Joe Konrath Explains Why Authors Shouldn't Fear File Sharing
from the it-happens,-move-on dept
Simon was the first of a few of you to send over a blog post by author Joe Konrath discussing why he doesn’t worry much about his books being available online via unauthorized file sharing avenues. The whole blog post is so reasonable and well argued that you really should just go read the whole thing, so here are a few snippets to get you interested:
People want to share files. There is this much file sharing going on for a reason. It’s what people want. Fighting piracy is fighting human nature. This is a battle no one can win. Getting your undies in a bunch at the thought of someone copying your ebook is a waste of a good ulcer. Worry about some problem that eventually will be solved. Like world hunger. Or cancer. Or war. Those will be conquered before file sharing is….
There is ZERO reliable evidence that file-sharing hurts sales. A shared file does not equal a lost sale, any more than someone reading a library book is a lost sale.
The best part is a bit later in the post, where he tries to pre-empt the usual “but it’s theft!!!!” arguments with a series of Q&As that read something like many of the comment exchanges we end up having here at Techdirt, by pointing out that it’s not the same as stealing a tangible object, and even so it doesn’t matter. He also takes on another popular argument made in our comments: but what if artists don’t want to embrace new business models:
Q: But Joe, if everyone steals your ebooks, how will you make money?
A: Show me an artist bankrupted by piracy, and we’ll revisit this question.
Q: No, seriously, in a future where everything is free, how will…
A: We’re not in a future where everything is free. But I’ll play the “let’s pretend” game. Let’s pretend that all ebooks are free. How will writers make money? The same way all media makes money. Advertising, merchandising, and licensing.
Q: But I don’t want ads in ebooks.
A: I don’t want ads in anything. But that’s how capitalism works. Deal with it.
Again, the whole thing is a worthwhile read, but highlights a key point that we keep trying to make over and over again. So many keep focusing in on the whole “piracy!” aspect, and that’s such a huge waste of time. Why focus on trying to stop something you don’t like, when you can put your energy into creating a positive situation that you do like? Why focus on trying to punish people you don’t like, when you have so many opportunities to happily engage with people you do like?
Filed Under: authors, business models, file sharing, joe konrath
Comments on “Joe Konrath Explains Why Authors Shouldn't Fear File Sharing”
The value of free
I notice that the value of free e-books hasn’t escaped Amazon — there is a constant list of (mostly back-catalog) Kindle books from current authors available for $0. The reason? Find an author you like, and odds are good that you’ll go and buy other (paid) books from the same author.
Except for a small number of blockbuster titles, the pirate e-book “scene” (such as it is) isn’t a great place to find new releases — instead, it’s much more likely that a reader will download back catalog (or import) books (often not otherwise available in e-book format) and go to the paid venues for current releases.
Speaking hypothetically, of course…
“People want to share files. There is this much file sharing going on for a reason. It’s what people want.”
People want to tell other people what they have learned and discovered, and what they find enlightening or uplifting. They want to share the knowledge they have gleaned. Its human nature.
Nice
Between this and the ABA Journal story, today might be the sunniest news day on Techdirt ever. Hopefully I’m proved wrong tomorrow…
” I don’t want ads in anything. But that’s how capitalism works. Deal with it.” – the sad truth is the future will likely make you pay for the ebook anyway, just in ways that are even less enjoyable than the current option. there continues to be no free lunch (just someone else picking up the tab)
Re: Re:
“the sad truth is the future will likely make you pay for the ebook anyway, just in ways that are even less enjoyable than the current option. there continues to be no free lunch (just someone else picking up the tab)”
Q: What if I do not want the e-book, will they still make me pay anyway?
A: Yes, one way or another – your money will end up in their pockets
addendum
kokran has posted an addendum to the blog based on comments. it is worth reading.
Re: addendum
This is true. Here is a point he brings up:
He’s right. But he (unintentionally) brings up another point.
People who share files don’t make any money from file sharing, and most sites that “facilitate” infringement don’t make very much money either.
The people who earn the most money from “piracy” are… anti-piracy groups. None of which pay royalties, of course. I wonder when some author/musician/whatever is going to sue them?
Re: Re: addendum
The people who earn the most money from “piracy” are… anti-piracy groups. None of which pay royalties, of course.
So we can now identify the “losses” to piracy accurately – it is equal to the turnover of the anti-piracy groups!
Re: Re: addendum
karl, i would say that the top public torrent sites are making a mint. if they are not, it is only from lack of intelligence, not from anything else. there have plenty of page views, plenty of ad space, and most of them have “pay direct download” options, or misleading fake pay download links that certainly are bringing in the income. they also have little overhead because they are not actually paying bandwidth for their content, making it a very effecient model indeed. a lack of income would only show a lack of business sense, nothing else.
Re: Re: Re: addendum
Yeah.. imagine if the recording industry showed an ounce of *horror* business sense and produced services that direct that money to themselves!
Re: Re: Re: addendum
“i would say that the top public torrent sites are making a mint. if they are not, it is only from lack of intelligence, not from anything else.”
Based upon all the hot air given others about research vs opinion by the lowercasecoward, one might expect a bit of research from same … however, it seems that is too much to ask.
In addition, the point about anti-piracy business profits goes unaddressed. Nice attempt to deflect attention, seems it did not work.
Re: Re: Re:2 addendum
since i am aware of and know people who have run similar sites, i can tell you without a doubt that there is plenty of money in them. there are idiots who run them in hobby mode and dont make a cent, but most of them are solid businesses bringing in significant money. i can remember what the ad rates were through black label ads (pud from f-ckedcompany.com’s adult / not entirely legal ad company) for some of the big file share sites, and they were making it hand over fist.
as for antipiracy profits, all i can say is that a $1500 rate against a few hours of lawyer times, filing fees, and the like doesnt exactly leave them with tons of money. unlike torrent and other pirate sites, these guys actually have overhead and pay taxes.
Re: Re: Re:3 addendum
TAM’s awesome evidence: “Because I said so!”
Re: Re: Re:4 addendum
i learned that from mike.
Re: Re: Re:5 addendum
His articles are usually full of references to external stories. You haven’t provided a single link in your entire trolling career.
So, no.
Re: Re: Re:6 addendum
yes, and many of the external stories are someone elses unsupported opinions. i just cut to the chase. in this case, it is something i have experience in, having met some of the players personally. i didnt realize that we couldnt discuss personal experience here.
Re: Re: Re:7 addendum
You need a personality in order to discuss anything personal.
Re: Re: Re: addendum
Well, that’s not what I heard:
– from Pirate Bay: big revenue claims fabricated by prosecutors
Obviously, they’re not the most objective source. Then again, neither are you.
You know, I doubt many people use the “pay direct download” options. If people want to pay, they’ll buy on iTunes, Amazon, or some other official site. Most people don’t want to be “pirates” if they don’t have to.
As far as the “fake pay download links:” those sites would technically be guilty of internet fraud, which (unlike infringement) is actually criminal. Bad? Yes, but when you’re making Prohibition-style laws, you shouldn’t be surprised when some actual criminals crash the party. Most of these sites would go away if sites like the Pirate Bay were left alone.
Ad rates don’t tell you anything about profits. For one thing, you have to figure in operating expenses (and despite your assertion, “pirate” sites have to buy bandwidth and server space). For another thing, that ad money doesn’t go directly to the site, it goes first and foremost to the advertising media companies that broker the deals.
Banner ads (&etc) barely cover server costs, even for big-media commercial sites. Why would torrent sites be any different?
Here’s an idea: If those sites are really able to make a mint off of file sharing, then why don’t the labels open one themselves? It would help boost profits, and whatever revenue they generate would (theoretically) go to the artists themselves, rather than the “pirates.”
Why don’t they do this? Because they know that running a torrent site doesn’t make money. They just want to say it does so that they can pretend they’re fighting Bond villains.
If you’re an antipiracy organization, all of this gets billed to your clients. That’s why the RIAA lost millions on their lawsuits. All the money went to people like MediaDefender or BayTSP.
Re: Re: addendum
Money saved, is money earned.
Horseshit.
Re: Re: Re: addendum
“People who don’t have computers don’t make any money from file sharing.”
Money saved is money earned. How dare they!
Re: Re: Re: addendum
[citation needed]
Re: Re: Re:2 addendum
There is ample evidence available to anyone with an internet connection that there is a lot of revenue to be had in p2p piracy. The people behind Mininova admitted to making €1 million in 2007 alone.
The guy behind Oink had 200k stashed in his paypal account.
The Pirate Bay is owned by a front company called “Reservella LTD” which is located (at least on paper as it doesn’t actually have an office or employees) in the Seychelles Islands. The Seychelles Islands are a well known hub for international, off-shore tax evasion. During the trial, the little Swedish ogres claimed that Reservella owned The Pirate Bay since 2006 but couldn’t produce even a single piece of documentation showing the transaction. If there was no money in running the Pirate Bay they would not have gone through all this trouble to set up paper companies in tax havens, nor would they have taken such extreme pains to cover their tracks. The complete lack of transparency is very telling for a company that purports to be “non-profit”.
http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/article/269720/police_arrest_bittorrent_tracker_operators_brisbane/
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/03/torrent-search-engine-mininova-earning-1-million-a-year.ars
http://rixstep.com/1/20060708,00.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/5220406.stm
http://torrentfreak.com/the-pirate-bay-sponsored-by-wall-mart/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2010/jan/15/filesharing-oink
Re: Re: Re:3 addendum
So much money! Why don’t the labels get in on all this money? Doesn’t make any sense?
I remain unconvinced by this “just like a library” argument: at a library you have to wait weeks for your turn to borrow a popular recently-released hardcover; impatience leads a lot people to buy it themselves instead of waiting for it in the library. With piracy you can download the book immediately.
Yes, at the moment, offering free ebook versions can really help with publicity and lead to greater sales, but the more people doing so, the less effective it will become, and the more people who own kindles/nooks/etc., the less likely many people will be to buy the physical book when they can download a free ebook.
Yes, I’m sure advertising, merchandising, licensing will work for some authors, but I just can’t see it being as effective as for music/tv/etc.
Re: Re:
“Yes, at the moment, offering free ebook versions can really help with publicity and lead to greater sales, but the more people doing so, the less effective it will become, and the more people who own kindles/nooks/etc., the less likely many people will be to buy the physical book when they can download a free ebook.
Yes, I’m sure advertising, merchandising, licensing will work for some authors, but I just can’t see it being as effective as for music/tv/etc.”
That may or may not be true – but, supposing that it is true – what, precisely, are you going to do about it?
The answer is given in the original article – worrying about something you can’t change is only going to damage your mental, and ultimately physical, health.
Take a positive attitude, engage with the people who will give you money voluntarily, and take pleasure (yes take pleasure) from having given away your stuff to the “pirates”. Regard it as a charitable donation and reap the positives from it.
Re: Re: Re:
“Roll over and try to enjoy it”.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“Roll over and try to enjoy it”.
As opposed to:
“Become bitter and unpleasant and worry yourself to an early grave.”
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“Roll over and try to enjoy it”.
You make mock it – but this advice has a solid pedigree:
” 27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. “
and
“38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. “
From Luke’s Gospel ch 6.
Very Well Said
I have to agree with you that “sharing” of files is something authors (or other professionals) can avoid. Anyone who purchased a copy of a book can freely distributed a copy and can get away with it because not all countries have a tight online law regarding this issue. The best is look closely at the situation and study how to change this problem into an opportunity.
Re: Very Well Said
In my Business 101 class, the very first lesson we learned was how to do a SWOT analysis, and from that, how to turn threats (in this case, file sharing) into opportunities.
It’s the most basic business lesson out there.
Since now people can write DNA I will wait to see how people will get copyrighted and patented and if they are born with some patented code what that person should do LoL
It is happening right now.
I fully support anyone choosing whatever business model they feel works for them, as long as they are taking all the risks. It seems Mr. Konrath is self-publishing his new eBooks but amazon says that Hyperion is making the dead-tree versions. Perhaps they are as blasé about piracy as he is. If so, good for both of them.
The market exists in this weird intermediate state. As he points out, it is difficult to understand the consequences of piracy. But we still live in a world where people are supposed to pay for things – even digital things. Do people buy because of guilt? Because they think they might get caught? Because they’re buying gifts and you can’t well give someone a burned CD or photocopied book without looking like a cheapass? Who knows?
Assuming his conjecture that piracy is helping him personally is true, what does that tell us about policy? Should we make piracy legal? Should we stop going after pirates? The answer is that knowing the answers to either of these questions is at least as hard as understanding the impact of piracy in general, and so we can draw no conclusions in this regard.
What surprises me often here is that there doesn’t seem to be an outcry for ending piracy. Isn’t piracy hurting the free-based business models and holding them back? Why deal with Linux’s idiosyncrasies and rough edges when I can get the polished Windows at the same price? How much would Gimp use go up if people actually had to buy Photoshop?
On a final note, Konrath’s proclamations that no amount of legislation, enforcement, or DRM will prevent human nature from making piracy the eventual victor are not wholly true. In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large businesses don’t pirate software because the risk is suitably high. PS3 games are largely immune from piracy because the developers ate apparently more clever than pirates. Blizzard has a license to print money from WoW because they build implicit DRM into their system by bundling it with the multiplayer feature. For simpler media like books and music it may be a lost cause.
I wonder what else exists in human nature that is curbed by laws and punishments. Murder? Theft of physical objects? Fraud?
Re: Re:
“Why deal with Linux’s idiosyncrasies and rough edges when I can get the polished Windows at the same price?”
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Re: Re:
I make my living off fixing the rust underneath Microsoft products. It may look shiny, but underneath it’s still crap.
Re: Re: Re:
Isn’t the market infallible around here? The market has spoken and Windows has been the winner for a long time.
Complain all you want about ivory tower technical issues, people use Windows by choice. Complain about lock-in all you want but everybody is free to develop on both platforms and many developers of top-class apps choose Windows (and Mac) only.
What surprises me is that you aren’t a strong advocate for the end of Windows piracy. If Windows piracy ended, everyone would be forced to pay the full-boat asking price for it and its apps. Wouldn’t this hasten the demise of your least-favorite OS?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Microsoft is very good at making Windows appear to be free to end users – whilst locking its business partners into unfair deals. This is not “the market” at work at all but rather the monopoly supplier utilising FUD and contractual engineering to prolong the effect of historic market wins (the most recent of which was Windows 3.0/3.1 c1991) which have little relevance to current products.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
So what you’re saying is that Microsoft has the superior business model.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
As someone who uses Windows XP and will never upgrade, uhm, no.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
So what you’re saying is that Microsoft has the superior business model.
Yes – just like the Mafia. (I mean the real one – not the Mafiaa)
Re: Re:
What surprises me often here is that there doesn’t seem to be an outcry for ending piracy. Isn’t piracy hurting the free-based business models and holding them back?
What hurts the free business models is Microsoft’s “lock in” of the hardware suppliers and large businesses – combined with their tendency to give away their software to those who can’t/won’t pay (eg students, academics) – ie most (apparently) free distribution of Ms s/w is from Microsoft themselves.
In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large businesses don’t pirate software because the risk is suitably high.
In that particular case the conditions in which copyright was established still apply. Large businesses are just too visible (like printing presses and record plants used to be) and they cannot afford not to be visible because then they would be unable to make money themselves.
PS3 games are largely immune from piracy because the developers ate apparently more clever than pirates.
Not really – it’s because they run on a closed platform.
Plus, for any games that also run on PC, the PC version is easier to pirate – removing the motivation to attack the PS3 version.
The real question here is whether closed platforms can survive long term – rather than whether they will be cracked.
Blizzard has a license to print money from WoW because they build implicit DRM into their system by bundling it with the multiplayer feature.
Blizzard is selling their access to their servers. The servers are not infinite goods so the economics are different. Even if the server could somehow be replaced by a distributed P2P style system there would still be added value for players from Blizzard’s “policing”/”refereeing” function within the gameworld.
I wonder what else exists in human nature that is curbed by laws and punishments. Murder? Theft of physical objects? Fraud?
These are not curbed by laws and punishments. For most of the population it is curbed by their instinctive sense of what is fair. Laws and punishments exist (ostensibly) to curb the small minority that lack, or ignore this sense of fairness, although they are not very effective at doing it.
In reality they exist to reassure the law abiding majority.
Re: Re: Re:
These are not curbed by laws and punishments. For most of the population it is curbed by their instinctive sense of what is fair. Laws and punishments exist (ostensibly) to curb the small minority that lack, or ignore this sense of fairness, although they are not very effective at doing it.
Anthropology will tell you that this is only wishful thinking on your part. In some isolated cultures it is still the norm that, upon meeting a stranger, the first thing to do is try to find a common familial or ingroup bond with them. The reason they do this is because without such a bond, there is no excuse to stop them from trying to kill each other. Which, if they can’t find one, they do.
It seems that “human nature” and universal notions of “fairness” aren’t, really.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
In some isolated cultures it is still the norm that, upon meeting a stranger, the first thing to do is try to find a common familial or ingroup bond with them. The reason they do this is because without such a bond, there is no excuse to stop them from trying to kill each other. Which, if they can’t find one, they do.
and that is the reason why such cultures are no longer dominant on this planet and only exist in small, isolated groups.
I don’t really want to get into the debate about why most of us have this inbuilt sense of fairness – because that is another whole can of worms, however whatever causes this, it is not down to rules, police forces and punishments. If it were then societies like Sparta (which held that, for example, stealing was Ok – provided you didn’t get caught) would still be around.
One explanation – that some will like – is that societies that that rely mostly on police forces and punishments are eliminated by natural selection. They are less efficient than those or those that contain individuals who have an internal sense of fairness. It may be natural selection operating with individuals or with societies (via the upbringing of their children) but it is not via police forces and punishments – that is too inefficient.
Re: Re: Re:
Do you honestly believe that it’s “fair” to make perfect copies of commercial products that may have required hundreds of people and millions of dollars to make?
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Don’t forget to destroy your VCR, DVR, answering machine, video camera, camera, cellphone, voicemail, email, computer, fax machine, and printer.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Stop fucking copying! It’s wrong and illegal! I can’t wait until the internet is filled with copy-free zones.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Copy-free-zones like the public domain?
Oh yeah I waiting for that too to happen.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Stop fucking producing! It’s wrong and illegal! I can’t wait until the internet is filled with copy-free zones.
There fixed for ya.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
I can’t wait until the internet is filled with copy-free zones.
Amazingly the technology for this already exists!
http://www.national.com/rap/files/datasheet.pdf
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Have fun with your blank webpages. Because the caching mechanism in your browser, which your browser does automagically, is also making a copy of the webpage you are viewing.
In fact, by viewing this comment you in breach of my copyright, but it’s okay, I give you permission to read my comments.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you honestly think it’s fair to stop other people from producing their own goods using their own materials?
You do not deserve a monopoly just because the business model you want to use does not work in a free market system.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
“Producing their own goods” my ass. Pirates RE-PRODUCE other people’s goods.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Re producing IS producing silly.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“Do you honestly believe that it’s “fair” to make perfect copies of commercial products that may have required hundreds of people and millions of dollars to make? “
Do you think it is fair to demand a legal regime that allows you to have your cake and eat it?
The copyright industries are constantly demanding new unfair laws and have bullied the politicians into giving them.
Do you think that retrospective term extension is fair?
The problem is that we are in a new situation where our instinctive ideas of what is fair don’t give a clear result.
I think the only way we will reconcile the technology with our fairness instincts is for the creators to be more laid back about copying. If not – as the articles says “it’s a waste of a good ulcer”.
Re: Re:
“Why deal with Linux’s idiosyncrasies and rough edges when I can get the polished Windows at the same price? “
– Because they are not the same ?
“How much would Gimp use go up if people actually had to buy Photoshop?”
– Again, not the same.
“Large businesses don’t pirate software because the risk is suitably high.”
– Honor among theives ?
“PS3 games are largely immune from piracy because the developers ate apparently more clever than pirates.”
– That is not apparent at all.
“I wonder what else exists in human nature that is curbed by laws and punishments. Murder? Theft of physical objects? Fraud?”
– Again … not the same.
Comparing apples to oranges is not fruitful.
Re: Re: Re:
Thanks for this content-free post!
Re: Re: Re: Re:
“Thanks for this content-free post!”
That content was free as in beer and you’re welcome.
Re: Re:
Problem: how do you force people into paying for something they can get for free and is readily available?
The problem with copyright laws is enforcement. You can’t enforce your copyright effectively, mostly because it goes against human nature.
Humans like to share. It’s in our genes. It’s what’s been keeping us alive since we were caveman. It’s what drives the internet. You give me something and I give you something back (or at least, I feel a little more inclined to do so in the future).
Think about it: I “pirate” a copy of photoshop. You may argue that I’m a bad person because I technically made a copy of something I had no right to, but that is ignoring the possible contribution I can make with that application.
I could use it to create art for a website, a game or a movie, thus giving something back to the world. I can also realize how much of a crappy closed software photoshop is and donate some of my time to help on the GIMP project.
And movies? I pirate a movie, but I can make a funny mashup of that movie and post it on youtube. I could also make a video review of the movie.
What about games? I can dedicate some time to make mods or other content that generates more attention for the game.
As you can see, “piracy” is not such a bad thing because it is an expression of something humans have been doing for a long time. People like to give back something to those that helped them along the way. The digital era has only made that a lot easier.
Now, the only possible way this can hurt your business is if you are an idiot and cannot take advantage of:
– Increased publicity
– Increased community size/loyalty
– Contributions made by the community
– Others?
But the bottom line is, “piracy” is here. You can’t stop it. You must adjust, or else you business dies. It’s that simple.
Re: Re: Re:
Humans like to share. It’s in our genes. It’s what’s been keeping us alive since we were caveman. It’s what drives the internet. You give me something and I give you something back (or at least, I feel a little more inclined to do so in the future).
Human nature is to support the ingroup while fucking the outgroup. The reason that “CwF” exists is to encourage the creation of illusory ingroup bonds between creators and fans. When people believe that creators are in the outgroup (big, faceless companies or untouchable famous rockstars) they feel little compunction about fucking them over.
By “connecting with fans” (I.e. trying to convince them that you have something in common) you can use ingroup tactics like explicit and implicit shaming and uniting against other outgroups to get them to pay up.
It would be interesting to see how strong the correlation is between increased feelings of ingroup relationships and rates of piracy. Do book authors pirate books as much as non-authors? Do professional authors pirate books less than that? Do professional creators in one medium pirate less of other media? (That is, do professional authors pirate less music?)
Perhaps my innate disappointment about piracy is borne of this: I make some of my living as a content creator, and I don’t have strong outgroup biases against large organizations (as many here seem to).
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your in-group and out-group notion is actually something I agree with. The problem is that by trying to enforce non-commercial infringement by attacking individuals, content creators automatically put themselves in the out-group. That’s because paying customers usually realize that they have more in common with the infringers than the company, so the company is attacking their in-group.
That goes both ways, of course. Major labels have been convincing artists for years that people who share files are part of the musicians’ out-group – like bootleggers, or companies that use music in ads without permission. In fact, they’re fans who like music. The degree to which artists dislike file sharing, is a pretty good indicator of whether that artist considers their fans or their label part of their in-group.
That’s also the whole idea behind the branding of infringement as “theft.” It attempts to put people who share content into a criminal out-group.
I don’t know about authors. But I can tell you that musicians “pirate” more music than anyone else on Earth.
Re: Re:
First of all the point he’s making is that not every exchange of a book (for example — resale which is perfectly legal) resulted in an author being paid. In fact, he says he kinda likes being paid.
As for whether or not he self published ebooks and Hyperion does the dead tree versions Konrath is careful to point out the market and the experience is different.
We don’t know the consequences of what is called piracy simply because the market hasn’t experienced it long enough yet to know what will happen and not for any moral reason. Your question regarding “piracy is general” is so open as to be unanswerable as it now draws in the high seas piracy going on off the coast of places like Somalia where the moral and economic consequences are immediate and clear to all. File sharing is hardly on the same plane as that no matter how hard you try to put it there.
Konrath points out, in fact that that it’s the natural tendency of humans to share something that’s new to them with friends and neighbours and to say that his experience is that most of the stuff floating around of his are extracts not entire books.
That piracy holds back free-based models is ludicrous as the models you go on to cite while free do have an expectation of giving back in them in the form of code or bug reports and so on.
“Why deal with Linux’s idiosyncrasies and rough edges when I can get the polished Windows at the same price? ” After Vista you can accuse Windows of having polish with a straight face? Linux is considered idiosyncratic only because it’s not Windows and doesn’t work the same way or have the same vulnerabilities for which most servers on the Internet and Web are enormously grateful and is an order more powerful than Windows for which the owners of render farms are similarly grateful to give but two examples.
Also, rough edges are a feature of all operating systems due to their size and complexity. The major difference is in patch policies for Windows and the Linux kernel. Windows waits till they can send out a package of them while the Linux kernel says “get it out the door NOW”.
“How much would Gimp use go up if people actually had to buy Photoshop?” As in the world of touch up and photo art the two programs are mentioned in the same breath with increasing frequency I suggest you back off a bit because it’s obvious that you don’t know that market beyond the weekend warrior class of users.
The reality is the piracy is a side issue for FOSS software with some accusing FOSS of encouraging piracy (silly statement) or of infringement itself.
DRM is a pointless exercise as any coder would tell you. The time lapse between a new DRM attempt and a useful crack appearing is a matter of a few hours and no more. And if you honestly believe that large businesses are free of “pirated” software from top to bottom I have a couple of lovely bridges I’d love to sell you at a cut rate price.
Your final paragraph is nothing but a weak and lame attempt to compare what Konrath as we are discussing with serious crimes which are not analogous to the discussion.
Re: Konrath's proclamations that no amount of legislation, enforcement, or DRM will prevent human nature from making piracy the eventual victor are not wholly true. In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large businesses d
US Lawmakers Target The Pirate Bay, Other Sites
A group of U.S. lawmakers targets The Pirate Bay and other sites as notorious for copyright infringement.
by Grant Gross
Wednesday, May 19, 2010 01:30 PM PDT
The Congressional International Anti-Piracy Caucus, a group of U.S. lawmakers concerned with copyright infringement, has listed The Pirate Bay and five other Web sites as “notorious” file-sharing sites.
In addition to The Pirate Bay of Sweden, the caucus put isoHunt of Canada, Mp3fiesta of Ukraine, Rapidshare of Germany and RMX4U.com of Luxembourg on its Web site list. Also included was large Chinese search engine Baidu.
The sites “provide access to countless unauthorized copies of copyrighted works made by U.S. creators,” the caucus said in a press release Wednesday. “Some of these sites are among the most heavily visited Web sites worldwide.”
This is the first year that the caucus, formed in 2003, has released a list of notorious sites. The caucus has been releasing an annual watch list of countries it considers weak on copyright protection since 2003.
The countries named Wednesday were China, Canada, Russia, Spain and Mexico, the same countries that made the caucus’ list in 2009.
***”Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people — ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections,” Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and caucus member, said in a statement. “Those very ideas are increasingly at risk from piracy and counterfeiting abroad.”****
Copyright infringement is not a victimless crime, as it is often portrayed, added Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican.
“Piracy denies individuals who have invested in the creation and production of these goods a return on their investment thus reducing the incentive to invest in innovative products and new creative works,” he said in a statement. ******”The end result is the loss of billions of dollars in revenue for the U.S. each year and even greater losses to the U.S. economy in terms of reduced job growth and exports.”*******
IsoHunt, a BitTorrent and peer-to-peer search engine, was sued by the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) in 2006, and earlier this year, a California court has proposed an injunction that would require the site to filter keyword searches.
“There are many non-infringing uses for BitTorrent technology and we hope you will be able to continue to use isoHunt for these,” the site says in a post on its front page.
The Pirate Bay, often called TPB, has long resisted takedown notices sent by copyright holders. When the U.K. record label Gr8pop referenced the U.S. Digital Millennium Copyright Act while asking The Pirate Bay to remove the music of one of its artists, a representative of the site said it follows Swedish law.
“DMCA is an American law,” the site’s representative wrote to Gr8pop in 2008. “Sweden is not a part of the United States. TPB has no connection to United States and hence does not follow U.S. law.”
In April 2009, four operators of The Pirate Bay were found guilty in Swedish court of assisting copyright infringement. That case is on appeal, and the site continues operating.
The MPAA and the Recording Industry Association of America praised the congressional caucus.
“The release of this report casts a damning spotlight once again on several nations with lax copyright protections and websites that brazenly traffic in copyright theft,” Mitch Bainwol, the RIAA’s chairman and CEO, said in a statement. “I’m particularly struck by the … decision to identify significant global Web sites that facilitate massive theft; theft that destroys jobs and cuts short the dreams of creators who find it more difficult to attract the capital they need to build their careers.”
http://www.pcworld.com/printable/article/id,196692/printable.html
CoPYRIGHT 1998-2010, PCWorld Communications, Inc.
=========================================
Re: Re:
How large would Photoshop’s market presence be, were it not for the ease of pirating of the software? The pirating of the software actually helped it gain the marketshare.
Will people be afraid to go to doctors if their DNA infringes on someones copyrighted DNA? can people be sued for having infringing DNA?
DNA patents and copyrighted are just around the corner will it be a crime to be born with infringing DNA code?
libraries in UK
i am not sure if the same occur’s alse where but here in the UK as well as borrowing books you can also borrow movies & music!
you used to be able to access video tapes & audio cassette’s but these day’s you can borrow Blue ray disc’s, DVD’s, cd’s of music & audio books.
so i guess each time someone borrows one of those items that is yet another lost sale.
FFS when will they leave the public alone and just face the facts that their biz model is NOT working in anyway!
Re: libraries in UK
I don’t know about DVD’s or Blu-ray, but you’ve been able to borrow CD’s and audio books for at least twenty years. The library has to be pretty big, though.
Books *used* to have ads in them.
At least, some of those cheap “ALEENS VISITED TEH ERF!” books in the 70s had color ads for Columbia House in them, bound directly in the book.
Didn’t seem to hurt sales of those any.
It is a sunny. That’s why I want a TechDirt Hoodie
Mike please bring them back on sale
conflict of interest
“Piracy is big business for groups that make money studying and combating piracy. Fair, unbiased reports are hard to come by, especially when capitalism and politics are involved.”
There are many businesses which have to deal with conflict of interest, some are more open about it and go out of their way to demonstrate their proper ethics – others not so much.
It becomes difficult to properly address an issue when the bottom line is directly affected.
On the contrary, it’s quite possible to pirate WoW and play it on a private server without paying Blizzard a dime. Most people prefer to play on Blizzard’s servers though.
I imagine much the same will happen with Starcraft 2: it will be possible to play a pirated version (even multiplayer on private servers) but most people will want to play multiplayer with their friends who have legitimate copies, and thus will be forced to buy the game themselves.
Re: Re:
When you play on a private server, some game content that is managed by the server (boss AI in particular) is not available and so has to be rewritten, often poorly.
Additionally, Blizzard will come after any private server that is too professional. So, through a combination of laws and a form of implicit DRM (denying players the full capability of the game) they keep tons of people paying $15 a month. You think if they released the server source code tomorrow and told people that they were free to run it that this wouldn’t destroy their userbase? Only Blizzard is capable of running a professional WoW server? And it can’t be done for less than $15 per person per month? Puh-leez.
Re: Re: Re:
Just sounds like they have a good business model to me. I don’t consider an MMO as a form of DRM, you know what you are getting into when you buy it.
Sure you can play it 100% free if you wanted, but the best experience (hence a reason to buy it) comes from Blizzard. Seems to be working for them, no?
Re: Re:
“it’s quite possible to pirate WoW and play it on a private server without paying Blizzard a dime”
It is also possible to download the game client legally, and free directly from Blizzard and play it on a free server.
I wonder what would be this book author’s reaction if his 220/day sales of ebooks (current and future) dried up because a third party decided to provide digital copies at a “too good to pass up” price?
He appears to be satisfied with 220/day, but would he still be satisfied if his sales went down to essentially 0/day? Or, would he still create because of his artistic bent while asking the question “Do you want cheese on your burger?”
Re: Re:
Don’t be confused: he claims thatthe fact that his books are available for free from third parties gets him those 220 sales/day. He might be right, or not. But what’s interesting is that while he is not too bothered by piracy, he would be bothered if someone were selling his books. That, he claims, is business and therefore not cool. An interesting dichotomy.
Re: Re: Re:
Yes, it is an interesting, but all too common, dichotomy exhibited by many in the “what’s the big deal” camp.
Re: Re: Re: Re:
You mean, like Congress? The laws regarding non-commercial and commercial infringement are different. In fact, non-commercial infringement wasn’t unlawful until 1997.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Those pesky facts again … soon they will be outlawed.
Re: Re:
I wonder what would be this book author’s reaction if his 220/day sales of ebooks (current and future) dried up because a third party decided to provide digital copies at a “too good to pass up” price?
Read the link – he is offering free downloads himself!
Re: Re: Re:
Read the link – he is offering free downloads himself!
Suggest you read the link. Even with free downloads he is still receiving about 220 paid downloads per day.
My question is what would be his reaction if those 220 decreased to 0?
Also note from his comments section he has no problem with downloads as long as they are not being used for business purposes. I guess what he is saying is distribution of his ebooks are okay as long as someone is not making any money from doing so. It looks as if he is of the mindset that only he should make any money. This is a dichotomy he does not explain.
Why focus on trying to punish people you don’t like, when you have so many opportunities to happily engage with people you do like?
In some cases they are the very same people. Some people have done something that content creators don’t like (downloading a movie, a book, a tv-series, a song), and yet became the very people that content creators like (raving about something to their friends, who then bought the content, or bought it themselves, or went to concerts/writers tours/cinemas)…
So trying to sue those people actually hurts those people that the content creators would like.
People want options
FREE(Default view) – You will see Ads.
No Ads – Pay flat fee or subscription for material.
It is a proven business model that works on many websites that offers web based intangible down-loadable material (ie:Reviews, video, demos, books, music, etc.)
File-sharing increases sales
I can’t speak for anyone else but Baen provides free e-books and I discovered several authors by this route. If file-sharing is so bad, has it dawned on any of these worthies that once they sell a print copy, it can be read and resold multiple times without the author or the publisher seeing another nickel. I can’t do this with e-books.
Artist reawards in money
I belive artists should have a better and more important roll in society. This professionals can save lives and helps everyone to think about life and how it´s supose to be lived.
Therefore it is important that they have a earnig acording to the each life stile one represent.
Regards,
Re: Artist reawards in money
I belive artists should have a better and more important roll in society. This professionals can save lives
Last time I looked the professionals who save lives were surgeons – and they seem to be quite happy to work for a one off fee.
Deal with it
This is what I see:
Because money not as much a given, people will write less.
We’ll be stuck reading the same novels of the 20th century over and over again. Alas, they will be free.
When people write less, there may be fewer fully expressed ideas- EXCEPT for the ideas that people feel truly need to be shared.
More passion? we shall all see, won’t we.
Matthew Orley in Akron, OH
Re: Deal with it
I think the claim that “this new product/service/idea means people will stop writing/making films/anything” has been well debunked.
There are more books today then ever before. More films, more media of all types.
There is also (probably) more (possibly) infringing use and noncommercial sharing then ever before.
What is wrong with a group of people who think they deserve special treatment and can’t see nothing wrong with raising prices every year making it to expensive to get entertained, medical supplies or really anything?
They say you can’t do it on your own and you have to buy from them only are those people nuts?
200 years of protection is not enough?
Millions in fines are not enough?
Invasive measures already in place are not enough they want more invasive ones?
I lost respect for those people, for me they are liars and thieves and I see nothing wrong in filesharing, I used to think it was wrong now I don’t anymore. I’m angry and frustrated and I don’t think I’m alone.
Billions in revenue are not enough?
Just making a living is not good enough for those people?
Normal people are lucky to get one stream revenue, those clowns get 10 different ways to make money and are still complaining about how they are going to make a living.
Attention Lapdogs who commented at #62 and #45
“TAM’s awesome evidence: “Because I said so!””
“You haven’t provided a single ling in your entire… career”
There seems to be an ongoing issue around people willing to take up the role of Mike’s sycophantic lapdog. Eventually, the novelty will wear off when you realize creating controversy only results in stymeing all development and conversational progression.
Put simply: if you don’t have any idea on how to respond to this “TAM” character you keep referencing, may I invite you to refrain posting a oneliner in spite. Give others an opportunity, or before posting a one-liner, do us a favor and further educate yourself on the subject at hand.
Indeed, many people may not understand this simple idea, but I remain quite convinced that 99% of oneliners are the product of those who don’t want to educate themselves. Instead, they say continue blabbering on how so-and-so is wrong.
Now, your own worldview may be fun for a while, but eventually you need to look at yourself in the mirror and then consider getting yourself a damned haircut, you hippie.
Re: Attention Lapdogs who commented at #62 and #45
Actually they already answered.
The guy said something that has no base in facts and only his word so why should people listen?
They don’t they call it out to what it is a pile of crap.
Maybe you should take your own advice and refrain from posting. Since your lost on your nonsense talk trying to smooth out the sleezy taticts from that one idiot babling about how much he knows without showing proof of anything.
Re: Re: Attention Lapdogs who commented at #62 and #45
Reset. It’s called a conversational reset.
Maybe you should take your own advice and refrain from posting.
Huh? Do you work for Mike’s http://www.duhcorp.com ?
Since your lost on your nonsense talk trying to smooth out the sleezy taticts from that one idiot babling about how much he knows without showing proof of anything.
You know, you should really get that spellchecker installed. When you call someone out for babbling, at least get the spelling right. Were you schooled back east, by chance, where perhaps using one “b” is customary?
Re: Attention Lapdogs who commented at #62 and #45
What?
ya know Richard your an ass no really
if i have 30000 novels
how many can one read in a life time. SO am i not then just becoming a library? For use by others?
Protector of knowledge and culture?
@richard do you honestly believe that insane long copyright terms benefit the disabled and poor? DO you honestly believe that suing children is the key to your future?
Do you think insane copyright lengths aid the economy by having millions or billions create useful stuff off your work?
Do you think with 95 years plus life of an author in usa is benefiting your country or harming it? When 5 people own all the rights in the US who pays? Society and it was society thats granting you this right and its society telling you now THAT PROHIBITION ON CULTURE AND KNOWLEDGE WILL NOT AND IS NOT A VIABLE BUSINESS like it used to be.
What does copyright do for me the citizen? When you ask that question the answer is always NOTHING. ZERO . NATTA. So i ask all the lawyers and all the kings men to tell me how your going to put humpty dumpty back together again when he should be buried and allow the kids freedom.
Re: ya know Richard your an ass no really
@nameless one
What on Earth are you talking about? My point was the exact opposite of what you seem to think it was.
For the record: I agree with all of your post above – apart from the bit that claims I don’t!
Re: Re: ya know Richard your an ass no really
nameless one is a strawman set up to make the anti copyright/reform groups look bad.
Or it seems that way at least.
Re: Re: Re: ya know Richard your an ass no really
Don’t know about that – but he certainly totally misunderstood my post – not sure if he did it deliberately.
and we quote catholic religion why
cause 1300 years of dark ages were not enough under such repression we need more
questions for religion
would jesus approve suing kids for music? TV? Movies?
games?
would he wish imprisonment?
Life in prison?
Would he wish bribery of state officials to carry all that out to be the norm?
Would Jesus approve the riaa message?
Re: questions for religion
would jesus approve suing kids for music? TV? Movies?
games?
would he wish imprisonment?
Life in prison?
Would he wish bribery of state officials to carry all that out to be the norm?
Would Jesus approve the riaa message?
for the record
My answer to all these questions is of course No!
HEY lets copyright the bible so no poor people can read it
then we can quote it any way we want cause they cant see it….YA i know what copyright is really about
CONTROL
Re: .YA i know what copyright is really about CONTROL
.”YA i know what copyright is really about
CONTROL.”
Exactly RIGHT is is about
Artist Control 100%.
Art is the Artists Babies.
( Mingus said , his songs are his children.)
No Pirate , is messing with my babies, EVER ,,w/o me going after them, Luckily the Gov’t is on my side .
Re: Re: .YA i know what copyright is really about CONTROL
Children grow up and leave home after a few years. Then they are free to do as they will.
We all pity the children of over controlling parents.
and the cities of Sodom n Gamora ......
“38Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. “
– is this bible pron you aint coming near my bosom….lol
ya see anyone can twist meaning form words that are 2000-3000 years old
if you’d like ill start using the bible to justify taking the laywers and riaa and mpaa out and murdered in the name of purificating
For the sins of their inhabitants Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim were destroyed by “brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.”[Gen 19:24-25] Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for vice and homosexual deviation.
ALL Previlent in Hollywood ……
THINK of the children and placing all manner of improper nudity all about tv shows and movies. YOU could go right bible thumper and the riaa and mpaa are in the eyes of GOD and all EVIL and most WICKED
Re: and the cities of Sodom n Gamora ......
if you’d like ill start using the bible to justify taking the laywers and riaa and mpaa out and murdered in the name of purificating
Probably going a bit far – but look at what happened to the moneychangers in the temple…
using Luke as you do
In Luke 17:28-30 Jesus describes the situation at His return and uses Sodom as an example of indifference; careless living (RSV):
“Likewise as it was in the days of Lot—they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed.”
Sounds like a day in hte life of capitalism to me….
So its evil and will lead to your destruction
DAMN capitalism is evil man WOW its in da bible, do anything like listed there and your evil and will burn
Last time I looked the professionals who save lives were surgeons – and they seem to be quite happy to work for a one off fee.
Perhaps because their one off fees are artificially high due to the AMA’s own protectionist racket.
Sorry, pressed submit instead of preview.
That last post should have read:
“Last time I looked the professionals who save lives were surgeons – and they seem to be quite happy to work for a one off fee.”
Perhaps because their one off fees are artificially high due to the AMA’s own protectionist racket.
I’m a pirate because I check out books and dvd’s from my local library. I make companies lose monies. 🙁
MIKE :
“Again, the whole thing is a worthwhile read, but highlights a key point that we keep trying to make over and over again. So many keep focusing in on the whole “piracy!” aspect, and that’s such a huge waste of time. Why focus on trying to stop something you don’t like, when you can put your energy into creating a positive situation that you do like? Why focus on trying to punish people you don’t like, when you have so many opportunities to happily engage with people you do like? “
—-
MIKE :”Why focus on trying to stop something you don’t
like,?”
ANS : MORAL PRINCIPLE… Mike . Pretty simple. Of you do not see that , well,, then Mike ,, you really are lost on this issue of Copyrights.
—-
MIKE : ” when you can put your energy into creating a positive situation that you do like?”
ANS: The positive situation that I do like want , and will work for , and fight for ,
, and yes,, even die for:
is a world w/o Piracy.
==========================================
Re: Re:
Copyright infringement is not a moral issue.
Re: Re:
MIKE : ” when you can put your energy into creating a positive situation that you do like?”
ANS: The positive situation that I do like want , and will work for , and fight for ,
, and yes,, even die for:
is a world w/o Piracy.
I suggest that you give up this hopeless quest before it consumes the rest of your life.
Seriously, you are doing immense harm to yourself here. For your own sake, give it up.
Re: Re: Re:
No Mike & Techdirt & co,,, should give up their quest to weaken or abolish copyright.
I am defending an establish right.
Life is about defending rights from those who wish to destroy them
I think Jefferson , Thomas Paine , and their gang of rebels against King George would agree .
———
The Rev Martin Luther King once said,” if a man has not found anything worth dying for, he is not fit to live.”
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think Jefferson , Thomas Paine , and their gang of rebels against King George would agree .
[irony]
Jefferson, Paine and the rest were a bunch of freeloaders. The British had spent an enormous amount of money clearing out the other European colonies from the borders of the what was to become the US. Without the British military effort North America would have been like South America, a bunch of disparate states speaking different languages, economically underdeveloped and politically unstable.
It was only fair that the colonists should pay for their share of the military costs. You do believe in paying for things don’t you? The declaration of independence was effectively an act of piracy.[/irony]
Seriously – believing in a cause is one thing – but it has to be a good cause and not one that is too intimately connected with your own personal gain.
When I look at those have fought for IP rights I don’t see souls at peace. I see tortured, embittered souls.
The problem is that IP encourages the moral weakness of “attachment” which is understood by most major religions.
From my own moral point of view ( a Christian one) any creative talent you may have is not your own, it is from God. The gift was given to the whole of humanity, you are only the channel. To quote St Matthew (10 :8) “Freely you have received, freely give.”
In his book “The Great Divorce” C S Lewis talks of enjoying the works of others and your own works equally, without false modesty and without prode. He even suggests that it would be a good thing if authors, painters musicians etc were to forget which works were their own so that this could happen more perfectly.
Re: Re: Re:2 Re:
Hi Mr. Phd. in physics.
Still waiting for your proof there.
Where did you get your Phd ?
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/05/ff_pink_shirky/all/1
Shirky: Well, organizations that are founded to solve problems end up committed to the preservation of the problems. So Trentway-Wagar, an Ontario-based bus company, sues PickupPal, an online ride-sharing service, because T-W isn’t committed to solving transportation problems. It’s committed to solving transportation problems with buses. In the media world, Britannica is now committed to making reference works that can’t easily be referred to, and the music industry is now distributing music that can’t easily be shared because new ways of distributing music undermine the old business model.
Re: Re: Re:3 Re:
Where did you get your Phd ?
Imperial College University of London 1980, Supervisor R.J.Rivers, external examiner Mike Green (Then at Queen Mary College London)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Green_%28physicist%29
The title would have been a catchall, something like “Aspects of Quantum Field Theory” or some such – but I left the document with my parents many years ago – I have already given you links to a couple of the papers on which the thesis was based. I listed the keywords (and you seemed to think they were wrong somehow – but they aren’t).
Now, what grade did you get in your course – and who was your teacher?
Re: Re: Re:4 The title would have been a catchall, something like "Aspects of Quantum Field Theory" or some such - but I left the document with my parents many years ago -
still unverifiable info.
I can write that Einstein tested me in the womb !!
YOUR Faculty, web page ? with Your name?
Again , any Phd.,, knows the EXACT title of their thesis ,, everyday forever,, your never forget that !!!
AND Again ,, I will take an email w/ 3 references and their email.
I studied Astronomy @ SUNY at OSWEGO 1976-80 ,, but never finished my degree there. Astronomy is my main hobby since childhood. I read much on it
My other academic info , posted on my blog , w/ link to , in my profile here.
Re: Re: Re:5 The title would have been a catchall, something like "Aspects of Quantum Field Theory" or some such - but I left the document with my parents many years ago -
OK – I won’t give the current pages – because of changes of policy the Biographical info isn’t there any more – however I guess you trust the wayback machine for an older version that has the details you were looking for:
btw the contact info is now out of date – however you could find it if you really wanted to (actually that was already true – but for some reason you didn’t bother)
http://web.archive.org/web/20010426014739/www.doc.ntu.ac.uk/people/rcc.htm
Re: Re: Re:5 The title would have been a catchall, something like "Aspects of Quantum Field Theory" or some such - but I left the document with my parents many years ago -
SUNY is a good school.
You should read this:
http://www.syr.edu/news/articles/2010/jpmorgan-chase-ceo-jamie-dimon-03-10.html
Re: ANS : MORAL PRINCIPLE... Mike . Pretty simple. Of you do not see that , well,, then Mike ,, you really are lost on this issue of Copyrights.
Mike ,, you there ? I am honestly curious to you reply.
I am not “baiting you” or doing a “rope-a-dope” here.
I really want to know what you think on this point.
Debates with out resolution ,, is like a song that never ends ,,
Or to quote Robin Williams : Sex w/o orgasm ?!?!?
What is the point?
Re: Re: ANS : MORAL PRINCIPLE... Mike . Pretty simple. Of you do not see that , well,, then Mike ,, you really are lost on this issue of Copyrights.
I will wait Mike. I know you got just got back form a long weekend w/o techdirt.
i hope you enjoyed
Re: Re: Debates with out resolution ,, is like a song that never ends ,,
BTW ,, a debate resolved is when all see exactly where and why they disagree.
It does not mean they all agree
Konrath's proclamations that no amount of legislation, enforcement, or DRM will prevent human nature from making piracy the eventual victor are not wholly true. In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large businesses d
Yeah right! that is why Sweden has seen their piracy levels disapear, South Korea is not a haven for piracy anymore and China doesn’t have piracy either, Japan doesn’t have it and the U.S. is not the number 1 in the world in number of piracy numbers despite being the only place in the world that sued thousands and failed LoL
Re: Konrath's proclamations that no amount of legislation, enforcement, or DRM will prevent human nature from making piracy the eventual victor are not wholly true. In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large businesses d
“Yeah right! that is why Sweden has seen their piracy levels disapear, South Korea is not a haven for piracy anymore and China doesn’t have piracy either, Japan doesn’t have it and the U.S. is not the number 1 in the world in number of piracy numbers despite being the only place in the world that sued thousands and failed LoL”
Supposition w/o facts . It is “Pirate Logic ” .
( Wasn’t that a “Steely Dan” album? 🙂 )
Re: Re: Konrath's proclamations that no amount of legislation, enforcement, or DRM will prevent human nature from making piracy the eventual victor are not wholly true. In many domains, piracy can be largely curbed through all these things. Large business
Oh well I guess the iPed is also supposition.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q599sQ41_cI
What other country in the world made a public campaign suing its customers?
Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
Re: Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
From a poster above : .”YA i know what copyright is really about
CONTROL.”
ANS :
Exactly RIGHT is is about
Artist Control 100%.
Art is the Artist’s Babies.
( Mingus said , his songs are his children.)
No Pirate , is messing with my babies, EVER ,,w/o me going after them, Luckily the Gov’t is on my side .
Re: Re: Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
Even you can’t keep your nose clean, you keep infriging on others rights according to your own view so you should be in jail by now 🙂
You are a compulsory copyright infringer creature and don’t even realize it.
I hope the law get ridiculous you will the first to go down.
Re: Re: Re: Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
“You are a compulsory copyright infringer creature and don’t even realize it.”
How am I a a compulsory copyright infringer creature?
Please explain.
Re: Re: Re:2 Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
– Did you ask the owner of the rights for the Beatles song to distribute those?
No you have infringed.
– Did you ask the writers of those articles you are posting here verbatim for permission?
No, you have infringed.
– Do you ask permission to lend books to others?
– Did you stoped recording TV yet?
– Have you asked permission to quote others?
No you did infringe on their rights then.
You are unable to keep yourself clean and is telling others to do that is funny.
Re: Re: Re:3 Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
More “Pirate Logic”.
Please take a civil liberties class. Turn those ans. in on the final.
Re: Re: Re: Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
Anonymous Coward
Re: Copyright infringement is a moral issue.
Imposition of copyright is also a moral issue.
If you believe that copyright is an immoral law then breaking it is one of those grey areas. Although I personally choose not to I know that some take a different view.
I prefer to concentrate on the damage that copyright does to those who believe in it. It seems to share some of the characteristics of gambling addiction, with an added twist of anger which cannot be good for you.
“No Pirate , is messing with my babies, EVER ,,w/o me going after them, Luckily the Gov’t is on my side .”
The first one to go down will be you LoL
I love that you keep saying absurd things about copyright and you keep breaking those rules you want others to fallow LOL
Re: "Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people -- ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections," Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican
“Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people — ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections,” Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican.
—————-
Copyright infringement is not a victimless crime, as it is often portrayed, added Representative Bob Goodlatte, a Virginia Republican.
“Piracy denies individuals who have invested in the creation and production of these goods a return on their investment thus reducing the incentive to invest in innovative products and new creative works,” he said in a statement. “The end result is the loss of billions of dollars in revenue for the U.S. each year and even greater losses to the U.S. economy in terms of reduced job growth and exports.”
both quotes from :
US Lawmakers Target The Pirate Bay, Other Sites
Grant Gross, IDG News
May 19, 2010 4:30 pm
http://www.pcworld.com/article/196692/us_lawmakers_target_the_pirate_bay_other_sites.html
Re: Re: "Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people -- ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections," Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: just because the business models of the riaa/mpaa fail in a free market system does not entitle them to exceptions to it.
Re: Re: Re: I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because the business models of the riaa/mpaa fail in a free market system does not entitle them to exceptions to it.
See you in Congress.
See you in the Courts.
See who wins,
you Anonymous Coward you .
Re: Re: Re:2 I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because the business models of the riaa/mpaa fail in a free market system does not entitle them to exceptions to it.
Congress and Courts will do you no good.
See you in a decade or two LoL
Re: Re: Re:2 I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because the business models of the riaa/mpaa fail in a free market system does not entitle them to exceptions to it.
With a response like that I wouldn’t be surprised if you weren’t nameless one’s alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I’ve always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads.
Re: Re: Re:3 With a response like that I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't nameless one's alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I've always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads
I do not play games.
All my posts are with this user name.
My words are my power.
I stand with them in pride,
Re: Re: Re:4 With a response like that I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't nameless one's alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I've always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads
You’ve got some pretty sh-tty power then!
Copyright is a moral issue is it? Who’s morals are we playing by? Yours? Pirates? How can you tell anyone what is moral and what isn’t?
Explain please, coherently.
Re: Re: Re:5 With a response like that I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't nameless one's alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I've always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads
READ. Take a political theory class on Rights and privileges.
Or maybe review you high school “social studies” notes.
Re: Re: Re:6 With a response like that I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't nameless one's alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I've always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads
I did read: The Constitution, where there are inalienable rights, and then the privilege later misnamed copy “right.”
Re: Re: Re:7 With a response like that I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't nameless one's alt or something. Or maybe angry dude is his alt. I've always suspected he is just trolling these comment threads
again , take a civil liberties course , try that on the final exam
Re: Re: "Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people -- ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections," Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican
Where is the citation here?
not you, i mean the citation from the Representative and senators?
Simply handing a sheet of “talking points” to a rep’ or senator who has been receiving “donations”(payment) does not magically turn the statements into facts.
This is not even getting into the always-ignored follow-on effects, since those imaginary billions of dollars did not disappear into some magical ether the moment something was infringed on.
shame on PCworld for printing that statement without a single bit of examination. They seem dedicated to sinking to AP levels of “reporting”
Re: Re: Re: "Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people -- ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections," Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican
“Where is the citation here?
not you, i mean the citation from the Representative and senators?”
ANS : Senator Hatch , is no one’s dummy. One of the few Pols, who I can say that for . And though I (usually) strongly disagree w/ him on most issues, I know he is an honorable and fair person & Senator.
The Word in the quote are his. The principle expressed in his words , are clearly not new,, they are taught in every social studies and/or Pol-sci class , from the 3rd grade up.
http://hatch.senate.gov/
============
Re: Re: Re:2 "Our nation and our economy is what it is today, because of the ingenuity and ideas of our people -- ideas that have been safeguarded through strong intellectual property rights protections," Senator Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican
Heh
Hatch = sockpuppet
next ?
20 years latter:
Why those people don’t stop pirating? why? why?!
Popcorn growers of America
Piracy is bad because it deprives the popcorn growers of income. Please, think of the popcorn growers.
This principle has been tried, and it works.
Check out the Baen Free Library sometime. Even if you don’t want to read the books, read the letters explaining the free library. In short, making books available for free generates sales. Why that is, can be argued til the cows come home, but the fact is it works.
What the hell is going on?
Only 69 new posts instead of the normal 75-80 last week. What the hell happened?
Re: 362 Comments
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100514/0126329423.shtml#c4820
Can Someone Explain Why Circumvention For Non-Infringing Purposes Is Illegal?
to know nicely it is so a greeting
but under that same situation about supposingly stealing books does that mean libraries are stealing them too to go to a library borrow the original book for free too read does that mean libraries are breaking the law too what about all the borrowers that read the book they got from the library for free what about the authors money from that i think its a government thing they cant control file sharing so they attack it movies are the same do the movie companies get money when a movie rental shop hires it out another topic thats grey
i want to give hollywooders here a heart attack
so im going ot let yo in on a lil secret the new copyright bill in Canada WILL NOT HAPPEN wait till you see the amendments that are gonna start flying right till summer break then were gonna have a fall election.
GIVE UP go away get mad angry beat your wife dog cat , hten murder a filesharer in your country….JUST PISS OFF dont bring your shit here
Re: i want to give hollywooders here a heart attack
That’ll change.
@124 i has picture of you
get whacked upside the head with my baseball bat and you landing in mud with your 5000$ suit.
YUP we in Canada aren’t gonna end up signing it nor will we have a new copyright bill
nd you can hump your dog cat or whatever farm animals you do in califonia …..
@109
no this is me but when yu really REALLY REALLY HATE CAPS
I HAVE TO WONDER
are you data mining and it messes up the format for your overlords?
ARE YOU GAY
EAT LOTS OF PIG SHIT
YES TO ANY OF THE ABOVE and YOU FAIL HAHA
you will never have canada
waves to
THE UNITED LAWYER HOLLYWOOD STATES
@ 50
no
you already suck the shit out of too much of the economy
go eat shit
@58
so you support 5 year copyright then….
@Richard
and so what if i do not have any money and download avatar right now
has 4 billion it made is that enough for the poor starving actors and directors?
POOOOOR lil wankers
Re: @Richard
Sorry – you misunderstood my comment – the bit at the top was a quote from someone else. I’m on your side.
I get a stiffy when I think about suing innocent people because my life is a real bore.
@Richard Sorry dude
at least some of us can apologize should w be wrong dam is we going for a record long thread.
HOPE this clears up who the hell i really am for ya and where do i stand
goto cbc.ca/news
look in technology for cons want support on copyright
and fuck you hollywood
@BigKeithO
and copyright is not a moral issue as you say.
ITS a right society gives one FOR A LIMITED time not 95 years plus life of an author or 50 years
so some ass can make one hit wonder and sit around for ever laughing and carrying on while people slave away
LAZY thats what its about and too many fucking lawyers wanting to create complex and new laws to keep suing lil kids.
and when everyone is encrypted how you gonna catch the pedophiles and terrorists
YA think of the children and legalize p2p
So canada is now “a rogue state”* i see so when did we join the axis of evil when i downloaded abba last week ROFL
and guess what
BOLDED CAPS FOR YOU
*cbc.ca/news/technology/ cons look for love in all da wrong places er look for copyright support
Re: @BigKeithO
you make rd look like a brain surgeon.
Copywrong will die, is not a question of if but when 🙂
Copywrong will die, is not a question of if, but when 🙂
Die! Die! Copywrong.
So long and thanks for all the fish LoL
You want to take and anti-piracy instance please show them how it is done, say to them you won’t release any more music until all piracy stops and see how far you go LoL
Pirate "business model"
The major problem with the so called business model of allowing file sharing or copying in breach of existing copyright laws is this.
This a business model thats sucess depends on the success of the legal, commercial and productive model that allready exists.
It cannot exist without it, as there would be no content to copy.
The reverse is not true, legit, and the actual creators of the songs, movies, books, and software. DO not need to rely on the illegal copying ‘model’ to work.
Also so this guy gives away “free samples” so what, that is a very very common business practice.
Im sure he would not be so happy if he found out that someone was taking his free sample and selling them. Or making money off his work, by getting people viewing adds on the criminals web site?
The idea that someone creates something you want, and that you can get illegally for free, does not mean it’s legal, right, ethical, moral, or right to “just take it because you want it”.
That is why there is so much effort in making patent and copyright laws STRONGER, and the introduction of the likes of DRM, encryption, closed networks, holograms and certifed copies, and registration. All these things have been developed to meet a simple need, that is to enforce the existing laws.
Exactly the same reason there are locks, and guards at banks, it’s not for the honest people, it’s for the crims, it’s just the honest people who have to pay for it. Not the crims.
Re: Pirate "business model"
The major problem with the so called business model of allowing file sharing or copying in breach of existing copyright laws is this.
This a business model thats sucess depends on the success of the legal, commercial and productive model that allready exists.
I suggest that you read the article (and several previous articles on this site).
When we talk about the business model of allowing file sharing we are NOT talking about allowing sharing of content created under other business assumptions, we are talking about content created within the free business model.
If I release a piece of content of my own and allow it to be shared I’m not relying on other’s content at all. The whole point is that it IS possible to make money without imposing “all rights reserved” copyright and without infringing other people’s copyrights either. Thar is what the article is about. Your comment is based on a false premise.
On the other hand most copyrighted content relies on content in the public domain, much of which was created long before copyright existed . (eg Disney’s use of traditional stories and all the books/films based on the Bible/Shakespeare/King Arthur/Greek Myths/Robin Hood etc etc etc)
So in fact both of your points are exactly the wrong way around.
BTW the iPed costs $96 the iPad costs $700 and both are probably done in the same sweetshops.
“It cannot exist without it, as there would be no content to copy.”
That is a lie. Cavemen produce art well before any commercial use.
“The reverse is not true, legit, and the actual creators of the songs, movies, books, and software. DO not need to rely on the illegal copying ‘model’ to work.”
People don’t need artists to tell them stories or to sing to them, see youtube to see how many people do covers or re-enact stories. Is just that when people try to do it on their own they are called criminals, shame on artists.
“The idea that someone creates something you want, and that you can get illegally for free, does not mean it’s legal, right, ethical, moral, or right to “just take it because you want it”.”
I don’t see the problem, it is not being reproduced by the author so it cost nothing to him/her, probably serves as advertisement to ancillary merch and other deals and products so I say that there is no problem and people should not feel guilty about it, because is like feeling guilty about listening to radio or watching TV, WTF feels guilty about that?
Re: Re:
Watching TV or listenint to the radio is the antithesis of free simply because rights holders have agreed that these mediums of communication are proper and the rights holders have received renumeration. The sale of books to a librar is consistent with the law becasuse the book, or CD or DVD, etc. have been purchased in a financial transaction between the rights holder and the purchasing library.
While one may be able to avail themselves of these “copies”, it is noteworthy that these copies are legitimate and made with the permission and limitations associated with the sale of the “goods” for their intended purpose.
There is no such arrangment when one copies and distributes to the world no less using either P2P of sights such as rapidshar. I read all the self-serving tripe that all people want to do is “share”. In the historical context of “sharing it has generally been limited to one’s close circle of friends and family members. This “sharing” is quite small in number and has never really been on the radar screen if most copyright holders because its impact on the rights holers financial bottom line is miniscule to the point of having virtually no effect on rights holders bottom line. “Sharing” with a group far, far greater in number via P2P is a far diferent matter. Seriously, it an uploader/downloader in Asia really a member of the small circle of friends that is explicity recognixed by our copyright law? I think not.
It is immoral to take video from the TV?
It is immoral to take music from the radio?
Why is the internet any different?
Why is that there are multi-billion dollar companies making money off of the internet and other bipedal hominids cannot fallow?
There are people that are just to dumb to make money and that is the real problem.
Moral Rights Basics." // http://ogc.caltech.edu/moral_rights.htm
Moral Rights
http://ogc.caltech.edu/moral_rights.htm
“The moral rights of a work does not refer to the ethics of the author(s). Rather, this bundle of rights derives from the French term droit moral and refers to the right of the author to exercise control over his/her work. Whereas copyright may be transferred and lasts beyond the life of the author, moral rights resides with the author until the author’s death.
In the US, moral rights vest only in visual arts and can be found at 17 U.S.C. §106A (also known as the Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990). Sculptures and paintings are common examples of objects in which moral rights would attach.
Moral rights give an author the ability to protect his or her work from alteration, degradation or distortion, regardless of the owner of the particular work. The Visual Artists Rights Act also allows the artist to control how a work is associated or perceived to prevent distortion of the work and possibly tarnish the artist’s reputation.
For more information about moral rights, see Moral Rights Basics.”
http://ogc.caltech.edu/moral_rights.htm
Re: Moral Rights Basics." // http://ogc.caltech.edu/moral_rights.htm
Dude, please stop the infringement. It iss not cool. And yes, Universities have been trying to enforce their “copyrights”.
And you might want to get used to the fact that getting all huffy and parochial about copyright law is not going to help your personal situation no matter how f’ed up the law gets. Look within, Dude. Look within.
Re: Re: Dude. Look within.///Moral Rights Basics." // http://ogc.caltech.edu/moral_rights.htm
As i mentioned elsewhere,, I am an ( nearly ordained , still gotta do those formal tests ) Orthodox Rabbi.
i teach people how to look within, w/ my Religion and my Art.
The Konrath Effect
I’ve been watching Joe’s blog for a while, and this blog entry (Steal This Book) might be the smartest move he’s ever made.
Publishers might be pissed off, but Konrath is smarter than any of them. New York is a hotel, sitting on beachfront property, ignoring the ebook tsunami. It’s coming, and they will be destroyed.
Konrath just got a surfboard, and he’s going to ride the wave all the way to shore.
You have to admit that he has a point. it’s interesting to take note of his words and see how eBook piracy progress to either being beneficial or hurtful to the industry.
Piracy seems to benefit some artists.
If it weren’t for piracy, I would have never discovered half the artists I did, and wouldn’t have supported them by going to concerts.
When people believe that creators are in the outgroup (big, faceless companies or untouchable famous rockstars) they feel little compunction about fucking them over.
Say to them you won’t release any more music until all piracy stops and see how far you go LoL