DailyDirt: Leaving A Good Tip...

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Tipping is an acceptable custom in many restaurants across America, but the tradition isn't looked upon favorably in other parts of the world -- or even across the entire service sector in the US. Sure, there are arguments for it and against it -- and minor debates are held every day over how much of a tip to leave. Lately, there's been some shift towards eliminating tipping -- for a variety of reasons from restaurants trying to manage increasing minimum wages to general appeals to fairness. After you've finished checking out those links, take a look at our Daily Deals for cool gadgets and other awesome stuff.

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    Anonymous Coward, 13 Nov 2015 @ 5:38pm

    Let's not forget that the American restaurant custom of tipping was originally outright bribery: giving money in return for preferential treatment. The big problem is that whenever this kind of off-the-books donation becomes pervasive, people start demanding bribes --er, "tips"-- just for doing their normal jobs.

    In many 3rd world countries, government workers --even police-- routinely expect tips, and woe to the traveler who fails to understand this widespread custom.

    I hate the idea of tipping waiters here in the US, but often offer money to people who never expect it -- just to see their response. So far, I've never once had a white person accept one of these "stealth" tips, but American Negroes, Nigerians, Mexicans, and (Asian) Indians rarely seem to have a problem with it, in my experience.

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    Inwoods (profile), 13 Nov 2015 @ 6:12pm

    Wouldn't it be TEPS anyway? "To ensure prompt service?" Who the hell wants to insure their service?

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    • identicon
      Pixelation, 13 Nov 2015 @ 8:47pm

      Re:

      "Wouldn't it be TEPS anyway? "To ensure prompt service?" Who the hell wants to insure their service?"

      Me. I want insurance against bad service.

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  • identicon
    Neymar Sport, 13 Nov 2015 @ 7:37pm

    Tip is not donation or return money

    As the title, when you tip somebody for their good works, please respect them as a real workers, they are not beggers.

    The return money is not the tip, the change is not the tip, the tip is only when you give them as the award

    In Asian, we don't have tip culture (the truth)

    From Vietnam

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    • identicon
      Socrates, 14 Nov 2015 @ 6:39pm

      Offensive

      In Japan tipping is offensive. It would indicate that they don't have honor, and only did a good job because you greased them with money.

      It would be like paying 10% of a prostitutes fee to your girlfriend/wife as a "bonus".

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  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 13 Nov 2015 @ 7:47pm

    Traditionaly here...

    ... a tip is only given for service above and beyond. I personally find the expectation of a tip to be bad manners by the staff. Any business that has a general tip jar get nothing from me, ever.

    I was taught to only tip if the service was personal, excellent and above the expectation (by way of prices) of the establishment in question.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 13 Nov 2015 @ 7:49pm

      Re: Traditionaly here...

      I should also note that putting a gratuity charge on a bill gets it questioned immediately as a gratuity is a freely given gift, not a part of the expected payment.

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      ottermaton (profile), 14 Nov 2015 @ 1:14am

      Re: Traditionaly here...

      I was taught to only tip if the service was personal, excellent and above the expectation (by way of prices) of the establishment in question.

      Well, I can't really fault you personally for what you were taught, but the people who gave you that lesson(s) were short-sighted.

      I understand the general objection to tipping and the desire to resist doing so. But here's the thing: the people who are your servers are making *far* below minimum wage. In my state, for example, the "normal" minimum wage is $7.25/hr (I guess that's a Federal thing, actually) but the minimum wage for a server is only $2.83/hr, less than half.

      On top of that, servers are required to pay taxes on the tips they make, which comes out of that $2.83/hr. This creates a situation where at the end of a pay period a server's payroll check is very often $0. Let me show you how that works, using just a single day as an example.

      A server works a 5 hour shift, say from 5pm - 10pm. The hourly pay for that time worked comes out to be $2.83 * 5 = $14.15. Not a whole lot. At the end of the evening the server is required to report the amount of tips made. Let's say it was $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" (this is includes ALL of the deductions you're used to seeing on a normal payroll check) of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made. Which comes out of the payroll of $14.15. Obv, that's a negative number. The server's paycheck comes out to be $0.

      This situation is quite normal.

      So, when you decline to leave a tip for a server you are *quite literally* affecting that person's income. Sure, it's easy to say, "Well, they should get a better job." and to some degree that's correct. But they went into this job with the clear expectation and precedent that they would be making tips.

      If tipping really rankles you, my suggestion is to vote with your dollar. And by that I do NOT mean declining to tip your server -- that affects just a single person who is just trying to get by just like the rest of us.

      Vote with your dollar by not patronizing places where tipping is expected _and_ relied on by the servers. When you get right down to it, it's the fault of the establishment that refuses to pay their workers a livable wage, not the fault of the person in that situation.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2015 @ 3:20am

        Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

        "If tipping really rankles you, my suggestion is to vote with your dollar. And by that I do NOT mean declining to tip your server .. Vote with your dollar by not patronizing places where tipping is expected"

        You have it completely backwards. People who are Ideologically opposed to the practice of (forced) tipping in restaurants and would like to see it relaxed should do the opposite: visit these restaurants as MUCH as possible (and buy the highest-profit items like alcoholic beverages) and NEVER leave a tip. If enough people did this, this would force the restaurants (who are now flush with cash) to either pay their employees more or have them all quit and then be forced to close down a highly profitable business. Which one of these two choices do you think the owners will make? Or do you really think that people who wait tables for a living will continue working for a fraction of minimum wage if the owners refuse to raise wages to make up for lost tips?

        Yes, it's shock therapy, but the alternative strategy (voting with your feet, as in going to serve-yourself buffets instead) won't change anything in the tipping-required restaurants, except that there might be fewer of them.

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          ottermaton (profile), 15 Nov 2015 @ 1:12pm

          Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

          I've been out of town for a few days, so this might go unnoticed (and most likely unheeded), but here goes anyway ...

          You have it completely backwards. People who are Ideologically opposed to the practice of (forced) tipping in restaurants and would like to see it relaxed should do the opposite: visit these restaurants as MUCH as possible

          No, it's you who have it utterly and unbelievably backwards. Apparently you have zero clue what the owners of these restaurants, who are now making piles of cash, will say to their servers when they demand a pay raise: "Don't like it? Quit." It will be and is and always has been absurdly easy for restaurant owners to replace servers. It so easy all they have to do is hang a sign on the door and they will get flooded with applications. FLOODED.

          What your non-"solution" will do is reward and encourage these owners for being too cheap/greedy to pay their servers a livable wage. In your scenario, they're making money hand over fist -- why in the world would they do anything to change/disrupt that?

          My proposal, on the other hand, will cause them to take action. That action may or may not be paying their servers more, but they will do something as they watch their profits die out and the profits of other restaurants rise, as opposed to your plan which will reinforce them doing things exactly the way they are.

          It's painfully clear by what you said above that you have no experience in this industry. It's a shame to don't have any understanding of basic economics either.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 15 Nov 2015 @ 2:03pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly [sic] here...

            Where you are both wrong is in your idea that restaurants make "piles of cash".

            I was a chef for nearly 10 years, but I had to get out because restaurants don't make "piles of cash", most barely scrape by As a result they are one of the most oppressive places to work. Your boss is always looking at you, because in that moment they are losing money having to pay you - you're being there is taking food from their children mouths - but without you they have no business, so they just resent you and treat you like shit.

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              ottermaton (profile), 15 Nov 2015 @ 2:32pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly [sic] here...

              Where you are both wrong is in your idea that restaurants make "piles of cash".

              Oh, I am very well aware of this (except in some fringe cases). I was just responding to the fantasy scenario he created where restaurant owners "are now flush with cash".

              In my response to a post filled with absurdities I failed to point out that one absurdity. My bad.

              His whole "proposal" is idiotic to begin with anyway.

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      • identicon
        Johny Pneumonic, 14 Nov 2015 @ 3:29am

        Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

        10% gratuity at max.! It's their friggin' employment to serve the tables and if they're willing to do such a job for measly two and the half dollars per hour, then it's only and only their own very imbecilic choice to take on such severely underpaid employment/enslavement.

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          John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2015 @ 9:54am

          Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

          That's easy to say, but there are lots of places where that "imbecilic choice" is the only real alternative to unemplyment.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2015 @ 10:15am

          Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

          I've got a tip for you: avoid visiting the same restaurant or bar twice, because Tomato Pissque Soup and House Brand Revenge Liquor are real things.

          1) There will always be people willing to work for any amount of money, no matter how little.

          2) People will always patronize bars and restaurants no matter how bad the service, because many of them couldn't come up with an activity other than stuffing their faces with booze & food if their lives depended on it.

          3) Shit has two interesting properties: it rolls downhill to the servers, and it tends to splash back in the faces of customers who throw it.

          4) If you make reservations under your own name (or use anything other than cash to pay your bill/tab), avoiding returning to the same place until they forget your face won't necessarily help: restaurants across an entire region can easily share shit-lists of asshole customers' names. Servers will know you're coming, and treat you accordingly.

          On second thought, I'll revise my "tip": you should probably just never leave your house.

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            Harald K, 16 Nov 2015 @ 12:30am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

            > There will always be people willing to work for any amount of money, no matter how little.

            This is wrong. Such conditions have not always existed, and sometimes such conditions have been deliberately manufactured.

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              nasch (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 11:04am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              Such conditions have not always existed

              When was this time when there was nobody so poor they would be willing to work for nearly nothing?

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        Beta (profile), 14 Nov 2015 @ 5:36am

        Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

        "A server works a 5 hour shift... The [wages] for that time worked comes out to be $2.83 * 5 = $14.15... [Tips were] $100. [Tax rate is] 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made. Which comes out of the payroll of $14.15. Obv, that's a negative number. The server's paycheck comes out to be $0."

        So if I want to increase the servers paycheck (which naturally I do), then I should refrain from giving a tip, so that the server won't have such a huge tax bill and can take some of those wages home.

        I get it, you made a mildly funny math joke, like "What Happened to the Last Dollar?" But let's be serious again. The server's net income for the evening comes out to $91.32, I'm with you so far, go on...

        ...Oh, was that it?

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          ottermaton (profile), 15 Nov 2015 @ 2:23pm

          Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

          As I said above: I've been out of town for a few days, so this might go unnoticed (and most likely unheeded), but here goes anyway ...

          I get it, you made a mildly funny math joke, like "What Happened to the Last Dollar?"

          Huh? Are you implying that this isn't a real situation, that I just made this up?

          Don't believe me? Find a server you know and ask them to show you their paystub. If you don't know any (and you feel comfortable doing this) ask a server what their last paycheck was. Sometimes you will find one that has a paycheck that's a pittance, something in the $10 - $30 dollar range for a 2 week period, but they only got that by lying about the amount of tips they make. It's a common practice, but nevertheless a server can be Federally prosecuted for tax evasion.

          But let's be serious again. The server's net income for the evening comes out to $91.32

          It doesn't work like that -- more evidence (as if any was needed) that you don't know what you're talking about.

          Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference.

          I hope you don't think that the numbers in my example are in any way representative (with the exception of the server minimum wage of $2.83/hr). I picked $100 just because it's a nice, round number that's easy to do percentages on. I picked 20% (I'm sure that's low) because it is also an easy, round number to work with.

          Their gross income from that example would be $114.15. Their net income would be $100 ($100 in the tips they made, plus $0 on their paycheck). Of course, in the real world, it wouldn't even be that much. In almost every restaurant the servers are required to "tip out" some or all of the support staff like bartenders and/or hosts and/or bussers. That's probably gonna total up to somewhere around $10. Yes, owners of restaurants are that fucking cheap that they force the servers to pay the wages of other staff.

          And it gets even better. Say they work the next night and nobody comes in, they get $0 in tips. Think they're actually gonna get that $14.15 in wages? Fuck no. They still "owe" $5.85 from the night before which will be withheld.

          And better still! That $2.83/hr. They still have to pay taxes on that as well.

          ...Oh, was that it?

          I guess the point was lost on you, so I'll give it another shot (though you've already demonstrated that it would be in vain to hope that you understand any of this). Let's go on the assumption that the net income would have been $100, no side tip-outs. Let's also assume the "standard" tip is 15% (this varies depending on who you talk to, where you live, and the type of restaurant). You and your family had dinner there and the bill was $200 (maybe you have a large family, or it's an expensive restaurant). The 15% tip on that bill would be $30.

          You decide you don't wanna tip. Guess what? You have just removed $30 from that servers net income. Now it's only $70. All because you decided to be a prick because you're "above tipping" or some other bullshit. You are refusing to pay someone for work they did directly for you without a middleman.

          I have personally (and have seen others do this) refused to take a tip from a table because the service was screwed up. Servers don't want charity; they want you to hold up your end of the bargain you made when you walked in the door: to pay them for the work they do. There are plenty of other places where you can dine where tipping is not part of the "deal." Or you could just eat at home. But, noooooo. You're a special snowflake who demands tip-top service but refuses to pay for it.

          Is the whole tipping "culture" screwed up? Yea, I think you could make a very strong argument for that. But punishing the server is ultimately and completely ineffective. Who you should be angry with are the owners of these places and you should use your dollars to influence them.

          In the end, if you think you're gonna save some money by not tipping, you are sadly mistaken. If the owners decide to pay the servers more I guaran-fucking-tee you they're gonna pass those costs straight along to you in the form of higher menu prices. And a little more on top, just because.

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            Beta (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 1:57am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

            "Huh? Are you implying that this isn't a real situation, that I just made this up?"

            No, I was implying that your point was a kind of arithmetical wordplay, whether the situation was real or not.

            >But let's be serious again. The server's net income for the evening comes out to $91.32

            It doesn't work like that -- more evidence (as if any was needed) that you don't know what you're talking about.


            Oh? You said (in your scenario) that the server had "hourly pay" of $2.83 * 5 = $14.15, plus $100 in tips, and had to pay 20% in tax. By my calculation, $14.15 + $100 = $114.15, 20% of that is $22.83, leaving $91.32, but now you add:

            Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference.

            That's news to me, but if it's true then I must correct my figure: the server's net income for the evening is $0+$100 = $100, and once again the fact that none of this is in the form of a check means nothing.

            I guess the point was lost on you, so I'll give it another shot...

            Sure, you can take another shot, as long as you don't change the scenario.

            Let's go on the assumption that the net income would have been $100, [and you contributed $30 of it].

            You decide you don't wanna tip. Guess what? You have just removed $30 from that servers net income. Now it's only $70.


            No, you subtracted it when you changed the scenario. I added it in the first scenario; I didn't add it in the second, just as if I hadn't dined at the restaurant.

            [Personal attacks]... You are refusing to pay someone for work they did directly for you without a middleman... the bargain you made when you walked in the door...[personal attacks]...

            Ah, now you're no longer talking about numbers, but principle, which is a fair change to make. But look at how that "bargain" works. I have left tips more that 15% many times, but I've never had a server run after me to give me back the surplus. And oddly enough, the convention is a percentage of the price of the dishes, as if the service has anything to do with that. Still, as long as we are now talking about a matter of courtesy and not of accounting, I don't see much to argue about. (But if that's the point you're going for, you might ease up on the personal attacks.)

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              ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 2:50am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              No, I was implying that your point was a kind of arithmetical wordplay, whether the situation was real or not.

              It's not some sort of math trick and the situation is very much real.

              Oh? You said (in your scenario) that the server had "hourly pay" of $2.83 * 5 = $14.15, plus $100 in tips, and had to pay 20% in tax. By my calculation, $14.15 + $100 = $114.15, 20% of that is $22.83 ...
              Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference.
              That's news to me, but if it's true then I must correct my figure: the server's net income for the evening is $0+$100 = $100 ...


              That's correct. I had included that last calculation in one of my early "drafts", not sure why I took it out.

              ... and once again the fact that none of this is in the form of a check means nothing.

              Actually, that's pretty much the entire point: since the server effectively is not being paid anything by the restaurant when people decide not to tip that means the server isn't getting paid at all (or getting paid less when people choose to tip poorly).

              I'm not aware of any wordview/ethical position that says it's OK to not pay people for the work they do.

              No, I was implying that your point was a kind of arithmetical wordplay, whether the situation was real or not.

              You seem determined to believe that I'm trying to be deceitful and playing a "numbers game" to make my point. I'm not.

              I wouldn't call that so much a "change of scenario" as a demonstration of the direct effect not tipping has on the server's income.

              And oddly enough, the convention is a percentage of the price of the dishes, as if the service has anything to do with that.

              Actually, that's not entirely true. In a higher end restaurant better, more personal and time consuming service is expected. As one example, at a nice restaurant the server will usually recite that day's special dishes rather than tossing a sheet of paper on the table. That takes time. That may not sound like much, but doing this for each table adds up, and there are other things.

              Another example would be course timing, something that is not obvious to your average diner. In a typical chain restaurant (Friday's, Appleby's, etc) if you order an app, a soup, and an entree the server will put the orders in and when the kitchen has each ready they just bring them to the table, whether you're ready or not. It can and does lead to a situation where you have all your courses on the table at the same time. At a fine dining restaurant, that should never happen. Each course (which should be in the order of appetizer, soup/salad, entree) should be cleared from the table before another is brought. Most people wouldn't notice unless they've been in the business, but the server is keeping a close eye on you to know how to coordinate the timing of putting each ticket into the kitchen so that you don't end up with a buffet on your table. This takes time, effort, and experience.

              Still, as long as we are now talking about a matter of courtesy and not of accounting

              It may have started out as a courtesy but has evolved to a situation where it is much more often than not the only income of a server. That being the case, it's now an ethical question of whether you feel a person should be paid for the work they do.

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                Beta (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 1:23pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                I'm not aware of any wordview/ethical position that says it's OK to not pay people for the work they do.

                This might not be the best place to say that.

                Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases. And before you reply, please reflect on the fact that I work hard at my job and you have never paid me. [Note for the logic-impaired: I know that it is not appropriate to expect ottermaton to pay me, I am simply demonstrating the worldview/ethical position in question, and showing that ottermaton's argument requires a great deal work before it can stand on its own, more than I feel like doing today.]

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                  ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:12pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  Congrats! You've really spun yourself around in circles, moved the goalposts, and left a handful of caveats and loopholes to slink away in. You've even dropped the heavy implication that my position is wrong without even the smallest bit of counterpoint. Well done!

                  But I guess the only relevant question is ...

                  Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases.

                  ... is this restaurant scenario one of those situations?

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            Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:51am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

            Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference.


            That's not true. As far back as the early 80's when I waited tables you had to claim your tips every week on your time card. Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house. The paychecks I received were usually less than $50 for a 40 hour week after all the taxes were paid.

            You could fudge a little bit with the cash tips, but if you didn't at least cover the credit card tips and come some where close to a percentage of the total house sales you could expect to get your tax return audited.

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              Beta (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 1:29pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              That's what I thought. It's one reason I tip in cash, no matter how I pay the check.

              (Someday my credit card company will call up and ask me why I always tip "$0", and I'll give them my best Scrooge voice: "They think themselves ill-used, I'll be bound!...")

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                ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 4:53pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                That's what I thought.

                See my response to Gwiz who is confused and wrong.

                It's one reason I tip in cash, no matter how I pay the check.

                And this is the preferred method as far as the servers are concerned because tips on credit cards are automatically reported The taxes on those as well as the amount of cash tips the server decides to report are then taken out of the paycheck. The paycheck is the only transaction where taxes are collected. A server never pays taxes with their tips.

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              ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 4:45pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              That's not true. As far back as the early 80's when I waited tables you had to claim your tips every week on your time card. Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house. The paychecks I received were usually less than $50 for a 40 hour week after all the taxes were paid.

              What you just said in no way refutes what I said. Servers DO NOT pay into taxes with their tips period. You even confirm that point by saying, "Taxes for the tips were removed from the paycheck you received from the house."

              Apparently you're misunderstanding me, because nothing in this statement is untrue: "Taxes are only taken out of a paycheck. That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference." And nothing in your retort says anything to contradict it at all.

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                Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:05pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                Servers DO NOT pay into taxes with their tips period

                Servers have to claim thier tips. It's considered taxable income by the IRS. You seem to be making some sort of silly distinction between whether the taxes are withheld from the actual tips or from the paycheck from the house. It makes no difference at all. The bottom line is the fact that the tips are considered taxable income and servers do pay income taxes on the money they receive in tips.

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                  ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:18pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  The bottom line is the fact that the tips are considered taxable income and servers do pay income taxes on the money they receive in tips.

                  Yes, they are taxable income. Yes, they pay taxes are their tips but only out of their paycheck. Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never.

                  What's so hard to understand about this?

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                    Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:29pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                    What's so hard to understand about this?

                    Nothing, which is why your silly distinction is baffling to me.

                    Tips are considered income. Income taxes are paid on tips. It really doesn't matter if those taxes are paid from the actual tips, the payheck from the house, the server's bank account or from a rusty can of coins buried in the server's backyard. Income taxes are paid on the tips, that's what matters.

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                      ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:45pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      It really doesn't matter if those taxes are paid from the actual tips, the payheck from the house, the server's bank account or from a rusty can of coins buried in the server's backyard. Income taxes are paid on the tips

                      Yea, so in your "experience" over 30 years ago, tell me how many times you paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes?

                      I already know the answer is ZERO

                      The ONLY place where you put money into taxes (and you weren't even really doing it yourself) is from your paycheck.

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                      • icon
                        Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 7:08am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        The ONLY place where you put money into taxes (and you weren't even really doing it yourself) is from your paycheck.

                        That is simply not true. Here is a quote from the IRS on this. It's from one of the links I posted below:
                        Giving your employer money for taxes. Your regular pay may not be enough for your employer to withhold all the taxes you owe on your regular pay plus your reported tips. If this happens, you can give your employer money until the close of the calendar year to pay the rest of the taxes. [...] If withholding taxes remain uncollected at the end of the year, you may be subject to a penalty for underpayment of estimated taxes.

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                        • icon
                          ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 7:58am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                          ... you can give your employer money until the close of the calendar year to pay the rest of the taxes

                          Notice that word "can" there? That means it is NOT a requirement, it's entirely optional. I have over and over and over challenged you to name a time in your serving career when you paid taxes in a way other than your paycheck and you haven't. Are you finally willing to admit that you can't because you never did? Not some example from a completely different occupation that's classified totally differently (as a 1099 subcontractor rather than an "actual" employee), but as a server. I won't hold my breath because I know you can't.

                          Notice any difference there? I'm challenging you on claims you definitely made but can't back up. You, on the other hand, are arguing against a claim that I never made.

                          You won't find another server to say that they paid taxes in some way other than out of their paycheck because it just doesn't happen. Yea, their is a very, very remote possibility that it might happen, but in the real world it simply does not.

                          Let me be clear. Never once did I claim that tips are not taxable income. In fact in my first post on this thread I said:

                          Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.

                          You are doing a fine job of making yourself look disingenuous when you're arguing against a point that nobody claimed.

                          In the end the real point is this:
                          Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.
                          Try to stay on topic. Dude.

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                          • icon
                            Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:58am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            Notice any difference there? I'm challenging you on claims you definitely made but can't back up. You, on the other hand, are arguing against a claim that I never made.

                            No, I can't back that up based on my own personal situation. At the time I was a server I was being claimed as a dependent on my parent's tax returns and didn't actually do my own tax returns.

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                          • icon
                            Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:26am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            Also, here a couple of links to servers complaing about having to pay taxes on thier tips at tax refund time:
                            My company audits each server monthly to make sure we are claiming enough.
                            and out of the 30 + servers in my company I'd say 90 % of us owe taxes at the end of the year....... some over 2000.00
                            because our hourly wages do not equal enough to pay the taxes on our sales.
                            and to be blunt about it.......
                            NOT ONE OF US recieves an actual paycheck
                            we get a piece of paper that says THIS IS NOT A CHECK!

                            https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070526074701AAYK9d8

                            I make 2.80/hr at Olive Garden & they claim a certain amount automatically & my paychecks are normally 0$ every week. This year I had $800 federal withholding & still ended up owing this year. Should I be claiming more or less tips so I don't owe at the end of the year? Sorry I just really dont understand how some co-workers are getting money back & i'm owing?
                            https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20140119170353AAbqhRY

                            That's just a couple I found with a quick Google search.

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                    • icon
                      Beta (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 10:02pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      I find it weirdly fascinating. I have a hypothesis -- still very tentative -- that it has to do with a kind of emotional back-propagation.

                      This isn't really the place for discussion of rationality and cognitive science, but I might just be able to get an essay out of this thread...

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                      • icon
                        ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:01am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        Perhaps rather than making such a condescending remark, you could respond to the real point of this discussion that Gwiz has done a remarkable job of distracting us from:

                        Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.

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                      • icon
                        ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:04am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        Also, still waiting on the answer to this one:

                        Anyway, I have a worldview/ethical position in which it is absolutely 100% OK to not pay people for the work they do in some cases.

                        ... is this restaurant scenario one of those situations?

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                • icon
                  ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:07pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  The bottom line is the fact that the tips are ...

                  Let me finish that for you: ... the only income the servers receive. They effectively don't get a paycheck. If you're not tipping, you're directly messing with someone's income.

                  That was the bottom line before you butted in.

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                  • icon
                    Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:16pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                    That was the bottom line before you butted in.

                    Still keeping it classy, I see.

                    By all means, continue on with your misinformed notions. My apologies for correcting you.

                    Have a nice day. :)

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                    • icon
                      ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:17pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      My apologies for correcting you.

                      Too bad you didn't.

                      And can't.

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                    • icon
                      ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:22pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      Still keeping it classy, I see.

                      You butt into a conversation spouting bullshit and when you get called on your bullshit you claim the person pointing out how rude you are for bringing incorrect (and frankly, irrelevant to the actual point) information is the one not being "classy"? Good grief.

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                      • icon
                        Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 6:37am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        You butt into a conversation...

                        This isn't a private chat - you are in a public forum, dude.



                        ...and when you get called on your bullshit...

                        Not bullshit. Try educating yourself a little bit:

                        https://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Reporting-Tip-Income-Restaur ant-Tax-Tips

                        https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p531.pdf

                        Tips are taxable income. Servers have to pay taxes on tips because it's taxable income. If not enough money was withheld from the server's paycheck to cover the taxes on both the hourly wage and the tips combined, the server will owe the IRS at the end of the year.

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                        • icon
                          ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 7:37am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                          Tips are taxable income. Servers have to pay taxes on tips because it's taxable income.

                          Can you, for once, try to NOT move the goalposts? Can you manage that?

                          Show me where I a single damn time said tips were not taxable income. In fact, in my very first post in this thread I said this:

                          Let's say [the tips were] $100. And let's say there's a "tax rate" ... of 20%. So that server owes the gov't $20 in taxes for the amount of tips made.

                          It's fascinating to watch how you move the goalposts, backpedal, and pretty much repeat exactly what I said in the first place in your vain attempt to "win" some Internet debate. Not to mention the fact that this one tiny little point that you are so laser-focused on has next to nothing to do with the point at hand, which is this:

                          Servers don't get a paycheck because the taxes on their tips eat it up. When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.

                          Try to stay on topic. Dude.

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                          • icon
                            Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:07am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            It's fascinating to watch how you move the goalposts, backpedal, and pretty much repeat exactly what I said in the first place in your vain attempt to "win" some Internet debate.

                            I was simply disputing your assertions that "Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never." and "The Fed just eats the difference." You are wrong on both of those points.


                            When you don't tip a server you are directly messing with their income.

                            So what? When my car mechanic fucks up my car, I don't pay him either. That's directly messing with his income too. I don't pay for poor service anywhere. If a server is so bad that I don't believe they deserve my "gratitude" I won't leave a tip. If they are especially egregious, I will leave a penny just so they know I didn't forget the tip and I gave them what I thought their service was worth to me.

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                            • icon
                              ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 9:15am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                              I was simply disputing your assertions that "Servers never ever ever pay taxes out of their tip money. Never." and "The Fed just eats the difference." You are wrong on both of those points.

                              That's quite a claim, because you have yet to show anything to refute either point. I have asked you repeatedly to show point out a single time where YOU, when you were a server, paid your tips in a way other than your paycheck. You haven't because you can't.

                              And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.

                              Likewise, show me a time when you or another server had to pay taxes into the system or even had their refund reduced at year's end tax return time. You can't because this also does not happen.

                              You can't demonstrate either of those things, yet still have the temerity to say that I'm wrong all because you just have to pretend to win your little Internet debate on an insignificant and largely irrelevant point. You're a joke.

                              When my car mechanic fucks up my car, I don't pay him either.

                              There you go again, talking about an utterly different situation. Why are you so desperate to "win" this exchange that you feel you have to move the goalposts all the time?

                              If a server is so bad that I don't believe they deserve my "gratitude" I won't leave a tip.

                              Again, you're arguing against something nobody has claimed. I certainly never said you should tip on bad service. In fact, if you weren't so obsessed with trying to win you would already know that I said this about that:

                              I have personally (and have seen others do this) refused to take a tip from a table because the service was screwed up. Servers don't want charity

                              The only thing in question anymore is now that you have repeatedly used the tactics of arguing a claim not made and repeatedly moving the goalposts and been called on them, what desperate measure will you use next in your futile attempt to "win"? Here's a list for you to choose among.

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                              • icon
                                Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:05am

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.

                                I'm sure it happens all the time - especially at high-end restaurants where the hourly wage won't even come close to covering the tax liability. You need to prove your claim that "it doesn't happen". I've showed you the IRS links that proves that the tax is still owed, whether it's withheld or not.

                                Look at lines 75-79 on a 1040 Return form. If you overpaid your tax liability through withholding you get a refund. If you didn't pay enough through withholding you send a check in with your return. It's the same for anyone who doesn't cover their tax liability with withholding.

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                                • icon
                                  ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:22am

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                  Hahaha! That's a nice little trick, but I'm not falling for it.

                                  Now that you've been called on a bunch of Logical Fallacies, you're trying to shift the blame to me to try to prove a negative: "You need to prove your claim that 'it doesn't happen'

                                  Really? What do you expect me to do? Compile all the tax returns of every server in the US and pass them along to you for review? Pffft.

                                  This has gone well beyond the point of ridiculousness. You just keep bringing up all sorts of little technicalities -- that you're not even able to support, by the way -- that really have nothing to do with the central issue. All they have to do with is your ego and desire to score a win.

                                  I'm tired of it. Buh-bye.

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                                  • icon
                                    Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:30am

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                    All they have to do with is your ego and desire to score a win.

                                    Lol. You are the one with the problem admitting you are wrong about something. Not me.

                                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                  • icon
                                    Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:48am

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                    ...that really have nothing to do with the central issue.

                                    I thought I made this clear to you awhile ago. I do not and will not conform to what you think the rules of this comment section should be. It's not your blog. I'll wander off on tangents and respond to minor incorrect facts in comments as I please.

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                                    • icon
                                      ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 11:41am

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                      I do not and will not conform to normal etiquette in human interaction. It's not your blog or mine but I like to pretend I'm in charge around here, because I'm a special snowflake. I'll wander off on tangents and spout a bunch of bullshit that has nothing to do with the matter at hand in comments as I please.

                                      FTFY

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                                      • icon
                                        Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 12:22pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                        I do not and will not conform to normal etiquette in human interaction.

                                        Lol. Do you get pissed off at your buddies at the bar when they start talking about something other than what you are talking about? You must be loads of fun to hang out with, I'm sure.


                                        It's not your blog or mine but I like to pretend I'm in charge around here, because I'm a special snowflake.

                                        I'm not the one who bitches about about going off-topic or responding to obvious trolls. You on the other hand...


                                        I'll wander off on tangents...

                                        Yes. I wander off on tangents if I feel like it. So what? So does most normal human conversation.


                                        ...and spout a bunch of bullshit that has nothing to do with the matter at hand...

                                        Yet, I provided quotes and links to support my position. What did you provide? Oh yeah, lots of don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up in the form of "I already know the answer is ZERO".

                                        Too funny, dude.

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                                        • icon
                                          ottermaton (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 8:38am

                                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                          You must be loads of fun to hang out with, I'm sure.

                                          And you go all pedantic about a totally irrelevant point (one which, I'll add, actually supports my position ... has that dawned on you yet?) and piss and moan and throw a tantrum, but you accuse me of not being fun to hang out with? hahahahaha! That's really rich!

                                          I provided quotes and links to support my position.

                                          That would be OK if you actually had a position. But you don't. You've been pedantic about one minor point that supports my position.

                                          Also, since I already gave you "credit" for those (even though they were Yahoo Answers citations (that must be an oxymoron)), what are you still harping on about? Can't stop your pedanticism?

                                          (By the way, make sure you show Mommy how you "won" an Internet debate. She might let you have ice cream tonight!)

                                          [your] mind is already made up in the form of "I already know the answer is ZERO".

                                          Considering that what I was referencing every single time was asking you to show me that you have, in fact, "paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes" and you have yet to show me that you have, I guess the answer is actually ZERO.

                                          I was, in fact, correct. And we both know it.

                                          The larger point that I was making still stands. You have no point at all. And we both know it.

                                          Stings, doesn't it? Dude.

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                                          • icon
                                            Gwiz (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 9:31am

                                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                            The larger point that I was making still stands. You have no point at all. And we both know it.

                                            I didn't really care about your overall point. It's so obvious to anyone with more than a sixth grade education that servers rely upon tips for their livelihood. So what?

                                            I took exception to you using incorrect facts to support that position. I corrected you because those facts were incorrect. Get over it.


                                            Considering that what I was referencing every single time was asking you to show me that you have, in fact, "paid money out of your actual tips into taxes, took money out of your bank account to pay those taxes, or dug up a rusty can to pay those taxes" and you have yet to show me that you have, I guess the answer is actually ZERO.

                                            As I explained above, I cannot prove that with my own personal experience, since at the time, I was being declared a dependent on my parents tax returns and my father's accountant prepared my tax returns. I don't have access to that information which was probably thrown out when my father died.

                                            I did however, show that the IRS does require the server to cover any tax liability that withholding doesn't cover. One of the links even advises the server to give the employer extra money (presumably from their tips) throughout the year to avoid paying additional penalties at the end of the year on the tax that is owed.

                                            All you came back with was your own personal certitude that "that never happens in real life" without so much as shred of evidence to back that up.


                                            Stings, doesn't it? Dude.

                                            Nope. Not even a little bit. I simply corrected you on a couple of incorrect facts you used to support your point. Instead of acknowledging you were wrong or even the fact that you might possibly be wrong, you got all butt-hurt, dug in your heels, doubled-down and started tossing insults around like a petulant child. How would that "sting" me?

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                                            • icon
                                              ottermaton (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 10:35am

                                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                              I cannot prove that with my own personal experience,

                                              Which is exactly why I have KNOWN all along the answer is ZERO.

                                              your own personal certitude that "that never happens in real life"

                                              It's never happened to me. We KNOW that it's happened to YOU exactly ZERO times ... haha! It's never happened to ANY server I've ever known.

                                              I corrected you because those facts were incorrect.

                                              It was one, single largely irrelevant item. Not plural. Get over yourself. Dude.

                                              So, you got some links from Yahoo Answers (guffaw!) to back you up. Big whoop.

                                              Fact is, my point was and is correct. You, on the other hand, have no point except to be pedantic.

                                              started tossing insults around

                                              Says the person living in a glass house ...

                                              a petulant child

                                              There's one. From YOU.

                                              got all butt-hurt

                                              There's another. From YOU.

                                              dug in your heels, doubled-down

                                              Could be considered insults. By YOU.

                                              (And those are just from your most recent post!)

                                              You have a serious case of Psychological Projection going on there. Dude.

                                              It's OK, man. You made your one tiny, little correction. EVERYBODY knows it. You're the winner. Calm down. Stop sulking.

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                                              • icon
                                                Gwiz (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 11:53am

                                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                                Oh man, this thread has gotten ridiculous now.

                                                If you want to take my personal observations of your behavior on this thread and elsewhere as insults, that's cool. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

                                                When someone has called me out and proven me wrong on some incorrect fact I stated here on Techdirt, I, more often than not, accept it graciously. You can look through my history and see that it's true. (hint: I usually preface such admissions with "Fair enough"). Unfortunately, not everyone here can admit when they were wrong, even when presented with clear evidence to the contrary. Even less can do it without having to throw a insult in to make themselves feel better.

                                                You seem to be the one sulking about this, not me. I'm at the point where I am laughing at you.

                                                Have a nice life. :)

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                                                • icon
                                                  ottermaton (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 12:35pm

                                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                                  If you want to take my personal observations of your behavior on this thread and elsewhere as insults, that's cool.

                                                  I do. Most people consider name calling an insult (aside from being obviously juvenile). Not that I'm at all concerned about being insulted by you. I just found it funny that you're projecting that behavior on to me when you are clearly much, much more guilty of it.

                                                  When someone has called me out and proven me wrong on some incorrect fact I stated here on Techdirt, I, more often than not, accept it graciously

                                                  Really? You call what you were doing (dodging, changing the goalposts and so on) about being called out on having paid taxes on your tips out of your pocket ZERO times being gracious?!? You really have no idea how you appear to others, do you? I KNEW it from the very first time you said it and it took you FOREVER to finally 'fess up that you were full of shit.

                                                  Contrast that with the FIRST time you gave me a link, I said, "But anyway, you did your work, I'll give you credit."
                                                  I guess you missed (or, much more likely, chose to ignore) that part, huh?

                                                  I'm at the point where I am laughing at you.

                                                  Don't you realize I've been laughing at you this whole time? That and you believing that you appear gracious convinces me that you really have no idea how you are perceived.

                                                  PS: I guess you must have seen the First and Last Words which is why you're still having this same tired tantrum.

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                              • icon
                                Gwiz (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 10:28am

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                And you can't find another server that has, either, because it does not happen.


                                I have. I replied in the wrong location, but here it is:

                                https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110226/12362613267/dailydirt-leaving-good-tip.shtml#c855

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                                • icon
                                  ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 12:57pm

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                  Well, you know what they say about exceptions proving rules, don't you? Not to mention your sources are Yahoo Answers, the world renowned authority in wrong answers.

                                  But anyway, you did your work, I'll give you credit. Happy now? Give yourself a high-five for winning your little Internet debate!

                                  Remind me: what does that have to do with the matter at hand? Oh, it actually reinforces my whole point because when (in those outlier cases) a server has to pay money into the IRS at tax time and if someone isn't tipping them, that's actually screwing the server's income even more!

                                  I know you didn't intend it, but thanks! haha

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              • icon
                Beta (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:08pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                All right, let's clear this up once and for all.

                Server Sue works a five-hour shift, ostensibly for $3/hr, and collects $85 in cash tips. The tax rate is 20%.

                She reports her tips (honestly) and goes home with $85 cash and a paycheck (or pay stub, or whatever) marked "$0".

                She fills out her tax return: gross income $15 + $85 = $100, rate 20%, tax $20, withheld $15, tax due $20 - $15 = $5. She takes $5 out of the jelly jar and mails it to the tax collector.

                Did I get that right? Does she pay the $5, or does the Fed "eat the difference"? Does she wind up with $80 for that shift? Or $85? Or some other amount? Note that I'm not asking about other things like the price of postage stamps, or MEANINGLESS distinctions like whether she paid $15 or was not paid $15, or was paid and then charged $15. Did I describe the sequence of events and states correctly?

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                • icon
                  ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:39pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  Server Sue works a five-hour shift, ostensibly for $3/hr, and collects $85 in cash tips. The tax rate is 20%.

                  She reports her tips (honestly) and goes home with $85 cash and a paycheck (or pay stub, or whatever) marked "$0".


                  Why, oh why, did you recreate my original scenario and just changed the numbers a bit? What is the point of doing that?

                  She fills out her tax return: gross income $15 + $85 = $100, rate 20%, tax $20, withheld $15, tax due $20 - $15 = $5. She takes $5 out of the jelly jar and mails it to the tax collector.

                  No, no, no, no, no. A thousand times no! What is so hard to understand about: Servers NEVER pay taxes into the system out of their tips. Taxes ONLY get taken out of their paycheck

                  (There is a potential scenario where a persons tax refund mighttheoretically be reduced by the difference in income earned and taxes paid (via the ONLY play they are EVER paid: the paycheck) but at the income levels we're talking about that just isn't gonna happen)

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                • icon
                  Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:44pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  Did I get that right?

                  Yes. Although, she wouldn't really mail $5 everytime that happened. It would be calculated on her 1040 income tax return for the entire year. If she had underpaid for the year, she has to send in a check to the IRS for the difference and if she had overpaid, she gets an income tax refund.

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                  • icon
                    ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:47pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                    If she had underpaid for the year, she has to send in a check to the IRS for the difference and if she had overpaid, she gets an income tax refund.

                    And how many times in your experience did either of those scenarios happen to you?

                    I already know the answer is ZERO

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                    • icon
                      Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:07pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      I already know the answer is ZERO

                      You are wrong. I worked a couple of years as a contract cable installer. It was a 10-99 position. I owed taxes at the end of the year on my income because nothing was withheld from my paychecks to cover the taxes.

                      Most years I get a tax refund when I file my 1040 return because they withheld more income taxes than I owe. That's what an income tax refund is - money you have overpaid through wihholding on your paychecks.

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                      • icon
                        ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:16pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        I worked a couple of years as a contract cable installer

                        FFS, you can't move the goalposts into an an entirely different profession and then claim that I'm wrong.

                        Tell me -- and I KNOW you already know this is intent of the original question because it was in response to you claiming to have been a server -- how many times as a server did you do any of those things you mention?

                        I already know the answer is ZERO

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              • icon
                Gwiz (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 5:19pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                That's why it's called Income Withholding. Servers don't pay taxes into the system. The Fed just eats the difference." And nothing in your retort says anything to contradict it at all.

                The Feds do not "eat the difference". Lots of employers do not withhold income taxes on wages. 10-99 employes or "contract workers" do not have income taxes withheld. It's the responsibility of the worker to pay the income tax on thier own. Income tax not being withheld doesn't, in any way, relieve someone of the responsibility of having to pay the tax.

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                • icon
                  ottermaton (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 6:11pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  It's the responsibility of the worker to pay the income tax on thier own.

                  In your experience those many years ago, how many times did you "pay the income tax on [your] own"?

                  I already know the answer is ZERO.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 17 Nov 2015 @ 12:43am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

            You decide you don't wanna tip. Guess what? You have just removed $30 from that servers net income. Now it's only $70. All because you decided to be a prick because you're "above tipping" or some other bullshit. You are refusing to pay someone for work they did directly for you without a middleman.
            This is where you're belief system is totally screwed up. The server is being paid to do a job by the owner, not by the customer. The customer is paying the owner to provide a specific service to the customer. The owner employs server to perform this task.

            It is not the responsibility of the customer to pay anything to the server for the service provided. The server provides the service as per the arrangements he/she has with the owner (that is a part of their job for which the owner's responsibility is to pay them the agreed upon wage).

            If, during the course of the service, a customer finds that the server has provided an exemplary service, it is the right of the customer to choose to show his/her gratitude in any manner deemed fit by the customer. This may take various forms, including complimenting the server, complimenting the service provided to the owner, or if they feel it is appropriate, rewarding the server in some manner, including financial. Anything in this range, is a gift from the customer to the server and should not be an expectation. Accordingly, it is a non-taxable gift. Though you Americans, seem to have the idea that any gift is taxable.

            I had the opportunity this morning, after friendly smiling service, to speak to the senior person at the business. I made sure that I highlighted my delight at the service and how it was superior to what I had received elsewhere. I did not nor do I feel it in any way necessary to pay the specific staff in question a financial benefit. I make it a point to look around me and compliment people who are doing their job well, no matter kind of job it is.

            If the wages being supplied by the owner are not compatible with survival then it is the right of the server to find other work. However, the mentality is for people to think they are owed something, irrespective of whether you are an employer or an employee.

            Get a life and grow up. If the system is problematic, then do something about it. That is what trade unions were supposed to do in the beginning.

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            • icon
              ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:27am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              I had the opportunity this morning, after friendly smiling service, to speak to the senior person at the business. I made sure that I highlighted my delight at the service and how it was superior to what I had received elsewhere. I did not nor do I feel it in any way necessary to pay the specific staff in question a financial benefit. I make it a point to look around me and compliment people who are doing their job well, no matter kind of job it is.

              It sounds as if this was not a food service kind of business, though I can't really be sure. Regardless, at the end of your meeting or whatever it was, if you had known that the owners were not paying those wonderful smiling employees a livable wage, would have then even given a thought to throwing a few bucks their way? Beyond that, would you even consider doing business with a company that you know doesn't pay its people?

              If the system is problematic, then do something about it.

              As I have said repeatedly, the thing to do is not patronize establishments that do not provide a livable wage to their staff. What are YOU doing about it?

              Why don't you vote with your feet and dollars instead of blaming the "victim" (too strong of a word for this case, I know) and taking it out on them?

              Yes, we know that you're just gonna have your little tantrum, stomp your feet and still support those kind of places because you feel you are owed going to a nice place where the staff depend on tips for their livelihood, yet somehow still feel that you are entitled to not pay those tips.

              It's YOU who needs to grow up. Adults take responsibility for their actions. Adults don't demand their desires be fulfilled without giving anything in return.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2015 @ 1:26am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                It sounds as if this was not a food service kind of business, though I can't really be sure. Regardless, at the end of your meeting or whatever it was, if you had known that the owners were not paying those wonderful smiling employees a livable wage
                yes it was a food service business. If it came to light that the business was paying the minimum wage (age dependent and permanent/part-time/casual based) of ~$17/hr, they would be prosecuted by the relevant government authority.

                Beyond that, would you even consider doing business with a company that you know doesn't pay its people?
                Now, now, if a business is corrupt enough to treat staff this way, why would they treat their customers any better? hence, why would I be bothered to do business with them?

                Yes, we know that you're just gonna have your little tantrum, stomp your feet and still support those kind of places because you feel you are owed going to a nice place where the staff depend on tips for their livelihood, yet somehow still feel that you are entitled to not pay those tips.
                That's almost funny, I am quite select about who I support with my patronage. Still doesn't mean I'll be leaving tips as a matter of course. You yanks have such a superiority about you country and your independence of personhood, that you forget that government can give a certain level of protection for those who are less powerful. I still only consider tipping for exceptional service, above and beyond the level of service expected at the particular establishment. And I only tip if I feel that that is the most appropriate means of demonstrating my delight. If a tip is expected, then I won't be frequenting that establishment again.

                It's YOU who needs to grow up. Adults take responsibility for their actions. Adults don't demand their desires be fulfilled without giving anything in return.
                Is it any wonder that you yanks are considered children and generally infantile. You expect others to take responsibility for your predicaments, instead of standing on your own two feet and facing the world. I have had many jobs over the years (in a variety of different fields) and if one turned out such that I couldn't live on the wage supplied, I moved on. It doesn't take a lot of skill, it takes a willingness to try and do. If you take a server position because it is all you "feel" you can do, then that is your problem. If you need to, move to another area and get a different job. Many people do that already.

                There are going to be many employers who will take advantage of their staff in this way, You don't stick around and moan about it. You get off your backside and do something about it.

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            • icon
              nasch (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 8:32am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

              The server provides the service as per the arrangements he/she has with the owner (that is a part of their job for which the owner's responsibility is to pay them the agreed upon wage).

              That agreement is based on the worker also getting tips from customers. Minimum wage laws explicitly acknowledge this - the minimum wage is lower for a job that receives tips than for one that doesn't. You can choose not to tip, but if you do it in the US you should understand that in general tips are a server's livelihood. Don't go to a restaurant where the servers need tips in order to pay their bills, and then pretend it's none of your business what the employees are paid.

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              • icon
                ottermaton (profile), 17 Nov 2015 @ 9:18am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                Thank goodness there's at least one other person around here with some common sense and basic courtesy/decency.

                Thanks nasch!

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2015 @ 1:53am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                That agreement is based on the worker also getting tips from customers.
                Right, so your agreement with your employer then mandates that the customer has to, without the customer being part of the agreement, participate in your agreement. Are you stupid or something? What has your agreement with your employer got to do with me (as a customer who has not agreed to this employment clause)? If you want to do that, fine. But it does not put me under any obligation to agree to your terms of employment. I pay for the service rendered by the business, and does not under any situation, render me responsible for any agreement you (as a server) have undertaken with your employer. As far as I am concerned, you are a part of that business, not a separate entity with which I am also doing business.

                This is completely separate from any extraordinary service that you give me, for which I feel it appropriate to thank you for your extraordinary service.

                blockquote>Don't go to a restaurant where the servers need tips in order to pay their bills, and then pretend it's none of your business what the employees are paid.Who says I would? I am highlighting that it is none of my business what you have negotiated with your employer. If you have made tips a part of the negotiation of wages and conditions, then it is on your head and your responsibility, not mine.

                If you are stupid enough to go down this path, that is your responsibility. If you don't like it, go elsewhere and get another job. Even if it means you move to another town or city in another state or even country. Many people do this now.

                Finally, if you expect the customer to be forced to pay up extra for service, when they are already paying for that service, then this is just the mentality of mafia protectionist schemes. Call it for what it is, extortion.

                You either have fair dealings between employer and employees or you don't. If you don't, you either have employers running roughshod over employees, or you have employees running roughshod over employers. Both of these are bad.

                But employer/employee relationships should not depend on any customer filling the gap.

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                • icon
                  nasch (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 6:32am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                  Right, so your agreement with your employer then mandates that the customer has to, without the customer being part of the agreement, participate in your agreement. Are you stupid or something?

                  You're the one having trouble with basic reading comprehension. I will quote myself: "You can choose not to tip..." See, that is the exact opposite of what you seemed to think I said.

                  Again, you can do whatever you want with your money. But if you choose not to tip servers in the US do it with the understanding that your choice is directly affecting their livelihood. That your choice is causing them to work for essentially no pay. Whether you like it or not, and clearly you don't, saying "that's not my problem" doesn't change the consequences of your decision on other people. If you're fine with those consequences, go ahead. If you're not, eat somewhere that tips aren't expected. I recommend Chipotle.

                  I totally get that this isn't how it is where you live (Europe?). The way you do things works great there, and my comments are not relevant to how you do business at home.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2015 @ 10:17am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                    You're the one having trouble with basic reading comprehension. I will quote myself: "You can choose not to tip..." See, that is the exact opposite of what you seemed to think I said.

                    Again, you can do whatever you want with your money. But if you choose not to tip servers in the US do it with the understanding that your choice is directly affecting their livelihood.
                    I'm not having any problem with basic reading comprehension. It does not make any difference to the point that the employment agreement between employer and employee has nothing to do with the customer. If your agreement is affected by no tips that is your problem not the customer. That is the bed you have made, not the customer. It is not the responsibility of the customer to be making up any shortfall that the employee might experience because not enough tips are left. That is solely the domain of the employer/employee agreement.

                    If you want to put the guilt trip on your customers for your choices then you are just playing the blame game. Tips are not the responsibility of the customer, they are purely one of the options available to the customer if they receive exceptional service. Tips are a possible reward/gift not a right.

                    Your determination of putting the consequences of the wage agreement of the employer/employee onto the customer shows a complete lack of maturity. It is never the responsibility of the customer for your wage agreements.

                    You can whine all you like, but you are just coming across as immature. As I have said before, if the agreement is not supporting your lifestyle, get another job. Don't try and justify your lack in negotiating your employment agreement by moaning about how poor you are and using that to justify demanding an extra payout from the customer.

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                    • icon
                      nasch (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 10:41am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      Your determination of putting the consequences of the wage agreement of the employer/employee onto the customer shows a complete lack of maturity.

                      No, it just reflects reality. It is a simple fact that without tips, most servers cannot make a living. Their wages minus taxes due amount to nothing or almost nothing. This is not a decision that is made by individual servers, it's just how the current situation is the US. The job market for relatively low-skilled workers is such that "just get another job" is often not practical.


                      You can whine all you like, but you are just coming across as immature.


                      I'm not whining, I'm just encouraging you to accept the consequences of your actions. I'm not sure what's immature about that.

                      As I have said before, if the agreement is not supporting your lifestyle, get another job.

                      In an ideal world where jobs are plentiful, sure. In the world we actually live in, that's often not a useful suggestion.

                      Don't try and justify your lack in negotiating your employment agreement...

                      This pretends that a server has any negotiating leverage whatsoever. He does not. Your general approach seems to focus on theory and how you would like things to be, rather than reality. I'm just pointing out reality.

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                      • identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2015 @ 11:50pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        No, it just reflects reality. It is a simple fact that without tips, most servers cannot make a living. Their wages minus taxes due amount to nothing or almost nothing.
                        So your saying that your taxes are at or around 95% to 100% of your wages? Then you have a problem with your government. If you are not saying that then you are leaving out the facts that are applicable.
                        I'm not whining, I'm just encouraging you to accept the consequences of your actions. I'm not sure what's immature about that.
                        You're whining because you are declaring that my responsibility covers the agreement between employee/employer and I don't accept that viewpoint as the agreement has nothing to do with me. The consequences are of the making of the employee and employer. I pay for a specific thing which includes the service. That is as far as my responsibility goes.

                        Now if I consider that the particular business is unfairly treating its employees, I have a number of options. The main one is to not do business with them and ensure that everyone I know likewise curtails their business associations. But if the employees work there willingly on the basis of some expectations or agreements that don't come to pass, then it is NOT my responsibility to fulfil those expectations.
                        In an ideal world where jobs are plentiful, sure. In the world we actually live in, that's often not a useful suggestion.
                        Funnily enough, I have heard many complaints that positions can't be filled because the job is beneath many people. The job itself pays okay, it's just unpleasant.
                        This pretends that a server has any negotiating leverage whatsoever. He does not. Your general approach seems to focus on theory and how you would like things to be, rather than reality. I'm just pointing out reality.
                        You always have a negotiating leverage, it may not be much but it is always there. It depends on what you can offer or think you can offer and make that attractive to the employer. The reality is that there are people who are not worth working for, no matter how attractive the job and there are people who are worth working for, no matter how unattractive the job. You have to make a choice. It is a very common trait that people are either too lazy, too afraid, too greedy or just can't think outside of the box to change their circumstances. This is not theory, this is reality.

                        In the case of servers, it may take a change of attitude and a change of direction to improve their circumstances. But having an expectation that someone (not their employer) owes them a tip is self-defeating.

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                        • icon
                          nasch (profile), 20 Nov 2015 @ 7:18am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                          So your saying that your taxes are at or around 95% to 100% of your wages?

                          Not mine, but wait staff.

                          Then you have a problem with your government.

                          Correct.

                          You're whining because you are declaring that my responsibility covers the agreement between employee/employer

                          Nope, I never said that.

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                          • identicon
                            Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2015 @ 3:36pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            Nope, I never said that.

                            That agreement is based on the worker also getting tips from customers. Minimum wage laws explicitly acknowledge this - the minimum wage is lower for a job that receives tips than for one that doesn't. You can choose not to tip, but if you do it in the US you should understand that in general tips are a server's livelihood.
                            —nasch
                            With that comment you are implicitly saying that it is my responsibility. I am refuting that comment by saying explicitly that the employment agreement they have entered is not my responsibility.

                            Both of you have taken the position that it is the customers responsibility to tip the servers and to do so adequately based on the employment agreements that the servers as an employee has entered into with their employer. If the customer does not so tip then they are low-life customers and hence bad people.

                            All of your arguments have been to this effect. It doesn't matter if it is custom or not. Whether or not a person tips is solely up to them based on what they determine is an appropriate response for the service they receive. They have already paid for the service as a part of the cost of the meal/drinks they have received. If they want to go beyond this, that is their right and choice.

                            The expectation that the customer owes you, the employee, for doing your job for which the customer has already paid the establishment for, is self-entitlement. If you can't do your job without a bribe (let's call it for what it is, in this context) then I don't want to visit such establishments. In terms of the customer, it is nothing less than out and out extortion. You as an employee and the employer have then agreed that this is an appropriate way to treat your customers, well...

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                            • icon
                              nasch (profile), 20 Nov 2015 @ 5:41pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                              I guess it depends on what you mean by responsibility. It is something that is purely optional, so in that sense not a responsibility.

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                • icon
                  nasch (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 6:50am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...


                  But employer/employee relationships should not depend on any customer filling the gap.


                  Forgot to mention - your opinion of how things should be has no effect on the consequences of your actions. Those are determined by how things actually are.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2015 @ 10:22am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                    Forgot to mention - your opinion of how things should be has no effect on the consequences of your actions. Those are determined by how things actually are.
                    The consequences of your actions are that you do not have enough wages from your work as a server. That is your consequences for your choices, not the responsibility of someone else not associated with your choices (that is - the customer).

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                    • icon
                      ottermaton (profile), 18 Nov 2015 @ 2:09pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                      But the choice you make to go to a restaurant where tipping is expected ... noooooo, you have no responsibility for the choice you made, do you? You poor little thing. You just HAVE to go to restaurant that allows you to make a gigantic ass of yourself.

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                      • identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 18 Nov 2015 @ 4:25pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                        For starters, I don't go to restaurants where tipping is expected. For finishers, all I keep hearing from you and nasch is a continual whine about how you are owed something by someone who owes you nothing because you have made a specific choice.

                        I hear enough of this kind of rubbish from too many people today. If you have a problem with something, do something constructive instead of bemoaning the situation. Get out and become an activist if nothing else. Speak up for changed conditions, if nothing else. Become a squeaky wheel. But don't blame the customer for your lack when it is just between you and your employer.

                        This excuse of there is no other work is bogus. If other people can change their circumstances through a bit of hard work and changing their attitude, then so can you as a server. There are lots of rubbish jobs, but there are also many situations where you can do something different. Go mow lawns, sweep the streets, do some charitable work, clean yards, get educated, work on farm, in a warehouse, as cleaner.

                        You appear to have a mindset that is defeatist, that is looking at the negative side of things. Even as a server, your attitude can make a huge difference in your situation. By going above and beyond, it increases the reputation of your establishment. You can draw in more and more customers who want the service. You become more valuable to the establishment and your ability to negotiate a wage increase. Just get off your backside and do something about your circumstances. This is applicable to anyone and anyone can do this. Stop expecting non-party people to bail you out. Man up and do something about it. Take responsibility for your choices and decisions.

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                        • icon
                          ottermaton (profile), 19 Nov 2015 @ 7:42am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                          You're funny. You've convinced yourself that nasch and I are both servers, when I haven't been for quite some time and I highly, highly doubt that nasch is either. Your assumptions void of fact prove how delusional you are.

                          When I was a server it was the perfect job -- flexible schedule, cash in hand every day, etc. It worked for me at the time, in the same way that it works for many, many other people at certain times in their lives, eg: going to school.

                          It's easy to see you've never had to deal with pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, that you have been born into a position of privilege and deluded yourself you've earned what you have. If you hadn't you would have empathy for people who are struggling rather than your condescending "better yourself" attitude. Hasn't it ever occurred to you that many -- most, I'd say -- people who are servers are trying to better themselves? Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't be so eager to screw them. Otherwise you'd be happy to give them a hand.

                          I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.

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                          • identicon
                            Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2015 @ 9:45pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            You're funny. You've convinced yourself that nasch and I are both servers, when I haven't been for quite some time and I highly, highly doubt that nasch is either. Your assumptions void of fact prove how delusional you are.
                            Actually, I have not made any such assumption. You have stood in defence of the position of the server and his/her wage agreement so I have argued from the perspective that this is none of my responsibility. I don't care what you actually do. You could be an employer of such staff and I don't care. That makes no difference to the argument in question.
                            It's easy to see you've never had to deal with pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, that you have been born into a position of privilege and deluded yourself you've earned what you have. If you hadn't you would have empathy for people who are struggling rather than your condescending "better yourself" attitude.
                            Now who is making assumptions? Interesting. Position of privilege - hmm. Within the extended family, we have paupers, blue collar, white collar, professional, non-professional, unemployed, unemployable, millionaires, etc. But the characteristic of the family is that we were/are expected to get off our backsides and work and face the future optimistically. Don't go asking for handouts. Though the funny thing is that my father who was both the youngest and the one who had least help from the family was the one who gave of his time and resources to the rest of the family. It takes a lot of hard work and saving carefully to get where we are now. Taking and making opportunities as we go. I've been both unemployed and employed. I have worked in service industries and in professional businesses. I have work in timber yards as a roustabout, storeman and packer, painter, cleaner, taxi-driver. I have had little to live and much to live on.

                            I have given much away when the need for it for others is greater than my need to keep it. But a characteristic of many who cry poor is that they actually have enough if they were actually careful with what they have. But many spend their income on non-essentials, instead of being careful and saving. Sometimes that can be difficult, but it is doable. We even have businesses here that help people learn how to manage their finances and stop sinking into the mire of ever increasing debt.
                            Hasn't it ever occurred to you that many -- most, I'd say -- people who are servers are trying to better themselves? Of course not, otherwise you wouldn't be so eager to screw them. Otherwise you'd be happy to give them a hand.
                            If they have made a choice to work a particular way for a particular set of conditions, that is still their choice. I in no way "screw" them over for not living up to their expectations over something I have never agreed to. It isn't my concern when you (as in your position) consider that I owe someone else a living when they have made their choice with no recourse to me.

                            If they come to me for help, then I will see what I can do - this doesn't mean money being handed over. It may mean other more practical help. But their employment arrangements are theirs alone, not mine. My advice to them would be the same as I have said previously, look for a better paying job somewhere else. I give the same advice to my own children. I do help them consider options. But their choice of employment is theirs and not mine and the consequences thereof are theirs not mine.

                            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                            • icon
                              ottermaton (profile), 22 Nov 2015 @ 5:20pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                              I can't believe I missed this earlier ...

                              Now who is making assumptions?

                              Well, I am. Of course. But it's not like you aren't making it completely obvious, are you? To illustrate ...

                              Within the extended family, we have ...

                              [Emphasis mine] So, even you are not talking about yourself. Or even your direct family:

                              Though the funny thing is that my father ...

                              Yea, that is funny that it wasn't any of your direct family members or more importanty, YOU that had to pull themselves up. It was some of your relatives that were paupers but were still expected to "face the future optimistically".

                              I guess you told them to "keep a stiff upper lip."

                              It takes a lot of hard work and saving carefully

                              How in hell do you expect someone to be able to "save carefully" if their income is below their needs?

                              to get where we are now.

                              At last, you've revealed yourself. Where "you are now" is a place that you have deluded yourself into thinking you've earned, while at the same time you admit that your daddy handed it to you.

                              I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.

                              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                              • identicon
                                Anonymous Coward, 22 Nov 2015 @ 11:59pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                It's easy to see you've never had to deal with pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, that you have been born into a position of privilege and deluded yourself you've earned what you have. If you hadn't you would have empathy for people who are struggling rather than your condescending "better yourself" attitude.
                                [Emphasis mine] So, even you are not talking about yourself. Or even your direct family:
                                You made the assumption that I was born into privilege. My father is a member of my immediate family, I am his son.
                                Yea, that is funny that it wasn't any of your direct family members or more importanty, YOU that had to pull themselves up. It was some of your relatives that were paupers but were still expected to "face the future optimistically".
                                You have made more erroneous assumptions. I don't have to give you chapter and verse of my family (just as you don't), so be very careful of what you assume. Otherwise, you come across as a mealy-mouth, "woe is me" whinger that feels he is owed a living by every one else (the best example I know of this is a dead fellow by the name of Karl Marx).

                                Family helps family, but the rule number one is be extremely careful giving someone money, they will more likely than not waste what you give them. It is better to give a food parcel or even pay a specific bill if really necessary.

                                How in hell do you expect someone to be able to "save carefully" if their income is below their needs?
                                You very often find out what people really want when you fill a specific need (like food or fuel) instead of giving money. If they respond with appreciation then you have found the need. If they respond negatively, then you have found the lie and the want, not the need. Years ago now, a fellow came looking for the local pastor wanting to get some money for fuel. Since the pastor was leading the meeting, I said to the fellow (when I found what he "needed"), to come with me. I went home and grabbed my gerry can full of fuel and took it to his place and put it in his car. His reaction said it all, no words of thanks, no words at all (I think he was a bit nonplussed over my actions), but his expression was of disgruntlement that he didn't get any cash. Never saw him again. Was the fuel I used wasted, no. Yes, I had to replace it out of my budget, but it made a point that if you want help don't expect money.

                                We provide access to food and other things (including manual help), not money. When I have been in need, this has been the great blessing, when I have had food put on my plate or fuel put in my vehicle or a transport ticket or a yard mowed.

                                Over the years, I have found that many crying poor are not as poor as they think. They focus their income on pleasures like drinks and smokes and drugs and entertainment and gambling before they focus on what actually needs to be done.

                                So, when you claim that servers are a disadvantaged group of people, you had better lay out all of their financial situation for full review before you start calling people who don't leave tips as low-life self-entitled pricks.
                                At last, you've revealed yourself. Where "you are now" is a place that you have deluded yourself into thinking you've earned, while at the same time you admit that your daddy handed it to you.
                                The gifts my father has handed me have include self-reliance, strong work ethic, care for those in actual need, generosity and other things that mean I can live life no matter what the circumstances. My father has been (all his life) a blue collar worker. He grew all his own vegetables and taught each of us to do the same. He raised his own chooks and ducks for meat and eggs and taught us to do the same. He has done most of the repairs around the small house he stills live in. He did most of the maintenance on the family car. He rode a bike to work every day (one of the old fix wheelers). And if that wasn't in good repair, he worked to work.

                                Where I am now, has been a combination of taking some chances and opportunities throughout the decades, including moving (in stages) across the country from north to south, following work opportunities. Whether I have been employed or not employed, I have made sure that I find a way to safely and legally put food on my family's table. If I have had to get into debt, then so be it, I also make every effort to clear as soon as possible. I don't have credit cards, I gave those up years ago. I am about to shortly butcher a couple of sheep, that I had the blessing of getting for free, because the previous owners didn't want them anymore. So that puts free meat on the table.

                                I may have a couple of acres, because I chose to move out of the city to the country (to a little country town of 300 people) where it was possible to afford this (at a time when it was cheap) and even that was barely within my budget then. The land around me is now such a price, that I could never afford to purchase the land let alone a house. Sure, there has been opportunities that have come my way, but I had to take the risk to follow a path. To get there though took living frugally and saving hard.

                                How many of these servers spend money on takeaway, on cigarettes, on drinks (including bottled water) and sweets of any kind, on all those unnecessary pleasures, on buying the latest gadgets, games, tattoos, fashion items, etc?

                                In fact, how much do you spend on such non-consequential items that would be better saved? I go out and collect free pallets for firewood and construction material. It is amazing how many nails you can save when breaking apart pallets. Do you grow your own herbs on your balcony or back yard?

                                Do you mow your lawns or do you get someone in to do it for you? Do you replace your tap washers yourself or do you get in a plumber? Do you pay a hair-dresser to cut your hair or do you get a friend to cut it for free?

                                I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.
                                You agreed to do a job and then whinge about it when your self-entitlement is not recognised by someone else? Go figure!

                                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                          • identicon
                            Anonymous Coward, 19 Nov 2015 @ 11:18pm

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                            I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.
                            The only self-entitlement here is the expectation that the employer/employee agreement is supposed to be adhered to by the customer (who is not a part of it - irrespective of cultural expectations). Your choice and the consequences thereof are yours and not a third party.

                            I have dealt with many different kinds of people over the years in a service environment and it was always my responsibility to give them my best, irrespective of their response. My remuneration was not dependent on them, it was dependent on my employer and the circumstances of my employment. I have worked in purely commission jobs and this can be very hard to make a living. But I was still expected to treat all the customers with respect and care. On occasions, I received a tip, other times it was just thanks, and many other times nothing. But I was employed to look after the customers to the best of my ability. I know from my own experience and from others like me that there were many who didn't treat the customer well and this ended up reflecting on me, which meant I had to work even harder to look after the customer.

                            When it got to the point of not paying enough to live on, which it did, I left and found other work.

                            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                            • icon
                              ottermaton (profile), 20 Nov 2015 @ 6:11am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                              I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.

                              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                              • identicon
                                Anonymous Coward, 20 Nov 2015 @ 3:38pm

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                Repeating the same insult doesn't make you any more correct.

                                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                • icon
                                  ottermaton (profile), 22 Nov 2015 @ 4:37pm

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                  Repeating the same insult doesn't make you any more correct.

                                  Maybe not, but it's still true: you are a self-entitled prick.

                                  Obv, you come from a "culture" that doesn't have and/or believe in tipping. Fair enough. But in your self-entitlement you think it's ok and, moreover, justified to judge and condemn "cultures" that do.

                                  Do you also tell Japanese people that their tradition of bowing is wrong? That's what a self-entitled prick like you would do.

                                  Do you also tell Russians that their custom of having a shot of vodka at business meetings is wrong? That's What a self-entitled prick like you would do.

                                  Do you tell Norweigans that they're wrong for eating a burger with a knife and fork? That's what a self-entitled prick like you would do.

                                  You view the world through the myopia of your own cultural experience and have the temerity to apply that to everyone. Here's a news flash: not all cultures will kowtow to your own experience.

                                  And here's the important part: when you're in a different culture respect the customs of that culture. Your life experience hasn't taught you anything that hasn't occurred to a million, billion, zillion people before. YOU ARE NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE

                                  In closing, I will repeat this entirely correct statement:

                                  I'm just glad that during my time as a server it was few and far between that I had to deal with self-entitled pricks like you.

                                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                  • identicon
                                    Anonymous Coward, 23 Nov 2015 @ 1:52am

                                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                    What do we call such as you, hmm oh yes. An angry young man - it's another name for a fool.

                                    Any society that has the basic attitude of having to be bribed to do a job (not a wage or pay) but a bribe when you are acting as the representative of an organisation is somewhat deficient and amoral.

                                    It is widely recognised that certain cultures require bribery (that extra payment) to do business. It is also recognised that such cultures are dangerous in various ways.

                                    Are you saying that you want your society to be classified as a corrupt society and dangerous? If so, just keep going.

                                    I have friends and acquaintances from many different cultures. I may not agree with how they may do some things, but it really doesn't matter.

                                    The concept for tipping is, as far as I am concerned, about giving an appropriate gift for service above and beyond the call of duty, exceeding the expectations of the job. But to just tip for just doing your job, that is actually not reasonable. It is effectively saying that you not only cannot do you job properly but that you expect a bribe to just get off your posterior.

                                    That is not a cultural thing, that is a self-entitlement thing. It is heading towards the concept that slavery is an appropriate employment methodology. Many of the cultures that have such a concept of bribery are also full of mistreatment of people as a part of its cultural renderings.

                                    Try getting out of your small-minded country and see the world and you'll have your eyes opened. Try India for example, the untouchables live in an environment that you couldn't comprehend. However, I have had a small part in helping various families (as untouchables) to break out of that poverty cycle by providing the necessary vehicles that allow them to make a better life. This then allows their children to not face the same economic problems that their parents have had to endure.

                                    My daughter was part of a team that has travelled into the pacific islands to build houses (free of charge) for people there. It took a lot of saving to do so. Tell me what have you done in your self-entitlement of expecting customers to tip you for doing your job under the employment conditions you chose without recourse to your future customers. Hmm. How many people do you help in a actual meaningful way every week? Providing food parcels (out of your own means), mowing lawns, cleaning houses, caring for the elderly? Go on, tell me.

                                    I am of the belief that tipping is for exemplary service - above and beyond, if you as the customer think it appropriate. I have far better things to spend my resources on than tipping just because a server expects it because it is part of their employment agreement.

                                    Get a life, get off your high horse, grow up and do something useful for mankind. Better still do something useful for your neighbours.

                                    I am but one very small, insignificant man. There are many who do and accomplish much more than I do or will. Why don't you try and make a difference around you instead of whinging about tips and calling customers low-life self-entitled pricks for not leaving tips?

                                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                    • icon
                                      ottermaton (profile), 23 Nov 2015 @ 12:20pm

                                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                      I am but one very small, insignificant man ...

                                      with a HUGE sense of self-entitlement ... wait, maybe that's not it, maybe it's actually your enormous air of superiority ... that causes you to behave like a prick.

                                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                                      • identicon
                                        Anonymous Coward, 23 Nov 2015 @ 5:46pm

                                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

                                        Truly, if you cannot see why tips are not a given but a possible reward or recognition for exemplary service then all I can say is that there is a sadness for this. A sadness that your society is willing to justify treating employees as less than they are worth. A sadness that you are willing to move the responsibility of fair pay from employer to customer. A sadness that such an attitude gives rise to the real problem of treating one another as fodder to be taken advantage of.

                                        The whole concept has a far reaching effect on society as a whole and lessens society as a whole. In reality, it is no different to people buying politicians for the laws that will be made on their behalf.

                                        Even your attempts at justifying the attitude of considering customers as self-entitled low-lifes for not leaving tips says a great deal about the negative impact that these kinds of employment agreements bring forth.

                                        My initial reaction to your last comment was wry laughter at the attitude displayed by yourself, at the contempt you willingly display for all to see against those who have a very different world view. But on consideration, that disappeared into a deep sadness that you are locked into a mindset that you don't seem to be able to get out of. A mindset that, in the long run, will only inhibit your ability to help others.

                                        The underlying societal problem with expected tipping is that the responsibility of paying a fair days wage for a fair days work is with the employer, not anyone else. If you and others like you, keep supporting the unfair wage for a fair days work concept, then this practise will continue to bring harm to your society. It is a symptom of a much larger problem that will have ongoing detrimental effects on the current and future generations.

                                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2015 @ 9:35pm

        Re: Re: Traditionaly here...

        Much as you Yanks go on and on about your system, here at least, the national minimum hourly wage is $17.29. Yes I know there are places that pay less, but when caught get into big trouble.

        Slave labour is not unknown but tends to be dealt with by the authorities when brought to the fore.

        Additionally, the business doesn't get involved in accounting for tips against wages and salaries, unless the business directly profits or there are contractors involved. It still doesn't effect normal full-time or part-time employees. It is up to the employee to deal with this at tax time.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    Max (profile), 14 Nov 2015 @ 5:17am

    I can assure you...

    ...tipping is quite alive and well in Europe - at least in Eastern Europe it certainly is. And not as an exceptional reward either - it's simply expected by both parties to occur, you're simply more generous if you are pleased...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 14 Nov 2015 @ 5:49am

    The major problem with tips is who gets the tip?
    The restaurant or the waiter?

    In many restaurants in this location if the tip is made by a credit/ debit card the restaurant gets the tip while payment in cash goes to the waiter.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Andrew D. Todd, 14 Nov 2015 @ 7:46am

    For The Benefit of the Owner.

    The main beneficiary of abolishing tipping is going to be the restaurant owner and/or the landlord. The restaurant owner has control of the kitchen in ways that he doesn't have control of the dining room, and can be expected, with a certain lag of time, to adopt whatever machines and systems are developed for fast food. He has access to all the kinds of frozen and canned foods you find in the supermarket, only in larger packages. Obviously, it is harder to do that kind of thing in the dining room, because the diners might object. The restaurant owner reaches a point where he regards it as unacceptable for the wait-staff to take 15%-20% of the total revenue, and devises schemes to encroach on the tips, and push the wait-staff's cut down to 5%, within fast-food norms.

    My rule of thumb for tipping is 20% for full family restaurant service (eg. Howard Johnson's), 10% for where I order and pay at a counter, and they bring the food out to me, and 5% where they do nothing more than bus the table. I leave the tip, _in cash_ among the used dishes. If I am expected to bus my own dishes, I don't give a tip, nor do I tip for carry-out. I regard tip jars as presumptively absurd, a method of claiming tips when the absolute minimum obligation for a tip hasn't been met.

    Likewise, there are various e-tipping arrangements which have been proposed from time to time for upscale fast-food restaurants, where you order and pay at at a terminal (or on an Ipad), and get your food at a window, and a tip automatically gets added to your bill, and I reject those as absurd. There seems to be a kind of presumption that the tip ought to outlive the waitress, and be paid to a machine, and I simply don't regard that as a tenable idea.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    John Fenderson (profile), 14 Nov 2015 @ 9:53am

    "Hospitality included"

    I haven't encountered a restaurant with this policy yet (excepting for the one that automatically charge gratuities for large groups), but if I did, that would be a restaurant that I would not go to a second time.

    Automatically charging for tips turns it into something that isn't a tip at all -- it's just a garden variety price increase. A tip is an interaction directly between me and the people who provided the service to me. The business itself needs to stay out of it.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Harald K, 16 Nov 2015 @ 12:24am

      Re: "Hospitality included"

      > A tip is an interaction directly between me and the people who provided the service to me.

      What kind of interaction? Is it an interaction between equals?

      If tips is suitable for use between social equals, why don't your doctor or lawyer work for tips? Surely you'd like to incentivise good service there as well?

      Another matter is that whether you want to or not, the interaction isn't just between you and your servant. In all monetary transactions there is always the regulatory party, the one you appeal to if someone doesn't pay or deliver what was paid for. In many states in the US, I understand that the regulatory party sees tips as wages in some ways, so that servers can be paid correspondingly below minimum wage.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 16 Nov 2015 @ 10:37am

      Re: "Hospitality included"

      Did you read the articles? It straight up *is* a price increase, not an additional line item. It's not pretending to be one thing and actually being another. It's the restaurant owner saying "Hey, we need money to pay ALL of our staff fairly, not just the front"

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        nasch (profile), 16 Nov 2015 @ 11:12am

        Re: Re: "Hospitality included"

        It straight up *is* a price increase, not an additional line item.

        You're saying that additional line item on the bill is not an additional line item, but a price increase? Hm...

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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