Bipartisan Bill To Repeal Section 230 Defended In Facts-Optional Op-Ed
from the it-can-always-get-dumber dept
Section 230, the legal backbone of the internet, is under attack again. This time, it is from a bipartisan pair of legislators who seem to fundamentally misunderstand how the law works and what the consequences of repealing it would be.
We’ve talked about plenty of attempts to reform Section 230, and why all of them would be problematic. But, now we have a bipartisan attempt to repeal it outright. Republican Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Democrat Frank Pallone, who are the top Republican and Democrat on the House Energy & Commerce Committee, have announced a draft bill to “sunset” Section 230.
It’s perhaps no surprise that Rodgers and Pallone don’t understand Section 230. The one hearing they held on the matter was packed only with witnesses who hate Section 230, and included multiple witnesses who flat out had no clue what they were talking about, to an embarrassing degree.
When you are only informed by ignorance, the policy proposals you come out with are going to be ignorant.
The bill does nothing more than say that Section 230 no longer exists after December 31, 2025.
Section 230 of the Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S.C. 230) is amended by adding at the end the following:
‘‘(g) SUNSET.—This section shall have no force or effect after December 31, 2025.’’.
Along with the draft of the bill, the pair published a facts-optional op-ed in the Wall Street Journal in support of it. But, if you don’t have a way around the paywall, they also published the full piece on the House Energy & Commerce Committee website as a “press release” (who knew the WSJ was willing to just rerun press releases?)
Let’s break down everything it gets wrong. Buckle up, it may take some time.
The internet’s original promise was to help people and businesses connect, innovate and share information. Congress passed the Communications Decency Act in 1996 to realize those goals. It was an overwhelming success. Section 230 of the act helped shepherd the internet from the “you’ve got mail” era into today’s global nexus of communication and commerce.
First off, no, this is wrong. The “Communications Decency Act” was passed in 1996 in the midst of a ridiculous moral panic about “the children online” in response to incendiary media reports that turned out to have been mostly fabricated. The whole point of the Communications Decency Act was not to “help businesses connect, innovate, and share information. It was to allow gullible politicians to grandstand about how they were “protecting the children online.”
Of course, the whole thing turned out to be nonsense, and nearly all of the Communications Decency Act was tossed out as unconstitutional.
What is now known as Section 230, written by then Reps. Chris Cox and Ron Wyden, was designed to be an alternative, better approach in response to the nonsense moral panic and to overturn the dangerous decision in Stratton Oakmon v. Prodigy, which said that Prodigy’s attempt to moderate its forums to make them family friendly meant that it could be held liable for anything it didn’t take down. It only got tacked on to the larger CDA later on.
Cox and Wyden, unlike Rodgers and Pallone, were smart enough to recognize that if you wanted to keep any parts of the internet “family friendly,” you had to make sure that sites would not be liable. Otherwise, why would companies risk hosting any content at all?
Further, unlike Rodgers and Pallone, Cox and Wyden understood the First Amendment well enough to know that distributor liability would only come with actual knowledge, and thus, if any site did decide it was worth the hassle to host third-party content, they would almost certainly do so with explicit plans to never bother to look at the content and never moderate, because without knowledge and by not moderating, they’d have the lack of knowledge protect them from any liability.
The end result is a disaster: fewer sites willing to host content, and the few that do not willing to do any moderation at all for fear of liability. Certainly nothing family friendly, as that would risk absolutely ruinous litigation.
This wasn’t meant to just be there for the beginning of the internet. It was meant for the long haul. I realize it’s on the other side of the Capitol, but Rodgers and Pallone could make the trek over to Wyden’s office to ask him (they have those nice underground trains for members in the Capitol which makes it speedy).
Or just read what Cox and Wyden filed a few years ago to debunk some of the myths about Section 230, like the idea it was only meant for the early years:
Section 230, originally named the Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act, H.R. 1978, was designed to address the obviously growing problem of individual web portals being overwhelmed with user-created content. This is not a problem the internet will ever grow out of; as internet usage and content creation continue to grow, the problem grows ever bigger. Far from wishing to offer protection to an infant industry, our legislative aim was to recognize the sheer implausibility of requiring each website to monitor all of the user-created content that crossed its portal each day.
Critics of Section 230 point out the significant differences between the internet of 1996 and today. Those differences, however, are not unanticipated. When we wrote the law, we believed the internet of the future was going to be a very vibrant and extraordinary opportunity for people to become educated about innumerable subjects, from health care to technological innovation to their own fields of employment. So we began with these two propositions: let’s make sure that every internet user has the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights; and let’s deal with the slime and horrible material on the internet by giving both websites and their users the tools and the legal protection necessary to take it down.
There’s more, but it really seems like Rodgers and Pallone should have maybe understood that before insisting the intent was the opposite.
Anyway, back to this nonsense “press release”/WSJ op-ed:
Unfortunately, Section 230 is now poisoning the healthy online ecosystem it once fostered. Big Tech companies are exploiting the law to shield them from any responsibility or accountability as their platforms inflict immense harm on Americans, especially children. Congress’s failure to revisit this law is irresponsible and untenable. That is why we’re taking bipartisan action.
This is the same kind of nonsense that went into the original Rimm Report that inspired Senator James Exon to push the unconstitutional CDA in the first place.
Anyone who believes that “big tech” is “exploiting” Section 230 “to shield them from any responsibility or accountability as their platforms inflict immense harm on Americans, especially children” is either not paying attention or is lying. I’m not sure which is worse.
Every “big tech” platform has a large team of people who work on trust & safety, trying to keep platforms safe for everyone. Most have efforts dedicated specifically to protecting children online.
I know that there are media reports claiming that the tech companies don’t care, but that’s silly. If you talk to people at these companies who work in these roles, and look at all of the tools and features they roll out, you would know that’s not true.
And Section 230 doesn’t “shield” them from any kind of responsibility or accountability. Indeed, any time anything bad happens to a child, loosely connected to their online presence, there are tons of media stories criticizing the companies, which can lead to diminished usage and advertisers bailing on the platforms. On top of that, the app stores enforce way more stringent safety measures than the law requires.
These companies know full well that harming children is simply bad for business. It’s ridiculous for sitting members of Congress to pretend otherwise.
We must act because Big Tech is profiting from children, developing algorithms that push harmful content on to our kids’ feeds and refusing to strengthen their platforms’ protections against predators, drug dealers, sex traffickers, extortioners and cyberbullies. Children are paying the price, developing addictive and dangerous habits, often at the expense of their mental health. Big Tech has failed to uphold American democratic values and be fair stewards of the speech they host.
This is utter garbage devoid of any connection to reality. The companies are constantly working on ways to keep harmful content out of kids’ feeds for all the reasons discussed above. It’s bad for everyone. It’s bad for the kids. It’s bad for the families. It’s bad for business.
And you know what allows them to make sure the algorithms are trying to keep harmful content out of the feeds? Section 230! Because, again, without it, companies wouldn’t offer up any algorithms at all. This is because that would be moderating, and that would lead to the potential of knowledge, and with it, ruinous liability.
The claims about social media harming the mental health of kids have been debunked over and over and over and over and over again. It’s just sad that sitting members of Congress are still repeating them.
Furthermore, it’s not clear if Rodgers or Pallone has ever read Section 230. They talk about drug dealers, sex traffickers, and extortionists, leaving out that Section 230 has an exemption for federal criminal activity, and a separate (more recent) exemption for sex trafficking.
It seems pretty damn rich to say that Section 230 is protecting websites for sex trafficking when the law has already been explicitly changed to say that it doesn’t. Are Rodgers and Pallone just not aware of what the law says?
And, I mean, before we rush into repealing Section 230 whole cloth, maybe we should look at that amendment that was put in place with lots of moralizing about “protecting sex trafficking victims,” but which has been shown to have actually put women at tremendous risk.
It’s almost as if politicians can do real harm when they grandstand without understanding the underlying law.
Over the years lawmakers have tried to no avail to address these concerns, thanks in part to Big Tech’s refusal to engage in a meaningful way. Congress has made good-faith efforts to find a solution that preserves Big Tech’s ability to innovate and ensures safety and accountability for past and future harm. It’s time to make that a reality, which is why we are unveiling today bipartisan draft legislation to sunset Section 230.
Again, this is not true. They did pass FOSTA, and as most of the tech industry warned, it has resulted in a ton of harm and basically no benefit.
And, note the underlying premise: that Section 230 only protects “Big Tech” and that it’s “Big Tech” that is trying to stop any changes. That’s also a lie. FOSTA passed because Facebook embraced it.
“Big Tech” is absolutely willing to compromise on Section 230, because they know that all it does is play into their hands. It’s all the other sites that get screwed because of litigation and liability. Meta and Google and the other big tech companies have buildings full of lawyers. Removing Section 230 may harm them at the margins, but they’ll make up for it by having all the smaller competition wiped out.
Our measure aims to restore the internet’s intended purpose—to be a force for free expression, prosperity and innovation. It would require Big Tech and others to work with Congress over 18 months to evaluate and enact a new legal framework that will allow for free speech and innovation while also encouraging these companies to be good stewards of their platforms. Our bill gives Big Tech a choice: Work with Congress to ensure the internet is a safe, healthy place for good, or lose Section 230 protections entirely.
This is beyond delusional. This is Rodgers and Pallone putting a gun to the open internet and telling big tech “let’s make a deal or we kill the open internet.”
But, again, notice the only stakeholder they think matters here: “big tech.” The rest of us get fucked. Users. Small sites. All of us who rely on Section 230 to have spaces to talk get cut out of the deal, as Facebook and Google will absolutely cook up something that protects their interests and screws the rest of us.
But, even more importantly, note what Rodgers and Pallone are explicitly admitting in the paragraph above: they know that Section 230 enables “free speech and innovation.” Yet they’re willing to kill it to spite a few companies they don’t like. What sort of legislator does that?
The proposal would likewise ensure that social-media companies are held accountable for failing to protect our children. Tech companies currently enjoy immunity under Section 230 that applies to virtually no other industry. That makes no sense and must end. Traditional media outlets have long informed and entertained us without the same expansive legal shield. We need a solution that ensures accountability, keeps children safe, and levels the playing field so Big Tech is treated like other industries.
And… we’re back to just not understanding how any of this works. If you are holding companies liable for third-party speech, you run into all of the problems we describe above: fewer companies willing to host any speech, and the few that do either moderating so heavily as to make them useless, or looking the other way entirely to avoid the requisite knowledge.
It appears that Rodgers and Pallone don’t understand the first thing about how any of this works. Remove 230 and add in liability for anything bad that happens to kids, and you have no more open internet. What companies are going to host any content knowing the consequences if they miss something or — much more likely — they simply get blamed for something bad happening to kids that was only tangentially related to the site?
We have already seen tech companies sued for things almost entirely unrelated to content on their site, simply because someone had an account on the site. Currently, litigation is happening all over the place where people are trying to hold social media liable because of basically every harm you can think of.
What kind of person would look at those vexatious lawsuits and say “we need more of that!”?
Reforming Section 230 won’t “break the internet” or hurt free speech, as Big Tech warns. The First Amendment—not Section 230—is the basis for our free-speech protections in the U.S., and it won’t cease providing them even if Section 230 immunity no longer exists.
Again, this is screaming out about their own ignorance. Yes, the First Amendment can protect against some of the more egregious cases, but mounting a First Amendment defense takes way longer and is way, way, way more expensive. And that means that it becomes way more lucrative to file vexatious cases, because companies will choose to pay up nuisance fees to get the cases done with.
Section 230 helps protect against some of that by making it easier to kick such cases out of court earlier, rather than after many more years and much greater expense.
Rodgers and Pallone would likely respond that they don’t care how much it costs or how much time it takes because “Big Tech can afford it.” But again, that ignores that the biggest beneficiaries of Section 230 are not big tech, but anyone who has an interactive computer service that hosts third party content. And yes, this includes people who forward emails or retweet.
The ability to file SLAPP suits against people for retweets and forwarded emails would be a huge fucking mess.
Meaningful changes will ensure these companies are no longer able to hide behind a broadly interpreted law while they manipulate and profit from Americans’ free-speech protections. Updating Section 230 will empower parents, children and others who have been exploited by criminals, drug dealers and others on social-media platforms.
They don’t “hide behind the law.” They get mistargeted, vexatious lawsuits thrown out early.
Updating Section 230 won’t do shit in any of the examples described. It will empower a bunch of ambulance chasing lawyers to shake down tons of people and companies with threats of costly lawsuits. As for the “criminals” and “drug dealers,” what they do is already against the law and exempt from 230’s protections.
Sunsetting Section 230 will require Congress and stakeholders to create a solution that ensures accountability, protects innovation and free speech, and reflects the realities of the digital age. The internet can thrive while still being fair to companies and safe for all.
None of this is correct. All of it is inaccurate. Notice how many outright errors there were in this “op-ed”:
- Section 230 was not created to help just the early internet, but was seen as a permanent fix to an issue that the drafters knew would get worse over time.
- None of the hyperbolic claims about the “harms” are supported by the research and data.
- They don’t seem to realize that Section 230 already exempts criminal activity and has an explicit exemption for sex trafficking.
- They don’t seem to realize that there are other accountability measures beyond “the law,” including users and business partners fleeing.
- They don’t seem to understand how Section 230 works or how it intersects with the First Amendment.
- They don’t understand how vexatious litigants abuse the legal system and how this would help them.
- They don’t understand the nature of the First Amendment and the requirement for knowledge for there to be liability.
- They think the only stakeholders are big tech companies, most of whom have already conceded that they don’t need Section 230, knowing that the real harm will go to smaller competitors.
And on, and on, and on.
We see lots of frustratingly stupid takes on internet policy. But this has to be one of the absolute worst, stupidest examples of ignorant policymaking by the damn fools that we keep electing to Congress.
It’s truly disheartening to see such a fundamental misunderstanding of the issues at hand from those in positions of power. The consequences of their proposed actions would be devastating, not just for the tech industry, but for free speech and innovation as a whole.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, cathy mcmorris rodgers, fosta, frank pallone, free speech, moral panic, protect the children, seciton 230, section 230 repeal


Comments on “Bipartisan Bill To Repeal Section 230 Defended In Facts-Optional Op-Ed”
markup next week in the house of energy and commerce on techbills
acording to this tweet https://twitter.com/ashleyrgold/status/1787550279921025112?t=GZURu1ImJtI_P_pfl_NN3Q&s=19 ( full article for those who wants to see it )https://archive.ph/qxRzc there will be a markup of tech bill next thursday and i am afraid
that pallone and mcmorris will take advantage of that markup to officialy introduce that bill this week . And then put the repeal bill into this markup and send it to the house directly so if that scenario became true do you think there will be enough opposition in the house to stop that Bill in this tracks? And do you think Mike Johnson will agree to sunset 230 ? And in the senate do you think that there will also be a lot of opposition to sunset 230 ? ( I know that Lindsey Graham and Sheldon whitehouse wanted to introduced also a bill to repeal 230 they haven, t done yet as i wrote ). And do you think Chuck Schumer will agree to Sunset section 230 ?
And last Question do you think there,s a way for a tribunal to strike that Bill ? If by woe it became Law thanks for your answers and sorry for the long post
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First off, Grammar. It’s your friend.
Secondly. This. bill. has. Just. Been. Introduced. Yesterday. I hate having to say “wait and see what happens,” but frankly that’s all we can do. If the bill gains traction, then we should be concerned. Plus, I don’t think there’s a lot of support for reforming/repealing section 230 in the House. There hasn’t been anything from the House until now that has been inching to gut Section 230. Any 230 bill that has been introduced in the senate has so far swamped in the House. I hate giving “Wait and see” cause it’s a non-answer, but frankly that’s all I can say.
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Do we know if KOSA will be apart of the markup?
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your that spammer again
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Sure, everyone that asks a question about KOSA is a spammer. Gonna need more evidence than that, hoss.
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The upcoming markup looks to be in House Foreign Affairs (different committee – E&C), so this bill probably won’t come up in that. Given that there isn’t much time, and it’s an election year, there’s a good chance this bill won’t come up this year – unless, of course, it’s tacked onto a must-pass.
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So I have an update on the Sunset Bill: There will be a scheduled hearing on May 22nd, 2024.
Now before anyone panics, I want to make this clear: this is not a mark-up. this is just simply that: a hearing. Likely a formal introduction of the bill to the committee. Think of it like the first step of a first step.
Here is the link: https://republicans-energycommerce.house.gov/posts/bipartisan-energy-and-commerce-leaders-announce-legislative-hearing-on-sunsetting-section-230
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👍
Once more, with feeling:
No one can oppose Section 230 without lying about it.
First off, Grammar. It’s your friend.
Secondly. This. bill. has. Just. Been. Introduced. Yesterday. I hate having to say “wait and see what happens,” but frankly that’s all we can do. If the bill gains traction, then we should be concerned. Plus, I don’t think there’s a lot of support for reforming/repealing section 230 in the House. There hasn’t been anything from the House until now that has been inching to gut Section 230. Any 230 bill that has been introduced in the senate has so far swamped in the House. I hate giving “Wait and see” cause it’s a non-answer, but frankly that’s all I can say.
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Ignore this. This was meant to be a reply. Not a response to the article.
So no word on if the testing for lead in the water lines in the capitol happened?
They really need to do something about this soundbite legislation… we want a good soundbite & we don’t care how insane, wrong, untruthful we have to be to get it.
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You don't understand how the law works
Section 230 is a broken remnant of a much larger law, has been wildly misinterpreted, and and as represented by you (and some others) would allow blatant viewpoint discrimination, and essentially completely editorial control by omission which has definitely happened and in at least some cases at government direction.
Whatever the law was meant to be was part of a larger thing that no longer exists and certainly nothing like what you want to twist it into.
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Mate, I think it’s you who doesn’t understand the law. Section 230 has nothing to do with viewpoints. The only thing the S230 does is that it enables content and content moderation. That is all. It’s not that hard to understand.
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then:
Lol, omg, ROFL.
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Now I get it. You’re one of those very special, clever little people… who can understand words very precisely — while completely failing to understand the sentences they’re in, at all.
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The First Amendment enables content moderation. Section 230 enables moderation to happen without placing the owners of an interactive web service in legal jeopardy for their moderation decisions.
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Insurrection is not protected under 1A, no matter how much you want it to be.
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And we’re all watching you on the floor wondering how you could misunderstand something so simple.
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Ah yes. Discriminated viewpoints like being blatantly pedophilic, spammy, sexist, racist, homophobic, transphobic, and/or every other shade of xenophobia you can think of.
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No, that’s the First Amendment. But keep telling Mike how he “doesn’t understand the law”.
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Section 230 doesn’t do that. The First Amendment does.
No privately owned interactive web service has any obligation to host speech which expresses viewpoints that the owners of that service disagree with. The rights of free speech (“I don’t like your speech…”) and free association (“…so get off my service”) are protected by the First Amendment, whereas 230 enhances that protection by placing liability for speech on those services where it belongs (on the speakers themselves).
Show me where Twitter has any obligation to host pro-trans speech (or anti-trans speech, for that matter). Seriously, name and quote the actual federal law that compels Twitter to host all legally protected speech. You will most likely fail at doing so, but the attempt will be amusing nonetheless.
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If someone thinks that companies moderate too much, maybe they should engage in narrower forms of moderation, then they are entitled to their opinion. Messing around with the law though would create all sorts of problems.
Better might be to convince the media (and politicians) to stop drumming up panics about some form of content or another on social media.
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Ah, Mr “You don’t understand how the law works” is here again giving everyone a sunburn with his projection.
I’ll just repeat what Cox and Wyden said about Section 230 since your reading comprehension is on par with a 1st grader due to your abject stupidity:
let’s make sure that every internet user has the opportunity to exercise their First Amendment rights; and let’s deal with the slime and horrible material on the internet by giving both websites and their users the tools and the legal protection necessary to take it down.
If you haven’t gotten the memo yet you are one those who post “slime”, all due to you being an entitled and butthurt snowflake with the emotional fortitude of a pre-pubescent child throwing tantrums.
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…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
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WPATH Files
or
The Cass Report
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Quote and page number(s), please.
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a.k.a. two hit jobs
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Aka written and believed to be real by pedos.
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As has been pointed out to you numerous times, both of the authors of §230 disagree with everything you just said, except that viewpoint discrimination and editorial control by omission would and has happened, which were both expected and intended and so not an argument that would suggest that Mike is even remotely wrong with §230.
Also, the 1st Amendment also protects viewpoint discrimination and editorial control by omission for platforms and publishers, so that’s also not an objection to say that it’s §230 that’s responsible for it and should therefore be repealed if you don’t like that that happens.
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TL;DR. The First Amendment allows moderation, Section 230 just ensures websites don’t get dinged for exercizing their First Amendment rights. That’s why it was kept when the rest of the law it was part of got scrapped.
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Here’s a hint, blatant viewpoint discrimination is perfectly legal unless it’s the government mandating it.
It was before section 230 existed, and remains so afterward,
ignorant policymaking by the damn fools that we keep electing to Congress
Well then, I guess the damn fools that elected them got the representation they wanted.
Being intentionally deceitful about a subject like this is miles worse than not paying attention. At least not paying attention can be fixed, but it’s almost impossible to make someone stop lying. Because facts are irrelevant.
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The Current Result Is Also A Disaster
I’ve been saying something similar for a long time now, called the Cubby v. Compuserve model. This option doesn’t rely on Section 230, and so it remains the fallback position to this day.
Section 230 was included to enable hosting companies to filter out and moderate obscenity. Just read the Section 230 title, “Protection for private blocking and screening of offensive material”. The Rodgers and Pallone article does read a lot like Section 230 (a) and (b).
The problem is that since passage of the CDA and today is that none of the obscenity filtering has occurred, and instead (c) has been used as a defense against, well, basically everything. Algorithms, yes. But political censorship also. Now, half of the original support for Section 230 has been lost, by folks wondering how the Cubby v. Compuserve model would be worse, while also adding the benefit of free political speech. If the degeneracy portion is permitted, then you’d better allow everything else as well, or else you risk the mainstay of support.
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No Koby.
There’s a very narrow list of things that 1A says are not protected. And it’s all those things society agrees are bad.
Like insurrection, for instance. Oh, and anything that society deems criminal.
You don’t read the law, but then again, coming from someone who supports what happened on Jan 6, I am very, very disappointed the law applies to insurrectionist scum like you.
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Section 230 was crafted with the idea that different websites should be able to filter content differently than the others, such that “family friendly” sites could moderate for any content that wouldn’t fly on those sites, while placing legal liability for the speech left up on the people who posted that speech. 230 is what enables a “family friendly” site to moderate for any content that you wouldn’t find in a PG-rated film—and a site like 4chan to allow all the content that the “family friendly” site disallows.
“Offensive” is in the eye of the beholder. To a queer person, anti-queer speech is offensive; to an anti-queer bigot, pro-queer speech is offensive. No one has ever explained why one of those parties should have the unassailable right to force their speech onto an “opposing” platform without consequence.
Which reminds me…
Yes or no: Do you believe the government should have the right to compel any interactive web service into hosting any third-party speech that said service would otherwise refuse to host?
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Slowly wraps up newspaper.
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C’mon, Koby, you know the drill by now.
Section 230 uses the word moderation to mean “freedom of speech”, and that’s how the courts have interpreted it ever since.
But that was a mistake on the part of Cox and Wyden – they should’ve used instead the later part of 1A, the part about freedom of association. To clarify, they meant that an interactive web service would have the power to associate freely with whomever they might wish. And correspondingly, the power to disassociate with whomever they might wish.
That is the power of S. 230 in regards to moderation, not so-called freedom of speech. Well, that and the blindingly obvious statement that blame for wrong-doing should be placed on the source, and not on the messenger. Can you imagine how soon newspapers would’ve gone out of business if they’d been held responsible for every imaginary transgression of alleged “they canceled me!!”?
Jesus, Koby, get your head out of your ass and stop looking through your rose-colored glass belly button, it’s distorting your vision something awful….
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Section 230 doesn’t even mention the word “moderation”. The closest it comes seems to be (c)(2)(A) and (B), but those parts merely remove liability and allow access restrictions. Nowhere does it mention freedom of speech or association for the platform. Courts could not have an interpretation for the term “moderation” from Section 230, and if they did it would be a fake ruling.
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That’s in the First Amendment and its related jurisprudence. You know that because you’ve been told as much numerous times before.
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Koby, why do you hate 1A and private property rights?
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Because other people keep using those rights to say things Koby and/or their buddies don’t like and/or tell them they’re not welcome on the private property in question.
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Cubby v. Compuserve was the case that said a provider wasn’t liable for third party content only if they did no moderation at all. Is that the type of Internet you want?
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Ah koby. I though i smelled the stench of failure.
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Section c was intended to be interpreted broadly and go far beyond obscenity. Whether or not you like it is irrelevant; that was the original intent.
Logic? Facts?
“Big Tech has failed to uphold American democratic values and be fair stewards of the speech they host.”
This really sounds like the OTHER media concerns, Like the NEWSPAPERS, want to hang this up high.
ASK these folks how they would do without, YT, FB, All the social chats. All the FREE video?
This is the Group that doesnt Like the word Social, in any format. And the word democracy, is Barely in their vocabulary.
And they love when they can confuse others with words they use, like Conservative(it has NO religious meaning).
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I’m marking this day in my calendar, it’s the first time ECA has not only posted something in a reasonable facsimile of proper English, but it’s also on point and cogent to boot. Marked as Insightful.
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Still with the shouting. Dude, can you at least please look up Markdown syntax and use it?
It’s not that we don’t know how 230 works, it’s that we don’t know how anything works. We have no interest in empirical data or logic, they sound like some kind of communism. We only operate on our shady feelings about things.
GOP support for repealing section 203 will last approximately one second longer than it takes someone to sue Truth Social over content there.
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You’re half correct I’d imagine, as I’ve no doubt their position on 230 would be just like their position regarding defamation and every other law on the books at that point: The law is only supposed to help/protect them, it still deserves to be scrapped or eliminated if it’s so ‘broken’ as to be helping/protecting anyone but them.
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Given the quality of the content and their flakey financial situation they’d probably be the first one sued out of existence.
This? This is why they feel safe doing that
… I was going to highlight the many, many sentences where the pair were given the benefit of the doubt by framing their position as ‘not understanding’ the law but then I realized that to quote all of those would require me to damn near copy the entire article. The ‘summary’ at the end alone includes phrasing in almost every single bullet point framing it as ignorance on their part.
Stop. Giving. Politicians. The. Benefit. Of. The. Doubt.
They are big boys and girls who’ve managed to make it to political office on the federal level, who are in a position to pass laws that affect hundreds of millions of people in just the US alone, and are trying to do just that.
If they say something wrong in a casual conversation that might be honest ignorance on their part but when they reach the point of proposing a law, of writing op-eds to be read on a national level?
If they say something wrong at that point, it’s deliberate, and the most generous option at that point is that they refuse to learn and have intentionally not listened to anyone trying to correct/educate them, and given how impossible that would be at that level that really only leaves ‘I know I’m wrong but I’m going to say it anyway’, otherwise knows as lying.
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“Stop. Giving. Politicians. The. Benefit. Of. The. Doubt.”
Why is it so damned difficult for people to understand this? You would think that these folks actually believe that politicians were incapable of telling lies. When you have 100 men and women telling the same lie over and over, its not a misunderstanding. It is an agenda.
From the people always complaining about “misinformation” is a lot of intentional misinformation. This is why I don’t trust anyone in the government.
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Keep in mind that Ron Wyden is a senator, and Chris Cox eventually became George W. Bush’s SEC Chairman.
I’d definitely trust those two in government.
Re: Re:
If gene tech ever gets good enough, can we clone Wyden and Cox and populate Congress and the House of Representatives entirely with their clones?
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Websites will just have to relocate outside the United States
At least delayung repeal until the end of next year will give websites enough time to move their operations offshore
If you own property in the San Francisco, Austin, Portland or Seattle areas now you should sell now because home values will drop like a rock when companies go offshore to avoid us laws
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Pardon my French but that is a batshit crazy and unrealistic plan. Moving every website off of the United States isn’t just unfeasible, but also completely pointless. Because most of the countries that regulate their sides of the internet are not as kindly nor as tolerant as the USA. Most of these countries don’t even have their own version of Section 230. The websites, foreign or not, will still have to abide by American law when used by American citizens. The only feasible solution is to make ourselves loud and clear that we don’t want this. Trust me, speaking out does wonders.
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And certain countries have libel laws that turn the expression of opinions on social media into a much riskier proposition than it would be in the United States. Ask anyone in the UK who’s been the victim of a legal threat from J.K. Rowling over the accusation that she is a Holocaust denier.
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Don’t blame foreign languages for your ableist utterances, phobe.
Re: Re: Re: ????
What are you even talking about? Foreign languages have nothing to do with it. You’re asking every American-based website owner to be uprooted from their own livelihoods to go to another country in response to the threat of Section 230’s sunset. That is utterly nonsensical and counterproductive because it does not solve anything whatsoever.
Also, don’t throw around “phobe” or “ableist” without giving a reason.
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Re: Re: Re:2
You were saying, disability phobe?
Re: Re: Re:3
The irony of linking to a website with a 12px font to bitch about disability phobia is hilarious. That website fails WCAG standards hard. Did you just google the first website you could find to support your weak argument?
Re: Re: Re:4
The irony of bitching about a website with a 12px font as though it can’t be adjusted is hilarious. Your comment fails argument standards hard.
Re: Re: Re:2
Fucking what?
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Re: Re: Re:2
To add:
I just want to say that your immediate recourse to a hasty generalization on not only insufficient evidence, but actually zero evidence shows two things: 1) you have no actual argument to make, and 2) you tried to get another commenter shut down just because you disagreed with their opinion of your hate speech, showing you up as a hypocrite regarding freedom of speech.
Re: Re: Re:3
Lacking in reading comprehension much or do you often make shit up out of thin air because you don’t understand the context?
Re: Re: Re:4
Hello, Cat Daddy. Doing the whole Koby projection from behind the AC tag thing, I see.
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Websites outside the United States are not subject to American laws
That is why iptv services in brics countries cannot be prosecuted in the USA for violating the Commercial Felony Streaming Act. They are following the laws of their home countries and are licensed to operate their home countries and that is all that matters
They are not subject in any way to any American laws
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Yes, your point being?
As mentioned above by Stephen Stone, not only other countries are way more regulatory about free speech online, but some have libel laws that would make for shaky grounds for websites to operate in. Like for example, the European Union, which has so much digital regulation that coughing the wrong way would get you fined. You have to abide by the EU Copyright Directive’s infamous upload filters, or the Digital Services Act’s vague rules on what constitutes as hate speech and disinformation and of course the upcoming possible legislation that might make end-to-end encryption illegal on a whole continent.
And if you think anywhere else is better, well I’m sorry to disappoint you. Canada has C-11, which basically transforms the Canadian government’s broadcasting arm to take command of that side of the internet to an Orwellian degree; Britain has the Online Safety Act, which is basically KOSA but British with the power to block websites deemed harmful or inadequate. And that’s most of the Free-World, I could go on and on about the absolute clusterfuck that is modern-day digital regulation. It’s not simple enough for a website owner to uproot from their livelihood, move to a different country, follow its laws, and live Hakuana Matatah. It’s just not as simple as “following their home country’s rules.”
I’m just saying that moving to greener pastures is easier said than done. And what does running away do for you?
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And they still have to follow the law in their respective countries, dipshit.
Your fucking IPTV station is still illegal in Singapore, as long as it operates IN Singapore. Now, if it operated out of a cruise ship or something, you might have a shaky argument.
Likewise, Singapore has rules on speech too, which make C-11 in Canada look downright sensible.
And that’s just Singapore. India and China don’t even think you deserve overbroad rules limiting speech, just straight arrows to your literal chest should you offend their Supreme Leaders, and all it takes it for you to exist.
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Re: Re: Re:2
That Singapore service blocks users in Singapore so it follows Singapore law
The same for IPTV services in India, China, abd Russia. The Chinese ones block Chinese users, the Russian ones block Russian users.
Re: Re: Re:3
No it doesn’t.
And the blocking will only buy you a tiny amount of time.
“Staying in the good graces of a totalitarian” is terrible business advice, btw.
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Re: Re: Re:4
American laws have no jurisdiction in any of the countries these iptv services operate from.
Us laws do.aoply in russia, China, India, Singapore, Cuba, or North Korea.
The IPTV services in those countries do not have to oney amerucan laws.
They are in no way subject to prosecution in the United States.
The commercial fekiny streaming act has no jurisdiction in those countries.
The one in North Korea only accepts those must untraceable crypto. They only take payments in monero and ethereum which have been designed to be more untraceable than Bitcoin.
The North Korean one has 175000 channels from every country in Earth
The 3000 plus porn channels has increased their subscription as there is no age verification
Age verification laws in states like Texas have no jurisdiction in the dprk
As long as they don’t serve anyone in North korea, they can do pretty much what they want.
That is just more money for the supreme leader
With 70 million subscribers at $15 a month that is over a billion a month and they can never be procecuted in the United States because the commercial fekint streaming act has no jurisdiction there even if a subscriber is in the United States
The Kims started that one as a big middle finger to the west ave there is nothing that anyone can do about it
Re: Re: Re:5
Okay, this is downright delusional. Are you implying that North Korea is the best place for websites to go to in the event of Section 230 going away? North Korea. One of the most totalitarian regimes on the planet. A place where everyone is trying to escape by any means necessary. A country that is so draconian and secretive, that there is virtually no data for anything. A place that demands complete devotion to one family for generations. Because when I think of this…
[image] (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Korean_Peninsula_at_night_from_space.jpg)
…I think prime real estate for websites.
Re: Re: Re:3
Yes. But that just proves that moving all websites out of the US in response to a potential Section 230 ban is a really bad idea.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Some regimes are “show me the money”
You give them enough money and they will let you set up shop
Money talks. Show them the money and you are in
Re: Re: Re:5
Bribery is not a sustainable solution to operate a website in an authoritarian country. Plus, why would any website choose this over operating in the US? That makes no sense at all.
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Another option would be forvsites to block us up addresses, but geo blocking is trivial to defeat.
Some pirate IPTV sites block users in their home countries but let the rest of the world watch.
They follow the law in their home country abd that is all they have to follow
Sites in China will block users in China but let the rest of the world watch.
That doesn’t mean they’re doing a good job, rather than just covering their asses.
I mean, if you look at how badly they (consistently) fuck it up in some cases, it certainly looks true. Companies care enough to avoid bad PR. But there’s a lot of room between “avoid bad PR” and actual good trust&safety teams. It may not be as bad as Twitter’s current dumpster fire, but that’s a low bar and we can/should expect better.
It does shield some legal consequences. For example, state or (some) civil liability. And it’s literally supposed to.
It doesn’t happen “any” time, though. There are plenty of examples that never get covered.
(And of course, there are many examples where the risk of public pressure didn’t get companies to stop doing things in the first place. Which shows the limit of how much that can do. You’ve covered this in other areas, like pushing for data privacy laws, instead of relying on public pressure)
It’s possible to abet those things, without going to the degree of criminal liability. For example, by:
they would almost certainly do so with explicit plans to never bother to look at the content and never moderate.
230 overall is a good thing, and the Reps are making a pretty ignorant attack on it. But some of these defenses are also bit overboard. We can acknowledge that 230 is good, and also how sites handle things like trust and safety currently has some massive holes. Even the companies with good T&S teams regularly sideline them.
There shouldn’t be liability for a company acting in good faith. But there’s room for liability for some narrow cases of things like negligence, that aren’t covered by current 230. Which, granted, is not what they’re asking for, and would be nearly impossible to pass in current Congress without messing up the good parts of 230.
Sidenote:
That’s more an argument that First Amendment defenses are fundamentally broken and should be fixed, tbh. (“more egregious” is also.. doing some work, there). You shouldn’t have to go broke to exercise your First Amendment rights.
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Yes, it shields websites from the legal consequences of what their users post by allowing for dismissal at the preliminary stage. Your point?
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That Mike is saying it doesn’t shield any kind of responsibility/accountability, which I quoted. It does in fact do that.
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If you read the quote block he’s responding to, he’s countering the claim that section 230 shields social media from any(read: all) liability. Section 230 only shields them from very specific liability related to third-party speech.
So your “counter” is pointless.
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If they were just covering their asses, they would be doing the bare minimum, which it should be pretty evident isn’t the case.
Also, good content moderation is impossible at scale.
Fucking up doesn’t imply not caring; it just implies potentially flawed processes, which, again, relates back to content moderation being impossible to do well at scale.
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I think that depends on which issues/companies you’re talking about. In many cases, it’s not the case. But there are certainly outliers, as well. As just two random examples offhand, I don’t see how you can say that’s pretty evident in e.g. the Herrick Grindr case, or this recent personal example with reddit inconsistently leaving up minors contacting others for cyber. Neither of those examples strikes me as reasonable. There’s no clever bypassing of IP/geolocation bans, etc. It’s just straight up using the service, and breaking it in a very fundamental way.
And also just speaking more generally- why wouldn’t you expect them to enshittify moderation, just like everything else? It’s fundamentally the same balancing act.
This is true, but the point of that article was not to act as a carte blanche. Mike explicitly mentions this point: Importantly, this is not an argument that we should throw up our hands and do nothing. Nor is it an argument that companies can’t do better jobs within their own content moderation efforts.
The point of Mike’s article is that there are a bunch of things that make moderation difficult- users bypassing blocks, grey cases etc. And he’s totally right, and companies do deserve significant leeway when they’re working on those issues in good faith. It’s not reasonable (or possible) to expect perfection.
But at the same time, there are cases where none of that is happening, as well. The argument is not that moderation should be (or can be) perfect. But rather, there are some companies dropping the ball, and they can be addressed.
I think that depends on the severity of the fuck up, how long it’s been around/known, how fixable it is etc. The process can only be so flawed before it’s unreasonable. I suppose you ultimately can’t really know if it’s not caring or incompetence. But there’s a point where it doesn’t really matter, and is negligent regardless.
It’s impossible to have perfect moderation. It’s not impossible to expect a company to not need 50 reports and a court injunction to put some effort into stopping harassment on their platform. I could see it if there was a bug in the reporting software, or some other mitigating factor, but there doesn’t seem to be.
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We know already.
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Murdoch simp,
Why do you hate the First Amendment?
These “arguments” are the same arguments politicians use to undermine (lie about) Section 230, and by extension, the First Amendment.
You fucking know this. We’ve told you that much, and if you need more information, we’re on fucking Techdirt, there are so many articles about this issue all you need to do is READ.
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Re: Re:
I don’t.
No, they’re not actually the same arguments. I’m far more careful in how I word things, because I do actually quite like Section 230 overall.
Feel free to point out where you think I lied, exactly, and I’ll happily explain why it’s not a lie. I’ll also explain to you why it’s not the same argument as < insert politician > that you seem to think it is.
I’m very aware that politicians try to undermine 230. I’m not making the same arguments, nor am I trying to undermine 230, which is why you aren’t giving any actual specifics. I don’t think criticizing how Mike frames 230 undermines 230. Accuracy is good for defending 230.
I’ve read them. They do not cover the specific points I’m making.
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Yes, yes, we know and don’t care.
Drop the fucking sophistry and speak plainly and simply.
You threw a fucking Karen fit when we praised Facebook for finally doing the right thing regarding link taxes, despite the fact that we’re on fucking Techdirt. You know, where always distrust Facebook is simply assumed to be implied.
And, unless I’m reading your evasive almost non-arguments wrong, you seem to want the Constitution applied unevenly to foreigners, undocumented immigrants and citizens.
Long story short, I do not trust your words in any shape or form.
I’m going to assume you know about the Republican lines of argument, ie, they want to right to issue death threats to anyone outside of their ingroup, so I’ll instead keep the explanations for the Democrat side simple.
You are claiming that Section 230 (and by extension 1A) cannot protect against everything, since things like online harassment exists and whatnot. And a lot of Dems use that to push “improvements” 230 that would either limit or strip those protections.
Or, shit that 1A cannot cover.
Beaides, you don’t even understand how moderation works.
Fuckin’ rich, coming from you.
Then MAKE THOSE FUCKING POINTS INSTEAD OF DANCING AROUND THE MATTER.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Well, that’s a you problem, then. Nothing I can do about that. If you just want to yell about things I’m not saying because you’re mad about something else I didn’t say, that’s your 1A right.
I am. My original post is pretty darn plain. I’m not sure what you’re struggling with.
Yes, and I was right to, given the stupid arguments people were making for why it did that thing. I was annoyed about it because we’re on Techdirt, and explained explicitly why. That was embarrassing/unjustified, and you can tell it was, because no one actually bothered giving an argument for it.
Not when people were (and still are) explicitly playing dumb about Facebook’s motives on those issues, it’s not. Otherwise, yes, it would be.
You did read it wrong (again). I said that it already applies differently to foreigners (I didn’t say anything about undocumented immigrants). That’s just an objective fact, and I literally gave an example in CFIUS, which literally already applies differently to foreigners while still being uncontroversially Constitutional. There are many other examples, like foreigner donations to campaigns (which is 1A expressive activity according to SCOTUS, and also restricted for foreigners in a way that it isn’t for citizens).
No, I wasn’t. But since you asked, they don’t. There are already existing exceptions for both. Things like criminal acts (for 230, which explicitly says it does not protect against federal criminal acts) , and harassment (for 1A). That is the existing law, and isn’t being disputed.
Nothing I’ve said requires trust. You can (and should) verify everything I’ve ever said for yourself.
I literally did. They’re right there, plainly and simply, in my original post. Y’know, the one you responded to without actually addressing the points? Those aren’t dancing around the matter those are the points I was making.
Re: Re: Re:3
Your arguments are full of unsubstantiated assumptions and accusations and you use anecdotal evidence the whole time to prop up your arguments. Examples:
Translated: They are doing a bad job and are intentionally covering their asses.
Did you factor in that we are talking about billions of posts and those doing the moderation are actual people?
Lets make a thought experiment and use your reasoning: Is it fair to say, if you make 1 spelling mistake for every 1000 words you write you are consistently fucking it up because you don’t care? Is it also fair to call you illiterate because of it?
You say this, but you don’t give examples. I should point out that when people talk about liability and section 230, 99% of the time they are wrong.
This one is pure logic fail. If there are plenty of examples they must have been covered, because if they never get covered there is no examples.
I want a list of examples were they do this, it should be easy for you to produce something that isn’t anecdotal since it apparently happens regularly.
You say a lot of things like this, but you never manage to give examples of it so I want examples that’s relevant.
It really isn’t, you are conflating a broken justice system that dispenses justice that directly correlates to a persons financial situation.
The problem everyone have with you and how you make your arguments, is that you talk about how common things some things are and how many examples there are and how bad companies are and how they are doing shitty things on purpose. You do this while never providing actual examples that proves something is common place, you use anecdotal evidence at best or your own opinion as a “factual” basis for an argument you made.
That shit doesn’t fly here.
And the whole fucking FB-argument you had with people, that was just plain stupidity from your side because it seems your are incapable of understanding that even with all the stupid stuff FB does, sometimes they actually do the right thing. And when the latter was highlighted in contrast to how mediocre FB normally operates you had total shitfit accusing everyone of being FB fanboys.
On top of all that, you stanning for linktaxes repeating almost every talking point from the Murdoch news-media takes the cake.
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“negligence” is not narrow. Not by a long shot. You could argue virtually anything is “negligent”.
It is very easy to come up with a “fix” for something which has a lot of negative consequences attached to it. Worse, these companies are so big, that they might not even notice it, until someone comes yelling at them down the line.
“Congress’s failure to revisit this law is irresponsible and untenable.”
The only thing that is “irresponsible” here are ignorant proposals like this.