TikTok Dances Into Court, Slams Ban As Unconstitutional

from the and-off-we-go dept

While I’m still waiting for TikTok to release its 30-second long dancing interpretation of why the TikTok ban is unconstitutional, at least it’s now going to court to make the argument for real. It took maybe a week or so longer than expected, but TikTok and ByteDance have now officially filed their lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the TikTok ban law.

This lawsuit was always going to happen, and now it’s here. The complaint does not mince words:

Congress has taken the unprecedented step of expressly singling out and banning TikTok: a vibrant online forum for protected speech and expression used by 170 million Americans to create, share, and view videos over the Internet. For the first time in history, Congress has enacted a law that subjects a single, named speech platform to a permanent, nationwide ban, and bars every American from participating in a unique online community with more than 1 billion people worldwide.

That law — the Protecting Americans From Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act (the “Act”) — is unconstitutional. Banning TikTok is so obviously unconstitutional, in fact, that even the Act’s sponsors recognized that reality, and therefore have tried mightily to depict the law not as a ban at all, but merely a regulation of TikTok’s ownership. According to its sponsors, the Act responds to TikTok’s ultimate ownership by ByteDance Ltd., a company with Chinese subsidiaries whose employees support various ByteDance businesses, including TikTok. They claim that the Act is not a ban because it offers ByteDance a choice: divest TikTok’s U.S. business or be shut down.

But in reality, there is no choice. The “qualified divestiture” demanded by the Act to allow TikTok to continue operating in the United States is simply not possible: not commercially, not technologically, not legally. And certainly not on the 270-day timeline required by the Act. Petitioners have repeatedly explained this to the U.S. government, and sponsors of the Act were aware that divestment is not possible. There is no question: the Act will force a shutdown of TikTok by January 19, 2025, silencing the 170 million Americans who use the platform to communicate in ways that cannot be replicated elsewhere.

I’ve pointed out that I agree that this bill is unconstitutional. In talking to various legal experts about it, I’d say that the feeling is not universal. Around 70% or so of the legal experts I’ve spoken to think it’s unconstitutional, leaving some who believe that there is constitutional justification for this.

The petition points out that this law is inconsistent with the First Amendment (as an attack on free speech) and the Fifth Amendment (over due process and principles of fairness), and the law is a Bill of Attainder targeting one company by name. The petition argues that there were much less aggressive ways of achieving whatever policy goal the US government is seeking without banning the app outright (or forcing divestiture). Specifically, TikTok points repeatedly to the years-long negotiations process the company has had with CFIUS (the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States) to make it clear that TikTok was not a threat, including making a variety of promises and putting in place ways to check that the company was living up to those promises.

The petition also points out that there have been no legislative findings regarding TikTok, just random conjecture.

In dramatic contrast with past enactments that sought to regulate constitutionally protected activity, Congress enacted these extreme measures without a single legislative finding. The Act does not articulate any threat posed by TikTok nor explain why TikTok should be excluded from evaluation under the standards Congress concurrently imposed on every other platform. Even the statements by individual Members of Congress and a congressional committee report merely indicate concern about the hypothetical possibility that TikTok could be misused in the future, without citing specific evidence — even though the platform has operated prominently in the United States since it was first launched in 2017. Those speculative concerns fall far short of what is required when First Amendment rights are at stake.

It also points out that it had previously agreed to “Project Texas” the last time the government tried to ban the service and has made certain “commitments” to CFIUS regarding its use of data, including agreeing that CFIUS can shut down the service if TikTok is found to have violated such agreements (I don’t recall hearing about this particular detail before).

As part of this engagement, Petitioners have voluntarily invested more than $2 billion to build a system of technological and governance protections — sometimes referred to as “Project Texas” — to help safeguard U.S. user data and the integrity of the U.S. TikTok platform against foreign government influence. Petitioners have also made extraordinary, additional commitments in a 90-page draft National Security Agreement developed through negotiations with the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (“CFIUS”), including agreeing to a “shut-down option” that would give the government the authority to suspend TikTok in the United States if Petitioners violate certain obligations under the agreement.

Unsurprisingly, the lawsuit points out that President Trump’s attempt to ban TikTok failed badly, as the court found no legitimate basis for the ban.

The complaint details more of the CFIUS negotiations, which had previously been mostly behind closed doors. It suggests that the company was willing to work with the US government to prove it wasn’t doing anything problematic, but the US government effectively stopped talking.

Between January 2021 and August 2022, Petitioners and CFIUS engaged in an intensive, fact-based process to develop a National Security Agreement that would resolve the U.S. government’s concerns about whether Chinese authorities might be able to access U.S. user data or manipulate content on TikTok, as well as resolve the pending CFIUS dispute. During that time, Petitioners and government officials communicated regularly, often several times a week — including several in-person meetings — about the government’s concerns and potential solutions. The result was an approximately 90-page draft National Security Agreement with detailed annexes embodying a comprehensive solution addressing the government’s national security concerns. Notably, the draft National Security Agreement provided that all protected U.S. user data (as defined in the agreement) would be stored in the cloud environment of a U.S.-government-approved partner, Oracle Corporation, which would also review and vet the TikTok source code.

From Petitioners’ perspective, all indications were that they were nearing a final agreement. After August 2022, however, CFIUS without explanation stopped engaging with Petitioners in meaningful discussions about the National Security Agreement. Petitioners repeatedly asked why discussions had ended and how they might be restarted, but they did not receive a substantive response. In March 2023, without providing any justification for why the draft National Security Agreement was inadequate, CFIUS insisted that ByteDance would be required to divest the U.S. TikTok business.

As for the actual grounds on which the petition is based, it obviously starts with the First Amendment:

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that “Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech.” U.S. Const., amend. I.

By banning all online platforms and software applications offered by “TikTok” and all ByteDance subsidiaries, Congress has made a law curtailing massive amounts of protected speech. Unlike broadcast television and radio stations, which require government licenses to operate because they use the public airwaves, the government cannot, consistent with the First Amendment, dictate the ownership of newspapers, websites, online platforms, and other privately created speech forums.

Indeed, in the past, Congress has recognized the importance of protecting First Amendment rights, even when regulating in the interest of national security. For example, Congress repeatedly amended IEEPA — which grants the President broad authority to address national emergencies that pose “unusual and extraordinary threat[s]” to the country — to expand protections for constitutionally protected materials. 50 U.S.C. §§ 1701–02. Accordingly, under IEEPA, the President does not have the authority to even indirectly regulate “personal communication” or the importation or exportation “of any information or informational materials,” id. § 1702(b)(1), (3) — limitations that are necessary “to prevent the statute from running afoul of the First Amendment,” Amirnazmi, 645 F.3d at 585. Yet Congress has attempted to sidestep these statutory protections aimed at protecting Americans’ constitutional rights, preferring instead to simply enact a new statute that tries to avoid the constitutional limitations on the government’s existing statutory authority. Those statutory protections were evidently seen as an impediment to Congress’s goal of banning TikTok, so the Act dispensed with them.

As TikTok points out, the ban hurts the First Amendment rights of both the Americans who use the platform (though it’s not as clear that TikTok can represent them) and TikTok itself. This argument pulls heavily from the Texas/Florida NetChoice cases that the Supreme Court is still considering, but TikTok calls out the US government’s briefing in that case:

First, Petitioner TikTok Inc. has a First Amendment interest in its editorial and publishing activities on TikTok. See Hurley v. IrishAm. Gay, Lesbian & Bisexual Grp. of Bos., 515 U.S. 557, 570 (1995). TikTok “is more than a passive receptacle or conduit for news, comment, and advertising” of others; TikTok Inc.’s “choice of material” to recommend or forbid “constitute[s] the exercise of editorial control and judgment” that is protected by the First Amendment. Miami Herald Pub. Co. v. Tornillo, 418 U.S. 241, 258 (1974); see also Alario v. Knudsen, — F. Supp. 3d —, 2023 WL 8270811, at *6 (D. Mont. Nov. 30, 2023) (recognizing TikTok Inc.’s First Amendment editorial rights).

As the government itself has acknowledged, “[w]hen [social media] platforms decide which third-party content to present and how to present it, they engage in expressive activity protected by the First Amendment because they are creating expressive compilations of speech.” Br. for United States as Amicus Curiae at 12–13, Moody v. NetChoice LLC, No. 22-277 (U.S.), 2023 WL 8600432; see also id. at 18– 19, 25–26.

Second, TikTok Inc. is among the speakers whose expression the Act prohibits. TikTok Inc. uses the TikTok platform to create and share its own content about issues and current events, including, for example, its support for small businesses, Earth Day, and literacy and education.18 When TikTok Inc. does so, it is engaging in core speech protected by the First Amendment. See Sorrell v. IMS Health Inc., 564 U.S. 552, 570 (2011); NetChoice, LLC v. Att’y Gen., Fla., 34 F.4th 1196, 1210 (11th Cir. 2022), cert. granted, 144 S. Ct. 478 (2023). The Act precludes TikTok Inc. from expressing itself over that platform.

Then, there is a long (but quite readable!) analysis of why this case requires strict scrutiny and why the law fails strict scrutiny (not narrowly tailored, there are less rights-limiting means to achieve whatever policy goal, etc.). But it also points out that even if the court goes with intermediate scrutiny, the law would still fail for not being “narrowly tailored.”

From there, TikTok makes the Bill of Attainder arguments. This one had appealed to me early on, as it seems pretty clear that the bill qualifies. It literally names TikTok. Still, a bunch of lawyers have pointed out that the courts have, in the past, made it pretty hard to win Bill of Attainder cases. This is because they require not just that it be narrowly targeted at a single party, but that it also involve “punishment,” which the courts often view very narrowly.

That said, there’s no reason not to raise this argument, so as not to cut it off as a possibility. Anyone looking at a common sense view of the law has to admit that it’s a pretty clear Bill of Attainder.

Article I of the U.S. Constitution prohibits Congress from passing any bill of attainder. U.S. Const. art. I § 9, cl. 3 (“No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.”). A bill of attainder is “legislative punishment, of any form or severity, of specifically designated persons or groups.” United States v. Brown, 381 U.S. 437, 447 (1965). The protection against bills of attainder is “an implementation of the separation of powers, a general safeguard against legislative exercise of the judicial function, or more simply — trial by legislature.”…

By singling out Petitioners for legislative punishment, the Act is an unconstitutional bill of attainder.

The Act inflicts “pains and penalties” that historically have been associated with bills of attainder. See Nixon v. Adm’r of Gen. Servs., 433 U.S. 425, 474 (1977). Historically, common “pains and penalties” included “punitive confiscation of property by the sovereign” and “a legislative enactment barring designated individuals or groups from participation in specified employments or vocations,” among others. Id. As described above, the Act confiscates Petitioners’ U.S. businesses by forcing ByteDance to shutter them within 270 days or sell on terms that are not commercially, technologically, or legally feasible. See supra ¶¶ 26‒29. For the same reason, the Act bars Petitioners from operating in their chosen line of business.

After that, there’s an equal protection/due process claim:

There is no conceivable reason for treating Petitioners differently than all other similarly situated companies. Even if Congress had valid interests in protecting U.S. users’ data and controlling what content may be disseminated through global platforms that would be advanced through the Act, there is no reason why those concerns would support a ban on Petitioners’ platforms without corresponding bans on other platforms. Nor is there any rational reason why Congress would ban Petitioners’ platforms while allowing any other company “controlled by a foreign adversary” — regardless of the national security threat posed by that company — to sidestep the Act’s reach by simply offering an application that “allows users to post product reviews, business reviews, or travel information and reviews,” but changing nothing else about the company’s operations, ownership structure, or other applications.

Finally, there’s a “Takings Clause” argument which strikes me as the weakest (but, then again, it’s put last and not all that well developed):

The Takings Clause provides that “private property” shall not be “taken for public use, without just compensation.” U.S. Const. amend. V, cl. 5. The Act does just that by shutting down ByteDance’s U.S. businesses or, to the extent any qualified divestiture alternative is even feasible (it is not), compelling ByteDance to sell those businesses under fire-sale circumstances that guarantee inadequate compensation.

All in all, it’s a well-argued brief, making basically all of the arguments everyone was expecting to be made here. The law required this petition be brought straight to the DC Circuit appeals court, so we get to skip the fun of a random judge at a district court making some ridiculous ruling. Instead, we’ll see what a panel of appeals court judges think. No matter what happens, this case is going to the Supreme Court.

I’ve seen some people saying that no argument will work because the conservative majority on the court will ignore anything in favor of “China bad!” but I’m not convinced of that. From what we’ve seen in recent cases, there are still at least some Justices on the court who seem to believe in a principled First Amendment take. We’ll just have to see if there are enough of them.

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Companies: bytedance, tiktok

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Comments on “TikTok Dances Into Court, Slams Ban As Unconstitutional”

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74 Comments
duane (profile) says:

it's fine by me

I agree the privacy argument is specious. Although, I think if we make this argument for a Chinese “controlled” company, we should have an easier time pivoting that scrutiny to companies like meta and google.

However, what I find reasonably intelligent is that there is a real reason to be concerned that there is a portal to millions of Americans that is possibly being influenced by another government. That that government is known for conducting operations aimed at influencing people’s opinions in our country is doubly alarming.

Yes there are concerns, so many concerns, but I think the easiest way to think about it, is this, you would not hand your neighbor the remote to your TV and expect to not end up watching what they want you to watch.

Now, you might argue this is not that. That China only owns 1 percent of the company and the company is headquartered in Singapore and they said they’d never do such a thing, pinkie promise, etc., but China is going to do what China does and influencing the opinions of millions while stonefacedly denying even having the ability to do such a thing, is very much what China does.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Actually, this TikTok refers to “TikTok Inc.”, a US-based company (that’s is a subsidiary of ByteDance’s (Cayman Island company) TikTok (service)).
So if ByteDance sells this company to another US company, that will rename it (to avoid having 2 “TikTok” apps), it would be a completely different service from the actual one (except outside US where it would be exactly the same, minus the US users).
If none of the current content would be kept, and all users loose their data, it’s exactly as if US would close a US social network like Snapchat or Twitter.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

This was not an they ban us we ban them argument. There is no claim china is banning the US, this is a specious argument.

The US is already banning chinese companies. The ban is premised on security arguments based on vague claims of CCP influence. But all of the companies US industry deals with are ownd in part by the CCP or its members and pose just as big a security threat. Indeed, it was just a few years ago that the big CCP threat was Huawei networking equipment. Which we “banned”. Required companies to rip out all the Huawei gear. And then refused to follow through, so the Huawei “threat” still exists. because the threat was never as serious as claimed, and the ban was entirely performative nonsense.

This ban is just as performative, and the suggestion we actually treat the supposed threat as real served to highlight that issue. And you chose to ignore that so hard in favor of propping up the tiktok ban you thought the author was claiming we should retaliate for Chinese bans.

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Ben (profile) says:

Re: Evidence?

There’s that thing again: ” that is possibly being influenced by another government ” (my emphasis, obv.)

It would appear that the US government (two branches of it, anyway) want to disregard the evidence of the CFIUS process and rely instead upon hyperbole to drive policy. This is not a long-term strategy for government stability or success.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

You’re okay with a TikTok ban because China says things that disagree with what you believe. In other words, you’re in favor of censorship when your government does it in a way that favors your particular opinions.

Meanwhile, you’re completely ignoring a very real (and huge) national security threat: the Republican Party, a.k.a. the party of Putin. The Kremlin’s propaganda continues to inundate the Republican Party. Russian troll farms have operated on American social media platforms, but legislators haven’t been gunning to ban Facebook or Twitter over it.

As for the solution to both of those problems… well, a ban isn’t going to work. People need to be educated on how to spot propaganda, and people need to be taught to value the truth.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Okay, so let’s ban Facebook for accepting Russian money to let Russian agents run an actual disinfo campaign then.

You know, the fucking that that actually fucking happened, with Facebook admitting as such.

And while we’re at it, let’s also arrest Elon Musk as well. For doing the same fucking thing.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

However, what I find reasonably intelligent is that there is a real reason to be concerned that there is a portal to millions of Americans that is possibly being influenced by another government.

You should be more worried about the influence of Faux News & Co..

Telecart (profile) says:

Consolidated media power

During the broadcast era, I believe there were laws in place to prevent foreign nationals or entities from controlling tv and radio stations in the US.
Could you imagine the Soviet Union being allowed to own ABC, NBC, or CBS?

But that is precisely the equivalent of what’s going on here with TikTok.

For better or worse, these social apps have these powerful winner-takes-most network effects, and TikTok is now the dominant “broadcast network” for a certain age group.

Not recognizing that there is no way the US can allow that to be run by foreign interests is extremely naive in my mind.

I’ll also mention that it’s taken as a matter of course that Google, Meta, Twitter etc are forbidden from operating in mainland China but Chinese companies are free to operate anywhere. This tilts the field in such a way that the long term Expected Value is that China would always win, since their giant corps can operate in the two largest consumer markets, but US giant corps cannot.
Your anticompetitive brain must have tingled a bit from that, no?

Anyway
Let’s hope the SCOTUS doesn’t throw away too much of the first amendment with the national security bathwater.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Could you imagine the Soviet Union being allowed to own ABC, NBC, or CBS? But that is precisely the equivalent of what’s going on here with TikTok.

It isn’t even remotely equivalent.

The most obvious difference is that TikTok doesn’t have anywhere near the market share that the Big Three did. The average TikTok user spends less than an hour a day on the app, versus six hours on other internet media.

The next most obvious difference is that TikTok has minimal control over what content it serves up, while NBC/CBS/ABC had total control over their content. Sure, TikTok could assert complete control… whereupon everyone would stop using it, because that’s would destroy the whole purpose of the app.

Finally, the Chinese government does not own TikTok. TikTok is owned by a company that also does business with China. NBC was owned by a company that did business with the Soviet Union, namely General Electric.

nasch (profile) says:

Re:

Not recognizing that there is no way the US can allow that to be run by foreign interests is extremely naive in my mind.

The question is, would it even help? Is Russia able to influence the US public despite not owning a major American social media network? If so, what hope is there that divestiture of TikTok will hobble China’s ability to do so?

Anonymous Coward says:

I would argue that the part of the bill that is laid out as a Bill of Attainder should be found unconstitutional as it applies special rules to TikTok and ByteDance specifically, but I would not be at all surprised if TikTok were to be submitted under the other clause in the bill that the courts would find that block constitutional provided that the administration can lay out a convincing case that there is an actual national security threat.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: If they had the evidence they would have presented it by now

the courts would find that block constitutional provided that the administration can lay out a convincing case that there is an actual national security threat.

As TikTok’s filing notes the USG has had a multitude of opportunities to show any evidence of such and has instead presented nothing more than potential hypotheticals of what the company/platform might do, which does not evidence make.

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TKnarr (profile) says:

Re:

I think TikTok will win there because:

  1. The government hasn’t presented any such case for there being a national security threat. And even if they did,
  2. The threat isn’t from a Chinese company owning TikTok specifically but from the Chinese government having access to the data. Banning TikTok won’t address that because the Chinese government can get all that same information from all the other social media companies and advertising networks that the law doesn’t do anything about.
Arijirija says:

Re: Re:

If the Chinese govt were to rely on TikTok for data on US citizens of interest, the Chinese govt would be dumber than the Orange Blob touting ingesting bleach to kill Covid. And they don’t strike me as dumb.

There have been so many data breaches, combined with too many companies hoovering up every bit of data they can about their victims – oops, I meant, customers – that no foreign govt wishing to commit espionage, would waste time on a minor company like TikTok when they can grab their shiny bits of personal data off the Dark Web.

That One Guy (profile) says:

'Working together doesn't fit the narrative, so brute force it is'

From Petitioners’ perspective, all indications were that they were nearing a final agreement. After August 2022, however, CFIUS without explanation stopped engaging with Petitioners in meaningful discussions about the National Security Agreement. Petitioners repeatedly asked why discussions had ended and how they might be restarted, but they did not receive a substantive response. In March 2023, without providing any justification for why the draft National Security Agreement was inadequate, CFIUS insisted that ByteDance would be required to divest the U.S. TikTok business.

Talk about giving away the game and making clear that the entire debacle has been a political stunt/hitjob. TikTok was working with the government to address concerns and then out of nowhere the government cut all contact and ghosted them, until nearly a year later just flat out stating that the company had to be sold.

They didn’t want to work with the company, they wanted a political public punching bag and cooperation was antithetical to that so they dropped it.

bt says:

Yeah but. We should still kick them out.

Leaving the constitution aside (as we may do for convenience from time to time), we should absolutely kick TikTok out and we should not screw around about it.

China bans all US social media. We should do the same without apologies.

This is not a ‘constitutional’ issue, we can’t have one set of rules for USA companies in China and another set of rules for Chinese companies in the USA. Put another way, ban TikTok, it’s OK by China rules. The notion that the wonders of our democratic ways will somehow inspire China to do better is entirely discredited at this point.

It is a political issue – We are in strategic competition with China and it’s going to shape the future of the USA for the next decade or two. They are using our legal system against us here, and they are certainly laughing about it because they don’t need to other with such things. I’m not a anti-China crank – I think people should look clearly at the challenges ahead. Just wait until they invade Taiwan*, things will change fast.

*like Ukraine. Russia would never do that, it would be cRaZy if they did.

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That One Guy (profile) says:

Re: If you would throw your principles aside that easily you never had them

It’s both telling and disturbing how quickly some people are to dismiss any moral high ground or principles they might have held the second they find it inconvenient to hold them or or beneficial to throw them aside.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

What’s worse is that it isn’t even beneficial to us to crack down on Chinese companies.

People have this weird idea that the seller “wins” in a trade exchange. This is silly. Both sides win — that’s why they agree to the trade in the first place. If you go to Target and buy a t-shirt, Target hasn’t fiendishly taken advantage of you by refusing to purchase your garden vegetables in return. You wanted the t-shirt more than you wanted $15, and Target wanted $15 more than it wanted the t-shirt.

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Drew Wilson (user link) says:

I’ve long argued that a ban of TikTok has no shot at solving any of the problems its proponents have argued.

Argument 1: We must ban TikTok because there are issues with personal privacy.

Obvious response: Other platforms track people’s personal information. There has never been a a valid argument out there that says that TikTok is uniquely threatening to Americans.

Argument 2: We must ban TikTok because it represents a risk of foreign interference.

Obvious response: Nothing is stopping China from using Facebook or Xitter to continue their foreign interference operations even if we are to assume that TikTok is being used as a tool for Chinese foreign interference (to which there has been little to no evidence supporting this argument in the first place). Does the Cambridge Analytica scandal mean anything these days?

The only thing I see a TikTok ban solving is temporarily satisfying xenophobic tendencies with the knowledge that they are sticking it to “those people”. Beyond that, I don’t see anything that a TikTok ban really solves.

This isn’t even getting into the many layers of damage this unleashes on the US. Whether that is international credibility of being a supporter of democratic principles, the negative economic impacts of shedding hundreds of thousands of jobs and losing the tens of billions in economic activity, the slippery slope of if the US can just arbitrarily ban one company (what’s stopping it from banning anything it feels like on a Wednesday afternoon?), the added pressure of other democratic nations to follow suit (again, with a complete lack of evidence), the message it sends to other international companies thinking of setting up shop in the US, and numerous other angles I’m probably not thinking of at the moment.

If I were American, I would feel embarrassed to have to bear witness to this complete and total insanity of banning a company largely just for the hell of it.

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Arianity says:

Re:

Obvious response: Nothing is stopping China from using Facebook or Xitter to continue their foreign interference operations even if we are to assume that TikTok is being used as a tool for Chinese foreign interference (to which there has been little to no evidence supporting this argument in the first place).

It may be obvious, but it’s also an incomplete response, at best. Just because they can use one method doesn’t imply that a different (potential) method should go unaddressed. On top of that, the potential solutions are also different.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

And the same applies to Tiktok, Murdoch Simp.

And we’re not talking about the legal bribery known as “campaign contributions”, Murdoch Simp.

We’re talking about accepting money from RUSSIAN sources as American officials. To do what the RUSSIANS want. Like how Clarence Thomas accepted “expensive holidays” and other crap from people to “influence ongoing legal cases”.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:3

And the same applies to Tiktok, Murdoch Simp.

No, it doesn’t, as Mike’s post itself mentioned. There are different laws that apply to companies that are foreign owned. That’s literally why things like CFIUS exist in the first place.

We’re talking about accepting money from RUSSIAN sources as American officials. To do what the RUSSIANS want.

If you have proof of bribery, then yes, you could in fact prosecute them. I’m completely on board with it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

No, it doesn’t

No, I meant that 1A protections applies to Tiktok as well, MURDOCH SIMP.

Look, I believe Bytedance is a Chinese company, and even then they should not be targeted like this. After all, no Chinese company that big would expand into or headquarter in the US without Xi’s approval or are too small for Xi to care.

If you have proof of bribery

Of which there has been plenty and the ones that aren’t Trump or obvious enough to get caught have already been caught and prosecuted.

Unfortunately, said evidence also means any time a Republican does so much as BREATHE, they should be investigated due to the “unfortunate” fact they openly align themselves with Russia, especially concerning certain issues like Ukraine.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No, I meant that 1A protections applies to Tiktok as well, MURDOCH SIMP.

Some 1A protections apply to TikTok. They are not as full as domestic companies’ protections, as I already explained to you in the previous comment.

What you said was And the same applies to Tiktok,. This is not true. TikTok has some 1A protections, they are not as full as protections that domestic companies like Facebook get. ie, they are not actually the same. Again, this is literally why things like CFIUS apply to TikTok, and not Facebook, already.

And again, Mike’s article also explicitly talked about this.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

…And the CFIUS is sill using the fucking Constitution, Murdoch simp.

Tiktok still deserves the freedom of speech, association, and the fucking right to due process, and it appears they are pretending to follow that aspect of American law…

…up until Biden signed the fucking Bill of Attainder.

All I’m hearing from you is that double standards should apply because “China bad”.

Fuck you. I live in Southeast Asia. “China Bad” is literally at my fucking door AND I KNOW WHAT IT FUCKING MEANS.

No double standards. No Bills of Attainder. If Tiktok is hiding their affiliations with the CCP, let due process sort it out. If Tiktok is indeed a security threat, show the fucking evidence.

You’re not the one who has to live with an aggressive Chinese Merchant Marine fleet trying to start a naval war over control of the South China Sea, with possible first-strike NUKES involved.

The Xi Dynasty don’t fuck around and the evidence of a Chinese psyops/disinfo campaign would be so bloody obvious even a five year old could spot it.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:7

…And the CFIUS is sill using the fucking Constitution,

Yes, and it does so while having different standards for domestic vs foreign companies. Which means they’re not the same, as you originally claimed. And is exactly what I said the first time.

All I’m hearing from you is that double standards should apply because “China bad”.

That’s because you’re making up stuff that I’m not saying, instead of actually reading what I’m saying. If you’re going to “hear” things I’m not actually saying, that’s on you.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Just because they can use one method doesn’t imply that a different (potential) method should go unaddressed.

It actually does imply that. Laws are supposed to apply equally.

This is like passing a law saying “civil unrest is a problem. Therefore, Black Lives Matter is banned in the United States”. It would be obvious that the people behind that law aren’t concerned with civil unrest in general, but only with targeting a specific group.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:

It actually does imply that.

It implies that, if they’re actually equivalent. They’re not. And it’s very obvious that they’re not, because neither you nor the previous post bothered to give any justification for why they’re the same thing. And the reason you didn’t bother, is because it’s obviously not true.

Feel free to make an argument otherwise, but I very much doubt you will. There are some similarities, in a very broad “foreign influence via social media” sense, but there are plenty of relevant differences that make them distinct.

Laws are supposed to apply equally.

Laws apply equally to things that are the same. The law does not apply equally to different things. A great example being something like CFIUS itself, which isn’t controversial. There’s a reason it doesn’t apply to Facebook already, and no one cares.

This is like passing a law saying “civil unrest is a problem. Therefore, Black Lives Matter is banned in the United States”.

Except, it’s not. While the bill does name Tiktok, it actually lies out criteria of what companies it would apply to (which might actually end up hitting stuff like WeChat, by the way). You should read the actual law.

You can read the bill here: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/815/text#toc-H064C385070114C3A8DA14F68F7405CB0

The criteria is under the “covered company” section.

It would be obvious that the people behind that law aren’t concerned with civil unrest in general, but only with targeting a specific group.

There are definitely some people behind the law that are targeting Tiktok specifically. And they aren’t shy about it. That doesn’t mean that TikTok situation is comparable to Facebook. Those are two different things, and it is possible that (some) people are targeting TikTok specifically and that TikTok has important differences from companies like Facebook. They’re not mutually exclusive.

Anonymous Coward says:

I don’t recall substantial outcry when grindr was made to divest. I think everyone realized that it probably wasn’t a good idea for China to have easy access to a database of LGBT individuals. Malign intent and ability to interact are just not the same dimensions, and anyone pretending that China’s government has comparable or less malign intent when compared to the US is just kidding themselves. Are we just forgetting their tendency to disappear Chinese nationals on foreign soil? The concerns here we should have are very real. (Obviously, you know, I’d prefer robust privacy laws instead. And it’s not like the intent from our own government is great. But there’s a world of difference here that people are just ignoring, trying to suggest that this is all hypotheticals. It’s not.)

Arianity says:

Re: Re:

Nobody raised a fuss because that wasn’t forced.

It was a forced divestment request from CFIUS, although the investors didn’t fight the request. CFUIS “raised concerns” and asked them to sell, and Kunlun agreed to sell instead of fight it. Ironically, it happened right after they bought it, too.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:2

It’s pretty clear that one of those two words don’t mean what you think it does.

Perhaps this wording will be clearer:

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2352PL/

The panel, the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States (CFIUS), ordered Kunlun last year to divest Grindr amid concerns regarding the safety of the personal data it handles, such as users’ private messages and HIV status.

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/china-s-kunlun-tech-agrees-u-s-demand-sell-grindr-n1005386

China’s Kunlun Tech agrees to U.S. demand to sell Grindr gay dating app

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us-is-forcing-chinese-company-sell-gay-dating-app-grindr/

Why is the U.S. forcing a Chinese company to sell the gay dating app Grindr?

Last week, the U.S. government revealed it was demanding the Chinese owners of Grindr, the gay dating app, give up their control of the company.

I say ‘request’, because CFIUS didn’t have to enforce it. It warned the company, and the company went along with it. But it would’ve, if the company declined. Kunlun chose to go along with it (literally right after it bought it) rather than burn a bunch of money fighting it, but it has many of the exact same problems as this does. The only difference in the comparison is that it folded, instead of taking it to court. That doesn’t make it any less problematic, for the reasons people think this is problematic.

Mamba (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Force is certainly a word in the article, but that’s not what CFIUS can do. They are a voluntary program for business to have their transactions reviewed prior to execution, and afterwards can only make recommendations. The president would need to actually step in and order the divestiture.

But that’s all beside the point, CFIUS hasn’t identified and risks with TikTok like the (supposedly – it’s still classified) with Grindr.

Arianity says:

Re: Re: Re:4

That’s fair. And that’s a reasonable line to draw.

Although, some of Mike’s arguments specifically seem like they’d apply even if it hypothetically did identify risk. You can still buy the data, etc (and in Grindr’s case, people already have bought it and de-anonymized it, before). He’s not really pinning it on CFIUS finding/not finding anything. Although I guess you could also say it’s not really a 1A expression issue, either.

I think it’s going to be interesting to see if any CFIUS or Project Texas information comes out as a result of this. As far as I can tell, publicly not much is known about PT at all.

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Arianity says:

The complaint details more of the CFIUS negotiations, which had previously been mostly behind closed doors.

This is by far the most interesting part, for me. I’ve been very curious to know why Project Texas got killed. You don’t really see people talk about it anymore (on either side). It kind of just quietly got shelved.

To me, seems like it’s going to make or break the (strict or intermediate) scrutiny argument. I see 3 potential pitfalls for TikTok:

1) I think probably the most important, is that the Chinese branch accessed US user data on Oracle’s servers previously (link ). That seems like a huge threat to the argument of not being narrowly tailored enough.

2) Courts in general tend to give wide leeway to national security concerns. We’ve seen it in other areas like FISA. They really don’t like wading into those things.

3) It’s not clear that Project Texas would have solved the concerns over algorithm/influence. It did have some things that were meant to address it (Content moderation had to be housed in their US subsidiary, and Oracle could look at content source code, according to this Lawfare article), but it’s not clear to me that they would be sufficient, since the algorithm itself would still be black box. There was something about auditing the algorithm by a third party, but not sure if that would be sufficient.

I’ve seen some people saying that no argument will work because the conservative majority on the court will ignore anything in favor of “China bad!” but I’m not convinced of that.

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t know that we’re going to see the normal 6-3 split along partisan lines. I think we might be surprised, in either direction. I could see the liberal justices going along with a national security argument, and vice versa.

(Also, credit where credit is due: This is a very well written article)

Arianity says:

Re: Re:

Dont use buzzfeed as a citeable source.

Buzzfeed news is different than normal Buzzfeed (which is bad), and had done quite a lot of good reporting. It’s a decent source. Or was, until it got killed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuzzFeed_News

There’s a reason it won a Pulitzer, among other things. (Absolutely shit branding though, for exactly that reason. People associated it with regular Buzzfeed, and it never shook that reputation)

It’s also been covered on Techdirt before:
https://www.techdirt.com/2021/09/28/techdirt-podcast-episode-299-misinformation-about-disinformation/

https://www.techdirt.com/2022/10/11/justice-department-files-disgusting-attack-on-journalist-jason-leopold-for-being-good-at-his-job/

Bruce C. says:

The weird part is that Bytedance is largely under US ownership already though under Chinese management. Absent a hostile takeover by the Chinese government (similar to what congress is attempting), there’s not a lot of risk here. And a change in ownership wouldn’t automatically require a change in management or HQ unless the Chinese government drove them out.

To me this smacks of using the US government to force the Chinese to sell out the remaining shares that they own to US power brokers.

Arijirija says:

Ulterior motives?

Came across this.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/mitt-romney-tiktok
referencing this:
https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-at-mccain-institutes-2024-sedona-forum-keynote-conversation-with-senator-mitt-romney/
“SENATOR ROMNEY: A small parenthetical point, which is some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians relative to other social media sites, it’s overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts. So I’d note that’s of real interest, and the President will get the chance to make action in that regard.”
Or in other words, the peasants are revolting. The natives are restless. The great unwashed are bringing their dirty laundry in to get washed and are hanging our dirty laundry out!!! Fire! Flood! Famine! Disaster!

rahsa (user link) says:

Rahsa

The weird part is that Bytedance is largely under US ownership already though under Chinese management. Absent a hostile takeover by the Chinese government (similar to what congress is attempting), there’s not a lot of risk here. And a change in ownership wouldn’t automatically require a change in management or HQ unless the Chinese government drove them out.

referencing this:
stroke

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