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by Mike Masnick

Thu, Oct 6th 2011 1:01pm

Filed Under:
arthur olson, copyright, data, facts, paul eggert, timezones

Companies:
astrolabe

Permalink.

Astrolabe Claims It Holds Copyright On Timezone Data; Sues Maintainers Of Public Timezone Database

from the you-can't-copyright-facts dept

Wow! Via Slashdot, we discover that a company named Astrolabe, which appears to make astrology software, has ridiculously decided to sue the maintainers of the timezone database that nearly every Unix and Linux platform uses to set clocks to local time. Astrolabe apparently bought the rights to the database from The American Atlas, which is cited as a source in the timezone database. But... there's a problem: you can't copyright facts. And it's difficult to see how this information is anything but factual. We have the full legal filing embedded below, but the best analysis comes from The Daily Parker's Dave Braverman who breaks down the legal issues as follows:

Is data about when time zone rules changed throughout history protected under copyright?
If so, who owns it?
If someone owns it, is the Olson database a derivative work under copyright law?
If the Olson database does, in fact, derive from the work in question, is it a fair use?
Just how stupid are these astrologists, anyway?

Of course, I'm pretty sure the answer to question (1) is no, which would answer all the rest of the questions, except for the final one. One assumes that Arthur Olson and Paul Eggert -- the two guys being sued -- will be pretty quick to file for dismissal, and one hopes that a judge tosses this one out quickly. It will also be interesting to see if the NIH and UCLA get involved. Olson works for the NIH and Eggert for UCLA -- and the timezone database is hosted by both organizations. Each of them, easily, could claim sovereign immunity (which may be why they're not included in the suit directly). Still, I can't see this getting very far... and wonder if it's at the level of ridiculousness that Astrolabe's lawyers might face sanctions for bringing such a ridiculous lawsuit.

Braverman, in his writeup, notes that if the case actually does get anywhere, it could create a massive nuisance for anyone who uses Linux. But he also points out how incredibly short-sighted the lawsuit is:

What's even stupider about this lawsuit is that comments in the database encourage people to buy the book. So even if Astrolabe owns the copyright to the facts about time zone rules�a troubling proposition�their republication in the Olson database increases the likelihood that they'll make money off it.

Once again, however, we see copyright holders thinking that you should pay them to advertise their works.

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Reader Comments (rss)

(Flattened / Threaded)

william (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 12:58pm

Let see what the magic eight ball on my iphone says.

1. Don't count on it
2. Better not tell you now
3. My source says no
4. Most likely
5. It is decidedly so

Well, Magic eight ball doesn't lie...
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:22pm

Not just Linux
Wikipedia has a nice list of all software which uses this timezone database. This includes Java, Oracle, Mac OS X...

Given that none of these (which redistribute the database) seems to have been named in the lawsuit, it is possible that these lawyers had no idea what they were messing with.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
hmm (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:29pm

well done!
I say grats to astrolabe's lawyers for wasting a lot of their money so they can't continue with their batshit insane charlatanism (i.e. astrology) which is entirely made up bullshit designed to steal money from the mentall weak and vulnerable.

Every single person who works for Astrolabe is guilty of criminal filthy acts and deserves to be thrown into a tiny pit and forgotten about.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Pseudonym, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:30pm

Won't go anywhere
If The American Atlas contributed data to zone.tab, they did so in full knowledge that Olson et al released it into the public domain.

I'm curious what TAA thinks they sold and Astrolabe thinks they bought. TAA may claim copyright ownership of some text file they have, but it can't be zone.tab because that would be copyfraud. Or they may not claim copyright ownership, but just sold a copy of zone.tab to Astrolabe (which is legit; you can charge money for a work in the public domain) and Astrolabe got stiffed on the deal.

Either way, Olson et al got their copy of TAA's data legitimately and are distributing it legitimately, and any work that you base on it is also legitimate.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:38pm

Wait.. I can see copyright I don't own too!
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
twinkle (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:48pm

Re: well done!
You're a Taurus aren't you?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 1:54pm

"We have the full legal filing embedded below"

You do?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Peter Samuelson, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:00pm

Reading between the lines
The ultimate message Astrolabe is sending us is: if you compile and publish facts, DO NOT CITE YOUR SOURCES. Or they will sue you and waste your time and money.

I do think it's an odd message for a publisher of an almanac to promote. I wonder if they've stopped to think about it.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:20pm

Re:
Found the complaint. It's not good:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/67760407/ASTROLABE-INC-Vs-ARTHUR-DAVID-OLSON-and-PAUL-EGGERT-Comp laint
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:24pm

Legal defense fund?
Any news about a legal defense fund?

Where to send donations...
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:39pm

Paragraph 4 of the complaint says Astrolabe licensed a database, but the thedailyparker article makes it look like zoneinfo might be derived from the book, for whatever that might be worth.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:44pm

Once again the DOJ is absent, neglecting its duties.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
btrussell (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:44pm

Did Astrolabe pay Sir Sandford Fleming?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
houstonspace (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 2:51pm

Magic prediction
Astrolabe will lose this case, for the stars tell me so. So say we all.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:03pm

Re:
You do?

We do now. Somehow forgot to add it.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Larry, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:19pm

Re: Re: well done!
Well done sir. I now need cleaning supplies to wipe my monitor off!
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:28pm

Re:
wait, what?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
streetlight (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:29pm

Remember...
There are more astrologers (and people who believe in astrology) than astronomers (and people who believe in the results of astronomy).
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
harbingerofdoom (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:44pm

i have a feeling astrolabe may need to invest in astroglide once this is done.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 3:44pm

Re: Re:
Copyfraud it is a crime in the US that only the government can initiate proceedings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud

Quote:
Section 506(c) criminalizes fraudulent uses of copyright notices and Section 506(e) punishes knowingly making a false representation of a material fact in the application for copyright registration. Section 512(f) additionally punishes using the safe harbor provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act to remove material the issuer knows is not infringing.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyfraud#cite_note-Copyfraud-NYULR-0
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 4:08pm

Re: Not just Linux
That�s why this case is so fucking stupid.

Even if they�re not directly targeted in the lawsuit, I can see a horde of these groups who use the database descending on the court with amicus briefs.

Open Source has friends. Don�t make those friends angry. You won�t like them when they�re angry.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 4:15pm

Re: Re: Re:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this case meets any of the criteria you referenced.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
someone (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 5:45pm

Re:
I was thinking nearly the same thing, but you did miss the association:

astrolabe
astrolube

I do agree that astrolabe will need lots of astrolube when this is done!
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Marcus, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 5:55pm

Boycott Astrolabe!
These people are bad citizens. Spread the word: we're not buying any astrology software from them until they withdraw their complaint!

Write them and call them. Ask them why they've been naughty. Tell them you're going to tell everybody how bad they've been and use the B word (boycott). Unless they are much more sinister than they appear, they will buckle. Fast.

How do they expect to run an ecommerce site without a global time infrastructure? Duh.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 6:02pm

Re: Remember...
The inferior people who believe in astrology aren't really human: they're primates. Their inadequate brains should be discarded when their organs are harvested for use by members of superior species.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 6:27pm

Re: Boycott Astrolabe!
Or you could just boycott their astrology software because astrology is imaginary.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 7:03pm

Re: Re: Boycott Astrolabe!
Or just not be stupid and not believe in astrology.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 9:21pm

Re: Re: Not just Linux
The incredable Bloatware?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 9:35pm

Re: Re:
He didn't miss the association. Do you know what astroglide is?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
G Thompson (profile), Oct 6th, 2011 @ 9:51pm

Time is just an illusion, Astrology doubly so
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 6th, 2011 @ 10:20pm

Can I use this as an excuse to be late on my term paper?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 7th, 2011 @ 1:50am

Personally, I'm for getting rid of time zones and daylight savings time altogether. Every clock on the planet should show the same time.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Wig, Oct 7th, 2011 @ 2:19am

Ever notice how it's always some obscure company who "just bought patent x or the rights to y" and now "discovers" that some other organization or company "infringes" on whatever it was they bought?

It is never the original company, the one that just sold something, that starts this kind of lawsuit. Probably because they know exactly what they sold and they know there is no case.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
JustMe (profile), Oct 7th, 2011 @ 3:21am

Re: Wig
So true!
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
btrussell (profile), Oct 7th, 2011 @ 3:24am

Re: Re: Re: Not just Linux
Microsoft isn't Open Source. Nor its' friend.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
btrussell (profile), Oct 7th, 2011 @ 3:36am

Re: Remember...
I think the quote you are looking for is:
"There is a sucker born every minute"
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Random832, Oct 7th, 2011 @ 8:22am

"What's even stupider about this lawsuit is that comments in the database encourage people to buy the book" The book isn't the issue, as far as their motive - the existence of a free timezone database is effectively a competitor to _their software_, so they looked for an angle - any angle - to kill it.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 7th, 2011 @ 10:58am

The reaction starts
In a single day, here is what we have so far:
- An alternative mailing list, which already existed, but was mostly inactive.
- A working mirror in another country and someone to maintain the database.
- The next update of the database is already being prepared.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 7th, 2011 @ 12:18pm

agreed all around that this is stupid on the part of Astrolabe. OTOH, Olson and Eggert can't ignore this. They need legal representation. IMO, this would be a perfect job for .... EFF.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
HillBill, Oct 9th, 2011 @ 4:46am

How about all the organisations who use the PTD countersue Astrolabe for their inconvenience because of this?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
HillBill, Oct 9th, 2011 @ 4:46am

How about all the organisations who use the PTD countersue Astrolabe for their inconvenience because of this?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Sebastian Majstorovic, Oct 9th, 2011 @ 9:55am

Set up a mirror!
Well, I think we have to fight this absolute nonsense. If Astrolabe prevailed in this case, which they will not, because their claim is ridicoulous, douchebag companies all around the world would try to do the same thing with other opensource projects.

If you want to set up a mirror yourself, to help spread around the data all over the world, have a look here:
http://github.com/canbuffi/tzmirror
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, Oct 10th, 2011 @ 9:40am

If they did it its because the stars say its ok
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Astrology Software, Oct 11th, 2011 @ 8:54pm

Astrolabe suit due to competition over Terran Atlas
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2011-October/007976.html
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
btrussell (profile), Oct 16th, 2011 @ 4:16pm

Time zone database has new home after lawsuit
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2011/10/16/8350714-time-zone-database-has-new-home-after-laws uit
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Tim Ransom, Nov 15th, 2011 @ 3:19pm

Apparently I have a contrary view about this. In my opinion, Astrolabe has a solid and justifiable case, and I pray they win.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
astrologos (profile), Dec 5th, 2011 @ 8:24pm

Astrolabe thinks it can own facts ?
If Astrolabe thinks it can own facts and then sue anyone who uses them, they're in for a rude awakening.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Chris, Jan 13th, 2012 @ 7:00pm

OK, I get that everyone wants to bash Astrolabe because they don't like astrology. But presumably there's a bigger issue here. If "facts" can't be copyrighted, that means I can photocopy and distribute any non-fiction work without fear of prosecution, right?

Or does lack of copyright protection only work if it's related to something you don't agree with like astrology?
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
btrussell (profile), Jan 14th, 2012 @ 1:41am

Re:
"Astrolabe Claims It Holds Copyright On Timezone Data; Sues Maintainers Of Public Timezone Database"

This isn't about astrology.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]
Astrolabe, Mar 10th, 2012 @ 9:51pm

This is ridiculous , how can astrolabe calim to hold copyright on Timezone data.

Hope the court dismisses it's stupid claims.
[ reply to this | link to this | view in thread ]

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Astrolabe Claims It Holds Copyright On Timezone Data; Sues Maintainers Of Public Timezone Database

from the you-can't-copyright-facts dept

Reader Comments (rss)

Not just Linux

well done!

Won't go anywhere

Re: well done!

Reading between the lines

Re:

Legal defense fund?

Magic prediction

Re:

Re: Re: well done!

Re:

Remember...

Re: Re:

Re: Not just Linux

Re: Re: Re:

Re:

Boycott Astrolabe!

Re: Remember...

Re: Boycott Astrolabe!

Re: Re: Boycott Astrolabe!

Re: Re: Not just Linux

Re: Re:

Re: Wig

Re: Re: Re: Not just Linux

Re: Remember...

The reaction starts

Set up a mirror!

Astrolabe suit due to competition over Terran Atlas

Astrolabe thinks it can own facts ?

Re:

Add Your Comment

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