neo-Nazis are white, else they’re not neo-Nazis. Therefore, the nation of Islam would be discriminating against the white devil, which is discrimination based on race and illegal under the federal public accommodations law.
The public accommodation laws have been around for almost 60 years since the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
It’s funny that you have the story about the record store that sold metal. If they were open to the general public sold to the general public an advertised to the general public then they were probably a public accommodation. The little sign they had no Christians allowed. If it wasn’t tongue in cheek, it would have been discrimination under the public accommodation law. As part of the 1964 civil rights act, you can’t discriminate based on religion, regardless of your religious views.
You seem to be under the impression that public accommodation laws grant somebody rights. They simply prohibit discrimination.
The First Amendment is not absolute. And almost 60 years ago, the federal government passed public accommodations laws. That said, you don’t have the right to discriminate against people because of your religion. If you own these certain types of businesses or work in these certain types of businesses, public businesses. If you’re not in the public view, if the general public doesn’t frequent your store. If you don’t sell to the general public or advertised to the general public, then you’re not a public accommodation and you can discriminate all you want.
The people from the local church should assumed under the 1964 civil rights act. If the record shop had been found to be a public accommodation, f*** them for being bigots. Losing some money would have brought him in the line right quick.
Cuz maybe there’s other shops to get records in. Maybe not. But do you stop at record shops? Do you stop at mom and pop grocery stores? Do you stop at the larger but small grocery stores? Could you stop that Airbnb rentals or do you stop at boutique hotels or do you stop at the Hilton?
Public accommodations laws were enacted so that businesses that advertise to the public and sell to the public would have to provide those goods and services to the public without discrimination without picking a small part of the public. That’s in furtherance of the public good, so that the expectation that you would be able to rent that hotel, or not have your vacation rental canceled, o be refused groceries because of some bigot hiding behind the first amendment.
Like I said before, your last line is completely ridiculous. These public accommodation laws have been on the books since 1964. At first it was only a few protected classes and still is for the federal government.
The states are free to add protected classes if they choose, and Colorado elected lawmakers that passed the Colorado public accommodations laws.
Re: Re:
Neo-Nazis aren’t (and shouldn’t be) a protected class. Even if they’re all white, they’re still not being discriminated against because of their race. As long as the NOI store is willing to serve white customers who aren’t neo-Nazis, they wouldn’t be violating any laws.
So, website design is speech
Quickly because my understanding of this matter is less than I like. To compel the website designer to create a site because a protected class sees the denial to offer is the same as discrimination is why Colorado is wrong.
Speech. Funny how far ‘protected class’ laws only see public marketplace, sales, as the reason to compel designer to create something that is distasteful.
The rights of the designer are trampled on by the state and the rights of the group the designer does not wish to work with are not harmed – find another designer.
The old fashioned in me says this is the problem with making equal access the same as equal outcome. State crafted the law, fix it.
(168 pages of fitting a square peg in a round hole, fetch a hammer)
Re:
The only true statement you’ve made, based on the rest of your comment.
Re: Re:
Poster is not wrong though, even if not totally right.
And that’s my preceding point.
My views are not black and white, or red and blue.
Every time someone is accommodated someone else is infringed upon. This is the nature of freedom.
At what point attempts at balance become unacceptable infringements upon others. No civilised person complains about civil rights in the mixing of race. But the edge cases do exist. There are, legally existing, groups of “race hate”. Black and white. Should they be forced to cater in a private aspect simply because they are open to the “public”?
Nobody is forcing LordFM to play black metal and gangster rap. Would that be a valuable target for equality?
Must a mosque allow entry of a christian warrior?
A fail to see any good in a baker forced to make a gay wedding cake. I fail to see a positive in a homophobe making a lgbt web site.
Ultimately though, such laws creep. Today multiple lawsuits by Asian student groups confront affirmative action decisions in universities.
Those that actually deserve are being passed over.
And today we have the trans debates as well.
Should a trans male with twice the muscle mass swim against women?
Should a Catholic Church be forced to allow a trans into a women’s toilet?
And that’s not a knock on women. Some of thr strongest women in the world lace up boots and step into a wrestling ring or steel cage and outperform men on a daily basis.
But where do the rights of access reach the end? How much right of choice and expression and “affiliation” is subject to discare.
Law must be thoughtfully considered.
Re: Re: Re:
I assume the first question you mean should a trans woman swim against women? Because the answer to both your questions is yes, they should be allowed, because trans women are women, just like trans men are men.
Both of these questions you brought up are common ones that transphobes bring up to stoke fear against trans people. I’m unsure if you knew that or not. I suggest doing more research and brushing up on your vocabulary before trying to discuss trans rights issues.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Use of scientific accuracy is more important than any single person’s feelings.
What you want to project is not at issue to me. I could care less how you wish to act, present, and live. Key, actual fact, the overwhelming majority of people actually transphobic are those of the Abraham myths. Of which I consider no more than fantastic fairy tales of whales and dragons and gods.
I don’t care what you look like, how you act, who you bang. Or don’t.
The question is what right one person should have over another.
Notice I didn’t chose a side. And have not in any discussion on such issues.
I simply point out issues. Should a straight white catholic prude, we, woman, be subjected to a penis in what was supposed to be a “safe space”.
It is absolutely a valid question for discussion.
Because all these ‘rights’ do infringe on other rights. Such as right to refuse service. The right of free association (assembly). Cntd.
As for athletics, until this country stops repressing women into typesets…
Women are socially repressed from reaching their biological peaks. Let them reach their potential? Maybe biological men will push the boundaries to all women to be the superior athletes they can be. Maybe not.
I honestly don’t care about that.
But when you make a law, you must consider the consequences of it.
Because right now it’s hypocritical. You suggest you can force one ideology but not another. I suggest consideration in design.
There’s a point where Force of an individual becomes a cliff. Law must be careful not to plough over the edge blindly.
Re: Re: Re:3
Ah, “Facts don’t care about your feelings”, another alt-right talking point. You seem to love these, don’t you?
Trans women in sports is A-OK. Fact of the matter is trans women, trans men, trans people overall in sports, it’s all good. Trans women are going to the bathroom because they need to take care of their business like every other woman. And women’s restrooms are all stalls. Nobody is seeing a trans woman’s equipment.
Again, both these talking points about restrooms and trans people in sports are used by bigots to stoke fear of trans people.
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Re: Re: Re:4
You are the one stuck in TSTV. It was one of multiple examples.
My well traveled guess is it’s about 50/50 if you count no door as a “stall”
coverage is not as complete as you think though.
As for talking point, my history is quite clear. I don’t really care about anyone else’s feelings. I’m not some bleeding heart empathetic person.
I’m a rationalist that lives in reality. Not som coddled bubble or some religious myth system.
Where’s your mandate that black supremacists should be forced to offer service to white bigots?
Or gay cakes. Or incomplete healthcare. Move off your personal activist badge. There’s a lot more than bathrooms in my post.
You’re the one fixating
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Re: Re: Re:4
Personally I believe nature gives me the absolute natural right to walk into a church or mosque or temple naked, and commence relations with any willing person on whatever table of worship is available.
Fuck feelings
Re: Re: Re:3 key fact
That doesn’t imply causality, Mr Factual Accuracy. If it is true, then it is true merely because those of the Abrahamic myths are the majority of the world’s total population. Thus, the formula “the majority of people who are ____ are people of the Abrahamic myths” will remain true for a most assertions (if they are unrelated to the myth system of one’s parent culture; of course “the majority of Hindus are people of the Abrahamic myths” would be false ). For example, “the majority of trans people are people of the Abrahamic myths” is most probably true.
Re:
So you believe that a Muslim homeowner should be able to cancel your vacation reservation at the Airbnb that they rented you when you show up wearing a crucifix because of their religious freedom?
First of all, that’s a protected class. Just like race, gender. The fact that Colorado added sexual orientation and marital status among other things is moot.
There is no exemption of a business from public accommodation laws because the business sells artistic expression. A public accommodation is a public accommodation — If they
advertise to the general public,
the general public can access their digital or brick and mortar place of business
and they sell to the general public.
If you open a photography store that’s open to the general public, your advertisement says that you sell to the general public, the general public cannon does frequent your establishment, and you do sell to the general public. General public. Even if part of what you sell is photographic services. Meaning you go take pictures. You can’t discriminate you’re a public accommodation.
Re:
Unfortunately, then you’re not very well informed.
Public accommodation law has been settled law for almost 60 years since the 1964 Civil rights act.
The definition of a public accommodation is that you are open to the general public, you advertise to the general public, you sell to the general public, and the general public frequents your place of business, whether it’s digital or brick and mortar. There’s none of this artistic expression crap as an exemption to public accommodation law.
The First Amendment does not allow for discrimination in public accommodation. This includes hotels, motels, Airbnb rentals, rental cars, restaurants, all retail stores, all service establishments, all automobile service centers and a whole lot more.
A Muslim homeowner that is renting an Airbnb beachfront home to you for your vacation cannot cancel your reservation when you show up to take possession because you’re wearing a crucifix. Their first amendment right to freedom of religion does not allow discrimination.
The whole crap about she’s a artist and you can’t force her is just that, crap. Does artistic expression take precedence over any other kind of expression
Protected by the First Amendment? No, of course not.
If you’re a public accommodation, you can’t discriminate. The first amendment does not protect you.
The real issues here are Is she actually a public accommodation? It’s pretty clear that she is a public accommodation under both federal and Colorado law. She sold to the general public. She has a business that’s open to the general public and she advertises herself as being available to the general public. No, you cannot say in your advertising that you assert your first amendment right to deny service to some group of people based on your religion, that doesn’t work if they’re part of a protected class.
The only way you get out of the public accommodation law, if you’re a public accommodation is by not being one ie be a private business.
Not open to the general public, you don’t advertise your business to the general public, and you only sell to a small group of selected customers.
Why is Colorado implementing protected classes that include sexual orientation and marital status wrong or actually in any way different than the federal government public accommodation law protecting classes of race and religion?
Short answer it is not different.
If she had discriminated against a black couple, we wouldn’t even be here talking about this balderdash.
Website designer or not, artistic expression or not, if she had discriminated against a black couple, she would have fallen afoul of the federal public accommodations law from the 1964 civil rights act.
So you’re 100% wrong that her being a website designer and using artistic expression in her work allows her to claim religious freedom or any First Amendment protection against public accommodation law. Because she couldn’t discriminate against a black couple.
This is all because some people find gay people. Icky and they couch their bigotry in first amendment religious freedom, the first amendment is not absolute. And your prohibited from using it in public accommodations as a way to discriminate against protected classes. Just because Colorado has more protected classes than the federal government is moot. If public accommodations laws can protect black people from bigots and certain religions from bigots. Then you can protect whatever protected class the state decides. Remember, the Constitution provides that anything that is not prohibited to the states the state can make law.
Nothing in the constitution or the federal statutes and the federal statutes come from the 1964 civil rights act, prohibit the states from adding more protected classes. Nothing.
Re:
Okay I’m correcting you.
The issue is what’s called public accommodation.
Public accommodation laws were written as part of the 1964 Civil rights act to prevent discrimination in public accommodation based on race, religion and a few other things. This was basically to prevent discrimination against blacks and minority religious groups with respect to retail stores, service stations, stores that sold goods and services to the general public, hotels, grocery stores and basically any business regardless of how large or small and regardless of what they sell that advertises to the general public, has a place of business that is accessible to the general public and or frequented by the general public, whether or not it’s brick and mortar or digital, and they sell their goods and or services to the general public.
If those three tests are not met, the business is not a public accommodation under federal law or Colorado law and anti-discrimination laws don’t apply except for employment law.
The web designer is a public accommodation. She advertises to the public, the public has access to her place a business, and she sells to the general public. She could have easily been a private company instead of a public accommodation. If she did not allow public access to her place of business, if she did not advertise to the general public, and if she did not sell to the general public instead selling based on a filtered group of customers.
If she was not a public accommodation she could discriminate all she wants.
There are several other states that include sexual orientation and marital status as a protected class under public accommodation laws. The federal government does not.
Owning a business is not a right. It is a privilege. The business license is called a business privilege license. And accordingly, if you run your business and it falls into the categories of businesses that fall under public accommodations laws and you can’t discriminate.
Her right to be a designer is not infringed. She can design websites and give them away to whoever she wants and deny them to whoever she wants. She could act as a private business that is not a public accommodation and she could do the same thing.
She has no constitutional right to run a business that sells her art that is unencumbered by the laws of the state.
The First Amendment does not say that you have the right to advertise to the general public that you are going to sell certain goods and services and then decide for whatever reason not to sell them to a certain group of people.
I like the things that you posted. It’s clear that the issue at hand is whether or not as an openly advertising business that ostensibly does not operate on a commission only basis, (meaning commissioned artwork), but rather provides their goods and services to the general public; is whether or not the business is a public accommodation.
I’m sure that you would respond that it’s a web design. Obviously that’s artistic speech. My argument to that is a question and you go down a slippery slope depending on how you answer it: can an ER surgeon refuse to operate on someone due to their religious beliefs? Or does the public good and the public trust outweigh First Amendment protection the same way that it does for rental car companies and grocery stores.
Now that I mentioned grocery stores should a mom and pop grocery store be forced to sell to people of a religion they do not believe in? I would argue that mom and pop grocery stores most likely have a higher level of creativity and artistic content then your average web site.
If a mom and pop grocery store gets first amendment protection and can discriminate because they are not a public accommodation, is scale the only thing that determines whether something is a public accommodation or not?
Surely, we wouldn’t want Walmart to deny people food based on some bootstrapped first amendment protection.
Let’s just remember, There is no right to owning a business. If it was a right there wouldn’t be business privilege licenses.
You wouldn’t have to register your business with the state. And you wouldn’t have to separate the business name from your name.
I don’t know what form of business construction she uses but even in most jurisdictions business privilege licenses are required for sole proprietorships.
There is a difference between standing in the public square and espousing your views, and painting a picture, or taking photographs, and starting a business and selling photographs or paintings for sale.
If you advertise that you will make websites for people, people being the general public, first amendment protection should not apply. You should be considered a public accommodation regardless of artistic merit.
Nobody would even know that she made the website, that argument is balderdash. It’s not compelling speech, it’s compelling her to do what she said she would do when she advertised she would make websites.
I mean let’s go back to the issue of scale. Is it because she’s her own employee that she can be bigoted and cry first amendment protection?
Artistic employees at major companies are not granted first amendment protection when their company forces them on pain of being fired to design what they were told, whether they like it or not.
Should the court rule for Colorado, This would not have the effect of chilling speech. That’s ridiculous on its face. In the same way that every bit of employment law outside of unions doesn’t chill speech. People do their job. They do what they’re told to or they don’t have a job.
Maybe the artist should have thought, “If I don’t want to make websites for people that I find morally reprehensible then maybe I should do something else.”
Because you have to ask the next question, is a bed and breakfast owned by a couple allowed to discriminate with respect to lodgers due to some bootstrapped first amendment protection. I would argue since they own the home and they decorate the home and perhaps they live in the home used as a bed and breakfast they likely have much more artistry invested in the home and everybody knows they own it and that they let somebody stay in the B&B that maybe was undesirable. (News flash they cannot discriminate and use the first amendment as a convenient wall to hide behind) B&B’s are a public accommodation, and they are an artistic endeavor. The owners likely decorated. They also likely cook the meals. They likely develop the advertising, the furniture, the lawns. Their name might be on the B&B it’s absolutely an artistic endeavor. However, the owners are not granted first amendment protection if they choose to discriminate. It is a public accommodation.
The question for the court is not whether she has First Amendment protection.
The question for the court is to define clearly what a public accommodation is and is not, with respect to the First Amendment. Absent that, there is a huge slippery slope. Today a web designer, tomorrow a mom and pop bed and breakfast, the next daya mom and pop grocery store.
As I’ve shown the line is blurred. I’m sure the owners of the B&B would argue that they have artistic endeavor and their business. They probably do more artistic things than the website designer. However, the law is clear regarding public accommodation. And the law is currently clear that bed and breakfasts are a public accommodation. Hence why the Supreme Court must step in and settle the blurred lines regarding what is and is not a public accommodation with respect to business.
First Amendment protections are 100% necessary. However, when first amendment protections inhibit the expectation of the delivery of goods and services without a banner on the advertisement, (because let’s face it. If she put on her website business advertisements that she was homophobic, she would go out of business) the First Amendment protections end.
If you’re so upset about speech, and what people may think about you, if you make a website for gay, people, put it on your advertisements that you don’t make websites for gay people because then it’s clear.
wronged ‘em boyo
You have your ideologies backwards. It is the fascists who are intolerant of homosexuals. We socialists view LGBTQ+ and all people as one common family of man, who deserve equal rights, respect, and love.
It looks like the Supreme Court is gonna decide in favor of Alliance Defending Freedom and their bigoted garbage. I continue to be baffled by your idea that they could weave their way around to make this purely about compelled speech and expression in a way that magically protects LGBTQIA+ people like me. Or that the bigoted Supreme Court would want to do that. But that still wouldn’t be a good decision.
I really hope that you think long and hard about all the responses and counterpoints you received over the course of this comments section. Maybe it will jolt you out of your free-expression-above-all-else stupor.
Hey, hey Cathy: Looks like you won. People can discriminate against me freely now. I hope you’re happy. Freedom of Expression wins! Congrats on having more rights than me as a human being!
Re: Not so
If you feel less human over some bigot refusing service you shouldn’t.
There are literally millions of web designers. Chose a different one.
Why would you even WANT to use a bigot’s offerings?
I’d walk away at the first no. You are never going to change everyone’s opinions and some people are thick as bricks.
Brighten up, lighten up, and don’t take idiots so seriously.
The only way a braindead web designer makes you less human is if you allow yourself to self-wallow.
So, website design is speech
Quickly because my understanding of this matter is less than I like. To compel the website designer to create a site because a protected class sees the denial to offer is the same as discrimination is why Colorado is wrong.
Speech. Funny how far ‘protected class’ laws only see public marketplace, sales, as the reason to compel designer to create something that is distasteful.
The rights of the designer are trampled on by the state and the rights of the group the designer does not wish to work with are not harmed – find another designer.
The old fashioned in me says this is the problem with making equal access the same as equal outcome. State crafted the law, fix it.
(168 pages of fitting a square peg in a round hole, fetch a hammer)
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