NBC Exec: Think Of The Poor Corn Farmers Hurt By Movie Piracy

from the wait,-are-these-guys-serious? dept

NBC/Universal's general counsel Rick Cotton must just be trying to push his anti-piracy comments to absurd levels to see just how much he can get away with. We'd already written about his completely unsupportable statements on how law enforcement needs to spend less on traditional crime and focus more on piracy and counterfeiting. We also covered the highly problematic suggestion he made to the FCC that it force ISPs to monitor their traffic for any unauthorized material (complete with more bogus stats). However, as more people dig through that FCC filing there are some amazing quotes that really suggest that Cotton and NBC/Universal have no connection to reality with these pleas. Public Knowledge picks up on NBC's showy concern for the American farmer:
"In the absence of movie piracy, video retailers would sell and rent more titles. Movie theatres would sell more tickets and popcorn. Corn growers would earn greater profits and buy more farm equipment."
There are all sorts of problems with this statement. As Public Knowledge points out, first off, movie theaters are doing great this year, suggesting the big "threat" of piracy had a lot less to do with its troubles than the fact that it just didn't have that many compelling movies the past few years. Also, corn farmers are doing quite well (and people still eat popcorn at home while watching pirated movies). Of course, that doesn't really matter. What's key here is that if Cotton and NBC actually believe this logic, then they don't deserve to be in business. By the very same reasoning, I could say "If all movies were pirated, then everyone would have that additional money they didn't spend on movies to spend on things like fancy dinners. Restaurants would be more crowded. Farmers would make more money by being able to sell more profitable food at higher prices." See how easy it is? It's also completely bogus, but it's just as accurate as Cotton's statement on the corn farmers. To suggest that the ripple effects don't ripple in other directions isn't just misleading, it's dangerously wrong. Of course, knowing how the entertainment industry works, next thing you know, they'll be demanding a cut of the profits corn farmers make, since, after all they're "profiting off the backs of the movie industry" without paying the industry for the benefit.


Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

  1.  
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    Witty Nickname, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:39am

    And all this time I have been hearing on the news about the price of ALL FOODS going up because corn was so expensive and in demand because of Ethanol. I had no idea it was so bad for them.

    I think the real threat is to those guys who make that waxy fake butter that clogs your arteries when you just look at it.

     

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    Robert, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:40am

    First

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:41am

    Re: First

    Jackass, nice job.

     

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    **AA bogus, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:41am

    Careful Mike, they might actually start going down this path ("they'll be demanding a cut of the profits corn farmers make, since, after all they're "profiting off the backs of the movie industry" without paying the industry for the benefit.").

    This is in line with what they do in EU already with all the bogus taxes on media, with the only difference being that the end user pays this tax, not the media manufacturer...

     

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    **AA bogus, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:42am

    Careful Mike, they might actually start going down this path ("they'll be demanding a cut of the profits corn farmers make, since, after all they're "profiting off the backs of the movie industry" without paying the industry for the benefit.").

    This is in line with what they do in EU already with all the bogus taxes on media, with the only difference being that the end user pays this tax, not the media manufacturer...

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:43am

    next thing you know, they'll be demanding a cut of the profits corn farmers make, since, after all they're "profiting off the backs of the movie industry" without paying the industry for the benefit.

    oh, great.... You've just given them their next target

     

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    kip, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:44am

    Corn farmers beign hurt by movies, umm no.

    Wow. What a bad choice of words to say the least as farmers can't kick out enough corn for increased demand based upon its abilities to be used as an alternative fuel source.

    There is a trickle down effect that the reality of the movie industry will turn to that of the music business. There are alot less movies released versus records so its just taken a bit longer.

    Movie firms have to embrace a new model of simultaneous releases around the world of movies and that of consistent, longer term for revenue goals. Blockbusters will be fewer and fewer, epesically since fewer and few people want to deal with $7 popcorns and $8 sodas.

    Theatres need to use the European model of buying tickets for a specific seat and to have alcohol in theatres. Why congregate in a place to watch it ona theatre is I have a 40" tv that I can watch at home.

     

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    Santiago Crespo, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:46am

    Corn Farmers

    He forgot to add "in South America", since most movie-theater popcorn is imported, believe it or not.

     

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    Bob, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 7:59am

    You aren't seriously considering this idiot's view

    This idiot is the same jerk that said Police shouldn't work on RAPE cases because they didn't generate revenue like a COPYRIGHT or PIRACY case would.

    I'm sorry, there are some things that just don't go well with me, and saying a RAPE victim doesn't deserve justice because there's NO MONEY IN IT, crosses the line of decency!

    This guy should seriously seek out some competent mental health facilities!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:03am

    Retarded

    Most 'Corn Farmers' don't even make popcorn. This is retarded.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:10am

    Most people that watch pirated movies are too lazy and cheap to go to the theaters anyways. As long as there are high school hormones raging there will always by theater profits. I don't think you'll impress a girl by watching a low-quality movie at home with your parents in the next room.

     

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    Sanguine Dream, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:11am

    So does that mean...

    the companies that provide popcorn, soda, chip, candy and other snacks to the movie theaters can go after the movie industry for all the money that they make from selling their products since the movie theaters are benefiting from their snacks without paying the respective industries for said benefit?


    Yes I know that is twisted logic but we all know that saying about fighting fire...

     

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    seth brundle, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:23am

    well hes right

    When you pirate, you are absolutely decaying the employment of everyone involved in the entertainment chain, which is his point.

    These are real people, with real jobs, doing great work, and when movies are pirated people think they are 'sticking it to the man' - as if the only people affected were moguls and A-list actors at the top of the food chain - which is just the opposite - they are barely affected at a personal level. Its just self-legitimization.

     

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    Don, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:23am

    "oh, great.... You've just given them their next target"

    heh, the suggestion about the corn farmers is right up there with my idea that if the oil companies weren't gouging me for an extra buck a gallon than they were six months ago. That's like $15-20 every two weeks for me, which incidentally is about the cost of a CD or DVD. By the sort of logic exhibited by the exec above, the oil companies are costing them 26 sales from me alone this year. Therefore by their logic they should sue Exxon-Mobil for costing them valuable sales.

     

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    Hoeppner, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:25am

    farmers are actually over producing corn.

    lots of em around here have silos full that they legally can't sell because they go over their quota(govt controls supply for various reasons). at least it can be used as feed.

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:26am

    Re:

    "Most people that watch pirated movies are too lazy and cheap to go to the theaters anyways. As long as there are high school hormones raging there will always by theater profits. I don't think you'll impress a girl by watching a low-quality movie at home with your parents in the next room"

    I'm sorry, how old are you? Because if taking a chick to the cinema is the best you can come up with you're a fucking loser.

    Wow. Loser!

     

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  17.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:28am

    Re: well hes right

    "When you pirate, you are absolutely decaying the employment of everyone involved in the entertainment chain, which is his point."

    Care to back that statement up? Or should I just say:

    Here trolly, trolly, trolly, troll.

     

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    r72sasko, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:32am

    If it didn't...

    cost $32 just for tickets to take my family of 4 (because the lead actors are making $10-20 million), maybe I could afford to buy more popcorn at $8 for a 55 gallon drum. It is sensationalist statements like the ones by Mr. Cotton that draw attention to the situation but at the same time, it makes people tune him out because they think he has completely lost his mind.

     

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  19.  
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    tweak, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:33am

    Re: well hes right

    Saying he's right shows that you are just as (if not even more) out of touch with reality.
    The very premise of his statement is that same incorrect logic that the RIAA has been using for years- that each instance of piracy equates to a lost sale. Of course, this logic is absolutely false, and merely serves to pad the numbers in favor of the industry.
    People are seeing fewer movies in the theaters in recent years because movies in recent years have sucked. Plain and simple.
    If a truly awesome movie comes out, people will plop down their hard-earned dollars to see it. However, with the crap-fest that most studios have been producing lately, fewer people have been interested. I don't think it's a matter of "should I see this movie in the theatre, or watch a crap pirated version on my tv", so much as it's "should I watch this crap movie I found on the internet, or should I watch reruns of The Price is Right".

     

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  20.  
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    Beefcake, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:45am

    Send Cotton Popcorn

    It's time to rise up! I mean, if CBS will spend millions of dollars to bring back a show that didn't make any money just because people send them peanuts, maybe NBC will fire an idiot executive with diarrhea of the mouth and brain if we send them popcorn. Then the exec could turn to the agriculture lobby as his next gig because he's so in tune with them, and we would have inadvertently sent Cotton to the corn farmers.

    This is agriculturally confusing.

     

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  21.  
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    Max Swanson, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:47am

    Corn Farmers and Piracy

    This posting is right on the money. I naively thought that the passing of Jack Valenti might have a ripple effect in the direction of reality-based thinking, but 'tis not to be. Let's give the entertainment moguls a slice of the profit on cars, since folks have been known to listen to music in them. BTW, I'ma local studio musician with a couple copyrights listed with BMI, so I feel qualified to speak to this point; and it doesn't make the entertainment mouthpieces any less wacko when they go on as they do!

     

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  22.  
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    ScaryLarry, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 8:56am

    How about this?

    How bout this scenario?

    People pirate movies...computer and graphics card sales go up, dvd players and blank media sales increase, Retailers are happy.
    But what about the teenagers who work at the movie-plex. They lose their job because theatres shut down due to piracy...they adopt a drug habit that they now cannot afford due to depression over their job loss. This of course will make psychiatrists and drug dealers see a boom in their business and let's say this will mean cop's will be more in demand with the unemployed hooligans running the streets, which will in turn mean that us, joe citizen will have to pay more taxes to cover their overtime pay.
    With less money in our pockets, this of course will affect corn farmers. I for one know when money is tight, there is no room in the budget for "Creamed Corn" or Orville Redenbacher".
    This will of course cause the corn farmer suicide rate to go up, as it does every 15-20 years. Which will cause a boom in business for grave diggers and morticians and such.
    Now back to the unemployed theater ushers. With no other job opportunity that will live up to carrying a flashlight and all that responsibility of cleaning spilled soda off the floor, the unemployment rate will go up as will the welfare rate.
    Sure a few of these unemployed punks will find sanctuary at the booming retailers, but c'mon retail work sucks!

    If you think all this is worth it, then go ahead and keep on pirating movies, but please think of the lowly usher's face the next time you do...and what ripples you may be causing.

     

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  23.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:27am

    Re: Re:

    actually i'm 26...


    Best I can come up with for what?

    I was just thinking of the reasons I went to the theater when i was younger. Don't get all pissy because I called pirated movie downloaders cheap and lazy.

     

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  24.  
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    BigEd, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:29am

    Now I've heard it all....

    Not really, as I know they still have a lot more bullshit to pass on. Next will be that since were not going to the theater and eating popcorn we are taking dumps as much, therefor the toilet paper industry in also losing out on piracy.



    Also you "First" people are a-holes. Just plain and simple totally ignorant, brain dead, 2 year olds. You've given a new meaning to the first post and it says "I'm First at being a loser".

     

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  25.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:32am

    All that excess corn can go to the production of cleaning burning ethanol! So pirate your music and movies to prevent global warming!

    I pirate for cleaner, healthier planet!

     

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  26.  
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    Jake_teh_man, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:32am

    That is a far stretch. More tickets sold != more popcorn sold. The United States is trying to get in better shape (I hope) and not eat popcorn with butter on top. The price of popcorn is around $4 at the movie theater I go to. I never buy popcorn anyway.

     

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  27.  
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    rEdEyEz, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:33am

    popped corn(ball) economics

    Taken a little further, if theaters were required to pay back revenues "by seat count" instead of "by ticket count," then just think of the substantial increase in additional profits that could be realized by the MPAA for the artistes and fatcat studio executives!

    Subsequently, the theaters could then charge $50 for each tub of greased corn (5¢ worth) , and $15 per soda (5¢ worth) to maintain THEIR profit margin, ....and it's a win-win-win for everyone!

    (well, of course, except for the farmer - who still only gets $4 per bushel)

    Have these people ever considered that their "entertaining" product is diminishing in [TICKET volume:profit] because the "quality/content/originality" of their product sucks, and because it is NON-ESSENTIAL?

    Or does the cornball moralist in you suggest that farmers are suffering because "the same criminal elements that pirate movies are just as likely to steal corn from the fields of the plowman?"

     

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  28.  
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    Lucy, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:33am

    Dear Rick

    Open letter to Rick Cotton:

    I have no problem paying good money for good media content. Most of what NBC and their ilk churn out is crap that I wouldn't download for free, even if I could! So there. Ever heard the joke about ten thousand lawyers at the bottom of the sea? Never mind.

     

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  29.  
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    David Canton, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:41am

    Corn farmers and movie piracy

    So no one eats popcorn at home when they watch a movie??

     

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  30.  
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    chris, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:45am

    kneecaps

    So... Is anyone going to shoot this guy in the kneecaps?

     

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    kurros, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 10:08am

    don't forget the corn thats used in the film stock, the soda, the wax lining of the soda cups and popcorn buckets, the nachos, the candy.... corn farmers are doomed!

     

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  32.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 10:20am

    Re:

    Where is this that they can't "legally" sell their corn due to quotas?

     

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    SPR, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 10:41am

    Who gives a rats ass about the movie industry anyway??!

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 10:47am

    Re: Re:

    #32: I believe he is referring to the export quotas. It becomes even more complex when the huge subsidies for corn are factored it.

    It's not "illegal" in the traditional sense--noones going to go to jail--but there are tariffs involved which pretty much ensures it doesn't happen.

     

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  35.  
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    Don, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 10:51am

    Re:

    "Most people that watch pirated movies are too lazy and cheap to go to the theaters anyways"

    Not true at all. I'll give you just one example. I stopped by a friends house the day before Star Wars Episode 3 came out and they were having a viewing party with a leaked copy of film (I couldn't stay but I saw the first like ten minutes of it, and it was the completed film, it just had a timestamp running at the bottom). There were about a dozen people at this party and I know every single one of them still went to see the movie at least once, in some cases 2 or 3 times, at the theater. Most of them had expressed severe reservations (given the weakness of Episodes 1 and 2) about seeing this film before that. Yes, some people are too cheap to actually pay for anything. A lot of people, however, just was some assurance that they are getting a real value for the $10-20 they are plopping down.

     

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  36.  
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    Semicharm, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 11:02am

    Clueless

    If it wasn't for Heroes, I would just tell NBC to kiss my ass. Besides, broadcast entertainment is just sooo last century.

    A big reason that some turn to internet piracy is that it's basically instant, on-demand entertainment. Hell, why do you think that anymore watches the crap on YouTube? If they would compete with that, then piracy would go down.

     

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  37.  
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    Mmm, popcorn, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 11:04am

    I'm seriously craving some movie theater popcorn right now. No movies though, I'll just buy a bucket and take it home.

     

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  38.  
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    FreeSpeech, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 11:09am

    Piracy Prevents Starvation

    Following the lines of the increased movie ticket sales leading to increased popcorn sales:
    Corn prices from increased ethanol demand are already causing tortillas in Mexico to become unaffordable. If the movie industry cracks down on piracy and further increases corn demand, then prices will rise even higher, fueling starvation and hence increased illegal immigration from Latin America.

    So, I think this NBC lawyer probably needs to be on trial for murdering the immigrants who die in the desert as they attempt to cross into the United States. I mean, a logical argument like that is something a lawyer should be able to understand.

     

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    Dan, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 11:16am

    Re: First

    sucks

     

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  40.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 12:05pm

    Re: You aren't seriously considering this idiot's

    This guy should seriously seek out some competent mental health facilities!
    Why? He's just being corporate. Corporations are only supposed to care about making money, not about morality issues. What do you expect?

     

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  41.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 12:08pm

    I don't pirate movies because I don't because want to sit in front of a computer screen to watch a movie recording with timer at the bottom, babies crying, and cell phones going off. Yes I'll get the same treatment if I actually go to the theater but at least the picture/sound quality is better than my home setup.

    So if I pirate movies at home and dont go to the theater I'm hurting not only the movie industry but also the corn industry, or so I'm told. Then who am I hurting if I go to the theater and I sneak in my own candy? Does this mean Hershey, Resse, and all the candy companies will unite to form the Candy and Chocolate Coalition?

    Or maybe the Coalition Opposed to Counterfeit candy for Kids.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 12:16pm

    Re: Re: Re:

    Right. Not your average farmer Bob. Just wanted the clarification.

     

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    GoblinJuice, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 12:42pm

    lmao.

    Oh, man, this guy is sooo high.

     

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    John, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 1:21pm

    What about M&M's farmers

    If this guy is so concerned about the corn farmers who may lose business if people stop going to the movies, what about the poor M&M's farmers? Entire crops of Twizzlers could be lost just because people won't go to the movies and buy a $6.00 box of candy! The horror!

    I am glad that these executives are looking out for the corn farmer instead of looking for ways to cut costs... like, say, only giving Tom Cruise $10 million per movie instead of $20 million.

     

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  45.  
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    capt. bly, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 3:12pm

    just copied my 1000 title from blockbuster, thanx

    http://www.mactheripper.org/

     

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  46.  
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    KrAzYkArL, Jun 22nd, 2007 @ 9:25pm

    Re:

    "All that excess corn can go to the production of cleaning burning ethanol! So pirate your music and movies to prevent global warming!

    I pirate for cleaner, healthier planet!"

    I pirate because I care

     

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  47.  
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    James, Jun 23rd, 2007 @ 7:30pm

    Hmmm...

    I wouldn't mind seeing a graph correlating the data between attendance (tickets sold), and refreshment revenue vs. the price of each over time.

    The movie industry and theatre experience have many issues that have been listed here numerous times. When it costs (nearly) $10 for a movie ticket and you have to take out a 2nd mortgage for refreshments, and deal with idiots who talk and answer their cell phones, people begin to consider other entertainment options.

     

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  48.  
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    Intellegent Coward, Jun 24th, 2007 @ 4:40am

    What a maroon!

    Corn is such a heavily subsidised crop that business grow it for the subsidies and then it is so cheap that they use loose corn starch for making molds.

    Hell people could stop eating corn and the farmers would still have a market. Not that family farmers make enough money for it to be worth it half the time.

    now this yahoo thinks that the non existant slump in theatre attendance is going to make farmers go broke.

    ya... that will happen.

     

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  49.  
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    Joe, Jun 24th, 2007 @ 11:58am

    Theater is a waste of time

    I prefer to watch movies in my home theater chair with my 7.1 surround sound and 47" widescreen tv. I can pause the movie for a restroom break or to answer the phone at any time. I am in the privacy of my own home without everyones screaming kids or cell phones ringing to interrupt my movie experience. I support the corn farmers by air popping my popcorn in the microwave, and the movie industry by purchasing DVDs.
    The knuckleheads think we all steal from them. I wish they would quit doing their cocaine and wake up to reality.

     

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  50.  
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    Me, Jun 25th, 2007 @ 1:04am

    Corn Farmers

    http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=40539

    I have 200+ movies in my private collection. All pirated!

     

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  51.  
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    DaVinci42, Jun 25th, 2007 @ 1:30pm

    BT HELPS Farmers

    Popcorn is really expensive at the Movies. I'd have to say I eat more popcorn at HOME when watching movies. So really, the less people go to theaters, the better off corn farmers are.

     

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    Mffmfmfmffff, Jun 25th, 2007 @ 3:09pm

    Hmmm...mmmfmfmfmf

    mmmhhmahahahahahaaaaaa!!!

     

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  53.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Jun 26th, 2007 @ 12:57am

    I don't get it. The content-mafia is so unbelievably ridiculous, I just can't believe what I'm reading.

    Just go and die. I won't EVER buy any content anymore. And I sure won't download your crap either. Rot in hell.

    Poor artists :-( but I'll support my fav artists by going to their concerts anyway. So what. Nobody needs the industry anyway.

     

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  54.  
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    Shandooga, Jun 27th, 2007 @ 9:50am

    Hypocricy makes a quantum leap.

    This is sheer desperation on the part of media devils. The internet is here and your control party is over.

     

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  55.  
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    SparcMan, Jun 29th, 2007 @ 2:46pm

    Down with Pirates!

    Movie piracy promotes global warming, terrorism, AIDS, cannibalism and communism!

    How much you wanna bet we see anti-piracy advocates claim any or all of the above in the near future?

     

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    Tully, Sep 18th, 2007 @ 4:47am

    Popcorn != Corn

    The one thing I found most absurd is he's trying to say Farmers would sell more corn if the movie theatre could sell more popcorn.

    Popcorn and Corn are not the same thing. They're two different plants and only a very very small majority of farmers actually grow popcorn. Most of which are subcontracted by the major popcorn companies. Once you know this, it makes this comment even MORE absurd.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    Bob, Oct 30th, 2007 @ 1:02pm

    Re: well hes right

    @seth brundle: "When you pirate, you are absolutely decaying the employment of everyone involved in the entertainment chain, which is his point."

    When you legitimately purchase content to play it on your legitimately purchased device, such as when you buy an episode of Heroes to watch on your iPod, you're certainly not "pirating" anything. However, Zucker still wants a cut of the device sale—which would NOT be going to the individuals who physically created that content (at least until/unless contracts are re-negotiated—writers may go on strike in November for that very reason).

    How, exactly, is this justified?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    identicon
    Michael Nielsen, Aug 6th, 2008 @ 4:53am

    Re: Down with Pirates!

    I've already got some DVD's that I bought - where they have an anti pirate add in the end, that claims excactly that - piracy supports terror, and organised crime etc.

    You know I really don't want that crap on my legally bought movies.

    I'm a keen cinema goer, with my girlfriend, however in the last 4 years, when we've wanted to go to the cinema, we've looked at what was running, and about 90% of the time, we decided that the crap that was running, wasn't even worth watching when it goes on to "free" tv, and we were definitely not going to pay to see it.

    We used to go to the cinema about 1-2 times a months, that dropped to about 1-2 times per year, due to crap movies.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Sep 16th, 2008 @ 1:10pm

    Re: well hes right

    true, except for one flaw, they don't pirate great movies, they pirate movies that are ok, but not worth buying. its somewhat akin to offering everyone a free cookie at the mall, many people will take it and eat it. if the cookie tastes like cardboard and you charge 20 bucks a cookie though no one will even think about it.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Nov 25th, 2009 @ 12:39pm

    "In the absence of movie piracy, video retailers would sell and rent more titles. Movie theatres would sell more tickets and popcorn. Corn growers would earn greater profits and buy more farm equipment."

    So piracy is hurting those who make equipment, which hurts the tractor (or whatever) industry, which hurts the steel industry, it hurts the industry that makes engines too, which somehow affects Airplanes, which hurts national defense, which promotes terrorism, which hurts Nasa and our space agencies, which hurts the government, which hurts the education, which hurts medicine, which promotes bio terrorism.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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