Microsoft Folds Again: Xbox One Will Now Work Without Kinect Enabled

from the about-face dept

Microsoft may have ditched its numbers as naming convention scheme for its consoles, but the company has been doing more one-eighties than a mildly talented snowboarder as of late. You may recall that when the Xbox One was debuted, Microsoft firmly stated that the console would require an always-on internet connection, would carry heavy restrictions on used and traded games, and would require the included Kinect to be functioning. Since that firm stance, Microsoft rolled back the internet requirement, eased up on their used games policy, and have now completed the backing-down-trifecta by removing the Kinect requirement as well.

Microsoft already stated that the Kinect doesn't have to be powered on, but at that time, it was still required to be plugged into the Xbox One. This, of course, remains a little nerve-racking. The paranoid among us suggest that the Kinect never actually shuts off, and Microsoft could spy on us in our undies. Speaking with IGN, Xbox vice president Marc Whitten confirmed that the Xbox One will no longer require the Kinect to be plugged into the console. Yes, another Xbox One reversal.
On the one hand, yay, Microsoft is listening to their customers. On the other hand, whoever in the company thought these ideas were worth floating to the public in the first place deserves some significant time in the employment penalty box. Nothing about these endeavors was in the least bit customer-oriented and, when we're talking about any policy that restricts that lack of customer benefit is going to be a deal-breaker.

The end result is and should be a boon for Sony, who has gone out of their way to run something of a "Sure, we're Sony, but at least we're not Microsoft" campaign. Rolling these policies back may be the right thing to do, but it also serves to keep what Microsoft had originally wanted in the headlines, and that's going to turn customers towards competitors.



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  1.  
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    Ninja (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:23am

    Russian Reversal is sooo last century...

    In Corporate Redmond consoles play YOU!

     

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  2.  
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    Akari Mizunashi (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:33am

    "Nothing about these endeavors was in the least bit customer-oriented..."

    This is outright bullshit, and I'm truly disappointed someone at Techdirt didn't realize this. Granted, the Kinect issue concerned me (developers have told me the unit is never off), which would have prevented a purchase from me, but the other ideas *were* in customer favor.

    It's a shame TD has emphasized, grossly, "DRM" is always a bad thing. The console itself is DRM to the extreme (try playing a disk on a PC), so what *better* way than to grow the already-established DRM.

    For the first time ever, we'd have control over our digital files. To sell or trade would have been phenomenal in this day and age, especially when *most other companies* don't use DRM properly.

    Yes, I know, Microsoft screwed up so big with teaching people, the damage is beyond anything I've ever seen in a PR fiasco, but the message was there, and it was clear.

    "Authorized" retailer meant companies which can access the XBox Live account so you can't sell both the plastic disk and digital file, so yeah, a required online connection was necessary for that.

    For those who weren't ready for this, there *was* another option out there. Two, in fact, if one still considers the Wii U a viable alternative.

    Sorry, Tim, but you can stick your head in the sand all you want, but it's clear to me you, and the rest of your gaming fans ruined a great opportunity.

    So congratulations. When you share your games with friends, you must give up your copy to do it.

    Way to keep the true DRM (as Sony hoped you would) alive for another generation.

    I'll side with you on Kinect, but everything: you blew it.

     

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  3.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:54am

    Re:

    See, the issue I had with that used games thing was that it was intentionally designed, and the rumors at the time seemed to bear out, that all used games were going to cost the same as a full-price game.

    Protip: that's not really a used game - that's price gouging of a kind only ticket touts had the stones to do before.

    Added to that, the recent Gamestop fiasco (intentionally opening a game and selling it above the previous full-retail cost) and you had a horror story waiting to happen.

    And it would have cost MS nothing to be honest about this crap. I'm half-expecting that, sometime in the next two years, MS will turn on the "always-on" crap, and have games that require the Kinect always be plugged in.

     

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  4.  
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    S. T. Stone, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:01am

    Re:

    Show me a single DRM system that actually has both consumer rights and convenience/ease of use in mind, and Iíll agree with you that DRM doesnít always suck.

     

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  5.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:02am

    At least they got the message.

    When your competitor's entire platform is how much not like you they are, and is meet with a standing ovation from your target market, you need to listen.

     

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  6.  
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    James Burkhardt (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:05am

    I think that Microsoft never intended to do anything it promised in that original reveal. They hadn't talked to ANY major developers or Gamestop, the major retailer who would support their used games effort. Moreover, a half and half measure, supporting digital games through their new marketplace while allowing physical disks to react to market forces as always would provide them with an excellent way to educate people on the features.

    Instead, they are supposedly working overtime to rework the entire firmware because they apparently didn't use studies or focus groups before trying this crap?

    No, The entire goal was to push the shit position and then seem enlightened when the broke down.

     

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  7.  
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    Ninja (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:07am

    Re:

    Not sure if serious or joking.

    DRM is always a bad idea. Always. Some may be less intrusive though.

    For the first time ever, we'd have control over our digital files.

    If you can't do with it whatever you want you have no control over it. Microsof says what and where and ties you to a XBL account, something not everybody is willing to have. So how do I get a game in the digital format only without tying to a damned account? You see, GOG sends me a file that I can put in an usb stick and plug in my ears if I want. Or I can install in my desktop, notebook and any other conceivable device I want without them meddling between me and the ability to do so.

    "Authorized" retailer meant companies which can access the XBox Live account so you can't sell both the plastic disk and digital file, so yeah, a required online connection was necessary for that.

    Authorized retailer. Monopoly. Set up prices. The physical asset (the disc) has an inherent value to it. Some gamers like to have the disc in their gaming shelf (I like to have em when I really like) others couldn't care less and just want the files. The solution for this "dilemma" is to treat digital files as consumables and sell them for a reduced price. No resale possible and the possibility of a refund after X hours/days in case the game is not what was expected. I'd go further and say the way to go is to make a subscription and make the games free to play with the possibility of offering extra money for the developers of games you believe to be worth it. A Netflix of the consoles if you will.

    For those who weren't ready for this, there *was* another option out there. Two, in fact, if one still considers the Wii U a viable alternative.

    With that I agree. But it seems Microsoft realized too many would go without.

    Way to keep the true DRM (as Sony hoped you would) alive for another generation.


    No such a thing. It's either DRMed or not. Soft/Hard/True are but illusions.

     

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  8.  
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    Ninja (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:10am

    Re: Re:

    Indeed. I'd think twice before buying the X1. All those "features" can be introduced via software updates. This put the nail in the coffin of the next gen consoles for me. After Sony stripped the other os feature from the PS3 and did all sorts of fuck up against their gamers and M$ did similar stuff with 360 then this PR disaster? No, thanks. I'm done with consoles.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:10am

    Re: Re:

    Steam

     

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  10.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:47am

    Re:

    No, it's a matter of opinion and the reason MS have ended up in this position in the first place is because they have been attacking those who disagree as you did before the launch, rather than actually addressing those complaints.

    "For the first time ever, we'd have control over our digital files. To sell or trade would have been phenomenal in this day and age, especially when *most other companies* don't use DRM properly."

    Which can be achieved without the system they've set up that assumes people are pirates unless they check in with Microsoft every day.

    Instead of attacking people based on a fallacy, try addressing what they were ACTUALLY saying. It's not that DRM is always bad, it's that the system would be non-functional for people with zero or intermittent internet connections. Try sharing your games when your internet goes out (or MS's servers go out) for a week, and the console won't work at all while that system is in place. I can do that with my 360 no problem.

    Stop screaming at your strawmen, then maybe you can have a decent conversation. Until then, you're not answering any of the problems people were REALLY having, you're addressing a fiction.

     

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  11.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:49am

    What's sad about the whiole thing is that every complaint they've been forced to address and make a u-turn over was quite clearly communicated to Microsoft not only on their official sites but throughout the community well before they were officially announced. As with the Metro disaster, they had the opportunity to listen to customers and meet their needs. They opted to try and force customers to do what's best for Microsoft instead, and that's not going to work.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 4:59am

    Re: Re:

    The closest ones I can think of are Steam and, surprisingly, Origin.

     

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    Argonel (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:05am

    XBox 360-359

    With the number of reversals I'm stating to think that they went from the 360 to the One by announcing and then removing features. Once they hit 359 retractions they will be ready for launch.

     

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  14.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:07am

    Re:

    You must be a PC gamer.

    The sheer fact that you're defending DRM policies proves that.

    PC Master Race my ass! PC gamers just gave up and accepted this crap and then when consoles finally started to get the same DRM policies that the PC gamers got, console gamers got upset and PC gamers don't understand why.

    Seriously, the defense I hear for those DRM policies is "PCs have had them forever, just suck it up, it's not that bad."

    And, if not for Steam, how WOULD the PC gaming market look right now?

     

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  15.  
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    Spike (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:10am

    The only last thing they can Xbox 180 on is the price, a kinect-less version for $399, pricing parity with the PS4.

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:18am

    Re:

    It works. Not always, but mostly. See EA (well, except simcity fiasco, which were a refreshing expression of customer dissatisfaction)

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:22am

    Re: Re:

    What the fuck is the matter with you?
    "You must be a PC gamer"
    Why, do you really think pc gamers like drm? Tell that to EA..

    "PC Master Race my ass!"
    Ad hominem on a strawman.

     

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  18.  
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    DannyB (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 5:59am

    How did Microsoft convince the NSA to allow this?

    How did Microsoft convince the NSA to allow you to disconnect the camera on an always on internet connected device with a camera that most people put in a living room or bedroom?

     

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  19.  
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    The Real Michael, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:00am

    Re:

    It all boils down to corporate vs consumer control. If anything, the Xbox One in its original E3 incarnation would've transferred so much control away from the consumer over to the corporate. It would've allowed Microsoft to dictate policy across a mandatory internet connection, not to mention given them (and most definitely the NSA) the ability to monitor you in your home via Kinect. If anything, we had far more control over the stuff we purchased back in the days before internet connectivity, so for them to sell the notion of greater consumer control and convenience is an illusion. What could possibly be superior to purchasing software and being able to do whatever you want with it, including sell, trade or lend it? Had it not been for overwhelming consumer backlash, Microsoft would've made it so that you couldn't do any of those things without injecting themselves as middlemen. How is that a step in the right direction?

    This is also why I'm anti-digital market, because it's anti-consumer, a means of conceding control to a corporate entity. They can go into your hardware, just like Amazon and others have done, and remotely delete your files whenever they wish. They can also block you from their servers for any given reason. Of course they cannot do that with physical goods. If something should happen to your system/storage device, what then? You'd need to replace everything from scratch, whereas with earlier consoles at most you might lose saved game memory, i.e. Sega Saturn, TurboDuo, etc. What happens when in the future Microsoft shuts down their servers for the Xbox One? How would you get your stuff back? Pay for the same games yet again on their next console? How stupid is that?

     

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  20.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:13am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Why, do you really think pc gamers like drm?

    Because I hear people going "Oh, DRM isn't so bad, look at Steam, it's got DRM, it's good." and "PC games have had DRM forever now, just suck it up and deal with it."

    Ad hominem on a strawman.

    No, it's not. Maybe you've never heard of it, but PC gamers call themselves the "Master Race" when it comes to gaming.

    Seriously, just google search "PC Master Race" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

     

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  21.  
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    Skeptical Cynic (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:21am

    Choice, control, ownership

    This whole Xbox 180 debate comes down to 3 things.

    Choice: If I buy your product let me chose what I want to do and allow. Offer benefits to me to allow those things you want me to do. But let me choose.

    Control: When you allow me to chose what I want to do with what I buy from you and enable what I want you give me the control you did not by mandating stuff.

    Ownership: It all comes down to ownership. MS and the game companies want to allow you to buy what they are selling but they still think they are the owners. The reason choice and control were taken is because they in their f**ked up corporate profit minded minds can not get their heads around the fact that if I buy your product I OWN IT!!! So I should get to chose what I do with it and I should be able to control it!

    The associated companies involved in this debacle just need to understand as you offer more control, more choices you will increase your profits not the opposite. Those choices are called (head back to your MBA text books) "reasons to buy". The more reasons you give me to buy by offering the control I might want and the choices I might choose the more you will sell.

     

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  22.  
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    Rob, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:36am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "Why, do you really think pc gamers like drm? Tell that to EA.."

    The EA that sold a few million of SimCity, the poster child of DRM? That EA?

     

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  23.  
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    Rob, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:41am

    "On the other hand, whoever in the company thought these ideas were worth floating to the public in the first place deserves some significant time in the employment penalty box."

    So, Zynga?

     

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  24.  
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    Lurker Keith, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:45am

    Re:

    A friend of mine used similar talking points. I debunked them w/ the fact that these backtracks have done at least as much damage as the original announcements.

    If they undid everything shortly (& I mean DAYS) after E3, then I could see your point. But no, instead, they tripled down everytime someone brought it up, until the backlash got so bad they couldn't ignore it.

    If you plan all along not to do anything you announce, 1) you don't say you won't change your mind, 2) you don't put out "details" that don't explain anything (or conflict), & 3) you certainly don't wait months for the consumer hate to build before announcing the reversal. Microsoft did all of these, to their detriment.

    If they weren't going through w/ it from the get go, waiting as long as they did could ONLY hurt them.

    If the plan was to change course all along, you do that the first time a Halo fan says they're buying a Wii U.

     

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  25.  
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    Killer_Tofu (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:50am

    Too little too late

    The fact that they considered all of the bad ideas seriously means I won't touch it.

    I have long been a PC gamer but also liked a lot of features of the 360. I will be returning to the PC exclusively for games from "next gen" (next gen always sounds funny because the PC is always already there).

    I just don't trust the big companies and their consoles anymore. Through software updates they seem to think it is okay to make huge changes to the way things work. We can already see that they want to take things in a direction that is not good for the consumer. I will stick to PCs for the new stuff now. Thanks.

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:52am

    The NSA really wanted that Kinect enabled requirement.

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:54am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Because I hear people going "Oh, DRM isn't so bad, look at Steam, it's got DRM, it's good." and "PC games have had DRM forever now, just suck it up and deal with it.""

    Steam is indeed has DRM. I personally hate it. I hate more the fact that you don't own your games you buy on steam (or at least they like to pretend you don't)
    That aside, it's the least invasive and annoying DRM I ever saw.
    It doesn't mean it's good, it means the others are even crappier.


    "No, it's not. Maybe you've never heard of it, but PC gamers call themselves the "Master Race" when it comes to gaming."

    Oh, you watch memebase too? Pretty reliable news source.
    Newsflash, what you talk about is the loud minority of pc gamers. The rest of us just don't give a crap about what piece of iron the rest of the world is playing on.
    I'd like to point out, that this loud minority exists in both the xbox and ps community too, barking at each other.

    "Seriously, just google search "PC Master Race" and you'll see what I'm talking about."

    Let me introduce you to MEMEs. They do not necessarily contain any reasonable thoughts. AKA: joke.

     

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  28.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I don't hear them cheering at the success of SimCity. Do you?

     

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  29.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 6:58am

    Re:

    If they don't offer a proper SKU without a Kinect now that they've announced it's unnecessary, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK/EU trading standards get involved with an investigation at the very least. Especially if they start trumpeting about how many Kinects they've shipped.

     

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  30.  
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    Rob, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Talk is moot. People bought it, that's what matters.

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:09am

    Re: Re:

    While PC gamers made accommodations with DRM for their games, it should be recognized that consoles have always been about DRM, even before the term was coined. The console itself is a physical DRM device.

    In the 80s, you could loan your Atari/Intellivsion games by exchanging the cartridge. PC games on the other hand could be copied directly to a disc and both copies could be played.

    PC gamers also (even with Steam) have more control over their gaming experience. Mods and file tweaking go far beyond the options available through a console. For the most part, they also don't need to worry about backward compatibility through upgrade cycles.

    If DRM bothers you so much, there are options beyond Steam. Good Old Games has DRM-free games. There are also Humble Bundles from independent developers which don't have DRM. These are choices which aren't available in any form on consoles, by the way. You're always locked into a single marketplace on a console.

    That said, I prefer my console for the large screen experience. I like the focus of the device and its resulting quick launch of the game and its minimal interface. I like the portability of the games and system itself.

    DRM itself isn't an argument for PCs or consoles. They are both equally, if differently, encumbered with restrictions.

     

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  32.  
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    mrong (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:11am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    PC master race exists because it's in every way better than playing a game on a console, even with DRM. And yeah, steam is drm, but it's also added some value to the whole system, such as a centralized location for all patches and updates, as well as a really decent modding community and a good community overall.

    Two hours playing any team game on xbox live should invalidate any reason to actually use a console as the people that plays those games (I'm generalizing a bit) are bad at them and using a controller for FPS games is like using a weed wacker to shave your mustache.

    Enjoy your limited frame rates and 12 year old boys, as that's what xbox is pretty much all about. It's a horrible platform, and you should feel bad about yourself for even using it. Why limit your entertainment options in such a fashion? You're better than that bro-seph. PC Master race welcomes you.

     

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  33.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No thanks, I prefer my controllers that let me play fighting games, ease of access, used games, the ability to share my games with my friends, no need to be a freaking wizard to make a program work, no need to download additional drivers to make a game work and superior control for action-based games that aren't FPS.

     

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  34.  
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    Doug D, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:20am

    Just one more thing...

    I had four concerns with the XboxOne. Three have been addressed. (The network thing, the used games thing, and the Kinect thing.)

    They're now finally at the point where if I were given one as a gift, I would most likely open the box and plug it in rather than immediately ebaying it.

    If they adequately address my fourth concern -- backwards compatibility -- I'll most likely preorder the thing.

    (But, no danger of that, it would seem.)

     

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  35.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:27am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No. The point silverscarcat made was pc gamers somehow like drm, which is ridiculous.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:28am

    Kinect not plugged in, oh well at least the microphone will be always listening

     

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  37.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Aaaand here we are, console gamer vs pc gamer. Ridiculous.

    Btw mrong IS the bad example. Most PC gamers obviously prefer PC, but won't have any objection to you playing your prefered machine.

     

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  38.  
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    kitsune361, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:34am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Still can't sell/trade your used games. In that regard, last gen consoles had a leg up as physical media = game ownership.

    The games (and now software) are still all just licenses that are one ban hammer away from being rendered useless. The ToS is pretty strict on what you can do with gift copies and keys as well. Same w/ the ToS on the "market place" (aka the hat shop).

    However, most people overlook these things as Steam still delivers decent value for the price of software and they aren't usually very knee-jerk about the rules (unless you're doing something really egregious). And there's still offline mode for those games that don't require an internet connection.

    Just saying, nobody is perfect, but Steam is pretty good in comparison to XB-One's initial proposal.

     

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  39.  
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    silverscarcat (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Considering that people have put up a petition to have the DRM restored to the Xbox one and any complaints about the DRM policies have been met with "PC gamers have dealt with it forever, you'll just have to learn to deal with it"...

    Yeaaaaaahhhh....

     

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  40.  
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    John Fenderson (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:37am

    Re:

    This is outright bullshit


    I disagree. None of the controversial "features" benefited the customer.

    To sell or trade would have been phenomenal in this day


    The DRM Microsoft wants is not necessary to allow this.

    "Authorized" retailer


    "Authorized" retailer meant that Microsoft got to decide who could be involved in the sale of used game. No more would it be just a matter between you and your friend. It also meant that a third party always got a cut of the sale.

    ruined a great opportunity


    No, Microsoft ruined it, apparently out of pure spite. Again, none of the features that were complained about were necessary to allow the desirable features that Microsoft dropped.

    Also, Microsoft knew that these things, particularly the always-on requirement, were going to cause a furor -- the community had been saying so for a long time during development.

     

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  41.  
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    Sat, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:39am

    Re: Re:

    This is very precisely what they are now doing with Windows 8.1 after people complained about the start button.

     

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  42.  
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    Rob, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If it's disliked so much, then why did it sell? Things that are vehemently hated by the group tend to die pretty quickly.

     

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  43.  
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    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    citation please.

    Also, what the fuckin' point to sign a petition concerning someone OTHER's choice of platform? Do you really think these are the "normal" players?

     

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  44.  
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    PaulT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:49am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "The console itself is a physical DRM device."

    I keep hearing this argument recently, and I don't find it convincing. The reason why, say, PS2 games don't work on an XBox is not due to DRM. It's because the code literally can't run on the differing processors and GPUs. It's because parts of the games rely on the underlying OS which does not exist on the competing machine. It's because the disc/cartridge format is physically not compatible with the other console. The fact that the Intellivision II could play Atari 2600 games was a deliberately designed concession from a more open age, not something that happened naturally.

    I understand the sentiment, but it's not DRM. If it were DRM, the games would normally be able to be palyed but are blocked artificially by some hardware or software block. As it is, it's no more DRM than a Blu Ray not being playable on a laptop with only a DVD player or Windows not being able to play OSX (or PS3/360) games natively (or vice versa). You can argue that different hardware is a form of DRM, but then you're making the same argument as that a diesel engine is DRM because it won't take unleaded.

    I'd agree that it would be nice to use competing marketplaces and mods, but that's a choice people make going in. There's a lot of advantages to console gaming (which actually includes the relatively locked down/simplified structure) just as there are advantages to PC gaming. But, all those platforms have DRM of some form, it's just not in the form that's being claimed by some.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    icon
    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Yeah, it sold because people LOVE restricting DRM. Not because it was their favorite franchise.. /s

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    icon
    Watchit (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 7:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    PC master race scoffs at petty console squabbles.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    Alt0, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:01am

    The truth about "used" games (as I see it) is if you can't afford to buy the game retail,
    you should be concentrating on making money instead of playing games.
    (It is what I would choose to do if I could not afford something I wanted)
    I never sell used games, just re-visit them like old friends.
    I like that I am able to afford things I want, and I have no problem supporting the industry that provides the AA titles I enjoy.
    Undoubtedly there are a few other folks out there like me. Otherwise the only games would be on my phone, or facebook,
    and that's when I would stop gaming.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Rob, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Which means DRM isn't that far up on the list of hates.

    There's not a game franchise in existence that I would buy with SimCity DRM (or, for that matter, any PC DRM), no matter how favorite it is.

    My point isn't that the DRM is loved. My point is that it's not as hated as it's made out to be. If it's the "Worst.Thing.Ever" then what it's attached to doesn't matter.

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    " keep hearing this argument recently, and I don't find it convincing. The reason why, say, PS2 games don't work on an XBox is not due to DRM."

    *headdesk*

    Two examples for you:
    (1) Take that PS2 disk, put in a PC. Rip, burn a copy. Now play the copy in a PS2

    (2) Write some code on a PC using a cross compiler. Burn it to a PS2 disk. Now play it on a PS2.

    Consoles are bigass dongles. Heck, Sega cartridges wouldn't work without the "Sega" bitmap present, and they tried to use that as a bludgeon (copyright infringement) when an unauthorized company made cartridges.

    And your 2600 example? Look at the history of Activision. They got sued by Atari for breaking the DRM on Atari carts. Prior to that, you had to go through Atari to get a cart made.

    You're completely right that a PS2 not working on XBox is not DRM. That doesn't mean those things weren't DRMed to hell and back.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    icon
    mrong (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:15am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'm not really objecting to his use of xbox, I'm just pointing out the it can be so much better.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    LAst I remember I had a controller for my PC... and used games.

    Although I dont know why I'd go to gamestop and pay $30 for a used game when I can buy dishonored for 10 dollars new.

    Darksiders 2 and all DLC for 4.99? Ok.

    And download additional drivers? Is the last time you used a PC back in 1997?

    Ever play an action game on PC? Vindictus and others? Controls are fine, even without a controller.

     

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  52.  
    icon
    PaulT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Two examples for you:
    (1) Take that PS2 disk, put in a PC. Rip, burn a copy. Now play the copy in a PS2

    (2) Write some code on a PC using a cross compiler. Burn it to a PS2 disk. Now play it on a PS2."

    Erm... yeah? A ripped PS2 game works in a PS2 and code compiled for use on a PS2 works on a PS2. WTF does that have to do with anything I said?

    "And your 2600 example?"

    Wasn't my example, I was responding to someone else, but...

    "They got sued by Atari for breaking the DRM on Atari carts."

    ...and IBM attacked lots of companies for reverse engineering the PC BIOS that enabled them to make "IBM PC compatible" machines. So?

    "You're completely right that a PS2 not working on XBox is not DRM. That doesn't mean those things weren't DRMed to hell and back."

    I never said they weren't. I said that the physical, architectural and OS differences between consoles were not a form of DRM, which was the claim I was refuting.

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    The dude, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:48am

    Console fag vs PC fag

    Almost as funny to watch as politics

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    icon
    Viln (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 8:50am

    Re:

    What utter rot. All of the features the second-guess crowd are wailing about are able to be implemented WITHOUT the restrictive, demanding or often crippling aspects of DRM that are rightfully being removed. If Microsoft chooses not to implement them, it's either laziness, lack of foresight... or bitter, resentful attempts at punishing the playerbase.

    Why? Why do I need to always be online in order to play games I already own? Why can't I choose to leave the network and play MY games, being as how I (like any serious gamer) couldn't give a flying turd about "achievement" bubbles popping up? Why can't I play a game without being harassed about creating an online account so I can be blitzed with advertisements for DLC?
    Why can't I have digital files and hard copies and let them be treated differently for the purposes of piracy and sharing? Why can't I choose whether or not I want the convenience of digital ownership at the price of it transforming into nothing but a license rental?

    I'm amazed at how many people come off as industry shills, as though Microsoft couldn't give us what we want if they really wanted to.. as though we've killed their goose and they're now unable to provide customer-centric service.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 9:44am

    I know for sure I will not have a console. Microsoft's efforts at putting a spy in every home has made me extremely suspicious of all gaming consoles. If one can do it the rest can too. Nothing says they have to tell you about it. They can do like Obama and the NSA and wait for the fallout and hope it blows over. That doesn't remove the spy.

    What has happened is the same as the spying saga. I've lost the trust and will no longer consider consoles as a gaming platform. I can put a computer offline that never connects to the internet and play till my hearts' complete and there will be no phone home... ever.

    While some will say you can do the same thing with a console, I have lost trust in all this. Its not likely to come back very easily. It is how you say, damage is done; I'm aware of this.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    Chris Brand, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 9:45am

    Re: How did Microsoft convince the NSA to allow this?

    The reality is probably that Microsoft got an order from a secret court telling them to keep the camera on at all times, to send the resulting data directly to the NSA, and to send a press release saying that it *wasn't* going to be "always on".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    icon
    Skeptical Cynic (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 10:32am

    Re:

    And Sony has already been a part of the spying scheme. Look to the whole Sony Spyware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal

    So you can embrace the world that your computer AND console are going to spy on you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    icon
    Ninja (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I think the best way to describe consoles and pcs is Apple vs Android where Apple is the consoles. Consoles are a walled garden. At least it makes sense for me.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    icon
    Internet Zen Master (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:46am

    Damn it Microsoft

    Potential for spycam abuse of the Xbox One's Kinect aside (which in all honesty is kinda assuming the worst with [okay, circumstantial] evidence to back it up), the X1 Kinect increased the chances of motion sensor games actually extending beyond the fucking dance craze demographic. Now that the always-connected function for Kinect is no longer mandatory, there's less incentive for the industry to develop QUALITY kinetic-centric games, and not things like the unplayable pile of steaming shit Capcom made named Steel Battalion: Heavy Armor.

    Well, I guess as long as the Kinect is included as part of the Xbox One 'bundle', there will still be some incentive.

    Seriously though, why can't Microsoft stick to its fucking guns on this? Listening to your customers is good and all, but they shouldn't be bending over backwards to appease the most vocal critics on the Internet. You can't please everyone, so stop trying. [Though I'm not too upset about the always-online requirement getting removed. Sad that the sharing-with-friends feature had to go with it.]

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    BigKeithO, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:49am

    Re: Too little too late

    Agreed.

    After E3 I went out and bought a wireless controller for my PC and a 50' HDMI cable to run to my TV. I've been using Big Picture mode ever since and I'm loving it. PC visuals and framerate on a 55" 3D TV with the big 5.1 surround system is something that needs to be experienced to truly understand.

    I am seriously contemplating a wireless keyboard and mouse for Rome 2 now. I won't be buying one of the new consoles now, the next generation is already here and it is already hooked up to my TV.

    Master Race out.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:51am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    DRM is invisible, thus for the casual purchaser, it is a non factor until it suddenly causes problems.

    Then people get in arms for a while, and then forget. Then get up in arms again the next time DRM screws with them.

    Ever hear the term "out of sight, out of mind?" that's usually how DRM operates, so you don't think about it until you get screwed by it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    BigKeithO, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:51am

    Re:

    Used games go hand in hand with rental games however. You might not get the whole buying and selling used games but you wouldn't miss rentals? There are lots of games I'd never buy but I've put $6 down for a rental and still enjoyed it for a while.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  63.  
    identicon
    BigKeithO, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 11:53am

    Re: Damn it Microsoft

    Quality Kinect games?... Does not compute.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 12:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Two examples for you:
    (1) Take that PS2 disk, put in a PC. Rip, burn a copy. Now play the copy in a PS2

    (2) Write some code on a PC using a cross compiler. Burn it to a PS2 disk. Now play it on a PS2."

    Erm... yeah? A ripped PS2 game works in a PS2 and code compiled for use on a PS2 works on a PS2. WTF does that have to do with anything I said?


    Actually unless you have modified your console or have a signing key provided by sony, neither of those activities will work. That is the point of the DRM baked into the console.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    icon
    GunSheep (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 12:18pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I'll give you the counter point. I'm an ex-pc FPS gamer who moved to consoles for a fairly simple reason. All my friends use consoles for their gaming needs. And it's pretty simple why. When a new game comes out they stick the disk in the drive (and maybe install it...maybe not). Download any patches if needed...and play. No arcane drivers to download, no sacrificing goats to whatever video driver god you worship in hopes that a patch is available for you. It just works. Group chat works. Multiplayer matching works.

    This has gotten me off the PC upgrade treadmill. Yes, my graphics aren't even close to a 'standard' PC. But I don't care. Yes we could all go back to PC gaming...which is really come a long way from when I played COD 1 and 2 on the PC. The problem is who ends up having to support my friends when the latest PC game isn't playing nice with their video drivers....or voice chat doesn't work with whatever server we are on...etc...

    Frankly, I want to play video games. Not screw around trying to figure out why they don't work with my (or my friends) combination of hardware/software. I understand that this has gotten 'better' but it's not even close to 'stick the disk in and play'

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  66.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 12:19pm

    Re: Damn it Microsoft

    Pretty soon the only difference between Xbox and PS4 from a programming standpoint will be the logo on the box. There is a possibility of xbox exclusives to make meaningful use of Kinect. Cross platform titles will almost certainly ignore it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  67.  
    identicon
    Rekrul, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 1:48pm

    Re: Re:

    PC gamers just gave up and accepted this crap and then when consoles finally started to get the same DRM policies that the PC gamers got, console gamers got upset and PC gamers don't understand why.

    Other than Starforce, or DRM that has the potential to mess up your system, I don't mind if a game has DRM that prevents you from copying the disc and which requires you to insert the disc to play the game.

    However I draw the line at games that require online activation. I don't own any Steam games and I passed on games I previously wanted once I learned that they needed online activation to play.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    icon
    JMT (profile), Aug 14th, 2013 @ 1:52pm

    Re: Damn it Microsoft

    "...the X1 Kinect increased the chances of motion sensor games actually extending beyond the fucking dance craze demographic."

    This argument regularly gets trotted out, but I've yet to hear and possible useful features motion sensing can offer me. Where's all the speculation on the amazing new uses for this product that was simply never that appealing to many people? Personally I think the people bleating about the people bleating about Kinect have done a terrible job convincing anyone of the possible benefits.

    "Seriously though, why can't Microsoft stick to its fucking guns on this? Listening to your customers is good and all, but they shouldn't be bending over backwards to appease the most vocal critics on the Internet. You can't please everyone, so stop trying."

    Perhaps it's not the "most vocal critics" they're listening to, but the less vocal people like myself who simply decided I would not buy this console if it came to the 'features' announced at launch? I think they realised they faced the very real possibility of loosing too many customers.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    identicon
    Rekrul, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 1:55pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No thanks, I prefer my controllers that let me play fighting games

    Not only are there pretty much exact copies of all the console controllers for computers, there are adapters that will let you plug in virtually any controller from an Atari joystick to a PS3 controller, into a USB port.

    You can even get a USB receiver and use a wireless Xbox 260 controller with your computer.

    It's with most consoles that the controls are limited. What third party controllers exist for the PS3 or the Xbox 360? And no, I don't mean third-party clones of the standard controllers, I mean different types of controllers (like joysticks), different styles, etc.

    superior control for action-based games that aren't FPS.

    And crappy control for any games that are FPS. There's no comparison between aiming with a mouse and aiming with a thumbstick.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 2:45pm

    Re:

    "For those who weren't ready for this, there *was* another option out there. Two, in fact, if one still considers the Wii U a viable alternative."

    Quick marketing tip... saying 'If you don't like our restrictions than buy something else' is not a good sales technique.

    Then again, the quote I recall from microsoft wasn't much better...

    "If you don't have a constant internet connection we have a product for that! Its called the xbox360.".

    Because nothing says 'you are a valued customer' than saying 'here, take our outdated and soon to be unsupported piece of crap'

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 2:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Still can't sell/trade your used games. In that regard, last gen consoles had a leg up as physical media = game ownership."

    Last gen consoles don't hold drastic sales on a regular basis, bringing select titles down in price sometimes 90%. I'm willing to bet current gen consoles won't either.

    It's very rare I've paid full price for a game on steam. Usually because I don't have the money to. Once the console manufacturers have locked down their system, do you REALLY think the cost of games will go down?

    I'll be amazed if they don't start to go up, with everything from piracy to rising development costs thrown about as scapegoats for greedy pocket lining.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:06pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    The start button.

    The start button.

    Don't touch... the start button.

    Now I'll be right back.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:09pm

    Re: Re:

    At least steam sales provide an opportunity to offset the loss in value caused by less freedom with the purchase.

    I'm looking at digital distribution games on the PS3 marketplace that are still in the 60's, that are digital distribution only, and shaking my head with a sigh.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  74.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 14th, 2013 @ 3:12pm

    Re: Re:

    " If Microsoft chooses not to implement them, it's either laziness, lack of foresight... or bitter, resentful attempts at punishing the playerbase. "

    My money rests on the last one. The quotes I've heard from microsoft representatives have usually come across as 'Well we were GOING to end world hunger and give everyone a puppy, but you don't like the unneccessarily crippling 'features' we've tacked on along side it so you get none of it.'

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  75.  
    icon
    Anonymous Howard (profile), Aug 15th, 2013 @ 12:20am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    My reply was to silverscarcat's ridiculous assumption that pc gamers like DRM.

    People apparently not fed up with it enough to boycott drmed games, but that's far from liking it. And yes, a few publishers are notoriously ignoring it's fan base, and listens only to their wallet.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  76.  
    icon
    PaulT (profile), Aug 15th, 2013 @ 1:10am

    Re: Re:

    The best thing about that is that a lot of people who were complaining were *already* Xbox 360 owners, some of whom had chosen the 360 as their sole platform last gen. They were literally telling their existing customers not to buy their new product, and that their future business was not welcome. Incredible.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  77.  
    icon
    Corwin (profile), Aug 15th, 2013 @ 4:06am

    How to shut the Kinect down

    Well it will happen that people will fuck in front of it.

    Some of those people will be minors, thus video capture from that will be child porn.

    Therefore, we can accuse Microsoft of producing the biggest collection of child porn EVAR, getting the feds to bust the service down.

    Problem fucking solved.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  78.  
    identicon
    FFox, Aug 15th, 2013 @ 2:37pm

    Re: Re:

    Steam?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  79.  
    identicon
    FFox, Aug 15th, 2013 @ 2:56pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I actually quit buying Blizzard/Activision products after Diablo 3. I canceled my WoW account as well.

    I have decided that I will never buy a game that requires an online connection in anyway for single player. I also boycott products they sell. So far I have stuck to it, and I find myself just as entertained w/o them.

    People tolerate DRM for the games they love. However, there comes a point at which it becomes to much for them to even enjoy the game. There will always be the lemmings who will sell their soul for their favorite game. I think pointing out the SIMs highlights that.

    The sooner people start taking something like my approach, the sooner we can show these companies a clear path to the extinction their ideals are pushing for. They will have to change for the better or die.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  80.  
    icon
    RadialSkid (profile), Aug 15th, 2013 @ 6:29pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Why does everyone rave so much about Steam? It's still just an annoying program you have to install from disk before you can play a boxed game, it takes up about 20GB minimum of hard drive space, constantly eats bandwidth with huge updates that seem to make no difference, and you still don't own the games on it.

    Just because they license you games for about 80% below retail, it's somehow NOT annoying DRM anymore?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  81.  
    identicon
    hacker, Aug 17th, 2013 @ 2:05am

    hacker

    any onewith euity account navy credit union i do transfer no upfront fee 50 50 and plantinum card top up emai l me here hamzaben.d@hackermail dot com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  82.  
    identicon
    hacker, Aug 17th, 2013 @ 2:05am

    hacker

    any onewith euity account navy credit union i do transfer no upfront fee 50 50 and plantinum card top up emai l me here hamzaben.d@hackermail dot com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  83.  
    identicon
    goodhacker, Aug 17th, 2013 @ 2:06am

    hacker

    hi am from united STATE OF AMERICA FLORIDA PANAMA I WAS HERE LOOKING FOR GOOD HACKER TO HELP ME TO GET SIP ACCOUNT I MAKE SPAM WITH CALL I NEED SIP ACCOUNT SOME TOLD ME ABOUT HACKER FROM EGYPT?
    I HAVE WINE MORE THAN 40THOUSAND$ BUT I CALL THE HACKER AND EMAIL HIM MORE TIME HE IS NOT USING THAT NUMBER AGIAN BUT HIS EMAIL WORK ANY ONE HERE WHO HAS CONTACT THAT HACKER HERE USED GIVE ME HIS NUMBER AGAIN, I NEED SIP ACCOUNT AGAIN THIS THE HACKER EMAIL ANY ONE WHO CONTACT HIM AND HE REPLY SHOULD LET ME HAVE HIS NUMBER AGAIN his email is hamzaben.d@hackermail dot com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  84.  
    icon
    NaBUru38 (profile), Aug 19th, 2013 @ 2:58pm

    Please call the console "Xbox 180".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  85.  
    identicon
    Scott, Aug 19th, 2013 @ 9:51pm

    Drm

    I'm a console owner and I think the way Microsoft planned at first was great.i bet if they would have left it alone and once people seen how great it would have been they would have destroyed Sony.the fact is people are afraid of change,well Sony fans are always against anything that Sony didnt do .Sony fanboys are claiming Microsoft copied Sony with the Xbox well I guess Sony coppied Nintendo and nintendo coppied atari.
    people was doing and saying the same thing about music.i was one of them.i had almost 2000 CDs and said I never go digital,now today I can't live without my iPods and I sold most of my CDs.the same with movies.im a big movie collector.i have about 3000 DVDs and blueray disc.and I said the same thing.but now I discovered vudu and I love it.digital is the future and Sony just stopped progress.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  86.  
    identicon
    Scott, Aug 19th, 2013 @ 9:53pm

    Drm

    I'm a console owner and I think the way Microsoft planned at first was great.i bet if they would have left it alone and once people seen how great it would have been they would have destroyed Sony.the fact is people are afraid of change,well Sony fans are always against anything that Sony didnt do .Sony fanboys are claiming Microsoft copied Sony with the Xbox well I guess Sony coppied Nintendo and nintendo coppied atari.
    people was doing and saying the same thing about music.i was one of them.i had almost 2000 CDs and said I never go digital,now today I can't live without my iPods and I sold most of my CDs.the same with movies.im a big movie collector.i have about 3000 DVDs and blueray disc.and I said the same thing.but now I discovered vudu and I love it.digital is the future and Sony just stopped progress.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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