Corporations Not Happy Innovators Have 'Hacked' The Crappy U.S. Binding Arbitration System

from the dysfunction-junction dept

For years, AT&T worked tirelessly to erode its customers’ legal rights, using mouse print in its terms of service preventing consumers from participating in lawsuits against the company. Instead, customers were forced into binding arbitration, where arbitrators chosen and paid by the companies under fire unsurprisingly rule in favor of the party likely to hire them again a huge percentage of the time. Initially, the lower courts derided this anti-consumer behavior for what it was, critics highlighting that however brutally flawed the class action system can be, binding arbitration, at least the way we let companies design it, in many ways made things worse.

But these lower court roadblocks quickly evaporated when the Supreme Court ruled in 2011 (Mobility v. Concepcion) that what AT&T was doing was perfectly OK. While lower courts saw this as an “unconscionable” abuse of consumer rights and the law, the Supreme Court bought into the ongoing myth that binding arbitration is a hyper-efficient, modern alternative to class actions. The Supreme Court reiterated its position in 2015, and now most companies employ similar language in their terms of service fine print. Thanks, AT&T.

Shockingly, despite the telecom industry being a clear and obvious train wreck rife with endless examples of clear billing fraud, users aren’t finding arbitration provides an effective path to justice. Despite having a combined 330 million video, voice, and broadband customers, just 30 people took AT&T and Comcast to arbitration last year. Driven in part by this, folks in recent years have been trying to find ways to help simplify the complicated process for pissed off consumers and employees, launching services like Radvocate and Fairshake.

As the NY Times notes, these systems are unsurprisingly driving up arbitration complaints as the process is streamlined and made more affordable for participants (consumers and employees often can’t afford to take on corporations individually):

“Mr. Lidow, a Silicon Valley entrepreneur with a law degree, figured there had to be more people upset with their cable companies. He was right. Within a few months, Mr. Lidow found more than 1,000 people interested in filing arbitration claims against the industry. About the same time last year, Travis Lenkner and his law partners at the firm Keller Lenkner had a similar realization. Arbitration clauses bar employees at many companies from joining together to mount class-action lawsuits.”

While the original arbitration idea may have been sound, corporations designed their vision of it with an eye on minimizing costs, tap dancing around accountability, and making it a costly uphill climb for employees and customers to battle them. And now that folks are actually trying to use the system, they’re unsurprisingly not excited about it:

“There is no way that the system can handle mass arbitrations,? said Cliff Palefsky, a San Francisco employment lawyer who has worked to develop fairness standards for arbitration. ?The companies are trying to weasel their way out of the system that they created.”

AT&T, which helped kick this whole shift off with its sneaky bullshit mouse print, has been one of several corporations to hype binding arbitration as a more efficient alternative to class actions. Yet once folks actually began using the process thanks to these new services, companies like AT&T were caught flat footed:

“The companies were caught off guard. It took six months for many of the claims to move through arbitration. And some were still making their way through the system two years later. To Mr. Lidow, that seemed like a long time for two of the nation?s largest companies, with ample legal resources, that have vouched publicly for the efficiencies of arbitration over court.”

Again yes, the class action system is broken, more often than not delivering new boats to attorneys and very little to those who are treated unfairly. But class actions most certainly have driven substantive change over the years (such lawsuits stopped cellular carriers from charging you long term contract early termination fees, for example). And the replacement system corporations built to replace the justice system is proving, as many predicted, to be decidedly worse.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Arbitration? It’s often better than full blown litigation. No appeals, for example. More certain outcomes . People think more deeply at the beginning, and that’s a good thing. Remember the western digital arbitration? Wow, great.

Did you hear Bbill Barr recently? I think he’s going to roast some marshmallows.

And what about trump’s miracle cure? Wow! Like, suddenly, everybody is cured, the hospitals are empty, and only radical leftists, who won’t take the malaria drug, are dying. Everyone sensible is ok! Great news, right?

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Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Ever since the Tide-pod eating challenge...

I’ve been wondering if those challenges are a mechanism of natural selection. Even since the early ages of 4Chan/b the __Del C:WindowsSystem32.__ to boost your computer speed thing has been a running meme. Later challenges seem to be an evolution of the same sort, of which the drink bleach to prevent coronavirus seems to be the latest version. Those who survive learn to not trust everything they read on the internet.

Trump is a walking mechanism of the same sort. Sure, some people voted for him to send a message to the DNC (that we won’t tolerate Republican-lite anymore) or because they were GOP loyalists or because they can’t think beyond abortion but in after all the analyses of the 2016 election most of them were about keeping the non-whites in their place and stopping the inflow of more non-whites, because they, and not unchecked monied interests are easy to blame for all our woes.

That said, they’re still going to vote that way. Biden is just as much a milquetoast rival to an incumbent as Romney, Kerry and Dole. Of all the candidates, the Democratic party ultimate chose one that stands for nothing. And that (compounded with the reasons above) practically assures going to lose to the monster.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You have to escape any character that generates markup through Markdown with a backslash. It’s why…

¯(ツ)

…looks like it does unless you use…

¯_(ツ)_/¯

…to get the desired output:

¯(ツ)

Basically, use the backslash before an asterisk, octothorpe (at the beginning of a line), or an underscore to prevent unneeded Markdown stuff.

#TheMoreYouKnow

Tanner Andrews (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Stupid markup failure.

can’t seem to reconcile the command line text with the markdown

Not sure whether Techdirt is just behind the times or if there is another reason, but there is now something called “HTML” which avoids some of these problems. In fact, quotes even work in HTML.

Some fora have turned to using that HTML stuff, with the advantage that there is a large body of readers and potential comment authors who are familiar with it. And, even for those less familiar with it, HTML has the advantage that it does less damage to your text.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Stupid markup failure.

HTML makes text less readable due all the opening and closing tags cluttering up the text, and takes longer to write things in when taking care to keep the tags balanced. For example

[description](the link)

is easier to use than

<a href="the link">description</a>

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Re:

Not really, as you version is harder to eyeball check, requiring a skip to the end of the text to check the link. Also, it is harder on servers, as it requires a two pass conversion process, 1 pass to check, and build a link table, and a second pass to paste them in place.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9 Re:

Unless a sophisticated editor, complete with popups of the contents of urls, notes etc. is available, inline is the way to go to enable proof reading and avoid errors due to the tag and what it links to being separate and unlinked (at the software level) entities. Therefore, for a markup language, which can be edited with a simple text editor, inline is the best approach. Markdown is better that HTML, at least for simpler requirements, because it is less noisy, and less fussy to use.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10 Re:

"you can write plain text including quotes and have it come out less damaged."

Because clicking preview and or the "use plain text option" are so hard? Also, plain text works fine, it’s the default way HTML parses text unless tags are used. But, it’s when people forget to close tags that it’s a real mess.

Which is why this forum and others that (sensibly) disable post-editing decide to use the markup formatting that was created in response to the shortcomings of the pure HTML as they used to in the past.

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Markdown over HTML

I’m glad for HTML but that’s because I have an HTML friendly text editor at my desktop.

But when I’m not at my desktop, Markdown is much friendlier. I just didn’t know the escape character, which Stephen T. Stone was happy to reveal to me.

To be fair, Google’s half-assed Markdown does suck like a galactic hub.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Ever since the Tide-pod eating challenge...

Technically everything which affects reproduction is natural selection evem if there is no sense init. Fitness is a tautology essentially – if some people were immune to all diseases (ignoring the improbability of such a mechanism developing) and were burned as witches then it would be selected against in spite of its obvious species utility. Killing people for being ‘unlucky’ woulld impact selection randomly even though there is no mechanism to protect against it.

Uriel-238 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Natural selection

In this case, people are making sociopolitical choices. Today some 5000+ persons went to an evangelist mass / political rally for Easter Sunday and not did not social distancing, partly to show solidarity for the GOP, for Protestant Evangelicalism and for Reelecting Trump. And in doing so, they increase their risk for COVID-19 infection.

Short of a miracle, some people who are infected (and unaware) are going to attend and transmit the disease, and of those newly infected, some of them may die.

This is not to say people who are social distancing may not have other factors working against their survival, but they don’t have that factor working against their survival.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 If you want your Darwin Award that freakin' badly...

Today some 5000+ persons went to an evangelist mass / political rally for Easter Sunday and not did not social distancing, partly to show solidarity for the GOP, for Protestant Evangelicalism and for Reelecting Trump. And in doing so, they increase their risk for COVID-19 infection.

… because of course they did. While I try not to wish death or suffering on anyone as that’s the sort of thing that comes from a twisted mind or leads to one, some people do seem to go out of their way to make it downright impossible to feel any sympathy if they do suffer and/or die.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 If you want your Darwin Award that freakin' badly...

While I try not to wish death or suffering on anyone as that’s the sort of thing that comes from a twisted mind or leads to one, some people do seem to go out of their way to make it downright impossible to feel any sympathy if they do suffer and/or die.

But, the problem is the increased infection and death will not be contained among those people. They will spread it to others, some of whom are doing the right thing. The problem is the same one we face when criticising anti-vaxxers – it’s not a question them getting what they asked for, its the other people who had no choice that suffer as well.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 If you want your Darwin Award that freakin' badly...

Yeah, that is the biggest problem with self-centered idiots like that, that others so often end up suffering thanks to their attempt at a Darwin Award. While I have no sympathy for the idiots themselves I have plenty for those around them who end up suffering because of said idiots, made to pay not because of choice but simple proximity.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8 If you want your Darwin Award that freakin' badly...

Yes, it is frustrating. If these people were going in and drinking bleach en masse because they thought that was the solution, I’d roll my eyes, engage in a little schadenfreude, and get on with my day a little sorry but aware that nothing of value was likely lost.

But, these people are going to go around infecting not only their families, but the often low-paid workers who have the misfortune of having to deal with them. It’s especially sad as, seeing my country getting the figures down and preparing to start a slow return to normal, these people are going to help more people die than we’ve seen in the entire pandemic.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

I heard staying at Mara Lago or golfing on one of Trumps courses will Cure the Coronavirus, raise your IQ as high as the Cheeto in Charge’s, grow your manhood by 3 inches or increase your bust to DD’s…

I’m sure the president will be promoting these cures soon (If I had an online show and was hawking my own line of luxury vitamins…)

OldMugwump (profile) says:

Re: Re: Retraction (not)

It’s not a retraction. It’s a response to some complaints by 3rd parties.

Read it: https://www.isac.world/news-and-publications/official-isac-statement

The case for hydrooxychloroquinine is far from proven by one small study, but there is substantial evidence that it helps with COVID-19, and the side effects are mostly mild (unless you take excessively high doses).

Politics aside, in emergencies sometimes we have to make decisions on weak data. If I get COVID-19, I’ll take it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

there is substantial evidence that it helps with COVID-19

The plural. Of “anecdote”. Is not “data”.

Until I see more evidence beyond a handful of success stories that might not be replicable on a large enough scale to prove hydroxychloroquine is an effective treatment for COVID-19, the drug’s status as such a treatment will — and should — remain in question.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Re:

^This.

The response to "this small study and some anecdotal evidence suggests hydroxychloroquine may be an effective treatment" should not be "great, everyone start taking it." The response should be, "Well then let’s get a couple of full clinical studies going RIGHT NOW to find out if it is effective so we can either start giving it to people who need it, or keep looking elsewhere for a real treatment."

OldMugwump (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 You do the best you can do, with the knowledge you have

In a crisis, you make the best judgement you can until more information comes in.

You don’t sit on your hands doing nothing, waiting for p to become less then 0.05.

If the best we can do now is suggest a drug that may help (some weak evidence) and won’t do much harm (decades of experience) then you suggest it.

While at the same time "looking elsewhere for a real treatment".

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 "We must be seen doing something, even if it kills people!"

If the best we can do now is suggest a drug that may help (some weak evidence) and won’t do much harm (decades of experience) then you suggest it.

Yeah, see, here’s the problem with that notion: You may end up recommending a drug that people are already using for reasons wholly unrelated to COVID-19. That recommendation might end up creating a shortage of the drug for the people using it for those reasons.

People with rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who use hydroxychloroquine need that drug for treatment of those conditions. But ever since Trump opened his fucking mouth and said “we have a miracle cure for COVID-19”, those people have had to worry about whether the desperate search for such a cure will render them unable to treat their conditions. That is what happens when you…

suggest a drug that may help

…without having any real evidence (the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, I can’t believe I have to keep saying that) to back up the suggestion.

Everyone in the world wants a cure for COVID-19. But that isn’t any reason to make reckless suggestions that could put the health and lives of an staggering amount of people at risk — whether they have arthritis, lupus, or COVID-19. Yes, study the drug and see if it has any actual benefit for treating COVID-19. But don’t call it or treat it as a “wonder drug” or a “miracle cure”. And don’t act like the few stories that say “it helped” means “it’ll help everyone”. That way lies madness — and a potter’s field of dead bodies.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 "We must be seen doing something, even if it kills people!"

"…without having any real evidence (the plural of “anecdote” is not “data”, I can’t believe I have to keep saying that) to back up the suggestion."

Well, there is some evidence, but it’s the kind of evidence that says "let’s put this into a proper clinical trial" not "go on TV and tell people that it cures everything with zero side effects".

Here’s an actual doctor on the subject:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/mayo-clinic-cardiologist-inexcusable-ignore-hydroxychloroquine-side-effects-n1178776

While hydroxychloroquine is likely to be safe for 90 percent of the population, Ackerman said, it could pose serious and potentially lethal risks to a small number of those susceptible to heart conditions, especially those with other chronic medical problems already on multiple medications.

In fact, a small recent study showed that up to 11 percent of coronavirus patients on hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are in the so-called "red zone" for potential cardiac side effects.

So, around 11% of people in the trial phase are at risk of dying from cardiac issues, and the president is going around telling people to self-medicate claiming zero risk. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s already killed people with this even with people who have obtained the correct drug.

That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 'If this doesn't kill you that likely will'

While hydroxychloroquine is likely to be safe for 90 percent of the population, Ackerman said, it could pose serious and potentially lethal risks to a small number of those susceptible to heart conditions, especially those with other chronic medical problems already on multiple medications.

It’s a good thing that COVID-19 doesn’t seem to impact the elderly, a group much more likely to fall into those two categories, more, otherwise it would seem rushing to prescribe/suggest that people take that drug would rather be like ‘solving’ the problem of russian roulette by adding in a second bullet.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 'If this doesn't kill you that likely will'

Exactly. Even if it weren’t for his audience being utter morons in the sense that they take whatever random similar-sounding chemicals they find around the house, he’s essentially telling people to self-medicate and there’s a definite risk there with any drug. Anyone who takes his advice is at a non-zero risk of killing themselves.

I don’t think it will happen, but I would love it if figures were compiled on exactly how many people Trump has killed with his irresponsible advice. Sadly, all that will likely happen is that he’ll take credit as if he personally discovered the drug if this gamble works, or more likely find something else to distract.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6 "We must be seen doing something, even if it kills peopl

So the antivaxxers, who claim to be in the right because of a substance they don’t like that could affect a small part of the population… are now pushing Trump’s proposed substance, which could affect a small part of the population? Am I reading that right?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 You do the best you can do, with the knowledge you have

"If the best we can do now is suggest a drug that may help (some weak evidence) and won’t do much harm (decades of experience) then you suggest it."

That may be fair. However, Trump did not do that. He kept referring to hydroxychloroquine as a miracle cure – causing shortages for people who already needed it for other things – and the drug is known to have severe side effects for people suffering from certain heart and other conditions.

"won’t do much harm" in this case means "causing people to die".

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

And what about trump’s miracle cure?

Given his track record of supporting things that inevitably turn to shit, he’s the last fucking person on the planet I’d take medical advice from.

I’d be better off asking the magic 8-ball for advice.

Wow! Like, suddenly, everybody is cured, the hospitals are empty, and only radical leftists, who won’t take the malaria drug, are dying.

Apart from within the confines of your head, where exactly is this happening?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

And what about trump’s miracle cure?

Hydroxychloroquine has been around for decades. Some report came out of Europe that it may be effective in treating COVID-19. Another hack reads this and posts some claims that it’s the cure on a random ultra-right-wing WordPress site. Trump reads this, believes it, and repeats the lie to millions on a daily basis.

A. This isn’t "Trump’s miracle cure". It belongs to many others, but not Trump.
B. It is not even close to proven to be effective and may well be killing people.
C. Right-wing nutjob blog sites are not trustworthy news sites.
D. The drug is not "Trump’s" but he is responsible for what people do after listening to his lies.

Trump is a menace to society. He needs to be removed from office along with all of his dumb-as-posts family and cronies. And you are just as bad for spreading the lies and misinformation, even for simply believing everything Trump says like a good little fellator-in-chief.

Everything you say is bad and you should feel bad.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

…and as I keep trying to stress:

E. The drug is vital for things not related to COVID-19, and people who were already talking it are having their lives put in jeopardy due to Trump’s incompetent messaging.

He’s not only killing the morons who take aquarium cleaner because it has a similar name, he’s killing people who were taking Hydroxychloroquine before he caused a shortage.

Code Monkey (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

D. The drug is not "Trump’s" but he is responsible for what people do after listening to his lies.

No, he’s not responsible for people doing stupid shit. They choose to do stupid shit for…..reasons. Those same people, if they got divorced, would still be legally brother and sister…… lol

The old saying "So, if everyone else jumped off a cliff……."

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Re:

"No, he’s not responsible for people doing stupid shit. "

Yes, he is. He said some stupid shit, which led directly to people doing something stupid. Yes, intelligent people would not have done that, but even the stupid ones would not have done it without his prompting.

"The old saying "So, if everyone else jumped off a cliff…….""

The people who would do that voted for the bankrupt conman. That’s the problem…

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
DannyB (profile) says:

This article is about a company trying to weasel out of an arbitration barrage:

But a federal judge in San Francisco wasn’t willing to go along with it. The judge, William Alsup, ordered DoorDash in February to proceed with the American Arbitration Association cases and pay the fees.

But in a hearing, Judge Alsup questioned whether the company and its lawyers really believed that.

“Your law firm and all the defense law firms have tried for 30 years to keep plaintiffs out of court,” the judge told lawyers for Gibson Dunn late last year. “And so finally someone says, ‘OK, we’ll take you to arbitration,’ and suddenly it’s not in your interest anymore. Now you’re wiggling around, trying to find some way to squirm out of your agreement.”

“There is a lot of poetic justice here,” the judge added.

Judge Alsup was the judge who learned Java in order to understand the Oracle vs Google case better.

ECA (profile) says:

As is happening.

How many Console game system are About to go, rent games only.
After a few years, that Game on the old systems..
Stop working cause there are no Central servers.
Very Few single player games.
Games that are NOT fully loaded onto your console, most of it is sent to you, instantly to play each time you play.
Old tech(3-5 years) dont play future games.
Apple is of the idea of a New phone every year..Whats your idea on this.

Anyone remember when Cable boxes Started Happening? Encoding and decoding Analog frequencies. Then every 10 years change the box. Umm did you KNOW, that you can buy the box? AND ITS LEGAL.(if you could find it) Its like buying your own modem for the internet.

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chineseladydate

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We negotiate a licence with you if possible or provide you with with whoever holds the rights if they are not ours.

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Bartonsgn (user link) says:

mature russian mom

Classes About Death Lend Meaning someone’s

BlogsCelebrating LifeComforting WordsSincere CondolencesTools for Tough TimesWidow on this planet, All BlogsIn yet another example of how death is creeping greater numbers of into our collective conversations openly, Candidly and practically a number of college level courses are on offer on the topic. and not simply for future morticians! Philosophical, Forward imagining and cathartic, quite possibly, here are just a few examples of current course descriptions.From Kean university or in Union, new jersey: Death in belief The past, Present and future personalised and societal concepts of dying, murder and bereavement, Death education and hunt for related ethical issues. A field trip is necessary.Open Yale program (Audio or down loadable videos): this program will examine a number of issues that arise once we begin to reflect on our mortality. the possibility that death may not actually be the end is considered. shall we be held, a number of sense, Immortal? Would growing old be desirable? Also a clearer notion of the reasoning to die is examined. or, certainly, Different attitudes to death are looked at. How should increasing quite that I am going to die affect the way I live my life?Boston or even: Death and Immortality Examines death as religious traditions have attempted to accept, ruin, Deny or go beyond it. Do we’ve found souls? can they reincarnate? Other topics insure cremation, Ancestor worship, Apocalypse, Alchemy, products, Near death feedback, Other industry cosmologies.The class at Kean is said to have lines of students waiting to enroll.doctor. Bowe takes individuals in the course on field trips to a graveyard, A mortuary and a maximum reliability men’s prison. One class even went to Virginia Tech to pay their respects marriage shootings there.Assignments for the class have included the foregoing:Write about the time you walked through fire your life’s hardest moment and how you came out of that have alive. who has been there for you? How did you pass it? How made it happen change you?What religious or spiritual practice companies, If much, And how does it impact your beliefs about what happens when we die?should you have had a year left to live, What would you should do before you died? gather your bucket list.if you had a rewind button for your life, what would you go back change?If you could speak to yourself growing up, what would you say? What advice ever give?Write your own house eulogy.When asked to tell about their class journey, One individual wrote: "one good reason I took this class was to relieve some of my anxiety about death, And I think I have. I cannot allow fear to manipulate my life,Hyasaki now an assistant professor in the literary journalism department at the college or university of California, Irvine had an early exposure to death and the taboo of talking about it in high school when her good friend Sangeeta Lal, 16, Was killed by her boyfriend. Hyasaki wrote about it for the school paper and was punished by a teacher for writing "Such gory specifics of a classmate’s murder,Hyasaki publishes articles, "It was then I realized how taboo the main topic of death was and how scared people were to face it,years later, On assignment in New York for the new york Times, Hyasaki found out about Dr. Norma Bowe’s popular class <a href=https://www.bestbrides.net/signs-that-vietnamese-women-like-you/>how to tell if a vietnamese girl likes you</a> on death at Kean University in New Jersey and signed up to cover and participate.In a job interview with The Atlantic, Hyasaki replied, "it is possible to death cafs, Death meals, A death spa. That brought in various scholars and folks talking about death. But these things are happening with the younger generation and baby boomers, And it’s clearly a reaction against how our society has habitually treated death. Death has been so sanitized. We’re afraid to express it. That’s changed considering the 1960s. until then, You never had these discussions in the open. But now it’s changing additional. guests want open, Honest conversations about it,And many of the students, She highlights in the book, "Needed to process a personal experience with death,examination the book in The Boston Globe said, "Students are drawn by Bowe’s galvanic personality and the chance to ponder basic questions regarding what constitutes a good life and a good death. This is not the abstract careful consideration of a typical college seminar; Students end up facing fears and traumas from their own lives,and even, you might find, How to proceed. After a class stop by at a hospice care facility, One smaller woman wrote, "They are people who lived their lives and are probably wiser than any of us, But they’re facing death and disease. I can tell that some of them feel embarrassed that they are in that condition and I’m going to spend as much time with (My grandmother and grandfather as) I can and ever miss the chance to tell them how much I appreciate them.
[—-]

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