Court: Apparently Vindictive Detainment And Strip Search Are, Yep, Constitutional Violations

from the being-an-asshole:-almost-always-a-rights-violation dept

You can be a law enforcement officer without being a complete asshole. I know it rarely seems to be the case, but it’s completely possible to command respect while still treating others with respect. And while assholery tends to go hand-in-hand with enforcing the law far too often, the end result of being vindictive and rude is almost always a handful of violated rights.

And that’s where qualified immunity comes into play. The Supreme Court created this doctrine under the theory that it would protect officers from the unintended consequences of split-second decisions made during tense, fast-moving situations they occasionally find themselves in.

That was the intent. But this immunity has been invoked to shield officers from the consequences of actions provoked neither by immediate danger nor time constraints. Instead, it’s something officers assume is more likely than not to excuse them from lawsuits, even when courts find they’ve violated rights. The officers are free to go, so long as they violated rights in a way that hasn’t been foreclosed by precedent.

Sometimes though, the roll of dice goes the plaintiff’s way. That’s the case here in a decision [PDF] handed down by the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.

It all started innocently enough. On June 5, 2014, 67-year-old Christopher Murphy sat in an Elmira, New York bus terminal, waiting for the bus taking him to his medical appointments. He boarded the bus and, shortly thereafter, police officers arrived and took him off the bus. They arrested him on a bench warrant for misdemeanor offenses related to the city’s property maintenance codes.

So far, so innocuous. Misdemeanor offenses. Code enforcement. Bench warrant. All of this should have been settled quickly, quietly, and without a strip search. Instead, officers handcuffed Murphy to a waist chain and sat him down in City Hall to wait to see a judge. The judge arrived and Murphy’s bail was set at $750. Murphy only had $400 on him, so the judge remanded him to the Elmira PD officers until he made bail or until his next hearing, which was nearly two hours later.

He was fingerprinted, photographed, and processed. Five minutes after that, his girlfriend showed up with the bail money. The officers told her Murphy was now in the custody of the Sheriff’s Department and she would need to post bail at the county jail.

Once at the county jail, Murphy was fingerprinted yet again by Glenn Gunderman, a jail employee from the Sheriff’s Department. Here’s what Gunderman told Murphy initially:

As Murphy was being fingerprinted, Gunderman said to him “[y]our bail’s sitting out there and we’re going to cut you loose” or “[w]e’ve got to cut you loose.” Gunderman also said that
Camilli [Murphy’s girlfriend] — who was attempting to post Murphy’s bail and secure his release — was “making a real fuss, making a real commotion” about the delay. Murphy’s impression was that he would be released “immediately
.”

That didn’t happen. Instead, lots of other stuff did, most of it at the hands (and I mean that literally) of Admissions Officer William Washburn.

After about an hour, and about an hour before Murphy was due back in court, the Booking and Admissions Officer — defendant-appellee William Washburn — removed him from the cell. Washburn brought Murphy to a small room and conducted a visual body cavity search, requiring Murphy to disrobe, lift his scrotum, and spread his buttocks.Washburn did not touch Murphy during the search, which lasted around ten minutes.

After the search was completed, Washburn escorted Murphy out of the search room. Washburn gestured to other officers with his thumb and forefinger, which Murphy understood as mockingly connoting that he had a small penis. Murphy was then brought back to the holding cell.

On top of this insult, Washburn added more constitutional injury.

At least two or three times, in the presence of other deputies, Gunderman said “[t]his guy’s bail’s out there. We’ve got to cut him loose.”

Washburn responded: “No. We’re not done with him yet. He’s not going anywhere. He’s going to sit in my jail for a while.” Washburn made comments to this effect both before and after the strip search.

Murphy was held for two hours, and for at least an hour after he had made bail. On top of that, there was the strip search, which was neither supported by jail policy or the Constitution itself. Jail policy said strip searches were only justified if there was reasonable suspicion a detainee might be hiding contraband. Murphy was arrested on a bench warrant for city code violations while waiting for a bus, hardly the sort of thing that suggests the (perhaps hidden) presence of contraband.

According to policy, all strip searches were recorded on a “Strip Search Justification Sheet.” But the sheet Washburn presented to the court showed nothing more than “Per Post 1” in the space reserved for “explanation of the grounds or reasons for conducting the search.” The rest of the form was blank.

Washburn’s testimony — which came in the form of a sworn affidavit (he did not actually testify in court) — didn’t clear anything up. Instead, it was vague, recursive, and written in the exonerative tense.

According to Washburn, the notation “per Post 1” on the Justification Sheet meant that some supervisory officer — he did not identify whom — had authorized the search. Washburn contended that the strip search “was necessarily based on reasonable suspicion” because the Policy required it to be; moreover, Washburn averred, neither he nor any other officer “directed to perform the search[] would have had the discretion to disobey the order.” On this basis, Washburn argued, even assuming “for purposes of this motion only” that he had conducted the search, he “would have lacked discretion as to whether or not to perform” it because it “would have occurred solely based upon a direct order from a superior pursuant to Chemung County Jail policy.”

Huh. The search was justified because jail policy required it to be justified. Settle down there, Perry Mason.

Somehow, the lower court was fine with all of this. The Sixth Circuit, however, not so much.

At no point in this litigation have defendants purported to identify a legitimate penological purpose for the strip search. Furthermore, there was evidence that Washburn’s actions were motivated by malice. He mocked Murphy about the size of his penis. And when another officer noted that Murphy’s bail was “out there” and they needed “to cut him loose,” Washburn responded in a manner that could be understood to exhibit malice by saying that Murphy would not be going anywhere and was going to sit in “my” jail “for a while.” On these facts, a reasonable jury could readily conclude that Washburn was acting not to further legitimate penological concerns but purely out of vindictiveness.

On top of that, Washburn just simply isn’t a credible witness.

First, the record is muddled as to whether Washburn was in fact following the directions of a superior officer. Washburn denies conducting the strip search and argues only hypothetically that if he did, he would have been following orders. […] Washburn does not state that any order was actually given, and no evidence has been provided as to the identity of any officer who might have given an order for the search.

Moreover, Washburn’s self-serving testimony that the entry “per Post 1” on the Justification Sheet meant that a superior officer had ordered the search was not necessarily believable. Second, on this record, a reasonable jury could find that Washburn was responsible, in whole or in part, for the decision to strip search Murphy. The Justification Sheet, which was supposed to set forth the reason for the search and identify the officer who authorized it, does not provide any reason for the search, does not reveal who (if anyone) authorized the search, and provides no detail about how the search was authorized other than the cryptic designation “per Post 1.” Doc.

Contrary to Washburn’s assertion that he did not conduct the search, the Justification Sheet identifies him as the “Search Officer.” […] The absence of reasonable suspicion for the search, Washburn’s failure to properly document the search or indicate which superior officer approved it, the crude gesture he made after the search, and his comments about Murphy sitting in “my” jail “for a while” despite bail having been posted are all circumstances from which a reasonable jury could infer that Washburn was acting of his own volition and not pursuant to the orders of a superior.

The same can be said for the two-hour delay, which was largely exacerbated by Washburn’s apparently animus towards Murphy.

Again, construing the record in Murphy’s favor, Gunderman cautioned Washburn two or three times that Murphy’s bail was “out there” and that he had to be released. Yet, Washburn ignored Gunderman and deliberately kept Murphy in “my” jail “for a while.” Moreover, Washburn subjected Murphy to a strip search gratuitously, without reasonable suspicion, in contravention of the Policy. Washburn’s words and his crude gesture suggest that his actions were not merely negligent but, instead, that he was actively hostile.

And that means these are constitutional violations outside the protection of qualified immunity. Even if they might seem small compared to other rights violations we’ve covered, they’re still violations and they never needed to happen. Instead of being able to smugly walk away from the complaints of a person he vindictively humiliated, Washburn will have to return to court to explain himself to a jury.

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Comments on “Court: Apparently Vindictive Detainment And Strip Search Are, Yep, Constitutional Violations”

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159 Comments
Cowardly and Anonymous says:

Not every person who does harm is an asshole. Plenty of those who worked for the Nazi regime were not party members, did not care about the party’s race obsession, and yet nevertheless helped participate in the extermination of what their government had deemed people unworthy of living.

No matter how nice, or professional, or fair a person may be, if they act on behalf of a harmful system then their actions will do harm.

We pay far too much attention to whether or not a cop acted nice, or was charitable, or gave someone a second chance first. But ultimately, enforcing an unjust law is enforcing an unjust law, whether you do it with a sneer or a smile or an apology. So long as the end is wrong, there will be no good means of accomplishing it.

Whether you lead a steer to the slaughterhouse with a carrot or a stick, you’re still taking them to the slaughterhouse, and no superficial niceties are going to change that fact.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
David says:

Re:

No matter how nice, or professional, or fair a person may be, if they act on behalf of a harmful system then their actions will do harm.

Uh, your stock treatise does not fit. The case is about the officer not acting on behalf of the system but in violation of it. The system would have demanded that with bail posted, Murphy would have been released from custody.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

IMMUNE

” The Supreme Court created this doctrine under the theory that it would protect officers from the unintended consequences of split-second decisions made during tense, fast-moving situations they occasionally find themselves in.”

====================================================

Average law abiding citizens also can make bad decisions under tense circumstances, But they get no blanket legal Immunity beforehand.

Everyone should be EQUAL under the law, But SCOTUS outrageously contrived a NEW class of persons who are ABOVE the law.

The entire American political establishment saw no problem this SCOTUS criminality.

David says:

Re:

The deadlocked political system very rarely reaches the kind of majorities necessary to amend the Constitution in order to update it with the progress of the human and technological foundations of society.

So for better or worse, the Supreme Court often has to deal with the question “if we were to dig out century old corpses and asked them how to apply their words to this world, what would they say?” and there are various doctrines about how much you are allowed to tell the corpses about the current world’s fabric before consulting them.

One problem is that those corpses are getting a fair amount of hero worship, so people just refuse to various degrees to believe how far behind the current times they actually would be, and there is no agreement about how open they might be to adapt.

As a consequence, the Supreme Court is tasked to a good degree with fictionalizing the legal foundations of the Republic. To some degree, they are bound by their own precedent (present company excluded), meaning that if they get too definitive, they create doctrine that is pretty hard to get rid of without shattering the illusion that everything is governed by the constant North Star of the Constitution.

That’s not as much criminal as cringeworthy. But it’s part of the unofficial job description.

To change that, the processes for political adaptation of the Constitution would need to become less stratified towards ossification, but that comes with its own dangers.

Unfortunately, the politicisation of the Supreme Court is an ongoing project to change the Constitution’s impact without touching its text. That is attacking the foundations of the Republic from an angle unexpected by the founders, and consequently the constitutional mechanisms for the workings of the Supreme Court are unsuitable for accommodating changes effected in that manner.

Douglas Adams (user link) says:

accountability

When it comes to upholding constitutional rights, the court’s recent ruling on apparently vindictive detainment and strip searches sends a powerful message. This landmark decision reaffirms the importance of protecting individual liberties, even in the face of alleged wrongdoing. The court’s decision highlights the need for accountability and transparency within the justice system. By recognizing that vindictive detainment and strip searches violate constitutional rights, the court not only safeguards the dignity and humanity of individuals but also sets a precedent for future cases. This ruling serves as a reminder that no one is above the law, and that justice must always be tempered with fairness and respect for the rights of all individuals.

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davec (profile) says:

Good Example of Why Cops Need QI

Somehow, the lower court was fine with all of this. The Sixth Circuit, however, not so much.

Funny how one court rules one way while another court rules the opposite and police officers are expected to know (often without having all the facts) exactly what the final verdict will be. This article seems like a great example of why police officers need Qualified Immunity.

David says:

Re:

Qualified Immunity does not change the “I thought I could get away with it” problem. It actually acerbates it since police officers need to know what citizens are allowed to do and they need to know what qualified immune citizens are allowed to do.

The actual answer is “exactly the same”. The only thing qualified immunity is supposed to provide is some lenity in case of honest mistakes.

Instead, it used a lot to cover disingenuous “mistakes” that no police officer would ever allow an unprivileged citizen to make.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

The actual answer is “exactly the same”.

Qualified immunity is a type of legal immunity that protects a government official from lawsuits alleging that the official violated a plaintiff’s rights, only allowing suits where officials violated a “clearly established” statutory or constitutional right.

If one court is reversing another court, then the “clearly established” requirement hasn’t been met.

It only applies to government officials acting as government officials.

David says:

Re: Re: Re:2

“Immunity” implies that it does not alter the rules but their enforcement. Like diplomatic immunity does not mean you are allowed to kill people, but rather that your prosecution is outside of the scope of the host country.

Diplomatic immunity does lead to some serial offenses, the preeminent one being cavalier about parking tickets and other traffic violations.

The expectation is that for more serious cases, the host country will take over dealing with their personnel.

Qualified immunity should be about the same, and civil right violations are right among the core of those offenses that should lead to serious consequences for the job, since those offenses touch the core of the public’s trust in police operations, and that trust is vital for being able to do effective police work.

But the combination of incentives and rationales that QI provides does not work as intended. If QI were established as a law, the lawmakers could scrap it and try achieving similar objectives in a different way.

But the Supreme Court established it as an interpretation of the existing body of law (and I will refrain from guessing just what body part they pulled it from). They cannot easily scrap it while pretending they did not create it in the first place.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Yet

The problem with qualified immunity is it’s no longer qualified: not when everything is considered qualified until it is not.
The premise has become a limited minority right. One that must be stripped away.

In implementation it was designed to not make a cop responsible when their rounds travel through a suspect. In reality it has allowed them to empty a clip and spray wildly.

Like many protections in this country, once put into practice the idea slips away.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

What’s your point? Courts are flip flops and therefore the citizens suffer – really? Nothing we can do here, move along.

Point is if the law changes or the interpretation of the law changes then the police officer is not held liable. You also don’t get to sue the judge or any other government official (at least not without the governments permission).

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Point is if the law changes or the interpretation of the law changes then the police officer is not held liable.

Except that that hasn’t stopped the police from arresting citizens for weed possession or filming the police in states where such acts would be completely legal now, has it?

Why does your team get a free pass for things that are legal but we don’t?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Except that that hasn’t stopped the police from arresting citizens for weed possession or filming the police in states where such acts would be completely legal now, has it?
Why does your team get a free pass for things that are legal but we don’t?

If what you did was legal at the time then that should be your defense in court. Same for the police.

Why does your team get to taunt, film and flip off the police and they can’t do it back to you? Why do you get to sue the police and they can’t sue you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Why does your team get to taunt, film and flip off the police and they can’t do it back to you?

You taunt and flip off the public regularly in your private forums, then get angry when people realize you treat them like trash. As for the filming, that’s what your body cameras are for. You know… the same technology you vilified, and insisted would be harmful, until they started storing evidence to prove police innocence.

Why do you get to sue the police and they can’t sue you?

Who says you can’t? Ask your son to sue people if it bothers you that much. I can’t guarantee you’ll be successful, but go ahead and try it. You’ll just have to pray for a favorable judge just like the rest of us normies.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If we ignore the question of QI for a moment, how would you characterize the behavior of the police in this case? Do you think it was right and proper to strip search, denigrate and generally treat this person as dirt?

My daughter-in-law worked in the jails for years. It is a machine that deals with all types of people from murderers to people with minor traffic warrants. Most often the deputies have no idea (nor is it their business to know) why the people have been arrested. It is the deputy’s job to keep them safe, get them to court, send them off to prison, or process them out. Every deputy has a job or a station in the process and it is bureaucratic and mind-numbing. It is no wonder that deputy Washburn doesn’t remember if he conducted the strip search back in 2014. He had probably done thousands before Mr. Murphy and thousands after. The thousands of strip searches before and after Mr. Murphy weren’t meant to denigrate, they were part of the process.

I think Mr. Murphy ended up in jail and took the process as a personal attack on him. The courts had previously ruled against Mr. Murphy (and probably will again). This case that Mr. Cushing is presenting is an appeal to retry Mr. Murphy’s complaint.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

My daughter-in-law worked in the jails for years.

I don’t care one bit if she worked in jails or if she sucked dick for a living because it has zero relevance to the question I posed.

I think Mr. Murphy ended up in jail and took the process as a personal attack on him. The courts had previously ruled against Mr. Murphy (and probably will again).

You didn’t actually answer the question, instead you deflected and tried to blame the victim who had his rights violated.

This case that Mr. Cushing is presenting is an appeal to retry Mr. Murphy’s complaint.

The court doesn’t seem to think that, lets recap what they said because you seem entirely to ignorant to have read it the first time: Again, construing the record in Murphy’s favor, Gunderman cautioned Washburn two or three times that Murphy’s bail was “out there” and that he had to be released. Yet, Washburn ignored Gunderman and deliberately kept Murphy in “my” jail “for a while.” Moreover, Washburn subjected Murphy to a strip search gratuitously, without reasonable suspicion, in contravention of the Policy. Washburn’s words and his crude gesture suggest that his actions were not merely negligent but, instead, that he was actively hostile.

You are incredibly dishonest, you’ll happily defend cops who violate other people rights because they feel like it, and you consistently blame the victims who has been subjected to the whims of these cops. In short, you support the criminals in uniform and the crimes the perpetrate.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You are incredibly dishonest, you’ll happily defend cops who violate other people rights because they feel like it, and you consistently blame the victims who has been subjected to the whims of these cops. In short, you support the criminals in uniform and the crimes the perpetrate.

The first trial was 3 years after the event and you only have Mr. Murphy’s testimony about what Mr. Gunderman said which is hearsay. I think it would be fishy if Mr. Gunderman even remembered Mr. Murphy 3 years later, that alone what was said or what was going on.

Apparently you would grasp at straws if it would punish a police officer either justly or unjustly.

You are not one to talk about honesty.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

Actually, no. Murphy testified as to what he personally observed, to wit, cop saying stuff. Testifying to what you personally observe is not hearsay.

And if Mr. Gunderman denies saying it or more likely doesn’t remember saying it?

A Guide to Hearsay + Meaning, Definition, Overview – Law Venture
https://lawventure.com/a-guide-to-hearsay-meaning-definition-overview/?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1OmoBhDXARIsAAAYGSEDTjORVH1dOl05OUbgRYJzWF4TfiluTUT97A7pe-U28caDfKuW-XIaAk4FEALw_wcB

This is the point of why police officers need QI. Courts make questionable decisions all the time. The attorneys argue over the fine points of the law and push their views into the grey area to win a trial. If you are a police officer without QI, working under the guidelines of the court and those guidelines change, you could be held criminally and financially liable. The judges and the attorneys all have QI so they can waffle back and forth all they want.

In the end nobody would be a police officer which would mean the end of the middle class.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

In the end nobody would be a police officer which would mean the end of the middle class.

Oh can it already, chicken little. As many of us have said before, they can always fuck off to the private sector, where they won’t be able to retire at 45, won’t be guaranteed a pension, and won’t necessarily have a corrupt union arguing that they can’t be dismissed for being stupid and/or incompetent.

With more states legalizing constitutional carry, you should worry more about becoming obsolete from that.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Oh can it already, chicken little. As many of us have said before, they can always fuck off to the private sector, where they won’t be able to retire at 45, won’t be guaranteed a pension, and won’t necessarily have a corrupt union arguing that they can’t be dismissed for being stupid and/or incompetent.

In my son’s case the retirement is 50 and he started at 21 which means he’s been a cop for 28 years. Through at least 20 years he enjoyed the job but then it changed. If he was 21 today, he wouldn’t even think about being a cop. If he was 31 today and had been a cop for 10 years he would have gotten out. If he was 41 today and had been a cop for 20 years, he would be cautiously doing the job with tunnel vision and self-preservation as his guide. Three years ago, he transferred out of patrol and into a tech field within the department. Nine months to retirement. This is how most officers view the job, especially in California.

With more states legalizing constitutional carry, you should worry more about becoming obsolete from that.

I certainly understand why more people are carrying guns. Three years ago I bought my first gun in more than 50 years.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

The question stands, davec. If the police ever gunned down your wife or your son in a case of mistaken identity, knowing what you know and under your belief that any legal action against the police would risk besmirching the reputation of the force, would you just shrug and call yourself unlucky?

Your slavish devotion suggests you would.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

The question stands, davec. If the police ever gunned down your wife or your son in a case of mistaken identity, knowing what you know and under your belief that any legal action against the police would risk besmirching the reputation of the force, would you just shrug and call yourself unlucky?

I would be upset and angry at anyone who killed a loved one and I would want them to answer for it.

But what if they had a good answer.

If there was a shootout and an officer was wounded, laying on his back and the guy who shot him ran over to get in the kill shot. The officer empties his gun at the shooter in a last second effort to save his life and a bullet from his gun kills my wife or son. Who is most responsible?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

So back to the slavish devotion it is, then.

But what if they had a good answer.

To you, a good answer is “If we allow you, davec, to sue us for accidentally killing your wife and son, our reputation would be ruined and it would mean the death of the middle class. So please please please don’t inconvenience us just because your wife and son got killed.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

If he was 21 today, he wouldn’t even think about being a cop. If he was 31 today and had been a cop for 10 years he would have gotten out.

So hindsight is 20/20. No fucking shit, Sherlock. Was there a point to this?

If he was 41 today and had been a cop for 20 years, he would be cautiously doing the job with tunnel vision and self-preservation as his guide.

An admission that he would put his own safety over those of others? Again, why should that make me feel that cops are there to protect me? Sounds like at 41, they’re useless.

Three years ago, he transferred out of patrol and into a tech field within the department.

Ahh, there we go – still in the department. So he hasn’t ‘gotten out.’ Save your anecdotes. All they’re saying is ‘being in the police is so lucrative, he stuck around until retirement.’

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

“In the end nobody would be a police officer which would mean the end of the middle class.”

Ok .. why would this mean the end of the middle class?

btw – the middle class, as we knew it, has been continually eroded since the end of the 60s. Not sure who the geniuses think will pay all those taxes when the middles class is gone.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

The theory is that criminal elements would hurt the middle class the hardest because the higher classes would be well protected by spending resources to cover their own asses.

Technically, that’s a rational explanation, but davec consistently assumes that cops protect the middle class, or assumes that cops don’t go after the middle class. You need only look at the people that cops wrongfully or incorrectly arrest and shoot, then plead “Good faith! QI!” when they have to face the consequences of their actions. Or that the middle class, as you said, has been consistently eroded. Their spending power is down. Their unemployment rates are up. What members of the middle class don’t eventually rise up to the higher rungs of social advancement, they get pushed down.

Of course davec doesn’t mention those demographic changes. davec tries to pass himself off as a member of the middle class, but he’s not. He’s far too protected. He’s a member of the blue class, the enforcement muscle who sucks the cops off to assuage their frail insecurities and make them feel like the big boys in the room. He’s a simpering hanger-on for a schoolyard bully.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Technically, that’s a rational explanation, but davec consistently assumes that cops protect the middle class, or assumes that cops don’t go after the middle class. You need only look at the people that cops wrongfully or incorrectly arrest and shoot, then plead “Good faith! QI!” when they have to face the consequences of their actions.

What happens when the police pull back or are prevented from doing their job? Crime rises and it hurts everyone. Only you and the most demented activists want to ignore that.

I know I’m not going to change your opinion about the police. The only thing that would is if they all simply walked off the job. After about a month even you would be begging for their return.

I don’t want it to get to that point.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

What happens when the police pull back or are prevented from doing their job? Crime rises and it hurts everyone. Only you and the most demented activists want to ignore that.

What we want is that they fucking do their job properly without walking all over peoples rights, taking peoples lives and their money, and then walk away laughing because of QI. There are whole fucking departments that have put into practice to rob ordinary people by using the excuse of asset forfeiture.

And if following laws and procedures are “preventing” them from doing their job, why the fuck do we even have law and procedures? Why should any government entity follow laws and rules, huh? Why don’t they just do as they please?

You know what I wish for, I want you personally to be subjected to the things you have defended. Afterwards you can tell us all how hard it is being a cop and how they were entirely right in fucking up your life and how you just took it laying down without saying complaining.

Talk about lacking any sense whatsoever of what is right and proper.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

What we want is that they fucking do their job properly without walking all over peoples rights, taking peoples lives and their money, and then walk away laughing because of QI. There are whole fucking departments that have put into practice to rob ordinary people by using the excuse of asset forfeiture.

And when the courts rule that they were doing their “fucking” job will you still insist they go to jail?

And if following laws and procedures are “preventing” them from doing their job, why the fuck do we even have law and procedures? Why should any government entity follow laws and rules, huh? Why don’t they just do as they please?

When the DA tells the police not to arrest shoplifters unless it is over $950 and hundreds of shoplifters descend on the stores causing them to close, don’t blame the police. When the police are not allowed to pursue fleeing suspects at high speed, don’t blame the police when the criminals turn every pursuit into a high-speed chase. When cops are quitting and retiring at an alarming rate, don’t blame the cop that finally shows up.

You know what I wish for, I want you personally to be subjected to the things you have defended. Afterwards you can tell us all how hard it is being a cop and how they were entirely right in fucking up your life and how you just took it laying down without saying complaining.

What I want for you is for a police officer to save your life. Maybe even worse, save the life of your child. I want for you to be robbed, the criminal caught, and your things returned to you before you are even aware you’ve been robbed. I want you to have a best friend or family member that you really admire and have them become a police officer.

Then I want to see if you can resist the urge to flip them off.

Talk about lacking any sense whatsoever of what is right and proper.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

What I want for you is for a police officer to save your life. Maybe even worse, save the life of your child. I want for you to be robbed, the criminal caught, and your things returned to you before you are even aware you’ve been robbed.

Maybe a decade or so ago this might still have been relevant.

These days the police is far more likely to let a shooter like the one in Uvalde have his way with your kids, then demand to be respected.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

In the UK, if anybody gets injured and their may be police involvement, the independent investigation agency moves in and looks the case. That include pedestrian stepping out in front of a police vehicle, or someone crashing a vehicle trying to run away from the police. yet they can still recruit police.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

In the UK, if anybody gets injured and their may be police involvement, the independent investigation agency moves in and looks the case. That include pedestrian stepping out in front of a police vehicle, or someone crashing a vehicle trying to run away from the police. yet they can still recruit police.

Nearly every police department in the US has some type of independent oversight like you mentioned above, either locally or State ran.

In the US we have nearly 340 million people and we have more guns than people. Because of that nearly every police officer carries a gun, and every call has the potential of ending in the death of someone. Self-preservation and split-second decisions can result in very controversial outcomes. When police feel that they are being put into situations with no regard for the danger they are in, and are expected to somehow flawlessly make the right decision or go to jail, they will refuse to do the job.

Some UK police put down guns after an officer is charged with murder in the shooting of a Black man – ABC News

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-police-put-guns-after-officer-charged-murder-103444262

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Thailand has more guns than people,
Nearly no ownership requirements, and less gun violence.
Mongolia has legal near-anything ownership and less gun crime.

In the flip side of this? Turkey and the Philippines both have a near-total war-level armament of police and less issues of police violence. Traffic enforcers in both are armed with AK47 or M4s. They manage not to kill pets. Let alone people.

Guns aren’t the problem. Guns never were the problem.
The police society in this country is one issue. Bad training. Zero engagement regulation. And some mystical level of blue protectionist.
BUT!

America is a country born of blood. We were formed by slaughtering our government. In our own backyards.
The US has no generation that has not known war. There is no 20-year gap in our history, none. The oldest living generation was born to fighters in a war in our soil.

We are a violent people as a whole. You can try to diminish that, but we are a warrior nation.

The fastest way to stop violent response to violent crime is to make the response to violent crime a worthy punishment. People go to jail for 20 years for tax evasion; but 3-7 for assault.
Crime and punishment is backwards. (Assuming there are police there to actually make arrests now).

Guns are not the problem.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

You are not one to talk about honesty.

I’m not the one who blames the victims of police abuse, that’s you.

And in regards to “hearsay”, the actual documented evidence plus the statement from Gunderman tells the story of how one dishonest cop violated a persons rights because he could.

If you want to defend dishonest cops who doesn’t know what professionalism is even if their life depended on it, you do that and I’ll keep calling you stupid and dishonest.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Point is, one court said he could and one court disagreed so there was no “clearly established” guidelines to follow. Courts change their legal views all the time.

Well, that’s exactly the problem, you see.

If you need a mother fucking court to tell you that holding someone against their will vindictively is wrong, then you’re a fucking piece of shit that society is better off without.

I fail to understand if you’re arguing the cop is playing the fool, or he is that goddamn stupid. Either way, that vindictive dumbass shouldn’t be making decisions on how long before flipping a hamburger, much less decisions about people’s freedom.

Have some fucking standards. You make yourselves look incomptent and stupid, then scratch your heads when no one respects you.

David says:

Re: Re: Re:3

There is a not so thin line between “X is within their rights to do Y” and “X is right to do Y”.

It’s the task of a political and judicial system to not let those two drift too far apart. In the mean time, the former sentence says something about the law, the latter sentence says something about morality.

Sometimes conflating the two will derail a discussion, making it possible for two persons to violently disagree while both of them are right but employing different lenses on the same situation.

That is the kind of situation that trolls (the larval stage of demagogues) are pitching for, leaving disagreement in their wake even after they are gone.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

No, I”m merely informing you about this particular white supremacist asshole.

He HAS threatened a commenter here before. He deepthroats the boot so hard he shits boot polish.

I bet if given the choice, he WOULD abuse the fuck aout of QI.

Arguing with him is a fruitless gesture. He’s so pro-police it’s a given he’ll simp for pro-police positions.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Evidently you speak “fucking” so I will answer you in the language you understand.

If you need a mother fucking court to tell you that holding someone against their will vindictively is wrong, then you’re a fucking piece of shit that society is better off without.
I fail to understand if you’re arguing the cop is playing the fool, or he is that goddamn stupid. Either way, that vindictive dumbass shouldn’t be making decisions on how long before flipping a hamburger, much less decisions about people’s freedom.

Fucking jails are for fucking holding people against their fucking will. It happens all the mother fucking time. Once you are in the fucking jail, you follow the fucking process. This case happened over 9 fucking years ago. It is no fucking wonder that deputy Washburn doesn’t fucking remember Mr. Murphy or his fucking strip search.

Have some fucking standards. You make yourselves look incomptent and stupid, then scratch your heads when no one respects you.

Pull your head out of your fucking ass. The fucking courts had already ruled against the Mr. Murphy and probably will again. Do you want to tell me how you fucking remove Qualified Fucking Immunity once the fucking courts have already determined that deputy Washburn was within the law at the time? That is the fucking definition of Qualified Fucking Immunity.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

It is no fucking wonder that deputy Washburn doesn’t fucking remember Mr. Murphy or his fucking strip search

Welp, Contrary to Washburn’s assertion that he did not conduct the search, the Justification Sheet identifies him as the “Search Officer.” […] The absence of reasonable suspicion for the search, Washburn’s failure to properly document the search or indicate which superior officer approved it, the crude gesture he made after the search, and his comments about Murphy sitting in “my” jail “for a while” despite bail having been posted are all circumstances from which a reasonable jury could infer that Washburn was acting of his own volition and not pursuant to the orders of a superior.

Had deputy Washburn been a competent fucking sheriff, who did his fucking job per all these fucking procedures you’re babbling about, there wouldn’t be any fucking need to rely on this asshole’s fucking empty head. He got bit by his own fucking stupidity, and not doing your fucking job right isn’t a fucking excuse I’m willing to entertain.

If you want to give these incompetent fucktards QI for being incompetent, then you’re a fucking idiot, just like them. Ignorance of his fucking procedures isn’t a fucking excuse. Unless you want to give them QI because of ignorance of fucking precedent of the law, as well as what they’re supposed to know without a court explicitly telling them so.

Don’t be pissed at me because incompetence happened to result in a fucking asshole being called out for it. Your fucking QI defense shit the bed once this asshole didn’t follow his own fucking procedures.

Fucking dumbass. Is your fucking son this fucking stupid as well? Maybe he got that from you.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

Fucking dumbass. Is your fucking son this fucking stupid as well? Maybe he got that from you.

No, my son is getting out of policing. He loved the job and would have done it for free, but it has changed. In California you can steal up to $950 per day and it is a misdemeanor. There are about 300 people that are terrorizing an entire city. The police know who they are but when they arrest them the DA can’t or won’t do anything. Meanwhile stores are closing, prices are rising and people are scared. Those 300 people are the winners, the victors, and an example to the children on how to succeed in life.

When I visit my son, he makes sure I park in his driveway and take anything that appears valuable (even an empty box) out of my car.

BTW I quit speaking “fucking” when I got out of the Navy. You just come across as rude and stupid.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

No, my son is getting out of policing.

But he apparently hasn’t otherwise he wouldn’t be ‘getting out.’ Wassamatter? Trouble finding a private sector job that let’s you be a moron?

There are about 300 people that are terrorizing an entire city. The police know who they are but when they arrest them the DA can’t or won’t do anything.

So then they just stop arresting them? Since when is a DA consulted prior to arresting anyone? Since when should that matter? If a DA decides to not press charges, does that somehow give cops implicit permission to do nothing? Your excuses are getting more and more pathetic with each post.

When I visit my son, he makes sure I park in his driveway and take anything that appears valuable (even an empty box) out of my car.

That’s not a problem? A cop who can’t even protect his own home? Seems like your son is a useless dipshit too. One less do-nothing cop that no one will miss, if he ever ‘gets out’ that is.

BTW I quit speaking “fucking” when I got out of the Navy. You just come across as rude and stupid.

If I gave a shit about your opinion of me, that might matter. Tell you what, I’ll raise my fucking standards when you fucking raise yours.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Because the job of the police is based on the fact that they get paid to do it. What happens after that doesn’t excuse them from the job they signed on to do.

If you are asking why the police don’t still arrest those 300, it is because they will be back on the street before the cops can finish the paperwork. Meanwhile the other cops on the shift have to cover all the calls causing increased response time with no backup.

Then if it is less than $950 (which it will be, because some of them actually bring a calculator with them) it will be treated as a misdemeanor (like urinating in public). The DA won’t even look at it.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

If you are asking why the police don’t still arrest those 300, it is because they will be back on the street before the cops can finish the paperwork

Let me say it again, for the dense folks in the back…Whether or not they’re back on the street is irrelevant. Their job is to arrest, not determine what the punishment is.

Stay in your fucking lane.

Meanwhile the other cops on the shift have to cover all the calls causing increased response time with no backup.

That’s a management problem, and nothing for those on patrol to be resonsible for.

Again, stay in you goddamn fucking lane. Unless you want to be accountable when you don’t and fuck things up as a result.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Let me say it again, for the dense folks in the back…Whether or not they’re back on the street is irrelevant. Their job is to arrest, not determine what the punishment is.

So now you want the police to arrest people for a misdemeanor? Why, so Mr. Cushing can write another article about the police abusing the 4th and 14th amendment?

That’s a management problem, and nothing for those on patrol to be resonsible for.

The DA is telling the cops “Don’t waste my time”. Their captain, lieutenants and sergeants are saying “Don’t waste your time”.

Again, stay in you goddamn fucking lane. Unless you want to be accountable when you don’t and fuck things up as a result.

So the shoplifter points out that it is less than $950 and expects to get a ticket and be released, but you decide to drag him in despite being told not to. The shoplifter becomes furious, pulls out a knife and comes at you and you shoot him. Mr. Cushing has another story.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

So now you want the police to arrest people for a misdemeanor?

If it’s an arrestable offense.

The DA is telling the cops “Don’t waste my time”. Their captain, lieutenants and sergeants are saying “Don’t waste your time”.

Following an ‘order’ that says ‘don’t do your job?’ Yeah, right. Go pull someone else’s fucking leg. If that was actually policy, prisons wouldn’t be overflowing with occupants. Sorry, but I’m gonna need a citation for that because the math isn’t adding up.

So the shoplifter points out that it is less than $950 and expects to get a ticket and be released, but you decide to drag him in despite being told not to.

Again, cops aren’t required to know the laws they’re enforcing, despite being called ‘law enforcement’ officers. That’s for the DA to decide – if police don’t want to be expected to know the law, then why should we pretend that they would have any discretion here?

Can’t have it both ways.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

Again, cops aren’t required to know the laws they’re enforcing, despite being called ‘law enforcement’ officers. That’s for the DA to decide – if police don’t want to be expected to know the law, then why should we pretend that they would have any discretion here?

They have discretion to follow their orders or not. But not following orders could get you fired.

The DA, the captain and lieutenants would respond that “we want as many police officers out on the street as we can get’. They don’t want police officers doing paperwork on a misdemeanor while someone is waiting for 30 minutes with a prowler in their house.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

So far, so innocuous. Misdemeanor offenses. Code enforcement. Bench warrant. All of this should have been settled quickly, quietly, and without a strip search. Instead, officers handcuffed Murphy to a waist chain and sat him down in City Hall to wait to see a judge.

Misdemeanor offenses…

They have discretion to follow their orders or not.

You don’t say?

The DA, the captain and lieutenants would respond that “we want as many police officers out on the street as we can get’. They don’t want police officers doing paperwork on a misdemeanor while someone is waiting for 30 minutes with a prowler in their house.

Imagine that.

Had they exercised discretion, they wouldn’t be in the trouble that they’re in now.

Try again.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Had they exercised discretion, they wouldn’t be in the trouble that they’re in now.

If you are talking about Deputy Washburn.

As far as I can see Deputy Washburn isn’t in trouble now. We have to respect the decision of the 1st court that said neither the strip search nor the 2-hour wait were a violation of his rights Mr. Murphy’s rights.

In fact there is no proof that Washburn even performed the strip search. Washburn denied doing the search and only answered in the hypothetical that it would have been ordered.

Four years after that first verdict and nine years after the event, I’m not sure a jury would rely that heavily on the memory of a 76-year-old man. I’m 72 and I can remember 50 years ago like it was a week ago, but 10 years ago is very fuzzy.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

In fact there is no proof that Washburn even performed the strip search.

Welp, there’s this…

Contrary to Washburn’s assertion that he did not conduct the search, the Justification Sheet identifies him as the “Search Officer.”

And this, which doesn’t appear to require Washburn to recall anything…

And when another officer noted that Murphy’s bail was “out there” and they needed “to cut him loose,” Washburn responded in a manner that could be understood to exhibit malice by saying that Murphy would not be going anywhere and was going to sit in “my” jail “for a while.” On these facts, a reasonable jury could readily conclude that Washburn was acting not to further legitimate penological concerns but purely out of vindictiveness.

And also disingenuous of you to think time is significant here, but not WRT Mr. Murphy.

Four years after that first verdict and nine years after the event

It seems like if the courts decided to revisit it after all this time, someone thinks Mr. Murphy’s time was important.

And then there’s this that you said earlier:

So far only two decisions have been made. One giving the deputy QI and the other giving Mr. Murphy the right to appeal that decision. I respect them both. Do you?

Along with this above:

We have to respect the decision of the 1st court that said neither the strip search nor the 2-hour wait were a violation of his rights Mr. Murphy’s rights.

I don’t see any respect for that 2nd decision here. So fuck you. You’re a disingenuous asshole talking in circles, cherry picking court decisions based whichever is most favorable to some fuckhead cop.

Maybe get your bullshit straight before you continue to make yourself look like a dumbass. Maybe review your own comment history, like you said to someone else in this thread. It’d help you look less the fool.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

I don’t see any respect for that 2nd decision here. So fuck you. You’re a disingenuous asshole talking in circles, cherry picking court decisions based whichever is most favorable to some fuckhead cop.

Maybe get your bullshit straight before you continue to make yourself look like a dumbass. Maybe review your own comment history, like you said to someone else in this thread. It’d help you look less the fool.

I’ve answered this in your native language before.

Pull your head out of your fucking ass. The fucking courts had already ruled against the Mr. Murphy and probably will again. Do you want to tell me how you fucking remove Qualified Fucking Immunity once the fucking courts have already determined that deputy Washburn was within the law at the time? That is the fucking definition of Qualified Fucking Immunity.

What’s wrong? Didn’t I use enough “fuckings” or is it the fact you have frogshit for brains.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

I’ve answered this in your native language before.

Clearly the only language you speak is violence and rape when you don’t get the results you want.

You’re all for procedure up until the point where police actually have to get warrants or their random strip searches don’t get okayed by a judge.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Awwww, wassamaater dave?

Are you resorting to pounding on the table now since that bitchslapping comment before called your bullshit out line by line?

Don’t be mad, kiddo. You’re full of shit and everyone already knows. You’re not fucking fooling anyone, fuckwit. Take some advice and quit making yourself look like a fool.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Take some advice and quit making yourself look like a fool.

You’re talking to the guy who spent the post-Chauvin years bitching about people angry at Chauvin.

It took him another six months after Chauvin’s arrest and conviction before he reluctantly, grudgingly, said that Chauvin held some responsibility.

davec failed the whole “don’t look like a fool” quest a long time ago.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Aaaaand he’s back to the same old apologism.

Man, you and davec really need to get over your initial shyness and get a room. It’s 2023, you two can fuck and no one besides the conservatives you want to curry favor with will bat an eyelid.

If you promise not to use lube maybe davec will ask his son to strip search you too.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Go get laid buddy. Stop projecting your relationship failures on others.

You’re the one here with years of desperate flirtations trying to get the Republicans to notice you with how much you’ve been flogging yourself for their sake.

People read up on your comment histories. It’s not hard. You’d rather see a ten year old get arrested on the orders of her bully’s parents than have the police inconvenienced.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

trying to get the Republicans to notice

I could not care less either way on them or democrats.
I vote for my personal priorities regardless of party. If my priorities are different than yours, that’s the way life works.

But I’m not the one running around with sexual innuendo and fucking this and fucking that. Appears to me, you have some issues to work out in your own. Or more likely, with a partner.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I could not care less either way on them or democrats.

He said while whining about Democrats fucking everything up for him.

I vote for my personal priorities regardless of party. If my priorities are different than yours, that’s the way life works.

And it turns out that your priorities aren’t as respected because they’re fucked up just like you are. That’s the way life works.

But I’m not the one running around with sexual innuendo and fucking this and fucking that.

You’re the one here defending power trip fantasy bullies. The kind who eventually make it onto YouTube channels like Explore With Us or 48 Hours. The sexual innuendo is speaking your language. If you don’t like it don’t be such an obvious ass and maybe people will start worshipping your shadow like you want them to.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I don’t expect the police to protect me. I expect them to uphold the law.
I have no argument against the misuse of force and the growing criminal element within law enforcement. There’s a clear problem.
And such problems need to be dealt with.

But I’m also not going to pretend that abolishing law enforcement is the answer. Every Democrat that votes to defund the police (sans one) has done an about face when confronted with crime themselves.

And I’ve picked at qualified immunity myself many times. It was implemented as a domestic protection for bystander stupidity. Based on battlefield immunity. Designed to both protect from a round going through a criminal suspect, and bystanders not using commons sense.
It has become a blanket shield.
And that shield is why we have today’s mess of internal crime.
Especially with much of the police force being former military.
Qualified immunity has destroyed the notion of one shot one kill.
I don’t, directly, blame the police for this. Cops get trained and roped into an existence where they are told to defend themselves at any cost. Too many have taken that, and their judicial shield, to mean dump 20 rounds in the general direction of the suspect.

Footage from last week in Arkansas shows a bystander roped into a situation, told to toss his legal weapon aside. Then get shot, for tossing his legal weapon the wrong way.

But there’s multiple issues and problems. The idea of “defund the police” is reactionary stupidity and creates the no-go-zone situations you get in California, Seattle, Chicago. Free fire zones where crime rules and law is non-existent.

I see two solutions.
A total and complete reconditioning of all law enforcement
Or
The international non-European style of federal police replacing all local forces.

I tend to support the second. Because I’ve seen it work and feel far safer in most of those countries than here in the US.. (you can skip over the bad-government talking point, I get it, and consider it a rounding error level concern).
But only a complete idiot, or a criminal, truly wants no law enforcement.
We need a complete and substantial change. Yes. Bit to gut the system and cross your fingers is just as stupid as maintaining the status quo.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

I don’t expect the police to protect me.

Me neither. That’s why I own a gun. Since they argued before the courts that they have no duty to protect, why would I rely on them for that? I’ve seen them in action at Uvalde and that’s why they’re useless. Try to keep up, will ya?

I expect them to uphold the law.

You mean the laws that they’re not required to know the intricacies of? Like davec, you really should get some fucking standards.

Reconciling what you said with reality is a circle jerk among a bunch of stupids.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

There are plenty of countries (and urban areas in this country) that have no police presence. Feel free to move there.
I would prefer not to be forced into a Judge Dredd position.
Our local police force is fairly reliable and responsible. Others are not so much.
Like I said, we need an overhaul.

You owning a gun is somewhat scary with your public mentality. You present yourself as the same ilk as bad cops: shoot first ask questions later. People like myself, we do what we have to. I’d rather you and in both live. I’m generally against the death penalty. Be it executive or civil in application.
I don’t want to kill anyone. But I’ll do what I must to protect my family, my friends, and myself.
I shouldn’t have to.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Feel free to move there.

I don’t want to move, I just want a refund when the services I pay for via taxes isn’t done right. That’s not too much to ask is it? Would you pay for a filet mignon, if you get ground chuck instead?

Like I said, we need an overhaul.

Don’t tell me – tell the assholes who fight against it tooth and nail (yep, davec – i”m looking at you, boy).

You present yourself as the same ilk as bad cops: shoot first ask questions later

AKA thinking like a cop.

That’s a product that police unreliability and their internal desire to keep things as they are. I’m just relying on myself rather than some roided-up dumbass, who has no obligations at all other than to protect himself/herself. If you want to take your chances, by all means go ahead. Maybe if you apologists found yourselves on the working end of all these articles, you might consider the same, assuming you survive the encounter.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

But I’m also not going to pretend that abolishing law enforcement is the answer. Every Democrat that votes to defund the police (sans one) has done an about face when confronted with crime themselves.

You guys really keep trying to hold onto the “buhhhh the dems want to take away police salaries and forces!” argument like it was meant literally.

Your heroes in the police force keep getting funded and absolutely none of that goes into meaningful training, it mostly goes into military surplus weaponry so you can feel like big boys with big toys like you’re back in kindergarten again.

You abuse your privileges, you get them taken away.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:14

like it was meant literally.

Well, seeing how the police abolishment movement is regularly saying that, specifically, yes, that is what I walk away with.
Seeing towns and cities not just vote, but actually literally abolish law enforcement, yes.

Your heroes in the police

Didn’t I just post saying I thought all local law enforcement should be replaced with a national federal police force?

With new training and strict rules in place.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Well, seeing how the police abolishment movement is regularly saying that, specifically, yes, that is what I walk away with.

Your shtick of blurring the lines between the group saying “Maybe the cops shouldn’t be able to afford military surplus” with the imaginary group in your head saying “black thugs should rule the streets” was cute maybe a few years ago, now it’s just boring and tiresome.

With new training and strict rules in place.

Based on your track record you’ll be in first in line to blame the police abolishment movement again when inevitably some jackass cop complains about being inconvenienced over having to actually put some thought into where he’s aiming for a change. I’m not holding my breath.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:16

imaginary

Except it’s not. It’s happening. Towns across the country are either completely cutting funding or outright dismantling the police.
That the problem with this “rhetoric”.
Some people really want exactly that.

you’ll be in first in line

You’re entitled to your opinion. But you’ll find my comment history filled with wrf complaints about how QI has killed any restraint. Complaints that they have fully automatic weapons of war. Not utilising less lethal options more completely.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Some people really want exactly that.

Ah, yes, the “ANTIFA” excuse or the “far left” existing… of which you have absolutely no proof that they exist. But holy shit you’ll gobble up every nutsack of every Republican if their reputation gets briefly besmirched or if Donny Trump is ever mildly inconvenienced.

You’re entitled to your opinion. But you’ll find my comment history filled with wrf complaints about how QI has killed any restraint

Your comment history in this very thread has you sympathizing with davec over anyone else.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“I didn’t know I’m not supposed to violate people.”
-cops

100 per cent of the people who can’t make bail and are held over are strip searched prior to being put into the population with other prisoners. That is not a violation that is a safety procedure. If Washburn followed those procedures as he was trained to do then he has qualified immunity. If those procedures were found to violate the law, Washburn would still be covered. If he violated those procedures then he is not protected.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

You are overlooking:-

As Murphy was being fingerprinted, Gunderman said to him “[y]our bail’s sitting out there and we’re going to cut you loose” or “[w]e’ve got to cut you loose.” Gunderman also said that

That alone indicates vindictive action, rather than follwoing and rules or procedures.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

Seems like enough people knew how much of an incompetent dickhead Washburn was. That he seemed to forget is convenient.

Try killing someone and see if you get off by not remembering?

These desperate attempts to defend this dick are why no one respects you. Being stupid and incompetent doesn’t command respect. All you’re doing is making it more difficult for the next generation of police by advocating that they be as dumb as they can possibly fucking be.

Great look, dumbass.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

It wasn’t vindictive, it was the procedure.

Funny how you start bitching and moaning about the procedure when cops start tasering randos with their revolvers.

Cops get punished according to procedure. Suddenly that’s vindictive? No wonder you got so angry about Chauvin getting punished. You don’t believe in procedure unless it’s about some cop getting fellated.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

After about an hour, and about an hour before Murphy was due back in court, the Booking and Admissions Officer — defendant-appellee William Washburn — removed him from the cell.

WRT the commenter above, the strip search happened after about an hour. I take it putting him in the cell an hour earlier, there was no need for a strip search. But once he was out of the cell, after being in their custody, then it was a safety thing.

Making shit up to an excuse an obvious asshole is why these articles keep appearing. Try and see the point because you’re aguring in favor of a bunch of incompetent jerks. Is that who you want keeping you safe, or do you need to be on the working end of this bullshit to get it?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Would you like to be stripped and have a cavity search if you couldn’t make bail for whatever reason, but a friend came in to make bail, but the police wouldn’t release you because they had a hair up their bum?
Are you willing to follow through with that?

If this is addressed to me, nobody likes being in jail or stripped searched.
In my case, I refused to bail out as a matter of principle and told the judge if he could get me to court the next day, I would spend the night in jail (I had just turned 21). The judge released me at 9am next day but I didn’t get processed out until after 1pm. Once you get in, it is just a bureaucratic assembly line.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“the people who can’t make bail”

and this is a big part of our problems.

Hypothetically, two people commit the same exact crime ..
One goes home to a nice dinner while the other is strip searched, possibly molested and/or beaten while spending the next number of days awaiting their arraignment.

Equal justice under the law?
I don’t think so.

Not only is our justice system corrupt, tilted, whatever you want to call it but our system of remuneration is outrageous. Someone working full time should not be living in poverty, lack adequate healthcare or be subjected to unnecessary violence perpetrated by the state.

“That is not a violation”

Exactly .. it is condoned .. by you and many others that look the other way so to speak.

This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it.

davec (profile) says:

Re:

Washburn is a sadist, a pervert and a liar and belong in “his” jail. Just not as a guard.

got it.

The district court granted summary judgment in favor of defendants-appellees, holding that (1) the search was constitutional and the searching officer was entitled to qualified immunity, and (2) the two-hour delay in plaintiff-appellant’s release did not rise to the level of a constitutional violation.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

So what?

The appeals court said otherwise. Should all appeals court decisions be considered wrong? Or only the ones that affect asshole cops who suck at their jobs?

He’ll have his day in court again – don’t worry. This is just the justice system at work – the same one he’s part of. You should respect that, given your propensity to advocate for the ‘cop’ part of it, no?

It’s not like cops can never be wrong, right?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The appeals court said otherwise. Should all appeals court decisions be considered wrong? Or only the ones that affect asshole cops who suck at their jobs?
He’ll have his day in court again – don’t worry. This is just the justice system at work – the same one he’s part of. You should respect that, given your propensity to advocate for the ‘cop’ part of it, no?

So far only two decisions have been made. One giving the deputy QI and the other giving Mr. Murphy the right to appeal that decision. I respect them both. Do you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I respect them both. Do you?

I respect a police officer who doesn’t dissemble or give statements that are evasive or pure lies, who performs his duties professionally and who report any misdeeds done by his colleges – because any officer who doesn’t report those who misuse their office, breaks the law and victimizes civilians are just as guilty as any criminal.

I also understand that many police officers aren’t fit for the uniform they wear and I also understand that defending such police officers behavior just because they are police officers are stupid and contra-productive. I also understand that some people are entirely convinced that there are no bad police officers which is why they can only defend the bad behavior in the police force by laying the blame on the victims of any police abuse.

Do you?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

the other giving Mr. Murphy the right to appeal that decision. I respect them both. Do you?

No, you don’t respect them both.

I’m not the one who said: What evidence??? Only Mr. Murphy’s word 3 years after the event.

or The fucking courts had already ruled against the Mr. Murphy and probably will again. Do you want to tell me how you fucking remove Qualified Fucking Immunity once the fucking courts have already determined that deputy Washburn was within the law at the time? That is the fucking definition of Qualified Fucking Immunity.

So no, you don’t, you disingenuous asshole. Your respect amounts to the cop is right, and if he isn’t the court is wrong. Try to keep better inventory of your bullshit.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

So no, you don’t, you disingenuous asshole. Your respect amounts to the cop is right, and if he isn’t the court is wrong. Try to keep better inventory of your bullshit.

So you respect the opinion of the 1st court and believe that (1) the search was constitutional, and the searching officer was entitled to qualified immunity, and (2) the two-hour delay in plaintiff-appellant’s release did not rise to the level of a constitutional violation.

Good so do I.

You respect the opinion of the 2nd court which granted Mr. Murphy an appeal based on later interpretation of the 14th amendment.

Good so do I.

BTW the reason for granting the appeal was because of a case in which there were delays of 9 hours, 18 hours and 23 hours between posting bail and being released. Not the 2 hours that Mr. Murphy endured.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:4

BTW the reason for granting the appeal was because of a case in which there were delays of 9 hours, 18 hours and 23 hours between posting bail and being released. Not the 2 hours that Mr. Murphy endured.

Blah, blah, blah and you get stright to undermining the appeals court.

Don’t keep telling me about respecting the court when you keep undermining it yourself.

davec (profile) says:

Ok .. why would this mean the end of the middle class?

The super rich who can afford to protect their assets. They can afford gated communities and private security. Without the police, the Middle class will see its assets, business, schools, plundered and unprotected. Companies will fail, jobs will be lost, the Middle class will get poorer and poorer until it also becomes poor.

When we see the looting, our first question is “where are the cops?” “Why are they so understaffed?”

When you come home and see your neighborhood has been claimed by a gang selling drugs and you have to ask their permission to go to your house. You can’t sell your house and leave because no one would ever buy it. You can’t complain because you would probably get killed before anyone could help you. Then the gang members setup shop on your front porch and recruit your children to help sell their drugs. Then your children are killed by a rival gang.

This all sounds like an exaggeration but it has already happened before, it is happening now and it is a constant battle to prevent it from becoming permanent. When there are no police or the police are overwhelmed, or even if the police just feel like a fool for even being a cop, it will become permanent.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

“This all sounds like an exaggeration”

Yes .. yes it does.

I have read that many in the neighborhoods are more afraid of the cops than they are of the street gangs.

I have also read that the mob takes better care of the neighborhoods than the local government.

It seems to me that the politics of bullshit (low wage and no healthcare) is eliminating the middle class at a much higher rate than your doomsville fiction story would.

Maybe I am reading bullshit .. I don’t think so.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

“This all sounds like an exaggeration”
Yes .. yes it does.
I have read that many in the neighborhoods are more afraid of the cops than they are of the street gangs.

Many Black activist and White liberals are against the police, but the Black people in Oakland (for instance) are scared and demanding an end to the lawlessness. Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago, are all experiencing decline and high crime.

Auto thefts and assaults have doubled in 2023 as compared to the same time frame in 2019, while carjackings tripled. Murders are trending upward as well. This spike has led to the Oakland NAACP branch to call for a state of emergency last month.Aug 7, 2023

I have also read that the mob takes better care of the neighborhoods than the local government.

I’m not sure who the “mob” is. I know the cartels are one of the largest employers in Mexico and yes that could happen here. The government’s main job is to provide safety and security and when they can’t provide that, they have little chance of providing anything else.

It seems to me that the politics of bullshit (low wage and no healthcare) is eliminating the middle class at a much higher rate than your doomsville fiction story would.
Maybe I am reading bullshit .. I don’t think so.

I’ve lived in Middle Class and Poor neighborhoods. I would much rather live in a Poor neighborhood where there was little crime than in a Middle Class neighborhood plagued by break-ins, and vandalism. That is rarely the choice though. Poverty causes crime and crime causes poverty. Poor neighborhoods with low crime become gentrified and values rise to Middle class whereas Middle Class neighborhoods with high crime become Poor neighborhoods. There are lots of examples.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

“Poverty causes crime and crime causes poverty”

You are very ignorant.

Poverty is not some simpleton quip you copied from some ultra right wing idiot who knows little about what they speak. Your propaganda is well known bullshit.

Hey … did they ever find Reagan’s welfare queen?

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Poverty is not some simpleton quip you copied from some ultra right wing idiot who knows little about what they speak. Your propaganda is well known bullshit.

Father was a gardener who never finished the 7th grade, my mom was a waitress. They were great wonderful people, but we were poor.

Hey … did they ever find Reagan’s welfare queen?

Yes. She was wearing a mink coat, all dressed up for the club, hair and nails. She was in the supermarket trying to buy something with food stamps.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

Without the police, the Middle class will see its assets, business, schools, plundered and unprotected.

Ahhh, yes – so tell me, if a shitload of police can’t protect a small community like Uvalde, what makes you think these self-preserving chicken shits will do anything apart from run to the hills if something like that goes down?

A lack of faith in police are a reason I own a gun. You might consider how this plays out with a well-armed populace, as gun sales are through the roof, and have been for a few years now.

Putting your security in the hands of police, who have argued for years that they have no obligation to protect you isn’t the powerful argument you think it is. And it’s the police’s fault for that.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Ahhh, yes – so tell me, if a shitload of police can’t protect a small community like Uvalde, what makes you think these self-preserving chicken shits will do anything apart from run to the hills if something like that goes down?
A lack of faith in police are a reason I own a gun. You might consider how this plays out with a well-armed populace, as gun sales are through the roof, and have been for a few years now.
Putting your security in the hands of police, who have argued for years that they have no obligation to protect you isn’t the powerful argument you think it is. And it’s the police’s fault for that.

You really sound demented. Like you want to do something. Why haven’t you?

I don’t expect the police to protect me, I expect them to bring those that break the law to justice, and I expect the justice system to punish them.

That is what probably keeps you from doing something.

Ockham's Stubble (profile) says:

Cops already do 'justice' on their own

What happened to “you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride”? (Or, “just a warning this time, drive safe ok?”) Cops always have taken it upon themselves to mete out justice as they saw it, regardless of the rest of the process.

Having a DA whose priorities don’t match up with cops is an issue, but it’s nothing new and not an excuse to down tools or go rogue. It’s fine if your son feels his job has changed underneath him and he wants out, but save us all the “won’t someone think of the cops” sob story. It simply doesn’t sound sincere.

davec (profile) says:

Re:

Having a DA whose priorities don’t match up with cops is an issue, but it’s nothing new and not an excuse to down tools or go rogue. It’s fine if your son feels his job has changed underneath him and he wants out, but save us all the “won’t someone think of the cops” sob story. It simply doesn’t sound sincere.

My son once told me “just getting that one or two guys off the street, you can feel difference. Everyone breaths easier”. That was why he said he would do the job for free.

That was before they passed Prop 47 to allow people to steal up to $950. Allowing the homeless to camp on the streets and in the park with no facilities turned parts of the city into sewers. Most of these homeless had some kind of drug addiction so the dealers knew where to set up shop and since people could steal without going to jail, they had the means to support their habit. They can now stay high until they die.

When you see how it was and how it is, it’s heartbreaking. When you know what caused it and you’re not allowed to fix it, it is an unacceptable frustration. He is no longer on patrol and has been working in tech for the last 3 years.

9 months 13 days until retirement.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

You’ve been whining about your son having to work a job like the rest of us normies for how many years now?

Your idea of “fixing it” is a shower of bullets and hoping the imaginary sky friend figures out who gets to Heaven or Hell.

You know, maybe if you weren’t so relentlessly trigger happy, people might actually trust you to have an actual solution. As things are right now homeowners would be right to assume that the cop is probably going to gun them down before the burglar is. That’s on you.

davec (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You know, maybe if you weren’t so relentlessly trigger happy, people might actually trust you to have an actual solution. As things are right now homeowners would be right to assume that the cop is probably going to gun them down before the burglar is. That’s on you.

It doesn’t seem to matter whether the cops are proactive or passive. If there are lots of police or if they are understaffed. Whether crime is on the rise or falling. The cops kill between 1000 and 1100 people a year. In a country with a population of 332 million with more guns than people. So far in 2023 we have 827 people killed and we are on track to match that. While we could all agree that number is too high, it just doesn’t seem to change no matter what policies are followed.

Far worse killers than the police.

Deaths by medical mistakes fall between 250,000 and 400,00.
Deaths by drug overdose in 2022 were 107,081.
Murders in 2022 were 6452
Drownings 3500 to 4000.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

You left out those that died by lightning strikes: 719.
Guess we should ban lightning.

Extremest democrats created this mess. What used to be a rural and suburban trend, armed protective home owners, is now a 2:1 national statistic. When cops get the data wrong, they get shot. Then the residents get shot in response.
This is the vigilantism that they have pushed. Maybe that’s the goal? I don’t know.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Extremest democrats created this mess. What used to be a rural and suburban trend, armed protective home owners, is now a 2:1 national statistic.

Oh yeah, it’s the democrats advocating for consitutional carry, and the republican calling for weapons bans. Take that ass-backwards horseshit somewhere else. You wanted guns to be ubiquitous, and now they are.

This is the vigilantism that they have pushed. Maybe that’s the goal? I don’t know.

When the police unions argued that cops cannot be expected to know the laws they enforce and not having a duty to protect, what did you think was going to happen?

Police stupidity and incompetence argued by the misfits who run their unions did them in. You’ve got no one but yourselves to blame. Next time, don’t advocate for making yourselves obsolete.

LostInLoDOS (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I support open carry and the full arming of our country’s law abiding citizens. Yes. I’m against concealed carry.
I see no problem with law abiding citizens carrying a fire arm. Despite the slanted nonsense the NYT printed today, Thailand has among the largest weapons ownership rates in the world and one of the lowest gun-crime rates.

The problems, here, are poor police training and lack of proper discipline for criminal actors. I’ve spent time in countries where the only police force is a national police force AND high weapons ownership. And I feel quite safe there. The police don’t dump hundreds of rounds into the petty criminal and criminals don’t get released an hour after the crime.

The problem IS most definitely democrats on the crime issues and police issues.
The dumping of mass amounts of criminals back into the streets, coupled with reduced wages, has caused the majority of police, that is quality cops that care about the community, to quit. What the democrats have caused, to be left behind, is the bad cops. And. One with desperate shortages the bar is being lowered to allow more bully-type entrants
They are creating their own narrative. Good cops quit. Bad cops replace them. Etc.

As for unions, my history is searchable. I despise them. There does not exist a good union today. Every song one is bad.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Despite the slanted nonsense the NYT printed today, Thailand has among the largest weapons ownership rates in the world and one of the lowest gun-crime rates.

And lemme guess – the cops know their place there? Because that’s what they’re in for with more constitutional carry laws in the States. That’s the irony that they’re too obtuse to see. It’s not gonna be easy to be an asshole when the person on the working end of it can shoot back.

The dumping of mass amounts of criminals back into the streets

As opposed to have to feed and warehouse them? Consider that when thinking about welfare benefits being decimated. See what’s cheaper – letting them have their foodstamps or paying a bunch of roid-raving idiots to watch them.

coupled with reduced wages, has caused the majority of police, that is quality cops that care about the community, to quit.

You think that’s it? Name one private sector job where you can retire at 45 with a full pension and benefits. Reduced wages your fucking ass. Send those who aren’t happy to the private sector and let them not get state-funded welfare and see if they like it better.

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