Steve Jobs Tells Startup Startup To Change Names, Saying 'It's No Big Deal'

from the to-you-perhaps... dept

Reader mick alerts us to the story of a small eight-person startup that makes a popular app for backing up your iPod music, which had been called "iPodRip" until Steve Jobs and Apple's lawyers got involved, demanding the company cease using the name and hand over its domain. It's even told the guy that even if he rebrands his app, he can't even say that it's the app "formerly known as" iPodRip. While lawyers told him he could successfully fight Apple on this, the guy gave in and is in the process of changing the name to iRip. Someone involved with the company actually sent Steve Jobs an email about the whole situation, and got the response:
"Change your apps name. Not that big of a deal."
Pleasant. Of course, at this point it seems worth pointing out that years long battle Jobs fought with the Beatles' Apple Corp. over the "Apple" name. Would Jobs have been okay if John, Paul, Ringo and George had simply told him "Change your company name. Not that big of a deal"? Now, yes, it is true that a company needs to enforce its trademark, lest it become generic, but in this case it certainly seems like the name was descriptive in a way that certainly didn't imply endorsement from Apple. But, of course, when you've got lawyers who can bully on your behalf, the details apparently aren't that important.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
    identicon
    RadialSkid, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 7:19pm

    As if anyone would think iPodRip is an Apple product.

    Oh, I'm sorry, did I just use the words "Apple" and "iPod" in this post? WILL I GET A CEASE AND DESIST LETTER FOR THAT?

    Copyright bullies on one side, trademark bullies on the other, and the rest of us are caught in between.

     

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  2.  
    identicon
    Derek, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 7:38pm

    iPod trademark?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  3.  
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    Derek, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 7:40pm

    iPod trademark?

    "...it is true that a company needs to enforce its trademark, lest it become generic..."

    I think it's too late to keep "iPod" from becoming a generic term.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  4.  
    identicon
    Ser, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 7:49pm

    Apple iRip

    If anything, iRip sounds a lot more like an Apple product/endorsement than iPodRip

     

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  5.  
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    ChurchHatesTucker (profile), Nov 25th, 2009 @ 8:22pm

    Re:

    "Copyright bullies on one side, trademark bullies on the other, and the rest of us are caught in between."

    And here I am, caught in the middle with you.

    (Wait, who's that knocking on the door now?)

     

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  6.  
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    iOWN, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 8:35pm

    Steve

    still find it interesting that someone can own a combination of letters. and honestly if it's "not that big of a deal," they why is the name change necessary? me confused.

     

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  7.  
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    adam wexler, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 9:18pm

    nice to hear steve wrote them back, but pretty funny to see his response. there's surely more to a great business than it's name, but it's definitely important

     

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  8.  
    identicon
    Monte Erickson, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 10:28pm

    iPood

    My baby has one of those cute "iPood" logo shirts. I hope he doesn't receive any cease and desist letters, because he will probably salivate all over the letter before trying to eat it. And when he does, its not that big of a deal...

     

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  9.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 10:45pm

    Megalomaniac

    Steve Jobs and G Bush suffer from this condition and should listen to the song to figure out why they act they way they do. F#*kem both!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  10.  
    icon
    ChadBroChill (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 12:50am

    Re: Megalomaniac

    Good Incubus plug, stupid comment.

     

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  11.  
    icon
    Hardik Upadhyay (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 12:56am

    Way To Go Jobs.. But - NO WAY OUT

    First of all, jobs is asking to change the name of startups and then later when the company becomes threat to Apple, they will assault back and file a lawsuit against them.

    This is nice strategy Mr. Steve Jobs.

     

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  12.  
    identicon
    Steveorevo, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 1:00am

    Sorry but I have to agree with Apple on this one. When has it ever been ok to name your product with the beginning of a trademark name? Never. Microsoft has always pointed out it's never 'Windows MyApp'. It's always MyApp for Windows.

    They have a right to protect their trade mark name. Apple User Guide is wonrg less you are Apple.

    Yes Steve Jobs is a douche. Apple is a symbol of asshole Attitude and they have a right to protect that. This is elementary and all I can say is duh. The owners of 'iPod Rip' should have seen this coming.

     

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  13.  
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    Spanky, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 2:01am

    re

    Y'know, I'm currently in the market for a new computer. I've heard a lot of raves about Apple, for a long time.

    But in doing the research, I've come to see how bad Apple's business practices are. I don't think I'll be buying anything from Apple, now or in the future. Some companies just don't get it.

     

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  14.  
    identicon
    Vincent Clement, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 3:48am

    Re:

    When has it ever been ok to name your product with the beginning of a trademark name?

    Really? Explain all the various magazines that a trademark in the name of their magazine?

     

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  15.  
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    MM, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 4:41am

    They should just change it to "iPodRipoff", it might not be descriptive of the app, but it is of the product.

     

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  16.  
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    bob, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 5:53am

    I don't buy apple crap

    If woz were still around I might.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  17.  
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    Tyanna, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:09am

    Re: iPod trademark?

    second that.

     

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  18.  
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    Alan, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:18am

    Google Ads...

    I like how the two google ads at the bottom (for me anyways) are "iPod Rip Software" and "iRip - Transfer Songs".

    Neither of which are apple products.

     

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  19.  
    identicon
    John A., Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:29am

    Steve Jobs isn't Cool

    Wow, I've heard about how Steve Jobs snubs fans just wanting to say 'Hi' or asking for an autograph, but he really is stuck up. Too bad Steve isn't as cool as his products.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  20.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:36am

    Jobs and his company need to disappear

     

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  21.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:44am

    Re: re

    Good... They seem to be doing fine with out you... Some people like to feel smug with their electronics choice... Others, like you, like to feel smug by stating they are doing things for some grand reason that has no affect on anything other than feeling like you are rebelling against "the Man".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  22.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:45am

    Re: I don't buy apple crap

    again... Who cares?

    They seem to be doing quite well with out you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  23.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:45am

    Re: I don't buy apple crap

    again... Who cares?

    They seem to be doing quite well with out you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  24.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:45am

    Re: I don't buy apple crap

    again... Who cares?

    They seem to be doing quite well with out you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  25.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:46am

    Re: I don't buy apple crap

    good, dont buy anything... They seem to be fine with out you.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  26.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:47am

    Re: Steve Jobs isn't Cool

    yes... too bad. Too bad people still by windows with the a$$holes in charge of that company too.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  27.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 6:49am

    Re:

    Good luck with that. Let me know how your railing against the "man" works out. Sales figures seem to indicate you are in a minority.

    Plus your comment is just as stupid as steve jobs about changing the product/company name.

     

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  28.  
    identicon
    Tom, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 7:09am

    The name "iPhone" was a big deal

    The name iPhone was a big enough deal to both Apple and Cisco for them to start a court battle over who got to use it. Cisco had inherited the name when it acquired a company that had an early, if unpopular, VoIP phone called the iPhone. Apple ultimately won the right to trademark the name when it was found that Cisco did not maintain the proper registration papers for the trademark.

    Ironically, Mark Chandler, Cisco’s SVP and General Counsel, commenting on Apple’s infringement of Cisco’s iPhone trademark, said "If the tables were turned, do you think Apple would allow someone to blatantly infringe on their rights? How would Apple react if someone launched a product called iPod but claimed it was ok to use the name because it used a different video format?"

     

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  29.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 8:45am

    Re: Re: I don't buy apple crap

    Nice quadruple post.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  30.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 8:46am

    Re: Re:

    Ha Ha yous funny. Not

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  31.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 8:47am

    Re:

    I am definitely sure iRip is the motto of Apple.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  32.  
    identicon
    Gordon, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 8:47am

    Hey anonymous tool,

    Actually if you DID look at the global sales figures, you would have seen that MS has the majority of sales.

    I have no preference for either, just saying.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  33.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 9:14am

    Re: re

    Yeah, exactly. I'm in the same boat. But I'm also a little discouraged about Windows 7. I think I am going to buy a used computer from eBay. I can't find any compelling reason to buy a new computer at all.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  34.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 9:18am

    Re: Steve Jobs isn't Cool

    To contrast, Microsoft needs a few folks from Frito Lay and a decade. Okay, maybe just two or three years.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  35.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 9:30am

    Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    I'm going to start a compelling scraper blog to TechDirt.

    I'll add functionality not available here, and call it MikeDirt to honor the original.

    But, we'll have other things like story intakes from PR people which will help fund Free online Do-It-Yourself T-Shirt design & store. We'll also have "free" song of the week and on the 50th visit, visitors will be able to download a pirated, PDF version of Mike's book "Approaching Infinity" (Pop-up windows says "Psst, Wanna free book?")

    I just want to see how long it will take before Mike gets angry and posts another one of his 5 page walls of text about original content and scraper blogs, and calls it stupid and how MikeDirt may confuse people.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  36.  
    icon
    Chucklebutte (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 9:49am

    ?

    iRip sounds like it is an apple product not ipodrip. Thanks Mr. Jobs, I am now confused...

     

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  37.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 9:57am

    Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Do it then. Talk is so cheap, it's cheaper than free music and free movies. So do it already.

    I probably won't make any comments to your site but I'm sure some other shill for the arts might come along.

    Hurry up and do it. Stop teasing us with your brillant plans, and do it!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  38.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 10:19am

    Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    I'm going to start a compelling scraper blog to TechDirt.

    Cool. Let me know when it's up.

    I'll add functionality not available here, and call it MikeDirt to honor the original.

    That's nice of you.

    But, we'll have other things like story intakes from PR people which will help fund Free online Do-It-Yourself T-Shirt design & store. We'll also have "free" song of the week and on the 50th visit, visitors will be able to download a pirated, PDF version of Mike's book "Approaching Infinity" (Pop-up windows says "Psst, Wanna free book?")


    Cool, though I'd suggest that users might find the pop ups annoying. But you are most certainly free to offer up Approaching Infinity however you like it. We released it to the public domain under the WTF license. You are even free to try to sell it and make money if you want. We'd appreciate the help.


    I just want to see how long it will take before Mike gets angry and posts another one of his 5 page walls of text about original content and scraper blogs, and calls it stupid and how MikeDirt may confuse people.


    Oh. Hmm. No, why would we do that? We're all for you setting up your own sites to help promote our content. I've discussed that at length.

    There are a bunch of sites like that already and we've already discussed why it's fine.

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090116/0348223430.shtml

    Go for it. Just let us know when it's up.

    Thanks for helping to spread our content!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  39.  
    icon
    Kevin (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 10:31am

    Microsoft would have...

    Microsoft would have taken the guy's idea, released it as their own, and incorporated it into the OS so it couldn't be removed, making the original owner's product redundant and irrelevant, driving him out of business.

    Just ask Netscape.

     

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  40.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 11:48am

    Wonder if Apple is aware of Joboshare and its "iPod Rip" program?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  41.  
    icon
    Bob Bunderfeld (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 12:14pm

    Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    I'm just waiting for idiots like Anonymous Coward to get up the balls to identify himself/herself.

    No one cares what AC's think, say or spout. You waste your time and energy AC. I can't wait until the school break is over and the AC's go back to Second Grade.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  42.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 12:24pm

    Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Huh? Are you serious? It was applied irony, Mike.

    In fact, Apple Corps, the record label the Beatles are on, has requested Apple Computer change their name several times, so he's had to fight similar fights.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Corps_v._Apple_Computer

    So now it's payback time for Steve. Yee-Haw! iPodRipper is no big deal says pot to kettle.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  43.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 1:00pm

    Re: stop buying apple shit

    Fuck Apple!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  44.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 1:20pm

    Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  45.  
    identicon
    RadialSkid, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 3:14pm

    Apparently there are lots of Apple employees posting here anonymously.

    "Good! Don't buy Apple products! Apple doesn't NEED you!"

    Only two people would take that attitude: Apple employees or fanatical brand-fan mouth breaters, like the kind who argue over whether the PS3 or XBOX360 is better.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  46.  
    identicon
    Jimmyjam, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 4:27pm

    Re:

    and common sense is nowhere to be seen.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  47.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 5:00pm

    Can everyone please cease and desist with i i am in the process of patenting the novel process that people can own something and trademake the that i is the trademade of said process ....

    May I should just cease and desist myself ...

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    Igor Zevaka, Nov 26th, 2009 @ 5:00pm

    Whose business is it anyway?

    Is it too much to ask for big companies to concentrate on their core business? Apple should be making computers and other stuff Apple makes instead of running around suing people that want to use their products.

    Just because one has a legal muscle one does not have to exercise it excessively.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  49.  
    icon
    Chris in Utah (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 5:01pm

    Re:

    To coin a seldom used but very good jibe when applied to correctly and the
    "Good! Don't buy Apple products! Apple doesn't NEED you!"
    Person provided the fodder... I accept the things I can not change.

    Arguing over the internet is like winning in the special Olympics, even when you win your still retarded.

    Yeah. It was easy, cheep and didn't cost me a lot but to Bragi I give thanks for a poets tongue.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  50.  
    icon
    Chris in Utah (profile), Nov 26th, 2009 @ 7:34pm

    Re: Whose business is it anyway?

    Yeah... All it produces is Schwarzenegger like image of a dude ya don't wan't to piss off. Saying buy my economy! Till 30 years later ya realize that body builder's mind is meant for business of 17% unemployment and a real big picture on the future of us.

    Somebody said you want to reshape something. You tear it down first. Well guess what. The last time we printed this much debt we had to put the interest rate at 20% to pull all the funds back normal. Oh wait that's right we haven't produced this much debt EVER. It'll take interest rates at 40% to get back what we've printed. Let's see, India buying gold at record levels... I hear its nice this time of year.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  51.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 8:49am

    Re: Google Ads...

    iRip is the product this article is talking about. Way to pay attention.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 9:25am

    Isn't it obvious that everyone that starts a product with the letter "i" is cleary riding on apple's coat-tails? Go to the electronics department at wal-mart and look how many clocks or little piece of shit gadgets use this naming convention. Makes sense that apple would sue someone using their exact iProduct name.

     

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  53.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 10:54am

    I don't buy Apple products but I do agree with them in this case. Plus yes Jobs is an a$$ but Woz rocks.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 10:58am

    Re:

    dumb ass

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    rp01, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 7:42pm

    irip / ipodrip

    I doubt the problem is entirely name related.

    Apple would be more likely to find issue with the every day mum and dad consumer realising they can back up ipod music without re purchasing after every crash than they are in any possible confusion between names.

    Demanding the app be renamed or threatening legal action is not more than a basic bullying tactic used to deter 'little guys' from catching up to the biggun's .

    I'd suggest the app be called jobsisadickrip or something similar.

     

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  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 27th, 2009 @ 10:50pm

    Sure, whatever

    I don't have any sympathy for these guys. Obviously they feel they gained some mileage out of using the ipod name, otherwise they wouldn't care so much about the change.

     

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  57.  
    identicon
    Jeff, Nov 28th, 2009 @ 12:50am

    Should have asked for $$$

    I understand their not wanting to fight a deep pocket Apple, but they probably could have asked to have all of their re-branding fees covered by Apple.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    icon
    nasch (profile), Nov 28th, 2009 @ 1:51pm

    Re: Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Huh? Are you serious? It was applied irony, Mike.

    And Mike's comment is called "calling a bluff".

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 28th, 2009 @ 4:37pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Your mother must be proud of how smart you've become.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    icon
    Mike Masnick (profile), Nov 28th, 2009 @ 5:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Huh? Are you serious?

    Very.

    It was applied irony, Mike.

    Heh. You make me laugh.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
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    Overcast (profile), Nov 29th, 2009 @ 8:39am

    Don't have anything made by Apple - and with that attitude, I never will.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    Humberto Rincon, Nov 29th, 2009 @ 11:41am

    iRIP?

    I Rest In Peace? Is that what they are fighing for? To say that "I Rest In Peace? Dead man didn't talk. Am I wrong?

    Ok, now lets try "I Rip" Did it sounds like something visceral?

    Come on guys, I think you can put a better name on that. And Jobs is fighting to defend the 'Pod' thing?

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 29th, 2009 @ 12:39pm

    Grammar

    I think you're all missing a more important point here, namely the grammatical error in the reply:
    Change your apps name. Not that big of a deal.
    I mean, you'd expect this sort of thing from kids today, but from Steve Jobs himself? The overall tone (e.g. use of the imperative, the incomplete sentence) seems informal to the point of being seriously disrespectful (even ignoring the content).

    This is making me regret buying an iPod (though not as much as the crappy battery life and the attempts to charge silly amounts for insignificant software updates).

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  64.  
    identicon
    Kilgore Trout, Nov 29th, 2009 @ 7:02pm

    Re: Megalomaniac

    Hey cool... you managed to work a "Buck Fush" into a totally unrelated tech story. Good Job!!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  65.  
    identicon
    edgebilliards, Nov 29th, 2009 @ 8:20pm


    but in this case it certainly seems like the name was descriptive in a way that certainly didn't imply endorsement from Apple.


    WinBlow$ and "Woz Roolz and Jobs Droolz" rhetoric aside, use of a trademarked name does imply endorsement from the owner. if the owner of the trademark doesn't endorse the product, then it asks the infringer to stop using it. which is exactly what Apple is doing.


    Really? Explain all the various magazines that a trademark in the name of their magazine?


    The difference here is domain: Adobe's product line isn't affected by what's said in Advanced Photoshop. In all honesty, iPodRip could be poorly-coded and inferior to canon Apple software.

    iPodRip (and even moreso "iRip") don't come close to passing "moron in a hurry." Steveorevo had it right: programs are named "_________ for Windows" to avoid this kind of confusion. It's not a matter of pissing contests or legal "bullying;" it's a legitimate business concern.

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    AC, Nov 29th, 2009 @ 8:26pm

    Re: Grammar

    Not a big deal, but how about "Change your app's name" since the name belongs to the app.

    Just saying.

     

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  67.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 30th, 2009 @ 2:56pm

    Re: Re: re

    And don't forget the people who like to feel smug by pointing out that all other people fit into one of two categories: fanboys or rebels.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  68.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 30th, 2009 @ 3:08pm

    Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    Like Bob Bunderfeld is your real name!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  69.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 30th, 2009 @ 5:52pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Welcome To MikeDirt.com

    I'm sure you do.

    If you find what I write humorous, you'd also find a way to fund 4-5 patents under your WTF license so I can send them to you.

    Sad thing is I disclosed a few things to someone who is a former director of the god damned fucking company known as Oracle because he knocked off 1/2 off of the bar tab a few months ago.

    So I can get a provisional Patent, Mike, but it needs to be done right. I just want to make the ideas public domain. It's sad that I have to as you to do this for me.

    Glad I make you laugh.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  70.  
    identicon
    boost, Dec 1st, 2009 @ 7:53pm

    Re: Re: Megalomaniac

    Stupid song...stupid comment. There, fixed!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  71.  
    icon
    duncan (profile), Dec 3rd, 2009 @ 1:33pm

    Umm…iPodRip and The Little App Factory have been around for years. Since when is TLAF a "startup"?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  72.  
    identicon
    No Start Up Costs, Feb 16th, 2010 @ 3:26pm

    throwing weight around

    I don't see why this would impact Apple so much, but it is nice to see them throw their weight around!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  73.  
    identicon
    kashif, Mar 29th, 2010 @ 10:40am

    jops

    men new jopes karna cahta hon

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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