4th Circuit Says Using Drones To Photograph Property Isn’t Protected By The 1st Amendment
from the drone-rights dept
The ultimate lesson here is one that’s been taught over and over again by the government of a free nation: if you attempt to bypass government revenue generation mechanisms, expect to get put in your place, citizen.
Back in 2021, North Carolina resident Michael Jones — with the assistance of the Institute for Justice — sued the state for preventing him from operating his business. Jones is a drone operator and photographer. The service he offers is the photography of a property owner’s land. The drone photography is then processed by Jones to offer a basic overhead map of the property. And it’s not as though it’s mistakable for the work product of licensed surveyors who have access to better tools. According to the court decision, this “processing” was little more than stitching shots together with Photoshop and hand-drawing rudimentary “property lines.”
The state says Jones can’t do this — not without a surveyor’s license. Acquiring a surveyor’s license means shelling out money to get certified. This is clearly ridiculous since Jones’ business only conveys facts about the land being photographed, something that could be ascertained by anyone with access to the same tools.
But because the North Carolina Board of Examiners isn’t collecting fees from Jones, it has declared his actions illegal. And it has said this despite Jones making it clear to customers he is not offering surveying services and instructing them that any information he produces for them cannot be used for legal purposes, including the establishment of property lines.
If landowners want legally useful info, they’ll still have to approach government-licensed surveyors, even though a lot of this information (elevation, geographical coordinates) can be obtained simply by using free services like Google Maps.
Unfortunately, trying to prove that drone photography of people’s property is protected speech, rather than something strictly controlled by state regulators hasn’t worked out for Jones. He lost at the district court level. And, as the Institute for Justice reports, the Fourth Circuit Appeals Court has reached a similar conclusion.
Yesterday, a three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that North Carolina may ban the creation of aerial maps by everyone except licensed land surveyors. The ruling strips away the First Amendment rights of Michael Jones, a Goldsboro, North Carolina, drone operator—along with many other innovative entrepreneurs in the state. Michael, along with the Institute for Justice (IJ), will seek further appellate review of the court’s decision with the goal of restoring Michael’s right to communicate with clients without government interference.
The decision [PDF] explains its reasoning, but you’re not going to learn too much from its rationalization of a state’s bizarre claim that it’s entitled to regulate certain forms of aerial photography — even if the aerial photographs were obtained with the explicit consent of the owners of the land being photographed.
The ruling at least takes the time to explain that obtaining a surveyor’s license is a “rigorous process” with multiple steps and several (apparently arbitrary) requirements, including the demand that people in this business possess at least a bachelor’s degree in surveying or, failing that, nine years of practical experience.
While I can understand the government might want to deter non-experts from sending a drone skyward and pretending they’re in the surveying business, at no time did Jones ever claim to be licensed surveyor and made it explicitly clear to his customers that his offerings were not the legal equivalent of those produced by those with a government-issued surveying license.
But that wasn’t enough for the state and its regulation board. So, it has fought Jones’ lawsuit, presumably because doing otherwise might mean missing out on some of this presumable trickle of income from surveyor licensing.
Jones’ lawsuit emphasized the First Amendment right to gather and present information — something that covers everything from journalists seeking information from sources to people publishing photographs of Barbra Streisand’s house. Unfortunately, two courts in a row — now including one capable of setting circuit precedent — have said otherwise. The state’s insistence that unlicensed surveying might cause problems at some point is all that’s needed to declare Jones’ I-have-literally-told-everyone-I-am-not-a-surveyor non-surveying business more illegal than constitutionally protected.
According to the Fourth Circuit, drone photography of property (which may or may not later be modified into something approaching a licensed surveyor might produce) isn’t subject to the rigorous examination required of statutes that affect stuff most people would assume to be protected by the Constitution. Instead, it’s the other thing.
Because the Act is a regulation of professional conduct that only incidentally impacts speech, our precedent requires that we apply a more relaxed form of intermediate scrutiny that mandates only that the restriction be “sufficiently drawn” to protect a substantial state interest.
Oh, OK. So if the court says it’s conduct and not speech, screw all the speech stuff, I guess. Then it compares it to previous precedent that doesn’t seem all that applicable (like the unlicensed practice of law or medicine) to arrive at the conclusion that favors the government and its desire to ensure it can extract licensing fees from people who explicitly warn potential customers that they are not in the business the government is trying to regulate.
[T]he Act in this case protects the professional integrity of surveyors: a surveying license is not easy to obtain, and there is a public interest in ensuring there is an incentive for individuals to go through that rigorous process and become trained as surveyors. Further, the Act protects consumers from potentially harmful economic and legal consequences that could flow from mistaken land measurements. Tellingly, when asked how a client would be “protected” in the absence of the Act “against somebody who really doesn’t know what they are doing but is [offering] the client services in the field of photogrammetry,” Plaintiffs’ expert responded, “That’s up to the client”—meaning, he agreed, “buyer beware.” We agree with the Board that the First Amendment doesn’t require the State to accept this caveat-emptor view of regulating surveying.
I understand the rationale a bit, at least the part about protecting the public from people who don’t have the expertise in the subject presenting themselves as experts. But that would only make sense if that’s what Jones had done. He didn’t. And the court’s spinning Jones’ warning to customers that he (1) wasn’t licensed as a surveyor, and (2) anything he produced had no legal weight into something equivalent to “buyer beware” is a bit disingenuous. The buyer has been warned, but it is on the buyer if they choose to use Jones’ photographs and maps to do things they’ve been told they can’t be used for.
This leaves Jones in a pretty unenviable position. The business he performs can no longer operate in the state he resides without him being fined or sued by the state government. He can appeal this (and the IJ plans to keep fighting this) to the Supreme Court, but getting a case picked up by that court means appealing to the sensibilities of certain judges with ideological axes to grind. This case doesn’t have that sort of hook. For now, drone photography (and subsequent conversions to maps) by non-licensed North Carolina residents remains illegal, rather than what it should be: protected expression that just happens to be something people might want to pay money for.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, 4th circuit, aerial maps, drone operator, drones, law enforcement, michael jones, north carolina


Comments on “4th Circuit Says Using Drones To Photograph Property Isn’t Protected By The 1st Amendment”
Well it’s the north Carolina government. The members are probably too busy raping kids on corporate brides to care about the law or constitution.
Re:
It’s federal appointees presiding on this case. It’s going to be federal appointees of some mix anytime you see a number 1-12 followed by the word “circuit.” States will also have judicial circuits, but when it’s stated without specifying, it’s typically referring to federal.
In this case, there’s Agee (Dubya/Virginia,) Wynn (Bill Clinton/Obama/North Carolina,) and Thacker (Obama/West Virginia.)
Surveying isn’t just flying a drone, using some software, and drawing some lines. It’s a significantly more complicated process than that, and thanks to developments in technology combined with poor historic record keeping, there’s a lot of potential areas for error by those that are ignorant of these facts. This has been well established, and saying “but with Drones” isn’t going to change the case law.
When he started drawing “rudimentary property lines” he was clearly breaking the law in every state I’m aware of.
This is just….dumb. Every year there are dozens of actions against people acting as surveyors in just about every state, and the vast majority of them are based on complaints from the public. Surveying is critical to making sure that the public is protected from bad actors. But it’s not something that can be done in isolation, it requires that everyone play along with the same rules to the same standards.
Re:
Any chance you could list those for posterity?
Re: Re:
Idaho
Washington
Alaska
Nevada
Montana
Texas
California
Wyoming
Are the one’s that I’m aware of.
Re: Re: Re: So in other words...
Most real estate websites are breaking the law when they sell vacant land? Many such listing draw “rudimentary property lines” to illustrate the rough size and location of the property.
For example: https://www.zillow.com/tx/land/
Or more relevant to the original story: https://www.zillow.com/nc/land/
Re: Re: Re:2
I still haven’t found an answer to that, but I surprise it’s because they use the GIS data provided by the city/state/county that manages platt descriptions and boundaries.
Re: Re: Re:
Sorry, Mamba, but you just stepped in my personal doodoo. Washington State clearly allows areal photography for the purpose of depicting land boundaries so long as they are not claimed to be developed and published by a professional surveyor.
When I sold my home in Woodinville, WA 10 years ago, the real estate agent hired a drone operator to do exactly the same thing as Jones was doing, including drawing in crude property lines. The photos published on the NWMLS contained a disclaimer that the lines were meant to be nominal, and were not confirmed by any survey. Nobody complained, and the person I sold it to was happy to have me walk the actual property boundaries with him just before he signed on the dotted line.
Strike one state from your list.
Re: Re: Re:2
Despite what the article says so does North Carolina in certain circumstances.
From the actual ruling: “At the same time, the Act limits its scope to activities that fall within the traditional
practice of surveying. So, for example, Plaintiffs may still engage in the activities that fall
within their area of experience and expertise—namely, taking aerial photos—and can even
draw rough property lines in certain circumstances. See J.A. 489–90, 547. They only may
not provide the sort of measurable data that falls within the realm of the profession of
surveying.”
This guy first got in trouble because “On his
website, Jones explicitly advertised that he could create orthomosaic maps and noted that
they could be used, for example, by ‘construction companies [to] monitor the elevation
changes, volumetrics for gravel/dirt/rock, and watch the changes and progression of the
site as it forms over time.’ J.A. 201. His website also stated that his company ‘cater[ed] to
many industries such as solar, roofing, construction, marketing and advertising,
commercial & residential real estate, search and rescue, agriculture, thermal inspection,
Orthomosaic maps, ground footage, and more.'”
Re: Re: Re:3
Thanks, Nony, that was informative. I didn’t know that N.C. also set some limits on the scope of the legislation, that sound much like the Washington States limits.
I would’ve bet the farm that the real estate industry wasn’t going to let the “surveyor’s union” (the state regulators) get away with requiring very high-priced surveyors just for a few photos or a short video, all in order to enhance a real estate listing.
Re: Re: Re:2
As pointed out, he also provided dimensioning that wasn’t allowed. If he would have done relative dimensioning with no borders he probably would have been fine. But he drew the property boundary and that’s when he went sideways.
Re: Re:
I’ll go further and say I’m pretty sure all 50 states require it, but I’m not going to go look up all 50 states individually to make sure someone (I’m looking at you, Louisiana) doesn’t do something different than anyone else.
Re: Re: Re:
I assume Louisianans just plant sticks in the swamp and grunt at each other until they reach equilibrium when a property dispute arises.
Re: Re: Re:2
Might as well, they use French Civil Law, which is comes from the Napoleonic Code.
Re: Re: Re:3
From the outside, it really just seems to be a shortcut for perpetuating an antebellum plantation state. Probably a bit older than that even. Like the sort of thing the French might have stomped out in the early-to-mid 1790s.
Re: Re: Re:4
I assumed they used the hoods for that.
Re:
If you could prove Jones was telling people he was a licensed surveyor when offering his services instead of telling people “he [was] not offering surveying services and instructing them that any information he produces for them cannot be used for legal purposes”, that might actually matter. But the whole point of this lawsuit is that Jones told people “I’m not a surveyor and my work isn’t meant to be legal evidence” and the state government decided that still wasn’t good enough. Your comment is ultimately an attempt to excuse away an act of government overreach…
…because the whole point of the lawsuit is that he wasn’t actually trying to redraw actual property lines or have his work submitted as evidence in any legal proceeding about property lines. You want to make Jones out to be some lawbreaking piece of shit when he did just about everything I could think of to say “this isn’t the work of an actual licensed surveyor, so don’t use this in court” to his clients—and neither you nor the state government seem to have any proof to the contrary.
Re: Re:
Negative Ghost Rider. That would be a different, but related, infraction. Putting boundaries on a drawing creates a survey by definition, and those are a controlled product.
He most certainly did sell it to the public though, and I think you’d agree that there are just certain things you cant disclaim away.
I’m not saying he’s a piece of shit. I’m saying he clearly broke the law, likely with ignorance. But what I’m also saying is that anyone who things this is different than the last 200 years of case law (George Washington was the first US Land Surveyor) because it includes drones is wildly out of touch.
Re: Re: Re:
And if he were doing that to submit his work in a legal proceeding, that might be meaningful to point out here. But his work was, by his own admission, never meant to be considered a replacement for the work of professional surveyor. If I take a picture of the front of my house and I draw a crude line on the photo that approximates where the property line is, should I be fined by the NC state government for trying to pass myself off as a licensed surveyor?
Did he sell his services under the false pretense that he was a licensed surveyor and his work would absolutely be admissible in a court of law as the work of a licensed surveyor? Because what I’ve read says that he actively told people otherwise so they wouldn’t hire him under that false pretense. If you have evidence to the contrary, now would be the time to present it.
You’re all but claiming—without evidence!—that he intended to pass off his work under the false pretenses I mentioned above. The evidence says he did no such thing. For what reason should the state punish him if he actively tried to avoid passing off his work as the work of a licensed surveyor?
My hypothetical question about taking a photo of my property never mentioned the exact method of taking a photo. If you think I should be punished like Jones has been because I took a photo with an analog camera or a phone camera, printed out the photo, and drew a couple of crude lines on it, feel free to say so. But don’t insult me by acting like I’m in favor of Jones in this situation “because drones”. You should know better. You do know better.
Re: Re: Re:2
You keep saying that, as if it’s important. It is not.
Regardless of his disclaimer, he sold a drawing with boundaries and dimensions, which are defined by law to be a surveys. You can call it whatever you want, but it changes nothing. And surveys for hire, by law, must be performed by a RPLS.
Again, this does not matter. Whether a survey is used in a court of law is not relevant. Misrepresenting yourself as a surveyor is a different problem.
I’m not. You just really misunderstand the law and are therefore reading into this way more than you should. Aso, stop putting words in my mouth.
This is a trite example. But, you doing it for yourself is different, it not being a topographical view is different, you not selling it is different.
So no, I think you’re safe.
But states have betting stopping people from drawing property lines on maps for decades and selling them
Jesus christ. The original article, the linked article, and the quotes, make a big deal about the drone aspect. Once you remove those….there’s no way this was going to go any other way give the facts.
Re: Re: Re:3
And if he had been pretending that his work was the work of an actual surveyor (and therefore legally admissible as such in a court of law), that bit might mean to me what you want it to mean.
Did any of Jones’s clients hire him under the pretense that he was a licensed surveyor?
Ib id.
You have implied that because Jones drew lines on a bunch of photos he took of other people’s property, he intended to pass off his work as that of a licensed surveyor. The evidence show that he actively avoided doing that to the point of informing his clients that he wasn’t a surveyor and his work shouldn’t be taken that way. If he went out of his way to avoid portraying himself as a surveyor, for what reason should the state punish him as if he was lying about being a surveyor?
I never said I didn’t sell the photo—for all you know, I sold the photo to a friend. (The reason why is immaterial.) If I take a picture of the front of my home with an analog camera, personally develop the film and make a print of the photo, draw a line or two on the photo where I think the land boundaries are, and sell that photo to anyone for any reason after telling them as clearly as I can that I am not a licensed surveyor, why shouldn’t I be punished the same as Jones has been punished?
The regulation of drone photography is still unsettled in several ways. The drone aspect is important because the state seems to be punishing Jones “because drones”—perhaps because his business was largely predicated on drone photography and the state wouldn’t have cared as much if it wasn’t. And again, even if drones weren’t involved, the fact that Jones never passed himself off as a licensed surveyor should still be the most important part of this whole story. I mean, go back to my hypothetical about taking a photo of my home: Does my drawing a couple of crude lines on a photo and telling someone “this is about where I think the land boundaries are” actually count as me saying “I am a licensed surveyor and I am making a formal legal declaration as to where these land boundaries lie”? And if the answer is no: For what reason shouldn’t the same idea hold for Jones, other than “because drones” or “he sold his pictures”?
Re: Re: Re:4
If you’re going to ignore what the law says, what the ruling says, the history of case law, the enforcement actions of states, and what I actually said, we really can’t have and adult discussion.
Re: Re: Re:5
Does the law say taking pictures with drones and drawing lines for people for their own use that isn’t used as a survey is specifically illegal?
This case just reads like a racket. Drawing lines on pictures and selling them with no intents and purposes to be anything like a real survey is literally all this is.
The government doesn’t seem to have explained anything beyond “nah we don’t want to because gathering info and taking pictures for people’s personal use is no longer speech”
Re: Re: Re:6
Yes. The law says that drawing boundaries of property on a plan/map/drawing/phot and selling it is illegal.
Re: Re: Re:7
Then the law is an ass and should be overturned.
Re: Re: Re:5
Well whenever you’re ready to begin discussing things in an adult (honest) manner, maybe Stephen will be there waiting.
Re: Re: Re:6
Remember, two courts have rules in exactly in the way I’m describing.
Re: Re: Re:5 ignorance of the law, &c.
Right. The law says that a survey must have a surveyor’s seal.
So if the drone guy had affixed a surveyor’s seal to his work, making it a survey, the state might have a claim. As it stands, without a surveyor’s seal, it is not a survey.
If it is not a survey, the state ought to go away and quit annoying him.
Re: Re: Re:6
It’s a survey, with or without the seal.
Re: Re: Re:7
No, it’s a photograph with or without the seal, it’s only the seal that makes it a survey under the law.
Re: Re: Re:8
If that were true, this and hundreds or thousands of other cases would have gone differently.
Re: Re: Re:9
Said the guy charged with murdering his very much alive father to no one ever.
Re: Re: Re:4
It’s not “because drones,” it’s “because lines.” The ruling even states that if all he did was sell aerial photographs, it wouldn’t be an issue.
They aren’t saying he’s lying about being a surveyor. They’re saying “What you are doing here qualifies as ‘surveying’ under the law. You aren’t a surveyor, so you can’t do it. If you do, you’re surveying without a license. Disclosing in advance that you don’t have a license doesn’t change that.”
“he sold his pictures” is the issue though. The law that requires a license for surveying seems to apply to “professional services.”
It appears that, under NC law, if you take pictures of land, draw “rudimentary property lines” on them, and hang them on your wall, who cares. However, if you take pictures of land, draw “rudimentary property lines” on them, and sell them, that requires a license.
Re: Re: Re:
i see. Both you and some governments don’t know the definittion of “survey”.
People have been doing this since planes were a thing. People have been making maps and map overlays for satellite images without surveying anything, and those involve state and national boundaries.
This is all just stupid.
Re: Re: Re:2
Lol. Every State and the Supreme Court has it wrong, it’s you that’s right!
Boundaries of states, counties and countries are exempt from this…for reasons.
Re: Re: Re:3
Almost as though this is just a made-up distinction.
Re: more than drawing a line
Right you are. The essence of what he was doing was taking pictures. If he draws some lines on them, so long as he is not holding them out as surveyed property boundaries, is artistic expression.
Same result if I took his pictures and drew arrows pointing the oak trees on the property, so long as I do not hold them out as usable for cadastral purposes. Were I to hold them out, I would likely be violating the surveying laws, and would certainly be engaging in misleading business practices.
Federal circuits appear to be going downhill.
Re: Re:
Drawing the boundaries was all it took. Dimension thingies within your property would have been fine, i.e
Distance from tree to house, etc, generally does t run afoul any law(though some states do want that to be Surveyed….but I suspect it wouldn’t survive a challenge). It’s that pesty border.
Re: Re:
I’ll be damned, I learned something new today, a new word – cadastral. Thanks, Tanner, always good to know that my command of the language can be improved, even if I can’t use it in everyday conversations. 😉
Re:
Really? Because the words “on a computer” has…
A Clinton/Obama judge, a Dubya judge, and an Obama judge walk into a courtroom.
When they came out, I had to get a really tall ladder to take a picture of my back yard.
Re:
Mamba’s explanation is rational. I still have time to cancel the ladder.
Thanks everyone!
I’m uncomfortable calling judges “stupid,” but that’s about the only word that accurately describes their decision. Perhaps his business can remain operational if he limits his activities to aerial photography and then provides, indirectly, instructions for overlaying Google Earth on the image. (The tricky task is ortho-rectifying the Google image, but even without that, the overlay is “close enough.”)
The third option
This was a 3 judge panel of the appeals court. He could still ask for an en banc hearing. Perhaps more likely to happen than the supreme court picking it up.
And yet what do you want to bet that those same judges would turn around and claim that police drones and the pictures they take of private property are no different than what any random citizen could take and therefore there’s no need for any of that silly ‘warrant’ business…
Lets see them apply this to government employees....
I am a Civil Engineer Licensed in multiple states (and this is in no way Engineering Services or an offer to perform Engineering Services).
I have to deal with survey and/or aerial footage obtained by drone, satellite, and/or by hand pretty much every work day. So I feel at least semi-qualified to say this is a ridiculous ruling because US municipal/county government entities do this all the time. It took me about 3 minutes to find an example from NC, a lot less time then just typing out the steps I took which were;
1) I search for NC counties in my search engine of choice. Looking at a NC county map I see one is called Craven County which feels very appropriate.
2) I go back and search for Craven County NC GIS (geographic information services) and get directed to gis.cravencountync.gov. Yay, I don’t have to see if it is being done by state or municipal level governments instead and can stay with the Craven part of NC.
3) I go to that site and get visually assaulted by the mid 90’s geocities quality of it.
4) After recovering, I try to navigate the site and find that iMaps won’t let you select an aerial background, but mMaps will so I end up there.
4) Hey look a clickwrap disclaimer disclaiming legal liability….
5) In the upper left I select the 2×2 grid of 4 squares option for basemaps and select the 2021 aerial imagery as the most recent
6) now that I am looking at property lines projected on aerial photography, I zoom in and explore and find dozens of instances of improper property boundaries such as what is going on with 1613 Rhem Ave New Bern, NC aka Parcel 8 024 13000. According to a government provided aerial photo with projected property lines on it, they have 2 outbuildings out back, one of which is on 3 different properties while the other is on 2…
So a NC government is showing an aerial photo with projected property lines that was not created by a licensed surveyor with just a disclaimer. If this was something prepared by a surveyor as actual surveying work it would need to include a record of the surveyor who did the work, and also the lot dimensions do not go to the 1/100th of a foot which would be required.
This is typically publicly available information for all properties in at least the US and I have yet to find one that has any indication that a licensed surveyor had anything to do with its creation.
Re:
That’s a parcel map, which shows boundaries for tax purposes and it’s clearly different than a survey…..because they have decided it is. Which is a pretty slick move, but you and I both know that government agencies are pretty good at exempting themselves.
Also, I was always told GIS stands for Get it Surveyed…
Re: Re:
GIS has always meant Geographical Information System when it touches on maps, land/geographical features and surveying, and how that data is stored, analyzed and visualized.
There are other disambiguation’s of the acronym, like Global Information System or Gas-Insulated Switchgear (think electrical substations).
Someone using GIS as an acronym for Get It Surveyed is most likely due to a misconception what it actually means when mentioned together with surveying.
Re: Re: Re:
Have you considered that was a joke?
Re: Re: Re:2
Have you considered that there is no indication that a stated belief that seems plausible to a reader is actually a joke without added context like a smiley.
Re: Re: Re:3
It wasn’t necessary to be seen as humour
Re: Re:
1) I think this comment really hit the nail on the head much better than that mess of the earlier comment chain. We keep expecting them to apply the definitions broadly and consistently, but really it boils down to agency fiat calling this survey so therefore the courts agree that it is. Feels a lot like the rubber stamp agreement courts usually have with qualified immunity both in action and how it makes me feel about our courts/public bodies.
2) Oddly enough after over 10 years in the field I have never heard of that joking definition of GIS, but man is it ever accurate. One of the primary reasons I use sites like that is to create figures to send to a surveying firm to request a quote for actual survey.
Re: Re: Re:
There are city administrations that literally direct homeowners to break the law by hand drawing site plans for the house and submitting them for construction. Like, that’s a fucking no-no. I legit thought someone was bullshiting me when I first heard it.
Right here in town the city just required a developer to create a flood management district as part of their approval. But, state law doesn’t allow that to happen (it requires a county vote) and the county doesn’t want it at all as the only other flood control district in the area is now non responsive. It’s a fucking mess and getting worse it seems. I’m glad to be in R&D.
Has the state fined Google, Microsoft or Apple?
They do something similar though mainly with satellite data. Is the distinction the elevation at which the imaging sensor is flown, charging for the use of the imagery or the fact that a little guy can’t afford to spend as much on lawyers?
Re:
I’ve actually been looking for an answer to this, but I haven’t found much more than speculation. I think part of the answer is that these are generally based on city/state/county parcel maps and therefore aren’t considered surveys. Others figure it’s just because nobody wants to deal with suing them.
Re: Re: how I would do it, too
Not being a surveyor, I would probably draw lines based on the county parcel maps if I wanted to illustrate where I think a parcel of land is, and where I think the new vegetable patch should go. I expect that the drone buy would do the same.
If it were legally important I would probably hire a guy to draw a map and put a surveyor seal on it. The difference is that his work product is a ``survey” where the drone guy’s product is a ``picture”.
Re: Re:
Most of those parcel/plat maps are surveyed when they’re drawn. They aren’t used as legal property boundary maps, but they’re still drawn based on a survey of the land to make sure the lines are drawn where they’re supposed to be drawn. And often the legal property boundaries are defined by reference to those maps. But not all maps show legal property boundaries, and even ones that do don’t need to be done by a surveyor. One of the things we covered in the surveyor courses was working out the legal property boundaries based on hand-drawn maps from as far back as the 1700s with descriptions of the boundary markers. No latitude and longitude, no accurate bearings and distances, just descriptions and rough locations of local landmarks (eg. a distinctively-shaped boulder or tree) and distances and directions. That causes no end of disputes, because what the person writing up the deed considered “200 yards due north from the westernmost tree in the northernmost row of the orchard” may be very different from what the survey instruments yield when I locate that tree and shoot a line due north and measure out 200 yards. That’s when things get complicated, because the surveyor has to reconcile those results with the other boundary points stated in the deed which leads to questions like “Has the orchard been cleared and re-planted since the deed was written?” and “Did that boulder slide downhill in the 3 centuries since the original map was drawn, and if so how far?”. Which is why you need a licensed surveyor to verify the property lines as described in the deed if you need the legal boundaries.
But if you just want a rough map of the property lines and there’s no legal dispute over the matter? That doesn’t require a licensed surveyor to do any more than those property lines on Zillow needed a licensed surveyor to sign off on.
Of course, a lot of local governments will push the boundaries of what the law says is required, usually because of some local grudge or a revenue opportunity. Then the outcome depends heavily on how good the defendant’s lawyer is and whether or not they put the right experts on the stand to address the question of whether the map meets the legal criteria for needing to be done by a licensed surveyor (the trick is to get one whose job is to make legally-binding rulings on that subject).
Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, I realize those parcel maps start with something, and I assumed its from someone’s efforts with a digitizer and Cad sometime in the 90s, based on the hand drawn developer submittals. Or maybe just training satellite photos.
I’ve laid eyes on some of those old platt descriptions. “2000 wagon wheel turns due west of kackalacky”. How big of a wheel? How many times did it slip? What degree of west. Glad it’s not me.
Ive also watch an escalator sink because we (a utility ) was exempt from this survey laws, and had set our own benchmarks back at the turn of the century. And
Re: Re: Re:2
…the federal benchmarks have changed over the years, especially in elevation, as technologies have gotten better. So the heat that of this cofferdam.wasnt 6″ maximum high water as required….it as some 10″ below. Spring runoff came….and bye-bye escavator.
And people will respond
Drones and be downed by any number of ways. It flies over my property, I better know why, if I don’t it’s coming down. Its owner can have the pieces back after some modding. Eff the law, eff around and find out.
Re:
Seems like a good way to obtain free room ‘n board,
behind bars.
Re:
Hey, I know, let’s escalate the issue because guns, hurr hurr…
How about that drone owner responds, “You shoot at my property, I shoot you. Eff the law, eff around and find out.” What now, tough guy?
On the more serious side, you lost me at “Eff the law.” The fabric of society begins to unravel as more people start to believe that the law does not apply to them.
How is it that, I know for fact, that these are Republicans, without exploring what party they vote for.
Re:
The judges were majority Dem appointed, but feel free to continue to remind me how much a slave to partisan politics you are.
If some state laws actually say that taking a photo and drawing boundaries on it is some magical item called a “Survey” then that law needs to be removed.
It is ridiculous that this would be illegal.
Re:
All states.
Re: Re:
Then all states are stupid.
Riiiight
We all know you’re familiar with some of the 50 states that make up the US.
You made a claim he was breaking “a law”, so which law specifically?
Re:
In this case it is http://www.ncleg.net/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/bychapter/chapter_89c.html
specifically § 89C-23 since this is practice of land surveying per the definitions established in § 89C-3 sub section 7. It appears to be a Class 2 misdemeanor.
As much as I disagree with the application of the law in this case, Mamba is correct that it is against the law.
I’m reminded of another IJ case:
https://ij.org/press-release/oregon-engineer-wins-traffic-light-timing-lawsuit/
where an engineer was told he wasn’t an engineer, and the Federal court had to step in say, “Oh yeah?”. This case is probably where the IJ got the idea of 1A being the dominant cause to overrule State regulatory agencies when they go too far. As we see now, that’s not always the best option, and I personally think that IJ should’ve taken a different tack.
The logic of the ruling brings an odd question.
What if the boundary isn’t drawn but still readily apparent in the photo (i.e. fences, privacy tree lines, or mismatched lines from mowing).
Re:
I wouldn’t classify your question as odd, more on point.