The Writers’ Strike Makes Sense; Their Demands About AI, However, Do Not

from the let-chatgpt-get-rid-of-the-boring-parts dept

The Writers Guild of America (WGA) is on strike again. Given how much writers contribute to the entire entertainment ecosystem—every satisfying cinematic moment begins its life on the written page—the WGA is asking studios to grant professional writers a reasonable slice of Hollywood’s huge profit pie: a higher minimum wage across all media, higher contributions to benefits, more residuals for streaming. Basically, the same story as writers’ strikes from years past. And, let’s face it: the studios can afford it. Nearly all the WGA’s requests seem sensible, and worth striking over. As such, the overall strike seems righteous.

However, the WGA is also asking Hollywood to “regulate use of artificial intelligence on MBA-covered projects: AI can’t write or rewrite literary material; can’t be used as source material; and MBA-covered material can’t be used to train AI.

The studios’ response? Let’s talk about it next year. (Given the exponential growth of AI in just the last two months, an entire year will feel like a century, and the studios know this, but that’s beside the point.)

The WGA speaks for at least a majority of writers in its guild, and that majority is dead wrong about AI. Perhaps it’s a negotiation tactic to walk back from, but even so, it is a disappointingly myopic starting point. Imagine if someone had just invented flight and the response was, “That’s cool, but we like cars; road trips are more fun. So let’s ban planes.”

The first airplanes were flimsy, I’ll give you that. And dangerous as hell. But come on… surely anyone can see the long-term potential. Why would you prevent people from using the latest and greatest tools? Because using better tools for faster results… has less value?

Let’s stop for a moment to catalog what professional screenwriters actually do.

Screenwriters pick a genre, then create a basic plot. They flesh out a brief synopsis (called a “logline”), a list of character names, a longer and more detailed synopsis (called a “treatment”), and a list of story “beats”, i.e., critical story junctures. Maybe a list of “must have” shots, too.

I’ve personally done all these things. It’s hard. It’s grunt work. It takes time—many days and often weeks, and sometimes months—to get all of it right, to make sure it lands, that all the parts work in harmony with each other. You add, you take away, you agonize, you celebrate… In the end, you trade 2-12 weeks of your life but finally, the hard part is over. Now you can shop the story around town hoping someone will pay you to write the actual screenplay.

With ChatGPT (the free version which anyone can access), I can collapse those days/weeks/months of hard work into just three minutes.

From weeks/months… to minutes.

You don’t have to be a studio producer to see the value here. Not only does AI save time, but it saves costs, as well.

Oh, you don’t like my pitch? Bummer. Just give me three minutes and I’ll give you another one. Or another. Or 10 more just like it.

AI is a screenwriter’s superpower which pancakes all that boring grunt work so writers can iterate faster and spend more time on the really fun part—actually writing the scenes. Is something lost in that process? Maybe. What’s gained, though? The part that’s gained is surely far greater than what’s lost. Perhaps this is why Ashton Kutcher is warning companies to embrace AI or “You’re probably Going to Be Out of Business“.

The WGA is concerned their members will be asked to do more and be paid less, and the WGA might be right. Times are changing. Better tools always remove inefficiencies in the market and removing those redundancies makes room for more nimble competitors: writers copiously using AI will be able to do more than those who don’t.

The WGA is not advocating for a better entertainment system—which would mean better stories coming out more quickly—though that would be great for consumers. Instead, the WGA’s directive is to protect its members. By painting AI as the bogeyman, the WGA is only delaying the inevitable. And they make themselves obsolete along the way.

In 1986, British print unions went on strike. Their members used hot-metal Linotype to lay out newspapers, and the strike was to protest the newly installed desktop computers which let journalists type in their own articles, thereby rendering expensive Linotype printers obsolete. In retrospect, desktop computers were obviously more efficient than Linotype printers, but print unions fought against computers to keep their members from losing their (now obsolete) job. Although this strike lasted a whole year, nothing changed. If anything, desktop computers got even better. The British print unions weren’t trying to make a more efficient printing business, though that was better for consumers; unions only protect their members, often at the expense of creating a more efficient business.

Innovative disruption ends with obsolete jobs being removed from the industry. Will some writers lose their jobs to AI bots? Perhaps. Should they lose their jobs? Yes—if their job can be done better by AI. This is the bitter truth nobody in the WGA dare speak aloud.

There is some good news. AI, as it currently exists, is still not perfect; users still need to understand how to craft a prompt to coax decent results out of ChatGPT. The best writers probably wouldn’t even use AI to write entire scripts (yet)—instead, they’ll use AI as an expeditious collaborative partner to iterate routine actions on the fly:

“Give me five versions of this scene.” 

“Give me 10 alternate endings.”

“Give me an iconic character like Keyser Söze with a 3 page background story.”

“Give me something that’s never been done before.”

Ironically, the one thing AI-generated content lacks clarity about is the one thing that will protect WGA members the most—AI-generated content isn’t currently protected by copyright. What studio would invest millions of dollars into an intellectual property they couldn’t lock down with copyright protection?

We haven’t even covered the question of what copyrighted material the AI has been trained on—given the explosion of new content from AI bots, how could anyone ferret out potential copyright violations? Obviously, you’d need to have AI bots scouring for copyright infringement… oh, the irony. All told, human writers might be the safer bet simply because they’re a known risk, legally speaking.

The WGA needs to think of AI like the early days of avionics. At the start of the 20th century, the plane in its current design was highly unreliable, untested, and unsafe. It might take you from New York to New Jersey, but you might also crash along the way. Yet just two decades later, planes would turn the tide of world wars.

Moreover, in the 19th century, it took six weeks to sail across the Atlantic Ocean. In bad weather, it could take fourteen weeks. By 1919, it took a single day to cross the Atlantic Ocean by airplane. Certainly, flying by plane wasn’t the same experience as boarding a ship for weeks on end—that luxurious time aboard a cruise ship was lost. Yet on that single day in 1919, life got faster. We could still take a six week cruise ship if we wanted, but faster options were now available, at last.

Professional screenwriters finally have a superpower to collapse their time doing boring grunt work from months into mere minutes.

And their own union won’t let them use it.

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Comments on “The Writers’ Strike Makes Sense; Their Demands About AI, However, Do Not”

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TKnarr (profile) says:

The statements about compressing lots of work into a short time writing prompts is exactly why the WGA has those conditions about AI in their demands. The studios already do this: hire half-a-dozen writers for 4 weeks to sit and come up with ideas for scripts, then let the writers go and leave the single showrunner to turn those ideas into actual shooting scripts. Saves the studio the cost of hiring half-a-dozen writers for the entire season to write the scripts. If AI is allowed without conditions, the result will be the studios hiring half-a-dozen writers for 2 weeks to come up with prompts for the AI, then letting the writers go and having the showrunner use the prompts to have the AI write the scripts. The effects of this on show quality will be entirely predictable.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re:

The effects of this on show quality will be entirely predictable.

Will it?

If a human writer outputs formulaic crap that is of no better quality than AI-created formulaic crap, such that a viewer couldn’t tell the difference, why pay the writer?

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

If a human writer outputs formulaic crap that is of no better quality than AI-created formulaic crap, such that a viewer couldn’t tell the difference, why pay the writer?

Because the writer actually put effort and time into writing their crap. Also: Writers, no matter how bad, still need to pay for things like food and rent.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

This would not be the first time that technology eliminated jobs for all but the very best

That’s the problem here: This technology can eliminate jobs and the need to be a patron of an actual flesh-and-blood artist. In the furry fandom alone, AI-generated images⁠—should they catch on to the point where people stop buying commissions⁠—could destroy a lot of artists’ income because their skills won’t be “needed” to produce art of generic-ass anthro fox twinks getting railed by…well, you get the picture.

You want to talk about hobbies? For a lot of artists, their hobby is also a way to make money. What AI enthusiasts propose, regardless of whether they realize they’re doing so or even want to do so, is to destroy even that because “TeChNoLoGy!!!1!” And your sole consolation for this is to tell artists that they should “find a day job”.

What in the actual godforsaken fuck.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Well, I mean… the advent of cars led to a lot of buggy coachmen losing their jobs. I’m sure at the time, it was being argued that those jobs shouldn’t be taken away because of “TeChNoLoGy!!!1!”

If AI art/writing advances to the point that it can render human artists/writers obsolete, isn’t it kinda the same thing?

I’m not sure where you stand on the buggy coachman vs. automobile issue, but as it applies to human vs. AI art in this case, it seems that you support the coachman. I’m not saying your wrong to do so, but I wonder if you fall on the same side of the issue in other areas of “jobs lost to technological advances?”

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I think you got the most important point I was trying to make. A lot of people think I’m all about Eff the writers, too bad for them, blah blah blah. I’m not. I love writers, and think they deserve to earn a decent living.

But they’re going to lose the battle sooner or later. They are coachmen in your analogy.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You’re right, but there are two more similar questions to ask:

If a human writer outputs formulaic crap that is of no better quality than AI-created formulaic crap, such that a viewer couldn’t tell the difference, why
[continue to keep the writer]?

You kind of answered this one. Unions exist because of this very question.

If a human writer outputs formulaic crap that is of no better quality than AI-created formulaic crap, such that a viewer couldn’t tell the difference, why
[hire this candidate in the first place instead of choosing another]?

Portfolios will become more important. Movie studios will have to change the hiring process, but they’ll still need to hire writers. And they don’t have union obligations to the writers they don’t hire.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

they don’t have union obligations to the writers they don’t hire

Which is exactly why studios are looking at AI so hard: “Why should we pay for a whole bunch of writers when we can pay for one to come in and fix some computer-generated bullshit, then pocket the extra profits we made by not hiring a bunch of writers?”

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Which is exactly why studios are looking at AI so hard: “Why should we pay for a whole bunch of writers when we can pay for one to come in and fix some computer-generated bullshit, then pocket the extra profits we made by not hiring a bunch of writers?”

I get that. My solution would be to pay writers for the amount of work that gets done rather than the amount of work that each writer actually does. If a studio decides to hire one writer to make 50 pitches with AI assistance, then that writer should get around the same money for those pitches that five writers would get altogether for writing 10 pitches each without AI assistance. The movie studio wouldn’t save much money merely by choosing to hire fewer workers. And regardless, all studio writers should get more pay than they currently do.

I would support a temporary prohibition of AI for writing in movie studios, but I don’t think that movie studios should have to avoid using AI forever.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The answer to that, hopefully, is that it becomes clear that the AI generated bullshit doesn’t have the spark of creativity that allows for innovative and imaginative writing, which is often necessary for franchises to start and build even while existing franchises become stale and formulaic.

If you’re writing Cop Show #1423 that has long-established narrative beats that follow a template older than some of the writers, maybe the AI can do the job. But, if you want something that takes risks, tries out new ideas, and – in some cases – reaps huge rewards at the box office, you’re probably going to need a human. Those extra profits made from not hiring real writers might be replacing bigger profits made from writers being creative.

nerdrage (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 creativity doesn't reap rewards at the box office

Have you been to a movie theater lately? I watched (or tried to watch) the #1 and #2 movies in 2022.

Avatar 2 – cliched garbage but pretty to look at. I managed to stay in the theater for the whole thing but forgot it all ten seconds later. Cotton candy as a movie.

Top Gun – horribly cliched drivel, gave up after 20 minutes.

Stuff like that makes me think, the WGA has no hope. AI could be writing $2 billion box office hits.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Just because you didn’t like those films doesn’t mean the writers behind them deserve to have their asses kicked to the curb in favor of an AI script generator⁠—and all so a few executives can pad their bank accounts by not having to hire more people than the bare fucking minimum.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I actually think there’s a strong chance that purely AI movies (written and generated at near zero cost) could eventually deliver something truly original, or seemingly so, and go toe to toe against Hollywood.

The problem with tentpole blockbusters is they have to appeal to everyone, which means blockbusters tend toward the familiar, and the cliché (e.g., a “crusty but benign” leader deals with a roque employee). We all know independent films are typically where daring and original entertainment actually resides.

Blockbusters dare not be original because they might offend, alienate, or be otherwise unpalatable to large sectors of the market. And they spend hundreds of millions on a movie so they need to make it all back by not being too original.

Soon AI generated content will make 100 AI films in an afternoon at zero cost. 90 will be awful, 5 will decent, 3 will be quite good, and 2 will be runaway successes.

Which means Hollywood’s entire business model is suddenly in the crosshairs.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

“Have you been to a movie theater lately?”

Yes. Last few movies I saw – Evil Dead Rise, Cocaine Bear, M3gan, Renfield, The Whale and I really want to see Infinity Pool and Beau Is Afraid, but I haven’t seen screenings near where I live. I’m also really looking forward to Not all Shakespeare, maybe, but there’s ideas there. Oh, and that’s excepting the festivals I’ve been to, where some of the best cinema I’ve seen in year was shown recently (some pure indie or non-US that wouldn’t be affected, but plenty that would be)

These aren’t all studio flicks of course, but it seems to me you need to start paying for films you want to see made rather than whatever the corporate ads tell you to see… You literally saw 2 movie equivalents of theme park rides then complained they didn’t have more substance. That’s on you.

“AI could be writing $2 billion box office hits.”

Maybe, but you’re not going to get any new content out of that. “I chose to watch the dumbest movies, therefore smarter writers don’t deserve a decent job” is a flex, but I don’t think it’s a good one.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

“I’m also really looking forward to ”

I hit post while typing there… I’m also looking forward to numerous movies ranging from Oppenheimer to Dune Part 2, various indie movies, and I always look forward to a festival I go to in August every year because some of the best films I see in a year play there but I never heard of before they have their premiere / preview screening there.

If you’re going to go to the 2 dumbest mass produced movies in a year, then proclaim that this means there’s nothing better, you’re an idiot, sorry. It’s like listening to pop music on the radio then whining that there’s no decent metal any more. I mean, you might be right in that you didn’t listen to it, but it doesn’t mean the new metal bands don’t deserve something.

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nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

But, if you want something that takes risks, tries out new ideas

The studios definitely do not want that. They want material that takes no risks, or as few as possible, and retreads ideas that have already proven successful. And writing scripts that are similar to scripts that have been written before is right up AI’s alley.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I read an article years ago about how TV scripts are chosen in Hollywood. The process goes something like this:

1) BIG STUDIO HEAD: “Let’s create a really original TV series! Something like [CURRENT SUPER ORIGINAL HIT SHOW].”

2) Big studio head assigns job to their 1st Tier Underlings to “go forth and find amazingly original content.”

3) 1st Tier Underlings assign this task to their 2nd Tier Underlings. Now you’ve got maybe 20-30 people scouring for “super original scripts”.

4) The 2nd Tier Underlings each have 10 scripts that are super original, and they can only recommend 3. Which should they recommend? They could choose the most original, but they’re young and want to move up in the business… what if their script recommendations are so original, their TV series bombs? They’d be forever known as “that person who recommended the show that bombed.” So they choose the most conservative of all their options.

5) Now the 1st Tier Underlings have 3 scripts from each reader and there’s a repeat of what happened with the 2nd Tier Underlings: “What if this show bombs? I have a mortgage, and kids to put through school. I’d better recommend the least risky of all of these scripts.”

6) Finally, the Big Studio Head gets the least original script recommendations, a re-tread of all the most tired TV series. And when it comes time to really pull the trigger, even the Big Studio Head doesn’t want to take a risk on something so original that nobody gets it. The TV series graveyard is littered with shows too niche to gain enough popularity: Star Trek, Firefly, etc.

The problem is money. When there’s so much money involved, the stakes are absurdly high. You can’t iterate something quickly enough because production is expensive and great ideas often take a while to find their audience on network TV.

AI helps solve this problem. If a studio head said, “give me something original, something that hasn’t been done before,” an AI has no career aspirations to incentivize self-censoring its recommendations. AI can quickly pore through every TV series ever made, tabulate all the story similarities, list every iteration of those stories not done before, cross-reference them for popularity, and spit out a basic outline of something original enough to appear fresh and edgy. And do this in minutes, not weeks. This is a job that the Big Studio Head’s Underlings were literally incapable of doing.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

I was under the impression that unions existed to combat abuse,

You’re right. I was being too reductionist.

…not to prevent the employer from hiring one person on a forklift instead of 10 people on a rope and pulley.

I agree. What I meant was that it’s easier for a union to prevent employers from arbitrarily firing workers than to prevent employers from hiring new workers in a way which threatens the job security of the current workers.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Writers, no matter how bad, still need to pay for things like food and rent.

And if they can’t do it with their writing, they’ll need to do it another way. The grim reality is that maybe they just can’t survive as a writer.

If I’m a terrible cook, I shouldn’t be subsidized because “Chef” is my dream career of choice, especially if a machine can do it just as good (or better) than me.

bluegrassgeek (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 Uh

AI is the terrible cook in this scenario. The writers are the ones who make quality work, the AI just churns out formulaic bullshit that doesn’t actually make sense.

But the studios would be happy with using AI to replace a dozen writers pitching actual, good ideas, and then foist the work of turning it into something watchable onto a single writer (who isn’t necessarily the best candidate, just the one they can keep under their thumb).

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: WWPD?

Imagine you’re a producer for a moment.

What would you do? You have access to these incredible tools that can save a huge amount of money when applied across the board to all the products you’re managing.

That money you save can go into created more projects, to hire more writers, more cinematographers, more makeup, etc. Sure, you can be skeptical and say it might all go up a producer’s nose, but imagine if it made the difference between 1 extra film/year? Isn’t that worth a try?

Personally, I think writers should be cut a percentage of every movie they’re involved in. Then they’re not employees—they’re partners. And partners always have a different perspective on the bottom line.

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Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re:

You have access to these incredible tools that can save a huge amount of money when applied across the board to all the products you’re managing.

[…]

Personally, I think writers should be cut a percentage of every movie they’re involved in.

You seem to be simultaneously arguing that producers should be paying writers both more and less money.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’m not sure if Ross Pruden’s thinking got that far, but I agree with your response to Thad.

Movie studio writers should be paid the same or more for the kinds and amounts work that AI would displace. On top of that, movie studios should increase pay to compensate for the apparently increasing difficulty of making a living as a writer. Then there are the rest of the WGA’s demands not related to AI. More pay again.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Workers vs. Partners

This is a nuanced point I didn’t want to get into because I was typing on my phone, but here’s a more detailed version.

Writers are employees. They are hired to do a job and they have zero risk if their project flops. They accept an agreed-upon wage per project, along with benefits the WGA has negotiated so writers can have a decent living. Lower risk = lower pay.

Producers are management. They don’t do the work themselves, they hire everything out. But they do assume risk—huge risk. If a project they produce flops, it can prematurely end their career. In the worst case, the entire studio can go under. Greater risk = greater pay.

If writer wants to be paid more, to be paid like a producer, they could consider assuming greater risk. Not a huge amount, but 1-10% seems fair. If their project tanks, they lose big. If the project explodes, they win big. I’m not saying all their income comes from a profit percentage, but maybe 10-20% of their income? Certainly it should be offered it as an option.

Perhaps writers don’t like that level of risk. Perhaps they just want to punch in, do a job, and go home. Guess what? That means they’re just employees and that also means they should expect to be treated as employees. They don’t take any risks. But they also get paid according to that level of risk.

So. What is an equitable arrangement when producers want to pay the least amount of money possible and writers wants to be paid the most amount of money possible?

If you’re a writer and you only want to be an employee—with zero desire for risk—then surprise! It’s going to be an uphill battle to fight for more pay from the studios.

If you’re a producer and you want to minimize expenses, of course you’re going to want to streamline as much of the production process as you reasonably can—to get the best possible creative output for the least amount of money possible (and that means employing new tools like AI). When you win big, you buy a yacht. When you lose big, you get fired, blackballed, or both. It’s big stakes, high stress… and accordingly big paychecks.

Producers aren’t villains… they’re just acting according to their interests. As are writers.

Perhaps the WGA as a whole can be given a percentage of all movies’ profits (before notorious Hollywood accounting depletes everything). Then writers aren’t mere employees but partners with a vested interest. Imagine how huge studio profits could then benefit writers as a whole? What if the the WGA could pay writers a decent living wage (paid from studio profits) and then studios could supplement that on a per-project basis?

That will never happen, unfortunately. But that would definitely sidestep the whole AI-is-stealing-my-job issue.

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BJC (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 WGA Writers Take on Risk

This comment makes your whole post less credible, because it seems to not understand how WGA productions and WGA contracts work.

First and foremost, the WGA contracts — and many of the contract fights past and present — are about residuals, which is an income stream that correlates with a project’s success or failure. The WGA has had success with residuals on many fronts and is pushing for more.

So, to the extent that you’re saying “maybe writers should get a chunk of a movie’s profits”…they already do. And yes, they asked for more. It’s kind of stunning that, in talking about profit sharing, you didn’t mention residuals even to dismiss them.

Second, you’re using “producers” interchangeably with “the AMPTP,” when the former also includes striking members of the WGA.

Shonda Rhimes, John Rogers, David Simon, Michael Connelly, Adam Conover, and a bunch of other people whose credits include the word “producer” are WGA members and very publicly on strike. David Simon has been speaking extensively how, as a showrunner (making business and executive decisions as well as writing), he supports the writers strike as valuable to his position in running the show.

So it’s not really accurate to say — even if you caveat residuals — that management-level writers and/or writers who get paid more if the show does well because they have an ownership stake, aren’t on strike and don’t support the goals of the WGA. Plenty are, and do.

Whether or not you think these facts matter in the grand scheme of WGA/AMPTP relations, they are significant enough exceptions to your statement that “WGA writers are employees that have no stake in the production” that, to be credible, they should have been mentioned.

allofus says:

Re: Re: Re:4 do the right thing

I don’t understand why you’re letting your sritcle stand as is. I get how much of your snarky tone would get lost by adding this insightful info but don’t you think its worth it. Techdiet has a tendency to smother itself with snark. I had to read through 6ft of snarky commets to find some actual good info. The lead doesnt bury itself. There are readers who want you do better.

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Thad (profile) says:

Ross, the point of a ban on having AI write a first draft is that rewriting somebody else’s draft pays substantially less than writing a first draft, and the writers are trying to close off an avenue the studios are trying to use to avoid having to pay writers.

Does that make sense now?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re:

Yeah, I gotta side with the writers on this one. Studios trying to shortchange their work by using AI as any kind of shortcut is some God Damned Bullshit™, and it’s another way of cutting costs to increase profits (and executive salaries). Fuck all that noise.

Solidarity forever, for the union makes us strong!

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The whole point of human-made art⁠—which includes writing, even if it’s as bad as “somehow, Palpatine returned”⁠—is that every word, every brush stroke, every note, every…well, every single decision about a given work was made by a human. Procedurally generated (“AI”) art is nothing more than a collage of bits and bytes meant to resemble the work of the actual flesh-and-blood artists whose work was used (probably without their consent) to train those generators. AI art can look passable, but it can never have the “soul” of human-made art. And speaking as someone who has screwed around with a couple of AI art generators for shits’n’giggles, being able to produce art as if it were a product on an assembly line gets boring and trite real damn quick.

And on top of all that, AI art still needs human beings involved to make it better. AI images may require inpainting and model mixing and a whole bunch of other shit merely to look passable. AI scripts sure as hell need human intervention to get to a stage where they don’t read like George Lucas’s attempts at romantic dialogue in Attack of the Clones. Someone can generate the best AI art possible and it will still absolutely require their intervention to improve its quality beyond “well, it’s good at first glance”.

AI art is bound to fail as anything other than a curiosity or a springboard for ideas precisely because ideas are a dime a dozen. The execution of those ideas is what matters⁠—and no AI worth a good god’s damn will ever outdo the work of the best humans in their creative fields. True art, no matter how awful or how resplendent, has a sense of soul behind it. AI art can’t ever have that.

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Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

And on top of all that, AI art still needs human beings involved to make it better.

Well, right, that’s the entire point here.

The studios want to be able to use an AI to pop out a subpar piece of writing, call it an “outline” or a “first draft”, and then pay writers a cut rate to make “revisions” that will ultimately be just as much work as writing the first draft themselves would be.

It’s not some kind of inscrutable mystery what’s going on here; it’s completely transparent.

The bosses want to pay the workers less money for more work. Just like every single other labor dispute in the history of the universe.

JMT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

AI art can look passable, but it can never have the “soul” of human-made art.

That’s a very subjective measure. Sticking with the main topic of this article, TV and movie writers, if the average consumer can’t tell the difference then they won’t care. But if it turns out AI-produced content is noticeably inferior, that will be reflected in the consumer demand for it.

Also, some people want high art (or “soul”) and some people are happy with mindless dreck. It may be that the AI contributions end up concentrated at the latter end of that spectrum.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 The market always chooses

This is the ultimate metric. When consumers can’t tell if it’s written by AI, or more surprisingly, prefer it because it’s written by AI, then the market will lean away from human-centered art.

I’m agnostic about that. Will it suck for writers? Yes. Totally. Devastatingly.

But maybe the best place to be in this race is learning how to use the best tools available, instead of petulantly refusing to use them?

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

maybe the best place to be in this race is learning how to use the best tools available, instead of petulantly refusing to use them?

And when those tools become capable of replacing writers who have to put actual effort into their work, what then?

Again: I don’t think you’re ready to address the societal and economic upheaval that will come with AI replacing people in multiple industries. Your eagerness to go “hey this could make writing easier” is undercut by your inability to go “hey this could put shitloads of people out of their jobs”.

I’m not totally against AI. It could be a useful tool someday. But right now, everyone who wants AI to become a widespread thing seems far more interested in the “replacing people” part than in the “how do we help all the people AI has unemployed” part. And that, combined with the “go get a day job” attitude of some of those advocates, exposes more about AI advocacy than those advocates will ever admit.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

No, because those tools opened up new avenues for artistry. AI will only ever close those avenues as greedy-ass executives using AI models (which were likely trained on works by artists who didn’t give their permission to have their works used to train AI models) decide that those models are easier to handle than pesky writers with their pesky human needs like food and shelter and the money needed to pay for things like food and shelter. When we already have people making AI-generated trailers for Wes Anderson movies⁠—regardless of the quality of the imagery⁠—how much longer will studios wait before they decide they don’t need to hire Wes Anderson for the job of directing a Wes Anderson–style movie?

AI technology can do things that regular human beings would need years⁠—maybe even entire lifetimes⁠—to accomplish. That should be cause for muted celebration and massive concern. No, AI won’t replace people any time soon. But if it does reach that tipping point, are you ready to grapple with what that’s going to do for every industry from filmmaking to customer service? Are you ready to consider what the consequences will be for the economy⁠—and for society in general?

I pray that you’re ready by the time the dreams of every AI techbro who wants to replace the “messiness” of dealing with human artists come to pass. Because it’s those techbros (and their sycophant advocates) who will need to explain why their desires⁠—their dreams of generating endless art without having to pay the actual, living, breathing, walking, talking, flesh-and-blood human artists on which those AI models are based⁠—deserve to render those human artists “obsolete”.

Good luck.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

AI is a long way from doing anything without human input, and AI driver could well be a future career, The camera for instance created fewer jobs that it destroyed, as a portrait could be created in minutes, rather than taking hours over several weeks. Also, how many session musicians no longer have a paying job due to digital instruments on modern computers?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 What will you do with your free time?

In the future:

Bad news? AI can do almost everything now.
Good news: AI can never be fully human.

The whole comment thread here is essentially an acknowledgment that

1) AI is here to stay;
2) it’s going to be massively disruptive to everything; and
3) your most competitive strategy is to embrace it, warts and all.

Bemoan that all you want, but it won’t change anything.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

The whole comment thread here is essentially an acknowledgment that

1) AI is here to stay;
2) it’s going to be massively disruptive to everything; and
3) your most competitive strategy is to embrace it, warts and all.

You’re forgetting #4: “Virtually no one pushing for AI to be a massive game-changing disruptor in numerous industries has any actual plans for what to do about all the people (especially artists) that AI could rob of gainful employment or otherwise render ‘obsolete’ in numerous ways.”

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

It is not industries job to solve that problem, but rather governments.

Where, then, are the pushes from AI techbros to have the government working on a way to solve those problems? The evangelists for disruption love to imagine the actual disruption, but never seem to have any regard for the lives that disruption can (and will) ruin. “Move fast and break things” is not a valid method of running a goddamned society and it’s about damn time they learned that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

China is “fully embracing” the AI “revoluition” wholesale.

Jobs are being displaced RIGHT NOW, in many industries, and it’s only being reported in game art and entertainment, in niche markets that very few people care about.

What’s the solution to the tens of millions jobs being displaced RIGHT NOW in China? The fucking Armed Forces?

Is THIS your fucking answer. B ecaujse you are implying that these unemployed epople go join the army. PResumably to die in a land war for STUPID reasons.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

There’s a social consequence to massive AI disruption, to be sure. Does society have a responsibility to its citizenry to help them along until they can do something else?

I would say yes. I’m not sure what that looks like but there is a social contract that, once broken, tears at society’s foundation. Plainly put, if people have nothing to do, and nowhere to go, bad things tend to happen.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

I’m not sure what that looks like

Then stop evangelizing about AI for a minute and start imagining what a society wholly disrupted by AI should do for everyone who will, post-“disruption”, struggle with making a living. (Aside: God, “making a living” is such a shitty phrase when you think about it).

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Oh, yes, “upskilling” and “be a forever learner”, I’M AWARE OF THOSE.

Humans can only “upskill” so much, and society can only tolerate so many cleaners, insurance salesmen and other menial jobs.

What’s left, then, when you have more people than jobs?

I extrapolate from the little that is being reported on in China, a country that has gleefully embraced AI in some industries.

And with Xi making certain decisions in industries that aid self reliance and inexplicably linked to war materiel manufacture…

There’s a grim picture being painted as to where all those unemployed people will go: to war, and eventually dying for Xi’s “legacy”.

That is one future you are implying, Mr. Ross Pruden.

Automation has already reduced the number of manufacturing jobs available. And will soon reduce the number of available jobs in food service. Robots are also being tested that will replace security guards. And eventually come for cleaners, warehouse staff, and every menial job you can think of.

And I doubt corpos are gonna want to pay for UBI. They’ll fight tooth and nail to prevent UBI from being passed, or worse, introduce corp scrip back into the lawbooks. They already play around with taxes.

Where does that leave the masses of unemployed, then?

If China is of any indication, we’re all fucked and will have to die for some politician’s pointless land war.

Is this what you want?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: 1/2 of the equation

Of course, you’re totally right.

BUT you are neglecting the other half of the equation: if writers are let go, they have more time… which means they are free to do other projects.

Basically, AI presents an incredible opportunity to move writers away from doing grunt work so they can focus on what they’re really good at. It might mean less pay, but there should be more of it.

Overall, I see this as a net win for the entire industry, should they choose to accept it.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Can you even tell the difference?

If I handed you two treatments—one written by a human and one not—do you think you could always immediately tell the difference?

More importantly, even if you could tell it was written by AI but it still got the gist across, would you even care?

My bet is that most producers wouldn’t care. And even if they did, that attitude will likely change as AI becomes more prevalent in our daily lives.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

If I handed you two treatments—one written by a human and one not—do you think you could always immediately tell the difference?

No.

Now I have a question: If you handed me a treatment written by an AI and I ask “why didn’t you hire a person to write this for you”, are you prepared to tell me why you think paying an actual living person who writes for a living didn’t deserve to get paid for doing their job?

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Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re:

BUT you are neglecting the other half of the equation: if writers are let go, they have more time… which means they are free to do other projects.

Yes, that’s one of the other things the strike is about: the studios’ attempts to eliminate full-time employment and replace it with gig work.

Basically, AI presents an incredible opportunity to move writers away from doing grunt work so they can focus on what they’re really good at. It might mean less pay, but there should be more of it.

I’m sorry, did you just try to frame more work for less pay as a positive?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 If AI can do your job, what job can you do?

No, I didn’t say that. You seem to be intentionally misreading what I’m saying, so let me clarify.

Let’s assume a single writer spends 1 month building the premise for a movie, 1 year writing it, and 6 months in rewrites.

If I, as a writer, could shave off 2 months of that time by using Ai, am I doing less work? Yes.

But hold on—what am I doing with those extra 2 months?

I’M WRITING MORE.

So on thew one hand, I’m working less… but on the other, I’m also being more productive and can actually do all the stuff I’d rather be doing anyway—writing the scenes, tightening the dialog, fleshing out the world building. Basically, all the stuff AI is crap at.

Remember, I’m in strong support of writers getting paid more fairly in all other points of their strike. But if AI can do some heavy lifting here and there to free me up so I do more work—the more rewarding work—why wouldn’t I want to do that?

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Thad (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

If I, as a writer, could shave off 2 months of that time by using Ai, am I doing less work? Yes.

But hold on—what am I doing with those extra 2 months?

I’M WRITING MORE.

I don’t know where to begin unpacking the unfounded assumptions you’re making here.

You’re variously assuming that AI will increase writers’ productivity, that this will give them additional free time, and that they will be able to use that additional time for productive work that you say will not equate to more work and less pay.

You provide no evidence whatsoever for these claims.

The evidence to the contrary is, well, the last forty years of American labor.

The owner class has consistently preached that everything from automation to gig work will lead to increased productivity and better pay. Turns out they’re half-right. Productivity has grown substantially; real income and benefits have substantially decreased. Unless you’re an investor or an executive.

You wanna tell us that this time is going to be different from all the other times, I’m gonna have to ask you to show your work.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4 Less time doing bad work

I am extrapolating from the larger truth that automation increases productivity, which means we get more time to do other things.

That also means you’re free to do other work if you so choose or spend time with your family or whatever.

Instead of working 18 months on one project, if I could use AI to work only 16 months and then use the extra two months to work on a completely different project, that would be a productivity boost unavailable to me previously. Same amount of time, but able to work on more projects. Or not. Maybe I spend time with my family.

The point is, automation is a tool to make writers who embrace it more efficient, and thus more competitive.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5

automation increases productivity

Automation increases speed. It doesn’t necessarily make everything more productive⁠—including humans.

Instead of working 18 months on one project, if I could use AI to work only 16 months and then use the extra two months to work on a completely different project, that would be a productivity boost unavailable to me previously.

Here’s the kicker question you seem to be avoiding: Was the AI you used to claw back those two months trained on the works of people who didn’t know about, or didn’t approve of, their work being used to train that AI model?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6 We stand on the shoulders of those who came before

It’s an interesting point. I don’t think anyone is really paid much attention to it.

Personally, I think it’s a red herring. Humans read voraciously and use all that data collection as inspirations for new works of art. And the broad strokes, I don’t really see how this is any different from what AI does. The only difference is really the speed AI can learn and its ability to retain what it learns.

Imagine I had an autistic screenwriter who remembered everything and could quote entire works of literature verbatim. If he wrote a screenplay and I handed it to you and said, “this was written by AI”, the same objections of “plagiarism” et al would come up. Are we then going to insist that the autistic screenwriter forget entire works of literature because it’s not fair he has those in his memory when he is writing a screenplay? Of course not.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

I don’t think anyone is really paid much attention to it.

I never could’ve guessed~.

Imagine I had an autistic screenwriter

I’m gonna stop you right there and ask that you not use neurodivergent people as justification for AI models ripping off the works of people who didn’t know about (or didn’t approve of) their works being used to train an AI model. That’s patently offensive in the sense that you could think of an autistic person as the equivalent of a goddamned computer. Like, what the actual fuck, dude.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

Some neurodivergent people seem superhuman in their abilities.

Still not a good enough reason to compare them to a machine, no matter the intent of that comparison. Seriously, dude, if you know someone like that and your first thought is to compare them to an AI generator, you might want to think twice about what you’re thinking.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

I’m trying to be reasonable, and civil, and you’re giving me nothing.

You’re seriously advocating for the replacement of artists with computers. I’m not going to be emotionally inert about that⁠—especially since I’m part of an artist-heavy community that, by and large, probably isn’t all that excited about AI replacing the actual artists in that community.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:12

especially since I’m part of an artist-heavy community that, by and large, probably isn’t all that excited about AI replacing the actual artists in that community.

They do not have to let AI take over the art, the community can continue to support human artists. It their choice.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

Addressing this to all on the spectrum:

I don’t even know what this thread is objecting to, really, but I’m open to being educated on my shortcomings. I sincerely apologize if any of my comments came across as callous, tactless, or demeaning. Truly. That was not my intention and it pains me that it might have come across that way.

My original point was simply to illustrate that the human brain sometimes has an incredible ability to do things most of us think are impossible. For example, some people have a photographic memory, and from their perspective, the rest of us must seem constantly forgetful. People with photographic memory aren’t on the spectrum, are they? I don’t think so.

Regardless, if a person with photographic abilities—who compared to most of the population would be considered effectively superhuman and/or godlike—were to perfectly create any art by “copying” what they saw, the resulting outcry would be very very similar to the debate we’re having now about AI. I think that’s obvious, and a sensible argument. (I don’t think I’m demeaning anyone, but perhaps others are seeing something I just can’t—if so, please do enlighten me.)

Furthermore, if I were to take the art that this person had made and tell others it had made by AI, an outrage would ensue, e.g., “That’s not art, that’s just copying.” The fact that it’s getting harder to tell if art is made by AI or humans is exactly my point.

As I see it, all humans begin their art journey by copying first. And the human experience is mostly made up of people who don’t have photographic memory and these other existing “superhuman” abilities. As forgetful humans, we remember stuff we’re trying to copy imperfectly. We organically merge source material for reasons not entirely clear to us, and generate art that all other humans interpret as “real” art. Yet when art is generated so quickly, without difficulty, it undermines how we think about how art is created, or should be created.

When we see computers doing what we’re capable of, we all get an existential dark night of the soul. We immediately think, “it’s not art. It’s only copying. How could this possibly be art when there’s zero connection, zero struggle??”

I would posit the radical(?) idea that it doesn’t matter who or what created the art—what matters is how the viewer interprets and values the art. If they like it, and think of it as art, it’s art. If they don’t, they don’t. I hasten to add that the origin of the art’s creation is typically inseparable from the art itself, and thus plays a justifiably huge role in how much value is added to the art; if I tell you it’s AI art, you may think it’s junk. If I tell you it’s human art, you may think it’s amazing. Or the inverse—it’s a purely individual metric that is sure to change over time as more AI art becomes commonplace.

Once again, my deepest apologies if I’ve offended or unfairly characterized anyone on the spectrum—not my intention, and never was. If you have kind and constructive feedback on how I could have made my point more tactfully, I will happily listen and improve my future communications.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I don’t even know what this thread is objecting to, really

That you thought it was a good idea to boil down and minimize the complexities and wide range of experiences of neurodivergent people, and of autistic people in particular, by comparing them to a lifeless machine…well, that didn’t do you any favors. Acting like you can’t understand how that comparison is offensive isn’t helping you dig out of the hole.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

I’m being harsh because you wrote something that says you think of me and people like me we’re machines or at least in some way not really human, and so are analogous to AI, in an incredibly deeply offensive fashion precisely in line with long-running, and extremely damaging, misconceptions about autistic people that persist to this day.

You’re getting this pushback because you, more or less, were trying to talk about dishwashers, and then went, ‘suppose I had a black person, who can do such tasks in a superhuman way…’ by way of trying to make an analogy.

D’ye see the problem here? D’ye see why I might have no time or tolerance for it, nor for some half-assed attempt to present yourself as a victim for being confronted with some harsh language?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:15

Ah. Yes, I understand now.

Sorry if you got offended about my analogy. Really wasn’t my intention.

FWIW, harsh language I can handle, but with me, it’s unnecessary. We can disagree but still be respectful, can’t we? Once we resort to name-calling, my brain tends to switch off and I stop listening. If you just want to insult me, the conversation stops. If you want to change my mind, then let’s have a civil discussion. If we can do that, I promise to keep listening with an open mind.

As for the original post, I think you completely misread the point I was making: it’s not that neurodivergent people “are at least in some way not really human.” Actually, my point was exactly the opposite—neurodivergent people are human by very definition. Neurodivergent people are, perhaps, even more human than neurotypical people because their ability to do astonishing mental feats proves just how capable humans really are.

Thus, in this one aspect only of high processing abilities, some rare types of humans appear shockingly similar to AI. I don’t think that’s offensive, or even reductive. That’s just factual.

But if that analogy still offends you, we can easily go the other way:

Imagine I took an AI bot and added in all the “imperfections” that organic neurotypical beings possess: deeply imperfect memory recall, slow learning that requires constant repetition with years to fully master, somatic feedback (including mild to severe trauma on occasion) and random chemical imbalances that affect mood, perspective, etc. If all these things—aspects of the human condition that I personally experience as a neurotypical person—were added atop an AI bot, my guess is that AI bots would create art exactly like what humans already produce.

If someone described me in the above example, I guess it’s possible I could be offended by thinking it’s reductive and simply portrays me as nothing but a victim of my genetics and environment. But I don’t get offended—I think my analogy is empirically accurate. Hopefully, this example demonstrates how the similarities between AI bots and humanity are much closer than some are perhaps willing to concede.

Are you starting to see my point now?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:16

We do see your point.

Problem is, eidetic memory exists and even if someone did use his eidetic memory to create an original work, drawing heavily from all that he read…

the writer with eidetic memory would still be subject to the same guidelines and whatnot.

Also, HUMANS ARE NOT ROBOTS. That you went STRAIGHT to people on the autistic spectrum speaks volumes about your character.

I shall look forward to your article when you are finally replaced, and sent to the frontlines to die for some politician’s greed and ambition.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:17

Also, HUMANS ARE NOT ROBOTS.

I think this comment helped me finally identify a core distinction between two ideological camps in this discussion:

CAMP A
Humans are organic beings with some sort of “divine inspiration” or “soul” or “unique creativity”, none of which AI can ever truly replicate because it doesn’t have a soul or whatever.

CAMP B
Humans are organic problem-solving beings that apply their skills just like every other animals in nature (seek shelter, hunt for food, etc.), just with a far higher intelligence capacity.

If you’re in Camp A, you can’t see how any other creature or machine can do what humans do. There’s no “soul”, there’s no “originality”, etc.

If you’re in Camp B (like me), you see humans as basically organic robots. Naturally, as organic beings, humans solve problems of sexuality, relationships, politics, religions, art, etc. Were we silicon robots, the nature of our problems would be more abstract and mathematical.

Art created in this perspective may feel original… but closer examination reveals that originality is actually not that straightforward: when you peek into an artist’s life to see what they were thinking and feeling, you might be disappointed to know how much of their art was inspired by what came before. Since most of us never see this process (learning how to make art takes years, and art is typically created in private), we are inclined to see new art as original. It’s when humans give a prompt to AI where the entire creative process is laid bare—the time between idea and creation is mere seconds. “How can this be original?”

Basically, you and I will never agree simply because we’re on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum. In my view, humans are indeed robots. Of course, humans are very bad robots in many ways… we forget things, our “circuitry” often gets fried, our batteries need constant recharging.

Anyway, you get my gist. I’m saddened that you feel the need to be snippy or call my character into question. I’m just trying to have a civil conversation.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:18

Actually, I’m in camp “humans are parasites that should be eliminated YESTERDAY.”

And I happen to think even the parasite should be able to struggle and survive in the hellscape that is of our making.

While you keep crowing on about how AI will free people up to do what they like, I see the opposite being played out: creatives quitting doing what they love because there’s no point in being creative when it’s finally automated.

While you extol the virtues of automation I nsee the consequuences: hungry people working double shifts, even DOUBLE JOBS, to make ends meet.

Maybe whoever is paying you to propagandize about automation and the AI “revolution” is paying you well enough to keep you temporarily as a useful tool. All I see are Amway-level grifters using you and throwing you away once you’re done being useful at the propaganda they want you to write.

And you seem to want to see people starve, just like how Thatcher crushed the coal unions, like how Bobby Kotick hired Pinkerton to try to crush the nascent unions in HIS company.

You can say you aren’t for writers losing their jobs, but remember, the hand that feeds you right now will eventually throw you away.

Don’t say anything your paymasters wouldn’t want you to say, because even the faintest glimmer of resistance will be crushed, with violence if need be.

And good luck appeasing your masters. You need it more than ever to be in their good pages.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:20

Well then, Mr. Pruden.

I would like to apologize.

First and foremost, to Mike and the team at Techdirt, for being excessively rude to one of your contributors. I had no idea he had contributed multiple times during the course of the site’s existence. I unerstand that everyone is busy enough with the stuff on their plates, and it’s entirely possible that this article came in with the implicit approval of the team. However, as you all do know, people do change, and it is sad to see a noted Techdirt contributor fall so far from grace.

To Mr. Pruden. I am ever so sorry for telling you how other people not in your privileged position know and feel. I suppose one could forgive you for being a little out of touch with the way the WGA works, considering your contributions to Techdirt. Contributions you so graciously made time for.

However, I will have to refuse your invitation to step out in the sunlight. I am fairly certain I am capable of handling whatever you wish throw at me, but considering how Buzz Aldrin was treated when he received such an invitation, and more importantly, how Uwe Boll treated the critics who accpeted his challenge, I am sure you would understand why I have to refuse your invitation.

After all, we are writers, are we not? Physical threats are not something one should imply so transparently.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Look, I’m trying to have a genuine human moment here.

I’ve already apologized—profusely and repeatedly. I’ve also restated my original point with as much sensitivity as I know how.

I’m now genuinely asking for constructive feedback for how I could have made my point—which I subsequently qualified very narrowly and with great care—without offending anyone.

Now I have to ask—is there anything I can say or do that would ever diffuse your anger?

If you just want to be angry because you disagree with me, that would be helpful to know. But if I’ve done something to upset you or others and nothing I say will ever make that anger go away, then I’ll know we’ll never agree and I should just move on.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7

We accept that people will use the works of others as inspiration for their own works because people will add their own unique flourishes to whatever they come up with. Being inspired by Frank Frazetta, for example, doesn’t mean an artist is going to copy his work wholesale. They’re going to study his work for techniques and aesthetics they can integrate into their own works. If you can’t see the difference between that and an AI image generator ripping off Frazetta’s work to generate a look-alike image in his style, that’s your problem.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

If you can’t see the difference between that and an AI image generator ripping off Frazetta’s work to generate a look-alike image in his style, that’s your problem.

What’s the difference between going to a human artist who has studied Picasso and asking them to paint you something in Picasso’s style, and going to an AI that’s trained on Picasso and asking it to generate an image in Picasso’s style? Except for the identity of the creator, there isn’t one.

In both cases, the previous works have been analyzed, evaluated and processed by another party, whether it’s the human brain doing the analysis, or an AI algorithm. Sure, the human-generated one might be better (for now), but that’s a different issue.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

What’s the difference between going to a human artist who has studied Picasso and asking them to paint you something in Picasso’s style, and going to an AI that’s trained on Picasso and asking it to generate an image in Picasso’s style?

On the surface? Probably not much. But beneath the surface? The human is going to give you a work that has a “soul” behind it⁠—a work that has an actual human making decisions about where to put the paints and how to move them around with brushes so that it best matches Picasso’s style. The AI image is going to be a cheap-ass collage of what it’s been told a Picasso should look like. The human-generated result will have the feeling of “real art” behind it because it’s been made by human hands; the AI-generated result will have all the appeal of an assembly line product made for the mass market. That’s the difference between AI-generated art and human-generated art: AI can replicate, but it can’t innovate or adapt.

bhull242 (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

Look, I can agree with most of what you said about writers’ jobs and stuff, at least from a purely emotional POV, but this is just too subjective for me to get behind. It depends on what you’re looking for, for one. Not everyone may value that “soul” you speak of. (I don’t know what that is, but I’m autistic, so perhaps that’s why.) For another, I would distinguish between “pure” AI works and AI-assisted works, where the work generated by the AI is just a starting point to save time. The latter could still contain this “soul” you speak of.

Now, could this be a bad deal for writers and artists in terms of pay, workload, and/or quality? Maybe. Maybe even likely. But that’s another can of worms that I really don’t want to get into.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:11

“Not everyone may value that “soul” you speak of”

Maybe not consciously. But, they do know when there’s a tired formula, characters are tropes and not real people, etc. Then, they get tired and box office goes down until something more fresh comes along.

Of course, sometimes this is part of the charm and there’s a reason why formulaic blockbusters and TV shows still make money.

“the work generated by the AI is just a starting point to save time”

I see 2 problems here. One is what’s been mentioned elsewhere that the first draft or spec script is usually more lucrative and can be higher paid than rewrites (thus, writers get locked out of the bigger payday). The other is that this also means that the structure and so on is already locked in.

I can think of several long-running franchises where their longevity is because of how they play with expectations. If the structure is locked in early on, writers can only do so much to polish it. Then, the writers have less power because they’re only working for hire on pre-existing work. Audiences notice, and they stop turning up, losing potential millions or even billions because the production line is there.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

“I am extrapolating from the larger truth that automation increases productivity, which means we get more time to do other things.”

That’s not how automation’s ever worked. In a vacuum all automation results in is people being made to do more things in pursuit of numbers going up.

You know what’s given people more time to do other things? Labour action.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Basically, AI presents an incredible opportunity to move writers away from doing grunt work so they can focus on what they’re really good at. It might mean less pay, but there should be more of it.

Ross Pruden, I think you should be more explicit about how you think payment SHOULD work in your opinion, rather than hedging about what WILL actually happen – or rather, what the movie studios WILL deign to do. The point of a union is to give workers an opportunity to make the “WILL” more like the “SHOULD”.

The baseline, in my opinion, is that a writer should get at least the same pay for any work that the AI would speed up. If the pitch-writing part of the writer’s work earns about 20 dollars per pitch, then writer should earn at least 20 dollars per pitch regardless of how much AI involvement there is. Does the writer get paid 200 dollars for the 10 pitches that they wrote this week? Then the writer should get paid at least 600 dollars for the 30 pitches they’ll write with AI assistance in a week next year. The calculations won’t be that simple because writers don’t get paid per task, but more work done should mean more pay, at least within the big studios.

the WGA is asking studios to grant professional writers a reasonable slice of Hollywood’s huge profit pie: a higher minimum wage across all media, higher contributions to benefits, more residuals for streaming. Basically, the same story as writers’ strikes from years past. And, let’s face it: the studios can afford it.

I don’t agree with the WGA’s attempt to exclude AI completely from the writing process, but that’s no reason to completely dismiss negotiations specifically about AI. If the studios can afford to pay more, then maybe they really should pay writers more for the same work rather than the same for more work. And as an AC suggested in a different comment, movie studios can ask to renegotiate after a year-long test run. And surely, the big studios will profit anyway from the greater productivity.

How will writers convince movie studios to pay them more in practice? I’m not sure. Ask Congress for new labor laws around AI and payment? Collectively threaten to switch to supportive studios? Switch to human-only studios? Collectively criticize unsupportive studios? I’m just spitballing here, but I wouldn’t skip keeping in mind an ideal outcome.

HotHead (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

The baseline, in my opinion, is that a writer should get at least the same pay for any work that the AI would speed up.

I was leaning in the wrong direction with “at least” and too rigid with “baseline”. A writer using AI to write 10 pitches should get almost (slightly less than) the money that a writer not using AI would get for writing 10 pitches in the same studio. This way, the writer using AI to write 20 pitches would still get more money than the writer who wrote 10 pitches without AI. The point is to prevent the movie studio using AI involvement as an excuse to pay writers low salaries. And Congress should pass a labor law preventing studios from paying the lower “uses AI” amount to a writer who abstains from using AI. Whether a studio can force a writer to use AI might be a question best left to union negotiations. The “uses AI” to “doesn’t use AI” payment ratio can be adjusted in union negotiations.

If the pitch-writing part of the writer’s work earns about 20 dollars per pitch, then writer should earn at least 20 dollars per pitch regardless of how much AI involvement there is. Does the writer get paid 200 dollars for the 10 pitches that they wrote this week? Then the writer should get paid at least 600 dollars for the 30 pitches they’ll write with AI assistance in a week next year.

Here too, I change “at least” to “slightly less than”.

The calculations won’t be that simple because writers don’t get paid per task, but more work done should mean more pay, at least within the big studios.

To clarify, my payment scheme is based on the amount of work that gets done by writers + AI (if AI is involved) as opposed to the amount of work that each writer does, excluding what the AI does. Paying 1 writer to write 50 pitches with AI will be almost as expensive to the studio as paying 5 writers to write 10 pitches each without using AI. (Paying the 5 writers will be a bit more expensive because of minimum pay and individual employee benefits.)

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Will they? If you follow the way these productions usually go, one thing you’ll find is that writers earn a living by doing the “normal” writing, and experiment with things on the side, and when they have something unusual to try and sell they can use the contacts and experience they gained by standard writing to interest producers in green lighting their more unusual creative output.

If that day job is now done by AI, and they’re on the bottom rung of the ladder simply rewriting computer output, what do they do in order to get their other work noticed? What contacts and relationships will they have gathered while allowing AI to do most of the work?

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bluegrassgeek (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 For LESS pay

The entire argument of the WGA is that rewrites pay substantially less than creating a new work. The studios are pushing to use AI for the “first draft,” so they can force writers to take a pay cut for all new future works.

So yeah, the writers might be “employed,” but at poverty wages compared to new work.

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PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re:

Be creative. One example that comes to mind is a number of films that play with the narrative structure of a story, from Rashomon to Memento to Irreversible to last year’s Barbarian. An AI isn’t going to think outside the box and deliver something as artistically and emotionally satisfying as those films did by playing around with expectations, they’re going to stick to the standard 3 act structure and narrative flow. Even if an AI did somehow come up with alternative storytelling methods, it won’t be in a position to judge whether the new structure actually works. A real writer can. There’s all sorts of things from unreliable narrators to twists and layered misdirections that take real creativity that’s unlikely to come from a program.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

Even if an AI did somehow come up with alternative storytelling methods, it won’t be in a position to judge whether the new structure actually works. A real writer can. There’s all sorts of things from unreliable narrators to twists and layered misdirections that take real creativity that’s unlikely to come from a program.

Which is why AI is useless without human input and guidance. With that input, it allows a human to rapidly iterate and try out ideas, and without input it sits there doing nothing. AI’s show no signs of dreaming, or noodling around with ideas when left to their own devices, and so lack the mechanism to be independently creative.

PaulT (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3

One of the constantly weird things about Hollywood (by which I mean the actual major studios, not the recent connotation that some have decided to apply to all cinema) is their constant attacks on writers. There’s no movie without a script, yet writers are passed around as disposable commodities, and the biggest complaints with most major failures are with the scripts, if they’re not vanity projects.

Even the movies that you can argue are production line nonsense are usually credited to 4+ writers (meaning that producers shopped them around to different writers, the first guy never had control over what the others did with his work). There’s examples of single author failures of course, but I don’t think those are the ones people usually complain about.

Given the amount of people hired for a studio movie however, I don’t think they’ll gain much more by reducing the number of writers they hire. I suspect they waste more by setting a release date before the script is written than they spend on the writers.

TheKilt (profile) says:

I look forward to seeing an article from Pruden in a few years, following the release of the first wholly-AI written movie, where he’s cheering the fact that Hollywood can finally become more efficient and unburden themselves of those time-consuming and expensive screenwriters… To be followed by the actors, cinematographers, special effects artists and basically everyone not involved in running a server farm (though that’ll probably be outsourced to AWS or Microsoft). Because efficiency and cost savings are obviously the only considerations. Mind you, this won’t turn into cheaper ticket costs, or streaming subscription prices, it’ll all go to the corporate bottom line. Hell, maybe a Hollywood production will finally make a profit. Or maybe they’ll get an AI accountant to come up with even more creative ways to hide the cash.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: 2023 is the inflection year

A more likely outcome:

1) The WGA forces studios to only use human content.
2) Non-WGA unpaid noob filmmakers around the world start creating content outside of the WGA’s limitations.
3) AI gets smarter and creates content indistinguishable from Hollywood content.
4) Amateur filmmakers create and publish highly polished 3–5 minute movies on YouTube. Then 10 minute movies, then 20 minute, then 1 hour.
5) Feature films are “suddenly” generated in less than a month, a week, a day.
6) Hollywood finally wakes up and realizes that 20-30 YouTube channels run by an army of 20 year olds (who grew up mastering AI prompts) has eclipsed their view time.

Instead of being the innovators, Hollywood will have been beaten by more nimble competitors unwilling to abide by union restrictions on what tools they can and can’t use.

Disruptive innovation at its finest.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Then I think we’re going to have to put some limits on their freedom to do so. While I don’t entirely disagree with the scenario you describe, We have to keep people taken care of If we want to have a viable political system. Humans cannot eat Ann Rand novels.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

That’s the curse of a free market—everyone can compete and there’s no guarantee you can win.

I mean, let me just add here: I want everyone in the world who wants to write to be able to write without ever having to worry about mortgage or benefits or whatever.

But what I want and what I think the market should support (or not support) are two different things. The WGA is taking a decidedly anti-competitive stance and positioning writers to be disrupted from non-WGA competitors. I don’t think that the right way to “take care” of writers. Actually, I think it’s the opposite.

Rather, writers should be leading the charge to master this new tech so that they can never be disrupted by noobs.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I want everyone in the world who wants to write to be able to write without ever having to worry about mortgage or benefits or whatever.

And if their output is slow and does not find an audience, why should they receive any money. The self publishing model is about the right balance, because if they can attract a large enough fan base, they can make a living, and if not, they can keep going as a hobby, or put their spare time into something else they might be able to make a living at. But until they create the income needed to go full they need the day job, or live in a country where they can survive on welfare.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I want everyone in the world who wants to write to be able to write without ever having to worry about mortgage or benefits or whatever.

Then you need to start pushing for some changes in society other than “replace humans with AI”, because the moment that dream becomes a reality, there’s gonna be a shitload of people worrying about where their next paycheck is going to come from when non-writing jobs they could’ve been working are replaced by AI chatbots and image generators and whatnot.

I don’t think you’re prepared to account for the social upheaval that “replacing human artists with AI” could bring. If you were, you would be advocating for writers instead of AIs.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:3 Free to create for its own sake

I think the end goal here is to free everyone from doing a job that they do not have to do. To be able to pursue whatever they want simply because they enjoy doing it.

Obviously, that’s a utopian vision, but I think that’s ultimately what everyone wants. Maybe some people enjoy working themselves to death in a job they hate, but for some reason, I don’t think that’s exactly true, is it?

Because the future I see is a future where AI and Robots are doing all the scut work and we are finally free to be able to work on improving society for its own good.

If you are hearing a chorus of “universal basic income” in the background, that’s not by accident. I fully think this is where we are going as a society, and I’m quite certain there will be plenty of social upheaval along the way as people discover that AI‘s can do their jobs better than they can.

Obviously, I think we are decades away from that, but we are starting to see the first blips in how automation is taking over our lives. It began with the Industrial Revolution (I don’t see anyone complaining about how automated machines removed our need to harvest or hunt for food, or wash our clothes, or what have you), this is just the next major chapter.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

I think the end goal here is to free everyone from doing a job that they do not have to do.

Think about the people who want to write as a job⁠—how would replacing them with AI (and ostensibly cutting all but the most basic human-driven cleanup work out of the equation) help any of them earn a living from writing?

If you are hearing a chorus of “universal basic income” in the background, that’s not by accident.

I’m not hearing it in the foreground, or from you. That’s the problem I’m having with your adamant AI advocacy: You don’t seem to care who AI displaces or how AI could affect the market for human-created art so long as you get your AI-driven wet dream to become a reality.

I’m part of the furry fandom. Within that group are a lot of talented artists across a variety of mediums. Right now, procedurally generated art is able to replicate the art styles of a fair number of higher-profile furry artists⁠—to the point where, with some cleanup, the results can look like one of those artists actually drew the image. You might think “oh that’s cool”, but think about the artist whose style that AI ripped off: Do you think they’re looking at an AI image generator replicating their style and thinking “oh that’s cool”? FUCK NO. They’re more likely to think “aw fuck, there goes some interest in getting me to draw images”.

That isn’t to say that furry artists⁠—especially the most well-known artists⁠—are in danger of having their income dry up right now. AI art is getting good, but it still can’t generate things like coherent comic pages, and it still has problems with (among other things) odd poses that only a human artist could draw without it looking like a Lovecraftian nightmare. But lower-tier artists run the risk of being “demonetized” (so to speak) because they can’t compete with AI art’s ability to generate images at a much faster rate than even the best artists. That’s going to discourage a lot of of those artists from ever even drawing again: “What’s the point when someone on 4chan can generate a naked anthro horse dude faster than it takes me to draw his nose?”

And therein lies the real danger of AI art, which you genuinely seem either unwilling or unable to address: What’s going to happen if/when AI art becomes good enough and ubiquitous enough that people decide it’s easier to generate an image rather than pay an artist to make it⁠—or to even pick up a pencil and try it themselves?

You’re an AI advocate. Advocate for AI in a way that doesn’t make me worry about whether you’re trying to put artists I like⁠—artists whose works I admire, whose skills I envy, whose passion for creation I wish to one day emulate⁠—out of business.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:5 Accept it, or perish.

I’m not trying to put artists out of business—I’m telling artists that they will go out of business unless they embrace AI as a new tool. (Or define themselves to their fans in such a way that fans flock to them because they don’t use AI.

It sounds as if you want me to advocate for some sort of regulation or legislation that somehow protects artists. That’s a fool’s errand—AI is already here, it will soon be ubiquitous, and you’d better get used to it in a hurry or you will indeed go out of business.

An artist’s best strategy to stay in business is to remain competitive, and that means—like it or not—using AI.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

I’m not trying to put artists out of business—I’m telling artists that they will go out of business unless they embrace AI as a new tool.

Distinction without a difference.

It sounds as if you want me to advocate for some sort of regulation or legislation that somehow protects artists.

No, I want you to advocate for AI in a way that doesn’t make me think you’re out to see living, breathing, walking, talking, I-need-a-dollar artists⁠—furry or otherwise!⁠—made obsolete by machine-generated imagery. Everything you’ve been saying up until now makes me think you want that to happen. I’m asking you to put my fears to rest with something more than “they just need to accept and learn to use AI or else”.

An artist’s best strategy to stay in business is to remain competitive, and that means—like it or not—using AI.

Man, I really don’t want to keep dragging the fandom into these arguments and all because it might mean linking to furry porn. I don’t think Mike would like me doing that here. But you’re pushing me right up to that line.

Right now, if I go to 4chan’s /trash/ board, I can find a “Stable Diffusion” thread. It’s chock full of people using AI generators to create furry porn⁠—some of which is “inspired” by the art styles of actual furry artists, whose work was fed into the AI models (without their permission, natch). One of the more popular artists that those goons emulate is Fluff-Kevlar. (Fluff, if you somehow happen upon this comment: I am sincerely and incredibly sorry for dragging you into this discussion.)

Under your vision of AI, Fluff should be delighted at this: They can use this to generate pinups and such in their style! They can save themselves the work of doing one-off images and double the effort they use to make comics! But what I’m seeing is Fluff’s style being ripped off so that a bunch of jerkasses can generate images in Fluff’s style without having to pay Fluff for the privilege. How can anyone fairly compensate Fluff for whatever losses they may incur as a result of AI art taking away even the smallest interest in anything but their comics work, which itself may take a hit if people use AI generators to create sequences of character interactions that could substitute for comics?

Therein lies the biggest problem I have with all this “use AI or else you’re fucked” advocacy: You’re not willing to consider who’s getting fucked, how they’re getting fucked, and why they deserve to get fucked because of AI. You’re so gung-ho about artists using AI to “improve workflows” and “increase productivity” that you’re not stopping to consider who ends up shafted by the very thing for which you’re advocating.

I admire Fluff’s work because it’s Fluff’s work. An AI-generated imitation of Fluff’s work⁠—a collage of bits and pieces of their works mixed with the works of others⁠—means virtually nothing to me because it’s an imitation of Fluff’s work. But you seem perfectly fine with Fluff having their content and their style ripped off so some goons on 4chan can make big-tittied tiger girls in Fluff’s style without having to pay Fluff for the privilege.

THAT is the problem I have with all this gung-ho, let’s-do-it-now, move-fast-and-break-things advocacy for AI. THAT is the issue you’ll need to overcome before you can make me consider that AI replacing actual flesh-and-blood artists is even remotely close to being a good thing on a moral and ethical level.

GOOD. FUCKING. LUCK.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:6

An artist’s best strategy to stay in business is to remain competitive, and that means—like it or not—using AI.

And they ARE, in a sense.

They use Photoshop. Content-Aware fill does help a lot.

They stream their artmaking process. They charge lower than the industry standard.

And yet, they are being replaced.

In China, AI is increrasingly replacing artists in games. One entertainer has also quit because of AI.

How are you going to replace those jobs? Ask them to join the fucking army?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:7 Not every job

Look, there’s no sugar-coating it: Some jobs just going to fade away. Some sooner than others.

But I don’t mourn the loss of coachmen or horse whip makers after cars were invented, as I’m sure 100 years from now, they’ll not mourn the loss of many jobs getting replaced by AI today. Life is always changing.

I don’t enjoy seeing all this happen, but it’s helpful to know what’s about to happen so we can plan accordingly.

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Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:8

I’ll take my lessons from history then.

Margret Thatcher did crush coalworkers’ unions without a support plan in place to rehabilitate the coalworkers. The coal regions have not fully recovered economically since then.

If that’s the case, I should support unions that do not have governemnt/corp support then. And warn them to defend themselves if things get violent.

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TheKilt (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

You’re right, there’s no sugar-coating it, AI is coming for a lot of people’s jobs. And it’s coming for yours as much as it is for the screenwriters.

So tell me: What’s your plan for when ML comes for your job? Because I don’t think you have one. The way you wrote this article, you clearly think that ML and your employers are miraculously going to give you exactly what you want (taking care of the so-called “drudge work” of actually coming up with an idea – and let me tell you, that’s such a great way of telling on yourself), and stop there. You don’t seem to feel like there’s any possibility of yourself being negatively impacted by this, so it’s easy for you to be cavalier about how it’s going to harm others “Ha-ha, the free market, am I right? What can you do?”

So, making my flip remark earlier a straight-up question: When ML finally comes for your job, and publishers start telling you ML can write articles or full scripts as well as you can for far less money, how are you going to respond?

Are you going to write a triumphant article lauding the fact that you’ve been made obsolete? Or are you going to sit there in a stunned silence as you realize the leopard finally ate your face?

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:9

An excellent question. Finally, someone asked it! 🙂

I think the onus is both on the individual, and on society, to prepare for the inevitability that some jobs will be made redundant, and plan accordingly. Stage actors and nurses will have fantastic job security, but any high paying analysis job that AI can do will soon find their jobs obsolete.

So it’s my role to highlight that inevitability. I don’t really care if people get angry with me about it—get in the life boat, ya’ll, or you’re going down with the ship.

I’m a fine art photographer and writer, so I absolutely see some of what I do to be made redundant by AI. Fine. Those parts that are redundant, I’ll do less of. And I’ll do more of the things AI can never do: performance art, video courses, et al. If I continued only making fine art photography with no promotion of the human aspects around the creation of the art, then I can expect to be out of a job within the year. Art without any human value add is basically no different than AI art.

cpt kangarooski says:

Re: Re: Re:5

Think about the people who want to write as a job⁠—how would replacing them with AI (and ostensibly cutting all but the most basic human-driven cleanup work out of the equation) help any of them earn a living from writing?

This sort of thing has happened before, even within living memory.

Once upon a time, if you were a writer, you had to hire some scribes to copy your work if you wanted to distribute copies. It may have been decent employment for scribes, but it limited the number of extant works and copies severely.

Eventually, movable type was invented. The cheaper costs of publishing allowed for more publishing to occur, and there was an explosion in the number of works and copies. At this time, to publish a work, the printer needed a manuscript, and would have typesetters hand-assemble galleys of type generally using individual letters, and at times, bits of page decoration. All of those were little fiddly pieces of metal, and since they needed to be reused, and no one was storing a bunch of galleys, once you printed as many copies of a particular page as you thought you could sell, you’d break the galley apart and re-use the letters for the next page. This worked well for a few hundred years.

Various technologies were developed to try to improve this, but the big ones were: lithography, where you could print from a single plate; photography, where you could easily make duplicates of images (including images of text); photolithography, combining those two inventions; and linotype machines, which let a typesetter sit at a keyboard and make an entire line of type in one piece of lead instead of assembling the letters by hand.

You could keep a linotype galley around indefinitely if you really wanted to — at the expense of a galley, storage space, and some cheap, reusable lead. But usually you’d print up a copy of the type onto paper and then hand it over to compositors to slice it up into little strips or blocks of text, and then they’d literally paste them onto an artboard, assembling the page by hand. Once the page was done, it would be photographed to fix it as a single object, and then the photograph (typically a large negative, actually) would be handed over to strippers — who are of course the people that assemble multiple photos of pages onto a single lithographic metal plate, which is easy to store for future printings, or to clean off and reuse.

That worked great up until the 1980s (or a bit earlier, depending on how professional your operation was).

By 1986 you no longer needed typesetters or compositors. A writer could write on their Macintosh, move the text into any of a number of desktop publishing programs like PageMaker or later Quark XPress, and print camera ready pages on a PostScript laser printer. By the 90s the camera operators and strippers were beginning to lose their jobs as DTP began to support direct-to-plate.

A lot of people lost good jobs because a ton of labor was rendered superfluous.

And then as online and e-book publishing got big, it’s also reduced the need for print publication further, which had already been hit hard by radio and TV. (Cities used to have numerous, big daily newspapers, both morning and evening editions; now many are lucky to have one crappy paper)

It was very bad for people, and having lived through at least the DTP part of things, I saw it happen. But it’s also good that people, including the furry artists you care about, can easily and cheaply publish their work to a much bigger audience than ever before.

If you insist on doing things the old way, like old time paste-up compositors or strippers, you’re going to get screwed. Be smart and show some adaptability. Maybe even change the rules of the game — perhaps it’s time to go for a universal basic income so that writers can write without having to worry about supporting themselves by writing, therefore eliminating risk (but also accepting that often their work may not be successful).

Personally, I’m very encouraged by the idea of computers that can, at least half-assedly, create things, as tools for people who lack even half an ass. I’m thinking a lot of Star Trek here: you can write your own holodeck scenario in exhaustive detail, but you can also just tell the computer to whip you up something and it’ll do it, or you can give it the broad outline and let the computer fill in the uninteresting details.

There’ll always be a place for really skilled authors and artists to show off their work, but now, hopefully, a lot of custom work can be done cheaper, faster, more to the taste of the person commissioning it, and in excess of the available number of artists.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

There’ll always be a place for really skilled authors and artists to show off their work, but now, hopefully, a lot of custom work can be done cheaper, faster, more to the taste of the person commissioning it, and in excess of the available number of artists.

And therein lies the problem with all of this AI evangelizing: When a significant number of people decide that AI art is good enough (and easy enough to produce) that they don’t need to pay for an actual person to make some custom art, what are the human artists who might otherwise make a decent living from their art supposed to do when their income dries up thanks to machine “artists”? (And doubly troubling: How should those human artists feel when the machine “artists” replacing them have been trained on the images and styles of those artists without their permission?)

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:7

When a significant number of people decide that AI art is good enough (and easy enough to produce) that they don’t need to pay for an actual person to make some custom art, what are the human artists who might otherwise make a decent living from their art supposed to do when their income dries up thanks to machine “artists”?

I can’t dig a ditch with a shovel, I’m old and out of shape. But I can rent a Bobcat. That means no landscaper is going to get that job.

The situation you describe already happens all the time in multiple fields. A tool is created that makes it so that I can do the job of a professional “good enough” that I don’t need to hire the professional anymore. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make the tool.

How should those human artists feel when the machine “artists” replacing them have been trained on the images and styles of those artists without their permission?

There’s room for an argument to be had in using copyrighted material to train an AI without permission. Although, if a human can be “inspired” by copyrighted material (without permission) simply by looking at it, is that any different from “inspiring” an AI by letting the AI “look at” it?

An artist’s style, though? Like how Blurred Lines “copied” Marvin Gaye’s “style?” Absolutely not.

Public domain art? Train away.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

A tool is created that makes it so that I can do the job of a professional “good enough” that I don’t need to hire the professional anymore. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make the tool.

Therein lies the problem: AI evangelists aren’t trying to make a tool that “helps” creatives. They’re trying to make a tool that replaces creatives⁠—that, in essence, automates the very notion of human creativity. Y’all seem extraordinarily eager to sidestep this notion and tell everyone “learn to code” (or an equivalent thereof).

if a human can be “inspired” by copyrighted material (without permission) simply by looking at it, is that any different from “inspiring” an AI by letting the AI “look at” it?

YES, IT IS.

A person inspired by someone else’s work won’t generally try to copy it wholesale, but will instead add any techniques or flourishes to an ever-growing pile of influences. A human artist doesn’t try to replicate, but instead tries to innovate and adapt in ways that change their art style. To watch an artist grow as an artist⁠—to see their style change and their skills increase over time⁠—is a genuine pleasure and one of the good things about human creativity.

An AI isn’t “inspired”⁠—it’s told to replicate a style by mishmashing together different parts of an artist’s existing works. It’s an automated assembly line collage that might resemble the style but lacks everything that makes a human-produced work creative. To put it bluntly, AI art lacks the “soul” of human-produced art. So if you can’t see the difference between a human artist growing their skills as an artist via inspiration and an AI artist cobbling together pieces of other images as an autocomplete shortcut for human creativity⁠—if you really think AI art is worth putting on at least the same level as human-created art⁠—that’s not my problem to solve.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

So if you can’t see the difference between…

That you see a difference doesn’t mean that one exists.

YES, IT IS.

This is obviously something you’re passionate about, and I’m not seeking to diminish that. I don’t even completely disagree with some of your points. However, there are times where your argument gets dangerously close to “Won’t somebody please think of the children artists?” and at least for me, it damages your case.

A person inspired by someone else’s work won’t generally try to copy it wholesale

Neither does AI. It might look like a Picasso, but it isn’t.

mishmashing together different parts of an artist’s existing works. It’s an automated assembly line collage

That might be true at the moment, but it’s not going to be long before the AIs take those existing works, run an analysis on them and generate something entirely new, just like a person would (assuming that hasn’t happened already). Isn’t one goal of AI, after all, to get the machine to function similar to how a human brain does? If AI reaches the level of sophistication of a Commander Data, will you still claim that he has no soul?

that’s not my problem to solve.

Or, perhaps, there’s no problem at all.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:10

there are times where your argument gets dangerously close to “Won’t somebody please think of the … artists?”

I’d rather be thinking about the human artists whose works are being commandeered without their permission to train AI models that some people want to use as a replacement for those artists than about the people who are literally trying to automate human creativity. I’d rather be thinking about how so many artists being put “out of business” by people who believe machine-generated “creativity” is a good future rather than the people who are unwilling or unable to consider what putting artists out of business will mean when no one wants to compete with AI art. If that makes me passionate, irrational, and altogether pissed the fuck off at the AI evangelists, so fucking be it. But someone needs to argue for the artists, because I sure as shit don’t see you doin’ it.

Isn’t one goal of AI, after all, to get the machine to function similar to how a human brain does?

That you still seem to think the idea of replacing people with machines in regards to creating art of any kind⁠—of replacing human creativity with machine “creativity”, of putting human artists “out of business” and making potential future artists give up because they can’t compete with AI art⁠—would be a net positive for mankind is…frankly, it’s so infuriating that I need to punch a fucking wall.

I have creative urges within me. They don’t pop up all that often⁠—I’m not prolific or productive or…well, even all that good at the little bits of art I produce here and there. But I still try because I one day want to create a work of art that might one day help support me financially. I want to work on my craft⁠—whatever it may be⁠—and try to grow my talent so I can create something I can think of as at least “decent”.

And all I’m hearing from you and the other AI techbros is “AI is coming to make you obsolete, you fuckin’ loser”. All I’m hearing is that I should either embrace AI wholeheartedly or extinguish any hope of ever being creative because AI will be able to do what I want to do but better than I’ll ever be able to do it. I don’t want to use AI as a shortcut to creativity because easy always has a cost⁠—and the cost of using AI would be the surrender of my self-respect, my dignity, and my drive to create.

I am no artist, but I want to be one. That is why I think of the artists when AI techbros refuse to do that. That is why I stand with the artists who want AI evangelists to slow their fucking rolls and consider the consequences of their evangelism becoming reality. That is why I am against using machine “creativity” to replace human creativity.

Now tell me again how I don’t deserve to stand in this argument because I’m “thinking of the artists”. I fucking insist.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

If that makes me passionate, irrational, and altogether pissed the fuck off at the AI evangelists, so fucking be it. But someone needs to argue for the artists, because I sure as shit don’t see you doin’ it.

Irrational arguments tend to be less persuasive. Even in places where you make a good point, it can get ignored because it’s covered up by the emotion. I think you have made good points, but I also think that the argument of “we should not advance AI art because I like human artists” doesn’t add to that.

That you still seem to think the idea of replacing people with machines in regards to creating art of any kind⁠—of replacing human creativity with machine “creativity”, of putting human artists “out of business” and making potential future artists give up because they can’t compete with AI art⁠—would be a net positive for mankind is…frankly, it’s so infuriating that I need to punch a fucking wall.

Now tell me again how I don’t deserve to stand in this argument because I’m “thinking of the artists”. I fucking insist.

I don’t believe that I have ever made a value judgment on whether the advance of AI art would be good or bad in any of my posts. In fact, I think I’ve been rather clear that my opinion is “it could go either way.”

I also don’t think that I’ve ever implied you don’t have standing to argue your position. I don’t think that any “standing” is required.

What started as a simple snark about “Bad human writing vs. Bad AI writing, could you even tell anyway?” has turned into me being all Devil’s Advocate up in here. Shrug.

I have creative urges within me. They don’t pop up all that often⁠—I’m not prolific or productive or…well, even all that good at the little bits of art I produce here and there. But I still try because I one day want to create a work of art that might one day help support me financially. I want to work on my craft⁠—whatever it may be⁠—and try to grow my talent so I can create something I can think of as at least “decent”.

If I were to create something artistic, it would most likely be a video game of some kind. I look at something like Stardew Valley and I’m absolutely awestruck that one person did that; and I’d like to think that maybe, maybe I could do something like that too. So, I truly wish you all the best in someday achieving your goal.

And all I’m hearing from you and the other AI techbros is “AI is coming to make you obsolete, you fuckin’ loser”.

If I’m coming across as an “AI techbro” it’s only because I truly don’t understand why you’re drawing the technological advancement line where you are, except as an emotional response.

Speeding up production? Replacing physical labor? Automating analytics? No problem, it seems. Mechanized creativity, though? NOW WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR!!

I don’t understand why you value “human artistic creativity” above other activities when it comes to what things should or should not be done by machines, except, again, that it’s because art has a particular value to you that swinging a pickaxe doesn’t. To me, they’re identical, and every argument you’re making against AI art sounds no different than every argument made against every other technology that made someone’s job obsolete – but there’s what seems to me to be the cognitive dissonance on your part of “well things got better when those jobs were eliminated, but things will get worse if THIS job is!”

But then, who knows. If you were alive when the bulldozer was invented, and you were in the miner/laborer community, and you hoped that someday you could swing a shovel with the best of them, you might have been right there protesting the dozer just like you’re protesting AI art right now, because it represents potentially ending a way of life you care deeply about.

Ooh… You’re an artist conservative, and the AI techbros are the filthy liberals! /ducks

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:12

I’m spending way too much time and way too many of my spoons on this argument, so this is going to be my last comment on this article.

I also think that the argument of “we should not advance AI art because I like human artists” doesn’t add to that.

Then let’s think about slowing down on advancing AI art because of the ability to generate deepfake audio and imagery that sounds and looks like it could be real. Let’s think about cooling all the AI advocacy when most AI models are being trained on works that the people making those models didn’t have (and likely wouldn’t have gotten) permission to use. That good enough for ya?

I also don’t think that I’ve ever implied you don’t have standing to argue your position.

You’ve told me twice now that my emotions are getting in the way of my argument. And maybe this is my emotions inflaming my view, but I don’t like being told that my arguments suck because I’m being passionate about what I’m arguing for. That basically reads as “shut the fuck up, dipshit” to me, no matter how nicely you put it.

Speeding up production? Replacing physical labor? Automating analytics? No problem, it seems. Mechanized creativity, though? NOW WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR!!

One of the things that makes humanity special is its drive to create. Whether that’s art or technology or even new and exciting ways to kill each other with frightening efficiency, we create because we are driven to create. Whether that’s us having a “soul” or our biology fucking us up somewhere or whatever else you can think of is irrelevant. We create because we can.

AI bros and rich motherfuckers alike see that drive to create not as something to acknowledge and celebrate in the best possible way, but as something to automate as if creativity should be a fucking assembly line. They spit on the very idea of human creativity, or at least paying for people to be creative. Movie studios, book publishers, etc. would refuse to pay writers to write books and scripts if AI could do the job well enough that most people don’t give a shit. Artists who dabble in drawing, painting, and so on could be rendered “obsolete” by AI generators that can replicate styles after a few hours of training and a few more hours of fucking around with the settings and prompts. Musicians, voice actors, and other people who work with sound might find themselves out of their jobs if AI can advance far enough to make that a possibility.

The AI evangelists are pushing way too hard, way too fast, for a technology⁠—and a future⁠—that will disrupt every creative industry in the world. I’m not calling for the death of AI (or its advocates). I’m not even trying to be wholly against AI, though I know I might sound that way. What I’m doing is saying that maybe the people pushing this technology so hard need to slow the fuck down, consider what the technology might do to those industries (and the people in them), and⁠—at the barest minimum⁠—discuss what possible safeguards could be put in place (either technological or legal) to make sure machine “creativity” won’t replace human creativity any time soon.

I don’t understand why you value “human artistic creativity” above other activities when it comes to what things should or should not be done by machines

As I said: Humans are driven to create, regardless of the reason why. We write, we draw, we play music, we sing songs, we paint, we photograph, we build buildings…we create, motherfucker. And AI bros want to take that and turn into another shitty automated process. Writing a book is not nearly the same thing as swinging a pickaxe or ringing up someone at a register. Thinking they are the same is the original sin of AI evangelists.

You’re an artist conservative, and the AI techbros are the filthy liberals!

If I am a “conservative”, I wish to conserve the idea that human creativity is special and should be treated as such. I wish to conserve the idea that machine “creativity” isn’t, and shouldn’t ever be, a replacement for artists of any kind at any skill level. I wish to conserve the idea that we shouldn’t be looking to automate creativity, to push people out of so much as even trying to write or draw or make music, to rob humanity of its drive to create because a machine can do it better than most of humanity.

Machine men with machine minds and machine hearts⁠—men who care only about money and power⁠—want to replace flesh-and-blood creativity with machine art. So please, I insist: Tell me why I should lie down and let them.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:13

Machine men with machine minds and machine hearts⁠—men who care only about money and power⁠—want to replace flesh-and-blood creativity with machine art. So please, I insist: Tell me why I should lie down and let them.

I could go more in depth as well, but I don’t want to cause you to use spoons you don’t want to use. So I’ll just say this:

If it’s what you believe in, more power to you. Fight the good fight and try to convince others of the righteousness of your cause.

In the end, it won’t be the “Machine men with machine minds and machine hearts” that bring on the human-creativity-free future you’re concerned about. It’ll be the masses who see the AI-generated stuff and say “meh, who cares if a machine made it, it works for me” that will really bring it about, and the apathy to do it is already here. Convincing them that they shouldn’t accept that idea is how you’re going to stop it from happening.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:14

Actually, it’s already happening.

In Japan.

Pixiv is FLODED with so much AI stuff that it’s placed a stop on AI Art prompters from getting monetized.

Turns out “the masses” actually are that uncaring.

I was the proverbial fly on the wall when I was introduced to it. It was called “procedural art” and I thought it would be a cool hobby to have.

Now, though, after realizing that the masses are that uncaring, not so much.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re: Moore’s Law is a good metaphor

I absolutely think this technology will continue to improve an exponential rate. My anecdotal evidence seems to verify it; every week (sometimes twice a week) offers up some major new technological advancement with AI.

Is this a hunch? Sure. But I’m not the only one who’s worried about it, as I see headlines all the time how AI engineers are freaked out. So I’m going to go with my gut on this one.

nasch (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

You’re assuming that a technology that has seen rapid developments in the past couple of years will continue to develop at the same rate indefinitely. That is both statistically and technically illiterate.

True, typically technology doesn’t improve at a steady rate but at an accelerating rate. But I have a feeling that isn’t what you meant.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

Instead of being the innovators, Hollywood will have been beaten by more nimble competitors unwilling to abide by union restrictions on what tools they can and can’t use.

You lost me at Hollywood being innovative.

Hollywood takes brilliant source materials (Australian satire, Japanese horror, Korean storytelling and criticism of their society) and turns it into boring box-office bullshit starring white people. Usually bad.

Individual directors (and sometimes, their teams) are creative. Hollywood execs are so far removed from creativity the the most creative thing they do is tax evasion.

Just my opinion, of course. Wouldn’t want any Hollywood exec to sue me for defamation, after all…

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:

We agree that most of what Hollywood creates is not innovative. Basically, the larger the budget, the less innovative films tends to be.

But I’m using innovative here in a different way—business innovate by solving problems in new ways and stay competitive. Has nothing to do with the originality of their storytelling/filmmaking.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

Hollywood created Night of the Lepus. Based off a brilliant (the reviews say that), Australian satire called Year of the Rabbit. Hollywood ignored nuance, context, and the absurdity of the satire and content and made one of the worst horror films in history, whose ONLY claim to fame were the clever techniques to show rabbits moving in slow-motion.

On, and pale imitations of The Ring and REC, both excellent foreign horror movies. Same ignoring of context and nuance.

This isn’t to say that Hollywood isn’t creative. There’s some excellent films made in America that actually have creativity, nuance and actually pays SOME attention to context. Hell, some of the greatest directors ARE Hollywood ones.

But when I say Hollywood’s most creative action is tax evasion, yes, I was referring to the business bullshit. I’m also saying that the extent of their creativity also involes lobbying and political donations. And the oft-mentioned creative accounting.

Yes, we get it, Hollywood exec can and will cut costs. Not much different from execs ALL OVER THE WORLD, irrespective of industry.

You claim that you are for the writers, but you’ve mentioned you are pretty out of touch with the writers and cleverly ignored how the WGA does business.

And there’s also your promotion of NFTs.

Hard for us to be convinced you’re on the creatives’ side, especially when some of us DO see the reality, talk and interact with artists, and have FELT THEIR FUCKING PAIN.

It is extremely snide of me to say this, but take a fucking walk in their shoes first before you blithely promote AI. Because we all aready fucking do embrace automation and whatnot.

And it’s HURTING US.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

You claim that you are for the writers, but you’ve mentioned you are pretty out of touch with the writers and cleverly ignored how the WGA does business.

I have always been transparent about how long I have been out of the industry, and honestly forgot about the inner workings of residuals, etc. Not trying to be cagey or anything.

Rather than saying this distance makes me “out of touch”, I feel that gives me a precious objectivity writers obviously don’t have. Can’t have, really—they’re trying to defend their way of life. How can anyone really expect writers to embrace the future if it means a radical re-defining of everything they know? Likewise, if coachmen were lobbying against cars, which side of history would you want to be on then? If embracing cars means coachmen need to find new employment, that is the unfortunate price to pay in a free market that embraces more efficient business models. The terrible truth about innovation is maybe one sector gets hurt badly, but the rest of the world always benefits greatly.

And look—I do stand with the writers on their demands to get a fair share of the huge profits from work they create. It’s right there in the headline.

Yet I cannot in good faith stand with writers about AI—it’s backward thinking and makes them anti-competitive overall. It’s like they’re asking for the world to pass them by. They should be the ones leading the charge.

And there’s also your promotion of NFTs.

This has been mentioned before, and I’m genuinely puzzled by it. The NFT objection seems to be hurled as a mark of shame upon me, like the branding of snake oil salesman, or whatever.

So let’s address this head on to get it over with.

I am a fine art photographer by trade. I sell physical art, and a related avenue of my business is selling art as NFT’s. That part of my business is brand new and I’m just getting it off the ground because I’ve been preoccupied building other parts of my business (it’s just me, so I have to focus my time strategically). Thus, NFT’s are a key part of what I offer.

Perhaps many here are unaware, but art collectors are willing to spend thousands of dollars on collecting NFT’s, so NFT’s are a proven venue for art collection and a venue I have no shame in conducting. So when people bring it up as some sort of a black mark on my reputation, I am mystified as to its relevance.

If you object to selling NFT’s in the art space, is it because you think NFT’s are intrinsically scammy? Do you have environment concerns about NFT’s? Or do you think crypto in general is one big pool of scambait?

I have answers to each of those questions but suffice it to say that I don’t think any of those objections hold weight, which is why I plan to sell NFT’s of my art, despite not having had the time to flesh out that part of my art business.

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Anonymous Coward says:

The studios’ response? Let’s talk about it next year.

Sorry. This isn’t a response. This is a refusal to engage in negotiation. Even if the WGA’s opening position is flawed, the studios flatly said “we’ll do whatever we damned well like and you’ll lie back and take it.”

If they’d said, “we accept for one year, then revisit the issue”, or even “we’d like to make a working group to explore the issue with the WGA”, that would be negotiation.

(Given the exponential growth of AI in just the last two months, an entire year will feel like a century, and the studios know this, but that’s beside the point.)

Naw, that’s entirely the point: The studios don’t want to be bound on the point of using AI in writing. Not even in the slightest. ’cause anything they agree to now will bind them until the standard contract is renegotiated. … which will be when the next strike comes around, because that’s the only way the studios bend at all.

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Anonymous Coward says:

AI-generated content isn’t currently protected by copyright. What studio would invest millions of dollars into an intellectual property they couldn’t lock down with copyright protection?

… by translating the script into a movie and publishing said movie. Bam. Copyright. Substantial similarity would cut down on people taking the (uncopyrighted script) and simply making their own movie. Leaks? Presumably, the studio making the original movie would have a leg up on getting the movie into the public. First to publish.

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MSL says:

Will some writers lose their jobs to AI bots? Perhaps. Should they lose their jobs? Yes—if their job can be done better by AI.

Love to make statements about the desirability of someone losing their job completely divorced from any acknowledgement of how the American economy currently works.

[U]nions only protect their members, often at the expense of creating a more efficient business.

Considering some of the odious things that have historically been done to workers in the name of ‘creating a more efficient business’, I don’t think this is the snazzy remark the author intended it to be.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re:

Look, I don’t want people to lose their jobs, but I’m just making common sense observations about how businesses think in the real world. To clarify further:

Let’s say two people do the exact same job. Person A does it for $200/hour, and Person B does it for $50/hour.

Would you keep paying Person A $200/hour? Of course not. You’d probably fire Person A and hire another person at $50/hour, if you could. Then you’d be paying half as much to deliver twice as much work as before, a 400% increase in productivity.

This is what I mean by the market always chooses greater efficiency. Maybe the numbers are less obvious than that but you get the idea.

Now let’s imagine the same two people. Person A is still paid $200/hour and delivers work at 100% efficiency—great work, perfect! Person B is still paid $50/hour but with only 80% efficiency—it’s not great work but it gets the job done. Do you still choose Person B?

Of course you do.

Because markets don’t need 100% efficiency when 80% efficiency is also available. (Personally, I myself prefer 100% efficiency because I’m a perfectionist at heart. But in software circles, there’s a very good reason why they advocate for “release early, release often”: fast iteration with an imperfect minimum viable product works.)

This is the crux of Clay Christiansen’s argument in The Innovator’s Dilemma: industries get disrupted by entrants who offer a product or service that is good enough (i.e., 80% efficient) to compete with the 100% efficient incumbent.

In this scenario, AI is the entrant offering 80% efficiency. AI’s work isn’t great but it’s good enough to beat 100% perfect human work.

I don’t relish saying it, but I am duty bound to call it as I see it.

People are going to lose jobs because AI can do their jobs better. So either they master this new tech or they get left behind.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re:

People are going to lose jobs because AI can do their jobs better. So either they master this new tech or they get left behind.

And what do you think should be done for the people that your oh-so-glorious AI technology leaves behind⁠—especially if it leaves those people living on the street? This is the basic-ass question you and other AI evangelists seem unable or unwilling to answer. That you still don’t have an answer after being told as much (multiple times!) is telling.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:2

I’ve got an even grimmer prospect.

It’s called filling the boots of a soldier, then packed off to die in Bumfuckistana because some damn politician lied to Congress about the diplomatic status of a country, ala Nixon, or worse, because the current Preaident wanted a fucking war.

Why that scenario? I dunno, because that’s going to be the situation in China and probably the situation in Russia NOW.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:

And what do you think should be done for the people that your oh-so-glorious AI technology leaves behind⁠—especially if it leaves those people living on the street? This is the basic-ass question you and other AI evangelists seem unable or unwilling to answer. That you still don’t have an answer after being told as much (multiple times!) is telling.

The exact same things that were done for buggy coachmen when the automobile put them out of business, or the factory worker when the assembly line cost them their job, or the laborer when the bulldozer cost them their job, or the farm worker when the harvester or automatic hay baler cost them their job… the list goes on.

Technological advances almost always cost someone their job, but I don’t see you advocating against other technologies that have eliminated jobs and put people on the street over the past couple hundred years. Or do you propose that the writer/artist’s job is somehow more valuable than every other job in history that has been rendered obsolete by technology?

(I realize I’m speaking somewhat speculatively, as there is a very good chance that AI will never be good enough to match human artistic creativity, and this entire argument is academic.)

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2

Technological advances almost always cost someone their job, but I don’t see you advocating against other technologies that have eliminated jobs and put people on the street over the past couple hundred years.

But those new technologies created other openings for people willing to put in the time and energy to learn the skills needed for jobs involving those technologies. AI techbros are evangelizing about how AI is going to replace flesh-and-blood artists. It’s one thing to advance technology and ask people to “get with the times” or “learn a new trade” or whatever. But what happens when you advance technology that a fair number of rich motherfuckers see as a means to replace people in the name of increasing a profit margin? That’s the big question about all this AI evangelizing, and none of those doing the evangelizing seem all that interested in answering it…or, at least, answering it in a way that actually accounts for the people who will be most affected by AI replacing actual artists (i.e, the artists).

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:3

But those new technologies created other openings for people willing to put in the time and energy to learn the skills needed for jobs involving those technologies. AI techbros are evangelizing about how AI is going to replace flesh-and-blood artists.

We see that now, decades later. I’m not so sure we saw it then, when bulldozer techbros were evangelizing about how bulldozers were going to replace flesh-and-blood laborers.

How do you know that it won’t be exactly the same with AI 100 years from now?

How do I know it will, for that matter? I don’t.

All I’m really trying to get you to see is that you’re pro-tech when talking about past advances because you have the benefit of hindsight, and you’re anti-tech when talking about something that’s happening right now in a field that’s important to you, and you’re in the weeds with no idea how it’s going to turn out.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:4

How do you know that it won’t be exactly the same with AI 100 years from now?

I can make a case for technologies ilke the bulldozer making the work it’s meant to do easier without necessarily replacing a whole staff of people. AI evangelists and rich motherfuckers (there’s a fair bit of overlap in those two groups) are literally trying to replace human artists with machine “artists”.

you’re pro-tech when talking about past advances because you have the benefit of hindsight, and you’re anti-tech when talking about something that’s happening right now in a field that’s important to you

I’m not “anti-tech”. I’m “anti-AI”⁠—and that’s in the sense of “using AI to replace flesh-and-blood artists is a fucking bad idea and I wish the people whom that idea excites would take a step or ten back and look at all the possible consequences⁠—including the negative ones⁠—of that idea”.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:5

AI is just one kind of tech, though. And we don’t know if it’s going to end careers like you’re suggesting, or like the “AI techbros” you mention are suggesting. It might just change those careers. Going from hand-drawn to digital animation changed the field. Did it destroy jobs? I honestly don’t know if it did or not, but it definitely changed them.

AI might just do the same. Where in the past a writer did all the work on their own, maybe in the future they do a prompt, get a result, edit it, and then publish. Maybe it even means that in the time it took them to write one quality novel before, they can now write two, and their standard of living actually goes up.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m seeing a lot of AI-generated stuff showing up in my DeviantArt feed. My jury is still out on whether that’s a good or bad thing.

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Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:6

And we don’t know if it’s going to end careers like you’re suggesting, or like the “AI techbros” you mention are suggesting. It might just change those careers.

If nobody is certain about the fallout of trying to automate creativity itself, maybe the people working to do exactly that might wanna back up a bit and ask themselves why they’re pushing so hard for it to happen.

Stephen T. Stone (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:8

Nobody can be 100% certain of anything⁠—that would require them to be an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent supernatural deity. But we can make incredibly educated guesses about the outcomes of certain actions/trends and figure out if we want those outcomes to come about. For example: If AI gets good enough that a lot of people are okay with automating human creativity itself, do you really want to make people who might otherwise have become artists feel like they shouldn’t even try because a computer can do it better?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:9

I feel like we’re just going around in circles now.

If AI gets good enough that a lot of people are okay with automating human creativity itself, do you really want to make people who might otherwise have become artists feel like they shouldn’t even try because a computer can do it better?

No, they can try, but they need to be realistic that only a few will be successful.

This is generally the case though, to the point that we can Mad Libs your statement:

If {technology} gets good enough that a lot of people are okay with automating {human function}, do you really want to make people who might otherwise have become {profession that uses human function} feel like they shouldn’t even try because {technology} can do it better?

After all, for example, there are still professional carpenters who design and build beautiful furniture, and are able to support themselves in that profession, even though there’s also IKEA. The fact that IKEA exists shouldn’t outright stop someone from pursuing carpentry, although that person should have realistic expectations about their chances of succeeding in that career choice.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

If we all were going to be realistic about our expectations, then we all should become insurance salesmen, real estate agents and/or landlords then.

Oh wait, the next few generations can only do the first two, and the econoemy can only support so many of those jobs.

So how will a country deal with the hordes of unemployed and underemployed who cannot be socially mobile? WAR, like how Russia is managing their self-inflicted losing war and eventually, China when it invades Taiwan?

Because the world is looking like it MIGHT do just that.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

So how will a country deal with the hordes of unemployed and underemployed who cannot be socially mobile? WAR, like how Russia is managing their self-inflicted losing war and eventually, China when it invades Taiwan?

Because the world is looking like it MIGHT do just that.

Who knows? Probably. Violence and societal collapse tends to happen when people become desperate and/or hopeless. Humans haven’t changed. To quote Battlestar Galactica: “All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again.”

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:10

No, they can try, but they need to be realistic that only a few will be successful.

And what if they don’t want to be “successful” in the sense that they’re making millions of dollars⁠—what if they just want to make enough to, say, pay the rent? Patreon is full of artists trying to do exactly that. And you’re all but saying that AI should replace them if AI can do their art better than they can. Do you seriously not see how fucked up that sounds?

there are still professional carpenters who design and build beautiful furniture, and are able to support themselves in that profession

People pay a premium for that work because it isn’t some assembly line bullshit like you can find at IKEA. It isn’t easily replicable.

I can go to 4chan right now and find some AI art that is at least passable enough to replace human-made art. Therein lies the problem: If an artist whose work would fetch a premium price in re: buying a commission from them can have their style automated by an AI model, most people would probably be okay with having an AI-created image of their character in that artist’s style without having to pay for the privilege of the artist themselves making it.

And you seem either unable or unwilling to consider how that might become a problem for more artists than the one in the hypothetical.

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re: Re:11

And what if they don’t want to be “successful” in the sense that they’re making millions of dollars⁠—what if they just want to make enough to, say, pay the rent? Patreon is full of artists trying to do exactly that. And you’re all but saying that AI should replace them if AI can do their art better than they can. Do you seriously not see how fucked up that sounds?

It’s no better or worse than saying that bulldozers and backhoes should replace laborers because the machines can do the work better than they can.

Therein lies the problem: If an artist whose work would fetch a premium price in re: buying a commission from them can have their style automated by an AI model, most people would probably be okay with having an AI-created image of their character in that artist’s style without having to pay for the privilege of the artist themselves making it.

Insofar as that’s a “problem:” that’s not a problem with AI, that’s a problem with people. I can pay $100 for a burger prepared by a world-famous chef, or I can pay $5 for some ground beef and spices at the grocery and make a burger at home using a copycat recipe I found on the Internet. For most people, the copycat will be just fine …or is that a “problem” as well?

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bloof (profile) says:

Unless the WGA fight this tooth and nail, writers will lose their jobs to AI, not because the AI can do it better, but because they can do it CHEAPER, and that’s what this boils down to in the end. Fewer jobs with lower wages and less innovation in any aspect other than cost cutting by the studios to make the line go up.

Also f*ck the tech bros who snidely say ‘Well, they should get jobs in other fields’ like there are huge industries out there that haven’t been decimated by automation and outsourcing, or aren’t facing the same threat from AI as writing. Web design, game design, coding, they’re next, and replacement jobs aren’t going to be coming, not from the people salivating over AI, their big contributions tend to be pissing away millions of dollars of VC money on blockchain tech, NFTs or with an app.

Anonymous Coward says:

The WGA speaks for at least a majority of writers in its guild, and that majority is dead wrong about AI.

What’s the basis for this claim? In particular, how do we know what the majority think about A.I.?

I guess, assuming the members voted for their leadership, we can assume the leaders do “speak for” at least a plurality of people who voted. But that has little to do with whether the things they’re saying represent the members’ views.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re: Plurality

Fair point. I’ll concede that. I don’t actually know how the WGA leadership arrived at their position, but I think it’s safe to assume they represent screenwriters at least in the same way that a government represents its citizens.

If the WGA leadership is way off topic, they’ll get voted out. So I’m betting they speak for the majority.

I’d love to be a fly on the wall to see what their strategy was here. Was it, “Let’s start with zero tolerance and walk it back from there”?

Anonymous Coward says:

Re: Re:

I think it’s safe to assume they represent screenwriters at least in the same way that a government represents its citizens.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. People bitch all the time that they’re voting for “the lesser of two evils”; that the politicians don’t really understand the problems but want to be seen as doing something; etc.

In other words, I think it’s probable that the members have heard of A.I., and maybe are vaguely worried but don’t really have a strong opinion; and the leaders don’t really know much either, but would love to claim at the next election that they singlehandedly stopped A.I. from stealing jobs.

fairuse (profile) says:

I'm not a writer. Seems some union ball-busting

OK. Some hate unions regardless of the industry – on worker side, certification for tech skills, rates of pay are set, and benefits.. No clue how WGA works.

Safety first is more than words. Maybe for WGA safety first for A.I. tools is study and set rules now.

Last word on union members – A skill (think pyro & stabby/shooting stuff) certified via training & testing and standards like Time-In-Grade do cost a production more money.

I personally would not wing it, right , Mr Baldwin.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Anonymous Coward says:

Man, screw AI in Hollywood et al. It’ll be used purely as a tool to give us worse shit for more money at the expense of everyone who’s busted their ass for years.

WGA saying ‘we know what you’re trying to do and we’re going to try to stop it’ to AI is possibly the most righteous thing in the strike action, right up there with ‘stop screwing us over streaming’.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Luke says:

They're striking against their bosses, not against AI

I generally agree that the majority of writers have a myopic view about AI, and it’s ability to be useful. But the writers guild isn’t striking against AI companies, they are striking against their bosses. And they don’t want their bosses using, and misusing this technology to not hire union writers, or cut the work they do.

I do think what every creative union is missing is a plan for how to use AI. I for one think that these unions should have a sunk works, or committee trying this stuff out, and figuring out a pro-worker version. And maybe one they can own.

Yeah they’re luddites. Luddites in the sense that they are using collective action to fight for economic justice.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re:

I do think what every creative union is missing is a plan for how to use AI. I for one think that these unions should have a sunk works, or committee trying this stuff out, and figuring out a pro-worker version. And maybe one they can own.

Well said. All creatives need to be the ones rolling these new tools into their workflow. This is another classic iteration of Clayton Christensen’s Innovator’s Dilemma—either you disrupt your own business model to remain relevant, or someone else will disrupt it for you and make you obsolete.

Christensen actually recommends exactly what you’re suggesting: someone inside an incumbent organization should be given a directive to compete with the company by any means available—sometimes without even knowing that they’re working for the company they’re competing against. If they succeed, then their new disruptive business model becomes the incumbent’s business model. All creatives—indeed, all businesses—should be doing likewise.

Labor unions resist change because disruption (either from within, or from outside) often requires a radical re-ordering of resources… which almost always ends in fewer people being able to do the same amount of work. That goes against the mandate of a labor union—to protect jobs, a way of life, et al.

If screenwriters and other creatives don’t come up with a plan to use AI on their own terms, then the producers will do it for them. I hate that it comes to that, but I do think that’s how this will all play out.

weevie833 (profile) says:

Quality control

I’m too lazy and it’s too late to read all the comments here first before I post this, but I’ll add this hoping someone else hasn’t already done it better.

I sense that the WGA is not so much worried about making their jobs easier – they are more concerned that people who do not have their talent will make them irrelevant. It will no longer be a matter of who can write well – it will be a matter of who can write the best prompt, which is a specialized skill that current writers do not have (yet).

I offer this because I spent my main career as a video editor in the TV advertising business in NYC between 1990 and 2007 during a period of time when two major changes occurred: (1) computers got more powerful and cheaper to the point where anyone could afford them and do studio quality work at home, and (2) the invention of streaming media as a zero-cost entry point for marketing meant the end of traditional budgets for TV commercials. Two other lesser factors were: the acceptance of low-quality UGC on YouTube that made professionals irrelevant, and also the 9-11 attack that got all the experienced producers fired (there was no work for a year).

tl;dr: high-paid professional video editors in fancy NYC boutiques were irrelevant. There was less TV commercial work than ever before, yet, paradoxically, there was never more video editing going on in human history – we just weren’t the ones doing it.

Thus, with ChatGPT et al., WGA realizes that they, too, will be irrelevant and yet there will be more “writing” going on than ever before – but they won’t be the ones doing it. I do agree with their demand to forbid the use of their prior work as ML training.

anonymous says:

Re: Re: Re: Not how it works

Only? You’ll need much more than that. To be able to see what you want to do, what works and how to refine your results, doing it over and over again until it clicks. A writer will much more likely create a worthy and coherent result, than a random person who never done writing before.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
bluegrassgeek (profile) says:

Re: Re: Re:2 No. Just no.

That is laughably ignorant. Writing a prompt is not “the creative part of writing.” Whether it’s for an AI or just scribbled on the back of a napkin, that prompt is nothing without the actual work & earned talent that goes into producing a script or prose.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
Bloof (profile) says:

Re: Re:

For a pittance.

Stop trying to sell this as something that will make the cream rise to the top, that will cause a revolution, a rising tide that will raise all boats. A lot of talented people will drown and the few that remain will be clinging to the doors floating around the yachts of the rich, who can push them off at a whim. We have seen this happen in other industries, conditions don’t get better for those who adapt, who survive the mass layoffs, they get paid less because there are more people after fewer jobs and cheaper almost always trumps better.

Just look at the VFX industries, how companies win oscars while having to file for bankruptcy because they’re not being paid for the amount of work they’re actually doing, nevermind for the quality of work, the fact you want to try and sell a future like that for the writing side of the field as some kind of sunlit upland is grotesque to be honest.

‘Oh the best writers will be fine, don’t worry, they can adapt and do even more work than ever before! Won’t that be great?’

We’ve seen this said over and over again, nobody’s buying it. It’s easy to vomit platitudes when it’s not your livelihood.

Alex Tolley says:

WGA strike and AI

IMO, the WGA’s position on AI is not really about the use of AI, but rather how the studios will remunerate writers using it. For a glorious 30 years after WWII, factory workers saw pay rises linked to productivity. Sadly, that has largely ended, particularly from the 1980s onwards. Ideally, if AI allows a writer to be far more productive, the pay should be about the output per capita, not about hours worked. There is bound to be a loss of jobs as the best writers will produce more (and should be paid for the output) and the poor writers find other employment. It may suck losing your job, but economies do have to evolve. Failing to do so will just shift writing and production out of Hollywood, much like location shooting has moved to Canada and away from the US.

As for the argument that writers produce better quality work, is that universally true? Comedy shows with laugh tracks indicate to me that the jokes are not that good. The scripts for some movies, notably with the 3 Lucas Star Wars prequel movies were almost universally panned by critics. As a SciFi fan, I roll my eyes at the poor scripts in most SciFi movies. Cable tv is notorious as a wasteland of poor-quality shows. Looking back over a lifetime of watching tv shows, how many stand out as truly great rather than just filler entertainment?

I am in general agreement with the author of this piece, but I would add the caveat that what needs to happen is that AI is used but in a way that fairly remunerates the writers rather than screwing them to increase studio profits, a more general issue with employment in what is termed “late stage Capitalism”.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re:

Yeah, a lot of stuff on TV isn’t better simply because it’s written by humans. AI can already match the quality of sitcom writing or Soap Operas.

Remember the hilarious pitch meeting in Network? It perfectly eviscerated just how soulless TV writing (by humans!) was:

These are those four outlines submitted by Universal for an hour series. You needn’t bother to read them; I’ll tell them to you.

The first one is set at a large Eastern law school, presumably Harvard. The series is irresistibly entitled “The New Lawyers.” The running characters are a crusty-but-benign ex-Supreme Court justice, presumably Oliver Wendell Holmes by way of Dr. Zorba; there’s a beautiful girl graduate student; and the local district attorney who is brilliant and sometimes cuts corners.

The second one is called “The Amazon Squad.” The running characters include a crusty-but-benign police lieutenant who’s always getting heat from the commissioner; a hard-nosed, hard-drinking detective who thinks women belong in the kitchen; and the brilliant and beautiful young girl cop who’s fighting the feminist battle on the force.

Up next is another one of those investigative reporter shows. A crusty-but-benign managing editor who’s always gett…
[Diana cuts her off]

If all Hollywood pitch meetings were like this, I think AI could actually improve them.

nerdrage (profile) says:

why AI is a threat

AI can handle the cliched-level of writing. It won’t create a show like Severance but it can handle probably 90% of the shows and movies that get made.

Take Netflix for example, look at the interchangeable fodder they continuously churn out. Why couldn’t AI handle that? Assign AI to write a new Star Wars sequel trilogy. I bet it could do a better job than the incoherent garbage we got.

10% of writing is beyond AI, but that means 90% of writers are endangered by it. The other factor is that Netflix changed the business model for streaming by offering viewers a way to evade the $100/month cable bills and pay $10-$20/month instead.

That’s a lot of money that’s suddenly vanished from the ecosystem, and that trickles down to the writers among others. Streaming is overbuilt with too much disposable fodder. Let them go on strike for a year. Will anyone notice? I’m still catching up on stuff made years ago.

This comment has been deemed insightful by the community.
WarioBarker (profile) says:

Aside from the various great points brought up by Stephen T. Stone and other long-timers above…

I’ve personally done all these things. It’s hard. It’s grunt work. It takes time—many days and often weeks, and sometimes months—to get all of it right, to make sure it lands, that all the parts work in harmony with each other. You add, you take away, you agonize, you celebrate… In the end, you trade 2-12 weeks of your life but finally, the hard part is over. Now you can shop the story around town hoping someone will pay you to write the actual screenplay.

Am I the only one who’s getting a scent of sour grapes here?

You don’t have to be a studio producer to see the value here. Not only does AI save time, but it saves costs, as well.

I agree with this, but not in the “it’ll help writers be more productive” way. I suspect the WGA’s concern here is that studios would use AI writing to minimize human writers’ presence (and thus cost) in the filmmaking process, if not eliminate them entirely. After all, why pay people to write a treatment or screenplay or script when you can just have an AI do it instead? Less time spent waiting for writers, less money spent on hiring writers, and no having to wrangle with those pesky “unions”.

Speaking of unions, your attitude of “This one union was wrong about technology, therefore the WGA is wrong too and history will prove me right!” doesn’t help matters. Yes, AI writing would affect only a single aspect of filmmaking, but it’s one that AI can’t equal humans at because it doesn’t have a heart or emotions to pour into its writing.

tl;dr – Your basic argument is flawed, cheerleading for AI putting human writers out of work and maximizing studios’ profitability while bashing the WGA for daring to have any issue whatsoever with AI (essentially “Don’t they know how great AI is?! Of course they do, but they won’t admit it or use it because they don’t like the fact they’ll be rendered obsolete by it.”). It’s so “AI techbro” it hurts.

rosspruden (profile) says:

Re:

Am I the only one who’s getting a scent of sour grapes here?

No sour grapes from me. I was just illustrating that writers work hard to create something that now can be done in only 3 minutes. Smart writers should be celebrating how much time they can save. It was hard work before, but not anymore. What’s there to be sour about?

I suspect the WGA’s concern here is that studios would use AI writing to minimize human writers’ presence (and thus cost) in the filmmaking process, if not eliminate them entirely.

This is a legit concern, and I’m sure that’s why the WGA is striking.

Here’s where I think most people misunderstand my position: I am agnostic about writers losing jobs. It sucks and I hate to see anyone losing jobs, but markets evolve and disruptive innovations always mean some people will lose their jobs.

Now if it means people are losing their jobs without reason, I side unequivocally with the unions. But if writers lose their jobs because AI can do their job better/faster/cheaper?

People lose jobs because those jobs can be done better/faster/cheaper by a disruptive innovation. We saw it with coachmen and cars, we saw it with ice block makers and refrigerators, and with any similar such automation machine. AI is merely the latest chapter in that story.

Paying humans to do a job that an AI can do better is a compassionate choice. I just don’t see businesses making those kinds of compassionate choices—I mean, we are talking about the free market, right? Businesses can’t stay competitive if they keep making inefficient business decisions. Sooner or later, someone is going to do the one thing everyone has been shying away from, the one thing that incumbents dare not do for fear of imploding their own business model.

So of course the WGA is going on strike—they are justifiably defending their jobs against a potential fatal blow of the ultimate automation machine. But let’s all be clear about their motives… the WGA isn’t going on strike to make movies better, the WGA is going on strike because their members don’t want to adapt to a changing market.

If AI can do 90% of a writer’s work, then many writers may in fact lose their jobs because they refuse to adapt. It’s the smart writers who will become more productive and thrive in the new system—instead of writing 1 script every year, they’ll be able to write 1 new script a month (or more). Production can then be supercharged with a flood of new content coming from hybrid writer-AI teams. This has the potential to usher in a new Golden Era of filmmaking… although at the terrible human cost of all those writers who chose not to adapt. Sadly, history has shown this scenario play out too many times. Perhaps this time we can learn from our past?

Thus, the WGA is just delaying the inevitable. By boycotting AI in any way, they may protect their jobs in the short-term, but in the long term, they rob the industry of a future that may be very exciting and unpredictable. Writer-AI hybrid teams might be able to generate extremely original work, and lots of it… but we’ll never see that work because the WGA is throwing a tantrum about a time-saving technology they don’t want anything to do with.

By the time the WGA wakes up to regret that choice, it will be too late to pivot. Just like every incumbent before them—candlemakers, landline companies, coachmen, ice block sellers, Kodak—they’ll find themselves suddenly overtaken by more nimble competitors and wonder what they could have done differently to prevent it.

WarioBarker (profile) says:

Re: Re:

I was just illustrating that writers work hard to create something that now can be done in only 3 minutes.

And what does that 3-minute result look like? Does it have creativity? Heart? Soul? Wit? Imagination? Cleverness? A message? Is it engaging? Does it even make sense?

…or does none of that even matter anymore?

People lose jobs because those jobs can be done better/faster/cheaper by a disruptive innovation. We saw it with coachmen and cars, we saw it with ice block makers and refrigerators, and with any similar such automation machine. AI is merely the latest chapter in that story.

Writing is a fundamental building block of any television or film production, among other mediums. Numerous advancements have replaced certain jobs with other ones; AI writing would only eliminate jobs, and studios know this.

But let’s all be clear about their motives… the WGA isn’t going on strike to make movies better, the WGA is going on strike because their members don’t want to adapt to a changing market.

The writers are on strike mainly because of streaming residuals, because they’re getting screwed over by Hollywood (again). AI is a side beef.

It’s the smart writers who will become more productive and thrive in the new system—instead of writing 1 script every year, they’ll be able to write 1 new script a month (or more).

And with substantially less human element in them, I’m willing to bet. But who cares about that when we can push quantity over quality, amirite?

Production can then be supercharged with a flood of new content coming from hybrid writer-AI teams.

New =/= good. But who cares about actually making good content when we can make more content?

Writer-AI hybrid teams might be able to generate extremely original work, and lots of it…

…orrrr they’ll be pushed into churning out formulaic bullcrap due to pressure to keep up. Besides that, AI is trained on prior art, so anything it comes up with will likely be derivative and unimaginative.

but we’ll never see that work because the WGA is throwing a tantrum about a time-saving technology they don’t want anything to do with.

This isn’t writers being against writers using AI to help in the writing process – it’s writers being against studios using AI in the writing process (and directing the money saved from not hiring writers to execs’ pockets).

That you’d frame the writers’ issue here as “throwing a tantrum” suggests to me that your arguments really aren’t worth listening to.

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