EU Moves Forward With Agreement To Fundamentally Change The Internet From Open To Closed

from the closing-down-the-internet dept

Despite the fact that even the staunchest supporters of Article 13 were asking for it to be dropped from the final version of the EU Copyright Directive, that didn't happen. In the final trilogue negotiations between the EU Council, the EU Commission and the EU Parliament, it appears that the agreed upon "compromise" is basically as bad as we feared. It will fundamentally change the entire nature of the internet. And not in a good way. As we recently discussed, the only way this makes sense is if the goal is to have the law be so bad that big internet companies feel forced to pay their way out of it.

And it appears that's what we've got. MEP Julia Reda's summary of the final deal highlights many of the problems with both Articles 11 and 13. Here's the mess with Article 13:

  • Commercial sites and apps where users can post material must make “best efforts” to preemptively buy licences for anything that users may possibly upload – that is: all copyrighted content in the world. An impossible feat.
  • In addition, all but very few sites (those both tiny and very new) will need to do everything in their power to prevent anything from ever going online that may be an unauthorised copy of a work that a rightsholder has pointed out to the platform. They will have no choice but to deploy upload filters, which are by their nature both expensive and error-prone.
  • Should a court ever find their licensing or filtering efforts not fierce enough, sites are directly liable for infringements as if they had committed them themselves. This massive threat will lead platforms to over-comply with these rules to stay on the safe side, further worsening the impact on our freedom of speech.
  • And with Article 11:

    The final version of this extra copyright for news sites closely resembles the version that already failed in Germany – only this time not limited to search engines and news aggregators, meaning it will do damage to a lot more websites.

    • Reproducing more than “single words or very short extracts” of news stories will require a licence. That will likely cover many of the snippets commonly shown alongside links today in order to give you an idea of what they lead to. We will have to wait and see how courts interpret what “very short” means in practice – until then, hyperlinking (with snippets) will be mired in legal uncertainty.
    • No exceptions are made even for services run by individuals, small companies or non-profits, which probably includes any monetised blogs or websites.

    If this becomes law, I'm not sure Techdirt can continue publishing in the EU. At the very least, it will require us to spend a large sum of money on lawyers to determine what our liability risk is -- to the point that it might just not be worth it at all. Article 13 makes a commenting system untenable, as we simply cannot setup a filter that will block people from uploading copyright-covered content. Article 11 potentially makes our posts untenable, since we frequently quote other news sites in order to comment on them (as we do above).

    This is, of course, the desire of those supporting both bills. It is not just to close the (made up, mythical) "value gap." It is to fundamentally change the internet away from an open system of communications -- one that anyone can use to bypass traditional gatekeepers, to a closed "broadcast" system, in which key legacy gatekeepers control access to the public, via a complicated set of licenses that strip all of the benefits and profits from the system.

    Not only will this do great harm to the general public's ability to communicate freely over the internet, it will do massive harm to artists and creators -- especially more independent ones, who will be effectively blocked from using these platforms to connect directly with their fans. Rather they will be required to go through "licensed" intermediaries, who will demand a huge cut of any money. In other words, it's a return to the pre-internet days, where if you wanted to become a professional creator, your only options were to sign away all your rights to giant conglomerate record labels/studios/publishers.

    It is incredible -- and incredibly disappointing -- that the EU is moving towards bringing back such a world, but that is what the latest agreement means.

    There is still a chance to stop this from becoming law, though it will take a lot of effort. As Reda explains:

    We can still stop this law

    The Parliament and Council negotiators who agreed on the final text now return to their institutions seeking approval of the result. If it passes both votes unchanged, it becomes EU law, which member states are forced to implement into national law.

    In both bodies, there is resistance.

    The Parliament’s process starts with the approval by the Legal Affairs Committee – which is likely to be given on Monday, February 18.

    Next, at a date to be announced, the EU member state governments will vote in the Council. The law can be stopped here either by 13 member state governments or by any number of governments who together represent 35% of the EU population (calculator). Last time, 8 countries representing 27% of the population were opposed. Either a large country like Germany or several small ones would need to change their minds: This is the less likely way to stop it.

    Our best bet: The final vote in the plenary of the European Parliament, when all 751 MEPs, directly elected to represent the people, have a vote. This will take place either between March 25 and 28, on April 4 or between April 15 and 18. We’ve already demonstrated last July that a majority against a bad copyright proposal is achievable.

    The plenary can vote to kill the bill – or to make changes, like removing Articles 11 and 13. In the latter case, it’s up to the Council to decide whether to accept these changes (the Directive then becomes law without these articles) or to shelve the project until after the EU elections in May, which will reshuffle all the cards.

    If you're an EU citizen, this next bit is important. Now is the time to start speaking up:

    This is where you come in

    The final Parliament vote will happen mere weeks before the EU elections. Most MEPs – and certainly all parties – are going to be seeking reelection. Articles 11 and 13 will be defeated if enough voters make these issues relevant to the campaigns. (Here’s how to vote in the EU elections – change the language to one of your country’s official ones for specific information)

    It is up to you to make clear to your representatives: Their vote on whether to break the internet with Articles 11 and 13 will make or break your vote in the EU elections. Be insistent – but please always stay polite.

    Together, we can still stop this law.

    Filed Under: article 11, article 13, closed, copyright, eu, eu copyright directive, intermediary liability, open


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    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:19am

      “If this becomes law, I'm not sure Techdirt can continue publishing in the EU.”

      Great news.

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      • icon
        PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:25am

        Re:

        Why? In considering your answer, bear in mind that this would be a long, long way from the only site affected.

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      • icon
        Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:56am

        Re:

        If you hate this site that much, what psychological compulsion keeps you from leaving it altogether?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:06am

        Re:

        "Great news."

        Is it still great news after you find out that it also applies to those websites that espouse opinions similar to yours?

        I assume you reside in the EU, what other websites will you cheer to see them disappear?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:33am

          Re: Re:

          It will also apply to them being able to post their own opinion, which they certainly seem to enjoy doing rather compulsively.

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          • icon
            Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 11:48am

            Re: Re: Re:

            Blue and those like him believe this law will only silence BAD people, so therefore it will have no effect on them -- and the fact it might silence TechDirt just means TechDirt is bad.

            They're in for a nasty shock.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Draph91 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:33am

        Re:

        Idiot

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:18am

          Re: Re:

          Speaking of idiots, its exciting (sarcasm) to see these european crats blocking the borders of the internet when they dared not block the infiltrating exodus of muslims across their physical borders, also against the will of their own citizens.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:00am

            Re: Re: Re:

            This is news .... are all immigrants of the muslim faith? I was unaware of this development, when did this happen?

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:11pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Depends on the particular breed of fascism the OP subscribes too.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:11pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Fuck.. some of those muslims were gang raping children in the streets while the governments were protecting them.

                WHAT THE FUCK???

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:27pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  And I’m sure you have a citation and aren’t just running off your mouth with some white nationalist trash you heard down at the trailer park while you were busy trying to fuck your sister.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                    identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 10:18pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    The eu was very quick to qwelch that news. I was fucking your sister asshole.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • identicon
                      Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 10:20pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                      They just took these young girls in the street and just raped them.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                      • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                        identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 10:22pm

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                        You must have been too busy trying to suck your own cock to turn on your tele.

                        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Bobo, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:18am

        Re:

        If only that genie hadn't cursed you to read this site and comment every day!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:10pm

        Re:

        More like pathetic hyperbole. Good lord what an assclown.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Dave P., 15 Feb 2019 @ 12:02pm

        Re:

        Ha! Might have known our favourite (not) troll would pick up on that. May you suffer a transmission failure at 3 a.m. on the most remote road in the country in a force ten gale with a snowstorm. Failing that, consumption by a bear would suffice.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      hij (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:18am

      How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

      How do you not publish in a different country when you are putting something on the web? Does this mean you will actively block a request from the EU? The idea of borders for an internet based publication is kind of quaint, but it also seems a bit onerous that a website based in a different country has to be the one to be aware of all the laws across the world and abide by all of them.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:37am

        Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

        That is where geoblocking comes in. Most websites have likely geoblocked China and many U.S websites have geoblocked the EU due to the GDPR.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:09am

          Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

          "That is where geoblocking comes in."

          ...and also where VPNs and other ways of circumventing geoblocking come in. So, the next round of this will be them trying to work out a way of banning consumer VPNs without accidentally destroying the ones depended upon by every modern business.

          Fun. So much better than making sure people actually understand what they're asking for when passing laws...

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:03am

          Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

          I'm not sure Techdirt can continue publishing in the EU

          That is where geoblocking comes in.

          To add to this discussion (hopefully) and because I'm honestly curious how this would work as well, how exactly does this work? Like hij, I don't understand how merely putting up a website automatically makes you subject to the laws of every country on the planet and why you would have to geoblock other countries from reaching your site?

          I mean, if I put up my own blog site here in the US, I wouldn't even consider checking to see if I comply with laws in some other country. Not my problem unless maybe I'm selling something. Now maybe if I bought top level domains controlled by other countries, then I could maybe see an argument that I was "publishing" in their country. But to put up a .com blog site and suddenly be limited by laws from a country I don't live in and doesn't host my site, I don't understand this. Can someone explain this to me?

          I mean, even Google, who doesn't abide by Chinese laws, can't be sued by China for stuff on their site, as long as they don't have any legal/physical presence in China. If they could, then China would be able to control what everyone in the world sees in Google search results, and that's just not the case. Google would just give them a big "F you" and move on if they tried.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:21am

            Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

            as long as they don't have any legal/physical presence

            That's the key. Google and other large internet content providers typically do have a presence in the EU. To avoid liability in the EU they would have to shut down those locations and lay off all of those employees.

            TD won't be affected by this unless they have a satellite office in the EU.

            I can only see this as a good thing. The EU will witness the damage they themselves wrought, as Spain did, and hopefully see fit to undo the damage. Of course the fiscal repercussions will take quite a while to unravel but they did, after all, ask for it. Something needs to happen to pound some sense into their heads.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:36am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              TD won't be affected by this unless they have a satellite office in the EU.

              That's what I don't understand give that Mike said this would affect them. As far as I know, TD doesn't have anything in the EU.

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            • icon
              Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:19pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              Well, kinda sorta unaffected.

              The EU would be unable to sue TD and win in a US court because EU laws have no power here. The EU could try in an EU court, but would have trouble collecting damages because US laws shield against US companies having to obey foreign court judgments that would violate the US Constitution.

              But, and there is always a but, there is the criminal law side to consider. The US generally won't extradite a US citizen over something that is constitutionally-protected in the US, but it's not unheard of -- people have been extradited from the US to Germany for saying things to Germans that violated German laws.

              And if anyone who works for TD ever travels to the EU or to a country that has an extradition treaty with the EU, they could be subject to arrest and prosecution for what TD publishes that violates EU law, even though TD has no EU presence.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:22pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the inte

                That is exactly what we are talking about.. the boirgoise EU should not be dictating anything that affects the global internet over the voice of the rest of the world unless they shut themselves down from it first.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2019 @ 5:29am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              All these American companies who put their address and whatever else they put in Ireland to evade taxes in U.S. are going to finally get audited.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:26am

            Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

            I suspect that the issue is just complicated because, like the GDPR, nobody really understands what the impact will be, especially not the people who wrote it.

            In Techdirt's case, while they don't directly publish in the EU, they do utilise some tech with an EU presence (e.g. Cloudflare) which could leave them exposed, and it's certainly a risk given the inability of some courts to understand what a CDN is. Even if any legal issues coming their way are utter rubbish, it still costs money to ensure you're not liable.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:39am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              I can't imagine that simply using Cloudflare would automatically make you subject to another country's laws. Cloudflare themselves might be subject to some of them, and I suppose you could say TD is the user and Cloudflare the host, therefore Cloudflare would be responsible for any infringing content TD posts, but oh man would there be a shitstorm if that was the case.

              Even if any legal issues coming their way are utter rubbish, it still costs money to ensure you're not liable.

              That's kind of my point though. Blog sites operating and hosted in the US don't have to worry about legal issues coming from other countries at all because it's another country. The US would just say "you have no jurisdiction, pound sand" and that would be that.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Shufflepants (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:26am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the inte

                But you could still get yourself effectively banned from those countries, which a site owner/runner might not want to do.

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              • icon
                PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 12:34am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the inte

                "I can't imagine that simply using Cloudflare would automatically make you subject to another country's laws."

                It probably won't, but what Mike is saying is that he would need expert legal advice to be sure and it could be more cost effective just to block. Same with with the GDPR - it's so confusing that some people would rather block than have any potential liability, no matter how small.

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            • icon
              btr1701 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:39am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              The U.S. Congress needs to address this directly as it did with Britain's ridiculous defamation laws. There Congress passed a law saying the US won't recognize or enforce any UK defamation judgment against a US citizen for speech that would be protected under US law.

              They need to do the same thing with this EU abomination and make it clear that US citizens and business are not required to implement upload filters and will not be held liable for the comments of their users. We have our own laws-- flawed though they may be-- on this subject and the EU doesn't get to preempt them and put its own in their place.

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            • icon
              Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:37pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              The GDPR's civil law side portions that exceed US privacy laws probably don't apply to US citizens and US companies located in the US that lack an EU presence -- US federal law shields US citizens from court judgments in foreign countries that would violate the US Constitution.

              But it's possible to be criminally charged under the GDPR, and the US has a criminal extradition treaty with the EU. The US has extradited people to the EU for things that are constitutionally protected in the US but criminally (not civilly) illegal in Europe.

              And most countries don't have that protection the US does.

              So people all over the world are complying with the GDPR even when they probably don't need to, just to be on the safe side.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:49pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the inte

                The US has extradited people to the EU for things that are constitutionally protected in the US but criminally (not civilly) illegal in Europe.

                Do you have links to reports of these incidents? Because frankly I find that hard to believe. Unless said "crime" was committed in the actual country and not on US soil, I'm not sure how that can be true. If that was the case, the US would be extraditing half of its population for criminal trials because we say and do things every single day that would be considered "crimes" under other countries' law.

                I find this especially hard to believe in regards to speech. Freedom of speech is possibly the most hard protected right of US citizenry in the US. For the US to then go and extradite someone based on the fact that they said something online/over the phone/text/etc... while still being on US soil and it was legal in the US but a crime in another country would fly in the face of that right.

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          • icon
            btr1701 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:34am

            Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

            But to put up a .com blog site and suddenly be limited by laws from a country I don't live in and doesn't host my site, I don't understand this.

            That's because it's not true. Merely putting up a website doesn't subject you to the laws of every country on earth.

            If a country doesn't like your site for whatever reason, they can block it, but you're under no legal obligation to do anything.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:38am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              I understand that. But statements have been made that suggest TD would somehow be subject to this new legislation. I want to understand why, or why it is thought they would.

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              • icon
                Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:08pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the inte

                Generally, so long as TD writers never set foot in a place with an extradition treaty with the EU, the new law and the GDPR don't apply to TD.

                The problem is, the US does have an extradition treaty, it just doesn't apply to civil court judgments that would be unconstitutional in the US.

                The problem though, is it's possible in the EU to be charged criminally for violating the GDPR and this new law, and US law won't protect against that. In countries that do allow civil law extradition or will enforce foreign civil judgments, the problem only gets worse.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:36pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the

                  is it's possible in the EU to be charged criminally for violating the GDPR and this new law, and US law won't protect against that

                  Are you sure? According to Wikipedia,

                  Double criminality is a requirement in extradition procedures from the United States, as extradition is allowed only for offenses that are alleged as crimes in both jurisdictions.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 10:33pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on

                    And besides that, SCREW THE EU. What goes on in the eu stays in the eu.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:55am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

              If a country doesn't like your site for whatever reason, they can block it,

              And the site owners/operators can avoid travelling to Europe.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:06am

        Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

        This "quaint" national border vs international internet debate has a name. Its called "balkanization of the internet" and people have been fighting it for years.

        Who woulda thunk that the EU would be the legislature to make it happen.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:07pm

          Re: Re: How do you not publish somewhere on the internet

          And when one nation asserts that is has sovereignty over another nation, which is what claiming their laws reach globally into another sovereign nation is, there is a technical diplomatic for the situation:

          Casus Belli.

          Nations tend to go to war over things like that.

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    • identicon
      Michael Riendeau, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:30am

      The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democracy

      I would gladly see the EU be dismantled should the Parliament approve of these fascist legislation. It is becoming an undemocratic and hateful Institution, showing nothing but contempt towards the people. The process that has been going on have made The Net Neutrality Repeal more democratic in comparison. Despite Ajit Pai's own contempt for public opinion, our fight is still continuing and we have one of the only two political parties in control of Congress on our side.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:44am

        Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democra

        The EU never had any legitimacy or credibility as a democracy. It was deliberately designed to minimize public influence.

        Any arguable claim to legitimacy went out the window years ago with the attempted "EU Constitution" (later renamed lisbon treaty to hide what they were doing), when the EU decided that Ireland has to vote as many times as necessary to get a positive result.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          morganwick (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:38am

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          And they wonder why countries like Britain are trying to get out...

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            frank87 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:44am

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            I don't think this is Britain's problem. But it could be the trigger for the next country.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:46am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility

              "I don't think this is Britain's problem. But it could be the trigger for the next country."

              Yes and no. Farage's xenophobic diatribes catered to a great many isolationists while riding the coattails of fiascos of public service.

              But the fact that the EU has become a new iteration of a holy roman empire run by a neo-feudal aristocracy in the form of unelected bureaucrats no doubt helped the UK to make the decision to exit.

              At which point, had the EU even intended to be reasonable and fair, they would at least have put a rollback to the old schengen agreement on the table. instead, predictably, the EU aims to crucify the UK in as painful a way as possible as a warning unto others.

              If you have true reason to FEAR leaving a union then that is, in my book, a VERY good reason to consider leaving.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:19am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibil

                The thing is the UK was never part of the schengen agreement, the UK is the only country within the EU to not be a part of it, the Northen Ireland aspect is oddity in that there is no border between Northen Ireland and IRE, but there is between Northen Ireland and the UK.

                In the world of trading you must secure your borders for trade agreements to function effectively, you can not allow products to simply enter a country un-tracked or un-customed, failure to do so undermines the entire system, it's a basic requirement and is written in to pretty much every trade agreement with every country that there will be a customs border and items going in/out will be subjected to it.

                Even WTO requires that a border be enforced and that is applied to all 120+ bodies of the WTO.

                The EU is only doing what is best for the remaining 27 member states, should the shoe be on the other foot, and another country leaving, would you like to see that one country get special treatment, if undermine all previous trade agreement?

                What is more worrying is that we currently have 1 trade agreement ready to go live which is worth £10 Billion and that's it, South Korea and Japan are asking for more concessions from the UK before they will even consider a deal, and other countrys are asking for the UK to lower their standards for a trade deal to be considered, such as some from the US are lobbying for the UK to lower standards to allow the sale of products that otherwise don't meet the EU food standards that we adopted, or some existing trade partners that we have agreements with via the EU that will be cut off post brexit are asking for human rights to be lowered: “Some countries have said that they didn’t like, for example, the human rights elements that were incorporated by the EU and they would like us to drop those in order to roll the agreements over,” , Why would they want human rights to be lowered?

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                • icon
                  PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:39am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and cred

                  "The EU is only doing what is best for the remaining 27 member states"

                  That the thing that needs to be remembered by the Little Englanders. The EU didn't choose this, they have historically given preferential treatment to the UK and once this goes through their prime concern is the wellbeing of the remaining EU along with EU citizens who might remain in the UK. Of course they're going to make it difficult for the UK to leave, if giving them what they want makes the citizens the EU is responsible for worse off.

                  Furthermore, news today is that the Bank Of England estimates the whole shitshow to have ALREADY cost the economy 80 billion, and the UK haven't even decided how they're going to ferry in all the goods that will have to go through the borders they forgot would need customs checks, given that the last deal with a company that didn't have any ferries fell through.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:14am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and

                    Ah yes, the 17.4 million 'Little Englanders'. Better a Little Englander than a braindead EU-shill.

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                    • icon
                      PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:38am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy

                      "Ah yes, the 17.4 million 'Little Englanders'"

                      Yes, all of whom voted on a non-binding referendum, and of whom many have realised they were either lied to or that the government's interpretation of what the vote meant differed greatly from their own. Not all the Leavers were Little Englanders, of course, but there were enough of you who voted based on jingoism and fiction for the general theme to stick.

                      I do also love the way that the Leave brigade always bring up the absolute number of votes, though. Saying 51.9% of the ~50% of the population who voted doesn't give you the emotional response you want, does it?

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                      • identicon
                        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:54am

                        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitim

                        LOL. YOU were the one who tarred everyone who voted leave with the patronising, insulting tag of 'Little Englander' and now you whine like the remoaner bigot that you are about me quoting numbers. Priceless.

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                        • identicon
                          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:24pm

                          Re: Are all Nigel’s wankers or is it just you?

                          Goddamn you even write like one of those Brexit turds.

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                        • icon
                          PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 12:36am

                          Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all leg

                          I see that reading comprehension and a thick skin are still not qualities associated with Brexiteers. Whatever keeps you from admitting you're fucking things up in the worst possible way, I suppose...

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                          • icon
                            Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 7:13am

                            Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all

                            What PaulT says.

                            I'm Irish with family in France, an end-user of the NHS and my employers get supplies and services from the EU. Basically, Brexit will eff up my life so no, I'm not in favour of it.

                            Do Brexiters care? Nope. "We're British, we will muddle through." They forget that Dunkirk was about people caring enough about each other to be willing to sacrifice themselves if that's what it took to get Our Boys home. It was not about "Screw you, it's not A problem till it's MY problem."

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                            • icon
                              PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 7:37am

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing

                              "Basically, Brexit will eff up my life"

                              It will screw everybody. It would have been a very difficult transition has there been a properly debated plan in place before triggering article 50 and everybody spent the following 2 years working tirelessly to make it as smooth as possible.

                              There is no way it won't be destructive for everyone in the current state - ironically especially for some of the biggest Brexit supporters. In fact, it already has with it recently reported that it's already cost the UK economy an estimated £80 billion.

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                              • icon
                                Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 18 Feb 2019 @ 2:24am

                                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is lo

                                Yet the Brexiteers keep pushing it. The latest line is, "We must respect the referendum result whether it was a con or not."

                                Stuff that for a game of soldiers. Brexiteers are the most selfish, ignorant, reality-avoidant idiots I know!

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                                • icon
                                  That One Guy (profile), 18 Feb 2019 @ 7:59am

                                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU i

                                  Yet the Brexiteers keep pushing it. The latest line is, "We must respect the referendum result whether it was a con or not."

                                  ... do any of the people pushing that rot have the self-awareness to understand how incredible stupid that argument is, and thereby makes them look? 'Doesn't matter if they were tricked, it still counts!' is the kinda thing you'd expect from a con-man trying to defend their actions.

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                            • identicon
                              Anonymous Coward, 16 Feb 2019 @ 1:37pm

                              Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing

                              Yeah, what Paul (Bigo)T says! :)

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                • icon
                  Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:32am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and cred

                  The EU is only doing what is best for the remaining 27 member states

                  Seems to me most of what they do, particularly since the establishment of the Euro, is what's best for Germany. This may or may not also be good for any other given member state at any given point in time.

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                • icon
                  Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:25am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and cred

                  "The thing is the UK was never part of the schengen agreement, the UK is the only country within the EU to not be a part of it, the Northen Ireland aspect is oddity in that there is no border between Northen Ireland and IRE, but there is between Northen Ireland and the UK."

                  The UK has maintained an opt-out option of schengen yes. So all they'd need is to opt-in once again. That would leave the trade agreements only. The UK would lose the inner market, yes, but that in itself isn't a death knell for the economy, i believe.

                  "The EU is only doing what is best for the remaining 27 member states, should the shoe be on the other foot, and another country leaving, would you like to see that one country get special treatment, if undermine all previous trade agreement?"

                  I stopped believing that the EU did "what was best" for anyone, least of all the member states, ever since the four freedoms turned into "federalization for all".

                  The salient point is that neutral zones with an entry/exit into a trade zone have existed ever since borders started being drawn on maps. It's not a new phenomenon, least of all in europe. The EU has other solutions than the one they currently propose - which is one rendering the exit as painful as possible for the UK.

                  "...some existing trade partners that we have agreements with via the EU that will be cut off post brexit are asking for human rights to be lowered..."

                  Why am I thinking "Turkey" right now? Human rights are not an issue like trade where compromise is desirable and necessary, to begin with. Leave that part aside.

                  That said the EU has very little room to speak of human rights with the "Right to be forgotten" - (censorship/information control) and the "Terrorist content" (censorship which won't prevent terrorists from being online but WILL prevent legitimate civil uprisings from public exposure) laws. Not to mention the hilarious shit-show which is article 11 and 13 (removing all news and online information for everyone save from state-governed and multinationals).

                  Fact is the EU already goes beyond old East Germany in surveillance of the common public and beyond the old USSR in its proposed lists of what sort of information is considered "undesirable". The governing bodies calling the shots are unelected bureaucrats primarily interested in serving themselves and the internal corruption is so intense that until now no auditing company has agreed to sign off on the EU budget because billions of euro end up unaccounted for each year.

                  We already have plenty of examples where the EU commission has tried to swear the PM's to secrecy over trade treaties in direct defiance of the EU charter and shadow rapporteurs have resigned over the commission and council actively trying to deceive the parliament. This shit-show, had it been run in any single member state, would have consigned said state to rogue status and a place of dishonor among the G20.

                  But the EU is, apparently, too big to fail in the face-saving community of politicians who've rammed the construct down the throats of their electorate and intent on remaining that way until the last vestiges of democratic drops off its crumbling facade.

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                  • icon
                    Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 18 Feb 2019 @ 2:26am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and

                    The EU Commission doesn't own or run the EU. They're about to get slapped down AGAIN over what the smart people are calling "ACTA 2."

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:48am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibil

                "the EU aims to crucify the UK"

                like a street gang giving a worse beating on the way out

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              • icon
                Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:09pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibil

                Which is ironic, given that the Holy Roman Empire did have voting. It's the origin of the old saying that goes "In a Democracy, it's your vote that counts. In feudalism, it's your Count that votes."

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                • icon
                  Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:50pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and cred

                  Or the version commonly attributed to Josef Stalin: "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes."

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                  • icon
                    Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:28am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and

                    "Or the version commonly attributed to Josef Stalin: "It's not who votes that counts, it's who counts the votes.""

                    Is this the place to quote Mikhail Gorbachev's views on the EU once again?

                    "The most puzzling development in modern politics is the apparent determination of Western European leaders to re-create the Soviet Union in Western Europe."

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                    • icon
                      PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:36am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy

                      Do you have a primary source for that Gorbachev quote? I see it pop up occasionally but have never seen anything that suggests it's not apocryphal.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 10:54pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and

                    I did not know Joe Stalin was American!

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          • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
            identicon
            Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:43am

            For any new readers: "morganwick" has ODD 6 year gap...

            after first comment way back in 2009. Yes, its 2nd comment was in 2015!

            And it's not the only "account" with 6 year gap: are at least 10 with that length, dozens with 3-4-5.

            ODD accounts are typical on Techdirt, and the dozens such persisting for years now -- even after I've been exposing them -- conclusively show astro-turfing.

            So beware! This site is not as seems.

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        • icon
          frank87 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:52am

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          The EU is a union of governments. The European Parliament is added to it to suggest influence of the citizens. The real power lies with people who are elected by people the citizens elected (in most European countries the government is elected by parliament).

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          • icon
            Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:52am

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            "The real power lies with people who are elected by people the citizens elected"

            Actually...no.¨ The european commission, which holds disproportionate power, has, in practice, no democratic input what so ever. Any safeguards rely exclusively on the national governments of the EU actively choosing to disapprove the new commission as a whole when it's implemented.

            Although on paper it's theoretically possible to ensure a democratic process in reality that's as true as making a claim that all you need to empty lake superior is twenty volunteers with buckets. It's true, as long as you ignore the individual effort and time involved.

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            • icon
              frank87 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:22am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility

              True, the national governments have the power. But our national government (I'm Dutch) always claims they have to do stuff because it's obligations in Europe. Even if they have veto power. The worst problem with the EU is it hides the person responsible.

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              • icon
                Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:32am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibil

                "But our national government (I'm Dutch) always claims they have to do stuff because it's obligations in Europe."

                Correct. Every member nation conveniently hides all accountability as soon as it can be blamed on the EU - because the trail of public accountability ends dead and cold right there.

                And of course, if the EU council needs to approve the new commission for the next five years it will do so even if the new commission has been stuffed with every politician or bureaucrat member states found too much of a crackpot to suffer at home.

                The commission is a cross between a nepotistic network of good ole boys, cronyism, and a place of cushy exile for sock puppets and fall guys. And it holds, by the rules, most of the legislative power.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:02pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility

              Not twenty volunteers with buckets, but China towing 600 ft bladders filled with the lake water on a long journey to three gorges dam is what it takes to empty Lake Superior.

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        • icon
          Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:02am

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          Not a mad EU-phile but both of these comments are nonsense.

          It was deliberately designed to minimize public influence.

          Citation? Seriously, just stop. Irish people are smart; they weren't happy with the option provided to them the first time around and after it had been amended they voted again.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:08am

        Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democra

        "The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democracy"

        Just following the trump example

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        • icon
          steell (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:35am

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          Much as I dislike Trump, it would be more honest to say that Trump is following the EU example since the EU predates Trump.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:38am

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            The the EU Copyright Directive does not.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:07pm

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            The eu is restoring 2000 year old Roman empire now that the entire world is connected by english language.

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        • icon
          Bergman (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:11pm

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          How, precisely, is it Trump's example, when he has actually followed democratic principles no more and no less than Obama did?

          To be truly fair, you'd have to call it the problem of every single President since President Carter.

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          • identicon
            Rocky, 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:47pm

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            AFAIK no president before Trump has arbitrarily sacked people left and right. Also, AFAIK no other president has assaulted the checks and balances in the way Trump has.

            And no other president before Trump seems to have been a pathological liar.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:22pm

            Re: Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a

            "How, precisely, is it Trump's example"?

            • That was a response to the post to which it replied and that post claimed, among other things, the following:

            "The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democracy"

            Are you now claiming that Donald has not contributed any more than prior presidents toward the diminishing status of the US with respect to legitimacy, credibility and democracy?

            Such claims require data, evidence .. you know, that sort of thing.

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        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:42am

          Re: Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Dem

          Leave Trump out of it. The man's a proven pathological liar and a grand-standing narcissist with a long record of treating women and ethnic minorities as objects. Has been for some 40 years. But that's it. He's mainly a symptom that US polarization may just be a few race riots shy of another civil war.

          The EU contains people far, far worse than trump in decisionmaking power. Unlike Trump they're ideologically bent on rendering as much as they can of the EU into a continent-wide control network. They are completely protected from accountability by a lack of transparency which is only broken when conscientious parliamentary members choose to reveal facts to their electorate. And thanks to the "right to be forgotten" their names are quick to stop gracing google search in the EU.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 9:37am

        Re: The EU is losing all legitimacy and credibility as a Democra

        My one problem with dissolving the EU is that it will open the doors for Russian influence in the East and an erosion of people's rights in certain countries that would usually not be permitted under EU rule.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:15am

      Whats good for the goose is good for the parliamentarian

      So, lets assume that reason will not prevail and that this idiotic measure becomes law.

      There is only one way to "fix" it (or force the parliament to amend it) and that is the courts. Thus, we need to create some cases. People smarter than me could work out "nice ways" to do this. Here's a shitty one:

      Identify a big content player and an EU news agency. From each choose a juicy piece of content. Next identify all members of the EU parliament who voted to approve this monstrosity and find out which of them have web sites that allow community feedback. Then, using whatever tricks you want (careful here, this could be illegal) like one day email addresses, register at said parliamentarian's community feedback site and spam the copyrighted content with an associated message saying things like "you are preventing me from commenting on this content because of <insert formal reference to the passed Copyright Directive".

      Wait and watch :)

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:21am

        Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliamentarian

        Won't work. They'll just do the same thing they did with the GDPR: "this doesn't apply to us because legal reasons."

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        • icon
          frank87 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:09am

          Re: Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliamentarian

          As my father used to say: Quod licet Jovi non licet bovi.

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          • icon
            That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:29am

            Re: Re: Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliamenta

            Translation please? I'd do it myself but I'm honestly not sure which language that is.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:34am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliam

              Plugging it in to Google Translate with "detect language" returns:

              All that is allowed to Jupiter is not permitted to the ox that.

              Not perfectly coherent, but good enough to get the gist of it.

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            • icon
              XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:35am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliam

              Rough translation is: "What is right for you isn't right for me"

              My latin is a bit rusty but that's the jist of it

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              • icon
                That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:48am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the par

                Ah, so similar to a line I've used a few times, 'One law for thee, another for me'. Thanks to you and the AC above.

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          • icon
            Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:18am

            …the hell does Bon Jovi have to do with anything?

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:54am

        Re: Whats good for the goose is good for the parliamentarian

        Just wait and see what happens when people cannot publish baby and holiday movies and pictures for their friends and family to admire, because that is what this legislation leads to. That is when politicians are likely to receive the message that they have got it very wrong.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:46am

      Sure, time for Google to pull out of Europe like News did out of Spain and Germany.

      Then watch all the news site bitch and moan.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:53am

        Re:

        Remember last week's Techdirt podcast, talking with a journalist who tried cutting herself off from the major tech companies for a week and found just how difficult everything became because so much of the Internet relies on them?

        If Microsoft, Google, and Amazon--the three major providers of Internet infrastructure--agreed to geoblock all of Europe if this passes, on all of their services including their cloud infrastructure, it would bring the Internet grinding to a halt over there. Would anyone else enjoy seeing that happen?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 4:57am

          Would anyone else enjoy seeing that happen?

          Well, we have a troll we like to call Sanford running around here, and he seems pretty high on the idea…

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        • icon
          tex2us (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:10am

          Re: Re:

          They should start testing their geoblocking now to be article 13 ready. That should give us europeans a taste of tomorrow.

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          • icon
            That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:47am

            Re: Re: Re:

            Every company needs to take Google's 'beta test', a page to highlight just what they'll look like to people in the EU if this passes, and run with it for a few days. Let the general public know just what's in store for them if this train-wreck of a pair of laws pass, in a visible, impossible to ignore manner.

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:00am

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Just turn off Facebook, Twitter and Instagram for a day, because they will be hit as hard in the company accounts as Google, if not harder.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:37am

          Re: Re:

          I thought one of the major arguments was for local startups and initiatives and search engines to "survive". Which, it was claimed, they couldn't do because of Google and Amazon. So what's the problem? Let them develop and survive.

          Unless you mean all of those who were pushing for Article 13 were lying, but that couldn't possibly be the case, right?

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        • icon
          PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:50am

          Re: Re:

          "If Microsoft, Google, and Amazon--the three major providers of Internet infrastructure--agreed to geoblock all of Europe if this passes"

          ...then they would still be very much bound by EU law for all of the stuff they run from inside the EU.

          It's a shitshow, but don't pretend it's as easy as putting up a few blocks, even if those companies were willing to jettison hundreds of millions of customers.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:07am

            Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

            ...then they would still be very much bound by EU law for all of the stuff they run from inside the EU.

            For as long as it takes to pull all assets out of the area, and take steps to block access to those in the area, thereby removing themselves from EU jurisdiction

            It's a shitshow, but don't pretend it's as easy as putting up a few blocks, even if those companies were willing to jettison hundreds of millions of customers.

            Given the alternatives, I suspect that more than a few companies, them including, will very seriously consider jettisoning hundreds of millions of customers to be the safer bet. It'll be one hell of a hit to be sure, but between 'license everything or else' and 'if someone uses your platform to infringe and we decide you 'didn't try hard enough' you're on the hook for it'(which, given how insane copyright fines can be could result in massive penalties on a regular basis), it might simply be cheaper to cut the losses and remove service from the EU entirely.

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            • icon
              PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:34am

              Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

              "For as long as it takes to pull all assets out of the area, and take steps to block access to those in the area, thereby removing themselves from EU jurisdiction"

              No offence, but you seem to have a rather simplistic idea of how these things are being run. There's a huge infrastructure investment in numerous different ways.

              "it might simply be cheaper to cut the losses and remove service from the EU entirely"

              Or, it might as well not be.

              There's a huge number of options between the all or nothing, and no company is going to pull out of Europe just to make a point. Bearing in mind that these are companies who have been quite willing to abide with draconian demands in China and the Middle East to maintain local presence, it's not going to happen here.

              I understand the sentiment, but let's discuss things that are realistically going to happen.

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              • icon
                XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:44am

                Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                What could and most will happen is all the big players will put in upload filters that will edge on the side of caution, small companies or hobbiests won't survive.

                Worst case, certain uploads won't be permitted at all.

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                • identicon
                  Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:36am

                  Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                  I agree. End result will be companies the EU is whining about being too large and anti-competitive will be handed an even bigger club as any competition they may face will have to invest millions in filtering just to avoid liability too. So in addition to killing user generated content they also cream competition. Good job everyone!

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                • icon
                  PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:50am

                  Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                  "What could and most will happen is all the big players will put in upload filters that will edge on the side of caution, small companies or hobbiests won't survive."

                  Except that won't work when the damn servers are already located in that country. Like I said, if someone thinks this is a realistic idea, they have no idea what's actually involved in the way thse companies are set up.

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                  • icon
                    XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:03am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    What wouldn't work?

                    The likes of Google, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Etc, Etc will have the financial, technical and legal clout to impose some sort of upload filter, not saying this will good, rather I implied it would be very bad as the filters would edge on the side of caution and reject loads of uploads, posts, Etc, Etc because they want to be extra careful they aren't infringing.

                    No doubt something will get through, and then the new laws would be put to the test to try and hold Google, Youtube, Facebook, Etall liable for the infringement, and that will be an interesting test

                    Small sites, won't have the resources to do this, and as such would just shut their doors rather than be held liable, thus entrenching the current big players.

                    The idea of where the servers are located doesn't fall in to this anywhere when it comes to the upload filters.

                    I will admit there is quite a bit of this new copyright law I don't understand, but I have tried to take the time to understand Article 11 and 13, and I work in the Managed Compute IT industry so have a fairly good understanding of Tech and don't mix it up with Magic like a lot of these politicians seem to all the time.

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                    • icon
                      PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 12:41am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million..

                      The issue seems to be confused here. I'm addressing the people who think that it would be trivial for those sites to simply block the EU, I'm pointing out that there's a massive investment that makes it not going to happen.

                      "The idea of where the servers are located doesn't fall in to this anywhere when it comes to the upload filters."

                      It really does. Jurisdiction would vary depending on physical location.

                      "Small sites, won't have the resources to do this,"

                      Funnily enough, it would be far more trivial for a small site to, say, move their site from Ireland to the US on their AWS hosting than it would be for Amazon to move their data centre. We're not merely talking about filters here.

                      "don't mix it up with Magic like a lot of these politicians seem to all the time."

                      Sadly, the rest of us have to attempt to comply with their expectations of magic, even though we're telling them all along that it's impossible.

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                  • icon
                    Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:49am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    "Except that won't work when the damn servers are already located in that country."

                    And then the server farm simply moves.

                    True as you say, no company is going to pull out of europe just to make a point.

                    But when basic legislation guarantees any business run in europe will be run at a loss? That'll move them out, no problem. It's a different situation than with China where all google needs to do is allow the state to insert a filter the state maintains.

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                    • icon
                      PaulT (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:53am

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million..

                      "And then the server farm simply moves."

                      "Simply", right....

                      "But when basic legislation guarantees any business run in europe will be run at a loss? "

                      If literally no company is able to make money things will change rather quickly without these companies shouldering massive upheaval.

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              • icon
                Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:39am

                Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                I understand the sentiment, but let's discuss things that are realistically going to happen.

                Every great achievement the human race has made, every leap forward that has made things better for mankind, has started with someone courageous enough to ignore exactly that idea.

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                • icon
                  PaulT (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:48am

                  Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                  I don't think that companies burning massive investment and blocking hundreds of millions of customers just to prove a point fits that description.

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                  • icon
                    Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:08am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    Depends on how important the point is.

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:02am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    If the alternative is at least as costly it's easy to see it happening.

                    Google, Facebook, et. al., can shut down their EU offices and continue as normal. That's a lot cheaper than trying to comply with these new directives.

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                  • icon
                    That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:49pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    And if they were doing that 'to prove a point' you might have a point. My point on the other hand is that with the massive liability they'd be facing, between the protection racket they'd have to sign up for and the possibility that if they miss something it could come back to bite them bad, the better option long-term could very well be to pull all assets from the EU so that they are no longer under it's jurisdiction.

                    Would pulling out of the EU be a huge pain in the ass, costing significant amounts of money and customers? Absolutely. On the other hand, paying to an extortion racket, even if it's small now, will add up(and almost certainly grow), and the uncertainty of having the very users you're trying to entice also act as potential liability magnets painting a target on your back could very well be enough to convince companies that it's simply not worth the risk or costs.

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                    • icon
                      Mason Wheeler (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:38pm

                      Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million..

                      As Kipling put it,

                      once you have paid him the Danegeld,

                      you never get rid of the Dane

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                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 19 Feb 2019 @ 1:36pm

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Lose 1 million, or risk losing 100 million...

                    Risk vs rewards. No ones going “or able” to filter and check every word on the internet like this thing says to do just so they won’t get sued by someone becuase some high living aristocrat in Europe with rich friends passed something to help them like he was elected to do.

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    • icon
      XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:28am

      Fair use

      I have contacted all my local MEP's both for and against, asserting points as to why they should be rejecting Articles 11 & 13.

      Hopefully they get enough pressure to get them to vote according to what is best for the general public and to stand by them, rather than standing with the few companies that are pushing for these laws.

      I really hope that if these do go through, that companies go full nucular and just block all EU IP's and all news sites such as news.google.com just shut the doors to the EU, it would be interesting to see how long it takes before the EU changes course, all it would take is someone like Twitter, or Facebook to stop people comments or uploading, there would be hell by lunch time.

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      • icon
        rangda (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:00am

        Re: Fair use

        Stopping comments wouldn't be good enough. Even with view only access it's entirely possible that someone outside the EU posts copyrighted content which could then be viewed in the EU. Lacking a magic copyright filter which cannot exist, the choices for someone like twitter appear to be:

        1) Leave everything as is and roll the dice that you won't get fined. Funnel some cash to appropriate parties to help ensure this outcome. 2) Block any IP from the EU from viewing any and all content that has not been approved by a content filter. For this to have any real shot you have to have a pretty high confidence level in the filter. 3) Block EU IP's from accessing your site entirely. 4) If you're really paranoid, block all EU IP's from accessing your site. Block any link where the IP is in the EU. Completely shut down all EU operations. Executives avoid ever entering an EU country.

        The problem is that #3 doesn't even fully solve the problem, non-EU users could post EU content and even though you aren't showing it you could be found to be infringing and be penalized (assuming you still have any EU operations and thus the EU has a way to get at you). For example, google has a data center in Ireland, even if they just block all EU IP's from google news, what happens if an EU link gets through the cracks and gets posted? The EU could still hit them with fines even though no EU user can see it, and since they have a business in the EU (even though it's unrelated) that gives the EU a way to get at them. The only way to really avoid fines is to go full nuclear and use #4 and totally and completely abandon the EU.

        As for what would happen, I expect major services that already have pretty good content filters (like youtube) would go with option #2. Just block the content until it passes the filter. The problem is that they may just decide to do that for everybody instead of just for EU IP's since that would be easier. I think small sites like enthusiast/hobby forums would go with #1 counting on the fact that they aren't the target of the law and nobody would bother with them. For a major site that lacks good content filtering like twitter I'm not sure what they would do.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:20am

          Re: Re: Fair use

          I expect major services that already have pretty good content filters (like youtube)

          YouTube filters only cover audio, and article 13 also requires them to cover video, text and images. In other words filtering is almost impossible, leaving blocking all user uploads or buying a license as the only option.

          This law is so badly worded that it hands control over the Internet to the entertainment industries.

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:05am

            Re: Re: Re: Fair use

            But buy a license from whom? Absolutely anything could be uploaded. Does YT have to seek out every person on Earth to license anything they might have produced just in case it gets used in an upload?

            Even if they "only" have to license content that does get uploaded, it's now up to YT to try and figure out what content, if any, in any given video might have been produced by someone other than the uploader and then try to identify who actually created that content, track them down and license it? Do you know how many hours of video are uploaded to YT every second of every day?

            It's an impossible task. Even if it were possible, it's impossibly expensive.

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            • icon
              XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:13am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair use

              They boy do I have some content to licence to YouTube now, I a sure I can come up with some drivel that I can licence to them, no one said it had to be good content that get's licenced hahaha

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            • identicon
              Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:49am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair use

              It's an impossible task. Even if it were possible, it's impossibly expensive.

              Somebody is thinking that only the legacy publishers own copyright, and they are the ones who will benefit from these laws. They are possible right with respect to the last point, as self publishers do not wish to destroy their route to an audience.

              By the way FidoNet is stall active is some parts of the world, and could make a resurgence amongst geeks,

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:57am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair use

              "It's an impossible task. Even if it were possible, it's impossibly expensive."

              And this is something quite well realized by the politicians who currently all pretend they can't understand or won't acknowledge the that.

              Article 13 exists only to protect the current media giants from competition. And EU politicians in France and Germany have realized it could easily be adapted to remove that protection from anything competing with the ailing at-home culture production as well. Which is my take on why the EU is suddenly pushing for an article 13 even the RIAA and MPAA don't want.

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              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:18am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fair use

                And EU politicians in France and Germany have realized it could easily be adapted to remove that protection from anything competing with the ailing at-home culture production as well.

                Except they will make it too expensive for ailing at home culture production to use the Internet. Block all infringement, with the hope that licensing agreements can be made, hand all the power to the the US based legacy industries and their European associates.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:42pm

          Re: Re: Fair use

          I would be lighting my cigars with any notice I get from that fascist bunch. Fact that I don't smoke doesn't matter.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:35pm

        Re: Fair use

        Where is the rest of the world going to accomodate the mass exodus of people who opt to leave the EU western Europe when they lose the internet?

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:37am

      anyone who thinks this whole shbang is nothing to do with the entertainment industries must be living in cloud cuckoo land! it has been these industries aim for decades to get complete control of the internet and have it as their own. using it as a media distribution service, which will cost next to nothing but will rake in a fortune is exactly what they want! while doing this and having people have to get permission to upload/download, at a cost, is again just what they want. and dont forget that Japan has just implemented a new law that locks people away for 2 years, just for downloading pirated media etc. and the internet takeover is nothing to do with these industries? you gotta be fucking kiddin' me! dont believe a thing they say! ans it's gonna get worse for everyone, believe you me!! all these industries want to do is make a fortune. the powerful and famous, however, who are backing these moves, are more than happy because it keeps their escapades, lies and 2 faced activities out of the public eye too

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    • icon
      That One Guy (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:43am

      'Pretty please put the gun down?'

      Be insistent – but please always stay polite.

      While I certainly wouldn't suggest that people start swearing the MEP's out, I'm thinking polite isn't going to cut it without some firm 'if you've no interest in serving me, I have no interest in keeping you on the public dime' language.

      By pure luck the vote for this is apparently mere weeks before major elections, and I'd say that provides a hefty bit of leverage to use. Make clear that if they aren't interested in serving the public, and are in fact willing to screw over their constituents on such a major issue, then anyone else who runs against them will get your vote instead.

      'If you vote for this, I'm not going to vote for you, and I will go out of my way to convince everyone I know to vote against you come the next election as well.'

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    • icon
      frank87 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 5:55am

      Don't worry

      They won't use it against you. It's only for people they don't like.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:23am

      Forum posts, picture sharing and all kinds of information sharing over the internet prevents YOUR Government, legally elected by the people, from being effective at governing not just the people and your comrades, but governing information. Without your elected government carefully choosing the news you need while filtering out harmful "fake news", your elected government can not effectively govern you!

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:41am

        Re:

        Yes, if by "govern" you mean enslave.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 5:59am

          Re: Re:

          "Yes, if by "govern" you mean enslave."

          There are far too many EU commissioners with that on their specific agenda for comfort. And has been ever since the EU took the ugly turn from the "four freedoms" into "full european unification".

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    • identicon
      David, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:28am

      When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

      Who keeps me from composing some poem in the comment section and then suing the site for publishing my content without my permission? Since the site is responsible for publishing copyrighted content I upload in violation of my user agreement, why should that be different when I created that content in the first place?

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      • icon
        XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:31am

        Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

        If you publish your own works, at your own free will, then there is an implied licence in that you've uploaded it yourself, otherwise it would be a honeypot and I am sure there are laws against that.

        Not EU based but I am sure that's one of the things that Prenda got caught up in when they uploaded the original file to create a honeypot to start there extortion business.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:45am

        Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

        Maybe we will see some more thuggish EULAs, "hereby posting on this site you relinquish all copyright to us, no takebacks!!" Although perhaps a forcing into posting under creative commons wouldn't be so bad, completely stomping the entire give-me-copyright-or-give-me-death crowd into a puddle of quivering jelly

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        • icon
          XcOM987 (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:10am

          Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

          90% of the time, the sections giving over licence to the item or post is simple there to allow them to store said post/item/upload or whatever it may be, most of the time there is nothing nefarious behind it, it's just them trying to protect themselves from things like these laws.

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          • icon
            Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:42am

            Re: Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

            A big problem is regardless of who actually owns the copyright or who created it, or who uploaded it, when some MAFFIAA member comes along and says it's theirs, not yours and not the platforms, the cost of going into court and fighting is untenable.

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        • identicon
          David, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:04am

          Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

          Maybe we will see some more thuggish EULAs It doesn't matter if it is the site rather than the user who is responsible for heeding copyright of uploaded materials. Obviously it is also the site that is responsible for me uploading my own material and redistributing it without license.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:51pm

          Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

          What is wrong with wanting to protect what you create? If you want to steal by copying to use for your commercial personal wealth, you don't have that right. Talk to me first or talk to me later.. that will make it easy or hard on you. You choose.

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      • icon
        Thad (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:36am

        Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

        Who keeps me from composing some poem in the comment section and then suing the site for publishing my content without my permission?

        Nobody will keep you from doing that, but you might want to ask Paul Hansmeier how effective it is as a litigation strategy.

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        • identicon
          David, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:21pm

          Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

          He didn't have article 13 at his disposal.

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          • icon
            Thad (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:53pm

            Re: Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I upload...

            And precisely how is that relevant?

            If the rightsholder is the person who posts the content, then he's granting permission for that content to be posted.

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            • icon
              Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:00am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: When the site becomes liable for content I uploa

              "If the rightsholder is the person who posts the content, then he's granting permission for that content to be posted."

              According to US laws and possibly the US DMCA.

              Nothing in the EU to present that view, as far as I know.

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    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:37am

      This is absolute hysteria. Techdirt could even become a VIDEO blog (why does Mike hide behind print when video is available?) on YouTube, be monetized, and Google would take care of compliance issues (which won't bother them because of revenue from people like Mike). I doubt he'd even have to stop EU users from visiting because he's based in the US.

      The user agreement for this and other sites should give the platforms the ability to sue users who infringe as they harm the site.

      I can still publish without a problem under this law but I don't do UGC.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:50am

        Re:

        I can still publish without a problem under this law but I don't do UGC.

        If you do not publish content that you generate, whose content are you publishing?

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:13am

          Re: Re:

          I publish for those who want to find the work. Sometimes it's free, sometimes it has a tag. My main income is from advertising and patronage, with some sales. The e-book market is crap, basically hourly labor for authors who want to promote. Video is the future of high-income internet sites.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:00am

        Re: "I don't do UGC."

        I think you do. Pay me, or prove you didn't.

        why does Mike hide behind print when video is available?

        Because Youtube has its own problems. He does show up there, because he talks about this stuff in real life too.

        (Anonymous status fully intended for all aspects of this comment)

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:13am

        Re:

        This is absolute hysteria.

        Not really. The internet is a technical system with certain set rules on how it works that can't be changed. These bills fly in the face of those rules and how the internet works. Meaning: "this will break the internet", at least in the EU.

        Techdirt could even become a VIDEO blog...

        What does that have to do with anything?

        on YouTube, be monetized, and Google would take care of compliance issues

        But see, that's the point. Google shouldn't take care of the compliance issues because they aren't the responsible party. Mike would be the one who would potentially violating the law, not Google. That's the whole point of this law, it shifts liability away from the ACTUAL RESPONSIBLE PARTIES on to an intermediate third party who didn't actually do anything wrong. It's all just a money game. Instead of going after actual responsible parties, they have decided to go after innocent parties, solely because they are easier to find and extort money from.

        why does Mike hide behind print when video is available?

        Huh? So you're saying any printed material is just made by a bunch of cowards? Wow, way to insult the book and newspaper authors of the world.

        I doubt he'd even have to stop EU users from visiting because he's based in the US.

        Now this is a valid question. Why would a US based site have to comply with laws in a different country when there is no legal/physical presence in said other country?

        The user agreement for this and other sites should give the platforms the ability to sue users who infringe as they harm the site.

        They can and do. But that's not what A11 and A13 are about now, are they? They are all about making the sites 100% liable for anything their user base does.

        I can still publish without a problem under this law

        True. But you better make sure you don't use any content from any other site/author. According to the text of the bills, even a few words, maybe a quote is enough to land you in hot water.

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        • identicon
          Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 11:58pm

          Re: Re:

          ..google shouldn't take care of the compliance issues because they are not the responsible party.. Buddy, you said a mouthfull!

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          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 18 Feb 2019 @ 1:15pm

            Re: Re: Re:

            Really?

            I thought used fairly simple, common words, the longest one being only 4 syllables. My apologies that I did not speak at a first grade vocabulary level.

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      • icon
        Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:22am

        why does Mike hide behind print when video is available?

        What reason keeps you from doing it, Mr. Hyper-Successful Author?

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    • identicon
      Sok Puppette, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:46am

      It would be easy to work around that and make it unenforceable... in a truly decentralized system using open protocols with multiple independent implementations. On the other hand, systems structured as feifdoms, like YouTube, Facebook, etc, would be seriously burdened and maybe destroyed.

      So with any luck we'll get a good outcome for all the wrong reasons.

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      icon
      ysth (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:15am

      EU Move To Fundamentally Change The Internet from Open to Closed

      Despite the fact that even the staunchest supporters of Article 13 were asking for it to be dropped from the final version of the EU Copyright Directive, that didn't happen. In the final trilogue negotiations between the EU Council, the EU Commission and the EU Parliament, it appears that the agreed upon "compromise" is basically as bad as we feared. It will fundamentally change the entire nature of the internet. And not in a good way. As we recently discussed, the only way this makes sense is if the goal is to have the law be so bad that big internet companies feel forced to pay their way out of it.

      And it appears that's what we've got. MEP Julia Reda's summary of the final deal highlights many of the problems with both Articles 11 and 13. Here's the mess with Article 13:

      Commercial sites and apps where users can post material must make “best efforts” to preemptively buy licences for anything that users may possibly upload – that is: all copyrighted content in the world. An impossible feat. In addition, all but very few sites (those both tiny and very new) will need to do everything in their power to prevent anything from ever going online that may be an unauthorised copy of a work that a rightsholder has pointed out to the platform. They will have no choice but to deploy upload filters, which are by their nature both expensive and error-prone. Should a court ever find their licensing or filtering efforts not fierce enough, sites are directly liable for infringements as if they had committed them themselves. This massive threat will lead platforms to over-comply with these rules to stay on the safe side, further worsening the impact on our freedom of speech.

      And with Article 11:

      The final version of this extra copyright for news sites closely resembles the version that already failed in Germany – only this time not limited to search engines and news aggregators, meaning it will do damage to a lot more websites. Reproducing more than “single words or very short extracts” of news stories will require a licence. That will likely cover many of the snippets commonly shown alongside links today in order to give you an idea of what they lead to. We will have to wait and see how courts interpret what “very short” means in practice – until then, hyperlinking (with snippets) will be mired in legal uncertainty. No exceptions are made even for services run by individuals, small companies or non-profits, which probably includes any monetised blogs or websites.

      If this becomes law, I'm not sure Techdirt can continue publishing in the EU. At the very least, it will require us to spend a large sum of money on lawyers to determine what our liability risk is -- to the point that it might just not be worth it at all. Article 13 makes a commenting system untenable, as we simply cannot setup a filter that will block people from uploading copyright-covered content. Article 11 potentially makes our posts untenable, since we frequently quote other news sites in order to comment on them (as we do above).

      This is, of course, the desire of those supporting both bills. It is not just to close the (made up, mythical) "value gap." It is to fundamentally change the internet away from an open system of communications -- one that anyone can use to bypass traditional gatekeepers, to a closed "broadcast" system, in which key legacy gatekeepers control access to the public, via a complicated set of licenses that strip all of the benefits and profits from the system.

      Not only will this do great harm to the general public's ability to communicate freely over the internet, it will do massive harm to artists and creators -- especially more independent ones, who will be effectively blocked from using these platforms to connect directly with their fans. Rather they will be required to go through "licensed" intermediaries, who will demand a huge cut of any money. In other words, it's a return to the pre-internet days, where if you wanted to become a professional creator, your only options were to sign away all your rights to giant conglomerate record labels/studios/publishers.

      It is incredible -- and incredibly disappointing -- that the EU is moving towards bringing back such a world, but that is what the latest agreement means.

      There is still a chance to stop this from becoming law, though it will take a lot of effort. As Reda explains:

      We can still stop this law The Parliament and Council negotiators who agreed on the final text now return to their institutions seeking approval of the result. If it passes both votes unchanged, it becomes EU law, which member states are forced to implement into national law. In both bodies, there is resistance. The Parliament’s process starts with the approval by the Legal Affairs Committee – which is likely to be given on Monday, February 18. Next, at a date to be announced, the EU member state governments will vote in the Council. The law can be stopped here either by 13 member state governments or by any number of governments who together represent 35% of the EU population (calculator). Last time, 8 countries representing 27% of the population were opposed. Either a large country like Germany or several small ones would need to change their minds: This is the less likely way to stop it. Our best bet: The final vote in the plenary of the European Parliament, when all 751 MEPs, directly elected to represent the people, have a vote. This will take place either between March 25 and 28, on April 4 or between April 15 and 18. We’ve already demonstrated last July that a majority against a bad copyright proposal is achievable. The plenary can vote to kill the bill – or to make changes, like removing Articles 11 and 13. In the latter case, it’s up to the Council to decide whether to accept these changes (the Directive then becomes law without these articles) or to shelve the project until after the EU elections in May, which will reshuffle all the cards.

      If you're an EU citizen, this next bit is important. Now is the time to start speaking up:

      This is where you come in The final Parliament vote will happen mere weeks before the EU elections. Most MEPs – and certainly all parties – are going to be seeking reelection. Articles 11 and 13 will be defeated if enough voters make these issues relevant to the campaigns. (Here’s how to vote in the EU elections – change the language to one of your country’s official ones for specific information) It is up to you to make clear to your representatives: Their vote on whether to break the internet with Articles 11 and 13 will make or break your vote in the EU elections. Be insistent – but please always stay polite. Look up your representatives’ voting behavior at SaveYourInternet.eu Call or visit your MEPs’ offices (in Brussels, Strasbourg or their local constituency) Visit campaign and party events and bring up the topic Sign the record-breaking petition and spread the word, if you haven’t yet Together, we can still stop this law.

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    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:28am

      Dang - looks like Audible Magic is a private company.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      Peter (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 7:45am

      After the stunning success of SOPA, EU-Regulation was inevitable

      SOPA convinced the Tech-Industry to open their wallets and spend insane amounts of money lobbying Congress.

      Now, EU-officials want their share of the cake, too.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      David, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:08am

      Easy fix.

      Article 13 makes a commenting system untenable, as we simply cannot setup a filter that will block people from uploading copyright-covered content.

      Just treat user replies as search terms into a corpus of all sentences in works known to be in the public domain. The user can then mark the sentence best matching their sentiment and you republish that.

      Is "me too" still under copyright?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        Stephen T. Stone (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:29am

        Re: Easy fix.

        That's a cute idea, but it still runs into the same problem as a blacklist filter would have: The costs of such a system could only ever be paid by a company such as Google.

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        • icon
          MichaelG (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:37pm

          Re: Re: Easy fix.

          So why wouldn't Google offer content filtering as a service and make even more money?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:05am

            Re: Re: Re: Easy fix.

            "So why wouldn't Google offer content filtering as a service and make even more money?"

            They probably will, which is why youtube has presented an ambiguous stance on article 13.

            However, Youtube knows full well that after a filter sufficiently trigger-happy to satisfy article 13 is implemented, youtube is deader than it was when GEMA was all over it in Germany. It won't really cost them anything not to geoblock, as long as any youtube visitor is met by the "smiley sad-face" on 3 out of 4 videos.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:51am

        Re: Easy fix.

        And you put together two such sentences that are not together in public domain works, but are together in a work still under copyright, and bam infringement, give us all of your money.

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    • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
      identicon
      Nate P Cilver, 14 Feb 2019 @ 8:40am

      Brexit Circle Jerk

      I see we essentially have a Brexit Circle Jerk here. The bigots on Techdirt are using this issue as a way to undermine the magnificent European Union.

      For those of us who support justice and equality we need to support our diverse brothers and sisters in the EU and let the haters know we will not tolerate their attacks on the democratically elected officials that run the EU.

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    • identicon
      Glenn, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:17am

      If the EU doesn't want to use the Internet, then they're welcome to leave. (Don't let the door hit you on the way out... or, do--maybe it'll knock some sense into them; they don't seem to have any now.)

      I see no need to fuck up the global Internet due to some backwater assholes thinking they own everything.

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      identicon
      Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:39am

      You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creators.

      Gee, this TOO has turned out as I expected, not just that it'll pass, but to put in place what I wish to hamper and punish content thieves.

      Seems that MOST legslators agree with me: no one has any real substantive right to upload someone else's content.

      By the way, Masnick, your last big rant at me involving the similarly out-dated and wrong-headed protections of Section 230 is now proven to be exactly just ranting.

      When US legislators focus on the actuality of what Section 230 enables -- and that it's being used by corporations to stilfe the very free speech that it was intended to promote -- THEN that'll be changed.

      I've won on this topic, and will again when Section 230 is changed or over-ridden or clarified.

      And you'll be WRONG FOREVER, Masnick.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:43am

        Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creators.

        I've won on this topic

        You know how many times I have called you out on your bullshit, I have won every one of those arguments against you!!!!

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
          identicon
          Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:47am

          Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creator

          You know how many times I have called you out on your bullshit, I have won every one of those arguments against you!!!!

          Really? You're right that I go on without noticing!

          Kid, it doesn't even matter that you think you won, or even if you did! Because the people who make laws agree with ME, as this very piece proves.

          You pirates will be hampered and eventually locked up if can't keep your paws off other people's content.

          Oh, and by the way, Mr Winner: why not at least state your "account" name and claim victory?

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 9:57am

            Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting cre

            Oh, and by the way, Mr Winner: why not at least state your "account" name and claim victory?

            Why don't you, Mr. Winner?

            I mean, literally anyone can do what you do. Guess what, Mr. Never The Same Name twice, I've won!

            I've said it to be so, so clearly it is so. I am the winner, forever and ever, and you will always be wrong! Always! You will never be right ever!

            Let's put it another way. The people behind Article 13 may agree with you. That just means they also wrong. That just means they are also liars. That just means they are also extortionists. You throw your hat in with them, that means you are a terrible person, just as they are.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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              identicon
              Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:06am

              Re: Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting

              Oh, and by the way, Mr Winner: why not at least state your "account" name and claim victory?

              Why don't you, Mr. Winner?

              Er, I'm not "Mr Winner".

              But I'll assume you want me to use a REAL name so that you can better attack me, and that's WHY I don't, silly. Anyone giving personal details in this cesspit is a fool.

              Now, you are TOTALLY OFF-TOPIC, so I know you're a true TD fanboy -- a rather recent screen name, always supportive of the site and attackive of any dissent, so probably yet another like "Gary" actually run by Timothy Geigner, aka "Dark Helmet", whom Masnick dubbed "Techdirt's comment enforcer", as that's certainly what you're doing here, instead of ON-TOPIC substance.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:07am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protec

                Nah, you're Mr. Winner now.

                So, Mr. Winner, you can ask for others to reveal themselves, but won't do it yourself?

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it
                  identicon
                  Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:09am

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to pr

                  Nah, you're Mr. Winner now.

                  So, Mr. Winner, you can ask for others to reveal themselves, but won't do it yourself?

                  Oooh, burn! Must be "A Stephen Stone" again.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:12am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts t

                    So, you can ask for others to reveal themselves, but won't do it yourself? I guess you're a hypocrite in addition to a stone-deaf fool.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:42pm

                    Re: How was you involuntary 3 day vacation?

                    Bro you get beaten like a rented red headed step mule on the regular round here.

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                    • icon
                      Scary Devil Monastery (profile), 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:07am

                      Re: Re: How was you involuntary 3 day vacation?

                      I think good old Bobmail gets his rocks off on self-inflicted humiliation.

                      I'm not one to judge but I still believe he should take that kink of his elsewhere.

                      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • icon
            Gwiz (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:05am

            Re: Re: Re:

            Really? You're right that I go on without noticing!

            Yeah, we get it. Your mind is made up and you don't want be confused with actual facts.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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              identicon
              Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:08am

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              Alread provided an answer for you, sonny:

              Kid, it doesn't even matter that you think you won, or even if you did! Because the people who make laws agree with ME, as this very piece proves.

              Thanks for showing all you've got is pointless sniping.

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:14am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                All you've got are baseless assertions, Kid. Thanks for playing. I'll see you in the jail cell when we all get placed in prison for failing to pay all our money to the entertainment industries. Won't that be fun.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • icon
                Gwiz (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:38am

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Thanks for showing all you've got is pointless sniping.

                I'm not sure I would consider it "pointless". The point is usually to display your faulty logic, incorrect facts or hypocrisy and with you it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:09am

        Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creators.

        This doesn't punish the uploaders. It punishes the platforms. And you're far too stupid to understand the difference.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

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          identicon
          Terry Unterdrucker-Heimholzernmitshoenenfliegebit, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:11am

          Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creator

          This doesn't punish the uploaders. It punishes the platforms. And you're far too stupid to understand the difference.

          It's a good point -- though didn't need clarifying.

          Give it time, "AC", and "uploaders" and "downloaders" plus site owners will ALL be put in jail where belong for STEALING CONTENT.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:12am

            Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting cre

            I'll see you in jail, then, Mr. Winner. We can share a cell together.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:26am

            Re: Re: Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting cre

            So according to your exact words then, every single user of the internet should be put in jail. And you wonder why nobody listens to a word you say.

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:37am

        Re: You mean change from pirate thefts to protecting creators.

        put in place what I wish to hamper and punish content thieves.

        As others have pointed out, this will not do anything to hamper and punish actual thieves. It will only hamper and punish legitimate sites on the internet.

        Seems that MOST legslators agree with me: no one has any real substantive right to upload someone else's content.

        Agreeing with you doesn't make them right. Besides, if the owner of said content says it's ok to upload their content, then isn't that a realy substantive right to upload someone else's content? And yes, people do give out this right.

        your last big rant at me involving the similarly out-dated and wrong-headed protections of Section 230 is now proven to be exactly just ranting.

        Oh? I wasn't aware EU laws had any bearing on US laws. You might want to stop commenting while high and/or drunk.

        When US legislators focus on the actuality of what Section 230 enables

        Websites where users are held accountable for their own content and actions instead of blaming people and sites who had nothing to do with it.

        that it's being used by corporations to stilfe the very free speech that it was intended to promote

        Try enabling said free speech. The only "free speech" it's stifling is libelous and defamatory accusations against people and sites who didn't actually do the things they are accused of.

        THEN that'll be changed

        Well, actually, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do and everyone seems to agree it's working well except you and legacy entertainment industries. So that will be never?

        I've won on this topic

        You're definition of winning is a bit odd then. If by winning you mean the legislation got passed? Well, we're not there yet. If by winning you mean you got some politicians to agree with you? Yeah sure. But the fallout from actually passing and enforcing this legislation is going to make the entire world wonder why the hell anyone ever listened to a word you said. Maybe it's a good thing you stay anonymous.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      CloudedJudgement, 14 Feb 2019 @ 10:37am

      For those in charge of the EU...

      I have only one thing to say about these retarded/idiotic/moronish ideas of yours.

      Fuck EU!!!

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:13pm

      The internet was already broken- any system that allows one company to grow that fast and monopolize, like Google has, is unquestionably broken.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        TFG, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:19pm

        Re:

        Debatable, if you wished to.

        But, if it is broken, we can agree that this all just makes it worse, yes?

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      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:42pm

        Re:

        How is Google a monopoly again?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 12:54pm

        Re:

        If you don't like google, then don't use google, problem solved.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

        • icon
          Thad (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:30pm

          Re: Re:

          Great.

          Now explain to my grandma how to block Google scripts, embeds, fonts, etc. Firewall, NoScript, however you want her to do it; any answer is acceptable as long as my grandma understands it.

          reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

          • identicon
            Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 2:41pm

            Re: Re: Re:

            Which has nothing to do with whether you are forced to use Google's end user services or not. Which you are not.

            reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

            • icon
              Thad (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:03pm

              Re: Re: Re: Re:

              The comment I was responding to said "If you don't like google, then don't use google, problem solved." That was the entire comment. At no point did the poster user the qualifier "end user services".

              reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:11pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                Sorry, my point was that he was referencing not using Google's services such as search, email, youtube, etc... Not the analytics scripts many sites use to enhance their websites or track users or serve up ads. I wouldn't consider any of those "using Google" for end users, and I don't think the AC or anyone else would either.

                Besides that, that still does not make Google a monopoly. No one is forcing any site owner to use Google scripts, embeds, fonts, etc...

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                • icon
                  Thad (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:58pm

                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                  Besides that, that still does not make Google a monopoly. No one is forcing any site owner to use Google scripts, embeds, fonts, etc...

                  The definition of a monopoly isn't "you're forced to use it"; it's "if you wish to use this particular type of service, then this company is your only option".

                  I would argue that Google is, at minimum, a near monopoly in terms of large-scale analytics and advertising, which is the company's primary business.

                  Which I suppose is pretty far afield of the point of the article, and I certainly didn't mean to agree with the whiny-butt who shows up in every article to whine about Section 230.

                  reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

                  • identicon
                    Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 6:36am

                    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                    The definition of a monopoly isn't "you're forced to use it"; it's "if you wish to use this particular type of service, then this company is your only option".

                    Poor wording on my part then. By that I meant there are other options besides Google for those same scripts, etc... Yes they may not be as good as Google but there are other options.

                    I would argue that Google is, at minimum, a near monopoly in terms of large-scale analytics and advertising

                    To be honest I don't know in that specific area. I don't follow the business of large-scale analytics and advertising, but I can't imagine Google is the only player out there. They may be the best player, but it's hard to imagine them being the only one, or even one of a very few.

                    which is the company's primary business.

                    I would debate that. Is it the company's primary source of revenue? Yes. But that's not their primary business. Google's primary business is the consumer products they release such as their search engine, Android, gmail, Chrome, gdocs, etc...

                    reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

              • identicon
                CloudedJudgement, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:43pm

                Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:

                If enough people don't use Google, then all the services and whatnot will fade.

                That will NOT happen until the majority of people choose NOT to use Google.

                reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:04pm

        Re:

        I guess that means that the US and many other governments are broken too?

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • identicon
        CloudedJudgement, 14 Feb 2019 @ 3:26pm

        Uhh - are you mentally challenged?

        Google does NOT have a monopoly, is not monopolistic.

        Google only has as much control or power as we (the people) grant them.

        If the majority of the people in the world didn't want Google to have what sway they do have, they'd stop using their products and the advertising dollars would leave them.

        If you hate Google having the power you think they have, then look at yourself, it's YOUR fault because you (and billions like you) choose Google.

        Google only dominates because it is The Will of the People that they do so.

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • icon
      ECA (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:13pm

      well...this is fun

      "Commercial sites and apps where users can post material must make “best efforts” to preemptively buy licences for anything that users may possibly upload –"

      Commercial? And now comes 1 Corp that gives license to make snippets.. WOW, sounds like the RIAA/MPAA, and every other agency in the USA that License Jukeboxes..

      Reading thru... we could forget the WWW and HTTP.. techdirt.com works..but not www.techdirt.com Its that little preview window they seem to be bitching about.

      I also think this will hurt everyone, NOT just newspapers. Music creators, Game developers.. Try to advert for the people WHO WANT it to spread.

      But news papers have not gotten the BIG HINT... The small agencies wont get anything. as local news isnt 90% of news. Its the Big guys that do international news that will get the money...and Even the Big guys can CRAP on the little guys now.. The little guys didnt FIND the news and publish it...The little guys will now PAY MORE..

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

      • icon
        ECA (profile), 14 Feb 2019 @ 1:19pm

        Re: well...this is fun

        let me add.... That NOW anyone in the world can ABUSE the EU.. just to link to an article from Anywhere in the world..

        I can see Google/MSN getting license direct from the big guys..and being able to be the MAJOR aggregator.. Insted of sharing the news, it now becomes NEWS for money..and you will need to goto the big corps to find it.

        Something funny about this tho..the ISP's trying to develop there OWN systems and news agencies..Privatizing NEWS..

        reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 14 Feb 2019 @ 6:40pm

      If you are plwnning to travel to Europe, just set up your own vpn server on your home computer before you go, so you can bypass geo fencing that is sure to come in.

      Doing thie using your own home computer will make ir look like you are coming from your house in the usa or whatever and nobody will be the wiser. And bypasssing geo fencing does break any laws in the usa or any EU country.

      When i had an online radio station, and travelled the world, I would do this so that I could access my SiriusXM and iHeart subscriptions while travelling abroad. Contary to what some might say, I did not break any US laws doing this, nor the laws of just about any country I travelled to.

      What we used to do is similar to what BeoutQ did, only it was on radio and no video, going to events and broadcasting on internet radio, briadcasting a lot of tennis and figure skating mostly.

      Using a VPN to bypass geoblocking to listen to iHeart or SiriusXM did not break either US law or the laws of any country I travelled to except Qatar.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 12:25am

      What's Europe's actual perspective?

      To hear the usual trolls, Europe is a continent that could never deliver desirable content, which is why the most consumed products are Hollywood and American. This is the rationale they use to rubbish claims that places with less harsh copyright enforcement have thriving culture, or as a "counterargument" to artists who criticise copyright like Dan Bull.

      Until Google gets involved, of course, then all of a sudden Europe is a realm of untapped potential, troubled artists and creators, just waiting to be let loose if only, oh if only the big evil Google didn't exist on their shores.

      Europe could be nuked from orbit tomorrow and the copyright knuckleheads would still be trying to sell them the new blockbuster sequel. Or trying to sue their corpses. Whichever pays more. Probably the latter, given the scourge of Prenda-style trolls in Sweden.

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

    • identicon
      Anonymous Coward, 15 Feb 2019 @ 7:41am

      how to tell big companies about this to amplify the impact on parliament to stop article 13, 11 ?

      reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]


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