High Copper Prices Have Some Shocking Consequences

from the darwin dept

In many less developed nations, mobile telephony had a leg up on fixed-line systems as it is far easier for operators to guard their base station sites than to try to stop people from digging up their wiring and sell it for scrap. However, with copper prices soaring on heavy demand from China, people in the first world are getting in on the act, too -- with some disastrous consequences. Two guys in Masschusetts were fatally electrocuted when they tried to steal some copper wire from an unoccupied electric plant, while earlier, two people in Arkansas met a similar fate when they tried to steal wire from utility poles. Telecom operators may not care so much about people dying, but the problem of theft remains, so they're looking at other solutions. For instance, one Chinese operator says it will use ethernet in rural areas, rather than copper wiring, to avoid the problem. Meanwhile, some US politicians are trying to pass new laws to crack down on scrap metal theft, and wiring theft in particular. But if people are ignoring the risks posed by attempting to steal copper from power lines and plants, it seems rather unlikely the prospect of more jail time will act as much of a deterrent.


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  1.  
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    dorpus, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 6:57am

    Heh

    Over in Japan, playgrounds have had disappearing slides, public bathrooms have had disappearing faucets, roads have had disappearing manhole covers from Chinese thieves.

     

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  2.  
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    TheDock22, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:06am

    Re: Heh

    Those things are made of copper?

     

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    Greg, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:17am

    For instance, one Chinese operator says it will use ethernet in rural areas, rather than copper wiring, to avoid the problem.

    Wait, how is this a solution at all? Ethernet is still twisted-pair copper. It might be harder to get to inside the sheathing, and there'd be less metal overall, but it's still completely steal-able and sell-able.

     

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    eh, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:24am

    mmmhmmm

    I have heard of meth users stealing copper cables/scrap and selling it for YEARS.

    Infact I knew a person or two that did it on a regular basis. Nothing new there unfortunatly....

     

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    KenB, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:25am

    Probably meant: "For instance, one Chinese operator says it will use [wireless] ethernet in rural areas, rather than copper wiring, to avoid the problem."

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:29am

    I don't like the tone of this sentence:

    Telecom operators may not care so much about people dying, but the problem of theft remains, so they're looking at other solutions.

    Are you implying that Telecom operators don't care that people may die (they probably do care) or instead that Telecom operators are not as worried about the possibility that people may die from stealing their wires?

     

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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:30am

    Good

    "Two guys in Masschusetts were fatally electrocuted when they tried to steal some copper wire from an unoccupied electric plant, while earlier, two people in Arkansas met a similar fate when they tried to steal wire from utility poles."

    I hope they get electrocuted and die. It's natural selection coming full circle. Damn drug addicts around here are always stealing stuff for meth and wire has just been the latest spree. More then 75-80% of ALL property crime in Oregon is related to meth and other drug addicts... so the way I see it, we need more of these giant bug zappers.

     

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    SkidMark BaggyPants, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:31am

    Sad as it is

    the Chinese have probably found a new for their baby girls so they won't have to drown them. Just keep them a few years and send them in with wire cutters to snip power wires until they cut a hot one.

     

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  9.  
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    Dude, where's my A/C, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:32am

    No A/C

    People tried to steal my air conditioner for scrap copper last winter. They didn't get away with it, but did enough damage to the unit that i had to buy a new one anyway.

     

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    rb, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:37am

    The Kronk Gym

    The Kronk Gym, former home of boxing champions like Tommy "Hitman" Hearns, Hilmer Kenty and Milton McCory has been permanently closed by the City of Detroit after scrap scavengers broke into the facility and stole all of the plumbing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronk_Gym

     

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    Sanguine Dream, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:54am

    Cracking down?

    If the possibility of death won't scare them away what good would tougher punishments be?

     

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    Republican GUn, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:55am

    Price of Copper

    I thought this article was going to be about the fact that copper has gone up in price, not bums electrocuting themselves.

    Copper has risen so much in price that a roll of pennies is worth more than a roll of nickels. What does that say about inflation? Or the fact that our Federal Reserve Notes aren't worth that much either.

     

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    BostonLiveWire, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:02am

    Re: Price of Copper

    Is that the mostly zinc pennies made after 1980?

     

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    Jesse McNelis, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:02am

    Re: Good

    and why do the meth heads have to steal?
    oh, yeah. The huge markup on drug due to their ilegal nature.

    If you stopped the 'war on drugs' I reckon you'd see a huge reduction in street crime, 75-80% according to you.
    Obviously you could also redirect all the money saved in law enforcement and reduction in theft in the programs to education people about drug use, rehab programs etc.

     

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    Forrest Hudspeth, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:16am

    Re: Re: Good

    *claps*

    Good point Jesse.

     

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    grapeshot, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:20am

    Re: Re: Heh

    Hey, metal prices, including that of stainless steel and anything coated with zinc, have been increasing exponentially. I think at the moment, however, copper has the highest $/lb value.

     

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    mark, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:25am

    Re: Price of Copper

    I hope thats a roll of old pennies. There isn't much copper in pennies anymore. Mostly Zinc. They are cheaper than steel washers for decks though....

     

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    Jamie, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:26am

    Re: Re: Good

    I'm not really for or against drug control. I personally don't care enough to have an opinion. That said, I feel like I should inject a little reason into your statement.

    Despite the "markup" on illegal drugs, I somehow doubt that stopping the "war on drugs" would keep meth heads from having to steal to keep up their habit.
    Most meth heads (and I know a few) are incapable of keeping/working a job. So cheaper meth wouldn't stop people from having to steal to pay for it.

     

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    Larry, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:30am

    Re: meth heads

    Educate self-medicators? You can't fix stupid. That should be plain as day when they go after live wires for the copper, which are mostly steel anyway. Copper coated. I can imagine their last conscious thoughts..."why's my hair standin' up like that, and what's that buzzing.....?"

     

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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:37am

    How does ethernet work in rural areas? I thought ethernet has a ~500 foot distance limit.

     

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    J, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 8:51am

    Ethernet != Twisted Pair

    Ethernet is the way that data is formatted when transmitted over some medium. It can be carried over copper, fiber, wireless, etc. The Chinese operator in the article is probably going to use a wireless ethernet technology (not necessarily wifi) or maybe fiber as it can go further wouldn't be as prone to theft for sale as scrap.

     

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  22.  
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    ConceptJunkie (profile), Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:20am

    Re:

    It was a cheap shot, but to be fair, it's not their job to worry about stupid people getting killed doing stupid things.

    The problem with this country is that too many people are blamed when stupid people get killed doing stupid things _besides_ the stupid people themselves.

    At the rate we are going, we will be legally mandated to swaddle ourselves in bubble wrap before getting out of bed.

    These places are locked for a reason. There are high voltage signs posted for a reason. If you ignore the sign, break in,and die because of it, it's not the fault of the power company or phone company. Of course, try telling that to a shyster lawyer and the jury looking to award the lottery to some Jerry Springer candidate.

     

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  23.  
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    ConceptJunkie (profile), Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:23am

    Re: Re: Good

    Of course, the street crime would come right back once legal drug users had to start paying insurance premiums that reflect the dangers of their drug use.

    Or worse, the U.S. will adopt HillaryCare and we will all haver to pay thousands of dollars more a year to support people's habits.

     

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    Distant Guy, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:27am

    What other kind of eletrocuted is there?

    Fatally electrocuted? As opposed to what? "Wounded by electrocution?" That's like saying a criminal was fatally executed, or someone was fatally murdered. Electrocuted means "to be killed by electricity."

     

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  25.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:39am

    Re: Re: Good

    First of all meth costs less then just about any prescription drug int he world. It's made from house hold chemicals and produced in huge quantities.

    Second, the theft that is involved with meth is NOT due to the expense of purchasing the drug, but due to the fact that it causes the user to become a sociopath with an inability to function in society. These people need a fix, can't hold a job, so steal for it.

    Third, the percentages I claimed are based on the studies conducted by law enforcement agencies and new papers:

    http://www.wweek.com/editorial/3220/7368/
    http://www.mapinc.org/safe/v06/n1290/a02.html
    http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1021/p03s01-usju.htm

    There are other sources, but those were the few I could pull out of Google quickly.

    People who think drug abuse does not have an impact on society are either drug addicts themselves or living in ignorance. All substances that have addictive properties have the potential to influence behavior. The differences are how strongly they alter the persons mental and physical being. Caffeine maybe addictive, but if you take most peoples coffee away they won't shoot you in the head. Now, walk up to a meth head and take it away... making it legal would not help the situation at all.

     

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  26.  
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    piperonal, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:45am

    Re: Re: Good

    Go, Jesse!

    *OF COURSE* this problem would dwindle or disappear if the drugs weren't illegal.

    Prohibition supports artificially high drug prices, and drive the unstoppable market demand underground. Both factors drive theft to support users' habits.

    Most currently illegal drugs would drop in price by a factor of 10-100 if they were decriminalized and sold at cost plus a tax. Their ready availability would drive a rapid Darwinian selection, pushing habitual users either to rehab (supported by tax revenues) or to death. Users *cannot* be changed by external pressure; they must "find their own bottom". High prices merely delay the inevitability of one of these two outcomes.

    I am not unsympathetic to the plight of the addicted, I have friends and family who have been in recovery. It is that experience which has made me so passionately pro-legalization, because it is only through legalization that we can bring addicts to recovery and quit this stupid Puritan posturing.

     

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  27.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 9:46am

    Regarding the telecom operators not caring about people dying - I don't care either. If someone dies trying to steal something of mine, I guess they won't be trying that again...just as long as they don't successfully steal it.

    Regarding the copper content of pre/post 1982 pennies - yes even the post 1982 copper plated ones are selling for more for metal content than the value of the coin.

     

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  28.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 10:05am

    Re: Re: Re: Good

    "Most currently illegal drugs would drop in price by a factor of 10-100 if they were decriminalized and sold at cost plus a tax."

    How do you figure that? Right now the markets are flooded with cheap illegal drugs. Meth costs very little, and a difference of a few dollars won't change the fact that the users are unemployed and have to steal for money.

    This is not a matter of legalizing drugs being a better idea the having them illegal, but rather people like to feel better without restrictions. If meth was legal and sold everywhere, the problem would multiply by a factor several times equal to the amount distributed. If it was not illegal there would be no reason for people not not try it. You may call it "Puritan posturing" but in reality people are far to stupid to make good decisions on their own when it comes to a mind altering substance.

     

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  29.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 10:07am

    Re:

    Wireless!

     

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  30.  
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    jamie martin, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 10:21am

    our office was out of power for a week when somebody vandalized the building to steal all the copper wiring

     

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    WarOtter, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 10:37am

    "At the rate we are going, we will be legally mandated to swaddle ourselves in bubble wrap before getting out of bed."

    I already do this, gives me the extra bounce in my step I need before getting to work, plus it provides hours of stress relaxation all day long. Mmmmmm.... *pop*pop*pop pop*

     

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  32.  
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    Jared, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 10:49am

    Re: Re: Re: Good

    Wow. Both you and the idiot you're supporting have a mind bogglingly stupid position. Legalizing drugs such as meth, crack, marijuana etc is NOT going to solve the problem. Education may make a MINOR dent but it's not an effective prevention mechanism. My entire class and i in school are D.A.R.E graduates so we were all educated about drugs. That did not stop the majority of my class from trying/regularly using some illegal substance. This is all just another facet of the stupid liberal position on crime of not punishing the criminal but trying to "help" them so nobody gets their feelings hurt. A criminal is not a sick freak that needs to be locked up for the rest of their life. Oh no. They're a poor misguided individual that needs help and somehow society is at fault rather than the direct perpetrator. How ridiculous.

    The logic that if the drugs were legal the users would follow a road to rehab or death, while technically true, is faulty in at least one way: You assume that they would just quietly overdose themselves into oblivion in the safety of their own homes. What about the user that slams their car into a busload of schoolchildren in a drug induced stupor and kills one or all of them? Do you really want to add more drugs to the stable alongside alcohol that already creates a plague of idiot drivers killing innocents every day?

     

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    |333173|3|_||3, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:04am

    Stupid people

    If they cannot tell that the door was locke,d the fence was barbed wire, and ther were signs on the doors and windows warning against entry, they atr just nominating themselves fr a darwin award.

     

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  34.  
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    piperonal, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:07am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    Oh Casper--"...but in reality people are far to stupid to make good decisions on their own..."

    So we must legislate, and use our All-Benevolent and Wise Big Brother to protect us, poor stewards that we are of our little lives!

    Until the early 1900's, the government had not yet seen fit to overstep its constitutional bounds and legislate what you could and could not consume. Unsurprisingly, we had relatively little trouble with the supposedly helpless drug-addled.

    Fast-forward to today after a futile 80-year War On Some Drugs (WOSD), and a good portion of Federal prisoners are incarcerated for nothing more than possession or the hazily-defined "possession with intent to distribute".

    The costs are astronomical; just direct costs of the WOSD are about $20B a year, and that ignores the huge costs of imprisonment, police action, lost revenues, and the costs of the drugs themselves--with most of the profits going overseas.

    And yet--the percentage of hard-core addicts refuses to budge. Casual use shifts to substances with less Draconian enforcement; the most common being alcohol and tobacco, by far the most harmful drugs in terms of annual deaths.

    Isn't it funny that Adolf Coors (appropriately named) funds the WOSD? Afraid of competition? Big Tobacco, too.

     

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  35.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    "Do you really want to add more drugs to the stable alongside alcohol that already creates a plague of idiot drivers killing innocents every day?"

    Exactly, people point at alcohol and say "look, it's legal and the world hasn't ended!" The problem with that idea is that alcohol is not as addictive as most illicit drugs and the effects are far more temporary. Look at all the problems drunk drivers cause, they kill more people then the entire war in Iraq. In 2004 there were 16694 drunk driving related fatalities. Of course those same people turn around and say that the drunk driving laws are too harsh because unless they kill someone they have not done anything wrong.

     

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  36.  
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    piperonal, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:19am

    Re: Re: Re: Good

    You're somewhat correct in saying meth is cheap, in terms of dollars/hour high.

    But it's still vastly overpriced compared to its *industrial* production cost.

    Dingy, pollution-spewing home labs typically do a harsh reduction on pseudo-ephedrine with a potent electron donor like lithium hydride--often harvested from LiH batteries.

    The costs are much higher than an industrial process starting with phenyl-2-propanone and methylamine, an order of magnitude or more.

    Then on top of their expensive production, they mark up the price to reflect the street reality of a proscribed substance and its attendant risks.

    Therefore your argument is disingenuous at best. It IS the high cost and black market which drive the crime, not the psychosis of its users. Given a choice, they'd stay home and obsessively clean while picking imaginary scabs--not venture out into the scary demon-face hallucinated public.

     

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  37.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:22am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    Actually drug use was almost nonexistent by the 1950's and was on the decline until the 1960's when it resurged as a form of rebellion. You might want to check your facts before you speak.

    "Casual use shifts to substances with less Draconian enforcement; the most common being alcohol and tobacco, by far the most harmful drugs in terms of annual deaths."

    You also might want to think about the numbers. The number of people using tobacco for extended periods of time vs the number of people using illegal drugs for a long period of time are not comparable.

    Please THINK about your position before posting about it.

     

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  38.  
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    piperonal, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:24am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    "...alcohol is not as addictive as most illicit drugs..."

    You're unfamiliar with alcoholism, I see. As a resident on call in a psychiatric unit, the most severe and life-threatening withdrawals I've seen come from the DT's--delirium tremens, alcohol withdrawal. Untreated they can be fatal.

    There are few illicit drugs with such severe withdrawal, and they've rightly earned a bad reputation with users; barbiturates, for one.

    I challenge you to find the per-dose, per-person, per-year injury and fatality rates for various drugs including alcohol, then argue from a knowledgeable stance.

     

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  39.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:25am

    Re: Sad as it is

    Indeed. China's statement of concern for the value of life is a sick joke. Forced abortions and infanticide vs. electrocution of thieves.

     

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  40.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:26am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    "Therefore your argument is disingenuous at best. It IS the high cost and black market which drive the crime, not the psychosis of its users. Given a choice, they'd stay home and obsessively clean while picking imaginary scabs--not venture out into the scary demon-face hallucinated public."

    So your saying the industrial cost of manufacturing is raised significantly more on the black market then if it were a salable legal product under regulation? You need to get your facts strait. Do you have any idea the costs associated with legal production of a drug that is so high risk? How much do you think it would cost to make it since it is one of the most polluting production processes performed by individuals? How about the taxes that would be placed on it.

    Sorry, your way off base in your argument. Also, if they are home cleaning obsessively, how are they paying for their massive dental bills, let alone the next fix?

     

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  41.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:29am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    "I challenge you to find the per-dose, per-person, per-year injury and fatality rates for various drugs including alcohol, then argue from a knowledgeable stance."

    How many meth addicts do you have come in with withdrawals? Oh wait, they are ELECTROCUTED trying to get their next fix.

    Per person consuming alcohol, the number of alcoholics is very low in comparison to meth users and meth addicts. Think about the difference before you respond.

     

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  42.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:32am

    Re: Re: Re: Good

    not just "substances"

    Online porn and gaming are known to be very addictive and cause sociopathic behavior. Granted I can't see a gaming addict being in the same ballpark as a meth addict.

    However, addicted is addicted.

     

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  43.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:35am

    Re: Re: Re: Good

    Puritan != prohibition
    You are mixing personal choice with forced (legislated) morality.
    As an example, I am a puritan but am against all government use of "this is for your own good" laws.

     

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  44.  
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    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 11:39am

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    "in reality people are far to stupid to make good decisions on their own when it comes to a mind altering substance."
    That is why I choose education over legalization. I am more against the state serving as the moral authority since I became a parent. Primarily I realize it is my duty to properly raise my kids and to depend on a life of choices limited only by what the state has determined legality to be... well that is a recipe for disaster.

    That said, there is a universe of difference between my viewpoint and that of someone engaging in illegal activity just because they don't like it. I work within the system, I don't subvert it.

     

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  45.  
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    Casper, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 12:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    My point is that the substance makes the person incapable of self regulation. No matter how educated they are, many of the drugs physically alter their brain chemistry to the point they can no longer reason adequately.

     

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  46.  
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    Old Guy, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 12:09pm

    Re: Price of Copper

    Inflation is a fact of life...controlling the rate is the key.
    As far as Fed notes...They are controlled by a private banking concern, not the Federal Gov't. As a matter of fact the gov't has little or no control over what the Fed does. Don't believe me...check out the Fed's open website

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm

    As long as bankers are allowed to print money and actually have a major direct effect on the economy, we'll get screwed.

     

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  47.  
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    norman619, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 12:09pm

    What's the problem?

    I have no pitty for the idsiots who knowingly risk their lives doing something very stupid. They knew the risks going in and decided to throw the dice. I thought this article was going to be how the rising price of copper is impacting undistires. I do IT for an automotive company and OMG it's kicking our butts. It's taking a huge bite out of our proffits. We are looking at possible layoffs. Who cares if a few Junkies and Theives (smameless plug) die trying to steal copper cable?

     

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  48.  
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    Dewy, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 1:29pm

    Re: What's the problem?

    Well, there is their families... they probably care, as I'm sure their dealer and the recycler they were going to use. Not to mention the NET team or local enforcement agencies who won't get to use these particular drug addicts to boost their revenue or vote totals this year.

    But of this crowd of humanitarians... you stand out not giving a damn about a fellow human being. We're all in awe of you ability to put your inconvenience above the welfare of fellow humans.

     

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  49.  
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    Dewy, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 1:32pm

    Re: Re: Price of Copper

    Amen... but you do know re-implementing the gold standard will deprive the wealthy of most of their wealth?

    However shall they continue to reign over the worker caste without credit debt and worthless currency?

     

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  50.  
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    ConceptJunkie (profile), Apr 4th, 2007 @ 1:39pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    Addicted is addicted and it probably means that person is not a productive member of society, which means everyone else pays to take care of him.

    A gaming addict probably won't end up code blue in an emergency room somewhere, but if he's on the dole or homeless because of his addiction, it's still a huge expense for society.

     

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  51.  
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    Dewy, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 1:40pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    such as meth, crack, marijuana etc
    ...........................................................

    Isn't that like saying Hand grenades, landmines and snap-n-pops?

    legalizing marijuana should not be tied into the debate with legalizing DANGEROUS drugs. I am all for personal choice... but we don't need DuPont making a cheaper form of crack...

    These "drugs" need to be regulated... some are only dangerous if you have a 100lb bale dropped on your head. Others change the brain chemistry, and could be exploited in a "free market" to the detriment of the consumer. Very different from "freedom of choice".

    There's a reason can't you make a Drink with Caustic acid... oh wait... we do that already...

    There's a reason you can't produce dangerous drugs in greater quantities than needed... wait, we do that too... All of those folks abusing oxycontin aren't making it in their bathtub.

    Yeah, I guess it is a War on Some drugs... the ones we can't tax.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  52.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:03pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    I'll pretend you are not a troll, sir.

    Your logic is flawed because you fail to factor in redundancies and the rule of law.

    Some respect the rule of law and would like to see it stronger.

    If addict Joe slams a car into someone, A) he is not likely to care about legality, and B) because of existing laws will face punishment from the legal system.

    Perhaps instead of adding more laws, we should have stronger and fewer ones. Its like with gun laws... why add more when the judicial system refuses to enforce the ones we already have?

    Plus there is the argument that factors in both effectiveness and efficiency. How effective is the war on drugs? How efficient is the war on drugs?
    Next, take a step back and exchange "drugs" with "alcohol"... so how did that work out? What crime resulted from that experiment? Organized crime... thanks congressmen! Great job!

    Lets just learn from history, please.

    This message brought to you by someone who CHOOSES not to drink or use any chemical substances. But does eat red meat... when will that become illegal for my "protection"?

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  53.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:13pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    Ummm, if most of your class did drugs after education... does that not logically imply that the legality of those said drugs didn't factor in?

    Oh, and since when was the justice department's mission or mandate that of reformation? No, it is punishment as it should be.

    This is not some text book discussion of liberal vs. conservative. You are going to HAVE to use your own brain and think this thing through.

    I personally am for victim rights and severely punishing criminals. However, (and perhaps because of that) I don't believe we should be defining what makes one a criminal based upon their own protection. That is liberal ideology that conservatives have adopted as their own.

    If a user wrecks a vehicle then get them for DUI and wreckless driving. If they assault someone then get them for assault.

    Drug laws and the constitution side-stepping enforcement tactics they use are as pointless as hate crime laws.

    Like most big government liberal ideology, the reformation of drug users should be the ward of church and other organizations... not the state. Why are we arresting kids for smoking dope and then ruining their entire lives while some child molestor gets out on parole to rape again?

    No sir, I will not allow my children to be prey. I will not forgo my responsibility as a parent to the state and become another lazy parent saying, "but look, its already taken care of by the laws"

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  54.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:16pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    Coors... please say who that is or I will wrongly assume you refer to the gun control company known as Coors. Or am I right? AAAAAGH the pressure!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  55.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:25pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    the same can be said of people who let themselves fly into a rage... the effects are violent. Perhaps we should regulate "anger". That sounds good at first until you realize that most anger is not bad when you allow yourself to deal with it in a healthy way.

    When you point out that substance abuse renders an individual incapable of self regulation... I agree with you 100%
    However, I should add that logically the legality of their actions and choices will then not factor in at all.
    Oh and yes, I DO believe these people need help... I just don't think the state is the one to do it. If they, under the influence of anything at all, commit a crime then you severely punish them for that crime.

    Then again, I am in favor of forced castration of child molesters.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  56.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:27pm

    Re: Re: Price of Copper

    Agreed.

    Remember that it is banks today that have built a business model out of slavery. AKA Debt.
    Debt brokers are one of the largest industries in the U.S. I do not trust banks any more than I trust defense attorneys.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  57.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 2:32pm

    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good

    I have a friend that argues that bike helmet laws are good because they reduce the amount of tax dollars paid towards bike accidents.

    I bring up the point that perhaps we should fight the real enemy and that is welfare. The discussion ends there.

    The same can be said for seat belt laws.

    BTW, this concerns adults only. Children need to be protected from stupid parents.

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  58.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Apr 4th, 2007 @ 7:52pm

    Re:

    i think that because people are getting electrocuted it doesnt matter either way

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  59.  
    identicon
    Brian, Apr 11th, 2007 @ 7:59am

    My story wins!

    I win. Nobody's going to beat this copper-theft story, and it's recent!

    http://www.nola.com/newslogs/tpupdates/index.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_tpupdates/archives/2006_12_ 14.html#215784

    ...just a teaser paragraph:

    "Addison also said he didn’t get the urns directly from the cemetery. Instead, he told deputies he took them from Delaune, who grabbed them from the cemetery"
    (in other words, he's not a grave-robber. He's just a thief. Grave-robbing would be wrong.)

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  60.  
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, Jun 4th, 2007 @ 8:12pm

    Re: Price of Copper

    Have you seen the price of nickle lately? 22.50 per lb.

    OUCH!

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  61.  
    identicon
    Gomez, Nov 15th, 2008 @ 2:50am

    Re: Re: Price of Copper

    oh ..! I have read thee above comments as i am in another country can i know the copper price in your country ? because i have planned to start a business to import copper in your country seriously ..ha..ha..ha ********* Gomez oregon drug rehab

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

  62.  
    identicon
    Gomez, Nov 15th, 2008 @ 2:56am

    copper Prize

    If the copper is demand in your country you can gift the copper to your loved one...how is the idea...? *********** Gomez oregon drug rehab

     

    reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]


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