As Elon Fires More Trust & Safety Staff, Twitter’s Moderation Efforts Fall Apart

from the this-is-infruriating dept

Despite having already fired a huge percentage of Twitter’s trust & safety team handling issues around content moderation, including the teams handling child sexual abuse material and election denialism, last week Elon apparently fired another chunk of the team. Just in time for organizers of the insurrection in Brazil to make use of social media to help them organize.

Researchers in Brazil said Twitter in particular was a place to watch because it is heavily used by a circle of right-wing influencers — Bolsonaro allies who continue to promote election fraud narratives. Several influencers have had their accounts banned in Brazil and now reside in the United States. Bolsonaro himself was on vacation in Florida on Sunday.

Still, as the article notes, the planning seemed to happen on many platforms, so it’s not as if Twitter was the only one. But perhaps more serious is the issue of child sexual abuse material. There has been this weird narrative making the rounds that Twitter, under the previous regime, did not take the issue seriously. And that since Elon took over, it has done much more to stop CSAM. Both parts of this narrative appear to be false.

Experts who used to work with Twitter specifically on this issue say that the teams working on it have been mostly fired, as Elon insists that automation will somehow work in their place (note: automation is important in finding repeat content that has been added to various databases, but… not good at all at catching new content). It does not sound like things are going well.

The ex-employee outlined to CNA how automated machine-learning models often struggle to catch up with the evolving modus operandi of perpetrators of child sexual abuse material.

Trading such content on Twitter involves treading a fine line between being obvious enough to prospective “buyers” yet subtle enough to avoid detection.

In practice, this means speaking in codewords that are ever-changing, to try and evade enforcement. 

And so abusers are able to stay ahead of Twitter’s efforts:

With fewer content moderators and domain specialists in Twitter to keep track of such changes, there’s a danger that abusers will take the opportunity to coordinate yet another new set of codewords that automated systems and a smaller team cannot quickly pick up, said the ex-employee.

We’ve also heard some other disturbing claims from inside Twitter, including that Twitter has cut back, significantly, on the support that its trust & safety staff get, such as important and necessary counseling support for frontline workers who deal with these issues. This is, of course, always the awful tradeoff with these kinds of roles and jobs. You need some people in the process, but it’s a terrible job which can create real post-traumatic stress for those employees.

The same article notes that the automated takedowns are actually causing other problems, like suppressing victims speaking out about what happened to them:

“A victim drawing attention to their plight, having no easy way to do so and in a compromised situation or state of mind, might easily use problematic hashtags and keywords,” they said.

Failure to distinguish such uses of language could conversely end up silencing and re-victimising those suffering from child sexual abuse, they said.

Indeed, after that article came out, an NBC investigation showed that (again, contrary to the narrative), it does not appear that new Twitter is particularly effective in dealing with the issue of CSAM.

The accounts seen by NBC News promoting the sale of CSAM follow a known pattern. NBC News found tweets posted as far back as October promoting the trade of CSAM that are still live — seemingly not detected by Twitter — and hashtags that have become rallying points for users to provide information on how to connect on other internet platforms to trade, buy and sell the exploitative material. 

In the tweets seen by NBC News, users claiming to sell CSAM were able to avoid moderation with thinly veiled terms, hashtags and codes that can easily be deciphered. 

Some of the tweets are brazen and their intention was clearly identifiable (NBC News is not publishing details about those tweets and hashtags so as not to further amplify their reach).  While the common abbreviation “CP,” a ubiquitous shortening of “child porn” used widely online, is unsearchable on Twitter, one user who had posted 20 tweets promoting their materials used another searchable hashtag and wrote “Selling all CP collection,” in a tweet published on Dec. 28. The tweet remained up for a week until the account appeared to be suspended following NBC News’ outreach to Twitter. A search Friday found similar tweets still remaining on the platform. Others used keywords associated with children, replacing certain letters with punctuation marks like asterisks, instructing users to direct message their accounts. Some accounts even included prices in the account bios and tweets.

CSAM is a massive issue across any social media platform. There is no “solution” to it that will stop it from happening, but it’s an ever evolving challenge that many companies work on, using ever changing approaches to deal with the fact that the perpetrators are constantly adapting as well. Twitter used to be one of the leading companies in responding to this challenge, but now it appears that the opposite is true.

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Comments on “As Elon Fires More Trust & Safety Staff, Twitter’s Moderation Efforts Fall Apart”

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Too stupid for words are you?

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/new-guidelines-treating-childhood-obesity-include-medications-surgery-rcna64651

https://www.theverge.com/interface/2020/5/13/21255994/facebook-content-moderator-lawsuit-settlement-mental-health-issues

You just have a bad information. Its the Internet.

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Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re:

So, faced with a repulsive situation where sexual abusers of children – and in case you want to pretend these are nearly adult teens, almost all this material involves toddlers and babies – you choose to use it to (a) spout drivel supporting Elon Musk, who must be protected on all counts from the slings and arrows of social media commenters lest he get a nose bleed; and (b) utterly trivialise the abuse of children and the effect on people trying to stop this abuse.

You are a revolting individual. Not mentally ill – mental illness doesn’t cause this kind of behaviour. You are just devoid of any worth as a human person. Pure, unwanted garbage.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

[A] great deal of what is legally “child porn” is actually post-pubescent minors, not babies and toddlers.

No one is saying otherwise. The issue here is that the specific child porn at issue does mostly consist of babies and toddlers. If you have evidence to dispute that, go ahead, but this isn’t about what material is legally child porn but rather what material is being removed from websites for being legally considered child porn (or suspected of being such).

There is a difference there, mainly in that it’s a lot easier to distinguish porn that depicts babies and toddlers from porn depicting adults than it is to distinguish porn depicting post-pubescent minors from porn depicting adults; the latter basically requires either the subject or someone who knows the subject’s age due to personal familiarity to point out that the subject is not of age. After all, many post-pubescent minors look older than they are, and many adults look (sometimes quite significantly) younger than they are.

It should be noted that, depending on the age, maturity, and independence of the individual, I’d be willing to entertain the idea that some content legally considered child porn should not be, but merely being post-pubescent doesn’t make the child porn not immoral or disgusting. I’m choosing to go with a more charitable interpretation of what you said (that what you really meant was minors close to the age of majority or who look like they are of age) because I prefer it over the alternative and can rationalize it to myself without going to ridiculous lengths, but as worded, it sounds like you’re implying that child porn of minors who aren’t prepubescent is just fine. I suggest wording things more carefully in the future.

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Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re:

[The term ‘third world country’ is outdated and offensive.

However, using the commonly understood meaning of that term, the USA has been described as a third world country only with rich people, and that’s increasingly accurate.]

No country is free from CSA, or from producing/consuming CSAM. Twitter is a global operation. The idea that any policing of this material is a purely American concern is laughable.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

It is kind of outdated, but the offensiveness is from using the term incorrectly. (Which is, indeed, offensive.) The term was mostly misused from the get, so, not surprising.

Describing the US as “third world” goes squarely against the definition. Using commonly adjacent terms such as “developing”, well, i don’t think the US qualifies. It’s a stagnating empire. “Banana Republic” is probably close, as the US did to itself what it did to others, without noticing apparently, because we’re so stupid that if we don’t see banana, pineapple, or sugarcane being grown here, we think it doesn’t apply. (OTOH, that term is sorta kinda problematic too, as it has been used.)

i think, unfortunately, in the words of some asshole, that the phrase “shithole country” applies pretty well.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

It’s like Elon is systematically firing anyone who knows more about social media platforms than him and finding out that that’s damn near everyone working there…

Of all the employees that should be last to be thrown out the door from any social media platform ‘the people being paid to find and get rid of heinous content involving children so that hopefully as few other people as possible have to see it’ should really be up there at the top, which makes the fact that he keeps firing them look all sorts of terrible at best.

Forget racism, sexism, harassment or toxic users, if there’s one sort of content that no advertisers are going to want to share a platform with it’s the content that he seems to be utterly indifferent towards, so well played if he wants to make the previous exodus of advertisers look downright glacial in pace I guess.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:

No, it isn’t, that’s been reported right here on techdirt.

Demanding a citation isn’t terribly interesting — when provided you’ll just attack the source. It’s essentially a troll.

“Media is biased towards the Left” –> “sOurCE?!?”–>provides source–>”Well that’s just a right wing rag!” (keep in mind no left-wing rag covered the subject)

It’s a game so dumb it’s better not to play.

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No, it isn’t, that’s been reported right here on techdirt.

Demanding a citation isn’t terribly interesting — when provided you’ll just attack the source. It’s essentially a troll.

If it’s been reported here on Techdirt, it should be easy for you to link to it, and, given where we are, we would be less likely to attack it.

Just be honest for once, and admit that you have no source.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

that’s been reported right here on techdirt

Then provide the relevant link.

Demanding a citation isn’t terribly interesting — when provided you’ll just attack the source. It’s essentially a troll.

I don’t attack a source for information unless I have reason to believe the source is less than credible. And asking for a citation of fact from someone who states a fact isn’t a troll⁠—it’s asking the claimant to actually back up their claim.

“Media is biased towards the Left” –> “sOurCE?!?”–>provides source–>”Well that’s just a right wing rag!”

When a source is known to be less than credible on such issues for reasons of partisan hackery, I won’t treat it as if it has the credibility of a far more credible outlet. And yes, while I do have something of a blind spot for left-leaning media outlets, I’m still willing to own that⁠—and my biases are well-known around here besides, so if I link to a(n ostensibly) left-leaning outlet, chances are good that I’m not doing that because of partisan hackery.

If you want to be taken seriously when you make a citation of fact, cite credible sources of fact instead of liars and malcontents who want to fellate your biases and make you angry and afraid of “leftists” forever. Otherwise, you’re no better than the rest of the troll brigade to which you already belong.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Pathetic

Absolutely Pathetic Mike!

From your source

“But since that declaration, at least dozens of accounts have continued to post hundreds of tweets in aggregate using terms,”

Seems bad but when compared to a few months ago.

“A cybersecurity group called Ghost Data identified more than 500 accounts that have openly shared or requested child sexual abuse material over a 20-day period.” Reuters ~ Sept 2022
https://www.reuters.com/article/twitter-csam-exclusive-idCAKBN2QT1JX

So Musk has objectively reduced CSAM by a factor of 10 in a few months.

You are one apathetic manipulate piece of shit Mike.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

Apart from the objections already raised, it seem that the reason stated in the very evidence you provided is that the drop in CSAM is due to advertisers opting to stop campaigns during Musk’s reign of incompetence.

The results might possibly be there, but I don’t think that “the site is so toxic nobody wants to pay them for advertising” is something to boast about, no matter who is in charge.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Uh, okay, so you are making the same mistake politicians make where they “see” a bit of suspicious activity, and assume that is representative of overall moderation. The same logic could be applied to the previous Twitter.

The actual story is that Elon is relying too much on automation and sweeping censorship. This means legitimate content keeps getting swept up. Bad actors can just circumvent him.

There is no particular evidence the level of criminal activity has gotten better or worse. In theory, it could be getting worse, although it is impossible to say, by just looking at a bit of superficial activity.

Looking for a bit of superficial activity might be satisfying when dunking on an enemy. However, it ends up setting unrealistic ideas of how social media moderation is supposed to be.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Elon is relying too much on automation and sweeping censorship.

There is no particular evidence the level of criminal activity has gotten better or worse.

If flawed automated moderation can’t keep up with the criminal activity and most of the people who could have been keeping up with it were fired, the chances of a rise in the level of criminal activity is significantly higher than you want us to believe.

Musk isn’t God. He can’t solve the CSAM problem on his own regardless of how much money and automated moderation he tosses at it. He had people who could’ve helped him do it, but he doesn’t seem too interested in working with anyone but his most loyal ass-kissers.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

This is very poor logic.

All accounts that kiddie porn are indeed very much down since Musk took over. Nothing in your post actually contradicts that “Ex-employee claims shit” is kinda meaningless and that NBC found it Still exists is too.

“Still exists” and “very much reduced” are in no way incompatible, and it’s misleading to act as if they are. As you pointed out it’s a tough fight to fight.

But of course, that’s par for the course. You hate Musk on a personal level and are very clearly willing to lie about him. Whether it’s because he took care of your preferred brand of government censorship or because he rejects liberal sacred cows I don’t much care, you are very clearly misleading for personal and very biased reasons.

All evidence is that the vast majority of Twitter’s former staff was just useless and eminently cuttable, presumably including most of the “Trust and safety staff” which rather than doing things we can all support like hunting down kiddie porn, seemed to be primarily engaged in political censorship and making sure no one used the wrong pronouns or they shall be treated as a war criminal.

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Rocky says:

Re: Re: Re:3

As always, you just can’t stop proving how much of a simpleton you are.

Now tell us, what’s the minimum of employees and contractors needed to service ~370 million users all over the world in multiple languages?

You seem to indicate you are an expert on this, so it should be simple for you to answer the above question.

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Pseudonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Must. Not. Feed. Troll.

Ah, screw it.

The last time I checked, Blizzard isn’t stupid enough to run a social network. So it’s completely useless as a comparator.

To answer your question, Twitter had so many employees because running a major social network is, you know, difficult.

It requires content moderation at a scale so vast it is beyond many people’s comprehension. Which is impossible to do perfectly.

Doing it even remotely well requires making a staggering number of complex decisions every minute of every day. Many of which turn on a proper understanding of context.

And that requires people. Lots of people. Many more people than you, me or anyone other than a genuine expert in the field might expect.

And on top of that there’s all the folk needed to actually code the damned app, and keep it running. And sell advertising to pay the bills. And protect user data from malicious actors. And so on, and so on.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“It requires content moderation at a scale so vast it is beyond many people’s comprehension. Which is impossible to do perfectly.”

“And that requires people. Lots of people. Many more people than you, me or anyone other than a genuine expert in the field might expect.”

“Moderation is best implemented by algorithmic choice.”

Checkmate … go fuck yourself you piece of shit!

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Considering yo’ve practically lied about just about everything related to you…

Nope, I don’t trust anything you say.

I dont particularly care about who you want to fuck, but since you don’t know ANYTHING about the issues bisexual Latino men face, you are highly likely lying about your gender.

Just like how you’ve lied about your job, your race/ethnogroup, or just about EVERYTHING you claim to be.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Oh, you don’t fuck “men”. You fuck significantly younger influencers who slide along the gender spectrum because you have a severely desperate need to show how much of an alpha you are, then boast about it like it’s some kind of meaningful achievement to systematically manipulate and live off Onlyfans money.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Or I was a sexually abused child which affected my sexuality as an adult.

Are we really resorting to trotting out that old debunked trope? Everybody knows sexual abuse doesn’t affect sexuality, that’s just an old pathetic straight white guy lie to lull people into believing that non-straight people are groomers. And we all know that doesn’t exist.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Blizzard… the company that’s been eating shit ever since the Activision merger, the harassment involving Jesse McCree, the slew of absolutely player-unfriendly decisions made for Diablo Immortal, Hearthstone and Overwatch 2? That’s your checkmate argument?

When you’re hemorrhaging users, needing fewer people to manage them is not a sign of achievement.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

How is that any different from a major studio like Blizzard?

Blizzard’s userbase may be comparable to the Twitter userbase in terms of size. But in terms of overall activity, Twitter likely takes the crown. Remember, we’re talking about a service used by hundreds of millions of people (and bots) worldwide all day⁠—and that’s counting mere browsing as well as actual posting. If you think moderating all that content and keeping that service running as smooth as possible doesn’t take a massive amount of human resources, especially given the number of countries in which Twitter is used, you’re showing more ignorance than you think.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re: Re:6

This is actually a very dumb comparison. Blizzard has a complex set of games to maintain with many servers and all those connections involve intensive load. Twitter is a glorified message board. In terms of bits per second I’m sure Blizzard handles much more (videos on twitter may tip that) but the complexity is much greater regardless.

You assume 7000 people are required because 1) you think those 7000 people were actually performing useful functions 2) that intense moderation efforts are good and required. Neither of those things are true.

You liked the previous liberal based (and government influenced) censorship machine. You’re not upset about people being fired, you’re upset that’s gone. I’m glad.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Blizzard has a complex set of games to maintain with many servers and all those connections involve intensive load. Twitter is a glorified message board.

And that “glorified message board” is used by millions of people (and bots) around the world all day. Much like YouTube, Twitter has an unimaginable amount of data going through its servers every hour⁠—and that’s in text, image, and video formats. To think that such a service wouldn’t need a large full-time staff to make sure the service doesn’t crash and handle all the legal requests from governments and moderate the service for TOS-violating content is to display an overwhelming amount of ignorance.

You assume 7000 people are required

No, I don’t. I would bet that Twitter did have a few redundancies in its departments, and perhaps getting rid of a few of them would’ve been for the best. But axing most of the staff⁠—including the staff that were working on the CSAM issue⁠—is not “getting rid of a few redundancies”.

that intense moderation efforts are good and required

If a service like Twitter wants to keep its userbase (and advertisers)? Yes, intense moderation efforts are good and required. Otherwise, you’ll end up with a shithole like 4chan⁠—or worse.

You liked the previous liberal based (and government influenced) censorship machine.

Given how Twitter bent over backwards to placate conservative voices unless they really went over the line in their TOS violations⁠—up to and including keeping Donald Trump on the service until after the insurrection⁠—I’d say Twitter having a “liberal bias” is a bit of a misdirect. You also seem to assume that Twitter’s rules against posting bigoted speech were aimed at conservatives; that assumption doesn’t speak well of conservatives.

Also, Twitter didn’t and can’t censor anyone. I point to Donald Trump as the ultimate proof. But hey, feel free to point out how Twitter violated his civil rights…if you can.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Also, Twitter didn’t and can’t censor anyone. I point to Donald Trump as the ultimate proof. But hey, feel free to point out how Twitter violated his civil rights…if you can.

This is a dumb comment, since people here seem to understand that the Constitution generally only applies to government actors.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

people here seem to understand that the Constitution generally only applies to government actors

That’s exactly my point: Twitter can’t violate anyone’s civil rights. It can’t stop anyone it bans from going somewhere else and saying the same thing that got them banned. And if Twitter following the FBI’s suggestions were an actual example of censorship, the FBI would ultimately be responsible because it would’ve made Twitter censor people at the government’s behest.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

You are not legally allowed to engage in a conspiracy against the rights of the people that the law makes no different ion between public and private actors.

Cool. Now prove Twitter engaged in a conspiracy to deprive people of their First Amendment rights.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

It has BEEN proven.

No, it hasn’t. The FBI didn’t coerce or threaten Twitter into acting on the suggestions sent to Twitter; that’s per the FBI letter that was revealed as part of the “Twitter Files”. In more than half those cases, Twitter took no action and suffered no penalty or punishment for doing so; that’s apparent by the fact that the FBI never announced it was levying any such penalties or punishments against Twitter. To prove a conspiracy between Twitter and the FBI to deny any American citizen of their First Amendment rights, you have to disprove something with a shitload of credibility: the evidence provided by Elon Musk himself that says it didn’t happen.

Unless, of course, you want to claim that the evidence I’m talking about is bogus⁠—in which case, you can’t even claim that the FBI sent that letter, which means your whole-ass argument falls apart.

So which is it: Does the letter have credibility and thus denies what you claim, or does the letter have no credibility and thus denies your entire argument?

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“This is actually a very dumb comparison.”

“Blizzard has a complex set of games to maintain with many servers and all those connections involve intensive load.”

That was the point of my original comparison. Blizzard has much more work across many more complex platforms and doesn’t need that many employees.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

My extremely limited knowledge of how the backend stuff is done implies that outside of certain things unique to gaming, maintaining global network of servers, data cernters and whatnot is a complex p=series of processses that absolutely needs a lot of people.

Sure, the individual datacenters might need less people to do everyday checks once the place is set up, but still, every datacenter and process has a headcount, and thsoe add up.

Not like you’d care, liar.

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bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Their CEO is well known for being greedy and cutting too many corners. Do you have any examples who don’t financially benefit from reducing the number of employees?

Seriously, Activision-Blizzard is like the AT&T of video games in that everyone hates them (for good reason), underperform and overcharge, and don’t seem to know what they’re doing beyond trying to make more money in the short term no matter what it takes and regardless of the results in the long term. Pointing to them as an example of a “bloated” company with a good track record shows you really don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Care to explain why a company that maintains a single application needed 7,000 employees and 4,000 contractors?

For starters, the company serves a lot of countries, and each one has its own set of rules (we call those “laws”) that Twitter needs to follow to stay active in those countries. Twitter needs employees who can moderate the service without doing anything illegal in both that country and the United States.

Then there’s the Trust and Safety Team, which⁠—as the article notes⁠—was largely responsible for Twitter’s efforts to keep CSAM off the service.

Then there’s coders, lawyers, and various other positions that may not need as many people in them as Twitter had, but certainly weren’t making Twitter worse because they were there.

Then there’s positions like janitors that, while seemingly “unnecessary”, are actually some of the most important positions in the realm of the physical. (A CEO could miss work for a week without anyone noticing; a janitor can’t miss work for a week without everyone noticing.)

I’m sure there were a few redundancies within Twitter and maybe an executive or three who didn’t need to be there. But Musk has slashed so much of Twitter’s workforce that Twitter not yet completely collapsing is a minor miracle.

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Matthew M Bennett says:

Re: Re:

I’m hostile to your worldview, and I think everyone offering bullshit excuses like “but the FBI didn’t ORDER them to ban them!” either just a fucking idiot or lying.

I am not generally hostile to people who disagree with me. I am hostile to both partisan stupidity and hypocrisy.

I don’t even know who this Richard you’re talking about is. Get fucked, dude, you’re spouting dumbshit.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

PeaceFire Redux

provide information on how to connect on other internet platforms

This always happens. The censors start by claiming they will only censor the “bad stuff”. Inevitably, once people start discussing how to get around the censorship, the censors then start banning those discussions as well, even though those discussions don’t have any of the bad stuff.

We’ve lost the war on drugs, the war on climate change, the war on illegal aliens, the way on copyright piracy, and every other “war” that comes between people and what they want. It should come as no surprise that the war on kiddy porn is also failing, regardless of who owns the platforms.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

The censors start by claiming they will only censor the “bad stuff”. Inevitably, once people start discussing how to get around the censorship, the censors then start banning those discussions as well, even though those discussions don’t have any of the bad stuff.

You…you do realize they’re talking about CSAM in that context, right? Like, you sound like you’re on the side of the child pornographers there.

It should come as no surprise that the war on kiddy porn is also failing, regardless of who owns the platforms.

And that’s not doing you any favors, either.

JFC, Hyman, you’re already a racist and a queerphobe. You don’t have to add “pedophile” to the list; most of us here already think you’re a huge piece of shit.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Purge the right-wingers and replace them with drag queens, yuri fiction writers, anal vore artists, anyone and everyone far more fabulous and deserving. Right-wingers can either accept their place in the world or be taught how to do it. On their knees, worshipping the futanari master race.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I think you think Hyman and other idiots who dare to disagree with sexual minorities should be shamed into the ground, never to rise as any form of meaningful power, and you will stand by anyone who disagrees with him.

It’s no contest. I’d rather children were educated by prostitutes than priests.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Either way make sure you get the money up front bro

“and you will stand by anyone who disagrees with him.”

And there’s where you done fucked up. Unlike him, and apparently you. I won’t abandon my morals to shit on someone else’s parade. I fuck with him because he’s a bigot, period. I’m not on a side to score gotcha points. I may be a second rate troll but at least I’m not a republican.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I think you think Hyman and other idiots who dare to disagree with sexual minorities should be shamed into the ground, never to rise as any form of meaningful power, […]

Not completely wrong so far, though a bit lacking in nuance for my tastes.

[…] and you will stand by anyone who disagrees with him.

Absolutely not! Just because he’s wrong doesn’t mean that anyone who disagrees with him is any more correct than he is. “The Earth is flat,” is wrong, and so is “The Earth is a torus.” There can be more than one wrong answer.

Similarly, saying “homosexuality/transgender-ism is wrong” is bigoted, but saying “heterosexuality/cisgender-ism is wrong” is equally bigoted. Saying “Lesbians should be r@ped by a man to see how good straight sex is,” is wrong on so many levels, but saying “Straight men should be r@ped by men/futas to see how good receiving anal sex is,” is equally wrong and for almost the exact same reasons. Saying “Femboys are inherently inferior,” is wrong, but saying “Femboys are inherently superior,” is also wrong.

So no, I absolutely won’t stand with someone just because they are opposed to transphobia if they are bigoted in other ways. From where I stand, both of you are wrong and deserve to be shamed. I am honestly appalled that you believe that anyone here would stand with you just because of your opposition to transphobia and homophobia.

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

What do you mean by “disagree with sexual minorities”? There’s a vast difference between people declaring what they like and people declaring what they are. If men want to have sex with other men, or with shoes, or profoundly wish they were women, other people are in no position to tell them that they do not want what they want (although they are allowed their own moral objections that they may not impose). But if men declare that they are women, they are factually incorrect, and then of course people should disagree with them, because they are wrong.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Not everything can be characterized as being on a left-right political axis. If I have to call myself something, perhaps it’s “truth-based socialist libertarian”. People should be free to live their lives as they see fit as long as they do not force other people to behave in ways that those people object to. People should be allowed to express what they believe is the truth, and should not be able to compel other people to affirm those beliefs or to deny their own. The government should act for the common good of its citizens and not always seek to put its services in private hands.

Toom1275 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

People should be free to live their lives as they see fit as long as they do not force other people to behave in ways that those people object to.

Transphobic vermin have no right to force Trans people to change their behavior, correct.

People should be allowed to express what they believe is the truth, and should not be able to compel other people to affirm those beliefs or to deny their own.

Transphobes have no right to force Trans people to adhere to transphobes’ false beliefs about gender.

The government should act for the common good of its citizens and not always seek to put its services in private hands.

The government has no place forcing sites to not moderate away those who cause harm.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

“People should be free to live their lives as they see fit as long as they do not force other people to behave in ways that those people object to.”

Indeed, which is why things like attempts to install a Christian theocracy, deny equal rights to the LBGT community or deny women right to their own bodies are so problematic. To take the bathroom example – a trans woman is way more likely to be the victim of sexual assault than a woman is to be the victim of an assault by someone using those rights as a loophole, but people like you want to insist that they’re not free to live their lives without that risk.

You think you’re defending freedom, but in reality you’re just trying to ensure that straight white cis males have more rights than others, and object to actual equality.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It is real women who are most affected by men pretending to be women insisting on having access to women’s single-sex spaces and usurping real women’s leadership positions in feminist organizations.

Claims of relative safety are irrelevant with respect to bathrooms, just as illegal aliens who might feel safer in America than nevertheless have no right to be here. Many people have religious, cultural, and social taboos around permitting people whose bodies disqualify them into their single-sex spaces, and those people claiming that they feel safer in the spaces where they have intruded imposes no obligation on anyone else to allow them in.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

This is why we must mock cis white males into the ground. We cannot progress as a species so long as they retain even a single shred of power they have proven themselves incapable of holding responsibly.

It is high time we demand that all males surrender their wives to their rightful futas, put on a thong, and get on their knees for the BBC new world order.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Given the endless prattling of Tim Cushing about the evils of law enforcement, readers of TechDirt can hardly be unaware that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Street drugs are terrible too: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/07/health/fentanyl-xylazine-drug.html
That doesn’t mean that the attempts to fight them haven’t led to terrible knock-on effects. When it comes to kiddy porn or terrorism, we already see governments using those as a reason to prevent people in general from communicating securely and privately. Not everything done in the name of fighting evil ought to be done.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

Nobody here would argue that every step taken to curb things like illegal drug trades and CSAM distribution is the right one⁠—legally, morally, or ethically. But Hyman’s post came off as him saying “fighting the war on CSAM is pointless, so give up”, which…uh…well, that doesn’t exactly have a lot of positive implications.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Anyone who screams “think of the children” are all closet groomers trying to hide. Until we name and shame all of them, we are in danger – women, LGBT individuals, non-binaries, and other progressive communities who actually give a damn about this planet. We must re-educate those who have lost their way and show them how to be fabulous.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I will, but that’s because, based on the law of large numbers, it’s pretty much inevitable that someone who thinks like this will turn up somewhere.

Now, I don’t think they are anywhere close to common, even among sexual minorities, and there probably are more trolls who act like this than people who genuinely believe it, but I can’t really rule out the possibility.

Regardless, whether calling them out as rightwing trolls or genuine far-left bigots, they deserve to be called out and shamed.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Oh it does they are a minority. But they are very vocal. You see them at gay bars and drag shows all the time. Everyone else is having a great time and they are sitting in the corner angry as hell. One in ten if that but fuck they are vocal online. Twitter and other social media gave these village idiots a place to coalesce into a dangerous critical mass.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

If you genuinely believe what you say and aren’t a rightwing troll, you are evidence that queer bigotry does exist.

If queer bigotry doesn’t exist, that means that you’re a rightwing troll because the words you say, if taken seriously, are examples of queer bigotry.

So, either queer bigotry exists, or you’re just a troll pretending to be a queer bigot. Take your pick. I’m not particularly bothered either way.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Honestly, you’re making me more mad at you than Hyman if anything. If what you really want is for me to stay angry at people like Hyman, the best thing for you to do would be to just STFU already. As it stands, at best, you’re not changing anything, but at worst, you’re distracting people from being mad at the likes of Hyman and instead being mad at you.

Of course, that’s if we take you as meaning what you say rather than just a troll. In that case, the worst-case is less likely, but you’re still not going to get anything better.

Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Woke ideology must be stopped precisely because woke ideologues get so angry at people who point out truths they hate. We know where this leads – it starts with cancel culture and ends in the gulag. People who came to the US escaping communism know this. That’s why Cubans in Florida and Russians in Brooklyn turn their districts red. That’s why the “demographic inevitability” so anticipated by woke ideologues will come to naught.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Lets put this simply, ‘woke’ ideology is to let people live as the want, while your ideology is to force the to live as you want them to live. You are are the one who would create a gulag system, because you cannot bear the idea that the different live in the same society as you. Those you call woke get on with their lives, leaving others to get on with theirs, and only become active when others come under attack.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“Woke ideology must be stopped precisely because woke ideologues get so angry at people who point out truths they hate.”

I think this is a situation where we need a moron to normal person translation.

In the sane world, “woke” means “aware that there are systems in place that negatively affect minority populations even if the individuals working within that system are not themselves prejudiced”. I can’t think of why this would make anyone not angry, unless you’re the kind of bigot who thinks that those people deserve generational attacks.

Like so many positive terms people like you have decided are a negative because they’re aimed at helping people slightly browner or less heteronormative than yourself, I suspect your definition is nonsense, but it’s useful that you out yourself as an ignorant bigot with worthless opinions before you start to properly list your hatred.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

No, the fight shouldn’t be given up. However:

Because the fight can never entirely succeed, people will use both the partial successes and partial failures to support or attack institutions that they like or hate for other reasons. Commenters here on TechDirt hate Musk because he opposes the woke ideological censorship that Twitter used to provide for them, so they use the fact that he has not accomplished the impossible in order to attack him.

People with unrelated agendas will use any excuse they can muster in order to promote their policies. Law enforcement despises encryption because secure and private communications make them work harder to gather evidence. They have been opposing it for decades, and use kiddy porn, terrorism, and the war on drugs to demand that encryption be made illegal.

Similarly, people who want to control the sexual behavior of others use child pornography and trafficking as excuses to try to stop other practices, as TechDirt itself has pointed out with respect to BackPage, or with sugar daddy and adultery sites.

So, once again, evil, no matter how heinous, does not justify every action taken in the name of stopping it. Each such action needs a cost/benefit analysis to see whether it will be effective and whether it might have unintended (or intended!) consequences for legal behavior.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

the fight shouldn’t be given up. However

There’s a promising start~.

he opposes the woke ideological censorship that Twitter used to provide for them

Welcome to Coneria!

they use the fact that he has not accomplished the impossible in order to attack him

Nobody is attacking him for “not accomplish[ing] the impossible”. We’re criticising him for sacking the people who were most involved in tackling the CSAM issue. Automation alone won’t be enough to prevent the CSAM problem from getting worse (despite what Musk and his shit-eating fanboys will tell you). And if the issue ever improves, it won’t be because Musk and Musk alone “did the impossible”.

people who want to control the sexual behavior of others use child pornography and trafficking as excuses to try to stop other practices

You mean like anti-queer right-wingers who use “groomer” accusations to attack queer people of all kinds⁠—accusations that have radicalized people into opposing books with same-sex couples, protesting drag queen shows, or even committing anti-queer violence. Or is that not who you meant to talk about?

evil, no matter how heinous, does not justify every action taken in the name of stopping it

You’re literally opposing the idea of people trying to lower the amount of CSAM traded through Twitter. I don’t have nearly enough time or energy to go through all the things that are wrong with that notion⁠—and what that notion implies about you.

Each such action needs a cost/benefit analysis to see whether it will be effective and whether it might have unintended (or intended!) consequences for legal behavior.

I can’t believe I have to stress this, but again, for the record: WE’RE TALKING ABOUT CHILD PORN.

I’m not trying to say “yeah, sure, let the feds fuck over everyone to stop CSAM traders”. That’d be stupid. But for God’s sake, Hyman, you’re damn near close to saying “yeah, sure, let the CSAM traders keep doing their thing so the feds can’t fuck anyone over”. Again: I don’t have the time or energy to explain to you all the things that are wrong with that stance. Figure it out for yourself.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

“We’re criticising him for sacking the people who were most involved in tackling the CSAM issue.”

Objectively those where the first people who should have been sacked because they were not doing their job. Despite being notified for years about the amount of CSAM on Twitter trust and safety didn’t take action until after the sept 2022 Reuters article.

Your argument is akin to complaining that the mechanical crew at an airline was fired after a series of plane crashes due to mechanical error.

What you don’t get is that the fired people were Mike’s personal friends. You dont get this because you are an easily manipulated simpleton. Mike lives with and works with these people. They are his friends they are his community.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You hate Musk because he does not condone the woke ideological censorship you would like Twitter to keep imposing, and so you find whatever attack vectors you can to put him in a bad light. (Granted that he is making that easy.)

Your use of bold, italicized, all-caps is certainly a compelling argument, but I remain unconvinced that shouting “but, but, kiddy porn!” justifies any and all measures that anyone suggests be taken against it without any further consideration. Perhaps if you also add strike-through and blinking I might change my mind.

Or is that not who you meant to talk about?

Yes, those are the people I meant to talk about. The fact that woke gender ideologues believe one immense false thing, that people can ever be a sex different from their bodies, does not change the fact that by far most attempts to restrict sexual behavior and information have come from conservatives.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You hate Musk because he does not condone the woke ideological censorship you would like Twitter to keep imposing

Welcome to Coneria!

I remain unconvinced that shouting “but, but, kiddy porn!” justifies any and all measures that anyone suggests be taken against it without any further consideration

I explicitly said it doesn’t justify every possible measure to curb CSAM. You’re the one implying that any measure is “too much”. If you didn’t want to sound like you’re on the side of the CSAM traders, you’re doing a piss-poor job of that.

woke gender ideologues believ[ing] one … thing … does not change the fact that by far most attempts to restrict sexual behavior and information have come from conservatives

Yes, and the hilarious thing about you admitting that is that you’re on their side. You’re literally fighting alongside those same censorious assholes when you bitch about “woke gender ideologues” and talk the kind of shit about trans people that will eventually radicalize you into taking more direct (and possibly violent) action against a group of people you’ve identified as a Repugnant Cultural Other. You’re not the kind of person who condemns censorship, Hyman⁠—you’re the kind of person who celebrates when a children’s book with a queer character gets yanked off a library shelf. And you still⁠—still!⁠—haven’t condemned the Club Q shooting without tossing in any queerphobia as a “fuck you”.

You want to act like you’re against censorship, but any time a story about actual censorship shows up on this site, you’re nowhere to be fucking found. You never decry book bans and governors trying to dictate how schools can teach slavery⁠—but you’re all over the idea that a bigot getting kicked off Twitter for being a bigot is The Worst Censorship Ever™. The only thing separating you from the more open, more rabid, and more violent-natured bigots is a thin veneer of “respectability”⁠—as if not saying “I want trans people to kill themselves” is any less bigoted than saying “I want woke gender ideologues to leave society and let us ‘normal’ people live in peace”.

Your coming out against efforts to stem the tide of CSAM trading isn’t really helping your arguments, fam. But I bet it’d get you a VIP ticket to the next CPAC.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Trans people are not a repugnant cultural other. They are factually wrong if they believe they can ever be a sex other than that of their bodies, and they are morally wrong if they attempt to force their way into single- sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them against the wishes of the people already in those spaces, or if they try to have institutions they have captured teach their false beliefs as truth.

Teaching how to get around attempts at censorship is a positive good regardless of what people intend to say in their private communications. If the claim is that there is an epidemic of visible and increasing child pornography on Twitter then there should be ample targets for law enforcement to pursue before they try to stop encrypted communication.

I have been decrying Amazon’s ban on When Harry Became Sally on this site forever. You woke ideologues keep insisting (correctly) that Amazon is within its rights to do that, so accusing me of ignoring censorship is, not unusual for you, the pot calling the kettle black. Public schools and public libraries should be not be censoring either pro or anti LGB+T material. If they do, it is up to the voters to change their government to get that to stop, but meanwhile, because those are government institutions, the government may speak through them as it likes.

It continues to be amusing that you believe that you get to control what other people say and how they say it. The Club Q shooter, upon conviction, should be swiftly executed, or failing that, be imprisoned until death. If they are imprisoned, that prison should be one that holds prisoners of the sex of the shooter’s body, regardless of what sex the shooter claims to be.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Trans people are not a repugnant cultural other.

And yet…

They are factually wrong if they believe they can ever be a sex other than that of their bodies, and they are morally wrong if they attempt to force their way into single-sex spaces for which their bodies disqualify them against the wishes of the people already in those spaces, or if they try to have institutions they have captured teach their false beliefs as truth.

…to you, they are.

I have been decrying Amazon’s ban on When Harry Became Sally on this site forever.

And no one cares because Amazon is not the world’s only bookseller and it isn’t trying to stop anyone from buying the book through any other method. Amazon is a privately owned company that can refuse to carry any product it wants; that includes books meant to spread transphobia. Don’t like it? Shop somewhere else and quit being a bitch about it.

accusing me of ignoring censorship

I don’t have to accuse you of it, Hyman. You prove it every time you ignore stories about actual censorship. After all, I didn’t see you commenting on Nintendo’s abuse of copyright law to suppress an informative YouTube video that clearly fell within Fair Use. If you’re such an avowed enemy of censorship, such stories wouldn’t escape your purview⁠—and yet, when I go look on those stories, I don’t see any comments from you.

You’re ignoring censorship you don’t give a damn about to whine about “censorship” (read: moderation) because you think your bigoted views being unpopular enough to warrant rules against posting them on certain social media services is censorship. Next time a story like the Nintendo/Did You Know Gaming situation pops up, you have a chance to prove me wrong. Take it or be forever a hypocrite.

Public schools and public libraries should be not be censoring either pro or anti LGBT material.

For once, we’re in agreement. (But don’t pull that “+T” bullshit again, you hateful son of a bitch.)

It continues to be amusing that you believe that you get to control what other people say and how they say it.

I don’t. Alls I’m doing is pointing out…

The Club Q shooter, upon conviction, should be swiftly executed, or failing that, be imprisoned until death.

…that you refuse to condemn the Club Q shooting…

If they are imprisoned, that prison should be one that holds prisoners of the sex of the shooter’s body, regardless of what sex the shooter claims to be.

…without also tossing in some queerphobia as a “fuck you”. If you were truly willing to condemn the shooting without qualification, you’d be willing to do it without resorting to any kind of queerphobia. But all you’re doing is reinforcing the same ideas that led to the Club Q shooting in the first place.

I’m willing to condemn violence regardless of the political aisle. If another January 6th were to happen (God forbid), but it was done in support of a Democrat president, I’d be happy to say “this is wrong, this is fucked up, this shouldn’t be happening” no matter what⁠—and without saying “but at least they’re doing it for the right person this time” or any other kind of partisan qualification. For what reason can’t you say “the Club Q shooting was a legitimate tragedy and the shooter should rot in hell” without also expressing queerphobic views?

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Hyman Rosen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Have you condemned the rioting, looting, and arson that occurred in the wake of George Floyd’s killing? Without qualifying that “people are more important than property”? Have you condemned the fact the Black people commit crimes far in excess of their share of the population, without making excuses for them about systemic racism?

Censorship is the act of the censor, silencing speech based on viewpoint on platforms the censor controls.

I tend to write in opposition to false but prevalent views, which is why I get banned so often. I don’t find any amusement in contributing to an echo chamber, so when TechDirt writes something I agree with about an abuse of copyright, I don’t feel any need to chime in. And of course, it continues to be amusing that you believe that you get to control what people say or how they say it, or to have them justify what and where they choose to write.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

https://www.thetrevorproject.org/blog/the-trevor-project-mourns-victims-of-lgbtq-nightclub-shooting-in-colorado-springs/

It’s also interesting that The Trevor Project, for which I have been apparently increasing contributions by calling you woke ideologues what you are, condemns the shooting but not the shooter in its statement, then does the usual woke ideological segue to talking about gun violence.

(It says more about you than about me that you think that I would object to a service that tries to help young people cope with being different from those around them. But of course when woke ideologues condemn hate, they only mean hate directed against them, and never hate that emanates from them or their favored victim groups.)

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Strawb (profile) says:

Re:

It’s also amusing how the commentariat endeavours to hide all of the comments that are either critical of Mike’s supremely bitter, snarky takes or which praise Musk.

Well, maybe if those posts weren’t rage-y, delusional, lacking evidence and generally written by assholes, we wouldn’t endeavour to do that.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I could care less about the “flag” feature. Its not like anyone pays attention to it anyways. 90% of the comments here are to flagged posts. But when Mike writes articles about “bad faith actors” yet allows his own users to abuse a feature that says “flag as abusive/trolling/spam”, and not only abuse it but gleefully admit they are using the feature in bad faith to get people to leave it jus proves that Mike is a complete and total piece of shit.

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Chozen (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I love good Karma. Musk is the biggest threat to Mike ever. Mike is a cancer, a parasite, a leech. As soon as Musk started brining some basic business sense to Twitter, Facebook etc. followed suit. Mike stands to lose everything is BigTech stops throwing away money. He will be sucking dick in a train satiation and the worthless son of a bitch knows it.

I heard a term to describe all these laid off BigTech employees and executives who just months ago felt that they ran the world “Excess Elites”, I like it.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I hope he was heavily leveraged in crypto

Leveraged? If Masnick was that heavily leveraged in crypto, I highly doubt that he’d be letting articles like “Chia Cryptocurrency, Started By BitTorrent Creator Bram Cohen, Engaging In Obnoxiously Bogus Trademark Bullying” and “Why A Blockchain-based DRM Has Always Been A Terrible Idea” on his website. At best Masnick seems neutral to crypto, but if you’re hoping for him to piss himself like many people overdosed on copium after the NFT crash of 2022, you’re probably going to be disappointed.

Musk is the biggest threat to Mike ever.

In what way? If anything, Musk has been providing plenty of material for Masnick to talk about. Musk could fire another round of essential people tomorrow and every day of the coming weeks and Masnick will write about it. That’s… not even remotely a threat.

Mike stands to lose everything is BigTech stops throwing away money.

Considering Masnick doesn’t work for this vague anomalous entity “BigTech” I highly doubt this scenario is going to pan out according to your twisted fantasies. The same claims were made several decades ago based on everything from the Pirate Bay trial to the introduction of FOSTA, and… well, your team doesn’t have the best track record.

He will be sucking dick in a train satiation and the worthless son of a bitch knows it.

The bastion of love and tolerance and inclusivity.

I heard a term to describe all these laid off BigTech employees and executives

It’s pretty funny that you think it’s the executive level that gets targeted in these mass layoffs and has the most to lose.

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Christenson says:

High Stress should not be full time

Just noting here that sweatshopping a high stress job like Trust and Safety screening (or air traffic control) is not a formula for success or gaining long-term experience.

People in such jobs should really be doing the stressful part part time and something much less stressful to fill out the need for full time work… like asking the question — so I have this illegal or dangerous stuff offered by H, how do we minimize overall harm? How do we automate what we know?… or having time to just look around to get an idea of community health works, too.

I also think Twitter could have done more to get the community involved in moderating…for example asking people to rate a little bit of reported material, or figuring out who is brigading someone.

It is, like fighting a war, complicated, just like Techdirt has said before, so answers won’t be simple. Elon is still speed-running the moderation curve; the question is how and when the platform will escape his control. Technical problems? Bankruptcy? Margin calls? Injunctions? Who knows?

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