Group Behind 'To Catch A Predator' Claims Wikipedia Is A Corporate Sex Offender

from the might-be-a-bit-personal dept

We've seen all sorts of criticisms of Wikipedia over the years, but this might be a first. Apparently the group "Perverted Justice," the controversial online vigilante group that tries to lure online pedophiles out into the open (and is the group that is used by NBC Dateline's equally controversial "To Catch A Predator" show) is now claiming that Wikipedia is "a corporate sex offender." Apparently, if you follow the links from Wikipedia to Perverted Justice's site, it has a screed against Wikipedia -- claiming "each article on Wikipedia that deals with any issue relating to pedophiles or internet predators has been heavily targeted and edited by the online pedophile activist movement." Of course, there's a bit more to the story. Apparently, Perverted Justice's founder was recently barred from editing Wikipedia after people felt that he was flaming other users, deleting any negative reference to his organization, accusing others of being pedophiles without substantiation and when asked about it, replying "with invective." This suggests the anger at Wikipedia is a bit more about the guy being barred than any sort of official Wikipedia issue. If anything, it seems like yet another case where Wikipedia's neutral point of view has resulted in confusion. There's no doubt that Perverted Justice's reason for being is good -- but calling Wikipedia a sex offender seems quite extreme and unreasonable.


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  1.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 3:32am

    1) I've always had a bad gut feeling about the group that does the dirty work for To Catch A Predator.

    2) All anti groups eventually go batshit (eg, MADD) and destroy themselves.

    3) Pedophile activist movement? WTF?! lmao. I wasn't aware there was an activist moment. Good luck with that! Ha!

    4) Neutrality != endorsement. Switzerland.

     

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    PaulT, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 3:43am

    Idiots

    These guys seem mentally unhinged. There's some hilarious flame wars on certain news forums where people purporting to be members of PJ usually defend their views with "if you disagree with us, you're a pedophile", and use clearly inflated and falsified claims to back up their points of view (such as the claim that the log files cannot be falsified - any sys admin knows otherwise). Their founder seems to use similar tactics.

    I remain unconvinced that any of the To Catch A Predator tactics actually do anything to stop real pedophiles in the first place. As far as I'm concerned, they're a group of vigilantes, driven by self-righteousness and ratings. It's a group of dangerous idiots who should be shut down and resources directed to stopping real pedophiles (usually members of their victims own families or community, not random 'predators').

    Of course, if I stated these opinions on Wikipedia, I would have the comments altered or flamed as my free speech is somehow less important than theirs. We'll see how long it takes for me to get flamed or removed here.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 4:54am

    Re:

     

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    Ferin, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 4:56am

    They may have good intentions, but I think vigilante groups like this are treading dangeorus ground. PJ just strikes me as a group willing to go too far to get what they think is justice.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 4:57am

    "pedophile activist movement?"

    While I don't suggest that everyone go to boychat, there are threads and threads in that forum about "editing wiki".

    Rookiee Revolyob (which is boylover spelled backwards) was dismissed as a wiki editor because he obviously altered dozens of articles into a pro pedophile slant.

    Peej's creator, Xavier, may very well be angry about being banned, but his use of "invective" is universal and not singled out for Wiki.

    I really don't want to sound like a shill, but if one reads http://www.corporatesexoffenders.com/ you'll see that wiki is listed as a "passive" offender. Not even it's worst rating. That so far has been saved for Youtube and Livejournal.

     

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    PJ4ever, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 5:42am

    Outrage

    TechDirt is now on the 'list' too!

     

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    Troll, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 5:58am

    Doesn't suprise me

    in the least - P.J. Xaiver and his group have vehmetly harassed many people that stand up to or disagree with them and their tactics.

     

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    araemo, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 5:59am

    So, let me get this straight....

    Perverted McCarthyism(err, sorry, Perverted Justice) wants wikipedia to remove editors who PJ says are pedophiles, without any proof? Can that be right?

    Generally, in the US, there's this thing called "Due Process". There is something else called Slander.. And even if wikipedia isn't an employer, if someone w/ a reputation got banned from wikipedia for being a pedophile, when they weren't, they could sue wikipedia for slander(as well as PJ), since wikipedia's action supported PJ's claims..

    Or, if you want to look at this from wikipedia's standpoint.. Person A says Person B is a pedophile. Person B says they aren't. Why should you believe person A over person B? (Or vice versa?).

     

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    Scotticus, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 5:59am

    Oh Well

    I guess the kids won't be goin' over to stay at Uncle Wikipedia's house again this weekend.

    *sigh*

     

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    Ryan, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:05am

    reason for being?

    There IS doubt that their reason for being is good. All these guys care about is catching the bad guy, whether or not he's actually bad.

    Their leader was just arrested for solicitation in Georgia. It's a crime to do what they do... trying to convince people into committing crimes. It doesn't matter if there's a girl or not, it's still solicitation.

    I knew a guy caught by them.. what they don't show on TV is the 2 months of prior conversations where THEY initiated contact with him, and where they kept begging and prodding and always turning the conversation to sex whenever possible.

    All it takes is enough prodding and a weak individual. In effect, they brainwash their "predators"

    I'm not defending people who diddle little kids, I'm just saying there's a good chance none of their predators would have done so if they hadn't solicited it in the first place.

    How many little girls are there out there actively soliciting sex from older men anyway?

     

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    RandomThoughts, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:28am

    Ryan, their reason is good, maybe their tactics are bad. Personally I am waiting for the show that when the host walks in on the perv and starts to ask questions, the perv pulls out a .45 and drills him right in the head. I find it distastful that there are media types sitting around in meetings thinking "I hope we catch a priest or a cop that really has some sick plans."

    As for what PJ does, I can understand their anger and their need to take action. Our justice system does not do enough in this area, look at the catholic priest mess. Why did people blame the church for this? Why were they not asking the police to shut this down? Look at the illegal alien in Newark that was out on bail (and thats a whole different article) for child rape. Before his rape trial, he executed 3 people.

    I can understand their actions, and personally, if you are going to meet with a 12 year old for sex, you pretty much deserve anything you get, up to and including a bullet in the head.

     

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    Sean L, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:35am

    well...

    the reason I like wikipedia is that everyone gets to input their own "genius" to the topics, true or not. The point of wikipedia to me is that I can get a summary of information, then links to find where that information came from. If those links aren't there, then I really just take the wikipedia information as possible truth... but that's me....

    And extreme groups like these will always go on battles and people need to learn that deleting criticism is a good way of giving yourself a bad name. Especially on wikipedia.

     

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    Red Jack, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:39am

    The problem and the reason for these vigilante groups is that there's not enough teeth in the laws. While I see nothing wrong with drawings or stories with a pedophiliac theme, I do have a problem with pedophiles. Simply put I don't believe in thought police, but I do believe in real punishment for predators, death penalty for those having sex with children or producing materials showing it, physical castration for consumers of that product. Maybe there'd be a few less pedophiles ifn we threw a bit of chlorine in the gene pool as it were.

     

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    Wolfger, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:40am

    Re: reason for being?

    "There IS doubt that their reason for being is good."

    Ditto.

     

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    To Catch a Predator, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:41am

    Predator

    I can see it now...
    Wiki will arrive at the house and sit in the kitchen of a young boy/girl's house, eating milk and cookies...
    uh-oh...who that in the closet? Look it's NBC Perv-Hunter Chris Hansen.
    Wiki, you got some splainin' to do...

     

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    TheDock22, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:44am

    Re: So, let me get this straight....

    they could sue wikipedia for slander(as well as PJ), since wikipedia's action supported PJ's claims..

    Actually, they would have to sue for libel. Slander is when you say something defamatory about a person that ruins their reputation and libel is when you print it.

    But they wouldn't be able to sue Wikipedia anyway, they would have to sue the author.

     

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    Name, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:47am

    Someone needs to start doing the opposite of PJ...

    Pretend to be the pedophile and then go over to the kids house and tell their parents and educate the kid! I bet these kids that are willing to let strangers come to their house are pretty rare and that's why it's so easy for them to trick these pedophiles.

    It would make for a good show if the two groups clashed together.

     

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    Bryan Price, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:50am

    There's no doubt that Perverted Justice's reason for being is good


    Maybe at one time, but I really have to doubt the premise now.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:56am

    PaulT said "I remain unconvinced that any of the To Catch A Predator tactics actually do anything to stop real pedophiles in the first place."

    I actually saw part of an episode of this show recently and of the four(that I saw?) "predators" they caught, two of them said that they had watched the show or were "fans of the show". And, of course, they all said "I've never done anything like this before." So, I'd agree with you that this does nothing to stop anything. It's just there to raise panic.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 6:59am

    Re: reason for being?

    "Their leader was just arrested for solicitation in Georgia. It's a crime to do what they do... trying to convince people into committing crimes. It doesn't matter if there's a girl or not, it's still solicitation."

    I was just going to bring this up. I think the guy looks creepy like the child molester I had for an elementary school counselor(no, I wasn't one of his victims). The feds often investigate someone who seems to give a lot a tips involving a serial killer because they think it's very possibly a red herring; maybe that's the case with PJ.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 7:05am

    "3) Pedophile activist movement? WTF?! lmao. I wasn't aware there was an activist moment. Good luck with that! Ha!"

    Ever heard of NAMBLA?

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 7:15am

    Xavier wasn't arrested in Georgia. In fact, the judge there refused to swear out an arrest warrent for him. All the judge said was, he may be liable for enticement.

    To date; PJ has 220+ convictions. Not one viable law suit against them.

    Wiki Scan has reciently made news with their "tattling" on who's editing posts. PJ just did this on their topic. Wiki should be free from bias. But it's not when groups conspire to slant wiki information. Regardless if that group is Scientologists, Republicans or pedophiles.

    To the comment above that implied "there isn't any proof so and so is a pedophile"; Rookiee used the boylove logo on his wiki profile. He was proud about it. He had been told to remove it. When you combine this with his posts elsewhere encouraging wiki edits with pro pedo slant, there's plenty of proof.

     

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  23.  
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    Sanguine Dream, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 7:16am

    When good intentions turn bad...

    It's a noble thing to want to "protect the children" but seriously when you start thinking that you can circumvent the likes of Due Process and actually collecting evidence then you are becoming the evil you are trying to fight.

    Most people don't realize that Hitler did not start with the idea to destroy any race that was his own, he just wanted to create the perfect world. Even wants a perfect world but two problems (and I'm sure there are more) are, "What is the definition of a perfect world?" and "How do you build a perfect world?"

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 7:37am

    Courts collect testemony and evidence from laymen all the time. PJ didn't convict 220+ men, courts did.

    That is due process.

     

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    Thought Crime, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:03am

    Perverse Justice is an Oxymoron...

    The process of targeting Ephebophiles (which includes a large percentage of the population), and then classifying them as child rapists has become an insideous process in the last decade.

    I suspect that Perverted Justice is a group of Satanists who, through their program are trying to further unhinge the hearts from the minds of the populace. The irony is that these people are the same group that infiltrated the catholic church and created the child rape scandal there, so as a means to allow a bit of an 'Inquisition' of their own.

    This was an easy set of social expectations to turn on their head.

     

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  26.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:06am

    Is there a sub-set of men who would never, in their lives, have committed a crime? I don't know; I'm just asking. But if so, what these men were ultimately convicted of was -- chatting with Perverted Justice.

    According to one of the linked articles, last year there was also "a bizarre incident involving an Arkansas pilot — a married man (and non-pedophile) who still vehemently opposed the group. He’d threatened everything from online computer attacks to investigations from the IRS. The response? Erck says his group lured the married man into an online romance by pretending to be a sympathetic female and then continued the online relationship for several months, leading to the collection of thousands of lines of chat."

    Ultimately their antics outed the unfaithful husband to his wife, and the man's marriage was destroyed. Pretty harsh. I guess that's 220 convictions, and one marriage....

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:11am

    Re:

    Yes, I have, but I thought they died out during the 70s or 80s? I ain't Googlin' the answer. :P

    Being a straight, heterosexual male... I don't keep abreast of the happenings in the homosexual pedophile world. Sorry.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:13am

    Re:

    Boy... chat? Just typing that makes me feel sick. Thanks!

    YouTube and LiveJournal, eh? I guess the emo kids with psycho parents are SOL.

     

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    Big Frankie on the Wawa Pedal, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:14am

    Perverted Justice is Probably 50% pedohiles.

    Regarding that "perfect world" and the evil they are trying to fight ??? Who gets to decide which is the vision of the perfect world??? A pedophile might consider the perfect world to be loaded with little girls wanting sex and no sex laws ... and consider evil anyone who wants to stop that. WHO GETS TO DETERMINE WHAT THE DEFINITION OF THE PERFECT WORLD IS???

    Maybe if we had a coin toss and Al Qaida won, American social norms would be considered the evil around the world (come to think of it, American society IS considered evil around many parts of the world).

    Anyone persecuting anyone else outside the definitions of the local social norms laws become vigilantes ... just like Hitler's brownshirts.

    These "Perverted Justice" guys are part of the problem, not the solution. Are they protecting kids ... I would bet half of them ARE pedophiles just using the name as a guise to get their own kicks under the false pretense of doing good. The other half is just the brownshirts of 2007. That's why police groups don't use idiots like them.

    How do we protect our society??? Get harsh with the offenders ... but going witch hunting is not the answer.

     

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    GoblinJuice, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:17am

    Re: Re: So, let me get this straight....

    Quick, easy way to remember the difference: Slander is spoken, libel is printed (think "library").

     

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    BTR1701, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:17am

    Bad Journalism

    The problem with these "Catch a Predator" shows arises when you examine the basic ethics of journalism. The news media is supposed to remain unbiased and objective. In a story about law enforcement, they're not supposed to take the side of either law enforcement or the suspect. They're supposed to merely report the facts of the case.

    However, in these child sting shows, in order for the chat room evidence to be used in court against these guys, both the Perverted Justice folks and the Dateline crew have to be sworn in as special deputies, working with the police. So now you have a journalist who has completely stepped out of his role as reporter and become a cop and has violated his ethical obligation to objectively tell the story without bias.

    I also have to laugh when it comes to the way the cops swarm all over these guys when they walk out the door and tackle them to the ground as if they are al-Qa'ida mass-murderers.

    The cops' excuse for doing so in one of the past shows was that it was a residential neighborhood in Florida and the Florida concealed carry laws are so liberal, they don't want to take the chance that one of these guys could have a gun and shoot off some rounds in suburbia.

    Of course that begs the question as to why they're luring these dangerous, perverted and possibly armed sexual deviants into people's neighborhoods in the first place. The cops and Dateline create the dangerous situation and then use the fact that it's a dangerous situation as an excuse to play tough cop.

    And if they're really worried that one of these guys might be armed, then I have to wonder how much protection that Dateline reporter has. What's to stop one of these guys, who is watching his life swirl down the crapper right there in front him, from deciding he's got nothing left to lose and pulling a gun on Mr. Dateline? He could send three rounds right through Chris Hansen before anyone could do anything to stop him.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:33am

    Re:

    Scientologists, Republicans or pedophiles


    Don't forget the Wiccans, Democrats, and homosexuals! :)

     

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    scate, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 8:43am

    "There's no doubt that Perverted Justice's reason for being is good

    You mean that their **stated** reason for being is good. It is not clear that this organization of vigilantes is, in fact, good.

     

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    dorpass, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 9:14am

    Re: Anon Coward

    "To the comment above that implied "there isn't any proof so and so is a pedophile"; Rookiee used the boylove logo on his wiki profile. He was proud about it. He had been told to remove it. When you combine this with his posts elsewhere encouraging wiki edits with pro pedo slant, there's plenty of proof."

    And the proof of the person being a pedophile is...? There are plenty marijuana use supporters out there that do not use it themselves, does that make them drug users? You obviously lack the understanding of "proof" and how it all fits in with "due process."

     

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    RandomThoughts, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 9:33am

    What is difficult here? Someone goes to a house to meet a 12 year old. Transcripts show that the person is expecting to meet a 12 year old for sex. Seems pretty obvious to me. Lured, encouraged, tough, they deserve what they get. Does Dateline or PJ force them to make the drive? I don't think so.

    Of course the cops swarm the person, ever see a cop go up to a car on a routine traffic stop that didn't have their hand on their gun?

    I do have to say, either some posts are trolling or there really is a pervert PR campaign going on.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 9:55am

    Re:

    Right. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a troll or a pedophile.

    FOAD.

     

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    Kurt Herman, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 10:01am

    Re:

    You mean the National Assosiation of Marlon Brando Look Alikes? :)

     

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    Kurt Herman, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 10:02am

    Re:

    You mean the National Assosiation of Marlon Brando Look Alikes? :)

     

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    Over the Top, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 10:21am

    Right idea- wrong way

    I work on the side of law enforcement in this issue and it is a serious issue. As with everything else going on in this world there are not enough people wearing a badge to deal with this- hence groups like PJ. While I applaud their willingness to want to take action and contribute to the cause- there are issues with PJ members. In several instances PJ has been accused of entrapment and in several areas prosecutor's will not charge on cases done by PJ and groups like PJ. On the law enforcement side we have strict rules and guidelines we have to follow as well as a knowledge of the law and procedures. Training is also required to engage in investigations of this nature. Unfortunatly, when people or groups engage their own enforcement efforts,often they wander outside the parameters of what is legally allowed causing problems and creating legal loopholes for the very people we are trying to catch.
    I would be more impressed if PJ was working with Law Enforcement in a "quiet" manner instead of the sensationalism that is present with MSNBC. It is nothing more than the latest reality TV.

     

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    Michael Long, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 10:24am

    RE: Three rounds

    "He could send three rounds right through Chris Hansen before anyone could do anything to stop him."

    Better to send the three rounds through the camera. NBC would probably morn the loss of an expensive HD camera more than the reporter. Plenty of people ready to replace him.

    Then again, they could probably play up the loss of the reporter... Could be worth millions in free advertising for the network and show.

    Never mind. Back to plan A.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 11:12am

    Re:

    220+ convictions, that is all they have to show for all the time they have been active???

    that's just pathetic...

     

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    barren waste, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 11:41am

    Huh?

    Look at the numbers convicted, and the laws that convicted them and tell me that our government is dispensing justice and not just burning heretics at the stake. It is illegal for a man to walk up to a woman and say "You are pretty, can I buy you a beer." if the woman then says she felt threatened by it. It's happened. How are people supposed to meet and express intrest in a world where communication between sexes sends the man to prison? Not only that, but take a close look at the laws regarding pedophilia. Since when does the defendent have to prove him/herself innocent?

    Here it is. The child goes to a therapist. The therapist declares that the child has been abused. They arrest some poor sod and hold him/her till the court date. The date rolls around and what does the person have to defend his/herself against? No physical proof, no dates or times, and no facing the accuser. Just the word of the therapist. And here it is...the verdict....most of the time the sod goes to jail.

    The conviction rate isn't high because the law enforcement agencies are just that good. The conviction rate is so high because it is darn near impossible to beat a rape case in this day and age.

    These PJ people are not helping the American People. They are nothing more than vultures, creating thier own carrion. I charge any of you to look into the laws, the penalties, and the people and then tell me what is being done is "good" and "right".

     

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    GoblinJuice, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 11:49am

    Re: Right idea- wrong way

    Not sure in what capacity you "work on the side of law enforcement in this issue", but thank you.

     

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    Lucretious, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 12:38pm

    Just a bunch of vigilante knotheads who had a good idea but have turned it into a springboard for a handful of ego's. It's only a matter of time before they step over the line and piss someone off who isn't going to skulk away. At that point they'll either be sued into oblivion or someone is going to get shot.

     

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    BTR1701, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:02pm

    Re: Bad Journalism

    Well, fortunately or not, the legal issues are a bit more complicated than that. Which is why one of these days, one of these guys is going to get a smart lawyer who will sue NBC for putting his client's face on TV without a signed release. Shows like COPS have to get a release for everyone they put on the air (that's why half the time the faces are blurred out on that show-- they didn't get a release from those people).

    The legal distinction between requiring a release and not requiring one is the difference between hard news and entertainment. A hard news show is not legally required to obtain a release from people for 1st Amendment reasons. But an entertainment show does require a legal release. And NBC has clearly crossed over from hard news to entertainment with this "Predator" series. If they're ever sued by one of these guys they're going to have a hard time making the case that this is hard news, considering they've violated
    just about every one of the canon of ethics for journalism with this nonsense.

     

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    BTR1701, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:06pm

    Re: RE: Three rounds

    > Then again, they could probably play up the loss
    > of the reporter... Could be worth millions in free
    > advertising for the network and show.

    Yep, we'd then have endless weeks of tributes to the "courageous" reporter who gave his life to protect us all by exposing sexual predators.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:09pm

    Re: Perverted Justice is Probably 50% pedohiles.

    WHO GETS TO DETERMINE WHAT THE DEFINITION OF THE PERFECT WORLD IS???
    In every case, history has shown that it is whomever has the power to do so.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  48.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:12pm

    BTR1701, it would be worth it as long as the pervert either offed himself or the cops did.

     

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  49.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:18pm

    Re: Huh?

    The conviction rate is so high because it is darn near impossible to beat a rape case in this day and age.
    Because the accusation itself is usually considered to be sufficient "evidence" for conviction.

     

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  50.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:21pm

    Re: Re: Bad Journalism

    A hard news show is not legally required to obtain a release from people for 1st Amendment reasons. But an entertainment show does require a legal release.
    And here I was thinking that the 1st amendment applied to everyone in the US. Silly me.

     

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  51.  
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    RandomThoughts, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:30pm

    The conviction rate is so high because prosecutors typically only go to court with cases they know they can win.

     

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  52.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 1:46pm

    Re: Re: Re: Bad Journalism

    The 1st doesn't cover everyone. Ask an active duty member of the armed services. Oh, yeah, you can't make money off of a person - in this way, at least - without a release.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    identicon
    Pete Carr, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 3:00pm

    My comments regarding Eide.

    Hello everyone,

    Great conversation here regarding the latest in a series of mishaps concerning both Perverted-Justice.com and Dateline NBC.

    I posted the news article in our News section, and also on our blog.

    The blog entry is a bit different than the news article, and I'll post my thoughts here.

    "Publishers Comment.

    I do not understand why WilyD has deleted the entire Talk section. In light of ongoing court cases, and to preserve evidence and information, the Talk section should not have been deleted.

    Deleting it also causes me to wonder about the effectiveness of any Wikipedia Administrator who has, what appears to be, censored Wikipedia. If User WilyD agrees with Perverted-Justice.com, then it is incumbent upon him to keep those in check, and adhere to the “Negative Point of View” of Wikipedia.

    I believe it is vital to show why Eide, aka XavierVE was blocked from posting in Wikipedia. WileyD has, by deleting the Talk section, removed publicly viewable evidence supporting the blocking.

    Furthermore, I call on Eide to mature, state his case as an adult, adhere to the rules governing Wikipedia, and be allowed to post within Wikipedia, at such time as determined by the Wikipedia Administration.

    Censorship is censorship, no matter who. Granted, both Eide and his detractors have other outlets to state their respective cases, but, should Eide stay within the boundaries set up by Wikipedia, I welcome his input into Wikipedia."

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 4:39pm

    Hmmm intresting quote from PJ site

    Wow I'm cross posting a post from tech that was used on the PJ site to show how stupid people are. Now I admit I know nothing of the people or personalities involved however this just pisses me off.
    -----------------------------

    Selected comment #2:
    Or, if you want to look at this from wikipedia's standpoint.. Person A says Person B is a pedophile. Person B says they aren't. Why should you believe person A over person B? (Or vice versa?).

    Because person B doesn't deny it in 99% of cases
    ------------------------------

    So what you are saying is that you can accuse me of anything and unless I strenuously object repeatedly in all forms of media...I am what you accused me of being. Thats just stupid logic if you ask me.

     

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  55.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 5:09pm

    Whoa blamming service providers

    Ok another stupid thing.... I was about to say why don't you blame phone companies and utility companies cause obviously the provide data and power to pedophiles....However I check your website and I it appears you have already done that at least in one case....how stupid

     

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  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 24th, 2007 @ 9:37pm

    Quoting number 35;
    "And the proof of the person being a pedophile is...? There are plenty marijuana use supporters out there that do not use it themselves, does that make them drug users? You obviously lack the understanding of "proof" and how it all fits in with "due process.""

    You don't need due process to be kicked out of wiki. It's a private organization. No legal procedures are required. You, Xavier, and Rookie the boylover doesn't have any right to post on wiki.

    Obviously, you don't understand that due process is a legal term that applies to the state charging individuals. If you get banned from techdirt for being a knucklehead, you have no legal recourse. The owners and operators of techdirt don't need a court order to ban you.

    Rookiee wasn't banned for being a pedophile. He was banned for violating wiki NPV rules. It's his own statements that label himself a pedophile. Feel free to front for any cause you care to, but recuse yourself from altering wiki articles on your bias. Rookiee didn't do that, he did the opposite. There was no "due process" because he wasn't charged by the government.

     

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  57.  
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    mike allen, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 3:28am

    huh

    I wonder how many people outside the UK have heard the phrase "you protest too much" meaning that if someone or a group keep on about one thing too much they are themselves that which they are protesting about PJ in this case appear to protest too much

     

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  58.  
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    Intelligent Reader, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 8:00am

    Re: Re: It's actually worse than that!

    Check out this link: http://www.nbc-2.com/articles/readarticle.asp?articleid=10896&z=3&p=

    Most of the people they "catch" in their stings can't be held more than nine months!

    "Simmons discovered that of the eight convictions from the Fort Myers Dateline sting, four men have already been released. Sixteen other men that were arrested are still waiting for their day in court.

    "I believe the longest sentence that we have is nine months, that's not nearly enough to convince these people not to go on the internet and look for their next victim," said Chief Daniels."

     

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  59.  
    identicon
    Intelligent Reader, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 8:06am

    Re: Riiiiiiiight....

    Because in the history of the world no one has EVER altered transcripts, amirite?

    Stop letting these amateurs muck everything up playing out their wannabe cybercop fantasies and allow the *REAL* cops to do their jobs. You know, the TRAINED law enforcement officers who know how to dot their 'i's and cross their 't's so anyone actually trying to commit a crime gets caught and STAYS caught?

     

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  60.  
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    Intelligent Reader, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 8:14am

    Re:

    Right, he was. For allegedly breaking NPV in his editing. Now XavierVE is banned for the same reason--breaking NPV in his edits. What's the problem here? An encyclopedia is *supposed* to be neutral in its point of view!

     

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  61.  
    identicon
    Observer, Aug 25th, 2007 @ 7:40pm

    Pedophilia

    1. Pedophilia, when acted on, is illegal.
    2. It is law enforcement's job to deal with it.
    3. Vigilante groups do not operate under civil liberties safeguards.
    4. Vigilante groups are fair game when the violate the law.
    5. Sting operations can cut both ways. For civil libertarians who are offended by vigilante groups, a few reverse sting operations might go a long way to clear minds
    6. Once vigilante groups are legally penalized as a result of 5 (above) or end up paying heavy court-ordered damages, perhaps they will come to understand the laws of the land rather better.
    7. Nothing in this post should be interpreted as defending pedophiles, who are repugnant both to morality and the law.
    8. Infringing civil liberties for "the greater good" is something only Congress and the Supreme Court have the right to do, and most carefully and with circumspection.
    9. To understand the issue clearly, we could easily eliminate overtime parking by making it a death penalty offense. That doesn't mean we should do so.

     

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  62.  
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    Lucretious, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 6:18am

    #67 shows exactly what these wannabe cops are all about. They can't handle criticism so when their usual "if you protest you must be one of them" shtick falls flat they resort to idiotic spamming.

    GG guys,GG.

     

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  63.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 6:59am

    #80
    "A few reverse sting..."

    What are you suggesting? Going into yahoo chat and arranging to meet some kids, untill you find a real cop or PJ contributor?

    How many felonys are you willing to commit before you actually find someone to "reverse sting"?

     

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  64.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 12:11pm

    Re:

    How many felonys are you willing to commit before you actually find someone to "reverse sting"?
    What would be the crime? While it may be illegal to solicit minors for the purpose of sex, they would actually be doing the opposite: looking for adults for a non-sexual purpose. Is that a felony? I don't think so.

     

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  65.  
    identicon
    claire rand, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 12:48pm

    Brass eye

    Chris Moris pissed a lot of people off by being a bit too close to the bone over this issue, personally I think he got it dead right.

    and the gibberish above, which I assume is an attempt at stopping people reading any further, i.e. fingers in the ears shouting to drown out something someone doesn't like..

    well its a bit playground isn't it?

     

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  66.  
    identicon
    David Sternlight, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re:Stinging the stingers

    Vigilante groups tend to jump to conclusions rather too easily. There are many ways to sting them which do not involve either illegal or morally repugnant acts. To be more specific would serve to put them on notice. Instead, "the proof is left to the student".

    Once they are caught red-handed in illegal acts, both civil and criminal law will provide adequate remedy, and clear their minds as to the boundaries of acceptable action in aid of whatever cause a particular vigilante group is pursuing.

    Nothing in this post is intended to defend pedophilia, which when acted on is both illegal and morally repugnant.

     

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  67.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 5:14pm

    Re: Re: Re:Stinging the stingers

    Vigilante groups tend to jump to conclusions rather too easily. There are many ways to sting them which do not involve either illegal or morally repugnant acts. To be more specific would serve to put them on notice.
    In that case then, I call bullshit.

     

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  68.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Aug 26th, 2007 @ 7:25pm

    I wonder how PJ would react if someone started naming their members.

     

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  69.  
    identicon
    UH...BoB, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 5:30am

    They seem like attention whores. Rolling Stone accommodated them in issue 1032. Don't ignore the man behind the curtain.

     

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  70.  
    identicon
    RandomThoughts, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 7:33am

    Lets use some reality here now. Is it any wonder why individuals deem it needed based on how our law enforcement really works? Leave it to the professionals? Like how the Newark police arrested an illegal alien for child molestation and then let him out on bail? One has to wonder why an illegal alien can get bail for child molestation. Then the guy is arrested a few months later for the execution of 3 Newark college students.

    And you say that the 4 arrested in the FL stings only got 9 months?

     

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  71.  
    identicon
    Over the Top, Aug 27th, 2007 @ 11:14am

    A few points

    For those who are discussing this matter as adults I would submit the following comments;

    1. The multiple entries regarding tech dirt being full of pedophiles is a good example of why persons with the mental capacities similiar to those of young children with behavioral issues should not participate in meaningful communications regarding this issue. I am not sure if the post was meant to disrupt this topic, or if the poster accidently posted their application for employment with PJ in this forum. This is my juvenile attempt at humor.
    2. Post #80 makes some excellent points.
    3.I would warn that acting on ones own and attempting to engange in stings and so forth could result in a variety of legal problems, despite the best of intentions. Murphy's law would, in this instance dictate, that despite what others may get away with, you would be the one that would be used by the prosecutor to send a message to others.
    4.People/Groups and so on who attempt their own actions often make things more difficult for those performing the same duties in an official capacity. This is because mistakes are made, protocols and laws are not followed and this results in "bad" case law, which further results in legal loop-holes for the real bad guys. It is difficult enough when all the rules are followed. As there is not a "For Dummies" series book on this subject, it would be best be left to those who are properly trained to investigate these type of cases.
    5. I would submit to you yet again that the whole PJ and Dateline series has turned into nothing more than another bad reality t.v. show. I know most of us who worked in this field are not very happy with all the exposure. As previously stated it is difficult enough to work these cases in a proper manner. We didn't really want the bad guys to know we are out there and what methods we use.
    6.Please do not blame law enforcement for the time people serve/or do not serve or the fact that they get out on bail. The POLICE DO NOT EVER "LET" anyone out on bail. That is the legal system and I can guarantee you- it is most frustrating to those of us who spend countless hours working cases only to have a person out in a short amount of time. Not in just these types of cases but in several other serious crimes. No one suffers from this more than the victims and law enforcement. I will not give you the standard line of false hope that if you do not like the legal system you can change it but if you believe that your elected representative will actually listen to you, then contact him/her and voice your concerns. Or contact them and let them know that you feel law enforcement needs to be better funded to investigate these crimes.
    If any one is frustrated by the legal system it is those trying to enforce the laws.
    7.It is a fact that pedophilia is a serious problem, not only in our country but across the world and has been since documentation regarding crimes has been kept. The ages of what is considered "legal" has flucuated with the changes and variety of laws regarding the age of consent-but the crime has occured throughout history. The access to the Internet by typical American households added another method of contact, (one that is more anonymous than previous methods) and widen the access to potential victims. So is the Internet to blame?
    8. Reality is that there are "kids" on line- 13, 14 and so on, posting information and engaging in activities that most people would find shocking and parents, when presented with evidence, often refused to believe what their kid was doing. Should parents be charged for not monitoring their "kids" activity on the Internet? The argument has been presented that if the parents handed their 14 year old the car keys and let them drive, the parents would be charged with an offense for allowing a minor to operate a motor vehicle. Therefore the theory that the parents should be responsible for what their kids are doing on the Internet. Another topic for healthy debate.
    9.Adult conversations/debates such as this are healthy. I do not think that any one in any part of this debate attempted to defend pedophilia. Had that been the case, I think the tone of the responses would have been a bit different. Thanks for letting me participate

     

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  72.  
    identicon
    autonomous, Sep 29th, 2007 @ 2:56am

    put some pic of pedos online.

    persons of pedophilic nature should be tracked since most of em frequent 3rd world countries like my country (India).
    we had seen a man in GOA on a trip(its a tourist place in India).I live in Hyderabad.He was from US.He was seen hanging with urchin kids who sell stuff on beach.Guess what appened to his luggage his credit card and and his hotel room.We hired a girl along withhim.got him drunk and then put cynoacrilite (quickfix)in his ass.The girl was 15.(Ever see a livin dead person.Her eyes were empty hollows).she could have been anything.A mother,a wife.We put her up with an ngo. I say any one caught doin somethin like that.Should be given PROPER tretment. We were seen with man or else his folks could fish for this madarchod in Indian ocean.I say these types of ppl should be put with black serial gay rapists .Let em have the taste of their own medicine.I am not racist for the black part only that they have longer and larger dks. ;)

     

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  73.  
    identicon
    hunter, Aug 11th, 2008 @ 9:55pm

    predators

    my friends make fake screen names like PJ and get guys to drive out to meet them. they get their girlfriends to wait in the meeting place, then they jump out and beat up the predator. they tape it too. much more effective than the show, but i'm worried that they might get hurt.

     

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  74.  
    identicon
    you could be next!!!!, Apr 14th, 2010 @ 6:57am

    Re: Re: Huh?

    This is BS. Anyone can be accused of a crime. There should be evidence to prove it before a conviction can be given. Where is the innocent until proven guilty?

    The government starts taking away our liberty in areas that the public is in agreement of. Our freedom is slowly slipping away and everyone is in support of it. Take the time to look at the restrictions that sex offenders have to live with. Look at satalite based monitoring. In NC, the police can come in your home and do warrantless searches, all to protect the public. The truth is that most of the time, children are molested by people that families know. A mothers boyfriend or husband or a family friend, not strangers. The basis for most of these laws are very rare circumstances from cases that were in every way horrible but should they be enough to make everyone that is on the registry live this way? And by the way, do you know who all is included in this registry? It doesn't take much to get you there.

    Main point: ANYONE CAN BE ACCUSED OF THESE CRIMES! All it takes is someone who believes one little lie and take the charge to court. There it is, your life is over. I think the public needs to be aware of the percentage of wrongful convictions. Jurors go into court and assume that the defendant "must be there for some reason" and the conviction is guaranteed.

    JUST THINK, YOU COULD BE NEXT. DO YOU HAVE AN EX-GIRLFRIEND OR WIFE OF WHOM YOU DONT GET ALONG WITH TO WELL?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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