We Can’t Have Serious Discussions About Section 230 If People Keep Misrepresenting It
from the that's-not-how-any-of-this-works dept
At the Supreme Court’s oral arguments about Florida and Texas’ social media content moderation laws, there was a fair bit of talk about Section 230. As we noted at the time, a few of the Justices (namely Clarence Thomas and Neil Gorsuch) seemed confused about Section 230 and also about what role (if any) it had regarding these laws.
The reality is that the only role for 230 is in preempting those laws. Section 230 has a preemption clause that basically says no state laws can go into effect that contradict Section 230 (in other words: no state laws that dictate how moderation must work). But that wasn’t what the discussion was about. The discussion was mostly about Thomas and Gorsuch’s confusion over 230 and thinking that the argument for Section 230 (that you’re not held liable for third party speech) contradicts the arguments laid out by NetChoice/CCIA in these cases, where they talked about the platforms’ own speech.
Gorsuch and Thomas were mixing up two separate things, as both the lawyers for the platforms and the US made clear. There are multiple kinds of speech at issue here. Section 230 does not hold platforms liable for third-party speech. But the issue with these laws was whether or not it constricted the platforms’ ability to express themselves in the way in which they moderated. That is, the editorial decisions that were being made expressing “this is what type of community we enable” are a form of public expression that the Florida & Texas laws seek to stifle.
That is separate from who is liable for individual speech.
But, as is the way of the world whenever it comes to discussions on Section 230, lots of people are going to get confused.
Today that person is Steven Brill, one of the founders of NewsGuard, a site that seeks to “rate” news organizations, including for their willingness to push misinformation. Brill publishes stories for NewsGuard on a Substack (!?!?) newsletter titled “Reality Check.” Unfortunately, Brill’s piece is chock full of misinformation regarding Section 230. Let’s do some correcting:
February marks the 28th anniversary of the passage of Section 230 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. Today, Section 230 is notorious for giving social media platforms exemptions from all liability for pretty much anything their platforms post online. But in February of 1996, this three-paragraph section of a massive telecommunications bill aimed at modernizing regulations related to the nascent cable television and cellular phone industries was an afterthought. Not a word was written about it in mainstream news reports covering the passage of the overall bill.
The article originally claimed it was the 48th anniversary, though it was later corrected (without a correction notice — which is something Newsguard checks on when rating the trustworthiness of publications). That’s not that big a deal, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with “stealth” corrections for typos and minor errors like that.
But this sentence is just flat out wrong: “Section 230 is notorious for giving social media platforms exemptions from all liability for pretty much anything their platforms post online.” It’s just not true. Section 230 gives limited exemptions from some forms of liability for third party content that they had no role in creating. That’s quite different than what Brill claims. His formulation suggests they’re not liable for anything they, themselves, put online. That’s false.
Section 230 is all about putting the liability on whichever party created the violation under the law. If a website is just hosting the content, but someone else created the content, the liability should go to the creator of the content, not the host.
Courts have had no problem finding liability on social media platforms for things they themselves post online. We have a string of such cases, covering Roommates, Amazon, HomeAway, InternetBrands, Snap and more. In every one of those cases (contrary to Brill’s claims), the courts have found that Section 230 does not protect things these platforms post online.
Brill gets a lot more wrong. He discusses the Prodigy and CompuServe cases and then says this (though he gives too much credit to CompuServe’s lack of moderation being the reason why the court ruled that way):
That’s why those who introduced Section 230 called it the “Protection for Good Samaritans” Act. However, nothing in Section 230 required screening for harmful content, only that those who did screen and, importantly, those who did not screen would be equally immune. And, as we now know, when social media replaced these dial-up services and opened its platforms to billions of people who did not have to pay to post anything, their executives and engineers became anything but good Samaritans. Instead of using the protection of Section 230 to exercise editorial discretion, they used it to be immune from liability when their algorithms deliberately steered people to inflammatory conspiracy theories, misinformation, state-sponsored disinformation, and other harmful content. As then-Federal Communications Commission Chairman Reed Hundt told me 25 years later, “We saw the internet as a way to break up the dominance of the big networks, newspapers, and magazines who we thought had the capacity to manipulate public opinion. We never dreamed that Section 230 would be a protection mechanism for a new group of manipulators — the social media companies with their algorithms. Those companies didn’t exist then.”
This is both wrong and misleading. First of all, nothing in Section 230 could “require” screening for harmful content, because both the First and Fourth Amendments would forbid that. So the complaint that it did not require such screening is not just misplaced, it’s silly.
We’ve gone over this multiple times. Pre-230, the understanding was that, under the First Amendment, liability of a distributor was dependent on whether or not the distributor had clear knowledge of the violative nature of the content. As the court in Smith v. California made clear, it would make no sense to hold someone liable without knowledge:
For if the bookseller is criminally liable without knowledge of the contents, and the ordinance fulfills its purpose, he will tend to restrict the books he sells to those he has inspected; and thus the State will have imposed a restriction upon the distribution of constitutionally protected as well as obscene literature.
That’s the First Amendment problem. But, we can take that a step further as well. If the state now requires scanning, you have a Fourth Amendment problem. Specifically, as soon as the government makes scanning mandatory, none of the content found during such scanning can ever be admissible in court, because no warrant was issued upon probable cause. As we again described a couple years ago:
The Fourth Amendment prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures by the government. Like the rest of the Bill of Rights, the Fourth Amendment doesn’t apply to private entities—except where the private entity gets treated like a government actor in certain circumstances. Here’s how that happens: The government may not make a private actor do a search the government could not lawfully do itself. (Otherwise, the Fourth Amendment wouldn’t mean much, because the government could just do an end-run around it by dragooning private citizens.) When a private entity conducts a search because the government wants it to, not primarily on its own initiative, then the otherwise-private entity becomes an agent of the government with respect to the search. (This is a simplistic summary of “government agent” jurisprudence; for details, see the Kosseff paper.) And government searches typically require a warrant to be reasonable. Without one, whatever evidence the search turns up can be suppressed in court under the so-called exclusionary rule because it was obtained unconstitutionally. If that evidence led to additional evidence, that’ll be excluded too, because it’s “the fruit of the poisonous tree.”
All of that seems kinda important?
Yet Brill rushes headlong on the assumption that 230 could have and should have required mandatory scanning for “harmful” content.
Also, most harmful content remains entirely protected by the First Amendment, making this idea even more ridiculous. There would be no liability for it.
Brill seems especially confused about how 230 and the First Amendment work together, suggesting (incorrectly) that 230 gives them some sort of extra editorial benefit that it does not convey:
With Section 230 in place, the platforms will not only have a First Amendment right to edit, but also have the right to do the kind of slipshod editing — or even the deliberate algorithmic promotion of harmful content — that has done so much to destabilize the world.
Again, this is incorrect on multiple levels. The First Amendment gives them the right to edit. It also gives them the right to slipshod editing. And the right to promote harmful content via algorithms. That has nothing to do with Section 230.
The idea that “algorithmic promotion of harmful content… has done so much to destabilize the world” is a myth that has mostly been debunked. Some early algorithms weren’t great, but most have gotten much better over time. There’s little to no supporting evidence that “algorithms” have been particularly harmful over the long run.
Indeed, what we’ve seen is that while there were some bad algorithms a decade or so ago, pressure from the market has pushed the companies to improve. Users, advertisers, the media, have all pressured the companies to improve their algorithms and it seems to work.
Either way, those algorithms still have nothing to do with Section 230. The First Amendment lets companies use algorithms to recommend things, because algorithms are, themselves, expressions of opinion (“we think you would like this thing more than the next thing”) and nothing in there would trigger legal liability even if you dropped Section 230 altogether.
It’s a best (or worst) of both worlds, enjoyed by no other media companies.
This is simply false. Outright false. EVERY company that has a website that allows third-party content is protected by Section 230 for that third-party content. No company is protected for first-party content, online or off.
For example, last year, Fox News was held liable to the tune of $787 million for defaming Dominion Voting Systems by putting on guests meant to pander to its audience by claiming voter fraud in the 2020 election. The social media platforms’ algorithms performed the same audience-pleasing editing with the same or worse defamatory claims. But their executives and shareholders were protected by Section 230.
Except… that’s not how any of this works, even without Section 230. Fox News was held liable because the content was produced by Fox News. All of the depositions and transcripts were… Fox News executives and staff. Because they created the defamatory content.
The social media apps didn’t create the content.
This is the right outcome. The blame should always go to the party who violated the law in creating the content.
And Fox News is equally as protected by Section 230 if there is defamation created by someone else but posted in a comment to a Fox News story (something that seems likely to happen frequently).
This whole column is misleading in the extreme, and simply wrong at other points. NewsGuard shouldn’t be publishing misinformation itself given that the company claims it’s promoting accuracy in news and pushing back against misinformation.
Filed Under: 1st amendment, 4th amendment, content moderation, section 230, steven brill
Companies: newsguard


Comments on “We Can’t Have Serious Discussions About Section 230 If People Keep Misrepresenting It”
Confusion is literally the point. No sane person wants this, and the only way the assholes can push it through is by literally lying about what it contains, covers and how it will be used.
This is the place that Republicans have brought us.
The land of horse shit, obvious lies with straight faces, and stances on issues that wouldn’t make sense to anyone with a working brain.
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Sadly, at the end of the day, there’s only one way to defend 1A.
We will have to Roof Korean it.
We Can’t Have Serious Discussions About Section 230 If People Keep Misrepresenting It
I don’t know anything about the yahoo you’re talking about. But most people don’t want a serious discussion about section 230. Most of them have already figured out that that’s a losing proposition.
Those people just want to create so much smoke and confusion around the issue, that at some point they can burn it down without anybody noticing.
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Original Intent Can Still Be Seen
This is somewhat disingenuous, in that Section 230 is being used to achieve blanket editorial immunity. Particularly, (c)(2)(A) and its “otherwise objectionable” phrase is the basis for social media to restrict anything they want. It is not. It was originally designed to allow “Protection for “Good Samaritan” blocking and screening of offensive material”, and contains those words verbatim right there at (c). It was designed to permit websites to block porn and vulgarity, not to shield themselves from viewpoints with which they disagree.
(c)(2)(A) does not provide blanket editorial immunity, and so state laws are not inconsistent with the language of Section 230 with regards to allowing ordinary political opinion.
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We get it, you hate free speech Koby.
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You’re correct that (c)(2)(A) does not grant blanket editorial immunity.
What you miss, is that basically every court has said that (c)(1) DOES grant such blanket editorial immunity.
So you are looking at the wrong part of the law, which seems to be the root of your confusion.
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Correct, it doesn’t. So why do you keep misrepresenting that it does?
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And you aren’t in militia. Please turn in your guns you nazi.
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Fuck off, Communist. I’m in an antigovernment militia.
Re: Re:
So your a nazi and a anti American terrorist.
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Re: Re: Re:
You’re deranged. I’m a pro-American patriot and a Christian supremacist, not a “nazi,” you fucking pinko scum.
Re: Re: Re:2
You’re just a self-entitled, grand mal asshole who your Jesus would never stop slapping if he appeared today.
Now take your Christo-fascist horse shit and shove it somewhere warm and moist, clown.
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Re: Re: Re:3
You’re just a self-entitled, ableist asshole who your Jesus would never stop slapping if he appeared today.
Re: Re: Re:4
Agreed. Jesus helped people with epilepsy, he didn’t hurt them by labelling others’ bad actions with features of the condition.
Re: Re: Re:2
A Christian supremacist? So something completely against the teachings of Jesus. Just lol. You are just a racist and nazi using a religion you don’t follow to justify your actions. You aren’t any different than the taliban.
As for being a patriot. Yes you are a nazi. You know the whole nationalist part of nazi Germany is what you call patriotism. It’s also what China and north Korea follow.
Re: Re: Re:2
I’m a pro-American patriot and a Christian supremacist
Christian supremacist? What the fuck does that mean? A sheep who follows an impotent god, but is really confident about it?
Re: Re: Re:2
I’m more of a HHGTTG Supremacist myself. Then again, I tend to prefer sci-fi over fantasy in general.
Re: Re: Re:2
These two things do not go together very well. I’m a Christian and an American patriot myself, but a key part of America is freedom of thought and religion, and another is the separation of church and state. Religious supremacy is kinda antithetical to that.
Re: Re: Re:3
Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down there buddy.
We can’t have hateful terms like that around here.
Re: Re:
So, a MAGAT.
Tip: MAGAT = Nazi.
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Re: Re: Re:
Cry harder, communist.
After former President Trump is returned to office in November, and inaugurated in January, you and your kind will be targeted in the first wave of repression!
Re: Re: Re:2
nah clown
Re: Re: Re:2
says the nazi lowlife scum who thinks the leopards won’t eat there face
Re: Re: Re:2
flag this nazi scum until it is hidden
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The site owner’s entire schtick is misrepresenting important issues based on his and his underlings’ politics.
To wit: his shameful claims that the U.S. government did not censor disfavored political speech online, and the ongoing campaign of anti-police hate speech and disinformation produced by one of his most anti-social bloggers.
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Please do tell where tech dirt has lied about any cop related matter.
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As I’ve said previously, there are literally tens of millions of wholesome, problem free interactions between police at every level and citizens across the entire country every year.
The TD underling I refer to is obsessed with finding one or two examples per week out of tens of millions annually where police might’ve made mistakes or not done the best work possible. He then presents them as if they’re evidence of some widespread problem.
This is disinformation in service of the false narrative that police and bad.
There is no systemic bias in policing in the US. There is no culture of exploitation and abuse. The vast majority of interactions between law enforcement and civilians are lawful and kind and do Lady Justice proud.
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So in other words you have your ass so far up your head that you treat decades of cop behavior as one off instances that do not show a trend.
For fucks sake. No, there are not one to two things a week , there are one to two things this site reports on. You can easily find dozens of similar stories being reported, being recorded. But you aren’t interested in facts that disagree with you.
What you don’t find is cops being actual punished for their behavior, or any of these so called “good” cops calling for cleaning out the garbage.
As for system abuse. You can find cops using the same tactics to abuse asset forfieture in nearly every state. That’s one example. The issue of not seeing systemic bias and systemic issues is your denial of facts.
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This is a bizarre post. Yes, there are millions of interactions between citizens and police. And, yes, most of them aren’t problematic. However, some of them are, enough that we should be concerned because they are often criminal, and the police get away under “qualified immunity.” I’ve had an officer lie to a judge about an incident I was involved in, I could prove he lied, and the judge nonetheless accepted the lie. I am quite willing to be responsible for my own behavior, but I’m not willing to be punished when I’m innocent and a person I should be able to trust intentionally lies!
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Re: Re: Re:2
While I lament the injustice you believe you suffered, an anecdote is not evidence of a systemic issue.
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… does an injustice need to be systemic before you would take steps to diminish it?
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That’s what the other 20,000 similar issues do.
Re: Re: Re:3
“Better that a hundred guilty men go free than one innocent man be punished.”
-Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Re: Re:4
Better that one innocent man be liquidated than 99 thugs/illegal immigrants be released back onto the streets by Soros-funded DAs.
Re: Re: Re:5
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
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flag this nazi lowlife scum
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Even if we assume this is true, it doesn’t support the conclusion you’re drawing.
Thanks for the case study in lying with (pseudo) statistics.
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“There are tens of millions of cases of dog bites man that you never report on, only to focus on the cases of man bites dog.”
Dude, do you even know what news is?
Re: Re: Re:2 BREAKING: Airplane lands safely without incident
Note: fill in later. Yet ANOTHER set of employees survived their drive home, so I have to go write an article about each of them first.
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You’re describing when cops do their jobs as expected. That’s what they’re supposed to do. When they don’t do what they’re supposed to do, when they commit crimes, murder people, destroy or steal property, etc. it is newsworthy.
If one of your loved ones was murdered and in the trial of the suspected murderer, his lawyer provided the defense of “my client didn’t murder the thousands of people he interacted with last year, except for one,” would you want the jury to accept that excuse and rule him not guilty?
We’re not talking about a retail employee who accidentally charges you twice for the same product when he screws up. We’re talking about people entrusted with the authority to decide when to end the lives of others under the color of law. “With great power comes great responsibility” and it should be accompanied by the greatest scrutiny and oversight.
It’s impossible to back this claim with an evidence, so it’s able to be ignored completely. You’re not a witness to every police stop across the country. That you would make such a blanket claim that is clearly unsupportable indicates your obvious bias.
There is, however, a large amount of evidence that there are systemic biases in policing and a significant number of injustices. There’s a large body of academic work on various related subject matters. But you’re not going to seek out any information that contradicts your bias.
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And yet when the blogger in question for this site digs up some obscure instance of law enforcement not having done the absolute best that the most awesome and well-trained human could’ve done under the most difficult circumstances imaginable, he – with the approval of the site owner – presents it as if that single anecdote is evidence of a systemic issue in policing. It’s Trump-esque DISINFORMATION.
Re: Re: Re:3
…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re: Re: Re:3
Why are you pretending that all the stories posted about shitty law enforcement exist independently of each other?
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Re: Re: Re:4
Why do you so gleefully participate in the spreading of anti-police hate speech?
Re: Re: Re:5
why are you a clown 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Re: Re: Re:5
Calling out shitty behaviour in law enforcement is hate speech now?
Whatever you need to tell yourself to stay a bootlicker, I guess.
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It’s quite funny that there are relatively few police abuse articles coming from, oh, let’s say, Europe, the only other continent with a similar amount of police.
Or Australia. I hear more about police INCOMPETENCE than abuse.
Maybe, just maybe, that the problem lies with the American police force?
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If these mythical cops you are talking about exists, why don’t we ever hear them complain and criticize the shitty cops talked about in these “obscure instances of law enforcement not having done the absolute best”??
If they are supposed to be “the most awesome and well-trained humans” shouldn’t they make sure that all their collogues also adhere to that standard?
And if they are so awesome, why do they need QI?
I think you are a little piggy that can’t stand people who point out all your flaws that you refuse to acknowledge.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Slurs and hate speech. You subversives can’t help yourselves!
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..is not what anybody literate would claim, BDAC.
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You are a little piggy because you lack all the properties that would make you an honest, hardworking, well-educated, awesome and professional cop.
Re: Re: Re:5
You strike me as the type to defend catholic priests.
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You’re right about one thing, BDAC.
Calling you a piggie is a slur. For the pig.
You’re the slur. Pigs deserve better than to be associated with a deranged liar, copyright maximalist and insurrectionist scum.
Same for the cops. Comparing the police to actual pigs should be considered a slur to the pigs too.
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It isn’t disinformation to report the facts of when cops commit crimes, commit murder, commit theft, etc.
These instances are numerous and not obscure. And the recordings we’ve seen show that A) these aren’t well-trained humans B) some of them are trigger happy and spiteful C) the circumstances aren’t always that difficult. You’re making blanket statements across multiple scenarios that we can witness with our own eyes and ears.
The funniest part of your bias is that you’re making cops look bad by insisting that every story about police committing injustices must be accompanied by a disclaimer stating, “but other cops elsewhere didn’t do this bad thing we’re talking about, so it’s perfectly fine!”
That you think the police need to be defended against “hate speech” that is actually just the public utilizing its First Amendment rights of free speech and government redress is saying that cops are fragile weaklings who need to be coddled from legitimate criticism in order to continue to purport to do their jobs while too often committing injustices.
How about instead of you bootlicking in the comments here, you actually call for police accountability to reduce the instances of injustice committed by cops so we won’t be able to point them out and criticize them. How about you blame the people committing the injustice instead of the messengers?
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No they’re not.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unarmed_African_Americans_killed_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_misconduct#United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_in_the_United_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_law_enforcement_officers_convicted_for_an_on-duty_killing_in_the_United_States
Re: Re: Re:4
Let’s say you are right. And only 1-2 things happen nationwide every week. Do you not see a giant red flag that none of the other cops condemn that behavior? That it is never punished by police stations, or judges?
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Re: Re: Re:5
Of course I don’t see a giant red flag that hundreds of thousands of hardworking men & women don’t let themselves be distracted (on behalf of communists, btw) by vanishingly rare instances of professional underachievement in their field that have nothing to do with them or their departments or their communities.
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And if similar behaviour were observed among right-wing politicians? You still wouldn’t care?
Re: Re: Re:6
At least you admit your blindness to reality.
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“professional underachievement”
The word you are looking for is criminal.
Cops look the other way when other cops commit crimes.
The sad and pathetic thing here is that you refuse to do any research on the topic. There are dozens of DOJ reports going back decades citing systemic behavior.
The Kansas two step is something that the entire Kansas highway patrol has been caught doing, repeatedly.
You can literally just search youtube to find video, after video, of cops across the country arresting people for video taping them.
You can look back at the opposition to transparency laws and see it is consistent across states.
So I’m going to assume at this point you are a brain dead moron who cannot read and you flunked out of high school given your inability to find basic facts.
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Why you keep blaming everything on communists is beyond me. No one here supports communism. Do you even know what communism is?
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Okay, General Ripper. Make sure they aren’t snapping your precious bodily fluids.
The Cold War is long over. The number of actual communists in the US is so small as to make it more rare than your false perception of how often cops commit crimes.
That you utilize a century old red scare boogey man indicates how paranoid and irrational you are and shows how quickly your assertions should be rejected.
Re: Re: Re:3
Let’s say you
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Dude, that’s the whole point of news: reporting on things that aren’t everyday. If you don’t like that, stay off news sites completely and don’t buy physical newspapers because they all do this.
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Lol the last time I bought a “physical newspaper” was about six years ago because the Sunday supplement had a really lucrative coupon for BOGO Browning Hi-Power pistols from a local military surplus warehouse.
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Probably. So what? Not stating the obvious isn’t disinformation.
First, comparing incidents per week to the annual total is disingenuous.
Second, several of those incidents were far beyond “mistakes” or “not the best work possible”. You’re downplaying very serious events.
Third, not every incident gets reported on here.
Because they are. Specifically, the lack of accountability. You are free to disagree, but that’s ultimately down to opinion.
None of this is disinformation.
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…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
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The evidence we currently have simply doesn’t demonstrate that to be the case. The same goes for Trump, so it’s not really a matter of whose views are allegedly being censored or whether or not I like those views. I just have not seen evidence that sufficiently supports that claim under current 1A jurisprudence.
I have yet to see any anti-police disinformation on this blog (I haven’t even seen anyone claim that any of the articles on police are actually false; just complaining about it without actually refuting it), and anti-police hate speech is not a thing.
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Oh, yes, we do. It’s even been proven in court, no less.
Between this and the recent WIRED article which told basically the same lie about Section 230, I have to wonder if Steven Brill is merely a fan of Jaron Lanier or Allison Stanger, or if this is part of some coordinated misinformation campaign.
All of which are intentional. This is not confusion. These people are lying liars.
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Stop misrepresenting 230
Go read the senate report on section 230, where they directly call the companies common carriers, and where they explicitly claim that they didn’t want to immunize “cancel-botting”.
Now read the statute, and the statute says that wanted the maximum USER control over what the USER sees on the internet, and the platforms are required to help users bring their own filtering software.
Now go back to the 1996 telecommunications act, and see that the entire “Electronic publisher” definition excludes all of these social media companies.
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Why Jay, I didn’t know you were a believer of the “Usenet cabal” bullshit.
Cancel botting IS a form of moderation, which would be legal under 230, and used to cancel spam.
And yes, Mike DOES know Ron Wyden. And yet, I have not heard of Wyden saying he was misrepresented here, of all places.
Meanwhile, you, the revenge porn man, have been misrepresenting Mike and 1A by not reading what was signed into law.
You are indeed scum, like all your white supremacist buddies.
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It’s telling you don’t have a single source that supports your illiterate delusions.
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Please provide a link to this report.
The date of that report might be instructive as well, given that labeling interactive computer services as common carriers was not (so far as I remember) part of the discussion at the time.
And please remember the term “Interactive Computer Services”. Not ISPs. Not Social Media Companies. Things have changed just a little since 1996, and the things senators are pontificating about today are different.
And why yes, I have gone back and read the statute.
You are referring to the policy section:
Which is indeed one of their goals. However, please note that everywhere else in § 230, Users are given equal immunities and protections as providers. And hey, today, they can be the same thing (qv retweeting).
… that… is not in § 230, express or implied. Please cite your sources and authorities.
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He has, you can find the document here.
Read it and weep how some people can’t understand that a senate report can contain multiple sections. The document is mostly about telecommunications, broadcast and cable with some sections touching on the internet plus the 230 final draft.
He thinks the whole document is about section 230 which is why he is rambling about companies being common carriers just because it was mentioned in the other sections.
Matty did the same, neither of them has any reading comprehension worth a damn.
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A report is not the law.. Lol
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You first.
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The Senate report is on the much larger telecommunications act. 230 is only mentioned in passing, and does not say what you claim it says regarding 230.
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He’s talking about some other piece of proposed telecommunications legislation discussed in that report that also happened to be labeled “section 230”:
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No, “cancelbotting” is it actually talks about section 230. Look under section 509 – Online family empowerment,
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Lets try again without clicking post by mistake.
No, “cancelbotting” is actually mentioned together with section 230. Look under section 509 – Online family empowerment.
The problem with his argument is that it’s a mish-mash put together from different parts talking about different industries. The report only mentions “common carriers” in sections not relating to section 230, ie in the sections about cable, broadcast and telephone.
It kind of gets even more silly, the paragraph about “cancelbotting” and section 230 reads in full:
The conferees do not intend, however, that these protections from civil liability apply to so-called cancelbotting, in which recipients of a message respond by deleting the message from the computer systems of others without the consent of the originator or without having the right to do so.
It’s a reference to how some people nefariously tried to delete messages on other peoples Usenet-servers, so if one server-owner did that to other servers that server-owner would loose protection against liability that section 230 (c) (2) normally confers for moderation.
TL;DR: The whole argument is ludicrous since it’s built on things yanked out of context that are then mashed together into an incoherent mess.
Seems that Mike nailed the title on this article.
Re: Re: Re:3
And cancelbotting is… actually an early form of moderation.
Which makes Jay’s stupid argument even more stupid.
Re: Re: Re:4
No, it’s not moderation. It would have been moderation if someone just deleted a message on their own server, but not if they try to delete the message on others peoples servers too.
Re: Re: Re:3
You are correct about this.
However, the report also says:
which describes what we know now as Section 230. But there is also:
Which is what I was trying to point out: There appear to be two different Section 230s referenced in the report.
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Re: Re:
It’s still relevant as to determining intention when writing 230.
If you want to throw it away cuz the comments refer to the whole thing, not 230, then you are actually making (without realizing it) an anti-severability argument, that 230 should have been thrown out with the rest of it.
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First of all, it’s usually the GOP justices (Scalia, Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch) who are vocal that the legislative history has no bearing on the meaning of the law, so I’m glad to see you admit otherwise.
But, actually, here, it has ZERO bearing on it, because they’re not talking about 230 at all. 230 (what was originally the “Internet Freedom and Family Empowerment Act”) was added to the CDA (which Wyden/Cox had intended IFFEA to be an alternative to) and then the entire CDA (most of which was later thrown out as unconstitutional) was added to the larger Telecommunications Act of 96.
The conference report is specific about which parts of the law they’re talking about, and the parts Ben keeps citing are not about 230 at all, and are specific to the other parts of the law and have no bearing on the parts about interactive computer services.
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Re: Re: Re:2
You seem to be making a ham fisted comparison of originalism with textualism, which are not at all at odds (all the modern conservative Justices talk about being both) and perhaps getting the latter confused with strict constructionism.
But lol, no, intent sure as hell matters, to all of them. Just not “hidden or secret” intent which is actually just a fig leaf for a “living constitution” which just means “it can say whatever I want it to say”.
In short: documented intent is best intent. Such as documents like this.
Maybe, I don’t actually really have a dog is this particular round of the fight but I’m not sure I buy the fact the that it’s all so cleanly separable. Moreover (and it’s probably too late now, since 230 would have had to be replaced with something else) this is just furthering the idea that 230 shoulda been tossed with the rest of it.
Re: Re: Re:3
Well acc
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matt the clown 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Re: Re: Re:3
I mean, Scalia regularly mocked such claims.
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/public-policy-journal/blog/a-former-congressional-staffers-plea-to-judges-do-not-rely-on-legislative-history/
So, again, I’m glad to see you agree with the more liberal justices on this point.
Yes, legislative history matters.
But, here, the legislative history that is being discussed was not about 230 so, no, it does not matter. The only part that does matter is discussing the law in question. And here it does not say what you and Ben are pretending it says.
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You are not smart enough to understand half the stuff Scalia said.
Again, you seem to be getting Originalism and Textualism confused, and Scalia was both, as is basically all the others.
Incorrect, the liberal justices believe in a “living constitution” which is unmitigated bullshit.
You are seriously trying to make a form judicial moral equivalence, and as with most things by you, either shows how little you understand, or is conscious gaslight.
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There literally isn’t a definition of “electronic publisher” in the Telecommunications Act of 1996. The term is used a few times but never defined and it’s only used in reference to telephone services. It does talk about electronic publishing a fair bit, but only in reference to “Bell operating companies” which are specifically identified telephone service companies of the time. But the places where that is mentioned is not about or relating to section 230.
You’re pretending that terms from other sections are relevant to 230. 230 provides protection to providers and users of “an interactive computer service,” which does covers social media companies.
For your assertions to be true, only old phone companies could be protected under 230. But we have Ron Wyden’s own words to prove you wrong:
https://www.wyden.senate.gov/news/press-releases/wyden-remarks-at-section-230-briefing-hosted-by-eff
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“Publisher” was in fact a well defined (primarily common law) term. It meant like a newspaper, or magazine, but not like a bookstore (which would be a distributor) and they had different liabilities. “Electronic” is presumably just that but online (like the NYT website).
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So you are making up legal terms
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Yeah, go ahead and pivot instead of admitting that you made up a lie about the term being defined in the statute. When it’s been proven that you don’t know what you’re talking about, saying more doesn’t fix the issue. It just means everything you say becomes suspect.
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What are you smoking, you absolute idiot? It didn’t need to be defined by the statute but it may as well havwe been. The term was well defined at the time it was written.
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Weren’t you just giving someone else crap about them saying the term “user” was defined in Section 230 when it isn’t? And now when you get called out on doing the exact same thing with “electronic publisher” you deflect instead of owning the mistake?
Hypocrisy, thy name is Matthew M Bennett.
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Re: Re: Re:2
“User” doesn’t even appear, let alone defined.
But where you idjits getting the idea I said “electronic publisher” was defined?
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I’m honest enough to admit my error. It wasn’t you that said it was defined, it was Barber. My mistake.
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thank you
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The issue is that the definition for a term that doesn’t appear in §230 and that is given in a completely different section of the Telecommunications Act before CDA was tacked onto it has zero relevance to anything in §230, specifically.
Also, newspaper publishers don’t have much more liability than bookstores when it comes to letters to the editor.
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Although they should where publication isn’t controlled by the letter writer.
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Which particular part?
Nothing about common carriers elsewhere in the text. Are you engaging in deliberate misrepresentation of what you read, or are you actually this obtuse?
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Which doesn’t mean they are. Also, if you ask the authors, they say quite differently.
I don’t recall that even being a thing, so I have no clue what you’re talking about here.
The statute also explains how it will accomplish that: by letting companies try out different ideas for moderation (or choose not to moderate) and let users decide which they prefer. Whether or not you agree with the methods currently in use, this was the intended outcome, like it or not.
I… don’t recall that appearing anywhere in §230. There is a requirement to inform users about the filtering options available and immunizing platforms for liability over the filters used by users, but nothing about helping users bring their own filtering software. Which section is that?
Of course, even assuming you’re correct, none of this conflicts with anything the bloggers on this site have said about §230. Such a requirement is entirely compatible with also allowing the platforms’ owners to moderate as they wish and with platforms also publishing content.
The term “electronic publisher” appears nowhere in §230, and “electronic publisher” is clearly narrower than “publisher”, so it tells us precisely nothing about the term “publisher” (or “provider”, “interactive computer service”, “publish”, “create [content]”, or “develop [content]”) as it is (they are) used in that specific statute, at least not in such a way as to exclude. I could accept your claim as true, and it would say nothing about whether or not social media companies are publishers for 1A or §230 purposes or which functions are immunized by §230.
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Also, the mention of “common carriers” is about a completely different part of the law, not §230, and was specifically about companies like Bell Telephone (and ISPs), not the providers of ICSs which are at issue in §230. The mention of “cancel-botting” was specifically about removing content from another person’s server than one’s own.
Basically, you’re quoting the reports out of context.
If it were at all possible to say Section 230 was bad without lying, then why hasn’t that ever once happened?
Re:
Because he insurrectionist scum hate 1A and by extension, America.
Not qUITE.
“We Can’t Have Serious Discussions About Section 230 If People Keep Misrepresenting It”
Or not reading it.
Lying about it.
Listening to OTHERS about what it is.
It was the idea of WHAT newspapers WERE supposed to be, but not really. And didnt happen to the fullest extent.
Having a full, interactive, intercommunication of democracy and “What the human condition” really is.
Insted of hiding everything Humans ARE, we now get to see the Underside of it, that was hidden, and they WANT hidden.
AND as with that, we get to see the Full confusion of democracy. And hte Liers, cheats, Thieves.
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Am I confused about 230? No, it is the legal scholars who are wrong!
Seriously, who knows the law better, MM, Silicon Valley conman, or Supreme Court Justices? Then for bonus points, you spent MOST of your article attacking Random Internet Guy as a stand in, and even HIM you manage to quote out of context.
I have to be brief cuz of your dim “spam” filter.
You trying to present “Creator” as if it is separate from “editor” and it is not. You also used “Distributor” casually, interchangeably with “Publisher” and it’s no such thing.
Prior to the internet, common law definitions, Publishers (newspapers) and Distributors (a bookstore) BOTH sold other people’s content. Publisher’s had very strict liability for that content and Distributors didn’t. Why? Because newspapers had editorial control over that content and bookstores didn’t. This matters. Editorial control makes it 1st party/creator.
Section 230 specifically sets out that platform shall not be considered the Publisher of 3rd party content…and even allows for very limited and specific types of editing that will not void that. Not ANY editing. Sufficient editing can make the platform the defacto owner/creator. Where that line lays is the subject of much argument.
What if FB ONLY allowed posts that said Biden was a KKK member? All of FB would be saying he was a grand wizard. That would pretty clearly be defamatory. That would be a choice FACEBOOK made, even if users wrote the content.
Gorsuch is not confused about this you are. And you’re emotionally unprepared to admit it.
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Have you considered not acting like a bot?
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Your entire attitude on this issue in a nutshell. It’s rare to see you be this lucid.
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Is it Matthew, who has never once ever comprehended any subject no matter how simple who is confused about 230? No, it’s the expert with decades of experience, every single court that ever ruled on it, and the law’s own authors who are wrong!
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Well, of course! The original authors are much too invested in the issue, so they can’t be impartial! Matt the Brat is the only one who can handle it objectively!
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I have to be brief cuz of your dim “spam” filter.
Write like spam, get treated like spam.
Dumbass.
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Or maybe it’s that you are using multiple ips and connections and try and write multi comments.
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Gorsuch is not confused about this you are.
If only there was a way you could tell them that instead of posting it here, where it’ll inevitably be flagged as the spam that it is.
I fail to understand why all these great minds aren’t listening to you, given your prominence on this site as the village idiot. It should count for something shouldn’t it buddy?
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“Editing” and “editorial control” are not the same thing.
You are correct that EDITING 3rd party content would make it 1st party content because you have now participated in the creation of the content.
However, exerting editorial control, like deleting the post entirely, would NOT make it 1st party content.
Best Western International, Inc. v. Furber disagrees.
“BWI claims that the homepage impliedly suggests that visitors should make statements defaming BWI. The Court does not agree. But even if this were true, it is insufficient to strip Furber of CDA immunity”
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However, deleting the post entirely would NOT be exerting editorial control, but moderation, an entirely different thing.
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Then you need to define EXACTLY what actions you’re referring to when you say “editorial control.”
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No, that’s still editorial control. Moderation is simply a form of editorial control.
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I assume Gorsuch knows the law much better overall. But on Section 230, it’s an issue he has not been briefed on, while I’ve spent 25 plus years working on it. On this narrow issue, I understand this law better than he does.
This is just fundamentally wrong. Publisher had more liability than distributors, but not “strict” liability. There are tons of cases that say so.
The most famous, a case when an encyclopedia of mushrooms declared a mushroom safe to eat, even as it was poisonous. The court declared that the publisher did not have strict liability and sided with the defendant (the publisher) and did so easily.
https://casetext.com/case/winter-v-gp-putnams-sons
And some other cases that reject strict liability on the publisher.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=3469314648426327651&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
“This court concludes that the theory of action grounded upon strict tort liability is not applicable to the current situation.”
http://www.tomwbell.com/NetLaw/Ch04/Daniel.html
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=13762806077532938062&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=9763891147732569010&hl=en&as_sdt=2,33&as_vis=1
https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1862460561348509554&hl=en&as_sdt=2,33&as_vis=1
https://openjurist.org/814/f2d/1017/herceg-v-hustler-magazine-inc
It sets out two separate provisions (c)(1) and (c)(2). You are reading only (c)(2)(a) while missing two separate points. (c)(2)(a) includes any editing for items found “otherwise objectionable,” which the courts have (rightly) said is up to the platform itself to decide, giving them broad leeway for editorial discretion.
Second, and more importantly, multiple courts (many more than have even looked at (c)(2) have argued that (c)(1) grants extremely broad immunity for any editorial discretion.
Again, you can say that EVERY SINGLE COURT has misread the law. You can say that the law should be changed. Or that the Supreme Court “should” interpret Section 230 differently such that only (c)(2) grants editorial discretion.
But the problem for you is that tons and tons of courts before you have already said that (c)(1) (not (c)(2)) grants broad editorial discretion.
That’s a problem for you that you refuse to acknowledge, either because you’re ignorant or because you’re intellectually dishonest. Maybe a little of both.
Again, not a SINGLE court to date has agreed with you on that. You could point to a single citation if one did. Problem is, none do.
The law would say that the users who post that content would be liable, not Facebook.
You would understand this if you weren’t so invested in your incorrect belief.
Projection, Matty. Pure projection.
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He’s been “briefed” on it. He has almost certainly taken classes on it. At Harvard. You have not.
Hey, remember how you spent like a year pretending the fed gov DIDN’T violate the 1A by proxy, and in fact claiming everyone saying it did (including many judges) was stupid? I’ve noticed you’ve toned that down recently, probably realizing that just…everyone basically knows you were wrong (really, lying), but cuz you’re a conman you’ve refused to issue any sort of mea culpa. And that is about how much I value your “25 years experience”. It’s negative, not a positive. You are not a good faith actor.
Bwahahaha. Here’s where I gotta laugh at you. “Strict liability” is indeed a legal term, “very strict liability” is just common english, and I was making no such precise claim. If I had said “strict liability” I suppose you coulda had a good gotcha there, refuting something I wasn’t really saying, but I didn’t.
You’re not a lawyer Mesnick, stop trying. The relevant bit there is that “Publisher” is a defined term outside of 230 and it involves editorial control. And yes, it entails very strong (“very strict”, hah) liability, very nearly the same as the author himself.
This is in reference to obscenity and similar (gore, maybe). It is not a catch-all term. If it was meant to be a catch all term, they could have just written “for whatever and any purpose”. Congress did not write that.
Yeah, they almost certainly should not have done that. (see above) It is absolutely within SCOTUS’s ability, purview, and in fact responsibility to correct that.
In fact, SCOTUS is not under the obligation to “understand” 230 the same way you do. They are in fact free to decide those previous precedents are bunk. (they are)
AGAIN, several did, all in the early days, and I showed them to you and you misread them on purpose. And then yes, later, as you said, several court decisions basically said “Social media can do whatever the F it wants!” and that was obviously wrong, yet became precedent.
Meaning FB could fiter ALL of humanity, so that one particular message shown through “BIden is a KKK grand wizard”, quite on purpose. (It’s not true, but Biden DID eulogize two KKK members, so actually not THAT far off) The breath of the messages means through selection they could basically “say” whatever they wanted, without ever being liable.
Well my paycheck doesn’t depend on it like yours does, which makes it easier to keep emotionally detached. On the other hand I care about civil liberties and you don’t, apparently, which makes it harder.
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What are you even talking about? What class at Harvard is there on Section 230? I mean, Gorsuch went to Harvard Law, but before Section 230 existed? I’m not even sure what you think you’re saying here, but it makes no sense.
Because they didn’t. I explained my reasoning quite clearly. I’m sorry you’re so wedded to a made up narrative from a guy who fell for out and out Russian propaganda that you can’t let it go, but hey, fucker, that’s on you.
You literally claimed that publisher liability was strict liability. It’s not. Don’t use fucking legal terms in a discussion about how the law works in a discussion where you are calling out specific legal issues regarding what kind of liability, and then pretend that you only meant the “common english” definitions when it’s blatantly obvious to EVERYONE reading this that you were pretending to understand the law when you didn’t.
No. You directly claimed that publisher liability was “very strict liability,” and I gave you a ton of cases that prove you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, whereas I can actually cite cases and YOU NEVER DO.
Because none supports your argument.
Again, Matt, it would be perfectly legitimate if you said “here’s how I think the law should be” or “here’s how I think they should change the law” or even “here’s the way I wish the law was interpreted.”
But you never do that.
Your problem is that you confidently show up here, as an ignorant buffoon, and declare “this IS how the law works” and you get it 100% backwards. And then everyone here explains to you why you’re wrong, and your responses is “nuh uh, you stupid.”
That’s not how it works.
You claim the law says something that NO ONE ELSE AGREES with and that includes tons of courts.
Is it possible that some day courts may come around to your interpretation? Sure. Pigs could fly. But, you should admit that they do not agree with you today. And then people might take you seriously.
And, it’s hilarious, all of those cases I cited show that, no it’s not “very nearly the same as the author himself.” It’s extremely different. Like extraordinarily so.
I can’t believe I thought maybe, just once, me giving you a bunch of cases that prove you wrong might get you to fucking admit that you got something wrong.
But, I forgot: you’re too much of a dipshit.
Again, EVERY SINGLE COURT has said otherwise. Again, you’re saying what you want the law to be, not what it is. I’m not saying what I want it to be. I’m saying what every court has said.
I never said it’s not within SCOTUS’s ability and purview to change it, but it’s hilarious that now you’re saying they need to change it ADMITTING that this IS NOT how the law is viewed today.
SCOTUS can absolutely change how the law is interpreted. I readily admit that. But for months you’ve been pretending that the law is settled in the way you want it to be and, if that was the case, you wouldn’t need SCOTUS to change anything.
At least admit that what you’re asking for is a new interpretation of the law? Can you be that marginally honest? For once?
No. Dude. I know the case law. You don’t. There has NEVER not once been a court that agrees with your interpretation. If there was, it would be a big deal. And, if “several did, all in the early days” as you claim (even though none did, ever), then you could point to them. And, if it was in the early days, the fact that no court recognizes your interpretation today means that those courts would have been overruled and their precedent no longer good law.
If it were true that the later cases became precedent, that would mean that these mythical courts that agreed with you had their rulings overturned and were no longer good law. It didn’t happen, but at least thank you for admitting that you KNOW that what you claim is the modern interpretation of the law IS NOT THE LAW.
Yes, in that ridiculous scenario that would never exist, that is correct.
No. I think we all know you’re just an idiot who is so stupid he doesn’t know how wrong he is.
I’m sorry Matt. You’re one dumb fuck.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Yeah, you’re right, Gorsuch went to Harvard Law before 230 existed. He still went to harvard law and you did not. He is still a legal expert, and you are not. You are not even an expert on section 230. You are actually legally barred from claiming that you are. That’s hilarious, now that I think about it.
Whelp, here’s where I truly stop taking you seriously. I thought you had sheepishly realized you ffed up. But nope! You’re just the drunk guy at the party who pooped his pants and wants to pretend no one noticed.
Gonna disagree on “clearly” but yes that’s the whole problem.
Wait, wut, “Russia, Russia, Russia!”? Is this just like reflexive with shitlibs? There’s documentation all over the place. Courts have ruled against you. (Concurred even! They only disagreed on the remedy.) SCOTUS is basically guaranteed to rule against to you. You literally lied, just a week or two ago, about an email timeline to pretend Amazon banned books over Buzzfeed (RIP, hah) rather than the White House. That’s how desperate you are.
It is obvious to everyone that this happened. The set of people pretending this didn’t happen has a 100% overlap with people who think Bill Clinton “did not have sex with that woman.”
I did not. I’m sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor. But man, you were VERY excited to follow that tangent, right?
Not a thing, in a legal sense, and no, I did not, not even when you say it a second time. Your inability to read (really looks more like purposefully misreading) is not an argument. “Strict liability” (which I didn’t bring up) doesn’t even have anything to do with the argument I was making. That Publishers have more liability than Distributors does, but you agree that that is true. So why are you wasting everyone’s time on it? Are you literally trying to manufacture something to be right about?
You literally devote whole articles to “debunking” people who agree with me on this, including, apparently, supreme court justices.
Except it doesn’t say that. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
To be clear, none of the cases you cited had anything to do with anything. They were in response to a question no one asked, an error on my part you imagined because you were really excited to think that I might have misspoke.
Well THAT’s not true. It’s different, but only slightly. Publisher is treated as the 1st person/creator. Again, not that this actually has anything to do with anything. It’s a tangent you made up.
You have offered no evidence that is true. You did cite seven (7!) irrelevant cases in response to something you misread tho.
You actually got your grammar muddled there, but at what point did I suggest to you I thought modern courts had interrupted 230 correctly? Obviously, it is quite the opposite, I think many cases have just straight up ignored the law as written.
You really don’t read good, huh?
Well, except for that time several different SM platforms banned any dissent from government orthodoxy on covid policy (at CDC or WH urging no less, hey, you lied about such a case just last week!), or gender ideology, or that thing, or that other time.
230 was clearly not meant to allow such. That either needs to be recognized by the courts or amended by congress. It’s not even a wish, that WILL happen, the current situation isn’t sustainable.
I applaud your willful lack of imagination tho.
Con men get REAL offended when you point out the snake oils is, y’know.
Hey, say for the record “I am an expert on section 230 law”. I wanna get a screenshot.
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This has the most projection I’ve seen from any right wing nut.
Re: Re: Re:3
Strong in this one the projection is. Hilarious that is.
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Strong in this one the projection is.
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I guess we’ve found the reason for your throwing a shit fit every time you’re called out, then.
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You’re in no positions to throw around accusations, preschool flunkout.
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Yes. But you claimed Gorsuch took a class on 230 at Harvard law, which is impossible, because the law didn’t exist when he was there.
And, yes, you can be an expert on a law without having a law degree. Again, it was less than a year ago that a judicial conference asked me to explain 230 to all the judges in the conference. So if they think I’m allowed to do that, and that I’m worth having teach about 230, I’m going to assume that their take on what is legal for me to do or say is more relevant than some internet troll who has shown an allergy to understanding the law.
Matty, everyone here can scroll up and see that you claimed publisher liability was strict liability.
I realize you now recognize that you fucked up big time, and I called you on it, but you can’t pretend “nuh uh, no I did not” when you very much said this right above: “Prior to the internet, common law definitions, Publishers (newspapers) and Distributors (a bookstore) BOTH sold other people’s content. Publisher’s had very strict liability for that content and Distributors didn’t.”
You literally said that. I showed you a bunch of cases (just the first ones I could dig up, there are so many more) that said, no, publishers do not have strict liability, so now you’re pretending you didn’t say what you absolutely said.
Just take the L man. Admit you misspoke.
Yes, I debunk people. That’s part of my job. My question to you was CAN YOU FIND A SINGLE CASE THAT AGREES WITH YOU. You cannot. If the judges rule in a different way, then I will admit what the law now is, today. That’s the difference between you and me, Matt. I’m happy to admit what the law is today and how that might differ from how I wish the law was.
You, on the other hand, keep insisting that the law today says something that EVERY SINGLE COURT has said you’re wrong on. And, yes, it’s true that some idiots agree with you, but not a single judge who has ruled on a court has said that.
And, yes, Gorsuch said some things during oral args, but NO ONE BRIEFED ON 230 because the Supreme Court had said at the beginning of this case that THEY WEREN’T TAKING UP THE 230 issue this time. So it’s not even a live issue. So Gorsuch’s musings are misinformed, because he wasn’t briefed on it. If the issues comes back officially we’ll see what he says.
In the meantime, both Clement and Preloger did a good job explaining why Gorsuch was wrong.
I cited 7 cases that were directly on point for the very wrong claim you made.
You have insisted that courts have agreed with your interpretation of 230. Repeatedly. But thank you for NOW admitting that you were full of shit then. Thanks.
I think we’re done here.
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You are not allowed to claim such.
You never offered any evidence that this occurred. I’m sure it was not anything like what you suggest.
Only if you read very poorly…..arguably on purpose, cuz that’s the kinda thing you would do.
I literally did not. Your purposeful misreading is not an argument. It also has nothing to do with the argument at hand you fuucking idiot.
You CLAIM to.
I have, I don’t feel obligated to do so again.
Lol, you stupid fuuck, you mean no one briefed him that week? Get lost.
The problem with you (and probably why you could never be a lawyer) is that you don’t read so good. I said later courts ignored early precedent. They didn’t OVERTURN THEM (that’s different), they ignored them.
Your participation has entirely consisted of you purposefully misreading things.
But go ahead, say “I am an expert on 230” law.
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Says you? The expert of nothing? Go read Fed. R. Evid. 702.
Funny how a simple search finds references to this judicial conference. It would be particularly stupid to claim something that is patently false, something you should be intimately familiar with.
Re: Re: Re:3
Oof, that’s pathetic Matty, even for you. It literally sounds like a butthurt teenager.
That definitely explains the para above.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Go defend holocaust deniers.
Re: Re: Re:5
You can do that without telling yourself to, you know. Just don’t expect many commenters here to join you.
Re: Re: Re:3
The thing is that a single legal expert who hasn’t studied, briefed on, or been briefed on §230 is not much more of an expert on §230 than a layperson. Moreover, Mike is quoting actual legal experts who have studied or been briefed on §230, almost all of which disagree with you and Gorsuch on §230. You’re conflating citing multiple experts to refute a claim made by a less-informed-on-this-issue expert with claiming to be an expert oneself.
I have no earthly idea where you could have possibly gotten that idea given that he repeatedly pushes back against that claim any time it come up. But then again, you sure love to come up with fanciful interpretations with exactly zero basis in reality.
That was before any discovery was conducted, so this was based solely on the pleadings. Moreover, other courts have said the opposite; there is currently a circuit split on this issue.
Except that, even assuming you weren’t talking about the legal sense of “strict liability” (btw, I am unaware of a non-legal use for that term at all; “stricter liability” might have been better), they still go against what you said afterwards.
You have stated that most legal experts agree with you. The multiple courts that say otherwise is good evidence you are wrong. You have presented no evidence that you are correct on what the consensus among legal scholars is.
Also, this is obvious hypocrisy on your part. You are claiming to know more about §230 than virtually every court that has ruled on it, the authors, and multiple other legal experts despite not being a legal expert yourself. How is that any different from what you’re accusing Masnick of doing?
No, just banning lying (or being wrong) about the science (at least as it was understood at the time by experts) for the first. (Notably, they were the ones who sought out the CDC for help determining what was or wasn’t misinformation, not the CDC seeking out Facebook to demand they remove misinformation first.) On top of that, people saying they wouldn’t get vaccinated because they don’t trust the government (without making the more objectively false claims) generally did not get moderated against for saying so, nor were people who spoke out against vaccine mandates, so it wasn’t just one viewpoint being presented on the issue.
The rest is about banning opinions. Being a member of the KKK is a factual claim that can be objectively proven true or false. How you prefer to refer to transgender people is an opinion. What you think about the treatments they get is also an opinion.
More importantly, none of that excludes literally everything except a specific message. It only excludes certain messages about specific topics. That is very different from the scenario you posed, where literally no content that doesn’t specifically include a specific claim—even if it’s unrelated to that topic—is allowed. Your proposed example is simply nothing like the real-life scenarios you mentioned or anything else that has ever happened.
The authors have specifically said that they did, and that they have zero issues with the results. I would tend to think that they would know more about what the law that they wrote was meant to allow than you or I would. Everything we have on the legislative history fully supports this as well. (The so-called “evidence” provided against that is all taken out of context or had nothing to do with §230 in the first place.)
You can say it’s not a wish, but you’re ignoring the fact that another option (even if you’re right that it’s not sustainable) is a slow collapse because of an inability to actually do anything. The courts could (and likely will) decide you’re wrong about what §230 as it is currently written actually says and does, and it’s not their job to rewrite the law to make the situation more sustainable (since that’s not within their powers). The legislature could be (and likely is) too dysfunctional to amend the law. If both of those end up being the case, it really doesn’t matter whether or not the current situation is sustainable; the law and its interpretation will remain untouched in this very plausible scenario.
The courts ruling in your favor is particularly unlikely given that even lawyers who oppose §230 or who are wrong about it generally don’t agree with your take, either, and the SC can’t make rulings on issues not before them. Once again, sustainability is entirely irrelevant here.
Of course, I fail to see how it is unsustainable like you suggest. Whether or not it’s desirable, it certainly appears to function just fine as is, and I see no evidence that it will eventually lead to some sort of complete failure of something to function at all, which is what it means for something to be unsustainable.
No one here is offended by you on this issue, so I fail to see the relevance. Pointing out that you don’t know what you’re talking about or are simply wrong is not evidence that one is offended.
No, he’s just saying what the actual experts on §230 law have to say.
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Re: Re: Re:4
MR. Bari Weiss
So this is funny, cuz legally, he cannot claim to be an expert on law, any law. Also he has no fuucjing idea whether Gorsuch has been “briefed” or how much he thinks or has studied 230, he’s just shooting stuff out his butt.
I”m going to ignore the rest, never worth the read.
Re: Re: Re:5
Yes, I know what Gorsuch has been briefed on because SUPREME COURT DOCKETS (the only way to brief Justices) are PUBLIC.
Did you… not know that?
Re: Re: Re:5
It gets even funnier, every time you are this fucking cocksure about something you are always wrong. So I’ll once again repeat this: Fed. R. Evid. 702, go look it up.
Clown.
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Re: Re: Re:2
Hey man, after I laughed at you about them, you clearly shifted some levers on the spam filter (maybe just purged some training sets?), I appreciate that. It allows MUCH longer posts now.
Now, say “I am an expert on CDA section 230 law”, for the record. Can you give legal advice?
Re: Re: Re:3
… Lol. You still have no idea how spam filters work
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Re: Re: Re:4
They can work a 1000x different ways, depending on how they’re programmed. (I do actually code, in my day job, not a security guy tho)
This one seems to work like it’s 2005, the last time TD was relevant, like the rest of the site.
Re: Re: Re:5
I’m sure you do. I bet you program react.
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Re: Re: Re:6
I think you’re trying to be funny. I can fiddle with JavaScript ok but not a web guy or anything so no, never touched react. Also, eww, Meta.
Re: Re: Re:7
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Re: Re: Re:7
I’m calling you an ignorant noob who can’t program because you have shown zero tech knowledge
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Re: Re: Re:8
And you did? What gonna do a bubble sort for me?
Fuuck off.
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Re: Re: Re:9
Heh, yup, even tho he changed the settings filter still delays “Fuuck” but with only one U.
See, testing.
Re: Re: Re:10
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Re: Re: Re:10
and now we flagged your comment so now it will learn you did that
Re: Re: Re:10
matt who loses to a fucking spam filter get’s trolled twice and gets told there wrong on a daily basis yup clown energy 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Re: Re: Re:10
and i doubt you are a coder cuase even coders aren’t this stupid
Re: Re: Re:9
Oh! You can Google tech terms when you want to.
And here I thought you were too stupid to Google things before speaking.
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Re: Re: Re:10
I think you googled google, that’s how dumb you are.
Re: Re: Re:11
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡 is insults all you got?
Re: Re: Re:11
Strong in this one the projection is, mmm.
Re: Re: Re:11
That’s all you got?
I love how every time you have a chance to show you aren’t a complete idiot you just go full on dumb and dumber.
Re: Re: Re:10
Actually, I’m not stupid enough to Google anything. I use a search engine more respectful of privacy.
Re: Re: Re:9
Who would want to do a bubble sort? It’s not even the most intuitive sorting method, though it is still pretty simple to code, and it’s one of the slowest ones out there that wasn’t deliberately designed to be slow. Why even bother with it?
Re: Re: Re:10
Bratty Matty likely does not even know how to do a basic “Hello World” in fucking MATLAB.
Let alone know what a bubble sort is.
Re: Re: Re:5
This one seems to work like it’s 2005, the last time TD was relevant, like the rest of the site.
Stating that you’re getting tripped up by a 2005-era spam filter for a site you state is irrelevant isn’t a good look for you, dumbass.
What do you ‘code’ with? Commodore-BASIC?
Re: Re: Re:6
You are assuming Matt the Insurretionist Shithead actually does code.
He’s trying to dodge responsibility for his harassment.
Re: Re: Re:5
Ah, the “this site isn’t relevant” fallback for when facts aren’t anywhere near your side.
Do you hard of thinking people ever consider that when you attack a site as being unpopular and irrelevant, you’re just admitting that by your own standards you’re wasting your time by obsessively commenting? Literally, if you’r correct about your claims, you’re just saying you are deliberately doing nothing of any importance?
Re: Re: Re:5
So you admit that you are at best a mediocre programmer?
Because if you were a good programmer you would actually understand how a spam-filter functions seen from a black-box perspective. Every spam-filter uses some variation of input -> filter -> output -> flagged output for training hit/miss -> filter.
How the filter actually works internally isn’t very relevant because the thing you seem to miss is that posts getting flagged here on the forum are sent to the filter as training data, just like how posts that end up in the moderation queue by mistake is sent back as false positives.
Every spam-filter works like that or in a similar fashion, you don’t even seem to know that most spam-filters are just a feedback-loop tells everyone here that your knowledge of programming and CS is just enough for you to scrape by.
Even worse, you think “security” doesn’t touch on you as a programmer. Are you stuck in 90’s? Don’t know what lifecycle management is? Don’t regularly see if your code is affected by CVE’s?
My guess is that you are stuck in some dead-end job having a boss riding herd on you because of your mediocrity and you don’t understand why.
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Re: Re: Re:6
Shut up, nerd.
Re: Re: Re:7
That’s the best you could come up with?
No wonder you are stuck in a dead end job.
Re: Re: Re:3
Literally nothing has changed in the spam filter. Not one thing.
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Re: Re: Re:4
Not only do I not believe you, I don’t even think you’d know.
But it clearly changed. (primarily allowing much longer responses)
Re: Re: Re:5
I do know and nothing has changed. Also, it has never taken length of post into account.
But, it truly is hilarious to me to watch you flail around proving just how stupid you are.
Re: Re: Re:
Going to university means spending upwards of tens of thousands of dollars to study the law in an environment dedicated to that (and other educational) purpose, whereas independent research means spending internet access fees to study law in the comfort of your own home. Basically, not going to university doesn’t automatically mean someone knows less about the law, it just means they have a fatter wallet after four years.
Re: Re: Re:2
And it also gives you access to Harvard’s time machine, which is how Gorsuch took those classes on S230 as Matty explained. Worth every penny.
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Re: Re: Re:3
You do realize every profession engages in continuing education, right?
Re: Re: Re:4
And based on how much it’s working out for people in the current economy, the value of further education is not particularly worth the cost.
Re:
So what’s to prevent MM knowing the law just as well as Supreme Court justices are supposed to, or Alito, Thomas, et al. from deliberately not understanding the parts they don’t like?
NewsGuard
Thanks for calling this out, Mike. I’ve since cancelled my NewsGuard subscription.
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The site owner is a coward who sends replies to his own posts to moderation rather than permit them to appear immediately.
Re:
I guess you’re as clueless as bratty Matty when it comes to spam filters.
Re:
…hallucinated nobody mentally competent, ever.
Re:
Ah yes. I’m sure he has taken the time to go and manually configure a spam filter he likely doesn’t have full control over just to do that.
Re:
You insurrectionist scum are all the same.
It’s not anyone’s fault if you keep shitting in the spam filter but yours.
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Mike Masnick sucks dick.
Let’s see if this gets through the spam filter.
Re:
Well, it did. It shouldn’t have IMO (it’s crude and has literally zero value), but it did.
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Re: Re:
It probably did with like a 24 hr delay, hard to tell when he originally posted. But it DEFINITElY filters “Meesnick”
Re: Re: Re:
“429 Too many requests” errors are a thing that users experience. Even those who aren’t frantically dreaming up crass insults about Masnick. I know, I’ve encountered them. Even when there’s been days in between posts.
And frankly, I don’t lose my mind over it. But then I’m not a Republican.
Re:
Matty Bratty the Genius doesn’t understand how a spam-filter works.
Have a flag, that’ll teach that darn spam-filter.