Did Homeland Security Seize... And Then Unseize... A Dynamic DNS Domain?

from the cluelessness-knows-no-bounds dept

Over the weekend, we started getting a bunch of reports from folks claiming that the dynamic DNS service afraid.org had been seized in the latest DHS/ICE domain seizures, and that all of the sites associated with afraid.org had been replaced with a notice that they had been seized over child porn claims. The main site involved was mooo.com. If you're unfamiliar with the way these dynamic DNS services work, they basically let you put a permanent URL, often using a subdomain like putsomesubdomainhere.mooo.com, and then you point it at whatever machine is actually hosting your content. For some folks and some projects, it's easier than getting your own full URL. But, of course, as a service, it can point to just about any kind of content. Remember, afraid isn't hosting any of this stuff. It's basically just acting as a directory.

Despite multiple reports, and various blog posts from individuals really pissed off that ICE had accused them of trafficking in child porn, we didn't write about it earlier for a few reasons. First off, with each of the past few ICE seizures, various hucksters have claimed that their domains were seized as well, and it later turns out to not be true at all. In the last round, I ended up talking with a guy who claimed his domain was seized for a few days, before realizing he was full of it. Second, afraid.org and mooo.com came back online a day and a half later, with the admin claiming that the domain was "suspended at the registrar level", but not mentioning DHS/ICE at all. I emailed afraid.org's admin asking him for details a few days ago, and heard absolutely nothing in response.

So despite more and more people bringing it up in our comments, I was ready to let it drop. However, late yesterday, Homeland Security and ICE did officially announced more domain seizures, but these were different than the last four rounds we've spoken about -- which were a part of "Operation in Our Sites," and was focused on IP violations. Instead, this is called "Operation Protect Our Children," and was focused on child porn. Yes, Homeland Security is pulling out the old "protect the children!" line to defend domain seizures.

Unlike the "In Our Sites" announcements, however, with "Protect Our Children," DHS didn't actually name the domains. So, right now I'm just not sure if mooo.com was really seized... and then given back (which would be a surprise, if true). Since I'm at a dead end in the normal channels, I figured I'd just put the story out here, and see if we can dig up any proof either way. Was mooo.com really seized as part of this program... and if so, was it really given back? If so, why? Did ICE realize that seizing a dynamic DNS service that links to a ton of perfectly legitimate content would clearly push it over the line on prior restraint? Remember, nearly all of the "prior restraint" cases we've discussed as examples of why the domain seizures are unconstitutional involve pornographic materials. And, one of the counterpoints that people have argued is that those rulings only apply to porn, but not copyright (no one has a good explanation of why that would be, but we'll leave that aside).

So, what happened here? Did DHS/ICE demonstrate even more technical cluelessness in seizing a dynamic DNS directory that linked to tons of perfectly legit content, and then realize its mistake and give it back? Or were the reports of mooo.com's seizure overblown? Or did something else happen altogether?


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 7:20am

    They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

     

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  2.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:06am

    The seizure notice server has a wildcard in place that shows the copyright seizure notice for any non-seized domain that points to it. But if you point mooo.com to it, you see a child porn seizure notice.

    Adding these to your HOSTS file
    74.81.170.110 mooo.com
    74.81.170.110 techdirt.com

    Produces the following
    http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/5999/icepak.jpg

     

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  3.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:39am

    Wow

    If true, that's some serious collateral damage and it's hard to believe they will not get at least some lawsuits from the site owners impacted.

    It will also be an interesting statistic. Does anyone have a list of all of the domains and sub-domains they have taken down and kept down? We can assume they support keeping these offline, but it would be pretty surprising if the number of websites they claim are causing harm is equal to even 1% of the websites they have taken down now.

     

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  4.  
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    fogbugzd (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:47am

    Relative importance

    >>And, one of the counterpoints that people have argued is that those rulings only apply to porn, but not copyright (no one has a good explanation of why that would be, but we'll leave that aside).

    That should be obvious to anyone who reads here regularly. The industry views copyright infringement as a much more serious crime than child porn, so IP laws should abide by a lower standard and can ignore pesky issues like prior restraint and the First and Fourth Amendments. All authoritarians know that child porn serves a useful purpose -- it allows all sorts of government actions to have the excuse that we are just protecting the children. If child porn went away you would destroy innumerable grandstands and questionable power grabs that hide behind "We must protect the children" while actually doing nothing that effectively protects the children.

     

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  5.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:48am

    Instead, this is called "Operation Protect Our Children," and was focused on child porn. Yes, Homeland Security is pulling out the old "protect the children!" line to defend domain seizures.

    Why the derision? Do you not think that sites dealing in child porn should be taken down? We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?

     

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  6.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:53am

    Not all porn is legal free speech. You can only have prior restraint on protected speech, not on unprotected speech. Child porn is "speech" which is not protected by the first amendment. So prior restraint would not apply.

    Even if there is some protected speech, the courts long since ruled that prior restraint doesn't apply where there is a lot of unprotected or illegal speech / actions.

     

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  7.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:54am

    Re:

    Because "for the children" is the root password to the constitution. A lot of "average Joes" seeing basic rights trampled in the name of protecting children draw the conclusion that it's a good thing that law enforcement has that shortcut around the law. Once such abuses are seen as acceptable, they're easier to abuse. It has nothing to do with loving child molesters. Nice straw man.

     

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  8.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:55am

    Re:

    No, that's not what he said.

     

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  9.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:56am

    One quick question ....

    The domain seizure of infringing web sites isn't with in the charter of ICE and HomeSec. They need for this to be criminal not civil infringement.

    Now the question ...

    Is seizing porn, of what ever sort, with in the charter for ICE-DHS in any way shape or form?

     

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  10.  
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    coldbrew, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:57am

    RE: unbelievable

    "Operation Protect Our Children"

    ???

    The name they have given this operation is truly unbelievable. These people need to stop watching so many of those Hollywood movies as they are clearly melting their brains.

    Beyond that, temporarily impeding the dissemination of this filth does not prevent it from happening in the first place. These people need to get out from their desks and do some real investigating. Even 'dawg the bounty hunter' can handle that. If these hacks can't be bothered, they need to be replaced.

     

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  11.  
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    cc (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 8:57am

    Well, I've been doing some "investigating" myself, and I strongly suspect it must be true.

    If you'd looked yesterday, the Google cache of a bunch of mooo subdomains had the ICE seizure graphic on.

    Right now, the top Google result for "mooo.com" brings this up:

    http://newworld.mooo.com/

    which funnily enough leads to a Wikileaks mirror. The Google cache still shows a placeholder for the ICE graphic.

     

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  12.  
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    cc (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:00am

    Re:

    You don't have to support child molesters or piracy to not support internet censorship.

     

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  13.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:01am

    Re:

    The suggestion is that they have switched the name of their operation but continue to target the same kind of sites. That may not be the case (I have not seen the latest list), but it is a strategy that has been used by law enforcement agencies in the past, so it is not unlikely to be the case here.


    "do you love child molesters too"

    And that is the exact argument that politicians and law enforcement agencies make. You know it is untrue, but you throw it out there to make it impossible for Mike to defend himself. Even if he says his point is to defend free speech, you have linked any response to liking child molesters.

    At times, you have intelligent and thoughtful responses. This took you down another notch (at least in my book) and makes you sound like a 6 year old on the playground "oh yeah - and you're ugly". Respond with something intelligent next time.

     

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  14.  
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    coldbrew, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:03am

    Re:

    [...]but do you love child molesters too?

    This is so disingenuous. I don't even know what to tell you. If you believe that for a second, you are dumb; and I don't think you are anything more than opportunistic.

    If you are going to claim some sort of moral high ground in any discussion, it is best not to make such outrageous claims.

     

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  15.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:05am

    Re:

    Absolutely.

    However, if the allegations are true, in taking down 10 domains, they shut down 84,000 websites that were full of perfectly legal free speech. Ouch. They threw out the entire maternity ward with the bath water on this one.

    Even if it was a mistake, it suggests that they have done little to understand the kinds of sites they are targeting.

     

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  16.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:08am

    Re: Re:

    The problem of dynamic DNS sites is that they have no idea what they are allowing on their second level domain. mooo.com is a single company (or individual) and they bear responsiblity for what is on their domain.

    If I find childporn on something.mooo.com and the only control is shutting off mooo.com, then that is what happens. Only the mooo.com people can control what is on their third level.

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:11am

    Re:

    [i]Why the derision? Do you not think that sites dealing in child porn should be taken down? We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?[/i]

    For some reason, I am not surprised by AJ's post.

     

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  18.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:14am

    Re:

    Nice way of destroying any reasonable debate.

    Your "talk" reminds me of the abortion debate. How do you suddenly turn everything around to make the "other side" look like terrible monsters?

    Easy: Call one side "Pro-Life", and the other side "Pro-Choice". It's impossible to choose a side, because the implication is that you are either a murderer or a fascist.

    End result: People shut up, they are too afraid to take sides and become much easier to manipulate. Mission accomplished.

    You being a lawyer in training know very well how this works.

     

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  19.  
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    cc (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:15am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Wrong. If you find child porn on something.mooo.com, you find the host of the content, find who put up that content and TAKE THEM OFF THE STREETS.

    Hiding the problem by taking some websites off the internet does not solve the problem. The problem is that there are people who abuse children, so track THEM down. In fact, that they're putting stuff up on the internet gives the police new ways to find out who they are!

     

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  20.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:15am

    Re: Re: Re:

    First, I have used them and they actually do monitor the sub-domain content, respond to complaints, and shut down sub-domains that are doing something nefarious. So, if ICE had sites they wanted to take down, they could have contacted mooo.com and had them pulled - assuming they were doing something illegal.

    More importantly, are you mental? In the US, the CDA safe harbors protect a service provider from being held responsible for content they did not put on their sites.

    This was not just a website that was shut down, it was a service provider. Please explain the difference between shutting down mooo.com and shutting down AT&T?

    Again, I am assuming the allegations are true. If they are, ICE turned back on all of the sites - does that not sound like admitting a mistake.

     

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  21.  
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    PRMan, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:18am

    Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    Interesting quote from the article:

    "Even at the time of writing people can still replicate the effect by adding “74.81.170.110 mooo.com” to their hosts file as the authorities have not dropped the domain pointer yet."

    Um, when you edit your hosts file, you're making your own domain pointer.

    And they like to criticize judges for not understanding the internet.

     

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  22.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:19am

    Re: Re:

    Because "for the children" is the root password to the constitution. A lot of "average Joes" seeing basic rights trampled in the name of protecting children draw the conclusion that it's a good thing that law enforcement has that shortcut around the law. Once such abuses are seen as acceptable, they're easier to abuse. It has nothing to do with loving child molesters. Nice straw man.

    Mike's derision assumes that the "for the children" argument was just pretext. What if they were actually targeting child porn?

    It seems to me that what happened here is that certain subdomains were found to have child porn, and somehow the entire domain name was taken down instead of the subdomains. We don't know why that happened, but it's apparent that the mistake was quickly reversed.

     

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  23.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:20am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, and by your rationale, is it not much more expedient to simply shut down the entire .com TLD - or the entire internet?

    Wait - the computers need electricity - shut that off - then even the ones not on the internet will go down. Oh - batter backups and generators? Hmm...Well, I suppose if nobody had eyes...

     

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  24.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:20am

    Re:

    Aha. Makes more sense now.

    ICE is "protecting the children" from being exposed to Wikileaks.

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:22am

    Re: Re: Re:

    ICE's m.o. is taking domain names and not telling anyone about it besides Verisign. They could have gathered useful information from the dynamic dns site's owner about who was using a specific account, their IP addresses used, and then do real investigation from there. Instead they did a blanket shutdown of the site without telling anyone and added the warning.

    I think the warning messages they are putting up before anyone is convicted is a liability to the government and taxpayers if they put it on an innocent website. Someone can sue for defamation. If they're seizing domains with a court order then they could just as easily put nothing on the site at all.

     

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  26.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:22am

    Re: Re:

    I don't get it. What evidence is there that this new operation is not in fact targeting child porn? Mike's derision assumes that it's all pretext.

     

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  27.  
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    Chris-Mouse (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:22am

    Re:

    Why the derision? Do you not think that sites dealing in child porn should be taken down?
    How many of these web sites were taken down as a result of this action? None, the site are still there and will be up with new domain names within hours.
    How much of the child pornography has been destroyed? None. It's all still on the original servers and you can still get to it if you know the IP address of the server.
    How many child abusers have been arrested and will face trial as a result of the seizures? None. The seizures merely give the abusers a heads up that the police are after them and it's time to disappear.
    How much damage has been done to thousands of innocent companies and individuals publicly accused of distributing child pornography? Massive amounts. Simply being accused of being involved in child pornography is enough to destroy reputations. I really do hope the owners of the web sites involved sue not only ICE, but also the individuals involved in such reckless political grandstanding.

     

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  28.  
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    :Lobo Santo (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:27am

    Re: Re: Re:

    By your argument, if a wealthy investor owns a company which manages apartment buildings, and in one apartment in one such apartment building a rape occurs, said wealthy investor should be held responsible... is that right?

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, you don't seem to understand the system.

    On a tld, the registrar only controls the second level, aka the "mooo" in mooo.com. They don't control thirdlevel.mooo.com, that is only a DNS record, controlled by third parties. You don't have to register third levels to make them work.

    So the people who control the .com tld can turn on and off domains at the second level, but they cannot pick and choose third levels to deal with. It is an all or nothing choice. All of mooo.com goes, or all of it stays.

     

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  30.  
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    Johnny, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:35am

    Re:

    Homeland security should be able to bust into your home without a warrant pointing guns in your face, handcuff you in front of your scared wife and children and take you away while proclaiming loudly that they are searching for child porn. They should be able to seize and search your computer for child porn (and other stuff) whenever they want.

    If it turns out you are innocent, they'll release you in a few days.

    It's for the good of the children you know! If your are against this then you must be in favor of child porn.

    I just hope they'll come busting down your door soon...

     

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  31.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And the tenants of every other apartment should have signs put on their doors indicating that they're rapists.

     

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  32.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:35am

    Re: Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    Wrong.

    Add "74.81.170.110 mooo.com"
    Add "74.81.170.110 techdirt.com"

    techdirt.com shows the copyright warning
    mooo.com shows the child porn warning

    ICE is using a wildcard on any non-seized domain to show the copyright logo, not the child porn one.

     

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  33.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Nope, that isn't my argument at all.

    However, if a building owner knowing allows crack houses in his building, and helps them to build more secure doorways and put up signs to make sure people can find them, he would have some responsibility.

    As a domain owner, you are responsible for what happens in your establishment. Section 230 limits that liability, but does not negate responsiblity.

    If you saw "freemovies.google.com", would you think that Google was now in the free movie business? If you see "childpr0n.mooo.com" do you make the same assumption about mooo.com?

    I know that the Techdirt way is that nobody is responsible for anything ever, but still...

     

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  34.  
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    jackwagon (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:39am

    Re: Re: Re:

    No one is claiming they aren't targeting child porn. The assertion is that they're doing it badly and that due process and a working knowledge of the technology would greatly help the cause. Seizing a few domain names isn't helping reduce the amount of children being abused but it has caused damage to potentially thousands of innocent individuals and businesses, by linking them to child pornography.

     

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  35.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:41am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Everywhere there is government at work, Mike sees someone trying to strip him of his rights.

    But... BUT... CENSORSHIP!

     

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  36.  
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    fogbugzd (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:43am

    Re: Re: Re:

    >>Mike's derision assumes that the "for the children" argument was just pretext. What if they were actually targeting child porn?

    What was their priority? They protected music, movies, and live streams of the Superbowl before they got around to protecting the children.

    This looks like another "save the children" grandstand. Lots of press releases, and it does nothing to protect the children. The pornographers are still operating the sites under different names, and they are still exploiting the children they abuse just as much as they did before.

    No one around here is trying to defend child pornography, but there are a lot of us that are deeply suspicious of government actions that sound good and do nothing.

     

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  37.  
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    DS, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:43am

    Re:

    How about we publicly accuse you of trafficking child porn because of a whoopsie?

     

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  38.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:44am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Right - they have to go to mooo.com to shut down a sub-domain. So they have to go to the lowest-level service provider to shut down a smaller subset of the sites.

    That does not excuse going to the higher level provider. Again, that is not any different than shutting down the .com domain to pull a single site. Particularly when free speech is involved, the government is supposed to restrict their seizure to the smallest area possible around the illegal content - they used a bazooka to kill a fly.

    Has mooo.com refused to work with them, they may have had a case for expanding their net, but they were not even aware of the seizures until it happened. That's a pretty big problem and I'm not sure if you understand and just don't care or if you simply don't think it is a problem that the vast majority of the sites they shut down were completely legitimate.

     

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  39.  
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    AJ, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:45am

    Re:

    "We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?"

    Troll much?

     

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  40.  
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    Rich Fiscus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:45am

    Re:

    do you love child molesters too?

    Why? Did they seize some child molesters? Because all I read was about domain names and I'm pretty sure no child has ever been assaulted by a web address.

     

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  41.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:46am

    Re: Re: Re:

    What evidence is there that this new operation is not in fact targeting child porn? Mike's derision assumes that it's all pretext.

    Even if they are targeting child porn, the question still remains - do the ends justify the means?

    Bypassing due process, applying punishment prior to a conviction along with possible Constitutional conflicts concerning speech are STILL unacceptable, even when targeting child porn IMHO.

     

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  42.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    That is interesting. Even if a subdomain is being used for child porn, does that mean the entire domain name could be seized like this? That actually sounds like prior restraint to me.

     

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  43.  
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    mike allen (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:48am

    Re: Re: Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    I just ended up on a google search result page when i did this.

     

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  44.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:49am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "What evidence is there that this new operation is not in fact targeting child porn?"

    It's like spraying down a crowded sidewalk with machine gun fire to catch a rapist..... sure it may work, but is it worth all the innocent people caught in the crossfire?

     

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  45.  
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    jackwagon (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Could be? Yes. That's what happened. Should be? No. The folks in ICE and HS (and now you) have demonstrated they don't understand the technology they're legislating.

     

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  46.  
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    cc (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:51am

    If the first operation was "In our sites", the new one should have been called "In our children"!

     

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  47.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Ahh. Now I see what you are saying.

    You missed the point.

    Let's put it this way:

    Say childpr0n.mooo.com was a real site
    ICE shut down FuzzyBunnySlippers.mooo.com - a site run by someone completely different than childpr0n.mooo.com or mooo.com.

    Now, let's look at that from the apartment owner perspective. ICE raided an apartment building with 84,000 apartments and imprisoned EVENYONE for several days. They put up notices that their friends, coworkers, and family could see saying that THEY were child pornographers. Then, they released all of the people (did they still have some of the mooo.com sites offline at the end of this?).

    Yes, mooo.com was hurt badly by this - and that in itself is probably unforgivable, but I can see why you would defend that position. However, what about all of the COMPLETELY INNOCENT people caught in the net for 3-5 days?

     

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  48.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:53am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    Here's instructions on how to add to your HOSTS file on Windows, Linux and Mac OS:
    http://practice.chatserve.com/hosts.html

     

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  49.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:57am

    Re:

    Why the derision? Do you not think that sites dealing in child porn should be taken down? We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?

    I don't know how to respond to anything as obnoxiously, sickeningly disingenuous as this.

    I have tried multiple times to write out a response, but it is clear that you have no interest in a logical debate, given that others have already called you out on this and you continue to defend it.

    I am not just deeply offended, I am left saddened that anyone would stoop to such a level and think that it was an appropriate point of argument.

    And, worst of all, you don't even seem to realize that in making this very statement, you have proved the point that we were trying to make. When you hoist a banner such as that, you allow all sorts of other rights to be trampled, because anyone who points that out can then simply be falsely and libelously accused of "loving child molesters."

    It's the worst political trick in the book. It suggests deep corruption of the soul. Please, rethink this tactic of disingenuous debate. It is beneath any moral human being.

    A human being can be against overreaching attacks on free speech without "loving child molesters." In fact, we can be more against child molesting than you can possibly ever know. But we can be against child molesting by wanting the government to *actually go after and punish child molesters to the fullest extent of the law* rather than seizing domains pointing to tens of thousands of sites -- most of which had nothing whatsoever to do with child molesting.

    We can be absolutely against child molesting and hope that our government wouldn't just seize a bunch of domains -- most of which had nothing to do with child molesting -- but would actually go out and arrest those responsible for those horrifying and hideous acts.

    We can be absolutely against child molesting and worry about how the government can trample all sorts of rights, and then worry about how speaking out against such abuses will leave us open to little-minded, defamatory attacks about how we "love child molesters."

    That statement was uncalled for, ridiculous, disgusting, and beneath any sense of common decency.

    I can't begin to tell you how disgusted you have made me today. That you would take such a step, and not realize how offensive a statement is that you have made is just incredible.

     

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  50.  
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    jackwagon (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    and if they would have issued a takedown notice instead of seizing the domains, I'm confident mooo would have complied. If they don't comply, then seize the domains and issue fines. Problem solved. It's called due process.

     

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  51.  
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    Mike Masnick (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:00am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Mike's derision assumes that the "for the children" argument was just pretext. What if they were actually targeting child porn?

    I never said it was just a pretext and you know it.

    I said that seizing a lot more than just child porn allows small minded idiots to defend such things by accusing anyone who argues that it was overly broad of "loving child molesters."

    Know anyone who would stoop so low?

    Right. That's the point.

     

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  52.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    It goes in your hosts file.

    to find it

    start run "Cmd"
    cd\
    dir /s hosts

     

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  53.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If it were a sub-domain actually being run by the domain owner, I can see taking it down (again, some due process would have been nice), but this is a case of a service provider being shut down because some (tiny) percent of it's users have used the service for illicit purposes.

    It seems to violate safe harbors and prior restraint - and the fact that it is back up suggests that ICE actually realized it this time.

     

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  54.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:03am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: They actually shut down 84,000 sites for a couple days

    That's because you didn't add the IP addresses to your hosts file. Adding to your hosts file manually points "whatever.com" to an IP address of your choice. You can do a search on how to change your hosts file, it varies on what operating system you use. I just tried adding:

    74.81.170.110 thisdomaindoesntexistbutimtryingitanyway.com
    74.81.170.110 mooo.com

    The copyright warning is shown when I load the first domain, but mooo.com shows the child pornography warning. So ICE did target mooo.com for child pornography, and they did give it back. The fact they are using wildcards on everything else is the smoking gun. The seizure warrant against mooo.com is out there somewhere too...

     

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  55.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You do know that Google runs Blogger, which allows blogs to be hosted on Blogspot.com subdomains, so that "freemovies.blogspot.com" could exist quite easily?

    Then, watch in amazement as the authorities don't just shut down the blogspot domain, and instead, work with Google directly to take action against individual subdomains.

     

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  56.  
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    Michael, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh, and I made this point a bit further down in the comments.

    I think mooo.com should have been protected as a service provider, but it is really the completely innocent sites that use mooo.com sub-domains that really got short-ended on this one. 84,000 websites were shut down because they shared a domain with a site that may (sometime in the future) be prosecuted for trafficing child pornography.

    The DEA cannot seize my house because my neighbor is selling drugs.

     

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  57.  
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    J.J. (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:08am

    Re:

    Why the derision? Do you not think that sites dealing in child porn should be taken down? We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?

    This is NOT taking the sites down, this is the equivalent of taking down the house number on a known crackhouse - the house is still there.
    But hey, if you'd rather hide child molesters than deal with them then ... sure ... whatever floats your boat.

     

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  58.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:08am

    Re:

    Graphical explanation of the thread above this :P

     

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  59.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    It is prior restraint on a huge scale 84,000 sites.

     

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  60.  
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    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:12am

    Re: Re:

    Don't be such a baby.

    You didn't explain why you said this: "Yes, Homeland Security is pulling out the old "protect the children!" line to defend domain seizures."

    How do you know that they aren't in fact trying to protect the children?

     

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  61.  
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    Hephaestus (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:12am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "It seems to violate safe harbors and prior restraint - and the fact that it is back up suggests that ICE actually realized it this time."

    They probably realized it on all the previously seized sites also. But knew they could get away with it because it would never make it to the evening news.

     

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  62.  
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    J.J. (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:19am

    Re: Re: Re:

    If they were they'd trace traffic to the sites, bust down doors and apprehend pedos ... not block a domain name followed by some flexing and political grandstanding.

     

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  63.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:28am

    Re: Re: Re:

    "Don't be such a baby."

    Seriously? How about don't be such a damned tool. You made a completely ridiculous statement/question insinuating that Mike and those that think that overreaching in the name of protecting children love child molestors. It was a retarded thing to write. Despite the fact that you usually at least have some basis in law/fact to back up at least a portion of what you say, this was uncalled for and illustrated perfectly WHY ICE is trotting this explanation out. It's the same reason behind the name for the Patriot Act. I thought you were smart. I see that I was wrong. What you wrote was reprehensible, accusing support for the most egregious of crimes. Seriously, get fucked....

    "You didn't explain why you said this: "Yes, Homeland Security is pulling out the old "protect the children!" line to defend domain seizures.""

    Do you not understand basic English? Or is it the concept of time that eludes you? No one said it was a pretext. You even wrote it out in your quoted sentence. It's a DEFENSE. They overeached, caught a bunch of sites that were apparently NOT involved in child porn, and then defended it by blanketing themselves with the all-trumping "for the children" defense. AND YOU PLAYED INTO IT when you made your mindless accusation.

    "How do you know that they aren't in fact trying to protect the children?"

    Sigh, IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO. What they did was wrong. It'd be like if they caught an ACTUAL child molester at a local McDonalds and then went in, arresed everyone in the building, and threw them in jail. Then, when questioned why they did so, they said they were trying to protect the children. And maybe they were. BUT THEY STILL THREW INNOCENT PEOPLE IN JAIL!

    Seriously. I for one am completely done with you....

     

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  64.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    No, but if you are living in someone's house and it is seized for drug sales, you are SOL.

     

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  65.  
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    cc (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:30am

    Re: Re: Re:

    How fucking stupid can you be?

    They are NOT protecting any children by taking websites offline. If they really wanted to protect the children, they'd be arresting the people who put those websites online.

    Is that clear enough or do you want me to draw you a diagram?

     

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  66.  
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    Gwiz (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Everywhere there is government at work, Mike sees someone trying to strip him of his rights.

    If it looks like duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably IS a duck.

     

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  67.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:38am

    Re: Re:

    It's the worst political trick in the book

    ...and one you aren't far from using on a regular basis yourself.

    It's amusing to see you get your manties in a knot over this, because this is where your stands tend to take you. If you want free speech, you have to support the free speech that you don't like as well. If the speech is illegal, and you think it is bad, then you should come down on the people who facilitate it, no matter what the manner is.

    Service providers who offer their services to anonymous users are always going to be at risk to be part of illegal activity. Most people don't want to be anonymous just for the heck of it, they have reasons. You run "techdirt", not "sometechsite.moooo.com" for a reason. You aren't trying to hide.

    The problem you face is this: You are against child porn, but you are also against action taken to stop it. Using your own standard conclusion system, it could be concluded that you support child porn because you support the companies that provide services to allow it to spread. Yup, file lockers, dynamic DNS services, anonymous chat rooms, P2P software... as you are supporting their legal use, you indirectly end up also supporting and protecting those who use it for illegal activities.

    It's why you get called out often on P2P piracy. You have to be willfully blind not to realize what P2P is being used for by most end users. Protecting the rights of the few entails protecting the rights for people clearly breaking the law. Shouldn't you be asking yourself about the greater good?

     

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  68.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:46am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I think the fear is (and is often the case) that the dynamic DNS provider is profiting from the illegal acts, so they will either act as slowly as possible to remove the sites, or will do the ultimate trick, removing the sites and redirecting the traffic to profitable pages for them. Oh yeah, then they allow the CP sites to sign right back up 10 minutes later.

    Also, what many sites that want to hide do these days is this:

    User dynamic DNS to point to an IP address, usually on a DSL connection. But it isn't their computer, just a machine their back doored and installed a rootkit on, putting ngix or similar small package webserver on there to act only as a proxy redirector. That redirection might point to multiple mirrors or even through a series of redirections before getting to the content.

    The end result is that except for pulling down the dynamic dns, there is no real way to track or stop them.

    If you want a history lesson in nasty tricks, go look at the history of Estdomains, Esthost, and other related companies. When people really want to avoid the law, they can do it without issue.

     

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  69.  
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    weneedhelp (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:47am

    average_joke

    Anyone notice how he never responds, especially when the points are valid?


    Dont feed the trolls.

    An AC put it nicely:
    "They could have gathered useful information from the dynamic dns site's owner about who was using a specific account, their IP addresses used, and then do real investigation from there."

    Real investigations are too hard and expensive though. It is easier to just take a "server marker" away, than actually stop crime. That way it looks like they are doing something without actually stopping anything. it is a GOV win win, only one who loses are innocent websites, and the children.

     

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  70.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 10:53am

    Re: Re: Re:

    It seems to me that what happened here is that certain subdomains were found to have child porn, and somehow the entire domain name was taken down instead of the subdomains. We don't know why that happened, but it's apparent that the mistake was quickly reversed.

    that's because registrars handle domain names, not subdomains. that's the problem with pulling a domain name at the registrar level without warning.

    in this case, pulling mooo.com pulls it's host records (CNames, aliases, etc.) as well, so while that's guaranteed to make hotkiddieporn.mooo.com inaccessible by that hostname, it also makes stampcollecting.mooo.com inaccessible by that host name as well.

     

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  71.  
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    Any Mouse (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:00am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Your analogy is backwards. It's more like seizing an entire apartment building because one tenant had weed growing in their closet.

     

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  72.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:04am

    Re: Re:

    I am not just deeply offended, I am left saddened that anyone would stoop to such a level and think that it was an appropriate point of argument.

    showing emotions on the internet... no good will come of this.

     

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  73.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Simply making the site inaccessible would have been 83000x better than what they actually did. ICE's practice of adding the warning messages needs to stop. There's no legal justification for it. Is it supposed to be a virtual "KEEP OUT" sign or virtual "POLICE LINE DO NOT CROSS" tape? If they already have the domain completely under their control then it's overkill.

     

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  74.  
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    The eejit (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:05am

    Re: Re: Re:

    Then they were DOING IT WRONG. They could easily have used the information to track down someone and arrest them for distribution of obscene materials.

     

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  75.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:10am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    It's more like seizing an entire apartment building because one tenant had weed growing in their closet.

    which is why there are safe harbor provisions, to keep this exact thing from happening.

     

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  76.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:14am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And the tenants of every other apartment should have signs put on their doors indicating that they're rapists.

    in this case it's 84,000 apartments, so it's more like a putting the signs up on all the doors in a half-mile radius.

     

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  77.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Oh yeah, then they allow the CP sites to sign right back up 10 minutes later.

    right, and now that mooo.com is down, there's no way that they can sign up somewhere else. try again.

    and since there are other dynamic DNS hosts who are also free, it's possible that there are multiple dynamic host names pointing to the same content who haven't been taken down. try again.

    The end result is that except for pulling down the dynamic dns, there is no real way to track or stop them.

    so 84,000 sites have to suffer because DHS sucks at police work? try again.

    When people really want to avoid the law, they can do it without issue.

    it's a situation often referred to here as whac-a-mole. it's a waste of time and tax payer dollars.

    which begs the question, if this isn't going to make a difference, why is ICE doing this in the first place?

     

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  78.  
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    RikuoAmero (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:27am

    Re: Re: Re:

    What you just said there offended me deeply. My father abused two of my sisters. If he had made child porn of them (not outside the realm of possibility, I honestly don't know if he did or did not), then I would have wanted my police to actually have investigated this child porn, seized any DVDs/VHS/hard drives/photos etc that contained the actual child porn.
    What happened here is the equivalent of taking his phone number out of the directory. It does nothing to stop child porn: the offender is at liberty to continue offending, at liberty to continue abusing children. S/he will destroy evidence, go into hiding. What happened with this massive domain seizure DID SWEET F**K ALL to STOP CHILD PORN!!!
    Not only is the "phone number" taken out of the directory, all similar "phone numbers" were blocked. Imagine this happens to you, and someone calls your landline, only to hear a recording from the government saying "This phone was used to facilitate the movement and/or production of child pornography", all the while the phone's bill payer is still sitting at home oblivious to the entire situation.
    And as for protecting the rights of the few? Isn't the whole justice system built on the principle of "Let ten guilty men go rather than jail one innocent man"?

     

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  79.  
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    JP, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:30am

    Re: Re: Re:

    The problem you face is this: You are against child porn, but you are also against action taken to stop it. Using your own standard conclusion system, it could be concluded that you support child porn because you support the companies that provide services to allow it to spread. Yup, file lockers, dynamic DNS services, anonymous chat rooms, P2P software... as you are supporting their legal use, you indirectly end up also supporting and protecting those who use it for illegal activities.

    Right... So, because I support people being able to buy digital cameras, then I must support kiddie porn too... (Ya know, it's much easier to take kiddie porn pics when you don't have to take the photos to a developer or develop them yourself).

    Hmmm... I support the Internet too, so I'm ipso-facto supporting all the illegal activity that happens on it too?

    What a bizarre view of the world.

     

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  80.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:32am

    Re: Re: Re:

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110203/22422912958/homeland-security-tries-fails-to-explain-why-s eized-domains-are-different-google.shtml#c365

    average_joe: I love the government, so I'm probably in the minority around here.

    Because governments never make mistakes and if they do, average_joe will defend them, because that's love.

     

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  81.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:34am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I am sorry for your sisters (and what you had to deal with as well). But you are missing the point here.

    Seizing the domains isn't the start, and it isn't the finish. It isn't "well, we got the domains, let's call it a day". What they are doing it making it harder for these pedos to hook up and trade videos and trade secrets. It is also clear they know where these domains were hosted (mostly outside of the US) and are working with authorities in those countries to deal with the issue.

    They did something that is small in the overall deal, but they did something.

    There is little that anyone can say that can justify slowing down any part of a process that makes child porn harder to find, harder to share, and so on.

     

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  82.  
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    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:41am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "There is little that anyone can say that can justify slowing down any part of a process that makes child porn harder to find, harder to share, and so on."

    They. Locked. Up. Innocent. Sites.

    There is NOTHING, not even claims of trying to stop child porn, that can justify punishing the innocent....

     

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  83.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:42am

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If most digital cameras were used for producing CP, you don't think that companies would not want to be in that business, and the governments of the world might not look into their uses? If that was the case, standing around crying about how digital cameras have "some legit uses" would look totally stupid. It is exactly where we stand on P2P, the vast majority of the users having it to pirate, nothing more and nothing less. Yet, we stand here arguing about the legit uses.

    Heck, I can think of legit uses for a crack pipe. They are illegal to have in most places.

    I support the Internet too, so I'm ipso-facto supporting all the illegal activity that happens on it too?

    Nope, because you turned the scope back way too far, attempting to create to paint my view as a bizarre absolute. It is not. The internet in and of itself isn't a problem, any more than cars are a problem. Using incorrectly, either can cause issues. Cars used to smuggle drugs or weapons are a real issue, and should be able to seized without having first to take the person to court and prove the use - the cars should be seized, and then the process continues from there.

    The internet is the same thing. The internet is fine. The use of the internet for child porn is not fine. Seizing the domain of child porn sites and then progressing from there should be considered normal.

    What Mike is saying is that effectively he wants "real world" due process, while permitting "internet speed" law breaking to continue. In doing that, he is indirectly supporting the rights of child porn sites to stay online. He may not like it, but that is where his legal logic drops him. He supports the cesspool, and that cesspool including shit like child porn. That is what support of absolute free speech gets you.

     

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  84.  
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    chris (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You do know that Google runs Blogger, which allows blogs to be hosted on Blogspot.com subdomains, so that "freemovies.blogspot.com" could exist quite easily?

    google is different.

    middle aged voters who watch TV would notice if google.com stopped working.

     

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  85.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:47am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    As long as their are services like mooo.com, the people trying to hide will be able to keep moving around and keep trying. It's why the intention of a free anonymous dynamic dns thing may be good, the realities are that it is easily abused (and often is).

     

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  86.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:48am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So, you're saying that it's perfectly OK to screw over 84,000 people because of something that can happen (but we have no proof that it would have) at the root level? It's like the police shooting everyone in an apartment building because one of them could have a gun and might use it against them.

    The rest of what you said is worthless. Taking down 84,000 websites because one could be pointing to a hidden server is just outright bullshit.

     

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  87.  
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    Chronno S. Trigger (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:52am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So your solution is to kill the tool because it can be misused and you have a false belief that it's more often misused then not. I got news for you, if someone is using a DYNDNS service, they run the risk of the host service be perfectly willing to give the feds the IP address they're using at the time. Dynamic DNS services are not safer for illegal activities then someone buying a domain.

     

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  88.  
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    RikuoAmero (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:55am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They are making it harder to trade child porn?
    Excuse me for a moment while I go and simultaneously laugh my ass off, and go into a deep rage.
    "It isn't the finish": then where are the press releases from ICE saying they've arrested X amount of child pornographers? All they're trumpeting here is taking the phone number out of the phone book.
    "There is little that anyone can say that can justify slowing down any part of a process that makes child porn harder to find, harder to share, and so on".
    And you good sir have fallen for the trap here. Did this massive domain name seizure actually make child porn harder to find and/or share?
    Case in point: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0126/1224288327252.html
    To summarize: An Irish Central Bank manager was convicted recently of possessing child porn. He had disks full of the stuff. Irish police went to his house with a search warrent.
    They didn't take down the entire Central Bank website; they didn't block all the phone numbers of the houses in his area; they actually did some real police work, investigated, got a confession, got real evidence (CDs, DVDs, floppy disks), then jailed him.
    Compare that smooth operation with what ICE are doing here. And then try to convince me that ICE's methods actually stop and/or slow the transfer of child porn.

     

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  89.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:58am

    Re: Re: Re:

    AJ, your obliviousness is awesome. Did you forget the time you threw a tantrum spreading across multiple posts and multiple days because Mike hurt your feelings?

     

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  90.  
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    J.J. (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 11:59am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Seriously dude ... this is not taking action against child molesters or those that traffic child pornography, this is the appearance of taking action.

    Not a single child was saved, not a single pedo was arrested - they just swept the sites under the rug.
    Oh, and wrongfully accused 80.000+ people of trafficking child porn in the process.
    Not to mention shat all over due process and probably a whole lot of civil liberties aswell.

    Don't even try the whole 'Greater good' thing, because if that's your opinion your sympathies should lie with the 80.000 wrongfully accused.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  91.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I never governments never make mistakes. In fact, I've indicated that the government, like all systems, can always be improved. What I do know is that all of my friends that work for the government are all trying their best, and I salute them for it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  92.  
    icon
    RikuoAmero (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So because the law is too slow these days, it should be ignored.
    I can see where you're coming from. And I can understand it. However, I don't agree with you.
    The law says "It is illegal to use the internet to distribute CP". The law also has rules about the prosecution of those accused of distributing CP, which must be followed. Do you know what happens when rules like these are recklessly broken by the police? The accused's lawyers use these broken rules to ensure their clients are freed.
    Oh wait...the accused don't even get a trial. Or only months later, after their reputation is in tatters.

     

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  93.  
    identicon
    Urza9814, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:04pm

    Re:

    So is it then legal to shut down Comcast because someone on their network is downloading CP?

    That's essentially what they did here. They shut down an entire service provider, including a HUGE amount of ENTIRELY LEGAL and ENTIRELY UNRELATED sites because one of those sites was hosting CP.

     

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  94.  
    identicon
    George Bread, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:07pm

    DHS/ICE seizures of domains

    OK - I understand that DHS was created to protect the country from terrorism. But if it's now in the business of seizing domains from child pornographers (whom I think are scum and ought to be hung), hasn't their charter just exploded? Why can't they just be involved in terrorism and leave the regular policing to the existing agencies (local police, FBI...)? Aren't they now just keepers of a police state?

     

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  95.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    You mean when he said I abuse a system for profit, even though I have never done such a thing? I make my money in real estate and the stock market. Law for me is fun. I'm in law school for sheer pleasure. I have no intention of ever abusing anything for profit.

    Look, I don't doubt he hates child molestation. I was simply pointing out that his innuendo that these seizures were "for the children" was somehow pretextual was baseless. I see no reason to not believe that they are in fact "for the children."

     

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  96.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:11pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    In fact, it's even better for Feds if the child porn users use dynamic DNS services. If they're too cheap to buy their own domain name ($20-$30 a year minimum). At that point, they're running the servers off their home computers, meaning that it's as simple as requesting the IP address from the DNS service, and then tracing it to the user's home address.

    And then the Feds would actually be arresting the child pornographers, instead of doing absolutely nothing of use. What a joke.

     

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  97.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:16pm

    Re: average_joke

    "Real investigations are too hard and expensive though. It is easier to just take a "server marker" away, than actually stop crime. That way it looks like they are doing something without actually stopping anything. it is a GOV win win, only one who loses are innocent websites, and the children."

    Seriously. You'd think it'd be so simple for them to do this.

    1) You see child porn on the website.
    2) Grab the IP address of that subdomain.
    3) Tracert the IP address and find the ISP.
    4) Call up the ISP and request the home address of that IP.
    5) Get immediate response since the child porn is actually still there and have proof of it because the idiot is running a server off that IP.
    6) Arrest the sonovabitch.

    Steps 1-4 are practically free. 5 & 6 require minimal effort. But of course, paperwork even too hard for these idiot. Every time I hear more about these ICE seizures, it makes me even more sad for my country.

     

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  98.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:28pm

    Re: Re:

    Sadly this is not just fiction.

    A friend of mine was accused of having child porn on his work computer. (I am pretty sure he never did anything beyond downloading out of curiosity).

    His case never came to court. He was murdered by a vigilante.

    I am sure that the vigilante would claim he was doing it "for the children".

    When I was young I was taught that two wrongs don't make a right. Someone needs to teach ICE/DHS that lesson.

    The fact that I feel the need to post this as an AC shows how bad the situation has got with respect to this class of crime.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  99.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  100.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:42pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    BUT COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT!!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  101.  
    icon
    Richard (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:43pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    There is little that anyone can say that can justify slowing down any part of a process that makes child porn harder to find, harder to share, and so on.

    But they effectively publicly accused a large number of innocent people of being involved in child porn. In the present witch hunt climate that is enough to get people murdered. Aren't you concerned that an innocent person could lose his life because of this?

     

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  102.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:47pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They should try harder.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  103.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 12:48pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    LOL! So what? I love my government.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  104.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:02pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I love when people contradict themselves so completely that they are shown for the true asshats that they are. From our esteemed DeVry School of Law student Average Joe:

    "We know you love pirates, but do you love child molesters too?"

    "I don't doubt he hates child molestation."

    I'm bringing back the drinking game where we all have to do a shot everytime someone completely contradicts themselves.

    DRINK!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  105.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:14pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Nope. They accused them of nothing, except accepting service from a company who (unintentionally, it would seem) was also providing service to child porn purveyors.

    You are in a night club, having a drink. It's a big place, 1000 people. The bar gets raided because of drug sales and minors in the bar. Everyone who is in the bar is checked, and then released out the front door, past the waiting media. You are legal and don't do drugs, but your image ends up on the 6PM news as "patrons exiting a drug dealing, underage drinking" establishment. You were charged with nothing, but you were there, and you were associated with the place.

    Sometimes, it isn't what you are doing, but what the people around you are doing that lands you in trouble.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  106.  
    icon
    Jay (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Seek help...

    You seem to need a lot of it in saying that you support a government blindly, without looking objectively at the destruction they can do by going after innocent people.

    That is the most morally bankrupt position that one could take... Blind loyalty/nationalism is all well and good unless it comes at the detriment of imposing on other's rights.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  107.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    And I love my cigar but I take it out of my mouth every once in a while.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  108.  
    icon
    J.J. (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Not that simple when it comes to DNS.

    "Eventually, on Sunday the domain seizure was reverted and the subdomains slowly started to point to the old sites again instead of the accusatory banner. However, since the DNS entries have to propagate, it took another 3 days before the images disappeared completely."

    People were fingered as child molesters for up to 3 days, this was not a matter of being checked and then let go.
    To go with an analogy this was hanging a "Child Molester" sign on their mailboxes for anyone going to that adress to see.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  109.  
    icon
    Jay (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:22pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    We don't have enough drinks in the world for what these people need...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  110.  
    icon
    Jay (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Actually think literary references.

    All these people had "CM" written to their chest as a drummer boy paraded them through as a Child molester for 3 days before just saying

    "Sorry, my bad"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  111.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:30pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    I love when people can't understand that I was saying something to make a point. Drink!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  112.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:34pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I love when people can't understand that I was saying something to make a point. Drink!"

    Yeah, not even close. There was nothing resembling a rational point in your accusatory question. You made a reprehensable comment, got called out, and now can't even admit you were wrong in saying it.

    And you wonder why people on this site treat you harshly? Sorry, I don't have time for the willfully ignorant that want to try to tapdance their way out of their own bullshit....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  113.  
    icon
    J.J. (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:49pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Careful now DH, yer gna need a new liver if you try to play a drinking game with Average_joe's posts =)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  114.  
    identicon
    Jeff Rife, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 1:51pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    What if they were actually targeting child porn?

    Removing websites from DNS isn't "targeting child porn"...tracking down the site owners and arresting them would be "targeting child porn". But, that would require things like proof that would stand up through an arraignment hearing, which is too damn inconvenient for the US government to bother with these days.

    So, instead, they cost the site owner a few dollars to register a new domain with a registrar outside of the US government reach. So, if these sites really do have child porn, all the ICE has done is make it harder to prosecute the people responsible, while still keeping the content available.

    Despite all this, I'm sure that the ICE employees are patting themselves on the back for their "success" with these operations.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  115.  
    icon
    Dark Helmet (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 2:00pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "Careful now DH, yer gna need a new liver if you try to play a drinking game with Average_joe's posts =)"

    I'm Irish, I'll be fine....

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  116.  
    identicon
    Jeff Rife, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 2:06pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    They accused them of nothing, except accepting service from a company who (unintentionally, it would seem) was also providing service to child porn purveyors.

    And, now you fell into the second trap (the first being the "all for the good of the children" mantra).

    If there was enough evidence to convict people of child pornography, something other than domain seizures would have been done (warrants served, people arrested, etc.). But, there isn't enough evidence, and there may not be any credible evidence (based on the quality of the "evidence" for previous seizures) that any crime was committed.

    So, with no evidence that mooo.com in any way hosted sites that contain any illegal material, what you have just done with your post is libeled mooo.com.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  117.  
    icon
    Nick Coghlan (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 2:25pm

    Minor clarification...

    The article gives the impression in a couple of places that afraid.org itself was seized - that didn't happen, just one of the multitude of domains it provides DNS services for.

    They actually have an interesting business model:

    - they will provide free DNS services for a domain, but if you choose this option, then anyone else is also free to create new subdomains within that domain
    - alternatively, you can pay a subscription fee for your DNS services, and only you will be able to create subdomains (with the number of subdomains capped based on the level of subscription)

    The first level acts as a promotional service for the paid levels.

    I now return you to your regularly scheduled illustration of Mike's point :P

    (Disclosure: I actually have a paid subscription with afraid.org to be the DNS provider for my own domain. It's a nice simple good value service)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  118.  
    identicon
    Sambo, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 4:24pm

    They seem so cluess maybe the dept should be instead referred to as 'Homeland Obscurity'

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  119.  
    identicon
    Rekrul, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 5:14pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Mike's derision assumes that the "for the children" argument was just pretext. What if they were actually targeting child porn?

    So as long as they were actually targeting child porn, it's perfectly ok to circumvent the normal legal process? If so, how far should that ability be extended? Would it acceptable to just lock people up indefinitely without ever filing charges against them, as long as there was a suspicion that they were involved in child porn?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  120.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 5:26pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If you saw "freemovies.google.com", would you think that Google was now in the free movie business?

    Oh, look, there's "freemovies@gmail.com"! Google must be in the free movie business!
    /s

    If you see "childpr0n.mooo.com" do you make the same assumption about mooo.com?

    No, I make that assumption about .com!
    /s

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  121.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 16th, 2011 @ 5:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Which rise an important question:

    If the seizure only works on DNS level, and you're real "target" who really want to visit those site, you'd just need to place the site's IP to your local "hosts" file (I believe those used to visit wites which knowingly allow hosting such content have already done so. Even those who doesn't know enough to do this would likely to get instruction from other users on the site.) to continue visit the "targeted content". This proves this whole mission has nothing to do with "protect the children".

    So people should stop use "protect the children" for reason to support domain name seizure. If you really want to protect, you should do what China does - issue court order to shutdown the site.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  122.  
    icon
    Chris in Utah (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    *need to do better

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  123.  
    icon
    G Thompson (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Unless its a witch.. made of wood of course ;)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  124.  
    icon
    G Thompson (profile), Feb 16th, 2011 @ 9:57pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I never governments never make mistakes" ---- HA!

    For some amazing mistakes that Governments make with regard to Statute laws.. you might be amazed at this http://www.dumblaws.com/ [and I expect this to go viral amongst your fellow students]

    You might like your own state's law on how it is illegal to steal a “movable” even if it classified as an “immovable”. WTF! Oh and look at Arkansas.. Freaky! And yes, Australia is under the International link as well *sighs*

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  125.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 17th, 2011 @ 1:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Or better analogy yet, put a sign on the road that everyone live there are rapist.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  126.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 17th, 2011 @ 1:28am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    As long as there are cars running on the roads, thieves will be able to use them to evade the police. Are you supporter of policy that "police can perform city-wide traffic suspend if any police officer believe some robbery is happening" without any supervision?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  127.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 17th, 2011 @ 5:56am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    So clear now.

    AJ loves his government... a government that operates a pedophile ring shipping little boys to Iraq.

    Then AJ attacks Mike for speaking out about pretend CP actions that achieve nothing - thus AJ must support these pretend actions that achieve nothing - thus AJ supports the continuation of child pornography and pedophilia.


    AJ WHEN DID YOU STOP BUGGERING LITTLE BOYS?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  128.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 6:16am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    As someone who was sexually molested, I take great offense at your post. I know you're just an idiot, though, so I won't let it get to me.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  129.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 17th, 2011 @ 6:24am

    "Operation Protect Our Children" is such a laughably blatant attempt to erect a barrier to questioning their activities.

    Q: "You took down 84,000 sites?"
    A: "A PEDO! GET HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  130.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Feb 17th, 2011 @ 6:25am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    This far down the discussion and you're only just beginning to grasp the basics?

    Too funny.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  131.  
    icon
    chris (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 8:50am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    the people trying to hide will be able to keep moving around and keep trying

    i don't think dynamic DNS means what you think it means.

    dynamic DNS doesn't help you hide. it does the opposite, it helps people find you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  132.  
    icon
    chris (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 9:01am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    if the sites in question were really engaging in illegal activity, why not take control of them and use them for sting operations like the FBI did with ShadowCrew:

    https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/ShadowCrew

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  133.  
    icon
    chris (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 9:06am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    If you saw "freemovies.google.com", would you think that Google was now in the free movie business? If you see "childpr0n.mooo.com" do you make the same assumption about mooo.com?

    blogspot.com is owned by google, and as you can see there are thousands of sites dedicated to free movies:

    https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=802&q=si te%3Ablogspot.com+free+movies&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  134.  
    icon
    average_joe (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 10:58am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Aren't you just an unpleasant ass? I thought that subdomains could be seized individually. Apparently they cannot. I learned something new. Big woopity doo. No need to be such an incredible asshole.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  135.  
    icon
    btr1701 (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 4:53pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    > Mike's derision assumes that the "for the
    > children" argument was just pretext.
    > What if they were actually targeting
    > child porn?

    Doesn't matter. Unless you're suggesting that it's okay for law enforcement to end-run the law so long as they have a good child porn reason to do so.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  136.  
    icon
    Any Mouse (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 5:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    "I see no reason to not believe that they are in fact "for the children.""

    That is quite easy to address, actually. If it were truly 'for the children,' they would not be going after DNS domains. They would be going after servers, and the people who run them. Taking the name, cutting off that one link, does nothing to fight child molestation/pornography. It makes them dig deeper, hide better, and be harder to find and prosecute.

    This is why people are jumping on you for this comment. It was baseless, and a very low blow. Your explanation is meaningless in the context or reality of the situation.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  137.  
    icon
    Any Mouse (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 6:01pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Considering your generally flippant comments regarding child molestation, I find this a bit difficult to believe.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  138.  
    icon
    Any Mouse (profile), Feb 17th, 2011 @ 6:04pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    Thank you. This is what Mike was referring to with the CP notice slapped on mooo.com. ONE site was suspected of having child porn. ONE subdomain. Instead of going to Mooo.com, they went to the registrar, and shut down 83,000 sites and slapped the CP notice on ALL of them.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  139.  
    identicon
    Jose_X, Mar 12th, 2011 @ 6:29pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

    >> As long as their are services like mooo.com, the people trying to hide will be able to keep moving around and keep trying. It's why the intention of a free anonymous dynamic dns thing may be good, the realities are that it is easily abused (and often is).

    I never thought about it that way, but you are correct that we should shut down the Internet, computer makers, gun makers, ... It's a long list of things I had never realized we should be shutting down to prevent copyright infringement and perhaps other violent crimes like murder.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  140.  
    identicon
    fReaknEck, Jan 18th, 2012 @ 10:15am

    Re: Re: Re:

    ..."The problem you face is this: You are against child porn, but you are also against action taken to stop it. Using your own standard conclusion system, it could be concluded that you support child porn because you support the companies that provide services to allow it to spread. Yup, file lockers, dynamic DNS services, anonymous chat rooms, P2P software... as you are supporting their legal use, you indirectly end up also supporting and protecting those who use it for illegal activities."

    .....What, are you a friggin' idiot ? What don't you understand about this whole thing ? First of all....how is taking a website down protecting *any* children ? That's a BS argument. It doesn't find the abused children, it doesn't get them away from whomever is making the videos, or anything.......

    .....as others said, due process would be a far better way to go, that may actually get results and not make the look like idiots. They could have identified the sites, and worked with mooo.com to actually apprehend suspects, duh. If you've *ever* used a dynamic DNS service, you would know that the Dyn DNS service knows the IP address of *every* redirection, and therefore, could actually narrow down and *find* the suspects....or, at the very least, cancelled their redirection account.

    Cars are used for illegal activities...let's take your away. Guns are used for illegal activities, let's take all your guns. Cell phones are used in the commission of crimes, give up your cell phone now!!!!!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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