'More Realistic' Modelling Of TPP's Effects Predicts 450,000 US Jobs Lost, Contraction Of Economy

from the accelerating-the-global-race-to-the-bottom dept

Last week we wrote about a World Bank report that predicted that TPP would produce negligible boosts to the economies of the US, Australia and Canada. Of course, that's just one study, and it could be argued that it might be unrepresentative, or unduly pessimistic. That makes the publication of yet more econometric modelling of what could happen particularly welcome. It comes from Jerome Capaldo and Alex Izurieta at Tufts University, and starts off by making an important point that is too often overlooked when considering other TPP predictions:

The standard model assumes full employment and invariant income distribution, ruling out the main risks of trade and financial liberalization. Subject to these assumptions, it finds positive effects on growth. An important question, therefore, is how this conclusion changes if those assumptions are dropped.
Assuming that TPP won't change employment levels in any of the participating nations seems a stretch, not least because previous trade liberalization has caused sizable job losses, as the new study notes. At the very least, it means that those using these models to argue in favor of TPP shouldn't be making any claims about its effects on employment, since these don't exist by definition. Capaldo and Izurieta are able to look at how jobs are affected because they use a different model, which they claim is superior to the one found in most other studies:
In this paper, we review existing projections of the TPP and propose alternative ones based on more realistic assumptions about economic adjustment and income distribution. We start from the trade projections put forward in the main existing study and explore their macroeconomic consequences using the United Nations Global Policy Model.
Most of the paper is spent taking a rather critical look at previous results, and will probably be mostly of interest to economists, especially academic ones. But the final results of the new calculation are certainly worth noting:
Given the small changes in net exports, the resulting changes in GDP growth are mostly projected to be negligible. We present two sets of growth figures: ten-year totals, which measure the overall effect of the TPP on growth rates compared to the baseline, and annual averages, which measure the average changes in growth rates due to the TPP.
That underlines another point often missed: that the GDP growth figures quoted by politicians and TPP supporters reflect the overall effect after ten years. Here's what Capaldo and Izurieta found:
Total ten-year changes in growth rates are projected to be below one percent, by 2025, in all regions but two. In East Asia and Latin America, GDP growth is projected to increase by 2.18 percent and 2.84 percent respectively under the TPP. By comparison, during 2005-2015, GDP in the two regions is estimated to have grown by 50 percent and 47 percent respectively.

The US and Japan are projected to suffer net losses of GDP of 0.54 percent and 0.12 percent respectively compared to the baseline
Although those growth figures are worse than previous predictions, they confirm that TPP's impact on GDPs will be small. What's new in this paper is an estimation of the agreement's effect on jobs:
While projected employment losses are small compared to the labor force, they clearly signal an adverse effect of liberalization not taken into account in full-employment models. In TPP countries, the largest effect will occur in the US, with approximately 450,000 jobs lost by 2025. Japan and Canada follow, with approximately 75,000 and 58,000 jobs lost respectively. The smallest loss -- approximately 5,000 jobs -- is projected to occur in New Zealand, where the increase in net exports is projected to be the largest. Overall, projected job losses in TPP countries amount to 771,000 jobs.
Also novel is the report's comments about the global effects of TPP:
when analyzed with a model that recognizes the risks of trade liberalization, the TPP appears to only marginally change competitiveness among participating countries. Most gains are therefore obtained at the expense of non-TPP countries.

Globally, the TPP favors competition on labor costs and remuneration of capital. Depending on the policy choices in non-TPP countries, this may accelerate the global race to the bottom, increasing downward pressure on labor incomes in a quest for ever more elusive trade gains.
Although this is just one (more) study, it does seem to confirm the more gloomy predictions for TPP. It inevitably poses a key question with yet more force: why exactly are politicians in TPP nations pushing so hard to ratify a controversial agreement that seems have few quantifiable benefits, and very considerable costs?

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  1. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 12:32am

    The most likely reason is these politicians have been promised massive payoffs for pushing this through.

    Out of all the politicians in the US I can count maybe a dozen that still hold true to the ideals of integrity and honouring their oath. The rest should be lined up and shot for putting their personal wealth and priviledge ahead of their jobs and oaths, even when it causes harm to the people they are supposed to be protecting and helping.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  2. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 1:19am

    and the fucking idiots will STILL carry on selling it until it's actually in force and shit hits fan!!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3. icon
    Ninja (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 1:34am

    why exactly are politicians in TPP nations pushing so hard to ratify a controversial agreement that seems have few quantifiable benefits, and very considerable costs?

    Every time you have to ask why in politics the answer is: because somebody got a load of money. And often there's a politician benefited with campaign money.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4. identicon
    David, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:39am

    Are you serious?

    why exactly are politicians in TPP nations pushing so hard to ratify a controversial agreement that seems have few quantifiable benefits, and very considerable costs?

    Because they benefit from a redistribution of wealth to the top? The cost of unemployment is one mostly borne by the little people, either directly or in more social economies by taxation. Corporations are better off by being able to produce where it is cheapest. Greasing politicians is a small expense in comparison.

    And in the U.S., the political caste is directly financed by large corporations, and in the E.U., the European Commission as a principal utterly undemocratic decision-making body is run by corporations and lobbyists.

    So there is little incentive for the politicians to make sensible decisions for global economy, in particularly pertaining to poor people.

    This can't go on forever. But then this was already the conclusion of Karl Marx, and he'd probably be surprised at how few untenable things have actually changed for the better in all these years.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  5. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:42am

    The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    So roughly half a million people lose their jobs, I'm sure the corporations will come out great, that's a fair trade, right?

    /s

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  6. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 3:04am

    I am happy to see more modern day workers analysis and environmental model analysis in politics. It constantly challenges the standard model to evolve. Unfortunately most libertarians don't believe in modeling economics, but the flexibility of neo-classical models are plenty to cover that base.

    I think we have seen enough data on models to conclude that the economic effects are very limited in either direction, making it necenssary for politicians to look at if the compromises are politically desirable.

    In theory the liberal/anarchistic way is happyness about less government interference and less laws and therefore a yes.
    The conservative/nationalistic way is extreme scepticism at the amount of compromises and a high likelyhood to vote no.
    The socialistic/communistic ideals should dictate that the above analysis is most relevant and the effects therefore are damaging, making them likely to vote no.

    But todays politics is penetrated by special interests to an extent where politicians cannot navigate without using the trade agreement to:
    1. Gather intel on what different lobbyists want
    2. Look at previous donations and make up x opinions from the most opportune lobbyists
    3. Play the lobbyists into a betting war for which of the x opinions he/she is to choose
    4. Take the opinion with the highest pledge as his/her own or simply choose the party-line, where this small-ball extortion (not meant as the legal definition, but as a very lob-sided negotiation position where favours are traded) game has gone pro

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  7. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:00am

    That is right up the POTUS alley

    Job loss here is exactly what the POTUS wants.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  8. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:02am

    Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    And to think everyone actually believes the Democrats are for the little guy. They are for the little guy staying little and the middle guys becoming little.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  9. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:18am

    Re:

    The rest should be lined up and shot for putting their personal wealth and priviledge ahead of their jobs and oaths, even when it causes harm to the people they are supposed to be protecting and helping.

    Because summary execution is the way to stay true to American ideals?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:24am

    Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    fire a thousand people then give yourself a 500k bonus for saving the company 10 thousand in salaries, minus your bonus of course.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  11. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:49am

    Re: Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    fire a thousand people then give yourself a 500k bonus for saving the company 10 thousand in salaries, minus your bonus of course.

    A thousand employees making $10 a year each? Hard to imagine they would even miss the the 2.7 cents a day salary.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  12. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:19am

    Re: Re:

    I think the AC is referring to treason. The term and penalty is defined as such;

    "Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and ..."

    I'm not exactly sure corruption and greed qualify as treason. But should they receive a fair trial, and then be found guilty of treason, then I would agree with the AC.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  13. identicon
    The Gullible Awards, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:28am

    Congratulations on your win!

    We would like to congratulate you on your win of the 'Gullible Person of the Day Award', for being the first person we've run across today that's fallen for the oldest trick in the political book:

    'My Tribe vs Your Tribe'.

    Your complementary trophy has been dispatched to you, and will arrive in 3-5 business days, please stay next to your mailbox until it arrives to assure that you receive it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  14. icon
    DannyB (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:38am

    As long as the RIGHT peole make money . . .

    . . . then it doesn't matter how many jobs are lost or how much the economy contracts. It's just that many more people willing to beg to serve the wealthy in exchange for scraps.

    It's the way it's always been. The way it always will be.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  15. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    I'm not exactly sure corruption and greed qualify as treason.

    They definitely don't.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  16. identicon
    Capt ICE Enforcer, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:47am

    The reason for your key question

    Mr. Moody,

    After spending a good 30 seconds contemplating the complexity of your question on why politicians are seeming to want to push this bill thru. I have been able to able find the answer you were looking to find.

    Politicians love playing golf, and TPP is attached to a must pass and get ratified bill requiring all politicians get 4 hours per day of free golf. It would be political suicide if they voted against the golf bill

    I sincerely hope this helps you out Mr Moody.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "They definitely don't."

    You may be right, but I'm not so sure. IANAL But IMO; If a politician was corrupt, and that corruption was giving the enemies of this country "aid and comfort" either directly or indirectly by destroying our freedoms and ideals, I could see it qualifying as treason... but again, that is my personal opinion.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  18. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:17am

    Re: Congratulations on your win!

    I love how anytime someone points out the hypocrisy of the left they go with the your tribe/my tribe shtick. That seems to be a really popular one here. But say anything about the right and everyone says right on dude! Maybe the left should take their own advice and open their eyes?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  19. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:26am

    Re: Are you serious?

    "The cost of unemployment is one mostly borne by the little people"

    Yup. But you still should not shit where you sleep.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:29am

    Re: Re: Congratulations on your win!

    I love how people use stereotypes to pigeon hole others into generalizations of human activity - because everyone is the same, yup no differences at all.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  21. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:30am

    Re: Re: Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    Greed knows no bounds

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:33am

    Re: That is right up the POTUS alley

    Details please.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:35am

    Re: As long as the RIGHT peole make money . . .

    It's funny to watch some of the wealthy get nervous as the pendulum swings.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:39am

    Re: Re: Congratulations on your win!

    The above was mine by the way, and no, I do the same thing no matter what the party is, because scratch the surface and both sides are pretty much the same.

    The politicians from both are corrupt, care more for their own power than the welfare of the public, and show glaring hypocrisy on a regular basis.

    If someone wants to criticize 'trade' deals like the TPP, there's plenty to be critical of, but bringing party politics into is, as though both weren't responsible, is just distracting from the real issue, that of the TPP itself.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    IANAL either, but I'm pretty sure one cannot be convicted of treason for indirectly aiding enemies of the US. It has to be direct aid to a specific nation that is an enemy, though I don't know how "enemy" is defined. Does it require a state of war declared by Congress?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26. identicon
    Glyn Moody, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 7:04am

    Re: The reason for your key question

    It does: thanks for sorting that out.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27. icon
    JustMe (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 7:12am

    This isn't a 'Democrat' thing

    Sure, the Pres is going to sign it, but the Republican controlled congress is going to ratify it too. Instead, this is clearly a boon to the people who finance the professional politician class.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  28. icon
    Wyrm (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 7:36am

    Well, you can consider them as aiding terrorists (there is a declared "War on Terror" out there, wherever that "Terror" country is) by 1. maintaining a climate of fear and terror in the country and 2. undermining our values of democracy and freedom as per the terrorists' will.

    I'm sarcastic there, but I sometimes don't feel it's that much on an exaggeration.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  29. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 7:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Does it require a state of war declared by Congress?"

    I don't think so. The definition of "enemy of the United States" is; "government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities" See citation below.

    Hostilities is defined as "opposition or resistance to an idea, plan, project, etc, or and act of war. "Citation below"

    So I would gather from this that a politician could be considered a traitor by definition if; They knowingly received support or material aid from someone, and that someone was attempting to subvert the ideals of the United States.

    Citations;

    According to 50 USCS § 2204 [Title 50. War and National Defense; Chapter 39. Spoils of War], enemy of the United States means any country, government, group, or person that has been engaged in hostilities, whether or not lawfully authorized, with the United States;

    (3) the term "person" means

    (A) any natural person;

    (B) any corporation, partnership, or other legal entity; and

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hostilities
    (C) any organization, association, or group.

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/e/enemy-of-the-united-states/

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30. icon
    Blaine (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 7:45am

    Orrin Hatch's response to my request that he vote against TPP. Post yours.

    Thank you for your letter regarding the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) agreement. As you are undoubtedly aware, the economic and strategic architecture of the Asia-Pacific continues to evolve rapidly, and the United States must be fully engaged in the region to strengthen our alliances and harness new markets and consumers for American goods and services.

    In Utah, the TPP means more exports and more jobs which, given the state of America's economy, is essential to a sustained recovery and more individual opportunity. In 2010, $5.8 billion, or 39 percent, of Utah’s total exports went to markets in the Asia-Pacific region. The TPP agreement offers an opportunity to build on the highest standards and most ambitious market opening commitments in our current trade agreements. The TPP will address new areas which include: ensuring the free flow of data across borders, robust protection for trade secrets, and discipline for state-owned enterprises.

    The TPP agreement will provide dispute resolution procedures, such as investor-state dispute resolution, to protect US companies exporting to the Pacific region, ensuring the market access gained in the TPP agreement is not diminished by non-tariff barriers. While the final agreement has not been reached, the Administration has supported provisions extending these dispute procedures to all chapters of the agreement. However, I have worked to ensure those procedures are not extended beyond the framework of our recent trade agreements for chapters in the TPP on labor and the environment. I will not support any legislation, agreement or treaty that encroaches upon American legal sovereignty. As Chairman of the Senate Committee on Finance, I will continue to hold the administration accountable to ensure that the negotiating objectives in the TPP are grounded in U.S. law. Viewpoints such as yours are important in informing this discussion, and I thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

    Thank you, again, for contacting me with your comments. If you would like to have regular updates on my work in the U.S. Senate, I encourage you to subscribe to my E-newsletter , visit my Facebook page, and follow me on Twitter .

    Your Senator,

    Orrin G. Hatch
    United States Senator

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    TPP provides laws that would circumvent US Sovereignty which will directly provide aid to foreign enemies through 3rd party courts.

    Just because you can put a pretty bow on a foreign enemy attacking you financially should not allow you to escape a charge of treason!

    They are knowingly GIVING AWAY AMERICAN SOVEREIGNTY which is NOT A POWER DEFINED IN THE US CONSTITUTION FOR ANY BRANCH OF GOVERNMENT!

    All persons voting for and supporting TPP are the VERY DEFINITION OF A TRAITOR!

    They can negotiate a lot of trade agreements but they do not have the power and authority to modify sovereignty in this manor! But since they have already successfully assaulted every other amendment to the constitution without much of a fucking peep from "The People"... tell me where and when do you expect they will stop this tyranny? That right... at the foot of a pool of someone's blood... 'The People's' which is already being spilled or 'Tyrant's' which has yet to be spilled?

    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. The founding fathers were very clear that it is not a matter of IF but a matter of WHEN our government became corrupt that we need to do something about it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:35am

    Re: Re: That is right up the POTUS alley

    They are all in the TPP, Obamacare, and the complete non-enforcement of immigration law.

    If you have not figured it out by now... you never will. Even if Obama came down and fired you himself you would not be able to figure it out!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:41am

    Re: Orrin Hatch's response to my request that he vote against TPP. Post yours.

    Subtext: the TPP is very good for businesses that contribute to my reelection campaigns.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:42am

    Re: Orrin Hatch's response to my request that he vote against TPP. Post yours.

    On the one hand...

    The TPP agreement will provide dispute resolution procedures, such as investor-state dispute resolution, to protect US companies exporting to the Pacific region, ensuring the market access gained in the TPP agreement is not diminished by non-tariff barriers.

    On the other hand...

    I will not support any legislation, agreement or treaty that encroaches upon American legal sovereignty.

    Either he's ignorant of just what corporate sovereignty provisions are typically used for, arrogant enough to think that they'd never be used against the US, or confident enough that those who contact him will be stupid enough to buy the PR.

    As Chairman of the Senate Committee on Finance, I will continue to hold the administration accountable to ensure that the negotiating objectives in the TPP are grounded in U.S. law.

    Given that claim, I certainly hope he voted against fast track authority, given it basically forces him to vote 'yes' or 'no' on any 'trade' agreement up for vote.

    Oh, right...

    The Senate voted 62-37 to give this president and the next so-called trade promotion authority, ensuring that Congress could not amend or filibuster any trade accord negotiated over the next three-to-six years, though lawmakers could reject it.

    Senator Orrin G. Hatch of Utah, chairman of the Senate Finance Committee and usually a foe of Mr. Obama’s, called it “likely the most important bill we’ll pass this year,” adding, “it shows that when the president is right we will support him.”


    Claims to be firmly committed to making sure that any trade negotiations are 'grounded in US law', supports a process that bars him from doing anything but voting yes or no on TPP or any other 'trade' agreement, before he could possibly know what was in it.

    Yeah, intentionally ignorant or a liar, one of the two.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So I would gather from this that a politician could be considered a traitor by definition if; They knowingly received support or material aid from someone, and that someone was attempting to subvert the ideals of the United States.

    The other way around: giving aid and comfort, not receiving it. And regarding your citations, the important thing is how a word is defined in law, not in a regular dictionary. I suspect opposing the ideals of the US would not qualify as hostilities for the purposes of a treason trial.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:46am

    Re: Re: Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    You laugh, but I still can't break the $8 per year mark.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  37. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:47am

    Re: Re: Orrin Hatch's response to my request that he vote against TPP. Post yours.

    Either he's ignorant of just what corporate sovereignty provisions are typically used for, arrogant enough to think that they'd never be used against the US, or confident enough that those who contact him will be stupid enough to buy the PR.

    3 seems very likely but doesn't exclude either or both of the others from being true at the same time.


    Yeah, intentionally ignorant or a liar, one of the two.


    Again, not mutually exclusive. :-)

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 8:48am

    Re: Re: As long as the RIGHT peole make money . . .

    The only way the pendulum is swinging is further in their direction. The middle class is disappearing, the lower class's wages aren't keeping up with inflation, and inordinate percentages of new wealth are going to the already wealthy.

    What world do you live in where "the pendulum swings?"

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 9:45am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "The other way around: giving aid and comfort, not receiving it"

    Semantics. Receiving money and providing a service qualifies as support, it would still qualify.

    Legal definition applies as well.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/hostility

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  40. identicon
    RD, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 9:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Really? Then explain Ed Snowden.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41. icon
    Whatever (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 9:54am

    Part of the problem of the report cited is that the first named author, Jeronim Capaldo, seems to have been on an anti -TTP run for quite a while already. There seems to be plenty of debate around the subject, particularly as Capaldo seems to be very attached to one economic theory and heavily discounts any other.

    The problem with any trade deal is that there will be losses and there will be gains. The discussions at this point are near meaningless arguments between tenured professors, think tank wonks, economic theorists. It's not at all that they "seem to confirm the more gloomy predictions for TPP.", mostly it's an argument about "my calculations are better than your calculations". The true impact will be known if and when it happens, and not on some theoretical model basis.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:02am

    This is an optimistic projection ,
    who know what it will cost if 1000,s of european countrys
    companys were to turn around and sue american states for isds loss of profit ,or vice versa american companys
    sue eu governments
    even american companys are now relocating to the eu
    to save tax.
    Think the billions spent on patent lawsuits and multiply that by 100 .

    Food and drug rules and patent laws are much more consumer friendly in the eu .
    See the lawsuit of the canadian pipeline ,
    one company wants 15billion,
    multiply thAT BY 100 OR 1000 IF TTP gets through .
    TTP is a gift to large corporations and corporate lawyers .
    its an attack on consumer rights and the power of
    small countrys to make laws to protect consumer rights .
    American corporations have already decimated usa union rights now its the turn of consumers
    and citizens of other countrys to brought under their control .
    American citizens rights have been sold down the river for
    a paltry 0.1 per cent increase in gdp .
    Its the worst international deal since sopa .

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:09am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I don't think either definition of hostility would apply to someone engaging in corrupt practices with a lawmaker.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Really? Then explain Ed Snowden.

    Explain what? He hasn't been charged with treason.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:12am

    Re:

    The true impact will be known if and when it happens, and not on some theoretical model basis.

    So we should just go ahead and do it in case it will turn out great?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:31am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I disagree. If the person engaging in the corrupt practices is doing so for the purpose of damaging the ideal's of the U.S., then they clearly meet a layman's understanding of the term "traitor".

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47. identicon
    AJ, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:38am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He wasn't charged with treason. I don't think we've had anyone officially charged with Treason since Axis Sally and Tokyo Rose after WW2.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:41am

    Re:

    The problem with any trade deal is that there will be losses and there will be gains.

    And in every study so far that I've seen the gains are minuscule at best, assuming best case scenarios over decades, while the losses tend to be much more visible and immediate, ranging from copyright lock-in and expansion, criminal trade secret protections, and my favorite, allowing companies to sue governments if the government does something that impacts their profits or even their expected profits.

    I'm seeing plenty of downsides, but very little upsides here.

    The discussions at this point are near meaningless arguments between tenured professors, think tank wonks, economic theorists.

    For the sake of balance I certainly hope you're as dismissive of any pro-TPP studies as 'near meaningless' and therefore not worth the paper their printed on.

    The true impact will be known if and when it happens, and not on some theoretical model basis.

    Yeah, no, that is an absolutely terrible idea. You do not pass something this huge, that will have significant impact on multiple countries, and get away with 'Well it's too early to say really, we'll just have to wait and see what it does'. If multiple studies are showing that the gains are barely there at best, while the downsides are immediate, you shut it down, not pass it and hope for the best.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49. icon
    Uriel-238 (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:42am

    My senator speaks

    From the Senator of California, Dianne Feinstein

    Dear Ms. [REDACTED]:

    Thank you for contacting me to express your concerns regarding the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I appreciate the time you took to write, and I welcome the opportunity to respond.

    First, please know that as a U.S. Senator, I carefully review each free trade agreement that comes before me to ensure that the best interests of American workers and businesses are served, and that the agreement will not adversely affect the U.S. economy, human rights, labor rights or environmental standards.

    After seven years of negotiations, on October 5, 2015, the participating nations announced that an agreement had finally been concluded. The TPP is a free-trade agreement among 12 countries including, Australia, Brunei, Chile, Malaysia, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam, Canada, Mexico, Japan, and the United States. The agreement cannot come into effect until it is approved by the House of Representatives and the Senate.

    As you may be aware, I voted in favor of Trade Promotion Authority (TPA)—otherwise known as fast-track authority—because it granted the President the ability to finalize important trade legislation, such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).

    Under Trade Promotion Authority, the President must notify Congress at least 90 days before signing the agreement, and text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership must be made public for at least 60 days prior to signing the agreement. On November 5, 2015, President Obama notified Congress of his intent to sign the trade agreement, and the full text of it was made available to the public. The text can be found on the United States Trade Representative's website http://ustr.gov.

    At this time, my staff and I are carefully reviewing every aspect of the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I believe that expanding trade with our neighbors while balancing our domestic priorities is in our national interest. However, if I come to the conclusion that the agreement would negatively affect California, I will not hesitate to oppose it.

    Please know that I have taken careful note of your views on this important issue, and I will keep your thoughts in mind as I review the final text of TPP.

    Again, thank you for your letter. I hope you continue to keep me informed on matters of importance to you. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to contact my Washington, D.C., office at (202) 224-3841 or visit my website at www.feinstein.senate.gov. Best regards.

    Sincerely yours,

    Dianne Feinstein
    United States Senator

    Further information about my position on issues of concern to California and the nation are available at my website, feinstein.senate.gov. And please visit my YouTube, Facebook and Twitter for more ways to communicate with me.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 11:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If the person engaging in the corrupt practices is doing so for the purpose of damaging the ideal's of the U.S., then they clearly meet a layman's understanding of the term "traitor".

    Probably, but that is completely irrelevant to the question of whether they could be charged and convicted of treason. And unless I misread something that was the original point. I admit that the original use of the word could have been intended colloquially and not legally.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 11:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "damaging the ideal's of the U.S"

    What does that mean?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52. identicon
    RD, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 11:57am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And yet nearly every single congresscritter is calling for him to be tried for treason. The only reason he hasn't yet is because he isn't here. The *second * he were to step on US soil, they would have him up on treason charges.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 12:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    He has already been charged with other crimes in absentia, why would they wait for him to arrive to add treason to the list? I think a much more likely explanation is that they know such a charge wouldn't be successful.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54. identicon
    Paul, Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:10pm

    Re: Are you serious?

    Higher unemployment increases the competition for jobs which will drive the rate per hour down. Another win for corporations.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:22pm

    Follow the money.

    why exactly are politicians in TPP nations pushing so hard to ratify a controversial agreement that seems have few quantifiable benefits, and very considerable costs?

    ... seems to have few quantifiable benefits ..." for you and me. For Big Pharma, the MafiAA, Imaginary Property (IP) holders, copyright fascisti, and (IP related) lawyers on the other hand not to mention greedy politicians who desperately want campaign donations or lucrative industry jobs they can slide into, there are astronomically lucrative benefits on the table. Cf. Kim Dotcom for instance, or Eli Lilly.

    TPP is our elected governments co-opted into the service of a small clique of politically connected (read "campaign donations") corporate special interests. It's essentially a coup; a small "c" coup, but pretty much the same thing. They've hijacked our democratically elected governments in order to serve them in certain small, but lucrative, ways.

    If it wasn't so smarmy, it'd almost be admirable they managed to pull off such a bizarre scheme. So far, they're getting away with it. It's pretty much the definition of chutzpah!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:29pm

    Re: Re:

    The rest should be lined up and shot for putting their personal wealth and priviledge ahead of their jobs and oaths ...

    Because summary execution is the way to stay true to American ideals?

    You have a problem with that? Care to explain why? We put down rabid animals for a reason. We fight diseases for a reason. What does ignoring their predation gain anyone?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 2:47pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    You have a problem with that? Care to explain why?

    Because the rights outlined in the Constitution, such as due process and a fair trial, must apply to everyone.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:05pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    It has to be direct aid to a specific nation that is an enemy, though I don't know how "enemy" is defined.

    I'm libertarian (sort of; it's the closest, best word). I define "enemy" as "predator." We're presumed to have risen above that "long in tooth and claw" acceptance of predators among us preying on the weak among us. That's what civilization is. We celebrate every second Stephen Hawking beats Lou Gehrig's disease. We help the mentally or physically feeble to fit in and count as much as they can, accepting their limitations. Cf. Stephen Hawking.

    I don't much care about nations or rulers or regimes. That's just gang warfare to me. Politicians playing that sort of game in a predatory manner are unwelcome in my eyes. We can all do without them. They're no better than Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer. Greater humanity would be greater if they didn't exist. They're throwbacks. I've no problem eliminating them from the gene pool. They don't accept our conditions, they're welcome to live off by themselves alone as best they can. We shouldn't suffer their existence among the rest of us who do live peacefully among others.

    I include HRC and Trump in that category of predator. We need neither.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59. icon
    Whatever (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:11pm

    Re: Re:

    No, but you shouldn't let one sided studies be your guide either.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60. icon
    Whatever (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:23pm

    Re: Re:

    I am equally dismissive of studies written by the other side that claim gumballs and lollipops for everyone as we stroll down the golden roads of trade. It's just not very simple.

    "And in every study so far that I've seen the gains are minuscule at best"

    That is in no small part because the anti-TPP types are spinning hard trying to get some SOPA like support, and finding very little true support. Of course, you don't have to go any further than the Brookings Institute to find cheerleaders for TTP.

    http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/future-development/posts/2015/05/05-tpp-trade-meltzer

    I tend to find his writings a little too positive, but there ya go. The positive exists, and from someone with a decent position in a reputable institution.

    "Yeah, no, that is an absolutely terrible idea. You do not pass something this huge,"

    The thing is, you can end up in a situation where if you allow the negative opinions to rule the day, that you will never do anything. The studies land the numbers all over the place, and it's hard to tell the true outcome - but that the true outcome is likely not a whole lot worse than our current conditions. If it's truly horrible, countries will find ways to back out of the deal, nobody has a gun to their heads.

    As always, the US, Europe, and certain other counties have more to lose because they are richer and better off. Trade deals with partners with weaker economies and lower wages generally means that yes, some of your lower paying manufacturing jobs will be driven offshore. However, like we have seen with China, that does tend to drive the development of a middle class and rising expectations in the previously poor population. China is now one of the major consumers of higher end luxury brands and products. You cannot say that trade with China is all bad.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61. icon
    JMT (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:23pm

    Re: Re:

    "Because summary execution is the way to stay true to American ideals?"

    Why do so many people struggle with obvious hyperbole?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:38pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Really? Then explain Ed Snowden.

    Explain what? He hasn't been charged with treason.

    That you know of. Even the World Court in the Hague does "sealed indictments." What do you expect would happen if he returned?

    This is why Assange is holed up in a consulate. The US has been building a case against him in secret, just waiting to get their hands on (hooks into) him. The moment he steps out, he's shipped off to a partner country, they extradite to the USA, and that's the last anyone will hear of him.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:58pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Why do so many people struggle with obvious hyperbole?

    Because it's not obvious. I promise you there are people who believe that corrupt politicians and judges should literally be put against a wall and shot without a trial, and I can't tell if this is one of them.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 4:59pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    That you know of.

    Sure, but the implication of the question "how do you explain Snowden?" is it's obvious he has been charged with treason.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:08pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Because the rights outlined in the Constitution, such as due process and a fair trial, must apply to everyone.

    I'm very much in favor of both. I don't assume he was talking about lynch mobs or British naval ship captains dealing with mutiny on the high seas.

    I assume he was writing about slimy politicians acting like blood sucking parasites on the body politic. Awaiting a firing squad at dawn after they've been duly convicted, with due process and a fair trial, is more than they deserve. They're the aggressors (predators), assuming guilty convictions. We needn't consider their feelings. The sooner they're out of our hair, the sooner we can get back to our lives sans their intrusions upon them.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:26pm

    Re: Are you serious?

    But then this was already the conclusion of Karl Marx ...

    It was likely the same conclusion of Spartacus.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 5:51pm

    Re: Re: Congratulations on your win!

    I love how anytime someone points out the hypocrisy of the left they go with the your tribe/my tribe shtick. ... But say anything about the right and everyone says right on dude!

    I'm sick to death of all you Red Team vs. Blue Team idiots. I slam both of you equally. You're both just two sides of the same coin. You're both the enemy of "We, The People", you assholes!

    Which is the worst power monger slavering to get control of your tax dollars and your military, HRC or Trump?

    Both of you ALWAYS SEE PARTISANSHIP NOT ON YOUR SIDE. You are both so owned by your "pick a side and fight" BS, it's pathetic!

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68. icon
    tqk (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 6:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: That is right up the POTUS alley

    I take it you've not noticed both D & R are pushing TPP? Enjoy servitude, slave. You earned it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:35pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    That is in no small part because the anti-TPP types are spinning hard trying to get some SOPA like support,

    The World Bank is an anti-TPP type? And the US Dept. of Agriculture, they're anti-TPP types as well I take it?

    The studies land the numbers all over the place, and it's hard to tell the true outcome

    Not really. Even the pro-TPP studies I've seen mentioned, once you actually dig into the numbers show that the potential gains are tiny, and based upon best case scenarios over long periods of time, something other studies seem to back up pretty consistently, showing that while there may be some growth, it's likely to be very small.

    With the economic gains negligible at best, you then move on to the other factors that I listed above, which are guaranteed to come into play, immediately. Copyright expansion and lock-in, corporate sovereignty giving companies the ability to sue governments in a completely one-sided 'court' for losses of current of expected profits, criminalizing trade secret violations, extended patents leading to increased healthcare costs...

    When the gains are theoretical and insignificant, and the losses are immediate and notable, the proper response is not 'let's wait and see', it's 'kill it off and start from scratch'.

    If it's truly horrible, countries will find ways to back out of the deal, nobody has a gun to their heads.

    And what better time to do that than before it's ever signed?

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70. icon
    That One Guy (profile), Jan 20th, 2016 @ 10:50pm

    Re: My senator speaks

    As you may be aware, I voted in favor of Trade Promotion Authority (TPA)—otherwise known as fast-track authority—because it granted the President the ability to finalize important trade legislation, such as the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP).

    It's a good thing she voted for FTA then, why can you imagine the alternative, with no-one in the government authorized to finalize trade agreements? Thing would just be sitting there, with absolutely no-one capable of voting for it's passage or rejection, completely wasting all the time and effort put into them.

    Oh, right, that was her job before she handed it over to the current and next president, she's just too freakin' lazy and irresponsible to do it right.

    At this time, my staff and I are carefully reviewing every aspect of the Trans-Pacific Partnership. I believe that expanding trade with our neighbors while balancing our domestic priorities is in our national interest.

    No, as a matter of fact, she is not. How do I know this? Because the TPP is over six thousand pages long, and she has a few months(2-3 I think) at most to look over it before it comes to a vote. While doing her other duties. With that amount of text to wade through, in that amount of time, a cursory examination is the best she can manage.

    However, if I come to the conclusion that the agreement would negatively affect California, I will not hesitate to oppose it.

    And again, bull. Thanks to TPA, which she voted for, she is stuck with a blanket 'Yes' or 'No' vote for the entire thing, no matter how bad some sections are.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 5:40am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Carrying out US trade and foreign policy. :P

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 5:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    We're presumed* to have risen above that "long in tooth and claw" acceptance of predators among us preying on the weak among us.

    *supposed

    The truth is, many of the big "L's" don't see it that way; indeed, they characterise it as "the market correcting itself." I've seen the Irish Potato Famines described in such terms and it made me sick.

    I see this socially as well as fiscally, the idea that might makes right. It doesn't. It makes a mess.

    We shouldn't suffer their existence among the rest of us who do live peacefully among others.

    Do you mind if I pull up a chair and dream along with you? I'd love to be able to push such people out of the way and live without them.

    TTIP, CETA, and TPP are predatory by nature and have little in the way of redeeming qualities. If they're negotiated in our name they ought to involve us in the negotiations instead of foisting them on us as a done deal. If they are representative of ideals, they're alien to mine. You can't live and let live from a gated community surrounded by shanty towns where the poorest, most desperate people scrape a living as best they can and that is not the kind of world I want to live in.

    In the race to the bottom we're all being dragged into, that's the end result.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 5:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Violence would result in martial law and lockdown. It also means you're unable to get the public onside.

    Start by working to build consensus, then use the democratic system to effect the change you want to see. If the Tea Party types can do it, so can we.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 5:58am

    So you're planning an armed revolt against the government

    H2: Can I watch? :H2

    An armed assault on any government installation would result in the kind of disproportionate violence displayed during SWAT raids. You're unlikely to achieve the results you were hoping for before they splatter your bullet-shredded corpse all over the place, then portray you in the mass media as a terrorist.

    --------------------------------------
    Feel free to save this comment as a .txt file to copy and paste as a response every time some prat recommends a violent revolution.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 6:00am

    Re: Re: Are you serious?

    The trouble with mentioning Marx is that the pro faction can use Red Scare rhetoric to put people off considering the truth of what is being said. I've seen that in a Parliamentary debate over here. From a Labour politician, no less.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76. identicon
    Wendy Cockcroft, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 6:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    Here, to boil your blood, is Professor Epstein: http://www.hoover.org/research/middle-out-economics

    Apparently there's no race to the bottom and your earning power will increase as you gain experience.

    Put a gumshoe in prior to reading this as you may end up grinding your teeth down to the gums while reading this drivel.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77. icon
    nasch (profile), Jan 21st, 2016 @ 7:33am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Don't confuse him with facts and reality when he's busy making up FUD.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78. identicon
    David, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 8:17am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    The World Bank is an anti-TPP type? And the US Dept. of Agriculture, they're anti-TPP types as well I take it?

    Well, yeah, there are a lot of those. Probably a large majority. That's why we have representative democracy: so that the decisions are not made by populous majorities only beholden to their own interests to the detriment of monetary majorities only beholden to their own interest.

    If money would not buy you politics, there would be no real incentive to become a billionaire. There's only so much food you can eat. Even in the U.S.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79. identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jan 21st, 2016 @ 5:08pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    "Part of the problem of the report cited is that the first named author, Jeronim Capaldo, seems to have been on an anti -TTP run for quite a while already"

    Funny, I seem to remember you harping on not criticizing arguments because of the people making them. What is it with you consistently doing the things you denigrate others for?

    "I am equally dismissive of studies written by the other side that claim gumballs and lollipops for everyone as we stroll down the golden roads of trade"

    Dude, seriously. Anyone can read your post history and see that you've never criticized TPP.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80. identicon
    Useless Eater, Jan 24th, 2016 @ 4:01pm

    Re:

    It is my expert opinion that you are most likely wrong about the dozen.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81. identicon
    Dianne Foster, Jan 30th, 2016 @ 10:32pm

    Re: Re: The wealth of a country is the wealth of it's corporations

    188 Dems voted against Fast Track, and 28 corporate Dems voted for it. It is not one party, it is 2: the people party and the money party.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82. icon
    Mike McRitchie (profile), Mar 9th, 2016 @ 10:07pm

    Wireless Telecom Jobs May Benefit From TPP

    I don't know if the TPP will benefit the U.S. or not but certainly investment in the U.S. could increase jobs. The Wireless Telecom Jobs market is still humming along as investment in a greater experience for cell phone users continues (see types of jobs available http://www.mikemcritchie.com/gmh4). Will TPP increase the numbers of those jobs? Who knows but we'll see if TPP gets implemented.

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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