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UK Hairdresser Fined For Playing Music Even Though He Tried To Be Legal
from the the-system-is-designed-to-trip-you-up dept
We've pointed out many times just how ridiculously complex various licensing collection agencies are in the music space, especially when multiple collection societies cover the same music. The whole system seems designed to make it nearly impossible for anyone to actually play music legally. Take, for example, this situation in the UK, pointed out by reader mike allen, involving a hairdresser who had paid for a license from PRS For Music just to be allowed to turn on a radio in his shop... only to discover that he failed to pay the other UK collection society, PPL (home of the infamous CEO who insists that "for free" is a bogus concept). So even though this guy thought he was legit, he still ended up with a fine for £1,569.
In his defense, he claimed that he'd never even heard of PPL, and since he had a PRS license, he assumed (quite reasonably) that he was in the clear. Now, I'm sure that defenders of the system will quickly step up and say that it was his responsibility to find out what music licensing groups you have to hand over a tithe to each year, but all this guy wants to do is turn on his radio. For most people, it's just common sense that you shouldn't have to pay a fee just to turn on a radio in your barber shop. And then, once you're informed that this totally nonsensical situation is, in fact, true, it seems quite reasonable to then assume that one license will let you turn on the radio. Finding out that you need two (or more) separate licenses just to turn on the radio (even though the radio already pays its fees and the music acts a promotion) just seems ridiculous for everyone who isn't a recording industry exec or a long term copyright lawyer.
Copyright is not supposed to work this way.
In his defense, he claimed that he'd never even heard of PPL, and since he had a PRS license, he assumed (quite reasonably) that he was in the clear. Now, I'm sure that defenders of the system will quickly step up and say that it was his responsibility to find out what music licensing groups you have to hand over a tithe to each year, but all this guy wants to do is turn on his radio. For most people, it's just common sense that you shouldn't have to pay a fee just to turn on a radio in your barber shop. And then, once you're informed that this totally nonsensical situation is, in fact, true, it seems quite reasonable to then assume that one license will let you turn on the radio. Finding out that you need two (or more) separate licenses just to turn on the radio (even though the radio already pays its fees and the music acts a promotion) just seems ridiculous for everyone who isn't a recording industry exec or a long term copyright lawyer.
Copyright is not supposed to work this way.
Reader Comments (rss)
(Flattened / Threaded)
Tuesday, July 6, 2010 at 06:59 PM
PRS and PPL are parasites, and the copyright law is ridiculous. Rock FM or whatever station he had on will already have paid a ton of money to these people for a blanket licence to play music, and the BBC have to pay per song played. It's absolutely crazy the end user has to pay AGAIN for something that's already been paid for.
im a pc
Tuesday, July 6, 2010 at 06:29 PM
WHAT has the world come to ? how many times do you hear of shoplifters,vandals,no insurance drivers etc in the news in brief that have actually commited crimes and recieved a fine around £200 and a slapped wrists. Do me a favour, this poor bloke is earning an honest living and he gets stung with a £1500 fine!!!!! im sorry but thats ridiculous, i mean how can this be right, there is no justice in the world for hardworking citizens.
Mutch_1938
Tuesday, July 6, 2010 at 06:27 PM
If someone creates a cure for cancer or invents an electric car they can charge for this knowledge for 20 years. If someone writes `we all live in a yellow submarine`. They are paid for the rest of their lives. . I have just downloaded `the Eagles Greatest Hits` for free at Torrentz.com. There is no need to pay for any music now. Simply search for the torrent on the internet.
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Happy
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PRS v PPL
The original article doesn't provide any insight as to the method by which PPL informed the hairdresser of their obligations and gave them the chance to pay. Given that they are a collections agency who are trying to get paid, they presumably start out by trying to get the money. The article doesn't go into any detail about the lengths that the hairdresser tried to defend himself in court. The argument "I didn't know about you guys" isn't going to win any awards as a defence.
The obvious counter to this shakedown is to not use music in any form. No radio, no CD player, no hold music on the phone.
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this is ridiculous enough...
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less moneyfrom radio
I don't understand why radio stations have not lobbied to protect the ability of businesses to play the radio.
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Copyright is not supposed to work this way.
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Remember
indie Musicians unite!!!
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TV Licence
It's high time these "Copyright Pirates" were seen for what they are. The only piracy I can see is what they are doing.
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*sigh*
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Comemercials!
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Re: PRS v PPL
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TechDirt - you're not reporting this fairly - "you need two (or more) separate licenses just to turn on the radio" - only if you are running a business and playing it to the public. Obviously you don't need them as an individual when listening to your radio in private. Please don't try to make out this is something that it's not.
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So Mad
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Re: TV Licence
This case is about broadcasting commercial music in public. The performing rights society (PRS) cover the licensing for actual playing of the recordings to the public, while the PPL look after the licensing of the publishing rights of the songs that are played to the public.
http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Why-you-need-a-licence/
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We need to pay a TV licence to watch 'over the air' broadcasts which is used to fund the BBC's radio, television and internet services but not if the TV isn't plugged into an aerial.
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Re: Remember
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This makes no sense.
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Radio remotes
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Re: Re:
Sometimes I read things that people write/say and I wonder where one can find a drug that would make one so delusional.
The above statement is one of those things....
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If all the customers were listening to the music privately, it wouldn't be the business' responsibility.
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Copyright not supposed to work this way?
It's supposed to enable the privileged copyright holder to extort money from the instigators of any cultural exchange involving the covered work.
Did you really believe those glib pretexts that copyright is supposed to encourage learning, promote the progress, facilitate cultural exchange, or actually enrich anyone other than publishers?
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If you don't agree with the principle of paying to broadcast other people's music, don't broadcast it.
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Moral of the story - listening to music in the workplace has become too much of a hassle and you should stop your employees from doing so.
Oh - and if you are singing, make sure you pay for that as well:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091021/1134566619.shtml
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We used to play the radio in my jewelry store, because the jeweler liked to hear it. It had zip to do with increasing custom.
What if the barber played it because he likes to hear music? It's okay, then? What if it's music that his customers don't even like? Would that make it okay, since it's not increasing his custom?
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Re: Radio remotes
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All you can gather from the fact that he played licensed music is that... he played licensed music. You can make any other soup from that oyster. :)
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If the barber played the music just because he liked the music... too bad. Whether it increases custom or not, you have to pay if you're broadcasting licensed music to the public, in the UK. As a business owner, you take the decision and thus the risk of paying for a license in the hope of increased custom (or not paying for it but risking a fine!).
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Re: TV Licence
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The first AC still has a valid point. The radio station pays the license to broadcast what they pay to anyone and everyone, why does someone have to pay a second license if anyone else can hear their radio?
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What I was 'gathering' was the fact the he had already paid the PRS licensing fee, so he was already aware that he had to pay something to broadcast the music. Unfortunately he hadn't done his research properly and forgot to set up an arrangement with the PPL too.
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How about because under the current iteration of assanine IP laws he doesn't have any other choice if he wants his radio on? That certainly doesn't mean he AGREES with the practice, does it? He simply doesn't have any other options.
I'll never get this idea that everytime something is used to make money, the creators of that something should be paid. It just doesn't make any sense, nor is it used in most other goods in existence. We rent office space, but we don't pay royalties to the real estate company everytime we make a sale. We have VoIP phones, but we don't pay XO Communications every time we bring on a new customer. Most of the hardware we use for our managed services platforms involve manufacturers paying US to use it, not the other way around....
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Re: Happy
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Re: Re: Remember
However, it's the artists that should be up in arms about these collection agencies and their antics. If you really think the mall not playing popular music will stop people from going there, you are delusional. People don't go to the mall to listen to the music, they go because they have to BUY something. Now, if there was a nice song playing and a sign in the music store I was walking past showing me the cover of the CD that the song is on (and perhaps a T-Shirt), that may be a pretty nice promotion for the artist. Instead, I don't hear their new music, I continue to listen to the White Album, and continue to complain that the new music available sucks.
In the meantime, the collection agency is doing it's collecting, giving a percentage of the money to some artists (just the big ones, because the small guys don't matter) and keeping a big chunk of it for 'looking out for the rights of the artists'. I think mobsters go to jail for the same activity.
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But generally speaking, most offices are not open to the public.
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Re: Re: Remember
You say that the mall customer should boycott the mall because of the lack of music? I say that the mall customer should boycott artists affiliated with those agencies because of their tactics. Then maybe they'll learn. :)
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Re: Radio remotes
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It's not necessarily about the music being used to make money, it's about the wishes of the creators/publishers. In this case, they have chosen to use the PRS and PPL, who require businesses to pay for a license to broadcast the music they are responsible for. But of course, no artist is forced to use those services.
And your office space metaphor is actually exactly how the licensing works. Generally businesses pay a fixed amount for their license to broadcast music, not per play of a track or per person that hears it, just like you pay a fixed amount to rent your office each week/month/year. In both cases its irrespective of how many sales you make.
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Are you some PR person for the PRS or PPL? you seem to promote them very well, LOL!
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Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Copyright is about letting the owner/creator of the work choose what happens to it, be that licensing it to anyone via the PRS/PPL, deciding that only their friends can ever listen to it, giving it away for free without any conditions, or whatever.
The reality is most creators go down the money route because they need to earn a living. Nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Comemercials!
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Apparently, since you have no actual skills except sucking money that you didn't earn like a leech, you failed to understand such a simple concept.
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I never said differently. But just because he agreed to pay for the license does NOT mean that he agrees with the practice, which is what I took you to mean when you originally stated: "The fact he paid up with the PRS means he agreed with this principle". That's just a pure logic fail....
"It's not necessarily about the music being used to make money, it's about the wishes of the creators/publishers."
And here we go. FINALLY! At least this is an honest position to take, albeit one I simply can't seem to square with the law. Copyright is not a mechanism to protect creator's rights, and these licensing schemes are built upon copyright. Copyright is a mechanism to get artists to create MORE art for the benefit of the public. When these collection agencies twst that law to require double and triple payment for the same thing, like music being played on the radio, they do a disservice to the law, be it UK law or American law or wherever. Honestly, this is just getting silly.
"And your office space metaphor is actually exactly how the licensing works."
I get how the licensing works. YOU were the one that said: "If they're playing music as part of their business, as a way to increase custom (just like shops/bars do), then yes, they have to pay the license fees." The idea seems to be the creators think that if their creations are used to make other people money, they automagically deserve a cut. And that is really, REALLY stupid.
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UK TV Licences
Seems to me that the UK TV Licensing Bureau is as bad as the collection agencies.
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Re: Re: PRS v PPL
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Re: Re: Happy
Keep up, will ya?
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How is a business owner a customer, sorry? They simply sue the people that steal their music, which is perfectly fair.
And by the way, recorded music is not a dead business in the slighest. UK single sales are higher than ever before: http://www.bpi.co.uk/press-area/news-amp3b-press-release/article/2009-is-record-year-for-uk-singles- sales.aspx
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You're multi-dipping on your fees, getting paid by the radio stations, and getting paid by the people playing that music, as well as all kinds of various taxes and other things on top of devices, and you're trying to defend it? Do you have any idea what kind of a scumball you come across as?
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Re: Re: TV Licence
So why on earth did the PRS take this guy's money and not advise him that he needed a second license? It must have been really obvious to them that he wasn't playing live music in a hairdressers. Seems to me like they are the really incompetent party here.
Mt advice to him is that in the UK there is now a substantial stock of public domain recordings of classical music that he could play without paying anyone at all.
(At least until/unless the term extensionists get their way - and that hasn't happened yet.)
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Re: Re: Re: Remember
If the agencies are collecting more money, then of course the artists are going to earn more.
Sure, the mall could only play certain artists, that would work too. But in any case, don't blame the agencies for simply carrying out the wishes of their clients (artists).
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Re: Remember
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re: Dave Nattriss [I spy for the BPI]
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
God damn it, NO IT ISN'T!!! Even pro-copyright economists agree that the purpose of copyright is a balance between creator and user privelages so as to more greatly benefit THE PUBLIC. The focused beneficiary of copyright is ALWAYS supposed to be the general public, not the creator. Consequentialists concurr.
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I've no idea what you are talking about in your second paragraph.
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Re: Re: Remember
The disconnect here is you. You don't seem to realize that a rational, sane person sees no additional value from you added when they play the radio, so they see no reason to pay. As it should be. If you want to keep collecting money, you need to get your ass off the Internet and start actually working.
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
The reality is most creators go down the money route because they need to earn a living.
No copyright is all about creating a tradeable asset that can be exploited by middlemen. When it was invented only middlemen were allowed to hold it. Later they allowed the authors to hold it initially - but since the author could do nothing with it it was almost always sold outright to the middlemen who have - until very recently - been monopoly customers of the creator as well as monopoly suppliers to the public.
Most creators go down what you call "the money route" because they have been brainwashed for 300 years by the middlemen into believing that it is their only/best way to make a living.
Nothing wrong with that.
There is plenty wrong with it. It is immoral - there is no moral right to have your cake and eat it.
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But guess what? I still pay the parking meters, because I don't have any choice. My dogs need to go the dog beach, so every once in a while I'm forced to pay. I could choose to NOT go to the dog beech and let my beloved animals get fat and unhealthy....but I don't want to. So I pay $4.50/hour to park in a public space my taxes already paid for.
See how that works? I DO NOT agree with the practice, yet I have to pay....
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"Copyright is not a mechanism to protect creator's rights" - of course it is! It is about giving you control of what happens to your work, by making it the legal default that you own all rights to it.
"Copyright is a mechanism to get artists to create MORE art for the benefit of the public" - not necessarly. If the artist chooses to use copyright to make money from their work, which means they are more likely to continue creating it (because it's self-supporting), then sure, but copyright isn't only about this.
"The idea seems to be the creators think that if their creations are used to make other people money, they automagically deserve a cut." How is that stupid?! It seems perfectly fair to me. I'm happy to give my work away for non-commercial use, but if someone makes money from it, why can't I get a share?! This is common practise in many creative industries.
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It is not stealing. It is the infringement of a monopoly right. The monopoly right may be legal - but it is not moral- and pursuing people like this is most certainly not fair.
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If you don't like the licensing laws, simply don't listen to the music that is affected by them. It's very easy to opt-out!
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Re: Remember
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Re: Re: Re: Happy
Keep up, will ya?
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Anyway, no, you do not have to pay. Catch a bus to the beach. Hire a cab. Ask a friend to take you over. Get 'rid of your dogs! Or as you say, just don't go there. "I don't want to" - exactly - it's your choice. You are not forced in any way to pay.
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re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
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Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
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There are no 'mafia' actions going on. If you don't like the rules, simply don't use their music.
Whereas the 'mafia' would force you to use the music (and thus pay for it). Completely different.
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Re: Re: Re: PRS v PPL
Shall we start calling you TAM Sr. ?
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Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
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Ah, but as Mark Hammond points out (comment 99) - it seems like you work for the music business. Is that Facebook link you/the same Dave?
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Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Wrong. Copyright is about providing an incentive for creators to create. It coincidentally happens to provide some limited control over what happens to the work...but not very much.
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Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
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Re: re: Dave Nattriss [I spy for the BPI]
Go into a UK supermarket - there are racks of CDs still being sold. Go onto iTunes, there are millions of tracks being sold.
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I care about creators getting paid for their work. I strongly dislike the greed of record companies and agencies who do their best to extort money out of their consumer base time and time again. The PPL hardly make it clear to shops, businesses etc that they need a licence. Maybe they should enclose a leaflet with each radio sold to let people know what the law is eh? Other industries and laws are made clear, it only seems to be the music business who are so 'grey' and unclear about how to operate. It makes sense now, you work in the music business.
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Re:
The fact is that the barber didn't understand UK music licensing yet went ahead with playing commercial music to the public at his premises, but hadn't paid a license fee and got caught.
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I think BPI distort figures - have a look at this:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090904/1819236116.shtml
one of many pieces. The BPI are primarily law enforcement over music business - their goal is to sue in simple terms.
re - millions of tracks being sold - maybe!! but for a fraction of the price they used to be when record companies didn't have i-tunes / amazon - 79p for a single now legally when it used to be about £3 for a single in the shops.
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Yes, it would be helpful if the rules/laws were clearer, though if you just assume it's OK to do something with someone else's property (their work), you only have yourself to blame. I don't think anything is unclear if you actually bother to find out, and if you're running a business, it is your legal responsibility to do so.
http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Why-you-need-a-licence/
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With the meters, I was asking because the fact they have them at all shows that the parking spaces are not (fully) covered by your taxes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Remember
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Do you really think it's good that any privileged entity (corporation or person) should be able to exert the power of the state against all others to constrain their cultural liberty concerning a given work? Even for a year, let alone a century. Nice to have such power if you're into power, but whether it is 'good' is another matter, especially if you're on the receiving end of such power wielded by a psychopathic corporation looking for statutory damages in excess of a million dollars.
And all you were doing was sharing some music...
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My point and it seems the point of everyone else in this post is the PPL/BPI/RIAA/MAFIA are greedy, shady, act 'unlawfully', 'unethically' and as stated at the top of this article header, design a system to trip you (the common man) up. The music business has nasty morals and simply wants money any way it can, even attacking people who made honest mistakes. Please go back and finish your work for your music business clients - they should have enough money to pay you, for now.
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And by the way, recorded music is not a dead business in the slighest. UK single sales are higher than ever before:
Well be careful to be accurate then. The AC said: The music business can't make money selling records/CDs
Your response relates to downloaded singles - that is a quite different thing from what the AC referred to.
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The level to which you are naive and logically simplistic is breathtaking. My city government is double dipping on the parking spaces because they can get away with it, not because they need to. The fact that the spaces are covered by taxes is laughable. When they sold the metering rights to the private company, my city/state taxes were not reduced. GASP! How can that BE!!??
"If you continue to abide by the rules, then YOU ARE AGREEING TO THEM. If you don't agree to them, don't go along with them."
Oh, COME ON! You can't be THAT simple, can you? The whole point of punishment through the law is to get people to obey laws they don't agree with....
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Dave, Dave, Dave.
Which scenario is more harmful to an artist?
A) A non-music related business (eg., a hairdresser) plays music which nets them 1 paying customer, however no one who was involved in the creation of said music is paid.
B) A business does not play music.
Think about it. No really, *think*. (That is to say, don't parrot what you've been trained to say in the face of reason.)
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You see, my refusal to tip wouldn't have an impact on the situation, except to adversely harm the waitress even more than they're already harmed by the practice. Refusing to tip wouldn't support my principle, just as refusing to pay wouldn't support his principal (if he has any principals about this issue, which is in doubt).
So paying wouldn't be against his principles (if he has any about this issue) and more than my actions negate my principles.
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Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss [I spy for the BPI]
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What about the stories of collection societies coming after businesses that play only UNLICENSED music and INDEPENDENT artists? Is it right in you mind that these parasite collection societies demand payment on music that they have NO control over just because there is a chance that some piece of music that they control [i]might[/i] be played?
These asshats make it so that there is no chance to opt-out.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Now your showing your true colors
Try joining the conversation. We would all appreciate that!
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Horses:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5061004/Woman-who-plays-cla ssical-music-to-soothe-horses-told-to-get-licence.html
and
Garage:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi /uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7029892.stm
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Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
By paying a fee and essentially buying a license, you enter into a contract with the licenser, which means you have implicitly agreed with the terms of the license. If you didn't then you wouldn't have paid.
Nobody is double or triple charging. Each fee is for a different thing. The radio station pays a license fee to broadcast the music directly to the general public. If a middleman such as a barber wants to come in and change this flow, they have to have an agreement in place too. The radio station has not paid to allow all other businesses to rebroadcast the music. And in the UK the PRS and PPL are two separate organisations - one representing performance/broadcast rights, and one representing publishing rights. They are separate because the artist who recorded a track (and the record label that they might be signed to) isn't necessarily the writer of the track (or the publishing company that the writer might be signed to). Try understanding the music business before claiming 'double and triple' charging.
So if there are people that don't want the music in the shop, don't play it in the shop! It's up the business owner to decide if they want to pay for the music broadcast - whether they think it will make them more sales or less. If you believe it will have an overall negative effect, then that's your view, but this barber wanted music in his shop.
Just because you're used to, as an individual, not having to pay for access to radio stations, it does not mean you have any right to free radio.
It's not racketeering because nobody is being forced to listen to the music. If the business owner doesn't like it, he just needs to stop broadcasting the music!
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Re: point 131
Do you think the barber is really having music in his shop to increase his sales???? Maybe, he wants to simply play his radio and maybe his customers may like to hear the radio.
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My response is still the same to anyone that would try make me pay up: Fruit your hole. Leave me alone.
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Re: Re: Please care somewhere else
For one you could rightly point out that a "reproduction" through digital or analog means is obviously not a performance. I am not sure how UK law got stretched to this ridiculous conclusion but it is self evident to everyone here except you that there is something inherently wrong with this.
You spew on about the law but the purpose of this post was the question which you can't seem to wrap you head around. There is a way to inform and not stifle or control the discussion. I am hoping you will figure it out someday!
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Why not just not use restaurants that don't pay their staff a fair amount, if you care that much about how much they earn? Or do what most people do and tip when you get good service (but not when you get bad service).
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On your Facebook profile on 30 May, you shared a link that contained Iron Man film footage and music (that may be infringing copyright). Do you realise that in posting this and sharing it you could be guilty of copyright infringement?
Mike
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Re: Re: I see your true colors
You really think your engaging people with this? Oh wait! We are all "pirates" and selling CD's isn't dead! Ohhh no, in fact more and more young people are buying CD's everyday. Soon Ipods will phase out because CD players with their physical $20 media was always inherently better.
Alright you have convinced me Dave, you are special kind of idiot.
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You're hosting it on your Facebook page and distributing material that could be infringing copyright.
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Re:
But in the UK you do need a license to play music publicly - it was made part of the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act of 1988, Mike.
Anything else?
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Re: Re: point 131
In any case, it's the risk the business owner takes. They don't have to take the risk if they don't want to.
But the fact is, in the UK, the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act of 1988 states that if recorded music is played in public, every play of every recording requires the permission of the owner of the copyright in that recording.
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http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/ukpga_19880048_en_2#pt1-ch1-pb2-l1g6
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Consider reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
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http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Why-you-need-a-licence/
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I didn't ignore everything you said, I simply had nothing else to say to it. Grow up.
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Seriously?
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Re:
(1) Where the copyright in a literary, dramatic or musical work is infringed by a performance at a place of public entertainment, any person who gave permission for that place to be used for the performance is also liable for the infringement unless when he gave permission he believed on reasonable grounds that the performance would not infringe copyright.
So, if he thought he had all right right licenses, i.e., the believed on reasonable grounds that the performance would not infringe, then he's all clear, yes? :)
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No, I don't believe that's right. What happened in THIS case though, if you read the original article, was that the barber did broadcast licensed music in his shop, which was why he got fined.
You simply opt-out by not playing licensed music. They can't make you get a license if you never play it.
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Re: Seriously?
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I already pay for the parking spaces through city and state taxes that go to maintain roads and curbs. I also already pay for the beaches and parks, including the dog beach, where these meters have been put in place. I also pay for the right to use my car in the city in the form of a city stick, and in the state with my license and license sticker. Yet, to take my dogs (which I also had to get a city tag for both of them) to the beach I've paid for in the car I've been taxed on, I THEN have to pay for the parking spot I've already paid for.
Now....AGAIN....I didn't say anyone was forcing me to drive or take my dogs to the beach....but I've already fucking PAID for the privelage of doing so! So, if I decide to put up with my corrupt ass govt. and pay for the meters every once in a while, that DOES NOT mean I agree with the principle behind paying for them. Jesus Christ, how is this REALLY that difficult. I've got two terrible possibilities to choose from:
1. Not using all the shit I've been forced to pay for through taxation
2. Paying the meters that shouldn't be there
Just because I choose one of the two terrible things doesn't mean I AGREE with it....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Now your showing your true colors
P.S. Random recollections don't count.
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Dave - you're being SO pedantic. Yes, offices do have a public reception area, though 'the main private part' is still accessed by visitors. You work for the music business which seems to have conditioned your outlook. Another 'AC' seems to have highlighted you 'sharing' material that is copyrighted (Iron Man/Lego/Les Miserables). I would believe you are as guilty as the barber as you didn't have a licence to 'broadcast' that material. Have you ever lent a CD to anyone by the way because that's not allowed either....
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Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
Weird. Then why do you support gov't sanctioned bodies who have a mandate to demand cash from any company playing music, and who do so with gov't set rates?
That's the exact opposite of an open market where people can charge for their work as they wish.
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Hi Dave. Have you looked at Fran Nevrkla's salary lately? Once you do that, then come back and tell me how much PPL is interested in supporting musicians and how much is about lining the pockets of execs.
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The horse story is a spin. The license is required because it's a business with more than two people, which is how the UK law currently stands - "Because her stables, the Malthouse Equestrian Centre in Bushton, Wilts, employs more than two people it is treated in the same way as shops, bars and cafés which have to apply for a licence to play the radio... Rather than pay the fee, she now leaves the radio off except on Sundays when she is alone at the stable yard."
Seems fine to me.
With the garages case, I don't see the problem here either. The PRS claimed the music could be heard by customers, which means it was being played in public (as defined by the law).
The company "said it has a 10 year policy banning the use of personal radios in the workplace", in which case, they should pass the fines onto the employees that broke the ban.
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Re: Re:
If you are right then the Pirate Bay is perfectly legal - as that is all they ever do...
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No, he didn't because he didn't pay up entirely.
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Are you going to respond to points 160 & 161? Of course you're innocent and we're all wrong!
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Re: Re: Happy
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
You keep repeating this point, and it seems like you actually believe it. It's a bit surprising that there really are people this naive in the world. He paid because he had no choice. That does not mean he agrees with it.
By paying a fee and essentially buying a license, you enter into a contract with the licenser, which means you have implicitly agreed with the terms of the license. If you didn't then you wouldn't have paid.
Agreeing to a contract at the point of a gun (i.e., the threat of a huge fine for doing something as simple as turning on the radio) is not the same thing as a mutually beneficial transaction agreed upon by mutually consenting parties.
Nobody is double or triple charging. Each fee is for a different thing. The radio station pays a license fee to broadcast the music directly to the general public. If a middleman such as a barber wants to come in and change this flow, they have to have an agreement in place too.
That absolutely is double and triple charging. The very same broadcast -- which has already been paid for -- is being paid for again. It's the very definition of double and triple charging.
They are separate because the artist who recorded a track (and the record label that they might be signed to) isn't necessarily the writer of the track (or the publishing company that the writer might be signed to). Try understanding the music business before claiming 'double and triple' charging.
Indeed, but PRS and PPL already get paid from the radio station broadcasts. This absolutely is double dipping.
So if there are people that don't want the music in the shop, don't play it in the shop!
I love this line of argument for the sheer naivete of it.
It's up the business owner to decide if they want to pay for the music broadcast - whether they think it will make them more sales or less.
Music in shops has little to nothing to do with it increasing sales. I love this fable that the industry repeats and which has apparently brainwashed young Davey here. Music in shops is not about selling more at all. It's about keeping the staff from going nutty in the silence.
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It seems pretty clear that Dave works for the music business (which he admits - points 99 & 107). Dave has also another for the body of UK music industry associations "The Music Business Forum" and in simple terms I guess they pay him so he adheres to their practices. So in answer to your point, he is getting paid. As for personality disorder, I'm no doctor but judging by the comments on this post, his arguments are against everyone elses here.
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Re: Re: Remember
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Is this how angry dude's are formed, when a Dark Helmet goes supernova and then collapses in on his self?
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I'm confused - if the music played at the barbershop was already licensed and paid for by the radio station, why does the hairdresser have to pay again?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/2133426.stm
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Re: Re: Re: Please care somewhere else
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If you truly believe you've already paid for the parking space and that your city is corrupt, move to another city. If you just go along with it, you are as bad as them.
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(from another AC)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
In the UK, the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act of 1988 states that if recorded music is played in public, every play of every recording requires the permission of the owner of the copyright in that recording. You may not think this is fair or right, but it is the law as it currently stands, and that's why the barber got fined.
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A large portion of this site and discussions are about unjust, unmoral and stupid laws that need to be changed - obviously this is one of them.
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(from yet another AC)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
The barber and his clients are all a part of the general public. Now... explain to me why he should have to pay 2 diff placed to obtain licensing? Why not have it all under one umbrella and make it simple?
By the way... I'm never going to pay anyone to turn on my radio... Why? because I have come to realize that the laws put in place are there only to benefit the people that enforce them, not the people that actually have lives to live and bills to pay. Most of the laws on the books are no longer based on common sense anymore... They are bases on a fantasy that people give a shit about the government and each other.
Dave... If I thought I could get away with it... I would kill all of the executives of all of the 'licensing' groups and burn the buildings to the ground. They have no purpose on this planet other than to line their pockets with money they did not earn. I used to be a DJ and had to pay ASCAP and BMI. I stopped paying when I found out they were not paying the artists for the work. They kept the money for themselves. Something to think about there.
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It promotes music because it means artists get paid for their work in the way they have chosen to.
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If an artist creates something and they decide that they want to license it (i.e. a license is required, which may have a fee depending on who is using it and what they're using it for) when being played in a public place, what's wrong with that? Nobody forces the owner of the public place to play the artist's work.
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Well, fuck you very much then, shithead. This is an example of the "if you don't like it leave" mentality that pisses me the fuck off. Just because you happen to agree with how it's done NOW doesn't mean I have to leave or I'm "as bad as them". That pussy shit doesn't get bad things changed.
No. Instead, I decide to continue talking to people about this stuff, rallying support, voting, and generally trying to raise hell over this. And you have the balls to tell me I'm bad if I don't leave? Have you no respect for freedom and the process by which democratic laws are revised, changed, and altered?
Do you have any concept of how insulting it is to tell an interested member of the public that he's "as bad as them" just because he's working to change things internally? Good to see fascism and nationalism is alive and well in the UK....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Of course he had a choice. He didn't have to play the music at all. Then he wouldn't have to pay. HE HAD A CHOICE!
"Agreeing to a contract at the point of a gun (i.e., the threat of a huge fine for doing something as simple as turning on the radio) is not the same thing as a mutually beneficial transaction agreed upon by mutually consenting parties."
It's quite easy to simply not turn the radio on, Mike. There was no gun-point hold-up - you are being ridiculous now. If you don't agree with the terms of what you're paying for, DON'T PAY.
"That absolutely is double and triple charging. The very same broadcast -- which has already been paid for -- is being paid for again. It's the very definition of double and triple charging."
No, what was paid for was the license to broadcast the music to individuals in domestic/private places, not in commercial public places. There is a difference, whether you like it or not.
"Indeed, but PRS and PPL already get paid from the radio station broadcasts. This absolutely is double dipping."
No, because they are being paid for a different thing by the radio stations than by the business owners. Personal and commercial licenses rarely have the same cost. If I want have Sky Sports (satellite) TV in my home, it costs around £25/month. If I own a pub and want to show it there, it costs hundreds a month. The license that I am paying for is different depending on the place that the broadcast takes place. As a listener, radio stations are kind enough to pay the license fee for the music they broadcast so that I don't have to personally pay it (but if the technology existed, they could charge me instead, just like with pay TV). But the fees they pay for this do not cover public broadcasts, and the law states that the owner of the public place has to pay for the different license for this.
"Music in shops is not about selling more at all. It's about keeping the staff from going nutty in the silence."
Fine, so play it for that reason instead, but accept that the public will still hear it, whether or not they want to, and thus an appropriate license still needs to be paid.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
You would murder if you thought you could get away with it? I think you need to be committed to an institution and not arguing on this site, if you truly believe that.
With BMI and ASCAP, they claim they do collect royalties for their members ("ASCAP is the only performing rights organization in the U.S. owned and run by songwriters, composers and music publishers", "Broadcast Music, Inc. collects license fees from businesses that use music, which it distributes as royalties to songwriters, composers & music publishers"). Are you saying they are liars?! How exactly did you find out that they weren't paying artists?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
So you believe there is no problem with denying an individual the ability to make use of their own products (radio) to capture public goods (radio waves) on their own property?
Interesting.
It's quite easy to simply not turn the radio on, Mike. There was no gun-point hold-up - you are being ridiculous now. If you don't agree with the terms of what you're paying for, DON'T PAY.
I see. You say this as if before he bought the radio he had to sign an agreement. He did not.
When the Mafia stops by your shop and says you need to pay up for "protection" to make sure "nothing bad happens," does the store owner who pays up "agree" with the mafia?
No, what was paid for was the license to broadcast the music to individuals in domestic/private places, not in commercial public places. There is a difference, whether you like it or not.
No doubt. We all recognize what the law says. You can stop repeating it. My point all along has been how nonsensical the law is. You have not responded to that. Any time anyone calls you on it you resort back to "but that's the law!" That's not an answer.
Fine, so play it for that reason instead, but accept that the public will still hear it, whether or not they want to, and thus an appropriate license still needs to be paid.
Yes, and once we had a law that said slavery was okay and that alcohol was not. And you would have been among those who said "the law is the law, so deal with it." And you would have been rightly mocked, as you are here.
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Re: UK TV Licences
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Mind you, even they admitted that they were wrong when they tried to charge a woman for singing to herself whilst she was stacking shelves.
I'm surprised that you think it is OK.
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Thanks repeatedly for quoting the law to everyone here and being so self-righteous. For the 4th time or so, any chance of responding to comment 168 where you can also have the opportunity to be self-righteous as it concerns YOU.
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> creator's rights" - of course it is! It is
> about giving you control of what happens to
> your work, by making it the legal default
> that you own all rights to it.
This is nonsense, at least regarding U.S. copyright law. The U.S. Constitution sets out the clear purpose of copyright law and it's not to give artists control of what happens to their work:
Article I, Section 8
Congress shall have the power... to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
So you see, in the U.S., the stated purpose and legal basis of copyright is exactly what Dark Helmet said it was: to encourage artists to create MORE art for the benefit of the public.
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Now calm down.
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In the U.S. there used to be laws that said black people had to sit in the back of the bus, too. (And couldn't eat in restaurants with whites or stay in the same hotels or drink from the same water fountains or go to the same schools.)
Did the existence of those laws make them right, moral or ethical?
Did the fact that the vast majority of black people obeyed those laws mean they agreed with them in principle?
I hope you're finally starting to comprehend the fundamental idiocy of your position.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
FLAUNTED ARRRGH PLEASE
the word you are looking for is "flouted". Flaunted means something quite different....
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"No, if you're in an office you're not playing the radio to the public, so you don't have 'performance' licensing to worry about."
and
"The rule is actually to play the radio to the public (shops are open to the public), not just to play it at your business."
Is this yet another licensing form where the stable and staff are not considered private?
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"No, that wasn't what I said at all."
"If you truly believe you've already paid for the parking space and that your city is corrupt, move to another city."
I mean....are you kidding me, or do you not see how you owe me an apology?
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Point 214 / Dave Nattriss
Did the existence of those laws make them right, moral or ethical?
Did the fact that the vast majority of black people obeyed those laws mean they agreed with them in principle?
I hope you're finally starting to comprehend the fundamental idiocy of your position."
Well written that man? - what do you think about that Dave? And what do you think about the repeated request for you to justify comments made in point(s) 160 + 161?
You've worked for the music business and your outlook having worked for them has made you blinkered to modern society - GET REAL, WAKE UP & SMELL THE COFFEE! I'll share my cup with you as it's copyright free!
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on a related note
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
I think he was just trying to convey the level of anger that the actions of the groups you are defending have created. If you don't understand why people are so angry then I think you have a problem yourself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Would it be different if he let someone borrow a portable radio and tune it as they desired?
Why does a publisher have rights to a broadcast even if I buy that argument?
I am confused as to how this is relevant, he tried to comply and because it makes little sense he made a mistake. I am sure if he had all the facts neatly presented up front he may have made a different decision, but we will never know because a cryptic system made difficult through chicanery and legal speak hid that he needed two licenses. He made a decision based on what knowledge he had. This mistake cost him an arm and a leg and he was trying to comply.
Are you able to never make a mistake? If so can I hire you? It just seems excessive for someone trying to be legal.
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People aren't getting a signal from my radio to play on theirs. I'm only receiving the signal. I'm not sending it out for others to receive.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
If they say that you owe back taxes would you pay them (agreeing with them that you owe money) and then attempt to prove that you don't (but wait, if you paid them you obviously owed them money).
Or would you refuse to pay them and end up in jail?
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Secondly, limiting the copyright on an artist's work for them is *not* going to encourage them to make more work for the public. If they want to create work for the public, they can just do that and give away the copyright to public bodies straight away.
I understand what you are saying about the wording, though the fact that it is securing the exclusive rights for the authors/inventors, even if only for a limited time, shows that it is about respecting that they do have rights to their work. In the UK, copyright generally expires 50 years after the work is published/released:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988
I don't know (or in this particular case care) what the period is for the US at the moment.
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> music to the public that come into the offices,
> you do need the appropriate licenses.
Earlier you claimed that the reason for this is that the business needs to pay because the music draws in customers. Now we're talking about offices and business that are playing music entirely incidental to the business. Who chooses a mechanic based on what radio station he's listening to in the back while he works on the car? No one goes to the DMV because of the music some clerk is playing on her iPod down the hall.
It's a specious fantasy argument drummed up by these collections societies to add a sheen of legitimacy to justify what is essentially an old-style OC shakedown scheme.
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> IS NOT ABOUT
> THE U.S.! Please
> will you Americans
> realise that
> you are not the
> only country on
> the planet.
You didn't limit your comment to any one jurisdiction. You made a blanket claim about the purpose of copyright. I merely pointed out to you that such a blanket claim with no jurisdictional qualification is erroneous. That hardly equates to a belief that we're the only country on the planet.
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Coming from someone in the UK, that's absolutely AWESOME advice....
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Re: Re: Re: UK TV Licences
Not when you buy it, but they do drive around in vans with special equipment that can detect from the street whether you have a TV running in your home. If they detect one that isn't licensed, they send you a fine letter.
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If you can't/won't recognise the difference, arguing with YOU is a complete waste of time.
And there is no issue here of anyone charging for music that they are not the rights holder of. As in the original article that this page is taken from, the barber was found to have been playing particular tracks that were the PPL *WAS* a representative of.
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> from the
> very head
> line of
> this
> article,
> it was
> about
> the UK.
The article was, but your comment wasn't. At least not facially. You and Dark Helmet had drifted to a more general philosophical discussion of copyright law at that point.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Horses
> yes, it does get boring.
Here you go. Now stop being an asshat.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5061004/Woman-who-plays-classical -music-to-soothe-horses-told-to-get-licence.html
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If they obeyed the laws *AND* didn't make any attempt to do anything about them, then yes, they effectively agreed with them. Nobody forced them to put up with the laws.
And as history tells us, they didn't put up with them, and so the laws got abolished:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_segregation#United_States
"Institutionalized racial segregation was ended as an official practice by the efforts of such civil rights activists as Clarence Mitchell, Jr., Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King Jr., working during the period from the end of World War II through the passage of the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 supported by President Lyndon B. Johnson. Many of their efforts were acts of non-violent civil disobedience aimed at disrupting the enforcement of racial segregation rules and laws, such as refusing to give up a seat in the black part of the bus to a white person (Rosa Parks), or holding sit-ins at all-white diners.
By 1968 all forms of segregation had been declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court and by 1970, support for formal legal segregation had dissolved. Formal racial discrimination was illegal in school systems, businesses, the American military, other civil services and the government. Separate bathrooms, water fountains and schools all disappeared and the civil rights movement had the public's support."
So what got things changed? Disobeying the laws. Whereas simply obeying them did absolutely nothing.
So if the barber was against the principle of having to get both a performance and publishing license to play commercial music in his public commercial premises, pay one of the license fees was not the best way to show it. But at no point has he said he was against the principles - he said he hadn't paid the PPL because he didn't know he had to, not because he objected to it. He hasn't said anything about having already paid the PRS fee because he didn't agree with it - in fact he had made sure that it was paid, implying he was comfortable with it or else he wouldn't have done so.
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@Dave Nattriss
It would be very interesting to hear your response and justification to point(s) 160 + 161? It seems like you are ignoring this because you are guilty, a hypocrite, too high & mighty or all the previously mentioned?
AC
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Seriously? According to what you said earlier, Rosa Parks should have given up her seat as the local law required! And how is her non-violent civil disobedience any different than those that utilize torrents in part to disrupt the enforcement of laws they see as unjust?
See, you get it, you just don't KNOW you get it....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
It's irrelevant really as that's not what's happened here. Radio waves specifically sent by someone are not 'public goods', they are copyrighted intellectual property, just like physical or digital recordings.
As for what you can do on your own property, the law has never worked like that. In neither the US nor the UK nor many other countries can you murder someone on your own property, for instance (there are sometime exceptions for self-defence but they apply whether in public or private). If you are in a country, you have to obey the laws or face the consequences.
"You say this as if before he bought the radio he had to sign an agreement. He did not."
He didn't need to. UK laws regarding broadcast of copyrighted work to the public already exist. It is every individual's and every business's responsibility to know the laws of the country they are in. Ignorance does not hold up in court (unless you are very lucky!).
"When the Mafia stops by your shop and says you need to pay up for "protection" to make sure "nothing bad happens," does the store owner who pays up "agree" with the mafia?"
This has no relevance to this case. Nobody forced the barber to play the music. He just got fined for not having the legally required license for it. He chose to play the music.
"My point all along has been how nonsensical the law is. You have not responded to that. Any time anyone calls you on it you resort back to "but that's the law!" That's not an answer."
OK, so why do you think it is nonsensical, sorry? Do you not agree that copyright holders should be able to charge as they like for the use of their work? Do you not agree that broadcasting copyrighted work in public should be treated differently than doing so in private?
"Yes, and once we had a law that said slavery was okay and that alcohol was not. And you would have been among those who said "the law is the law, so deal with it."
No, I'd've said if you don't like it, simply don't partake in it. Comparing slavery and prohibition to music broadcast licensing is ridiculous though.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: UK TV Licences
Not when you buy it,
They do know when you buy it. Every retailer selling a TV fills in a little form with your name and address and sends it back to TV licensing. If the name and address don't match an existing TV licence then you get a letter. They gave up on the detector vans years ago because they don't actually work very well (Esp. with digital/LCD televisions).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
If they say they owed me back taxes but I knew 100% that I didn't, I would send them evidence of this and the matter would be dealt with. It wouldn't get to the point of me having to pay, or refunding and going to jail. I would just get on with resolving the issue.
But in this case, the barber doesn't appear to have objected to the PPL fees at all - he's never said he disagreed with them, and didn't say he thinks they weren't fair or right. He was just a bit shocked because he was ignorant about having to pay them, and so he got a larger fine instead. He made an unfortunate mistake, and maybe now he'll take more care running his business.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
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Re: point 142 / Dave Nattriss
In response to what? Copyright infringement? (points 160/161)
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Dave / point 245
Even though this is hypothetical, how would you know? You could be arrested or charged depending on how the powers that be decided to act. Bit naive of you to think that situation would never arrive. Maybe the hairdresser thought the same...
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> had to be upheld
> until they were
> stopped.
So basically you think Rosa Parks was wrong when she refused to give up her seat?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: UK TV Licences
> vans years ago because they
> don't actually work very well.
Thanks for the clarification.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
No it isn't - but then again I don't think he was really serious - just exaggerating for effect. The PRS on the other hand were deadly serious about this issue:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/8317952.stm
right up to the point when they realised what a huge own goal it was...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
On behalf of Americans everywhere, please refrain from making soccer analogies (my bad if that was supposed to be a hockey goal...).
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So a business owner can't play music if he wants to listen to it as an end user because someone else might hear it and claim that he's holding a "public performance?" This law is just way too convoluted.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
http://www.prsformusic.com/users/businessesandliveevents/musicforbusinesses/Pages/do ineedalicence.aspx
Note that they do do exceptions for some shops (section 4).
Would it be different if someone brought in a portable radio? Probably not.
If I write a song and I let the PPL take care of my publishing royalties (for a fee out of the income they obtain for me), then they have the authority to act whenever any recordings of my song are broadcast.
He tried to comply by signing up with the Performing Rights Society, but not with Phonographic Performance Limited. It was an unfortunate mistake but a mistake nevertheless. I don't think any legal speak hid anything from him - we don't know how he found out the PRS but he ought to have found out about the PPL at the same time. Or maybe the PRS should have reminded him about the PPL. But it's not their responsibility to do that - it's his.
I've made the odd mistake with my own company, and I've paid for it. I didn't go to the media about it though.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
You can't murder someone, since "murder" by definition is the illegal taking a human life, but many parts of the US currently operate under Castle Doctrines, meaning you can use lethal force on your own property in very broad circumstances. In Mississippi, for example, I can legally kill someone if I catch them vandalizing my car.
And before you start in with more moaning about American centrism, allow me to remind you that you DID say "the US nor the UK."
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright,_Designs_and_Patents_Act_1988#Miscellaneous
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"I've made the odd mistake with my own company, and I've paid for it. I didn't go to the media about it though."
Maybe the hairdresser didn't go to the media? Maybe the press picked up on this?
Dave did not reply to points 160 & 161....
AC
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Re: Re: TV Licence
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In terms of a public performance, I understand that it's just a member of the public that can hear it, on premises that are accessible by the public, as opposed to employees in a private office.
And yes, that is correct regarding the law. If you play music publicly (i.e. where the public can hear it), as part of your commercial business, you need to pay a license fee or risk a fine.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
We're 250 comments in and you still haven't figured it out?
Do you not agree that copyright holders should be able to charge as they like for the use of their work?
I already asked you in the comment you ignored how a gov't granted agency with gov't set prices has anything to do with your claim that copyright holders get to charge what they want. They do not. Why do you continue to post this strawman?
Furthermore, as someone who believes in an open and free market (as you falsely claimed to), I believe that the market sets the price -- and that's the intersection of supply and demand. A rights holder can try to set the price, but if the product is in abundant supply, then that price gets pushed down by the market. But the government has stepped in and denied market forces in htis situation.
Do you not agree that broadcasting copyrighted work in public should be treated differently than doing so in private?
Turning on a radio is not "broadcasting."
No, I'd've said if you don't like it, simply don't partake in it. Comparing slavery and prohibition to music broadcast licensing is ridiculous though.
No one was comparing the two. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of your "the law is the law" argument. You should read the excellent new book "Property Outlaws" that discusses how civil disobedience has *always* been a key element in reforming property laws. The "just don't do it" argument doesn't play. One of the ways you get laws changed is by showing the ridiculous outcomes -- such as requiring a barber to pay two separate licenses to turn on a radio.
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Read the original story. The inspector, as a member of the public, went into the shop and heard PPL licensed music when the shop didn't have a PPL license.
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But this is all OK, because that's what the law says. And ignorance of the law, and principles, and stuff. How am I doing, Dave?
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It's not like you are forced to listen to music that requires payment, or forced to play it in your shop. If you don't like the charges, just don't use the music. If everyone stopped playing and (licensing) the music, the PPL might look at lowering or abolishing its fees.
But it's not the same as racism. Not in the slightest. Racism is simply unfair. The right to charge what *you* want for the right to broadcast *your* music is not.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Really? The state law still thinks that's OK?! Does it happen often?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
So by your logic if I walk down the street with a portable radio and walk into a business I need a license from two sources for this "broadcast"?
It seems from the link you supplied like a good number of people in the UK need to be sued for failure to comply. I know I'd protest a law written as such and talk to my representatives about getting it changed. I know I do this now for the laws in the US I see as unjust and out of scope.
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"Because THERE ARE BAD LAWS."
Fixed that for you.
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A few good points
2) He does seem prepared to accept American solutions, such as "Opt out" and "Don't contribute", despite his adherance to a party line. We did, in truth, respond to King George and Parliment in just such a manner,ohhh, many years ago. Taxes? We did't need no stinkin" taxes.. so maybe there is something to his point there.
and finally 3),the US did wholesale ignore the UK a second time at the turn of the last century, when patents and copyrights on their processes and products went without compensation,to our benefit. So despite some awkward moments, perhaps there are some points here to consider. Just because he's wrong to support such rediculous ideas on the purpose of Copyright, doesn't mean he won't, in the future, take a more open view when the disputive influences brought on by the Net get a little more sorted out and money starts to flow in a manner that folks like him are more prone to recognize.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
We're 250 comments in and you still haven't figured it out?"
Nope, I'm afraid not. It makes perfect sense to me that if you play the song that I wrote and my friend recorded to the public at your business premises (which enhances your working conditions and/or your customer satisfaction), that we are each paid at the amounts that we have set, and if we want to use agencies to help monitor this and collect the fees, what's wrong with that?
"how a gov't granted agency with gov't set prices has anything to do with your claim that copyright holders get to charge what they want"
Um, well, the copyright holders have signed agreements with that agency, that's how. Either they have chosen the rates themselves, or they've agreed to the rates of the agency. In any case, an agreement, that they had a choice about, is in place.
"I believe that the market sets the price -- and that's the intersection of supply and demand. A rights holder can try to set the price, but if the product is in abundant supply, then that price gets pushed down by the market. But the government has stepped in and denied market forces in htis situation."
Not true - there's nothing stopping another company starting their own agency. The law doesn't give any special privileges to the PRS or PPL, they are just the most popular services of their kind in the UK and because they cover the vast majority of popular music and have agreements with lots of public venues, it makes sense to sign up with them either as an artist or broadcaster.
"Turning on a radio is not 'broadcasting'."
Sorry but if you are running a business and the public can hear the licensed music on the radio at your premises, then it is broadcasting in so much that you need a license to do it legally. Whatever the term used.
And my 'just don't do it' argument was not 'just don't break the law', but in fact 'don't do the thing that you don't want to pay for'. It's a free market - if you don't like the price of a product (or in this case licensing a product), you don't have to buy it at all.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
No, you don't need the licenses - the business does as its their premises!
And it's not really a case of 'suing', they just need to issue the fines, which it seems they are gradually doing at the moment. If people don't want to pay the fines, they can object and only then will the PPL potentially take them to court. The law that comes into play is that you need permission of the copyright holder to play their music in public - I doubt that one is going to be easily changed.
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I understand that this has changed over time - for example, the 1988 Act grants "moral rights," which didn't exist in the U.K. previously, and still do not exist in the U.S. at all (except for painting and sculpture).
Still, it seems to suggest that the ultimate purpose of copyright in the U.K. is to increase the works available to the public, by granting finincial incentives to create. Just like the U.S., but unlike e.g. Europe.
By the way: In the U.S., playing the radio in a business is exempt from licensing fees of any kind. (Jukeboxes and CD's are another matter.) The Supreme Court actually decided it, but I'm at work and can't remember the case off the top of my head.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Okay, seriously, read a book on Rosa Parks and the Civil Rights Movement, because you have no idea what the hell you're talking about....
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Ok. By the same logic, if I play your song at my business and it gets you attention such that people now what to go to your concert/hire you to write new songs, you are going to pay me right? After all, it enhances your working conditions/salary/living conditions. Nothing wrong with that, right?
Or, wait, does tis only work in one direction?
Um, well, the copyright holders have signed agreements with that agency, that's how. Either they have chosen the rates themselves, or they've agreed to the rates of the agency. In any case, an agreement, that they had a choice about, is in place.
Can you point me to a single collection society (hell, just PPL or PRS) that lets musicians set their own rates? They don't. The rates are set by the Copyright Tribunal in the UK.
Not true - there's nothing stopping another company starting their own agency.
Highly misleading. It is only in the past two years that the European courts rejected national monopolies on collection societies. But because the established players already had a monopoly it's close to impossible for any new entrant to qualify.
The law doesn't give any special privileges to the PRS or PPL, they are just the most popular services of their kind in the UK and because they cover the vast majority of popular music and have agreements with lots of public venues, it makes sense to sign up with them either as an artist or broadcaster.
Both had gov't sanctioned monopolies until the courts broke that up recently, at which point it no longer mattered. Why you ignore this, I do not know.
Sorry but if you are running a business and the public can hear the licensed music on the radio at your premises, then it is broadcasting in so much that you need a license to do it legally. Whatever the term used.
And right back to "the law is good because it's the law." Do you not see how ridiculous that line of argument is?
And my 'just don't do it' argument was not 'just don't break the law', but in fact 'don't do the thing that you don't want to pay for'. It's a free market - if you don't like the price of a product (or in this case licensing a product), you don't have to buy it at all.
There's no free market when you have a government tribunal setting prices, Dave. There's no free market when you have a government granting a monopoly. There's no free market when you have monopoly rights handed out to content creators.
Learn what a free market is before you make yourself look any more foolish.
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Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss [I spy for the BPI]
Oh no, recording industry groups would NEVER just make up numbers!! *rolls eyes* You really are ignorant. Or a shill. Or an ignorant shill.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
-no but it should be the performers obligation to compensate the writer for their work. And the publisher, pretty sure that's the record company THAT THE RADIO STATION IS ALREADY PAYING.
The radio station pays the publisher/record company, who are suppose to pay the performer and the writers (or the performer is supose to pay the writer, depends on the contract), now if the publisher/record company is NOT paying the performer, well that's a different issue.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Those rates are statutory, so the copyright holders are not able to "charge as they like." Most would like to get paid more, I'm sure, but those statutory rates are set by law.
Plus, you have mostly ignored the fact that copyright holders have already charged for that broadcast - they charged the broadcasters themselves (the radio stations). Rights holders are getting paid twice for exactly the same transmission. That's the very definition of "double dipping." If it's the law, then the law should be changed.
Do you not agree that broadcasting copyrighted work in public should be treated differently than doing so in private?
The barber shop isn't a "broadcaster" because they can't select the music, can't decide to skip station ID's or ads, etc.
So, no. Re-broadcasting of a specific radio transmission in public should be no different than doing so in private.
Broadcasting and re-broadcasting are in fact treated differently in the U.S., and we are hardly soft on copyright.
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There you have it. Dave Nattriss thinks Rosa Parks should have walked.
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Re: Re: Remember
Hey, weren't you the one that was saying "if you don't like the fees, don't play the music?"
Now they're not playing the music, and you still want to blame them?
Nice catch-22 there, buddy.
Sorry, but if a PRO's fees are too expensive for businesses to pay, so they don't play music, then ultimately it's the PRO's who are to blame.
...On the other hand, all the music I've ever heard in a mall has been utter crap, so I'm OK with silence.
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Seriously, that's your logic? "You're only a victim with your permission?" By that logic, schoolyard bullies that grab you by the arm and smack you with it, yelling "Why'd you hit yourself? Why'd you hit yourself?" should never be blamed since you're going along with it. And if reporting the bugger to the teacher doesn't stop the behaviour, up and change schools.
WTF?
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Re: Re: Comemercials!
The law? Sure. A sane and rational law? No.
Maybe the U.K. should set a statutory license for radio stations to pay businesses for playing their broadcasts. I mean, that makes about as much sense as anything going on now.
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dear dave n.
these types of fees for listening to a radio should never have been allowed to pass muster to begin with.
business are neither broadcasting, nor enabling any sort of public performance when they have a radio on. this is merely the newest craze in collection agencies cashing in while they still can. you can use any sort of justification you would like to say these types of fees and/or fines are acceptable, that does not make it right, it just makes anyone supporting that view point look incredibly stupid.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
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Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
That is supposed to be its purpose. You've been told that the justification for U.S. law is "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts." Now let's look at the rest of the world...
U.K.'s Statute of Anne: "The statute was concerned with the reading public, the continued production of useful literature, and the advancement and spread of education." The full title of the Statute was "An Act for the Encouragement of Learning, by vesting the Copies of Printed Books in the Authors or purchasers of such Copies, during the Times therein mentioned."
WIPO justification for copyright: "The purpose of copyright and related rights is twofold: to encourage a dynamic creative culture, while returning value to creators so that they can lead a dignified economic existence, and to provide widespread, affordable access to content for the public." (Emphasis mine.)
So, I guess this means that copyright isn't doing what it's supposed to, and should be dramatically reformed.
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Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
"Letting the owner/creator of the work choose what happens to it."
This is not even part of copyright law in countries that support "moral rights." They may have some rights in this regard (right to attribution, etc), but those rights are deliberately limited. Because that is not, and never was, the purpose of copyright, anywhere in the world.
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Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
C) A non-music related business (eg., a hairdresser) plays music which nets them lots of paying customers over time, however no one who was involved in the creation of said music is paid over the years.
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Re: dear dave n.
Businesses that use licensed music (whether played from a CD, iPod, online streaming service or from regular radio) to enhance their physical environment, either for employees, customers, or both, should pay for the privilege. This is perfectly fair - recorded music doesn't grow on trees.
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Re: on a related note
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Lending music recordings is perfectly legal in the UK, by the way. It's copying, hiring/renting, public performances (i.e. playing publicly) and/or broadcasting (i.e. over the air or via wires) that are illegal. Try reading the small print on any commercial CD if you don't believe me.
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Re:
And for those radion stations that do have commercials, it's highly unlikely that they will be able to increase their revenue based on business/public plays of their advertising because listening figures don't take those plays into account, as they sample the use of actual individuals' radios, not those used in businesses.
Again, the radio stations pay license fees so that they can broadcast the music to individuals who are listening in private locations (homes, cars etc.). They don't have the license, by default, to broadcast the music in public places. So it's the responsibility of the public places (be they shopping malls, shops, barbers, restaurants, bars, garage showrooms, stables or whatever) to get the required licenses to 'perform' (play) them. That's how the law works here in the UK, so this story is really no big surprise/deal.
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Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
How are you supposed to do this if you're listening to the radio? You can't choose what artists the station plays.
Incidentally, statutory licensing is exactly like the government saying "your wages will be collected by someone else, and they can't charge your clients more than x per hour." Not exactly something to get behind if you're into an "open market."
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Re: Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
You should really go after that radio station that's not paying its licenses then.
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Re: A few good points
It's not just one or the other, as if it were just about protecting the rights of creators, progress would be slowed down, but on the other hand, if it were just about make everything available to everyone, there would be little incentive for people to create things if they don't get any personal gain from it. So the UK law provides a balance that most people who actually create stuff agree is fair.
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Re: Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
In case that is not clear enough: you have completely failed to answer Joe's question.
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Weird example.
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OK, well, that's great for the US, but it's simply not the case in the UK, which is why this whole incident was able to happen. Again, we're not the same. It's interesting to see how our laws differ, but please accept that this is a different country with different laws, that are not necessarily any more right or wrong than your own.
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But the barber had no moral (or legal) right to play licensed music without the permission of the copyright owner as he hadn't got the appropriate license that the copyright owner had stipulated.
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Re: Re: A few good points
So you're against the effort to extend performance rights in the UK? Are you going on the record saying so... or once they're retroactively extended, will you say "the law is the law."
if it were just about make everything available to everyone, there would be little incentive for people to create things if they don't get any personal gain from it.
Of course, plenty of studies have showed the above sentence to be total bunk. The most recent study from the folks at Harvard showed that as copyright law was enforced less, MORE content creation came about.
You should look at Daniel Pink's new book on motivation as well, in which he notes that there are many incentives outside of monetary incentives for creation.
Furthermore, you are making the fundamentally flawed assertion that the only way to get paid for being a content creator is through copyright. We've spent years and years on this site demonstrating business models that do not rely on any such gov't monopoly right.
So are you willing to step back from your unsubstantiated comment that copyright law is somehow necessary to give content creators the incentive to create? The actual evidence says you're wrong.
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> without the permission of the copyright owner
Says who?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Sure, if we've got an agreement along those lines in the licensing contract. If we haven't, you can attempt to negotiate with my licensing agency if you like. But if they or I decide against it, sorry but that's our decision - it's our music to do what we want with.
"Or, wait, does this only work in one direction?"
That really depends on your negotiating skills, Mike. The ball's in your court if you want to try and get it agreed.
"Can you point me to a single collection society (hell, just PPL or PRS) that lets musicians set their own rates? They don't. The rates are set by the Copyright Tribunal in the UK."
Only when there is a dispute. But the point is, musicians don't have to use collection societies if they don't want to. If they don't like the rates being used, they don't have to use them.
Just found this by the way - http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Playing-Music-and-Videos-In-Public/Health--Beauty/
It turns out the barber would have only needed to pay £116.20 ex. VAT per year to have the PPL license to play music from radio and TV at his premises. Hardly a fortune!
"Highly misleading. It is only in the past two years that the European courts rejected national monopolies on collection societies. But because the established players already had a monopoly it's close to impossible for any new entrant to qualify.
Qualify for what, sorry?
"Both had gov't sanctioned monopolies until the courts broke that up recently, at which point it no longer mattered. Why you ignore this, I do not know."
Because as you say, it no longer matters. We're talking about a current case, not an old case.
"There's no free market when you have a government tribunal setting prices, Dave. There's no free market when you have a government granting a monopoly. There's no free market when you have monopoly rights handed out to content creators."
Sure there is. The tribunal has set the prices for one particular society. Not for all of them. http://www.ppluk.com/en/Music-Users/Copyright-Tribunal-Refunds/
There's nothing stopping the barber using an alternative collection society that represents other artists, or just dealing with the artists directly, or only playing his own music that he records himself at the weekend, or not playing any music at all, or just paying the £116.20 which will probably be less than 0.1% of his business' turnover.
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I see. Do you believe that if you buy a radio, you have no moral right to turn it on without paying an additional license?
I see a compelling moral argument in the opposite direction. The laws that you support strip me of my moral right to turn on a radio I legally purchased in my own place of business.
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> your business/increases your sales, you
> still need to respect the wishes of the
> copyright holders of the music you
> choose to play.
That's not what you said earlier. You claimed this was all justified ethically and morally because businesses are using music to draw in customers and make money.
Now you're saying it's justified merely because the artist made the music.
Which is it? You're all over the map here.
And while we're at it, what gives artists the right to get paid over and over again forever for work they did once while no one else in society has that privilege?
When a doctor sets someone's broken leg, she gets paid once for it. She doesn't receive a royalty every time that person earns money using the leg which would otherwise have been useless if not for the doctor's work.
The examples are endless of people whose jobs pay them only once for work they do which gives those for whom they do it an opportunity to derive monetary benefit with it. Yet when it comes to art, there's this presumption that it just makes sense to keep paying people for work they did decades ago.
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give it up. You're arguing with a dinosaur. The collection agencies and all the other 'value added' middle-men will soon either adapt to the changing world or be consigned to the dustbin of history. You and all of us on this site have argued with this tool until we are blue in the face. You can't talk sense to a mule - you get a sore jaw, and the mule just gets pissed - so just declare this thread over and realize some people won't 'ever' get it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Of course they can - they just need to stop using that society. Any rates that have been set by the UK government have been in the case of dispute between the businesses that pay the fees and societies representing the copyright holders. If the copyright holders don't like the rate their society has ended up with, they can just stop using the society and collect the rate they want themselves or using another society instead. They're not forced into those rates.
"Plus, you have mostly ignored the fact that copyright holders have already charged for that broadcast - they charged the broadcasters themselves (the radio stations). Rights holders are getting paid twice for exactly the same transmission. That's the very definition of 'double dipping.' If it's the law, then the law should be changed."
No, that's not true. You're implying that being paid twice means 'double' the amount. The reality is that, for instance, a copyright holder receives around £75 per play of their recording on the big BBC stations, from the stations themselves. Whereas a small business like the barber may only pay £100 or so for the right to play as much music as they like for an entire year. So realistically the artist will receive a few pennies for this, on top of their £75. That is not 'double' dipping.
"The barber shop isn't a 'broadcaster' because they can't select the music,"
Er, yes they can. They can put on a CD, an iPod, fire up Spotify etc. The license that the barber didn't have covered the playing of all music, whether or not broadcast over the radio to the shop.
"can't decide to skip station ID's or ads, etc."
Sure they can, they can mute these if they really want. Or switch to another station. Radio sets *do* have buttons that let you control them.
"Re-broadcasting of a specific radio transmission in public should be no different than doing so in private."
Why, sorry?
And yes, things are different in the UK and US. I'm glad someone's finally picked up on that.
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You ignore that there are many other ways for creators to gain from their work other than pay-per-play. Branding, Swag, Ticket Sales, exclusive access to band members/services/etc, just to name a few.
We should be encouraging those new business models rather than propping up old ones. To do otherwise is to fight the reality of current technology. If you want to use an outdated business model, fine, but it shouldn't be encouraged or protected. The old models didn't need protection when they were technologically relevant (when it was expensive to make copies of recordings).
Fair market prices are the product of supply and demand. If I can make an infinite number of copies of your work and rebroadcast to an infinite number of people, then the fair market price for broadcasts or downloads is 0. You need to sell a scare good (like I just outlined above) and sell that instead.
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SCARCE.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
"And the publisher, pretty sure that's the record company THAT THE RADIO STATION IS ALREADY PAYING." - no, not necessarily. Publishers are usually not also recording companies, though sometimes one might own another. But in most cases they are separate and UK copyright law recognises both the writer/creator and the performer of the recording/live performance.
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Re: Re: dear dave n.
That Said, let the Flame War continue... LOL
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Re: Re:
Since, you know, if you did have to do that it would imply the BBC owned the patent for TV technology.
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Now you're saying it's justified merely because the artist made the music."
In the case of ethics/morals, I'd say both reasons are valid. In the case of the law, the latter is what counts.
"what gives artists the right to get paid over and over again forever for work they did once while no one else in society has that privilege?"
The law does! But I don't agree that nobody else has that privilege. If I start a shop, and then start another as it's going well, and then train my staff to start more stores on my behalf, and eventually end up with a chain, I will get to the point where I get paid over and over again for work that I did at the start of the process.
If I come up with a secret recipe for cookies, and they are so popular that everyone in the country buys them every day, I will 'get paid over and over again forever for work I only did once'. Or if I invent a new clothes hangar that becomes very popular, I will 'get paid over and over again forever for work that I did once'. It's not just 'art', it designs, it's ideas, it's patents... it's all forms of intellectual property. The whole concept of successful business is built upon getting good at something and then 'getting paid over and over again forever for work I did once' at the start of the process. Like a doctor spends years at medical school at great expense so he/she can earn a good salary for the rest of their life once they are qualified. In your example, the doctor would have spent/invested time/money into learning how to set a broken leg in the first place, and then every time she has to do it for a new patient, she gets paid for it again.
"Yet when it comes to art, there's this presumption that it just makes sense to keep paying people for work they did decades ago."
Well, maybe the UK copyright expiry period could be adjusted from 50 years to say, 20 years, or less, but the argument is that if you push it too far, the artists will have less incentive to create new work and society will lose out as a whole.
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Re: Re: A few good points
Time will tell I guess, save your money - cause I've been doing that for while.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: PRS v PPL
And in any case, I didn't say there needed to be more than 2 paragraphs, I just said that because there were only 2 of them, clearly it was not the whole story.
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Re: Re: Re: Remember
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Re: Re: Re: TV Licence
Your classical music advice is great. Or he could just pay the £116.20 annual license fee to the PPL and not have to worry. Hardly an extortionate amount to potentially play over 130,000 licensed tracks over a year.
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Re: Re: Re: TV Licence
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Re: Re: Re: Comemercials!
Maybe they could do that, but I don't think many businesses are actually complaining about the licensing fees. The barber's PPL license would have cost £116.20 ex. VAT per year, which is probably about 0.1% of his turnover. Hardly a fortune.
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Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
And I couldn't really care what the purpose of copyright was devised as 301 years ago. Things have moved on, and more to the point, laws have changed.
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Re: Re: Re: Please care somewhere else
Nope, sorry, playing the recording publicly does count as a 'performance' of the recording. 'Performance', by dictionary definition, can simply mean the act of presenting something, pre-recorded or live.
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Re: Re: Re: I see your true colors
CDs aren't 'dead'. Sales may be declining but that doesn't make them dead. That's all I said, coward.
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Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss [I spy for the BPI]
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Re: Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
Artists aren't forced to use those bodies or the bodies' set rates. Artists can charge whatever they like, be it nothing at all, or a million pounds per play. Nothing forces them to use a particular collection society.
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Re: Re: Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
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Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
No, but you can choose not to play the radio at all.
"statutory licensing is exactly like the government saying 'your wages will be collected by someone else, and they can't charge your clients more than x per hour.'"
Except that in this case you have made the free choice to use the 'someone else'. If you don't like their rates, don't use them.
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But again, if the musicians think Fran is being paid too much, they can renegotiate with the PPL to have the salary reduced, or just stop using the PPL.
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"UK Hairdresser Fined For Playing Music After Not Getting Required License"
which is the reality of the situation. Or maybe even:
"UK Hairdresser Fined For Playing Music After Half-Arsed Attempt To Be Legal"
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But again, I'm just pointing out the laws as they stand in the UK, because I'm aware of them (whereas most people commenting on this clearly are/were not).
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Re: @Dave Nattriss
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Re: Re: point 142 / Dave Nattriss
Sorry but as I look at this page, none of the points are numbered so I don't know which points you mean.
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Re: Re: Re: A few good points
I don't really have a position on this, certainly not one that is relevant here. I suppose I would extend them if possible, for music at least, because it's now very cheap to license music for commercial use and if you want to use if commercially, that's very different to the public having access to it to help further cultural progress etc. Generally speaking educational establishments can use work for study irrespective of copyright anyway, so the length of performance rights for commercial use has no effect on this.
"The most recent study from the folks at Harvard showed that as copyright law was enforced less, MORE content creation came about."
Interesting, did they have any theories as to why this was?
"...in which he notes that there are many incentives outside of monetary incentives for creation."
Sure, I've never claimed it's all about money, just control.
"We've spent years and years on this site demonstrating business models..."
Please tell me more about them. If the artist has no right over their content, I don't understand how they can make any money from the content.
"So are you willing to step back from your unsubstantiated comment that copyright law is somehow necessary to give content creators the incentive to create? The actual evidence says you're wrong."
Show me how content creators can earn a living from their content when they don't have any rights over their content (and are not simply selling the rights to someone else) and sure, I'll retract what I said.
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Re: Re: Re: dear dave n.
It's both nice and weird to have you guys so curious as to who I work for.
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Re: Re: Re: A few good points
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Exactly, so they still have a way to gain from their work. They write/record some songs, put them out for free (which they have the choice to do, thanks to the choice given to them by copyright), people like them, so buy their swag/tickets etc. and the creators still get their personal gain. They still have an incentive.
Why should we encourage new business models over the existing ones? There's nothing outdated about having to gain permission to use someone else's work. Just because it's easy to copy it, that doesn't make it right to do so.
And just because you can copy my work to everyone on the planet, it doesn't mean I should receive nothing for my efforts. There are not an infinite number of listeners to my work, and even if there were, 0 is never a 'fair market price' - 0 is not a price at all. And by the way way, my music is a scarce good - only I can make/grow it.
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Re: Dave / point 245
As for the hairdresser, he claims he didn't know he had to pay a license fee to the PPL, which implies that he would have paid it if he had known, seeing as he paid the PRS one. Anyway, ask him, not me...
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http://www.prsformusic.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/PPS%2520Tariffs/HDB-2009-11%2520Tariff .pdf
So, we're talking less than £250 for a whole year of music licensing. That's really not a lot for a business that should be turning over at least £100,000 (if they have at least a few employees and then rent/equipment costs to pay).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Interesting. You do realize that copyright is supposed to be a bargain between the public and the creators, right? The idea is that the public grants the creators this monopoly right for a limited time, supposedly as incentive to create (as you note) -- IN EXCHANGE for that content moving into the public domain at some point in the future.
But you find no moral problem in the government unilaterally changing that deal at a later date in favor of one party by extending the length of coverage? Even though it explicitly breaks the deal with the public and gives them nothing in return?
Even if you support copyright extension on *new* works, supporting retroactive copyright extension is supporting a blatantly immoral taking from the public.
Interesting, did they have any theories as to why this was?
Sure. Lots. The old recording (not *music*) industry was about control via copyright. Their entire business model was based on being the gatekeepers, so that the only way to be a success was to sign your rights over to them almost entirely. From that vantage point, they would assert copyright to control the creation, promotion and distribution of new music, artificially limiting the market to drive up prices, but only allowing a few acts to become sustainable.
Take copyright (mostly) out of the equation, and insert modern technologies and suddenly artists can do everything that they used to need a gatekeeper for by themselves for much cheaper. Suddenly, the creation, promotion and distribution of new music is drastically cheaper. And, because you no longer need a gatekeeper who forces you into a single business model, you can embrace new and unique business models (even those that don't rely on copyright at all).
In other words, you seem to be confusing "copyright" with "business model." Historically, copyright has always been about giving a tool to the middlemen to limit the size of a market. That's what PPL does, by the way. It funnels money from venues to the big name artists, and does so in a way that makes it more expensive for venues to play music, or to allow up and coming artists to play. PPL harms artists... Ask PPL to tell you what percentage of money they actually distribute to artists. And, yes, Nevrkla's salary is a "secret," but if you ask around, someone can tell you what it is.
PPL is not about helping artists at all.
Sure, I've never claimed it's all about money, just control.
Copyright (even in the UK) has never been about "control." It's always been a bargain between the public and the creators.
Please tell me more about them. If the artist has no right over their content, I don't understand how they can make any money from the content.
Here's two recent articles I wrote highlighting many such business models which don't rely on copyright at all:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20091119/1634117011.shtml
http://techdirt.com/articles/201 00125/1631147893.shtml
Show me how content creators can earn a living from their content when they don't have any rights over their content (and are not simply selling the rights to someone else) and sure, I'll retract what I said.
Check out the links above, and I await the retraction.
It's not surprising that many people think copyright is the only way to make money. We've been told that for so many years. But the deeper you dig, the more you realize it's a fantasy. You should look at the actual evidence and research that's been done on the subject.
For example, the research comparing the US and Europe when it comes to the database industry (Europe has copyright on databases, the US does not). Guess who's got a much larger industry because of that?
Another good area to explore is the research on fashion copyrights, and how the fashion industry thrives in the *absence* of copyrights.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: dear dave n.
However I do have to take note that previously you stated that you did not work for any of the PPL/PRS/BPI/RIAA collection agencies, and that does appear to be true based on your LinkedIn Page and Facebook Profile however what you fail to mention and is clear from those pages is that you HAVE been working for "a major international broadcaster". Your website 'natts.com' simply redirects to your LinkedIn Profile, wich does seem odd for a "Freelance Web Developer and Consultant".
Even more to the point on the Facebook page you state "I've also created and maintain the site for a BBC2 comedy show (http://www.mocktheweek.tv), another for the body of UK music industry associations (the Music Business Forum)" and "I used to run a complete online music merchandise shop (swagshop.com) with over 50 brand clients from Travis, Stereophonics and Muse to Robin Gibb, Jamie Oliver and Craig David, which was sold on to a larger company, and I also ran the official website for the 'indie' band Mansun on and off for over 7 years." You then stated HERE that "I've done some work for small/medium-success-level artists over the years, but I don't work 'the music business' as such". Now I can not speak for the others on this site but to me, myself, and I that comes across as an out and out lie.
Now I know that it is somewhat off topic, but to me presents a clear conflict, the company you list as your 'Present' employer Clock Limited lists on their website These Companies (in no particular order): BBC, BBC Worldwide, BBC Switch, BBC Radio 5 Live, Turner Broadcasting, Sport Industry Group, Avalon Entertainment Limited, Saracens Ltd (Season Tickets?), The New Football Pools from Sportech PLC (Whatever that is), and News Corporation. Let me count the number of monopoly rents in that steaming pile...
So forgive us we we call you an industry shill/troll, because that is EXACTLY what you appear to be.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
That's actually a rather modern re-interpretation of the pretext for copyright.
Originally, the pretext was supposed to be that the privilege (of copyright) enabling the publisher to protect their published works (against copying) was granted in exchange for incentivising that publication. That this means of protection did not last forever was not regarded as a key benefit to the public.
It's only today, when the public CAN make copies and derivatves, that there is a perception of published works being divided into 'protected by copyright' and 'not protected'.
And so now the pretext for copyright has changed from 'encouraging publication', to 'encouraging the donation of cultural building materials for eventual copying/derivation by the public'. ('eventual' now being one or more centuries later, and would no doubt be continually extended but for imminent abolition).
Of course, both of these pretexts are just that. Copyright has never been a bargain between the people and publishers. It's been a bargain between the state and the press: establishment of a reproduction monopoly in exchange for a beholden/compliant press.
Even with copyright, the 'public domain' is supposed to comprise all published works. It's actually a severe erosion of the public domain to restrict it to 'works not protected by copyright' - a grievous concession to the copyright axis.
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I don't agree with Christmas or birthdays or a host of other things but still end up participating in them far more often than I would like. I don't like how the BBC is funded but I still watch them.
Principles have this annoying tendency to collide with reality, in reality my principles tend to annoy other people or work against my own best interests, that's a pretty basic burden of society. I could just not participate in anything I disagreed with but that would be a pretty shitty life.
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Sneaky. Substituting 'with' with 'to', thus drastically changing the meaning. Ain't that a strawman!
Dark Helmet said he doesn't agree WITH the rules, as in doesn't agree with the principle. You are suggesting that because he abides by them that he agrees TO the rules, as in agrees to abide by them. Both are true statements but you seem to have purposefully misinterpreted what Dark Helmet said.
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I don't agree with the war in Iraq. Are you suggesting that I am guilty of the consequences of the war because I don't move countries?
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You do realise that people can scroll up to read what you said, right?
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Why would he? If people can agree that smoking is bad for them but still smoke then a guy can agree that fees are bad but still pay them. In the case of smoking, the need to feel good outweighs the fact that they are bad. In this case, the consequences of not paying outweigh his opinion of the fees.
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Ok, now I struggle to take you seriously. Are you covering for TAM on the troll rota by any chance? At least you're better at it, I suppose.
If you're being serious then HAHAHAHA, you're a moron. It is funny that you can grasp the concept of language enough to use grammar, but not understand a word as simple as 'directly'.
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If you can explain why an agreement between party A and party B should involve money legally being extorted from party C, please do so. This custom is unfair to the customer.
In addition, people choose their tip based on many factors, only a few of which the waiter or waitress has any control over. This custom is unfair to the waitress.
I don't choose to utilize restaurants that pay a living wage because it wouldn't make a difference. IHOP isn't go to suddenly start paying their employees more because I tell them I'd prefer that. What would be the point of that useless gesture? (That's a rhetorical question.)
You seem to think that a boycott is a cure-all for all principles. You are wrong. Have a nice day. :)
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Stupid troll is stupid.
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Boycotting isn't the answer to everything. It's not even the answer to most things. Deal with it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Okay, first, this is hilarious. Second, radio broadcasts aren't sent to anyone specifically. They're sent over public area into public and private property.
So these agencies are absolutely attempting to charge people to use their own physical property to access public property on their own real property.
It seems like the artists are doing way more infringing than the property owners...
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Re: Re: Happy
Man, you're dumb.
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That's funny. I guess that my local mall isn't open to the public, so they can play music all they like.
Of course, the UK agencies have sued companies for playing music for their employees as well, but you can ignore that if you'd like.
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You're more patient than me. I didn't even get to civil disobedience before I called him a troll.
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I don't care what country you're in, you should not have to pay to listen to what people broadcast into your own air.
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Also, why are you only looking at the singles? Should you be looking at overall sales of recorded music? Roflmao.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Please don't quote the PRS website when referring to UK legislation. That is merely their interpretation of UK legislation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Plenty of artists find ways to make money without making money from their copyrighted music. Quite a few of them have non-art related jobs, and create wonderful art as a hobby.
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In addition, zero can absolutely be a fair market value, and digital files are not a scarce good.
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No people need to get angry and start disrespecting the law in mass to send a clear message about these kind of thing.
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> the
> black
> people
> started
> their
> own bus
> service,
> the racist
> bus
> service
> would
> have
> suffered
> financially
> and would
> have
> been
> likely
> to have
> changed
> its rules.
Nope. I don't think you understand what was going on then. The requirement for blacks to sit at the back of the bus wasn't a rule implemented by some racist bus owner. It was the *law*. Even if the blacks had started their own bus service, they still would have been required by law to give whites preferential seating.
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What I do in my workspace is my problem, what I choose to do in my business is mine decision alone, how those people got to tell other what to do inside their own property is beyond me.
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Says who?
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I accept that that was the idea of it when it was set up hundreds of years ago. But morally the public has no right to an individual's work.
"you find no moral problem in the government unilaterally changing that deal at a later date in favor of one party by extending the length of coverage? Even though it explicitly breaks the deal with the public and gives them nothing in return?"
Sure, I don't see why the public deserves anything at all? Creators handing over the rights to their work after 50 years or whatever is a privilege (albeit legally enforced), not a right.
A fairer system for me would be that the copyright expires a number of years after the creator dies (so that their family can still receive income from it to support themselves in the absence of the creator).
"Even if you support copyright extension on *new* works, supporting retroactive copyright extension is supporting a blatantly immoral taking from the public."
That's assuming you think it's moral that the public had the copyright expiry rule in the first place. Which I don't.
"In other words, you seem to be confusing 'copyright' with 'business model'"
Nope, copyright is a way to control what happens to your work, whether it's allowing anyone to buy a copy of it, giving it away for free (at your discretion) or blocking certain companies/individuals from ever using it, or selling copies at a million pounds a time, or only allowing charities to use it, or whatever. If money is involved then sure, it becomes a business model, but copyright is not specifically about money, it's about rights - that's why it's called copyRIGHT.
"It funnels money from venues to the big name artists"
No, it takes annual license fees from venues and pays proportions of them to all of its artists.
"Ask PPL to tell you what percentage of money they actually distribute to artists."
Can you not just tell me yourself, seeing as you're so sure about all this stuff? And if it's really that bad, artists don't have to use them.
"Copyright (even in the UK) has never been about "control." It's always been a bargain between the public and the creators."
Exactly! A bargain between them about the control of/rights to the work!
"Here's two recent articles I wrote highlighting many such business models which don't rely on copyright at all:"
OK, I'm really sorry but I don't have time to read through those fully. But, they do rely on copyright. If there was no copyright and as soon as the artists created their work, the work belonged to the public, the artists wouldn't have any right to sell their deluxe versions because the public owns the works, not them.
Giving away work using Creative Commons means you still retain the rights to and ultimate control of the work, whereas without any copyright, you wouldn't have the right to make deluxe versions of your own work, because you have no rights to it! That's why Trent Reznor has used CC instead of just surrendering all rights - because he's not stupid. If I started selling my own deluxe versions of his work, I'd be breaking the CC license and he could sue etc. as he still has the rights to the work. For the last time, copyright is about control and rights, not just financial income.
"Show me how content creators can earn a living from their content when they don't have any rights over their content (and are not simply selling the rights to someone else) and sure, I'll retract what I said.
Check out the links above, and I await the retraction."
Those links didn't show me how 'creators can earn a living from their content when they don't have any rights over their content' - as they still retain their rights.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dear dave n.
No, I haven't ever worked for PPL, PRS, BPI etc. I was commissioned to do a website for the Music Business Forum, but the MBF was closed down before it got completed. In any case, developing a website for the MBF does not affiliate me with the licensing societies being discussed on this page.
And sure, I do a website for a TV show (via the show's production company) that is shown on the BBC (and another commerical channel too). I deliberately redirect natts.com to my LinkedIn profile because it is the best representation of my work experience, skills and recommendations - I don't need my own website, and I'd rather spend my time being paid to do other people's sites than bother with one of my own. Having said that, I do plan to launch a blog/lifestream style site in the near future. Yes, I've helped artists sell their swag online in the past, and I've even done websites for artists who are signed to major labels.
So how do I work for the music business then, sorry? I've worked for artists.
And sure, I'm working for Clock at the moment on a project for BBC Worldwide. How does that affect the facts about UK copyright laws, sorry?!
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Says who, sorry? The public domain is the things that belong to the public, not things that don't. Just because I publish something, it doesn't mean the public can do what it wants with it. If I publish my song with conditions such as a license fee being required to play it in a barbershop, that's my choice. The public has no right to ignore my conditions.
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"I could just not participate in anything I disagreed with but that would be a pretty shitty life"
Indeed, so maybe you should reconsider the things you do/don't agree with, like everyone else does. I don't like spending 40+ hours of my week working for other people, but I choose to do it because it means I can spend the rest of my time living comfortably. I could just not work at all and live a pretty shit life, but I'd prefer not. You've made your choice too.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Seriously, your mastery of truthiness has raised the bar for ignorance worldwide.
I would go through line-by-line and show you your logical *and* factual errors, but honestly, after 400 comments you still haven't gotten it and more eloquent people than I have already pointed out your epic asshattery.
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Anyway, the guy said himself that he hadn't paid NOT because he objected, but because he wasn't aware that the PPL needed to be paid.
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I don't know how anything is being legally extorted from the customer. The waitress agrees to the pay rate from the restaurant when they accept the job. If the customer wants to reward the waitress directly for good service, they can do so. If they don't, they don't. If you only want to use restaurants that pay their waitresses a living wage (and thus don't require a tip from you in order to live), then you are free to do so. You say it won't make a difference, but it will if enough people feel the same way. If a significant amount of people only eat at restaurants that pay living wages, this will affect the industry. It may take the badly paying restaurants some time to work this out, but the chains generally do market research.
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Don't tell me what I think.
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Thieves usually have a genuine belief that stealing is OK, but morally it is not.
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And this doesn't affect this case, as it's about commercial property/premises, not private.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
And no, the agencies aren't trying to charge people to access public property (the radio waves?) on their own property. They are charging BUSINESSES to PERFORM (i.e. play) music that THEY DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO on COMMERCIAL PREMISES. Not that same at all.
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Re: Re: Re: Happy
Man, you're rude.
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And yes, it turns out that a license is required for playing licensed music for employees in private commercial premises too.
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People own rights to their work. If you don't have permission to play my work on your property, you are morally and legally wrong to do so.
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Unfortunately for you, the UK law doesn't care what you don't care about.
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OK, fine, like most industries, the music industry has been affected by the global recession and overall sales of recorded music are down as people tighten their belts and perhaps just buy a single or two instead of buying a whole album. The industry is not dead by any means though, dumbass.
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I already went over this with you. If you have only two bad choices, choosing a bad choice doesn't mean you agree with it in principle. Why is this so hard to grasp? Is the analogy not extreme enough? If so, let's try another, more extreme analogy:
A psychopath has taken you and your wife hostage, locked you in a room, and told you that one of you has to shoot the other within 30 minutes or else the room will fill with gas and you will both die.
Option 1: You kill her
Option 2: She kills you
Option 3: You both decide that your hopelessly in love and can't kill each other, so you both die
You have a choice in what to do, yet none of those choices taken mean you think that what is going on is right. You simply don't have a "right" choice...
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If you are knowingly endorsing/promoting/supporting illegal activity (like the Pirate Bay did, for instance), that's completely different.
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Dave Natriss isn't using a license....
Good game, dear sirrah!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
And exactly - their ability to make their art is limited by having to do another job to pay the bills. They can only do it as a hobby, so it does stop them from creating (as much as they'd like to).
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Digital files are not scarce, but digital works can be. Just because something is easy to replicate, that doesn't mean all intellectual property rights just get voided.
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You may see this as being wrong/unfair, but it's for the best for the country, and if you don't like it, you can simply leave the country. You can't have it being OK to kill or injure people, for instance, so long as it happens on your property.
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BROADCAST - A method of sending information over a network
When is any shop or business ever "sending" anything by turning on a radio? They are RECEIVING a broadcast! Please let's be clear about this simple fact. If they were turning on a transmitter then they would be broadcasting. This is the crux of how ridiculous the laws in question appear. Obviously the law in the UK has avoided this truth about who is broadcasting or what broadcasting actually entails and so the law should be corrected. The law has taken a public transmission and turned it into a selectively closed network based on where and under what circumstances the broadcast is being received.
No one here is claiming the artists or production personnel shouldn't get paid for their work.
Quote: "No, that's not true. You're implying that being paid twice means 'double' the amount."
Epic logic fail. You take a logical argument and attach an unrelated mathematical expression (multiplication) to try and disprove the logic. Sorry, getting paid twice does not automatically imply double the value - it is simply collecting ANYTHING more than once. If I pay a dollar and you pay a penny, the receiver gets paid twice but not necessarily double.
Quote: "which enhances your working conditions and/or your customer satisfaction)"
You keep insisting that the music enhances working conditions or customer satisfaction - what is this observation based on? Quit claiming you are selling a business enhancement which is debatable to begin with but ultimately irrelevant according to....YOU!
You go on to say: "Whether or not having music enhances your business/increases your sales, you still need to respect the wishes of the copyright holders of the music you choose to play. If they say they want paying, either pay them or don't play their music."
I see an excellent business opportunity here for anyone who wants to broadcast license free or public domain music here! Get yourself an advertising-based radio station in the UK and play only music NOT subject to ANY collection society/agency/racketeer.
I'd be willing to bet that eventually the industry (lawyers) will find a way, with legislative help no doubt, to get a piece of that as well.
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Re: Dave Natriss isn't using a license....
Trackmap mashes up data from other services (last.fm, SongKick and SoundCloud), which they have given me permission to use. You don't need a license to present data about a track.
Pathetic attempt at an argument...
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If you were the barber, your options were:
- get the PPL license and continue playing the music legally
- don't get the PPL license, continue playing the music illegally and risk being caught and a large fine (which is what happened)
- stop playing licensed music
He claims he didn't know he needed a PPL license, but unfortunately for him, ignorance does not hold up in court, so he got the fine. End of story. Get over it.
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Uh, no they couldn't. First, it was against the law for them to exclude whites, though not against the law the other way around. Second, if they had tried that they would have been met with a lynch mob.
You seriously need to stop this argument. You clearly don't know the history of the American Civil Rights movement in the South and every time you spout this stuff, you're insulting our African American population....
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Zero is not a market value, it's nothing. Digital files are not scarce, true, but the works themselves can be. Just because you can replicate my work for virtually no cost and distribute it to everyone on the planet, that doesn't mean you have permission or the right to do so.
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So where you say "in the UK you never have the right to do ANYTHING you like in your business or inside your property. NEVER." it should read: "In the UK you ALWAYS have the right to do ANYTHING you like in your business or inside your property, unless explicitly forbidden by law."
Please see http://boingboing.net/2010/06/29/london-cops-enforce.html for my references to this truth. Comments #14, #22, #24.
As others in that post stated, laws don't allow behavior, they generally prohibit behavior.
So, why did you think you were right, again, when you were wrong?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
The public has a natural right to do what they like with any published work. They still have this natural right that Homo Sapiens first demonstrated by copying each other's cave paintings, etc. and later demonstrated by copying religious texts (and works of science and literature).
Unfortunately, in a moment of infinite wisdom in 1709, Queen Anne granted a privilege for the benefit of the press that enabled holders of that privilege (initially attached to each original work) to exclude anyone else from making copies.
So actually, the public has the right, and you have an unethical privilege that suspends that right.
Indeed, the privilege of copyright is so called, because it represents the suspension of the public's right to copy, such that it is reserved as a privilege of the favoured party. See Paine's "Rights of Man".
Predictably, people with such privileges prefer to term them as 'legally created rights', or 'legal rights', or simply 'rights' for short. And then they start denying the existence of the (natural) right that their 'right' suspends.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
I accept that that was the idea of it when it was set up hundreds of years ago. But morally the public has no right to an individual's work.
If you truly believe that it is not worth discussing this further, as you have no concept of content or creativity. You don't believe in the public domain, which is downright scary and ignorant.
I suggest you read James Boyle's book on the Public Domain. It's available for free online. You might learn something about how incredibly important the public domain is to creativity.
Sure, I don't see why the public deserves anything at all? Creators handing over the rights to their work after 50 years or whatever is a privilege (albeit legally enforced), not a right.
Wow. Right there you just lied about copyright. Copyright has always been the privilege. Not the public domain. You are so wrong it hurts.
A fairer system for me would be that the copyright expires a number of years after the creator dies (so that their family can still receive income from it to support themselves in the absence of the creator).
Dave, when you die, will your family continue to get cash for the last website you built?
What you are discussing is not copyright, it's welfare. If you want a welfare system for musicians ask the government to set up that. Don't use copyright to pretend it's welfare.
That's assuming you think it's moral that the public had the copyright expiry rule in the first place. Which I don't.
Then you are ignorant of the history of creative content. To claim that it's not moral for the public to have access to content is a downright sickening thought. It shows you know little of how creative content works.
Nope, copyright is a way to control what happens to your work, whether it's allowing anyone to buy a copy of it, giving it away for free (at your discretion) or blocking certain companies/individuals from ever using it, or selling copies at a million pounds a time, or only allowing charities to use it, or whatever. If money is involved then sure, it becomes a business model, but copyright is not specifically about money, it's about rights - that's why it's called copyRIGHT.
Ok, let me ask you this. Can an artist demand that the radio not play his or her music? Can an artist demand that another artist not cover his or her songs?
If you really believe it's all about control, you have to admit that copyright law today is quite immoral.
No, it takes annual license fees from venues and pays proportions of them to all of its artists.
Heh. Go ahead, look at how they "calculate" who gets what. It funnels money that should go to small artists to big ones. It's about as immoral as you can get. It takes away money from venues that support small artists and hands that money to PPL execs and big artists. That you support this on moral grounds is, well, either ignorance or grossly distorted morals.
Can you not just tell me yourself, seeing as you're so sure about all this stuff? And if it's really that bad, artists don't have to use them.
Dave, I'm trying to get you to learn something since you appear to be totally ignorant of the subject, while presuming to lecture us.
And why do you keep ignoring the point that I raised earlier: there ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS in the UK because PPL and PRS had a gov't backed monopoly. Why you keep ignoring that is beyond me.
Exactly! A bargain between them about the control of/rights to the work!
No. Dave, learn some history and learn the law. It's a bargain about how to incentivize works to get them into the public domain.
OK, I'm really sorry but I don't have time to read through those fully
Ha! So I prove you wrong and your answer is "I don't have time, so I'll stay ignorant." Very convincing.
But, they do rely on copyright. If there was no copyright and as soon as the artists created their work, the work belonged to the public, the artists wouldn't have any right to sell their deluxe versions because the public owns the works, not them.
You are a very confused young man, Dave. When something is in the public domain it means *anyone* can sell it, including the artist. Being in the public domain does not mean no one can sell it.
Go back and read the article again. None of those things rely on copyright.
Giving away work using Creative Commons means you still retain the rights to and ultimate control of the work, whereas without any copyright, you wouldn't have the right to make deluxe versions of your own work, because you have no rights to it
Again, you don't seem to know what the public domain means. At all. For someone who came here insisting that he was here to clear up the things we got wrong, your blatant ignorance is astounding.
Those links didn't show me how 'creators can earn a living from their content when they don't have any rights over their content' - as they still retain their rights.
No, Dave, you are wrong and you promised a retraction. Your ignorance does not make it okay for you not to live up to your promise.
Yes, technically they retain their copyrights because they have no choice under the law. As the law stands, you automatically get copyright. Getting rid of them is nearly technically impossible under the law.
The point is that they're not using those copyrights. You asked for evidence that business models could exist and people could make money without copyright. I gave it to you. You promised a retraction if I did so. You have not given it. That makes you a liar.
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And just like that, Dave shows he's ignorant of economics as well as the law.
Come on Dave. People here are educating you on some basic facts. Try learning.
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Again, REALLY?? C'mon Dave!
Another epic logic fail Dave! Morality is expressly an individual interpretation of right and wrong or good and evil. Your definition (or anyone else's for that matter) has ZERO bearing on my belief of what is moral and immoral. Neither of us can claim the "high ground" because morals are an individual interpretation. Retraction to this blatantly false statement is hereby requested.
morality: concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong
The point of contention lies in the interpretation that "All laws are right/moral and thus, must be obeyed (regardless of an individual's concerns/beliefs)", which is then self-justified by the "that's why they are laws" claim. Laws are laws so they must be right. Ummm, NO!
Most individuals with critical thinking skills would see the RED flag "ALL" and immediately analyse the statement/facts. Very few statements can use "All/Always/Everyone/Anyone" without reprisal based on circumstances. Here's one for the crowd: All squares are rectangles. It's an indisputable fact that has been scientifically proven based on the definitions of squares and rectangles. Laws are interpretations (not necessarily moral interpretations either) of acceptable or unacceptable behavior for a subsection of humanity (which is why laws have jurisdictions). I sincerely doubt that any statement regarding laws on the whole will withstand the scrutiny on a global scale.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Perhaps an industry shill, copyright troll, or deeply indoctrinated, but not a moron.
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I never said they were. Please tell me you know what an analogy is.
"Anyway, the guy said himself that he hadn't paid NOT because he objected, but because he wasn't aware that the PPL needed to be paid."
Which is entirely beside the point I addressed.
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Whoa!!
I didn't ask for the broadcast. It's there because of an agreement between the creator and the broadcaster, who happens to know there is a business opportunity (in selling advertising for instance) between the songs he has paid to broadcast from the creators.
See, the creator gets paid, the broadcaster gets paid, and the listening audience (regardless of their environment) gets (hopefully) entertained.
Where in that scenario does the artist have the right to ANOTHER payment from the audience?
If you want to get paid again, then sell it again to a DIFFERENT audience!! Or, sell it on a closed system (CD, stream, etc.)instead of publicly available airwaves which, by the way, are owned by the audience who make up the population of the country and have a government agency that is "supposed" to work for the public and regulate these things for the benefit OF THE PUBLIC. my taxes are paying for this regulation and you have the gall to ask for another payment outside of the ones already made?! That right there is theft! Fortunately we know your view on thieves:
"Thieves usually have a genuine belief that stealing is OK, but morally it is not."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
I need to go to the UK and walk around with my radio.
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Come on Dave, this is getting ridiculous!
Im joining the conversation late here, but would like to make a couple of points.
1. Yes, Artists have right to get paid for their work, however whilst TV liscensing is made blantantly obvious with public advertising on TV/billboards etc. The PRS and PPL are definately NOT! These companies are very quick to sue/go to court claiming money without doing the background work by letting the average joe starting up a business know what they have to do... In the hairdresser's case he was doing the right by having the PRS license, again its NOT obvious that you need another one... Im sure lawyers fees for consultations are very expensive.
2. THERE SHOULD ONLY BE ONE COLLECTION AGENCY... then there wouldn't any complications.
3. Did you know kids are being arrested and taken to court for putting hyperlinks up on places like facebook...
Viacom tried to sue google for linking to infringing materials
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10399610.stm
4. You're comments about moving countries if you disagree with laws is ridiculous, nothing is a simple as that! Your comments regarding Rosa Parks are offensive and shows serious ignorance and arrogance.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dear dave n.
I am not saying that it does, I am just pointing out what I see as a conflict of interest. Now to be clear I am NOT saying that your opinion is not valuable and I agree the point of view of people involved in the industry is important, however in your earlier posts I felt you implied that you had no connection to the industry, but you do.
Regarding "the facts about UK copyright laws" the point you seem to be missing is we are not saying that he did not violate the letter of the law, he did. The point we are trying to make is that he had no INTENT to do so, and that the law itself makes no sense because it causes this kind of confusion. This is the core of many complaints regarding Intelectual Property Law, that the law itself often causes more harm than good.
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Dave = WTF?
You're brave to keep battling solo against everyone here on this board, maybe it's stupidity, arrogance, boredom or many other adjectives I can't be bothered to think.
Why don't you consider what people are saying to you and accept you may be wrong? When someone is so outnumbered in a debate, there is a chance that they are, er, wrong. You've already been 'outed' in how you mis-represented your assocaiations to the music business so who wants to take your other statements seriously or with intent?
Please consider working for the BPI/PPL etc. as you seem to share their deluded vision.
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Re: Re: Dave Natriss isn't using a license....
IF you cannot, then you are breaking the law (according to a company YOU worked for.) But your logic clearly doesn't apply to yourself. That would be FAR too sensible.
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Re: Dave = WTF?
However, after that he insists that the situation is "morally" correct because the law says so, claims to not be connected in the industry but apparently he is, and Rosa Parks should have got off the bus and started her own bus line!! The last one is actually reprehensible from a "moral" standpoint which puts a dent in his "morals" claim, the second point he seems to have lied about and thus puts into question everything he says, the third point shows his ignorance of the Civil Rights movement in the US which took a great number of years to change completely unacceptable laws which had no business in being made in the first place.
Despite all that it always takes someone to "fight the world" if they want to make a change. At one time, most well schooled people believed the earth was flat and those that opposed the thought were ostracized and ridiculed.
I don't think Dave will "win" this battle but he really doesn't have to because the law in the UK currently requires both licenses for someone in a place of business to turn on their radio and play licensed music. The side with the absurd law wins until that law is changed. Those in opposition are really just stating the obvious - the law NEEDS to be changed.
This is one of the longest running commentaries I've followed in the few years that I've read TechDirt and it has been relatively free of personal attacks (those exceptions I'm sure the contributors know who they are) and very enlightening.
Dave, once again kudos to you for being willing to go down with the ship, we don't agree on how things should be but i admire your tenacity and civility throughout!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Further, the world does not owe you a living at what you're talented at. It's sad that they can't make a living through music, but it's sad that millions of talented parents, poets, mechanics, and makers have to have jobs to support their talents as well. That's reality. Talented musicians don't deserve more than any other talented person.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
This is the conversation that we just had:
AC: Artists are having a problem selling plastic discs, and are choosing to sue their customers as a remedy.
You: The business owner is not a customer.
Me: The business owner is a customer.
You: Not of plastic discs!
Me: The business owner is a music customer. He may not be a plastic disc customer (although he probably is) but the OP didn't say that the lack of plastic disc sales led to plastic disc customer suits. He said that it led to customer suits. You do understand that musicians have many customers who don't purchase plastic discs, right?
In this case, he obviously consumes radio music, which makes him a customer of the radio stations, who purchase music from the artists. That's the same as consuming plastic discs, in which you become a customer of a store, and the store purchases plastic discs from the artists.
God, you're dumb.
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People own the air waves. If you don't want people to hear your music, don't transmit it, or allow it to be transmitted, on public air waves.
Suing someone for accessing their air waves is morally and legally wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Happy
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
The business owner was using his physical property to access public air waves on his real property. It is absolutely the same.
The business owner doesn't lose his right to use his physical property when he walks into a business. The business owner doesn't lose his right to access his air waves when he walks onto his property. In fact, since both the physical property and the air waves were on his real property, his right to use both is strengthened, not weakened.
The agencies attempt to weaken his rights to his own property, physical, digital, and real, is morally wrong, just as asking a black person to sit in a different section of a bus is morally wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And, at a different point in the thread, you said that moral right sometimes transcends legal right, such as with Riosa Parks and other figures in the Civil Rights movement in America. Do you still believe that, or not?
If so, the moral right may supersede the legal right, just as it did with Ms. Parks.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I asked you that earlier, and you said no. Now you say yes? Which is it?
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Digital works are not scare. They are infinitely replicable at a cost close to zero. A pair of Nikes is a scare good, because they are not infinitely replicable at a cost close to zero.
You really need to sue your college for not providing your with a basic education. Or you can just download a free economics textbook. :)
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Re: Re:
Next, you haven't 'spelled out the FACTS'. You've contradicted yourself several times, insinuated that other people were liars and then ignored them when you were provided with the requested proof, and been completely and totally wrong about the law, morals, civil disobedience, your own work history, and a dozen other things. Your statements have been, at time, the opposite of factual.
You don't just need an economics class, buddy, you need an entire education. I just hope that you didn't pay your own tuition to whatever college claims to have given you one, because that would just be too sad.
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Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
I disagree.
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Re: Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
Do I think his point of view is correct? No!
Do I agree with the law in the UK, as it stands? No!
Do I think this specific law and the whole collection society is really racketeering with governmental blessing? Yes!
Do I think Dave handled himself in a civil manner taking into account the large number of shots he withstood? Yes I do.
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Like I said, you obviously have no idea what was going on back then.
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How is turning on a radio "taking" anything?
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LOL! Morals are nothing *but* belief. You seem to think your own personal morality is objectively true. There is no objective source of morality that governs all humanity. Some people believe things are right, some believe they're wrong. Neither one is objectively correct.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up?
Keep in mind that "control" implies a lot more than "publishing rights," which is all copyright is.
If "artists' control" was the intent, then U.K. laws intentionally would not place any restrictions whatsoever on copyright (including fair dealings), they would not be transferable, and copyrights would last forever.
More to the point, there would be no such thing as statutory fees (which are completely out of the control of the copyright holders).
And I couldn't really care what the purpose of copyright was devised as 301 years ago.
The WIPO is hardly 301 years old. And I couldn't find any more recent U.K. laws that specifically change what the purpose of copyright is.
That could be because I'm not from the U.K., of course. Even in the copyright-obsessed U.S., the stated purpose of copyright hasn't changed since the Constitution was written, over 200 years ago.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Comemercials!
If not, why not? If you don't pay for promotion, it's stealing, just like stealing a car. You're one of the "advertising wants to be free" crowd. You obviously believe that people don't deserve to be paid for commercials. Besides, it's not as if the advertisers can't afford to pay. If these guys want to pocket the money instead, they can always just not advertise on the radio.
(Sarcasm, yeah, but hopefully I've made my point.)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Remember
Sorry, I thought they didn't like the fact that music wasn't being played. You could see how I was confused:
Remember the days when the Radio would be blasting the latest tunes out of your local store downtown or the tunes blasting from the jukebox at the hamburger stand. (...) I was in the big mall lately to see a movie (legally) and not one song could be heard in the entire mall and you know it's because of licensing. We are turning into a silent society (...)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Why? One word: money.
Copyright owners come up against a time where their works will enter the public domain. They then spend a lot of money lobbying politicians to retroactively change the copyright laws. They succeed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
Do you not have any idea what "statutory rates" are?
It is a rate set by the government for use of copyrighted material.
Say you try charging "a million pounds per play." The business can pay that, but instead it says "no, I'll play the statutory rate of a quarter pence per play instead." Presto! It has a license for your music, whether you want it to or not.
Statutory rates are in effect no matter what collection society you use.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
Well, you can try, but they don't have to pay it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
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Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
It wasn't so many years ago when nearly all of a forum's participants would share Dave's views and only a few brave souls would dare to question copyright's holy sanctity as a fine and just law.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
If you create something it is indeed your private intellectual property, to which you have a natural right - to control, to exclude others, to prevent unauthorised copies, etc.
You have a right to exchange your intellectual work or labour in a free market (a market free of monopolies), for whatever price the market will bear. However, no-one has a natural right to be paid for their work (they may not find anyone who considers it worth the price insisted upon).
Incidentally, some creations do grow on trees, e.g. apples, fir cones, etc.
The point at which you would exert unethical privilege is when having sold or given your intellectual work (or a copy) to someone you insist on retaining control over what that person does with what is now their property (material and intellectual). That control unnaturally conflicts with that person's cultural liberty, e.g. to share, perform, improve, the work they've purchased.
Your natural choice is to keep your work to yourself, or exchange/give it away. It is only the 18th century privilege of copyright that grants you any further control, and that privilege is a plainly ineffective anachronism in this age of instantaneous diffusion. It's also unethical - as it always was. It's just only now when the people notice its legal constraint upon their cultural liberty that we see all this indignation and agitation fomenting into a civil cyberwar.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Set up a big transmitter and start broadcasting at high power on the frequency of your local commercial radio station.... and see how long it is before the police turn up.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes - and by that token a musician also gets the benefit from all the hours of practicie when they were younger, allowing them to earn money from performing. But then they get a further level of payments without doing any new work at all from royalties on recorded performances that they did years before.
The doctor (along with most skilled/trained professionals ) does get a 2nd order payment - but the only musician gets a third order payment without lifting a finger again. Your justification fails.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
No I 'm pretty sure I've seen legal opinions that say that provided each individual listens to only his own music it is fine.
After all how could "being in the office" make a difference? I have an office at home.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
The point is that you can have your cake, or you can eat it - but after you have eaten your cake you no longer have it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
I twice deleted a similar point regarding the trees! :)
@Rose, Dave is obviously not of the leetspeak troll genre and despite the fact that I don't agree with him, he presented his side with dignity and he honestly believes what he says.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
When the free market is a perfect market, with perfect information, no friction, and complete access to all...well, then we don't need a democracy, as voting with our wallets will lead to the optimal Net Social outcome.
i.e. Bollocks.
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So I'll turn on my radio to listen to the footie match while I clip some locks.
And, per Dave's logic, if the music creators/owners don't like the above, well, then, they are free to boycott, and not provide their music to the radio stations. If they don't like those choices, they can leave the country...by foot because they don't agree with the principle of airline regulation.
Seriously, Dave, why is it the Barber that has to boycott or leave the country? Who chooses the loser? You seem to think it's fair that the barber must put up or shut up, but the artists/owners/agencies get to call the shots and make no compromises. And this is moral?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Have you bought, and do you own a refrigerator in your house?
Bad news, then, my friend. You paid Miele for the fridge, but you did not pay the UK Freon Society for use of the refrigerant inside the coils. You should have known.
In fact, you showed that you approved of the principle when you paid Miele, but you obviously didn't do enough research on the entire value chain of home appliances.
Of course, ignorance is no excuse. Before you buy your fridge, you should read every deal, contract, and law put in place around the subject of refrigeration. If you don't like them, then you could simply choose NOT to refrigerate. You could use cubes of ice shipped in, or simply eat at restaurants. You had options - but you chose this willful violation.
It makes perfect sense to me that you should have to pay each company in the supply chain. That is much more obvious than the classic model of just paying the vendor that sells to you. Screw Occam's Razor and any effort of simplicity, transparency, or people's ability to just get on with life as opposed to needing due diligence for every product they buy.
The UK Freon Society awaits your check. If you don't like it, you can move to Sealand. As a side bonus, they have lots of free music there.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
- in one case, they are talking about RECEIVING airwaves that are travelling on and through their private property. They are doing NOTHING that affects anyone else, and all their activity remains within their property.
- in the second case, the one you suggest above, they have set up a big transmitter and are pushing their radio waves onto and through many other people's properties. This has the potential to interfere with what other people want, and thus, is subject to scrutiny and regulation based on societal norms regarding the use of shared public resources.
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But you've made the point, earlier, that if enough people are up in arms about this, they could boycott, or argue against the laws. People could vote, lobby, protest, write letters to MPs, etc.
Yet now you tell Rose (whom may be UK based, maybe not) that the UK law doesn't care what she thinks.
So...you say the law is right because it's the law. You say we should just get stuffed, or choose to not 'broadcast' the music in our shops, or choose to change the law, or leave the country. The best choice of those four bad choices would be to waste my time fighting the stupid law...yet you believe that that option is really moot, as the UK law doesn't care what people think.
Welcome to one futile, cynical, mofo world.
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Re: Re: Re: Remember
So far, I have only read his comments which indicate he is just in agreement with the laws, the practices of the collection societies, and the fact that the barber was in the wrong, and should pay.
I don't agree with Dave in the faintest, but I'm not sure it fits to address him as a greedy musician. Could be...but that is not the debate.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
You certainly do. Keep it a secret, never let anyone else know your creation, or hear your music, and you can happily control it all your life and take it to your grave.
But once you choose to share your knowledge, your music, if flows into the ears of others. It now lives in their minds, and they may find themselves reproducing it, humming it, recalling it, riffing on it. That's the nature of ideas - they can't be "unthought" or "unshared". And they are infinitely reproducible - share your idea with me, and you are not at all deprived of it yourself. That is the free market of ideas, music, stories. That is the oral tradition and the tradition of copying that 400,000 of human civilization experienced without encumbrance.
But that came to an end with the Queen Anne doctrine. As an economist, I can appreciate the argument for a limited copyright. There is the possibility that it will create an incentive to authorship, and thus the public will be enriched. And that was the stated goal of copyright in both the UK and the US: an increase of content in the public domain, and a greater wealth of ideas for us all to enjoy, share, and riff.
The more recent environment of copyright extremism is an aberration, and largely immoral. But many small-minded people, seeing the world only through the lens of "how things were when they were 20" believe the current state of affairs to be as "handed down by god." This thinking is demonstrated by your "the law is the law, and thus the law is right" tautologies.
So, to repeat: people have every right to have some kind of protection and control over their creations. They can tell no other living soul, and exercise full control. Of course, they'd be selfish pricks, but that's their prerogative.
Before you get the wrong message, artists are fully entitled to try to be rewarded for their toil. But their are other ways than the vile, government-enforced, control of ideas and fanciful creations. The double dipping and Orwellian bureaucratic hell the barber experienced just by turning on his Grundig is an egregious example of how the system is flawed. Sure, good artists should get rewards. This blog offers a litany of methods artists can be recompensed, as well as many examples of artists practicing those methods to profitable ends.
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You think that by choosing to boycott something, one can affect change. But the reality is that it takes a massive freaking movement of like-minded, organized people to mount a successful boycott.
Boycotting is a last-resort method of exerting our preferences. You treat it like we should use it for petty issues. And yes, this barber choosing to play a radio in his shop IS a petty issue. It is the ridiculous laws that turn this petty-issue into a lawsuit.
You are also fully unaware of the economic concept of "least worst" decisions, in which one must choose to live in a world, not of his choosing, but of existing constructs and systems. In such a world (ex: ours) a person must make many choices that are the lessor of two evils. There are many compromises. But not in your PRL-owned utopia. In your utopia, one can improve their life by standing rigid on minutiae.
Apparently, I'm supposed to boycott radio stations in my shop if I don't agree with copyright laws. I'm to boycott the mall because they play the wrong kind of music. But the other mall uses the wrong color paint, so I've already boycotted them. I'd drive to the next town, but I'm boycotting the highways because the city and region are charging too much for the parking meters and fuel taxes so I chose not to buy a car. I could buy my swag at Amazon.com, but I'm boycotting them because they use Flash, and I don't like Adobe.
So I just sit in my dark room and urinate on myself, and the world is as it should be :-)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
You are familiar with what a "scenario" is, right. Because it looks like you're not.
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Re: Re:
He is dead wrong, fairly illogical, backtracks a lot, contradicts himself, is tautological, and straight out of the movie Brazil. You've all been able to win the debate long before his background was brought into it.
No need to get personal.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
How much would you pay me right now for 100 shares of Enron?
To meet you where you live, how about 100 shares of Barings bank?
These are financial instruments, whose value is determined by the market. Their value is based on intrinsic ownership of a portion of then underlying asset, and it's future earnings. These instruments are (were) traded at prices determined by the supply and demand for shares in the company.
For the record, the market valuation is zero on either. Can you see why Mike has just given up and started making fun of you? A Zero price is just a number, like 1 or 2. It is possible, and the market value for a great many things. You have demonstrated an inferior capacity to understand: ethics, history, economics, math, law, and business. Wow.
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Re: Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
Clueless and ignorant about the Civil Rights battle don't make him an assh0le.
There is another plausible explanation, and you have mentioned it yourself. He's not very clever, nor well-educated.
But he has been civil, and only lashed out when attacked first. I admire that part of his contributions. Also, I don't see him as a shill, or even extremely biased.
I just see him as a totally awesome example of what copyright reformists are up against: people who just don't understand the fundamental disciplines (hist, econ, etc.), yet take a very passionate, dogmatic position pro-IP. I have read this whole thread, because I find it very interesting to see inside the brain of someone so deluded.
You see, with The Anti-Mike, Angry Dude, or Ronald J Riley, I feel like those guys are just total shills. With Dave, I feel like we're learning about a regular guy who buys the corporate party line, and we can a unique glance inside his head at all the ways he's foolin' himself.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
Are you claiming that the UK government has set a 'statutory' rate for playing/broadcasting copyrighted material? I don't believe that is true (but if you have evidence then my apologies).
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Thanks for giving us a definition of what a broadcast is. But you're missing the point - PRS and PPL licenses are not just for radio broadcasts (or the 'performance'/playing of the transmissions), but for all performances/playing of copyrighted music. So a license is needed for the stable whether or not the music is coming from the radio, a CD, an iPod, Spotify or whatever.
"Sorry, getting paid twice does not automatically imply double the value - it is simply collecting ANYTHING more than once. If I pay a dollar and you pay a penny, the receiver gets paid twice but not necessarily double."
I agree, but, you/others called it 'double dipping' - as in, you used the word 'double'. If you don't mean double the amount, don't call it that!
"You keep insisting that the music enhances working conditions or customer satisfaction - what is this observation based on?"
No, I've said it's a likelyhood. What is it based on? It's based on the fact that someone at the business has decided to play the music. If it didn't either enhance the conditions/environment for employees or customers, they would have no other reason to play it?!
"I see an excellent business opportunity here for anyone who wants to broadcast license free or public domain music here! Get yourself an advertising-based radio station in the UK and play only music NOT subject to ANY collection society/agency/racketeer."
I think that's a great idea, maybe it already exists.
"I'd be willing to bet that eventually the industry (lawyers) will find a way, with legislative help no doubt, to get a piece of that as well."
Now you're just being defeatist. There's no way that the industry could get involved if the musicians have opted out of their system, unless laws were significantly changed to take away our rights to do what we want with our works. I can't see that ever happening.
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A lynch mob of white people, I guess you mean? Couldn't the blacks just gather their own mob? And if the lunch mob was so bad, why did Rosa break the rules?
By the way, I didn't start this part of the argument, and I never felt it was a fair comparison with the actual matter this article/page is about.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your statement is correct too. My statement would only be incorrect if there were no laws about doing things on your property/business premises, but there are.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
I meant unique creations in the form of intellectual property, not fruits from trees that are grown by nature and thus nobody's to copyright/own :-)
"unethical privilege is when having sold or given your intellectual work (or a copy) to someone you insist on retaining control over what that person does with what is now their property (material and intellectual). That control unnaturally conflicts with that person's cultural liberty, e.g. to share, perform, improve, the work they've purchased."
Unethical in whose view? As you're basically saying the entire practise of the current UK music/film/TV/book/creative arts industry is unethical. When you buy a music CD in the UK, you buy two different things. Firstly, a piece of plastic (and other materials) that has digital information stored on it. Secondly, a license to play/perform the music contained in the digital information/recording as per the conditions specified by the owner of the material. Usually these are basically to only play/perform it in private and non-commercial settings, and to not clone/copy it in any way. If you want, you can sell, lend or give the CD to someone else, and then as the owner of the CD, the license is transferred to them for as long as they own it. That IS how it works in the UK, and you don't really hear of anyone claiming this is unethical. Again, if someone creates something, it's fair for them to control exactly what happens to it, if they want to.
What is this personal cultural liberty you speak of though?
Copyright gives me legal entitlement/favouring/enforcement of having control of my work, but just because the law didn't exist 400 years ago, doesn't mean I didn't have any right to this as a creator. I still don't see how you can find this unethical or how we have any ethical right to go against the wishes of those that create things in regards to those things.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Are you going to say it was a 'natural right' to steal physical property of others, or to kill others, or even kill out whole races, just because our ancestors could? A 'right' implies that it was deemed to be 'right' to do that - do you have evidence of homo sapiens agreeing upon this?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
"...your entire response to me is you blatantly lying about the *stated* intentions of copyright law in the UK."
Yikes, that's the most blatant lie I've seen on this page so far. You are making out like I made all the copyright laws in the UK or that I had some part in deciding their intentions. To be honest, I couldn't care about their intentions - the fact is they exist and currently give creators a decent amount of rights over their work.
"If you truly believe that it is not worth discussing this further, as you have no concept of content or creativity. You don't believe in the public domain, which is downright scary and ignorant.
I suggest you read James Boyle's book on the Public Domain. It's available for free online. You might learn something about how incredibly important the public domain is to creativity."
You see, now you're just making things up. I never said I don't believe in the public domain. What I have been saying countless times now is that every creator should have the right TO CHOOSE if their work should enter the public domain for all to use/copy/share/remix etc. as they wish. I am not blind, I am aware of the power of the public domain, but I would rather that an artist gets to control on what basis their work enters the PD, if at all, then have it legally enforced after an arbitrary amount of time. In the UK, that period is usually 50 years, which is just a number. Why not 49? Why not 51? In the interests of creator's rights, it should be when and only when they like. Possibly there could be a legal clause that states if they die and do not make their intentions clear in a will or similar, anything they don't pass on to others goes into the public domain, in the interest of progress, but I have never said I don't believe in the public domain. Please stop making up crap.
"Right there you just lied about copyright. Copyright has always been the privilege. Not the public domain. You are so wrong it hurts"
Says who, sorry? If you make something, it's yours. If you own something, it's yours. Ownership/creativity are not privileges, they are facts of life as part of being the dominant race on this planet.
"Dave, when you die, will your family continue to get cash for the last website you built?"
Yes, they would if I was on profit-related pay scheme, which sometimes I am.
But most websites I build are done on a commission basis where I charge a one-off payment for the work done and nothing further unless there is more work to be done.
However, if I created my own website that had some kind of income stream, similar to recording some of my own music and selling digital copies of it online, then sure, if I instructed in my will that I wanted my family to receive future income from it after I die, then yes, they would.
Maybe try a better metaphor if you really think you can prove me wrong?
"To claim that it's not moral for the public to have access to content is a downright sickening thought. It shows you know little of how creative content works."
No, it just shows how easily sickened you are. I think it's perfectly fine for the public to have access to content if that's what the creators want (perhaps with terms and conditions attached), but I don't think it's an automatic right or entitlement, nor does it need to be. Most artists are not greedy, they will give away their content or at least provide access to it for a price, as they see fit. I don't think you need to worry about a world where creators have control over their work, and it really shouldn't sicken you as that's the world of copyright we already have.
"Can an artist demand that the radio not play his or her music? Can an artist demand that another artist not cover his or her songs?"
Yes, of course they can, assuming they've not already granted licensing to the contrary that they are unable to cancel/revoke.
"If you really believe it's all about control, you have to admit that copyright law today is quite immoral."
How so, sorry?
"It funnels money that should go to small artists to big ones. It's about as immoral as you can get. It takes away money from venues that support small artists and hands that money to PPL execs and big artists."
Please could you explain this properly. If a big artist has their music played in licensed venues 100 times a day over the UK, but a small artist only has their music played once (by themselves?), why shouldn't the big artist receive 100 times more than the small artist?
Smaller venues pay smaller license fees. As far as I know the PRS and PPL splits up the money (after costs) according to how much each artist's music has been played. Are you claiming that that's not true? If a small artist rarely has their music played, you can't blame that on the licensing societies.
I'll admit here that I don't know exactly how they calculate their payments, as like I've been saying, I've never actually worked for any of the licensing societies, so if you have any actual hard evidence of how the UK do it, please do share the information. Otherwise, please pipe down.
"there ARE NO OTHER OPTIONS in the UK because PPL and PRS had a gov't backed monopoly."
Wrong. One option you have would be to go venues, and either sell them a copy of your music (in whichever format) with a license to play it on their premises, to the public, at a price you determine. Cut out the PPL/PRS altogether as you're not on their books. Or instead of selling a copy with a special license, you could give them a free copy that is theirs to own as long as they pay you a retainer over time. So once they get bored of playing your music, they just stop paying you and send back the recording.
Of course, you might find making arrangements like this to be quite time-consuming, especially with every venue in the UK. So, you could instead, sign up with a licensing society and let them take care of all the work for you, for a fee of course. There are a couple of popular ones in the UK, as you know.
The point is, YOU HAVE A CHOICE. Why you keep ignoring that is beyond me.
"No. Dave, learn some history and learn the law. It's a bargain about how to incentivize works to get them into the public domain."
That might be how it was envisaged, but it's really not how it is now. In the modern capitalist world, creators know that they have moral rights to the work that they create - you wouldn't write articles as your occupation if you couldn't make a living from them and have some rights to them (that maybe you pass on to someone else in return for a wage).
"Being in the public domain does not mean no one can sell it."
Sure it does. If something is in the public domain, you have no more rights to it than anyone else does. So if you want to sell it, you need permission from everyone else who owns it - i.e. everyone - and who's going to buy it when they already have the rights to it?!
Now, of course, say it was music - a symphony written by Beethoven hundreds of years ago, for example, where the copyright has now expired - you can make your own recording of the piece and sell copies of that and make a profit, because it's your recording of the piece to sell, and UK copyright allows you do this. But you can't sell the music as simply intellectual property, because it's not yours, it's everyone's! You're just selling a copy of your own recording of it.
"Yes, technically they retain their copyrights because they have no choice under the law. As the law stands, you automatically get copyright. Getting rid of them is nearly technically impossible under the law."
That's complete rubbish, Mike. If you want to give up your copyright to your own work, before it expires by law, you can just do so. Declare it, ideally on a piece of paper that can be legally recognised - "I relinquish all copyright to this work, signed...". There you go - done. Now it's legally in the public domain, because that's what you, the author, have chosen to do with it.
"The point is that they're not using those copyrights. You asked for evidence that business models could exist and people could make money without copyright."
Actually, they are still using their copyrights. They are not surrendering them when if they were really giving their music away, they would be. They are retaining their rights, quite wisely, because they don't know what the future holds, and they are using them to control exactly how their works can be distributed. I asked you to show me business models that didn't use copyright at all - the ones that you showed me do still use them.
Show me an artist who has put their works into the public domain, yet still has a business model with those works. The fact, it can't be done. You need rights over the work you're selling or else you can't (legally) sell it and thus don't have a business model. If the work is in the public domain, sure, you can sell your own special recordings of it or whatever, but then it's the unique recordings that are your business model, not the original work (that anyone can use).
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Re: Again, REALLY?? C'mon Dave!
"Morality is expressly an individual interpretation of right and wrong or good and evil. Your definition (or anyone else's for that matter) has ZERO bearing on my belief of what is moral and immoral. Neither of us can claim the "high ground" because morals are an individual interpretation."
You then go on to quote a definition, which makes no mention of individuality:
"morality: concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct
ethical motive: motivation based on ideas of right and wrong"
So Ron, retraction to your blatantly false statement is hereby requested.
"The point of contention lies in the interpretation that "All laws are right/moral and thus, must be obeyed (regardless of an individual's concerns/beliefs)", which is then self-justified by the "that's why they are laws" claim. Laws are laws so they must be right. Ummm, NO!"
I've never said this and I apologise if you've somehow misinterpreted what I have said to think that.
"Laws are interpretations (not necessarily moral interpretations either) of acceptable or unacceptable behavior for a subsection of humanity (which is why laws have jurisdictions). I sincerely doubt that any statement regarding laws on the whole will withstand the scrutiny on a global scale."
Agreed. Which is why I'm getting kind of sick of most of the commentators on this thread quoting US laws/morals when the whole story is about something that happened in the UK.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Smoking and licensing fees are not the same, or similar. Your analogy failed.
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Re: Whoa!!
You have bought a radio that allows you to play those broadcasts in the UK. You could have made it yourself, so your buying of it is irrelevant here, as is the role of radio manufacturers.
If you play a broadcast of my work in a non-commercial or public location in the UK, that's fine so long as the broadcaster has the appropriate licenses.
If however, you play a broadcast of my work in a commercial or public setting, that is not fully covered by the license of the broadcaster, because that's not the agreement my licensing societies made with them (as explained above). So in this case, you'll need to get the appropriate licenses if you want to do this legally. Or you can just not play the broadcasts of my work. Or you can break the law and risk getting fined.
What right do I have to two payments? Well, firstly, the first payment was from the broadcaster, not you. The reason why I feel that payment is due is because they will either be playing commercials around my music and making a profit from it, and so I feel I should get some share of this, or they are funded by the BBC license fee and again I should be entitled to a share of this. As for the second payment, this is along the same lines - if you're broadcasting my music on your commercial premises, you will be getting something from doing so (be it increased sales income, decreased sale income, better staff morale, worse staff morale, or whatever), or else you wouldn't be doing it, and so I again feel that I should be due to some kind of share of the money that your commercial operation is bringing in.
You say if I want to get paid again, sell it to a different audience. Actually, that's exactly what I 'did'. I sold it to the radio to be broadcast and played in non-commercial or public settings. And then for commercial/public settings, I am selling you, not the broadcast, a different kind of license.
You talk about your taxes paying for regulation of the public airwaves. Are you confusing the UK and the US again?
And no, asking for anything is NOT theft. Theft/stealing is taking something without the owner's permission. I suppose forcing someone to pay something could be described as theft, but it's only forcing if they are forced to do it. You are NOT forced to listen to the radio. If you don't like the licensing systems in place, just don't listen.
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Re: Come on Dave, this is getting ridiculous!
2. That would be nice I guess, yes.
3. That's a US case, not a UK case. More importantly, there's no mention of kids or anyone being arrested or taken to court at all. Based on that article (which apparently it would be illegal to post if posting links to content without permission was illegal), you're speaking rubbish. Did you post the wrong URL?
4. What on earth is ridiculous about that? I never said it was simple, but if you don't like the laws of where you live, get them changed, go elsewhere, or shut up! In the UK, you can always leave if you want to.
As for Rosa Parks, what was offensive, sorry? I think what she did was great - she stood (or sat down) against a law that made no moral sense. I still don't get how it compares at all with this case though.
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He broke the law, he got fined. Some people thought this was fair, some didn't. There is no objective/morally right/wrong as you say, so let's never discuss it again...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: dear dave n.
I, like pretty much everyone online these days, am someone who creates content, both personally and through my paid work. I'm not a licensing society, nor do I work for one. Sure, I have 'connections' to the music industry, as does anyone who's ever heard a licensed song or bought a CD. In no way does my work void or nullify what I have to say, nor the facts I am stating.
What is the relevance of his intent, sorry? The UK copyright law states that if you want to play a recording in a public/commercial place, you need permission of the owner of the work or their representatives. He got his PRS license and for an unknown reason assumed that he had done all he needed to. Perhaps the wording of the contract implied it, or more likely, he just assumed it. As I've said many times now, it was an unfortunate mistake - he will have no doubt learnt his lesson.
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Re: Dave = WTF?
I do not care whether I'm 'battling' solo or with a large group or whatever. An argument is not won by sheer numbers, but by its convictions.
I am, of course, considering what is being said to me, especially when writing responses. I wouldn't have anything to write if I wasn't doing so.
And yes, if someone is outnumbered, there is a *chance* they are wrong, but that doesn't prove or confirm it.
I didn't mis-represent anything. I said I don't work for the music industry AND I DO NOT. Please don't pretend to know things about me that I do not know. You even say yourself I should consider working for the BPI/PPL etc. which implies that I currently don't. Thank you for confirming that I do not.
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Re: Re: Re: Dave Natriss isn't using a license....
Why do I need to distinguish between legitimate (licensed?) and non-legitimate (illegal) performances, sorry?! What law am I breaking?! And what company that I worked for claims I am breaking it?!
I think I get why you call yourself 'the eejit'!
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Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
Thanks for partially sticking up for me. However, you're wrong about a few things:
"he insists that the situation is 'morally' correct because the law says so"
No, I never gave that as the reason why I think it's morally correct.
"claims to not be connected in the industry but apparently he is"
Eh? What connection to the music industry do I have? That matters? That affects my view on copyright? And you claim I lied? How so?!
"Rosa Parks should have got off the bus and started her own bus line"
That was a suggestion - I didn't insist it. However, as history tells us, what she did instead worked perfectly well.
"Those in opposition are really just stating the obvious - the law NEEDS to be changed."
This is subjective. Those who write songs, but don't perform them, or who perform them but don't write them, might not agree. They might like the licenses being separated so that the licensing is more granular and ultimately fairer. And that's why they are.
"willing to go down with the ship"
What ship is this, sorry? You already admitted that "the side with the absurd law wins", which I guess you mean is me, or my country?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom
Does it mean something else for you?!
I never claimed the world owes anyone a living at anything. I don't get your point. All I've been saying is that if you create something, you have the right to control what happens to it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Receiving stolen (stealing means taken without permission) property is an offence in the UK too.
As for paying the artist, that entirely depends on what licensing arrangements they've got in place, if any. If there are none then I am breaking copyright law by default (assuming the work was published less than 50 years ago).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Nobody is being sued (or in fact fined) for accessing air waves. The infringement was for the performance of copyrighted work without permission. Do you understand?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
By the way, do a search for the word 'sorry' on this page. Who have the majority of them been written by...?
Now do a search on words like 'idiot', 'dumbass', 'moron'... who wrote them first? Not me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Happy
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
No, it's NOT THE SAME because the law breaking was not the receiving/access of the air waves. Again: the licensing societies are charging BUSINESSES to PERFORM (i.e. play) music that THEY DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS TO on COMMERCIAL PREMISES. Air waves have nothing to do with it. The same licenses are required to play music from CD, or iPod, or Spotify, or vinyl, or cassette, or 8-track, or whatever.
"The business owner doesn't lose his right to use his physical property when he walks into a business."
That really depends on a lot of things. If you mean the right to use his radio when on commercial property, no, he doesn't. I never claimed he did or that any rights to use a radio were in question.
"The business owner doesn't lose his right to access his air waves when he walks onto his property."
They're not his air waves, but yes, he doesn't lose the right to access them on his property.
"The agencies attempt to weaken his rights to his own property, physical, digital, and real, is morally wrong"
You have completely neglected the intellectual property rights, which he, the business owner, has no rights to. It's not about his rights to use his radio, or to tune into public radio stations. For the last time, I hope, the reason the barber got fined was for performing (playing recorded) music that he did not have the required licenses to play, as dictated by the owner of the music recording and writer of the music.
This has absolutely no comparison with asking (or event forcing) a black person to sit in a different section of a bus based on their race. The barber wasn't fined because of his race! You have lost it...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I believe moral (as in, generally what most people believe) rights can be more important than legal ones and it should be the job of every legal society to keep their laws up to date with what the majority of the public believe. Most people don't believe it's OK to take something from someone, physical or intellectual, without their permission, which is why in the UK we have both laws against physical theft, and also copyright.
You don't have the moral right to perform (play) my music without my permission though, no matter how you get your hands on it.
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"This is my work"
Look, I just created something - that sentence above this one. I have copyright of that sentence as written by me. Now, I'm going to give that copyright away: The line above this in speech marks is now in the public domain and does not belong to me any longer. And there you go, I just gave away something for free.
Digital (or in fact, intellectual) works are most definitely scarce. Works by me can only be made by me. Works by you can only be made by you. Sure they can be replicated, but the WORK is scarce. You and the rest of the world can't make a new 'Dave Nattriss' work because you are not me.
I'm amused how you even assume I went to a college. I went to a playschool, then private pre-school, then a state primary school, then a state secondary school and sixth form, then a university. Please stop insulting my education, and while you're at it, please stop insulting me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Copyright is not just publishing rights, it's full control.
What fair dealing UK copyright laws are there, sorry?
Copyrights being transferable is an important part of having control. If I have full control of something, I have the right to transfer the control to someone else if I want to.
As for copyrights lasting forever, as I've said, I don't really agree with this - they should last for the lifetime of the artist at the very least, assuming the artist still has the copyright, and if so the artist should be able to choose who gets the rights after their death too. IMHO.
There are no such things as statutory fees in the UK copyright law, as far as I know (prove me wrong by all means!). There are just fees that have been legally decided for disputes between particular parties.
The purpose of UK copyright, these days, is again, to give creators 'right's over their 'copy'!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Comemercials!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: re: Dave Nattriss /Anon coward
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What if nobody ever played my record until 5 years after I published it? Would that mean that I shouldn't get any performance royalties at all because I recorded the performance 'years before'?
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Being in the office does make a difference because the licenses that the PRS and PPL issue to the radio broadcasters do not cover the music being performed (played) in commercial or public venues/spaces. The owners of the venues/spaces need their own license too for this (see all the messages above!).
I don't know whether they would count a home office as a commercial venue/space - probably not as the rule is generally if there are two or more people working there (see the case mentioned about the stables).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
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No. That's like saying it's logical that a legally bought shotgun should not be expected to break any laws when the trigger is pulled.
"we tuning in a radio station which broadcasts over the public airwaves that belong to the citizens, and using the signal that enters all of our homes and places of business whether we like it or not."
Sure, but it's not the receiving of the airwaves that is the problem. It's the performance (playing of recorded) music with (or without) permission of the owner of the recording and the writer(s)/owner of the publishing rights of the music, that matters here. If there was no music on the station that you're tuned to (as can often be the case), you wouldn't have any PRS/PPL issues to worry about.
The barber's choices are not *just* to boycott or leave the country. He can simply NOT PLAY THE MUSIC. If he doesn't like having to get the licenses that the owners require, he can simply NOT PLAY THE MUSIC. If he wants to negotiate with the owners, he can certainly give it a shot - if he made the case that he couldn't afford the license, perhaps some of the artists he wanted to play might give him free licenses to play it. But it's never been about whether he could afford it - just about his ignorance of the schemes that the artists have chosen to use.
Is it moral for artists to call the shots regarding their own work. Yes, I think so!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
Does the UK Freon Society exist, then? Or are you making it up for this hypothetical?
In any case, in UK law, individuals are given a lot more legal leeway than businesses. The barber was running a business. If I owned a refrigerator, it would likely be as an individual, as my own business doesn't utilise refrigeration at all. If I did own and use it as part of my business, I'll bet there'd be a whole bunch of health and safety laws that wouldn't apply as an individual.
Another weird choice of an example. Can't we just stick to the actual case in hand instead of trying to compare it to something difference?
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No, I have not said the law is right because it's the law. That makes no sense.
The best choice is to waste your time? No, I don't believe it's moot, the UK law cares what the majority of UK citizens thinks, but it would take a lot of effort to get most of the country to agree that creators aren't entitled to choose what happens to their work, IMHO.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
"Good artists should get rewards" - and what defines their goodness, out of interest?
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There was no lawsuit here. The barber was fined. He paid his fine. End of story.
What's PRL, sorry?
And yes, if you generally disagree with things in your society, your life isn't going to be particularly pleasant. But, as we say in the UK, that's life.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dave, Dave, Dave.
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As you say, the market valuing them at zero means they have no value to the market. It's quite simple maths - zero means nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. If the price of something is zero, it doesn't actually have a price at all. If I have zero apples in my hand, I don't have any apples. If nobody will buy my music, it has no financial value.
Zero is not a value. It is the only number that is not a value. It has no value, it's a nothing.
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:+zero
- nothing: a quantity of no importance
- indicating the absence of any or all units under consideration; "a zero score"
- of or relating to the null set (a set with no members)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Yes, of course they can, assuming they've not already granted licensing to the contrary that they are unable to cancel/revoke.
This is blatantly false. You have no right to keep your music off the radio.
Thanks for playing Dave. I can't see any point to responding to you further when you seem ignorant of the basics.
"Being in the public domain does not mean no one can sell it."
Sure it does. If something is in the public domain, you have no more rights to it than anyone else does. So if you want to sell it, you need permission from everyone else who owns it - i.e. everyone - and who's going to buy it when they already have the rights to it?!
Um. Again, totally wrong. 100% completely wrong.
Dave, I hate to say it: you are clueless. The public domain does not mean everyone has to give permission to sell something.
Go to your local bookstore and pick up a copy of a particular Shakespeare work. You do realize that his plays are in the public domain. Did the publisher get your permission to sell it? You just said he had to. Also, you claimed he had no need to sell it since you already had it.
Yet, I can guarantee you at any normal bookstore, you can buy yourself some Shakespeare plays.
How is that possible when you just said it was impossible?
That's complete rubbish, Mike. If you want to give up your copyright to your own work, before it expires by law, you can just do so. Declare it, ideally on a piece of paper that can be legally recognised - "I relinquish all copyright to this work, signed...". There you go - done. Now it's legally in the public domain, because that's what you, the author, have chosen to do with it.
That's actually not true, as we've discussed here in the past. Every country has different rules for how you can put your works into the public domain -- and some have NO SPECIFIC RULES, meaning that even if you declare it to be in the public domain, it might not be!
Actually, they are still using their copyrights. They are not surrendering them when if they were really giving their music away, they would be. They are retaining their rights, quite wisely, because they don't know what the future holds, and they are using them to control exactly how their works can be distributed. I asked you to show me business models that didn't use copyright at all - the ones that you showed me do still use them.
Dave. This is just wrong. You are 100% wrong. All of the models I showed do not use copyrights. Your ignorance on this subject is astounding, given that you continue to insist you only came here to educate us. Tons of people have tried to educate you.
You are clearly being willfully ignorant.
It's no way to go through life, but it's a waste of time to argue with someone who is working hard to blatantly misunderstand and misrepresent the facts. Your ignorance of copyright law and the public domain is not surprising. Many people are ignorant of those subjects. But your sheer insistence that you are correct on a subject you clearly know nothing about is really quite stunning.
Seriously. I've recommended many resources for you, but I will repeat James Boyle's book on the Public Domain. Please don't comment here again until you've read it cover to cover. For the sake of your own reputation. Learn a little before you spread more ignorance.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Yes, all industries that would enforce copyright's suspension of an individual's liberty are unethical. There are some industries such as the free software industry that do not.
A lot of people believe that copyright is fair, even when youngsters sharing music are fined millions of dollars. That widespread indoctrination that an 18th century privilege is fair makes people believe it to be fair, doesn't actually make it fair.
As to a creator being able to control what they create, of course they have a right to do this (where such creations are created privately, as they so often are). What people do not have a right to is to control other people, to have power over their fellow man. Thus if you make and sell a basket or a poem to someone you have no (natural) right to control what they do with it. As you know, copyright says otherwise and grants a transferable privilege such that the holder can exclude others from making copies. This is an 18th century privilege, an anachronistic hangover from a less egalitarian era. However, it is only now that so many individuals have their own 'printing presses' that they notice this privilege's derogation of their cultural liberty (to share and build upon their own culture).
Of course, having power, being able to control what others do, is very appealing, but that doesn't make such power a good thing. It makes it a bad thing. Copyright gives the holder power over everyone else on the planet. By nature, people don't have power over anyone apart from themselves. The most they can do is to exclude others from their private domain. Being able to control what anyone, anywhere in the world does with your published work is a very seductive power and is why those who covet such power will convince themselves that such power is justly theirs.
What you've got to realise is that copyright is ineffective. Despite its claims to the contrary, it cannot and does not give you the power to control what everyone else on the planet does with your published works. The reason is that the rest of the world would rather keep its cultural liberty and damn your privilege you claim supersedes it. Your published works WILL be shared, illicitly performed, broadcast, reproduced and distributed. They WILL be derived from, incorporated, remixed, edited, translated, and mashed up as others see fit. And that's the best you can hope for. At worst, no-one will touch your work with a barge pole - because it's devoid of any cultural value.
Recognising that copyright is unethical just helps you recognise why it must end, but it isn't the thing that brings it to an end. The thing that ends copyright is people. People who prefer their cultural liberty to a profitable press*.
* Copyright is a lucrative monopoly created for the benefit of the press (to sell copies). Copyright is not necessary for artists to be paid for their art (that's a myth spread by the press).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
You don't need a law book to recognise that the individual has a natural right to life (against murder), and to privacy (against burglary).
That individuals have such natural rights doesn't mean that people won't be interested in violating them (nor powerful lobbies to petition Queens to enact privileges against them).
That's why people create and empower government to protect their natural rights (and limit their power by constitutions in an attempt to prevent its corruption, e.g. the creation of privileges).
A government is empowered to protect the natural, pre-existing rights of those that empower it. It is not empowered to derogate from those rights in order to create privileges (rewarding the few at the expense of the many).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
You do in the UK. Our copyright law states that permission is required:
"A performer has the exclusive right to authorise the recording and/or broadcast of his performances (s. 182). The use or broadcast of recordings without the performer's consent (s. 183) and the import or distribution of illicit recordings (s. 184) are also infringements of the performer's rights."
"Go to your local bookstore and pick up a copy of a particular Shakespeare work. You do realize that his plays are in the public domain. Did the publisher get your permission to sell it? You just said he had to."
No, I said they had to get permission to sell the actual work, not a copy of it. I did go on to give an example of how you can make your own recording of a work in the public domain and sell that, to demonstrate that.
"Every country has different rules for how you can put your works into the public domain -- and some have NO SPECIFIC RULES, meaning that even if you declare it to be in the public domain, it might not be!"
We're not talking about 'every country' though, we're talking about the UK. Surely this is obvious by now.
In the US, apparently, there is no legal provision for putting your work into the public domain - however, this exists: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/publicdomain/ and also http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0_FAQ which lets you do it anyway.
"This is just wrong. You are 100% wrong"
No, I am right. The examples you showed me do use copyright so that the creators can still generate an income. If they fully surrendered their copyright, they would not have a business model. You can't have a business model with have copyright over something, as without it, you have nothing to sell.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
I believe copyright is fair because I value the creative process and intellectual property, not because an 18th century law made it legal.
Actually, if I sell something to someone, if part of the deal is that they can't do a certain thing with it, that's totally up to me as well. If they don't like it, they don't have to buy it. This isn't the right to control your fellow man, it's the right for two people to have a contract between each other that they both agree to. I don't believe there is any such 'cultural liberty' or right to share and build upon existing culture - *that* is a privilege.
"it cannot and does not give you the power to control what everyone else on the planet does with your published works" - of course it doesn't physically stop people going against your wishes, just like laws against murder don't stop people from killing each other, but as it's a law, it does give you legal standing to both discourage the actions, and potentially be compensated for any infringement.
"the rest of the world would rather keep its cultural liberty and damn your privilege you claim supersedes it"
Says who? Have you polled the rest of the world except for me?
"Your published works WILL be shared, illicitly performed, broadcast, reproduced and distributed. They WILL be derived from, incorporated, remixed, edited, translated, and mashed up as others see fit. And that's the best you can hope for"
No, the best I can hope for is that some of those who use it respect my wishes, whatever they may be. And some will. Just because some people infringe copyright, that doesn't mean everyone does.
Copyright is unethical?! How? And without it, how can artists earn a *fair* living? Relying on donations is not fair or relative to the amount that your art is used/viewed/heard/consumed.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Incidentally, all published works are in the public domain.
The only way of removing copyright's 'protection' from a work is to wait umpteen decades until it ceases, and that's not really 'removal', but expiry. The closest copyright holders can get is by issuing a copyright neutralising license. I guess it's possible they could make a public covenant not to sue, nor to transfer the copyright to anyone else not so covenanted, but that still doesn't actually dissolve the copyright. It is therefore impossible to remove copyright, except through an act of legislation.
And ultimately, the best legislative act of all is to abolish copyright.
Sure, that removes the business model of selling copies that cost nothing to make at monopoly protected prices, but it doesn't remove the business model of selling intellectual work at prices a free market will bear.
The free software movement should give you a clue that even without copyright's constraints coders are still able to sell their intellectual work, even if no-one bothers trying to sell copies of it (though they are of course free to).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
And again: Are you going to say it was a 'natural right' to steal physical property of others, or to kill others, or even kill out whole races, just because our ancestors could and did do this? A 'right' implies that it was deemed to be 'right' to do that - do you have evidence of homo sapiens agreeing upon this?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
Similarly, contracts are about exchange of goods, not making other people your slaves or subject to your control.
Having power over others is very seductive, so I'm not at all surprised you're in love with the idea and believe it is your right, but those you would control (or fine millions of dollars for disobeying you) aren't too keen on you having that power over them.
If you don't think it's unethical to sue youngsters millions of dollars for sharing music then you should read up on the Milgram experiment - where people allow authority to blind themselves to any sense of humanity. "This is the law. Infringers should be punished irrespective of whether the law is ethical, its penalties are proportionate, and least of all whether they can withstand the punishment."
Something tells me you still believe an 18th century privilege supersedes people's primordial and natural right to share music with each other.
As to earning a living, artists can earn a living the same way they always have, by selling their intellectual work to those who'll buy it from them. Admittedly, manufacturers of copies are going out of business (their monopoly no longer effective), so artists will soon see those customers disappearing. However, artists do have the more interested members of their audience to look to. If an artist saw only 1% of the revenue from 10,000 copies at $10 each, they may well see 100% of the revenue from 1,000 fans paying $1 each. The artist ends up with the same money. It's just that the copyright exploiting publisher no longer gets a 99% cut. That's the understandably aggrieved party - not the artist - and they will thus claim that artists will end up begging in the gutter unless copyright is fully enforced. No, it's the publisher ending up in the gutter (though corporations get struck off - being immortal).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
So when you give a possession to someone else, it then becomes that person's possession. That you created it doesn't give you any power over what happens to it AFTER YOU'VE GIVEN IT TO SOMEONE ELSE. Of course, everyone would like such power, but they don't have it by nature. It takes an unjust law, a privilege, to confer such power. However, if a wealthy enough cartel lobby hard enough (such as the Stationers' Guild in 1709) they can get such laws enacted and extended, i.e. to grant holders of such privileges power over who can/cannot print copies of particular works. Their modern successors are known by different names.
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Re: Re: Re: Dave = WTF?
"And you claim I lied?". Actually you even quoted me: "claims to not be connected in the industry but apparently he is" apparently is not a claim, more of a suspicion based on something I read, which I placed some belief in.
"Those in opposition are really just stating the obvious - the law NEEDS to be changed."
This is subjective. Those who write songs, but don't perform them, or who perform them but don't write them, might not agree. They might like the licenses being separated so that the licensing is more granular and ultimately fairer. And that's why they are.
Dave, Dave, Dave, please wake up before replying!! The statement "Those in opposition..." clearly defines who I am talking about and is NOT subjective in the least - stay out of my thoughts and quit trying to append them since you clearly don't understand them.
What ship is this, sorry? You already admitted that "the side with the absurd law wins", which I guess you mean is me, or my country?
Actually, my disagreement with "your country" was settled back in the 1700's by my ancestors - we know how that ended because the USA is independent from British rule - thankfully!
As for yourself, I am merely stating that the barber did break the existing UK law ("the side with the absurd law wins") but I and many others here have stated reasons why we believe this to be unfair/unnatural and in need of correction.
I'd be happy to have a rematch of the war we fought a couple of hundred years ago, but that seems completely unnecessary in modern times, if that's what it took to correct what I, and many others, believe to be unfair.
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Re: Re: Again, REALLY?? C'mon Dave!
The point here - which you miserably failed to understand - is morality rests within each individual regardless of what a piece of paper may have written on it. You repeatedly linked laws with morality in your posts as you can see myself and others had the same impression.
[RANT] Morals are strictly an individuals interpretation of the world around them. Sometimes groups of individuals try to define morality for the masses. It's fairly easy to get a consensus on a majority of topics (killing someone is wrong) but circumstances will prove there are always exceptions: killing someone in self defense is nearly universally acceptable. Most of the planet believe in some religion and that the religious writings of their particular faith are the correct "moral" compass for them. Some insist it's for everyone but then we find ourselves right back to your point of having control over others and their actions. However, very few religions are actually tolerant of other religions. Logic makes short work of this fortunately: if the majority of people divided into hundreds subsections believe only they/their group is right, and there is only one actual but unknown truth (that's why it's called faith) then the majority of people are wrong. The sad part is they have no idea who is correct or if ANY of them are correct. If only one group was correct with their interpretation then the (vast) majority are wrong. If none of them are correct about the unknown truth (assume no God of any type) then they are ALL incorrect and as such, their teachings and/beliefs are questionable as well because it is not based on the absolute truth.[/RANT]
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The "moral majority" is rarely either.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
No, I said they had to get permission to sell the actual work, not a copy of it. I did go on to give an example of how you can make your own recording of a work in the public domain and sell that, to demonstrate that.
Um. What? How do you define the difference between "the actual work" and "a copy of it"? By this reasoning, it's perfectly fine what the hairdresser did in this case, because they were only broadcasting a copy of the work, not "the actual work".
Do you realize how this contradicts what you are saying?
No, I am right. The examples you showed me do use copyright so that the creators can still generate an income. If they fully surrendered their copyright, they would not have a business model. You can't have a business model with have copyright over something, as without it, you have nothing to sell.
Not true at all. Not a single one of the examples used copyright, and all of those business models work whether or not the individual has copyright.
Your insistence that copyright is needed for a business model is ridiculous. I've declared my work here to be in the public domain and yet I still have a business model. According to you, that's impossible.
You are wrong, and it's time you admitted it.
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Society *permits* copyright in *exchange*
Those who *benefit* from this nice allowance would be wise to *quit* enforcing the "privilege" at gunpoint, and definitely to quit grabbing for more.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If I took it, it should be gone, right?
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Because if I am, you just made the argument that if I own a radio, for my own personal use, and my co-workers cannot hear it...
I am still not allowed to bring it onto my employer's property.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Happy
You might want to try it sometime.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A few good points
Personally, I'll go with these three for you: Under-evolved dung.
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They're both unhealthy.
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I'd like to thank you for demonstrating that your ignorance is inclusive of mathematics and philosophy as well, and would request you not mind-fuck my chosen profession any further by pretending to knowledge you don't have.
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I'd like to thank you for demonstrating that your ignorance is inclusive of mathematics and philosophy as well, and would request you not mind-fuck my chosen profession any further by pretending to knowledge you don't have.
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I'd like to thank you for demonstrating that your ignorance is inclusive of mathematics and philosophy as well, and would request you not mind-fuck my chosen profession any further by pretending to knowledge you don't have.
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I'd like to thank you for demonstrating that your ignorance is inclusive of mathematics and philosophy as well, and would request you not mind-fuck my chosen profession any further by pretending to knowledge you don't have.
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Re: Re: Whoa!!
You don't pay taxes in the UK?
Your public airwaves don't belong to the public?
A couple of hundred years ago, people on this side of the pond preferred Dutch tea, the British insisted on taxing the Dutch Tea to the point where the only "reasonable" option would be English tea. The Boston Tea party ensued along with a war. Now we have a choice on what tea we drink along with a nice chunk of land - that BP is wrecking as we speak.
Keep taxing/licensing (yes collection societies are basically a tax-type burden in my view) your way right out of existence - it's unfortunate the process takes so long.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Double dipping refers to getting paid twice for the same thing not necessarily getting paid the same amount twice.
I said what I meant and I meant what I said but you are having difficulty with comprehension which, despite my best efforts, I just can't seem to help you with.
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What about handing out Personal Radios?
What about if a patron brings a radio into the shop? Should the barber force the patron to turn it off?
Is the above any different if everyone is wearing headphones connected to their radio?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
But seriously, "If the price of something is zero, it doesn't actually have a price at all." Wrong, and self-disproving in one sentence.
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Voting with your dollars don't mean shit when you (and people who would vote like you) haven't got any.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: (@Dave Nattriss) Really?
No. Because people arguing with you are trying to use analogy to illustrate how ludicrous your position is. It is a standard, and even excellent way to make a point.
We, however, are failing nonetheless.
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It is only because you don't like analogy that you find the commenters to be "mistakenly" interpreting the UK case based on US law.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Copyright not supposed to work this way?
You're going to like my answer here. The market. The market for their valuable free goods, and the market for their valuable scarce goods.
I said you'd 'like it'. But I fear you won't 'understand it'.
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" if something is seen to be morally wrong and affects lots of people, it's much easier to get lots of people to support motions to change it. Democracy, essentially."
What about when something is morally wrong and affects few people?
Or when something is morally wrong and affects lots of people, but only by a very small amount such that they can't be bothered?
The system should be designed to also right those wrongs.
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No, it is not. Please look the word up in a dictionary. In no way is an an analogy the argument that two separate things are similar or the same.
"Smoking and licensing fees are not the same, or similar. Your analogy failed."
I never said they were. I was drawing an analogy between two situations, not between smoking and licensing fees.
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God damn you are stupid.
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Roof Top Radio
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Re: UK TV Licences
"The strawman you have erected has not been recognised. Please check and try again."
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Re: Re: Radio remotes
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The UK radio licence was scrapped in the 70's
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So Can I ?
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Re: So Can I ?
Legally, yes, but that doesn't mean the societies will not try to collect from you. They have no ethical standards at all.
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Re: Re:
Read the Pirate's Guide to Patents, Trademarks, and Copyrights for the straight skinny.
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How to undermine this?
Although a lot of us realise that charging people to listen to the radio in public is bullshit, PRS seem to be successful in presenting themselves as operating in the public's interest, without dissent.
How to undermine this?
I don't know. Maybe by spreading word of the issue, by posting about it elsewhere, by visiting anti-PRS pages... anything to get a more balanced result in Google when people search for PRS. These days, Google is God, and we want a god that is more just.
(Thanks for letting us know about your book Dave)
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Delivering music from non-PRS artists
We have therefore started offering their music to our clients, at a cost that is usually around £5 more per month than our PRS/PPL service would be, but the artists and writers are paid a share of what we take, rather than the site requiring PRS and PPL licenses. The first client we took onto this service saves around £185k per year, and even the smaller companies can be looking at savings that would equal the expected spend of several hundred of their customers, so it makes a huge difference to their bottom line.
Offering a service like this also supports those artists and writers with the guts to step out on their own and try and control how their music is used and distributed. We're also not spending millions in 'admin' every year, so there's a higher percentage of the money getting back to the music creators.
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