While I do find some erotica disturbing, I feel that it is protected speech. I think Smashwords is on the right track.

Is there some legal recourse when companies as large as Visa force their views on others? Perhaps a lawyer may want to chime in on this one.

Can someone please explain how this is any business of the credit card companies and banks? Have they become the new moral guardians of America? Since when, and since when are they qualified, not to mention authorized to censor our culture? and if this goes down, where will it stop?

Talking about slippery slopes! How long before Techdirt is censored too and oput on trial for, let’s say, “corrupting the youth”?

The hemlock’s brewing in India, should be ready by December.

On that note, how do you all feel about the use of webcams to oversee voting in the recent Russian election? It’s an interesting solution to some of the perceived electoral fraud problems, but has obvious implications if used in the context of private voting.

Also, while Putin was leading by such large margins that his win isn’t really disputable, there are indications that some fraud still took place (the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe reported that roughly one third of polls they monitored encountered “ballot stuffing and other irregularities”. Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/05/world/europe/russia-election/index.html?hpt=hp_t1).

Use bitcoins?

I don’t work with PayPal. The problem is when an online vendor whom accepts payment through an alternate method is forced to block access to all users to continue using PayPal for the site. Amazon has already purged a number of books from its site.

Also, the existence of PayPal’s patent portfolio – along with parent company eBay’s portfolio – limits competition in the realm of e-commerce payment handling.

“Also, while Putin was leading by such large margins that his win isn’t really disputable”

IDK if he is proven to have been cheating, even if he would have won without cheating, he should still not be allowed to win. “Yeah, I committed fraud but I would have won without it,” is not really a great argument.

Ahem. I reject your character assassination regarding us “forcing our views” on others. These are not “our” views, but the views of our society, who have determined that rape, incest, beastiality and underage sex are ILLEGAL. We are simply making sure that we are not part of promoting illegal activities. This is our right, and our duty to the society of which we are part.

Sincerely,

Visa

Ahem. I reject your character assassination regarding us “forcing our views” on others. These are not “our” views, but the views of our society, who have determined that rape, incest, beastiality and underage sex are ILLEGAL. We are simply making sure that we are not part of promoting illegal activities. This is our right, and our duty to the society of which we are part.

Sincerely,

Visa

Here I go!

There’s rarely a specific law one way or the other, as far as I know Accepted, however? Well, so far as I’m concerned, what two or more consenting adults do in private is nobody’s business but theirs, but I’m probably a minority there.

This story makes me want to buy a Henry Miller novel online.

Yes, Smashwords has the right to publish their legal rape and child abuse erotica if that is their desire.

Paypal has the equal right to NOT process for people who are selling material they are not comfortable with.

Smashwords can keep their content, but they cannot force Paypal to process for them.

End of story. it’s that simple.

lolcoins are lol

“underage sexual content”

Well there goes Romeo and Juliet… My high school english teacher should be fired for distributing such intolerable smut.

One of my writer aquaintances has taken all her books down from smashwords after they censored three of her transgressive non-erotica books that deal with issues like these. So no it’s not just erotica.

http://zoewhitten.com/2012/03/03/bye-smashwords/

As I understand it, the process of choosing who can run is an even bigger problem than any recent vote fraud in Russia. In the past, as well as in the most recent election, numerous potential candidates were denied a place on the ballot.

I’m not defending the practice of vote fraud, by the way; if you are already winning by such wide margins, rigging the election is pointless, and a sign of a thoughtless and wasteful administration.

WTF? Are you on crack?

What happened with Godaddy was pure an simple intimidation, right from the Stalinist handbook. It wasn’t anything else other than direct intimidation to force a company to change a political stand. It showed a total lack of respect for their rights to express the opinion.

For Smashwords, the law is simple – if Paypal applies restrictions of content evenly for all websites, and does not specifically discriminate against them, there is little that they can do. Paypal can say “either the content goes or we go”, and be entirely within their rights.

You understand that Paypal also does not process for completely legal adult porn material. They did for a while, and then got entirely out of that end of the processing business. In a similar manner, American Express also does not process for adult material. With Paypal accepting American Express, they are very likely also tied by American Express’s rules regarding this sort of content.

It’s not black and white, just sometimes it’s pretty freaking easy to see the reasons why. If you ever had a business, if you ever accepted credit cards, if you ever had a merchant account, then you know all that goes into it. It’s straight forward and simple, and the card companies, the clearing houses, the IPSP style third party sub-account processors… they all face the same issues regarding what is being sold. It’s the real world, amazing as it seems!

No doubt this all started when someone, say a higher up at a credit card company, read something posted from, say, the Smashwords site, something purchased by, say an adolescent child of said higher up, and was so turned off by it that, instead of punishing the child who made the purchase, decided he/she needed to punish anyone associated with the site and moved his/her company (and their associates, all aligned under whatever all those credit card CEOs align themselves with, same private golf club/church/cult) to put pressure on Paypal to ‘make it so.’

Actions like this are not based on ‘money’ but on emotion, someone’s emotional response to the content provided. This is where ALL censorship comes from. The risk assessment of porn is not the issue – porn is big business and has been for decades. It isn’t going anywhere. Someone was shocked pornographic/erotic material could be found on a ‘mainstream’ site and the morality gang found a cause.

Notice how this is happening an awful lot lately, across all sorts of varied social groups: the attack on Planned Parenthood via a now former higher up at Susan Komen, the outrageous attacks from the right on the inclusion of gays into marriage laws, the semi-organized actions of the religious Right to counter the language and action of scientists and even atheists, their calls of discrimination now that they are being challenged in the rule-making industry, Limbaugh calling people names, it speaks of a larger desperation out there, a need for control that, yes, evokes Atwood, but also smells of total failure. A great beast is on its side, heaving its last.

What happened with Godaddy was pure an simple intimidation, right from the Stalinist handbook. It wasn’t anything else other than direct intimidation to force a company to change a political stand. It showed a total lack of respect for their rights to express the opinion.

LOL.

Thank the one true God that we have patents to stop anyone that doesn’t want to do business with Paypal from coming up with their own solution to online payment processing! Otherwise any old heathen could just, you know, not do business with them and thus not be beholden to their morality.

Is there any link with the government?
Because if this has any at all and that can be shown first amendments would apply else I don’t believe what they are doing anything illegal, but I’m not sure about the law, I’m not familiar with all the federal and states laws governing financial institutions and other related laws so at first glance, this seems like individual private entities colluding to displace somebody else from the market, which could be an antitrust issue other than that I can’t see anything that could possibly help in this case.

With that said, I believe a better solution is for the market to create new options so when this type of things happen people can just move on and let the colluding people behind, and I want to thank Techdirt for being the beacon of light to put a spot on those issues showing the need for people to do something about it on their own, I shudder to think what government intervention legally or legislatively would be like.

One potential hitch is patents, IP law is becoming a problem for free market and business.

Well no more writing about slavery in America

This sucks that such great literature and history books will have to go. On the bright side, we’ll finally be rid of Twilight.

Can they sue Paypal over this ?
Are we not protected by Laws on Freedom of the Press or Arts ?

Sure you can, but what can you – successfully at that – sue them for? The U.S. Constitution guarantees that the government won’t necessarily censor one’s right to free speech and all, but does it impose the same standard on, say, a private citizen towards another private citizen?

Can someone please explain how this is any business of the credit card companies and banks? Have they become the new moral guardians of America? Since when, and since when are they qualified, not to mention authorized to censor our culture? and if this goes down, where will it stop?

We should be considering the free speech and freedom of expression issue: Is the depiction of vile and reprehensible things in written words, moreover the fictionalized depiction of such things, something that one party should be allowed to force another party to “censor”?

Awesome, so now banks and credit card companies are trying to censor speech. I would really like to know the names of these banks and credit card companies. They have no right to censor people.

Believe it or not, folks, but you too have that same right to censor anyone who uses your stuff, just as PayPal can only censor those who use THEIR stuff. Goodness, we censor what web sites our kids can visit using the Internet WE’RE paying for, we censor potential customers who swear at us within OUR store’s premises, we censor what our friends can do when invited into OUR homes, etc.

It may feel like PayPal’s censoring one’s ability to buy or read whatever erotica they want. Go ahead and try buying or reading one from, say, an offline bookstore or another online store and see if PayPal can stop you from doing that still.

It does suck when someone else is in a stronger position than you, and you can’t seemingly have your way with them. While it does feel good to express moral outrage against somebody you don’t agree with, are you sure you want someone to censor YOUR ability to censor anybody you find disagreeable?

The door swings both ways. Probably whether something is good or not depends which side one happens to be on.

If anything, though, PayPal ought to have at least released a statement explaining why, albeit they’ll still get flagged by many people for it anyway. Heh.

Personally, I think that PayPal is not telling the truth about it being forced by the credit card companies.

“what modern people might consider incest”

Might consider?

See: Adam and Eve
See: Noah and family post flood.

I only signed on to Paypal because Smashwords gave me no choice. It was the only way to get paid unless I wait until my account reaches $75. Amazon will direct deposit to my bank account. Smashwords could do this and be free of Paypal.

sigh, such middle ages are we living in.

Instead of progressing, we’ve begun moving backwards.

In fiction, Bestiality could be anything which simply couldn’t happen in real life.
Let’s take an example of the old Beauty and the Beast series on TV (The 80’s one with Vincent, the lion guy) now He and his Lady friend, Catherine, never had sex in the series, however if they did, would it be bestiality?

There could be themes where a woman is in love with a centaur, and have an affair… or it could be a dragon or something.

Should this be banned, in case, you know, people start raping dragons?

This smells. It was Paypal who years ago decided not to allow the use of their service for adult products. I don’t know if/when that changed, but it came with a lame excuse about fraud to justify a blanket prohibition on the use of their service to pay for legal goods.

At the time they were just as hardball about it while blaming someone else.

There’s already been one court case confirming that written works of fiction depicting otherwise illegal sex is not illegal.

Do like Microsoft, you buy points, they are charged as points to credit card. How those points are spent is nothing to do with any cc company. What’s offensive about points?

Has PayPal produced a copy of the so-called communication from a bank, credit card processer or credit union stating that PayPal can’t continue to do business with them if PayPal deals in “dirty” books? I think PayPal is flat out lying about any restriction on purchases of anything, anywhere. If you can use a credit card to pay a hooker, I suspect you can use a credit card to pay for anything… as long as you don’t use PayPal. Ditch PayPal – they are the problem.

Does PayPal read the material that is purchased? Think about it. How could they? If they have the time to inspect all purchases to see if they approve of the content, they need to get a life and spend it providing better service. Any transaction I have had them insert themselves into has been a hassle but the credit card always accepted the charge and never questioned or chastised me about what was purchased. Credit card companies want the money. Period. PayPal is making this up.

And pretty much every book Virginia Andrews ever wrote – bet many millions of those were purchased with credit cards!
I’ve read some truly dreadful titles – some by Smashwords and some not – and while I don’t think some of the content is appropriate or tasteful, I also don’t see how it us the responsibility of credit card companies to ‘protect’ us from it. If it’s so bad then just open it up to public scrutiny and legislate. Next time I try to pay for fast food with a credit card I don’t want it to be rejected because Visa/Amex/MasterCard have decided my health needs protecting!

The essence of this debate is that PayPal is a public utility, a financial company merely – as are the banks and credit card companies. They have no mandate to assume the role of Oliver Cromwell and enter the arena of public taste. (They should remember, Cromwell’s head ended up on a stake.)

Moreover, PayPal is a world-wide utility. The definition of offensiveness varies from culture to culture. If PayPal’s owners operated from Islamabad, would web site owners – whipped to obedience by the culture of Islam – have to visit Mecca before they qualified for a merchant account?

Is there anything other than Paypal’s utterly untrustworthy word that Visa/MC/Disc have anything at all to do with this? A memo? A public statement? Anything? Has anyone in the press asked them for one? Because if it’s the policy of the largest payment processors in the world to censor these things, why is it only being applied to small indie publishers? And not, say, the porn industry.

Sounds like Paypal blowing smoke after being caught in *another* PR scandal.

That’s how no boundaries press are doing it.

First of all – it’s only “Censorship” if imposed by the government. In this case it is a private company choosing not to take part in selling what some people consider objectionable. That’s called freedom. Smashwords has the freedom to tell PayPal to stuff it and go work with a different credit card merchant service company. If PayPal is willing to lose a HUGE customer by taking this stand, that’s their privilege/problem/business.

Come on people–that’s how freedom works. Please stop complaining about it or you’ll encourage the government to step in and say Everybody has to do business with Everybody whether they like or not. That is NOT freedom.

Furthermore, I don’t remember any of my credit cards ever asking me about content of a particular book bought with said credit cards.

Dump Paypal!

Everyone saying paypal is censoring is making themselves look like an idiot. Paypal is a private company. They CANNOT censor. Only the government can. Paypal is acting within their rights as a private comapny and you have a right not to use them. But to keep claiming that they are censoring is incorrect and making you look foolish.

What gives them the right? Are you serious? They are PRIVATE companies. They have every right. And what’s your right? Not to use them. And they are not censoring people. Private companies cannot censor – only the government can. Your post is completely foolish and without merit.

The heck with history, mythology and the Bible … with today’s fast and loose writing styles, just about any book can fall within these so-called “categories” … including a number of Christian fiction and nonfiction, and self-help or survivor stories.

People can read anything they please into a work of literature. For instance, the ’50s cartoon Mighty Mouse was taken off the air because someone decided the magic dust represented cocaine. Are you kidding me? I didn’t even know what cocaine was at that age. It was a freakin’ cartoon show!

But the same holds true for literature … hunt for “evil” and you will surely find it. The question is, why are financial institutions trying to control our rights? And why isn’t this affecting places like Amazon or Barnes & Noble, who also utilize credit cards and banks … why is it just the independent publishers and Indie authors?

Since we aren’t hearing that the major retailers are facing this same ordeal, could this just be a move on PayPal’s part alone?

I’m with you Sandy – I’d like to see this “so-called” evidence that it’s the credit card company and banks making this call. EVERY porn site on the planet seems to be paid for with these same credit cards. Have they seen some of the stuff on those hardcore sites??? Those same booksellers are still taking credit cards. And if the credit card companies were so worried about content, why are they still acceptable methods of payment on those same bookseller sites?

I find it particularly ironic – if it’s true – that the same companies that “rape” consumers every month and “raped” the American public for billions of dollars to bail their asses out are worried about what adults are reading. Perhaps that is why the entire economy went to hell in a hand basket. Maybe they should have been more concerned about inflated mortgages and bad credit risks and paying themselves huge bonuses. Talk about obscene!

It’s simple

Payment service providers and card companies wants their name and logo to be shown on the e-commerce sites and on all the receipts in order to market their services but they don’t want to be associated with all the things their customers uses their services for. 😉

Papal tested the same in Germany but was dumped:
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Lassen-uns-nicht-erpressen-Rossmann-schmeisst-Paypal-raus-1340041.html

Heise is editing a mayor Computer journal.

so you support child rape, abuse, beastiallity , your cool with it?? good to know what side your on

and you sound like a pedophile, mad that American laws follow you to the philipines??

My book is called ‘Battered Butterflies’ and there is nothing wrong with it. It is about a girl who is kidnapped and held in uunderground caverns. it is a rape themed book but quite frankly things like this happens every day. They are covering up reality that hides in these book that authors write about and it isnt right.