Pinterest's Way Of Dealing With Anti-Vax Nonsense And Scams Is Only Possible Because Of Section 230

from the experimentation-wins dept

A key argument by many who are advocating for getting rid of Section 230 is that various internet platforms need to "take more responsibility" or have some sort of "duty of care," to rid their platforms of malicious content (however that's defined). I even heard one staunch anti-Section 230 advocate complain vocally that internet services "aren't experimenting enough" with policing their platforms. The argument that there's not enough experimentation struck me as quite odd -- because if you look around, there's actually a ton of experimentation going on in platform moderation methods and techniques. And, even more weird, is that most of this experimentation is only possible because of Section 230.

Take the case of Pinterest. While Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Amazon have all struggled with ways to deal with the influx of utter nonsense -- much of which is actively dangerous -- Pinterest earlier this year announced that it was taking a hardline stance against anti-vax nonsense, banning it from the site, as best it could.

Pinterest has responded by building a “blacklist” of “polluted” search terms.

“We are doing our best to remove bad content, but we know that there is bad content that we haven’t gotten to yet,” explained Ifeoma Ozoma, a public policy and social impact manager at Pinterest. “We don’t want to surface that with search terms like ‘cancer cure’ or ‘suicide’. We’re hoping that we can move from breaking the site to surfacing only good content. Until then, this is preferable.”

Pinterest also includes health misinformation images in its “hash bank”, preventing users from re-pinning anti-vaxx memes that have already been reported and taken down. (Hashing is a technology that applies a unique digital identifier to images and videos; it has been more widely used to prevent the spread of child abuse images and terrorist content.)

And the company has banned all pins from certain websites.

“If there’s a website that is dedicated in whole to spreading health misinformation, we don’t want that on our platform, so we can block on the URL level,” Ozoma said.

That was at the beginning of the year. And now, Pinterest is trying to fill the nonsense void with credible information instead. Rather than just blocking all of the nonsense, it has decided to replace it with credible information:

On Wednesday, Pinterest announced a new step in its efforts to combat health misinformation on its platform: users will be able to search for 200 terms related to vaccines, but the results displayed will come from major public health organizations, including the World Health Organization (WHO), Centers for Disease Control, American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) and Vaccine Safety Net.

The platform will also bar advertisements, recommendations and comments on those pages.

“It was really important for us to make sure that this experience doesn’t allow any misinformation to seep in,” said Ifeoma Ozoma, public policy and social impact manager for Pinterest. “You’re not going to end up in a situation where you click on a trustworthy pin and the recommendations or comments are full of misinformation.”

This is certainly not a panacea. Indeed, it's not even that hard to still find vaccine misinformation on Pinterest if you look hard enough. And, there's certainly a risk of over-blocking in this area as well. For example if someone were countering disinformation about vaccines, it's possible that they could accidentally get swept up in the mess as well. Also, not all information is so obviously bullshit. I've seen anti-vaxxers misrepresent legitimate studies as supporting their position -- so how do you handle legitimate reports that are being misrepresented? It quickly becomes difficult (as we've discussed in many previous posts).

However, the key thing here is that this is how Pinterest has decided to deal with this problem. It's the way in which this one platform has decided to approach things on a problem that it sees with the spread of, often dangerous, myths about vaccinations (and, just a heads up: don't even think of spreading more anti-vax nonsense in the comments, because you're not just wrong and ignorant, but you're actively harming people).

But the key thing here is that Pinterest is able to experiment this way because Section 230 protects its choices. Section 230 allows platforms like Pinterest to experiment and try different approaches. And that's important for a variety of reasons. More experimentation means more ideas and more tests of what actually works. It also allows for a recognition that every platform is different. The content that is on Pinterest is different than the content on YouTube or Reddit or Amazon or Twitter, and Section 230 lets them craft a unique policy and implement it how they see fit to best deal with their own platform and their own community.

Nearly all of the proposals to chip away at Section 230 would limit or block entirely this kind of experimentation -- meaning we'd all end up significantly worse off in the long run. It's one thing for people to simply demand that platforms take more responsibility -- but when the people making those demands are simultaneously trying to take away the tools that allow the companies to actually experiment with how best to take more responsibility, that's when problems come in.

Filed Under: anti-vax, cda 230, content moderation, section 230, vaccines
Companies: pinterest


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  • identicon
    Haggie, 4 Sep 2019 @ 12:22pm

    Block Pinterest

    Now I wish Google would block Pinterest and replace it in search results "with credible information"

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 12:40pm

      Re: Block Pinterest

      Like what? More credible info on shoes someone liked or...? Are you asserting someone really didn't like those shoes, and they pinned a pic of them for some ulterior purpose?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        ANANONANA, 4 Sep 2019 @ 1:58pm

        Re: Re: Block Pinterest

        Well, paid influencers are definitely a thing on Pinterest and they are not always good about announcing the fact that they got payment or freebies.

        That said, still no reason to kick Pinterest off Google...

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:50pm

        Re: Re: Block Pinterest

        Like what? More credible info on shoes someone liked or...?

        Frankly, yes. Those shoes were most definitely NOT made for walking.

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    • icon
      Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:43am

      Re: Block Pinterest

      Or at the very least, if Google's going to show results from pinterest in its tesults, to not allow the site to hold those images hostage.

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:18pm

    myths vs. side effects

    Are you saying that the adverse reactions listed in the package inserts are myths?

    Are you saying it is good to block a video of a person reading off the package inserts?

    Are you saying that there are no adverse reactions; this is a myth?

    Are you denying the billions paid out by the federal court set up for that purpose; this is a myth?

    Are you saying that the videos showing normal persons before and abnormal persons after are a myth?

    Are you saying it is good to block a video of a child before and after?

    Are you saying it is good to block a lawyer talking to people?

    Are you really saying that these biologics have to be tested like other medicines?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:27pm

      Re: Ignorance is a side effect.

      Yes and/or no. Apply as appropriate.

      You are welcome bro.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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      icon
      JdL (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:30pm

      Re: myths vs. side effects

      Mr. Masnick is an example of that curious modern species, a human who most of the time seems perfectly rational, but who, at the mention of vaccines and any possible uncertainty regarding them becomes a raving lunatic.

      For anyone who wants a balanced view, here's a good start: https://drmalcolmkendrick.org/2019/07/29/a-second-look-at-vaccination-answers-that-cannot-be-questio ned/

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:40pm

        Re: Re: myths vs. side effects

        “but who, at the mention of vaccines and any possible uncertainty regarding them becomes a raving lunatic.”

        So much projection in one sentence.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:46pm

        Re: Re: myths vs. side effects

        Found the antivaxer

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 1:09am

        Re: Re: myths vs. side effects

        "the mention of vaccines and any possible uncertainty"

        There is no "possible uncertainty". There is no link between vaccines and autism, and vaccines are proven to be far less risky than allowing herd immunity to decrease. Your child is at far greater risk from the effects a measles outbreak or polio returning than they ever could be from getting vaccinated.

        "For anyone who wants a balanced view"

        I'm not clicking on the link, but who is this "rational" fellow?

        "Kendrick dislikes the medical community and argues against the use of statins.[3][4] Kendrick is associated with the pseudoscientific Institute for Natural Healing. He is a leading figure in the cholesterol denialist movement"

        Oh.... So, another bullshit artist taking over from Andrew Wakefield after his con lost all credibility. Got it...

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    icon
    JdL (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:25pm

    Thanks so much for your intolerance!

    The author outs himself as an rabid anti-anti-vaxer, apparently labeling any questioning of the efficacy or potential risks associated with a vaccination as automatically "nonsense". It must be swell to be so all-knowing! As for freedom of speech, well, it's fine, as long as the author and his friends deem its content "not dangerous".

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    • identicon
      Chip, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:29pm

      Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

      When I "read" your Posts i can Never tell if your "for Real" or one of those fke Accounts where people say "stupid" Things to be "ironic". and SATIRICAL!

      Every Nation eats the Paint chips it Deservs!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:49pm

      Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

      Nobody is saying vaccines come without risks. However, those risks are the lesser of the two evils, one being the risks of the vaccine, the other being the risk of contracting whatever the vaccine prevents.

      There should be a country, say Tuvalu, where all the antivaxers can move and share their diseases with one another instead of the rest of society.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 5:48am

        Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

        Preferably after the islanders who currently live there have been evacuated due to climate change. Then the climate change deniers can move in with the ant-vaxxers.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 2:53pm

      Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

      The author outs himself as an rabid anti-anti-vaxer, apparently labeling any questioning of the efficacy or potential risks associated with a vaccination as automatically "nonsense".

      If there were credible information to back up the anti-vax position, you'd have a point. There is not. There is none. There is junk science, conmen, and scams. And believing in such nonsense is literally killing people. If, at some point, credible information is put forth about harms from vaccines, then that would be interesting. To date they don't exist. To date there are just rabid idiots spewing nonsense. Don't be one of them.

      I'm all for free speech, but I'm not for forcing platforms to host nonsense that kills people.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Paul Brinker, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:08pm

        Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

        Don't forget that there are kids going around asking for vaccinations behind their parents backs. Kids better understand whats going on and really just do not want to die when a measles outbreak hits their area.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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          identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:25pm

          Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

          Are you saying that package inserts are not credible?
          Are you saying that parents and children are not credible?
          Are you saying that VAERS is not credible?
          Are you saying that the evidence in Vaccine court is not credible?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Matthew Cline (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:36pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

            Are you saying that package inserts are not credible?

            The warnings in the package inserts don't mean that any of them are likely to happen, or a person receiving a vaccine is likely to get any of them.

            Are you saying that parents and children are not credible?

            The problem isn't their credibility, but 1) just because X happened after a vaccination doesn't mean that it was caused by that vaccination, 2) signs of X (like autism) manifesting before a vaccination but the parents either not noticing or not realizing what the signs were, and 3) the fallible nature of human memory.

            Are you saying that VAERS is not credible?

            Are you saying that the evidence in Vaccine court is not credible?

            1) IIRC, the standard of evidence in a VAERS hearing is different than that of a normal court.

            2) The various times that VAERS has sided with the plaintiffs doesn't indicate that vaccines are more dangerous than doctors claim they are, nor does it indicate that (for example) vaccines cause autism.

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            • icon
              Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:32am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

              the standard of evidence in a VAERS hearing is different than that of a normal court.

              As in: None

              As long as the claim is that the "injury" is proximally caused by a vaccine, it will be accepted. No verification needed to get a payout.
              Tgere are credible claims that antivaxxers are deliberately filing false claims in order to bump up VAERS's bogus numbers to make it look scarier.

              But only cognitively nonfunctional useful idiots like AC would cite VAERS as evidence.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 4:56pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your idiocy!

            How many times are you going to cut and paste stupid questions bro?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 1:53pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

            FYI this is not an attempt to get the original poster to understand why the are wrong (since I expect that one to be running on willful ignorance and thus will ignore any counterpoints) but to show others that are still on the fence the kind of snake oil people like the original poster are trying sell them and why.

            Are you saying that package inserts are not credible?

            Not in the way the you Nurgle cultists are portraying it (And yes you are a death cultist promoting disease by not getting vaccinated, not getting your kids vaccinated and/or trying to get rid of vaccines).
            Which is selective application. You look at that list and go look at all the horrible things that will happen when you get a vaccine. Then take/give a Tylenol which has a just as scary list of possible side effects and don't even bother to read the insert since nothing on the list will ever apply to you or your family.
            To put it a bit more succinctly a fair application of your complete overreaction to the insert coming with a vaccine would mean total rejection of any medicine.

            Are you saying that parents and children are not credible?

            An anecdote is not data. The plural of anecdote is still not data. So yes they are not credible, especially since confirmation bias comes into play with parents.
            It is why scientists use a whole host of statistical techniques to not just find correlation but causation.
            They need to do it that way since it is plainly unethical to deliberately not vaccinate people seeing how effective vaccination is in preventing people getting infected by the disease the vaccination works against. So we can't do a control group that is deliberately not vaccinated to just study this non-problem for 20 years.

            Are you saying that VAERS is not credible?

            Well unless you consider people becoming the Hulk, Wonderwoman or get any other superhero transformation (the correct word seeing that mutations happen during conceiving a child) as credible. Or dying/get seriously injured in vehicular accidents by being the victim of someone else hitting you.
            Side effect of anyone being able to put in anything without it being checked.

            Are you saying that the evidence in Vaccine court is not credible?

            Bingo. We've got a winner here. The vaccine court is not a criminal court where it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Even a hint of possible damage/being hurt is enough to get reimbursed. Is way cheaper then having to slog through the same amount of court cases.
            What I do remember is that autism spectrum disorder related injuries don't get reimbursed as a result of the Omnibus Autism Proceeding.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              PaulT (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 12:29am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

              "An anecdote is not data."

              Especially since the anecdote is based on nothing more than assumption. Yes, your child has a vaccination and they showed signs of autism - but beyond the timing there's no evidence they were related. I ate a peanut butter sandwich as a teenager, and the next day showed the first signs of gout, a condition that's followed my throughout my life. That doesn't mean that gout is caused by peanut butter sandwiches!

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      • icon
        Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:46am

        Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

        It'll be really hard to take any antivax claims at face value until there exists at least one of them that is nonfraudulent in origin.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:56am

          Re: Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

          In fact...

          • factually unsupported claims of harm

          • inane assertions of supposed "rights" being violate

          • big-money propaganda apparatus with legions of both paid liars and useful idiots

          Are all true of both anti-vax and anti-Net Neutrality.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rocky, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:20pm

      Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

      Funny you would mention the word rabid. The only way to protect someone from rabies is to vaccinate, but anti-vaxers refuse to vaccinate which means the word rabid fits them better, both figuratively and sometimes literally.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        John Roddy (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:54pm

        Re: Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

        ACK-SHULLY, there is a new method for treating rabies: shut off the brain. Seriously, that is an actual real thing that has actually really had some success. It's stupendously dangerous, obviously, but has managed to punch a small hole in the near-100% death rate of infected victims who start showing symptoms.

        That being said, it's only effective if the brain is shut off DURING treatment, not before hand. So this particular thread's OP is getting a bit too far ahead of himself.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 5 Sep 2019 @ 6:28pm

        Re: protect someone from rabies is to vaccinate

        Rabies is an interesting one, because you can vaccinate someone even after they’ve become infected, if you get them soon enough. The die-a-horribly-painful-death stage only happens once the disease spreads to the nervous system, and if the vaccine can get there first, you’re saved.

        Greetings from NZ, currently suffering a spreading measles outbreak and grappling with our own sources of disinformation.

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    • icon
      techflaws (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 10:00pm

      Re: Thanks so much for your intolerance!

      You fucking assclowns already have BLOOD ON YOUR HANDS. How much more does it gonna take to finally believe in what the science shows?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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    identicon
    barbat, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:23pm

    "anti vaxx" is not nonsense. Consent and freedom to choose is not nonsense. Conversely, demonizing the other side for not agreeing with your stance is called PROPAGANDA. This anti-vaxx persecution is going to have a streisand effect very soon.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Rocky, 4 Sep 2019 @ 3:58pm

      Re:

      When someones choice not to vaccinate creates life-and-death situations for a lot of other people I find the anti-vaxxers complaint about "consent and freedom" extremely hypocritical. It's very easy, if you exhibit dangerous behavior that threatens society at large I'm afraid your "consent and freedom" will be curtailed.

      WHO has listed anti-vaxxers as one of the top-ten most significant threats to health on the planet. I just hope the anti-vaxxers don't cause too much collateral damage before they remove themselves from the human gene-pool if they persist to behave like irresponsible morons.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 11:33pm

        Re: Re:

        "It's very easy, if you exhibit dangerous behavior that threatens society at large I'm afraid your "consent and freedom" will be curtailed."

        Does this mean we are taking away the democratic vote or are we going to let them vote Trump in again?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 5 Sep 2019 @ 6:29pm

          Re: taking away the democratic vote

          Ummm ... which candidate won the democratic vote last time?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 1:36am

            Re: Re: taking away the democratic vote

            Ummm...Queen Elizabeth?

            "What is a democratic vote?
            In a democracy, a government is chosen by voting in an election: a way for an electorate to elect, i.e. choose, among several candidates for rule. In a representative democracy voting is the method by which the electorate appoints its representatives in its government."

            "Eugene Volokh of the UCLA School of Law notes that the United States exemplifies the varied nature of a constitutional republic—a country where some decisions (often local) are made by direct democratic processes, while others (often federal) are made by democratically elected representatives."

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 4:58pm

      Re: the vaccine against ignorance is knowledge

      I count at least six words you don’t know the meaning of bro.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    cattress (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 4:17pm

    Freedom to choose

    As a libertarian, I support your freedom to choose whether to be vaccinated, or abstain from entering any place of public accommodation. To be a member of society, like any group, you trade off certain things for that membership. Society demands that in most situations you wear clothing and do not have an offensive odor. These things are not really negotiable, but are open to some interpretation. Don't like wearing pants? Like the smell of your unwashed feet? Refuse to get a couple of proven effective shots to prevent the potential spread of deadly illness to the most vulnerable members of society? That's fine, I don't want to force anything on you. But you cant force the rest of us to look at your hairy ass, smell your rank feet, or accept a completely unnecessary risk to the well-being of our kids.

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    • icon
      Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 4:47pm

      Re: Freedom to choose

      "But you cant force the rest of us to look at your hairy ass, smell your rank feet, or accept a completely unnecessary risk to the well-being of our kids."

      But it's OK to spread disease that could have been controlled via the vaccination to the rest of society. I personally don't know enough about the vaccination issue to know whether they are bad or good but I do think there is a possibility that drug manufacturers push their products for the sake of profit rather than efficacy, but I don't think the question should be over ideology rather than societal good.

      If and when some vaccines are proven to have significant deleterious effects then those individual vaccines should be called into question (rather than the entire process of vaccination), along with the proceedings the FDA used to approve them. And, in the end, if there are issues with certain vaccines, it should be the FDA that should be excoriated, along with the particular manufacturers, not the rest of society.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        cattress (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 9:34pm

        Re: Re: Freedom to choose

        I might have been some what unclear. I feel that if you wish to be a part of society, then you have to get vaccinated. If you feel getting vaccinated is too great a risk, or for whatever reason, refuse to be vaccinated, then you can go live on a compound some where, or with whatever fringe society will have you. You are free to choose which life you want to lead. You are not free to impose an unnecessary risk on the rest of us.
        And there's plenty of reason to be skeptical of drug companies, especially with the revelations from Purdue pharma. But we should be worried about vaccines and preventative treatments being suppressed; drug companies make way less if we don't get sick.
        Oh, and those manufacturer "warning" slips that come with vaccines are mostly just litigation ass coverage. My prenatal vitamins came with pages of warnings. So does my heartburn medicine. Anyone notice how drug commercials legal jargon advises people to inform their doctor of every conceivable medical condition that said doctor should either already be aware of, or asking about before writing a prescription? I mean, anyone who has ever gone to a doctor knows you have to fill out pages and pages of medical history before you even see an exam room. Ass coverage. Even headache medicine warns that it may cause a headache!

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        • icon
          nasch (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:29am

          Re: Re: Re: Freedom to choose

          I don't think you could craft a law that prohibits unvaccinated people from being out in public that would pass constitutional scrutiny. I would favor laws requiring vaccination to register for public school though.

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          • icon
            Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:39am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: Freedom to choose

            I don't think you could craft a law that prohibits unvaccinated people from being out in public that would pass constitutional scrutiny.

            Except for laws allowing exactly that have been upheld on the books for centuries...

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      • icon
        rkhalloran (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 7:26am

        Re: Re: Freedom to choose

        SImple math: you get vaccinated once as a kid, maybe a booster as a teen. Pharma's not making any big money on that; consider the chronic medications like insulin, blood thinners, cholesterol meds etc that you have to take EVERY FREAKIN' DAY, there's the vector for price gouging.

        Yes, some people have bad reactions to vaccines, the percentage is exceptionally small. The benefit to society in general greatly outweighs this. The anti-vaxxers touting how few people die of the classic childhood diseases don't count in the much more frequent (but still slight) neurological problems, blindness, male sterility from mumps, etc etc. Dodging the question by focusing only on the worst possible outcome frankly proves the moral bankruptcy of their position.

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 5:34pm

    Has any of you ever read a manufacturers slip to a vaccine????

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Matthew Cline (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 5:38pm

      Re:

      Has any of you ever read a manufacturers slip to a vaccine????

      They list all of the things the might happen, without listing the chance of each happening. The chance of the more serious side effects is really quite low.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 7:38pm

      Re:

      Yes. Then I took the vaccine because having nearly no universal side effects and a vanishingly rare chance of serious side effects, is better than accidentally helping infect and possibly cripple an infant because I am a selfish, paranoid, idiotic, asshole.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 7:42am

      Re:

      Has any of you ever read a manufacturers slip to a vaccine????

      Yeah, the product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm (e.g. water).

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 6:35pm

    I recall the time when John Smith's "anti-230 screed of the day" was "Section 230 enables anti-vaxxers".

    Wotta maroon!

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    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 7:01pm

    They don't do long term double blind Inert placebo studies with vaccines so how could you possibly know what the risks vs benefits are????

    For example the Hep B vaccine the safety review was 4 days and no placebo..... what are the side effects 6 months later or one year later?

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 7:26pm

      Re:

      "Everyone who's ever been vaccinated will eventually die. Just let that sink in!"

      /s

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 7:34pm

      Re: how could you possibly know what the risks vs benefits are?

      Polio vs no polio.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:12pm

        Re: Re: how could you possibly know what the risks vs benefits a

        What are the risk from the vaccine???? The safety study was 48 hours and they compaired it to DPT..... DPT is banned in the US because it harmed so many children.... Also, what's the risk of the vaccine compared to the possibility of getting polio..... Do you know you can get poilio and be fine...... Do you know the chances of getting polio?

        Are you familiar with the cutter incident?... And, Cutter was not the only manufacturer that messed up.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:23pm

          Do you know the chances of getting polio?

          A hell of a lot lower than the number was before the polio vaccine existed, I assume.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:45pm

          Re: how could you possibly accept kids with polio

          In the USA 0% thanks to vaccines. Same with measles until recently... As far as your other questions, ask someone who has polio. You’ll be able to find them easily enough if you go to an Orthotist and look for the person with the exoskeleton braces up to their hips.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      nasch (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:43am

      Re:

      For example the Hep B vaccine the safety review was 4 days and no placebo.

      4 years, not 4 days. And there's no need to give a placebo to newborns.

      https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/vaccines/hepatitis-b-vaccine.html

      Risks of the polio vaccine are minimal.

      https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-details/polio-vaccin e

      The safety study was 48 hours

      Reference for that?

      Do you know you can get poilio and be fine.

      Yes, you can. There's also a small chance you could be paralyzed for life, or die. You can play Russian roulette and be fine too.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:54am

        Re: Re:

        "4 years, not 4 days. And there's no need to give a placebo to newborns."

        An anti-vaxxer lies and fails to understand basic scientific logic? What a shock!

        "There's also a small chance you could be paralyzed for life, or die. You can play Russian roulette and be fine too."

        Nobody who's been around polio would ever be so cavalier about it, even if they are suffering from survivors' bias. It's actually sickening seeing people trying to play with the lives of their children and others like this (full disclosure: I have an uncle who had polio as a kid. Yes, he survived but he also completely lost use of his right arm).

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    icon
    restless94110 (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 7:40pm

    Nonsense

    Any writer who would include "Anti-vax nonsense" in the title of his article, has already made it clear that he has nothing of any value to say.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:04pm

    The big question is who is healthier the vaccinated or the unvaccinated??? Look at the study that Peter Abby did. The unvaccinated are healthier..... look at the Pilot comparative study on the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated 6- to 12- year old U.S. children

    Anthony R Mawson

    I could go on for days with studies. ... the vaccinated are sicker.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:47pm

      Re: Even if not...

      “I could go on for days with studies”

      If they are as good as the one that linked vaccines with autism. I think we are gonna have to be a hard no on that one bro.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      John Roddy (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:50pm

      Do these studies account for the people who are dead because they caught the disease the vaccine prevents? Surely that's relevant.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 9:13pm

      Re: doors that way ——>

      The study Mawson did got retracted bro. So again unless you have anything better than Wakefield’s garbage...

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Mike Masnick (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 10:54pm

      Re:

      The big question is who is healthier the vaccinated or the unvaccinated??? Look at the study that Peter Abby did. The unvaccinated are healthier..... look at the Pilot comparative study on the health of vaccinated and unvaccinated 6- to 12- year old U.S. children

      Anthony R Mawson

      Um. Nope. https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/no-two-studies-purporting-to-show-that-vaccinated-children-are-sick er-than-unvaccinated-children-show-nothing-of-the-sort/

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 5:25am

      Re:

      Anthony R Mawson

      I could go on for days with studies. ... the vaccinated are sicker.

      Which of his two retracted studies are you going to go on with, dumbass?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 5:45am

        Re: Re:

        The silver lining is that these idiots are providing some new frauds to debunk, rather than having to repeat the same truths about Wakefield every time. That helps pass the time until they cause a serious outbreak that kills enough kids to finally scare some sense into them...

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          That One Guy (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 7:19am

          Re: Re: Re:

          I suspect you vastly overestimate their intelligence, I'm sure they'd find some other excuse for the dead kids that doesn't involve facing the fact that they were responsible due to their action/inaction.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 12:25am

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            Even if you can't get through to this generation of idiots, their kids will come around once they see how their peers are suffering from the diseases their parents were vaccinated against, and start vaccinating both themselves and their own children. Hopefully, anyway.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              That One Guy (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 4:46am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              While I don't know how common it is(hopefully 'very'), I remember listening to a teenager asking for advice in how to effectively bypass their parents and get their vaccinations in spite of their parents' opposition to them, as while their parents may be been duped the teenager at least had seen through the plague-protectionist bullshit and wasn't looking to add themselves to the 'infected by an easily preventable disease' statistics.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 9:21am

          Re: Re: Re:

          Antivaxxers really don't have a leg to stand on. No matter what happens, it'll always be something else, because faith cannot be wrong.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 1:01pm

            Re: Re: Re: Re:

            “Antivaxxers really don't have a leg to stand on.”

            If they get their way, that will literally be true.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              PaulT (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 12:23am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

              What's sad is - no, it won't. Those morons were vaccinated when they were kids. It's the kids of these people, and those around them who they've placed at greater risk, who will needlessly suffer.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:15pm

    How many people get cancer from vaccines???
    How many people get infertility from a vaccine???

    O, that's right the company does not know because it was never tested..... If the safety review is only a few days or a few weeks then you never know how many individuals will get cancer from the vaccines.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 10:14pm

      Re:

      Maybe if you clowns stopped focusing on the couple of debunked studies that support your point of view and looked at the actual scientific research on vaccines you would have you questions answered. If not go to a polio patient and ask them if the risks are worth it. Or ask a mother who’s child got encephalitis from Rubella. Or a father who can’t take their immunity compromised child anywhere in public because idiots like you might have measles and kill the kid stone cold dead.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:42am

      Re:

      [Asserts facts not in evidence]

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      cattress (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 11:41pm

      Re:

      If I believed that vaccines went through little to no scientific scrutiny, as you are posing here, I wouldn't get them either. What makes you think that vaccines don't under go rigorous testing, based on universally agreed upon scientific methods? I mean, I get skepticism of Big Pharma. Do you think they lie about clinical results, fake their research? Why would they take such a risk? Much easier to tweek the formula of a successful drug for a patent extension with none of the risk of committing fraud. And the level of conspiracy needed to pull off such a plot? Too many people, it would never work. Are you being serious, or just trolling? Im not trying to be rude or insulting, but have you really thought about how ridiculous the premise that giant drug companies have never done safety studies, and yet haven't been sued out of existence; instead, doctors who save the lives of babies emphatically market their products without any compensation, and loving, caring , intelligent parents choose to have their precious babies injected with an untested product? None of that seems remotely possible to me.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2019 @ 8:25pm

    Wow! It appears that the anti-vaxxers have their own russian troll factory considering the number of comments in this article from these nut jobs.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • icon
    NOYFUB (profile), 4 Sep 2019 @ 9:26pm

    RE all the RE's

    Scientist determined along time ago, that living on the planet Earth is hazardous to ones health.
    And 99% of all species that have existed on this planet, have gone extinct.
    I'll stay in the control group and see what happens.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    • icon
      PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 5:43am

      Re: google search images of vaccine-injured children

      So, what you're saying is that you have no actual source for the claim you just made, and want to shock people with graphic images rather than risk having your claims debunked?

      Should I respond with graphic photos of children being needlessly maimed by preventable diseases because some idiots won't vaccinate theirs?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 6:48am

        Re: Re: google search images of vaccine-injured children

        I think I'll file his shock value next to the collection of images of pornstars hurt by piracy.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:04am

          Re: Re: Re: google search images of vaccine-injured children

          Well, I wasn't going to click on something like that, and it wouldn't surprised me if the anti-vaxxers had mislabeled or doctored some images of something else to fake support for their claims. It's good to know if this isn't the case.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2019 @ 8:58am

            Re: Re: Re: Re: google search images of vaccine-injured children

            Oh, I didn't bother clicking them.

            It does bring to mind, though, cases where Nigerian 419 scammers used photographs of actually diseased people in their emails to make their "plights" look more convincing. You know... just in case you thought they weren't already despicable enough.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Toom1275 (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 9:03am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: google search images of vaccine-injured chil

              More like PETA using a plastic bloody lamb to protest wool.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              PaulT (profile), 5 Sep 2019 @ 9:03am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: google search images of vaccine-injured chil

              I've also seen animal rights activists recently sharing a photo a rabbit in pretty bad shape claiming it's the result of animal testing for makeup (the photo in question is actually due to ear mites and has nothing to do with the accused companies).

              Unfortunately, whether it's for money or a cause they believe to be morally righteous, some people have no problem outright lying in the process.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:05am

    Package inserts

    Pinterest shows up in search results for package inserts.

    Here are the lists of injuries from vaccines.
    Includes length of studies before marketing.
    Not sure if reported injuries include post marketing injuries.

    "Package Inserts and Manufacturers for some US Licensed Vaccines and Immunoglobulins"

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:21am

    Literature on injuries

    Vaccine injuries were acknowledge in 1985.
    This book shows up on the U. S. Gov. website.

    National Research Council (US)
    Division of Health Promotion and Disease Prevention.
    Washington (DC): National Academies Press (US); 1985.

    [Chapter] 5 Vaccine Injury

    Summary

    Adverse events following immunization are reported to the FDA by manufacturers, pharmacists, physicians, and the military, and to the CDC by the parents or guardians of children who receive federally funded vaccines. Although these reporting systems are useful, neither of them provides an adequate basis for estimation of the total number of events that occur, in part because reporting is voluntary. Even if reporting were mandatory, however, the data would not allow determination of the number of events actually caused by, rather than coincidental to, the administration of vaccines because information on similar events in unvaccinated individuals is not collected. Conclusions about cause and effect and rates of adverse reactions to vaccines should be drawn only from carefully designed, well-controlled epidemiological studies.

    Responsibilities for identifying vaccine-associated risks, promoting awareness of contraindications to vaccination, and completing all of the steps required for vaccine improvement are now poorly defined and coordinated. Proposals outlined elsewhere in this report should ensure greater cooperation among the multiple public and private components of the vaccine innovation and immunization effort.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 8 Sep 2019 @ 8:12pm

      Re: Literature on injuries

      Dude, you REALLY need to read what you post before you post it in support of your baseless claims. What you posted quite literally shreds your entire argument. For example:

      Conclusions about cause and effect and rates of adverse reactions to vaccines should be drawn only from carefully designed, well-controlled epidemiological studies.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:25am

    U. S. Gov. - vaccine injuries

    A search for vaccine injuries shows up on the U. S. Government website.

    https://www.usa.gov/

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:33am

    Vaccine Injury Table

    This shows up in a search on U. S. Gov for vaccine injury

    [PDF] Vaccine Injury Table - hrsa.gov

    Vaccine Injury Table . Applies Only to Petitions for Compensation Filed under the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program...

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:41am

      Re: Vaccine Injury Table

      Anaphylaxis
      Brachial Neuritis
      Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
      Vasovagal syncope
      Encephalopathy or encephalitis
      Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration
      Chronic arthritis
      Thrombocytopenic purpura
      Vaccine-Strain Measles Viral Disease in an immunodeficient recipient
      Paralytic Polio
      Vaccine-Strain Polio Viral Infection
      Disseminated varicella vaccine-strain viral disease
      Varicella vaccine-strain viral reactivation
      Intussusception
      Guillain-Barré Syndrome

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 10:05am

        Re: Re: Vaccine Injury Table

        National Advisory Vaccine Committee

        DRAFT February 2018 NVAC Meeting Minutes

        https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/NVAC%20Feb%202018%20Summary%20v3_NVPO%20Edits.DT%20R EV_Final_Remediated.pdf

        Additional petitions requested the addition of autism, asthma, and tics. Another involved three different conditions: pediatric autoimmune and neuropsychiatric syndrome, pediatric infection-triggered autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder, and pediatric autoimmune neuropsychiatric disorder associated with group A streptococcus. The sixth petition related to experimental autoimmune encephalomyelitis and/or acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis. Medical officers provided the Commission with scientific and medical literature. Following discussions, commissioners all voted to exclude these conditions from the Vaccine Injury Table.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          PaulT (profile), 7 Sep 2019 @ 6:36am

          Re: Re: Re: Vaccine Injury Table

          Again, this means nothing. No vaccine is 100% safe, just as no medication if any kind is 100% safe. However it's better for everyone if as many people as possible have the vaccine and there's infrastructure to deal the the inevitable rare problems, than it is to risk breakouts if these diseases. The latter will have vastly greater costs, both human and monetary. Therefore adding vaccines for other diseases make sense as we understand which vaccines provide more value through mandatory usage than without.

          You repeating what sane people already know will not change that the only thing you can do with there scare tactics is to make your children LESS safe, as they become more susceptible to preventable diseases.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
    identicon
    Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:46am

    Vaccine Liability

    The U. S. Government website has search results for - vaccine liability

    https://search.usa.gov/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&affiliate=usagov&query=vaccine+liabil ity

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 7:54am

      Re: Vaccine Liability

      CDC
      History of Vaccine Safety

      lawsuits were filed

      Damages were awarded

      liability and prices soared, and several vaccine manufacturers halted production.

      To reduce liability and respond to public health concerns, Congress passed the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) in 1986.

      the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (NVICP) was created to compensate those injured by vaccines on a “no fault” basis.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
        identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2019 @ 8:57am

        Re: Re: Vaccine Liability

        Here is an interesting search result:

        BRUESEWITZ ET AL. v. WYETH LLC,

        ...As a quid pro quo, manufacturers enjoy significant tort-liability protections. Most importantly, the Act eliminates manufacturer liability for a vaccine’s unavoidable, adverse side effects.

        ...although products-liability law establishes three grounds for liability—defective manufacture, inadequate directions or warnings, and defective design—the Act mentions only manufacture and warnings. It thus seems that the Act’s failure to mention design-defect liability is “by deliberate choice, not inadvertence.”

        ...which exempts from strict liability rules “unavoidably unsafe products.”


        SOTOMAYOR, J., dissenting

        Vaccine manufacturers have long been subject to a legal duty, rooted in basic principles of products liability law, to improve the designs of their vaccines in light of advances in science and technology. Until today, that duty was enforceable through a traditional state-law tort action for defective design...

        ...Its decision leaves a regulatory vacuum in which no one ensures that vaccine manufacturers adequately take account of scientific and technological advancements when designing or distributing their products.

        ...And yet it is undisputed that prior to the Act, vaccine manufacturers had long been subject to liability under state tort law for defective vaccine design.

        ...The principal innovation of the Act was the creation of the no-fault compensation program

        ...Trial courts, moreover, have considerable experience in efficiently handling and disposing of meritless products liability claims, and decades of tort litigation (including for design defect) in the prescription-drug context have not led to shortages in prescription drugs.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          nasch (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 9:14am

          Re: Re: Re: Vaccine Liability

          Well if your earlier claim that companies stopped making vaccines is correct, then it sounds like something like this was necessary.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          PaulT (profile), 7 Sep 2019 @ 6:28am

          Re: Re: Re: Vaccine Liability

          I'm in no position to read the full versions of the things you quoted, but I'm going to assume that there's some important context thats between those ellipses...

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      PaulT (profile), 6 Sep 2019 @ 8:18am

      Re: Vaccine Liability

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

  • identicon
    Digitari, 6 Sep 2019 @ 4:05pm

    there should be a vaccine for this.

    it's a new century after all.

    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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