Publishing A Book Means No Longer Having Control Over How Others Feel About It, Or How They’re Inspired By It. And That Includes AI.

from the we-need-to-learn-to-let-go dept

There’s no way to write this article without some people yelling angrily at me, so I’m just going to highlight that point up front: many, many people are going to disagree with this article, and I’m going to get called all sorts of names. I actually avoided commenting on this topic because I wasn’t sure it was worth the hassle. But I do think it’s important to discuss and I’ve now had two separate conversations with authors saying they agree with my stance on this, but are afraid of saying so publicly.

I completely understand why some authors are extremely upset about finding out that their works were used to train AI. It feels wrong. It feels exploitive. (I do not understand their lawsuits, because I think they’re very much confused about how copyright law works. )

But, to me, many of the complaints about this amount to a similar discussion to ones we’ve had in the past, regarding concerns about if works were released without copyright, what would happen if someone “bad” reused them. This sort of thought experiment is silly, because once a work is released and enters the messy real world, it’s entirely possible for things to happen that the original creator disagrees with or hates. Someone can interpret the work in ridiculous ways. Or it can inspire bad people to do bad things. Or any of a long list of other possibilities.

The original author has the right to speak up about the bad things, or to denounce the bad people, but the simple fact is that once you’ve released a work into the world, the original author no longer has control over how that work is used and interpreted by the world. Releasing a work into the world is an act of losing control over that work and what others can do in response to it. Or how or why others are inspired by it.

But, when it comes to the AI fights, many are insisting that they want to do exactly that around AI, and much of this came to a head recently when The Atlantic released a tool that allowed anyone to search to see which authors were included in the Books3 dataset (one of multiple collections of books that have been used to train AI). This lead to a lot of people (both authors and non-authors) screaming about the evils of AI, and about how wrong it was that such books were included.

But, again, that’s the nature of releasing a work to the public. People read it. Machines might also read it. And they might use what they learn in that work to do something else. And you might like that and you might not, but it’s not really your call.

That’s why I was happy to see Ian Bogost publish an article explaining why he’s happy that his books were found in Books3, saying what those two other authors I spoke to wouldn’t say publicly. Ian is getting screamed at all over social media for this article, with most of it apparently based on the title and not on the substance. But it’s worth reading.

Whether or not Meta’s behavior amounts to infringement is a matter for the courts to decide. Permission is a different matter. One of the facts (and pleasures) of authorship is that one’s work will be used in unpredictable ways. The philosopher Jacques Derrida liked to talk about “dissemination,” which I take to mean that, like a plant releasing its seed, an author separates from their published work. Their readers (or viewers, or listeners) not only can but must make sense of that work in different contexts. A retiree cracks a Haruki Murakami novel recommended by a grandchild. A high-school kid skims Shakespeare for a class. My mother’s tree trimmer reads my book on play at her suggestion. A lack of permission underlies all of these uses, as it underlies influence in general: When successful, art exceeds its creator’s plans.

But internet culture recasts permission as a moral right. Many authors are online, and they can tell you if and when you’re wrong about their work. Also online are swarms of fans who will evangelize their received ideas of what a book, a movie, or an album really means and snuff out the “wrong” accounts. The Books3 imbroglio reflects the same impulse to believe that some interpretations of a work are out of bounds.

Perhaps Meta is an unappealing reader. Perhaps chopping prose into tokens is not how I would like to be read. But then, who am I to say what my work is good for, how it might benefit someone—even a near-trillion-dollar company? To bemoan this one unexpected use for my writing is to undermine all of the other unexpected uses for it. Speaking as a writer, that makes me feel bad.

More importantly, Bogost notes that the entire point of Books3 originally was to make sure that AI wasn’t just controlled by corporate juggernauts:

The Books3 database was itself uploaded in resistance to the corporate juggernauts. The person who first posted the repository has described it as the only way for open-source, grassroots AI projects to compete with huge commercial enterprises. He was trying to return some control of the future to ordinary people, including book authors. In the meantime, Meta contends that the next generation of its AI model—which may or may not still include Books3 in its training data—is “free for research and commercial use,” a statement that demands scrutiny but also complicates this saga. So does the fact that hours after The Atlantic published a search tool for Books3, one writer distributed a link that allows you to access the feature without subscribing to this magazine. In other words: a free way for people to be outraged about people getting writers’ work for free.

I’m not sure what I make of all this, as a citizen of the future no less than as a book author. Theft is an original sin of the internet. Sometimes we call it piracy (when software is uploaded to USENET, or books to Books3); other times it’s seen as innovation (when Google processed and indexed the entire internet without permission) or even liberation. AI merely iterates this ambiguity. I’m having trouble drawing any novel or definitive conclusions about the Books3 story based on the day-old knowledge that some of my writing, along with trillions more chunks of words from, perhaps, Amazon reviews and Reddit grouses, have made their way into an AI training set.

I get that it feels bad that your works are being used in ways you disapprove of, but that is the nature of releasing something into the world. And the underlying point of the Books3 database is to spread access to information to everyone. And that’s a good thing that should be supported, in the nature of folks like Aaron Swartz.

It’s the same reason why, even as lots of news sites are proactively blocking AI scanning bots, I’m actually hoping that more of them will scan and use Techdirt’s words to do more and to be better. The more information shared, the more we can do with it, and that’s a good thing.

I understand the underlying concerns, but that’s just part of what happens when you release a work to the world. Part of releasing something into the world is coming to terms with the fact that you no longer own how people will read it or be inspired by it, or what lessons they will take from it.

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Comments on “Publishing A Book Means No Longer Having Control Over How Others Feel About It, Or How They’re Inspired By It. And That Includes AI.”

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Anonymous Coward says:

While creators feel that their works are their children, they should also remember that when children go out into the world they live their own lives. That is you nurture and guide them into become independent of you, and maybe they then go off in ways you do not understand.

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Anonymous Coward says:

I completely agree with this

It seems to me the whole purpose of publishing your work is to make it available to the world to consume. Whether it’s a textbook or a romance novel, you want people to read it and talk about it.

If you love something, let it go…

jimz (profile) says:

Re:

Goes for everything one puts out onto the world, doesn’t it, including these comments (7:30am meta alert!) I’ve tried to put into the public domain as much code I’ve written as possible for the reason that I know that it’s entirely likely that I don’t even know the different ways my code can be used and the best way it could be used, transformed, and adapted in ways I can never imagine on my own.

I hope that authors or anyone who creates original works for public dissemination would realize that they are not writing dogma, and they are not creating religious texts but rather, works that by their nature cannot be treated as some holy text but rather, foundations upon which others will build upon or refute or transform or mash-up or sample as they see fit. No man is an island whether in their knowledge, the context of their writing, and the manner and view they espouse which then goes into the works they write. In that sense and in a way that certainly most writers would understand to some degree, I think T.S. Eliot was prescient (as others have noted in the 100 years hence) when he wrote, in regards to the notion of tradition, that

No poet, no artist of any art, has his complete meaning alone. His significance, his appreciation is the appreciation of his relation to the dead poets and artists. You cannot value him alone; you must set him, for contrast and comparison, among the dead. I mean this as a principle of aesthetic, not merely historical, criticism. The necessity that he shall conform, that he shall cohere, is not onesided; what happens when a new work of art is created is something that happens simultaneously to all the works of art which preceded it. The existing monuments form an ideal order among themselves, which is modified by the introduction of the new (the really new) work of art among them. The existing order is complete before the new work arrives; for order to persist after the supervention of novelty, the whole existing order must be, if ever so slightly, altered; and so the relations, proportions, values of each work of art toward the whole are readjusted; and this is conformity between the old and the new.

The realization that the future transformation of how a work is interpreted will also have an inherent impact on how the original work is read and understood is recognized by Eliot who was keenly aware of the fact that even his works would and be read in ways that he did not intend and had little power to stop it. His copious but frequently cheeky and sometimes tongue-in-cheek ur-trolling in his footnotes are indicators of his ambivalent attitudes towards dogmatic interpretations. He then proceeds to talk about how it’s less about each individual who works with this aggregated knowledge and experience but the quality of the aggregated knowledge itself that matters far more.

Honest criticism and sensitive appreciation are directed not upon the poet but upon the poetry. If we attend to the confused cries of the newspaper critics and the susurrus of popular repetition that follows, we shall hear the names of poets in great numbers; if we seek not Blue-book knowledge but the enjoyment of poetry, and ask for a poem, we shall seldom find it. I have tried to point out the importance of the relation of the poem to other poems by other authors, and suggested the conception of poetry as a living whole of all the poetry that has ever been written. The other aspect of this Impersonal theory of poetry is the relation of the poem to its author.

I think this indirectly outlined the ethos upon which hip-hop and open source software development was built and cannot exist without the basic notion that it’s less about you but the work itself. I don’t think Eliot himself could possibly see how his essay on literary criticism would be read as such, but it demonstrates the point, I think. The critiques of this essay seems to lean heavily on the notion that the writer must be depersonalized in his passing of said tradition when writing, but it ignores that the writer’s depersonalization is inherently a sort of self-depersonalization, and may be better read as one cannot and should not intentionally make what can only be the accumulated experience and knowledge into a canonical, definitive culmination of the inspirations that leads to an immutable work.

(Also, with great irony I feel compelled to point out that ‘Eurocentricity’ critique of the essay was written very much with a distinct ‘white man’s burden’ tone, as if those of us who did not learn English as a first language and were educated, partially or fully, in traditions that had no direct contact with the western canon, need someone to white knight for us when in truth, I’ve viewed that the over-reliance on the western white-knight mentality undergirds the dogma upon which the CCP and its historiography is constructed. I’m no longer in academia and when I left this was not fleshed out fully yet but by this point it should be clear that even the need to distinguish “socialism” with “socialism with Chinese characteristics” is both an endorsement of the transformative nature of idea and thought as aggregation and a rejection that western white-knighting is necessary and the most essentialist notion is also something inherently foreign in the context. It’s not something that I can even say in China, but the mountains are tall and the emperor is Winnie the Pooh.

Anonymous Coward says:

The problem is that being an author pays a few people a tremendous amount of money, while most people who write for a living can’t really live on what they make. That’s the primary problem. I don’t know how to fix that. Copyright does a poor job at it, but there really isn’t anything else so it’s no surprise that many writers and other creatives latch onto it as the only way they can survive.

mick says:

Re:

most people who write for a living can’t really live on what they make

It was never the intention of copyright to allow people to “live on what they make.” Copyright was just to incentivize creation. It demonstrably does that just fine, because more people are writing and publishing books today (both overall and per capita) than at any time in history.

Clearly there’s no “problem” with the system, as far as incentivization goes.

cpt kangarooski says:

Re: Re:

I would say it is to incentivize creation and publication. And bear in mind, it’s not the only incentive and often not even the biggest.

If there is a problem it is that we offer people copyrights as an incentive when they’re unnecessary because the authors were already incentivized enough without copyright.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Copyright never incentivized creation, as the publishers, labels and studios only ever accepted a tiny fraction of the created works offered to them. Its was created by publishers, with the spin of creating an authors right, as a means to replace the old copyright for regulating the printing industry. Also, if you think money is the primary reason for creating things, you have not been very observant of what you see on the Internet.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Anybody who latches onto copyright as a means of making a living are missing the real source of their income, and that is fans who will support them regardless of copyright, or whether the work is available for free. Copyright was designed as a means to give publishers control over the production of physical copies, where they had to print many copies in the hope that they could sell most of them, and where pirate copies could leave them with a pile of unsold books. Until recent times print on demand was not possible, and print runs in the thousands to tens of thousands was the way copies had to be made. That also applied to Vinyl, CDs and DVDs.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The problem is that being an author pays a few people a tremendous amount of money

So, publishers.

while most people who write for a living can’t really live on what they make.

You know who also can’t live off what they make? EVERYONE FUCKING ELSE. WELCOME TO REALITY.

No one is making enough to pay their bills, let alone CREATE.

That’s the primary problem. I don’t know how to fix that.

What, and ignore the Internet, learning how to host your own WordPress blog, set up a Paypal Business account, and run a business?

People do fanfiction for free, you know. Oh, and a lot of people write for free too. Ever heard of the Stormlight Archive franchise?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

If you have a job that does, good for you.

If you did c9me here to gloat and say I’m not trying hard enough, though, kindly take a short walk off a tall cliff, or, yanno, walk into one of the impoverished neighborhoods in America. You know, the one with all the crimes.

No, I’m not asking you to go neck yourself, because that’s against 1A, shockingly enough.

But do realize that people gotta paytheir bills first before they can even co sider a hobby or be creative.

If you can’t and want to cling onto your asinine beliefs of self-reliance and personal growth though…

Jan 6 happened. And you probably support it.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

That’s the primary problem. I don’t know how to fix that

It’s quite simple – producing a work of art doesn’t mean you will ever get paid for it, unless you have a prior agreement. Copyright is an imperfect attempt to prevent other people from profiting from the work at the expense of the original artist, but there’s no time in history where an artist was guaranteed an income.

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Anonymous Coward says:

The entire premise of copyright to begin with is that you can’t own ideas or words. They belong to society as a whole as soon as they’re shared. Government also recognized (at least they used to recognize) that people tend to jealousy guard ideas and innovation if they spend a lot of time and energy creating those ideas, because they fear they will lose time/money/credit etc. To make them more likely to share, the government gave sole right to control the money and republication of their ideas for a set time, understanding, “hey, we know this took time and effort, so you can profit from your ideas for a while in exchange for bequeathing them to society for the ultimate benefit of all.”

Somewhere along the way, that whole concept was lost. Now it’s all intellectual property. Creators now believe that they do own the ideas, and more, should have the right to form multigenerational baronies off the ownership.

And that is the source of all this. If society and creators still understood that no one owns an idea, they wouldn’t seem to feel entitled to deny access their ideas the same way landowners can deny trespassers.

Scote says:

AI does what humans do in synthesizing *new* content, but faster and cheaper

Authors have some legit beefs with AI when it actually copies them word for word, but it is rarely asked to do that. Instead, it does what people do in creating entirely new content based on reading content – that is what humans do.

So many people refused to understand how AI works and persist in false copyright infringement claims about it.

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sguidos (profile) says:

Indexing for AI or Searching is No Different

The phrase “when Google processed and indexed the entire internet without permission” caught my attention. Technically, parsing text found on the internet and “copying” it into a token database that will be used by a search algorithm is no different than parsing and copying that same text into a token database that will be used by an AI algorithm. But somehow there is a gut reaction that use of your tokenized work by an AI algorithm just “feels” unethical?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

I think that’s because searching benefits the author. It makes it easier to credit phrases or styles to a particular book/author.

AI makes it harder to credit that person with releasing it. Even if the act of being stored in a database is the same, the outcome appears very different from google’s usage.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

“The phrase “when Google processed and indexed the entire internet without permission” caught my attention”

Me too, for 2 reasons.

First is that Google doesn’t index the entire internet – they honour various things such as robots.txt, which ensure that they don’t index something.

The other thing is that they only index whatever’s made available to the public. There’s easy ways to prevent that. The problem is people wanting the benefits of indexing, but also wanting to be paid for it.

Anonymous Coward says:

I would expect that if any of the defendants of these lawsuits can find in discovery that the books3 data set was explicitly seek out to train their models, or was used for new training after receiving a C&D notice from an author or publisher with material that was made available in Books3, that those defendants would be in a weak position in a copyright infringement case regardless of if training the model itself ends of being fair use.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Thinking about that, Google and Microsoft in particular almost certainly would have been sent takedown notices about their indexing of Books3 from publishers for Google Search and Bing respectively, so it would be hard for them to argue that they were unaware of the infringing content at least at the original source if they used that for any recent training of their AI models.

Anonymous Coward says:

But, again, that’s the nature of releasing a work to the public. People read it. Machines might also read it.

The problem here is that you’re begging the question by assuming that a human reading a work is no different from a machine processing the same work as training for a ML model.

The obvious counter is that these two things are not necessarily the same. As a society, we’re absolutely free to decide that use of a copyrighted work in the training of a commercial product is not the same as a human reading and learning from that same work.

No need for any angry yelling whatsoever.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

But it is not yet decided if a human reading a book is different from a ai training.

It does not really matter what society has decided its what the courts decide. 10,000 authors and 10 million readers, the machines owe us. The court, following the predecent in the google search case. the books have not been copied, case dismissed.

Anonymous Coward says:

Frankly, I’m okay with the machine-learning aspect of these LLMs. Those are good. Those could lead to better spellcheckers and improve certain workflows in many, many industries.

Not so much the executives trying to use procedural content generators to replace human work or worse, justifying the cheapening of the process because “humans are a liability”.

Fucking Line Must Go Up mentality has to stop.

spamvictim (profile) says:

This is very fact specific

I have written a lot of books and back in the day made a lot of money from them. I agree that it is fine for AI models to chop them up and use them for training data. The Google Books case should have settled that, since one of the reasons the court found for Google is that they used the scanned books to produce things unlike copies of books, an index with snippets, interesting research like tracking the usage of words over the years.

The problem is that LLMs cannot tell you where their results come from, and if they start regurgitating recognizable chunks of my books, I would not be happy. (I would be differently unhappy if they invented nonsense quotes and claimed I wrote them.)

The Getty Images suit against Stability AI shows examples of generated images with recognizable Getty watermarks, so I have a lot of sympathy for Getty there. If LLMs could show their work, so we could tell the difference between research and cut’n’paste, these arguments would be a lot easier to resolve.

Rocky says:

Re:

The Getty Images suit against Stability AI shows examples of generated images with recognizable Getty watermarks, so I have a lot of sympathy for Getty there. If LLMs could show their work, so we could tell the difference between research and cut’n’paste, these arguments would be a lot easier to resolve.

The AI treats the watermark exactly the same as a face or any other common features in images. Pointing to the watermark as some gotcha is the same as pointing to other common features in images being reproduced by an AI as some kind of proof of infringement. Suing Stability AI for producing portraits of humans with correct skin-tones because Getty have images with humans makes just as much sense.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

If LLMs could show their work, so we could tell the difference between research and cut’n’paste,

As the models do not store recognizable chunks of any work,it cannot be cut and paste. The Getty water mark was a case of a model recognizing something went there in many images, but being a stupid machine not recognizing that it was an added mark to claim ownership.

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Nathan F (profile) says:

If you are an author and look in the Book3 list and have a fit that your work is being used, would you have an issue with your work being used in a literature class for students to break down and interpret or learn a writing convention from? If you have no issue with people using your work to learn from, why do you have an issue when a LLM uses it to learn from?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

I have news for you, writing text books is a poorly paid occupation, while while selling them to students is highly profitable. So it is publishers who raise a stink about free use of textbooks, and second hand copies, and grey market copies. The authors see nothing, or very little of the money flooding into academic and related publishing.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Which has nothing to do with the machine learning models themselves. If the creator of the model used illegally obtained books in the training set, then the model creator committed copyright infringement.

I wrote in a [different comment]:

You might ask, what if the human who trained the machine learning model didn’t get all of the books through legal methods? In that case, the machine learning model’s presence and role are completely irrelevant as far as copyright law is concerned, because what was illegal was how the human creator of the model obtained the books in the training set. If the books were obtained legally, then questions of compensation would be relevant only if the human prompting the model were to write the new book whose contents in isolation would infringe on an older book. Whether the creation process of the new book involved using a model doesn’t matter.

TKnarr (profile) says:

I think the biggest thing is how people differ from AI. Both take in and learn from other people’s work. But when a person goes to create something inspired by what they learned, they bring things to it that weren’t part of what they learned from. Creators can respect that, it’s what they did themselves after all. But AI can’t do that. At it’s current state it’s limited to basing what it does only on what it’s learned without being able to go beyond that. I mean, AI currently can’t even take “A equals B” and infer that that must mean “B equals A”. That leaves creators feeling like someone took their book, changed the names of places and characters and published the result as a completely new work. It may be different from the original work, but it’s hardly a creative change or addition.

This isn’t helped by all the idiots doing things with AI like deliberately training it on one creator’s work and using it to come up with crud they can market using the creator’s name and reputation to boost their sales.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

But when a person goes to create something inspired by what they learned, they bring things to it that weren’t part of what they learned from. … But AI can’t do that. At it’s current state it’s limited to basing what it does only on what it’s learned without being able to go beyond that.

This distinction is untenable. Humans do not have access to ideas they’ve never learned. We’re all limited to basing what we do only on what we’ve learned — our training set.

TKnarr (profile) says:

Re: Re:

We do have access to ideas we’ve never learned. How do you think someone comes up with an idea for the very first time? Even small children can take “A equals B” and come up with “B equals A” without being told as soon as they grasp what “equals” means. AI can’t do that, not at it’s current level. We don’t know how humans do it, but we’re capable of inductive logic where computers aren’t. And I don’t think we’re going to get true AI until we figure out what it is that makes us capable of that.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re:

But when a person goes to create something inspired by what they learned, they bring things to it that weren’t part of what they learned from

Sometimes. But, not always. There’s some major works of art that have been accused of plagiarism.

This isn’t helped by all the idiots doing things with AI like deliberately training it on one creator’s work and using it to come up with crud they can market using the creator’s name and reputation to boost their sales.

True, but there’s been humans doing that as well and they were tolerated.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re:

I think the biggest thing is how people differ from AI. Both take in and learn from other people’s work. But when a person goes to create something inspired by what they learned, they bring things to it that weren’t part of what they learned from. Creators can respect that, it’s what they did themselves after all. But AI can’t do that. At it’s current state it’s limited to basing what it does only on what it’s learned without being able to go beyond that.

My view is that the model itself is irrelevant, because humans are the ones doing things on both sides of the model. As I wrote in a different comment:

If the reader is a human, the human can use knowledge and perspectives they gain from reading the books for purposes unrelated or related to writing. If the “reader” is a machine learning model, the model itself does nothing, but a human can use the knowledge and perspectives they gain by giving the model prompts about things unrelated or related to writing. The machine learning model is a tool which when used conveys both similar benefits and different benefits from reading books directly.

Or in summary:

The issue of machine learning is not human reading vs machine reading, but human writing after reading vs human writing after prompting a machine which read.

Which is divorced from the issue of whether the ML model creator legally obtained the books in the training set.

nerdrage (profile) says:

let the lawyers squabble over copyright

Here’s my take on AI: it might be a huge boon to show runners and IP owners with followings. I just read an article about Vince Gilligan and his misgivings about AI. My first thought was, what does that guy have to worry about, his fans will follow him anywhere. AI is not going to replace him. People without his creativity and talent might need to worry.

Professionals who use AI to mimic Gilligan’s very popular style might be able to do knockoffs but they’ll be inferior and even if they’re as good or better than his stuff, they still can’t say they’re “Vince Gilligan” so his fans will still follow his shows and not the knockoffs.

But let’s say I’m not a professional and I want to re-do Lord of the Rings, Vince Gilligan style, either because I love both or maybe I hate LOTR and think it needs improvement. Feed that into the AI maw and let it spit out something with the Lord of the Rings actors in a Breaking Bad plotline, with dialogue that’s a mashup of LotR and Breaking Bad.

The result would be a silly mess but whoever makes it and uploads it to YouTube certainly wouldn’t expect to get paid other than YouTube tossing them a tiny cut of the ad revenues. It would be done for notoriety and entertainment value.

It can’t be stopped but far from replacing Gilligan’s work, it would serve as PR for him, keep him top of mind, and help promote his current stuff. I could see a whole series of parodies like this, a la the Downfall videos, mashing up everything you can think of. A small percentage of the mashups will be crazy, funny or good enough to go viral. Showrunners or IP owners with a following can either make use of this to their own advantage or get run over by it.

The copyright lawyers can run around making sure the LOTR/Gilligan knockoff makes no serious money, but they won’t stop it from existing while the marketing side of the business should be encouraging it.

PS I dibs Star Wars crossed with Deadwood.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Your talk about how people can use AI mashups to their advantage in marketing reminds me way too much of the NFT/Metaverse garbage.

“What if you took Vince Gilligan and Lord Of The Rings and made an AI mashup of them and then Vince Gilligan used it to market himself” sounds like “What if you owned Mario in a Mario Kart NFT game and could sell him to other people” or this cringe-ass “marketing” that Meta and Wendy’s did.

Anonymous Coward says:

Most smart writers don’t try to stop piracy but find ways to work around it. Selling books is just no longer a viable business model, so most now sell extensive courses and engage their audiences (or have an AI do it!).

The rulings on search engines and their transformative nature would seem to apply here. I don’t expect the creators to win.

Michael Brian Bentley says:

AI generated content lacks protection

I think it is fine when companies hoover the internet to feed the giant maws of the AI industry (I’m envisioning something like the movie Mortal Engines except for data). However: when you query the AI and receive an answer that you then use in a work, your work should then not qualify for copyright protection, since you plagiarized who knows someone else’s work. I imagine not claiming the copyright would not alleviate the problem.

If you’re writing a research paper, that’s great, but you can’t attribute just the AI, you need to attribute the source for the AI in each case.

Anathema Device (profile) says:

Not disagreeing at all

The AI thing sounds an awful lot like the repeating moral panics authors get themselves into over negative reviews, and how they might be able to stop or punish people posting them. As an author, I know how much a bad review stings, and I also learned the answer to that is to stop reading reviews.

There are two prongs to the current (and really annoying) author panic about AI – one is that it could be eating into sales, for which there is no evidence at all. There is a lot of human-made shitty fiction put up for sale, and yet the best AI generated text would only come up to the same level of success as the human garbage. You would sell some of it to some people, but it’s not going to hit any best seller list.

The other is a moral concern that AI is being used for evil purposes and putting people out of work while serving up inferior service to their former clients and customers. The problem with this is that this horse has left the barn, headed for the highway, and been shot by police two states over. It’s just too late to try and haul back source material now, and the efforts to do so look petulant, self-serving, and are illegal.

The arguments and controls over the use AI should concentrate on unethical usage, protection of people’s privacy and prevention of exploitation of artists and actors’ right to a continuing income from the use of their images or images they create. Authors already have protection of their text in the form of copyright. That’s enough.

Ian Gilmore says:

Who has the right?

Publishing a book does not mean anyone has a right to read it without remunerating the owner of the book. It’s interesting that this article nowhere clearly addresses this distinction.

If I publish a book, anyone can read it, or do what they want with it after paying for it or otherwise obtaining a legal right to it

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Publishing a book does not mean anyone has a right to read it without remunerating the owner of the book.

Even with printed books, the number of readers was several time greater than the number of copies sold. Books were lent to other people, and sold and resold on the second hand market.

It is also worth noting that the most common model for creators to make money on the Internet is to make works available for free, and use the likes of Patreon or Kickstarter so that people can support them in creating the next work.

Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“the most common model”

Even if this was true for authors, it’s simply not the most lucrative one.

And as I’ve said ad nauseam here, it’s not a model that suits many authors, who are often reclusive and antisocial in their habits. Begging people who read your work to cough up a buck or a yen if they feel like it and they like you is not only not for everyone, it’s also demeaning as hell.

Authors have a right to sell their product, just as any other creator does, and control the income derived from those sales. Readers are already getting fiction and nonfiction at astonishing low prices through ebooks (and well below cost). Why should they get it for free and force the creator to caper like monkeys to entertain on top of the entertainment their books provide?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

And as I’ve said ad nauseam here, it’s not a model that suits many authors, who are often reclusive and antisocial in their habits.

That is their problem, as they will also have problems marketing a book behind a paywall, or even working retailers and/or with a publisher to market their work. Various web sites will also allow them to sell works, but that does not help if they cannot use social media to market their own work, or find and work with a marketing person.

People tend to fixate on the marketing model, when the real problem, regardless of the marketing model, is building the fan base needed to support a creator.

Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“building the fan base needed to support a creator”

Which doesn’t have to be through Patreon or Instagram or Fakebook.

There is a difference between using social media tools with or without publisher supporter to promote sales of books, and using social media to beg for donations. The latter is the one which is only lucrative for a few people who are gifted in working groups. The former makes money for people who are diligent in maintaining their web/media presence and who have actual talent. The former also doesn’t mean a constant inane performance for the crowd chucking coins.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I didn’t specify ant particular way of building a fan base, just said that it is a requirement for making a living from creative endeavour. What is very difficult is building a fab base if you start with a pay wall in the way. Further which is most likely to be successful, ‘buy my book’ or ‘read my book, and if you like it send me a few $$’. Indeed the first task for creative people in most fields is to gain a few fans who will start to spread the word. Also, unless they are extremely talented, it will take them several works to achieve a quality that people will pay for, and constructive feedback from a dew people who see potential in their work makes that easier that rejection letter, one star ratings or just being ignored. Pass the quality threshold, and people will ask how they can support a creator.

Oh, the Internet is much more that the big sites, and finding the right group or forum can be the route to success.

Anonymous Coward says:

It bears repeating: content creators might have earned a lot more sympathy if 1) They hadn’t used copyright as the basis for their legal claims and 2) They didn’t already have a history of consistently denying responsibility when machines did shitty stuff in their favor like ordering unwarranted DMCA takedowns or suing the innocent.

No says:

Not “used” - stolen

My beef with AI is not how they use the stuff that they have. You’re right. If you steal a book from Barnes & Nobles and then write a review of it, your review is fair use. The problem is the fact that you stole a book from Barnes & Nobles. They are using pirated books. They didn’t pay for the books. Now, it feels silly to argue about the $5-10ish/per book it would’ve cost them to buy all the books they’ve used to train the algorithms, but at least it would have been something. It would have made those companies face a little bit more of the actual cost of the labor used to create all that intellectual property. Back to the Barnes and Noble example: they cleaned out every bookstore in town, and then chopped them up into confetti, threw it into the air, and some of it landed and made sense. The confetti is not the issue. How they got the material to make the confetti is the issue. And we KNOW now it was from pirated sites. But because the books were made of ones and zeros, or because it was really easy to do, or because somebody else stole them first, suddenly, it’s fair use. It literally isn’t; it’s theft! Not everything online is free. Some of it is behind paywalls. Just because you can get around those paywalls doesn’t mean it’s not a crime. And just because what you make with it afterwards is not a crime does not excuse your original crime. Don’t steal all the books. Pay for the books. (Et al) Then turn them into eleven fingered, balenciaga-wearing, poisoned-mushroom, werewolf porn to your heart’s content.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

They are using pirated books. They didn’t pay for the books. Now, it feels silly to argue about the $5-10ish/per book it would’ve cost them to buy all the books

So here’s a counterpoint… how do you go about proving all that? Proving that specific instance(s) of theft occurred?

I’m not saying it didn’t happen, I’m saying that you’ll need more than “I could have been five to ten dollars richer” as a standard of evidence.

Anathema Device (profile) says:

Re:

What if the reviewer sat in B&N and read the book from cover to cover before reviewing it? What if it was borrowed from a friend? What if it was second hand?

All those are completely legal actions which don’t add a penny to the author’s income.

The claim the books were pirated is not proven, or relevant. I’m tired of this argument. It’s ridiculous and makes those making it look stupid and greedy.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

The claim the books were pirated is not proven, or relevant. I’m tired of this argument. It’s ridiculous and makes those making it look stupid and greedy.

You’d be right, but don’t count on things changing any time soon.

Content creators are so attached to the idea of copyright law solving every one of their perceived problems, they’re completely incapable of pursuing any other avenue or alternative.

They lived by the sword and they are going to die by it from willingly diving headfirst after it.

Larry McClellan (profile) says:

Not losing, giving up control

Yes!!
As a vanity-published author, I couldn’t agree more strongly.
I said much the same thing, with more words, in filling out the Copyright Office’s
Comments on Artificial Intelligence and Copyright
[Docket No. 2023-6]
forms.
I feel that a lot of this hoopfuraw is people trying to double-dip, just like the telcos and other big businesses. I disapprove of the practice no matter who is doing it.

Joe Not Yet says:

CC vs. Copyright

I’m fine with public-interest organizations feeding whatever material they like into AI, provided that AI will be used for the public welfare, probably by the public at low or no cost, like a library.

However, if someone takes my book and puts it into an AI model for their own private profit, that’s like selling my book in a for-profit bookstore and not giving me a cut.

What the AI will be used for is the key thing to assess. A non-profit public AI organization should have few or no restrictions, like a public library. A for-profit private AI should have to pay creators fairly for the reuse. I shouldn’t have to watch my work be repurposed for someone else’s profit without my consent (which presumably you will have to buy/hire from me).

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Content creators do seem to forget that bit whenever they set out on arguments like this. They buy into the idea that everything they do should be nickel and dimed like it is for modern social media influencers, and to be fair – that motivation is understandable.

The problem comes when they actually have a sit down and think about how such a scheme might be implemented, or what it means from the consumer’s perspective, or what sorts of legal activity might be adversely affected.

Nihl L'Amas says:

I think there’s plenty of room to establish legal standards maintaining existing human rights and rejecting any concept of LLMs having inspiration- or opinion-based rights.

Proposed, but open to argument: Automated systems should be legally classified as acts of copying, regardless of how much they simulate human learning or interpretation, and limited to activities where direct and cited reproduction is justified by fair use.

Automode says:

Digital vs Analog

Put data on the internet and anyone (thing) can take it and do whatever they (it) want. Put data in a paperback book (analog) and AI will have no access to it. Someone buys that book. When they’re done with the book they give it away to someone else to read – for free. That person takes the book and scans it to the internet, regardless of legal ramifications. Now analog has become digital. AI takes the author’s work – for free. The point is, why does it matter if AI uses any data in any way? I mean, all data really is are 1s and 0s. That is the dichotomy of digital. Or, should I say commodity? It used to be a book. Now it’s just data. AI is simply an effort to use all that data faster, better, for all humanity, and probably for profit. Analog is just a leftover way of thinking these days.

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